From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.eduFri Aug 25 11:00:21 1995 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:55:24 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9507B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: johno@spry.com Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!) In-Reply-To: <199507071824.LAA02485@homer.spry.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Richard Evans wrote: >My "backup" is a 286/12 portable that cost me $200 in a second hand >shop. With DOS 6 installed, it runs CINDEX plenty fast enough. Hmm. Interesting idea. I have a 286 PC at home that would function well as a DOS-based backup. My question is, how do you connect the two? What hardware and software are you using? Thanks for the good tip. John O. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * John Overbaugh johno@spry.com Technical Documentation CompuServe Internet Division Makers of Internet In A Box and Internet Office Award-Winning PC to Internet Connectivity Solutions * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: MeSH ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thank you to all who answered my query re ordering the MeSH medical reference thesauri. I've just ordered the set, since I don't know which one or two will work best for me. Janet ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Janet Perlman jperlman@aol.com ^ ^ Southwest Indexing 602-569-7302 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:07:55 +0700." ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John Overbaugh writes: >You know, I'm convinced that some day, every home in America will have two >computers, like many have two tv's now. Amazing, isn't it? My two cents: We bought a Commodore about when our first child was born; he's twelve now, and we now have four computers in the house. It IS amazing. (OTOH, we're driving a '76 Olds with more rust than solid metal, so there are tradeoffs...) Maryann Corbett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John, You wrote: > >What I mean is that you'll never index the whole thing--it's a lot >like searching for quarks: at the very instant you're indexing it, it >grows by several files. Gee, this reminds me of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in which the very act of observation changes the system that is being observed. :-) >Now THERE'S an idea! That's a really good suggestion. If we were to >create an index of the Web or even the Internet, and then request that >people posting information on the Web submit to the index (like a >Library of Congress?), we could probably keep on top of things. It >could easily be done with existing WWW technology (HTML forms). The >only drawback is that the 'index' produced would not be a professional >index; it'd be indexed by content providers. But perhaps >the well-designed form could even help with that. > >John O. Excellent idea! Carefully designed forms would impose vocabulary control, at least at the top level (unless the content providers are really clueless and miscategorize an entry), then professional indexers could massage the subentries. Having a cosmic-level thesaurus, however, would help prevent a drift factor from creeping in if there are a large number of indexers doing the "massaging". Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Trottier Subject: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi! I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice on how to estimate a job. For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour. I am looking forward to read your answers. Thank you Suzanne Trottier, MLS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:39:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CRONSHAW@BOOTES.UNM.EDU Subject: New member request - Russian book needs index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear List Members, To introduce myself to the list, let me say briefly that I index (and otherwise work with manuscripts) books dealing with Latin American and Hispanic themes. My competence with Spanish is at the "near native speaker" level. Even books in English, but that deal with Latin American themes, benefit by having a bilingual indexer, because the indexer is sensitive to accent marks and other niceties of the language. Anything to make an editor's job easier... One of my clients at McGraw-Hill in San Francisco seeks an indexer skilled in Russian to index a Russian textbook (language). Please contact Richard Mason directly at (415) 393-0241 - telephone. It would be great if you mentioned that you saw the announcement on the list. Thanks, folks. I look forward to learning lots on this list. Best regards, Francine Cronshaw East Mountain Editing Services PO Box 1895 Tijeras, New Mexico 87059 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:40:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: MeSH ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> Can somebody provide me with an address and ordering information for the >> medical thesaurus MeSH -- all the various volumes. >> >> I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance! >> >> Janet Perlman >> jperlman@aol.com >> > There is a hypertext link to the National Library of Medicine MeSH list - publications are free for download - about 150-200KB each. See Aust. Soc of Indexers Resource page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/resource.htm or point gopher browser to gopher.nlm.nih.gov port 70 and choose online mesh (gopher://gopher.nlm.nih.gov:70/11/online/mesh) Bye Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:40:37 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Dedicated indexing programs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Fellow indexers, I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I'd appreciate knowing the following. 1. Which program do you use? 2. Overall, how would you rate it on a 1(lowest)-5(highest) scale? 3. What features do you like best? 4. What features do you like least? 5. What features doesn't it have that you wish it did? 6. If you had to make the purchase decision again now, would you buy the same program? If not, what would you get and why? To save bandwidth, please reply to me directly. I will compile the results and would be happy to share them with those interested or the entire list if that seems appropriate. Thanks for your cooperation and help. Fred Leise ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: henderson@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs In-Reply-To: <01HSP765A3JM000LXF@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like a copy of the results you receive from this request. Thanks! Martha ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martha V. Henderson, Ed.D. Voice: (318)357-4403 Professor and Coordinator Library Automation FAX: (318)357-4470 Northwestern State University Natchitoches, LA 71457 Henderson@alpha.nsula.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 10 Jul 1995 Locatelli@aol.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Fellow indexers, > > I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering > purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would > appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I'd appreciate > knowing the following. > > 1. Which program do you use? > 2. Overall, how would you rate it on a 1(lowest)-5(highest) scale? > 3. What features do you like best? > 4. What features do you like least? > 5. What features doesn't it have that you wish it did? > 6. If you had to make the purchase decision again now, would you buy the same > program? If not, what would you get and why? > > To save bandwidth, please reply to me directly. I will compile the results > and would be happy to share them with those interested or the entire list if > that seems appropriate. Thanks for your cooperation and help. > > Fred Leise > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the >person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for >indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice on >how to estimate a job. > >For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on >the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour. > >I am looking forward to read your answers. > >Thank you > >Suzanne Trottier, MLS Well, I've been doing this a few years, but I figure my average speed at about 10pp./hour. When I started indexing, it was probably half that. It will vary a great deal, of course, depending on the density of the material and how many posts per page you end up doing. But 10pp./hour is the average for me, figuring in philosophy texts and sports biographies. I charge *per indexable page*, though, not by the hour. (I got stuck a couple times doing it that way when I was starting out.) The faster you can work, the less you end up making per hour, if you charge by the hour. Because I'm located in Texas, I can undercut the East Coast/West Coast typical rates by a bit and still come out with a comfortable margin, which helps. Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:34:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Original Post: Subj: How do you estimate your job? Date: Mon, Jul 10, 1995 8:48 AM CST >>>... But I am looking for some advice on how to estimate a job. For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour.... >>> Hi Suzanne, This is a deep subject. In my view, you have to think about two parallel analyses. First, the question of how much time the job will take you. The best way is to get a significant sample of the actual work you will be doing (trying to get the client to give you a *representative* sample) of at least 10 pages, a chapter if possible. Ask the client if there are limitations or guidelines as to how heavily this material should be indexed. Technical material often requires more entries per page than general material. Also ask for a sample index from another work if they want a particular format. With all this in mind, read the sample material and actually index at least 10 pages, keeping track of time. Use this as a basis for the whole job, adding a bit of fudge factor and rounding up where possible in case there are denser passages. Use this time estimate for work scheduling purposes, and figuring out whether you can meet the client's deadline. It is also involved in figuring the bid, the other parallel analysis. The bid to the client probably should not show an hourly rate for indexing. This can result in making you appear as (and behave like) an employee of the client. It also makes the client wonder whether you are a fast worker, whether they are in for a surprise if the job takes a lot longer than your estimate, and may make them try to negotiate you to a lower rate. You may want to show such a rate for extra services, such as proofing or preparing camera-ready copy. The hourly rate for indexing is really most useful as information for your own use in making decisions about your indexing business. Think of yourself as providing a service, and the client is interested in the total cost of the service for this job, not in how you figure your costs and income. Preparing the bid may be as simple as deciding whether to accept their fixed price and, if you decide to accept it, spelling out the terms of the job. (The American Society of Indexers has a contract brochure which is a good checklist of the issues you may want to get in writing before you begin. Deadline, form of delivery and payment terms are the obvious minimums.) If the client offers you a fixed price, such as $ per page, you can multiply this out and take that as your gross income for the job. Then subtract any costs you must cover within this amount. This might include paper, diskettes, phone/fax charges, reference materials or trips to the library to do research, shipping, etc. Sometimes the client will pay shipping by giving you their FedEx account number, or perhaps shipping is not a factor if you are local. After all these subtractions you have your net income for the job, and you can divide by your time estimate to figure out what you are getting paid per hour. This should enable you to figure out whether you can afford to take the job or not. If the client asks for a bid from you without a clue as to the amount they expect to pay, you can start with the time estimate and multiply out by the rate you need to charge for your time. Remember that you get no benefits and have nothing withheld for taxes from this money, so don't undercharge. You really only get to keep about half of it. Be sure to spell out anything you expect the client to pay for from the list of cost items mentioned above. I guess that's about it, except to say that good estimating is a question of experience and judgment. Good judgment is developed through a process of learning from the consequences of bad judgment. Good luck! Regards Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 15:35:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: >...I am looking for some advice on >how to estimate a job. > You can't really estimate your first exopsure to a new job without doing a sample. Your method is correct, but you won't know how many pages per hour you can do until you try a few pages. I do software manuals, which typically have lots of illustrations and examples but modest amounts of text. I have one client that I consistently average seven pages an hour for; another consistently averages ten pages per hour. I have done an estimate on some historical documents wherein the text was much denser and only averaged four pages per hour. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Hardware backups (AOL subscribers can ignore!) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >The question that I posed to AOL has, What does everybody use as a backup >against hardware failures (assuming, of course, that EVERYBODY backs up >critical files regularly)? A second computer? Rental? Borrow from >a friend? Live-in technician? Prayer? > >Carolyn Weaver We have four computers in the house (they just accumulate, somehow...), three of which will run Macrex. Macrex comes with a Backup to Disk feature which we use, not once but twice, after indexing each chapter, so that we have complete backups on two separate floppy disks. Two computers are desktop models (a 486 and a 386), but our third computer is an old (1986?) Toshiba T1100 laptop with 640K RAM, mono screen, no hard disk, but two 720Kb floppy disk drives. It will run off a rechargeable battery for about four hours. We take it with us when we're away from home and need to get an index finished to a deadline, but it's also nice to know it's there if the power goes out. We're fairly well covered (touch wood). Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate your ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You could get paid by the hour, by the indexable page, or by the entry (per entry in the final index). There are indexers paid each way, and some industries pay one way rather than the other. As some have already said, if you are paid by the hour and you're fast, you don't make a fair wage if you report your time honestly. On the other hand, it may be advantageous. With many years of indexing experiences (but no MSL - an MA in mgmt), I have never been able to get anybody to pay me above $25/hour, just FYI. The most reasonable way is by the indexable page. Rates can range from $2 to 5 and 6 if you've got a terrific client with funding or some other special circumstance -- but that's rare. Page size (some books are oversized), number of entries per page you expect (a reference book vs. social science discussion, for example), and primarily your speed all influence the per page rate. Hope these guidelines help you out. Good luck! Janet Perlman ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Janet Perlman jperlman@aol.com ^ ^ Southwest Indexing 602-569-7302 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shore Editorial Services Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Who says the "average" rate for indexing is between $20 and $30 per hour? Not so in scholarly publishing, at least! Would that it were! Don't know about others, but I charge a per-page rate for indexing (not an hourly rate) and most of my University press clients seem to consider this the norm for indexing. I do, however, charge an hourly rate for editing, proofreading, etc. University presses pay approximately $3.00 per page for indexing, give or take a little. Lys Ann Shore, Shore Editorial Services Lshore@paladin.iusb.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:01:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Isawriter@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, Suzanne.... I just finished my first indexing job following the KISS principal. Before bidding, I requested and got two sample chapters of the book. I then submitted a per page price and stuck to it. Per hour, I might have earned about a third of minimum wage because I was learning while doing. That's all. Larry's advice about the ASI forms is good. I made a printable contract and attachment which is very closely modeled on the ASI contract and attachment. Good luck! Craig Brown :{) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>Now THERE'S an idea! That's a really good suggestion. If we were to >>create an index of the Web or even the Internet, and then request that >>people posting information on the Web submit to the index (like a >>Library of Congress?), we could probably keep on top of things. It >>could easily be done with existing WWW technology (HTML forms). The >>only drawback is that the 'index' produced would not be a professional >>index; it'd be indexed by content providers. But perhaps >>the well-designed form could even help with that. >> >>John O. > >Excellent idea! Carefully designed forms would impose vocabulary >control, at least at the top level (unless the content providers are >really clueless and miscategorize an entry), then professional indexers >could massage the subentries. Having a cosmic-level thesaurus, however, >would help prevent a drift factor from creeping in if there are a large >number of indexers doing the "massaging". > This solves a problem with getting material to index on the internet. Unlike paper based material, it is hard to nail down copy to index on the internet - who has an up-to-date directory for starters! The USENET newsgroups are a pretty chaotic hierarchy. A good index of that would be great too. There's tons of work there too. Some Internet Yellow Pages have a go at it. It could become a Web page to browse when you're searching for content on a particular topic. One final thing about Web indexing came up in Melbourne at the conference. Mike Middleton from Qld Uni of Technology Faculty of Info Tech talked about having keywords built into all Web home pages. I use HTML Writer. The latest version has a template. When you load it, it prompts for a title, a short phrase about the pages and keywords. When the page is created there are meta words in the header to identify the page. I just created the Sydney Linux Users Group pages: http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/SLUG/index.html Have a look at the source on Netscape | View. It is an interesting start to embedding subject entries right in the code. Bye Dwight PS HTML Writer home page: http://lal.cs.byu.edu/people/nosack/ email: html-writer@byu.edu ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne, Congratulations on getting your first contract! IMHO, $20/hr is too low, regardless of where you're located. You're going to produce a professional quality index, regardless of the fact that this is your first contract and $20/hr is not a professional-level rate. I think that ASI said that the average is $32.50/hour. Is your client locked into an hourly rate structure? A per page rate, as Larry Harrison indicated has far more advantages, not only to you (especially if you're a fast indexer) but to your client who will know from the outset the maximum you will charge. Some pitfalls to watch out for in technical texts include tables, which can generate a large number of entries on a page in some circumstances. In software manuals, you may have a large number of menu commands to be indexed, especially if the application is one with many small "applets" containing their own menus. And this balloons even further if the product works with a GUI where you're also indexing window names, dialog box names, etc. Symbols, which are usually double-posted, are another bugaboo if there are a lot of them. If it is a programming manual, you may find the need to index a large number of language components (function names, message and event names, etc.). If it is a manual for electronic hardware, you may find yourself having to index a large number of front panel indicators, switches, circuit boards, etc., not to mention troubleshooting and other procedures. These are some of the types of things that I've typically found can add to the average number of entries per page (a biggie when setting per page rates) and time (important when giving the client a ballpark for maximum time when charging hourly rates). When negotiating your rates with the client, it would be a good idea to scan as much of the book as possible. Often the first few chapters are introductory or mostly theoretical narrative and may not generate as many entries as those later on in the book where you get into the nitty-gritty of procedures, tables, etc. At least that has been my experience. Yet another important consideration when setting rates is the type of software you'll use for indexing. Embedded indexes are more difficult and time-consuming to create and that should be accounted for in your rate structure and time estimates. Unless you create the index in dedicated indexing software before embedding from a page-order sort, you may find yourself spending a huge amount of time editing an embedded index. (IMHO, creating the index in dedicated indexing software first permits you to write a far better index, but that too adds to the time involved.) Hope this helps some. Good luck! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Hi! > >I got my first contract in indexing. I will meet next week with the >person to negociate the contract. I know that the average rate for >indexing is between $20 and $30/hour. But I am looking for some advice on >how to estimate a job. > >For example : a technical book of 500 pages. Do you estimate your time on >the number of pages, like 15 minutes/indexable pages x 25$/hour. > >I am looking forward to read your answers. > >Thank you > > >Suzanne Trottier, MLS > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:04:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Massachusetts Chapter Summer Meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Massachusetts Chapter, American Society of Indexers Summer Meeting: Saturday, August 5, 1995, 1 pm Name and Subject Authority Files What are they? How can they help Indexers? Speakers: Jean A Thompson, SUNY Albany Alison Chipman, Art and Architecture Thesaurus Art & Architecture Thesaurus 62 Stratton Road, Williamstown, MA 02167 (413) 458-2151/(413) 458-3757 (fax) Jean Thompson will explain what authority records are, how to decipher the codes involved, and take a more detailed look at name authorities: personal, computer, and geographical. Jean is a librarian at the State University of New York at Albany, and has had a long career as a book cataloger. Two years ago, she became interested in indexing when she worked with a member of the Maine Indexers Group. When he lamented how difficult it was to locate current information about people while constructing indexes, she suggested he try using the Library of Congress authority records she had relied on as a cataloger. Alison Chipman will discuss the use of subject authorities, citing examples of existing authorities, how to find out about authorities for specific subject fields, and how to use them while wrestling with an index, including using automated authorities together with computer-assisted indexing programs (like CINDEX and Macrex). Alison is Authority Editor at Art & Architecture Thesaurus. She has done periodical indexing for AAT and has completed several book indexes. Her experience with thesaurus construction and term research should pertinent for all types of indexing. "Authority control," Alison Chipman says, "is not a new thing for veteran indexers; they've probably done it all their working lives without giving it that term. It's library jargon for a structured way of ensuring consistency of language among indexers and catalogers within the same collection or system." Directions: Stratton Road is off Route 2, just east of Williamstown center. To get to Stratton Road: >From Route 7: Turn onto Route 2 East in the center of Williamstown. Travel about 1.5 miles and turn right onto Stratton Road. >From the west, via Route 2: When you come to the intersection of Routes 2 and 7, stay on Route 2 East. Travel about 1.5 miles and turn right onto Stratton Road. >From the east, via Route 2: When you cross the town line from North Adams into Williamstown, look for Stratton Road on your left, shortly after Luce Road, also on your left. Turn left onto Stratton. Once you're on Stratton Road, continue past the Williamstown Medical Associates to the second house on the left, a long, thin, brickfronted house. Look for number 62 on the mailbox. For more information, contact Alison Chipman at AAT or Diane Benison, 508/393-3447. Mark your calendars now!!! *****American Society of Indexers, Massachusetts Chapter Fall Conference**** Indexing Education: Trainees to Master Indexers Saturday, October 21, 1995 , 8:00 am to 4:30 pm Simmons College, Boston, MA Barbara Cohen will present her ASI Professional Development Workshop designed to train experienced indexers (master indexers) in the art of hiring and training new or relatively inexperienced indexers. In addition, several Master/Trainee pairs will share their approaches and experiences in working together to help conference participants decide what sort of master/trainee relationship might be best for them and to learn how to go about designing and implementing such an arrangement. We will also discuss other ways to learn indexing or to improve upon your indexing skills. For registration information and to help in conference planning, contact Marilyn Rowland (508/457-4525 or Mrowland@aol.com) or Diane Benison.(508/393-3447 or 76620.460@compuserve.com). Marilyn Rowland President, Massachusetts Chapter ASI Falmouth, MA mrowland@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:05:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne asked how indexers estimate jobs, and both Dick Evans and Larry Harrison recommended asking for a sample. I heartily agree. Every job is different, and you can't use an average over all different kinds of material, unless you expect to come out ahead sometimes, and way behind others. I also liked Larry's suggestion that you deduct your expenses before figuring your hourly rate. I've never done that, but I do think that the hourly we tell ourselves we are making is in reality about half, as Larry said. We have to keep that in mind, if we are going to look at ourselves as professionals and command the respect we deserve. Lowballing, undercutting other indexers, selling ourselves cheaply--all denigrate the profession and lower your own image in the eyes of your clients and colleagues, who are all sources of potential referrals and future jobs. The only time I feel you can justify suggesting a rate you KNOW is low is when you are a new indexer, and you so inform the client, adding that as you gain experience your rates will go up accordingly. But even a new indexer's time is valuable, and should not be undervalued. I don't think it should matter where you live, not these days when we have the Internet and Federal Express, etc. (And Federal Express costs the same no matter where you are.) We are all in this together, and your success is my success as well. Good luck to you, Suzanne! Elinor Lindheimer Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org Mendocino, CA voice: (707) 937-1646 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:50:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How do you estimate your job? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Who says the "average" rate for indexing is between $20 and $30 per hour? Well, around November of '93 the ASI said the average was $32.50. Anyone know if the ASI has any more recent figures? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:51:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sabourin Conrad Subject: References ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Please find below the list of volumes published in the INFOLINGUA series. We believe they will be of interest to the subscribers of this list. Conrad F. Sabourin sabourco@ere.umontreal.ca ************************************************************************** INFOLINGUA (ISSN=1198-1083) A series of extensive and fully indexed bibliographies in computational text processing ************************************************************************** The references in the following bibliographies span the period beginning with the inception of the computer to the present. 50% of the references were published after 1985. Documents were included in the bibliographies regardless of their country of origin or the language in which they were written. The entries describe work done on more than 150 natural languages. Each reference is assigned a set of keywords taken from a thesaurus of 3800. Between 30 and 50 percent of each book consists of a detailed two level index allowing multiple access to the information. ************************************************************************** COMPUTATIONAL LINGUISTICS IN INFORMATION SCIENCE : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 2 volumes, 1047p, ISBN=2-921173-23-9 US$ 150 The references in this extensively indexed bibliography demonstrate how computer technologies can aid in finding information in texts. These technologies can be used to perform tasks such as information retrieval, indexing, abstracting, content analysis, information extraction, etc. Many references concentrate on the tools developed to help perform these tasks. Number of references : Total = 6390, information retrieval = 2100, full-text = 890, conceptual = 60 ; automatic indexing = 930, text abstraction = 270, content analysis = 530, information extraction = 520, concordance = 150, indexing language = 110, query language = 210, index generation = 360, query transformation = 70, text to data base conversion = 150, thesaurus = 390, parsing and analysis = 510, cluster/clustering = 70, hypertext = 230, keyword system = 70, statistical model = 150, weighting of keywords = 80, performance/efficiency = 210, General Inquirer = 50, RESPONSA = 30, SMART = 40, TOPIC = 40, etc. COMPUTER MEDIATED COMMUNICATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and Rolande M. Lamarche 1994, 2 volumes, 862p, ISBN=2-921173-15-8 US$ 130 This entirely indexed bibliography contains references to papers discussing how computers are becoming intermediaries in the communication process. Papers refer to the transmission of complex texts (hypertext, hypermedia), letters (electronic mail), talks (computer conferences), etc. or the contribution of information technologies in collaborative work, meeting support, interviews, etc. Number of references : Total = 5680, hypertext = 1500, hypertext link = 220, Hyperties = 190, hypermedia = 440, document browsing = 180, meeting support = 50, collaborative work = 220, collective text creation = 90, computer conferencing = 550, electronic mail = 400, electronic publishing = 370, multimodal communication = 100, human-machine communication = 960, computer interviewing = 100, ergonomics = 410, linguistic game = 150, multimedia document = 130, socio-political aspects =100, performance/efficiency = 410, etc. ELECTRONIC DOCUMENT PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and Rolande M. Lamarche 1994, 551p, ISBN=2-921173-17-4 US$ 80 The studies listed in this entirely cross-referenced bibliography describe all aspects of electronic document preparation including formatting, typesetting and mark-up (ODA, SGML). The bibliography also covers topics like document management and interchanging as well as document structure and coding standards. Number of references : Total = 4260, document editing = 2400, formatting = 140, typesetting = 540, coding/mark-up = 420, interchanging = 170, management = 260, structure = 170, coding standard = 180 ; ODA = 100, SGML = 190, TEX = 160, document editing learning = 90, page description language = 20, text and graphics document = 110, software evaluation = 90, ease of use = 70, word hyphenation = 20, etc. QUANTITATIVE AND STATISTICAL LINGUISTICS : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 508p, ISBN=2-921173-19-0 US$ 80 The references included in this extensively indexed bibliography deal with the quantification of linguistic entities in text or in spoken language. Among the phenomena under study are the frequency, length, co-occurrence, clustering and entropy of linguistic entities like phonemes, letters, words, grammatical categories, grammatical features, etc. Number of references : Total = 3100, frequency of characters = 60, phonemes = 90, words = 640, grammatical categories = 90, grammatical features = 250 ; lexical richness = 100, word collocation = 230, entropy = 150, word length = 70, sentence length = 90, language interrelationship = 40, word association = 50, word cluster = 20, diachronic evolution = 70, information theory = 40, etc. OPTICAL CHARACTER RECOGNITION AND DOCUMENT SEGMENTATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 512p, ISBN=2-921173-25-5 US$ 80 This fully indexed bibliography holds references on optical segmentation of printed documents and optical recognition of characters of texts, whether they are printed, hand-printed or cursive. Many references describe the methods and tools used to attain these objectives. Also, the bibliography covers the fields of writer or scriptor identification and handwriting modelling. Number of references : Total = 3700, recognition of cursive characters = 910, hand printed characters = 490, printed characters = 390, multi-font characters = 140, alphanumerics = 890, digits = 220, ideograms = 700 ; on-line recognition = 170, writer identification = 330, document segmentation = 320, feature extraction = 260, character isolation = 140, character thinning = 90, Arabic = 70, handwriting generation = 40, writing/scripting model = 70, character classification = 150, system training = 50, word recognition = 90, dynamic programming = 30, neural network = 130, syntactic method = 80, pressure/speed method = 120, character recognition assessment = 330, etc. LITERARY COMPUTING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 581p ISBN=2-921173-12-3 US$ 80 The references included in this fully indexed bibliography demonstrate how computational techniques can be used to study literary texts (fiction, poetry, theatre), religious texts (Bible, Tora, Quran), philosophical texts, and classical texts (Greek, Latin, Hebrew). Some of the studies focus on the content of the texts while others examine their style or deal with authorship attribution. Number of references : Total = 4060, style analysis = 700, author identification = 340, text collation = 220, literary concordance and index = 840, fiction = 670, poetry = 670, theatre = 200, bible/tora/quran = 500, philosophy/history = 250, archaic languages = 70, Greek = 240, Hebrew = 180, Latin = 380, rhythm = 40, theme analysis = 100, creative text generation (prose/verse) = 140, metrical analysis = 80, literary criticism = 190, etc. COMPUTER ASSISTED LANGUAGE TEACHING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and Elca Tarrab 1994, 2 volumes, 1066p, ISBN=2-921173-13-1 US$ 150 The papers referenced in this fully indexed bibliography illustrate how information technologies are being used to help people (children, adults) learn languages or help them produce texts that conform to grammatical and rhetorical norms in their mother tongue or in a foreign language. Many papers refer to systems designed to detect and correct lexical or grammatical errors in texts. Number of references : Total = 8010, teaching orthography = 130, writing = 1500, composition = 770, grammar = 430, listening/comprehension = 150, reading = 830, speaking = 200, vocabulary = 250, keyboarding = 60, foreign languages = 1900, classical languages = 100 ; readability analysis = 200, lexical/grammatical error detection/correction = 500, text revision = 220, text style checking = 210, text composition support = 440, electronic communications = 210, authoring language = 120, videodisc/cd-rom = 200, hypertext = 270 ; teaching adults = 750, children = 1230 ; attitudes = 220, performance/efficiency = 290, evaluation of results = 380, etc. COMPUTATIONAL MORPHOLOGY : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 492p, ISBN=2-921173-01-8 US$ 80 The references in this extensively indexed bibliography focus on the use of formal, algorithmical, and computational methods for performing morphological analysis and generation. The methods are applied to dozens of natural languages. Number of references : Total = 2350, morphological analysis = 1300, morphological generation = 290, lemmatization = 260, morphophonology = 80, inflectional morphology = 150, derivational morphology = 50, two-level model = 100, LISP = 20, PROLOG = 30, etc. COMPUTATIONAL PARSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 2 volumes, 1029p, ISBN=2-921173-02-6 US$ 150 The entries in this extensively indexed bibliography refer to computational methods, algorithms, and strategies used to analyze sentences and uncover their underlying logical or semantic structures. References to nearly all problematic linguistic phenomena including ellipsis, anaphora, ambiguity, coordination, and idioms are provided. Number of references : Total = 5180, syntactic analysis = 1110, semantic analysis = 710, semantic interpretation = 260, parsing algorithm = 200, parsing strategy = 70, chart parsing = 170, ambiguity = 400, anaphora = 110, coordination/conjunction = 110, ellipsis = 40, methaphor = 30, ellipsis = 40, idiom = 40, noun compound = 40, tense = 60, constraint = 100, garden path = 30, sub-language = 50, ill-formed input = 100, logic programming = 70, semantic representation = 100, 80 parsing methods, 24 knowledge representation formalisms, PROLOG = 210, etc. COMPUTATIONAL LEXICOLOGY AND LEXICOGRAPHY : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 2 volumes, 1031p, ISBN=2-921173-04-2 US$ 150 The papers refered to in this fully indexed bibliography deal with the formalization, design or development of computational dictionaries, lexical databases and term banks. Many papers refer to the extraction of linguistic data from machine readable dictionaries. Number of references : Total = 5910, dictionary (production) = 1380, thesaurus = 680, term bank = 680, analysis dictionary = 1230, transfer dictionary = 140, generation dictionary = 60, lexical database/machine readable dictionary = 550, lexical semantics = 780, lexicon grammar = 110, dictionary design/organization = 310, lexical knowledge base = 100, word compound = 40, synonymy = 50, idiom = 60, linguistic object extraction = 100; dictionary : bilingual = 20, conceptual = 30, reverse/inverted = 17, frequency = 60 ; meaning-text theory = 30 ; DELAF/DELAS = 30, OED = 60, EURODICAUTOM = 50, LDOCE = 80, MESH = 20, SNOMED = 17, TEAM = 30, TLF = 20, TERMIUM = 30, DEC = 30, etc. COMPUTATIONAL TEXT UNDERSTANDING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 657p, ISBN=2-921173-06-9 US$ 80 All the titles of this fully cross-referenced bibliography pertain to the understanding of texts by computers. While some references focus on the intellectual parameters (beliefs, goals, intentions) used in the understanding process, others describe the tools (knowledge representation, types of reasoning etc.) used by the systems to achieve understanding. Number of references : Total = 3830, natural language programming = 110, argument analysis = 80, anaphora = 120, ellipsis = 50, methaphor = 70, sub-language = 50, pragmatics = 120, reference = 70, semantics = 190, speech act = 60, knowledge acquisition = 80, reasoning = 120, belief = 100, discourse = 170, focus = 30, goal = 90, inference = 350, intention = 30, knowledge representation = 750, planning = 100, narrative/story = 190; 15 types of reasoning, 21 knowledge representation formalisms, etc. COMPUTATIONAL TEXT GENERATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin with a survey article by Mark T. Maybury 1994, 649p, ISBN=2-921173-07-7 US$ 80 This fully indexed bibliography includes references to studies on the computational generation of text from data or from a semantic structure. The generation process can take place in the context of applications like machine translation or natural language interfaces. The generation process can also be entirely creative, producing fictional or poetical texts. The bibliography holds references to all these types of generation processes. Number of references : Total = 2870, text generation from data = 1060, text generation from structure = 730, text planning = 180, sentence generation = 310, explanation generation = 330, RST = 40, pragmatics = 50, text generation : fiction/poetry = 140, text paraphrasing = 50, dialogue = 70, discourse = 90, conceptual representation = 40, user modelling = 100, systemic grammar = 90, rhetorics = 40, reference = 50, pronoun = 40, tense = 30, bilingual system = 50, goal = 70, inference = 50, MUMBLE = 20, NIGEL = 30, PENMAN = 40, etc. NATURAL LANGUAGE INTERFACES : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 2 volumes, 847p, ISBN=2-921173-08-5 US$ 130 The papers referenced in this fully indexed bibliography describe systems that attempt communication in natural languages between humans and computers. Because of the nature of the communication problems involved, hundreds of references deal with different aspects of dialogue and user modelling. Number of references : Total = 4100, interface to database = 1100, to expert system = 70, to question-answering system = 640, to robot = 70, to operating system = 70 ; conversation system = 300, interface : vocal = 210, pragmatics = 80, dialogue = 450, dialogue structure = 40, dialogue break-up/repair = 20, dialogue : collaborative = 60, language : quasi-natural = 100, inference = 200, speech act = 30, discourse = 70, discourse representation = 20, goal = 70, planning = 50, user modelling = 160, system portability = 130, etc. MACHINE TRANSLATION : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin and L. R. Bourbeau 1994, 2 volumes, 1168p, ISBN=2-921173-10-7 US$ 150 The references included in this extensively indexed bibliography present studies on the use of computers in the translation of one natural language into another. Over 120 systems operating on more than 60 different languages are described. Some of the systems attempt to translate verbal communications. Number of references : Total = 8070, aids to translation = 550, speech translation =100 ; ambiguity = 240, interlingua = 300, polysemy = 40, intermediate structure = 140, translation workstation = 110, post-edition = 120, transfer = 280, use of statistics = 50, commercial aspects = 120, performance/efficiency = 170 ; 60 different natural languages ; 120 systems, TAUM = 230, EUROTRA = 430, SUSY = 100, SYSTRAN = 230, GETA = 190, PAHO = 30, LOGOS = 60, METAL = 80, DLT = 60, etc. COMPUTATIONAL CHARACTER PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 580p, ISBN=2-921173-18-2 US$ 80 This fully cross-referenced bibliography is devoted to the problems linked to the processing of character sets larger than the English one. The topics covered include the coding (internal and external), input, output, conversion, generation and printing of these characters. Number of references : Total = 4120, character coding = 550, input = 900, output = 260, conversion = 360, generation = 400 ; text compression = 240, hashing = 110, string matching = 300, font design = 160, coding standard = 110, keyboard design = 230, literate programming = 330, document display/ printing = 160, bilingual/multilingual system = 80, Braille = 140, Arabic = 160, Chinese = 620, Japanese = 450, Indian Languages = 150, etc. MATHEMATICAL AND FORMAL LINGUISTICS : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 612p, ISBN=2-921173-20-4 US$ 80 This fully cross-referenced bibliography deals with the problems of formalization and mathematical representation of linguistic phenomena. This formalization is made possible by the use of mathematical languages like the numerous kinds of logics and grammar formalisms referred to in this bibliography. Number of references : Total = 3840, formal linguistics = 1470, mathematical linguistics = 1910, grammar formalism = 480, grammar testing = 90, logic = 820, quantifier = 300, situation semantics = 50, fuzziness = 110, negation = 50, reference = 50, semantics = 550, discourse representation = 40, tense logic = 60, unification = 50 ; 51 kinds of logic, 240 kinds of grammar, etc. COMPUTATIONAL SPEECH PROCESSING : BIBLIOGRAPHY, by Conrad F. Sabourin 1994, 2 volumes, 1187p, ISBN=2-921173-21-2 US$ 150 All the references included in this fully indexed bibliography pertain to speech processing by computers. The main processes studied are the analysis, segmentation, recognition, understanding, coding, enhancement, and synthesis of speech. Numerous references describe the methods and tools for speech processing as well as the applications of speech technologies. Number of references : Total = 8290, speech analysis = 1110, speech recognition = 2600, speech understanding = 600, speech coding = 560, speech synthesis = 1500, speech segmentation = 290, noise interference = 160, pitch extraction = 110, formant perception/estimation = 230, analysis by synthesis = 40, speech intelligibility = 230, vocal tract simulation = 110, human-machine vocal communication = 340, text-to-speech = 560, speaker identification = 290, speech data base = 90, neurocomputing = 200, prosody processing = 600, phoneme identification = 500, speech enhancement = 60, vector quantization = 180, time warping = 90, hidden Markov model = 220, ADPCM = 40, CEPSTRUM = 40, DPM = 130, LPC = 340, etc. ******************************************************************************** ORDERING INFORMATION All orders must be PREPAID in U.S. dollars. Payment : Bank draft drawn on a U.S. bank (via your local bank) or INTERNATIONAL money order Payable to : INFOLINGUA inc. P.O. Box 187 Snowdon Montreal, Qc, H3X 3T4 CANADA Shipping fees : -Surface mail : free -Air mail : add US$ 5 per volume inside North America : add US$ 12 per volume outside North America Sales taxes : -Canadian residents add GST 7% (GST no 125727982) Information : email : 73651.2144@compuserve.com ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 09:51:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Trottier Subject: How do you estimate... (Part II) In-Reply-To: <199507112347.TAA14406@eole.ERE.UMontreal.CA> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi! Thank you for all the answers. But I still have more questions about that subject. I talked with the author today and she told me that the publisher is used to pay .75 to 1.00\index entry. Is this usual? (I don't think so, since none of your answers mentionned it :) ) I have also some difficulty to understand how a rate per indexable page has more advantages than a rate by the hour. Some people said that for a technical book of 500 pages I should estimate to spend 100 hours. So at $25/hour x 100 = $2500. Per indexable page, if the average rate is $2.50 the price will be only $1250. (assuming that all the 500 pages are indexable). Am I right? Thank you again for your collaboration. Suzanne Trottier ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate your ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne, are you in Canada? Some of the differences in the dollar figures being quoted may be due to the different currencies. I've heard of being paid by the entry (specifically a figure of US$0.65) but have never been paid that way. Just make sure you, the publisher and the author all agree on what an 'entry' is. On the question of the average rate - I believe the quoted amount is the average in Australia. In KeyWords, July/Aug 1994, page 17, Garry Cousins of AusSI says "the Society's recommended rate" is $32.50/hour. I take that to be AusSI, not ASI. The Australian and Canadian dollars are roughly equivalent, but not the USD. At the current exchange rate, AU$32.50 = US$23.38. And of course, the economies and publishing industries are different in each country. I can't recall ASI ever announcing an average or recommended rate for U.S. indexers, but I've been a member for less than 2 years. Does IASC/SCAD have one? The range seems to be quite wide, depending on whether you're indexing a trade book and getting US$15-20/hour (which seems to be all the NY publishers will pay, and which I think is too low) or a technical manual and getting US$4.00/page and up. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * Madison, New Jersey * marymort@aol.com * * "Wealth, I was discovering, is more accurately measured in what * you enjoy than in what you possess." Jean Aspen, _Arctic Son_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (P... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne, I don't think you'd spend 100 hours for a 500 page book. Most indexers who do this for a living work much faster than that, unless the book is very unusual, in which case you'd command much more than $2.50 per page. So .... if you cut your time in half (I figure 10 pages per hour is my norm - sometimes more), the index will be billed at $25/hr for 50 hr., which would give you the same $1250 total. If you are more of a beginning indexer, you will probably have a hard time convincing a publishing house to pay you by the hour, because they will suspect it may take you longer. They may be certain of your ability to provide a good index, but the time spent may be suspect. They will probably want to pay by the page or entry. The per-entry rate is used in some disciplines more than in others, but it's not unusual. Medical indexers are very frequently paid by the entry. The price they quoted you is a fine price. I would say $0.50 per is lowballing it, $0.65 to $0.75 is more like it, and $1.00 per entry is very nice. I'm just getting done with a large index in an engineering field. Using the number of entries I'll have, my $3/page is equivalent to $.65 per entry. I usually cross check my rates that way, to keep a finger on the pulse of rates no matter which way they're figured. Good luck with your project! Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com) Southwest Indexing PS - All due respects to ASI's figure, I don't know *anybody* who gets $32.50 per hour for indexing! Wish I did!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:26:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II) In-Reply-To: Suzanne Trottier "How do you estimate... (Part II)" (Jul 12, 9:51am) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne Trottier (trotties@ERE.UMontreal.CA) said: > Some people said that for a technical book of 500 pages I should estimate > to spend 100 hours. So at $25/hour x 100 = $2500. Per indexable page, if > the average rate is $2.50 the price will be only $1250. ... Is this right? It's important to interpret these contradictions when they happen. Although I prefer to stay away from "dollar-amount-per-index-entry" figures (they inspire the indexer to over-index), this method -- and the above two methods -- of estimating the monetary value of an index all should come out about the same. I end up doing some sort of balancing act between rates. Take the example I quoted above. Since $25/hr sounds reasonable, think about raising the per-page figure to get the totals to match. In fact, for a technical book I think $2.50 could be low, so I might go as high as $4/page. For 500 pages the new per-page total is $2000, which is still $500 lower than the hourly rate. If you don't reconsider either the houly rate or the speed at which you index (5 pp/hr was recommended, but I'd verify this with a sample of the text), then maybe you should ask for $5/page, or a $2500 total. There are those people who think that $5 will be too high (I sometimes do) -- but will then say (as I would) that $25/hr is not only appropriate but even low! Let's settle this by adding the third method -- a per-entry rate of $1/entry. Assuming that the book is has (on average) five entries per page, for 500 pages you get a total of $2500. This tells me that our numbers are right, and that $25/hr (at 5 pp/hr) and $5/page are valid rates. If the book had only 4 entries per page (a $2000 total), lower the hourly figure to $20/hr, raise the indexing speed to 8 pp/hr, lower the per-pate rate to $4/page, or some combination of all of them. This may sound horribly compilcated (and it is!), but after a while you start to get the hang of thinking in all three modes at once. The advantage to thinking in at least two of these rate modes is that you will catch yourself from making big mistakes. For example, you might estimate a 100-page technical manual at $4.50/page for $450 -- but find that there are at least 12 entries per page when you see a sample (at $1 per entry = $1200). These ballpark numbers should clue you in that you are either overcharging or undercharging. - Seth Maislin seth@ora.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:27:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr@aol.com Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Suzanne, As has been mentioned, some publishers do price indexing on a per entry basis. This is one of the standard methods, although I have not run into it myself. According to the published ranges I have seen, the price quoted is above average, *BUT* beware that the material or the definition of an entry will make all the difference. Make sure you have reviewed the material and know if they have any guidelines as to how heavly you must index, and agree explicitly with the client in writing as to what an entry is and how they will be counted when you deliver. As to getting paid per page vs. per hour, your speed makes all the difference. I would not put too much stock in a horseback estimate like 100 hours for a 500 page book, since an estimate needs to be based on a specific review of the actual material to be indexed. FYI, my first book was about 120 pages and it took over a hundred hours. Just learning how, you know. As to your example, for the page rate of $2.50 per page to yield the same income as $25.00 per hour you need to be indexing at 10 pages per hour, by simple arithmetic. Don't forget that the hours used to figure pages per hour include ALL steps of preparing and delivering the index, including marking entries, entering them, editing, proofing and printing the final copy in the form the client wants. By the same arithmetic, once you are very experienced and very fast, doing familiar material, you can raise your hourly income beyond $25 per hour on such a book by working at a rate of more than 10 pages per hour, and the client doesn't know the difference. Another way of saying this is that a beginning indexer may find it very difficult to produce income of $25.00 per hour due to the extra time involved in learning and false starts, whereas a more experienced one can meet or exceed this. If you can find a client willing to pay you this hourly rate for your on-the-job training, more power to you. I would not hold your breath, though. Once again, good luck. Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:27:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Edward Bedinger Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not? In-Reply-To: <199507112344.QAA19523@gateway.uswnvg.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Tue, 11 Jul 1995, Dwight Walker wrote: > words in the header to identify the page. > > I just created the Sydney Linux Users Group pages: > > http://www.anatomy.su.oz.au/danny/SLUG/index.html > > Have a look at the source on Netscape | View. It is an interesting start to > embedding subject entries right in the code. Interesting. Are any of the browsers oriented to this? I mean, if keywords were displayed when I browse a page it might be useful. Is HTML Writer pushing the HTML envelope by using non-standard (2.0, 3.0) HTML? I think that the meta keyword fields would be easy to use for the full-text indexer/crawler units that currently are providing much of the search-databases for the 'net. Is this what is envisioned as the uses of meta fields? Regards. Ned Bedinger ebeding@uswnvg.com 'my views only, not my employers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 14:29:31 ECT Reply-To: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You wrote: > I am now at that point in my indexing career where I am considering > purchasing a dedicated indexing program, i.e., CINDEX/MACREX. I would > appreciate hearing from those of you using such programs. I will compile > the results and would be happy to share them with those interested . . . I would be very interested to see a copy of the results you receive from this enquiry, either as a posting to INDEX-L or by e-mail to me. Thanks very much. Regards Leonard Will -- Dr Leonard D Will Tel: +44 181 372 0092 Information Management Consultant Fax: +44 181 372 0094 27 Calshot Way, ENFIELD, Middlesex Email: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk EN2 7BQ, United Kingdom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re Suzanne's additional questions: We neglected to mention per-entry rates. The rates quoted, .75 to 1.00\index entry, are very acceptable. I would say go for it! Most per-entry rates are really per-line rates in the word-processed index, but even so, it comes to the same as a per-page rate would be, just about. This way of pricing an index accounts for density better than any other, as long as you are not severely limited as to space. And the client doesn't have to face the per-page rate actually being paid! A per-page rate gives both client and indexer a firm knowledge of what the index will cost, and requires the indexer to apportion number of entries per page accordingly (which is why you have to see a sample). If on your sample you are doing 10 pages per hour in entering terms, then allowing for editing time, printing, shipping, billing, expenses, etc., you figure you can net 5 to 7 pages per hour, you can base your quote on that. (If you want to make $30 per hour on a 500-page book, and you net 5 pages per hour, that would be $6 per page. Some clients can pay that much; many can't, so you would have to limit your entries or enter faster, while maintaining quality. Or you could avoid the issue by agreeing on a per-entry rate.) I agree with those who think that $20 per hour is low. Remember you are a professional, and you can expect to earn a professional wage. Technical material should command higher rates--technical material in any field. Technical-book publishers who pay $2.50 per page will have trouble finding good indexers. Sometimes you get lucky, and a job goes faster, so you make more per hour than you expected. Sometimes you get unlucky, and the job goes slower. It evens out in the end, we hope. You can review the information on rates for indexing in INDEXING BOOKS by Nancy Mulvany--it's a good general reference. One more point: Suzanne is writing from Montreal. For information about indexing in Canada, French-language indexing, etc., a wonderful source is the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada/Societe canadienne pour l'analyse de documents. This year's president is Christine Jacobs: incj@musicb.mcgill.ca (What do we do when we don't want to put a sentence-ending period at the end of an email address????) Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org Mendocino, CA voice: (707) 937-1646 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@aol.com Subject: Re: Dedicated indexing programs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The American Society of Indexers publishers an inexpensive Guide to Indexing Software. You may want to contact them at 512-749-4052 fax -6334 (Texas), or e-mail: asi@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet? Why not? -Reply ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -----------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 12 Jul 1995, Ned Bedinger wrote in reply to Dwight Walker: I think that the meta keyword fields would be easy to use for the full-text indexer/crawler units that currently are providing much of the search-databases for the 'net. Is this what is envisioned as the uses of meta fields? Embedding keywords at WWW sites, home pages, and any other Internet "document" offers one means of getting a type of index entry attached to them. But keyword searching without authority control at one end or the other, i.e., by the parties assigning the keywords or by the overall search engine through which search queries would be made, notoriously causes false drops and poor recall. Keyword indexing of the net would require something in addition, as for instance the creation of a "megathesaurus" linking synonyms (rabbits and bunnies) and variant spellings (mannequins and manikins), and distinguishing among homographs (derbies (hats), derbies (shoes), and derbies (horse races).then There are different dialects of English (British searchers would search for "lorries" where American searchers would search for "trucks"), and, to go international, multilingual equivalencies to link. The technological work of creating such links is probably less complex than the intellectual work of researching and creating them. So what should happen first? Let those distributing or "publishing" on the Internet assign their keywords, hopefully by professional indexers using at least a controlled vocabulary of their own, or allow a free-for-all, for a time at least, and try to create a thesaurus out of the body of keywords assigned? In practical terms, probably a mix of both. You couldn't expect everyone to wait until the megathesaurus was constructed, and compiling such a work would require a body of pre-existing terms to start with. The idea is that the linking of synonyms, variant spellings, etc. would mean no one would have to change their keywords once assigned; the links would allow searchers to retrieve for the correct concept or entity, however spelt. I can't off the top of my head begin to get into things like Boolean searching and precoordination of indexing terms. I think all I have to say boils down to this: indexing the Internet will call for concerted thinking about the whole search system, in addition to the assignment of index terms. My $0.02 overspent, Alison Chipman / achipman@aat.getty.edu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:41:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "C.JACOBS" Subject: Re[2]: How do you estimate your job? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:32:31 EDT ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Canadian fees Yes, Canadian fees would be in the vicinity of $25-$35 per hour (CDN); probably higher for software companies. I usually try (and suggest to others to do the same) to keep the fees in line with the freelance editing/writing fees that are being paid in that discipline (hence higher fees for technical indexing). Indexing is demanding intellectual work (usually and ideally), and publishers should not expect to pay the indexer less than they would the copy editor or the structure editor . IASC does not have recommended rates at the moment, but it is an area where we have to do cross-country research. Fees do vary by location, as do editing fees. They seem to be somewhat contingent on the number of publishers and the number of government agencies in a given area (so, for example, fees are generally higher in Toronto and Ottawa than in Montreal) As a matter of interest, in thirteen years I have never had a publisher or author query paying by the hour. I give an estimate that allows some leeway, but I emphasize that I will charge for the time it takes me. I have difficulty with the concept of charging by the page or the entry. Material that is poorly written can take much longer to index, as can some social science types of material (because the concepts are difficult to reduce to terms). Although I suppose you could give the publisher a different per/entry quote or per/page quote for every book, it seems rather tedious when a simple per/hour rate will allow for all contingencies. Another point to bear in mind, and that I think the publisher should be aware of, is that the length of the index is not the major determining factor in the cost of the index; it is the length of the book and the complexity of the material. A short index is not necessarily easy to create. The discussion about making less because you work faster has also come up at our local editors' meetings periodically. The general consensus is that, in fact, you make more because you take on more work, which makes sense. There is also no reason why you cannot choose to charge a minimum amount, so that, for example, you do not create an index for less than $250, even if the work takes only 8 hours. There is a tendency for clients to think you index in your spare time because they cannot picture this as a way of making a living. It is up to us to insist that we be paid for the intellectual work, not just the mechanics, and that we be treated as professionals who have businesses to maintain. As freelancers we are responsible for all own benefits such as health insurance, paid holidays, sick days..., and the fact that billed time must take into account working time that is not billable (eg: tax forms, accounting procedures, client phone calls...). Whatever the fees, and however we choose to estimate them, they should result in a reasonable living, comparable to a decently paid editor, averaged out over reasonable working hours (ie: not 70 hours per week!). Christine Jacobs incj@musicb.mcgill.ca Montreal ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:42:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Hardware backups ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Hmm. Interesting idea. I have a 286 PC at home that would function well as a >DOS-based backup. My question is, how do you connect the two? What hardware and >software are you using? >John Overbaugh johno@spry.com DOS 6 comes with a simple two-machine networking system called INTERLNK. Both machines should be running DOS 6 and their comms ports are connected with a standard cable (plus gender changer (?)). On startup using INTERLNK, one machine then functions as a 'slave' and the drives on that machine appear as additional drives to the user on the 'master' machine. The slave machine can't be used for anything else while the program is running. A little messy, but it works. Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:39:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mgenuardi@mail.casi.sti.nasa.gov Subject: Abstractor/Indexer Wanted - Scientific/Technical Literature ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RMS Associates, a key NASA contractor located near BWI Airport (south of Baltimore), seeks an individual to abstract/index the information content of scientific and technical reports. Must possess a college degree with courses in the physical sciences or engineering, a desire to work in the information field; or equivalent experience in abstracting/indexing scientific materials. Resume should indicate writing and critical thinking skills. Send resume to Ms. Geri Hensel, 800 Elkridge Landing Road, Linthicum Heights, MD 21090-2934. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:40:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Re[2]: How do you estimat... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Christine Jacob's and Elinor Lindheimer's posts were right to the point, folks. It's up to us to educate the business community as to why they should pay us better, more professional rates for being in the business of doing the difficult intellectual work of creating their indexes. I find myself constantly explaining myself to publishers about being in business, about how we indexers have administrative affairs, which take time, do our own errands, purchasing, banking, etc. (business- related, I mean), which take time, etc. We have to evaluate reference sources and software, order them, make a trip to the library once in a while, or call an associate who has a particular expertise to answer a technical question. We have to evaluate advertising sources, make or review marketing plans, design logos and letterhead and go to the printer, etc. All of this has to be factored into what we're paid for our jobs, since they're non-billable hours but definitely germane to the business. Our rates have to cover this time too, so that *overall* we come out with a living wage, no -- a satisfying professional salary. It's called factoring in your overhead! Using a temporary (freelance) employee (and thus saving on benefits) is not a good reason to underpay us, although that seems to be the prevalent thinking in a lot of circles. I'm afraid that many, many publishers do not consider us to be business people. We're seen as people who have this odd avocation (notice the "a"), with kind of a strange love for this esoteric art, which happens to provide them with a product they need -- an index. I doubt that many in the publishing world see us as "running a business", like any other business owner. So, the more business- like our approach to indexing, and to rates, the more we will be respected as professionals AND business-people, and the better our pay rates will be, or at least the easier it will be to get publishers to raise them. Our job in asking for higher rates is to explain the rationale for them, educating the publishing world about the realities discussed above. It's something every indexer should be doing when talking to publishers. Janet Perlman (jperlman@aol.com) Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:53:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard S. Day" Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On 13 July at 09:41, you wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- [big snip of interesting material] > This year's president is Christine Jacobs: > incj@musicb.mcgill.ca (What do we do when we don't want to put a > sentence-ending period at the end of an email address????) > I would put it on a new line and indent it slightly: This year's president is Christine Jacobs: incj@musicb.mcgill.ca (What do we do.... etc Just a quick 0.02 cents worth. Ric -- ------------------------------------------------* MBF Systems Corporation Lynnwood, WA and Vancouver, BC email: support@mbfw451.mlnet.com or: 70521,2167 (CompuServe) 451: Professional Electronic Documents ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:53:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Indexers as professionals (Was: How do you estimat... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Janet brought up some excellent points about getting publishers to see us as professionals and independent business owners. Additional ways of getting our clients to view us as professionals include letting them know when we attend conferences on indexing. When a client calls to schedule something near the time of an ASI conference, I always manage to let them know about it so that we can schedule around it. It also informs them that, "Gee, indexing is really a profession!" (and that you are staying on top of developments in your profession). Do you have a line on your letterhead stating that you are a member of a professional indexing society (e.g., ASI, AusSI, etc.)? This is another subtle statement that indexing is more than just an avocation to earn "pin money". When discussing indexing issues with clients, referring to "standard indexing practices" or what is accepted by "the indexing profession or community" subtly reinforces the concept. In terms of business issues, IMHO, frankness with clients when something they want increases your overhead reminds them that you are indeed an independent business owner. For example, when a client was sending me a chapter a day and had me Fedexing out a chapter a day, I let them know that this was horrendously increasing my overhead, time being money. (They told me to charge them for an extra 75 pages.) This was in addition to letting them know that this was having an awful effect on the index itself. Over the years we worked together to develop an indexing strategy that not only met their unusual needs but permitted me to write better indexes for them. Opportunities to reinforce the concepts of indexing as a profession and indexers as business owners abound when you build a good relationship with your clients, IMHO. These concepts do not have to be "forced" into conversations but arise naturally. They also help to reassure clients that their indexing projects are in capable hands and that as a business owner you will do everything possible to meet their needs. Just my $.02--or did that ring up to $.04? :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >Christine Jacob's and Elinor Lindheimer's posts were right to the point, >folks. It's up to us to educate the business community as to why they should >pay us better, more professional rates for being in the business of doing the >difficult intellectual work of creating their indexes. > >I find myself constantly explaining myself to publishers about being in >business, about how we indexers have administrative affairs, which take time, >do our own errands, purchasing, banking, etc. (business- related, I mean), >which take time, etc. We have to evaluate reference sources and software, >order them, make a trip to the library once in a while, or call an associate >who has a particular expertise to answer a technical question. We have to >evaluate advertising sources, make or review marketing plans, design logos >and letterhead and go to the printer, etc. All of this has to be factored >into what we're paid for our jobs, since they're non-billable hours but >definitely germane to the business. Our rates have to cover this time too, >so that *overall* we come out with a living wage, no -- a satisfying >professional salary. It's called factoring in your overhead! > >Using a temporary (freelance) employee (and thus saving on benefits) is not a >good reason to underpay us, although that seems to be the prevalent thinking >in a lot of circles. > >I'm afraid that many, many publishers do not consider us to be business >people. We're seen as people who have this odd avocation (notice the "a"), >with kind of a strange love for this esoteric art, which happens to provide >them with a product they need -- an index. I doubt that many in the >publishing world see us as "running a business", like any other business >owner. So, the more business- like our approach to indexing, and to rates, >the more we will be respected as professionals AND business-people, and the >better our pay rates will be, or at least the easier it will be to get >publishers to raise them. > >Our job in asking for higher rates is to explain the rationale for them, >educating the publishing world about the realities discussed above. It's >something every indexer should be doing when talking to publishers. > >Janet Perlman >(jperlman@aol.com) >Southwest Indexing >