Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 09:23:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard L. Goerwitz" Subject: Re: Software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- KWIC and KWOC concordance-generation is one of the easiest programming tasks imaginable, especially for a good text-processing language like Icon. There are, in fact, some sample KWIC generation programs included with the program library distributed with Icon. -Richard Goerwitz U of Chicago ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 09:23:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Howell, Joel" Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers Howdy, I'm not an indexer, just an author who will soon have to index his own book. But, out, of curiosity, I wonder what the reaction is/was among professional indexers to the following entry, noted in a New York Times Book Review, in the 1980, 16th edition of Williams Obstetrics: "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts, 1-1102" Joel Howell U Michigan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 15:10:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Warwick Subject: Re: Low cost software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I've had nothing to contribute on this topic (being unfamiliar with currently available microcomputer indexing software) until the end book on a recently-cataloged-books trucks yelled at me on my way to coffee! We recently cataloged: Fetters, Linda K. A guide to indexing software / by Linda K. Fetters. -- 4th ed. -- [Texas] : American Society of Indexers, c1992. 39 p. ; 28 cm. LCCN 92-2756 ISBN 0-936547-15-4 : $15.00 Z695.9.F44 1992 025.3'0285'536 I haven't read the book and can not affirm the usefulness or detail of the information therein, although it's sitting in front of me now as I write this. Ten products are reviewed (nine for PCs, one for Macs) with what looks like enough information to make decisions about each product. There is also a one page comparison chart of all ten products. The products reviewed (from the contents page) are: Cindex Version 5.1; IndexAid2; Indexer's Assistant; Indexit; INDEXX Professional Version; In>Sort for DOS; In>Sort for the Macintosh; Macrex Version 5; NLCindex; and wINDEX. I hope this information is useful to the original requester. Bob Warwick Rutgers University Libraries ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 15:10:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHIRLEY EDWARDS Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Best laugh I've had all day! Shirley Edwards Indexing Branch National Agricultural Library ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 15:10:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RHADDEN@USGSRESV.BITNET Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The statement "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts, 1-1102" is without doubt humorous, but it is also unprofessional to place inbedded comments into an index. It draws the reader to wonder what had been left out or wrongly mentioned, etc., because the indexer did not agree with the author(s). If the indexer did not agree with either the polictics or medical comclusions of the work, he/she/it should have declined to index it rather than subvert the integrity of someone else's work with political humor. It is difficult for me to understand how anyone would ask for money to index a book, with that kind of comment thrown into the work. lee hadden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 09:16:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Holiday Subject: Info on Indexers and good indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm a librarian doing a small research project on the qualities of good indexers and good indexing. I'm looking for a good recent paper, INDEX-L document, or book chapter that outlines the personal, educational, and professional qualities of good indexers, and what the characteristics are of good indexing. I'm interested in database rather than book indexing. I'm not really looking for indexing standards. I noticed that the Chicago Manual of Style lists characteristics of indexers in its 18th chapter. I've seen a reference to P.Zunde and M.E. Dexter's 1969 paper on "indexing consistency and quality." I was wondering if there is anything similar that is more recent. Thanks for all replies. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 09:17:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers In-Reply-To: <199212090121.AA18233@lamb.sas.com>; from "RHADDEN%USGSRESV.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU" at Dec 8, 92 3:10 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > The statement "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts, 1-1102" is without > doubt humorous, but it is also unprofessional to place inbedded comments > into an index. It draws the reader to wonder what had been left out or > wrongly mentioned, etc., because the indexer did not agree with the author(s). > If the indexer did not agree with either the polictics or medical > comclusions of the work, he/she/it should have declined to index it rather > than subvert the integrity of someone else's work with political humor. > It is difficult for me to understand how anyone would ask for > money to index a book, with that kind of comment thrown into the work. > lee hadden > Lighten up - it's a joke! Isn't it? 8-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 13:35:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Humor in Indexes That raises an interesting question: When is humor appropriate in an index? I edited a handbook for Cornell undergraduates, which had a very light tone-lots of fun graphics and sidebars. When it came time for me to create an index, I decided to include entries (since space was not a real problem) meant to amuse someone browsing through the index. They were, of course, real entries pointing to real things in the handbook, but they weren't things the reader would actually be looking for in the index. Have any of you done that sort of thing? I agree that politically motivated entries that run counter to the author's agenda are a no-no. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 13:37:25 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virgil P Diodato" Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree that indexers should not subvert the integrity of the book, but I think this case is an example of an author displaying a sense of humor (or a sense of something) in his own index. The author probably was making a self-deprecating gesture. A number of authors like to include clever index entries in their own works. Former Librarian of Congress Daniel J Boorstin places entries in his works for the names of his children and grandchildren (even though they are not mentioned in the books). My favorite example of author index-humor is in A Mathematical Introduction to Logic (by Enderton), who has the entry: self-referential sentences, 227, 294 This entry occurs on page 294 of the text! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 09:28:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Marilyn J. Rowland" Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I find the "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts" entry humorous, but inappropriate if it was actually included in the index. How was this entry discussed in the review of the book. As to humorous entries in indexes, I have sometimes felt moved to include them, though I never have--until I was asked to include some by the author. His feeling was that "every index should have a few jokes in it." The book was a technical computer reference manual, and the "jokes" he wanted included were the names of his children and items which were obscure to me. I put them in (but did not add any jokes of my own). I imagine his children were pleased, but I never heard anything further and do not know if these jokes resulted in confused readers or not. Marilyn Rowland Duxbury, Massachusetts ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 09:37:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers Reply to: RE>> Irreverent indexers Ah, but that is not a sentence. Still, a good joke. [Moderator's note: this comment is in reply to Virgil Diodato's message-- repeated here] I agree that indexers should not subvert the integrity of the book, but I think this case is an example of an author displaying a sense of humor (or a sense of something) in his own index. The author probably was making a self-deprecating gesture. A number of authors like to include clever index entries in their own works. Former Librarian of Congress Daniel J Boorstin places entries in his works for the names of his children and grandchildren (even though they are not mentioned in the books). My favorite example of author index-humor is in A Mathematical Introduction to Logic (by Enderton), who has the entry: self-referential sentences, 227, 294 This entry occurs on page 294 of the text! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 09:42:10 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JULIUS ARIAIL Subject: Indexer's Humor ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As a fellow academic administrator and sometime indexer, I can appreciate this paragraph in the author's preface to G.A. Wells, _Did Jesus Exist_ (Pemberton: London, 1975): I compiled the indexes at some of the numerous boring committee meetings with which universities and colleges today contrive to waste the time of their staffs. There must have been at least one interesting meeting, for the author includes a note at the beginning of the index that "Chapter 9 is only partially indexed." Julius Ariail, Director of Libraries Georgia Southern University solibja@gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu Statesboro, Georgia 30460 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 09:42:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KROVETZ@cs.umass.EDU Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does anyone have other examples of funny index entries? I know that the Art of Computer Programming (by Donald Knuth) has a few. Bob krovetz@cs.umass.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:46:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephen Elliott 705-748-1565 Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At the risk of insulting those indexers' who have a well-thumbed copy on their work-desk, I thought it only fair to point out that there is a chapter called "Humour in Indexing" in G. Norman Knight's *Indexing, the art of: A guide to the indexing of books and periodicals*. The examples are perhaps a bit dry compared to the ones posted to this list, but you will also find many classic humourous index entries here. One picked at random: Chase, wild goose. *See* Von Kluck Goose chase, wild. *See* Kluck, Von Kluck, von. *See* Von Kluck Von Kluck. *See* Kluck, von Wild goose chase. *See* Kluck, von One I thought was in this chapter which I can't find is the story of the precocious young girl who snuck a card into her father's index on Ornithology in the British Isles. Her entry read: Birds. 1-450 *passim*. truly, yours Stephen Elliott selliott@trentu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:47:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers In-Reply-To: <199212101438.AA22087@lamb.sas.com>; from "Marilyn J. Rowland" at Dec 10, 92 9:28 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I find the "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts" entry humorous, but > inappropriate if it was actually included in the index. How was this entry > discussed in the review of the book. > As to humorous entries in indexes, I have sometimes felt moved to include > them, though I never have--until I was asked to include some by the author. > His feeling was that "every index should have a few jokes in it." The book > was a technical computer reference manual, and the "jokes" he wanted > included were the names of his children and items which were obscure to me. > I put them in (but did not add any jokes of my own). I imagine his children > were pleased, but I never heard anything further and do not know if these > jokes resulted in confused readers or not. > > Marilyn Rowland > Duxbury, Massachusetts > Obviously, I thought the original posting was just a bit of indexing humor. Did the entry actually appear in a book? I rather agree with Marilyn. If I was working directly with an author, and that author asked me to put in "joke" entries, I would do it. But I wouldn't like it. I think those entries could confuse readers, and I want my index to be as clear as possible. Joan <-------------------------------> | Joan Stout | | Technical Writer -----------------> and freelance indexer | sasjcs@unx.sas.com | | SAS Institute, Inc. | | Cary, NC 919 677-8000 | <-------------------------------> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:47:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers In-Reply-To: <199212101453.AA22661@lamb.sas.com>; from "KROVETZ@cs.umass.EDU" at Dec 10, 92 9:42 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Does anyone have other examples of funny index entries? I know that the > Art of Computer Programming (by Donald Knuth) has a few. > > Bob > > krovetz@cs.umass.edu One of Dave Barry's humor books has a hilarious index. However, it has no "real" entries - they're all jokes. My friend and mentor Max Franke indexed one of Matt Groening's books (cartoonist and creator of "The Simpsons"). I'll have to ask Max if he included any humorous entries. I know he worked closely with the author. Joan Stout ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:48:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Phil Rider Subject: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Does anyone have other examples of funny index entries? I know that the >Art of Computer Programming (by Donald Knuth) has a few. > >Bob > >krovetz@cs.umass.edu The best ones I know are in Dave Barry's books: Babies and Other Hazards of Sex; Claw Your Way to the Top; Homes and Other Black Holes; etc. Phil Rider a10prr1@niu.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:14:19 ECT Reply-To: Erik Naggum Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erik Naggum Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers In-Reply-To: <01GS5DIQG8XE001ON6@TRENTU.CA> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- While on the topic of humorous index entries, one of my favorites is from "SGML: the user's guide to ISO 8879" by Joan M. Smith and Robert Stutely, which contains the following index entries: CFG /see/ Goldfarb, Dr Charles F Editor of ISO 8879, /see/ obfuscatory Goldfarb, Dr Charles F /see/ Editor of ISO 8879 obfuscatory /see/ CFG The book's dedication reads: "To Charles, but for whom this book would have been unnecessary". The inside scoop here is that Charles Goldfarb refused to include an index in the standard, so Joan Smith and Robert Stutely took it upon themselves to publish one, with additional material. Also, the text in the standard lends legitimacy to the index entry for obfuscatory. Best regards, -- Erik Naggum ISO 8879 SGML +47 295 0313 ISO 10744 HyTime ISO 9899 C Memento, terrigena ISO 10646 UCS Memento, vita brevis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:14:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Irreverent Entries in Indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From the discussion so far, I see that others agree with comments I sent directly to the originator of this topic: to wit, that we appreciate a humorous but relevant entry, but deplore the humorous but inappropriate ones. I would like to add that several years ago, I had the pleasure of enteing the following entry in an index: Society for the Suppression of Baby- Talk among Women, 236 This appreared in Roger A. Bruns' THE DAMNDEST RADICAL: THE LIFE AND WORLD OF BEN REITMAN, CHICAGO'S CELEBRATED SOCIAL REFORMER, HOBO KING, AND WHOREHOUSE PHYSICIAN, published by the University of Illinois Press in 1987. Apparently the Society was fictitious, but the referemce in the text was genuine. Barbara E. Cohen Professional indexer (becohen@well.sf.ca.us) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:15:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- re: Birds, 1-450 *passim* I think the qualifier was left off, Birds, for the, 1-450*passim* -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:15:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cammie Donaldson Subject: Thesaurus Construction/Searching Tools ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Greetings - I am a software developer with interest in information retrieval topics such as indexing. My company, Software Productivity Solutions, Inc., has submitted a proposal to the U.S. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) for the development of a set of software applications for building, editing, browsing, and using as a search enhancement, information retrieval thesauri. The tools would be developed for Unix workstations executing in the X Window/Motif environment, with possible porting to other windowing environments such as Windows, Macintosh, OpenLook, etc. The tools will provide the following general capabilities: * merging of existing thesauri (we will be using DTIC, NTIS Computer Science, and other microthesauri for computer science topics, however the tools are information domain independent) * automatic indexing of documents using thesaurus terms (scans document for presence of thesaurus terms and indexes appropriately) * "relevant" term collection (uses statistical techniques to derive lists of potential index terms) * browsing and editing of thesaurus * query enhancement using the thesaurus (we will build a message-based communications mechanism between thesaurus and our own library system product; this could possibly be rehosted so that thesauri could communicate with other retrieval systems) We have built a retrieval system, InQuisiX, for use primarily within the "software reuse" marketplace. This is an area of software engineering concerned with the construction, organization, and adaptation of reusable software parts, generally within a particular application domain. The thesaurus work is being developed for software reuse purposes also; however, we would like to know if there is interest in such tools from a more general purpose perspective. Are there indexers who need tools such as these to build special purpose thesauri? I am a member of ASI; I have read all the major thesaurus works (Aitchison, etc.); and I read all the email on this list. I have obtained documentation on Liu Palmer's tool. I thank you for your time and any information/questions that you may have. Ms. Cameron Donaldson Software Productivity Solutions, Inc. 122 4th Avenue Indialantic, FL 32903 407-984-3370 cmd@sps.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:16:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephen Elliott 705-748-1565 Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I can't remember which Gary Larson book it is, but the index consists only of letters with no entries until you get to the letter T - giving this effect: ... P Q R S T The one about the accountant The one about the banker The one about the chemist ... U V ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:17:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAYLORVAISEY@medac.med.utoronto.ca Subject: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I laughed so hard when I first read a Gary Larson index that my kids thought that this time I had lost it for sure. You must read the index to Wiener Dog Art: a Far Side Collection (1990). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:18:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PAULA PRESLEY Subject: Indexer's Humor In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 10 DEC 1992 08:44:11 EST ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ...the temptation is always there, to insert something humorous in an index. Both my attempts at this grew out of frustration. A few years ago, while typesetting a c.100 pg. Historians of Early Modern Europe directory (lists names, addresses, personal info, publications of scholars), while I was in the "N's" the output equipment gave us lots of headaches. So, I inserted an entry for "Newman, Alfred E." and made up "personal information" to suit the situation. The next year, one scholar from Germany and one from Italy responded by including information (in Latin) indicating they had co-published with "Newman, Alfred E.") Encouraged, I continued the entry for a few more years, with cryptic messages. Finally, when too many folks were "on to" it, I reincarnated him into "Newoman, Alfreda E.", and then the next year we had an obituary for the entry. (I have since changed the title of the publication of "Scholars of Early Modern Studies"--don't the librarians love it? My second foray into this kind of humor was in 1991 while indexing a book by a, to my mind, pompous scholar. The scholar had about 25-30 self citations, and a total of 73 footnotes referring the readers back to the self-citations. I copyedited out all the cross-references, leaving only surname, short title, page no. Then I (humorously, I thought) made an index entry for the author and listed all the footnotes in which the self-citations and x-references occurred. The author, though, was immensely pleased--now the self-citations were collected in one spot for the convenience of the reader! (I admit that the scholar is an important person in that field--but also figured that folks in that narrow discipline were well aware of the author's other works.) And, yes, there have been suggestions that some version of Alfred(a) E. New(wo)man be restored, but I think not. Paula Presley Associate Editor Thomas Jefferson Univ. Press at Northeast Missouri St. Univ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:18:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Marilyn J. Rowland" Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I enjoyed the wild goose chase index entries posted by Stephen Elliott. I do think a humorous index, or humorous index entries are very appropriate in a humorous book, and, in fact, it is great to see them there because it can be taken as an acknowledgement of the value of an index, that an index is acutally a part of the book. I also agree with Joan Stout though: in books that are otherwise not humorous, it may be confusing to the reader to find humorous entries in the index. Marilyn Rowland freelance indexer and sometimes technical writer (who would like to index more humorous books) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:44:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Howell, Joel" Subject: Re: Irreverent indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As the originator of this item I feel compelled to insert that, yes, the "Chauvinism, male, voluminous amounts" really did appear in the index. As to whether it appeared in the book, well, that's a matter of opinion. Joel =========================================================================