========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:17:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SeIndex@aol.com Subject: USDA Course Advice ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to everyone for your advice regarding the USDA Course on Indexing. I guess my remark, about nine months to complete the course being waaaaaay to long, was a bit premature, sorry! I'm just so "darned" anxious about beginning this new phase of my life that I jumped the gun. The fact that I still haven't received my first lesson (or anything else for that matter) from the USDA may have fueled my anxiety. I intend to be as thorough and methodical about completing the course and I would about complete an index. It appears that I'm now at least 18 months (time necessary to complete both USDA courses) away from being prepared to begin my new career. This still seems like such a long time away! But, hey, I want to the the best I can be (no, I'm not joining the Army) and I'll do what I must. Sue Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:17:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Web indexing: converting an index to HTML ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am interested in anyone having say a Pascal or C program which will convert an ASCII output from an indexing package like CINDEX or Macrex. A macro would do if there is one for CINDEX and/or Macrex. This will enable someone to create a 'normal' index with URLs instead of page numbers then run it through this converter to produce HTML - no HTML knowledge needed! This should open the door to beginners with the Web who want to use their indexing skills in the hypertext world. The Problem: What I want to do is say convert: P publications publicat.htm conference proceedings proceed.htm to: Index

P
publications

The guts of it is swap the entry and URL around: publications publicat.htm <=> publications I tried using the ENHANCE switch in CINDEX but you still have to write a program to swap the two around or do it manually. Anyway, any input is welcome. It is for an article I am writing for the next AusSI Newsletter on Web indexing. The tutorial will approach it from the perspective of a 'single' family of documents rather than the more global one most of us are familiar with on the internet. I.e the index for a hypertext family of documents by the same author, the next step up from a book or magazine index. After that I'll venture into the more bibliographic index which this leads into, namely documents spread between different authors and in different locations. The first attempt at writing about the Web at large was too much to get the mind around. Hopefully this will be more attainable. Cheers Dwight Webmaster AusSI ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia tel +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w), fax (work) +61-2-4383729 My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 11:24:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: USDA Basic Indexing course I've received several off-list requests for information on the USDA Basic Indexing course, so I thought I'd send that information directly to index-l. If you're interested in taking Basic Indexing, please write to USDA Graduate School Correspondence Program Ag Box 9911 South Agriculture Building, Room 1112 14th Street and Independence Avenue, SW Washington, DC 20250-9911 You can also call the grad school at 202-720-7123. For further information on indexing as a career, check the American Society of Indexers' Web page at http://www.well.com/user/asi "Frequently asked questions about indexing" at that Web site should supply you with lots of information. Hope this helps. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) Life in Florida: "A loggerhead turtle fell from the sky and hit a man in his white Chevy Nova."--Tallahassee Democrat, 9/17/95 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:25:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from QMGATE.FNAL.GOV Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:59:35 -0500 From: Jim Lasenby Subject: Re: USDA Course Advice USDA Indexing course: I'am planning an early retirement. I have an interest in becoming a freelance Indexer. Can anyone tell me how difficult the USDA Course is, and will it give me the necessary foundation to launch my new career? Are there any experts out there that would be willing to accept an apprentice after I complete the courses? How difficult is it to become a free lance Indexer? Thanks J. Lasenby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 14:26:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: USDA Course Advice In-Reply-To: <9510231545.AA05101@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Not to denigrate the importance of formal training, BUT: There are LOTS of indexers (including yours truly) who have never taken the USDA course and who are producing high-quality professional indexes for satisfied clients. Join ASI. Read the excellent "how to" publications published by ASI. Take advantage of other training opportunities. Read Nancy Mulvaney's book and others listed in the Index-L FAQ. Become familiar with NISO standards. Analyze a well-done index and work backwards from the index to the text to figure out how the indexer came up with the terms. Do practice indexes on books that lack an index. Reindex a book that in your opinion has a rotten one. Gain experience by volunteering to index an organization's archives, procedures manual, or newsletter. Take courses on how to run a home-based or freelance business (since that is what you will be spending a LOT of your energy on). Develop contacts with local indexers who are willing to provide advice. In other words, indexing is a lot like raising kids. Professional advice and training are helpful, but in the end, success is still measured by the time, effort, and tenacity you put into the job. And if you wait until the "perfect" time, you'll never get started. Biting my tongue to avoid the rest of the "Just Do It!" speech, Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 SeIndex@aol.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > It appears that I'm now at least 18 months (time necessary to complete both > USDA courses) away from being prepared to begin my new career. This still > seems like such a long time away! But, hey, I want to the the best I can be > (no, I'm not joining the Army) and I'll do what I must. > > Sue Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:59:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: To take a course or not take a course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Carolyn Weaver wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > Not to denigrate the importance of formal training, BUT: > > There are LOTS of indexers (including yours truly) who have never taken > the USDA course and who are producing high-quality professional indexes for > satisfied clients. Just wanted to second Carolyn's posting. Yes, I teach the USDA Basic Indexing course, but I never took a course in indexing. I learned on the job, when I worked as an in-house legal indexer for West Publishing Company. West hired me fresh out of law school and plopped me in its indexing department. I worked for West for 1 1/2 years before I went into business on my own. I think Carolyn has some excellent advice. A course can be a terrific help. But it's not the only way to become an indexer. When I was still at West but thinking of going into business for myself as a translator and interpreter, I started doing informational interviews with anyone and everyone who did anything that sounded interesting to me. I was chatting with the vice president of a publishing house that produced, among other things, foreign language textbooks. He suggested that I think about becoming a freelance indexer. I'd never heard of such a thing, and I burst out laughing. But the VP was serious. "That's what you do at West all day, after all," he said. "We have a home ec textbook that desperately needs an index. Will you do it? We'll pay you." I told him I'd get back to him in a few days. The next day, the idea of being a freelance indexer didn't seem so hilarious. It seemed plausible. I called the VP and accepted the indexing project. And after that project, I kept on accepting more. The VP referred me to other publishers. Within six months, I had so much work, that I had to decide whether to stay on at West or become self-employed. I chose the latter. Go talk to a reference librarian. I'll bet there's some book in the Ready Reference Section of the library that doesn't have an index and that *should* have one. Offer to index it for free. You may even be able to sell that index to the book's publisher. And you'll have an index under your belt. If there's a Small Business Development Center (SBDC) near you, make an appointment. SBDCs are usually staffed by retired entrepreneurs who're eager to help you. If I hadn't gone to an SBDC for help, I probably would've taken a whole lot more time to become self-employed. The advice you'll get is terrific--and it's free! Read Sarah and Paul Edwards's book, Working from Home. If that doesn't energize you, nothing will. It covers just about anything you might want to know about getting started in a home-based business. Use your imagination. There're lots of opportunities out there. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) Life in Florida: "A loggerhead turtle fell from the sky and hit a man in his white Chevy Nova."--Tallahassee Democrat, 9/17/95 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:59:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Telecommuting in cataloguing and indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have volunteered to write an article on "Indexing" for an electronic journal. A special edition next year will be dedicated to the topic "Telecommuting in cataloguing". Since indexing is similar in many ways to cataloguing, and since indexers have been 'telecommuting' for a long time, I thought it would be useful to describe our experience. I have a fairly good idea of what I want to write in most sections, however in others I would welcome input from the group. 1. I would like to compare indexing with cataloguing. If any of you work as cataloguers and indexers, I would like to know what differences you find in both the intellectual and the practical (lifestyle) aspects of the work. 2. Many indexers come from librarianship, and others from publishing. I am keen to hear from any of you who learnt about indexing in some other way. Some couples both index; did any of you discover indexing through family members? 3. What other fields do you think mesh well with indexing as a freelance business. Some indexers are also editors, technical communicators. Anything else? If you now index full-time, why do you choose this rather than a mix of, say, indexing and editing. 4. Do you see any areas of expansion for indexing and related work (e.g. CD-ROM indexing)? Have any of you created indexing products to fill a market niche (e.g. I have heard of someone who created and sold an index to Osborne computer manuals, as these were apparently poorly indexed (or not indexed at all?)). 5. Do you have any general comments on indexing as a small business which would be relevant to cataloguers establishing something similar? 6. How well do different types of indexing work mesh together (e.g. pictorial, database, periodical, book; are there any others?)? All contributions will be gratefully received. Thankyou in advance. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 11:59:49 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM)" Subject: text(s) for usda course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- can someone please tell me if nancy mulvany's book is one of the texts for the usda indexing course? i want to buy a copy, but if i'm going to receive it with my tuition for the course, i'll wait until then. thanks. lauren titus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:09:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Howard Subject: Only one subentry? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm currently a technical writer, but I'm very interested in indexing. To me, one of the most important parts of the software manuals I write is the index. After all, if a reader can't find what I wrote, I may as well not have written it in the first place. And as a writer, I don't want that to happen. I've been lurking on this list for what seems like forever, learning all kinds of things, and I've just now come up with a question I haven't seen here yet. This may seem a rather nit-picky question, but you all seem to be detail-oriented people, so hopefully you'll consider it a good question! Is it o.k. to have an entry with only one subentry? As a writer, I've been taught that you can't really have a list of one, but in certain situations in indexing it seems needed to me. Here's my situation: I want to put in an index entry for "Large model", which is a specific setting in a configuration file. There really is only one situation where it is ever used in the software, but to have an entry just called "Large model" seems real vague to me. What I want to do is: Large model in configuration file, 27 I feel that would give them some context when they're looking it up in the index, but it seems strange to have an entry with only one subentry. I suppose I could do: Large model in configuration file, 27 but I think the line would be too long, causing it to wrap around and look ugly in the index. Ideas anyone? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * FAVORITE MUPPET QUOTES: * * Angela Howard, Technical Writer * "Food for thought. Thought from food." * * Navisoft (an America Online Co.) * (spoken by two Grapdelights who were * * angela@navisoft.com * weighing moral dilemmas before being * * * eaten on an episode of "Dinosaurs") * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:09:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: text(s) for usda course In-Reply-To: <9510241710.AA04581@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM) wrote: > can someone please tell me if nancy mulvany's book is one of the texts for the > usda indexing course? Yes, Nancy Mulvany's book, Indexing Books, is one of the texts for the USDA Basic Indexing course. Students also receive the indexing chapter of the Chicago Manual of Style (14th edition) and a course guide. If you're taking the Basic Indexing course, I'd strongly suggest that you look at the entire Chicago Manual of Style. It should be in the reference section of your local library. As an indexer, you'll need to refer to CMS frequently, and not just to the chapter on indexing. CMS costs about $40.00, so don't go out and buy a complete one until you're sure that you need it. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) Life in Florida: "A loggerhead turtle fell from the sky and hit a man in his white Chevy Nova."--Tallahassee Democrat, 9/17/95 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 14:09:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: Indexing CD-ROMs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 24 October 1995 Thanks to all of you who wrote to me about your experiences with CD-ROM indexing or citations to materials about indexing CD-ROMs! I really appreciate all your help! Now, I'll have to find out more about this particular job....! Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:57:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Only one subentry? In-Reply-To: <9510241909.AA05293@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Tue, 24 Oct 1995, Angela Howard wrote: > Is it o.k. to have an entry with only one subentry? Yes. Sometimes, you really do need to modify a main heading to make it clear. > Large model > in configuration file, 27 If you've only got one subheading, you should run it into the main heading. So, you'd end up with Large model, in configuration file, 27 I don't know if I'd worry about aesthetics. If your readers need "in configuration file" to make "Large model" absolutely clear, then by all means, let 'em have the subhead! Just my $.02. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) Life in Florida: "A loggerhead turtle fell from the sky and hit a man in his white Chevy Nova."--Tallahassee Democrat, 9/17/95 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:57:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: single subentries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 24 October 1995 Angela, Rather than having a single subentry, I will often use parentheses to enclose the explanatory info as follows: Large model (in configuration file), 27. In my mind, that gets the subject right out in front, but offers some explanation about what relevance it has, *without* having to treat the explanatory information as a subentry. Hope this helps. Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:57:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: REVANS4509@aol.com Subject: Re: Only one subentry? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-24 14:50:44 EDT, you write: >I could do: > Large model in configuration file, 27 > >but I think the line would be too long, causing it to wrap around and look >ugly in the index. I think you answered your own question. For instance, I have a client that limits the index to two levels and individual levels to 70 characters each. I also do it in other cases where the one-line version just looks ugly. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:58:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Alternative Indexing Course Advertising on this list (and other lists sponsored by academic institutions) is supposed to be taboo. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | [Moderator's note: Carol is right...I was asleep at the wheel when I let that go through.] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:59:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Quite frankly, I don't see any problem with completing a course in nine >months or a year. A "normal" course at a college or university may take a >semester or two. Why shouldn't an indexing course take the same amount of >time? Hazel, you and I don't disagree often, but . . . One semester is 13 wks, not 52. I took that same course (not from you, unfortunately), and it took me a year to finish, because the instructor was so slow grading and returning my work. What was wrong with that pace for me was the lack of momentum. By the time I got a lesson back (often four weeks later), I'd forgotten what I'd done. So, I would say that it's just as bad to go too slowly as it is to go too fast. >Anyway, that's my opinion, based on all the student assignments I've >corrected. All I can say to that is there are indexing teachers and then there are indexing teachers. I only wish all were as conscientious as you. But please don't be too hard on those of us who want(ed) to go at a quicker pace to keep up the momentum; we're not necessarily trying to rush through something that requires a lot of time and hard, careful work. Cheers, Carol Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:00:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Only one subentry? In-Reply-To: <199510241811.LAA09696@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Angela, it IS possible (and correct) to occasionally have a main entry with only one subentry. But the situation you speak of is not really one of those cases, IMO. Far better to write entries such as the following: Large model (in configuration file) Configuration file, large model in The fact that an occasional line wraps around is not a big problem in most indexes. It might not look beautiful, but sometimes it can't be helped. It would be a lot better NOT to break it at the page number (leaving a couple of numbers floating by themselves on a new line), but other than that, it works fine. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:01:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@aol.com Subject: Re: text(s) for usda course ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-24 12:39:31 EDT, TITUSL@FLP.LIB.PA.US (LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM)) writes: >can someone please tell me if nancy mulvany's book is one of the texts for >the >usda indexing course? Lauren, Yes, Nancy Mulvany's book, _Indexing Books_ was my textbook for the USDA Basic Indexing course. Not knowing that, I bought a copy and then got another copy with the course materials. I sold the extra to another ASI member at an ASI meeting. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:31:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@aol.com Subject: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am indexing a book on real estate. I have a main entry Mortgages and subentries listing the different types of mortgages. Most, but not all of the subentry citations are found in the chapter on mortgages. My question is should I put separate entries under FHA, balloon, adjustable-rate, etc., etc. also? Normally, I would put mortgages without the subentries and then list each one separately as a main heading but I thought that in this circumstance the readers (a book for agents) would know to look under mortgages. Do I need to have them listed in both places? Another question: I capitalized the first letter of all my main entries. If I put a see reference to another main entry do I have to capitalize it or can I put it in lower case? Another question: A publisher stated that they pay fifty cents per entry which usually works out to $1.00- $1.50 per page. Does this mean they want sparse indexing? What do you think of this? Judy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:46:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Judy wrote: >I am indexing a book on real estate. I have a main entry Mortgages >and subentries listing the different types of mortgages. Most, but >not all of the subentry citations are found in the chapter on >mortgages. My question is should I put separate entries under FHA, >balloon, adjustable-rate, etc., etc. also? Normally, I would put >mortgages without the subentries and then list each one separately >as a main heading but I thought that in this circumstance the >readers (a book for agents) would know to look under mortgages. >Do I need to have them listed in both places? Judy I would say: put the different types of mortgages, FHA, Balloon, etc. *firstly* and *most critically* as MAIN HEADINGS! Then if you feel you want to also double post them as subs under "Mortgages", be sure that you carefully double check for matching of all the page references in the editing process. As Fran Lennie points out, editing is what makes a good index! There is another consideration. If you choose to put them also as subs under Mortgage, if any of the Main head postings have more than say 1 subhead, you should have a "see" from the respective sub at "Mortgages", as there is substantive information at the main head location that would necessitate a sub-sub treatment at "Mortgages". Most of the time, I prefer to use the following approach when handling this issue which comes up *all the time* in indexing and is always problematic no matter how long you've been indexing: 1) a subhead "types of" under "Mortgages", referring to a text section that summarizes all the mortgage types, hopefully with say a table, and a term either saying "see also specific types of Mortgages", or if you really want to be cool "see also Balloon payments; FANNIE MAE; FHA mortgages...... My reasoning is that a person can go to the "types of" spot and see all the different types of mortgages, which he can look up as Main headings for furher information. >From a hierarchical standpoint, "Mortgages" is a broader term and I would tend to use subs applying to Mortgages in the general, like Mortgages application process... history of... paying off early... rate of: fixed vs. variable.. renegotiating.... as opposed to specific mortgage types. Don't get me wrong, it's OK to have specific types as subs under Mortgages, *if and only if* they also appear as main headings, and if the post as a main heading has *all* the relevant locators. The problem is if you get in the habit of putting "specific things" as subs under more general terms, they can get "lost" there and be difficult for the reader to find. Some people actually do like this: FHA mortgages, see Mortgages, FHA which I personally put in the bizarre category. The real problem here if you haven't figured it out already, is that this is only one case of perhaps 50 similar ones in this book. In a really good sized book there can be a *thousand* similar cases. This double posting process can rapidly tie your brain in knots and make editing even a medium size book a 2 day affair, and if anyone has been paying attention to my sig file, you know mine is already tied into knots as it is. I'm anxious to see how other indexers handle this problem. I've been talking to Fran Lennie; I think what we need is some means of "marking together" terms that we double post, so that later some sort of indexing expert system can ask us: Yo indexer!: I notice you have 1)FHA mortgages, 100-102, 408, 560; and 2) Mortgages, FHA, 100-102; ACTION: 1) make these have the same locators? 2) convert subheading to a see reference? Notice how the locators match for the 100-102 section but not for the later locators. The 100-102 section would have been from the chapter on Mortgages you mentioned, when you were straight with your "scheme" of posting FHA references both at Mortgages, FHA and FHA mortgages. Then when FHA mortgages were mentioned later in another context, you failed to remember you had also placed it as a sub under Mortgages and just indexed it "directly". In my experience, 1-2 chapters is about all one can be expected to keep track of these double posting schemes (more like 1 in many projects given deadline pressures, etc.) Thus if you make it a general habit to index just about everything "directly" as a main heading, this problem comes up less often. In my early days I updated many existing indexes, and though many people are probably saying, "he's just flat wrong, I can keep track of every double-posting in the whole index in my head" had I just 1 cent now for every double-posting error I caught in the early days I wouldn't be working now! If the whole book was about Mortgages, then there would normally be several chapters (the first couple say) that discussed general mortgage concepts, which would provide most of the subs for the "Mortgage" main heading, then a separate chapter for each type. In that case, since there will invariably be many subs under each of the separate types of mortgages, I'll have a see reference under "Mortgages" for every type discussed. Much of what I feel about this area stems from my convictions about the natural language approach to information retrieval, which says people pretty much look things up as they speak them; thus if they want to know about FHA mortgages they go look in the F's, not under mortgages. This wasn't always considered the case, and many older texts are quite "classified" in the sense that vast quantities of terms exist only as a sub under a main heading the indexer apparently felt the reader "should" be looking at for the term. I would agree that in *this particular* case mortgages would also be a likely target term. Other double-postings are less usable, like one of my favorites: Electrical system, fuses... By god when I want to know about replacing a fuse, I want to find it in the "F"s!!! Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Only one subentry? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 14:09 24/10/95 ECT, Angela Howard wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Here's my situation: I want to put in an >index entry for "Large model", which is a specific setting in a >configuration file. >There really is only one situation where it is ever used in the software, >but to have an entry just called "Large model" seems real vague to me. What >I want to do is: > Large model > in configuration file, 27 > >I feel that would give them some context when they're looking it up in the >index, but it seems strange to have an entry with only one subentry. I suppose >I could do: > Large model in configuration file, 27 > >but I think the line would be too long, causing it to wrap around and look ugly >in the index. Ideas anyone? These are two different issues. Whether the long line 'looks ugly' is secondary. To many people including myself an index entry with a single subheading also 'looks ugly'. Others don't care either way. The main thing is to convey the meaning, which is best done by the single line entry. Perhaps it could be abbreviated to 'Large model configuration'? Jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-25 17:22:27 EDT, Kevin wrote: >This double posting >process can rapidly tie your brain in knots and make editing even a medium >size book a 2 day affair, and if anyone has been paying attention to my sig >file, you know mine is already tied into knots as it is. I'm anxious to see >how other indexers handle this problem. Kevin (and Judy who asked the original question), I use Macrex's group mode (I'm sure that Cindex has something similar) to check for consistency in double-posting. In other words, I tell Macrex to display all entries for a given string that would be common to both entries. For those cases where there is no common string, I tell Macrex to display all entries on a given page. Usually, I'm familiar enough with the index I'm working on to tell which types of entries I've been double-posting (or should be) to know which entries to check. However, like you, I avoid "classification" when I can and use a general cross-reference where there are too many potential target entries to list them individually. However, there is a caveat to this... > > >Much of what I feel about this area stems from my convictions about the >natural language approach to information retrieval, which says people pretty >much look things up as they speak them; thus if they want to know about FHA >mortgages they go look in the F's, not under mortgages. And here's the caveat. People don't always know the modifying terms to a concept or specific types of things and thus cannot always be expected to retrieve concepts in natural language order. This is especially true of texts where technical or scientific concepts are popularized for the general public. For example, the non-techie may not know that a specific type of modulation is pulse code modulation but know that they don't want amplitude or frequency modulation. Believe me, I just finished indexing a book on Monday setting forth such concepts for non-technical types and have done quite a few of those types of books. So there is something to said for classification, as long as it is done in conjunction with double-posting (as you said) to serve those readers who already know enough about the subject to look up "pulse code modulation". I don't have any problem with using subsubentries resulting from classification when space (and the publisher) permits. If they'll get the reader to exactly where they want to go on the first drop--my major objective in indexing--I say full steam ahead. ;-D Having said that, I'm sure you're now expecting me to say that I double-posted these entries. Space for the index didn't permit that, so I had to go for a general cross-reference to specific types of modulation (in this example), but fortunately there was a section that listed all types of modulation discussed in the book so I could point readers to it. (Just as you suggested in a section of your message that I snipped.) The real nightmare is when space is tight and there isn't a nice section listing all flavors of a concept together and the variants are scattered throughout the book where they can't be included in a single page range! The bottom line to all of this, IMHO, is taking one's audience into consideration. If the text is so scholarly or technical that its readers are quite likely to know enough about the subject to use natural language order, then classification is not really necessary (though I'd still use a general cross-reference). But works that attempt to explain technical concepts to general audiences require extensive double posting and even classification when necessary. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-25 13:56:19 EDT, Judy wrote: >Another question: I capitalized the first letter of all my main entries. If >I put a see reference to another main entry do I have to capitalize it or can >I put it in lower case? Judy, See also my post in response to Kevin's excellent answer to your other questions. If your main entries have an initial cap, so should your targets to your cross references. If you're using dedicated indexing software and set it up to automatically capitalize the initial letters of your main entries, it should take care of your targets automatically. >Another question: A publisher stated that they pay fifty cents per entry >which usually works out to $1.00- $1.50 per page. Does this mean they want >sparse indexing? What do you think of this? >Judy That fifty cents per entry rate (low as it is) does not necessarily mean that the publisher is looking for a "light" index. I recently worked on a rather advanced book where 50 cents per entry came to average $5-6/page. Now, if your text is demanding only two to three entries per page, 50 cents per entry is not an acceptable rate of pay. One publisher tried 65 cents per entry with a maximum of three entries per page with me and I said, no way. (Yes, I got them up to a reasonable per *page* rate without the maximum entries per page and they're a very good client. Their projects are financially worthwhile and they get a much better product without the maximum entries per page limitation.) I recommend finding out from the publisher what type of book it is and approximately how many pages it is so that you can determine whether 50 cents per entry is acceptable. Always remember that there is a certain minimal amount of administrative overhead involved in indexing a book, no matter how small or how easy it is to do the index. By "minimal", I mean a fixed minimum associated with indexing every book, not as in "small" necessarily. There is the time spent on phone calls, file management, preparation for delivery, etc., all devoted to that specific book. So, we're not even talking about the other costs of running a business that should be accounted for in your rates. This is why it is good to set a minimum flat fee for working on any book (at least in *your* mind). Determining how much you need to make per day or per week, and not only break-even but make a profit, helps in establishing this minimum fee. (Remember, freelance indexing *is* a business and businesses *must* make a profit to survive in the long term.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Index style; fees In-Reply-To: <199510251731.KAA06160@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Wed, 25 Oct 1995 Prindex@aol.com wrote: > I am indexing a book on real estate. I have a main entry Mortgages and > subentries listing the different types of mortgages. Most, but not all of > the subentry citations are found in the chapter on mortgages. My question is > should I put separate entries under FHA, balloon, adjustable-rate, etc., etc. > also? Normally, I would put mortgages without the subentries and then list > each one separately as a main heading but I thought that in this circumstance > the readers (a book for agents) would know to look under mortgages. Do I > need to have them listed in both places? In the interests of thoroughness, I would usually have both a subentry under mortgages and a separate main entry for each type of mortgage. > Another question: I capitalized the first letter of all my main entries. If > I put a see reference to another main entry do I have to capitalize it or can > I put it in lower case? For accuracy's sake, yes, I would capitalize the "see" and "see also" references...make them identical to the main heading they reference. > Another question: A publisher stated that they pay fifty cents per entry > which usually works out to $1.00- $1.50 per page. Does this mean they want > sparse indexing? What do you think of this? I think they expect a great index for a lousy price. It would be virtually impossible to index most books I've worked on at the rate of only two or three entries per page. Either you have to do a really poor job, or you have to work for peanuts. Neither is an attractive option. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 13:31 25/10/95 ECT, Judy wrote: >I am indexing a book on real estate. I have a main entry Mortgages and >subentries listing the different types of mortgages. Most, but not all of >the subentry citations are found in the chapter on mortgages. My question is >should I put separate entries under FHA, balloon, adjustable-rate, etc., etc. >also? This depends on how long the Mortgage chapter is, but assuming it's browsable (say 30 pages) I would say that you should include subentries for items mentioned outside the main mortgage chapter, plus page numbers in the mortgage chapter for those subentries. Any type of mortgage mentioned within that chapter and nowhere else could be omitted. E.g. Mortgages 194-227 balloon 76, 205 FHA 312 but not adjustable-rate 201-204 However, I know others differ on this. >I capitalized the first letter of all my main entries. Any special reason? Normally lower-case initials make proper nouns easier to find. They also avoid the problem below: >If I put a see reference to another main entry do I have to capitalize it or can I put it in lower case? >Another question: A publisher stated that they pay fifty cents per entry >which usually works out to $1.00- $1.50 per page. Does this mean they want >sparse indexing? What do you think of this? This is fairly low. I usually work on a basis of $AUS 3.50 per page. You should clarify if they are talking about payment per heading or per locator (page number), and if the latter, how they would rate a page range. Three entries per page is fairly usual, but three locators per page would be a sparse index. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:44:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Index style; fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I am indexing a book on real estate. I have a main entry Mortgages and >subentries listing the different types of mortgages. Most, but not all of >the subentry citations are found in the chapter on mortgages. My question is >should I put separate entries under FHA, balloon, adjustable-rate, etc., etc. >also? Normally, I would put mortgages without the subentries and then list >each one separately as a main heading but I thought that in this circumstance >the readers (a book for agents) would know to look under mortgages. Do I >need to have them listed in both places? > One of the hats I wear is that of real estate broker and as a broker, I would want to see separate headings for FHA,Balloons,Adjustable rate Mortgages,etc. The differences between the types of mortgages, and the requirements for each,are large enough that I think they deserve their own headings as well as a subentry under mortgages. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:48:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hetinchu@hornet.liunet.edu Subject: Contact information about LIU-Palmer ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hello, I am trying to find out the contact information about the company which develops the thesaurus software -- LIU-Palmer. Obviously they moved because the telephone number (310-390-4884) and fax number (310-390-9270) I have are out of service. Please send a message directly to me (as I am not on the list at the moment) if any of you knows about LIU-Palmer's new location. Thank you very much in advance for your help. = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - Heting Chu Plamer School of Library & Information Science Long Island University/C.W. Post Campus 720 Northern Blvd. Brookville, NY 11548 Tel: (516) 299-2177 Fax: (516) 299-4168 = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:48:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SeIndex@aol.com Subject: Scanning Documents for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Does anyone scan their printed final page proofs in order to have electronic text available? This would allow the indexer to make use of the word processor's find/search utilities and also to tag/mark specific areas/words, in order to ensure the thoroughness of your work or maybe just as a backup/verification. Without taking into consideration whether this is economically feasible (I realize that scanning can get expensive), I'm curious as to whether this would be just a "cool" tool or truely valuable and useable on a regular basis. Thanks in advance, Sue Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:18:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@aol.com Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-26 12:07:05 EDT, Sue Evans wrote: >> Does anyone scan their printed final page proofs in order to have electronic text available? << What astounds me about this question is that it is a reflection of the state of affairs in the publishing world. I am amazed at the number ofpublishers which still require index submitted by hard copy only -- so tht it can be re-typed for the typesetter. It simply should not be necessary to scan the page proofs in order to obtain a word processor file! >> Without taking into consideration whether this is economically feasible (I realize that scanning can get expensive), << I do not find scanning to be particularly expensive. I purchased a black/white HP3p very cheaply as this model has been discontinued in favor of the color version. I prefer HP scanners because I find the support software to be better able to deal with a wide variety of source material. I upgraded the included software to the Omnipage Professional, a package I prefer because of the ability to train it to recognize unusual typefaces. I find that once the first couple of pages are done, the rest flow smoothly with virtually no errors and the majority of the few errorsare caught by the spell checker. I have scanned in a number of indexes from books published before the computer age (or which were re-typed for typesetting) and found the process both quick & easy and profitable. Getting these indexes into Macrex was a breeze! Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:19:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-26 12:07:05 EDT, you write: >Does anyone scan their printed final page proofs in order to have electronic >text available? This would allow the indexer to make use of the word >processor's find/search utilities and also to tag/mark specific areas/words, >in order to ensure the thoroughness of your work or maybe just as a >backup/verification. Most scanning software I have used is more trouble than it is worth - you have to clean up the scanning mistakes and errors. To me, it's faster to just index it. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 16:20:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard S. Day" Subject: Re: Only one subentry? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On 26 October Jonathan Jermey wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > At 14:09 24/10/95 ECT, Angela Howard wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > > > >Here's my situation: I want to put in an index entry for > >"Large model", which is a specific setting in a configuration > >file. There really is only one situation where it is ever used > >in the software, but to have an entry just called "Large model" > >seems real vague to me. What I want to do is: > > Large model > > in configuration file, 27 > > > >I feel that would give them some context when they're looking it up > >in the index, but it seems strange to have an entry with only one > >subentry. I suppose I could do: > > Large model in configuration file, 27 > > > >but I think the line would be too long, causing it to wrap around > >and look ugly in the index. Ideas anyone? > > These are two different issues. Whether the long line 'looks ugly' is > secondary. To many people including myself an index entry with a single > subheading also 'looks ugly'. Others don't care either way. > > The main thing is to convey the meaning, which is best done by the single > line entry. Perhaps it could be abbreviated to > 'Large model configuration'? I am not a professional indexer, but I am a software developer who is also interested in indexing. Please accept my comments with that caveat in mind. Jonathan is correct that conveying the meaning should be the key issue. For most software, the configuration file is critical to the behaviour of the software. I cannot judge from the post, what "large model" may mean, but it is quite likely important, even if it is only mentioned once in the manual. Thus, my inclination would be to reference it both as: Large model in configuration file, 27 and as Configuration file, large model in, 27 Whether the entries should be on one or two lines is a matter of aesthetics; in the same vein, consideration might be given to abbreviating "configuration file" as "config. file" which would be readily understood by most users, I think. As an aside: most software manuals are poorly written and equally poorly indexed. The writing is probably due to the "rush to market" pressure felt by developers; the indexing likely a combination of that same rush and the difficulty of understanding what is important in the (poorly written) content. In an ideal world, indexers should be able to discuss the question of what to include with the software developers' focus groups (the people many developers use to test the software). In my experience, the focus group participants are often the only ones who are able to both understand the software and communicate reasonably clearly, what is important about the software. Just my two cents worth... Ric Day MBF Systems Corp. ricday@mbfw451.mlnet.com RicDay@msn.com CI$: 70521,2167 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:50:43 ECT Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Scanning documents for indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Although I wouldn't think of scanning my page proofs (at least not until the procedure is much faster than it is now) I do find it useful to have the text of the book I'm indexing on disk (if it's available) so that I can pick up references to topics which I've failed to index in the early part of the book because they seemed trivial, and which suddenly become important half way through the index. All too often I realise that in fact these previous references *were* too trivial to index anyway, but it's reassuring to be able to locate them and dismiss them. There are problems associated with having the text on disk, though. One is that you can be tempted to look for all the references to a particular topic and waste time sorting out the `indexable' references from the passing references, and the other is that, having found your indexable reference, you may spend ages locating the page number (which you have to do by finding the nearest indexed topic - unless you've spent time putting hard page breaks at the end of each page of the text). Something else that I have very occasionally done is to put the whole text line by line into MACREX (using a utility which puts a code at the beginning of each line) and make the index below the text in the same file, giving each entry a provisional number. These provisional numbers can be converted with a macro to the final page numbers when they are known. Drusilla Calvert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:50:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Sent using PMDF-822 V3.1, routing is done by HEARNV From: "RUDI BOER, LIBRARY KNAW" Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > What astounds me about this question is that it is a reflection of the state > of affairs in the publishing world. I am amazed at the number ofpublishers > which still require index submitted by hard copy only -- so tht it can be > re-typed for the typesetter. It simply should not be necessary to scan the > page proofs in order to obtain a word processor file! I agree, I think that most books, articles and so on, are already available in an electronic form. I think every author uses some kind of computer to write. So do not scan the page proofs, ask for the electronic form. > I do not find scanning to be particularly expensive. I purchased a > black/white HP3p very cheaply as this model has been discontinued in favor of > the color version. I prefer HP scanners because I find the support software > to be better able to deal with a wide variety of source material. I upgraded > the included software to the Omnipage Professional, a package I prefer > because of the ability to train it to recognize unusual typefaces. I find > that once the first couple of pages are done, the rest flow smoothly with > virtually no errors and the majority of the few errorsare caught by the spell > checker. We also have some good experiences with the combination of a HP-scanner and OmniPage. The quality of the OCR depends on the quality of the printed pages. If you have the information available in electronic form, the computer can assist you by making the index. In can reduce the time used for indexing at least by 80 %. Rudi Boer Library KNAW The Netherlands ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:13:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from NEMOMUS Subject: Re[2]: Scanning Documents for Indexing Jan CW is right--its more trouble that its worth. I have the benefit of being the copy/production editor of the Sixteenth Century Journal. I also index it. I have the formatted electronic copy of the journal just as it was sent to the printer--residing on the same computer on which I use Cindex (Mac with SoftPC). I am just now preparing the annual index for the journal. I have referred to the disk copy only twice--both times to see if some small glitches were the fault of our program or dirt on the cameras of the printing company. I haven't used the electronic version to help in indexing; it's simpler just to flip through the print copy than to open the open the files (taking care not to alter the page nos. in any way). This is one of those things that *sounds* like a good idea, but really isn't. ________________________________________________________________ Paula Presley FAX 816-785-4181 VOICE 816-785-4525 Associate Editor, Thomas Jefferson University Press Northeast Missouri State Univ. (Truman State University July 96) McClain Hall 111-L, 100 E. Normal St., Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 Internet: ppresley%nemomus@nemostate.edu ________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ Paula Presley FAX 816-785-4181 VOICE 816-785-4525 Associate Editor, Thomas Jefferson University Press Northeast Missouri State Univ. (Truman State University July 96) McClain Hall 111-L, 100 E. Normal St., Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 Internet: ppresley%nemomus@nemostate.edu ________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:14:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Does anyone scan their printed final page proofs in order to have electronic >text available? This would allow the indexer to make use of the word >processor's find/search utilities and also to tag/mark specific areas/words, >in order to ensure the thoroughness of your work or maybe just as a >backup/verification. This might be an excellent approach except for the current state of OCR (optical character recognition) software. Depending on the quality and characteristics of the copy and the type face used, you can experience error rates of 5% or sometimes higher in converting the scanned image to text. (Proportional spacing is especially problematic.) Imagine an entire book in which one out of every 20 letters is wrong. Proofing and correcting your text before beginning to index would eat up more time than would be saved by using the word search features. Considering applications other than indexing, if text absolutely MUST be computer-readable, there are situations where scanning saves time. If I have text in a monospaced typewriter-like font of at least 10-point size, my scanner and OCR software does pretty well -- 1% error rate or so. If I need only a handful of pages scanned, proofing and correcting text with this low error rate is faster than keying from scratch. Unfortunately, few if any books are published in 10-point monospaced serif typefaces. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota * This space available: $1 per line per week. We reserve the right * * to deprecate all submissions. No warranty expressed or implied. * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 13:14:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Only one subentry? ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-10-26 19:59:49 EDT, Ric wrote: >As an aside: most software manuals are poorly written and equally poorly >indexed. The writing is probably due to the "rush to market" pressure felt >by developers; the indexing likely a combination of that same rush and the >difficulty of understanding what is important in the (poorly written) >content. Ric, Your input here is worth a lot more than just $.02! As a case in point regarding why some software manuals are poorly written and indexed, I found myself asking a software company today just why do they want me to index a manual while it is still being written! To make matters worse, it is to be an embedded index, so the files would surely be out of sync between us. Stay tuned for the answer, if any. The person I spoke with told me that she would have to get back to me because she didn't know. ;-D Angela (who started this thread), I agree that rollover lines are ugly, but sometimes they can't be avoided--especially when the indexer has to go to three columns across to make it fit in the allotted space. Just the other day, I delivered an index to a book containing a horrendous alphabet soup of acronyms with interminable spell-outs. It was not a pretty sight. So it went... (to the tune of "Ten Fleas in a Bed")... They all rolled over, locators fell out... The entries said... Roll over. Roll over. Went down a point to make them fit and acronyms still said... Roll over! Roll over! Index won't fit, let's go three across... The entries said... Roll over!! Roll over!! Index now fits, but is as ugly as sin... The entries said... Roll over!!! Roll over!!!! Uploading the file at 12am, the indexer said, "Good night!" With hundreds of people now cursing me because that little tune will be running incessantly through their minds all day, I return to indexing a chapter on cyclic nucleotide phosphodiesterases... Roll over, roll over!! ;-D Lynn ****************************************************************************** ************** Lynn Moncrief ASI Web page: http://www.well.com/user/ASI/ TECHindex & Docs Tustin, CA "I admire gall!"--Worf of "Star Trek: The Next Generation" ****************************************************************************** ************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:19:05 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing In-Reply-To: <199510261608.JAA01769@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I can't even begin to imagine the cost of scanning, say, 800 pages of text JUST to be able to use a search-and-replace function to check on entries. Yes, it would be very nice to have that capability, and no, I'm not going to pay for it. And neither, I suspect, are most publishers. I've been blessed with a somewhat "photographic" memory, in that I can visualize book pages and usually am able to find terms or sections I wish I had indexed...after I've passed that point in the book. Admittedly, this is not 100% foolproof, which is why I generally scan the entire book (via eyeball) if I'm really serious about finding a particular phrase or term. I also operate on the "more is better" principle, and edit out useless entries at the end of the job. That way. I get every possible thing into the index rather than wasting time hunting down missing terms midway through the book, when I decide belatedly that "X" should have been indexed all along. It also helps to scan the book quickly before picking up the marking pen the first time, to familiarize yourself with the contents, organization, pet phrases the author uses, nonstandard terms, etc. If you know, for instance, that "The War of the Rebellion" is used consistently as an identifier, and NOT the standard term, "The Civil War," you'll automatically pick up that phrase and use it as the main entry with a "See" reference at Civil War. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 15:19:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Scanning Documents for Indexing In-Reply-To: <199510262347.QAA19872@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > What astounds me about this question is that it is a reflection of the state > of affairs in the publishing world. I am amazed at the number ofpublishers > which still require index submitted by hard copy only -- so tht it can be > re-typed for the typesetter. It simply should not be necessary to scan the > page proofs in order to obtain a word processor file! I agree, Gale. Many publishers now ask me if I want the book on disk as well as on paper. I take the disks, but rarely seem to need to use them. > I do not find scanning to be particularly expensive. I purchased a > black/white HP3p very cheaply as this model has been discontinued in favor of > the color version. I prefer HP scanners because I find the support software > to be better able to deal with a wide variety of source material. I upgraded > the included software to the Omnipage Professional, a package I prefer > because of the ability to train it to recognize unusual typefaces. I find > that once the first couple of pages are done, the rest flow smoothly with > virtually no errors and the majority of the few errorsare caught by the spell > checker. But what do you DO with all that nice scanned text, once you have it? Maybe if I understood better about the uses of scanned text (i.e., are you checking for possible missing page numbers or entries?), I would know whether or not this option is important to consider. Also, what is "inexpensive" in the context of scanner prices? I've seen them for under $400, which is not inexpensive to me. Also, many of my books come on 11 x 17 pages, which would mean either cutting the proofs up by hand or some other work-around. Doing this for 500-1000 pages seems terribly time-consuming, unless I am gaining a very great advantage. > I have scanned in a number of indexes from books published before the > computer age (or which were re-typed for typesetting) and found the process > both quick & easy and profitable. Getting these indexes into Macrex was a > breeze! Now, THIS makes sense, if the index is still useful and your job is a simple revision. I've done the same, with indexes on disk (but not involving scanning). But I don't generally get into straight revisions; I find that most of the time, a "revision" really needs to be a whole new index--which I prefer to create from scratch. =Sonsie=