========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:38:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Problems with indexing either books or journals -- feedback requested ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I just finished a worldwind period of indexing: 2 books and 4 journal issues in just over 3 weeks trying to meet deadlines. As I encountered various difficulties I began wondering how the rest of you would resolve them. Your feedback would be invaluable in improving my skills. First, my biggest problem is that I tend to overindex. My indexes are usually too big (thank god Meckler accomodates them) and too detailed. One of the reasons is that I do a lot of double-posting and generally refer from acronyms to full name. The last book, intended for librarians, I cut down on these type of "see" references because I believe that most librarians are more familiar with acronyms of associations than their full names. Another reason I overindex is that, after I complete the second edit of the index, I have too little time to post up to a more general heading. I find collapsing entries more demanding than any other indexing task. Also, what to leave out is difficult to determine. I find myself arguing with imaginary critics about why I left something in or took something out. Second, finding a way to handle terms used in the book that the authors use to mean somewhat different concepts but which are still very close in meaning is often quite difficult. Here's an example of a set of terms I struggled with on the last project used by the authors: partnering, partnerships, collaboration, alliances, cooperation, cooperative arrangements, and joint programs. Also, I always wonder how to handle libraries, public libraries, academic libraries, special libraries, library (as in library issues, library programs, library staff). What about issues: I usually try to group all isssues under the same heading and index each issue separately. Third, I struggle whether to use abbreviated headings for see and see also references because I genrally encounter very long standards, organizations, associations, and legislative names. Of course, CINDEX lists these as empty if the names don't match exactly. (Or seems to ... sometimes I can't figure out how its handling cross-references for a "verify" command.) These are some of the problems I struggle with and I hope you all can offer some tricks of the trade that will improve my skills. Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Sryacuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210 315-464-7109 315-464-7199 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:39:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Zane Berge, Ph.D." Subject: IPCT Journal Announces Gopher Access ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ANNOUNCING IPCT JOURNAL AVAILABLE VIA GOPHER Interpersonal Computing and Technology: An Electronic Journal for the 21st Century The publisher and editors of "IPCT: An Electronic Journal for the 21st Century" are pleased to announce that IPCT Journal, including all back issues, is available via gopher from GUVM.CCF.GEORGETOWN.EDU (or 141.161.71.1). Point your gopher to this location (port 70) and select from the top menu, "LISTSERV maintained Files and Notelogs/." Alternatively, coming in via Gopher menus, from "Other Gopher Sites" or "International Gopher Networks," follow the menus down: North America/USA/Washington D.C./Georgetown University/Information Systems/Listserv maintained Files and Notelogs. (Note: The IPCT-L Discussion List Notelogs can be found here, too.) This new option for accessing IPCT Journal will not affect any person already subscribed to IPCT-L or IPCT-J. Anyone can, if preferred, subscribe to the IPCT-J@GUVM.GEORGETOWN.EDU list and receive the Journal via LISTSERV distribution, (see instructions below). The next issue (v2n1) will be published later this month. Articles in IPCT Journal are full length (10-20 pages with notes and bibliography) done in APA format. Published articles have been rigorously peer-reviewed and include, but are not limited to, the following topics: use of electronic networks in the classroom, electronic publishing, use of electronic networks and information exchange, library applications of electronic communication, professional relationships carried on via electronic communication, use of electronic communication in higher education, business, industry and government and related topics. Articles may have a humanistic or social science cast. Technological articles are considered to the extent that they are intelligible to the bulk of the readers and are not specific to any particular hardware configuration. Articles can be submitted to the Editor-in-Chief, Gerald Phillips, GMP3@PSUVM.BITNET or gmp3@psuvm.psu.edu (internet). TO SUBSCRIBE TO IPCT-J PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW: Send a message in following form to LISTSERV@GUVM or LISTSERV@GUVM.GEORGETOWN.EDU To: LISTSERV@GUVM.GEORGETOWN.EDU ----------------- SUBSCRIBE IPCT-J YOURFIRSTNAME YOURLASTNAME Regards, Zane Berge, Publisher Interpersonal Computing and Technology: An Electronic Journal for the 21st Century BERGE@GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:00:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "[CKatie Izat" <100265.2771@CompuServe.COM> Subject: JOURNAL ABSTRACTING AND INDEXING ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have enjoyed the recent discussion on book vs. journal indexing. I am curious about the relationship between journal indexers and abstracters - are they one and the same? I am a qualified librarian and have recently completed the UK's Society of Indexers Training Course and now find that the next obvious move is into abstracting. However I know nothing about how this side of the business works and would welcome any info. Do abstracters and journal indexers work freelance at all - or are they all salaried and working for electronic database producers and publishers? Are there any distance learning courses on abstracting (particularly in the UK)? All comments welcome. Thanks, Katie Izat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:00:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tara Lynn Fulton Subject: indexer needed ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I hope it is not against protocol to ask on this listserv for assistance in locating an indexer. John Daniel Marshall has a contract with Macmillan for a book on current currc]lum/teacher education readeings. If anyone knows someone with subject knowledge or other expertise that would lead to a better index than Macmillan produces for its basic fee, he would be interestied in speaking with you. Please send brief informa- tion, inlcuding phone number to my email address. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:00:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Woo Subject: wilson index awards ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'd like to obtain -- online if possible -- a list of all of the Wilson awards for b.o.b. indexes. Does anyone know where this might reside? Many thanks. Janice Woo P.S. What I'm looking for is a list of "best indexes." Are there other evaluative mechanisms that I should check out? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:01:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: bob wallace Subject: Chasing work ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, y'all. Let's say there's a book you really want to index. The material is fun and right up your alley. The author has indexed her own books in the past and done a terrible job of it. Assuming you're not above a little (or a lot of) self-promotion, would it be appropriate to send the author a letter? Or should it go to the publisher? Have any of you done such a thing? How did you handle it? Comments? Thanks! Carol Roberts rw16@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:48:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Stephen E. Bach" Subject: International Internet Association ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In view of the alarm regarding the International Internet Association list members might be interested to learn that today I received a login and password from them along with instructions about how to log on (including a phone number to call if one has problems doing so) and a sheet explaining the purposes of the organization. "The IAA is a collection of engineers, networking enthusiasts, and individuals with vision. "OUR GOAL "TO PROMOTE THE FREE FLOW OF INFROMATION WITHOUT REGARD TO POSITION OR AFFI- LIATION ..." ... about a half a page about IIA's "FOCUS" ... On first logging on one is required to change one's password from the one they have assigned. "Additional information about the IIA and the Internet can be found on-line by following the easy to use menus available at login." Stephen E. Bach fulltime freelance indexer (804) 977-7015 sbach@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:51:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Problems with indexing either books or j ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hannah, First off, why do you say you're overindexing? From what you describe you might just as well be doing good, thorough indexing. I certainly wouldn't leave out references from full names to acronyms -- even less for librarians than for other users. Librarians are thoroughly conditioned, via cataloging rules and subject headings, to expect full names in an information resource. (This doesn't apply, of course, to a case where the full name has for practical purposes been forgotten.) Just a couple of thoughts. Jessica ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:51:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: wilson index awards ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I think I saw a listing recently. Did you check with ASI (asi@well.sf.ca.us)? Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:52:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: JOURNAL ABSTRACTING AND INDEXING ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In the U.S., most of the big (collective) journal indexes do relatively little abstracting; they use author abstracts or go bare. There are exceptions, and from time to time an abstracting project comes along. I have the impression that when abstracting is done, it may or may not be combined with indexing. I doubt very seriously that there are distance learning courses on abstracting in the U.S.; I have no idea about the UK. Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 12:53:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Kalen Smith Subject: Re: Chasing work In-Reply-To: <199401241902.AA23738@metronet.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The first rule of pr, salesmanship, and maybe life in general is: Don't be afraid to toot your own horn; nobody else is going to blow it for you. Have you never sent an inquiry letter to a copyeditor with a list of your credits attached? How is that essentially different from hitting up a self-indexing author directly? (Of course, you wouldn't exactly say "Say, your indexing is really *crummy* -- why don't you let a professional handle that for you?"....) Actually, I *have* approached authors directly on two occasions. Once, it was a prof I knew from having met her at a couple of academic conferences. She'd already located another indexer herself, but she thanked me for my interest and later recommended me to a colleague who was writing a book. The second time, it was a friend of a friend who hadn't half-finished writing the book yet but knew he was *going* to require a "real" indexer. My friend suggested to me that I approach the other guy if I was interested, and I did. Got the job, too, about six months later, when the book was ready. What it comes down to, I think, is that indexers undervalue themselves (as has been said here before...) and the type of work they do. You can't be bashful about this stuff; you *have* to take a business-person's attitude toward drumming up business. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Kalen Smith Dallas, Texas Internet: mksmith@metronet.com CIS: 73177,366 -------------------------------------------------------- ** It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds. ** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 13:05:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Archive going somewhere Julius Ariail has offered to put the Index-l archives on a Gopher he is setting up at Georgia Southern University. This is an ideal solution to the archive problem. The FAQ and/or any other pertinent documents can also be kept there. As soon as the gopher is ready, I will post directions for access. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator P. S. Julius is Director of Libraries at Georgia Southern and author of the News from Index-l column in the ASI Newsletter--Keywords ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:03:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MCLAUGHB@CGSVAX.Claremont.Edu Subject: Program announcement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Saturday, February 19, 1994, the Southern California Chapter of the American Society of Indexers is sponsoring an introduction to Cindex, one of the leading stand-alone computer indexing programs. Frances Lennie of Indexing Research, Rochester, NY, will be discussing inexing with computers and the benefits of stand-alone indexing programs. She will also give a demonstration of Cindex and answer questions. The program will be held at the Velvet Turtle, Covina. Cost of the talk, demo, and luncheon is $20.00. Send reservations and check made out to ASI to Kate McGrath Lewis, 4828 Larwin Ave., Cypress, CA 90630. For further information or directions, contact Bonny McLaughlin at MCLAUGHB@CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU or 909-621-8555, ext. 3904. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:03:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: Re: JOURNAL ABSTRACTING AND INDEXING In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 25 JAN 1994 15:40:06 CST ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- AHA, here it is right from the horse's mouth: I've always suspected that the big indexers use (or modify) the author's abstract.... some would have us believe otherwise...but Jessica Milstead is one of THE experts on this ... she teaches indexing and abstrcting to folks who work for the biggies. >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >In the U.S., most of the big (collective) journal indexes do relatively >little abstracting; they use author abstracts or go bare. There are >exceptions, and from time to time an abstracting project comes along. I >have the impression that when abstracting is done, it may or may not be >combined with indexing. > >I doubt very seriously that there are distance learning courses on >abstracting in the U.S.; I have no idea about the UK. > >Jessica Milstead Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 09:52:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Janet K. Ilacqua" Subject: Re: JOURNAL ABSTRACTING AND INDEXING In-Reply-To: <199401241902.LAA12772@mail.netcom.com> from "[CKatie Izat" at Jan 24, 94 02:00:00 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I work as a freelance abstractor for a magazine called Library Currents. All my work is done strictly through the mail and usually takes up about 2 hours a month. I also have worked as a database indexer, cataloger, and freelance indexer of magazines. Right now, I am working as an indexer for the Environmental Protection Agency. My own impression is that there is work for database indexers, but the field does not normally require a library degree and is less well paid than librarians, about $20,000-25,000 a year. The particular job I have pays more than your typical indexer position because it required a MLS and we deal with confidential and enforcement sensitive materials. Database indexing also can get quite boring unless you can get promoted into a head indexer or management position. Most of the librarians where I work stay there because it is a steady job with benefits. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:34:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susannah@sco.COM Subject: Address to subscribe to COPYEDITING-L? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does anyone on this list have the correct LISTSERV address for the COPYEDITING-L list? Is this (the copyediting list) a useful one to read -- does it have a lot of useful professional tips? Thanks in advance, Susannah Skyer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:34:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Stephen E. Bach" Subject: International Internet Association ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm posting this in response to several emailings I've received recently. For those interested in registering with the International Internet Association and who missed the previous postings: You'll get fastest response by faxing a request for an application to 202-387-5446. You can leave a voice message requesting an application at 202-387-5445. You can email them at INFO@IIA.ORG Their mailing address is: Suite 852 2020 Pennsylvania Ave. Washington, D.C. 20006 According to an earlier posting this is a rented mailbox. It took them about 3 1/2 weeks to process my faxed application. The delay is apparently due to a huge response and to a limited number of volunteers to do the work. What you'll eventually receive is a log-in id with password, plus one toll number and one toll-free number. The 'toll-free' number is an 800 number, but you must pay $0.20/minute for time logged on. If you call the toll number for access you only pay whatever your long distance charges are to area code 908 (N.J.) I have not used the connection myself yet except to log on once to see that it is operational; it is (although the first time I called I got a busy signal). This was on the toll line. I haven't tried the toll-free number. Sorry, but I'm not going to broadcast the node access phone numbers. If you apply they will be sent to you. Stephen Bach sbach@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:35:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Stephen E. Bach" Subject: International Internet Association ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have received several messages asking for more information about the IIA. Obviously there is lots of interest in it. I cannot respond individually to all the messages. I think IIA is a bona fide effort. I haven't used the system but WHAT FOLLOWS is what you get when you log on after IIA has sent you a login and password. I logged on for a second time just to record this and log off. I don't have the time right now to do any exploring. When I tried to call them on the toll line it was busy, so I called on the 800 number and got through. Stephen Bach, Indexer sbach@well.sf.ca.us WHAT FOLLOWS: INTERNATIONAL INTERNET ASSOCIATION Welcome to the International Internet Association. The IIA was established to promote the free flow of information without regard to position or affiliation. This is your electronic home. While using it please entertain accordingly and mind the neighbors. This current unit is under production; new things will appear over time. You're encouraged to look around, tinker, and above all share your particular wealth of knowledge. It is our pleasure to have you online. **The IIA now has a FULL Usenet newsfeed with access to nearly 7000 newgroups from around the world! Invest in your future! Learn how to build the enterprise network at ComNet '94. January 24 - 27, 1994, Washington Convention Center, Washington, D.C. For more information call 800-225-4698. Main Menu Commands... Command Purpose ------- ------- Read_About_ComNet Information on the upcoming ComNet Conference Comment Send a comment or suggestion to the administrators Internet Internet Services (news, archie, gopher, wais, www) Mail Send and read mail Shell Escape to Unix shell Transfer File transfer tools Users Information about and talking to other users Utils Miscellaneous Unix utilities Help Help with this menu driven interface Quit Sign off Main Menu> quit Goodbye .. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:35:32 ECT Reply-To: Dave Pokorney Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Pokorney Subject: Money for Nothing and the Bits Are Free ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Folks, here is an update to the IIA advertisement for free Internet access that also required one to fax their charge card info in exchange.. Brock Meeks is a reporter for Communications Daily. enjoy, -poke ---- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 16:50:36 -0800 From: "Brock N. Meeks" Message-Id: <199401270050.QAA23405@well.sf.ca.us> To: com-priv@psi.com Subject: IIA Breaks Out Jacking in from the "You Gotta See This to Believe It" Port: Money for Nothing and the Bits Are Free ======================================= Washington, DC -- Here's the deal: The Internet is being held hostage by a community of entrenched techno-elitists. That's the premise of the International Internet Association (IIA), a nonprofit group that promises to give "anyone on the planet free Internet access," according to IIA Executive Director Max Robbins. Robbins held a press conference here today to flesh out what has been the Net's biggest mystery for the past several weeks. When IIA first announced its plan to provide free Internet access, the group was assailed as being a scam. Adding fuel that speculation was the fact that in order to process your account application, the IIA required that you provide them with a credit card number (preferably your own). Oh yeah, there were also those other little niggling details that didn't add up, such as the IIA's address in D.C. really being a rented post office box and that their net domain -- IIA.ORG -- didn't seem to exist. Robbins, dressed in a rafish multi-colored cardigan sweater and IIA turtle-neck T-shirt, acknowledged that his organization made "some rookie mistakes" in the beginning. But he insisted all was above board. He said the credit card number was needed because the company providing the 800 number access to the IIA host computers needed it to bill people, at 20 cents per minute. "But we always told people that's what it was for," he said. "And we do have a direct dial in number so people don't have to use the 800 number if they don't want to," he said. The organization was swamped with applications, some 40,000 have flooded in since November, Robbins said. But only 16,000 have actually been given accounts. He says they're working on the backlog. But let's cut to the chase. Robbins is a young, idealistic do-gooder that thinks the Internet has been co-opted by its techie users and his mission is to set it free. He figures that if he provides free Internet access to "the great unwashed" of the world, the Net will be a better place. About the only thing this self proclaimed "Idaho farm boy" (with a Georgetown University degree) didn't say is that his efforts would eventually bring world peace. May the force be with you, Max. The organization, which hasn't yet set any standards or procedures for taking on members, as any normal association is want to do, is being underwritten, apparently, but the good will of IDT, an international call-back racket out of New Jersey. The IDT scheme is brilliant. The company offers international callers the ability to call into the U.S. (on an 800 number), whereby, the IDT computers call your number back and give you dialtone from the good ol' U.S. of A. Using that dial tone, you can then make calls to anywhere in the world, which (technically) look as they they've originated from the U.S. Begin to get the picture? The upshot is that if your company is located in Rangoon, you can bypass the outrageous long distance rates that Rangoon Telecom and Telegraph normally charges, instead getting rates more in line with AT&T. IDT, which has received its share of grief from several countries for taking hard currency straight from their pockets, is headed Howard Jonas. For all its talk of good will and free access, the IIA seems to be nothing more than a front-loaded, money making machine for Jonas. The guy is a sharp entrepreneur and he saw dollar signs in those free IIA accounts. By providing the 800 number (which most people still think is always a free call) he saw a way to generate millions of dollars from anxious users thinking they were getting "free" Internet accounts. You do the math: Figure 40,000 users (if the IIA grows no bigger than current applications) dialing in 10 hours a month. If they use the 800 number that whole time, IDT racks in a whopping $4.8 million PER MONTH in access fees alone. Free my ass. Just how much is Jonas tied into the organization? Well, IIA lists their administrative offices being headquarted at 294 State St., Hackensack, N.J. Funny thing, but that's the same address as Jonas' company. The IIA "public relations" person at the press conference, Steve Rowe, pulls in a paycheck from... damn, you guessed it, IDT. And the boxes and wires that make up IIA's technology base have the same serial numbers listed in IDT's inventory data base and insurance papers. With all this free shit being given away, how does Robbins pay the rent? "I do some work for IDT," he said. "But we've had enough donations come in so that it basically pays my salary.," You have to admit, this kid Robbins is well meaning, if out to lunch, or maybe his idealism is just way out in front of his common sense. The group said it's supposed to have 501(c)3 status. Legally that makes them a charity. But in their press kit, under the "facilities" heading is an address for "Lobbying." Non-profits listed as 501(c)3 are expressly forbidden from lobbying, it makes the IRS nervous to think a charity would take money from my grandmother and then use it to take Congressmen to expensive lunches or send them to exotic resorts for speaking engagements. I pressed young Robbins on this apparent flaw: "Well, that's not really 'lobbying' in the pure sense of the word," he said. Turns out his idea of lobbying is what Apple likes to call "evangelism." Oh, did I mention that the "lobbying" office address is really home to the IIA lawyer? It is. So, does an organization like IIA do when demand outstripps supply? It goes begging. Literally. Only Robbins doesn't call it that. IIA has "place a bid for services" with U.S. telecommunications and service providers, he says. But when asked how he defined the word "bid," Robbins said: "Well, we asked them if they wanted to give us service." In other words, he wants companies to donate time or materials out of the goodness of their hearts. Robbins justifies this hat-in-hand procurement process by claiming that companies now making money off providing Internet service "have an obligation to give something back to the people." The world would be a better place, he said. Honest. In the meantime, Jonas is waiting in the wings, with some 16,000 and counting credit card numbers, listening to the sound of the "unwashed masses" dialing in, throwing money at his company's bottom line. It's all legal, all very shrewd. And Robbins? Hell, he has a good heart, some big dreams, and an impossible task. Write him, won't you: max@iia.org Or send a check... if the charity status holds up, you can claim it on your taxes, right there under the heading: Donation to World Peace. Meeks out... =========================================================================