From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.eduFri Aug 25 10:59:53 1995 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:55:20 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9506D" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:31:25 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HMartell@UH.EDU Subject: Re: Spanish term for "Indexer" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The term "indizador" or "indizadora" (if the indexer is a female), and "indizacion" (letter "o" has an acute accent mark) is a common term used by Spanish speaking librarians and indexers. These terms are not listed in the major dictionaries of the language, including the dictionary of the Real Academia Espanola (however, I do not have ready access to the latest edition, they are constantly accepting new words). However the terms are listed in some dictionaries of "usage" of the language, and in some bilingual dictionaries. IMHO, using these terms is not an incorrection. If you decide not to use this term, you will need to use the prase "confeccionador de indices" (i.e. index maker) or "confeccion (letter "o" has an acute accent) de indices" (i.e. index making). This way of expressing concepts that do not have a specific term, is standard procedure in Spanish. I would feel comfortable using either forms. I would like to hear other people's opinion regarding this matter. Helvetia Martell University of Houston Recovering the U.S. Hispanic Literary Heritage Project hmartell@uh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:31:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Software manual indexing ... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jan, Yikes! Your translators horror story sounds exactly like a few nightmare projects I've live through: Chunking in chapters in to you so that you can embed terms and you chunking them back out before you can index all of them, finishing the whole process with an insane string of overnighters trying to let them know what has changed as a result of your edits. Here's what I did to derail that whole process. I loudly and clearly let that client know that this was horrendously increasing my overhead with having to run out daily with incoming and outgoing Fedexes for each chapter and that my page rates did not account for that. The client responded by asking me to charge them for an extra 50 pages. (Consider how much you're worth on an hourly basis and add up all the hours spent copying files, filling out airbills, going to the Fedex box, etc. and you'll see what I mean.) Secondly, I encouraged them to move the indexing stage to much later in the production process. To do this, we had to go from embedding in Microsoft Word which the writers used to embedding in FrameMaker that the layout vendors imported the files into (with a few novel experiments sandwiched in between). Now, if I can just get this client to send me finalized versions of FrameMaker files instead of sending me interim versions from the writers and layout vendors we'll be cooking. Unfortunately, my "fix" became undone because the writers started writing in FrameMaker and sending me files early in the process again. Arrrrgh! (Being that I really complained about that last week, I don't think they'll try that again. The editor e-mailed me that she was very happy I had lost my voice in Montreal, BTW, so that I couldn't scream at her over the phone.) We'll get there eventually. IMHO, working with the software companies is a process that is always in a state of "becoming". ;-) This particular client and I have worked together on trying to solve the "indexing problem" for over two years. We've even tried getting the translators to live with a standalone index created in dedicated indexing software because they are the source of this embedded indexing madness. The translators refused, but one of the good things about working with software companies is that they are much more flexible than traditional publishers, at least my clients are. So there's hope that eventually we'll work out a way of creating good indexes without a lot of angst and gnashing of teeth. Taking names for a software manual indexers support group... ;-) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: > >Lynn's messages about indexing products with no names in FrameMaker with one >day to do 150 pages made me scream and laugh. It's so good to hear that it >happens to others besides me! > >How about: translators for a recent software project of mine wanted the index >written for each chapter separately. The chapters were going to be arriving >to me with a few days in between each one. And shipped to the translators >with the same strung-out schedule. The translation team thought I could index >each chapter, then when I was editing the whole index, I could just track >each and every change and they would adjust theirs to match it. I think I >finally got across the message that it would be a huge waste of time on my >part and theirs, and that if they could just wait until the index was done, >they could translate it without editing. The index can't be done before it's >done! > >What was the old saw about "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, or >you can have good quality. Choose two." Somehow I want to add a line in there >about "You can make me use horrible tools or do work five times over" and >doubling the price! > You wrote: > >Lynn's messages about indexing products with no names in FrameMaker with one >day to do 150 pages made me scream and laugh. It's so good to hear that it >happens to others besides me! > >How about: translators for a recent software project of mine wanted the index >written for each chapter separately. The chapters were going to be arriving >to me with a few days in between each one. And shipped to the translators >with the same strung-out schedule. The translation team thought I could index >each chapter, then when I was editing the whole index, I could just track >each and every change and they would adjust theirs to match it. I think I >finally got across the message that it would be a huge waste of time on my >part and theirs, and that if they could just wait until the index was done, >they could translate it without editing. The index can't be done before it's >done! > >What was the old saw about "You can have it fast, you can have it cheap, or >you can have good quality. Choose two." Somehow I want to add a line in there >about "You can make me use horrible tools or do work five times over" and >doubling the price! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:31:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Cape Cod Freelancers get-together, June 29 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Cape Cod Schmooze Thursday, June 27, 1995 6:30 to 9:30 pm (dinner and/or drinks) Mattakeese Wharf Just off Route 61, Barnstable Village The Massachusetts Chapter of the American Society of Indexers and the Freelance Editorial Association are sponsoring a joint Cape Cod Schmooze on Thursday, June 27 in Barnstable Village.. All are welcome! You don't have to be a member of either organization to attend. Come, meet and talk to other freelance indexers, writers, copyeditors, proofreaders, designers, wannabes, and others about work or just to socialize. We had a great get-together in April and hope to see familiar and new faces at the June schmooze. Join us for dinner and/or drinks or dessert. Directions to Mattakeese Wharf: Take 6A to Barnstable Village. Turn at Millway, at the light, toward the harbor. For more information, contact Marilyn Rowland at (508) 457-4525 or Mrowland@aol.com, or Susan Phelan at (508) 362-5172. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:32:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: differentiation ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Craig, I think part of the problem here is the gnarliness of running unanalyzed locators off the main entry, then analyzing subentries. (Am I correct in assuming you're working with more than one subentry here and showed us only the relevant one?) My preference would be to analyze all of the entries as subentries, especially that one that goes for two pages which suggests a substantive passage there. If some of the mentions of Carter are too fleeting to analyze, then it's logical (IMHO) to ask if they should be indexed at all. As an index user, I tend to skip unanalyzed locators coming off a main entry and home right in on the subentries where there's much more promise of making a first-time hit and that reflects itself in indexes I create. Anyway, if you develop a list of subentries, I don't see a problem of having two with the same page number. (Of course, this can go to extremes and one can end up with a silly-looking list of subentries with all the same page numbers which suggests consolidating them into a higher order topic.) Laura, If inverting subentries puts the most important word first, I don't have a problem with that, if not overdone to the point where the subentry list is hard to scan. In the hypothetical example you gave, listing a series of inverted subentries beginning with the word "strategies", I would see a need for creating subsubs for them under a subentry "strategy to relieve the visual tedium of seeing the word "strategy" repeated so often. OTOH, your suggestions for creating subentries for foreign policies and domestic policies is an excellent alternative to subsubs. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:32:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Using biz by Norman Knight ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Matt, Not having read Knight's book, I've never heard of the term "biz" before now in indexing! Does this mean something like "bis" in Italian indicating encore or something that's repeated? Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs You wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Why not use 80 biz for the second reference, as described by G. Norman >Knight on page 107 of "Indexing, the Art of"? > >Matt Miller >memiller@netcom.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Jun 1995 10:32:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HECTOR ECHEVERRI <74563.435@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Spanish term for "Indexer" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Recently, I commissioned a Spanish translation of a very basic, summarized standard agreement for work performed. The translator claimed that there is no vernacular term for "indexer." An index is indice, etc., but the noun form or appellation doesn't exit. Can someone familiar with Spanish confirm this, or suggest a way to translate this designation? In return, I'll share my elementary "propuesta" (which had to do with providing the added feature of bilingual subject terms). [::::::: William Abrams, Chief Serials Cataloger +++ Portland State Univ. Library, P.O. Box 1151, Portland, OR 97207 +++ (503) 725-4574 Fax (503) 725-5799 ++++ abrams@godzilla.lib.pdx.edu :::::::] ----- Indexer -> "Indizador" Index -> "Indice" To Index -> "Indizar" - Hector Echeverria Multisystems Thesaurus Construction Made Easy P.O. Box 833205 Miami, FL 33283-3205 74563.435@Compuserve.Com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Jun 1995 14:08:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@aol.com Subject: Concordance software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am trying to locate some software (freeware, shareware, or commercial) that will scan a document in Word or WordPerfect under Windows and build a concordance, i.e., a list of the words in the document with a frequency for each word. If it could link from the word list back to the document, that would also be a plus. Other optional features, would be counting words used multiply in sentences or paragraphs. If anyone has heard of or can point me towards such software, I'd appreciate it. Thanx for any help in advance, Dave Ream ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:54:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Matt Miller Subject: Re: Using biz by Norman Knight In-Reply-To: <199506221554.IAA26359@netcom19.netcom.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Lynn, Since you, and others, might not have access to Knight's out of print book, I have typed in the pertinent info. Under the section entitled, "Dividing up the text page" the third paragraph begins: "The user can be helped on occasion by the use of the Latin words bis and ter after page references. It sometimes happens that an item is alluded to in two or more quite unconnected passages on the same page; a simple reference (say 172) in the index will direct the user to that page where he may find an allusion near the top, but, this not being what he is seeking, he may conclude that it is not there, when all the time it was waiting for him in a second allusion lower down. In such a case, by employing 172 bis (="twice") or 172 ter (="thrice") or even 172 quater (="four times") the indexer can provide adequate warning and prevent the catastrophe. Some indexers object to using bis and ter, which they characterize as unnecessary spoon-feeding of the user; it is his business, they maintain, to read in its entirety any page to which he may be directed in the index. But such a contention makes no allowance for the pace at which life is perforce lived today or for human nature. In any event the practice (of using bis and ter) meets with the approval of the British Standard, while I for one feel that any device is well worth while whereby the path of people who consult indexes is made smoother with a minimum of extra labour for the indexer. Whenever bis and ter are used in an index, they must be briefly explained in its preliminary note. Instead of bis and ter, some indexers like to put numbers in parenthesis immediately after the page references: 23(2), 17(3)." Matt Miller memiller@netcom.com On Thu, 22 Jun 1995, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Matt, > > Not having read Knight's book, I've never heard of the term "biz" > before now in indexing! Does this mean something like "bis" in Italian > indicating encore or something that's repeated? > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs > > You wrote: > > > >----------------------------Original message-------------------------- > >Why not use 80 biz for the second reference, as described by G. Norman > >Knight on page 107 of "Indexing, the Art of"? > > > >Matt Miller > >memiller@netcom.com > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:59:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: john_collis@colybrand.com.au Subject: word-indexing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A day or two ago, a message on this mail group asked for info on software that can index all words in WordPerfect and Word documents (for Windows) - and generate a list, showing frequencies - and perform other useful tasks. As someone who has used the software for some years, I can suggest you have a look at Isys text retrieval software. It can do what you are asking and much more. It's available from: Odyssey Development Inc 650 S. Chery Street Suite 220 Denver CO 80222 USA Tel 1 303 394 0091 Fax 1 303 394 0096 It's a commercial package, available in both Windows and DOS versions and is very configurable. You can point it at a Wordprocessed document and ask it to "index" all the (non-common) words in it (ie you can tell it to create a database consisting only of that document). Within a matter of a few seconds it is able to provide you with a list of all the words in that document with their frequencies shown alongside the words. You can save the resulting list as a text file. You can tell the software to exclude words occurring less than x times, you can alter the "common word" list [stop words?], etc, etc. When it indexes the words, it generates it's own database/resource files so that it can find combinations of words etc. Although you cannot "directly" read this database, you can ask any questions you wish via either: (1) the ordinary query interface (the Isys software is really designed as text retrieval software for people searching through large numbers of docs) (2) Using DOS command line calls. You can issue a whole variety of dos command line calls asking it whether a particular phrase / words near each other / etc etc is to be found in the document and you can tell it to feed the answer into a text file or the screen. If you want the actual words of the line or para where the "hit" occurred, again, this can be obtained by a command line call in the same way. (3) Windows "calls". If you are able to write programs in Visual Basic, etc you can make windows "calls" to the Isys DLL file. That is, if you have access to something like Visual Basic you can create a WIndows screen that allows you to ask the same sort of questions as mentioned at (2) above. I don't know what the price in the USA is. Here in Australia the list price is A$525, and the street price is lower. I suspect a slightly lower price in US dollars in the US market. Regards John_Collis@colybrand.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 16:00:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Don Tupling Organization: University of Windsor Subject: Bis in Indexes ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On June 20 Mat Miller wrote "Why not use 80 biz for the second reference, as described by G. Norman Knight on page 107 of "Indexing, the Art of"? Knight actually used the Latin words "bis", "ter", and "quater", to indicate two, three, or four references to a subject on the same page of a text. The object being, to warn a reader not to stop after reading the first reference. I have rarely seen this used, although I always thought it was a useful idea. It would have to be explained in the introduction, however, since few understand Latin now. Don Tupling dtuplin@uwindsor.ca telephone (519) 253-4232 Ext. 3177 University of Windsor, Leddy Library 401 Sunset Ave. Windsor, Ontario Canada N9B 3P4 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:30:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: johno@spry.com Subject: Re: Using biz by Norman Knight In-Reply-To: <199506261956.MAA17027@homer.spry.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Matt Miller wrote: > Instead of bis and ter, some indexers like to put numbers in >parenthesis immediately after the page references: 23(2), 17(3)." As in paragraph numbers? John O. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * John Overbaugh johno@spry.com Technical Documentation SPRY, Inc. CompuServe Internet Division Makers of Internet In A Box and Internet Office Award-Winning PC to Internet Connectivity Solutions * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:30:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Using biz by Norman Knight In-Reply-To: <9506261955.AA15204@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm an English major who was trained as a librarian B.C. (Before Computers) at the University of Chicago. And in my 30-year career on and off the reference desk and in indexing, I have never encountered this, either as a librarian or an index user. So while it may be in the British standard, I would vote against it. If the practice is so esoteric that most of us have no idea what it means, then it doesn't belong in indexes, IMHO. Reminds me a little of the practice of some library catalogers who [used to] follow standards to produce technically perfect catalog entries that can't be interpreted without assistance. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Mon, 26 Jun 1995, Matt Miller wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In any event the > practice (of using bis and ter) meets with the approval of the British > Standard, while I for one feel that any device is well worth while whereby > the path of people who consult indexes is made smoother with a minimum of > extra labour for the indexer. > Whenever bis and ter are used in an index, they must be briefly > explained in its preliminary note. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:31:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: word-indexing software In-Reply-To: <199506262000.PAA06573@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Word for Windows has a Concordance function that will do what you're asking. I assume that WordPerfect has a similar function. In Word, pull down a menu from "Insert" and select "Index and Tables" (as in Table-of-Contents). You will see a menu that will allow you to choose between run-on and indented and the number of columns per page. I know a few small publishers (very small) who do their own indexing and begin by generating this kind of index. I played with it a bit as a student, but found that it made editing the index much more involved for me. I spent more time on those than when I began indexing "from scratch". -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:31:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: word-indexing software ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >A day or two ago, a message on this mail group asked for info >on software that can index all words in WordPerfect and Word >documents (for Windows) - and generate a list, showing >frequencies - and perform other useful tasks. > I would suggest some of the tools in the Garbo archive. There are programs for word frequency, thesauri and readability. Have a browse below. URL: gopher://plaza.aarnet.EDU.AU.:70/11/ftp/micros/pc/garbo/pc/linguistics I've put it under 'Affiliates' on the AusSI pages too... (see URL below) Cheers Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker/aussi.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Jun 1995 11:31:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jack Shaw Subject: Sure you've heard of "bis"... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ...you just didn't know you'd heard of it. The modem you use for the internet specifies its speed (bps) in terms of the CCITT standard it complies with-- V.32, V.32bis, V.42, V.42bis. The "...bis" portion means the second iteration of the CCITT standard. V.32, the first cut, supports 9600 bps. But V.32bis (second version) supports 14,400 bps... And you thought it meant "bisynchronous" or some such... tsk, tsk. Well, I did. So why shouldn't you? Regards, J. Shaw Software AG Darmstadt, Germany ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 08:57:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Using biz by Norman Knight In-Reply-To: <9506271659.AA08910@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Carolyn Weaver wrote: > I'm an English major who was trained as a librarian B.C. (Before Computers) > at the University of Chicago. And in my 30-year career on and off the > reference desk and in indexing, I have never encountered [bis], either as > a librarian or an index user. So while it may be in the British > standard, I would vote against it. If the practice is so > esoteric that most of us have no idea what it means, then it doesn't > belong in indexes, IMHO. Hear, hear! I agree completely! I've been indexing since 1984 (and using indexes for a lot longer than that), and I've never used or seen "bis." Please add my vote to Carolyn's. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Books make sense of life. The only problem is that the lives they make sense of are . . . never your own."--Julian Barnes