From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 9-AUG-1996 07:39:23.92 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9607A" Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 07:39:07 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9607A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 15:26:07 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: lack of mail Is anyone getting mail from the server? I haven't had any messages this week and was wondering if the list is down. I don't mean to be paranoid but other messages are getting through to me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 1996 08:19:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ebron, Christine" Subject: headings for numbers and special characters Hi Everyone I am compiling an index that contains several entries that start with either a number or a special character. We typically format our indexes so that there is a big letter at the beginning of each section of entries (A, B, C, etc.). I want to put a heading above the entries with the numbers and special characters, but am not sure how to address this. Here is one idea that someone suggested: Special Characters ### 10 ??? 138, 199 Numbers 24 month report 150 3-D bar 220 Your suggestions and comments are appreciated! Thanks, Christine Ebron christine.ebron@cognos.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:44:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Yvette Scheven Please add me to your list. I was on it, and quite abruptly, about ten days ago, there were no messages from indexers. That seems highly unlikely, so I'd like to re-subscribe. Thanks! yvette ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:59:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: (humor) Strange index entry In the process of indexing _Electronic Publishing on CD-ROM_ by Marc Ewing (published by O'Reilly & Associates), I was greatly amused when I discovered this entry was queried by a proofreader: father. See electroplating It still makes me laugh, but that's the entry as it should be. The book will be out next month, with this entry in it. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com seth@ora.com WWW: http://jasper.ora.com:80/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:41:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chrys Wu Subject: Cataloguer Jobs in Los Angeles SURVIVORS OF THE SHOAH VISUAL HISTORY FOUNDATION JOB DESCRIPTION POSITION: CATALOGUER Survivors of the Shoah Visual History Foundation is a nonprofit organization dedicated to videotaping and archiving interviews of Holocaust survivors all over the world. Working with the world s leading Holocaust museums, educators, archivists, documentary filmmakers and with Holocaust survivors, the Foundation is compiling the most comprehensive library of firsthand survivor testimonies ever assembled. The archive will be used as a tool for global education about the Holocaust and to teach racial, ethnic and cultural tolerance. The Cataloguing Department is responsible for indexing the content of the testimonies so that the information can be easily retrieved. We are currently seeking full time Cataloguers for both the day and night shifts. Positions include salary and benefits. RESPONSIBILITIES: * Index videotaped Holocaust survivor testimonies according to guidelines developed by the Foundation s historical team - View testimony - Divide testimony into coherent segments - Write brief description (notes) of each segment - Assign index terms (keywords) from a thesaurus of Holocaust terminology - Propose new keywords * Write summaries of testimonies * Conduct research on specific keyword questions * Provide feedback on the work of the interviewer and videographer * Participate in training new Cataloguers * Work on special projects as called upon by the Foundation s historical team and Cataloguing Manager QUALIFICATIONS: REQUIRED: * Undergraduate degree or equivalent background or experience in European history or Judaic Studies with coursework in Holocaust history * Excellent writing and research skills * Detail-oriented * Ability to work at a production pace * Ability to follow direction * Ability to give and take constructive criticism * Ability to function consistently in an objective and rational manner * Ability to work well independently as well as being a cohesive team member * Ability to suggest solutions to problems * Familiarity with relevant geographic names * Macintosh experience * Ability to process disturbing Holocaust-related material * Willingness to make an extraordinary time commitment to the project PREFERRED: * Fluency (oral and written) in English and at least one of the following languages: Most needed: Hebrew, French, Dutch, German, Spanish, Russian, Yiddish, Hungarian, Czech, Polish, Romanian, Slovak, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Greek. Also needed: Latvian, Serbo-Croatian, Portuguese, Ladino, Italian, Sign * Library Science background and cataloguing or indexing experience * Familiarity with relevant foreign cultures and mentalities To Apply please send cover letter and resume to: Human Resource Manager, PO Box 3168, Los Angeles, CA 90078-3168, Fax (818) 866-0312 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:59:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara J. Stroup" SHORThdr ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara J. Stroup" CONFIRM INDEX-L Barbara Stroup ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 06:11:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WMacallen@AOL.COM Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 29 Jun 1... I just attended the SLA Conference in Boston the first week of June, 1996. Bowker had a booth at the Conference and was selling most of the reference titles--including the Literary Market Place. I was able to pick up a 1996 edition for $84.00 (about). It seemed as though the 1996 edition would work as well as the upcoming 1997 edition. I was told that the 1997 edition will be coming out in September on CD Rom--but I don't know what the cost will be. If you are interested in having a 1996 edition at home, you should try to contact Bowker to see if they have any 1996 editions left for half price. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service WMAcallen@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 01:41:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: names I was a bit hasty in posting my first inquiry. I found more names! The text provides little help. I have consulted Nancy Mulvaney's book and contacted my local library for help, but if anyone can give me guidance on making entries for the following names I would appreciate it! In most cases, the prefixes are throwing me off...not sure what they mean or where the *real* last name begins! Rather than just guess, I thought I'd call on the experts! R. Moses Ha-Darshan K. van der Toorn William von Soden Ibn Gabirol Yitzhak Dov Gilat Ben-Zion Schereschewsky Thanks! Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Newsletter about copyright for freelancers' work (fwd) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:57:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Neva J. Smith To: Indexer's@bga.com Cc: INDEX-L%BINGVMB.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu Subject: Newsletter about copyright for freelancers' work The newsletter below discusses contracts used by writers and publishers and their provisions for electronic rights, royalties, etc. The target audience is the freelance writers' community. Indexers are writers and I think we should keep up with the contract activities of this group. The work made for hire issue is also discussed. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 28 Jun 96 08:44:57 EDT From: Alexandra Owens/ASJA <75227.1650@CompuServe.COM> To: ASJACW-LIST@SILVERQUICK.COM Subject: CW960628 ASJA CONTRACTS WATCH CW960628 Issued June 28, 1996 [The American Society of Journalists and Authors encourages reproduction and distribution of this document for the benefit of freelance writers. Reprint or post as many items as you wish, but please credit ASJA for the information and don't change the content.] ***** Despite a history of insisting on the contrary (and losing some writers in the process), CONDE NAST, it seems, can accept the important principle of separate compensation for electronic rights. Persistent negotiating has given one writer a BRIDE'S agreement in which the fee is allocated "$X for print rights, $Y for electronic rights." The e-rights clause itself remains far too broad, but the division of the fee is a small but significant concession from one of the most aggressively hardline publishers. Persistence has also brought about further improvement at another publishing giant, HACHETTE FILIPACCHI. The company has long agreed to an extra fee for e-rights for authors who require it. Its HOME magazine has been willing to accept limited rights for the fee but the group's largest title, WOMAN'S DAY, has insisted on all formats for all time. Now, WD has agreed for at least one writer that the e-rights supplement will cover only America Online, and only for a year. At GRUNER + JAHR, confusion reigns--again--as the company apparently can't make up its corporate mind whether to bully writers or not. Various editors at PARENTS and McCALL'S have been telling contributors that until a new contract form is released, they absolutely must have free e-rights, although they typically offer to lower the time period from three years to one year. But the editors-in-chief of both magazines tell ASJA Contracts Watch that isn't so. The company still isn't ready to pay for new-media reuses, as some key competitors now do, but according to these top editors, at least, they will still--reluctantly--cross out the nefarious e-rights clause. It isn't all e-rights: All three publishers commonly accept important amendments in several other clauses in their contract offer. Freelancers doing business with any CN, Hachette or G + J magazines may request information about those changes from ASJA. ***** Following discussions with ASJA, the new owner of MS., WORKING MOTHER and WORKING WOMAN this week pledged to introduce a new contract that pays extra for all secondary uses of freelance material, including electronic. But to those owed money for works delivered to the magazines' old owner he makes no promises at all. Jay MacDonald stepped into something of a hornet's nest when, just weeks ago, his spanking new MACDONALD COMMUNICATIONS CORP. bought the three magazines from the long-ailing LANG COMMUNICATIONS. The buzzing came from freelance contributors and staffers left holding Lang IOUs; now, as writers and some organizations step up activity, the buzzing is turning into stinging. Several writers lately have won court judgments against Lang, but collecting may be another story. Yesterday, however, having failed to extract a payment from Lang, a writer sued MacDonald in New York City small claims court. Earlier this month, MacDonald memoed staffers that they could make claims against Lang for "all accrued fringe benefits or pay to which each of you perceives herself or himself to be entitled." He also told the New York Times that the legal obligation for Lang's debts to freelancers remains with Lang. Presumably, courts will decide. In a gesture to writers, photographers and illustrators, MacDonald told ASJA: "We will have a new contract with the creative community that ensures separate compensation over and above one-time print use in whatever aftermarket a contribution is used, including other media we plan to develop." To the question of making good on Lang's debts to freelancers, whether for work published or for pieces in inventory, he would say only, "We're working on it." ASJA President Claire Safran, who has written to MacDonald of the "ethical obligations" to contributors, said yesterday, "We applaud the promise to do the right thing in contracts for future work, and hope these magazines get back on their feet so that freelancers will again be comfortable doing business with them. But we have to wonder how much faith to put in this company while contributors continue to wait for money owed them." ***** The threat of work made for hire has been beaten back in radioland. Late last year, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO told independent writer-producers that it would insist on total ownership of their work because, a spokesman said, "That's what we need to do." Apparently, the need evaporated when the independents said "No way." After months of meetings with a coalition of independents, during which NPR chief operatin officer Peter Jablow himself replaced the in-house lawyer, the sides have tossed out work-made-for-hire. Their agreement, just signed, calls for negotiated fees for rebroadcasts and royalties for sales of tapes and transcripts. Most important, it declares that revenues from electronic and other ancillary uses should be shared. The agreement calls for an 18-month grace period, during which NPR will pay no royalties for new-media use of freelance material while it develops a tracking system. Compensation will be negotiated after the end of 1997 or when NPR's new-media gross reaches $1,250,000. In the meantime, NPR has pledged to "use reasonable efforts to track revenues" from new-media uses and issue individual reports every six months. "NPR is so close to the edge these days," said one independent, "that we're willing to pitch in to help. If this weren't the non-profit world we never would have made the concession on the grace period." Said Jablow: "We are committed to developing a win-win association when it comes to distributing NPR programming via non-broadcast means." ***** A freelancer caught VEGETARIAN TIMES (COWLES) putting a work into electronic databases, despite a contract that didn't allow it. The writer confronted the publisher, which pulled the piece and eventually offered $700. The writer accepted. Then came a release form with a shut-your-mouth clause, asking the writer to say she hadn't and wouldn't talk. "I can't sign it," she told Cowles. "I've already discussed every step of the the settlement with ASJA." "OK," the publisher agreed. "Just say you won't talk about it any more." And so this report can't give the end of the story. ***** Many ASJA members and others send a steady stream of contracts, information and scuttlebutt so that these ASJA Contracts Watch dispatches can be as informative as possible. Thanks to all. To receive each edition of ASJA Contracts Watch automatically (and at no charge) by e-mail, send the following Internet message: To: ASJA-MANAGER@SILVERQUICK.COM Text: JOIN ASJACW-LIST Only occasional official dispatches: no feedback, no flooded mailbox. Inquiries and information from all are welcome. Contracts Committee, ASJA 1501 Broadway, New York, NY 10036 tel 212-997-0947 fax 212-768-7414 e-mail 75227.1650@compuserve.com Web page http://www.asja.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Newsletter about copyright for freelancers' work The newsletter below discusses contracts used by writers and publishers and their provisions for electronic rights, royalties, etc. The target audience is the freelance writers' community. Indexers are writers and I think we should keep up with the contract activities of this group. The work made for hire issue is also discussed. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 28 Jun 96 08:44:57 EDT From: Alexandra Owens/ASJA <75227.1650@CompuServe.COM> To: ASJACW-LIST@SILVERQUICK.COM Subject: CW960628 ASJA CONTRACTS WATCH CW960628 Issued June 28, 1996 [The American Society of Journalists and Authors encourages reproduction and distribution of this document for the benefit of freelance writers. Reprint or post as many items as you wish, but please credit ASJA for the information and don't change the content.] ***** Despite a history of insisting on the contrary (and losing some writers in the process), CONDE NAST, it seems, can accept the important principle of separate compensation for electronic rights. Persistent negotiating has given one writer a BRIDE'S agreement in which the fee is allocated "$X for print rights, $Y for electronic rights." The e-rights clause itself remains far too broad, but the division of the fee is a small but significant concession from one of the most aggressively hardline publishers. Persistence has also brought about further improvement at another publishing giant, HACHETTE FILIPACCHI. The company has long agreed to an extra fee for e-rights for authors who require it. Its HOME magazine has been willing to accept limited rights for the fee but the group's largest title, WOMAN'S DAY, has insisted on all formats for all time. Now, WD has agreed for at least one writer that the e-rights supplement will cover only America Online, and only for a year. At GRUNER + JAHR, confusion reigns--again--as the company apparently can't make up its corporate mind whether to bully writers or not. Various editors at PARENTS and McCALL'S have been telling contributors that until a new contract form is released, they absolutely must have free e-rights, although they typically offer to lower the time period from three years to one year. But the editors-in-chief of both magazines tell ASJA Contracts Watch that isn't so. The company still isn't ready to pay for new-media reuses, as some key competitors now do, but according to these top editors, at least, they will still--reluctantly--cross out the nefarious e-rights clause. It isn't all e-rights: All three publishers commonly accept important amendments in several other clauses in their contract offer. Freelancers doing business with any CN, Hachette or G + J magazines may request information about those changes from ASJA. ***** Following discussions with ASJA, the new owner of MS., WORKING MOTHER and WORKING WOMAN this week pledged to introduce a new contract that pays extra for all secondary uses of freelance material, including electronic. But to those owed money for works delivered to the magazines' old owner he makes no promises at all. Jay MacDonald stepped into something of a hornet's nest when, just weeks ago, his spanking new MACDONALD COMMUNICATIONS CORP. bought the three magazines from the long-ailing LANG COMMUNICATIONS. The buzzing came from freelance contributors and staffers left holding Lang IOUs; now, as writers and some organizations step up activity, the buzzing is turning into stinging. Several writers lately have won court judgments against Lang, but collecting may be another story. Yesterday, however, having failed to extract a payment from Lang, a writer sued MacDonald in New York City small claims court. Earlier this month, MacDonald memoed staffers that they could make claims against Lang for "all accrued fringe benefits or pay to which each of you perceives herself or himself to be entitled." He also told the New York Times that the legal obligation for Lang's debts to freelancers remains with Lang. Presumably, courts will decide. In a gesture to writers, photographers and illustrators, MacDonald told ASJA: "We will have a new contract with the creative community that ensures separate compensation over and above one-time print use in whatever aftermarket a contribution is used, including other media we plan to develop." To the question of making good on Lang's debts to freelancers, whether for work published or for pieces in inventory, he would say only, "We're working on it." ASJA President Claire Safran, who has written to MacDonald of the "ethical obligations" to contributors, said yesterday, "We applaud the promise to do the right thing in contracts for future work, and hope these magazines get back on their feet so that freelancers will again be comfortable doing business with them. But we have to wonder how much faith to put in this company while contributors continue to wait for money owed them." ***** The threat of work made for hire has been beaten back in radioland. Late last year, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO told independent writer-producers that it would insist on total ownership of their work because, a spokesman said, "That's what we need to do." Apparently, the need evaporated when the independents said "No way." After months of meetings with a coalition of independents, during which NPR chief operatin officer Peter Jablow himself replaced the in-house lawyer, the sides have tossed out work-made-for-hire. Their agreement, just signed, calls for negotiated fees for rebroadcasts and royalties for sales of tapes and transcripts. Most important, it declares that revenues from electronic and other ancillary uses should be shared. The agreement calls for an 18-month grace period, during which NPR will pay no royalties for new-media use of freelance material while it develops a tracking system. Compensation will be negotiated after the end of 1997 or when NPR's new-media gross reaches $1,250,000. In the meantime, NPR has pledged to "use reasonable efforts to track revenues" from new-media uses and issue individual reports every six months. "NPR is so close to the edge these days," said one independent, "that we're willing to pitch in to help. If this weren't the non-profit world we never would have made the concession on the grace period." Said Jablow: "We are committed to developing a win-win association when it comes to distributing NPR programming via non-broadcast means." ***** A freelancer caught VEGETARIAN TIMES (COWLES) putting a work into electronic databases, despite a contract that didn't allow it. The writer confronted the publisher, which pulled the piece and eventually offered $700. The writer accepted. Then came a release form with a shut-your-mouth clause, asking the writer to say she hadn't and wouldn't talk. "I can't sign it," she told Cowles. "I've already discussed every step of the the settlement with ASJA." "OK," the publisher agreed. "Just say you won't talk about it any more." And so this report can't give the end of the story. ***** Many ASJA members and others send a steady stream of contracts, information and scuttlebutt so that these ASJA Contracts Watch dispatches can be as informative as possible. Thanks to all. To receive each edition of ASJA Contracts Watch automatically (and at no charge) by e-mail, send the following Internet message: To: ASJA-MANAGER@SILVERQUICK.COM Text: JOIN ASJACW-LIST Only occasional official dispatches: no feedback, no flooded mailbox. Inquiries and information from all are welcome. Contracts Committee, ASJA 1501 Broadway, New York, NY 10036 tel 212-997-0947 fax 212-768-7414 e-mail 75227.1650@compuserve.com Web page http://www.asja.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 17:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: Thanks for the help Thanks to all of you for your help and thoughts about cookbook indexing, and various other matters. The cookbook is finished! (Though I may never eat again.) Your comments and suggestions certainly helped me think out the index in a different, better, way. I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. Thanks again. Diane Brenner ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:39:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: illness and horror story Hi everyone, Thanks for all the good wishes for my health. I'm much better, though I have laryngitis now, which sounds very funny. I ended up not calling my contact because there have numerous problems with book which I'd like to outline without details, and then ask: is this typical? Because if so, how do we all stay sane? (Remember I'm relatively new to all this.) Please tell me this isn't typical and I will really enjoy indexing some day. I agreed to do this book based on 450 pages with approx. 3 weeks from last pages. Then they said pages not ready, you'll have 2 weeks. Then they said pages not ready, you *might* have some pages Thurs or Friday (of last week), by Fed Ex and the deadline is still Wednesday (which gave me 5 days if I were lucky). Then I got 38 pages on Thursday, nothing on Fri or Sat, on Monday my contact says, oh, well, we didn't get the pages from DTP. I asked why she hadn't let me know not to expect any pages so I could have gone out and had a life. And the deadline is now Friday, and I might get half the pages Tues, and the rest on Wed., and can I still do the job? Meanwhile, I arranged to take vacation from work based on the Wed. deadline (I work weekends) so I could have gotten it in by then, and ended up on vacation with no index to work on which seriously displeased me. So I said, after discussions with Marilyn R (THANKS even though I didn't do what you said!), that I could try to finish by Friday noon but that I was no longer on vacation and wouldn't be able to spend as much time. But if there were to be a rush fee, I would try harder, but still couldn't guarantee a 450 page book in 3.5 days. So they said no rush fee but I could have till Monday noon. I said, ok, fine. And the next day was as sick as a Dutch elm. I spent the first two days quietly marking pages and napping, and it turned out to need only very light indexing, so I decided to try to pull it off, which I have done. BTW, this is the same company I told you of before who wanted me toFTP books and print my own pages at my own expense, which I refused to do. Two things, well 3, in favor of this company: the people I worked with are very nice, and don't like the way things go there, either. Next, they pay very promptly. And they gave me written credit in the first book I did for them and gave me a copy without asking. OK, 4 things. So anyway, I have had a bad week, but I keep thinking if I can work under these conditions I ought to be able to do well under good conditions. I'll be taking your advices about cover letters and cold calls. Is anyone willing to tell what you actually say when you make the cold calls? So, now I'm going to take a nap and try to get over this week. Thanks for listening! RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Traystman Organization: US Subject: USDA Class I am also considering enrolling in the USDA class and would be very interested in receiving the replies requested in the earler message entitled "Offline response request re:USDA class." Thank you davidt@undp.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 14:57:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: german names I have German name to enter in an author index and I'm not entirely sure of the correct way to do it. The name is written in the text like this: K. van der Toorn I'm entering it as: Toorn, K. van der Can anyone tell me if this is the proper way to handle a foreign name like this? Thanks, Jill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 19:06:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cold calling Janet writes: >How do others handle their marketing? Do a lot of you make cold calls and >find them effective? Maybe I just don't do my calls right! I've always used cold calls (or did when I was doing a lot of marketing). I did this on the advice of some experienced indexer, and my experience has born out her reasoning: About 2/3 of the publishers I called didn't use indexers at all. Therefore, if I had sent out a mailing to them, I would have wasted a whole lot of money that I didn't have (and then had to make the follow-up calls anyway). I hated cold calling, so I don't blame anyone who's trying to find a way around it! My solutions: I wrote myself a script and practiced it. I got my partner to literally hold my hand through the first about five calls, and debriefed after each one. It gets easier and easier. The hardest part was getting to the right person--I had some hilarious responses! But I just kept explaining to them that I was a freelance indexer offering my services to their company, and asking them to help me find the right person to talk to. And the most important thing to remember (either with cold calls or follow up calls or letters) is that you are NOT begging a favor from these people. You have something they need (desperately, in many cases, if you're a good indexer) and you're offering it to them. I made about 200 cold calls when I started my own business. I'm sure I had it easier than people just starting out, because I had been managing an indexing collective and so had a nice-looking resume, three years of experience and good references. Anyway, out of those 200 publishers, about 150 didn't use indexers; about 30 told me they might need one sometime maybe, and I might as well send my resume (I don't think I ever got work out of any of those); and THREE were very happy to have me call because they were really needing new indexers and yes please send my resume right away! And those three, along with an inherited client from my old job, were enough to start my full-time business. All three are steady clients 7 years later. I don't know what the moral of that may be--I guess that you have to do a lot of calls to get a few clients, but since you only need a few clients, that's okay! Best of luck, everybody! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 14:39:20 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: apologies..index-l operational again You no doubt noticed that index-l has been inactive this week. My fault. In the process of creating more disk space, I neglected to issue the "free index-l" command. I just did that and we are in business again. Happy July 4th ! Sorry about the delay. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: martin dowding r <11mdowdi@MACH1.WLU.CA> Subject: Re: german names In-Reply-To: <199607041836.OAA13304@mach1.wlu.ca> Actually, you probably have a Dutch name there, not German. "Van der" means "from the," and you have several options on how to address the indexing problem, one of which is ignoring the "van der," as is so often the case when Beethoven and other well known Germans are indexed. After having indexed a large number of Germanic names in books on war (and for different publishers) I've found it's best to ask the publisher what they prefer, and to see if your subject (or a name like it) has been indexed anywhere else. Try genealogical indexes for similar names. You can always resort to old ALA filing rules and the like, too. Personally, I prefer to use the "Van der" as the first part of the entry, but in some cases it is a question of how the person is/was known, if you can determine that. On Sun, 30 Jun 1996 Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: > I have German name to enter in an author index and I'm not entirely sure of > the correct way to do it. The name is written in the text like this: > > K. van der Toorn > > I'm entering it as: > > Toorn, K. van der > > Can anyone tell me if this is the proper way to handle a foreign name like > this? > > Thanks, > > Jill > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:12:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: REvans4@AOL.COM Subject: Re: german names From pp. 288-289 of Wellisch's "Indexing from A to Z", the following paraphrase: ...prefixed names of people who are or were citizens of, or lived and worked mainly in, an English-speaking country are invariably entered under the prefix. Example: Van Loon, Hendrik. Under the conventions of their native countries, however, the index entry is the main part of the name followed by the forename and the prefix. Example: Muhll, Peter von der. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 15:12:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: REvans4@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cold calling In a message dated 96-07-04 14:38:04 EDT, you write: << The hardest part was getting to the right person--I had some hilarious responses! >> Same here. I often got a receptionist or a switchboard operator who didn't even know what an index is. I used to start by asking to speak to the person who hires freelance indexers, but invariably the word "hire" prompted them to connect me to personnel. I now ask to speak to the production editor or the managing editor. FWIW, I haven't had any business from cold calls, but I still do them when things get slow. I keep a contact list of those who never use freelancers, those who might in the future, etc. I figure marketing is a lot like fishing: you may throw out a lot of different lures with varying degrees of success, and you never know what will work on a particular day, but it's dead certain you won't catch anything just sitting in the boat wondering where the fish are. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 03:16:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Raymond Subject: publisher copyright issues Hi, I'm new to this list. I have a question that I'm hoping someone knows the answer to. I'm a part-time indexer but a full-time computer repairman by trade and I've completed a periodical index for the computer industry. Very often, we need information about equipment, processes, etc. that were covered in previous articles of magazines. I thought a low-cost archive that's affordable for regular techs would be helpful. I want to sell it either in paper or CD-ROM format to others in my field. I know there are other indexes that cover the same market but I feel I have a niche product. My question is: 1-Can I legally create an index without specifically asking the publisher of the magazines, newspapers, journals whose stories make up my entries. The number of publishers I have numbers in the hundreds. Plus, I'm not including any real content except for a one-line abstract as to the nature of the article. I was under the impresion that as long as story content is not quoted, I should be copyright infringement free. Correct? 2-If I do need permission, are publishers generally receptive to indexes being done which include their products? Is there a fee? I feel it brings greater attention to their readability and only enhances the publication. But I don't know if publishers feel they have to sell the rights to index their publication to make money for themselves. I've include a sample entry below: Scanning made easy. PC Computing Feb. 1995. Paul Thiersen. v20, n2, pg 36(2). Introductory article about scanning documents & pictures for beginners. All my entries are pretty much like this. 3-In the future, I want to create a full-text CD-ROM complete with keywords, etc. Can you confirm that I will need permission from the publishers for that project to include stories. If you could e-mail me back with answers to these three questions as well as any other feedback you might have, I would appreciate a reply as I'm apprehensive about going ahead if litigation awaits me. Thank you very much. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 16:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: names The Anglo-American cataloguing rules are your best bet for names. You could look at them at your local library. Another option is to call the nearest big university library and ask to talk to a cataloguer who handles material in these languages. Usually cataloguers are thrilled to get to help someone personally. Another option is to look at a big library catalogue and see how similar names are handled. The "van der" name looks Dutch to me, not German--makes a difference. My AACR2 is in a box somewhere, so I can't help much directly. Remember, though, even if you alphabetize under the "incorrect" element, as long as you have see references all will be well for the user. This is one book and you are the only one creating this index, so you don't always have to be "right" according to some national standard. Just be consistent and practical. Hope this helps. --Helen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:02:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "WANG,YANYUN,MS" In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Tue, 02 Jul 1996 22:44:43 EDT >Please add me to your list. I was on it, and quite abruptly, about ten >days ago, there were no messages from indexers. That seems highly >unlikely, so I'd like to re-subscribe. Thanks! > YYW ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:31:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: illness and horror story Rachel writes, >I agreed to do this book based on 450 pages with approx. 3 weeks from last >pages. Then they said pages not ready, you'll have 2 weeks. Then they said >pages not ready, you *might* have some pages Thurs or Friday (of last >week), by Fed Ex and the deadline is still Wednesday (which gave me 5 days >if I were lucky). Then I got 38 pages on Thursday, nothing on Fri or Sat, >on Monday my contact says, oh, well, we didn't get the pages from DTP. I >asked why she hadn't let me know not to expect any pages so I could have >gone out and had a life. And the deadline is now Friday, and I might get >half the pages Tues, and the rest on Wed., and can I still do the job? In my experience, the best way to deal with this situation is to insist that you must have the previously agreed-upon amount of turnaround time and you cannot make up for the client's scheduling delays and still deliver quality work. (You guessed it, folks--this language goes right in my contracts.) Generally, when I'm asked for delivery estimates, I say "10 working days after I receive the material" instead of giving a hard date. Then, when the client's material does not arrive as scheduled, I either phone or e-mail and say that the originally specified final delivery date to the client will be adjusted by the number of working days that their actual delivery date to me is delayed. (I _never_ use language of any kind that might suggest that this as a negotiable issue.) At all times, I make it clear that I am operating a business, that I am tightly scheduled, and that I cannot rearrange my life and my other client relationships to make up for scheduling delays caused by internal events in the client companies. >Meanwhile, I arranged to take vacation from work based on the Wed. deadline >(I work weekends) so I could have gotten it in by then, and ended up on >vacation with no index to work on which seriously displeased me. Establishing that you cannot reschedule their work at the last minute will probably take care of this problem fairly well. >So I said, after discussions with Marilyn R (THANKS even though I didn't do >what you said!), that I could try to finish by Friday noon but that I was >no longer on vacation and wouldn't be able to spend as much time. But if >there were to be a rush fee, I would try harder, but still couldn't >guarantee a 450 page book in 3.5 days. I would make it clear that there was absolutely no way I could deliver the work that quickly without a rush charge. Remember, rush charges are intended to compensate you for the disruption in your personal and professional life caused by the client's emergency. >BTW, this is the same company I told you of before who wanted me toFTP >books and print my own pages at my own expense, which I refused to do. The best way to dispel the expectation that "when they say jump, you'll say how high" without always receiving adequate compensation for your work is to establish the relationship that way from the outset. In a recent post on a related topic, I explained that I put everything in writing with a new client--right down to clauses governing per-page printing and per-hour data transfer rates. Client communication is everything when you're freelancing--it can make or break you both personally and financially. >Two things, well 3, in favor of this company: the people I worked with are >very nice, and don't like the way things go there, either. Next, they pay >very promptly. And they gave me written credit in the first book I did for >them and gave me a copy without asking. OK, 4 things. This is all true...however, you probably need to work on the client relationship a bit. If you haven't written a brochure for yourself yet, maybe it might be a good idea to put one together and cover issues like FTP'ing files, printing charges, shipping charges, and client-generated scheduling changes. Deciding on policies for yourself, putting them in writing, and giving them to your clients is a very businesslike way of opening these lines of communication. Hope this helps, Rachel...and glad to hear you're starting to feel better. Sarah |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | Technical Writing * Developmental Editing * Indexing | | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 02:18:37 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael & Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: headings for numbers and special characters Ebron, Christine wrote: > > Hi Everyone > > I am compiling an index that contains several entries that start with > either a number or a special character. We typically format our indexes > so that there is a big letter at the beginning of each section of > entries (A, B, C, etc.). > > I want to put a heading above the entries with the numbers and special > characters, but am not sure how to address this. Here is one idea that > someone suggested: > > Special Characters > ### 10 > ??? 138, 199 > > Numbers > 24 month report 150 > 3-D bar 220 > > Your suggestions and comments are appreciated! > > Thanks, > > Christine Ebron > christine.ebron@cognos.com Christine, I'm an in-house indexer at Macmillan Computer Publishing. The way we handle situations like that is to put numbers and special characters together under "Symbols", with the special characters first, then the numbers. Symbols * (asterisk), multiplication operator, 239 + (plus sign), addition operator, 240 16-bit operating systems, 14 32-bit operating systems, 23-25 Hope this helps. Cheryl Dietsch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 07:00:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: publisher copyright issues In-Reply-To: <199607041918.PAA113178@rs8.loc.gov> Raymond, I would say it is not a copyright infringement to prepare an index to a periodical and provide a short summary. If you contact the publisher, who knows, it may even give you a gift subscription if it has any idea of how valuable such indexes are. I do recall reading once in a genealogy list though that the NY Times got snotty and threatened copyright infringement against a group of who wanted to index part of the New York Times for genealogical purposes. Do not know what year that was, but perhaps the 1991 Supreme Court decision recently discussed here and later copyright legislation would make such a suit untenable. Full text of the articles would indeed require the publisher's permission. But of course, for complete security, you should contact a lawyer who specializes in copyright. Best of luck and I say, Go for it! Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:09:00 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jackie West CONTRACTOR Subject: USDA class Good morning. Please add me to the list of folks who want to receive offline responses about the USDA classes in indexing. I recently sent for the catalog from the USDA and would greatly appreciate any responses about the basic course and/or the second one before I invest my money and time. Thanks for your help. Jackie West west@atb.teradyne.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:17:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: illness and horror story In-Reply-To: <199607041836.NAA14547@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> Rachel Rice has told us a tale of multiple deadline problems with one company. Sarah suggests not setting a specific date to return the index, but rather setting a # of days after delivery of page proofs. I would also suggest that you add a clause in your next contract with them (and with future clients). All of my contracts say the following regarding payment and deadlines... Late Fees: client must inform indexer of changes in arrival date of page proofs. If proofs are late without one week notice, indexer may require client to compensate indexer at 40% fee for time difference. If project is cancelled by default (if page proofs arrive so late that indexer must forego said project to begin another scheduled project), a cancellation fee may be applied... Cancellation Fees: client must give indexer two weeks notice of project cancellation. Failure to do so requires client to pay cancellation fee of 40% of estimated project fee. If project is cancelled while indexing is in progress, cancellation fee is added to compensation for work already performed... I do have space near these clauses to make notes, so that if a client _knows_ the deadlines are shaky, and I am okay with it, I can take note & allow a certain amount of it. Also notice I say "indexer _may_ require..." That way, if I don't want to charge them for it, I don't have to. But, I do have these to fall back on. The other issue with your client, is them expecting you to do so much in such a short time. You have to draw a line somewhere. Sure, you can accept the project & squeeze out an index, but if it will be something you would be ashamed to show to future clients, is it worth it? I know it's difficult to do when you're just starting out. You want clients. But, if you're easing into indexing slowly (and hanging onto another source of income), you might not be so desperate. It's your call, obviously. But, I've had to turn down indexes that had deadlines that would be difficult for me to meet (with a _good_ index), or that covered subjects I felt I couldn't do as well as others. It's all part of the job, knowing your own limits. I suppose that for you to know those limits, you must have experience pushing them, eh? Hmmm another Catch 22? Otherwise, it sounds like this client could be an excellent resource. Be sure to let the people you've worked with that you've enjoyed dealing with them & you'd love to continue working with them if they ever move on to other companies (which may happen, if they're upset about what's going on). Best of luck! And, yes, it does get better. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 08:31:47 -0700 Reply-To: Carolyn Weaver Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Attention Pacific Northwest Indexers! MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT PACIFIC NORTHWEST CHAPTER AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Saturday, August 10, 1996 11:30 am - 3:00 pm Speaker: Anne Leach Palm Desert, California Topic: Decisions, Decisions! Making Choices for a Quality Index Anne Leach has been prospering as a fulltime freelance indexer for 10 years. In that time, having indexed numerous monographs and textbooks, as well as innumerable software manuals, she has developed theories of usability and quality applicable to the three very different types of audiences for the indexes to scholarly works, textbooks, and technical manuals. In this session, she will share these theories with us, along with proofs, examples, and practice texts. Anne has been a member of ASI as long as she has been indexing, and attributes much of her success to her early involvement in the Golden Gate Chapter of ASI and the support of her good friends there. She has been a director of ASI for two back-to-back terms, head of the Publicity Committee for three years, editor of Key Words for over six years, and president of the Southern California Chapter. Because she gets paid for reading books for a living, her hobby is, naturally, reading--murder mysteries for excitement and Jane Austen for amusement. Location: Nickleby's Restaurant I-5 Exit 102 (Trosper Road) Olympia, Washington Directions: Traveling south on I-5, take Exit 102 (Trosper Road), stay in the right lane, and drive immediately into Nickleby's parking lot. Traveling north on I-5, take Exit 102, turn left and go over the freeway bridge. Nickleby's is on the right at the end of the bridge. Registration: $4.00 for ASI members; $7.00 for non-ASI members, payable at the door. Lunch: Select your luncheon from Nickleby's extensive menu; pay individually. RSVP by Wednesday, August 7 to: Julie Kawabata, Secretary/Treasurer, PNW/ASI 927 SE Clatsop St. Portland, OR 97202 503-231-8029 jkawa@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 12:01:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Rush Charges After the discussion of Rachael Rice's situation, I began to wonder what IS a reasonable rush charge. I am taking on a project for a valued client that has caused some rearranging for me. I should have charged them a rush fee, but didn't. Next time, I may, but don't know how much it should be. Thanks for your thoughts, Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:17:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: illness and horror story Kari's comment to Rachel: > The other issue with your client, is them expecting you to do so much >in such a short time. You have to draw a line somewhere. Sure, you can >accept the project & squeeze out an index, but if it will be something >you would be ashamed to show to future clients, is it worth it? I know >it's difficult to do when you're just starting out. You want clients. >But, if you're easing into indexing slowly (and hanging onto another >source of income), you might not be so desperate. It's your call, obviously. >But, I've had to turn down indexes that had deadlines that would be >difficult for me to meet (with a _good_ index), or that covered subjects >I felt I couldn't do as well as others. It's all part of the job, knowing >your own limits. I suppose that for you to know those limits, you must >have experience pushing them, eh? Hmmm another Catch 22? The other reason I don't accept the "walking-on-water" type of last-minute unexpected rescheduling is that it creates an expectation on the part of the client that this sort of thing is totally OK to do on a routine basis. Once you pull off a seemingly impressive feat in a very short timeframe, there's always the danger that you'll be pigeonholed as the indexer to call when deadlines slip and there's an impossible task to be tackled. Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 11:20:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: Rush Charges Nan writes: >After the discussion of Rachael Rice's situation, I began to wonder what IS a >reasonable rush charge. I am taking on a project for a valued client that has >caused some rearranging for me. I should have charged them a rush fee, but >didn't. Next time, I may, but don't know how much it should be. I generally charge 150% of my normal fees when the rush job means I have to work evenings during the week, and 200% when it requires me to work through a weekend. Suffice it to say, these amounts are a strong inducement to my clients to manage their projects and the use of my services so that I don't often have to charge such rates! Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 16:18:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rush Charges I have occasionally been asked to do a rush job for one of the bigger college publishers. I get an additional $300 each time. I don't know what others get and would be interested to know. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:00:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: illness and horror story In-Reply-To: <199607041836.LAA07456@spork.callamer.com> Rachel, glad to hear you're feeling better and that you managed to solve the problems you were having with that client. I would say that the situation you describe is not terribly common, but it does happen. Proofs do come in way late, but then I've always gotten an automatic extension of working time when that happens...without having to beg and wheedle. My typical client allows about two weeks for indexing, but in some cases when the schedule is incredibly tight they ask me to complete the job in a week or so...in a very few cases, even less time. A 450-page book that requires only a very light index job could probably be completed in three or four days, but that would be pressing things pretty hard. I've never asked for a rush fee (and it's never been offered). Does anybody else do that? Under what circumstances? What do you do in a situation such as Rachel has outlined, where the promised pages keep getting later and later, but (up until the very end) the publisher keeps insisting that the original deadline has to be met? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:04:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: headings for numbers and special characters In-Reply-To: <199607041836.LAA07549@spork.callamer.com> Christine, I would do one (or all) of these things: I would create a headnote for the index explaining where entries that start with non-letter characters can be found. I would create a main entry called something like, "special characters" (or whatever term best describes the kind of listing you are talking about), and have all the entries that begin with special characters listed as subentries under this main listing. You'll have to figure out how to "alphabetize" them on your own! I would place all these entries at the beginning of the index, as main listings, before the A's. That way, people will have the best chance of seeing them. Putting them at the end means you will lose people who are too lazy to check both places. Again, you'll have to figure out in what order to sort them... Finally, if some of these characters have names that lend themselves to being spelled out and =recognized= that way, I'd enter them in the index under their spelled-out name (along with the symbol). This is how number entries are indexed, BTW. (An entry that starts with 8 is listed under "eight" in the index.) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 19:51:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: illness and horror story Rachel, I'm sorry you had to go through that! When a client changes the date of last pages to me, I consider that the official due date has changed by the same amount, and I tell them so. I then tell them that I will finish the job for them as quickly as I can, and that I will call and tell them when I know the finish date. If they don't get it, I explain that I always meet deadlines because I agree only to jobs I know I can do; that I meet the obligations I agree to, and therefore can't let their slipping job get in the way of another client's; and repeat that of course these things happen and I will try my hardest to finish it fast for them. What I don't allow them to do is to expect that they can get my promise from me, change the dates around and expect me to pick up their slack. And when it's a brand new client, especially one that pays promptly, I'm a little less forceful. Good luck.... Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 21:31:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: headings for numbers and special characters On 96-7-3 Christine Ebron wrote: >> Hi Everyone >> >> I am compiling an index that contains several entries that start with >> either a number or a special character. We typically format our indexes >> so that there is a big letter at the beginning of each section of >> entries (A, B, C, etc.). >> >> I want to put a heading above the entries with the numbers and special >> characters, but am not sure how to address this. Here is one idea that >> someone suggested: >> >> Special Characters >> ### 10 >> ??? 138, 199 >> >> Numbers >> 24 month report 150 >> 3-D bar 220 >> >> Your suggestions and comments are appreciated! and on 96-7-5 Cheryl Dietsch replied: >Christine, > >I'm an in-house indexer at Macmillan Computer Publishing. The >way we handle situations like that is to put numbers and >special characters together under "Symbols", with the special >characters first, then the numbers. > >Symbols >* (asterisk), multiplication operator, 239 >+ (plus sign), addition operator, 240 >16-bit operating systems, 14 >32-bit operating systems, 23-25 Christine, I would do this in the same way that "someone" suggested to you: although the term "Symbols" is often used, "Special Characters" often seems more precise to me; and I prefer placing numbers in their own section. I can see combining numbers with special characters when there are very few of each, perhaps, but in such a case I'd want to use "Special Characters and Numbers" as the heading. The term "Numbers" brings up an interesting question: by "Numbers" do we mean leading numerals such as the "2" in "24" (analogous to leading letters), or do we mean entire numbers (which may be made up of any number of numerals) such as the number "24" (analogous to words)? If we mean leading numerals, then "Numerals" is a better heading, but if we mean entire numbers, then "Numbers" is better. More important than this is that, whether we realize it or not, the choice we make here determines the sort. In your example you regard "Numbers" as leading numerals and therefore file "3" after the "2" in "24", but if we regard "Numbers" as entire numbers we file "3" before "24". I myself much prefer the latter approach--I think it's much clearer for readers--so I would use your heading but rearrange your sort. Another interesting point is Cheryl's use of glosses (qualifiers) after special characters. This clarifies what is meant and also keeps such headings from looking exceedingly bare--especially when they're left sitting alone as main headings with a couple of subs below indicating different uses. Having said this I'd like to add that the practice of sorting special characters on well-chosen glosses seems to be gaining favor. To my mind, any advancement over ASCII sorts is welcome. Sorting on glosses is not without its own difficuties because it's not always clear how to write them--and sometimes impossible, but often it works very well. The two examples you give are a little tough, but for sorting purposes I'd probably use "### (number signs, triple)" ("number signs" instead of "pound signs" because of usage), and "??? (question marks, triple)"--or maybe just "(number signs)" and "(question marks)" if these expressions seemed adequate. Cheers, Michael BTW, here and in general, when anyone of us on this list wants to take up an issue that goes beyond the scope of the subject heading on the original message, I think it would be good to retitle the reply appropriately. That would surely help all of us later on when we look back over the listings of the messages we've saved and try to make sense of them! Thanks. Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service Grass Valley, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 00:18:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Rush Charges Nan Badgett wrote: >After the discussion of Rachael Rice's situation, I began to wonder what IS a >reasonable rush charge. I am taking on a project for a valued client that has >caused some rearranging for me. I should have charged them a rush fee, but >didn't. Next time, I may, but don't know how much it should be. My most recent experience with a rush fee occurred when a large publisher contacted me with an index in deadline trouble. They routinely allow 3 weeks turnaround for indexes, and this one was needed in 8 days. They offered 50% higher than their average page rate, which I gladly accepted. Tells you what one client thought it was worth. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 01:17:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara J. Stroup" Subject: indexes and more in the news Some interesting news tidbits (and my apology for posting list-serv commands last week!) re: thesaurus development.... "Microsoft Corp, the world's biggest software compnay, apologized yesterday to Mexicans for "grave errors" in its (word processing) computer thesaurus that equated Indians with cannibals......Used by up to 200,000 people in Mexico, a country whose population is mainly descended form Aztec and Mayan Indians, the program suggested as alternatives for the word "Indian": "man-eater" or "savage." Consulted for synonyms for "Western," the Spanish language program gave "Aryan," "white" and "civilized." Lesbians were equated with "pervert" and "depraved person." Microsoft Mexico offers an apology..." the company said and is....dispatching a language expert from its software development center in Ireland to discuss changes in the thesaurus with El Colegio de Mexico, Mexico's most august cultural body." and re: indexes..... A Boston Globe reviewer likes the index in _Jack and Jackie: Portrait of an American Marriage_ (Morrow)...."..those who appreciate Kennedy trivia will eat it up. You can open it to just about any page and find some riveting factoid. Or, if you have a specific interest, simply turn to the index, where you'll find all the dirt neatly arranged in alphabetical order from "amphetamines used by" to "womanizing of."..... (This index definitely created by one of our soil-conserving gardening members???) Barbara Stroup Indexer - ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:41:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: names Jill, I believe that four of the names on your list are Hebrew names. For Ibn Gabirol I saw a similar name, Moses Ibn Ezra under Moses in one book and under Ibn in another. Ibn means son of in Arabic I believe. Solomon is Ibn Gabirol's first name. For Yitzhak Dov Gilat I would put the entry under Gilat. Yitzhak is a first name (Yitzhak Rabin), Dov is probably a middle name in this case rather than part of a surname. For Ben-Zion Schereschewsky I would put it under Schereschewsky, I think the Ben-Zion would be the first name. For R. Moses Ha-Darshan I would put it under Moses. I think the R. stands for Rabbi and I just looked up Darshan and that means preacher, so it's Rabbi Moses, the preacher. For modern names like David Ben-Gurion, even though Ben means son of you would put the name under Ben because that's his name. But for the medieval names the ben (or ibn) has a different meaning - from the days before last names- so I have seen it put both under the first name and under the ben or ibn. Hope this helps. Judy Press Press Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 11:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: deadlines I've done it -- I said "no". After multiple promises of when the page proof on a large book would arrive, and multiple rearrangements of my work schedule, with lost opportunities and no written contract, ergo no cancellation clause or penalty clauses, I told the publisher that it was impossible to do a decent job in the time finally allowed when the page proof arrived, and I would not try. This was to be a learning experience for me ... the publisher wanted her page proof returned, which I did. I stood my ground, and it was returned at their expense. I said I would return it to them gladly, but not by overnight mail. They wanted it overnight so they could STILL REASSIGN THE INDEXING JOB!! I said I wouldn't pay for overnight on 2 big boxes -- almost 1,000 pages, due in 1 week! They had to give me their FedEx # if they wanted it back that quickly, which they did. I knew I wouldn't get work from that publisher again .... but to tell the truth, there are more fish in the ocean, and I've done fine without their work! That was OK. I had to set limits, or this would be the first of many instances of the same thing, I feared. To set minds at east .... yes, I do bend over backwards for clients I know and value. I do work short deadlines, but then again, they do usually give me an incremental raise on the per page rate. It works hand in glove. I value those clients and I will go along with them when they have scheduling difficulties -- because they go along with me when I need a few extra days on occasion. But I certainly do NOT allow a publisher to start off on the wrong foot, calling *all* the shots, abusing me, and not compensating for it. That is beyond my limit. Rachel, from my experience, what you lived through there is not the norm. It was a horror story, as mine was. In my years of indexing, I've enjoyed a lot of wonderful publisher or author/indexer relationships, I've enjoyed my work, by and large, and I've experienced most editors as appreciative, cooperative, reasonably human individuals. So there is hope. I think it helps to stand your ground sometimes to get off on the right foot, though. Setting limits from the start ensures that the relationship gets off to a good start. Don't lose faith in indexing! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 10:21:58 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Philip W. Jones" Subject: foreign words I'm indexing a book about Japan which has a lot of Japanese words in it. When I list these words in the index, do you think it is better to provide a translation in parenthesis, or just leave them alone? My instinct is to just leave them alone, because providing translations seems to open a huge can of worms, as well as violating the principle of not using the index as a glossary or encyclopaedia. I can see that if I do give translations, the index will look inconsistent, because some words don't need translation (karate), and others are titles of newspapers or works of literature for which it would be more appropriate to list the author's name or the word "newspaper" in paranthesis than to list the literal translation. Also, it seems to me that if you know enough to look up a foreign word in the index, you already know what it means, or if you don't know, than any brief definition I give may be too simplistic anyway. How do other people handle this problem? I checked a bunch of cultural studies books out of the library, and the indexes are very inconsistent. Heather Jones hpjones@rt66.com /----------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Everyone who stands in water should be taxed - D.P. Gumby | |----------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, New Mexico http://mack.rt66.com/hpjones/hpjones.html | \----------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 09:41:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Rush Charges In-Reply-To: <199607060258.TAA17987@spork.callamer.com> Leslie, can you define "rush job" for us? As I said earlier, I've never gotten (or asked for) a rush charge on an indexing job, because they ALL seem like "rush jobs" by any normal standards. Under what circumstances has this been offered to you? Under what circumstances would you ask for extra money if it wasn't offered up-front? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 14:47:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: illness and horror story Sometimes even if you can add on at the same number of days at the end of the project. If a set of pages is, say, a week late, I might not be available to still be indexing that book during the week after the original due date, because I might be working on another index that's also on a tight schedule. I have one client who is unable to keep to a firm schedule, because the books he handles are messy to design, so often the pages just aren't ready. The way we finally worked it out was that when I agree to index a book for him, I "pencil him in" and consider myself somewhat free to take on other work. That is, if I get a call for another book that falls in the time I blocked out for him, I call him to check on the schedule for his book (to see if it's slipped--although I'd still rather that he let *me* know when the schedule's slipped, sigh). If his schedule has slipped, then I'm free to accept other work, and I fit his book in later--if I can. That might sometimes mean that I won't get to do his book after all, but at least I won't have turned away other work and end up twiddling my thumbs (expensively) for a week. And on his side, he knows that if his schedule slips too much, he can't expect me to be available, and he might have to find someone else. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 13:43:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet Mccrorey Subject: Re: publisher copyright issues It sounds like what you want to create in question one is an annotated bibliography. You don't need anyone's permission for that. J. Mccrorey, Librarian ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 18:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: names Hebrew names are not always consistently inverted, much like other Middle Eastern names... You need to know the time period of the person.... Biblical and ancient names may not invert, but modern ones do in many cases: Ben-Gurion, David may mean David son of Gurion, but Ben-Gurion is his last name and no one would look him up under "David Ben-Gurion." My point is that you should look the names up in a biographical dictionary or major authority file to be sure, not rely on some general rules. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 18:36:03 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: foreign words If the foreign terms are recognized by the readers of the book, I would not provide translations, except where the author has used a specific translation or menaing of a word with multiple meanings. such as: Aloha (hello) Aloha (good-bye) -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 17:48:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: deadlines Janet writes: >fact that the pages are weeks late? ....> > >I've done it -- I said "no". After multiple promises of when the page proof >on a large book would arrive, and multiple rearrangements of my work >schedule, with lost opportunities and no written contract, ergo no >cancellation clause or penalty clauses, I told the publisher that it was >impossible to do a decent job in the time finally allowed when the page proof >arrived, and I would not try. This was to be a learning experience for me >... the publisher wanted her page proof returned, which I did. I stood my >ground, and it was returned at their expense. I had only a few learning experiences of this sort before I ceased the practice of doing _anything_ for a client without a written contract, period. Even with my longest-standing clients, I still insist on it. That way there's no confusion about everyone's roles, responsibilities, and expectations. And I much prefer to say "no" to a request that I work without a written contract than to a request that I fulfill a commitment to complete and deliver a project by a fixed date when there is excessive schedule slippage. Since my contracts contain cancellation and penalty clauses and specify acceptable scheduling-change policies, this takes care of the problem pretty neatly. Sarah |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 1996 23:31:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rush Charges Sonsie and all, With this particular publisher, the standard due date for an index is 2 weeks after receipt of final pages. A rush job is anything less than that. I have not had to ask for extra money. It has been offered to me every time they have asked for a rush job (with one exception early on--apparently they asked for the money in-house and forgot to tell me to invoice them for it. So my $300 has been swimming around or with someone else for years.) When working with small presses I have not asked for rush charges, I have asked for more reasonable time. Now that I have read other indexers postings, I feel more comfortable asking more for a rush job, even from the smaller presses. I may ask for less however. I would still consider less than 2 weeks a rush job. What are others' opinions? Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 09:02:38 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Harvey Kaniel Subject: Re: names >R. Moses Ha-Darshan - "R." is "Rabbi." "Ha-Darshan" is not his surname, but a title, meaning "the lecturer" or "the expositor." [Surnames were not used by Jews at that time.] >K. van der Toorn: probably "K." is first name. Surname would appear to be "Van der Toorn" (Is this German? Sounds like a Dutch name) >William von Soden: again surname is von Soden (this one sounds German) >Ibn Gabirol: literally means: "son (of) Gabriol". [Again, not really a surname] His first name was Shlomo (Solomon). >Yitzhak Dov Gilat: his surname is Gilat. "[Yitzhak Dov" is a sort of 'compound' first name] >Ben-Zion Schereschewsky: his surname is Schereschewsky. >Hope this helps Harvey Kaniel hkan@netvision.net.il At 01:41 AM 7/1/96 -0400, Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: >I was a bit hasty in posting my first inquiry. I found more names! The text >provides little help. I have consulted Nancy Mulvaney's book and contacted >my local library for help, but if anyone can give me guidance on making >entries for the following names I would appreciate it! In most cases, the >prefixes are throwing me off...not sure what they mean or where the *real* >last name begins! Rather than just guess, I thought I'd call on the experts! > >R. Moses Ha-Darshan >K. van der Toorn >William von Soden >Ibn Gabirol >Yitzhak Dov Gilat >Ben-Zion Schereschewsky > >Thanks! >Jill Barrett >Indexing Services > >