From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 29-JUN-1996 06:32:12.11 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606C" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 06:11:35 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9606C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:04:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 13 Jun 1996 to 14 Jun 1996 I just wanted to say also regarding Mary's post that she said she was new to Index-L, not new to indexing chemistry books. In my very humble opinion, I felt that Mary was jumped upon unfairly. I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers by saying so. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:30:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Technical Indexing Rachel Rice writes: >I just wanted to say also regarding Mary's post that she said she was new >to Index-L, not new to indexing chemistry books. In my very humble opinion, >I felt that Mary was jumped upon unfairly. I hope I'm not ruffling any >feathers by saying so. Reviewing comments by Rachel, Kevin, Lynn and others, I think there is something to think seriously about. I would not dispute Kevin's view that indexing highly technical material requires preparation; certainly an advanced degree is the best preparation. As someone with extensive technical background in the computer industry, I would say the same about computer science books and computer programming books (though not about user guides and "dummy" books). I would also not dispute the alternative view presented by Lynn, which is that there are several paths to attain the necessary qualifications to index such books. However, she also allows that someone can produce a horrible index if the preparation is not diligent enough or not successful for some other reason. The two issues this brings to my mind are: 1) How does the indexer who is trying to diligently prepare and learn about indexing technical material know whether s/he has successfully prepared, and is producing a quality product? For that matter, leave aside the technical content, and ask the same question of an indexer doing ANY kind of indexing. 2) How does the client know whether the person accepting an assignment to index a technical book (or, any book) know whether the person has done the necessary preparation, and is capable of sufficient understanding to produce a usable index? While there are pragmatic answers to both these questions (1 - peer review of your indexes; 2 - as a client, ask for resume, references and samples) there is another possibility (I just love to kick hornet's nests once in a while) and that is (drum roll and fanfare) indexer certification. I know that one's view of certification seems to correlate strongly with how established one is in the business. Depending on where you sit, certification could be seen as: 1) a way to jump-start the career of someone who is good at tests but has not indexed professionally; the wannabe sees a path to an income, the old pro sees unfair competition; 2) a way to expose people with large and undeserved reputations who may not be very good at what they do; the old pro sees inflexible, subjective judges and the potential ruin of a long career, the struggling newbie sees the advent of a meritocracy. So, the problems remain unsolved, index quality remains a subject for argument more than for explication and learning, and clients (and indexers!) continue to gather horror stories. OK, flame away. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:09:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: chemical compounds In-Reply-To: <199606142111.OAA15106@spork.callamer.com> On Fri, 14 Jun 1996 JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > Jumping into the fray re indexing scientific/technical material without a > heavy science background (which I have), let me say that if one attempts > that, one had best be a quick learner, meticulous researcher, and have good > friends who are tech/sci indexers. ;-) Also, this is not a task for the > faint of heart. Although possible, it is best left to a very experienced > indexer, and is not a good idea for a relatively new indexer. In that case, > I would counsel the new indexer to stick to more familiar material, for the > sake of both the publishers/authors in this world and for the indexer's own > reputation's sake. Janet, when I tackled this textbook, I had already had over 20 years of indexing experience behind me, and even then I knew it was an enormous challenge. So I certainly hope I did not leave the impression that a newbie could take on a job like this and create an acceptable index. > As for rates for that type of indexing, you said: > > > I would not tackle a job like that again for less than $4 or > > $4.50 a page, and I bet an experienced indexer would charge even more. It > > was incredibly painstaking, complex, and LENGTHY! > > I wish! I'm glad you appreciate the complexity and difficult of preparing an > index in upper level physical sciences. I wish more editors and publishers > did! As in many other areas of our field, the pay rate is often NOT > commensurate with the difficult of the material, the skill of the indexer, or > the tightness of the deadline. The $4-$4.50 rate you posited is not the > norm. It is possible, it happens ..... but it's the exception rather than > the rule. We still have an uphill fight on our hands there. Just before I took on this job, I had attended an indexing conference in SoCal, where one panel was devoted to discussing scientific and medical indexing. The panel members, who all had experience in this field, stated that $4 a page (and up) was more or less a standard fee...which is why I asked only $3.50--since I knew I was inexperienced. Perhaps these indexers just worked with better-paying clients, or larger companies? I don't know. But I would not take on a job like that again for LESS than the $3.50 I charged, and probably not for less than $4. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:49:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing unfamiliar subjects (was Re: chemical compounds) In a message dated 96-06-14 17:26:05 EDT, Anne wrote: >Lynn - We (Rob Rudnick and I, who, along with my mother and another friend, work >together as EdIndex) were very impressed by your thoughtful reply about >indexing unfamiliar subjects. I plead guilty, myself, to having indexed a book on >space-time physics of which I understood not one word. I really did just rely >on grammar, and just a little research, but the author seemed to like it. Anne, Thank you! (Wow! All of those folks liked what I said? ;-D) It sounds like you did a great job on that space-time physics book. After all, if the author liked it and we could assume that the author would know the subject, you did fantastic work! (Geesh! I can see you now grappling with the fine points of Einstein's general and special theories of relativity there! ;-D) > I'm sure, though, that it left a lot to be desired. There's no question that >knowledge of the subject matter can make a big difference, but it isn't >absolutely essential, for what we do is a distinct skill. Our primary >expertise is in the organization of information, not in the content of the information >itself. Bingo!!! I think it would be very difficult to make a living as an indexer if we tackled only those subjects with which we are conversant. I used to work as a technical writer and I see quite a parallel between that field of work and indexing in that one has to confront and competently handle a body of information about which you haven't a clue. (I remember telling an engineer that I didn't have any background in pneumatics or hydraulics when I met him to work on a book I was going to write describing a steam valve he designed. He laughed, saying it was OK as he knew nothing about steam, so we'd be learning the subject together! Somehow his valve worked and so did the manual I wrote. ;-D) In fact, despite having a background in electronics, it was a challenge to write manuals for technicians on the subject because usually I had to reverse engineer schematics and calculate circuit values to write chapters on how the equipment actually worked. The mental process was, in a way, similar to indexing in having to pick the thing apart to figure out what's going on. ;-D Plus, I wouldn't be at all surprised if this same issue of tackling unfamiliar material arose among copyeditors. >Moreover, there is no reason to discourage indexers from taking on >new challenges. Your reply was in the best spirit of supportive, and genuinely >helpful, advice. Thank you. Anne Holmes > I honestly believe that without new challenges, we could actually stagnate as indexers. After a spate of books on subjects that I've indexed over and over, I start to feel mentally asleep while cranking out entries that I've written oodles of times before. The process of wrestling with material for which we don't already have an existing intellectual superstructure truly forces us, IMHO, to constantly refine and hone our skills in organizing information (let alone our reading comprehension skills ;-D). Sonsie alluded to this in a way when she described her molecular biology book that left her exhausted but wanting to learn more. It's partly that "hunger" for more, IMHO, that fuels our growth as indexers. Thanks again! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 16:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Pricing I also feel as if I'm missing something. I too always charge by the page. So my quote to them is a per-page quote; they know exactly how much that will be when they know how many pages the book will be; it's not my job to figure out what the full dollar amount will be. And presumably they can compare my per-page quote with those of other indexers. I've never had any trouble doing it this way. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 16:15:57 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Indexers' web pages I thank everyone who sent me their Web page URL . The following list is as comprehensive as I could get at this point (hint--send me more). I have created a link on my page to other indexers on the Web, so if you'd like to be duly noted there, send me an email with your URL. Thanks again, Cynthia Bertelsen Cynthia Bertelsen http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html Bero-West Indexing Services http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero Larry S. Bonura http://rampages.onramp.net/%7Ewordwork/larryb.htm Virgil Diodato http://www.slis.uwm.edu/diodato/ Robin B. James http://www.halcyon.com/robinja/ Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan Julie Kawabata http://www.teleport.com/~jkawa Lise E. Kreps http://www.oz.net/%7Elise/RESUME.HTM Diane W. Lacey http://www.nauticom.net/www/dwlacey/resume.htm Seth Maislin http://jasper.ora.com/seth/ Nancy Mulvany http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/ncm.htm Rachel Rice http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ Wright Information Indexing Service http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 17:08:07 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Date of my last message Please be assured that I sent that last message, re: Indexers' Web Pages, today, June 15, 1996. For some reason, my computer clock got nostalgic for a year ago and... The information in that message is current, in other words. Cynthia Bertelsen Indexer http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daveream@AOL.COM Subject: looking for examples Although a little of point for this list, I know there are a lot of erudite people and with all the publications that pass under your eyes I'm sure you all have seen what I'm looking for. Which is examples of oxymorons and "power redundancies". Oxymorons are of course phrases such as "civil war", "good grief", or one of my personal favorites: "the four corners of the globe"! By power redundancies (for which I know no better term) I mean phrases such as "the whole gamut" or "really unique". Thanx in advance for any assistance, Dave Ream >> Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. << ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:41:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Date of my last message In a message dated 96-06-15 19:13:35 EDT, Cynthia write: >Please be assured that I sent that last message, re: Indexers' Web Pages, >today, June 15, 1996. For some reason, my computer clock got nostalgic for >a year ago and... Just wait til 3-1/2 years from now and all of our computers will become nostalgic for 100 years ago. ;-D (BTW, you may want to check your CMOS battery.) [BTW, BTW, that list of indexers' URLs is definitely a keeper! Thanks!] {BTW cubed: apparently the date/time stampers on the Net are up to date. Your message is dated '96. Or is it now '97 and I'm in real trouble with indexes overdue by a year?} Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:01:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Indexers' web pages In-Reply-To: <199606152307.QAA14605@spork.callamer.com> Cynthia, thanks so much for putting together this list. I plan on taking a "trip" through the Web and admiring everybody's efforts--and I expect to learn a lot as well. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 05:55:48 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: England/Britain/Scotland At 08:08 11/06/96 -0700, Margaret wrote: >Can't help a wee comment....... the Scottish people are "the >Scots". > >Scottish describes THINGS from Scotland..... We drink Scotch. > >remember "Mary, Queen of Scots"! > >A Scot, > >Margaret :-) And what about Scotch eggs? ;-) Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 14:14:20 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter Subject: Re[2]: England/Britain/Scotland At 1996-06-16.1404, Jonathan wrote: > And what about Scotch eggs? ;-) To scotch those who would also care to mention Scotch tape, Scotch broom and Scotch pine, the Scotch opening in chess, Scotch verdicts, and Scotch woodcock -- not to mention Sir Walter Scott, Dred Scott and other great Scots like Duns Scotus, I'll try to scottische my way out of this fray like a Scottish terrier and hope to get off scot-free. .............Paul Carpenter (no relation to astronaut Scott C~.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:32:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Query: name treatment I am facing a conundrum about the treatment of a name in a biography of Virginia Woolf I am indexing. Background: following the author's usage, Vanessa Stephen (Virginia's sister) is referred to throughout the index as Vanessa Bell (her married name). Thus, I have entries for Dickinson, Violet relationship with VB Woolf, Virginia relationship with VB and so forth, which all work fine. My problem is with the entries for Clive Bell, Vanessa's husband. It seems strange to have an entry such as: Bell, Clive proposal to VB since, of course, Vanessa wasn't yet Vanessa Bell when he proposed. Should I in this instance only use: Bell, Clive proposal to Vanessa Stephen What to you all think? Should I go with consistent use of VB (explained in a head note, of course) or go with her maiden name for this heading only? Thanks for your input. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:57:54 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Harvey Kaniel Greetings Indexers: Can anyone provide me with some product information about MACREX? Is there/will there be a Windows version? Thank-you very much Harvey Kaniel hkan@netvision.net.il ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 01:36:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Query: name treatment In a message dated 96-06-17 00:37:10 EDT, you write: >My problem is with the entries for Clive >Bell, Vanessa's husband. It seems strange to have an entry such as: > >Bell, Clive > proposal to VB > >since, of course, Vanessa wasn't yet Vanessa Bell when he proposed. Should I >in this instance only use: > >Bell, Clive > proposal to Vanessa Stephen > >What to you all think? Should I go with consistent use of VB (explained in a >head note, of course) or go with her maiden name for this heading only? > > How about: Bell, Clive proposal to Vanessa Bell (nee Stephen) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:09:50 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter Subject: Re: Query: name treatment On 1996-06-16 at 21:36, you wrote: > > It seems strange to have an entry such as: > > Bell, Clive > proposal to VB > > since, of course, Vanessa wasn't yet Vanessa Bell when > he proposed. This seems clear to me: Use _Bell_ throughout (except of course for the entry _Stephen, Vanessa. See Bell, Vanessa_). Analogously, one would wish to avoid Celebration of U.S. holidays prior to the World War World War to World War II during World War II since World War II It's similar to the question of how to spell place names that have shifted linguistically but not geographically: Use only one spelling--the one that best matches the book's point of view. .........................Paul Carpenter P.S. If one adopted the convention of "thingname as it was called at the time of the event" instead of "thingname as we call it now", how would one refer to prehistorical events? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:16:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Macrex Contact Gail Rhodes at macrex@aol.com. Judy Press Press Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:57:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: Query about captions In-Reply-To: <9606141259.AB01954@gold.compulink.co.uk> Max I obviously didn't explain myself clearly enough. The kind of text in captions I'm talking about is, for example, `payment for this kind of work was at the rate of $1 a page'. `Payment' is not what the illustration is about, and is not the kind of thing you would expect to find in a caption, and that's why I felt that it would be helpful to the reader to have some way of indicating exactly where it was. >You don't have to resort to using (c) to indicate the caption, just use >bold to refer to the illustration (and its associated caption) which is >fairly standard. In the UK at least, italics are more commonly used than bold for illustrations. Bold is normally used to indicate the page number(s) containing the most important reference to a subject. I notice that Nancy Mulvany's book also suggests using italic for references to illustrations. Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: indexing unfamiliar subjects The question, "Can you index a document proberly without being a subject expert?" has been generating debate for a long time. I remember a series of KeyWords articles and subsequent letters to the editor, from several years ago, on that very topic. Back then I wanted to believe that you COULD learn to index unfamiliar material from syntax and semantics alone. My feeling now, after more years of legislative indexing, is that there is too much that's not present in the text, too many words a searcher might look up that just aren't there, and that a non-expert won't know. I also notice that the nonexpert's method--indexing by parsing (getting cues from the grammar and semantics)--is exactly what is done by "automatic indexing" programs such as Indexicon, which most of us profess to dislike. The burden is on the nonexpert to show that s/he can do a job that is sufficiently better than an parsing program to justify the cost. I don't like to sound so discouraging, but I think those are the facts just now. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: DC-ASI Meeting - Panel and Registration Date Change *** Resending note of 06/17/96 11:22 How Librarians Use Indexes The Washington D.C. ASI Chapter is sponsoring a meeting on Saturday, 29 June 1996 at St. John's College Boathouse, overlooking College Creek, in Annapolis, MD. *ASI tshirts will be available for sale.* ** Historic walking tour/pub crawl afterwards.** Schedule of Events 10:30 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. - Registration 11:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. - Business meeting 12:00 p.m. - 1:30 p.m. - Catered lunch 1:30 p.m. - 3:00 p.m. - Panel discussion A panel of librarians will discuss how they view and use indexes in each of their specialties. **Please note panel change and extention of registration deadline.** Wendie C. Old - Helping Children Do Research in Libraries Ms. Old is Children's Librarian at the Fallston Branch of the Harford County Library. In addition to helping children do research, Wendie has published several childrens' picture books and four Middle School biographies, which she indexed herself. Patricia V. Melville - Finding Aids Used in Archive Collections: Card Indexes vs. Databases Ms. Melville is Director of Reference Services at the Maryland State Archives. Karla Pearce -- Humanities Librarians, Academic Libraries and Indexes Ms. Pearce is Coordinator for Science and Engineering at Eisenhower Library at Johns Hopkins University. Dr. Kerryn A. Brandt, MLS - Human vs. Machine Indexing on the Web (MeSH vs. Lycos) Dr. Brandt is Assistant Professor, Division of Biomedical Information Sciences, and Program Director, Information Management and Curriculum Support at the Welch Medical Library of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Richard Shrout - Cataloging at the Department of Justice Mr. Shrout is Assistant Director of Technical Services at the Department of Justice Main Library. ********************************************************************** You can also register at the door, but we cannot guarantee you lunch. ______________________________________________________________________ Name (as it will appear on registration badge) _____________________________________________________________________ Organization _____________________________________________________________________ Address ______________________________________________________________ City State Zip Code E-mail _______________________________________________________ Telephone Fax Will you need a seat on the shuttle from New Carrollton metro? (please indicate number)___________ Vegetarian? Y N (for lunch) Registration Fee: Postmarked by 22 June 1996 (covers catered lunch) $25.00 Members; $30.00 Nonmembers. Cancellations require 3 days notice for refund (subject to a $5.00 processing fee.) Send registration to: Editorial Services, 619 Severn Ave., Suite 103, Annapolis, MD 21401 ATTN: DC-ASI Registration (please put in Subject field if registering by E-mail) or wiley@indexing.com. Shuttle will pick up from New Carrollton metro @10:00 a.m. and will leave the boathouse at 3:30 p.m. for return to New Carrollton metro station. St. John's College is located off Rt. 50, at the end of Rowe Boulevard. Maps and parking information will be provided with registration confirmation. Tshirts cost $15 for S, M, L, XL and youth sizes, $18 for XXL and XXXL, including tax. $3 for shipping. The shirt is natural with the ASI logo in green. (looks just like the new ASI stationary.) You can reserve a shirt now by sending a check to Deborah Patton @1301 W. 42nd St. Baltimore, MD 21211. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:10:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jim Mancall Subject: Re: Query: name treatment In-Reply-To: <9606170435.AA08028@is.nyu.edu> I think I would stick with VB in the sub-entries for consistency's sake, but then list "Stephen, Vanessa" as a main-heading with a cross-reference to "Bell, Vanessa Stephen." Thus, readers who might be looking under the maiden name will be directed to the proper heading. Jim Mancall ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:26:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: No Subject Shelley-- As you can see, I've sent the note out. I forget which of us was going to do it, so forgive if you were!! I've sent it to the Web site as well as to the DCPUBS listserve. Feel free to send it on to other sources, too. I also noted, too late, however, "extention" which should be "extension." I'm working on the labels, and have requested finals from ASI. When do you think you'll have the flyer ready? Thanks, Pilar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:46:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: compensation for lost work A client just called asking for advice on how to compensate an indexer who didn't get to do a promised job because the author suddenly decided (or told her) that he was going to do it. (Yes, this is a wonderful client!) I have tried to get this kind of compensation before from other clients and they've always acted as if I was totally unreasonable. So I didn't really know what was reasonable! Off the top of my head, I told her she should pay an hourly rate for any work the indexer had already done, and at least $200 in a flat lost-work fee. But I'm not really sure. What do you all think? I told her I would ask the indexing community and let her know. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:34:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: compensation for lost work In-Reply-To: <199606171949.MAA08903@spork.callamer.com> On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > A client just called asking for advice on how to compensate an indexer who > didn't get to do a promised job because the author suddenly decided (or told > her) that he was going to do it. (Yes, this is a wonderful client!) I have > tried to get this kind of compensation before from other clients and they've > always acted as if I was totally unreasonable. So I didn't really know what > was reasonable! Off the top of my head, I told her she should pay an hourly > rate for any work the indexer had already done, and at least $200 in a flat > lost-work fee. But I'm not really sure. > > What do you all think? I told her I would ask the indexing community and let > her know. Do Mi A professional writer gets a "kill fee" for an article which has been ordered (and written) but is not purchased. I've never had quite this situation come up before, and now that you mention it, we probably ought to cover it in our contracts. I think it's reasonable to pay an indexer (or editor) a kill fee if the work was actually promised (as opposed to just discussed in the planning stages). What constitutes a "promise" in legal terms, I'm not too sure of, but the point is that we "hold a place in line" for incoming work and we frequently turn down other projects to accommodate a promised job. When it doeesn't turn up, we've lost money. There's a couple of ways of figuring the charge, IMO. First of all, of course the indexer should be compensated for whatever work has already been done before anything else is considered. Then you could establish a flat fee ($200 sounds good to me) for ANY index. Or, you could charge a percentage of what the job would have paid you had it been completed. A typical kill fee for a writer is 25% of the agreed-upon payment, but that's probably a bit steep. How about 10%? If you were going to charge $3 a page, and the book ran 500 pages, your kill fee would be $150. Just a few thoughts... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:50:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: compensation for lost work Do Mi- Your problem: >A client just called asking for advice on how to compensate an indexer who >didn't get to do a promised job because the author suddenly decided (or told >her) that he was going to do it. is a timely one for me. I have an agreement (contract) that I use with clients that includes a termination section. If the client terminates, they are to pay a $200 cancellation fee (in addition to anything owed on the job). If I cancel, I will pay them the same cancellation fee, after I have been paid for work performed. I don't have a fee if the cancellation happens at least 2 weeks ahead of the expected start date (which I indicate on the contract). Because I have recently spent some significant time giving estimates of time, an approach, and a price, after which the potential client withdraws, I am considering a fee for estimates, which can be applied to the final cost of the index if the job is given to me. I believe such a fee wouldn't have to be very high to get the message across. Even $15 for scholarly authors. (My message is that I'm a information professional and my time is worth something.) Of course, since I would probably be the only one in a (several) hundred mile radius with this policy, I'm afraid I'd scare off some potentially good clients. Neva = < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > =*=<+> Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com PO Box 2157, Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 voice/fax +1-512-244-2767 & Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199, Round Rock, TX 78680-2199 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:49:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Multiple Indexes Hi all! This is my first posting to the list although I have been a reader for some time. I would like to solicit your opinions on doing multiple indexes for one book. The editor has requested 3 indexes (names, subjects, and references) for a book I am currently indexing. I have just started using Macrex. My question is, how would you go about compiling the indexes? Would you work all the way through each one separately, completing one, then the next, then the next? Or, would you tackle all three simultaneously? If I were doing this in WordPerfect, I would simply have three documents open at the same time and post entries as I encountered them (having first reviewed page proofs and made preliminary markings.) However, with Macrex, it seems a bit more clumsy - going all the way out to get to another file, rather than simply switching between documents. (Has anyone ever posted entries in a word processor then imported them into Macrex to be sorted?!) Is there an easier way to manage entering them directly into Macrex? I'm sure there are many ways to handle a job like this, which vary as much as the people who use them, but please tell me what has worked for you all. Thank you for your comments. Jill Barrett Indexing Services Newport News, VA P.S. By the way, I would like to know if there are other indexers in my local area. Please feel free to contact me off the list! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:25:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: compensation for lost work I have recently begun using a contract that is taken from a few sources, the ASI sample contract among them. The ASI document contains wording for the cancellation compensation, and I have included it in my "standard" contract. I must admit I was surprised when I read: > Because I have recently spent some significant time giving estimates of > time, an approach, and a price, after which the potential client withdraws, > I am considering a fee for estimates, which can be applied to the final cost > of the index if the job is given to me.> I have always thought of that as a cost of doing business. IMHO, it would deter people from even asking for a bid. I cannot see somebody who is working for a university or a press putting through and receiving approval on a Request for Payment just for getting a bid from a vendor. It seems that this would be a very unlikely scenario. To me, quoting on new business is part of getting the new business. You win some, you lose some. The trick to the whole thing is to perfect your ability and skill at doing the figuring and preparing the proposal, so that you don't spend an inordinate amount of time at it. And then you chalk the time up to the administrative/marketing/ sales end of your business activities. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:13:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes I have done this several times using hard copy of page proofs to mark the entries and then entering them into separate files on my indexing program. On the hard copy I use different colored highlighters to mark subject, author, and reference (or cases, or whatever). Then I go through and enter all the subject for that chapter, batch of chapters, etc., then all the authors (names), and then the next. I continue to do this til the end of the proof. I find that I do not duplicate efforts and it seems to have worked well for me. I hope it helps. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes Sorry, I posted the last message and forgot something. I also charge extra to do the additional indexes. Usually about $300, depending on the length of the book. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:02:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Hughes Subject: Re: chemical compounds In-Reply-To: <199606132026.AA24058@mail.crl.com> Thanks to all who had kind words and gave me the benefit of a doubt regarding my experience, or lack of it. I don't check this list every day, so it was a real education to follow the train of thoughts about my query. First, the basic information on chemical entries was exactly what I was looking for and quite adequate for my purposes. Thanks for the many references. I have the Chicago Manual; it was of no help in this case. I'm not indexing a textbook, I'm helping some contract staff index a manual with a diverse but narrow readership. Published in-house. For the benefit of those who have given their unqualified support, I'll describe my background briefly. I've indexed five books: four volumes of an almanac on state government and one autobiography published by The University of California Press. The author of the latter was very particular about the index topics and the editor was no slouch when it came to indexes. Both stated great satisfaction and made few corrections in my work. I don't do this full-time but I read what I can on the subject. Final thoughts: 1) I find it hard to believe a person without experience could get a job indexing a highly technical manuscript. My experience with publishers is that they usually know what they want, and if they don't know their topic, the author does. 2) Speaking of experience, unless someone is "born knowing," how do they get experience? Even the experts have to start somewhere. 3) Bottom line: If someone had a question, I wouldn't tell them that they had no business asking. Thanks again for all the help! Mary ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 03:17:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes In a message dated 96-06-17 23:50:51 EDT, Jill Barrett wrote: >My question is, how would you go about compiling the indexes? Would >you work all the way through each one separately, completing one, then the >next, then the next? Or, would you tackle all three simultaneously? I don't know what most indexers do but we recommend that indexers with Macrex make a single pass through the material, flagging each entry for the subject, name or whatever separate index is needed. Reading the same material two, three or more times seems to increase the error factor and, of course, greatly extends the amount of time needed to complete the job. Macrex comes complete with everything you need to make this one-pass approach quite easy to manage. I have written in greater detail directly to Jill but thought that others might be interested in a quick summary. Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office (North America only) For Australia, Nw Zealand and South East Asia, e-mail mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world, e-mail hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Macrex, the choice of professionals around the world ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: comments wanted I was net surfing and came upon this page in Prentice Hall's author's guidelines on who and how to index their books. It's at: http://www.prenhall.com/author_guide/indexing.html I was fairly surprised by it and wonder if anyone else cares to check it out and tell me what you thought. I guess I could copy it to the list, but I don't know if that's legal. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: No Subject Apologies, everyone-- for my sending out a reply to the entire list that should have gone to an individual only, and for trying to get something done when I was obviously too tired to think straight. Pilar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:43:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: estimate fees It's an interesting idea -- estimate fees -- that most likely won't work (IMHO). Just as cancellation (or "kill") fees *do* work in other industries, the only industry I can think of where estimate fees actually succeed are in auto repair. And the only reason that auto repair shops get away with this is because they are trying to give the customer an answer that they can take to their insurance company or to court.In other words, there is an motive above and beyond that of getting the contract. I think that bidding on a contract is part of getting the job -- and an experienced bidder has the advantage. On the other hand, it is perfectly justifiable to be paid for any work done on a project, such as that of a sample chapter. But don't misunderstand my message into thinking that freelancers' time is of little value! On the bright side, the cost of making an estimate is generally low anyway: a few phone calls, some fax paper, and a short amount of time looking over sample material. (How short depends on how good you are... :-) - Seth Seth A. Maislin O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com seth@ora.com WWW: http://jasper.ora.com:80/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:30:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Cancellation fees are an important part of any contract. According to the Freelance Editorial Association, the maximum cancellation fee should be based on two week's lost work -- based on the assumption that two weeks' notice is acceptable for cancelling a project. The idea is that if a project is scheduled to last 6 weeks, starting on July 1, and the client lets you know on June 30 that the author is writing the index and that there is no project after all, the indexer may be stuck without work -- without any income -- for two weeks. (It is expected that a professional freelancers can find work for that third week.) What qualifies as "two weeks' worth of work" varies and is open for further discussion. This gets especially complicated when you consider that many indexers charge by the page. Cancellation fees apply both before and during the contract span. So in the above example, the cancellation fee is the same whether the project is cancelled June 30 (one day before it begins) or June 14 (two weeks after it begins). In the latter case, however, the indexer should also expect payment for the 14 days work was done -- thus the invoice should be for 4 weeks' worth of work. Finally, the freelancer can always waive the cancellation fee or make amendments to the contract due to extenuating circumstances. Cancellation fees should also involve any additional special expenses that would have otherwise been reimbursed at the conclusion of the project, such as the purchase of special software. As a footnote, I should add that the Freelance Editorial Association also follows a different procedure if a project is started late. It is recommended that the client pay 20 to 50 percent of the contracted hourly rate (or equivalent hourly rate) oif reserved but unused time. - Seth Seth A. Maislin O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1199 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com seth@ora.com WWW: http://jasper.ora.com:80/seth/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: estimate fees What about differentiating between bidding for a job and consulting? A while back I was called in to meet with a client to discuss preparing indexes for a publication of theirs. I was asked to prepare a bid, essentially, though not formally. We also talked about index specifications, publicity, content, and other related topics. I spent time on-site with them, and shared much of my professional indexer's expertise. To make a long story short, I did not get the job, as they decided to have an intern do it, but I did request -- and got -- payment for my time as a professional consultant. And the index became a major selling point for them. The moral of the story is that there may be times when an 'estimate fee' is entirely appropriate. I would call it a consulting fee, at that point. Indeed, our time *is* valuable. L. Pilar Wyman (Pilar) Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: estimate fees About fees for estimates: I think that those who think fees won't work are right. I don't think they would, either. Especially since it isn't part of this industry's usual mode of business. I was just thinking about them because a potential client had requested more than just a per page rate. I can do that in a few minutes or half an hour once I have sample pages. In this case it took 4.5 hours to satisfy the potential client's request. I had been fairly certain of getting the job from what the author said (he didn't want to do the index himself and would prefer that a professional do the job). After I had given the page rate, with the additional information needed, the *co*author decided to index it himself, against my contact's preferences. So it's just a sign of frustration that I wish I could do estimate fees. Maybe what I really need is to find out up front if *both* authors feel the same way about hiring an indexer. I know it's a cost of doing business. But I can wish, can't I? Neva = < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > =*=<+> Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com PO Box 2157, Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 voice/fax +1-512-244-2767 & Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199, Round Rock, TX 78680-2199 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: comments wanted Rachel: I was interested to see that Prentice Hal even has a statement for authors about indexers....any books I have ever done for Prentice Hall have been through jobbers, each with his or her own requirements. I guess I had the impression that their books are always handled through jobbers..... Live and learn! -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:57:55 -0500 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: estimate fees I too have charges a "consulting fee" for preparing a bid when the project was deemed tentative, as when a group is going to seek funding for an index based on the bid. I have never had anyone question the need for paying for this kind of consulting. I distinguish this from the requests for information that are more informal, take less time, or constitute "shopping around" on the part of the author. On those, I figure that you win some, you lose some. It would take me longer to write up an invoice than it would be worth to me in terms of business karma! On the other hand, I recently spent 10 hours preparing an elaborate bid for a university press (which then had to be submitted in 5 copies), filling out their specific forms (that's what took so long--modifying my information to fit their categories), then mailing the whole thing in as a sealed bid for services..... I spent a whole weekend plus the expense of sending the rather large package by courier....so I really felt that if I did not make the cut-off, I'd have been out some real time and money there. The good news is that I got a contract to sign this week. My fervent hope is that no more of my clients are going to go this route in future! I can see the purpose of having an approved list of service providers, from the perspective of the university press's accounting department, but it really would be a burden to have to submit a similar bid for services to every client. What I'm wondering is how many other presses are going this route? Is this a new trend or an aberration? Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:32:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Donna Balopole Subject: Indicating figures and tables Regarding indicating illustrations in the index. In medical indexing, it is quite common to use an "f" for figures and "t" for tables. Thus entries might look like Bone marrow transplant, 310-312, 311f-312f Brain tumors, 311, 311f, 312t A head note would explain the use of f and t in the index. Donna Balopole Churchill Livingstone ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Charging for estimates Janet writes: >I have always thought of that as a cost of doing business. IMHO, it would >deter people from even asking for a bid. I cannot see somebody who is >working for a university or a press putting through and receiving approval on >a Request for Payment just for getting a bid from a vendor. It seems that >this would be a very unlikely scenario. To me, quoting on new business is >part of getting the new business. You win some, you lose some. The trick to >the whole thing is to perfect your ability and skill at doing the figuring >and preparing the proposal, so that you don't spend an inordinate amount of >time at it. And then you chalk the time up to the administrative/marketing/ >sales end of your business activities. Exactly! Thinking about getting paid by the client for each hour you work for them is not the only model for asserting your professionalism. (Even lawyers will usually agree to a free first consultation to discuss whether their specialties, fees and practices are appropriate to your situation.) In a business like indexing, where most of us get paid by the job, considering yourself a professional can mean you consider your time valuable and get paid for it *in the long run* as you get jobs at an appropriate rate. If you want to think of your job bids as hourly compensation, just make sure you figure in all those "non-billable" hours like bookkeeping, invoicing, marketing, estimating, querying, etc. averaged over your work year. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:43:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Nieb Subject: Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <199606181306.JAA22832@echonyc.com> UNSUB Cynthia Nieb ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:04:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Indexing fees ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You may like to know that the Society of Indexers in the UK makes a recommendation for MINIMUM fees, which is circulated to publishers along with our annual *Indexers Available* list. For the period from September 1996 to December 1997, the minimum recommendation will be twelve pounds an hour, or one pound per printed page of the book. This works out at roughly nineteen dollars an hour or 1.6 dollars per page. (I know that the pound sign does not work on email, and I'm not sure if the dollar sign on my keyboard will either). We do stress that this is a minimum, and that greater skill and/or more complex texts should be suitably compensated. Unfortunately, not all publishers seem to have read that far, but others are what I should describe as 'quite reasonable' in this respect. I understand that ASI cannot do this, being a charity. Luckily, we are not a charity (we cannot or do not wish to conform to our law on charities), but we have succeeded, after a lot of effort, in getting ourselves exempted from the requirement to register for Value Added Tax. This is of great benefit because, otherwise, we should have to pay 17.5 per cent tax on all our members' subscriptions! Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:55:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Indexing in the news Indexers- The following is an article from TIDBits, posted here with the author's permission. >The All-Important Index >----------------------- > by David Holzgang > > The index is an essential ingredient in having a successful > computer book, and the article in TidBITS-332_, The Process of > Publishing, completely omitted that topic. A book needs a good > index for many reasons, not the least of which is that potential > purchasers, while browsing in a book store, use the table of > contents and the index as tools for deciding whether or not to > purchase the book. > > I have written 14 books, mostly on PostScript and other high-end > graphics subjects. In my experience, publishers handle index > preparation in three ways. Some publishers farm it out to > professionals and charge the author's royalty account. Some allow > or require the author to prepare the index (or have it prepared) > themselves. And finally, some publishers permit the author to > choose a professional to prepare the index and, in some cases, > even share the cost. [Another possibility is that the publisher > generates the index with no charge to the author and with little > or no control given to the author, which is the case with Hayden > Books. -Adam] > > The index for a book is one of the most important features that > the book has. As a reader, I find a good index makes using a book > a pleasure and a poor index makes finding anything a real chore. > As a result, I usually ask publishers to let me pick a > professional indexer and pay for the index out of my royalty > account. This gives me some control over the index quality and > ensures that I end up with an index that contributes to the book. > Also, by choosing my own indexer, I know what the cost will be > before the indexer starts work. Unfortunately, this doesn't always > work; some publishers won't let the author participate at all. > > Generally, in my experience, the worst indices are those prepared > by authors. Indexing is a specialized skill, and deserves respect. > (And, if you think authors work under deadline pressures, consider > the indexer who generally has no more than a few days to index the > book completely.) There is a society of professional indexers and > I have found that these folks do the best work. I'd point out two > main issues to a fledgling author. First, someone has to prepare > the index for your book, and there's a good chance that you'll be > expected to pay for it - out of royalties, true, but it's still > your money. Second, don't do it yourself - a professional will do > a better job and make your book more successful. > > [For more information about professional indexing, check out the > Web site for the American Society of Indexers. -Adam] > > = < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > =*=<+> Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@bga.com PO Box 2157, Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 voice/fax +1-512-244-2767 & Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199, Round Rock, TX 78680-2199 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:59:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BALIPETZ@CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU Subject: Re: Query: name treatment If you do not want to agonize too much over Clive Bell and how to tell that he actually proposed to Vanessa before she was Vanessa Bell, you might consider the easy solution: Bell, Clive proposal In other words, finesse a Vanessa. Or was Clive a live one who proposed to other ladies, too? Ben Lipetz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:51:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: estimate fees In-Reply-To: <199606181426.HAA21934@spork.callamer.com> Pilar, I'd say you were right to charge for your time as a consultant. Your work went far beyond the usual request for estimate in that situation, and it seems very reasonable to have charged for it. I don't think I'll charge for regular estimates; I doubt I'd get the fee, and frankly they don't take that long to prepare and submit for the average project. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:47:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Long-term contracts In-Reply-To: <199606182144.OAA10352@spork.callamer.com> Sorry, folks, for the "quoted" appearance. Once again, I accidentally sent out this message to the wrong address... > Barbara, I recently completed a similar package for a large midwestern > publisher who apparently HAS switched over to a "preferred provider" sort > of scenario. I think I probably spent at least ten hours compiling the > requested information...and also educating their purchasing department > about how indexes are priced and bid! I still didn't charge them for > the time I spent, because I have worked for them for at least 15 years > and fully expected to be among the "preferred." And I am. > > The short answer is yes, I think more and more publishers are going to > want to go the route of "guaranteed" rates for a year at a time. So we > have to educate ourselves on the pitfalls of this sort of open-ended > contract and be ready to defend our position when we are asked to charge > an "A-level" price for a "C level" index. That's just one of the pitfalls... > establishing two or three price ranges and somehow every book falls into > the lowest range. I think this is an area where we will have to stand firm > and not get talked into doing massive amounts of work at an entry-level > fee. > > =Sonsie= > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:33:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Cornelius" Subject: starting out Dear Indexers: I am a recent subscriber to index-l, so please forgive any duplication of discussion threads. I am interested in becoming a professional indexer, and have already produced an index to a database that will be published this summer. I would greatly appreciate suggestions concerning getting started, such as gaining more experience and training, finding initial clients, etc. Thanks, Cynthia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:52:34 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: chemical compounds What about a term like >>"17-hydroxyprogesterone" or "S-nitrosothiol"? I'd appreciate it so much >>if someone could tell me the standard. Thanks! >> > Also >ignored in sorting are Greek letter locants (alpha, beta, etc. There are a number of instances where the Greek letters are an integral part of the name of a compound, and must be considered, either as a main entry or a reference. Two examples which come to mind are "alpha-ketoglutarate" (which, as an ex-scientist, I believe would never be looked for under ketoglutarate) and "beta blockers" (altho I realise this last eg is not a chemical name). Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:52:40 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Query: name treatment At 14:10 17/06/96 -0400, you wrote: >I think I would stick with VB in the sub-entries for consistency's sake, >but then list "Stephen, Vanessa" as a main-heading with a cross-reference >to "Bell, Vanessa Stephen." Thus, readers who might be looking under the >maiden name will be directed to the proper heading. > >Jim Mancall > I don't see why consistency wins over logic in the answers to this query. No access will be lost by using "Bell, Clive: proposes to Vanessa Stephen", and since this is what he did, it might as well be the entry. As his surname is Bell, no-one will have any problem figuring out that Vanessa Stephen became Vanessa Bell. Also, as the focus here is the man, it doesn't seem so crucial. Presumably, though, there will be an equivalent entry under Vanessa's name, and there grouping it under Vanessa Bell makes sense. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 19:16:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBINDEX@AOL.COM Subject: Repeater I'm offering some delayed gratification for those of you who assisted with computer terms in February. The publisher recommended me to another who asked me to index a similar nontechnical computer book. Lovely!! Thanks again, Lee Brower, Loveland CO ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: compensation for lost work When this happened to me recently, I charged the client 25% of what the job would have been, and I got it. That didn't fully compensate me, of course, but at least I used the unexpected gap to work on my business, even though I wasn't indexing per se. >Because I have recently spent some significant time giving estimates of >time, an approach, and a price, after which the potential client withdraws, >I am considering a fee for estimates, which can be applied to the final cost >of the index if the job is given to me. I believe such a fee wouldn't have >to be very high to get the message across. Even $15 for scholarly authors. >(My message is that I'm a information professional and my time is worth >something.) Of course, since I would probably be the only one in a (several) >hundred mile radius with this policy, I'm afraid I'd scare off some >potentially good clients. > >Neva I'm afraid I don't agree with Neva about charging for estimates (but more power to her). I can't really think of a single professional whose services I use who charges for an estimate: not my dentist, my doctor, my auto mechanic, my accountant. Although it can be very time-consuming to do the work we need to do to land the jobs we want, that's part of our business expense, and we can build that into our fee structure. Cheers, Carol P.S. Just came back from a lovely vacation in Ithaca, NY. Nice to be back on Index-L; I just hope y'all didn't say anything important while I was away. ;-) Also, it was nice meeting so many of you f2f in Denver. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 22:50:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes Jill Barrett asked about preparing multiple indexes in MACREX. Before getting into the "hows" of accomplishing that, I hope you've tried to convince the editor to have only one index. Most studies of index users indicate that they rarely realize there is more than one index, so if they don't find the information where they are looking, they assume it is not in the book. Bella Weinberg discussed the issue quite eloquently at the ASI conference, and I know many people have spoken about this issue. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:07:20 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max McMaster Subject: Re: Query about captions Drusilla >I obviously didn't explain myself clearly enough. The kind of text in >captions I'm talking about is, for example, `payment for this kind of >work was at the rate of $1 a page'. `Payment' is not what the >illustration is about, and is not the kind of thing you would expect to >find in a caption, and that's why I felt that it would be helpful to the >reader to have some way of indicating exactly where it was. This is obviously a very different situation. What you might call a 'Claytons' caption to the illustration. I agree the use of italic or bold is not appropriate in this situation. Hans Wellisch suggests using either an asterisk or enclosing the locator in square brackets to get around this particular caption problem. However, these symbols will probably be just as indecipherable to a user as say the letter (c), unless they look at the note at the head of the index, and that is the nub of the problem. Max Max McMaster Master Indexing mindexer@interconnect.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:43:00 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes In-Reply-To: <835069830.9483.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> Hello Jill, >This is my first posting to the list although I have been a reader for some >time. I would like to solicit your opinions on doing multiple indexes for >one book. The editor has requested 3 indexes (names, subjects, and >references) for a book I am currently indexing. I have just started using >Macrex. My question is, how would you go about compiling the indexes? Would >you work all the way through each one separately, completing one, then the >next, then the next? Or, would you tackle all three simultaneously? You can do what you want easily in Macrex. Put a prefix before each entry, to indiciate which of the three indexes it belongs to, e.g. n(=name) s (=subject) r (= refs.). Then when you have finished, you keep your mbk (backup) file intact, and run the Strip program three times. The first time you tell it to remove the prefix you have used for Names, and it will 'lose' all the other entries, leaving you with a pristine Name Index. Do the same for the other two and Bob's you uncle! > > (Has anyone ever posted >entries in a word processor then imported them into Macrex to be sorted?!) > Is there an easier way to manage entering them directly into Macrex? I'm >sure there are many ways to handle a job like this, which vary as much as the >people who use them, but please tell me what has worked for you all. Yes, I have converted other files into Macrex. You use the Correct program, which is fine, as long as you have edited the original text to eliminate all sorts of nasties, which impede the conversion. This is not the place to go into that in detail - contact Macrex! Have a go! Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:46:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: compensation for lost work In-Reply-To: <9606191239.AA13750@mx5.u.washington.edu> I don't charge for routine estimates, but like Pilar have charged a consultation fee for lengthy discussions about index style and methods, as well as any sample indexes produced in connection with the consultation. There have also been cases where the client agreed that the time spent in producing a sample index could be incorporated into the final bill for the project. Health professionals most definitely DO charge for estimates - whenever you are charged for an office visit that results in a recommendation for further treatment. The client always has the option of rejecting the professional advice, deciding he/she can't afford the elective surgery, orthodontics, contact lenses, orthopedic shoes, etc., or going elsewhere for a second opinion; but the patient (or his insurance company) definitely PAYS for the professional's time in advising on what needs to be done and what it will cost! And I have yet to meet an auto mechanic (except the amateur I'm married to!) who doesn't charge for his time in figuring out "what's causing the funny noise". I may choose not to have the work done if the estimate is too high, but I still have to pay the bill for his time to get my car keys back! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Tue, 18 Jun 1996, Carol Roberts wrote: I can't really think of a single professional whose services > I use who charges for an estimate: not my dentist, my doctor, my auto > mechanic, my accountant. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: chemical compounds In a message dated 96-06-19 03:29:28 EDT, you write: >There are a number of instances where the Greek letters are an integral part >of the name of a compound, and must be considered, either as a main entry or >a reference. Two examples which come to mind are "alpha-ketoglutarate" >(which, as an ex-scientist, I believe would never be looked for under >ketoglutarate) and "beta blockers" (altho I realise this last eg is not a >chemical name). > >Glenda. Glenda, Excellent point! The Greek letter locants I referred to are actually printed as Greek letters and are prefixes or parts of prefixes to compound names. In fact, one of the examples that Mary gave, 17-hydroxyprogesterone, actually has a Greek alpha (which she would have had a devil of a time trying to reproduce in her message) between the 17 and the hyphen. (At least, that's how it appears in Merck's.) It would have been ignored along with the "17" in sorting, according to the ACS Style Guide, as part of the locant. As you do, I too would sort on them when spelled out or transliterated. It looks as if you've given us a useful rule of thumb here, based on your experience as a scientist--i.e., sort on them when transliterated and don't sort on them when they're not. And how a user (scientists, in this case) would retrieve them is what it's all about. :-) BTW, once a scientist, always a scientist, IMHO. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: ASI Twin Cities chapter meeting The Twin Cities Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will hold its annual meeting on Saturday, June 29 from 1 to 3 p.m. at the Saint Anthony Park Branch Library in Saint Paul. Suzanna Moody and Terry Hudoba will give us a repeat performance of the presentation they made at the Denver national meeting. It's entitled "Raiding the Pantry" and it's about applying indexing skills to other types of projects. We'll also have the officers' report on the chapter's doings for the year and plans for the future. The library's address is 2245 Como Avenue, Saint Paul. Parking is on the street, and the season of road construction is upon us, so allow extra time to deal with these inconveniences, but do come. We're especially eager to meet new ASI members. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 18:36:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes & Windows-based Macrex I have had several requests that I make a posting to the List on two subjects (Windows-based Macrex and Multiple indexes for the same material). Most of you probably know that I am reluctant to use the List to promote Macrex. I have always responded off-List to any such inquiries. However, it would appear that responding via the List is of interest to a sufficient number of members that I have assembled the following and dispatched it with apologies to those who prefer my policy of off-List responses. WINDOWS-BASED MACREX: We have a policy against announcing a product until it is ready to ship. It would be foolish to deny that work is underway to develop a Windows-based version of Macrex but we do not yet have a date for distribution. MS-DOS based programs (such a Macrex) which are designed for a specific type of task often must choose between the Graphical User Interface and speed of operation. Macrex users who are able to able to make hundreds of quality index entries per hour continue to voice great concern that a switch to a Windows-based program would reduce their output or take their focus from the creative portion of index writing. The existing Macrex program runs very nicely under Windows 3.x, Win95 and OS/2. Using Macrex in any of these environments means that the indexer may run multiple copies of the software or print an index in one Window while starting a different index in another. In the case of Win95 and OS/2, the users report an increase in the speed of operation. MULTIPLE INDEXES IN A SINGLE PASS: It seems to me that multiple trips through most books can result in temporary insanity. "Did I remember to include this in the subject index?" "I don't remember making an entry for that in the names index." "How did I phrase that in the geographical index?" and so on. Even indexers who mark up the pages and have someone else type in the entries for the names index before they go through the material to do the subject index find themselves worrying and rechecking. With Macrex there are several very handy approaches to this issue that leave control of the index in your hands while greatly reducing the time needed for editing. You can, if you have Windows or OS/2 and a large monitor, open multiple copies of Macrex, each window having one of the indexes. This approach would not be my choice but appears to work well for many. I prefer to have all indexes in a single file so that I can copy and flip information from one entry to another. By using the group mode, an included utility (STRIP) or unique main headings, the indexer is able to separate the index into the final multiple indexes with a keystroke or two. I have assembled an information sheet detailing these options. As it is too long for most Index-L postings, I will mail it to anyone who drops me a note with their USnail address. PLEASE address your request to macrex@aol.com so that it does not clutter the List! Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office (North America only) For Australia, Nw Zealand and South East Asia, e-mail mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world, e-mail hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Macrex, the choice of professionals around the world. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 14:25:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Indexing fees In-Reply-To: <199606182205.PAA12077@spork.callamer.com> Betty, I don't think our problem is that ASI is a "charity"--I think it has to do with our labor laws, which prevent actions in restraint of trade. I may have the particulars wrong about this, but if ASI recommended some particular fee structure, it would be considered "price fixing" and thus illegal. We can do surveys that show what people charge, but cannot recommend that people adopt a particular fee structure. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 23:53:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Multiple Indexes Dear all, Thank you so much to all of you who responded to my posting. As usual, the answers were timely and extremely beneficial. *All* the tips were great and I am very delighted that Macrex can handle the job with such ease! As for Fred's posting about using a single index, the point is well taken and in most cases I would probably tend to agree. However, this is a Biblical commentary and the format requested by the editor is the norm for such books. I also believe it is advantageous for the Bible scholars who use them. At any rate, thanks for your 2 cents! Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:54:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: compensation for lost work >Health professionals most definitely DO charge for estimates - >whenever you are charged for an office visit that results in a >recommendation for further treatment. The client always has the >option of rejecting the professional advice, deciding he/she can't afford >the elective surgery, orthodontics, contact lenses, orthopedic shoes, etc., or >going elsewhere for a second opinion; but the patient (or his insurance >company) definitely PAYS for the professional's time in advising on what >needs to be done and what it will cost! And I have yet to meet an auto >mechanic (except the amateur I'm married to!) who doesn't charge for his time >in figuring out "what's causing the funny noise". I may choose not to >have the work done if the estimate is too high, but I still have to >pay the bill for his time to get my car keys back! As I responded to Carolyn off-list, health professionals I've used do indeed charge for a consultation, which typically involves more that just an estimate, and of course one expects to pay for a consultation. But if I call up my optometrist and ask him to write down my contact lens prescription and what it would cost to get a new pair, I don't expect to receive a bill with it. I think this is similar to Pilar's distinction between charging for consulting and charging for an estimate. Nor do mechanics where I've lived charge for estimates, so maybe I'm just lucky not to live where Carolyn does. This is not to say I'm not still paying for these estimates in the long run; I always assume, when I go to a professional, that all sorts of costs are built into their fee structure. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:26:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn C. Sherayko" Subject: using thesauri in indexes An interesting comment was made at one of the sessions at the recent ASI meeting in Denver. The person making the comment warned the group to be careful when using published thesauri as a source for index terms because of possible copyright infringement. I've asked a friend of mine who has connections to the _Art & Architecture Thesaurus_ and she hadn't heard of problems with this. Has anyone else? Thanks. Carolyn Sherayko Bloomington, IN (csherayk@indiana.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:40:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: cliffu@WELL.COM Subject: Indexer Web Pages Could someone please send me the list of indexer pages? I accidently deleted my list, and cannot recover it! Thanks! PS - I have a web page that also includes some of my published librarian/indexer-related articles. One title is, "Will the Real Hypertext Please Stand Up?," which is about doing hypertext from a librarian's or indexer;s standpoint. Any responses I get I can put on this site and make links to it. Any feedback on the articles or web page would be very appreciated. It's at: http://www.mnsinc.com/curr Cliff Urr ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Charging for estimates Larry said, >Exactly! Thinking about getting paid by the client for each hour you work >for them is not the only model for asserting your professionalism. (Even >lawyers will usually agree to a free first consultation to discuss whether >their specialties, fees and practices are appropriate to your situation.) >In a business like indexing, where most of us get paid by the job, >considering yourself a professional can mean you consider your time >valuable and get paid for it *in the long run* as you get jobs at an >appropriate rate. If you want to think of your job bids as hourly >compensation, just make sure you figure in all those "non-billable" hours >like bookkeeping, invoicing, marketing, estimating, querying, etc. averaged >over your work year. I agree. Though in a case like Barb's, where an elaborate formal estimate is being required, I do think it's right to charge, mostly I see it as a cost of doing business. The more experienced you get, the less time it takes to bid on something. I also think that being willing to consult with my clients informally about style, pricing and so on makes them see me as a helpful resource, which after all is the model of business I'm trying to do. It's relationship building and definitely pays off in the long run. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:51:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes In a message dated 96-06-17 23:50:50 EDT, you write: > The editor has requested 3 indexes (names, subjects, and >references) for a book I am currently indexing. I have just started using >Macrex. My question is, how would you go about compiling the indexes? Would >you work all the way through each one separately, completing one, then the >next, then the next? Or, would you tackle all three simultaneously? You can do this a couple of ways. In Macrex, you can use the strip utility to label each entry for the index it belongs to, then separate them at the end (the original combined index is left intact). Look on page 10-21 of the manual for directions. I often do name and subject indexes for textbooks (three is rare!). I usually do three passes through the book: one (in a relaxed setting) looking up first initials of citations in the bibliography and marking them on the pages; one typing in the names to the name index; and a third for subjects. I do this because I tend to get distracted between names and subjects and miss things if I do them together, and also because subject indexing gives me a second check on the names. Lately I've been using Strip and doing these two passes into the same index, so that I can make name corrections as I go. This is just what works best for me--you'll have to find the way your mind works. Do Mi PS I charge a higher per page fee (usually $0.25) for multiple indexes. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 16:00:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Markinch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Multiple Indexes Did they survey the PDR users? That's a very, very useful multiple choice index. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:56:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: References I'm indexing a biography and under the heading for the subject have many sub-headings with many sub-sub-headings. I know that the standard format for leading readers to subheadings is "see xx under yy." However, is there any better format for references from one subheading to another subheading, bother under the same heading? For example I have Woolf, Virginia relationship with Leonard Woolf [many subsubheadings] -------separated by many other subheadings romantic life [many subsubheadings] To refer readers from "romantic life" to "relationship with Leonard Woolf, my instinct is to just use "see also relationship with Leonard Woolf." There is no such main heading. Will it be clear to the reader that this reference is to another subheading? Or should I use "see also relationship with Leonard Woolf under Woolf, Virginia," which seems strange to me as the reader is already "under" Woolf, Virginia. Any suggestions for handling this? Thanks. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:37:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Henderson Subject: Re: using thesauri in indexes >An interesting comment was made at one of the sessions at the recent ASI >meeting in Denver. The person making the comment warned the group to be >careful when using published thesauri as a source for index terms because >of possible copyright infringement. I've asked a friend of mine who has >connections to the _Art & Architecture Thesaurus_ and she hadn't heard of >problems with this. Has anyone else? Thanks. Well I haven't heard of problems as such, but as someone who publishes a thesaurus (my section, not me personally) - I know we look at some of the other thesauri in this country and can clearly see groups of terms which have been lifted from our own. We've never taken any steps to prevent this, and are pleased to see our thesaurus widely _acknowledged_ as a source for other lists of headings, and for internal purposes in other organisations, but we do get irritated when it's not acknowledged. There is a great deal of effort goes into compiling and maintaining a thesaurus, so we at least want some acknowledgement. Our thesaurus is certainly protected by copyright, as most others would be - but we are happy to assist other developers where we can - we provided a free machine-readable copy of the thesaurus to the developers of a new Australian Aboriginal thesaurus, and have had much useful dialogue about cooperation on such projects. Sandra Henderson Manager, National Bibliographic Publications National Library of Australia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 08:55:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Re: using thesauri in indexes -Reply Just to throw in my $0.02 worth on the subject of thesaurus use by indexers. I'm an editor at the Art and Architecture Thesaurus (AAT) mentioned by Carol. (Say, who is your AAT connection? Anyone I know? ) We certainly do not charge fees, or any copyright violation, for use of our terms or hierarchical structure. We exist to be used by indexers, cataloguers, people describing objects in museum collections, all those folks. They give us a reason for being. If they make themselves known to us, we send them our user newsletter, invite them to sign on to our discussion group AAT-L, and generally open the door as wide as possible, smiling as wide as possible. I have never heard of any thesauri, or any other type of controlled vocabulary, charging copyright for the use of their terms in indexes or catalogues. However, I agree fully with Sandra Henderson on the matter of other vocabularies using terms or entire sections of another thesaurus. Yes, its gratifying to see that someone agrees so completely with your selection and arrangement of terms, and yes, you feel you deserve some acknowledgement in the front matter. As Sandra says, compiling and maintaining a thesaurus involves a great deal of work - lexicographical research into term form, research into the concept itself behind any particular term, selection of descriptor vs. synonymous lead-in terminology (i.e., See references), and arranging the terms in a navigable, comprehensible structure, to allow access by browsing the hierarchies and following the Related Term (i.e., See Also references) trail, as well as direct alphabetical look-up. To date, the AAT has not suffered too much from the sort of unacknowledged borrowing Sandra describes. We are copyrighted of course, and so far as I am aware, that has been heeded and respected. Copyright certainly allows usage of the thesaurus for the purpose it is intended to fill, in indexing and cataloguing. Sandra, I'd be interested to hear something about your thesaurus. Could we exchange e-mails, and/or brochures? My e-mail address is below after my name. Thanks for listening. Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: References Fred: I'm involved in a hugh indexing project that requires extensive use of cross references both between and within individual topics. We (this is a group project) would use the following phrase: "Leonard Woolf, see Relationship with Leonard Woolf under this topic" Note that we use an upper case letter for the word immediately following "see" to alert the user to the exact phrase to look for. Just a suggestion... Regards, Terri Hudoba ** Imagination ** Indexers Plus is more important tahudoba@aol.com than knowledge. --Albert Einstein >I know that the standard format for leading readers to subheadings is "see xx >under yy." However, is there any better format for references from one >subheading to another subheading, bother under the same heading? > >For example I have > >Woolf, Virginia > relationship with Leonard Woolf > [many subsubheadings] >-------separated by many other subheadings > romantic life > [many subsubheadings] > >To refer readers from "romantic life" to "relationship with Leonard Woolf, my >instinct is to just use "see also relationship with Leonard Woolf." There is >no such main heading. Will it be clear to the reader that this reference is >to another subheading? Or should I use "see also relationship with Leonard >Woolf under Woolf, Virginia," which seems strange to me as the reader is >already "under" Woolf, Virginia. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 09:43:50 -0400 Reply-To: Sam Andrusko Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In-Reply-To: <199606210213.WAA65420@rs8.loc.gov> On Thu, 20 Jun 1996, Carolyn C. Sherayko wrote: > warned the group to be careful when using published thesauri as a source > for index terms because of possible copyright infringement. Ummm, I am not a copyright lawyer, but it is my understanding that the Supreme Court decision of several years ago threw out the "sweat of the brow" defense for copyrighting certain types of works (lists of names, telephone books, databases, etc.). They strictly interpreted the copyright law as a law intended to protect creative, imaginative, new works, not simply arrangements or collections of non-copyrightable facts or data--no matter how long it takes to compile ("sweat of the brow"). One cannot copyright facts or individual words, so doubt that "lifting" terms from a thesaurus is an infringement. However, the FORM of the thesaurus can be copyrighted, that is, the layout of the work, as I understand it. So if one photocopied the entire work, put his own name on it and then sold it, that would be infringement, but to take chunks of text and use it as one wants, well, I don't think that is an infringement. And I wonder if under this interpretation whether an index is truly copyrightable either--just the form of it. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 10:20:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri Sam Andrusko wrote: > Ummm, I am not a copyright lawyer, but it is my understanding that the >Supreme Court decision of several years ago threw out the "sweat of the >brow" defense for copyrighting certain types of works (lists of names, >telephone books, databases, etc.). They strictly interpreted the copyright >law as a law intended to protect creative, imaginative, new works, not >simply arrangements or collections of non-copyrightable facts or data--no >matter how long it takes to compile ("sweat of the brow"). >.... >And I wonder if under this interpretation whether an index is truly >copyrightable either--just the form of it. *ahem* I am not the first to say this, but let me point out that an index is not an arrangement or collection of words found in the text, but is a document created by the indexer to fill specific needs based on analysis of the text. It is, in every sense, a separate work from the text proper and is certainly copyrightable. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Freelance book indexing* Rochester, Minnesota *What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 12:52:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri I would say that wee have a legal ball of wax here. Not to take sides -- I would like clarification. What I'm reading is that the Supreme Court decision says (or can be interpreted as saying?) that databases are not copyright-able. I'm also reading from Larry Harrison's posting (which I agree with) that an index *is* copyright-able. Now .... let's review. Sam Andrusko said: > , but it is my understanding that the > Supreme Court decision of several years ago threw out the "sweat of the > brow" defense for copyrighting certain types of works (lists of names, > telephone books, databases, etc.). They strictly interpreted the copyright > law as a law intended to protect creative, imaginative, new works, not > simply arrangements or collections of non-copyrightable facts or data--no > matter how long it takes to compile ("sweat of the brow"). Also, that : > One cannot copyright facts or individual words, so doubt that > "lifting" terms from a thesaurus is an infringement. However, the FORM of > the thesaurus can be copyrighted, that is, the layout of the work, as I > understand it. So if one photocopied the entire work, put his own name on > it and then sold it, that would be infringement, but to take chunks of > text and use it as one wants, well, I don't think that is an infringement. Then Larry said: > an index is not an arrangement or collection of words found in the text, but is a > document created by the indexer to fill specific needs based on analysis of > the text. It is, in every sense, a separate work from the text proper and > is certainly copyrightable. OK. Now .... is it the nature of an index that makes it different from a database, and therefore copyrightable. Or is the Supreme Court ruling saying that the entire database *is* copyright-able -- in its entirety, as an original work, but not individual words or clumps of words taken from it? Is it the nature of the beast that creates a difference here, or the amount of it - whether a part of the whole, or the whole -- that is creating the issue. Can anybody clarify? Are there any attorneys out there who can shed some light on the copyright-ability of databases vis a vis indexes. Are they indeed both copyright-able, or not? Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 14:15:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri In a message dated 96-06-21 09:55:24 EDT, Sam wrote in part: > > Ummm, I am not a copyright lawyer, but it is my understanding that the >Supreme Court decision of several years ago threw out the "sweat of the >brow" defense for copyrighting certain types of works (lists of names, >telephone books, databases, etc.). They strictly interpreted the copyright >law as a law intended to protect creative, imaginative, new works, not >simply arrangements or collections of non-copyrightable facts or data--no >matter how long it takes to compile ("sweat of the brow"). and ventured... >And I wonder if under this interpretation whether an index is truly >copyrightable either--just the form of it. Sam, I think we'd be able to convince the Supreme Court that our efforts in crafting the perfect entry in words not always the author's, *creating* entries and cross-references anticipating readers' varying retrieval patterns, establishing connections between concepts that aren't explicit in the text, etc. are more than just "sweat of the brow" if an index were ever at issue. Or were you actually referring to machine-generated concordances masquerading as "indexes"? (IMHO, "sweating on a binary brow" through a few thousand iterations of Do... loops wouldn't count.) ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Infojo6363@AOL.COM Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri on Fri, Jun 21, 1996 12:02 pm EDT Larry Harrison wrote: >*ahem* I am not the first to say this, but let me point out >that an index >is not an arrangement or collection of words found in the >text, but is a >document created by the indexer to fill specific needs based >on analysis of >the text. It is, in every sense, a separate work from the text >proper and >is certainly copyrightable. Just curious - does anyone know of a case where this has actually been tested in a court of law? BTW, isn't there a Thesaurus Clearinghouse where you can register newly created origianl Thesauri? They may have more info re: copyrights on indexes and thesauri. jp ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 18:58:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: copyrighting thesauri I'm speaking as a person who has legal training, but not as a practicing attorney. I'm recalling things I learned more years ago than I care to remember. What I say is subject to correction if a better-informed person comes along. First: the form of a written work generally does not bear on its copyrightability. There is no rule that says an "index" is copyrightable, but a "database" is not. Only the originality of the work is significant. Second: a thesaurus would probably not fall in the same class as a phone book, which is a mere compilation of pre-existing facts (the phone numbers of the members of a certain set of telephone subscribers). It involves judgment in the selection and arrangement of the entries. In other words, it is an original work as much as an index or a book is. Third: I haven't boned up on the rules regarding fair use lately, but I am pretty confident that using a thesaurus to compile an index falls squarely in that category. It is an example of the type of use for which the protected work was intended; it does not reproduce any part of the work in recognizable form; and it would not tend to reduce demand for the protected work by others, for the same or for other purposes. If I used a thesaurus to prepare an index, I would not lose any sleep over the possibility of being sued by its author or publisher.