From: SMTP%"@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU:LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET" 1-AUG-1994 18:32:15.61 To: SOLIBJA CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9407D" Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 18:33:34 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.7f) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9407D" To: Julius Ariail ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 14:07:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DWIGHT WALKER Subject: Indexing the Internet group of articles ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I was approached about this problem by a librarian in a small private setup. They had a collection on issues like famine, third world, Africa, Asia, politics etc. To keep up to date they received 'echos' or conferences on their library PC which had BBS software running. The guy wanted to know if I could create a way of retrieving articles out of such a pot pouree 'live'. At the time I didn't know. Apparently Mr Chen below has a program that generates machine-interrogated text data bases. Two points stand out: hypertext links will definitely open up to individuals way of meandering through the complex web of info. On the other hand up-to-date thesauri of preferred terms would guarantee continuity from old terms to new etc. This definitely an area where the arts and science/technology overlap. Concept forming is often better mastered by arts people but the technology of producing fast and dependable retrieval systems will rely on good data design. I know of one Australian-made product for free text retrieval called ISYS. It is used in Australian Courts of Law to extract articles/hansard for prosecution and defence lawyers. The judge couldn't believe the speed of retrieval. Apparently it has sped proceedings up a great deal. The problem then of access to each systems' indexing system could evolve from World Wide Web or similar linking and creative navigating systems. Over to you... Dwight Bibiolography: 'Collaborative Systems: Solving the Vocabulary Problem' by Hsinchun Chen, IEEE Computer, May 1994, Vol.27 No.5, pp.58-66. Computer (ISSN 0018-9162), published by the IEEE Computer Society. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 14:07:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 21 JUL 1994 12:24:22 CDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Awake, awake ye sleepers! I have a potential problem with editors of a 15 vol. set. Here it is: 1. The series is a 15 vol. set of the translations of the works of Peter Martyr Vermigli (fl. 1500s). The editors are "deep" into this scholarship and have reluctantly allowed me to use standard Chicago Manual of Style footnoting instead of the esoteric abbreviations that "everybody" understands. The have made other "concessions" that will, in my view, make the material more accessible to younger, less knowledgeable scholars. So far, so good. 2. The editors wanted a favored grad student to make the index. We axed that...but let the student go ahead and prepare what he thought should be indexable--a fairly good thesaurus of sorts. BUT NOW THE EDITORS WANT SEPARATE SCRIPTURE, SUBJECT, AND NAME INDEXES. I ALWAYS MAKE SEPARATE SCRIPTURE INDEXES BECAUSE THAT WHAT ONE FINDS IN THEOLOGICAL WORKS, BUT I'M IN FAVOR OF COMBINING SUBJECTS AND NAMES...IN FACT, I WON'T DO IT ANY OTHER WAY UNLESS YOU FOLKS CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. SO, LET ME HEAR FROM YOU. Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:46:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet group of articles ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dwight, Sounds interesting, particularly the hypertext and fulltext access methods. Have you looked at ZyIndex? It is not a typical information storage and retrieval program, it operates on the DOS directory and file structure and builds indexes from file contents. It would seem to be a natural for the BBS type problem you mentioned. Norm +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:46:48 ECT Reply-To: David White Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David White Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? In-Reply-To: <199407252357.AA15679@eskimo.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As both a user and preparer of indexes to theological works, my preference is to incorporate the names within the subject index. This saves the user the trouble of having to look in two indexes for related material. For example, if one were researching the theology of John Calvin and its influence in modern theology, it would be better to find the headings "Calvin, John" and "Calvinism" in the same index and, possibly on the same page rather than separated by several pages and in two separate indexes. I just happened to pull off the shelf a biography of John Calvin which has 5 separate indexes (Calvin's Life, Calvin's Writings, Calvin's Doctrines, Geneva, and Names). Rather than just looking for the heading "Bucer," I first have to find the appropriate index (if I happened to notice that there are multiple choices) and then look up the heading. This is a real time waster. Another problem I have noticed with separate name indexes is that good indexing practices are abandoned and the name is often followed by a long string of page numbers. In a subject index (and in a name index for that matter) these should be broken down with subheadings. A 15 vol. work would only serve to exacerbate the problems I mentioned. D. Lowell White ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:47:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? In-Reply-To: <199407252358.AA00275@metronet.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, Paula Presley wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- [.....] > 2. The editors wanted a favored grad student to make the index. We axed > that...but let the student go ahead and prepare what he thought should > be indexable--a fairly good thesaurus of sorts. BUT NOW THE EDITORS WANT > SEPARATE SCRIPTURE, SUBJECT, AND NAME INDEXES. I ALWAYS MAKE SEPARATE > SCRIPTURE INDEXES BECAUSE THAT WHAT ONE FINDS IN THEOLOGICAL WORKS, BUT > I'M IN FAVOR OF COMBINING SUBJECTS AND NAMES...IN FACT, I WON'T DO IT > ANY OTHER WAY UNLESS YOU FOLKS CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. > > SO, LET ME HEAR FROM YOU. > > Paula Presley I don't think you're gonna like this, but actually, separate name indexes are pretty common -- esp when a work is very heavy on personal names. Ditto separate indexes of geographic names. I've done them both when the project called for it. (It's no different from a separate recipe index for a cookbook....) If you're using CINDEX, you can easily add to two separate indexes at once. Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds, we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:47:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: K.Lyle@sheffield.ac.uk Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- BUT NOW THE EDITORS WANT > SEPARATE SCRIPTURE, SUBJECT, AND NAME INDEXES. I ALWAYS MAKE SEPARATE > SCRIPTURE INDEXES BECAUSE THAT WHAT ONE FINDS IN THEOLOGICAL WORKS, BUT > I'M IN FAVOR OF COMBINING SUBJECTS AND NAMES...IN FACT, I WON'T DO IT > ANY OTHER WAY UNLESS YOU FOLKS CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. > > > SO, LET ME HEAR FROM YOU. > The fewer indexes the better, I believe: just one call for the user of the index to make, instead of several. Also it might be difficult for user (and indexer) to separate subjects from names, resulting in duplication at best and frustration at worst. Kathleen Lyle ====================================================================== Kathleen M. Lyle Technical Editor, Applied Probability Trust, Hicks Building, The University, Sheffield S3 7RH, UK Phone +742 824269 Fax +742 729782 ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 11:48:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DWIGHT WALKER Subject: Re[1]: Indexing the Internet group of articles ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- No, can you expand on ZyIndex. Is it shareware or public domain indexing software? I could get in contact with the little special library again re their BBS indexing if you could send the information along. They're in the heart of Sydney near Central Station. It is good to see others working through the problems of information access at the grass roots level - PCs, BBSes, Internet. Bye Dwight :-) Randwick, Sydney, NSW, Australia PS Where I work, at a small publishing firm, we are looking at electronic publishing in the next year or 2 and these issues may come in after the fact. Currently we produce literature that is unindexed, so being online and indexed would help retrieval and dissemination no doubt. Keep in touch. DW ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 12:43:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? In-Reply-To: <199407252356.AA26068@mailer.fsu.edu> from "Paula Presley" at Jul 25, 94 02:07:36 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- When I was a full-time freelance indexer, I was frequently called upon to produce separate subject and name indexes. This happened most often in legal materials (textbooks, encyclopedias, and the like). I'd have to produce a subject index, an index of names of important persons, a table of legal cases, and an index of popular names of laws. On occasion, I've had to produce separate subject and name indexes for nonlegal books. One that comes to mind is a book on Eastern European cinema. Another was a book of the letters of a Nebraska author. I prepared a subject index and an index of the names of people to whom the author had written. I've encountered the subject index/name index a number of times, and it doesn't bother me. Actually, I find it rather a pleasure. My method was to make several "passes" through the manuscript and prepare the shortest indexes first. I'd then move on to the longest index, which would inevitably be the subject index. I got a real feeling of accomplishment to have completed several indexes and have only one or two more to go. I'd say go for it! The separate subject index and name index will make the encyclopedia even easier for your readers to use. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hblumber@mailer.fsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 14:14:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: Re: separate name & subj. idxs? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 25 Jul 94 14:07:36 +0700." ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Paula-- I say combine those indexes. If you don't, it's awfully difficult to make cross-references between, say, Thomism and Aquinas, Thomas (saint). IMHO. Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 15:53:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DWIGHT WALKER Subject: Re[1]: separate name & subj. idxs? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- May be you could if there are not many names (less than 5 or 10). The only problem is if later you want to extract the names from the subject list there are no unique 'access points'. I'd be in favour of creating a names one first (it's the quickest) then merging it later if you find there are so few references to bother. I know tidying up the sub-headings will take time but the hassle of researching all the volumes again for keywords would be worth it doing it on one pass. That's my experience at esoteric things like astronomy speaking. It usually adds up to alot of extra work if you try and add features after the fact. Another thought: have names under a heading 'people' and cross reference or double entry all the other name references to it. That would save you from 'see under the name of the person' type of vague entries. Dwight Sydney, Australia Reply to message text: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Awake, awake ye sleepers! I have a potential problem with editors of a 15 vol. set. Here it is: 1. The series is a 15 vol. set of the translations of the works of Peter Martyr Vermigli (fl. 1500s). The editors are "deep" into this scholarship and have reluctantly allowed me to use standard Chicago Manual of Style footnoting instead of the esoteric abbreviations that "everybody" understands. The have made other "concessions" that will, in my view, make the material more accessible to younger, less knowledgeable scholars. So far, so good. 2. The editors wanted a favored grad student to make the index. We axed that...but let the student go ahead and prepare what he thought should be indexable--a fairly good thesaurus of sorts. BUT NOW THE EDITORS WANT SEPARATE SCRIPTURE, SUBJECT, AND NAME INDEXES. I ALWAYS MAKE SEPARATE SCRIPTURE INDEXES BECAUSE THAT WHAT ONE FINDS IN THEOLOGICAL WORKS, BUT I'M IN FAVOR OF COMBINING SUBJECTS AND NAMES...IN FACT, I WON'T DO IT ANY OTHER WAY UNLESS YOU FOLKS CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. SO, LET ME HEAR FROM YOU. Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 15:54:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MCLAUGHB@CGSVAX.claremont.edu Subject: ASI-SoCal Fall Conference, 10/08/94 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- American Society of Indexers Southern California Chapter presents... Your Future in Indexing ASI-SoCal's First Annual Fall Conference For Immediate Release Monday, July 18, 1994 Contact: Anne Leach, (818) 963-1895 in California To "specialize" or not to specialize? That is a question facing information handlers as we face a future of rapidly changing technologies--the electronic library, full-text searching, document delivery, and "automatic" indexing. What effects will these innovations have on our professional lives? This all-day meeting will address concerns of indexers, technical writers, academics, medical and legal librarians, and other information professionals. Four panels of experts will answer questions regarding the shape and availability of work, training opportunities, marketing options, and special problems and solutions, in four key areas: technical documentation, medicine, law, and scholarly works. Additionally, there will be a discussion by experts and publishers of electronic and CD-ROM documents, presenting a vision of our online future. Costa Mesa will be the site of this seminar--ASI-SoCal's first annual Fall Conference--to be held Saturday, October 8, 1994, at the Westin South Coast Plaza Hotel. We've scheduled this first annual conference for the Columbus Day three-day weekend, so why not plan to make it a holiday for yourself and your family? You'll have a chance to rub elbows with other professionals, and be able to have some Southern California fun besides. The Westin South Coast Plaza is 20 minutes from Disneyland, five minutes from Orange County's John Wayne Airport (free transportation to the hotel) and you can walk to the South Coast Repertory Theater and the Orange Counter Performing Arts Center, take stroll in the sculpture garden, and shop-til-you-drop at the famous South Coast Plaza mall. The registration fee for all the conference seminars and lunch is $65 for ASI members ($75 for non-members) if paid by September 15. After September 15, the fee is $70 ($80). To register, send your check, payable to ASI-SoCal, to ASI Conference c/o Jim Parish, 4338 Gentry Avenue #1, Studio City, CA 91604. To reserve a room at the Westin, call 1-800-228-3000 and ask for the special American Society of Indexers' Friday-Saturday-Sunday package rate of $89 per day. The direct number for the Westin South Coast Plaza is 1-714-540-2500. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 13:34:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HairyLarry@aol.com Subject: Re: Separate name & subj. indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree with Maryann Corbett and Paula Presley that separate indexes cause problems for the index user. In certain academic fields they are almost universal in scholarly works, but IMHO this is an indication of inbred traditional practice rather than any attempt to consider the needs of the index user. A few of the comments in response to Paula's query also indicate indexers may be subject to this failing, as well. Multiple indexes are NOT self-evidently easy to use for many people who may need to find material in a book, even a very sophisticated academic work or large collection. While the authors and editors of such works may see their audience as fellow academics familiar with such practices, when indexers are given an opportunity to express a professional opinion, they should consider ease of access for ALL potential users. Larry Harrison Hairylarry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 13:35:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ned Bedinger (qwa@u.washington.edu)" Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet group of articles In-Reply-To: <9407252318.AA01423@hardy.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, DWIGHT WALKER wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- . . . > On the other hand up-to-date thesauri of preferred terms would guarantee > continuity from old terms to new etc. . . . > The problem then of access to each systems' indexing system could evolve from > World Wide Web or similar linking and creative navigating systems. > This is fascinating. Could you elaborate on the system level of indexing? What constitutes a system, and are they typically indexed as of now? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:53:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BALIPETZ@ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: Separate name & subj. indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It seems to me that Larry Harrison's dictum that indexers should provide ease of access for ALL potential users is the same sort of fiction as the notions that librarians can and should provide free= and impartial service for ALL potential readers. It cannot be done. We should not deceive ourselves: No index can be complete enough or simple-minded enough in design to satisfy all potential users. And any index that is distractingly long or time- consuming to use will be unsatisfactory to some types of users. I happen to like separate indexes in very large works, because they are much faster to search than single indexes (on well considered questions). If the principal users of an index will be specialists with clear objectives, then why not expect the occasional novice user to have to notice that the index is in sections? No law says that an index MUST be pitched to the lowest common denominator of user skill, to the disadvantage of skilled users. The best course, I would suggest, is to think and learn about the people most likely to use the index and try to provide whatever is best for them. Ben-Ami Lipetz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:55:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DWIGHT WALKER Subject: Re[1]: Indexing the Internet group of articles ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 'System' constitutes: (1) a text database based on documents e.g. WordPerfect files or correspondence, (2) a structured database like an OPAC, (3) a bibliographic database like a CDROM juke box used to search for articles e.g. SilverPlatter, (4) online databases like DIALOG. The 'system level of indexing': (1) preindexed on all words excluding stop words using something like ISYS full text retrieval software, (2) precoordinated terms say Library of Congress Sub. Headings or inhouse list of preferred terms using something like microCAIRS to index them, (3) preindexed using a commercial search engine like SPIRS with SilverPlatter, (4) structured index on such things as author, free text index on the body of the articles. 'Indexed as of now': (1) no, but can have an indexing system imposed on them, (2) depends on system. Virginia Tech Library System (VTLS) as a brute force option to search every record until a hit. It also has the ability to build into the MARC record new keywords to search on. This is more integrated for later use. E.g. Leyland Morris == Mini Minor. Mini Minor was added by me as a cross reference to Leyland Morris or it would not have been found in the subject headings list. (3) always indexed, can't be updated until next CDROM released (4) dynamically indexed and transparent to the user as to what indexing is being used. No doubt inverted indexing. Any more questions here? I have exhausted my knowledge of current computerised information bases. There is a lots of scope to develop the connections between these various forms (and others I haven't mentioned). I feel the Internet has a large part to play. Also the upgrading of communications to optical fibre and ISDN in the next 2 years. I rang Optus, our private competitor to Telecom, and they predicted ISDN (digital connection) to the home in Australia in about 2 years or so. This would facilitate the transport layer at least. As indexers and cataloguers we are in the box seat to try and link the disparate systems up. Any comers on other scenarios? Over to you... Dwight Sydney, Australia 61-2-3986726 (h) PS Who sent this question? Just curious... Darned good questions!!! Reply to message text: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 25 Jul 1994, DWIGHT WALKER wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- . . . > On the other hand up-to-date thesauri of preferred terms would guarantee > continuity from old terms to new etc. . . . > The problem then of access to each systems' indexing system could evolve from > World Wide Web or similar linking and creative navigating systems. > This is fascinating. Could you elaborate on the system level of indexing? What constitutes a system, and are they typically indexed as of now? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:56:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Re: Separate name & ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Another opinion on separate name and subject indexes--- I just finished indexing two books that, in retrospect, should have had separate name and subject indexes. One was a history of wars (from the beginning of time to the present) with many, many, many names of people and battlefields. Because of the lenght of the index (376 manuscript pages), separating the index into a name and a battle index would have been helpful to the user, I think. The other book was an encyclopedic account of soul/rhythm and blues stars. Again, two indexes, one of song titles and one of artists, would have made this one more comprehensible too. In general, I prepare single indexes for books, but I have no objection to doing two. Marilyn Rowland freelance indexer/writer Mrowland@AOL.com