Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:37:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Accreditation of Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Accreditation of Indexers My first try doesn't seem to have gotten through. My initial reaction would be that what you and others have said applies to accreditation-the good publishers will only hire good indexers. There are always going to bad indexers out there (including a whole bunch of aspiring indexers ;o)), but they don't _really_ give talented, professional indexers a bad name, do they? So accreditation seems something of a moot point or, in the words of a former student of mine, a mute point. Carol Roberts PUBS, Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:37:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Accreditation of Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE: Accreditation of Indexers (continued...) I agree with Jane that my argument against accreditation is not very strong! why did I ever agree to do this :-} !!! I'll try to make it stronger -- and thanks for your help with this. Accreditation is big business for organizations that bestow accreditation. Then there's accreditation's stepfather, licensing. Here in the state of California everyone and their dog can become licensed to perform some task ranging from landscaping to brain surgery. Despite this aura of professionalism, when it comes time to procure professional services, we are still working with a *caveat emptor* system. If I need to hire a landscape architect or an accountant, I will ask my friends and associates for referrals. Frankly, I don't care about their accreditation. What I care about is whether the individual can perform the work I need done. As a consumer of services, it is my responsibility to know enough about what I want so that I can clearly articulate my desires. If it involves a new area for me, such as landscaping, I need to do some "homework." (In the case of landscaping, I am speaking from recent experience!) When I wanted a rather small front yard (30' x 20') landscaped it was my responsibility to figure out what I wanted from a professional landscaper. I needed to understand why there could be such a variance in bids ($1,000 to $60,000). I had to read things, talk to people, come to understand that there are many different ways to approach this landscaping project. This has nothing to do with the accreditation of the service providers. Instead this is related to being a responsible consumer of services. I wish that some of the people who call me up about indexing projects who take some time to figure out what it is that they want. They say, "we need an index for this software manual." Like it's just this alphabetic list you toss in the back of a book. When asked specific questions about the type of index they want, they can't answer the questions. If they were instead to choose an indexer from a list of accredited indexers, they will still have the same problems they have today; i.e., they don't know what they really want; can't devise an accurate description of work; and then don't like what is delivered. The notion that it is meaningful to accredit indexers feeds into the idea that indexing skills can be accurately measured. It is beyond me how this can be done. I am not arguing that it would be "difficult" but rather impossible to design a meaningful screening procedure that would fairly and accurately measure one's ability to index books of all types. Yes, we could come up with an evaluation procedure that essentially says, "this person demonstrated the ability to index these three books, X, Y, and Z." So what? Does that mean the person can index this fourth book? Do we really need a professional organization to bless our skills? If a potential client wants to know if I have demonstrated the ability to index three books, I'll give out the names of three editors I have worked for. So, who does the accreditation process serve? It serves the lazy consumer who does not want to take the time to call my three references. I would argue that it is rather difficult for someone to "hang out a shingle and call herself an indexer" and expect to get full time work. Work is very unlikely to come from placing an ad in either the newspaper or "Yellow Pages." Many book indexers get started by referrals from other indexers. After one has successfully turned in a few jobs, more work comes from referral from clients. I guess that I'm admitting that there is an "old boy/old girl" network. I will also admit that there is probably a problem for people who are not connected to the network; such as new indexers and nontraditional publishers. In my opinion, the issue is one of getting these unconnected people involved in the network. I think that over the past few years, ASI has successfully pulled more people into the network. An editor who needs to find an indexer for the first time can use ASI's Register of Indexers as a starting point. Yes, it's true that any ASI member in good standing can be listed in the Register, there is no claim of competency made. The editor will very likely find several people listed in the Register who claim competency in being able to write indexes in a particular subject area. Just calling two of these indexers and asking for three references and checking out those three references will immediately put the editor in touch with six consumers of indexing services. In my opinion, there is no better screening process than that! The task of working one's way into the network is more difficult for the beginning indexer. Again, ASI has been helpful, particularly with the establishment of local ASI chapters. In the local chapter, the new indexer can meet other indexers. In some cases the new indexer will find more experienced indexers to work with, as an apprentice. This is how I got started. This is how I have helped others to get started. ASI's efforts at improving professionalism would be far better applied to the establishment of mentoring/apprenticeship program rather than collecting accreditation fees. -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:38:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David R. Chesnutt" Subject: Re: Accreditation of Indexers In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:47:38 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Nancy... I think your basic points are well chosen. Most editors I know who use professional indexers simply check the references--often by phone. Trying to establish an accrediting scheme would be chock full of potholes. Just a thought... David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:39:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Index quote ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Index quote Here is the quote and the reference John Gorentz was talking about: BARON CAMPBELL1779-1861 So essential did I consider an Index to be to every book, that I proposed to bring a Bill into parliament to deprive an author who publishes a book without an Index of the privilege of copyright; and, moreover, to subjectim, for his offence, to a pecuniary penalty. Lives of the Chief Justices, preface to vol.iii, which included an index to the previously published vols. Carol Roberts PUBS, Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:39:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PAULA PRESLEY Subject: Accreditation of Indexers In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 20 AUG 1992 11:46:17 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- {ancy, You raise a lot of good points. I guess the "bottom line" is that indexers who believe they are doing a good job want to (a) "sign" their work (B) receive recognition,no matter how small, for their work, (c)advertise that there are professional indexers... that an index doesn't just happen by itself after reading your memo here, I feel like I probably did a wrong thing with good intentions. In 6 pt. type at the end of two of my indexes, I set: Index prepared by P.Presley, member American Society of Indexers. They rationale was that the only ones who read that small of type at the end of an index is other indexers or aspiring indexers, who may discover that there is a Society of indexers. Now I see that this may not have been such a good idea... besides, how can I submit any of my indexes for the Wilson Award if my name is on them! I agree that reputable presses won't rehire bad indexers. But what about the author who submits an index prepared by a bad indexer that he's hired? Will the reputable press use it because it comes from the author? Will the reputable press editor then have to edit it (this would seem to violate the rule that authors provide the index--the editor would essentially wind up making an index if the one submitted by the author is very bad.) Most of us wear more than one hat... at our press I do substantive editing, production editing... and, my favorite, indexing. The 1 other person does manuscript acquisition, "managing editor and editor-in-chief stuff". we both do lots of other things invovled with our small press (as I'm sure all of us do). On testing and certification: I agree that it would be hard to do. Just what kind of testing would make certification meaningful... and "meaningful" to who? .... enough "thoughts" for now What would any of you indexers do about this: After laboring for months on a huge index, I've finally sent the first proof off to the author. Now, while I re-examine it, I think it is TOO detailed. I'm sure the author will be pleased with all the detail (I essentially "took the author's point of view" when I made the index.) Now I've decided (from the publisher's point of view) that it probably should be significantly reduced. Since the author knows that I'm both the indexer and the editor, I'll have a hard time making a convincing argument for whacking away at the monster I've created! What should I do? Paula Presley AD15@NEMOMUS.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:46:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Bad Indexers/Indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re> "Bad Indexers" & "Bad Indexes" Carol says: There are always going to bad indexers out there (including a whole bunch of aspiring indexers ;o)), but they don't _really_ give talented, professional indexers a bad name, do they? First, I don't want to put "aspiring indexers" in the same category as "bad indexers"!! I have yet to hear of a situation when an aspiring or new/beginning indexer has done something "bad" that would reflect poorly on the rest of us. Yes, there are indexers who give the rest of us a "bad name." I have run into this within the computer industry primarily. Let me say that often the project editor for a computer manual is not in the publishing loop that I referred to in the "accreditation discussion." Chances are that this editor has fought hard to get the budget to hire an outside contractor for indexing. The editor hires an indexer without checking into the technical background required for the manual -- pays a pretty penny for the indexing -- the indexer agrees to an insane schedule because the editor has no idea how to schedule time for indexing -- the index and hefty invoice are submitted and the work is no better or in some cases much worse than what the writers have produced in-house in the past. Users complain about the index; tech. support staff complain about the index. What do think the editor's chances are to get funding to do this again? All this results from one indexer working on material that she or he has little understanding of. This happens frequently in the computer industry (at least in Silicon Valley/Northern California). There's this idea among indexers and within the technical writing community that if you know how to index, you can index a silly ol' computer manual. That's a very misguided attitude. We need only look at the indexes in computer manuals to know that not just anyone can write a good one. Indexers who take on projects that they cannot do well are, in my opinion, "bad indexers" who give us a bad name. There are many computer companies who have decided to keep indexing in-house, make their writers do it, primarily because they have tried outside contractors and were "disappointed." From my perspective, these companies are now out of the market. They will not call me about work because they have been burned by one of my colleagues. It's been very difficult to penetrate the technical indexing market. There are many reasons for this. And the last thing we need is some indexer fouling the waters with inept work! Paula writes: But what about the author who submits an index prepared by a bad indexer that he's hired? Will the reputable press use it because it comes from the author? Will the reputable press editor then have to edit it (this would seem to violate the rule that authors provide the index--the editor would essentially wind up making an index if the one submitted by the author is very bad.) A few years ago at an ASI Conference we heard from some editors who talked about authors and indexes. As I recall, Marilyn Schwartz (managing editor at Univ. of CA Press) has some great stories. The editor who receives a bad index is really caught between a rock and a hard place. Usually there is not enough time to commission another index. Really bad indexes cannot be edited and turned into something good. I think often the decision is made to print the index "as is" or with very minor editing -- after all, the press releases about the book all state that it has an index.... If I remember correctly, the editors at the ASI Conference said it was very rare to forego printing the index submitted by the author. Sounded to me like the index would have to be REALLY bad for them not to print an index at all. I think this brings up another topic touched upon by others in previous messages -- and that is, acknowledging the indexer in print. Several years ago when I meet with editors (and lawyers!) to help draft the ASI Recommended Indexing Agreement, we talked quite a bit about acknowledging the indexer. They all seemed to agree that the quality of indexing work might improve if the indexer was always acknowledged -- especially if the acknowledgement was on the first page of the index: "Index by Jane Doe." So too, if the author writes the index (good or bad) why not put the author's name under the index title? -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:47:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Paula's Monster Index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re> Index that is too detailed Paula asks: What would any of you indexers do about this: After laboring for months on a huge index, I've finally sent the first proof off to the author. Now, while I re-examine it, I think it is TOO detailed. I'm sure the author will be pleased with all the detail (I essentially "took the author's point of view" when I made the index.) Now I've decided (from the publisher's point of view) that it probably should be significantly reduced. Since the author knows that I'm both the indexer and the editor, I'll have a hard time making a convincing argument for whacking away at the monster I've created! What should I do? Paula, since you wear many hats, put on the ruthless production editor hat and tell the author that the index is too long. It will require going into another signature and the press can't afford that! Or, use the same agrument and tell the author that the production editor has said that the index must be reduced in size. If you and the author won't do it, the production editor will do it by removing all the "M" and "S" entries so that the index will fit! -nancy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:48:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RHADDEN@USGSRESV.BITNET Subject: RE: Accreditation of Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The problems are very similar to the problems of accrediting librarians. Do you give accreditation based on subject area, or in skills and knowledge in index construction? All graduates of accredited library schools are accredited, which means the worst of an accredited school is better than the best of an unaccredited school, which is strange, to say the least. You can accredit skills, people, or both. However, being accredited will not keep idiots from saying they are indexers. Today, many clerks and secretaries are placed in charge of a few books in an office and call themselves librarians. Who does the accreditation serve? only those who will pay more to have an accredited indexer instead of a cheap one. Yeah. Right. lee hadden usgs library ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:56:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Woo Subject: Re: Bad Indexers/Indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On acknowledging the indexer: personally I would sometimes be quiet chagrined. Why? If the editor wants me to index in a certain fashion -- like very minimally, using redundant subheadings, only by personal name, etc. -- I do what I am being paid to do. However, I would hate to think that a reader might think that this is how I think proper indexing should be done. (And I do think some editors have slightly peculiar ideas about what an index is supposed to be.) If acknowledgement becomes standard, please let's have a disclaimer line too. Janice Woo -- sometimes indexer and doctoral student (UCB SLIS) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:56:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Aspiring indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Aspiring indexers Nancy, I will take your comment as encouragement: First, I don't want to put "aspiring indexers" in the same category as "bad indexers"!! I have yet to hear of a situation when an aspiring or new/beginning indexer has done something "bad" that would reflect poorly on the rest of us. I didn't really mean that all us wannabes are bad indexers. See my "winky" face in the middle of my comment. ;o) I quite agree with your remarks about people who take on jobs they can't (hope to) do well. When I am offered a copyediting assignment, I always consider very carefully whether the subject is close enough to my area that I am likely to be able to do a good job on it, and if I'm unsure, I ask the production editor a lot of questions about the subject area and why she or he thought I'd be a good choice. I also think carefully about whether I'm likely to be able to finish within the allotted time; if not, I ask for more time. If the press can't give me more time, I simply turn down the assignment. If more freelancers would do that, I think it would encourage presses to create production schedules. On the other hand, I can understand why hungry freelancers don't turn down work. By the way, I once made a pretty bad judgment call on a book that sounded to me and the production editor like it was close enough to my area, so I unwittingly agreed to edit it. (My area is philosophy, and there is a lot of stuff out there that production editors might consider philosophy. There's a sizable gray area.) Turns out, the book was gibberish, and I had to just muddle through and do the best I could in the time allotted. That required a lot of late nights I would rather have spent sleeping. But we all have to make judgment calls like that from time to time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:45:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ted Koppel Subject: Re: Bad Indexers/Indexes In-Reply-To: <9208261257.AA21822@server.carl.org>; from "Janice Woo" at Aug 26, 92 8:56 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From Janice Woo's original message: * *----------------------------Original message---------------------------- *On acknowledging the indexer: personally I would sometimes be quiet *chagrined. Why? If the editor wants me to index in a certain fashion -- *like very minimally, using redundant subheadings, only by personal name, *etc. -- I do what I am being paid to do. However, I would hate to think *that a reader might think that this is how I think proper indexing should *be done. (And I do think some editors have slightly peculiar ideas about *what an index is supposed to be.) If acknowledgement becomes standard, *please let's have a disclaimer line too. * *Janice Woo -- sometimes indexer and doctoral student (UCB SLIS) * I'm sorry, but I have a problem with the 'I do what I am paid to do' point-of-view. It's a lot like selling out ... trading in your years of experience and judgment for a few pieces of silver. I may be a naive idealist, but if the publisher's requirement is to put out a product that doesn't show your care and a quality that you can be proud of, then (at least in my case) I wouldn't do the index. Why produce a lousy product? Disclaimers or not, it reflects on you. The only disclaimer that I can see that would be usefule (and would NEVER be printed) would be: Indexed by Janice Woo, who, against her better judgment did a half-baked job on this Index. [Personal background, since I have never posted to this list before: I have indexed several books (about 6-7 years ago) for an author at the University where I used to work. I am also closely involved in the production and publication of a small peridoical-type index. I am a librarian by training and a computer person by evolution.] Ted -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ted Koppel -- CARL Systems, Inc. -- ted@carl.org ----------------------- >> Systems that Inform << ----------------------- Work: 404 242 8733 Home: 404 242 8710 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:46:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KOBAYASH ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- NFAIS INDEXING COURSES -- FALL 1992 The National Federation of Abstracting & Information Services (NFAIS, Philadelphia) will be conducting two stimulating and detailed indexing seminars this fall. INDEXING: VOCABULARY MANAGEMENT takes place on Wednesday-Thursday, October 14-15, 1992, 9:00am to 4:15 pm in San Francisco, CA. The two day course offers information on: vocabulary control; morphology of descriptors; relationships between vocabulary terms; indexing policies; display, development and maintenance of a thesaurus and thesaurus development software. The cost is $360 nonmembers ($300 NFAIS members) and includes lunch and refreshments. Register on or before September 1, 1992 to receive an EARLY BIRD DISCOUNT ($340 nonmembers, $285 NFAIS members) THE BASICS OF INDEXING takes place on Thursday, November 5, 1992 9:00 am to 4:00 pm. in Philadelphia, PA. The one day course offers: an overview of classification systems; discussion of indexing consistency; indexing effects on information retrieval; controlled vocabulary and thesaurus development and a review of indexing resources and tools. The cost is $180 nonmembers ($150 NFAIS members) and $50 library/ information science students. Registration includes lunch and refreshments. Register on or before September 1, 1992 to receive an EARLY BIRD DISCOUNT ($170 nonmembers, $140 NFAIS members). Register by sending the following information with payment to: NFAIS, 1429 Walnut St., Philadelphia PA 19102 (For more information: Telephone: 215/563-2406 or FAX: 215/563-2848.) NAME COMPANY/ORGANIZATION ADDRESS CITY/STATE/ZIP or POSTAL CODE TELEPHONE: Name of Library/Information Science School (if applicable) COURSE YOU ARE REGISTERING FOR NONMEMBER FEE MEMBER FEE STUDENT FEE All registrations must be prepaid. Cancellations should be in writing. Returns for cancellations minus a $50.00 processing fee will be granted up to two weeks prior to the course date. After that date, no refund can be given. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:46:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re- Aspiring Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Aspiring Indexers Oops! In my message of 8/26, I meant to say, of course, "it would encourage presses to create realistic production schedules." Carol Roberts PUBS, Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:02:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Correspondence Study Progra ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Correspondence Study Program Nancy Mulvany told us a couple of weeks ago (shows you how far behind I am) of a correspondence study program. Does Nancy or anyone out there in the ether know whether the program is available via e-mail? It was just a thought :o). Carol Roberts PUBS, Cornell =========================================================================