Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 11:59:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Wylie Subject: Re: Technical Manual Indexing In-Reply-To: <199402102028.AA04271@metronet.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree with Richard Woodley. My wife and I index professionally, mostly of genealogy material, and often get this question (must I index that which I have so thoroughly covered in the TOC?) My answer is yes and for the same reasons Richard offered. The index should stand alone and not require the user to absorb the structure of the work to find if the work contains material of use to her or him, or to find specific material. Cheers . . . John in Dallas jwylie@metronet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 12:00:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Re: Technical Manual Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In response to Leonard Will's comments concerning a post by Janet K. Ilacqua: > ... I would be very sorry to see anyone departing from the idea that > the index should be a direct and one-step access to the topic which a > user seeks.... I am a technical writer, editor, and indexer; I belong to the Society for Technical Communication and to the American Society of Indexers, and I offer workshops on indexing to technical writers and editors. The index is the user's primary retrievability tool. Since there is nothing more frustrating for users than knowing that the documentation contains information about a topic, yet being unable to find an index entry for it, I would argue for *one* comprehensive index. In fact, in all my years of experience as a technical writer and indexer for Fortune 500 companies as well as for smaller software development companies, I have never seen the type of index that Janet Ilacqua describes. Perhaps that type of index is more common to journals; however, it is *not* common in technical documentation. Lori Lathrop --------------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services P.O. Box 808 Georgetown, CO 80444 (303)567-9533 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:32:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Van Dyke Subject: Compatibility ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As members of COPYEDITING-l are already too aware, I'm in the process of buying a computer. Among other things, I want to make sure I match its capacity to that of computers used by most publishers, including university presses (for the purpose of editing and production jobs). My question to WISP: If in fact your freelance copy editors now perform their work on disks, what level of computer does the copy editor need? Are there special requirements to consider re: doing computer-peformed copy editing for university/scholarly presses? For example, one system I'm considering is the MacIntosh Quadra 650. Is this powerful enough (or more than enough/just right, as is or w/upgraded memory?) I realize this is a self-serving question that may not be within the scope of the list, so feel free to say so--but maybe WISP members will be interested to learn what others use or require. This question is a result of the overwhelmed, disoriented state I'm in since researching computer choices. PS--I have used both Macs and PCs and of course like Macs better; I assume most publishers use Macs-- right? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:49:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Van Dyke Subject: compatibility goof ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Aaaack!!! I sent my previous message re: computer compatibility to the wrong discussion list--it was just a matter of time. If you have any insights, I'd appreciate your views, as well. Sorry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:06:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hairylarry@aol.com Subject: Multiple/segmented indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Leonard Will (LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk) writes: >I have wept over so many "amateur" indexes produced by journal publishers >which group items under the section headings in which they appeared, like >"Letters to the editor", "Notes and news", "This week", "Hints and tips", >"Book reviews", and other such useless labels, that I would be very sorry >to see anyone departing from the idea that an index should be a direct >and one-step access to the topic which a user seeks. I strongly agree, and in fact, recent research presented at the 1993 ASI national conference seems to show that many people are confused by even a simple author vs. subject index split, not an "amateur" invention at all. Perhaps indexers focus too much on the refinement of their craft for the appreciation of other indexers, leaving most index users struggling far behind to get the basics. Larry Harrison Hairylarry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 10:06:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: James Glenn Subject: Re: Compatibility In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:32:28 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Which computer - MOST publishers, no matter which computer you buy, will use something different - at least the ones you end up working for. I've found the Mac to be the perfect choice, with some additions to allow for the fact that half of the publishers DO still insist on DOS- compatible disks. These additions include AccessPC for the Mac, which allow the 1.4MB SuperDrive to read/write DOS disks. MS WORD will allow saving as a DOS file, either ASCII or WP format, right to the DOS disk in the drive. The Quadra 650 may be overkill, but, hey, it'll do a lot more besides - like run Mosaic independantly, and function as a node on the 'Net. But you may never get any sleep if you do that! You could wait a *brief* period of time and acquire the new PowerPC 601 (entry level) when it comes out next month. I understand it will run Mac and DOS operating systems side-by-side. Now there's compatibility! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 09:12:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: ASI 26th Annual Meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The American Society of Indexers is hosting its 26th annual meeting at the Town and Country Hotel, San Diego, CA, on May 13-14, 1994. Title: The Changing Landscapes of Indexing Preconference workshops: Friday May 13 Workshop 1: Surviving the Big One: Managing Large Indexing Projects Jan Blakeslee 8-12 noon Workshop 2: Traveling the Internet: What It Can Do for You Roy Tennant 1-5 pm Workshop 3: An Introduction to Indexing Susan Klement 8-12 noon, 1-5 pm Friday evening reception hosted by the Southern California Chapter Saturday May 14: Conference Indexing Atlases at Nation Geographic Jolene Blozis and George Burneston What Editors Need and Want: Are They Getting It? (Panel discussion) Keynote Speaker: Barbara Quint, writer and editor or SEARCHER, THE MAGAZINE FOR DATABASE PROFESSIONALS Evolving Indexing Styles and Media in IBM Documentation Joan Gadek, Dr. Ralph Earle, and Deborah Swain Embedded Indexing Software: Users Speak Out Nancy Mulvany Can Indexing Be Taught? (Panel Discussion) Conference registration includes a buffet luncheon on Saturday and a copy of the Conference Proceedings. Registration forms are available from the American Society of Indexers, P.O. Box 386, Port Aransas, TX 78373. To register by VISA or MasterCard, call (512) 749-4052, 8:30 am-3:30 pm Central Standard Time, Mon-Fri. Registration forms may also be requested at asi@well.sf.ca.us Looking forward to seeing you in San Diego. Respectfully submitted, Barbara E. Cohen Secretary, ASI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 09:09:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: K.Lyle@sheffield.ac.uk Subject: EASE Conference, Budapest, 24 - 28 April ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Is anyone out there planning to come to this? Full title is Editing, ethics, electronics and economics European Association of Science Editors 5th General Assembly and Conference, Budapest, Hungary I am moderating two of the parallel sessions, one entitled Freelance editing - the way ahead" and one on journal indexing. These are informal sessions, intended to provide a forum for discussion. I'd very much welcome participation from US-based freelancers or in- house indexers. If anyone is interested, please contact me. Further details about the conference are available from the EASE secretary/treasurer Maeve O'Connor (fax +44 (0)71 383 3092 - no e- mail address). Hope to meet some of you there. Kathleen ====================================================================== Kathleen M. Lyle Technical Editor, Applied Probability Trust, Hicks Building, The University, Sheffield S3 7RH, UK Phone +742 824269 Fax +742 729782 ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:21:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Embedded Indexing Survey (*Long* 242 lines) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Background In December 1993 I posted a Request for Comments (RFC) about embedded indexing software on three discussion groups on the Internet. Specifically, I asked if people were satisfied with the embedded indexing tools that they used. I asked people to indicate what tools they used and to indicate any features they would like to see added. The RFC was posted at the following locations: Indexing Conference on The WELL INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET TECHWR-L@VM1.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU FRAMERS@UUNET.UU.NET The RFC was re-posted by others on other lists. People were asked to respond during Dec. 9-31, 1993. During this period I received 85 comments about embedded indexing tools. Disclaimer Absolutely no effort was made to conduct a "scientific" survey. Discussions about whether or not these results reflect a fair sample of the population that uses embedded indexing software are pointless. The fact is that during a typically busy time of the year (the Christmas holiday season) I received approximately 185 Kb of comments from people who are users of this type of software. The results overwhelmingly confirm my own experiences with users of this software. Results Question: Are you satisfied with embedded indexing software that you have used? 5% are satisfied (n=4) 95% are not satisfied (n=81) Satisfied respondents are those who said they were satisfied and/or had no suggestions for improvements in the product(s). Not satisfied respondents are those who said they were not satisfied and/or had suggestions for improvements in the products. Products Represented The number following the product name indicates the number of comments received about the product. Satisfied with the Embedded Indexing Module (n=4; 5%) FrameMaker (1) IBM BookMaster (2) WordPerfect (1) Not Satisfied with the Embedded Indexing Module (n=81; 95%) FrameMaker (27)* IBM BookMaster (1) Interleaf (8) LaTeX (1) Microsoft Word (15) PageMaker (3) Ventura Publisher (4) WordPerfect (9) WordStar (2) XyWrite (1) Product Not Specified (10) * It should be noted that the relatively large number of responses about FrameMaker are very likely due to the fact that the RFC was posted to a list devoted to FrameMaker discussion which of course biased the number of responses about FrameMaker. Respondents' Suggestions for Improvements Many of the respondents included thoughtful comments about features they would like to see added or improvements they would like to see made in embedded indexing software. It is significant that so many respondents took time to compose these comments. This indicates to me a serious concern on the part of users of this type of software. While some of the comments are specifically related to a particular product, many other comments are universal and can applied to any tool used for indexing electronic material. I will present the general comments that I consider to be of interest universally. Of course, not all comments apply to all products. I have listed suggestions that for the most part were suggested by more than one respondent. o Index entry methods Many find the methods used to create index entries to be tedious and time consuming. Some prefer a "fill-in the fields" methods as seen in Ventura's dialog box or Interleaf's "Levelx" sheet. Others want a method for creating index entries without having to remove their hands from the keyboard. o Index display Many are frustrated by the not being able to see index entries that have been created previously. Some products allow the writer to see the last few entries created, many would like to be able to see all entries already created. One user comments, "PageMaker's indexing at least lets you see other entries in the same alphabetical range you have made, but forces you to break your index editing task into two modes: editing already existing entries, and then going back and adding tags for new entries. It is really slow." o Index editing Many, many comments were devoted to the index editing task. Since many programs generate the index as a static document, editing changes must be made in the text files by locating individual tags/index tokens, changing them, and regenerating the index. Suggestions for improvement include: The generated index should be dynamic document that is linked to the index tags. Changes made in the index file should be updated in the text file tags. As noted above, this feature is available in PageMaker; it is also available in Describe, a product not mentioned in this survey. It should be possible to spell-check the embedded index entries and globally change entries and their tags. o Citing continuous discussion of a topic Many complain about the methods used for citing the range of pages on which a topic is discussed. In some programs the method is so tedious that writers do not attempt to provide page ranges (e.g, files, copying, 5-9). Essentially people want an "easy" way to indicate that a discussion begins right here and ends there. o Increase the size of the index window/panel/dialog box o Sorting: Better algorithms that allow index entries to be sorted correctly; faster; ignore leading function words in subentries o Cumulative Indexes: should be easy to merge multiple indexes 0 Reference Locators: Ability to properly handle modular page numbers (e.g., 3-2) and lettered appendix page numbers (e.g., A-3); reminder of incomplete range references (missing startrange or endrange string) o Index Text Formatting: Ability to retain text formatting in the document in the index entry. Ability to set pre-defined styles, such as all main headings will be capitalized. o Index Document Formatting: automatically take care of bad breaks with "continued" phrases; widow/orphan control; more control over the final index format o Attach a Thesaurus for Vocabulary Control o Pick entries from a list of previous entries o Quickly be able to invert entries (i.e., make the subentry a main heading and the main heading a subentry) o Easily repeat any heading level instead of re-typing o Interactively display all entries with specified string of text o Cross-references: Easy insertion of cross-references; specify their position with the entire entry and for subentries; cumulate multiple cross-references so that they do not appear separately o Automatic Text Processing Tools: Generate a concordance that the writer can edit to create the index. It is interesting to note that most writers requesting this feature insisted on human intervention, noting that a concordance is not an index. One summed up the matter by writing, "The biggest problem with a scheme like this one, though, is the overwhelming potential to implement it poorly." o Display embedded entries in the document in a clear way Conclusion This report is already getting too long for general circulation via Internet discussion groups, so I will be brief. First, I want to thank everyone who contributed comments. Second, I want to say that you have verified the work I have doing in this area since 1988. The features and functionality you request are all "doable". Many of these features have been incorporated into standalone indexing software for the past 11 years. My company publishes standalone indexing software (Macrex) for IBM PCs. This software is primarily used by indexers indexing from printed pages of text; it does not embed tags in text files. Users of this type of software work with their index in alphabetic order. They are able to reduce keyboarding significantly through the use of dedicated commands for this purpose. Because you can see exactly where an entry will go, it is possible to significantly reduce inconsistencies. Cross-references are verified instantly so that you will know if you create a cross-reference for an entry that does not exist. It is possible to group together entries that contain specified strings of text. This way the indexer can see all entries for a particular phrase; both main headings and subentries will be displayed. It is my opinion that the design of embedded indexing tools has been "wrong-headed" from the start. The context has been wrong. The context has been the document being indexed rather than the index being written. With many of the these programs you are indexing in the dark. You cannot easily see the emerging index structure. Imagine your word processor causing each sentence to disappear as soon as it is ended. As you work you are unable to see the sentence in context with other sentences or paragraphs. An overhaul of the user interface design of embedded indexing software is called for. Problems with incorrect alphabetization, reference locator handling, formatting of bad breaks with indexes are due to sloppiness. There's no excuse for these problems. We solved them with the CP/M version of our software during the days when computers came with 64Kb of memory! Designers of embedded indexing software would do well to consult the standard references in indexing (Chicago Manual of Style, 14th edition; Indexing Books, Nancy Mulvany, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1994; British Standard 3700:1988). There are rules and guidelines for presentation of indexes that have been widely ignored by developers. It would also be helpful if designers spoke with professional indexers and find out how we work. Before developers can provide efficient tools they must understand the process of creating authored indexes. A more in-depth discussion of embedded indexing software will be presented at the 26th Annual Meeting of the American Society of Indexers in San Diego (May 13-14, 1994). The paper will appear in the ASI Proceedings for that meeting (available in May 1994). Contact ASI at: P.O. Box 386, Port Aransas, TX 78373; or via email at asi@well.sf.ca.us Nancy Mulvany Bayside Indexing Service (510) 524-4195 nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us =========================================================================