========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:08:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "H-AMSTDY MODERATOR (AND FRIENDLY FACTOTUM)" Organization: St. Peter's College, US Subject: Re: indexless books ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Apart from blowing off steam to what I know is a sympathetic > audience, I am curious to know if others of you have had this > experience. If so what do you do about it? > None of the American editions of Alice Miller's books came equipped with an index. I thought this was preposterous. I wrote to the publishers and editors of these books. As someone said to me recently, "the flames in my letter were so hot you could cook a meal on them." Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:09:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ned Bedinger Subject: Re: indexless books ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi Charlotte-- My reaction to desireable but indexless books would be to contact the publisher and the editor and advise them of the error. They may contend that their expensive books must come in on a budget which precludes taking the time and expense to add an index. This would be my cue to drive home the point that the books were rejected. I don't have much experience at the level of decision making where an index can be added or omitted from a book, but I imagine that publishers are informed by market research which tells them that the book will sell without an index. Otherwise, it could be that an ambitious editor is jockeying for career advances by bringing the books in under budget. These managerial missteps reflect very badly on the publisher. Unfortunately, the back-of-book index seems to be wavering between its traditional place as a useful adjunct and its new place as an optional feature. It seems to me that more and more books are being published without them. Ned Bedinger qwa@u.washington.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:09:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Huerta Subject: Artificial intelligence and indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Last weekend I attended an Internet workshop. Among the technologies demonstrated was a MAC "power book" (I think that was the term used). The user slipped a diskette (Jurassic Park) into the small computer, was able to highlight any term on any page and ask for other page numbers where the same term was found. Two seconds later Tyranosaurus, 5,11,24,etc appeared on the screen. Nice keyword indexing I thought. Nothing terribly complicated. Certainly nothing intellectually astute in terms of subject indexing was shown nor, for that matter, were the subtleties of formatting or thesaurus building or cross-referencing part of the demo. I did wonder if anyone in this discussion groups had seen more sophisticate artificial intelligence applications for indexing. Forgive me if this is a naive question. I have not been to ASI meetings and am just starting to take the basic USDA course (hard!) on indexing. Thank you. Debbie DHuerta@Center.Colgate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:10:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: bob wallace Subject: e. e. cummings ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In an index in which main headings are capped (whether they are proper nouns or not), how would you treat, for example, e. e. cummings? a) Camera Carson, Rachel Louise Cookie Cummings, e. e. b) Camera Carson, Rachel Louise Cookie cummings, e. e. c) Camera Carson, Rachel Louise Cookie Cummings, E. E. My guess is (b), for the same reason you wouldn't (I _think_) list d'Alembert as D'Alembert in that same init.-capped index. Do I win, do I win??!! Carol Roberts Ithaca, NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:10:57 ECT Reply-To: Michael Kalen Smith Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Kalen Smith Subject: Re: indexless books ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Today, I encountered two books from the same (very reputable) >publisher (of very expensive books). Neither of them had indexes. >One of the books came in on approval and I rejected it. The >other had been ordered (presumably by me), cataloged and was >ready to be shelved. I have permission to return the book and >write a nasty (but polite) letter to the publisher on university >stationary. The sad thing is...I would love to have both of these >books in our collection...if they had indexes. > >Apart from blowing off steam to what I know is a sympathetic >audience, I am curious to know if others of you have had this >experience. If so what do you do about it? > > Charlotte Skuster > Index-l moderator I'm the History Specialist (more-work-same-pay) at the Dallas Public Library, so my situation is somewhat different from yours. As the primary "guiding selector" of a large system with 20 branches, I don't have the luxury of rejecting an otherwise well-done book (not very often, anyway) because it lacks an index. In our case, it would usually be a small press or self-published work in local history that we MUST have, or a travel guide that is meant to be browsed in anyway. I don't (can't afford to) buy many really pricey volumes, and those that I do buy are so standard and heavily reviewed, they ALWAYS have indexes. However, I also have written many a book review for LJ & BOOKLIST in the past and I truly *love* to receive a review copy of an index-less book: They're SO much fun to slam! I have also been known to write letters to the managing editors of publishers who make a practice of letting such books out the door. Not "nasty," though; stiff and coldly professional is more my forte, with all the initials I can legitimately use strung out after my signature. It's been suggested that ASI prepare a form letter detailing the "appalling lack of professional publishing standards," or something equally fiery, and sending it out to the authors & editors of such books -- signed by the Society corporately, of course, since we might want to help them *remedy* their indexing lacunae...! Mike ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Kalen Smith / Dallas, TX Internet: mksmith@taproot.win.net / CompuServe: 73177,366 *** It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds *** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:36:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.7f)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from OSLMAC.OSL.OR.GOV Date: 2 Aug 1993 07:23:04 U From: "NAPPER Marjorie" Subject: RE: indexless books To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" I haven't been at Brooklyn Public Library since 1965, but when I was there, we got pre-pub copies of books for review, and no index was an automatic not recommened for purchase for most nonfiction. I wish libraries would meke that the policy period. If not that, I wish all reviewers would mention "NO INDEX' in the review. Some do. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 16:46:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: e. e. cummings In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 02 AUG 1993 09:08:32 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Carol, I spend my live trying to take the middle road on everything (albeit unintentionally). Therefore, I select "b": Cummings, e.e. (After all, you did capitalize Cookies--and _I_ wouldn't do think that proper unless they're Chocolate Chip (or chocolate chip)! Did I win?? Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 16:46:25 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: Re: indexless books In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 02 AUG 1993 09:08:02 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- So, Jeff...what kind of response did you get? I 'm curious for I cannot imagine an indexless book--or anything. I recently suggested to our local small-town newspaper that a special annual edition they put out would benefit by an index of advertisers and an index of articles (all-in-one or separate). I suspected they used PageMaker and asked if that was the case. The editor told me it was. She was simply amazed when I told her she could "mark" items in her text and create a useful word list --wanted me to volunteer to show her how (I suggested she and her typesetters read the manual). (Sometimes--very rarely, indeed--a computer generated word list, no matter how basic, is far superior to no index at all). > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Apart from blowing off steam to what I know is a sympathetic > > audience, I am curious to know if others of you have had this > > experience. If so what do you do about it? > > > None of the American editions of Alice Miller's books came > equipped with an index. I thought this was preposterous. I > wrote to the publishers and editors of these books. As someone > said to me recently, "the flames in my letter were so hot you > could cook a meal on them." > > Jeff Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 16:46:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Doug Thompson Subject: indexless books ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A book with a bad index is sometimes more aggravating than a book with no index, but I agree with you 100%. Your letter should be published in ASI's monthly newsletter...it would cheer up all those indexers. In addition, what is frustrating to the indexer is the fact that publishers "revise" (shorten) an index, add errors, etc., and then the indexer gets blamed, the reader is aggravated and the librarian doesn't know who to blame. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1993 10:20:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: bob wallace Subject: Re: e. e. cummings ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Carol, I spend my live trying to take the middle road on everything >(albeit unintentionally). Therefore, I select "b": Cummings, e.e. >(After all, you did capitalize Cookies--and _I_ wouldn't do think that >proper unless they're Chocolate Chip (or chocolate chip)! > Did I win?? > >Paula Presley > Hi, Paula. Ordinarily, I don't go in for capitalizing heads that aren't proper nouns, but that seems to be the style in philosophy (you know, sort of snooty). Anyway, I only got 3 replies: 2 in favor of Cummings, e. e. and 1 "it doesn't matter." Now there's a fine how do you do! Cheerio, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1993 12:02:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "L. Pilar Wyman" <71344.3467@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: +Postage Due+indexless books ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Charlotte -- I am not a librarian, just a freelance indexer, but I have come across indexless books, and it has made my blood boil too. My husband and I have an extensive private library, and I have written directly to publishers when I have received a book with no index. (As you know, catalog descriptions of books don't always indicate if there is an index). Unfortunately, the only response I have gotten has been to find myself added to their mailing lists.... which is annoying enough in itself, if it weren't for the fact that I was already on their mailing lists in order to have ordered the book(s)!! Someday book reviews will as a rule include indexes, and so will any description of a book. Or so I hope. Good luck! L. Pilar Wyman Wyman Indexing Galesville, MD 20765 (410) 867-1436 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1993 14:07:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: brennan Subject: Re: e. e. cummings In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 2 Aug 1993 10:10:33 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I DON'T KNOW ANY E.E. Cummings, but I do recognize e.e. cummings. @Name authori ty files dictate the logical conventional wisdom. Why not just leave it blank? that way you will always be right and never left with an undiffrentiated modifi er................bye bye from Kingston, RI Brennan 8-]>> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 13:18:16 ECT Reply-To: Michael Kalen Smith Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Kalen Smith Subject: Re: Artificial intelligence and indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Last weekend I attended an Internet workshop. Among the technologies >demonstrated was a MAC "power book" (I think that was the term used). >The user slipped a diskette (Jurassic Park) into the small computer, was >able to highlight any term on any page and ask for other page numbers where >the same term was found. Two seconds later Tyranosaurus, 5,11,24,etc >appeared on the screen. Nice keyword indexing I thought. Nothing terribly >complicated. Certainly nothing intellectually astute in terms of subject >indexing was shown nor, for that matter, were the subtleties of formatting >or thesaurus building or cross-referencing part of the demo. I did wonder >if anyone in this discussion groups had seen more sophisticate artificial >intelligence applications for indexing. Forgive me if this is a naive >question. I have not been to ASI meetings and am just starting to take >the basic USDA course (hard!) on indexing. Thank you. Debbie >DHuerta@Center.Colgate.edu Well, there have been word-processing programs capable of building a *concordance* since at least WordPerfect 4.1, which is when I moved up to a PC. The old "diamond-key" WordStar probably could do it, too. Among other things, I teach genealogical research & publishing methods to county societies on a regular basis, and one of the assertions I have to deal with on almost every occasion is that someone doing a book of family history can whip out an index "automatically." I've written letters of protest to companies publishing word processing software to protest their ads that include their program's ability to "index." I suspect it's a losing battle. *We* know a concordance is only the faintest shadow of a conceptual index, but the consumers don't. And personally, I don't think we'll see an AI in our lifetimes capable of creating a *real* index, either -- because it *is* a process of creation, not just of tagging keywords and assembling the associated page numbers. I'm using a very convenient "internet shell," running under Windows, to write this -- and I'm thankful it relieves me of the necessity of learning Unix commands! But it only does what I tell it to and it can't write this reply by itself.... Mike Smith History Specialist, Dallas Public Library (aka: Smith Editorial Services / Taproot Publishers) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Kalen Smith / Dallas, TX Internet: mksmith@taproot.win.net / CompuServe: 73177,366 *** It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds *** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1993 17:37:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@phalen.revisor.state.mn.us Subject: artificial intelligence tools for indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My experience is not wide, but I have encountered at least two types of real AI tools for indexing. One is the sentence parser; the other is the expert system designed not to make the index entries but to assist the human indexer. My office (the revisor's office in Minnesota) worked briefly, a few years back, with a firm called Syntactic Analyzers, who wanted us to become a beta test site for their product, which was basically a parser. I never got a hard look at the grammatical analysis being done, but the output looked no different from a KWIC index. It had no hierarchical structure, no sydetics, no anything. It was far from being what we needed, so we declined to spend time or money on it. Parsers may be getting better now; there was an article not too long ago in The Indexer about their progress. There are probably many expert systems. The one I have seen demonstrated that impressed me the most was MeSH (medical subject headings). I think the designers name is Suzanne Humphries, and the system is used for indexing in MEDINDEX for the National Library of Medicine. (Have I got this right,folks?) There will be an NFAIS seminar in DC this October on automated support to indexing. I once heard a very lively debate between Nancy Mulvaney, and someone else whose name I have forgotten, about the relative merits of automated versus human indexing. Nancy's opponent conceded that human indexing is better, and that the reasons for putting up with machine indexing are economic, having to do with the enormous amount of material that needs to be indexed in big databases. s. I argue for human indexers every chance I get, but I'd want to look at any tool that would relieve the burden on human indexers or make them more consis- tent. Maryann Corbett Language Specialist, Revisor's Office Minnesota Legislature =========================================================================