From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JUN-1996 06:11:50.99 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9605B" Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:49:37 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9605B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 00:43:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses Several people have written notes to me both on and off the list with justifications of why the correspondence course is so slow. I am responding here in an open letter because I'm getting rather annoyed with everyone's willingness to accept glacial response time of the correspondence course. I just got back my first response from my instructor for a lesson which I mailed to the USDA _March 22_. The instructor enclosed a note apologizing for the lateness of the response which I _do_ appreciate. But I am still disatisfied on several points. I know that not all students will want or be able to maintain a quick pace of study but students need _timely_ feedback and to maintain a sufficiently brisk pace so that they don't forget what was learned at the beginning. First let me say that I'm not so much critical of the instructors as I am the USDA (or whoever administers the course). Their method of mailing the lessons back and forth, around and about is just about the most archaic and inefficient method possible. It eats of a lot of unneccessary time and energy while making it just about impossible for the student to maintain even a modestly brisk pace. Although the instructors may no control over the way the course is organized, they do have control over the scheduling of their own work with students and indexing. If you are going to take on a job, any job, you set aside sufficient time to satisfy that commitment. I know grading papers is tedious and time consuming because I've spent years teaching but it is a necessary and important part of the work. If an indexer does not have adequate time to spare from the demands of their own business, then that person should not be an instructor. Its a shame that so well written and prepared a course is handicapped by these obstacles. I may be very critical of the course but I have learned a great deal about indexing from the it. Also, just changing the method in which the course is administered would probably have an enormous impact on turnaround times (remember fax machines, Fedex, etc.). Thanks for listening. Beth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 03:41:07 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Bibliogaphic refs in text It was hard to come up with a subject line for this one. Up 'til now, my scholarly works have had simple numbered footnotes (actually end notes; does anyone do foot notes anymore?). So, unless a person's name is mentioned in the book, with significant discussion around him/her, I don't index the name. Now I've got one of those books that looks like my husband's research papers, with names of authors and dates of papers instead of footnote numbers. Some citings are obviously not worthy, especially lists of names in paraentheses, but what if the person's inital mention is then followed by a two paragraph discussion of their particular theory, with their name mentioned (in parentheses or sometimes as subject of the sentence) several times? Examples: 1. Mentions I would index anyway: "Hence, the results of L.S.B. Leakey's excavations at Olduvai Gorge..... " "In 1854, Georg Wilhelm Hegel observed that "Africa is not an historical continent..." "Even as late as 1961, the British historian Hugh Trevor Roper wrote.... .." 2. The problem children: "William A. Hance (1995) listed the following: tropical rainforest, forest-savanna mosaic, relatively moist woodlands and savanna......" "In addition, Diop (1974) states that passing ancient Egyptian civilizat ion as a purely Mediterranean....." "'The history of Ethiopia may be said to begin in Arabia" (Perham 1968, 290). Perham stated that there is...." (long paragraph continues, then new para begins like this): "Margery Perham is not the only scholar who advocates the Arabian genesis of Aksum....." 3. The obvious exclusions include the name of the author of the source for Hegel's comments, listed as (Davidson 1992) at the end of Hegel's quoted words. I definitely wouldn't index this. Now I do have a call in to my editor, but past experience with this client has taught me that they won't know much about common practice on this issue. My husband (the geologist) says they should all (items 2 and 3) be treated as if they were numbered footnotes with reference-only information in them, and therefore, not indexable. On the other hand, many of these name references include one to several paragraphs on the person's theory or interpretation, and some names are raised again several pages later in an interpretation of a different topic. Also, this is the client who sends me the book in several parts, so I only have the first 66 pages and no front matter. Sorry to make this so long, but I wanted to be clear about my confusion, if you will. Any commentary from the more experienced on the list would be much appreciated. Joanne Clendenen (learning all about African Architecture this week) J_Clendenen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 03:58:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Indexing sensitive material This is an interesting thread! Unfortunately, it reminds me of an experience I'd rather forget. A few years ago, a terrorist organization somehow got my name and information about my indexing services; I think they got the info from one of the online services I use. Anyway, they originally misrepresented the material, saying it was essentially a history of their organization, which I'd never heard of, and its philosophies. That sounds innocuous enough, doesn't it? Fortunately, I had the forethought to request that they send me some of their material so I could provide them with an accurate bid on the job. What I got was more shocking than anything I've ever read, and I must admit that an element of fear became a major factor in the way I handled the situation. After all, a violent terrorist organization with a "philosophy" that couldn't be more different from my own had my name, address, phone #, etc. The last thing I wanted to do was to offend them, and turning down the job could have done just that. Finally, I decided that the best way to handle the situation was to submit a bid that was ridiculously high. You can probably imagine how relieved I was when they said they couldn't afford my services! Lori ****************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:34:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Indexable pages When charging by the page, I normally do not count pages that I don't have to read. These include chapter backmatter, such as bibliography entries, or illustrations that require no entries. What do others do? One of my clients seemed surprised by this practice. Thanks for your feedback, Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:45:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Lively Subject: Re: Indexable pages I agree with Nan. When charging by the page it does not seem ethical to charge for pages which I do not look at. The forematter, backmatter, etc., as Nan listed. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:00:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text Joanne, I understand your confusion! In my work with textbooks (both in indexing and in production) I have seen some strange indexes (usually prepared by authors). Often, authors want ALL name references in the index because those mentioned are colleagues or friends. I am reviewing a book now to give a bid on indexing the revised edition, and all names are indexed -- even those merely in footnotes (with which I don't agree). My preference is to index only those names that have significant discussion of the person or their theories. (Those with a paragraph or more of discussion and/or that are mentioned in several different places in the text.) I, too, am curious to see how others handle these problems. I often struggle with this especially when trying to please publishers AND authors. :) Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text Joanne, I don't know that I agree with your husband. I think #2 is also indexable. But .... Two things here (1) It's hard to be consistent on indexing these, as they're all judgement calls. Just be sure you're as consistent as possible in your choice of what to index and what not. (2) It does add to the length of the index. Sometimes the editor's haven't thought of whether or not to index this material, wouldn't know one way or the other, and just don't have a clue. Not all, but many editors just don't get "into" indexes that way. Indexing this material does impact the length of the index, though, and for that reason I mention it to the editor. If I don't outright ask if they want that material indexed (which often doesn't get a good answer), I tell them what I'm doing and why, so they'll know it adds to the length of the index but makes the index more valuable. If length is a problem, they should tell you so at this point, so you don't do all this work for nothing. To sum up, I hate to leave good stuff like that un-indexed. I always think .... "somebody might be looking for this information." So I like to index it if possible -- that's my inclination, to go toward completeness and thoroughness in indexing. There have been many times, though, that I've had to follow guidelines not to index it. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:10:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses Beth, Thank you for taking the time to put your thoughtful posting on the USDA course up on the airwaves. It's long overdue, I think. You said publicly what many have thought but were hesitant to say. I'm an experienced indexer, and learned on the job years ago, so I never took the course. But I'm often approached by people wanting to learn indexing, and I feel very badly that this slow way of taking a course is the best vehicle I can recommend for learning the trade. I could definitely see where the slowness would create problems in retaining the material. And people want to get to it, learn, do, and get into the new field quickly, now, not a year from now. It must be frustrating. I hope the USDA folks and instructors take note of your posting. I think the concept and methods of that course need to be re-thought and modernized. Also, it seems that the field is wide open now for other courses/learning methods -- something I've been thinking a lot about. There ought to be a better way ..... Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Mulrooney Subject: Re: Indexable pages Nan Badgett wrote: >When charging by the page, I normally do not count pages that I don't have to >read. These include chapter backmatter, such as bibliography entries, or >illustrations that require no entries. > Nan, I do just about all my work on a per indexable page basis. Like you I don't count backmatter, etc. unless there is some reading/indexing required. For example many chemistry or physics books have substantive information in the problem section at the end of a chapter. I'll scan it, index whatever I think's important, then count say 1 page out of 5 of the chapter backmatter as "indexable". Normally these "dead pages" amount to about 10% of the total book pages. On some books though with many small chapters the total can exceed 25%. Thus I am always able to give clients a fairly close estimate of the total project cost, which they seem to like. And it gives me the advantage of knowing just how big my check will be ahead of time. I think the "per indexable page" system works well when the majority of your work is of the same general level in terms of references/page. Lately I've started doing some more intense material like drug chemistry and while I've adjusted by charging a higher page rate for those projects I may be better off doing a per entry rate. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:36:39 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text Joanne: With this sort of information, I try to gauge whether people interested in the topic of the book would be interested in finding this information. If yes, I index it; if not, I treat it as a passing mention. In other words, I can be somewhat uneven about indexing such material (although I do tend to include the name in the index and a subject entry about the information, if there is a whole paragraph about it, even if it seems like an aside). Another 2 cents. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 11:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexable pages I only omit blank pages and those the client specifically tells me not to index. I figure if it has *anything* on the page, I at least have to look at it to determine whether I should index it or not. The occasional quick dismissal is more than offset by other pages that require intense scrutiny. It all averages out. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:39:34 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Indexable pages Nan: I sometimes subtract the unread pages too, especially if the rest of the project has not been difficult. However, if the density of entries per page on the indexable pages is high, I accept that the "extra" pages help to balance out the overall density of entries, and therefore I feel entitled to a fee based on the total number of pages. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:14:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lea Sandman Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses Beth and Janet, I very much appreciate the warning about delays with the USDA course. I just mailed my first lesson, and am diving into the second. I am willing to devote a lot of time to learning the material thoroughly, but timeliness is important too. I wonder if instructors could send lessons directly back to the students, and simultaneously forward a copy of the lesson (or just the grade) to USDA. That would save one step in the process. Lea ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:23:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Indexable pages On Wed, 8 May 1996, Nan Badgett wrote: > When charging by the page, I normally do not count pages that I don't > have to read. These include chapter backmatter, such as bibliography > entries, or illustrations that require no entries. I do this as well, but I try to be careful what qualifies as a "page that I read." A book preface, for example, rarely has indexable material in it because introductions and so forth are too broad in scope. However, once in a while I am surprised to see a single indexable nugget in a five-page preface. To find that nugget I have to skim through those five pages. Those pages count when I invoice, even if no "nugget" appears. Since those pages are also often numbered with roman numerals, the client isn't always aware that they need to be included in the book's page count. On the other hand, a whole-page figure in the middle of a topic range -- when I am instructed not to index figures -- is skipped and not counted toward the book page total. (Often the preface and the "blank pages" even out in the long run anyway, so I might stick with the agreed-upon page count.) - Seth Seth A. Maislin O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com seth@ora.com WWW: http://jasper.ora.com:80/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:33:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Theresa Perkins Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses on May 8 Janet writes: >>>> >Also, it seems that the field is wide open now for other courses/learning >methods -- something I've been thinking a lot about. >There ought to be a better way ..... >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing Yes, Janet I heartily agree! It seems that indexing would lend itself quite naturally to an online or email method of instruction. If the USDA can't do that maybe someone else will. Theresa Perkins MLIS candidate Kent State University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 13:50:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Simon <74064.301@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Gerunds as entries I'm indexing a book on shamanism and have a number of entries about shapeshifting. I understand that it is not desirable to use gerunds, such as "shapeshifting" as entries, and am wondering whether an exception is merited in this case. Suggestions appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:48:07 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries Carolyn Simon writes: >I'm indexing a book on shamanism and have a number of entries about >shapeshifting. I understand that it is not desirable to use gerunds, such as >"shapeshifting" as entries, and am wondering whether an exception is merited >in this case. Suggestions appreciated. Who says it is not desirable to use gerunds as entries? A quick skim through the index of Nancy Mulvaney's book reveals entries for "cataloging", "copying entries", "editing of index", "formatting", "indexing", "sorting", "spelling", "typesetting", and "writing". If "shapeshifting" is an important topic in shamanism, use it as an entry. From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton 2001, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229. E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:51:54 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries Gerunds that are true nouns seem fine to me; gerunds that are used in place of verbs (especially in subheads) I generally try to rewrite as noun phrases: ghosts: shapeshifting by, would be fine with me. computer books tend to have lots of gerunds as subheadings, and I guess I've learned to live with them there too. But in scholarly books I try to re-write the subhead: an alternative might be: ghosts: shape changes by, In this case, I'm not sure that the revised entry is any clearer than just using "shapeshifting by". In a lawn care book Jill (my trainee) is working on, we have separate entries for Lawn mowers and Mowing, Rakes and Raking where the gerunds clearly relate to the activity, the nounds to nouns to the implement thereof. Someone recently suggested to me that turning the gerunds into adjectives might get rid of the gerunds, but I would be unsatisfied with "Raking acitivities" or "Mowing activities" when the gerund is already clear. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 13:18:00 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter On 1996-05-08.1127, you wrote: > I'm indexing a book on shamanism and have a number of entries > about shapeshifting. I understand that it is not desirable to > use gerunds, such as "shapeshifting" as entries, am wondering > whether an exception is merited in this case. Treat it as a pure noun. The undesirability applies more to gerundives than to gerunds, anyway; as I understand it, the rule is only a general guideline to prevent endless entries of "creating X" or "traveling to Y" and the like. ......................Paul Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 13:36:49 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Charles M. Dugan III" Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text As a reader of academic texts, I can say that it is actually VERY IMPORTANT to have ALL names indexed if the book is meant for people doing research in the subject. When I indexed books of this type, if the publisher only wanted names which were mentioned in "significant discussions", I became suspect of books by that publisherl. Name indexes are very important for doing research because they allow you to find results that may be important to you, even if they were tangential to the main topic of the text. This is especially true of references in footnotes. Footnotes often provide details that are vey important to users of the book who want to follow up on the topic in the footnote, and having an index to the material and the names that are mentioned there is very important. Additionally, on a more practical level, the inclusion or lack of inclusion of the name in an index could influence sales. When professors browse texts, one quick way to determine if a text is appropriate is to scan the name index to see if it mentions the work that s/he considers most important for her of his class - the absence of too many names can lead to a quick rejection of the text without to much further reading. ("her of his" in the previous line should be, "her or his" - I am using a line editor, and can't easily go back and correct typos.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:38:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Type of computers used in indexing Dear Index-L folks I've been "lurking" on this list for a few months and this is my first post. I'm taking the USDA course (more about that in a few lines) and am looking at buying a computer to do indexing. Which brings me to that big bugaboo question that first time computer buyers always come up against: DO I BUY AN APPLE OR AN INTEL-based COMPUTER? I would like to get a computer that is compatible with most of the the clients that I would be serving but I'm not sure which one that would be. Any advice would be most appreciated. BTW I was absolutely appalled at Beth Tudor's description of how long it took to get her first lesson back. I just sent my first lesson off last week. I agree with her. I certainly don't want to wait a month and a half to get my lesson back. I think we need to say something about this situation particularly since the course states explicitly *not* to do lessons before getting feedback on previous lessons. I don't think however that the USDA people monitor this list. Perhaps we could get together all interested parties (via e-mail or someother means) to discuss some solutions. I work in Washington DC so I can make phone calls to the USDA office without running up my phone bill. Please post your reply to this letter directly to me, not the list. Thanks a lot. Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org *If you have a witty or even off-color tag-line please feel free to * *insert it here. * X x ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:31:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Greenhouse Subject: Gerunds as entries In-Reply-To: note of 05/08/96 13:59 Why not use "shapeshifter" or "shapeshift" (I'd check out a Tony Hilleman mystery to see how many permutations are available)? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:45:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OV/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Greenhouse Subject: DC-ASI Meeting Announcement *** Resending note of 05/08/96 17:35 How Librarians Use Indexes The Washington D.C. ASI Chapter is sponsoring a meeting Saturday, 29 June 1996 at St. John's College Boathouse, overlooking College Creek, in Annapolis, MD. *ASI tshirts will be available for sale.* *Historic walking tour/pub crawl afterwards.* Schedule of Events 10:30 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. - Registration 11:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. - Business meeting 12:00 p.m. - 1:30 p.m. - Catered lunch 1:30 p.m. - 3:00 p.m. - Panel discussion: A panel of librarians will discuss how they view and use indexes in each of their specialties: Wendie C. Old - Helping Children Do Research in Libraries. Ms. Old is Children's Librarian at the Fallston Branch of the Harford County Library. In addition to helping children do research, Wendie has published several childrens' picture books and four Middle School biographies, which she indexed herself. Patricia V. Melville - Finding Aids Used in Archive Collections: Card Indexes vs.Databases. Ms. Melville is Director of Reference Services at the Maryland State Archives. Isabel W. Czech - The Science Citation Index and other projects. Ms. Czech is Director of Publisher Relations at the Institute for Scientific Information. Dr. Kerryn A. Brandt, MLS - Human vs. Machine Indexing on the Web (MeSH vs. Lycos). Dr. Brandt is Assistant Professor, Division of Biomedical Information Sciences, and Program Director, Information Management and Curriculum Support at the Welch Medical Library of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Richard Shrout - Cataloging at the Department of Justice. Mr. Shrout is Assistant Director of Technical Services at the Department of Justice Main Library. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Register early to reserve a seat on metro shuttle and to get lunch. __________________________________________________________________ Name (as it will appear on registration badge) ___________________________________________________________________ Organization ___________________________________________________________________ Address _________________________________________________________________________ City State Zip Code E-mail __________________________________________________________ Telephone Fax Will you need a seat on the shuttle from New Carrollton metro?_________ (please indicate number) Vegetarian? Y N (for lunch) Registration Fee: Postmarked by 15 June 1996 (covers catered lunch) $25.00 Members; $30.00 Nonmembers. Cancellations require 3 days notice for refund (subject to a $5.00 processing fee). Send registration to Editorial Services, 619 Severn Ave., Suite 103, Annapolis, MD 21401 ATTN: DC-ASI Registration (please put in Subject field if registering by E-mail) or wiley@indexing.com. Shuttle will pick up from New Carrollton metro @10:00 a.m. and will leave the boathouse at 3:30 p.m. for return to New Carrollton metro station. St. John's College is located off Rt. 50, at the end of Rowe Boulevard. Maps and parking information will be provided with registration confirmation. Tshirts cost $15 for S, M, L, XL and youth sizes, $18 for XXL and XXXL, including tax. The shirt is natural with the ASI logo in green. (Looks just like the new ASI stationary) You can reserve a shirt now by sending a check to Deborah Patton @ 1301 W. 42nd St., Baltimore, MD 21211. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 18:06:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Edwards Subject: Software question I have been readings the postings here with interest the last few months and hope to meet some of you in Denver next week. As a newcomer to indexing, I have a question as to the value/usefulness of Word (6 or 7 for Win95) and Excel. I have the opportunity to save money on the purcahse of one or the other in the next few days, and would appreciate any input on which is the best--or perhaps neither is wothwhile for indexing? Any input would be helpful. Thanks. Jill Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 22:17:12 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries Carolyn Wrote: <> I wish I had your book. Envy, envy! Shapeshifting is a magical skill, and a noun, in my book. I guess they're called gerunds officially. I can't think of a better or more poetic way of putting it. Go for it! No rule, particularly in English, is ever written in stone. Joanne Clendenen J_Clendenen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:21:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text In-Reply-To: <199605080626.XAA04045@spork.callamer.com> > > On the other hand, many of these name references include one to several > paragraphs on the person's theory or interpretation, and some names are raised > again several pages later in an interpretation of a different topic. Joanne, the general rule I follow is if the reference involves "substantive" discussion. Now the trick is to define "substantive" in some realistic way for the text you are working on. I generally agree with your choices (excised from this reply). I generally prefer to err on the side of including too MANY references, rather than too few...since most authors of this kind of book really want to see heavy indexing. This is particularly true if the book is in a market where text adoption is a possibility. Then the prospective adopters will scan the index to see if THEIR name is mentioned. If it is, well, so much the better! If you are not working in batches, it's also helpful to mark questionable material and go back later, after you've indexed a fair amount of the book, to see what looks includable. You may discover that a passing reference to Smith's work on page 75 is followed on page 200 by an extensive discussion, so you would want to include that earlier reference even if by itself it isn't really indexable. Hope this helps... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:24:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Indexing sensitive material In-Reply-To: <199605080759.AAA07538@spork.callamer.com> Lori, what a perfectly frightening story! I hadn't even considered that sort of possibility, when this thread arose. Quick thinking on your part seems to have done the trick, however. Your story also reminds us of the possible dangers of putting our names, addresses, and phone numbers in so public a place as this. I do =some= online advertising, but I almost never include complete identifying information about myself unless and until I get an e-mail from a person who sounds responsible and not like a nut-case. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:25:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Indexable pages In-Reply-To: <199605081439.HAA21999@spork.callamer.com> Nan, some publishers are very particular about this, and either count the pages themselves and give me an "official" page count or request that I do that (and include only indexable pages). However, most don't seem to care. I've had the same surprised reaction you got, when I've asked how they want me to handle it. I base my estimates, however, on INDEXABLE pages, not on total book pages. In some cases this makes a substantial difference, as backmatter for each chapter can be huge. The publisher is pleasantly surprised when my estimate comes in so much lower than their original idea. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 17:31:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries In-Reply-To: <199605081824.LAA13777@spork.callamer.com> > I'm indexing a book on shamanism and have a number of entries about > shapeshifting. I understand that it is not desirable to use gerunds, such as > "shapeshifting" as entries, and am wondering whether an exception is merited > in this case. Suggestions appreciated. If the author actually uses the term, "shapeshifting," then I'd go with that term regardless of any other rules. Having been involved with cultural anthropology and New Age religious materials, I can say that this IS a term that is used extensively, and if that's what the author wants, that's what he/she should get...unless the publisher has some reason to NOT want to use it (unlikely). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 16:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Software question In-Reply-To: <9605082252.AA18896@mx4.u.washington.edu> That's a little like asking whether to use a bicycle or rollerblades to move a sofa! Word processers are for creating documents, and spreadsheets are for manipulating numbers. You can certainly use them for other things in addition to their primary function (like creating indexes); but there is no real substitute for investing in the tool that's best suited to the job. You will still need a word processor for correspondence and (possibly) desktop publishing; but the added features of a full-fledged indexing program will pay for itself in very short order. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Wed, 8 May 1996, Jill Edwards wrote: > I have been readings the postings here with interest the last few months and > hope to > meet some of you in Denver next week. As a newcomer to indexing, I have a > question as to the value/usefulness of Word (6 or 7 for Win95) and Excel. I > have the opportunity to save money on the purcahse of one or the other in the > next few days, and would appreciate any input on which is the best--or > perhaps neither is wothwhile for indexing? > Any input would be helpful. Thanks. > > Jill Edwards > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 18:16:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Subscribing and unsubscribing >To unsubscribe from Index-L, send a message to the LISTSERV, not the >discussion. An alternate address is: >listserv@bingvmb.bitnet >The sole content of that message should be the word SIGNOFF. Craig (and others): I don't think that's quite enough. It should be SIGNOFF INDEX-L. The listserv at bingvmb no doubt is running more than one list, so you have to name the list you're signing off of. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 19:58:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries In a message dated 96-05-08 15:50:51 EDT, cauchi@WAVE.CO.NZ (Simon Cauchi) writes: >Carolyn Simon writes: > >>I'm indexing a book on shamanism and have a number of entries about >>shapeshifting. I understand that it is not desirable to use gerunds, such as >>"shapeshifting" as entries, and am wondering whether an exception is merited >>in this case. Suggestions appreciated. > >Who says it is not desirable to use gerunds as entries? A quick skim >through the index of Nancy Mulvaney's book reveals entries for >"cataloging", "copying entries", "editing of index", "formatting", >"indexing", "sorting", "spelling", "typesetting", and "writing". If >"shapeshifting" is an important topic in shamanism, use it as an entry. I have to agree with Simon. I think that gerunds are appropriate index entries, as demonstrated in Nancy Mulvany's book, _Indexing Books_. Peg Mauer Communication Link PO Box 192 Piercefield, NY 12973 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:08:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Software question RE: the value/usefulness of Word (6 or 7 for Win95) and Excel I actually use both, and couldn't live without either one. I use Cindex for standalone indexing, Word to pick up the RTF file generated by Cindex and because most clients take Word files, and Excel to do all kinds of indexing I can't use Cindex for. I would suggest both, but Word or a word processor is the most critical, just for handing off files to clients in file formats they can use. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Indexable pages In a message dated 96-05-08 10:41:32 EDT, you write: > >When charging by the page, I normally do not count pages that I don't have to >read. These include chapter backmatter, such as bibliography entries, or >illustrations that require no entries. > >What do others do? One of my clients seemed surprised by this practice. > >Thanks for your feedback, >Nan Badgett >Word-a-bil-i-ty Nan, I don't charge for blank pages or pages composed of nothing but bibliographic references (which can take a huge chunk out of the page count of scholarly books). I do charge for pages containing figures and tables unless the client says specifically not to index them--which has been rather rare in my experience. One client tells me to avoid indexing too many figures and tables (which I'm happy to comply with because when I do, I have to code the page numbers for italicized "f's" and "t's" for this client). I index them only when they happen to fall out of a page range covering the related text. But whether I index them or not, I do charge for them because this type of material is often useful for understanding the text--meaning I have to at least look at them. Plus, some tables are so good for displaying relationships between concepts that I'm constantly referring to them for the purpose of structuring the index and sometimes for generating cross references. OTOH, I indexed a book that was almost entirely tables of a sort that could be covered by a few entries for page ranges. To index all of the row and column items would have been really excessive. In that case, I deducted huge amounts of pages for the tables as it ended up taking me only a few hours to index a few hundred pages. (If I had charged for each page of the tables, I would have made about $200-300/hr!!!) As for back matter, I charge for it only when I must index it. (Appendixes to computer books, for example, often contain vital, indexable information not covered elsewhere in the text.) I really like Kevin's solution, BTW, for handling problems and exercises at the end of chapters in text books. I hadn't been charging for them, but found myself having to look at them in case there is something indexable within them. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:26:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text In a message dated 96-05-08 02:28:55 EDT, Joanne wrote: >Now I've got one of those books that looks like my husband's research papers, >with names of authors and dates of papers instead of footnote numbers. Some >citings are obviously not worthy, especially lists of names in paraentheses, >but what if the person's inital mention is then followed by a two paragraph >discussion of their particular theory, with their name mentioned (in >parentheses or sometimes as subject of the sentence) several times? > Joanne, I wrestled with this exact problem on the most recent book I indexed except that my dilemma was with names that weren't in parentheses and were often included in section headings giving them a lot of prominence. (The only reason that this was a dilemma was because an authors index, prepared by the publisher, was to accompany the subject index. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any question as to whether to index the more prominently mentioned ones.) Usually, I ignore names that I know will be listed in an authors index. (Will an authors index accompany your subject index?) And this especially includes citations in the text followed by a year, exactly as you described. They are the equivalent of numbered endnotes, IMHO. (My book had entire sections devoted to individual scientists, including section headings containing their names, making it extremely hard to decide whether to leave them for the authors index alone as they were sort of like subjects in themselves.) >2. The problem children: > > "William A. Hance (1995) listed the following: tropical rainforest, >forest-savanna mosaic, relatively moist woodlands and savanna......" > "In addition, Diop (1974) states that passing ancient Egyptian >civilization >as a purely Mediterranean....." I'd skip references of this nature unless Hance's or Diop's names come up repeatedly, giving them more prominence in the field. Again, if an authors index accompanies the subject index, IMHO, I wouldn't index it these at all. > "'The history of Ethiopia may be said to begin in Arabia" (Perham >1968, 290). > Perham stated that there is...." (long paragraph continues, then new para >begins like this): "Margery Perham is not the only scholar who advocates the >Arabian genesis of Aksum....." This is exactly the type of reference I had a problem with. I indexed these types of references in my last index, despite the existence of an authors index. (And I was probably wrong to do so.) It sort of sounds as if Perham's work may have been seminal in the field with other scholars deriving their work from hers. I probably shouldn't have indexed these (because of the existence of an authors index), but I'd definitely index this in a book without a separate authors index. (A very subtle indication of her possible importance, at least to the author, is the mention of her first name.) > >Now I do have a call in to my editor, but past experience with this client >has >taught me that they won't know much about common practice on this issue. My >husband (the geologist) says they should all (items 2 and 3) be treated as if >they were numbered footnotes with reference-only information in them, and >therefore, not indexable. My editor didn't get back to me until after I sent off the index so I was twisting in the wind like you are. ;-D (So, that's three of us, including us two and Janet Perlman who feel it's important to discuss these issues with editors.) I only partially agree with your husband as you can see by the distinction I made for Perham. > >On the other hand, many of these name references include one to several >paragraphs on the person's theory or interpretation, and some names are >raised >again several pages later in an interpretation of a different topic. I'd definitely index those with several paragraphs devoted to them in the absence of an authors index. The references where the person's name is raised again on a different topic lead me to believe that those particular individuals are important in the field (at least by the prolific nature of their research ;-D). That makes them more likely to be retrieved by readers, i.e., more indexable, IMHO. Also, this may be a rather spurious consideration. But, if your text is likely to be read by the author's colleagues (probably), I'd also consider whether the more prominently mentioned individuals will go delving into the index for their own names. (This became an issue in a book I indexed that I felt would have a pretty narrow readership, mostly by the folks mentioned in it. ;-D). >Joanne Clendenen >(learning all about African Architecture this week) Just like I learned about learning disabilities, especially the subset of reading disabilities, in the text I had my particular problem with. It is absolutely mind-boggling to read about cognitive and metacognitive processes involved in reading when one performs a very intense type of reading for a living! ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:27:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Indexing Sensitive Material In a message dated 96-05-07 17:14:55 EDT, you write: >I did take the job, and while it was not exactly a pleasant interlude, I >learned a great deal about the subject. One of the things I learned, sadly, >is that most pedophiles cannot really be "cured," no matter WHAT sort of >treatment they receive. And that most have been molested as children. > >I think it was smart of the editor to warn me about the subject matter, >and I expect that similar topics would disturb many people. But there's >not much you can do--or should be expected to do--to "protect" an indexer >(or copyeditor) from material which just doesn't match his or her personal >biases in terms of religion, morality, etc. > > =Sonsie= Sonsie, Great points!! I would hope that an editor would warn me, no matter how academic the treatment of the subject. I worked as a staff member for Women Organized Against Rape for several years back in the '70's and after dealing with so much horror on the subject (including children) on a daily basis, I think indexing a book on the subject would bring back all of those nightmares I had frequently there. If I took on such an index, I'd probably get the index right, but would be a basket case for weeks afterward. And you're right on both points about the offenders, BTW. (I did a survey of the research on treating offenders while there.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 20:40:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Software question Jill, The replies you've gotten so far have been right on -- all of them. Nothing, NOTHING, will take the place of a standalone indexing program such as Macrex, Cindex, or even InSort (and there are others). BUT, of the two choices, I'd say you'd have far more need for, and use out of, the Microsoft Word program, than the Excel. I would doubt that you'd need Excel, unless you get into some very specific types of more sophisticated indexing, like Jan Wright has. I've been in business for quite a few years, and haven't needed it. You might like Excel to keep your bookkeeping on it, since it's a spreadsheet. That would be all right now. The MS Word would be your basic word processing program. You'd use that for two things: to generate your resume and correspondence (very important use), and to do final touch-up on the file that you get from Cindex or Macrex (or whatever indexing program you get). All of them have the capability of generating ASCII files and Rich Text Files, either of which can be read into your word processing software easily. You could then edit/style one final time, put the finishing touches in, as well as any coding the publisher requests, and be done and send the file off. So I'd vote for MS Word first, of the two. But don't forget to consider a standalone indexing program Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:57:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text Many of the education theory and practice books I've been doing over the last two years have a large number of within parenthesis citations [e.g. (Byron 1948)] and a smaller number of citations with the author cited directly by name outside of the parenthesis [e.g. Byron (1948)]. Unless there is a specific reason to do otherwise, I follow the rule of indexing all parenthesis citations where the author is cited directly outside of the parenthesis and ignore those without a direct explicit citation. In other words, for the example provided by Joanne, 96-05-08 02:28:55 EDT, "William A. Hance (1995) listed the following: tropical rainforest, forest-savanna mosaic, relatively moist woodlands and savanna......" I would index Hance but if it had read "The following tropical rainforest, forest-savanna mosaic, relatively moist woodlands and savanna ... are listed (Hance 1995)." I would not index Hance. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 22:25:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jill Edwards Subject: Thanks for the info Thanks to all who responded to my software question. I did mean in addition to indexing software and should have been more specific. I think Word it is, then. I have another word processor, but it came with the computer and is very basic. I assumed I would need something with which to send indexes into publishers with correct codes etc. and you have clarified that for me. Thanks again. Jill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:17:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Approved99@AOL.COM Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! Date: 96-05-08 20:26:18 EDT From: Approved99 To: usenet.mail-to-news.reflector@usenet.vax1.zer2.co.np -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info request form below. IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR THOSE FAXING IN THEIR REPLY: Please make sure you return *only* the below form and *no part* of this message other than the actual form below. If you do not know how to cut and paste the below form onto a fresh clean blank page for faxing, then you may re-type the below form, as long as you copy it line for line *exactly.* This is necessary in order for them to be able to process the tremendous number of replies that they get daily. Your fax goes directly onto their 4.2 gigabyte computer hard drive, not paper, and all incoming fax calls are set-up to be *auto-terminated* and/or *auto-deleted* from the incoming queue of faxes to be read, if your fax: 1. has a cover page; 2. is more than one page 3. is sent more than one time 4. does not begin with the "cut here/begin" line from the below form 5. does not end with the "cut here/end" line from the below form. 6. has any handwritten info. on it (info must must be filled out *only* with your computer keyboard or typewriter keyboard). This last provision re: no handwriting on the form applies to requests sent in via smail also. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOTE: Their fax line is open 24 hrs. per day / 7 days per week. However, if you have trouble getting through due to the high volume of overseas faxes coming in during the early morning and late night hours, please note that the best time to get through to their fax is Monday-Friday, 9 am - 5 pm EST (New York Time). If you have trouble getting through to their fax, or do not have a fax machine at work or at home, just drop the below form to them via smail (airmail or first class mail). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* REQUEST FOR MORE INFO: please return *only* this section (with no cover page) via 1-page fax to: 718-967-1550 in the USA or via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Magazine Club Inquiry Center Att. FREE Catalogue-by-email Dept. PO Box 990 Staten Island NY 10312-0990 Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged. If you do not have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you until you do have one. If you saw this message, then you should have one. :) ---> SORRY, BUT NO HANDWRITTEN FORMS WILL BE ACKNOWLEDGED. MUST BE TYPED-OUT ON YOUR COMPUTER OR TYPEWRITER. <--- Name: Internet email address: Smail home address: City-State-Zip: Country: Work Tel. #: Work Fax #: Home Tel. #: Home Fax #: How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referral by: Helen Ng. 050896-l-foy Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store: Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail: Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you: Catalogue format desired (list "1," "2," "3" or "4"): *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* Catalogue Format Options: 1. 19-Part email- can be read by EVERYONE (~525 K Total). 2. For more advanced computer users: attached text file ~525K - you must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to open it with your word processor. If in doubt, don't ask for this version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1 and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how to deal with this option. 3. For more advanced Macintosh computer users: compressed attached text file, created with a Stuffit(tm) self-extracting archive (.sea), ~133K. Can be decompressed by any Macintosh computer user; no special expansion software or knowledge of Stuffit (tm) needed. You just double-click on the file icon and it automatically expands (unstuffs). This is for more advanced mac computer users only, as you still have to know how to deal with an attached file. It will cut your download time by 75%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 4. For expert computer users: compressed attached text file, created with Stuffit(tm), ~114K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) Stuffit(tm) (.sit) files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 78%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. Hi fellow 'netters, My name is Helen Ng and I recently started using a magazine subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country on a subscription basis. As for computer magazines from the USA, they more of a selection than I ever knew even existed. They have magazines for most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles. Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price guarantee. Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their overseas members. They are also cheaper than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves! This is their price guarantee. Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and cut-out all the middlemen. They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that they sell. Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student. I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my part-time software business! Please fill out the above form and carefully follow the intructions above to get it to them via fax or smail. They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet. They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it. They have been very helpful and helped me with all my address changes as I haved moved from one country to another. They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from a special list of over 270 popular titles published in the USA. They will give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular USA titles they sell. They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have clients in around 45 or 46 countries now. Outside the USA there is a charge for FPH (foreign postage and handling) (on both paid and freebie subs) that varies from magazine to magazine. I have found their staff to be very friendly and courteous. They even helped me with an address change when I moved from one country to another. The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members" (even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts as a new member. When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes he has one of his assistants call. He is kind of quirky sometimes - he insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!), but you can place future orders (after your first order) via E-mail. He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know just as much as he does about this magazine stuff. If you live overseas, he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long distance rates are cheaper then. He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing members and he does virtually no advertising. When I got set-up, they had a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately when you call. ) I think they are able to get back to prospective new members the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased their staff. I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above form to them, that is the way to get started! They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that they sell. They then send you email that outlines how his club works and the list of free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what he sells; and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly, no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and answer all your questions. Once you get in, you'll love them. I do. Sincerely, Helen Ng ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:34:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Colons as heading-subheading separators Dear colleagues: I noticed a hidden but valuable third cent worth of information in Barbara Cohen's posting on gerunds: her use of colons after main headings set in indented format. I don't use either colons or commas after main headings followed by two or more subheadings indented beneath them, as in rivers in California navigating but I do like using colons instead of commas to separate lone subheadings from main headings that have no locators of their own, as in rivers: navigating Rivers, Joan: talk show career vs. rivers, navigating Rivers, Joan, talk show career The colons make it easy to distinguish subheadings from main headings, particularly when the mains are inverted names (especially when such names include comma-delimited suffixes like Jr. or Sr.); and there's no possible confusion about the function of the commas since all commas used are grammatical. Moreover, colons help to differentiate simple mains like "rivers" from comma-delimited homographs like "Rivers" in adjacent inverted-name headings. I wonder why we don't see many indented indexes formatted in this way--the way it _is_ done in run-on indexes. Why should it be done differently and (in my mind opinion) less clearly, in indented indexes? Cheers, Michael Brackney | How come most indexers stick commas Brackney Indexing Service | instead of colons between headings? Grass Valley, California | ? ? ? ? ? ? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 23:40:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Julia Marshall wrote: > DO I BUY AN APPLE OR AN INTEL-based COMPUTER? > >I would like to get a computer that is compatible with most of the the >clients that I would be serving but I'm not sure which one that would >be. Any advice would be most appreciated. I don't think there is a simple answer to the question of what "most" clients use, because there are so many and it varies a lot. Publishing is one industry where the Macintosh line has a large market share, much larger than in business in general (perhaps 50% or more in the production side) so I have actually run into more where the Mac is used (including some where a PC disk was asked for but the real work was being done on a Mac!). The answer I would give you is, it doesn't matter, especially if you and the client can get a little bit smart about interchanging files. Either a Mac or a PC can create a file readable by the other type (though my biased view is that it is a bit easier for a Mac to create and read both types directly than for a PC) as long as the receiver is willing to learn about importing RTF formats and such. Buy whatever you would wish to use for all the other reasons you would make a decision. It will work out fine. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 02:54:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Julia, Piggybacking on Larry Harrison's answer to you, I'd say it didn't matter at this point either. You're always safe with a PC (Intel-type chip). And most savvy computer users with Apple systems can read those files (which you would submit) using one of the utilities available for that purpose. Another consideration is that the standalone software available is DOS based. At least the two most popular programs are DOS based. So it's easiest to use them on a PC. However, they can be used on Apple systems with a software emulator. Many people run their systems this way. And Macs with Power PC chips can run DOS-based programs too. The incompatibility between the two types of systems has been disappearing, making the choice less of a right/wrong situation. There maybe other factors that would prompt you to buy one system over another. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 03:18:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: More on the USDA Indexing Course I've gotten a bunch more responses about the USDA indexing courses and there are some very good points being made that I want to share. Since some of the responses are via private email, I will follow netiquette and not quote directly. 1. A number of kind people sent encouraging notes, supporting my position. Thanks to Janet Perlman, Lea Sandman, and a couple of people on private email. Some fellow and prospective students thanked me for bringing up the issue. They felt that it needs to be aired and discussed. (Janet - I hope you run with the idea of starting your own correspondence course). 2. A fellow student noted that doing a correspondence courses are not like most teaching. Students begin and send in assignments at random times. Good point. I hadn't really thought about the problem of not being able to plan ahead very well. What do you do if all your students turn in assignments at the same time? Probably the same thing I do during finals every semester - you spend a lot of time grading lessons but then later will have stretchs of time with fewer than normal lessons to grade. What about illness and vacations? There aren't any substitutes or should there be? That is such a predictable set of problems, the course administrators ought to have some way of dealing with it. Substitutes, back up graders for simple lessons (some of these lessons would be very simple to grade), postcards informing the student of delays, all come to mind as fairly straightforward ways of dealing with such problems. When I have to miss a class or delay grading exams in my university classes because of illness, etc. at least my students always are informed of the problem. 3. The same person went on to say that he thought the USDA were having an unusually heavy student load right now. That is a slightly different issue. If the people administering the course should inform students that there may be longer than usual waits for graded assignments (all it would take is a few postcards printed out by computer), it would be very helpful. I would have known that it might take 6 weeks to get my first acknowledgement. BTW, is the course still being run by the government? I thought that it had been divested by the federal gov't into an independent nonprofit? 4. One person suggested that I write to Norma Harwood who runs the course with my comments. I think that is a great idea. I plan to look for an address and more information on how the course is being run. The same person also didn't think this was the best place to discuss the issue since evidently its been brought up many times before and just wasn't very interesting. There I must disagree. Any profession must be closely and continually involved in the training of new members. For example, my father the geologist just spent the last three years working on standard recommendations for geology curriculum with representatives from all the related major professional (for petroleum geologists, geophysicists, well log readers, petroleum engineers, etc.). He worked without pay and little recognition because he realizes that any professional group is only as respected as its members are competent. I don't think indexers are used to thinking of themselves in that light (as a professional group) but it is critical to our future. 5. Finally, I got a very nice note from my instructor who explained that the delays were for a variety of reasons. I appreciate the note but still think 6 weeks is altogether too long to wait for a response. The course administrators and instructors should have some way of dealing with the to be expected normal illnesses, vacations, and glitches in the mail. Thanks again for your kind attention. I want to make it clear that this is not about personal animus or a flame of those who might disagree with me in part or whole. I truly believe that this must be an issue addressed by indexers as a whole. I am very sorry that I can't attend the Denver meetings as that would be a prefect place to bring the subject up. Hopefully next year I'll be able to afford the trip. Everyone have a great time. Beth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:09:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries I subscribe to this list in digest mode, which has several advantages for me; however, one disadvantage is that my responses sometimes aren't as timely as I'd like them to be. This is one of those times. Anyway, in response to Carolyn Simon (74064.301@compuserve.com), here's my thinking on gerunds as entries .... When I deliver indexing workshops for technical communicators, I tell them that *some* gerunds are often better as subentries than as entries -- such as changing, deleting, erasing, removing, selecting, starting, and using. Other gerunds, which are more specific, are perfectly good choices for both entries and subentries (in other words, double posting) -- such as formatting, installing, linking, naming, printing, or troubleshooting. Shapeshifting is certainly specific (especially if th author uses the term), and I agree with others on this list that it would be an excellent index entry. BTW, like Joanne Clendenen, I wish I had your book. ;-) Lori ******************************************************************* Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ******************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 06:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing At 02:54 AM 5/9/96 -0400, Janet Perlman wrote: ... > At least the two most popular programs are DOS based. So it's easiest to >use them on a PC. However, they can be used on Apple systems with a software >emulator. Many people run their systems this way. True. >And Macs with Power PC chips can run DOS-based programs too. Not true, to the best of my knowledge. The only way to run a DOS or Windows program on a Macintosh without using a software emulator such as SoftPC or SoftWindows is to install a DOS compatibility card in the Macintosh, which will run you approximately $500 (or more, depending on the power of processor on the card). The last I knew, DOS compatibility cards were only available for *some* models of Macintoshes. The range of models for which you can purchase these cards varies among the three vendors that I am aware of (Apple, Reply and Orange Micro). ===================================================================== Rollie Littlewood (608) 26 2-7385 University of Wisconsin-Madison Email: rklittle@facstaff.wisc.edu Institute for Molecular Virology & Laboratory of Molecular Biology 1525 Linden Drive Madison WI 53706-1596 FAX : (608) 26 2-7414 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:31:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Friday reception-Denver Since my duaghters won't be able to go to the reception Friday eve in Denver, I am not going. So I will have a ticket that someone else could use to take their companion. Please email me and we can work out a hand-off. Margie Towery Towery Indexing and Editing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:57:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: henderson@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses In-Reply-To: <01I4H00WA6AY0036ZB@ALPHA.NSULA.EDU> I agree. I am enrolled in the course and have experienced a long turn around in all lessons. My instructor is good, writes a lot of comments on lessons, etc., but has a full-time job, indexes on the side, and has a family. I agree that the instructors should be chosen on the basis of having time to grade and return lessons within a set frame of time. Just because you have other obligations does not release you from this one. Several messages have been posted from instructors citing their full-time jobs, etc. This is not a valid justification for delays in returning lessons. One delay was so long, that I have not gotten back to finishing the very last lesson and taking the exam. Will have to spend extra time refreshing my memory about previous work. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Martha V. Henderson, Ed.D. Voice: (318)357-4403 Professor and Coordinator Library Automation FAX: (318)357-4470 Northwestern State University Natchitoches, LA 71457 Henderson@alpha.nsula.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Katharyn Dunham Subject: Re: Software question Jan Wright mentions using Excel "to do all kinds of indexing he can't use Cindex for" I have not used Excel and I'm interested in what kind of indexing I could do with it. I am a Cindex and WordPerfect user. Katharyn Dunham ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Software question In a message dated 96-05-09 10:13:43 EDT, MaineHerbs writes: >Jan Wright mentions using Excel "to do all kinds of indexing he can't use >Cindex for" I have not used Excel and I'm interested in what kind of indexing >I could do with it. I sent Katharyn a copy of my last month's long post about Excel, and will be happy to send it to anyone else if they ask, so that the list doesn't have to read it again. But I just had to post to all that I'm a she, not a he. (I keep forgetting that Jan can be a guy's name as well! ) Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:20:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing I agree with the other responses, but I'd like to give a slightly different perspective. The standard answer to "What kind of computer should I buy for ____?" (fill in the blank) is, "It depends on what software you want to run." True here as well. Choose your tools, then choose the platform to run them on. The importance of compatibility with your clients depends on the type of indexing software you intend to use. If you're going to use a stand-alone program like Macrex or Cindex, as most professional indexers so, you'll probably be submitting indexes as text files with little or no formatting. In this case the issue is unimportant; as others observed, there are plenty of means of moving these files across platform boundaries. If you'll be using embedded indexing, you'll receive document files from your clients, add indexing codes, and return the files. Those files could have very complex formatting in them, which would have to be preserved. In this case, the platform issue is very important. IN THEORY you can translate a Word for Macintosh file (for example) to Word for Windows format, do your job, and translate it back. IN FACT there are so many little incompatibilities and quirks in the two platforms that portability is often a fiction. In the latter case, you should consider getting two computers as soon as your volume of work justifies it. With a little networking they can share one printer, backup device, etc, making the total cost considerably less than double. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:26:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: USDA: My Thoughts I would like to address a few issues about CEDIT 360 (Basic Indexing correspondence course offered by the USDA) that have been brought on INDEX-L. I have been involved in this course since 1987. I have watched the enrollment grow from literally a handful of students to hundreds and hundreds. This course was originally created by BevAnne Ross in the 80s. When I took it over from BevAnne I usually graded perhaps 5 lessons a week. At 5 lessons a week, that would amount to 60 lessons a quarter. We now have five instructors trying to keep up with the volume of this course. In the first quarter of 1996 I graded 548 lessons. That is a 900+% increase from 1987. How much other paying work did I do in the first quarter? Not much. I am not complaining about this, it was my choice. But, believe me, I cannot afford to handle 548 lessons every quarter. I am paid $5.15 per lesson. There are some lessons that are quick and easy to grade. Do the math. Say I can grade them, record the grade, prepare them for mailing in 10 minutes. At 6 lessons per hour I am earning considerably less than I earn from my other work. What I earned from 12 weeks of USDA work, I can earn in a week to week and a half of other work. One aspect that distinguishes this course from many other workshop-type "courses" is that there are four actual index preparation assignments. There is no way that these assignments can be graded in 10 minutes. These index preparation assignments drag down the hourly return on time considerably. It is not uncommon for an instructor to spend an hour on one of these lessons. Another aspect that distinguishes this course is that the instructors are working indexers. We are not dealing with the theory of indexing but rather the practice of indexing. Since it should be quite clear that none of us are doing this for the income, one must wonder why we are doing it at all. Although I can only speak for myself, I'm sure other instructors share my opinion. I have been concerned about professionalism in indexing for a very long time. As in any other profession, training of new practitioners is an important issue. I have been teaching hands-on indexing courses through the USDA and the University of California Berkeley Extension for many years. The Correspondence Study Program at the USDA offered an excellent venue for the development of a basic training course for aspiring indexers. While there have been logistic problems at times, I have found no other reasonable alternative. Through the USDA we have been able to develop a course that is formally accredited and has been subject to peer review. The USDA handles administration and publicity for the course. Some have suggested that ASI offer a course like this. Well, when ASI has at least one full-time staff member to handle administration, ASI can begin to think about it. That's what it takes, at least one full-time person to deal with administration; that does not include course design, grading and evaluation of lessons. While accreditation may not seem important to everyone, it is important to me. ASI or an individual offering an indexing course would not be able to attain reputable accreditation. As part of my professionalism in teaching, I consider accreditation important. Both courses I teach offer accredited college units. Some of the comments made on this List suggest to me that the writers have little or no experience with correspondence study and adult education. I have taught both correspondence courses and face-to-face classroom courses. Quite frankly, I much prefer teaching my UC Berkeley class. It has a schedule. It begins on a specific date and ends ten weeks later. I know exactly how many students I have to deal with. I schedule their work. I schedule my work around their work. There are no surprises. Before the class even begins, I know exactly which week I will have 20-25 indexes to grade. Since we have so much in person interaction, the Berkeley students do not have as much homework as the USDA students. I can just tell them things, we discuss the nuances of indexing. Everything I want to share with my USDA students must be written. Both UC Berkeley Extension and USDA are self-supporting. Neither institution receives any taxpayer dollars. This is adult education in action. If I can't grade papers, there's no TA to fall back on. These self-supporting programs do not have the built-in infrastructure common to university programs. That's the nature of the beast. It is the instructor's burden to keep courses moving and on track. I see no way to change that. I am well aware of the frustration correspondence students must feel when waiting for the return of lessons. There have been some excessive delays and we are trying to deal with that. We are considering some options to get lessons back to students faster. However, there will never be overnight service. Email is not a viable option for many reasons. Much of what we are concerned about in many lessons is formatting. I have no intention of redesigning this course to accommodate the various email formats for say italics, or turnover line indention, or boldface type. Submitting lessons by fax is not an option. There are weeks when I receive 100+ pages from students. My fax machine is for the use of my clients. It is a cheap machine -- glossy paper, no paper cutter. I have no intention of investing in a plain paper fax machine with buffering capabilities. Sending the lessons by fax or email would not get them graded much more quickly. I now always have a backlog of papers to grade. My desk is never clear of papers. Email or fax submission would get the work to me perhaps one or two days sooner. It would still go into my pile of lessons-to-be-graded in order of receipt. When things go well it would be graded within a week; more likely within two weeks. Unlike my Berkeley class, the USDA course never ends. For a bit over a year I took a break and asked that no new students be assigned to me. During that period, not a week went by when I did not have lessons to grade. Some students take two years+ to complete the course. The flow of lessons never stopped. This month I will be out of town for eight days. Before I leave, I will grade as many lessons as I can. But, I know there will be an incredible backlog awaiting my return. It will be well into June before I catch up. So why do I teach this course? One reason is that I care about our profession and feel that training in real-world indexing is important. I realize that not everyone can take my Berkeley class or the NYU class. The USDA has provided a way for people, regardless of their location, to train in indexing. I have had over 700 students assigned to me through the USDA course. I've been involved long enough now that I can look around and see former students making a living as professional, sound indexers. One USDA student, two years after CEDIT 360 (from another instructor) received the ASI-H.W. Wilson Award for Excellence in Indexing. I have no doubt that this course has made a good contribution to our profession. We have excellent instructors, unmatched by any other program. By the way, we are always looking for new instructors. If you have at least five years, full-time experience as a freelance indexer, a desire to teach, and at least 40 hours a month for the first few months to devote to the course, please send me email. -nancy Nancy Mulvany Instructor, CEDIT 360 nmulvany@well.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:09:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Indexing Courses in general (was: Re: USDA ... >Janet Perlman, Southwest Indexing, wrote: > Also, it seems that the field is wide open now for other courses/learning >methods -- something I've been thinking a lot about. A company called Wasser, Inc in Seattle, WA offers a "Creating Superior Indexes" class. I'm taking it next week because of glowing recommendations from several colleagues. Wasser is an outsourcer that recently started offering this training to the public. My contact at Wasser has been Keith Martin, keithm@wasserinc.com or if that doesn't work put his name in the subject line to wasserinc@aol.com. ====================================================================== Robin Hilp - robin@microtekintl.com - "Play me Le Jazz Hot, baby!" business: Microtek International, Inc | personal: 2373 N.W.185th #329 3300 NW 211th Terrace | Hillsboro, OR 97124 Hillsboro, OR 97124 | Mbr DNRC - Mgr STC WVC Indexing SIG - Margret Bjorn's Dottir, An Tir ====================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing In-Reply-To: <9605090516.AA29706@mx4.u.washington.edu> I have one long-term client who has always specified output in Word on Mac-formatted disks; but on the most recent project I convinced him that his Macs (running System 7) can handle my DOS disks with no trouble; and since it's much easier for me to provide DOS disks (and he therefore doesn't have to pay for my time to do file transfers), he was happy to comply. We are a two-platform household; I use a Compaq 486 for indexing, and my husband and kids are all Mac people. So while it's quite possible for me to save my Cindex file to .rtf on a floppy and carry it to the Power Mac in the other room to transfer it to a Mac-formatted disk and save in Word for the Mac, it's a pain in the posterior. So now I just ask clients requesting Mac output if they are running System 7, and if so, if they will accept an RTF or Windows file on a DOS-formatted disk. About the only time anyone objects is if the client is a technophobe who isn't sure WHAT he's running - in which case I'll either send a small test file on disk or simply send a MAC disk if the client has doubts. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:34:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses >I hope the USDA folks and instructors take note of your posting. I think the >concept and methods of that course need to be re-thought and modernized. > Also, it seems that the field is wide open now for other courses/learning >methods -- something I've been thinking a lot about. I had the same frustration with the course that others have posted. Even though the instructor did agree to send and receive my lessons directly, the turnaround time still averaged four weeks. Impossible to maintain any kind of momentum. Like others here, I was more or less happy with the course content, but because of the length of time involved, I was thereafter hesitant to recommend the course to others. One thing I've sometimes recommended to wannabes is to teach yourself from Nancy Mulvaney's book, get in lots of practice (starting with small pieces and working up to longer stuff), and then *hire* a willing, established indexer to look at your stuff and coach you. Let's face it: most of the first part of the USDA course is stuff that intelligent people can teach themselves from a book (I'm talking about formatting, alphabetizing, and the like). If you were willing to spend a comparable amount (the USDA course is around $260, right?), you could get about six hours' worth of feedback from an experienced indexer. I'm assuming a sort of consulting fee of $40/hr. What do y'all think of the scheme? Has anyone tried it? I'd be interested to hear people's experiences with it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:34:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Bibliogaphic refs in text >Examples: > >1. Mentions I would index anyway: > > "Hence, the results of L.S.B. Leakey's excavations at Olduvai >Gorge....." > "In 1854, Georg Wilhelm Hegel observed that "Africa is not an >historical >continent..." > "Even as late as 1961, the British historian Hugh Trevor Roper >wrote......" > >2. The problem children: > > "William A. Hance (1995) listed the following: tropical rainforest, >forest-savanna mosaic, relatively moist woodlands and savanna......" > "In addition, Diop (1974) states that passing ancient Egyptian >civilization >as a purely Mediterranean....." > "'The history of Ethiopia may be said to begin in Arabia" (Perham >1968, 290). > Perham stated that there is...." (long paragraph continues, then new para >begins like this): "Margery Perham is not the only scholar who advocates the >Arabian genesis of Aksum....." I would index the names in 1 and 2 but not 3. I index mostly academic books, and so far my production editors have wanted those names included. If the author is discussing another author's work, then that other author *is* a subject. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:35:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing >DO I BUY AN APPLE OR AN INTEL-based COMPUTER? Julia, although I think it's safe to say that most professional indexer use IBM computers (or clones), many of us use Macintosh. I've indexed on a Mac (now, a Mac clone) for four years, and I've never had any problem providing my clients with documents in the format that they need. If they need WordPerfect on an IBM disk, no problem (because Apple provides the translation software). Indexing software exists for both IBM and Mac. I use HyperIndex, and if you'd like more info about that, just drop me a note off-list. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 13:16:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries I just read Carolyn Smith's posting re the admissibility of gerunds as index entries, and am considerably interested. In my admittedly brief indexing experience, I've never run across an injunction against gerunds. Noun forms are recommended, and for many verbs gerunds are the closest thing to a noun form. Not all verbs have "tion" or "ment" or "ence" forms, e.g., "marketing", "sailing", "walking", "farming" (which is not synonymous with "agriculture"), and "zoning." If you need a direct entry for such activity terms, then the gerund form is your only real option. This is assuming that you don't want to bury the meaningful word by re-writing the heading to start with another word form, e.g., "the process of", "profession/career of", or other verbiage to avoid starting with the gerund. If the activity is the focal concept of the topic for which you're making an entry, isn't the most useful access point for the index user most likely to be a word for that activity? If an object or agent is involved in the topic, the heading could be worded to start with that, but still that would, I think, bury the activity, and cause it to be missed in browsing by some users. Space and time permitting, one could in these cases have headings starting with the action term and the object or agent or whatever. Of course it'll depend on the topic whether the activity is prominent or not. But if it is, don't bury it just because the term for it is a gerund. This was a timely question, from my perspective. I've been adding gerund forms to a lot of descriptors as postable, Alternate forms, in the thesaurus I work on, recently. Therefore I'll be very interested (nay anxious!) to hear what professional indexers think of the gerund as an appropriate form for index entries. If I've been coding and inputting all for naught, I'll throw myself on a sharpened card catalogue drawer rod - a true Roman librarian's death. Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:16:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Simon <74064.301@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Gerunds as entries Thanks to everyone who commented about using "shapeshifting" as an entry. I've decided to leave it in that form, which was my instinct all along. And for those who wished they had the book, I have to confess that I'm not being paid for this assignment, just doing it as a sample, and still looking for my first professional assignment. The book (Fire in the Head: Shamanism and the Celtic Spirit by Tom Cowan) was published without an index. Of course, I'm hoping the publisher might like to buy mine for the next edition. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 17:13:57 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses As Carol Roberts mentions, hiring a private consultant could easily cost you hundreds of dollars. But you get what you pay for! There are a number of professional indexers who gladly provide comments on beginning indexers' work, and the feedback is probably lots faster than the USDA course. But you still have to contend with the schedules of the freelancer's primary clients. I have been assisting people for 5 years by reviewing indexes, and no indexer can afford to consider this as an alternate income! As Nancy points out, we do it as a labor of love for the profession. We ask to be compensated for our time, but in my experience, if I bill for 10 hours of consulting, I might have put in double that time thinking about what to say and how to say it best. In this light, I would aslo like to elaborate on Nancy's point about reviewing all those indexes: in my experience, every indexer makes different "beginners' errors." You could not possible have anything like a canned response... each critique must be written from scratch because of the unique combination of problems that might occur (I have a checklist I use, but frankly, it's the starting point and not much more useful than that). So, although we indexers are glad to help train new indexers and provide commentary, we cannot always provide the speedy service that you might like. We can provide carefully worded constructive criticism. If you can wait for it, you might find it worth waiting for. My 2 cents. I promise to get off the soap box now. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 15:59:00 -7 Reply-To: grant@onyxgfx.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Grant Hogarth Organization: Onyx Graphics Corp. Subject: (Fwd) Anti-SPAM Law proposed in CA. FYI: This appeared in the 05/07/96 San Jose Mercury-News. LAW, ORDER AND CONSUMER DISCLOSURE ON THE NET Published: May 7, 1996 BY REBECCA SMITH Mercury News Consumer Writer SACRAMENTO -- The Internet is in its Wild West days, says Assemblywoman Jackie Speier. Now she and Atty. Gen. Dan Lungren want to introduce a little law and order through a bill that would apply California mail order laws to commercial transactions conducted over the Internet. If the bill passes, it would be the first of its kind in the nation. In a Capitol press conference Monday, Speier (D-Burlingame) said AB3320 is a ''gentle approach'' to the growing problem of electronic consumer fraud. It would require all vendors using the Internet to disclose their addresses and refund policies on the screen, and to provide a toll-free means of resolving disputes. The bill will receive its first hearing before the Assembly Consumer Protection Committee today. While no formal opposition had announced itself Monday, Speier said she was trying to build a coalition behind the bill, of which her pairing with Lundgren behind the measure was highly symbolic. Credit card companies, which suffer heavy losses from fraud, should be pleased by the bill. Speier said you can be cheated in one of two ways. A scam artist may obtain one of your identification numbers (credit card, Social Security, drivers license) and buy things with it, or the goods and services you buy yourself either aren't delivered or turn out to be shoddy. ''The standards for Internet commerce should be just as high as for telemarketers or mail order,'' said Speier, former chairwoman of the Assembly Consumer Protection Committee. No one knows how many consumers are defrauded each year over the Internet. ''We can't even get good numbers on Internet users, let alone fraud. It's just growing too fast,'' said Steve Telliano, press secretary for the attorney general's office. He said it makes no sense to wait any longer before establishing protections. Right now, it's nearly impossible for consumers to tell whether a vendor is reputable without conducting a transaction -- which may be risky. For example, one recent advertiser on the Internet claimed to be able to put people in touch with foundations giving out huge cash grants. Another promoted high-risk stocks. A third promised a $24 cure for AIDS. Coinciding with the press conference was the release of a new study titled, ''Consumer Traps on the Internet'' by The California Alliance for Consumer Protection, a Sacramento-based consumer organization. ''Our report found lots of traps on the Internet,'' said Michael Ross, who wrote it. ''We aren't trying to impede the Internet, but to make it a place that's safer for consumers.'' The report included a list of five common Internet complaints: -- Deceptive marketing practices. -- Inaccurate on-line information. -- Financial scams, frauds and impersonations. -- ''Spamming'' or the distribution of electronic junk mail. -- Copyright and trademark infringement. Ross said that consumers never should give out credit card information via e-mail, or register to gain access to free Web sites. ''What many people don't know is that there is as big a market for e-mail lists as for mailing lists,'' said Ross. ''This, often, is what these people really are after. Then they sell your name and information.'' Speier urged consumers to visit two Web sites devoted to alerting the public to Internet fraud. -- The National Fraud Information Center tells consumers about Internet scams and gives tips on how to avoid being victimized. -- The California Alliance for Consumer Protection maintains a site containing several resources including the full report, ''Consumer Traps on the Internet'' and ''The Top Ten Consumer Complaints,'' a report issued last autumn by the Assembly Consumer Protection Committee. Here's a quick guide to detecting Internet consumer fraud: 1. Hidden name or address. Don't conduct business with anyone who won't give you a verifiable name, address and telephone number. 2. Unverifiable references. ''As seen on Donahue'' or ''as seen on television'' may sound impressive, but that's not enough information to look them up. 3. Too much talk about money, not enough about the deal. This can include claims that a ''limited number'' of people are being allowed to get in on the offer. 4. ''This is not a scam.'' Reputable businesses don't spend time convincing you they are honest. 5. Credit card requests. Don't give your credit card number to anyone by e-mail. It can be snatched as soon as you type it. 6. A pyramid structure. Ignore anyone asking you to send mail or money to other people who will pass it along to other people. Pyramid schemes are illegal. 7. Too much knowledge about you. Be suspicious if a new ''net friend'' seems to know more about you than you've conveyed. 8. Inappropriate questions. 9. Pay before you play. The details of an offer are hidden until after you pay a fee. 10. Unsolicited e-mail. Treat all contacts from strangers with suspicion. ©1996 Mercury Center. The information you receive on-line from Mercury Center is protected by the copyright laws of the United States. The copyright laws prohibit any copying, redistributing, retransmitting, or repurposing of any copyright-protected material. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:51:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Conroy675@AOL.COM Subject: Interesting place I found in a remote corner of the net --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Interesting place I found in a remote corner of the net Date: 96-05-09 17:54:05 EDT From: Conroy675 -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info request form below. IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR THOSE FAXING IN THEIR REPLY: Please make sure you return *only* the below form and *no part* of this message other than the actual form below. If you do not know how to cut and paste the below form onto a fresh clean blank page for faxing, then you may re-type the below form, as long as you copy it line for line *exactly.* This is necessary in order for them to be able to process the tremendous number of replies that they get daily. Your fax goes directly onto their 4.2 gigabyte computer hard drive, not paper, and all incoming fax calls are set-up to be *auto-terminated* and/or *auto-deleted* from the incoming queue of faxes to be read, if your fax: 1. has a cover page; 2. is more than one page 3. is sent more than one time 4. does not begin with the "cut here/begin" line from the below form 5. does not end with the "cut here/end" line from the below form. 6. has any handwritten info. on it (info must must be filled out *only* with your computer keyboard or typewriter keyboard). This last provision re: no handwriting on the form applies to requests sent in via smail also. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ NOTE: Their fax line is open 24 hrs. per day / 7 days per week. However, if you have trouble getting through due to the high volume of overseas faxes coming in during the early morning and late night hours, please note that the best time to get through to their fax is Monday-Friday, 9 am - 5 pm EST (New York Time). If you have trouble getting through to their fax, or do not have a fax machine at work or at home, just drop the below form to them via smail (airmail or first class mail). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ *------------cut here/begin-------------------------------------------* REQUEST FOR MORE INFO: please return *only* this section (with no cover page) via 1-page fax to: 718-967-1550 in the USA or via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Magazine Club Inquiry Center Att. FREE Catalogue-by-email Dept. PO Box 990 Staten Island NY 10312-0990 Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged. If you do not have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you until you do have one. If you saw this message, then you should have one. :) ---> SORRY, BUT NO HANDWRITTEN FORMS WILL BE ACKNOWLEDGED. MUST BE TYPED-OUT ON YOUR COMPUTER OR TYPEWRITER. <--- Name: Internet email address: Smail home address: City-State-Zip: Country: Work Tel. #: Work Fax #: Home Tel. #: Home Fax #: How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of the internet that you saw us mentioned in): Referral by: Jennie Conroy 050996-l-wtl Name of USA mags you currently get on the newsstand or in the store: Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail: Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when we call you: Catalogue format desired (list "1," "2," "3" or "4"): *------------cut here/end--------------------------------------------* Catalogue Format Options: 1. 19-Part email- can be read by EVERYONE (~525 K Total). 2. For more advanced computer users: attached text file ~525K - you must know how to download an attached text file and then be able to open it with your word processor. If in doubt, don't ask for this version. This isn't for internet *newbies.* Better to order option 1 and spend a few minutes pasting them into one whole text document with your word processor, than to waste hours trying to figure how to deal with this option. 3. For more advanced Macintosh computer users: compressed attached text file, created with a Stuffit(tm) self-extracting archive (.sea), ~133K. Can be decompressed by any Macintosh computer user; no special expansion software or knowledge of Stuffit (tm) needed. You just double-click on the file icon and it automatically expands (unstuffs). This is for more advanced mac computer users only, as you still have to know how to deal with an attached file. It will cut your download time by 75%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. 4. For expert computer users: compressed attached text file, created with Stuffit(tm), ~114K. Can be decompressed by any computer user who has expansion software to decompress (expand) Stuffit(tm) (.sit) files. This is for more advanced computer users only and will cut your download time by 78%. Expands out to the same ~525K file in option #2. See option #2 for more info on what you will need to be able to do. Hi fellow 'netters, My name is Jennie Conroy and I recently started using a magazine subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country on a subscription basis. As for computer magazines from the USA, they more of a selection than I ever knew even existed. They have magazines for most every area of interest in their list of 1,500 titles. Within the USA, for their USA members, they are cheaper than all their competitors and even the publishers themselves. This is their price guarantee. Overseas, on the average, they are generally around one-fourth to one-half of what the newsstands overseas charge locally for USA magazines. On some titles they are as little as one-tenth of what the newsstands charge. They feel that mgazines should not be a luxury overseas. In the USA, people buy magazines and then toss them after reading them for just a few minutes or hours. They are so cheap in the USA! Well, this company would like to make it the same way for their overseas members. They are also cheaper than all their competitors in the USA and overseas, including the publishers themselves! This is their price guarantee. Around one-half their business comes from overseas, so they are very patient with new members who only speak limited English as a 2nd language. Their prices are so cheap because they deal direct with each publisher and cut-out all the middlemen. They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that they sell. Please do not email me as I am just a happy customer and a *busy* student. I don't have time to even complete my thesis in time, let alone run my part-time software business! Please fill out the above form and carefully follow the intructions above to get it to them via fax or smail. They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet. They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it. They have been very helpful and helped me with all my address changes as I haved moved from one country to another. They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from a special list of over 270 popular titles published in the USA. They will give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular USA titles they sell. They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have clients in around 45 or 46 countries now. Outside the USA there is a charge for FPH (foreign postage and handling) (on both paid and freebie subs) that varies from magazine to magazine. I have found their staff to be very friendly and courteous. They even helped me with an address change when I moved from one country to another. The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members" (even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts as a new member. When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes he has one of his assistants call. He is kind of quirky sometimes - he insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!), but you can place future orders (after your first order) via E-mail. He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know just as much as he does about this magazine stuff. If you live overseas, he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long distance rates are cheaper then. He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing members and he does virtually no advertising. When I got set-up, they had a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately when you call. ) I think they are able to get back to prospective new members the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased their staff. I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above form to them, that is the way to get started! They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that they sell. They then send you email that outlines how his club works and the list of free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what he sells; and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly, no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and answer all your questions. Once you get in, you'll love them. I do. Sincerely, Jenny Conroy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:52:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Linda S. Valon" <102721.515@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: USDA course Here is a thought--some people who want to become indexers have absolutely no computer skills. When I enrolled in the USDA C-EDIT 360 in January, 1992, I planned to take the course using my IBM Selectric typewriter. I completed 7 of the 10 lessons in 1992, using the computers of friends. I received a one-year extension and completed lesson 8 before a major illness in March, 1993. In November, 1993 I tried to call up my lesson 9 file, but it was lost in a reconfigured program manager on my sister's work computer. She was in Puerto Rico. I felt completely lost as I walked out into the snowy night and the building door locked behind me, not to reopen for 6 weeks. But today I talked to Doris and Norma at the USDA, (202)720-7123, and registered for another extension. I say hurray for USDA! Those of us at the lower end of the bar graph really need all the understanding they extend. Yes, the course takes some of us four years to complete. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Linda Valon * "If you want to know how to do a thing, Indexing * Research * you must first have a complete desire 102721.515@compuserve.com * to do that thing." - Robert Henri ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:06:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Interesting place I found in a remote corner of the net In-Reply-To: <199605100054.RAA26636@spork.callamer.com> Just in case somebody might be under the impression that I am related to the person that sent the referenced message, be assured that I am not. Sonsie [sconroy@slonet.org] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 21:17:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: lillian ashworth Subject: USDA Course I've read with interest the current thread concerning the USDA Course, both notes from students and this morning's reply by Ms. Mulvany. From where I'm sitting (also waiting for feedback on my first batch of lessons), both sides of this discussion have merit. First, as to the faculty, perhaps you need a raise in pay. $5.15 per lesson hardly averages out to minimum wage, let alone professional scale for professional services (and we are being trained to be professionals). This also begs the question, what is happening to the other $22.85 per lesson that we are paying for tuition? Surely the USDA overhead can't amount to that much (?) According to my math and using Ms. Mulvany's figures of 548 lessons this quarter that crossed her desk, that means that a whopping $12,521.80 of students' paid tuition landed somewhere other than with Ms. Mulvany. Adding another 3 quarters to those figures, the total overhead for those 548 lessons adds up to $50,087.20. Multiply that figure by the five instructors she mentioned, that comes to $250,436 for administrative overhead. That figure seems on the high side, especially considering that CEDIT 360 is only one of several courses administered by the same agency. Perhaps increasing faculty pay to somewhere between $10 - $15 per lesson might be in order; surely a wage raise is long overdue. Even using the high end of that scale, that still leaves an administrative overhead of $142,480 for those same 548 lessons per quarter, per year, for 5 faculty members. As to the students, we paid our tuition dollars in advance and deserve to receive the course for which we paid. Many years ago I trained and worked in professional theater. The most important thing that we learned as aspiring and working theater people was that no matter how we felt or what was happening in our private lives, the audience sitting in front of the curtain paid their money for their tickets and they deserved the best performance we could give them, no matter what. I hope that all of us, students and faculty alike, can agree on several points: 1. There is merit in the course but there are also some very real proble ms that need to be addressed. 2. The faculty should receive more of our tuition dollars for their services. The current rate is approximately 18%; surely 50% would be more in line with the service they are providing. Is there something that we as students can do to promote a faculty raise? 3. The students deserve more timely responses concerning their lessons. We obviously all receive email. Perhaps there could be some student/faculty communication through these channels as to when to expect lessons back, etc. Finally, although this discourse has come about rather late to be an agenda item at the ASI Denver meetings, perhaps some informal discussion about the issues raised regarding the course and its future could take place. Lillian Ashworth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:08:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: USDA Basic Indexing course I got a note from Hazel Blumberg-McKee and I would like to reply to her statements: >It is truly a pity that you are so dissatisfied with Basic Indexing that >you have chosen to stop taking the course (at least, that's what I've >heard). And it's a pity that you expressed your utter dissatisfaction in >such a way that you unnecessarily frightened Basic Indexing students who, >thus far, have experienced no problems with the course. You seem to have misunderstood my criticisms of the Basic Editing course and my reasons for writing to the list. I am getting quite a lot from the course and have no intention to drop it. It takes a lot more than slow response time to discourage me from learning something new. I've been told that I can be downright dangerous when I put my mind to something but I'm not trying to flame or unfairly criticize anyone. I have offered only concrete criticisms for patently obvious problems that I have encountered. The content of course and the comments that I have gotten from my instructor have been succinct and helpful. The problems are with response times and the like. I have gotten email from a dozen or so other students and prospective students thanking me for speaking out on a subject that they were too shy to bring up because they are newcomers to the field. Prospective students have noted that they are glad that at least they were warned a head of time about slow response times and few commented that they might look for alternatives. Nancy Mulvany also posted to the Index List: In the first Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades <74744.415@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: USDA Course Lillian Ashworth wrote (and others expressed similar thoughts): >> what is happening to the other $22.85 per lesson that we are paying for tuition? Have you checked the cost of mailing those lessons around the country? If I understand correctly, the student mails the first lesson to USDA. USDA then sends the lesson and all supporting materials needed to track the student to the assigned instructor. After grading, the instructor sends the package back to USDA and, after recording the grade, USDA sends the package to the student. While the postage for some lessons may be only $0.32 each leg of the trip, the postage for index lessons could be as much as $3.00 each leg. Then there is the cost of the materials -- the books must be paid for, even at a discount. Let's not forget a share of the USDA administrative costs (staff, catalog, rent, etc.). From my days as a financial consultant, I would guess that USDA can't justify this course on the basis of a single student, that only the economy of scale makes it work. While Nancy Mulvany states that she graded 548 lessons in the first quarter, there is no basis for an extrapolation to the USDA gross income for a year. As has also been stated on this subject, some students, for a variety of reasons -- including many unrelated to "slow" turn around by instructors, can take far more than a year to complete this course. The USDA Graduate School is self-supporting. Again, quoting Nancy, USDA receives no tax dollars. >> We obviously all receive email. I doubt this. I don't know what the current membership of Index-L is but I know too many indexers, and especially USDA students, who have no e-mail connection. Take a look at the ASI membership roster. How many listings include an e-mail address? I recognize that this is probably none of my business. I've not taken, nor am I likely to take, the USDA course. It does, however, seemed to have consumed the list of late and I can no longer silently read some of the misstatements and exaggerations. Sure, there is a delay -- that is part & parcel when you opt for a correspondence course. I can remember my siblings completing their elementary & high school education by mail through, I believe, the University of Kansas when we lived in Africa. Even using Air Mail, it frequently took three months for lessons to be returned. They spent the time waiting pursuing related subjects. I know many USDA students who spend the turnaround time building a folio of indexes, reading ASI publications, studying the indexes in reference books at the library, and doing related activities (including becoming skilled computer operators and organizing an office) so as to establish themselves in the BUSINESS of indexing. They don't see the wait as "dead" time; they see it as an opportunity to further enhance their skills. Demand for this course has grown, especially in the past six months. But, to quote an old adage, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Change on the scale needed to reduce the current turnaround time cannot happen overnight. I suspect that there are some stressed out instructors reading these postings. It would be a shame to discourage the good work that they do. Just my opinions. Gale Rhoades ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:43:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hamilton, Beth" Subject: Re: USDA course (my .02 - long) Gale Rhodes wrote: <> "I suspect that there are some stressed out instructors reading these postings. It would be a shame to discourage the good work that they do." I have to jump in here too. I think it's really important to separate comments about how the course is administered from comments about the instructors. I haven't seem any comments that I thought were criticizing the quality of the instruction or the dedication of the instructors. I don't think we should be placing any blame here. I'm enrolled in the USDA course, and I've just received my first assignment back from my instructor. All the materials I've received from USDA and my instructor made it very clear that response time would vary greatly, and would not always be as quick as I might hope for. In fact, the materials that USDA sent me with the course catalog included a letter from Nancy Mulvany on that very issue. As she pointed out, it's very hard to plan your workload and make sure you've scheduled adequate time for grading lessons when you can't predict when your students will send them in. I'm doing this in addition to a full time job as a technical writer, on my own time, simply to become a better indexer of our software documentation (and we all know software companies need better indexers ). So the response time is not an issue for me. I can see why it would be for some people, but I feel that USDA and the instructors do the best they can to warn prospective students about that. I think it's important that we have top-notch professional indexers as instructors. If I wanted someone who just taught indexing but wasn't active in the field, there are probably lots of university courses available. But along with the insight we get from professional indexers, we also have to accept the fact that they have to first make a living. You can't have it both ways. I think the suggestion that the USDA raise the instructors' pay is valid, but I doubt if the instructors have much control over that. Even if they did, I _still_ don't want an instructor who makes a living from teaching this course. I want a professional indexer, and if that involves trade-offs, then so be it. I also hope that Nancy Mulvany's comment about looking for more indexers didn't get overlooked. From the discussions on this list, there are a lot more indexers who would make great instructors. More instructors would mean smaller student loads, thus shorter turnaround times. I really think that's the best solution. My .02 worth (or maybe a nickel), and thanks for letting me vent. Beth Hamilton elham@dbsoftware.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: USDA course >Beth Hamilton wrote: > >I have to jump in here too. I think it's really important to separate >comments about how the course is administered from comments about the >instructors. I haven't seem any comments that I thought were criticizing >the quality of the instruction or the dedication of the instructors. I >don't think we should be placing any blame here. I agree with you, that criticism of the process should not reflect on the hard-working instructors; unfortunately, there HAVE been some comments critical of instructors, to the effect that "they signed up to grade papers, they should allow time for it in their schedules...." Nancy Mulvany pointed out the fallacy in that reasoning, and the financial sacrifice a top professional makes to do this. With all due respect, and without minimizing the valid concerns, can the people who want to pursue this further in the SOLUTION space get on with it via email outside this list, please? Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:55:35 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jill B. Edwards" Subject: Re: USDA Course discussion My 2 cents on this discussion. I am also enrolled in the USDA course, and am only now (after a year and one half of major life interruptions) submitting my first lesson. IMHO, the USDA is offering a wonderful opportunity for learning (many of us would have no other way to learn indexing), the instructors certainly aren't doing it for the money and while I would love to finish in 3 months for financial reasons, I realize that won't happen. If anyone is familiar with the priciples of CQI/TQM, you know that solving a problem lies in discovering what is wrong with the 'process' and not in placing blame on individual persons or groups. Knowledge and understanding of the various points of view about this particular correspondence 'process' as a result of this ongoing discussion is a good first step. I also think Nancy's book is one of the best textbooks I have ever encountered--correspondence or otherwise. I am enjoying this learning experience very much. Jill Edwards Greendale, WI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:31:28 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: USDA course As a new indexer, a new member of ASI, and a probable student of the USDA course, I wish to see the discussion continue in this forum. If people are tired of it or find it irrelevant to their particular needs, they can simply trash without reading any message with USDA in the subject line. Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Index to Military Periodicals Maxwell AFB AL 36112 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:03:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing >Another consideration is that the standalone software available is DOS based. > At least the two most popular programs are DOS based. So it's easiest to >use them on a PC. However, they can be used on Apple systems with a software >emulator. Many people run their systems this way. And Macs with Power PC >chips can run DOS-based programs too. I have been posting for several months now about HyperIndex, which is stand-alone indexing software for the Mac (and only for the Mac). This info is also now in the FAQ for Index-L. So *please* do not mislead newcomers by saying, or implying, that they must use DOS-based indexing software. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:17:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Brown <75324.1707@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Indexing Computer Documentation I'm putting together a couple half day workshops for technical writers about how to index computer documentation. The first workshop focuses on embedded indexing (e.g. in FrameMaker 5) and the second looks at indexing online documentation (with emphasis on Windows 95 Help). I would appreciate any pointers or references to published materials. What traps and pitfalls should technical writers watch out for? Can we test the usability of an index in technical documentation? How does one create an index in an SGML document? What complications are involved in indexing large sets of manuals especially when different manuals or sections can be mixed and matched? Are there particular difficulties involved in indexing online documentation? Should hypertext linking be included? For example Windows 95 Help can generate "See also" hypertext links automatically from keywords. Are other search strategies available in Windows 95 relevant to indexing? Thank you. Fred Brown * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * McCrae Consulting Associates "technical writing and indexing" 75324.1707@compuserve.com Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 31 Grange Ave., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 0N8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Indexing Computer Documentation Fred: Don't forget to check out nancy Mulvany's article in THE INDEXER and her comments at the San Diego ASI conference about indexing with embedded-entry software. She has a good handle on all the pitfalls. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:32:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses In-Reply-To: <199605092215.PAA11486@spork.callamer.com> I heartily endorse Nancy Mulvaney's book, and the idea of hiring a professional indexer to guide your practice. It may be expensive, but if you do the right groundwork, you needn't spend a fortune on professional advice. I've always suggested to those who ask that they try indexing a chapter or two of a book that already has a good index--without looking at it first, of course--and then check their work against the pro's. This can be very enlightening. You may find you really don't like indexing, once you've tried it. Or you may discover that you really enjoy it. Finally, checking your work against a good indexer's can really help you improve. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: USDA Basic Indexing course In-Reply-To: <199605100609.XAA19408@spork.callamer.com> Beth, I hope you got Hazel's permission before you quoted what appears to be her private message to you. It's not good netiquette to disclose the contents of private e-mail without the sender's permission. Someone else has made the point, far more eloquently than I, that it is very necessary to distinguish between the administrative problems that the USDA course may have and what appears to be its excellent content and devoted, professional teachers. I'm not familiar with the course myself, but if the endless waits for returned lessons are commonplace, then it appears to me that there IS a problem there. And goodness! The pay is barely even minimal! Far less than we normally make doing indexing itself. I'd love to see the problems solved and the pay rate increased. The course seems like a very worthy endeavor, and the folks involved in it I know to be extremelyh knowledgeable and professional. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 19:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing Computer Documentation In a message dated 96-05-10 16:35:25 EDT, you write: >Can we test the >usability of an index in technical documentation? I used to do usability tests on indexes for IBM. There are several techniques. First and easiest is a review of form and accuracy by an expert indexer. Check page numbers, index style, etc. A more sophisticated techinque is to test the index in the hands of real users. There are several scenarious for this type of test. 1. Take a random sample of pages, give them to users, have them mark the words and concepts that they consider important. Verify that you have included same in your index. 2. Give them a complete book and a list of common tasks. Ask them to find the information necessary to perform each task. Have them verbalize what they are looking for. They should find each item in less than three attempts. 3. Have an experienced user review the index and identify topics that are missing, inappropriate, incorrectly identified, etc. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:30:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: USDA course In-Reply-To: <199605101551.IAA13587@spork.callamer.com> Larry, I'm not sure why you feel the discussion of the USDA course ought to be taken off-list. Even though I am not a pupil or an instructor, I'm finding it quite interesting. And those that don't...well, that's what the delete key is for. As far as I know, the USDA doesn't maintain any sort of Internet presence in this regard, so it's not like there is another forum in which to discuss improvements. I vote to retain this thread. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Izzykatz@AOL.COM Subject: internet virus Hey, guys, Scott brought home a memo from work warning of a virus family named Trojan Horse w/has a history of being distributed on AOL.They are not detectable by virus scanning programs as they mimic executable files.They will wipe out your hard drive & screw up your modem. Do not download any files that claim to double your RAM or processor speeds or any unauthorrized release of new software versions. Names to watch out for: HAPPYDAY.ZIP PKZIP300.ZIP PKZ300B.ZIP TREE.COM FREEZE13.COM They use the names above to make it appear as if they are a new version of the PKZIP software used to compress files. There is not yet a way to clean this virus. Kepp in touch, y'all! *Anara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Do Mi Stauber Subject: Re: Editing time/charging by entry Carolyn wrote: > My question is, is my editing time >typical for an index of this size? Do any of you routinely track the >percentage of time you spend on the final edit? I keep track of *everything*. Editing time as related to subject entry time or length of book varies so widely that I have a terrible time predicting how much time to leave for it. But mostly it's two to four hours. However, on the latest 98-page index I did, I spent 20 hours making entries and 9.3 hours editing (ie almost half again the time). This tends to happen when there's a lot of technical complexity (like your pinyin terms and names) or when it's an academic book with subject matter is very complex and organically organized, and I have to take the whole structure apart and put it back together again! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Editing time/charging by entry In a message dated 96-05-11 13:30:25 EDT, Do Mi flabbergasted me by writing: >However, on the >latest 98-page index I did, I spent 20 hours making entries and 9.3 hours >editing (ie almost half again the time). You created an index of 98 pages in just 20 hours?!!!!! Inquiring minds want to hear your techniques!!! ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:12:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses Barbara, I'll see your 2 cents and raise you 2. >As Carol Roberts mentions, hiring a private consultant could >easily cost you hundreds of dollars. But you get what you pay >for! There are a number of professional indexers who gladly >provide comments on beginning indexers' work, and the feedback >is probably lots faster than the USDA course. But you still have >to contend with the schedules of the freelancer's primary clients. Right, but you would probably have a much better idea what to expect when you "contract" with that consultant. You could, for example, look around for an indexer who is able, for whatever reason, to promise a one-week turnaround time. Presumably, an indexer who has only one student is in a much better position to make such a promise than the USDA instructor is, who apparently has no control over how many students are assigned to her or him. > >I have been assisting people for 5 years by reviewing indexes, >and no indexer can afford to consider this as an alternate >income! As Nancy points out, we do it as a labor of love for the >profession. We ask to be compensated for our time, but in my >experience, if I bill for 10 hours of consulting, I might have >put in double that time thinking about what to say and how to >say it best. If I hired a consultant, I would expect her to charge me for the actual time she put in, which should include the time it takes to think. I still think that you should be able to get quite a lot for your $260. (Here I'm talking about actually hiring a coach for several weeks, not merely asking an indexing to give a quick look at one index.) > >In this light, I would aslo like to elaborate on Nancy's point >about reviewing all those indexes: in my experience, every indexer >makes different "beginners' errors." You could not possible have >anything like a canned response... each critique must be written >from scratch because of the unique combination of problems that >might occur (I have a checklist I use, but frankly, it's the >starting point and not much more useful than that). Yes, that's certainly true. But I don't see how it bears on the suggestion to hire a consultant. Of course, a consultant wouldn't have, and shouldn't be expected to have, canned responses, either. > >So, although we indexers are glad to help train new indexers and >provide commentary, we cannot always provide the speedy service >that you might like. We can provide carefully worded constructive >criticism. If you can wait for it, you might find it worth >waiting for. And my point is that not everyone wants to wait over a year to finish a basic course, and hiring a consultant/coach might be a good alternative. From what you and Nancy and others have said, it seems that the demand for the USDA course now exceeds the supply, in the sense that instructors have too many students to be able to return assignments in a way that meets students' sometimes pressing needs. If that is so, it is worth discussing alternatives, which is what I'm trying to do. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 15:48:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses Carol, and others, Carol - I like your idea of reading, self-tutoring, and then hiring a consultant. I think that's a viable way to go. I can see where it would not appeal to everybody, but I think it is workable. I think the nub of the discussion is as you said -- the demand has overshot the supply right now as far as the USDA course, and the timing of the class can ( not *is* -- but *can*) be a problem to some. So again, I'd encourage anybody thinking about learning indexing to try to find a way that suits their time frame, and go for it. If the USDA class is too slow, know in advance what you will be getting into, and look for a different way to learn indexing. Any corrective action on the part of the USDA folks won't be immediate, so for the present, that's what we're going to have to deal with. There's nothing wrong with trying to find a local indexer who is willing to act as private tutor and mentor. It's actually an excellent way to go. And it should be workable money-wise, if the student is willing to begin working on simple tasks to work off some of the fee, too. There's more than one way to skin a cat! (uh-ohh ... I've been criticized by cat-lovers for using that expression -- if you're one, please excuse. It says it sooo well!) Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 20:50:18 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Bibliographic refs in text Thanks for all the inputs. As I figured, my editor didn't have a clue as to any standard practice, but said the author was very easygoing during the editing process (there are language barriers because he's Nigerian), and probably wouldn't mind regardless of what I choose to do. The other thing I don't know yet is the size allotted for the index, so I've decided to put in the people who are discussed extensively or repeatedly, and whose names appear outside of parentheses, particularly if the first name is given. Your comments were very valuable. Thanks again. Joanne Clendenen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 09:40:03 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Bibliographical references in text I hope it's not too late to contribute to this thread. I have indexed a good many social science books in which the authors of cited material are named in the text. Very often such references are given in the Harvard style, i.e. "Bloggs (1994) argues . . ." or ". . . blah blah blah (Bloggs, 1994)". Whether the cited author's name appears inside or outside the parentheses, my policy has usually been to exclude all such names *unless* the author's works are the principal source of the concepts or theories or arguments or proposals (or whatever) under discussion. Consider the following sentence, which appears under the subheading "Managerialism and the New Public Management" in the first chapter of _Reshaping the State: New Zealand's Bureaucratic Revolution_ (1991): "In addition to public choice theory, agency theory, and transaction-cost analysis, the public sector reform programme in New Zealand has been influenced by a closely related set of ideas variously referred to as corporate management, the new managerialism, and the managerialist revolution (Aucoin, 1990; Caiden, 1988; Considine, 1988; Davis, Weller and Lewis, 1989; Gunn, 1988; Painter, 1988; Yeatman, 1987)." None of these authors appear in the index. The index does, however, have subject entries for "managerialism" and "New Public Management" and does also have entries for the names of politicians, public servants, chairmen of commissions, union officials, etc., many of whom are also authors of works cited in the text, but who are indexed because they were real movers and shakers in the bureaucratic revolution, not mere academic commentators on the sidelines. In other books, though, I have routinely indexed such big-name authors as John Maynard Keynes, James Q. Wilson, Frederick Winslow Taylor, John Stuart Mill, Milton Friedman, Donald Kettl, etc. Academic purchasers who wish to see if a book cites the literature they want to use in their courses should (and, I think, would) examine the bibliography or list(s) of references rather than the index. I concede that a different inclusion/exclusion policy might be appropriate for some exceptional works, but I would be horrified if I was asked to include the names of all cited authors in the indexes of the books I work on in the humanities and social sciences, many of which---especially in the social sciences---seem to me to be grotesquely over-referenced. I am really rather tired of seeing sentences in this form: "Social scientists have a bad habit of making contentious and thoroughly dubious assertions and then backing them up with inadequate Harvard-style references (Bloggs, 1996)." From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton 2001, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229. E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 19:15:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: USDA Basic Indexing course Sonsie Conroy noted in her email message: >Beth, I hope you got Hazel's permission before you quoted >what appears to >be her private message to you. It's not good netiquette to >disclose the >contents of private e-mail without the sender's permission. Yes, Mom. I have permission to quote her letter to the list. ;) I agree with you 100%. The problems are with the system. What we need from the people (students, instructors, and administrators) is flexibility and a willingness to innovate. Those of you in ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 22:24:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Book recommendation: Inc Your Dreams A few months ago I was listening to a radio interview with the theme "women starting their own businesses". The discussion was so good that I found myself taking notes; on page proofs of course. The book in question was "Inc Your Dreams" by Rebecca Maddox from Viking Press. Put this in the "business of indexing" category. I bought the book and have found it inspirational and challenging to many assumptions. With the influx of new indexers, I have a feeling that there are at least a few people struggling less with "how do I become an indexer" than "how do I start my own business and achieve a measure of self-determination in a crazy mixed-up world". If that's the case then perhaps something in Rebecca's words may be a catalyst. Here are her major points: 1) Each business success is unique. Successful business people don't always have that much in common in terms of skills. Forget those "10 traits of successful business people" lists. A shocking statement at first, at least I hope it is! Later on she makes it clear that the reason for this is that each business success represented a reflection of something special *within that person* and was a unique expression of that individual's identity rather than some objective skill-set. 2) Don't fall in love with an idea: ideas don't make businesses, people do. I used to listen to radio talk-show guru-of-all-business-knowledge Bruce Williams. One of the continuing themes is people calling up for advice on starting a business. You can immediately tell the ones who are "in love with an idea". They're secretive and evasive about their question, afraid that if their precious idea is leaked someone else will steal it. This jibes with the popular notion of starting a business: that it involves coming up with the "better mousetrap". Well guess what? Bruce is almost clairvoyant about such issues, and in many of the cases he is actually able after a few questions to discover their idea! And then guess what: in the majority of the cases he proceeds to give the person the complete history of how it's been tried and it doesn't work because.... To truly understand this scenario, picture these people, going to their 9-5 jobs year-in and year-out, holding on to a "dream" and an "idea", only to discover they had wasted years of their life by "falling in love with an idea". 3) Don't do it alone. The importance of an "I believe in you person". 4) Businesses are always a work-in-progress, constantly changing. 5) Invest in yourself. We talk about all sorts of insurance to protect our material assets when we neglect things like: eating right, sleeping enough, and exercising to protect the most important asset of all: us. Burnout erodes the value of successful people. 6) You get what you measure. If your goal is to be happy, how will you know when you're there? Set goals that can be measured and **write them down**. [A famous study of Harvard grads showed that having written goals was the best predictor of success in life, better even than intelligence] 7) Choose the life that's right for you. Owning your own business may not be right for you after all. Ms. Maddox says be an innerpreneur: from the inside out. Rather than an idea, a business is built on the values, dreams, and aspirations of a unique human being. A good idea helps too, but the world is full of rich people who capitalized on mediocre ideas, and losers with stupendous ideas. She offers a series of self-examination exercises to help people discover their inner business person. A friend who's thinking of starting a business is borrowing my copy or I'd include even more tidbits [on second thought this was a pretty long post!]. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:07:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Do Mi Stauber Subject: Re: Editing time/charging by entry Lynn wrote: >You created an index of 98 pages in just 20 hours?!!!!! Inquiring minds want >to hear your techniques!!! ;-D > Gosh, is that unusually fast? I'm just starting to hear that from people when we compare speeds. I think a lot of the reason is that I read and take in information extremely fast. Other than that, I use Macrex very intuitively, editing as I go; I don't mark the pages (shades of that other thread!) but just tick off subjects I'm entering; I scan pages first (and take in a lot from the scan) before going back to make individual entries. It's funny, it's hard to figure out what makes me fast because I don't know if I'm doing something differently from other people...that's why these discussions are so fascinating! I'll have to think about this some more but I'm leaving for Denver in the morning and I can't find my list of questions about Macrex!! Hope to see some of you there! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 07:38:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Colin Izat <100265.2771@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Main Headings RE: Copy of: Main headings Can anyone explain which of the 2 examples below is correct? 1. 2. drilling areas, fire detection drilling drilling curve areas, fire detection drilling discharges curve discharges Example 1 uses the principle that each entry is a different subject , while example 2 treats these subjects as 'aspects' of drilling. Yours confused! Katie Izat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:00:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Editing time/charging by entry In a message dated 96-05-13 00:15:14 EDT, you write: >>You created an index of 98 pages in just 20 hours?!!!!! Inquiring minds want >>to hear your techniques!!! ;-D >> > >Gosh, is that unusually fast? I consider myself fast. I specialize in computer books and can do over 20 pages per hour on certain books. I average about one page of index per 20 pages of text. A 98-page index would indicate a book of about 2,000 pages and would take me about 100 hours. Yes, 20 hours is extremely fast. What size book were you working on? What topic? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:21:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Leise Subject: Re: Main Headings >1. 2. >drilling areas, fire detection drilling >drilling curve areas, fire detection >drilling discharges curve discharges Colin Izat asked about these two versions of the main heading. Based on Hans Wellisch's discussion of preparing headings, number 1 is currect. The fact that each entry begins with drilling does not indicate that they are (very) closely related. Take a look at the main words of the entry. What is being discussed are areas, curves and discharges, not drilling per se. Version two begins to set up a subject heirarchy, which is not what an index is. To quote Wellisch, "Classification is in many respects fundamental to indexing as well as to any other information retrieval technique, but it ought not to be employed in the arrangement of topical index headings. The main reason for this is that, however 'logical' or 'natural' a classified arrangement in hierarchical form may seem to be to the classifier, it may not be so to other people who are not privy to the principles of division and subdivision employed by the maker of the classification." (See his discussion under "Classified Order" on page 39 of _Indexing from A to Z_. Hope this helps. Fred Leise "Betweein the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:31:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Main Headings Fred's reminder of Hans Wellisch's discussion on the topic of hierarchical arrangements in an index was most welcome. I'll have to look for the reference and re-read it. To me, the deciding factor in such a case is not grouping terms under one keyword, ie, hierarchically, but what the subject matter of each term is, and what the terminology in the field of expertise is. If the subjects being discussed are essentially different, it doesn't matter that they begin with the same word. Each subject should have its own main entry. I recently indexed a book in the firefighting field,a book that was focused on the use of chemical foams to put out fires -- how to use them, when to use them, properties and uses of different foams, differing needs for different fires. Believe me, I didn't put everything under Foam, with a skillion subheads. How foolish that would look! And how not-useful to the searcher using your index. The entries looked something like this Foam (had general references only, such as advantages of using foam) Foam application Foam concentrates Foam delivery equipment Foam nozzles You get the idea. When discussing Foam delivery equipment or Foam nozzles, for example, you are not discussing foam. You are discussing the equipment used to apply the foam. So the entry should read Foam delivery equipment or Foam nozzles, not Foam, delivery equipment The important thing here is what is how to lead the reader to what is being discussed in the text. Your index is a roadmap back into the text. To say that Foam is being discussed would be misleading. What is being discussed is Foam application or Foam safety, etc Once you think along these lines, an essential problem is solved -- how to break up a long listing of subheads under the entry that corresponds to the main subject matter of the book. Once you think this way, the entries are divided up and the big block of entries goes away. I hope this helps new indexers out there who are wondering about this. Sometimes it is difficult to find your way out of the "it seems as if the entire book will be indexed under one term - the title of the book" problem. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:14:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: USDA Basic Indexing course In-Reply-To: <199605122314.QAA14943@spork.callamer.com> Beth quotes me... > Sonsie Conroy noted in her email message: > > >Beth, I hope you got Hazel's permission before you quoted >what appears to > >be her private message to you. It's not good netiquette to >disclose the > >contents of private e-mail without the sender's permission. And then, to my chagrin, says... > Yes, Mom. I have permission to quote her letter to the list. ;) Sorry, Beth! But I really felt I had to bring it up since this has been an ongoing problem in online groups like this--causing huge flamewars to break out. > I agree with you 100%. The problems are with the system. What we need from > the people (students, instructors, and administrators) is flexibility and a > willingness to innovate. Those of you in Help! This is all that came through of the last paragraph. I am hanging on your lips, metaphorically speaking. :-) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:51:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "H. Fyfield" Subject: Hyperindex I am seeking the name & address of the gentleman who has authored the Mac-friendly indexing software Hyperindex. May I please hear from him or from anyone else who knows how to contact him. TIA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:46:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Catalog indexes I received a call a few months ago from a company that wanted an index for its catalog. Apparently, its previous indexer was no longer available. I submitted a verbal bid based on the only experience I have had, which is a per page charge. I did make one follow-up call, but it failed to produce business. I don't recall exactly what was said, but I got the strong feeling that my bid was way out of line. (It would not have been outrageously high for a trade book or scholarly book.) Is there anyone on the list who is willing to share experience in the pricing of catalog indexes? Do you charge by the item? By the page? TIA, Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:09:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: volunteer for member profile? Calling all members of ASI, but especially members of the Twin Cities chapter: In every issue of our chapter newsletter, we run a one-page profile of a member. These profiles help us get to know one another, so that members' knowledge of each other isn't restricted to members who can get to meetings. Profiles usually tell what our work lives are like, how they fit with the rest of our lives, and how we got into indexing, not necessarily in that or any order. Now for the request: I'm running low on people I know personally and can beg to write profiles of themselves. Is there anyone out there who's willing to write about a page (two columns of 12-point Palatino) about her/his indexing life in the next two weeks, to run in an issue to be mailed early in June? This list has always come through for me in miraculous fashion. Let's see if it can do it one more time. Thanks in advance to all. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:47:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: 'Nother book recommendation I don't mean to be copying you, Kevin. But I just got this great book from Quality Paperback Books, and I wanted to share the news with those of you who index books on literature (or just enjoy lit. yourselves). The book is _Merriam Webster's Encyclopedia of Literature_. It's a whopping 1,236 pages, cost around $20 (through the book club, that is; I make no promises), and includes stuff like: authors, works, terms, literary forms and genres, children's lit., literary characters, journals, prizes, illustrations. In case anybody wants to look for it, the ISBN is 0-87779-042-6. It was published in 1995. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:47:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: USDA Indexing Courses >I've always suggested to those who ask that they try indexing a chapter or >two of a book that already has a good index--without looking at it first, >of course--and then check their work against the pro's. This can be very >enlightening. You may find you really don't like indexing, once you've >tried it. Or you may discover that you really enjoy it. Finally, checking >your work against a good indexer's can really help you improve. Sonsie, do you (or others) have a list of books that have good indexes? Newbies aren't necessarily in the best position to judge the quality of somebody else's index, and (typically) the indexer isn't identified. >The pay is barely >even minimal! Far less than we normally make doing indexing itself. > >I'd love to see the problems solved and the pay rate increased. The course >seems like a very worthy endeavor, and the folks involved in it I know to >be extremelyh knowledgeable and professional. As I recall, Nancy ended her post regarding the turnaround time with an invite to experienced to become instructors. It has been a recurring theme on this list that we are professionals and should charge professionals' rates, so why the double standard for teaching? I'd be amazed if Nancy got any takers for teaching the USDA course after posting the fee she earns. >Larry, I'm not sure why you feel the discussion of the USDA course ought >to be taken off-list. Even though I am not a pupil or an instructor, I'm >finding it quite interesting. And those that don't...well, that's what the >delete key is for. Right, the USDA course is certainly not off-topic for this list. Let's not move it off-list, where newcomers won't read it. I mean, it's not like we've digressed to birdwatching or our favorite movies or whatever. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 15:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Mulrooney Subject: Philadelphia Chapter TAPSCO tour and luncheon The Philadelphia chapter of ASI will meet for lunch at noon on Wednesday, June 5 at the Akron Restaurant in Lancaster Co. Pa. Following the luncheon there will be a tour of TAPSCO, Inc., a full-range electronic prepress company. Call Ann Cassar for details, directions, and RSVP so she can get an idea how many people will be eating. Her number is (610) 459-2380. Sorry I won't see any of you Philly folks there, I'll be suffering on the beach at Corolla, NC above Duck. I'm really disappointed too as these folks are one of my clients. Kevin Mulrooney for Ann Cassar ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:42:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: good indexes For anyone wanting to try Sonsie's suggestion to index a book without looking at the published index first: Why not use Wilson Award winners? The complete list is available on ASI's web page. URL: http://www.well.com/user/asi/. The link to the list is at the bottom of the first section of headings. Onward to Denver! Neva = < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > =*=<+> Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com PO Box 2157, Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 voice/fax +1-512-244-2767 & Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199, Round Rock, TX 78680-2199 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:23:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: List of books with good indexes >> On Tue, 14 May 1996 10:47:26 -0500, Carol Roberts said: C> Sonsie, do you (or others) have a list of books that have good indexes? Check out any of the O'Reilly Nutshell books. For example, "Essential System Administration", ISBN 1-56592-127-5. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Usability testing If anyone wants to follow up on my earlier posting about usability testing of indexes, I will be at the conference this weekend. I am conducting a round table on Indexing Computer Manuals and, while I'm not specifically including testing material, I am open to questions. Or catch me between sessions. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:32:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Catalog indexes Craig I do several catalogs on a regular basis. My per page charge is much higher than for textbooks. Generally there is many more entries per page even though though wise catalogs can be easy to index. Sandi Schroeder Schroeder Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 16:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: last minute room available Wed night INDEX-Lers- I have an extra bed tomorrow (Wednesday 15th) at the conference. My roomie had an unfortunate health problem and can't travel, so no conference for her. :-( I know it's late, but I guess it doesn't hurt to try. If you want to share, call me tonight (Tues) at 512-244-2767; or leave a message at the hotel desk or on the conference message board. TTFN, Neva = < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > =*=<+> Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com PO Box 2157, Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 voice/fax +1-512-244-2767 & Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199, Round Rock, TX 78680-2199 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 20:03:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Catalog indexes I would think that catalogue indexing would be higher-paying as there are aspects of it that are not found in 'normal' indexing. I submit, as a case in point, my J.C. Penney catalogue. Now, I'm sure they can afford to have as good and detailed an index as they want, but the index is perfectly dreadful from a customer's standpoint. I have come to the conclusion that their shoddy index is intentional--they want the customer to have to hunt around and look at more and more pages of merchandise. It's not to their benefit to direct me immediately to the children's socks page if they can instead make me look at (and perhaps purchase) the children's swimwear, raincoats, etc., first. They hide the index, too, among pages of warranties and tire-rim sizes. I would imagine that the ability to make customers flip through extra pages, and stopping just short of making most of them angry, would be a very fine art. I got socks from Lands' End instead. Allison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 22:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: USDA Basic Indexing course Sonsie let me know that my message got et: >> I agree with you 100%. The problems are with the system. What we need from >> the people (students, instructors, and administrators) is flexibility and a >> willingness to innovate. Those of you in >Help! This is all that came through of the last paragraph. I am hanging >on your lips, metaphorically speaking. :-) Whoops. There isn't very much missing. I just wanted to encourage all the folks teaching, administering, and taking the correspondence courses to keep talking about how to make the courses better. The corporate world is currently on this fad of "total quality." What they mean by that is continuous improvement and they achieve ongoing improvement by working together at all levels. We can learn a thing or two from them. I 'm really sorry that I can't come to the meetings in Denver but I hope that you'all who are going will have the chance to work on some of the great ideas that people have brought up on the list. I'll get off my soap box now and wish you all a great time. Denver is a great city to visit. Have fun. Beth Tudor