========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:18:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like to add a hearty "second" to Marilyn Rowland's remarks regarding rates and the possibility of a $50,000 gross for an indexer. I don't like the image of an indexer as a starving intellectual who works in a field that does not reward well, or who cannot command a good living. The intellectual skills required to be a good indexer should and can be rewarded with that type of earnings .... *if* the indexer is also a good businessman/woman, and if he or she is willing to work hard and long to build a business. It's no different than in any other business endeavor. All indexers should be educating and informing their clients, as Marilyn suggested, as to the true worth and importance of our work product in today's world. An aggressive stance regarding low pay rates must be maintained or else we will be put on -- and remain on -- the defensive in the dog-eat-dog business world. It's a rough world out there! Indexers can and should make $50,000 a year! Why not? Maybe not if you are not full-time as an indexer, and maybe not if you're not willing to take up some of the challenges that come at you and take a stand about low rates. And maybe not if you don't work 40-50 hours per week, consistently, as most salaried folk do! We must treat indexing as a business in order to be financially successful and earn that kind of dollars. I try to deliver the highest quality product for the best price possible. I feel I can bargain aggressively on rates without having indexing quality enter into the discussion. My professional standards are never in question, nor is the quality of the job I will submit. The only thing under discussion is the rate. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:18:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing In-Reply-To: <9509072219.AA07042@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Thu, 7 Sep 1995 johno@spry.com wrote: > Has anyone thought of a letter to the editor of Money Magazine? I just e-mailed a letter to Money yesterday. Interestingly enough, it bounced back. "Host correct but no A or MX" was the comment, I think. I'll try again. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:18:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Saints' Days, help for In-Reply-To: <9509072224.AA07083@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Thu, 7 Sep 1995 johno@spry.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > In the spirit of and, for, in, etc., how about indexing by the Saint's name, a nd > > ignoring the St. title: > > J > jalopy > jerky > St. John > June I think this solution would confuse index users. "How'd that 'St.' get in there?" they'd no doubt think. I don't think that "Saint" or "St." is in the same category as "a," "an," "the," "and," "by," and the like. I'd go with "Saint John's Day," and I'd have a cross-reference from "John, Saint." > However, Chicago (appeal to authority?) says to index "under their given, or > Christian, names: Catherine of Siena, Saint; Thomas, Saint (17.88). This is fine for the saints themselves. But I don't think it works for saints' days. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:18:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Money magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here's the letter I attempted to send to Money. Perhaps someday it'll get through. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 18:44:59 -0500 (GMT-0500) From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Book indexing as a career To: letters@moneymag.com To the editor: I read with interest Lesley Alderman's August 1995 article on home-based businesses, and particularly the part about book indexers. Ms. Alderman had also interviewed me for the article, but I was not quoted. I was truly amazed to read that Matthew Spence, an indexer, "averages $50,000 a year." I have been a full-time freelance indexer (and editor, proofreader, researcher, and writer) since 1985. Never, in all my years of freelancing, have I made anywhere near $50,000 per year. When Ms. Alderman asked me what was the most that an indexer could earn, I estimated about $30,000 per year--gross. I am a member of the American Society of Indexers, and I teach the U.S. Department of Agriculture Graduate School correspondence course in Basic Indexing. Both ASI and the USDA have received an astounding number of telephone calls since your article appeared. The calls are from people who want to get rich quick as indexers. I hate to disillusion them--and you--but this is simply not going to happen. Indexing is difficult, painstaking, exhausting, and sometimes tedious work. Simply because one loves to read does not mean that one will automatically become a good indexer. And if anyone thinks that he or she will grow rich if he or she is involved in any aspect of publishing, well, guess again. Unless someone writes a bestseller, one is doomed to work hard and earn little. It's time for a reality check, folks. Thank you for letting people know that careers in indexing exist. There is indeed a great need for good indexers. But please don't overwhelm ASI and the USDA with people who aren't committed to hard work and an excellent product. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:18:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Saints' Days, help for In-Reply-To: <9509072224.AA07083@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It occurs to me that "Saint John's Day" may (?) fall into the same category as "Saint [or St.] Paul, Minnesota," "Saint [or St.] Louis, Missouri," and the like. Whaddya think? Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:21:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm a newbie to the net but I've been working full-time as a freelance indexer for about 5 years. I've yet to get the archives of the Index-l group, so my point may have already been made, and I apologize in advance if it has. Simply put, $ 50,000/yr is decent money in California if you live on a commune or have a one-in-a-million rent situation, but with starter homes going for 1/4 million and up, given the usual income/mortgage ratios it wouldn't begin to support a real nuclear family. It is roughly equivalent, in my estimation, to the $ 20-35/yr salary one could more rationally expect on the East Coast. This has been borne out by many discussions I've had with West Coast indexers, who it appears get about 1 1/2 to 2 times the average page rate on the East Coast. A similar phenomenon is true in New York city, where a $ 50,000/yr day job is considered ground floor. Considering that the freelancer must also pay his own insurance, cover his own so-called social security (to rip off Merle Haggard), and provide for his own retirement, this is not and never will be a road to easy riches. While articles like these may cause consternation among current indexers that a horde of "newbie" indexers will soon be descending like locusts, they have appeared in the past to no great affect. People who are looking for get-rich-quick schemes and easy work-at-home jobs will soon drift off to other more lucrative areas as they discover the amount of intellectual effort required to index. But should they stick it out and discover the dual joys of self-reliance and the happiness that comes from doing what you were meant to do, as I have, then they deserve to be indexers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:22:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lynn Moncrief brought up a point I have pondered, so I thought I'd ask for some other input here. Like her, I prefer to put "and" at the end rather than the beginning of a subentry. What do others think? Elinor Lindheimer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:23:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- John Overbaugh wrote: >Has anyone thought of a letter to the editor of Money Magazine? I think if the >President or board of ASI were to draft a letter, it has a high chance of being >published. It'd be a good way to set the record straight. > We are working on it. I've located the Internet version of Money, but have to download the hopefully no-longer-buggy Netscape version in order not to get bumped offline every five minutes. I think it would be a good idea to get a reply up in that version also. I have really appreciated all the feedback and suggestions from folks on this list. Elinor Lindheimer President, American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:13:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Carol's query on geometry subheadings ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >On September 5, Carol Roberts wrote: > >......Is this OK as is? > >geometry > and architect/artisan training, 132P133, 139P140, 152P154 > and arithematic, 133, 139, 140 > branches of, 139, 140 > circles, 133 > classical influence on, 131P133, 138, 139P140, 152 > conic sections, 141, 145 > and cosmology, 133 > drafting instruments, 138, 141, 145P146 > manuals, 123, 133 > mensuration, 141, 152 > as metaphor for divine unity, 81, 103 > methods of constructing figures, 138, 147P150 > as purifying, 103P104 > uses of, 132P133 > To which Barbara Wurf replied: > >What about breaking the main heading "geometry" into two main >headings, "geometry" and "geometrical figures"? (Some of the subheadings >pertain to geometry as a field of study, and some apply to geometrical >figures. Your index would look like this: > >geometry > and architect/artisan training, .... > and arithmetic, .... > branches of, .... > classical influence on, .... > and cosmology, ... > drafting instruments, ... > manuals, ... > as metaphor for divine unity... > as purifying, ... > uses of, ... > >geometrical figures > circles... > conic sections, .... > construction methods,... > mensuration, . My 2 cents: I'm uneasy with the use of such a broad term as "geometry" to put very specific items like "circles" at. It is a truism in indexing and a good rule to follow that the topic of a general book should have minimal listings at the location of the book's title, i.e., here at "geometry". Hans Wellisch likes to relate the story of a book where he saw an index entry like "Art 1-758". And what listings there are should be "aspects of" rather than specifics. In other words, a book on art should not have a term like this: Art Picasso, ... Rubens,... I realize that more than a few indexers out there are probably saying to themselves: that doesn't look so bad...... Why not collect all the names of artists under the term "Art". This is a very easy and seductive trap for an indexer to fall into: specifically the urge to overclassify, leading to the phenomenon of the "index within an index". Like most indexers, I went through a long period of worshipping the gods of overclassification and so have given this issue a lot of thought over the years. Here are some of the problems with this approach: 1) Per the very good discussion on Classification in Hans Wellisch's Indexing From A to Z, it should not be incumbent upon the reader to divine the indexer's classification scheme. Simply put, a reader who wants to know about Picasso should go right to the P section and find Picasso, no ifs ands or buts. She should not have to pass GO and go to "Art" first!! Similarly, I would be upset to find information on "Circles" anywhere other than at "Circles", in the C section of the index. 2) By going out on the limb and putting Picasso under Art, having discovered this classification scheme, a reader could be led to the conclusion that under the term Art there is an all-inclusive listing of all artists covered in the book, which may not be the case. I call this the "fallacy of conclusiveness". Each time a name of an artist came up, the indexer would have to make the connection: let's see.. that goes as a subheading of Art. This is unnatural; it literally involves a "coding" process and is therefore prone to errors. 3) If the indexer also posts Picasso references at "Picasso", there is a danger that the double posting will be inconsistent. Some times a page locator will go at both places, and other times the indexer will forget that they placed it at both places. This is a universal problem related to double postings and not specific to the concept of overclassification. In other words, it's hard enough for an indexer to catch every error in good double postings in the editing process, much less when she/he has gone on an overclassifying binge. 4) Given that Picasso will probably have lots of subheadings, putting it at "Art" would lead to sub-sub heads or worse. A book on art *should* have a very moderate listing under Art such as.. Art ... history of.. role in politics.. importance of studying ... See also specific Artists and Schools of art, i.e., Impressionism; Realism For the same reasons as above, I don't agree with Barbara's suggestion to put "Circles" under "Geometrical figures", although I would agree that at least here it has a better claim to belonging. "Geometrical figures" would not be a bad place to list, either with locators if appropriate or "see" references, the main types of geometrical figures, i.e., a clearinghouse for geometrical figures, along with "aspects of" type terms, such as "constructing", and "mensuration". Then, under a main heading "Conic sections" could be "see also Circles; Ellipses, etc..., along with similar subheadings like "constructing" and "mensuration", now referring specifically to conic sections. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:13:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@compuserve.com> Subject: Re Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I wasn't going to contribute to this discussion, but ... I simply can't resist any longer. I absolutely agree with Marilyn Rowland's response. Professional indexers should view themselves as a *business* and take overhead expenses, insurance, marketing, etc. into consideration when setting rates. That's an especially important consideration when you think about your income potential, which may be no more than a few hundred dollars one month (especially when your just getting started) and several thousand dollars the next month. Marketing efforts often take a long time to pay off, no matter how long you've been a freelancer. For example, I got a call yesterday from a potential client I'd contacted two years ago! As Barbara Cohen and Marilyn Rowland both noted, ASI should collect more accurate and more current information about what professional indexers earn. Lori ************************************************************************ Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com or LMLathrop@aol.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4011 / Home: 303-567-9533 ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:13:58 ECT Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Marilyn's comments about clients paying top prices for good indexing, I agree that some of my clients pay me at a higher rate than they pay other indexers (at least from what I can glean from what other indexers say they are earning). I have always felt that my rates were fair, and I cannot work for less than a certain amount, to cover overhead, health insurance, rent on my office, cost of updating software, trade publications, etc.... I believe that an educated client understands this. Therefore, I regard it as part of my responsibility to our profession to educate each of my clients about appropriate rates and working conditions. Every indexer who agrees to work for less money than another indexer just to secure a job undercuts the professionalism of the rest of us. But I don't know any reasonable way to keep people from doing so. My assumption is that after several years of substandard wages, these people find some other means of employment, while those of us making reasonable salaries stick with it. Barbara (my $.02 on the subject) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:14:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries In-Reply-To: <199509081624.AA07910@lamb.sas.com> from "Elinor Lindheimer" at Sep 8, 95 11:22:48 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Lynn Moncrief brought up a point I have pondered, so I thought I'd > ask for some other input here. Like her, I prefer to put "and" at the > end rather than the beginning of a subentry. What do others think? > > Elinor Lindheimer I also prefer "and" at the end. I think it makes scanning easier, and it follows my principle of putting the most important word first (when possible). Joan Stout sasjcs@unx.sas.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:14:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 8 September 1995 Hear, hear to Marilyn Rowland and Janet Perlman! I recently had the experience of being offered an index by a well-regarded university press for whom I have worked for many years, at a rate somewhat less than I usually charge (and somewhat less than they have usually paid!). When they refused to meet my customary rate, I asked why, and they said that they had done a survey of what other publishers were paying and, based on what they had decided was a standard rate, had felt that it was unfair to their authors to have indexers ask for different rates (why should one author have to pay more for an index than another?), so from now on, they were simply going to pay one set per-page rate for *all* the indexes they contracted out, regardless of the particular freelancer's experience, quality of work, background, familiarity with subject matter, etc.!! I was amazed at this notion (do all doctors or plumbers charge the same rates?), and find myself resentful (not for the first time) at publishers who intervene between an indexer's ability to charge a rate she/he feel is fair (based on experience, background, subject specialization, etc.) and authors who are seeking indexers. Ultimately, I declined to work for the rate they suggested: it made me feel exploited and devalued, but I regret having lost a steady client. If university presses are comparing rates, I think ASI should be comparing rates too! Have any of the rest of you run into this kind of restriction on rate-setting by presses that you've worked for? Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:14:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Lynn Moncrief brought up a point I have pondered, so I thought I'd ask for >some other input here. Like her, I prefer to put "and" at the end rather >than the beginning of a subentry. What do others think? > >Elinor Lindheimer I agree. Same logic for prepositions. Avoids the issue of alphabetization so dear to the heart of Dr. Wellisch and others. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota "Windows 95? I'll wait for the Mac version." -Dilbert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:14:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing In-Reply-To: <9509081619.AA10066@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would concur with this and other comments, though I DON'T agree that indexing rates should be dependent on where you live. The cost of living in the Puget Sound (where I currently live) is admittedly considerably higher than Omaha (where I lived 9 years ago); but my CLIENTS are everywhere from New York City (the bulk of them, as a matter of fact!) to Cypress (yes, the European one!). The quality of my work (and its value to the client) has absolutely nothing to do with where I live. And we ALL (regardless of residence) should be charging rates based on the value of our services - not our local cost of living! Which is why I would urge ASI to take a PROACTIVE role in collecting information about prevailing rates and making that information available to the membership. For most salaried jobs, there is information readily available about prevailing wages - in the professional literature, in published job advertisements, or (in some cases) in the minimum salary that is acceptable for listing a job announcement. Freelance indexers, on the other hand, are at the mercy of LACK of information. How is a newbie to know that $8/hr [offered by one of the mainline publishers I refuse to work for] is not reasonable, or that $.75/pg for a technical journal is an insult?? Once an indexer has been around a while and plugged into the grapevine, you get a general idea of the norms; but for somebody just starting out, "What is your rate?" is the most terrifying question imaginable. I currently quote $25/hr as my base, with per/page or per/entry rates calculated based on the job. But is that rate high? Low? On target? I have absolutely no idea. Until we ALL start discussing our rates openly and/or have the information collected/published annually, we are ALL equally in the dark. I am currently satisfied with my indexing income (I moonlight as an indexer with a full-time day job) since I have all the work I can handle on a part-time basis and actually turn down about every third job offer due to lack of time. But it would be nice to know if I'm earning the prevailing rate for all those moonlight hours, or when I should raise my rates. Not being a fungus, I prefer NOT to be kept in the dark and fed sh.. Let's publicize prevailing rates! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Kevin wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Considering that the freelancer must also pay his own insurance, cover > his own so-called social security (to rip off Merle Haggard), and provide > for his own retirement, this is not and never will be a road to easy riches. > While articles like these may cause consternation among current indexers > that a horde of "newbie" indexers will soon be descending like locusts, they > have appeared in the past to no great affect. People who are looking for > get-rich-quick schemes and easy work-at-home jobs will soon drift off to > other more lucrative areas as they discover the amount of intellectual > effort required to index. But should they stick it out and discover the > dual joys of self-reliance and the happiness that comes from doing what you > were meant to do, as I have, then they deserve to be indexers. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:15:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Kevin's right. Let's remember that $50,000 doesn't mean the same thing all over the country. As a California-based indexer, the person quoted in the article isn't making all that much money at $50K -- by California standards. For California, that's peanuts. But let's not fall into the trap of judging the entire country by California and New York. There are many, many parts of the country, in fact, probably most of the rest of the country, excluding some of the other big cities, where that's a very livable salary. I worked for 12 years for municipal government here in Phoenix, got a master's degree, and never came anywhere near that figure. That's a lot of money to me! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:15:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia D Bertelsen Subject: Re: Money magazine article on indexing In-Reply-To: <199509081635.LAA09607@batch1.csd.uwm.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I was glad to see Hazel's letter to Money Magazine and I agree with every word she said. It is too bad that ASI and the USDA course are receiving excessive attention from the non-committed, but perhaps some of that attention will bring a greater awareness of the importance of indexing (and hence salaries that approach the "magical" figure of $50,000). In another vein: I would like to see some discussion on how to deal with authors who try to bargain for cheaper per page rates. Does anyone have some good, proven tactics that eliminate the feeling of haggling for a rug in a Third World market? (I am a beginning indexer, I need the work, but I also have my pride!) Thanks, Cindy Bertelsen Blacksburg, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:46:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard Shrout, LIB, (202) 514-5102" Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Elinor, I rarely use "and" in a subheading; however, from now on, I will put it at the end. It makes just as much sense that way and should make the index easier for the reader to use. Richard Shrout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:46:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Saints' Days, decision about In-Reply-To: <199509080713.CAA13023@zoom.bga.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks everyone for the suggestions and comments. For those of you who'd like to know what I did, the answer is: Saint John's Day, xx John, Saint. See Saint John's Day Religion feast days, xx-yy So, when you come across this in the next index you read, remember you all had a part in it! Thanks again, Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:47:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Survey of Rates ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello everyone. After reading the numerous posts about indexing, $50K/yr, and Reality, I thought that there seems to be a consensus forming for a survey of rates sponsored by ASI. As a member (and some-time leader) of a couple of non-profit organizations, I realize ASI wants to avoid anything that looks like rate-setting. However, a survey of last year's rates, responded to anonymously, wouldn't pose a problem. The Special Libraries Association does a biannual salary survey, publishes the overall results in its journal, and sells the complete survey for a reasonable price. I know that such a survey could be expensive. We could include a one-page self-mailer as one of the pages of _Key Words_. That would reduce the cost somewhat. To make the survey useful in several ways, we could included questions that separate the type of client served. I'd also like to see something about the experience and background of the respondents. Another way to distribute the survey is via our web site. (It would be interesting to see how many respond via the website and how many via surface mail.) What do you (all) think? Has the time come? Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:50:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: rates ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Which is why I would urge ASI to take a PROACTIVE role in collecting >information about prevailing rates and making that information available >to the membership. For most salaried jobs, there is information readily >available about prevailing wages - in the professional literature, in >published job advertisements, or (in some cases) in the minimum salary >that is acceptable for listing a job announcement. Freelance indexers, >on the other hand, are at the mercy of LACK of information. Hi, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm one of the many people who were attracted to indexing by reading the MONEY article. Like some of the others, I am gathering as much information as I can about the profession. Index-L was a wonderful discovery. I'm enjoying the whole discussion. (I'm also one of the new ASI members). From everything I've learned, here and elsewhere, indexing fits my talents and inclinations like a glove. I hope I'll be adding to the discussions in a year or so. I admit the $50,000 is attractive. I'd love to telecommute and still be able to earn anything like a living wage, but that's not the attraction. Wish me luck. BUT that's not why I'm writing this note. I wanted to insert a note of warning. Indexers are freelancers and they aren't in the same category as wage earners. Publishing rates online, or in a document could put you at risk of violating anti-trust laws. As a service provider it could be the same as auto manufacturers holding a meeting and deciding to charge the same price for cars. OR real estate brokers calling a meeting and telling each other what their commission rates will be for the next year. I'm not a lawyer but I think caution is in order. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:51:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Carolyn, and others who may have misunderstood me: I didn't intend to imply that rates should be dependent on where you live. Not at all! My clients too are all over the country. And I'd hate to be paid according to the cost of living in my city, where wages and prices are very low compared to national norms. No, indeed! What I meant was that the significance of the $50,000 must be taken in context with the location where the person is living. Whereas you and I might find that figure high, the person quoted was in California, where it isn't a high income at all. In other words, what that $50K will buy depends on where the person lives. On rates, I'm with you, Carolyn. We are all shooting in the dark due to a lack of knowledge about prevailing rates. To my way of thinking, that holds all of us back. It's time to come out of the closet, get some good salary survey information, and treat our indexing as a business, not a pet project! Barbara, to respond: As for those indexers who accept low rates .... there's a time in a beginning indexer's life when it may be necessary to accept those jobs, to get a foot in the door, some credits on your resume. But, and this is a big BUT, the time should come, very quickly, when these new indexers should no longer be willing to work for such low rates, and they should be vocal about explaining why to their clients, when that time comes. We all have to start somewhere. The trick is to start and move on, upward, and not stay there, underpaid and thankful for the work. We need to move forward, have a business plan, and reject low wages once we are seasoned indexers. Accepting low rates for a short time as a breaking-into-the-field strategy is not the same as remaining underpaid for the long haul. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:52:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andree Rathemacher Subject: ?Indexing software for Macintosh? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, I'm interested in obtaining indexing software for the Macintosh which I could use to index a bi-weekly political newspaper to which I subscribe. I am not really familiar with indexing software in general, although I have heard that ProCite can be used for indexing. Does anyone know of any type of indexing software for the Mac which exists? Or, if not,_any_personal computer indexing software which could be used for this task? Thank you in advance for your advice. Please send replies to me personally, at arat9637@uriacc.uri.edu, as I am not subscribed to this listserv. Thanks again, ANDREE RATHEMACHER ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:52:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Comeau Subject: "and" in subentries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Elinor Lindheimer wrote: >Lynn Moncrief brought up a point I have pondered, so I thought I'd ask for >some other input here. Like her, I prefer to put "and" at the end rather >than the beginning of a subentry. What do others think? I'm an editor rather than an indexer, but I thought I'd offer my opinion. I prefer "and" at the beginning, despite the fact that it requires the reader to do some quick scanning for the important word of the subentry. (We almost always use run-in subentries, so readers are already having to do some scanning.) I think my preference comes from a gut reaction to having a phrase end in a conjunction. The same problem with prepositions is unavoidable when the subentry has a certain grammatical relationship to the main entry, but where it can easily be avoided (with conjunctions) I prefer to do so. Jennifer L. Comeau Project Editor University of Nebraska Press jcomeau@unlinfo.unl.edu (402) 472-7703 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:56:02 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Professional indemnity/Legal action ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does anyone know of any legal action relating to errors in database (or other) indexing? Do any of you have Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover you for possible action against negligent work? Glenda Browne. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:56:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HMartell@UH.EDU Subject: Money Magazine article ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree that indexers who charge less to secure a job hurt the profession; however, an indexer that is new to the profession or even one with a couple of years of experience, might have some difficulties in determining which rates are reasonable and which are too low, due to the lack of accurate, "realistic" information on this matter. >From the sources available to me, I gather that indexers charge between $2.50 to $5.00 per page depending on some variables. I personally, cannot work for less than to $3.00 per page (I index scholarly books in a foreign language and do not get many assignments), but, is this fair or too low? How do I know I am not hurting the profession? Does anybody charge $5.00, and if so, in what circunstances? Perhaps, a yearly survey undertaken by ASI, might help the individual indexer as well as the profession. In this survey there is no need to put names of indexers or publishers, only rates according to type of index, subject matter, type of book, etc. This might also give a more realistic view of the profession to outsiders. Helvetia Martell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:57:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Re Summary of responses re citing electronic documents ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear Index-L subscribers, My sincere thanks to all who bent their minds and searched their files for information about citing electronic documents. The following is a rough summary of the responses I received and the citations I finally came up with. There are more publications out there about citing electronic documents than I realized. Various Index-L subscribers sent me the following: Frost, C.O. Media access and organization : a cataloguing and reference sources guide for nonbook materials. Englewood, Colo.: Libraries Unlimited, 1989. li, Xia and Nancy B. Crane. Electronic Style: A Guide to Citing Electronic Information. Westport, Conn.: Meckler, 1993. ISBN 0-88736-909-X. Marko, L. "Bibliographic description of computer files : lessons learned from a case study." In Computer Files and the Research Library, edited by C. C. Gould. Mountain View, Ca : the Research Libraries Group, 1990. Patria, Karen. Recommended Formats for Bibliographic Citation. Bethesda, Md.: National Library of Medicine Reference Section, 1991. Distributed by NTIS. Order no. PB91-182930/GBB. Olson, N. Cataloguing Computer files. Lake Crystal, Min.: Soldier Creek Press, 1992. Sheble, M.A. and G. B. Sheble. "Cataloguing in the `Paperless Information' Age." Cataloguing & Classification Quarterly, 13, no. 1 (1991): 3-29. There is also an ISO standard in the making: ISO/DIS 690-2 (number of the draft) Standard for Citations to Electronic Documents. (Eventual number to be ISO TC46/SC 9). Copies available, at cost of $35, from: ISO TC46/SC9 Secretariat: Office of Library Standards National Library of Canada Ottawa, ON Canada K1A 0N4 Or from: NISO Press Fulfillment Phone: 800-282-6476 or 654-2512 Fax: 301-567-9553 And finally, the Chicago Manual has indeed caught up, as I knew they would in time: The Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed. Chicago and London: University of Chicago Press, 1993. Sections 15.423 and 15.424, and 16.208, discuss computer programs and electronic documents. Several examples are given, and these are described as Chicago's adaptation of the proposed ISO standard within its own style. The only one of the above sources I was able to get hold of in time for my deadline was Chicago Manual 14. It didn't directly address online databases or specific files mounted on them, so I also worked in some of the features from two examples citing databases and database files from the Li and Crane book, send to me by Lori Lathrop, which I was extremely glad to have.. These two examples came closer to the type of electronic document I was citing than those in Chicago Manual 14. The discernable pattern appeared to be to give the person or group primarily responsible for creating the document, the title, production information, and information about where it was available. After each set of information, one designates the nature of the preceding information in square brackets. (Presumably this is because the order of information is not yet standard or known to many people, so one has to tell them?) In my citations, I gave the title, the place of production of the document, the producer, and the year of production. This is followed by the designation [Producer] in square brackets. Then the site, i.e., the database, where the document is stored and can be accessed, and its location. Li and Crane use [Online] to designate this information; Chicago Manual 14 uses [online database]. I used [Online] because I preferred the capital, and it was shorter, a matter of convenience. (Space was at a premium in the bibliography I was compiling; save lines wherever possible.) So, the citation for an online authority file: Art & Architecture Thesaurus File. Williamstown, Mass.: AAT, 1990- [Producer]. In Research Libraries Information Network [Online]. Mountain View. Calif.: Research Libraries Group, Inc. The citation for a listserve: AAT-L. Hosted by David Austin at the University of illinois at Chicago. 1995-. Available from LISTSERV@UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU or LISTSERV@UICVM.BITNET. No special type faces or quotes for the name of the file or listserve is used in either. The name of the AAT as an online file is not a "true" title, more like a descriptive phrase used for the title of a book that has none on its title page. I could find no precedent for treating the name of a listserve like a title, so I didn't apply any special devices for it. I'm really not sure a listserve ought to be cited like a document in any case. It's more like an address where you can send and access documents. Thus endeth the question for me for one particular project. I look forward to seeing some of the works cited above when I canacquire them, in particular the Li and Crane work and the ISO standard. I'm sure the citations could have been done differently and still been as correct, or incorrect. At present there appears to still be a fair amount of leeway. Hopefully readers will understand the citations I compiled. Thanks again for all the help from Index-L. Sincerely, Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:57:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries In-Reply-To: <199509080711.CAA12799@zoom.bga.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lynn, In part of your response to Carol Roberts' subentry question you wrote: | BTW, just as a purely personal preference, I usually tack "and" onto the | end of a subentry unless there is a strong semantic reason for | using it as the first word. (Rare, but it does happen.) Would you tack the "and" on at the end of the subentry in a run-in index? It looks and "sounds" funny to me that way. I like how it "sounds" and looks in the indented style Carol used in her example. Comments anyone? Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:58:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Carol's query on geometry subheadings ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >It is a truism in indexing and a good rule to follow that the topic of a >general book should have minimal listings at the location of the book's >title, i.e., here at "geometry". But Kevin, I never said that the topic of the book was geometry!!!. Where did you get that idea? The topic of the book was 15th-century Islamic art, and there happened to be a lot of discussion of the use of geometry. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:58:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Where does "and" go? (was: Uniformity in subentries) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >> Lynn Moncrief brought up a point I have pondered, so I thought I'd >> ask for some other input here. Like her, I prefer to put "and" at the >> end rather than the beginning of a subentry. What do others think? >> >> Elinor Lindheimer > I don't see the advantage of it. Typically, other subentries will begin with words you ignore in alphabetizing: of, for, in, with. If those are going to remain at the beginning, then does it make much difference in scanning the list of subs whether all the "and" ones have the "and" at the end? >I agree. Same logic for prepositions. Avoids the issue of alphabetization >so dear to the heart of Dr. Wellisch and others. Larry, what are you proposing to do with the prepositions? Can you give some examples? Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:59:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexcel@aol.com Subject: Indexing obituaries/death notices, marriages ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You may want to examine Esther Perica's "Newspaper Indexing for Historical Societies, Colleges and High Schools." On pages 25-26, there are two models of obituary indexes. Obviously, these examples are not terribly instructive, nor do they exhaust the subject. The NY Times Obituary Index might also be worth consuting as a model since so many researchers are familiar with its formatting. To my knowledge, an updated, detailed and thoughtful manual of the various challenges to newspaper indexing does not exist. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:59:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: re Indexing Software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Check out the Australian Society of Indexers home page. There are two links: Cindex and Macrex, two commercial packages. They have contact email addresses and postal addresses there for North America as well as other parts of the world. Or as I read on Microsoft Network, there was a new Australian travel guide written by Gregorys about Manhattan, which we believed was somewhere north of Cairns! http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/affiliat.htm Under this are two links to the above package contact details... Bye Dwight AusSI Webmaster ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:00:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... In-Reply-To: <9509081628.AA13237@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree with numerous people who've written in about the Money magazine article. However, my experience is that indexers *do not* tell each other what they charge. If we're unwilling to communicate with each other about something like our rates, how in the world are we ever going to be able to get decent wages? Over the years, I have asked a number of indexers what they charge. They've been unwilling to tell. So, I've established my own scale to the best of my ability. Any number of potential customers have said to me, "You charge too much. [And remember, I'm not one of the folks who makes $50,000 per year.] I know somebody who'll do the work for $X per page." My reply has always been, "Then let me suggest that you hire that person to do the index for you, if money is your primary concern. If you want to hire someone with proven skills and satisfied customers, then hire me." I used to do a lot of work for a particular university press. Every January, I raised my rates, and the press accepted my new rates. Suddenly, the press stopped hiring me. I learned from other indexers who work for the press that the editor had found two indexers who were willing to accept $2 per indexable page. That's a rate that's totally unacceptable to me. But these two indexers are now doing all the freelance indexing for that press. And what does one do when an editor at a press says, "We pay $X per page"? If I said "no" to every customer that came in under what I'd prefer to earn, I wouldn't have any clients. So, folks, please do a favor and share with others what you charge per page/per hour/per entry, or however you charge. If you show me yours, I'll show you mine. ASI evidently hasn't done a survey on rates in years and years. I also edit, proofread, research, translate, and write. As to editing, a publisher will say, "We pay $15 per hour," or whatever. It's a take it or leave it proposition. I guess I'm supposed to leave it. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:00:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing In-Reply-To: <9509082056.AA14631@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, laura m. gottlieb wrote: > Have any of the rest of you run into this kind of restriction on > rate-setting by presses that you've worked for? Yes! Editors at presses frequently tell me what they pay for indexes, and that's that. Take it or leave it. Sometimes I take it, and sometimes I leave it. (No, I will *not* index for $2 per indexable page! No, I will not edit a 500-page-long book for $500!) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:01:10 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Passing on request for opinions.. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm passing on a message that was posted on the COPYEDITING list. I'm sure _someone_ out there has an opinion on this. :-). Please respond to Mindy, not me or the list. >Date: Thu, 07 Sep 95 22:22 CDT >From: Mindy James >To: COPYEDITING-L@CORNELL.EDU >Subject: indexing software >Message-ID: <25090722222564@vms2.macc.wisc.edu> > >i have a friend who needs to index a book (an >introductory archaeology textbook) that he's >writing. he was wondering whether the indexing tool >that's included in standard word-processing software, such >as microsoft word, is sufficient or whether any programs >exist that are devoted to creating indexes that would be better. > >he's never indexed a thing in is life, nor have i. however, >i thought that someone out there might have an opinion... > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:01:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Marilyn Rowland wrote: >I agree that ASI should have a better idea of how much indexers actually >make. I know that there are some "rate-setting" issues involved, but, I do >think ASI needs to have some good information about what indexers earn (per >hour/per year) so that we can better serve the needs of indexers and the >profession. In Australia we have a recommended rate (currently AUS$35 per hour) set by the Australian Society of Indexers. I find this rate extremely useful when quoting, both as a base rate with which to compare my own income, and as a standard which I can quote to clients. I understand that for various reasons ASI does not set a rate, but has at times published surveys of indexers' rates. A wide range of quotes will always be given for freelance work, due to quality of the work, speed of work, experience of the worker, and the freedom the person has to refuse low-paying work. I believe that our personal conditions will improve if we as a profession set higher fees; I believe that our credibility as a group will improve if we quote more consistently. I have often complained about publishers being inconsistent about the fees they are willing to pay, but I know that we are equally inconsistent about the fees we charge. Apart from having some sort of standard fee (either a recommended rate, or an average from a survey) I think we should also make the basis of our quoting clear. If we quote a low rate because we are beginners, because it is for a friend or a cause, or because we think a specific book only requires a simple index, then we should say so. Otherwise we risk bringing down the standards of pay for all indexers, because a publisher unwilling to pay standard rates can always expect to find a cheaper index. Glenda Browne -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:01:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: indexing choices ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>Glenda (not Jeremy ;-D) wrote: >>In cases like this one where the extra >>subdivisions refer to a range of pages it is obviously not so clear >>cut Lynn wrote: >This is a rule I too try to follow. However, I combine them at the >editing stage after making all entries. The reason is that the subentry >for one of those same page subdivisions may generate additional page >references that are not identical to the page references for the other >subdivision. To immediately combine them may cause a loss of resolution >or granularity, so to speak, that may be difficult to recover later on. And Glenda replies: I do this too. I find that I spend about a third of my time editing, and that I often remove or condense a third of my initial entries. I would like to know if there are ways of speeding up indexing without compromising quality. I often think that if I had a good idea of what was in the whole book that I would spend less time typing in entries that I later remove, but I find that in practice this doesn't work. A lot of my initial work may be changed or deleted during editing, but that initial work has still contributed to the content and 'shape' of the index in some way. I also find that being interested in the work I am indexing can make the work take longer, as I really want to understand everything. As I usually only accept work which I think will be interesting, I suspect that this contributes to the time I take as well. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:02:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In article <199508281757.KAA85546@callamer.com>, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I read the brief Money Magazine article on indexing. Am I the only one >out there, or does anyone else find it unbelievable that one can earn >$50,000 per year indexing? (Translation: Since I'm only making $49,999, >what am I doing wrong? ;-) ) Hazel Hazel, I'm not surprised. Using Macrex (or any other dedicated software) and assiduously trolling for new and repeat customers, I'm certain it's possible. It would also work out to be just about a full-time (or more than full-time) job. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:02:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Query: Term correction ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In article <199508281746.KAA86685@callamer.com>, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >The author of a book I am using has written a section (about 5 pages) on >what he calls "plastic surgery." However, what he really means is "cosmetic >surgery," i.e., surgery used solely for cosmetic purposes, rather than to >correct a birth defect or injury. Later in the book there is a one-page >section with several references to cosmetic surgery. > >Any suggestions for how to deal with this in the index? Do I use both terms >with cross references? Do I index only under "cosmetic surgery" with a see >reference from plastic surgery? Do I call the publisher and tell them the >author has used the incorrect term? I think it's a little late to get the publisher to consider correcting the author's terminology...you'll have to work with what you have. If it were me, I'd index the stuff under "Plastic surgery" that the author has called that...with a "See also" for Cosmetic surgery. Ditto on the turnaround...refer readers to Plastic surgery from Cosmetic surgery. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:03:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Indexing decisions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In article <199508281757.KAA16301@callamer.com>, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I am currently having an argument about some choices made in an index, and >would be interested to see whether there is agreement within INDEX-L about >these issues. The questions refer to an index with unlimited space for a 400 >page book on tobacco and smoking. > >1. Which of the following would you prefer? > >smoking prevalence 11-19, 11t-17t, 19t, 42 > and advertising 292 > and anti-smoking campaigns 217-218 > gender differences 311-315, 311t-316t > and workplace bans 124 > younger people 175, 180-181 > >OR > >smoking prevalence 11 > adults 11-12, 11t-12t > and advertising 292 > and anti-smoking campaigns 217-218 > and workplace bans 124 > by country of birth 16, 17t > by educational level 15-16, 16t > by occupational level 14-15, 15t > children 13-14, 13t-14t > gender differences 311-315, 311t-316t > young adults 14, 14t > younger people 175, 180-181 I like the second set of entries better. I'm always interested in expanding subheads to be as fully descriptive as possible, especially when space is not a limitation. The second group gives more specific detail. I would, however, invert any subentries that begin with "and" so that the main word comes first. (If you use Macrex, you can have the program ignore leading prepositions, even if they are in first place, and alphabetize by first important word. This is infinitely preferable to having all the "ands" marching at the head of the list.) >2. Or would you use Prevalence as the heading? I really don't like "Prevalence" as the main index term--it seems rather vague and inexact to me. But if it's what the author used, you're kinda stuck. In that case, I'd leave the "smoking" in. I don't think most people would think of "prevalence" when what they are wanting to know is who smokes more, males or females; or what occupational level smokes more, etc. In fact, if you can think of synoymous terms, I'd do "See" references for all of them. >3. Would you change your mind if you were told that the pages on prevalence >were the most significant pages in the book? No. It's still a poor term, but you've gotta work with what you have. > >4. Would you use the heading "ACIL Economics and Policy" or "ACIL Economics >and Policy Pty Ltd"? I'd spell out the acronym, first of all. And, depending on how the term appears in the book, I'd do a "See" reference from the acronym to the spelled-out term, or vice versa. I'd also not abbreviate Pty (which I assume stands for "party."). Abbreviating Ltd. is the usual practice. >5. Would you use a general reference "cancer 45-46, see also names of >specific cancers" or would you say "cancer, see also bladder cancer; >endometrial cancer; lung cancer; oral cavity cancer; stomach cancer" and so >on for about 10 cancers. I'd do it the first way..."See specific cancers." >6. Would it make any difference to your answer if all of the relevant >cancers were listed on pages 45-46? No. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:04:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@aol.com Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am a beginning indexer. I feel it is better for me to charge per page than per hour. I read in Keywords a suggestion that as an indexer gets faster and better, their earnings will rise if they are charging by the page rather than by the hour. The USDA course suggested charging between $2 and $5 per page depending on the level of difficulty (density) of the material. Does about $3 per page for a beginner seem reasonable if the material is not overly difficult? I'd be curious to know what the university press that Laura cited is willing to pay per page and if it falls into this range. Judy Press ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:41:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: words per book page ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Nancy Humphreys wrote, > >>do book publishers, particulary in the social >>sciences, have any kind of standard for the >>number of words per printed page in a published >>book? Having worked as a production editor some years ago, I know that the "castff and estimate" is a fundamental precursor to book design and planning. Basically, a castoff involves counting the average number of characters per line (or per some other unit), then multiplying that count by the total number of lines/pages/whatever. This is done in separate increments if there are substantially different elements in the manuscript. In other words, all basic text is cast off, then tables and charts, then art is figured in at its finished size. Any odd text (small-print bibliographies or references, extensive extracts, etc.) is also cast off separately. You end up with a character count that can be used to figure the finished size of the book--figured on the basis of what type size and page format the designer indicates. A 75,000-character ms. will obviously play out longer in 10/12 Avant Garde (a typeface with a large x-height) than it will in 9/10 Times Roman. The above explanation also clues you in as to why publishers still prefer the equivalent of a "typewriter face" (such as Courier). Proportional typefaces screw up the estimate something fierce, because an "m" takes up so much more room than an "i." If you type everything in 10-point Courier, it is MUCH easier to figure the length of the final book in any typeface you may prefer. I'd say a reasonable expectation of original ms.-to-final-book might be about 70%. My question...why is a publisher asking an indexer to even LOOK at the original ms. with an idea of figuring length of book or of index? I'd avoid making any sort of firm estimate based on an original ms., and I don't even like working from galleys. Hope this helps. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:42:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Carol's query on geometry subheadings ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Carol-- > >Here is my suggestion. > >What about breaking the main heading "geometry" into two main >headings, "geometry" and "geometrical figures"? >Barbara Wurf >BWURF@delphi.com Or "geometrical studies" and "geometrical figures"? Jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:42:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Money magazine article on indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Cindy Bertelsen wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- .... >I would like to see some discussion on how to deal with authors who try >to bargain for cheaper per page rates. Does anyone have some good, >proven tactics that eliminate the feeling of haggling for a rug in a >Third World market? (I am a beginning indexer, I need the work, but I >also have my pride!) We have prepared a handout which we send to potential clients. Amongst other things, we include a description of the steps involved in the indexing process - highlighting terms, entering them, editing them and then repeatedly running through the index to test for consistency and comprehensiveness. We point out that any corner-cutting can only be done in steps 1 or 4, resulting in a shallower index and/or an 'untidy', less comprehensive one. This helps to convince a client that, first, we know our business, and secondly that cutting costs has a disproportionately damaging effect on the resulting index. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:43:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Subject: Editing/copyediting listserv ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Would anyone on this indexing listserv know the address for an editing or copyediting listserv? I do both indexing and editing and enjoy this forum a lot - would most probably enjoy the other as well! Thanks in advance. Patricia Buchanan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:44:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Abrams Subject: epithets & pejorative labels ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Is it non-PC for an index term to refer IN QUOTATION MARKS to a particular racist, sexist, or outgroup epithet? Case in point: a scholarly publisher sent me an ORAL HISTORY book to index on the WWII Hanford (Wash.) Engineering Works plutonium production facility. Several quotes mention, in a praiseworthy manner, the skills and productivity of itinerant construction laborers originating from Oklahoma and Arkansas ("Oakies & Arkies"). I've indexed this as: "Hanford Works, workforce at"; and, "Oklahomans and Arkansans as construction workers." Should indexers use pejorative terms directly, as cross-references, or not at all? The AP Style Manual is silent (thus does not condone); LC Subject Headings is silent (except, see "Rednecks"!). John Steinbeck said: "Don't mean nothing itself, it's the way they say it." I'm uncertain, but tend to believe that cross referencing would be insulting when referring from a problematic label to a euphemism (White trash, See Appalachian Region, Southern; or, Mojados, See Alien labor, Mexican). An uncivil term has no civil equivalent. My question: Is it ever OK to set off the indecorous term with quotation marks (at the risk of perpetuating old errors)? [::::::: William Abrams, Chief Serials Cataloger +++ Portland State Univ. Library, P.O. Box 1151, Portland, OR 97207 +++ (503) 725-4574 Fax (503) 725-5799 ++++ abrams@godzilla.lib.pdx.edu :::::::] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:44:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Linda K. Fetters" Subject: KeyWords Correction ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Please send the following out on Index-L: An error was made on page 49 of the current issue (Jul/Aug 95) of KeyWords. The advertisement "Indexing Instruction" at the top of the page has an incorrect Phone/Fax number. The correct number is 011-44-1683-220440. Also, their e-mail address is 101233.2664@compuserve.com. Please accept our apology for any inconvenience this may have caused. Bobbie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:44:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@aol.com Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on indexing (Laura Gottlieb comment) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I was amused (and saddened) by Laura Gottlieb's comment about the publisher who decided to adopt a system of uniform pricing, regardless of content or technical difficulty, on the grounds of fairness to authors. I suppose that one could call this Procrustean Pricing. (Remember Procrustes? He was the mythological Greek giant who stretched or shortened captives to fit his iron bed.) I sometimes take comfort in reflecting that one should never attribute to malevolence that which can adequately be explained by stupidity... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:45:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: ASI Twin Cities Chapter meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- -------- The Twin Cities Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will hold a meeting on September 30, 1995, at noon, at the Merriam Park Library in Saint Paul (1831 Marshall Avenue, corner of Marshall and Fairview). Our speaker will be Dan Dabney of the Electronic Products Development division of West Publishing. His presentation is entitled "Are People Necessary? Trends in Automatic Indexing and Natural Language Searching." He'll talk about some recent developments in indexing and searching research. Dan has a law degree as well as degrees in library and information science, and he has taught at library schools and has run an information brokerage. There is no charge for the meeting, and information management folks of all kinds are especially welcome. Feel free to bring a bag lunch. Questions? Call Maryann Corbett, chapter chair, at 612-297-2952 (work) or 612-645-5985 (home), or send e-mail to maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us An added note to Twin Cities chapter members on this list: Because of the recent list discussions on money and pay, our March meeting will be devoted to those topics. Call me any time with ideas! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:45:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: maryann@mnrosdp.revisor.leg.state.mn.us Subject: places to post meeting announcement? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear index-l folks, I've posted our Twin Cities ASI meeting announcement on index-l, asis-l, copyediting-l and will put it on techwr-l. It seems to me librarians might also be interested but I don't know what other lists librarians read. (I'm one of the few lonely non-librarian indexers.) Would people please send me some suggested lists, with subscription and/or posting information? You can reply directly to me at: maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us Thanks for your help. Maryann Corbett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:45:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: wyldfire@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>geometry >> and architect/artisan training, 132P133, 139P140, 152P154 >> and arithematic, 133, 139, 140 >> branches of, 139, 140 >> circles, 133 >> classical influence on, 131P133, 138, 139P140, 152 >> conic sections, 141, 145 >> and cosmology, 133 >> drafting instruments, 138, 141, 145P146 >> manuals, 123, 133 >> mensuration, 141, 152 >> as metaphor for divine unity, 81, 103 >> methods of constructing figures, 138, 147P150 >> as purifying, 103P104 >> uses of, 132P133 > >I think you made excellent choices on which ones to use "and" with. You >may be able to get away with omitting "and" from the first subentry or >you could replace it with "in" as in "in architect/artisan training". >IMHO "and" is essential for the subentries "arithmetic" and "cosmology" >where someone may otherwise confuse them as being subsets of geometry. >BTW, just as a purely personal preference, I usually tack "and" onto >the end of a subentry unless there is a strong semantic reason for >using it as the first word. (Rare, but it does happen.) Those are >interesting page ranges, BTW, with "P" instead of a hyphen or en dash. > >Lynn Moncrief >TECHindex & Docs Thanks very much Lynn (and others who've replied). The consensus seems to be that it's OK to mix 'em this way and that I should spell "arithmetic" correctly. ;-) BTW, those p's are Eudora's way of interpreting an en dash. I hadn't noticed how they came out (I clipped this out of the actual index). Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:49:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Janet Perlman wrote: > Whereas you and I >might find that figure high, the person quoted was in California, where it >isn't a high income at all. In other words, what that $50K will buy depends >on where the person lives. California indexer chiming in. Here in Orange County, $50K won't even get you a mortgage on an average house. Try $60K. (We have many apartment complexes around here. ;-D) And as Janet said elsewhere in her post, my clients are spread across the country, so I can't successfully charge "California" rates for all of them. BTW, not all California publishers pay "California" rates either. ;-) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:49:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Survey of Rates ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Neva, I support your ideas. Very good information re the Special Libraries Association survey. Regarding the price-fixing issue, I would think that the proper verbiage inserted into the survey and any compilation of results as to it being a "retrospective survey, intended as an analysis and representation of the range of rates charged in 19XX by professional indexers" would keep us on the legal side. It is up to ASI to consult attorneys to determine the legalities involved in doing such a survey. Once they do that, assuming it is a possibility to do the survey, I'd like to see it as an insert in KeyWords, to keep the charges down. Before that, though I'd like to suggest that ASI advertise and tap its members' expertise for survey preparation and analysis of results. There must be people in ASI who have survey experience, and members with SPSS expertise to analyze the results. That would keep the costs down. A survey is only worth doing if it is a high-quality survey, put together by knowledgable folks. Let's go for it! I'd hesitate to post my rates in a public forum, but would gladly participate in an ASI survey and answer honestly. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:51:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: salary survey ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The ASI board is putting the salary survey on the agenda for the Oct. 7 board meeting. All of the input from Index-L and AOL is extremely helpful--indexers are making their voices heard! Elinor Lindheimer President American Society of Indexers elinorl@mcn.org Elinor Lindheimer Mendocino, California elinorl@mcn.org voice: (707) 937-1646 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:51:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Indexing software for Macintosh In-Reply-To: <199509131349.IAA12435@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Andree and readers of INDEX-L - Below is a text version of the ASI Web Page about Indexing software. The bottom half of the text is a list of dedicated indexing software. There is one package for Macs: HyperIndex (created, by the way, by a man named Andre). Thanks to Jan Wright (JanCW@aol.com) for compiling this info and for writing the descriptions. -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% INDEXING TOOLS The software tools used to generate indexes come in many flavors and varieties. Which technique is used depends on variables such as budget, eventual re-usability of the source material, time constraints, media used to publish the material, file sizes and transferral issues, and individual preferences. There are essentially six different methodologies for indexing: Standalone or Dedicated tools, usually used for back-of-the-book indexes, allow indexers to work from page-numbered galleys. The indexing is completely separate from the published material. Dedicated indexing tools are listed below. Embedding tools allow indexing codes to be embedded in the electronic text of a book or file, and index's locators are updated as text changes. Indexers must work in the same files as the publishers. Tagging tools allow indexing codes to be embedded in the electronic text after the indexing is complete. The indexer inserts numbered dummy tags in the files, and then builds the index separately. The final step uses macros to insert the indexing at each tag in the files. Many of these tools are developed in-house to fit the publishing group's needs. Keywording is used primarily in online help materials. It can be hard-coded jumps, similar to WWW links, or it can be inserted as embedded coding and built into a list by the software. Automated indexing software, a tool that now accompanies most word-processing software, builds a concordance, or a word list, from processed files. Although the manufacturers often claim these packages build indexes, the actual results are a list of words and phrases, sometimes useful in the beginning stages of building and index. Usability tests of these packages have shown that the word lists omit many key ideas and phrases, and cannot fine-tune terminology for easy retrieval, or build the needed hierarchies of ideas that professional indexing can. Free-text and weighted-text searching tools are not discussed in these pages, but are aspects of information retrieval that indexers are very interested in. Dedicated Indexing Software Note: Our goal is to provide a list of dedicated software geared toward professional indexers in general. Indexers certainly use other software packages in their work as needed, and to list all the available tools would be an enormous task. We also do not want to cross the line between providing useful product information and providing advertising. Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, New York 14618 (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com HyperIndex (for Macs) Andre De Tienne Peirce Edition Project, IUPUI CA 545, 425 University Blvd Indianapolis, IN 46202-5140 (317) 274-2033
Adetienn@indycms.iupui.edu IndexAid2 Santa Barbara Software Products 1400 Dover Road Santa Barbara, CA 93103 (805) 963-4886 IndexCheck Leverage Technologies, Inc. P.O. Box 470086 Cleveland, OH 44147-0086 (216) 838-1203 Indexer's Assistant INQUIRY 195 Sunny Hill Road Northampton, PA 18067 (215) 837-9615 INDEXX Norman Swart 1053 Ridley Drive Burnaby, BC V5A 2N7 Canada (604) 420-7454 IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com wINDEX Watch City Software 24 Harris Street Waltham, MA 02154 (617) 893-0514 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:51:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: rates In-Reply-To: <9509131514.AA11702@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Sharon Hughes wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I wanted to insert a note of > warning. Indexers are freelancers and they aren't in the same category as > wage earners. Publishing rates online, or in a document could put you at > risk of violating anti-trust laws. As a service provider it could be the > same as auto manufacturers holding a meeting and deciding to charge the same > price for cars. OR real estate brokers calling a meeting and telling each > other what their commission rates will be for the next year. I'm not a > lawyer but I think caution is in order. The same discussion came up on copyediting-l. I *am* a lawyer, but I'm no expert on antitrust matters. However, I don't believe that discussing freelance rates violates antitrust laws. Publishers, after all, discuss what to pay freelancers, and many publishers get their ideas about what to pay from each other. And nobody's going after them. An example: People who own body shops in Tallahassee, Florida, are frequently in touch with people who own body shops in southern Georgia to find out what they're charging. No one's yelling price fixing here. Face it: Freelancers are pretty small fish to fry. Anyone who's interested in pushing an antitrust suit would be going after folks who have deep pockets. Freelancers and most publishers just don't fit into that category. I would strongly suggest that we not be concerned about "price fixing." I think we're pursuing a red herring here. We ought to be honest with each other about what we earn. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Avoid fried meats which angry up the blood. If your stomach disputes you, lie down and pacify it with cool thoughts. Keep the juices flowing by jangling around gently as you move. Go very light on the vices, such as carrying on in society. The social ramble ain't restful. Avoid running at all times. Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you."--Satchel Paige ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:37:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: Charlotte Skuster From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Apologies and some changes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This message was originally submitted by cskuster@LIBRARY.LIB.BINGHAMTON.EDU to the INDEX-L list at BINGVMB. If you simply forward it back to the list, it will be distributed with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will need to remove this paragraph before mailing the results to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (18 lines) ------------------ Because of the large volume of messages being posted to index-l (I am not complaining...the discussions have been wonderful!)...and the large volume of work required of me in my day job at this time of year, I had quite a back log of messages to send out today. My apologies for any jams in mailboxes this might have caused. To avoid such problems in the near future, I am setting index-l on auto-pilot so that messages will go out as they come in. You will be subjected to the occasional subscribe/unsubscribe message but it should not be too bad. I'll leave it at that for at least the next month. I will continue reading messages of course, so that I can answer moderator-directed questions. Thanks for your patience. Charlotte Skuster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:37:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: wyldfire@ix.netcom.com (Lynn Moncrief) From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Indexing decisions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This message was originally submitted by wyldfire@IX.NETCOM.COM to the INDEX-L list at BINGVMB. If you simply forward it back to the list, it will be distributed with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will need to remove this paragraph before mailing the results to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (28 lines) ------------------ You wrote: >>2. Or would you use Prevalence as the heading? > >I really don't like "Prevalence" as the main index term--it seems rather >vague and inexact to me. But if it's what the author used, you're kinda >stuck. > =Sonsie= > I don't like "prevalence" either as a main heading for the same reason. After having followed this "prevalence" thread for about a week now, I was amused early this morning when I found myself being forced to use "prevalence" as a main heading. (At 4am there isn't much that doesn't amuse me.) The book is a textbook where the indexer is expected to include all bold-faced vocabulary words, no matter how much they distort the structure of the index or how silly they seem as entries. (This is aside from the hoops one jumps through when faced with adjectives and verbs as vocabulary words.) I'm considering tacking a scope note onto it as in "prevalence (of obesity)". That should satisfy the publisher's guidelines and the need for clarity. Though, feel free to chime in, folks, with differing opinions. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:38:31 ECT Reply-To: "Neva J. Smith" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: "Neva J. Smith" From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: places to post meeting announcement? In-Reply-To: <199509131907.OAA28240@zoom.bga.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This message was originally submitted by njsmith@BGA.COM to the INDEX-L list at BINGVMB. If you simply forward it back to the list, it will be distributed with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will need to remove this paragraph before mailing the results to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (17 lines) ------------------ Maryann, Try PACS-L (Public Access Computer Systems Forum), listserv@uhupvm1.uh.edu to subscribe. LIBREF-L, for reference librarians, might also be a good place. Subscription request to listserv@kentvm.kent.edu. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:38:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: Kevin From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Re: Query: Term correction ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This message was originally submitted by indexer@INETCOM.NET to the INDEX-L list at BINGVMB. If you simply forward it back to the list, it will be distributed with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will need to remove this paragraph before mailing the results to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (57 lines) ------------------ 199508281746.KAA86685@callamer.com wrote: >>The author of a book I am using has written a section (about 5 pages) on >>what he calls "plastic surgery." However, what he really means is "cosmetic >>surgery," i.e., surgery used solely for cosmetic purposes, rather than to >>correct a birth defect or injury. Later in the book there is a one-page >>section with several references to cosmetic surgery. >> >>Any suggestions for how to deal with this in the index? Do I use both terms >>with cross references? Do I index only under "cosmetic surgery" with a see >>reference from plastic surgery? Do I call the publisher and tell them the >>author has used the incorrect term? Sonsie replied: >I think it's a little late to get the publisher to consider correcting >the author's terminology...you'll have to work with what you have. If it >were me, I'd index the stuff under "Plastic surgery" that the author has >called that...with a "See also" for Cosmetic surgery. Ditto on the >turnaround...refer readers to Plastic surgery from Cosmetic surgery. > =Sonsie= I second Sonsie's idea. Reader's will often be tuned in, rightly or wrongly, to the author's terminology. And that's where they'll expect to find the index entry. A "see also" from cosmetic surgery is cool, but if there are only a few page locators, I would just post the locators at both places. Since this is such a widespread dilemma, I have my own system worked out that I use when I'm not sure of the ultimate disposition of terms. I'll put a "see also" at *each* of the two terms referring to the other one, then put the actual page references at the one that I think will be the main point of entry. Then during the editing process, I cross check the cross referenced terms (sounds dangerous) and determine which is the better entry point based on 1) the author's usage and 2) my own judgement. If there are several subheads, the loser gets a "see" to the winner. If there are'nt, I just double post. Of course both of the "see alsos" are lost, unless there's a valid reason for keeping one or the other. In the cosmetic surgery/plastic surgery case a "see also" may be called for since if I understand correctly the author used the terms both 1) correctly in their slightly different meanings at one spot (at least using cosmetic surgery correctly) and 2) incorrectly as synonyms, i.e., using plastic surgery when cosmetic surgery was actually meant at another spot. The CINDEX "REFER/limit=1" command helps by letting you know when you have made a "see" reference to a term with no subheadings (limit=1)or any number you specify (limit=N). Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:08:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: rates In article <199509131415.HAA21324@callamer.com>, you wrote: >BUT that's not why I'm writing this note. I wanted to insert a note of >warning. Indexers are freelancers and they aren't in the same category as >wage earners. Publishing rates online, or in a document could put you at >risk of violating anti-trust laws. As a service provider it could be the >same as auto manufacturers holding a meeting and deciding to charge the same >price for cars. OR real estate brokers calling a meeting and telling each >other what their commission rates will be for the next year. I'm not a >lawyer but I think caution is in order. I don't see how DISCUSSING rates can possibly be in violation of any antitrust laws. I haven't heard anyone suggest that we SET rates, or establish minimums, or anything similar. I'm all in favor of reading about what others charge, sharing my own rates and contract details, etc. Keeping everyone in the dark almost guarantees that the publishers will have the upper hand in anything involving rates. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:08:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Money Magazine article In article <199509131424.HAA30821@callamer.com>, you wrote: >>From the sources available to me, I gather that indexers charge between >$2.50 to $5.00 per page depending on some variables. I personally, cannot >work for less than to $3.00 per page (I index scholarly books in a foreign >language and do not get many assignments), but, is this fair or too low? >How do I know I am not hurting the profession? Does anybody charge $5.00, >and if so, in what circunstances? I charge $2.50 per page, normally, and the bulk of my work is indexing college and graduate-level textbooks for major publishers and book packagers. I've occasionally charged $3.50 a page for very technical science texts, and I am being paid $3.00 per page by a legal publisher for ongoing projects. > >Perhaps, a yearly survey undertaken by ASI, might help the individual >indexer as well as the profession. In this survey there is no need to put >names of indexers or publishers, only rates according to type of index, >subject matter, type of book, etc. This might also give a more realistic >view of the profession to outsiders. I think this would be a terrific idea! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:08:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Survey of Rates In article <199509131430.HAA24973@callamer.com>, you wrote: >What do you (all) think? Has the time come? >Neva Yes, it has, Neva. I'm a fairly new member of ASI (just renewed for my second year), but I'd be delighted to assist in whatever way I can. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:08:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In article <199509131621.JAA21443@callamer.com>, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I'm passing on a message that was posted on the COPYEDITING list. I'm sure >_someone_ out there has an opinion on this. :-). Please respond to Mindy, >not me or the list. >>i have a friend who needs to index a book (an >>introductory archaeology textbook) that he's >>writing. he was wondering whether the indexing tool >>that's included in standard word-processing software, such >>as microsoft word, is sufficient or whether any programs >>exist that are devoted to creating indexes that would be better. >> I'll reply privately as well, but think this is a subject that lots of would-be indexers are interested in. The short answer is NO! The indexing tool included with most word processors is next to useless for real indexing. And NO! Doing a one-time indexing job does NOT justify purchasing an expensive stand-alone indexing program which could take weeks to learn well enough to do the job. The best way to proceed (IMO, from someone who did this before she bought Macrex) is to use the word processor to create the basic index by typing in entries, in the format you want them to appear, and then taking advantage of the alphabetizing process to get them all in order. THEN you must use the search-and-replace functions to eliminate duplicate main headings. (As you can probably imagine, in order for all subentries about DOGS to appear together, in correct order, each must be preceded by the word DOGS. You're going to have to eliminate all but one of these headings in the final copy.) Save the file in ASCII, and away you go. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 19:41:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Editing/copyediting listserv In-Reply-To: <9509132328.AA14768@symnet.net> On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Patricia Buchanan wrote: > Would anyone on this indexing listserv know the address for an editing or > copyediting listserv? There's copyediting-l. To subscribe, send this message SUBSCRIBE COPYEDITING-L Your Name to this address listproc@cornell.edu The traffic on copyediting-l can be pretty heavy; sometimes there'll be over a hundred messages a day. Hope this helps. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Shake and shake / The catsup bottle. / None will come, / And then a lot'll." --Richard Armour ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 20:25:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Don Spicehandler This is the first time I've done this with a listserv. Hope I'm not doing it wrong (especially showing to whole list). Please take me off the list. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 21:19:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: copyediting list For those interested in a copyediting list, you can subscribe to Copyediting-L@Cornell.edu NAN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:24:33 +0000 Reply-To: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: Where does "and" go? (was: Uniformity in subentries) Carol Roberts said: > I don't see the advantage of it. Typically, other subentries will > begin with words you ignore in alphabetizing: of, for, in, with. If > those are going to remain at the beginning, then does it make much > difference in scanning the list of subs whether all the "and" ones > have the "and" at the end? I don't think you can use any hard and fast rule. The actual content may require a different treatment from one index to another. For example, some of the prepositions such as "in" may give a useful grouping of entries (e.g. for applications of a technique) which may be neater than using an additional level of subheading such as "applications in:". It is almost like a "facet indicator" for those familiar with the notation of classification schemes. "And" is like the ":" indicator in the UDC (Universal Decimal Classification), and that certainly has a filing order. If words used at the beginning of entries are ignored for alphabetisation, I would like to see these printed in a distinct type, lighter or smaller than the filing words. Italics can be used if there is no risk of confusion with other uses of italics in the index. Leonard Will -- Dr Leonard D Will Tel: +44 181 372 0092 Information Management Consultant Fax: +44 181 372 0094 27 Calshot Way, ENFIELD, Middlesex Email: LWill@willpowr.demon.co.uk EN2 7BQ, United Kingdom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 05:31:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fran Freiman Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action Glenda Browne asked: >Do any of you have Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover you for >possible action against negligent work? > I don't, and I have tried to get some. I have been told to get it through a professional organization to which I belong, but none offers it. I did track down an agent in the New York area who offers it, but it would be tied to that particular job (book title) and would cost more than $1,000. I did not buy the coverage (the job only paid $7,000). I hope you start something, Glenda. It'd be great to get it if it were reasonably priced and attached to the doer, not the done to. Good luck, Fran Freiman ffreiman@ix.netcom.com --------------------Reply Separator-------------------- Fran Freiman, Editor/Owner ffreiman@ix.netcom.com WordRight Editorial Cons. Svcs. (Houston, TX) >>>>>>Same Email address for Joe and Matt Freiman<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:07:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Louise Martin Subject: Re: salary survey >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >The ASI board is putting the salary survey on the agenda for the Oct. 7 >board meeting. All of the input from Index-L and AOL is extremely >helpful--indexers are making their voices heard! > I'm a former market research consultant who is now a full-time indexer. If you need help designing or analyzing the results of a salary survey, let me know. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 21:19:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Rate Survey The Editorial Freelancers Association (EFA) published a rate survey a couple of years ago. No doubt they have gone through all the questions and problems ASI is facing in doing a rate survey. They are in New York at 212-929-5400. NAN ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:06:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: salary survey In-Reply-To: <199509141400.JAA21267@zoom.bga.com> Thanks Louise, for volunteering! I know Elinor (ASI president) is "listening," and will take your offer to the board. For everyone- Have you noticed how quickly we moved from establishing a need, to organization for action? This is very much like the ASI Web committee at work, only the committee is composed of all indexers on this list! FYI, a demographer has also volunteered to help, so we may have a survey in short order. Cheers! Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Louise Martin wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >The ASI board is putting the salary survey on the agenda for the Oct. 7 > >board meeting. All of the input from Index-L and AOL is extremely > >helpful--indexers are making their voices heard! > > > I'm a former market research consultant who is now a full-time indexer. If > you need help designing or analyzing the results of a salary survey, let > me know. > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: salary survey In addition to being a member of ASI, I am also a member of the Society for Technical Communication (STC). The STC distributes an annual survey of salaries and publishes its results to its members once a year. I have a copy, if anyone is interested in more detail; it's a 5 1/2" x 8 1/2" booklet of 12 pages. I think it's very interesting and helpful to corporate employees as well as freelancers. STC can be reached at: 901 N. Stuart St., Suite 904 Arlington, VA 22203-1854 (703) 522-4114 email: stc@tmn.com Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:38:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: henderson@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action In-Reply-To: <01HV9DSS0UWI000YR5@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU> My lawyer and accountant both suggested that I have insurance. My insurance agent, State Farm, said they will write the policy at a minimual charge. I did see a reference to Fireman's Fund Insurance having such a policy for editors, copywriters, indexers. Martha ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martha V. Henderson, Ed.D. Voice: (318)357-4403 Professor and Coordinator Library Automation FAX: (318)357-4470 Northwestern State University Natchitoches, LA 71457 Henderson@alpha.nsula.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Fran Freiman wrote: > Glenda Browne asked: > > >Do any of you have Professional Indemnity Insurance to cover you for > >possible action against negligent work? > > > > I don't, and I have tried to get some. I have been told to get it through a > professional organization to which I belong, but none offers it. > > I did track down an agent in the New York area who offers it, but it would > be tied to that particular job (book title) and would cost more than $1,000. > I did not buy the coverage (the job only paid $7,000). > > I hope you start something, Glenda. It'd be great to get it if it were > reasonably priced and attached to the doer, not the done to. > > Good luck, > Fran Freiman > ffreiman@ix.netcom.com > --------------------Reply Separator-------------------- > Fran Freiman, Editor/Owner ffreiman@ix.netcom.com > WordRight Editorial Cons. Svcs. (Houston, TX) > >>>>>>Same Email address for Joe and Matt Freiman<<<<<< > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:57:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Rate Survey Thanks to Nan Badgett for the information about the Editorial Freelancer's Association rate survey. We'll get in touch with them. Elinor Lindheimer President American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:22:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Giglierano Subject: faq? I'm a new member of the list, and I'd like to know if a faq exists. Also, can anyone give me some locations of documents that would be useful to someone trying to establish a thesaurus for an online service? I know that the latter may be somewhat off the topic of the list, but I'd appreciate any help available. Thanks. Joan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:39:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: salary survey Thanks to Peg Mauer for the information about the STC salary survey--We'll check that out, too. Elinor Lindheimer President American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:48:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: faq? >> On Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:22:51 -0400, >> Joan Giglierano said: J> Can anyone give me some locations of documents that would be useful J> to someone trying to establish a thesaurus for an online service? If you're trying to create a thesaurus from a set of existing documents, check out the book "Information Retrieval" by Frakes and Baeza-Yates, ISBN 0-13-463837-9. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:57:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action In-Reply-To: <199509141501.IAA24228@callamer.com> If I were doing a lot of copyediting (which I am not, at the moment), I would be far more concerned about professional liability insurance. When editing, you ARE in a position to make substantive errors that can affect the usefulness of a book. When indexing, though, you are ostensibly using the author's own words, content, and organization to create a reference system for the text. In other words, the chances of YOU, personally, being responsible for any serious error that would reduce the value of the work is extremely slim. Frankly, for the price, I don't think liability insurance is worth it for freelancers. The worst-case scenario I can imagine in most situations is not getting paid for a job because it is unacceptable to either the publisher or the author. I doubt very much that more than one job in a million would involve actual liability. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:18:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jackson Yang Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Start-up equipment and costs I would like to request info on what equipment e.g. fax? printer? hardware an d software, etc. are needed to start free-lance indexing and the approximate cos t. Also, what are the absolute bare-bone equipments necessary as opposed to desi rable to minimize costs? Is an old computer model sufficient or do I have to pu rchase the latest model? Thanks in advance for the information. Jackson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maryann Corbett Subject: salary/rate discussion Here's more grist for the mill of the money discussion: I applaud ASI for acting quickly about a survey, but I'm nervous if it's described as a RATE survey. Some of us don't have rates because we're not freelancers. In this area, I'd guess there are many more salaried indexers than freelancers, considering the legislature, West publishing, and several computer firms. Perhaps it's been understood all along that salaried people will be included, but I'm not sure it was said, so I'm officially asking. Regards, Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:33:17 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries Richard Shrout says: >I rarely use "and" in a subheading; however, from now on, I will >put it at the end. It makes just as much sense that way and >should make the index easier for the reader to use. I think it makes a semantic difference whether you have: Dogs cats and 23, 32 or Dogs and cats 23, 32 To me the first implies that the reference discusses dogs in relation to cats (e.g. dogs make cats nervous) and the second implies that the two are discussed on an equal basis (e.g. dogs and cats compete for the owner's attention) or that dogs take precedence in the discussion (e.g. cats make dogs aggressive). I agree that in everyday use there isn't likely to be confusion, but it does provide some incentive for including the relationship in the index, e.g. Dogs irritate cats 23 irritated by cats 32 I don't think 'uniformity' per se is a valid reason for suppressing meaningful distinctions. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:33:54 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries >I rarely use "and" in a subheading; however, from now on, I will >put it at the end. It makes just as much sense that way and >should make the index easier for the reader to use. I agree. If 'and' is used, putting it at the end of the subdivision seems an ideal way to avoid the issue of whether or not prepositions should be ignored when filing subdivisions, and to give an easily browsable list of subdivisions. (It will *nearly* always solve the problem: my husband says I should read his reply to this same post before sending this to make sure we don't contradict each other!). However, when 'and' *is* used at the beginning of subdivisions, indexers have to decide whether to ignore it in filing. Indexers on INDEX-L seem to prefer to ignore it. Maybe it is because I have trained in the age of 'file as is', but I can't see that it would ever be better to ignore the preposition (unless, perhaps, the list of subdivisions is really long, and probably not even then). On the other hand, I do believe there are occasional cases where *not* ignoring the preposition results in a more helpful order. In the index to a pharmacology textbook, filing by the prepositions gives the following display, where the use of anticholinergic agents in specific diseases and disorders all file together. anticholinergic agents as premedication in acid pepsin disease in bladder dysfunction in eye disorders in parkinsonism geriatric use poisoning by On the other hand, ignoring prepositions in the example below does not give a helpful order. I don't think the filing order from 'e' to 't' to 'v' is apparent to the index user: sodium chloride in electolyte imbalances toxicity in volume depletion Regards, Glenda. . P.S. I have just been reading Sonsie's reply to my earlier post called Indexing Decisions, and it struck me that here is another example where I think that filing by the 'little words' can group subdivisions which are related, presumably therefore making it easier for an index user to find them. In the following example prepositions are not ignored, and the three subdivisions which indicate that smoking prevalence is discussed according to country of birth, occ level and educ level are grouped. Filing by 'by' groups these headings as if there was an invisible broader term 'by specific group'. smoking prevalence 11 >> adults 11-12, 11t-12t >> and advertising 292 >> and anti-smoking campaigns 217-218 >> and workplace bans 124 >> by country of birth 16, 17t >> by educational level 15-16, 16t >> by occupational level 14-15, 15t >> children 13-14, 13t-14t >> gender differences 311-315, 311t-316t >> young adults 14, 14t >> younger people 175, 180-181 Sorry this is such a long post. Feeling in the minority must make me verbose. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: salary/rate discussion Maryann Corbett pointed out that salaried indexers should be included in any rate survey, and so they should, and so they shall. This is indeed reminding me of the Web Site procedure last spring. We're in the preliminary stages now, and at some point soon we will form an official committee, and we will get results--this is truly a remarkable method of communication! Elinor Lindheimer President American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 18:40:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Green Subject: Final CFP: ISKO4--Knowledge Organization and Change This is being posted to several lists. Please excuse any duplication. Submissions with email addresses will be acknowledged via email. *********************************************************************** International Society for Knowledge Organization Fourth International Conference: July 15-18, 1996, Washington, DC CALL FOR PAPERS Knowledge organization in the coming century will differ markedly from that of this past century. Continued information and document growth, expansion and change in user needs and information-seeking behaviors, and changes in technological, political, economic, educational, and social environments mandate increased development and improvement in knowledge organization tools, techniques, schemes, and systems. In light of the challenges and promises of this situation, the International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will hold its 4th International Conference (ISKO 4), sponsored by the Library of Congress, and in cooperation with OCLC Forest Press, the Classification Research Special Interest Group of the American Society for Information Science (ASIS SIG/CR) and the College of Library and Information Services (CLIS) of the University of Maryland, at the Library of Congress in Washington, DC, USA, July 15-18, 1996 to address the theme: Knowledge Organization and Change Papers and panels addressing Knowledge Organization and Change from any of the following interlocking perspectives are invited: From an Environmental Perspective: the impact of ongoing changes in technological, political, economic, educational, and social environments on how knowledge is produced, organized, and used From an Information/Knowledge Perspective: the challenges created by changing views of knowledge (e.g., theories of knowledge, stores of knowledge) across time, cultures, languages, disciplines, users, and uses From a Document Perspective: new methods of creating and presenting documents (e.g., collaborative documents, hypertext, multimedia); changes in text composition, genres, and discourse; dynamic documents; managing document versions, variants, and views From a User Perspective: expansion of and change in user needs and user information-seeking behaviors; the effect of user interface design on users' abilities to access and assimilate information; the effect of discourse and interpretive communities, disciplinary/interdisciplinary communication, and network communications on users' conceptions of knowledge From a Knowledge Organization Systems Perspective: new developments in knowledge organization tools, techniques, schemes, and systems; natural language processing and expert systems; response of knowledge organization theory and practice to change in other arenas; management of change in knowledge organization schemes and systems The conference will also celebrate the 120th anniversary of the Dewey Decimal Classification, and papers addressing the conference theme with respect to DDC are especially welcome. Prospective speakers or panels are asked to submit extended abstracts of 500-1000 words by September 30, 1995 to Rebecca Green, Program Chair (see contact information below; electronic submissions welcome--please mention ISKO in subject line). An international program committee will review the papers, and authors will be notified of acceptance decisions by January 31, 1996. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be March 31, 1996. Conference chair: Sarah Thomas, Director of Cataloging, Collections Services Library of Congress, LM 642 (COLL/O) Washington, DC 20540-4300, USA phone: +1 202 707-5333; fax: +1 202 707-6269 internet: stho@loc.gov Program chair: Rebecca Green College of Library and Information Services Hornbake Bldg. (So. Wing), Rm. 4105 University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742-4345, USA phone: +1 301 405-2050; fax: +1 301 314-9145 internet: rgreen@umd5.umd.edu Local arrangements chair: Jolande Goldberg Cataloging Policy and Support Office Library of Congress, LM 556 (COLL/CPSO) Washington, DC 20540-4305, USA phone: +1 202 707-4386; fax: +1 202 707-6629 internet: goldberg@mail.loc.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:40:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action In-Reply-To: <9509150026.AA23294@symnet.net> I completely agree with Sonsie Conroy. I've never had professional indemnity insurance, and I don't think it's at all necessary. Are we worrying too much about tempests in teapots? I think so. Indexers' rates are, I think, a whole lot more important. Being assertive and proud freelancers is important. The decline in quality within the publishing industry is deeply troubling. I wish we could find a way to halt *that*. Hazel the Curmudgeonly Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Shake and shake / The catsup bottle. / None will come, / And then a lot'll." --Richard Armour ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:21:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509142134.OAA20213@callamer.com> You MUST have at least a 286 with a hard drive that will hold your indexing program, the resultant index files, plus whatever other programs you may need (word processing comes to mind)...about the oldest technology you can find even in used computers. So you're not going to have to spend much for the basics. You will also need a decent printer, though most companies want the index on disk. You'll still want and need to make paper copies for ease of reading and checking yourself. And doubtless you'll have the occasional client who wants an index the old-fashioned way--on paper. I am most familiar with Cindex and Macrex as indexing programs. I vastly prefer Macrex; others on the list will have other preferences and knowledge of other programs. Either one of these will cost you about $500, and will require a fairly steep learning curve. Don't expect to produce a usable index with either one of them right away. Until you can afford a true stand-alone indexing program, you can still use index cards...probably the best way to learn the business, anyway. Use any word processing program that can output in ASCII to type your final work, copy it to disk, and you've produced a new-fangled index in an old-fashioned way. Good luck. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 21:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Jackson Yang asked: > I would like to request info on what equipment e.g. fax? printer? hardware an >d software, etc. are needed to start free-lance indexing and the approximate cos >t. > Also, what are the absolute bare-bone equipments necessary as opposed to desi >rable to minimize costs? Is an old computer model sufficient or do I have to pu >rchase the latest model? > Thanks in advance for the information. >Jackson > Warning: this post is fairly long and intended for beginning indexers. It contains my slightly unorthodox views on equipment needs and costs. Established indexers may not want to waste their time. Jackson: One of my pet peeves is the oft-quoted figure of $ 5-10,000 for home-business start-up costs that you often read in magazines: (like for example, Money Magazine!), Entrepreneur, and other "start your own business" magazines. This includes the latest computer, fax, etc. that you are supposed to need. There are huge industries appealing to people's desires to work for themselves, like for example Apple and Microsoft, and they have a definite agenda to push: buy the right technology, i.e., the right computer and the right software, and happiness will follow. Horse feathers!!! Being in business is a state of mind, not a set of accoutrements. As an illustration consider this. Last year I self-published my first book, designed the ad campaign myself, and let Kinkos be my publishing company. I used one of the golden rules of starting a business: I started small. I used the first orders from my magazine ad to pay for my first Kinkos printing. That's why many ads say wait 4-6 weeks for delivery! By the end of 95 I'll reach the 1000 sales level and now have two distributors, and I keep between 45-75% of the $ 9.95 sale price myself. You *can* start a business on a shoestring: if I can, anyone can. If you don't know about the American Society of Indexers or the USDA indexing course, there are lots of people on Index-l who could get you steered in the right direction, or check the ASI home page. (Do a Webcrawler or Yahoo on "Indexing" and you'll be there in 2 shakes). I'll just deal with the issue of what you need to get up and running once you're ready to launch "Jackson Indexing". I'll point this out now because if I don't I'll surely get flamed: you can start an indexing business using index cards and/or a word processing program. You don't *absolutely* have to have either a computer or indexing software. An ASI member in NYC has produced a detailed document explaining how to use WordPerfect for indexing, and I confess my very first professional indexing job was done in WordPerfect! Doing your first one or two paying jobs this way certainly won't hurt you. Now that that's out of the way let's get on to reality: I would use a figure of $ 1000-1,500 as a practicable minimum startup cost to start a freelance indexing business. And you don't necessarily need this all in one chunk. This includes: 1)$ 300 for the USDA course 2) $ 500 for Cindex or Macrex 3) $ 250 for a used 286 machine consisting of 1 meg ram, 40 meg HD, VGA monitor and tons of software (this is the current "asking price" for this machine in the used computer market. Truth is 2 pictures of U.S. Grant will get many such machines. Check the USENET groups or your local "Swapper" for used computers) 4) $ 250 for business or Rolodex cards or some other professional-looking form of advertizing to enclose with your letters soliciting freelance work from publishers (either cold or following up phone calls) 5) a few hundred $ for general miscellaneous office supplies, such as letterhead (which I still don't have) or a good spree at Office Depot or Staples, which can go a long way towards making you feel like you're in business. Notice that the bulk of the money is going for good training and good software. Cindex or Macrex will pay you back a million-fold in efficiency, not to mention capabilities of handling real-world indexing problems like large sections of a book being repaginated right as you're finishing the index. With index cards: lots of work. With Cindex or Macrex: NO PROBLEM. Should you need to fax something, and this isn't likely at first, even your corner deli now routinely has a fax machine you can use for a few bucks a fax. Kinkos also has fax machines. This is *only* the bare equipment costs and doesn't cover money you may need for health insurance, living expenses until you're up and running, etc. That's a whole different issue. ASI has several informative booklets such as the classic "Freelancers on Indexing" that can help you along those lines. As I see it, this is the basic setup. The rest is up to you and your ability to sell yourself. Since you're on Index-l you probably already have a computer more than sufficient for indexing. Truth is, this is not a lot of money for starting a real business: in fact it barely merits the term "peanuts". If this seems like a lot to you now, I have to say at this point that you may not have the financial and emotional savvy to make it as a self-employed person. In other words, I view accumulating this kind of sum as sort of the absolute minimum test of the kind of skills you will need to make it as a freelancer. If this sounds harsh, better to hear it now than after you've quit your day job. Believe me, once you really get going you will face challenges the likes of which you couldn't imagine in your wildest dreams today. Hopefully, you're saying "Wow, this sure beats the $ 10,000 figure!" Peace and good luck; Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:03:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: indexing choices Glenda wrote: > >I would like to know if there are ways of speeding up indexing without >compromising quality. I often think that if I had a good idea of what was in >the whole book that I would spend less time typing in entries that I later >remove, but I find that in practice this doesn't work. Ah, the search for the Holy Grail of freelance indexing. ;-D I've had the same thought as you, with the same negative results. I think part of it is that, no matter how closely we read the book before actually making entries, there is always the fear that if you omit an entry, you'll regret it later. A lot of my initial >work may be changed or deleted during editing, but that initial work has >still contributed to the content and 'shape' of the index in some way. Indeed. I actually find myself incorporating little notes to myself in entries (by making them overly verbose on the first pass) so that I can decide in the editing stage whether to cut them, restructure the index, do more cross-referencing, etc. I also find myself indexing in much more depth in the first few chapters vs. later in the book to develop the structure. The chaff gets weeded out in editing (ergo the "notes" to myself). Sometimes it feels more like a flailing around until the index settles into its rhythm and texture. > >I also find that being interested in the work I am indexing can make the >work take longer, as I really want to understand everything. As I usually >only accept work which I think will be interesting, I suspect that this >contributes to the time I take as well. > >Glenda. > I've found *not* being interested in a book takes longer. I've indexed books that were written on such a low level (despite their sounding interesting at first) that I've found myself daydreaming at the keyboard. And I've found that it takes longer when, in the interest of simplicity, that the terminology is so imprecise that it takes forever to craft a proper entry. Drivel takes a long time to index too because as one wades through it, one is wondering what needs to be indexed here. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 22:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action I completely agree with Sonsie Conroy and Hazel (the Curmudgeonly) Blumberg-McKee. If you're worried about professional indemnity/legal action, incorporate. That's what incorporating is for, if I'm not mistaken. While I do believe in some types of insurance, like for health and autos, and I'm working on getting disability (Mass Mutual has a great policy!), I believe that in other areas of life the presence of insurance just invites lawyers to come after you. This is not my original idea; it's a pretty well-documented fact in the real.world. Let's worry about important things like getting us more respect and money!!! Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 21:30:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) In-Reply-To: <199509150205.VAA07073@zoom.bga.com> Well, Glenda and Lynn, let me add a thought or two to this. (I'll be snipping liberally to save >s) On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > Glenda wrote: > > > >I would like to know if there are ways of speeding up indexing without > >compromising quality. Lynn: > no matter how closely we read the book before actually > making entries, there is always the fear that if you omit an entry, > you'll regret it later. Me: Cross-eyed in the wee hours, looking for that reference you **know** you read sometime recently. Glenda: > A lot of my initial > >work may be changed or deleted during editing, but that initial work > has > >still contributed to the content and 'shape' of the index in some way. Lynn: > Indeed. I actually find myself incorporating little notes to myself in > entries (by making them overly verbose on the first pass) so that I can > decide in the editing stage whether to cut them, restructure the index, > do more cross-referencing, etc. Me: That's much easier than the go-back-and-look-it-up method of subdividing entries! Thanks. Lynn: I also find myself indexing in much > more depth in the first few chapters vs. later in the book to develop > the structure. The chaff gets weeded out in editing (ergo the "notes" > to myself). Sometimes it feels more like a flailing around until the > index settles into its rhythm and texture. Me: Shape, rhythm, and texture are all words I'd use, too. There's something about making the material part of my neurosystem that lets me use that cook's intuition: knead until it feels right. I can't know what feels right until I know how the components feel separately. > >I also find that being interested in the work I am indexing can make > the work take longer, as I really want to understand everything. > >Glenda. Lynn: > And I've found that it takes longer when, in the interest of > simplicity, that the terminology is so imprecise that it takes forever > to craft a proper entry. Drivel takes a long time to index too because > as one wades through it, one is wondering what needs to be indexed > here. ;-D Me: Amen. Even when the book is interesting, some things are so omnipresent that I have difficulty corralling them. In my current project (Andean testimonial narratives of two individuals) violence among the people in the narratives is so common that the whole text could be covered by the entry (sort it yourself- it's late): violence toward children toward women among women among men toward Andean peoples between classes between races and so on. Every page illustrates some aspect of violence in Peruvian society. But the book is not (intended to be) about violence. Anyway, Thanks Glenda and Lynn for those thoughts. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 19:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Jackson wrote: > > I would like to request info on what equipment e.g. fax? printer? hardware an >d software, etc. are needed to start free-lance indexing and the approximate cos >t. > Also, what are the absolute bare-bone equipments necessary as opposed to desi >rable to minimize costs? Is an old computer model sufficient or do I have to pu >rchase the latest model? > Thanks in advance for the information. >Jackson > Jackson, Some of this depends upon what you plan to do in your indexing business. If you plan to work mainly with traditional book publishers, you can get away with an older computer, dedicated indexing software, word processing software (preferably something that will read in .RTF files from your indexing software), an inexpensive bubble-jet printer, and a fax/modem. BTW, by "old", I hope you're not meaning anything older than a 386. Even though the major dedicated indexing programs run in DOS, they'll do so more comfortably in extended memory. If you're planning on using Windows for anything, you'll need at least 8 Meg of RAM unless you don't mind looking at the hourglass all day. Also, while you can start out with an old system, eventually you'll become so frustrated with it that you have to move up. Hardware obscelesces with dizzying speed these days. Also, by "old", I hope you're not talking a 9-pin dot matrix printer. You need letter-quality printing, not only for delivering indexes, but for marketing and other correspondence if you want to present a professional image. If you're planning to work for high-tech companies, you may find yourself needing heftier hardware. Some of my clients want their indexes delivered in FrameMaker, for example. My previously comfortable 486-66 with 8 Meg of RAM and a 340Meg hard drive became woefully insufficient. The 15-inch monitor suddenly became too small. So now, I'm running with 24Meg of RAM, plan to order a 1.2Gig hard drive for the 486, and I just ordered a Pentium today with a 17-inch monitor, a 1.2Gig drive, 28.8K modem, etc. When you have clients that want to send you 60Megs in files (!), that want you to FTP files, etc., horsepower becomes extremely important. I'll try running it in the 16Meg of RAM it comes with, but I may have to install more. In other words, responding to client needs in the past year have forced me to shell out about $4600 in additional hardware and software. (The second computer is so that the older one can be used by an assistant.) Many indexers don't have such awesome hardware requirements, but it can happen with a particular client mix. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 22:43:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: ASI Home page Anyone who hasn't already should check out the American Society of Indexers home page. It's very well done and is a great place for us to send publishers or authors with questions. For example check the FAQs for the response to the question (something like): Is a computer-generated index really an index? I love it!! Tonight in a classic time-wasting move I was responding to an Index-l question about start-up costs and could'nt remember the cost of the USDA indexing course. I hopped on Netscape, used a bookmark to surf to the ASI page, and had the answer in about 2 minutes. The Web, the ASI home page, and Index-l are just *way* too cool. It's at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ (that's lib n as in "Netscape" h) (*not* ri) Oh, incidently, I'm not really post.storming, I'm just really busy and I love to procrastinate! Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 23:01:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs A brief followup to my reply to Jackson Yang about startup equipment costs. I quoted ~$ 250 for a used 286 system. I failed to mention it, but believe it or not this price usually gets you a dot matrix printer as part of the deal too. Isn't the march of technology great! A printer is of course a near-necessity although if you have friends you could get by a while without one. I use an HP Deskjet which I love almost as much as my job. These can be purchased brand new for < $ 300 for the simplest model, and used for $ 75-100. Laser printers are now getting ridiculously cheap, so before too long I'll probably get one and give my ex the DeskJet for the kids. Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:32:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Re: indexing choices >Glenda wrote: >> >>I would like to know if there are ways of speeding up indexing without >>compromising quality.. > >Lynn Moncrief wrote >I also find myself indexing in much >more depth in the first few chapters vs. later in the book to develop >the structure. The chaff gets weeded out in editing (ergo the "notes" >to myself). Sometimes it feels more like a flailing around until the >index settles into its rhythm and texture. I always find that it is better to "over-index" initially until I have the feel for the index. A flow develops once one is well into the book. Time spent being slower at the beginning is well recompensed later when one is indexing much more quickly. For me, the slower initial indexing is part of the total process. And I can never index something in which I am not interested. As I am a freelancer with another job (at present), I can afford to be selective. Joan ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen Phone: 06 2492994 R.G. Menzies Library Building Fax: 06 2490058 Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 20:33:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Money Magazine article You wrote: > >In article <199509131424.HAA30821@callamer.com>, someone (sorry!) wrote: > >>>From the sources available to me, I gather that indexers charge between >>$2.50 to $5.00 per page depending on some variables. I personally, cannot >>work for less than to $3.00 per page (I index scholarly books in a foreign >>language and do not get many assignments), but, is this fair or too low? >>How do I know I am not hurting the profession? Does anybody charge $5.00, >>and if so, in what circunstances? I can't work very often for under $3.00/page either! :-) The $2.50/page is paid by many scholarly presses, but unless you can crank 15-20 pp/hr on their books, I don't find it at all livable or even fair recompense for the effort expended. If the expectation was that the indexer just create entries from permutations of the headings in the book, then maybe. But they want real indexes for that price! So, even though I have one $2.50/page client, it wasn't due to marketing, and I'm hoping to be able to raise my rates with them so that I don't feel as if I'm hemorrhaging $$ on their projects, despite the fact that they're fascinating. I do think that $2.50/page hurts the profession--mea culpa. :-D IMHO, $3/page is low for indexing in a foreign language. After all, that's a rather specialized expertise for which you don't have a lot of competition. (Come to think of it, there aren't that many clients in that field either unless you go to the translation houses, maybe.) To be honest, I'd go for at least $4-5/page if someone asked me to index a book in one of my foreign languages. I charge at least $5/page if I have to embed index entries in word processing or desktop publishing documents. After all, I must first do the index in Macrex to get a decent quality index, then embed from a page-order sort. Sometimes with all the work involved, I average minimum wage. ;-D One client ended up paying me $8.75/page. But that was because, first they had their writers index the book. Then they asked me to clean up the index. Aiiish! For the major surgery, I charged $3.75/page. They then gave the book to the writers to embed index markers into it in FrameMaker from my page-order sort. The writers ran for cover--rightly so. They then gave it back to me for total reindexing and embedding since I only had a day to do the major surgery in one horrendous all-nighter. (They knew that this definitely wasn't one of my very best indexes, given the one-day turnaround they gave me and the fact that they told me *not* to jettison the original entries done by the project manager--not an indexer.) I charged an additional $5/page for all of that in another all-nighter in which I threw out all of the original entries, now with their full consent. They paid all of that, then Fedexed me a big tin of Mrs. Fields chocolate chip cookies as an additional thank you. Yeah, I'll work for food too. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs