From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.eduFri Aug 25 11:00:37 1995 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:55:28 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9507D" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:23:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Indexing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- For those of you who requested the compilation of my results on indexing software, you might be interested to know that the American Society of Indexers publishes a fine "Guide to Indexing Software" by Linda K. Fetters. It contains complete evaluations of six indexing packages, including CINDEX and MACXREX. It's available at a cost of $20 for those not ASI members. (postage is free within the US). You can inquire about the publication by calling ASI at 512-749-4052. I found the publication of great help in narrowing my choices for investigation. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:23:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steve Harter Subject: Index-spamming?? (fwd) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm normally a lurker on this list--but thought this would be of interest. Now _this_ is a deeply indexed document! Steve Stephen P. Harter, Sch. of Library and Information Science Indiana University Voice: (812) 855-5113 Bloomington, IN 47405 Fax: (812) 855-6166 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 10:30:08 -0600 From: NETTRAIN Moderator To: Multiple recipients of list NETTRAIN Subject: Index-spamming?? ******************** Forwarded by NETTRAIN moderator ******************** Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:27:12 -0400 From: Jean Armour Polly News from another outrider on the Internet frontier. I was minding my own business doing a Lycos search on "health and equipment" and came across the following list of descriptors. It was too alluring to ignore. So I went to the site, which is at http://www.covesoft.com/crcabney/manuals.html Turns out it's a Face Muscle Enhancement Exercise Beauty Manual. $24.95 Ames, Iowa. Purportedly used by JFK. At least 90% of the page (which goes on, and on, and on) are descriptors, some of which are below. The page advises :The following are used for indexing purposes only, readers should ignore. Not a bad idea, put every descriptor you can imagine in your HTML so the "content indexes" can pick it up. There have been over 15,000 accesses of the page since January, 585 today. Must be working. Wonder if it translates to sales. The new word I coined for this type of thing is "annotainted". Best regards JP descriptors: immunodefeciency acquired malignant back pain relief marijuana cocaine multimedia multimedia multimedia theater sports sports supermodels supermodels magazines companies companies companies politics politics political health health health heart heartattackes prevention satellite maps weather weather weather weather wheat surgery surgery clinton clinton limbaugh elections elections elections sex sex women sex nude nude nude optical contact lens glasses numismatic god religion dreams subscription mailing hotels motels jesus bible critics nasdaq index fortune 500 apex canada australia siskel ebert eastwood newsgroups soviet union coalition work employment time quality people honda chevrolet airlines performance tires political policy oklahoma veterans memmorial media arts batman long distance mouse christian aarp satellite wall street journal popular cool hot unusual loans credit agencies nixon white house las vegas gambling juvenile investing networks gardening associations presidents government publishing authors criminals mozilla mosaic browser winsock netscape editors register database account anatomy mailing post office list aids disease architecture vitamins breakthrough masturbation naked real estate organizations restaurants malaysia phillipines china diversity home page articles current interest provider anonymous identification malls mall store shopping mall malls store shopping offering storefronts classifieds space rent photo sound video tours presentation seminars commericial compuserve prodigy catalogs info email variety cooking goods magic tricks secrets juggling items itemize rem awards soft drinks pepsi coca-cola smoking cigars drinking cigarettes digital apple radio equipment farming washington cute environment toshiba religion regional civil revolutionary newspapers fishing travel love panasonic retirement letterman leno letterman beer television party cinema real pets estate erotic cars autos planes vacation erotica health time newsweek pets senate congress dole green day classical music adventure phonebook yahoo yellow pages bargains phone phone book phonebook books magazines address addresses models wholesale retail stocks bonds money investments sale retirement letterman leno television party cinema real estate erotic cars autos planes vacation erotica health time newsweek senate congress dole green day classical music adventure phonebook yellow pages bargains addresses models wholesale retail stocks bonds money investments sale sales exhibition art computers news education government lawyers simpson cartoons jokes birthdays information names guns roses women ideas running fitness vitamins recreation literature poetry artists japan virtual libraries search da clod webcrawler subject browers cyberspace malls html malls shopping shops markets stockmarket wallstreet journal nasdaq html broker stockbroker fitness sexuality feminism femisnim movements html america online radio actors companies rock rapers pop animals ware html sales exhibition art computers news education government lawyers simpson cartoons jokes birthdays information names guns roses women ideas powell science popular society culture multimedia body processor senior multimedia citizens comtemporary html http documentation support groups automobiles science popular society culture multimedia body processor senior citizens comtemporary html http documentation support groups automobiles chemistry agriculture agronomy aviation airplanes countries beer page links robots advertising pornography coins stamps insects science people self improvement designs kids children logos compact discs bands vietnam videos asia financial aid grants committees institutions trading wall street nikei index josh's sanctum yen dollar stock market form found tired glamorous average attractive cards sharp fractals confidence appearance information defined perfect effects skin creams expensive lotions magic cheap instruments guitar rock organs donor developed techniques methods scientific instructions toned muscular training weights youthful strengthen blood flow skin regimen relative friends associates input software alpha alpha applications Jordan jordan superstars jackson jackson wholesale retail whitehouse white house sex whitehouse washington whitehouse white house washington cable dogs cats animals remote ford trucks basketball hunting fishing beer hillary william pressure flood donating donations teeth lifting stress steroids canada mexico australia australia telephone sony sony corporations long distance carrier discounts barber hair styles balding cures forests author rain hail snow stress anxiety medical wais servers doctors internet death emacs aids cancer research engineering ethernet worm shopping ethernet interface limbaugh clinton gore clinton bush reagan faces pretty galaxy christmas easter independence july franklin roosevelt tin tin kermit homepage html clothing fashion archives network windows gates CBS surgery russia travel boats fishing puerto rico bullion hispanic german dutch surgery concerts politics galaxy compuserve images online catalogs information self improvement designs kids children logos compact discs bands html information vietnam videos asia financial aid grants committees news institutions edu search new new new new new new new new sex new sex news trading wall street nikei index josh's sanctum yen dollar stock market surveys index athletics books magazines restaurants playboy penthouse whitehouse clinton Gore music videos stereo food gingrich jefferson cats dogs horses gold resume united states careers vacations elderly erotic retirement letterman leno television party cinema real estate erotic cars autos planes vacation erotica health time newsweek senate congress dole green day classical music adventure phonebook yellow pages bargains addresses models wholesale retail stocks bonds money investments sale sales exhibition art computers news education government lawyers simpson volcano floods flood lists testament kings queens royality greek roman myth unidentified trek nude models egypt indians graduate enrollment projections fires explosion aircraft railroad fuel ethanol consumption nuclear radioactive radon petroleum powere plants crude supply demand comparing comparisons gasoline heating cooling oil cardiac heart kidneys liver reeves mantle liver poisoning blood pressure heart attackes rape psychology psychiatrist psychiatry tumors brain notable symphony news libraries glossary museums america winners losers artists broadway conan mountains passwords hacking thirtysomething discoveries dallas lakes weather radar satellite personals dating bbs bulletin board playboy homosexuality homosexual gay lesbian alcohol homepage beer jpg jpeg icons graphics coupons slip clinton greenhouse women woman cunt surveys index athletics books magazines restaurants playboy penthouse whitehouse clinton gore usa usa usa music videos stereo food gingrich jefferson cats dogs horses gold resume united states careers vacations elderly whitehouse white house 1995 1995 1996 1996 2000 2000 gateway search search park europe parks europe a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x w z a a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y za b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z a b c d e f g h i j yellow pages bargains phone phone book phonebook books magazines address addresses models wholesale retail stocks bonds money investments sale sales exhibition art computers news education government lawyers simpson cartoons jokes birthdays information names guns roses women ideas science popular society culture multimedia body processor senior multimedia citizens comtemporary html http documentation support groups automobiles etc etc etc ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:23:49 ECT Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Is there anyone ELSE out there in Europe? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The (British) Society of Indexers is keen to get in touch with other indexers - and groups of indexers (formal or informal) - in other parts of Europe. We heard a rumour some years ago that an Italian group had met somewhere on a railway station (or was it in a train?) some years ago, but we haven't heard anything since... The recent discussion on the difficulty of identifying the Spanish name for indexers indicates that we may find some problems, but we should love to be proved wrong! Drusilla (on behalf of the SI council) P.S. I tried to send this before, but I don't think it got through. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:24:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Hutchins Subject: Q- Text Retrieval XCMDs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm part of a team that has been working for several years developing a prototyp e in SuperCard to demonstrate the capabilities of hypermedia techniques for supp orting access to technical reference manuals. One of the access paradigms that our system offers is Text Retrieval (just simpl e Boolean search, with wildcards, proximity, etc.). We get that functionality b y incorporating a set of XCMDs from Knowledge Set Corp. (called SuperIndexer + S uperKRS). We are looking either to buy several licenses to the K'Set product (even though it is now no longer on the market) or to replace its functionality with another product. We would very much appreciate any information either about the availab ility of licenses to the K'Set product or about other products (on the market, h opefully!) that provide similar functionality with an XCMD interface. -- Michael Hutchins pmh@draper.com Subject: Time: Date: Q: Text Retrieval XCMDs 14:30 7/14/95 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:25:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DLWITT@alex.stkate.edu Subject: Re: How do you estimate... (Part II) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I've been reading with interest the discussion of fees. It seems to me time that ASI did another survey, either by chapter or at the annual conference, or through the ASI newsletter or all 3, to find out about current trends in per page, per line, and hourly charges. What do you say? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:25:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Re[2]: How do you estimat... In-Reply-To: <9507132225.AA23458@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here, here!! I think it's also up to us moonlighting part-timers to make it clear to clients that we will NOT accept a lower rate of pay simply because it's a second income (in addition to a paid job). Perhaps other moonlighters have different opinions and are working for pin money. But IMHO, the fact that I index in addition to a full-time job means that I should be earning OVERTIME (like time and a half!) rather than a lower rate of pay! (Just kidding, folks!) But I certainly will not accept less than I feel the job is worth to work 60-hour weeks on a routine basis. And I also don't agree with charging less than the going rate when one lives in a low-rent district. The work is the same, regardless of where one does it. I'm just back from vacation, and thus am getting into the rate discussion late. I will quote an hourly rate (typically $25/hr) without seeing the material in advance. But if they want a "not-to-exceed" quote, or per-entry or per-page rates, then I always require a representative sample and do a test index. I just recently started quoting per-entry rates, and actually prefer that method for books now that I've gotten used to it. (I use the Cindex entry count in billing.) However, for journal indexes, I vastly prefer using an hourly rate (which is never capped due to the variability of the issues). Whatever billing method I use, I always let the client know that it's based on a $25/hr. average. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Thu, 13 Jul 1995 JPerlman@aol.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Christine Jacob's and Elinor Lindheimer's posts were right to the point, > folks. It's up to us to educate the business community as to why they should > pay us better, more professional rates for being in the business of doing the > difficult intellectual work of creating their indexes. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:26:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: workshop/conference lures ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello again, indexers: This is a follow-up to my 2-day workshop question. [BTW, 5 of 6 responses thought it was a good idea.] Now, I'd like to know if any of you have ever attended a chapter meeting in other than your local or "official" chapter. Please include any associations you belong to (SLA, ALA, STC) in addition to ASI when answering. And for all of you, what would it take to lure you beyond your local area? Specific speakers? Hands-on? other? Should programs be split 50-50 between talks for beginners and presentations for experienced indexers? Are there any conference elements that would keep you from coming? More than 3-4 hours travel (car-air) for a 2-day conference? Cost of registration? I see that I have nearly endless questions, so I'll stop here. My motivation for all this is partly my responsibility for programs for my chapter, and partly (the larger part) is I see cross-discipline conferences as a way to educate other professionals about indexing and to raise our visibility. I'd like to see conferences that have something of interest to some of the organizations I mentioned above. I'm looking forward to hearing from you all, even you lurkers! (Don't forget that lurkers can maintain their status by e-mailing directly to my address below._ Au Revoir, Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:26:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: Aust. Soc. of Indexers IP address ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- If you are having trouble reaching our Web page because of timing out on your Domain Name Server, use: http://203.2.228.19/~aussi I have had feedback that this works very well. I often have trouble with USA or European links and usually reload a Web page several times on Netscape until the DNS catches up. Whatever the gobbledegook, just try the numbers instead of the domain or name. If the Guest Book doesn't respond, use the email button at the bottom of the page. Do others have this problem with overused services freezing the system up? Any solutions would be welcome. It happened when the University of Alberta counter was taken offline because of overuse. Local Australian counters and guest book facilities would be welcome. Zeta doesn't have CGI running. Cheers Dwight ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster Australian Society of Indexers: admin address: GPO Box 1251, Melbourne Vic Australia 3001 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 13:26:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Since a number of you have asked for this, I thought it might be of interest to others. Apologies to those who have already received this information. My query about indexing software received a total of eight responses. Seven users preferred CINDEX, one preferred MACREX. Overall, CINDEX received an average score of 4.6 out of 5. Details of responses and comments follow. CINDEX users: "I started with MACREX and ended with CINDEX. . .MACREX is complicated to learn, has too many conflicting . . . and confusing menus. CINDEX is far superior to MACREX in editing capabilities." "CINDEX for its power, although learning the commands gets to be a bear . . . I needed an indexing software that could be flexible and fast . . . I looked at MACREX and it looked like it could do the job, but the need to go through menus to generate the index was offputting." "5 for indexing features, 6! for reliability and 3 for general ease of use and design . . . support is excellent. Like many DOS programs, it is command and function-key intensive and requires a steep learning curve." Likes: sorting, duplicating, cross-posting, global editing with pattern matching. Dislikes: no macro facility. "Commands are hard to remember, interface is non-intuitive." "It is rich with features. so many I am still finding them. It is still a DOS program in a GUI world . . . I am pleased with CINDEX and satisfied that I made a good decision." Likes: easy formatting. I love the abbreviate function. Dislikes: to open or save a file, you have to retype the filename. You can't just save the current file, or open the last one you used. It would save a few keystrokes. "After looking at the demos, it was no contest. MACREX seemed clunky compared to CINDEX." MACREX user "I use MACREX and find it does everything I need and more. I have done indexes with 10,000 entries and kept them on my system while I worked on a 5,000 entry index. The ability to keep style sheets on file and to prepare all sorts of text files for clients is wonderful." Hope this helps. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:19:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Indexing careers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In case you haven't seen it, "Book indexer" is featured as one of the careers for home businesses in the August 95 issue of Money Magazine: "Start a business at home with a personal computer and one of these good ideas" (p. 31-32). ASI and the USDA indexing course both get plugs. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:19:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Comeau Subject: Adding page numbers to an index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, folks. We might have an unusual indexing project, and I'm trying to find out more information so that we can present it to the author. The project is a book on Swedish literature, and it will be a large tome (we're guessing around 700 pages). The author has already created a draft index--all the entries, subentries, and cross-references, but no locators of any kind--and is not sure he wants to enter the page numbers when proofs are available. Most of the entries are proper names of people and works, and because of the nature of the work, additional subentries and cross-references on the proper names are very unlikely; also, because the work is trying to be comprehensive, we'd be somewhat reluctant to delete entries for what might normally be "passing" references. Thus, little analysis would be required on the proper-name entries; for those entries, the job of entering page numbers would mostly be mechanical. Here are our questions: 1. Can Cindex or Macrex import a WordPerfect 5.1 file as the basis for an index? If so, would that assist in any way in the process of entering page numbers? 2. Given that we'd expect little or no manipulation of proper-name entries, what percentage of the normal rate would an indexer expect if the author were willing to handle all conceptual entries? What percentage would an indexer expect if the author provided MS page numbers for the conceptual entries, to be converted proof page numbers? Any thoughts? Thanks, Jennifer L. Comeau Project Editor University of Nebraska Press jcomeau@unlinfo.unl.edu (402) 472-7703 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: New uses for Word and Macrex in indexing journal articles ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- My partner and I were recently called on to index a large number of journal articles. In the process I discovered a couple of novel uses for Word for Windows and Macrex that readers of this group might be interested in. The assignment was to look at each of 1000 journal articles and assign it several descriptive words or phrases - for instance, 'Oceanographic modelling', 'Eschericia coli', or 'Temperature responses (Plants)'. These descriptors were then typed into a Word document. For consistency, the descriptors used should be, wherever possible, taken from a thesaurus of descriptors. Although the thesaurus itself was not on-line, it was possible to get a text file containing an alphabetical list of all the descriptors that had been used in the past (about 12,000 of them), and this matched the thesaurus fairly closely. In order to reduce the use of errors, it occurred to me that the file of descriptors could be used as a Word dictionary. Then when I did a spelling check on the completed document, any new or incorrectly spelt terms would be flagged as 'errors' and could be corrected as necessary. I discovered that Word for Windows (Version 6) allows any text file to be used as a custom dictionary just by saving it in the right directory and giving it the extension .DIC, so I promptly did this with the file of descriptors. I discovered, however, that when Word uses a dictionary file like this, it only reads the *first* word in each line. So when I did a spelling check on my document, if I had written: Haemonchus contortus -- (which is in the descriptor text file) the 'Haemonchus' would pass as correct, but the 'contortus' would be flagged as an error because Word would ignore the word 'contortus' in the dictionary file. So I had to open the dictionary file for editing, and turn it into a one-word-per-line text file by changing all the spaces to carriage return characters. This left me with a dictionary file like this: Haemonchus contortus Haemonchus coprophilis Haemonchus corrugata Not only was it out of alphabetical order (which Word didn't seem to mind), but there were many redundancies where the same word was repeated many times over. This would obviously slow down the spelling check. I couldn't see a way around this using Word, and moreover when I tried to sort the list into alphabetical order, Word announced that it was too long for it to do that. At this point I was called off to do another index using Macrex, and it occurred to me in a blinding flash that removing duplicate entries and sorting into alphabetical order was just the sort of thing Macrex did superbly well. So I created a 'dummy' index in Macrex, and loaded my dictionary file into it as if it were a backup file. One merge and one sort was enough to create the sequence I needed, and then I could save my new dictionary file as a 'backup' file and throw away the dummy index. I loaded my new dictionary file into the Word spelling checker and Word now alerts me to any entries that I have made which are not in the list of descriptors I am supposed to be matching. One problem remains, however - as far as I know there is no way to turn off the 'main' dictionary file for Word, which contains all the common everyday words like 'cat' and 'calendar'. So if I mistakenly write Haemonchus calendar ---- instead of Haemonchus calendulis it will pass the spelling checker even though the word 'calendar' is not in the file of permitted descriptors. (Any suggestions on this?) One advantage of a big job like this is that it makes it worthwhile to spend time on trying to speed up working practices, rather than just rushing to meet a deadline. There are many aspects of indexing which can be facilitated like this, thereby allowing faster turnaround and/or more time for creative input. (For instance, the 'AutoCorrect' feature in Word can save hours of typing in the long term). Macrex and Cindex, useful though they are, are by no means the last word. Next installment -- using Grep to retrieve descriptors for selection. Regards Jonathan Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Adding page numbers to an index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE importing a WordPerfect 5.1 file to an indexing program: For Macrex, you save the file as an ASCII file. If it is already an index, you search and replace all indented subentries (usually and three spaces or a tab) with an underline and comma first. Then you run the ASCII file through a utility in Macrex that transforms it into its own format, and changes the underlines to repeated headings. To get to an entry in Macrex for anywhere else in the index, you would type the first few letters of it, and it would appear on the screen, and you would hit escape, add the page number, and be done. Did the author write the entries on the manuscript pages? If so, it might be simplest to just enter the terms again. Or did the author use dummy page numbers? If there were dummy page numbers, the file could be changed to page-number order in Macrex, and then it would be MUCH simpler to change the numbers. As for cost for such a job, I would charge by the hour, at least $25. This can be tedious, but the indexer must be accurate. The fact that there are no concepts to think about should make the job go faster, and the price would work out accordingly. Elinor Lindheimer President, American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Adding page numbers to an index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >2. Given that we'd expect little or no manipulation of proper-name entries, >what percentage of the normal rate would an indexer expect if the author >were willing to handle all conceptual entries? What percentage would an >indexer expect if the author provided MS page numbers for the conceptual >entries, to be converted proof page numbers? > In the past year, I was assigned an index of a 6th edition in which I was to update the previous index (only printed version available). Not exactly comparable to your project, but even though the project was not as intellectually challenging as creating an index would have been, the coordination of matching old entries to new page numbers was considerable. Actually. If I had not had an established rate with a long-time customer, I would have called early in the project and made a case for charging more. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com/~prider ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:46:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Adding page numbers to an index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Jennifer L. Comeau wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >Hi, folks. We might have an unusual indexing project, and I'm trying to find >out more information so that we can present it to the author. The project is >a book on Swedish literature, and it will be a large tome (we're guessing >around 700 pages). The author has already created a draft index--all the >entries, subentries, and cross-references, but no locators of any kind--and >is not sure he wants to enter the page numbers when proofs are available. >Most of the entries are proper names of people and works, and because of the >nature of the work, additional subentries and cross-references on the proper >names are very unlikely; also, because the work is trying to be >comprehensive, we'd be somewhat reluctant to delete entries for what might >normally be "passing" references. Thus, little analysis would be required on >the proper-name entries; for those entries, the job of entering page numbers >would mostly be mechanical. Here are our questions: > >1. Can Cindex or Macrex import a WordPerfect 5.1 file as the basis for an >index? If so, would that assist in any way in the process of entering page >numbers? > This can be done in Macrex by creating an empty index and then reading in a text file (which WP can produce) as if it were a 'backup' file. >2. Given that we'd expect little or no manipulation of proper-name entries, >what percentage of the normal rate would an indexer expect if the author >were willing to handle all conceptual entries? What percentage would an >indexer expect if the author provided MS page numbers for the conceptual >entries, to be converted proof page numbers? > >Any thoughts? > Yes - DON'T!!! Author indexes are notoriously bad. What guarantee do you have that the author has got every meaningful reference (and no meaningless ones), or that his/her cross-references will make sense to the reader? At the very least, compare the index with the book from a user's perspective and make sure that the author really has captured the information retrieval needs. As for what you're asking from an indexer, I'd be inclined to charge *more* per hour, rather than less. Your indexer has two choices: i) leaf through 700 pages, find every reference that might be in the draft index, look up the index and see if it really is there, and add a page number for it in some indexing program: ii) Go through the ms. independently, highlight every meaningful term, and create their own index, then go back and compare it with the author's list and fill in the gaps. Both of these would probably take as long as, or longer than, creating an index from scratch. In short, your author's list of meaningful terms - even if it is a good one - is really no more than a handy adjunct to the real indexing process. Jonathan. Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:26:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: WNY ASI fall meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Western New York Chapter American Society of Indexers Fall Meeting Mark your calendars! Date: Sunday, October 22, 1995 Time: 10:00 until 3:30 Place: Syracuse University School of Information Studies What and Who: Lori Lathrop will present her workshop on "Editing an Index for Quality and Useability" This will be a hands-on worshop for indexers who want to know how to evaluate the usability, exhaustivity, and quality of an index. Watch this space for information about registration, costs, lunch, and directions to the workshop. For questions: Kathryn Torgeson, President WNYASI (607) 257-5090 Charlotte Skuster, Secretary cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:26:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Adding page numbers to an index In-Reply-To: <199507252041.PAA21390@zoom.bga.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Jennifer Comeau wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > Hi, folks. We might have an unusual indexing project > > 2. Given that we'd expect little or no manipulation of proper-name entries, > what percentage of the normal rate would an indexer expect if the author > were willing to handle all conceptual entries? What percentage would an > indexer expect if the author provided MS page numbers for the conceptual > entries, to be converted proof page numbers? > > Any thoughts? Jennifer, The project is more difficult than you might think. The first point is that indexes written by a book's author are frequently bad. I wouldn't be doing a professional job if I didn't read the book for myself and compare the author's terms with the ones I'd use. This is more work than creating a new index. Unless the author has accurately and clearly indicated the manuscript page numbers or used dummy numbers, locating the correct page for each of the author's terms will be a time consuming job. Another concern I have is what I call the index's information architecture. Does it contain appropriate cross references? Has an effort been made to reduce scatter of related terms? How are entries with many page locators dealt with? Even if the entry is the name of an art work or novel, long strings of page numbers will reduce the index's usability. I would still analyze those references and use appropriate subheadings. I would probably increase rather than decrease my usual fee if the author and press insisted that I do the job exactly as outlined. There is a great deal of extra work locating all the applicable page references for each author entry. In addition, editing the index, expecially mending faults in the information architecture, would take more time than usual because the author probably didn't have these considerations in mind when constructing the draft index. As to the author handling the conceptual enteries: This is the work that a professional indexer is trained for. If anything, I'd have the indexer handle the conceptual entries and have the author or a clerical assistant locate page numbers for the other entries. In fact, the author probably has a much better idea which pages contained the information than anyone else, with the possible exception of the editor. Here are the short answers: 1) Have a professional indexer do the whole thing, from the beginning. The author's draft index could be helpful with term selection, and giving the indexer and idea of the depth and breadth of indexing desired. 2) If you want to use the author's index as written, have him/her help with the page numbers, or have a good clerical assistant locate prospective page numbers, to be reviewed by the author and editor. In this case, hire a professional indexer to do a conceptual/subject index which would be merged with the name/title index. The indexer can review the combined index and make changes as needed. I hope some of this helps. Au Revoir, Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:28:31 ECT Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Adding page numbers to an index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree completely with Jonathan and Glenda. Putting page numbers in a sorted index is more time-consuming than starting from scratch. Checking your index against the author's (which may or may not be any good) is also a time-eater. I prefer to work from a list of terms IN THE ORDER THEY APPEAR IN THE PAGES, if the author wants to make a list of concepts. (Not necessary in any well-written book, but some authors do like to help out, and I don't want to discourage them from caring about the index). I ask the author to prepare a list for the first few chapters, in the order of appearance in the text. That way I can find the term relative to terms I do see in the text, should there be anything I miss. I also get a handle on what is importance to the author, which helps. I would have to charge more to put page numbers into a sorted list of terms or to check my index against the author's when done. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services