From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JUN-1996 06:11:39.93 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9605E" Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:49:43 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9605E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 10:17:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Folio Copies A while back, I initiated an inquiry about folio copies given to the indexer. As a result of the encouragement I got, I politely asked for a copy of a book I had been promised (I waited until six months from publication elapsed). Not only did I get the book--a very nice one--but also a short note with the only feedback I've gotten from this client: "Thanks for the wonderful job on this book." I will follow up with a note of thanks to the publisher. Thanks to everyone who answered my query. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 13:07:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Greenhouse" How Librarians Use Indexes The Washington D.C. ASI Chapter is sponsoring a meeting Saturday, 29 June 1996 at St. John's College Boathouse, overlooking College Creek, in Annapolis, MD. *ASI tshirts will be available for sale.* *Historic walking tour/pub crawl afterwards.* Schedule of Events 10:30 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. - Registration 11:00 a.m. - 12:00 p.m. - Business meeting 12:00 p.m. - 1:30 p.m. - Catered lunch 1:30 p.m. - 3:00 p.m. - Panel discussion: A panel of librarians will discuss how they view and use indexes in each of their specialties: Wendie C. Old - Helping Children Do Research in Libraries. Ms. Old is Children's Librarian at the Fallston Branch of the Harford County Library. In addition to helping children do research, Wendie has published several childrens' picture books and four Middle School ich biographies, which she indexed herself. Patricia V. Melville - Finding Aids Used in Archive Collections: Card Indexes vs.Databases. Ms. Melville is Director of Reference Services at the Maryland State Archives. Isabel W. Czech - The Science Citation Index and other projects. Ms. Czech is Director of Publisher Relations at the Institute for Scientific Information. Dr. Kerryn A. Brandt, MLS - Human vs. Machine Indexing on the Web (MeSH vs. Lycos). Dr. Brandt is Assistant Professor, Division of Biomedical Information Sciences, and Program Director, Information Management and Curriculum Support at the Welch Medical Library of Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine. Richard Shrout - Cataloging at the Department of Justice. Mr. Shrout is Assistant Director of Technical Services at the Department of Justice Main Library. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //// Register early to reserve a seat on metro shuttle and to get lunch. __________________________________________________________________ Name (as it will appear on registration badge) ___________________________________________________________________ Organization ___________________________________________________________________ Address _________________________________________________________________________ City State Zip Code E-mail __________________________________________________________ Telephone Fax Will you need a seat on the shuttle from New Carrollton metro?_________ (please indicate number) Vegetarian? Y N (for lunch) Registration Fee: Postmarked by 15 June 1996 (covers catered lunch) $25.00 Members; $30.00 Nonmembers. Cancellations require 3 days notice for refund (subject to a $5.00 processing fee). Send registration to Editorial Services, 619 Severn Ave., Suite 103, Annapolis, MD 21401 ATTN: DC-ASI Registration (please put in Subject field if registering by E-mail) or wiley@indexing.com. Shuttle will pick up from New Carrollton metro @10:00 a.m. and will leave the boathouse at 3:30 p.m. for return to New Carrollton metro station. St. John's College is located off Rt. 50, at the end of Rowe Boulevard. Maps and parking information will be provided with registration confirmation. Tshirts cost $15 for S, M, L, XL and youth sizes, $18 for XXL and XXXL, including tax. The shirt is natural with the ASI logo in green. (Looks just ke to Deborah Patton @ 1301 W. 42nd St., Baltimore, MD 21211. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 12:28:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@AOL.COM Subject: Massachusetts Chapter meeting, Sat. June 8 The Massachusetts chapter of ASI will meet on Saturday, June 8, Noon to 4 pm at the home of Ann Blum (treasurer of the Chapter and President of ASI) in Westboro, MA. Come celebrate our successful first year as a chapter, meet colleagues, and get involved in chapter activities. There will be a short review of the chapter's work since its organization, a report on elections, and brief remarks from members who attended the national conference in Denver. Lunch will be provided by the chapter. Please let Cindy Howe, chapter secretary, know if you plan to attend. Her email address is MAYSUP@mln.lib.ma.us, or e-mail me at Mrowland@aol.com for more information and directions. Hope to see lots of people there! Marilyn Rowland retiring President, Massachusetts Chapter, ASI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI Arizona/New Mexico Chap. meeting, Sat.6/15 The Arizona/New Mexico Chapter-in-formation will hold its next meeting on Saturday, June 15th, at the Memorial Union, Chrysocolla Room, at the Arizona State University campus in Tempe, AZ. An informal program and networking will include reports on the Denver national ASI conference and planning for fall events. Bylaws are being mailed out for approval -- the last step before our official request for chapter status to the American Society of Indexers Executive Committee. New Mexico indexers are planning a meeting for June 29th. The full chapter will meet again on Sept. 21st in Tucson. To add your name to our mailing list and to receive a newsletter and meeting announcement for the 6/15 meeting, please contact Nan Badgett, Chapter Secretary, at 76400.3351@compuserve.com or me, at jperlman@aol.com. For further information regarding the New Mexico gathering, contact Francine Cronshaw directly at cronshaw@unm.edu Janet Perlman Interim Chapter President ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 08:33:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Thanks and a question for the indexing community In-Reply-To: <9605290101.AA10805@mx3.u.washington.edu> This is a fairly frequent occurrence in the material I index. IMHO, if you're using standard page locators it really doesn't matter where the material appears on the page. A single locator is sufficient, since its purpose is simply to get the user to the page where the information on that topic can be found. The intervening material will of course have its own subject entries. Or if an extended discussion covers several pages ending at the top of one page with intervening material, then goes back to the same topic at the bottom of the page continuing for several more pages, I often use 65-69, 69-71 to indicate the break. If you're indexing with paragraph locators, e.g., 10.5, 10.7 (chapter#.paragraph#) then you obviously need more than one locator. As to whether or not the user may miss information at different locations on the same page, if the second (or first, for that matter!) mention is so minor that the user is likely to overlook it, is it really important enough for the indexer to be concerned about at all? The index provides location guidance for the user; it doesn't rewrite the text. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Tue, 28 May 1996, frank exner wrote: > I have a question that has been bothering me, and I would like to toss it > out to you. Recently I followed a locator to a text page and found two > relevant passages, separated by irrelevant material, on the same page. > Since I am basically paranoid, I wonder if this has happened to me before > when I only saw the first passage? If so, what information have I missed? > And how many users might have missed significant information for the same > reason? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 00:51:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Leise Subject: Chicago/Great Lakes Group meeting For your information, the following is information about the next meeting of the American Society of Indexers, Chicago/Great Lakes Group meeting. Marketing Tips and Techniques--a roundtable discussion to help you improve your business and increase your successful contacts Saturday, June 22, 1996, 10:00 am-1:00 pm, Meeting Room, 720 Gordon Terrace, Chicago, Illinois (for directions, contact Gerry van Ravenswaay at 312-665-2588) Join experienced indexers as they discuss their proven methods for expanding their client base and generating additional income. Gerry van Ravenswaay will present a summary of the marketing workshop presented at the ASI conference held in Denver on May 16-18. In addition, you ll hear a summary of other activities at the conference. Come share your ideas and experiences. Please bring copies of your letterhead, brochures, and other marketing materials for discussion. Be sure also to bring business cards to exchange with the other members; remember, networking is an important source of business. Cost: $10.00 in advance, $12.00 at the door. Includes coffee and pastries. For reservations or additional information, call Caryl J. Wenzel at 708-910-8112. Make your check payable and mail by June 15 to Caryl J. Wenzel, Group Treasurer, 8315 Route 53, #B14, Woodridge, IL 60517. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 06:13:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown <104571.560@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Slow Pays I would like to add my thanks for the discussions on this topic. I learned a great deal. I have some terrific ideas for the future. My client finally paid me, so that is no longer an issue. Thanks! Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cheryl A. Cherry" Subject: Enhancing Locators Frank Exner raised a question about guiding the reader to unconnected passages on a single topic on a single page. In his _Indexing, The Art of_ , G. Norman Knight describes use of the italicized Latin words bis (for twice), ter (for three times) and quater (for four times) after the page references in such cases. This results in entries of the form: swans, 291 bis I must say that the index of his book is the only place I ve ever noticed this practice. If you used this technique, an explanation would have to be included at the beginning of the index, as it is in Knight s book. In books for general readers the practice would probably be inappropriate. It would strike the reader as a confusing affectation. However, I sometimes find searching extremely dense pages of reference books to be very frustrating. I would welcome a clue to the number of times a topic is discussed. Knight s scheme, or the column or quadrant identifiers (I see these occasionally) described in Nancy Mulvaney s _Indexing Books_ would certainly add value to some indexes. Other points of view? I have been lurking for a while and hope to meet some of you at the 5 June trip to TAPSCO sponsored by the Philadelphia area ASI group. Regards, Cheryl A. Cherry cacherry11@aol.com FREELANCE TECHNICAL WRITING PROCESS CONTROL AND SOFTWARE MANUALS FOR ANY AUDIENCE ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators Cheryl, I had heard of "bis" etc, but have never seen it used. There used to be a convention of using "passim" to indicate scattered references, but that's old style, from old "library research" classical studies days. It's not used any more, that I know of. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:17:31 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter Subject: Re[2]: Enhancing Locators On 96-05-30.0820, Cheryl A. Cherry wrote: > Frank Exner raised a question about guiding the reader to > unconnected passages on a single topic on a single page. > In his _Indexing, The Art of_ , G. Norman Knight describes > use of the italicized Latin words bis (for twice), ter > (for three times) and quater (for four times) after the > page references in such cases. > (snip) And on 96-05-30.0840, Janet Perlman wrote: > There used to be a convention of using "passim" to indicate > scattered references, but that's old style, from old "library > research" classical studies days. It's not used any more, > that I know of. I've seen "passim" fairly often in scholarly material from before WWII -- Chicago Manual of Style nails it down well --, and I've seen "bis" once or twice in passing. Frank: I say it depends on the material and its audience. I'm fortunate to deal in 7x9-inch offset-style manuals set in 10-point font: for me the problem never arises. But if you've got >1200 words on every page with no column or quadrant divisions, I think you need to do _something_. (Yes, you can take the attitude that if the author has no pity, the index should follow the author's approach; but this is poor strategy in the long run). Maybe you could promote the entry to greater generality, so it truly does refer to both the first and the second passage _and_ the intervening text. In other words, change from flugelhorn obbligatos in mystery plays, 223 bis, 227 in obsequies, 228-30 to flugelhorn and alpenhorn obbligatos in mystery plays, 223-224, 227 in obsequies, 228-30 But this would be impractical if the problem arises many times. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sulochana Ravi Subject: Position announcement--Columbus, Ohio ***** Please excuse duplication. This message has ***** ***** been posted on several listservs. Thank you! ***** ONLINE/REFERENCE LIBRARIAN -------------------------- Battelle, a world leader in technology, research and professional services, has a challenging opportunity in its Technical Information Center (TIC) for a fulltime professional online/reference librarian. Position reports directly to the TIC manager. This position requires an M.L.S. degree in Library and Information Science (ALA accredited); excellent written, verbal and communication skills; organizational and reference interview skills; flexibility; the ability to prioritize; experience using major online information vendors, i.e., Knight-Ridder (Dialog), STN, DTIC, and OCLC's CAT and/or ILL subsystems; and working experience with html editors involving Internet homepage maintenance and Internet search tools such as telnet, ftp, gopher and www. An undergraduate degree in a science-related background, experience with a PC networking environment and the ability to troubleshoot PC problems during library automation implementation processes, and familiarity with Windows (especially Windows95) environment, DialogLink and STN Express software highly desired. Responsibilities will include being part of a small and busy team performing full reference service for Battelle staff and clients, staffing the reference and circulation desks, working closely with research staff, performing technical-based literature searches as needed using a combination of online, CD-ROM and Internet resources, maintaining and enhancing TIC's internal homepage using an html editor and assisting with Internet training sessions, processing interlibrary loans, cataloging, collection development projects and other ongoing TIC projects as needed. This position is located at Battelle's Columbus, Ohio, World Headquarters. Battelle offers a comprehensive package of compensation and benefits. The salary range begins in the low 30's. Limited relocation assistance may be available. Position is available after June 7, 1996. Qualified candidates should submit a cover letter and resume to: Battelle Employment, Department J-148 505 King Avenue Columbus, Ohio 43201-2693 Battelle is an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer M/F/D/V. BATTELLE .... Putting Technology To Work ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:04:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Re[2]: Enhancing Locators In-Reply-To: <9605301839.AA22539@mx5.u.washington.edu> The issue of using 'bis' came up on this list about a year ago, and at that time virtually NOBODY knew what it meant; and if the professional indexers don't understand it, what's a poor index user to do? My position at that time (which has not changed) is that bis, passim, and other latin terms favored in footnotes (and indexes) back in the dark ages when I was writing my library school dissertation are refinements that serve only to confuse a contemporary index user, except (possibly) in very scholarly works. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In a message dated 96-05-30 11:16:12 EDT, Cheryl wrote: >Frank Exner raised a question about guiding the reader to unconnected >passages on a single topic on a single page. In his _Indexing, The Art of_ , >G. Norman Knight describes use of the italicized Latin words bis (for twice), >ter (for three times) and quater (for four times) after the page references >in such cases. Cheryl, The last time someone mentioned "bis" and "ter" on the INDEX-L "tree", did the starlings ever rise en masse to twitter!!! And just as the flock was settling down again, the poor fellow who first asked about it inadvertently shook the tree again by saying in effect, "I was just asking, not intending to actually *use* it; the sky blackened anew and the Earth almost ceased to rotate on its axis. (Never did see a post again by him, come to think of it.) To say that Knight's "bis" and "ter" usage is unpopular with many indexers (myself included) is a distinct understatement. Just thought you and anyone who's joined the list since last summer when this happened would enjoy this tidbit of list history. ;-D I agree that a headnote would have to be used to explain any scheme for indicating multiple mentions on a page, however, I always wonder how often index users even see headnotes or even look for them. Even as a professional indexer, I never think to look for one when I land in an index on a page other than the first, despite having used them in my own indexes on rare occasion. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 21:37:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jim Mancall Subject: Advice for Beginner Wanted In-Reply-To: <9605310034.AA14658@is.nyu.edu> Dear Indexers: I've been lurking on this group for about 4 months now and learning a lot from the conversations. I'd like some advice, if possible, on how to begin building my indexing business. I know this topic may have limited interest for veteran indexers, so please feel free to respond to me off-list. Let me explain my position. For the last 5 years, I have been working for an indexing firm. I have indexed, proofread and edited indexes on a wide range of books: everything from biology textbooks to true crime. I worked in-house for the first three years or so, and then on a free-lance basis for the last two. It's been a great experience working for this firm, but it doesn't pay very well, so I need to find other places I can index for. Earlier this year, I friend recommended me to a publisher. That worked out very well. I've been indexing for the publishing house since then, but the work is not constant. My question is: How do I go about finding other clients? How do I market myself? Are there pitfalls to avoid? Or tips you might be able to pass on? Thanks in advance for your help. Jim Mancall ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Advice for Beginner Wanted Jim, You are in a perfect position to hit the free-lance market. Despite the paucity of clients, you've got enough indexing experience to make up a good resume. I'd do some basic research in Literary Market Place (available in the reference section of libraries, lists publishers, their specialties, how many books they publish each year, and names key staff such as editorial supervisor, production supervisor). Make a list of publishers you'd be interested in working for, according to the type of books they publish. Make up a good resume - 2 pages at most, highlighting your indexing experience and any other pertinent experience. Stress your skills. I'd include, or have as an attachment, a list of books indexed, with publishers' names, like a bibliography, to show the range of experience. If you are picking out publishers in certain industries, or niches, I'd tailor the list more toward their kind of books. You can have several such lists, depending on the type of publisher, if you like. Then I'd send out a million letters and resumes, with attached list of references if you can (be sure to advise people you're using them as a reference so they're not taken by surprise). Some people do follow-up by phone soon after. I've never found this to be fruitful, and I usually don't. I find that resumes tend to sit in files for quite a while, so send out batches, each month, and soon you'll have a couple of clients, and a couple more, and so on. It may take a year or so to build to "critical mass," but it will. Another thing you need to do is to join local networking groups and talk it up, advertise yourself all over. Offer to talk on indexing to writers groups, or any other professional groups where applicable. Join the American Society of Indexers - PLEASE! - and get active in a local group. Network wherever you can, get to know people. I guarantee that if you do quality work, you'll suceed with these suggestions. I wish you luck! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 01:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing It depends on two things: (1) your preferred software and (2) the format most of your clients want. Both MACREX and CINDEX come in DOS versions; CINDEX has just come out with a version for the Macintosh. I am a MACREX user with an IBM-compatible computer. Although I have both types of computer available (the Mac actually belongs to my husband) and offer clients whichever they prefer, I so far have had only one who wanted a Macintosh disk. In fact, most of my clients want their indexes in WordPerfect 5.1 DOS version. Several years ago, when WordPerfect 6.0 for DOS first became available, I foolishly bought a copy but still haven't got around to loading it because there is no need for it. Later I upgraded one of my computers to Windows95 (BIG mistake), and have had both Microsoft Word 7.0 and WordPerfect 6.1 for Windows, which I do not use for indexes since my clients apparently don't use either of them. I do scholarly indexing (mostly), and quite a bit of my work is for professional societies or nonprofit presses that seem to have tight budgets and no reason to upgrade their wordprocessing software. This is hardly a definitive answer, but perhaps it will give you something to think about. Jeanne Moody ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 06:40:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators I used to have this problem when I indexed the Year's Work in English Studies. I would simply add the number of times the subject was mentioned in brackets after the page number, e.g. literary theory 114(5), 234(2), 333-4 I put a note at the beginning of the index to explain this. I never got any feedback about it, but it seemed the obvious thing to do (yes, Lynn, I also have this sneaking feeling that no-one ever reads headnotes...) `Bis' is, I agree, very obscure. `Passim' is a bit different - there's been quite a bit of discussion in the (British) Society of Indexers' Newsletter about this, and it certainly is considered alive and well by a substantial number of indexers in the UK. I don't use it, but I can see that it's quite useful for scattered references over a page range. Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 02:45:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leslie Frank Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing I presently use a PC, but used In>Sort on a Mac for the first 4 years I freelanced. A lot of people wanted and could use the Mac disk, but I prefer Cindex and I prefer the PC now that I have switched. Of course, a lot of that has to do with the fact that my PC is more powerful, more updated, etc. I have Win. 95, and I love it. I don't think the switch would have been as easy without it. And Cindex has been great. It's a wonderful program and the support is great. I just sent them a disk with an In>sort file on it, and they converted it and got it back to me in no time. On the other hand, the producer of In>sort disappeared off the face of the earth for a while and I had no product support at all. The other thing to consider is the condition of Apple. They are floundering and have discontinued making mid and low level computers. I think, unless they buck up, you will find fewer and fewer using Mac formats. Just some thoughts. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:35:21 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Passim "Passim" is alive and well in New Zealand, too. At any rate, I use it, if it will save space, but I accept that the word means nothing to some quite well-educated index users. I have never submitted any of my indexes for consideration for the AusSI award, because I know that the judging panels routinely disapprove of "passim" (and also of long strings of undifferentiated page numbers, although obviously there are occasions when such long strings are necessary and right). Can anyone suggest an English translation of "passim" suitable for use in an index? After all, there's nothing wrong with the concept. The problem is merely that unLatinate readers don't know what "passim" means, but to substitute the English "here and there" seems, well, contra-indicated, if you see what I mean. Any suggestions? From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton 2001, New Zealand Telephone & facsimile +64 7 854 9229 E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 05:23:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Passim In a message dated 96-05-31 03:37:30 EDT, Simon wrote: > I have never submitted any of my indexes for >consideration for the AusSI award, because I know that the judging panels >routinely disapprove of "passim" (and also of long strings of >undifferentiated page numbers, although obviously there are occasions when >such long strings are necessary and right). Simon, Your parenthetical statement about occasions necessitating long strings of undifferentiated page numbers intrigues me. The only situation that I can think of demanding their use is when a publisher gives such a ridiculously small amount of space for an index that the indexer can use very few subentries. If you have other examples in mind, please, please elaborate. Thanks! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 05:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing I use PCs (a Pentium and a 486) for indexing, despite the fact that some of my clients use Macintoshes. (I don't have them hardwired together yet in a physical network, but use AOL to transfer files between them. Don't try this at home unless you can log on at 38.4K. ;-D) Only once (and this was when I first started indexing and didn't know how to work around this issue then) did I miss out on a potential project because the publisher insisted on a Macintosh. I solve compatibility issues by a) saving word-processed indexes from MS Word as Word for the Macintosh files and b) delivering indexes via modem to get around incompatible disk format issues. (And that's really no great problem because Macintoshes can read PC-formatted disks. However, a few times, clients have inadvertently sent *me* files on Mac-formatted disks which indeed causes a problem because PCs can't read them. Clients have re-Fedexed me files when that happens, but of course you lose a day with that.) Another solution is saving files, including from Macrex and probably Cindex, as .RTF files. (I also have WordPerfect, but no one has asked me for WordPerfect files.) Embedded indexing is a slightly different story in terms of crossing platforms. If the Macintosh files that the client sends you contain characters above ASCII value 128 (e.g., bullets, etc.), the characters will change in the translation across platforms. (Macs and PCs assign different characters between ASCII values 128 and 256 as I understand it.) Apparently this didn't cause too much of a problem when it occured because the clients involved haven't seemed to really mind. I think that FrameMaker files translate pretty cleanly when converted to .MIF files at each end. (I tried this once with a PC-based client in a weird experiment we were doing in sending files over the Internet via email, but the AOL mail gateway broke the file into at least 30 little pieces that I wasn't about to stitch back together. So, I can't say how well .MIF files convert from personal experience.) With FrameMaker, I have a totally unplatform-related problem of it remapping fonts when I don't have exactly the same ones as the client (despite having hundreds of fonts on my machine!). Now, another client and I, in a sort of goofy experiment, modem'ed MS Word files back and forth across platforms so many times that they eventually became gibberish. (I forget why we sent the same files back and forth four times.) BTW, I run Macrex as a DOS window in a Win95 environment which I'm usually very pleased with. (The only problem I seem to have is if I hit the F5 key while in Group mode which inexplicably suddenly shuts down Macrex under Win95. I've learned not to do that after losing quite a bit of work a few times. This never happened in Win 3.1.) Only once have I had a program crash (FrameMaker) take Win95 down with it in its death throes. (The same cannot be said for Win 3.1 which often goes down in flames along with the malfunctioning program.) The bottom line in my personal experience has been that using a PC with Mac-based clients has not been a major problem and that a PC is, IMHO, preferable because industrial-strength dedicated indexing software is written for PCs. Yes, I know MacChurch congregants will respond that you can install a DOS emulation card in a Mac to run Macrex and Cindex. ;-D But, if you're outfitting your business from scratch and don't have some compelling need for a Mac, why clunk along with an emulation? Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:46:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Passim & brief introd. In-Reply-To: <199605310737.DAA71007@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, I too have been lurking for several weeks now and have found much of the discussion very informative and useful, esp. the discussion on the USDA course--which prompted me to make use of my primitive internet skills and actually query the listserv for the index to Index-L and ask that some of the logs to be sent to me in order to read the entire discussion on the USDA courses. I actually managed to do this within a few (three or so) attempts! The trouble with finding a substitute for passim is that it is such a handy one-word term for an otherwise bulky phrase. But, technically speaking, isn't passim intended to indicate that something appears within a range of pages, not one page? That is, "35 passim" means something is mentioned (briefly or in a scattered fashion) on p. 35 AND the following page(s) and not that it is mentioned several times on just p. 35? On the one hand, I feel a reader presumably should at least scan an entire page and not stop at the first mention simply because he would want to make sure he has not missed any information about the term. Pontius Pilate-like, I see nothing wrong with holding the user of the index responsible for this. Perhaps worrying about this problem is an attempt to be too useful, too precise in most indexing situations. On the other hand, human nature being what it is ... well, why not help them out? I have seen some genealogical indexes put the number of times a name is mentioned (if more than once) in parens after the locator (as someone has already illustrated) and I think that is fine for that type of work. But generaly speaking, I don't think an indexer should spend time counting, esp. if it he must do it repeatedly throughout the book. At first I thought that the closest, usable one-word term in English might be "several" or "scattered" in italics (natch), but it just looks wrong (to me) to see that in an index, but it might catch on if commonly used by indexers. E.g., term, 21-24, 35 scattered, 41-44. Hmmm, I dunno. A better (?) suggestion: put a (superscript) asterisk after the locator (e.g. 31* (sorry, but can't do superscripts on Pine) and explain in the headnote what it means. Surely, seeing asterisks scattered throughout an index should prompt even a semi-conscious user to wonder what they mean and perhaps encourage him to read the headnote--as a former reference librarian, I know however that he will wander up to the nearest warm-bodied librarian and ask, What does this asterisk mean? ;) (Perhaps a footer could appear on each page of the index explaining the asterisk?) Or instead of the asterisk perhaps a (superscript) plus-sign might be better as that evokes arithmetic "images," at least in my little brain, and seems to imply "more", e.g., "term, 24-26, 31+, 41-45". That does not look too bad either, I think, if explained in the headnote or footer (so that it does not look like a modern, trendier "passim" or "ff." substitute). Well, that's my .02 cents! Thanks to everyone for some wonderfully informative discussions these past few weeks (and months, from reading the the logs). I look forward to many more. Cheers! Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 08:56:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Jeanne Moody wrote: (snip) > CINDEX has just come out with a version for the Macintosh.... Really?!! Where has this been advertised? (And why now, when we've just bought enough memory, finally, to run the DOS version on our Mac with SoftPC?) Would some kind soul verify for me whether there really is a Mac version of Cindex? -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:58:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ksmith Subject: an opportunity Hello - As a new subscriber to this list, please excuse me if the following post is not typical fare. We are in search of an individual, preferably in the MD, DC or VA area, who might be interested in working on a large project for our web site Learner Online. We are looking for someone with the following background and qualifications - - familiar and comfortable with the World Wide Web - experienced in research - background in library or information sciences - able to coordinate and manage large projects - experienced in writing and editing - interested in exploring how the Web can be used for learning The person would develop and manage this project, including updating content on a regular and frequent basis. The project would be ongoing for at least the next year. We are looking preferably for someone who is working as a consultant and is interested in taking on another project. We are not looking to hire a person on full-time, although we would consider a part-time employment arrangement. We are interested in bringing this person on board as soon as possible. If you are interested or know of others who are, please contact me by June 10th. I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Kimberly Smith Manager of Interactive and Direct Marketing Services The Annenberg/CPB Project Washington, DC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:02:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Yvette Scheven Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing Maryann, A few weeks ago I queried the list about software for the Mac, and got a couple of responses mentioning CINDEX. It will be available in July. Just this week I received an ad for it. It requires a 68020 processor or higher, system 7.0 or higher. You'll probably be hearing direct from CINDEX. Yvette Scheven yvette ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 07:27:13 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: ESSAY (long) on undifferentiated page numbers Lynn Moncrieff asks me to explain why I think there are occasions when long strings of undifferentiated page numbers are "necessary and right". Well, first of all, what is a long string? More than five locators? More than seven? More than twelve? More than twenty? Whichever figure you choose, there are likely to be some headwords in your index which gather one or two or several more locators than your arbitrarily chosen maximum and yet don't deserve or require to be broken down into subheadings. Here are two examples I have just been looking at in two of my own indexes: National Union of Societies for Equal Citizenship (UK), 296, 298, 299, 300, 305, 321, 322, 325, 326, 327 [The organisation is briefly mentioned on those pages but nothing much is said about it except that an article was published in its journal, or two of its members wrote to Parliament in its name, or there were resignations from its executive, or it had a membership drive, etc. etc.; there is no in-depth discussion of the organisation, but it does need to be indexed since the book is about women's suffrage. Much to my embarrassment I can't find a mention of NUSEC on p. 327, unless there is an implied reference in the statement that neither Margaret Thatcher nor Barbara Castle belonged to "any specific feminist organisations or causes". See _Suffrage and Beyond: International Feminist Perspectives_, edited by Caroline Daley and Melanie Nolan, Auckland University Press/Pluto Press Australia, 1994.] Doyle, Harry [with 30 locators, all but three of them to a single page, the longest continuous discussion being in pages 131-41. Harry Doyle was the long-term yet frequently absent lover of the subject of the biography, the homosexual New Zealand short-story writer Frank Sargeson. All the essential information about him is to be found in pages 131-41. On page 324, to take a random example, Sargeson is said to be having electricity installed in his house in an effort to persuade Doyle, now aged sixty, to move in with him permanently. All the other single-page references are to similar little details (mention of a photograph, repeated absences). See Michael King, _Frank Sargeson: A Life_, Auckland, Viking, 1995.] The general principle I follow is this. If a topic or person is central to the book, the index entry must be broken down quite finely, with appropriate subheadings and perhaps even subsubheadings. If the topic or person is marginal, then it is permissible to have quite long strings of undifferentiated locators, and the more marginal the topic or person is, the longer the strings can be--- especially if (as in the entry for Harry Doyle above) it's easy to see where the substantive discussion is. Any comments and feedback, positive or negative, very welcome. See also Alan Walker's discussion of this topic on pp. 70-71 of his conference paper "Maintaining indexing principles while breaking the rules of thumb" in _Indexers---Partners in Publishing: Proceedings from the First International Conference, Friday March 31 to Sunday April 2, 1995, Marysville, Victoria, Australia_, edited by M. J. McMaster, Australian Society of Indexers, 1995, pp. 63-73. ISBN 0 646 25050 7 One last example, from someone else's index that I edited recently. A young sailor serving in the New Zealand Navy was killed in action during the Korean War. All but one of the references to him are confined to one brief passage in the book (about six pages). The index entry---I'm quoting from memory---had about six subentries, e.g. "applies to join raiding party", "killed", "body not recovered", "biography", etc. In my view all that was needed was a simple entry, say: "X----, 231-6 _passim_, 457" or perhaps even just "X----, 231-6, 457". From Simon Cauchi, 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton 2001, New Zealand Telephone & facsimile +64 7 854 9229 E-mail: cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 16:15:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leslie Frank Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing I just spoke with Cindex last week and they told me that they did have the mac version. They were going to send me the info on it. You might give them a call 716-461-3924. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:38:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Long strings of locators In-Reply-To: <9605310927.AA08131@mx4.u.washington.edu> One other reason when long strings are appropriate: when you're indexing names, book titles, etc., and the client requires that every single mention get indexed. In a recent book on Chinese rheumatology I ended up with as many as 20-30 undifferentiated locators for passing mentions of classic Chinese medicine titles. (This doesn't include the entries where I was able to assign subheadings for the same titles.) I cringed, checked back THREE separate times with the client to make sure he REALLY wanted that, and then shipped the index. I didn't like it, but I did it. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Fri, 31 May 1996, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > In a message dated 96-05-31 03:37:30 EDT, Simon wrote: > > >undifferentiated page numbers, although obviously there are occasions when > >such long strings are necessary and right). > > Simon, > > Your parenthetical statement about occasions necessitating long strings of > undifferentiated page numbers intrigues me. The only situation that I can > think of demanding their use is when a publisher gives such a ridiculously > small amount of space for an index that the indexer can use very few > subentries. If you have other examples in mind, please, please elaborate. > Thanks! > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:57:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Do Mi Stauber Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators Lynn wrote: > >I agree that a headnote would have to be used to explain any scheme for >indicating multiple mentions on a page, however, I always wonder how often >index users even see headnotes or even look for them. Even as a professional >indexer, I never think to look for one when I land in an index on a page >other than the first, despite having used them in my own indexes on rare >occasion. > Oh dear, Lynn, I've done the same thing! What does this mean??!! Of course, research tells us that most users don't know that there might be two indexes and don't know what "see also" means, either...I don't quite know what to do with this information...is our existence useless after all??? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 11:59:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Type of computers used in indexing In-Reply-To: <9605311821.AA01360@mx3.u.washington.edu> Cindex for the Mac was demo'd in Denver, and it looks great; will do everything the DOS version does, and then some. If I weren't already firmly in the WinTel camp... I asked Francis during the demo how the Mac version compares with Cindex for Windows, which is under develop and now predicted for 1997 release. She says the Windows version will have most/all the features of the Mac version. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Fri, 31 May 1996, Yvette Scheven wrote: > Maryann, A few weeks ago I queried the list about software for the Mac, > and got a couple of responses mentioning CINDEX. It will be available in > July. Just this week I received an ad for it. It requires a 68020 > processor or higher, system 7.0 or higher. You'll probably be hearing > direct from CINDEX. > > Yvette Scheven > > yvette > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:13:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Windows 95 In-Reply-To: <199605310647.XAA15035@spork.callamer.com> I just unpacked my shiny new 133Mhz Pentium blah, blah, blah...which has come loaded with W95. I'm still in the process of tranferring files and programs (have yet to actually try out anything like Macrex), but thought some of our experienced users could describe problems (or successes) they've had with using indexing software (or anything else) under W95. I can see there is a DOS prompt (and apparently several other ways to get down to DOS), so I'm assuming that Macrex will run okay. Any tips or hints? Thanks. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:06:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In-Reply-To: <199605301538.IAA19315@spork.callamer.com> > There used to be a convention of using "passim" to indicate scattered > references, but that's old style, from old "library research" classical > studies days. It's not used any more, that I know of. Janet, on rare occasions I have resorted to "passim" to indicate passing references on a range of pages, which, if taken separately would not be worth indexing but as a whole, have some value. I've never used it to indicate several references on a single page. Someone else brought up the idea of page quadrants, or some other physical division that would enable you to make a closer locator. I think this is a great idea for some very dense reference books. Bartlett's Quotations, for example, gives a page AND column reference in its indexes, and it's a real help. Now, if we could only get publishers to print more books in two-column format... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 10:08:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators In-Reply-To: <199605310032.RAA16792@spork.callamer.com> Lynn, your suggestion about a headnote is well-taken. More indexes need them; and if they have them, then somebody somewhere gets to standardize the terminology to suit. (Maybe we professionals?) Then "somebody" will decide on how to indicate several references on a single page, many passing references on a range of pages, etc. As it is, I use headnotes fairly frequently because I am usually called upon to index illustrations (usually I use italicized page numbers) and defined terms (for these I prefer bold). So right there, I'm "training" the reader in a new system of looking things up. Add a few other indicators, and voila! You have a serious (and helpful) headnote. I'd never heard of the "bis" thing until I scanned Nancy Mulvaney's book. But I had seen (and understood) the use of _passim_ since I started reading "real" books that had "real" indexes. It's my feeling that _passim_, at least, is understood by at least the more serious scholarly text perusers and index users. Nonetheless, if we're thinking in terms of paradigm-switching (wherein we actually come up with some solutions to these sorts of problems and create some new standards for terminology), headnotes are an essential partner in the endeavor. Then we can teach, however subliminally, the reader how to more accurately use our index. (BTW, the above discussion really only applies to serious books and serious indexes. It's quite doubtful that the next biography of Marilyn Monroe will need an extensive headnote and reference system.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:24:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Windows 95 In a message dated 96-05-31 18:08:41 EDT, you write: >I can see there is a DOS prompt (and apparently several other ways to get >down to DOS), I have been using CINDEX under Win95 since October. No problems whatsoever with CINDEX. (Don't get me started on Win95.) No need to get down to DOS. Just drag the program file for whatever indexing program you are using to the desktop and drop it. Either copy it or create a shortcut. I prefer shortcuts. Thereafter, start the program by clicking on the desktop icon. Furthermore, you can create an association between your index files and the indexing program so that clicking on the file invokes the index program. You can also drag and drop the files to the desktop and just click on the file to start indexing. For instance, I have all files of type NDX associated with CINDEX. When I start a new project, I start CINDEX and create a new file. I then drag the file to the desktop and give it a descriptive name. An index on a book about client/server programming is named CSPROG.NDX. On my desktop, this is represented by an icon with the label "client server index." There is one little quirk about naming the desktop shortcuts. For each icon, Win95 creates an underlying file with a filetype of LNK and a filename the same as the label. Somewhere on my hard disk, there is a file called "CLIENT SERVER INDEX.LNK" that contains the links between the icon and its associated files. Therefore, icon labels must conform to Win95 filename conventions, which exclude certain special characters. I cannot, for instance, name my icon "client/server index" because the slash is not valid for a filename. I realize this is probably more than you wanted to know, so feel free to contact me for details. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 15:55:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Lee Bihlmayer Subject: Re: Win95 Sonsie writes: >I just unpacked my shiny new 133Mhz Pentium blah, blah, blah...which has >come loaded with W95. I'm still in the process of tranferring files and >programs (have yet to actually try out anything like Macrex), but thought >some of our experienced users could describe problems (or successes) >they've had with using indexing software (or anything else) under W95. >I can see there is a DOS prompt (and apparently several other ways to get >down to DOS), so I'm assuming that Macrex will run okay. Any tips or hints? I've had no problem running any software that is compatible with the current versions of DOS in the Win95 environment. There is no doubt whatsoever that Macrex will run okay; to be absolutely sure, you might want to choose Shut Down... from the Start button and turn on the radio button that restarts the computer in MS-DOS mode. I've had a few crashes and bugs here and there while running DOS apps from the MS-DOS prompt without totally exiting out of Win95. As far as transferring files and programs is concerned...be aware that not all your Windows 3.x applications will be compatible with Win95. The only 16-bit (i.e., Windows 3.x) app I've found that runs flawlessly on this platform is FrameMaker. Lots of others won't even load or launch, and of those that launch, a great many crash and freeze the system before you've clicked and dragged half a dozen times. Those that don't run verrry slooooowly. All the major software companies (except for Frame) have come out with Win95 versions of their software, and you'd be wise to contact the manufacturers of your software packages and order upgrades. It's an additional monetary outlay but well worth the investment. If you upgrade all your applications to native 32-bit mode (in other words, Win95 versions), you'll have a virtually crash-free computing experience. One positive thing I can say about my experiences so far with Win95 is that I've not once seen that dreaded alert box telling me I've generated a General Protection Fault and must save my work in a different file, etc. Sarah |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 16:11:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Win95 In-Reply-To: <9605312303.AA20460@mx5.u.washington.edu> The biggest headache I had in conversion to Win95 (and yes, I did upgrade virtually all my applications software) was that the built-in Win95 Backup won't read QIC80 Wide tape media - which is what my tape backup drive uses. So until I could get an upgraded version of the Connor Backup software I was out of luck; but after calling and nagging Connor they sent me a FREE Win95 software upgrade and I was back in business. (My tape drive is about 2 years old. I was prepared to pay for the software upgrade but didn't have to. Connor is nice people!) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Fri, 31 May 1996, Sarah Lee Bihlmayer wrote: > Sonsie writes: > > >I just unpacked my shiny new 133Mhz Pentium blah, blah, blah...which has > >come loaded with W95. I'm still in the process of tranferring files and > >programs (have yet to actually try out anything like Macrex), but thought > >some of our experienced users could describe problems (or successes) > >they've had with using indexing software (or anything else) under W95. > >I can see there is a DOS prompt (and apparently several other ways to get > >down to DOS), so I'm assuming that Macrex will run okay. Any tips or hints? > > I've had no problem running any software that is compatible with the current > versions of DOS in the Win95 environment. There is no doubt whatsoever that > Macrex will run okay; to be absolutely sure, you might want to choose Shut > Down... from the Start button and turn on the radio button that restarts the > computer in MS-DOS mode. I've had a few crashes and bugs here and there > while running DOS apps from the MS-DOS prompt without totally exiting out of > Win95. > > As far as transferring files and programs is concerned...be aware that not > all your Windows 3.x applications will be compatible with Win95. The only > 16-bit (i.e., Windows 3.x) app I've found that runs flawlessly on this > platform is FrameMaker. Lots of others won't even load or launch, and of > those that launch, a great many crash and freeze the system before you've > clicked and dragged half a dozen times. Those that don't run verrry slooooowl y. > > All the major software companies (except for Frame) have come out with Win95 > versions of their software, and you'd be wise to contact the manufacturers > of your software packages and order upgrades. It's an additional monetary > outlay but well worth the investment. If you upgrade all your applications > to native 32-bit mode (in other words, Win95 versions), you'll have a > virtually crash-free computing experience. One positive thing I can say > about my experiences so far with Win95 is that I've not once seen that > dreaded alert box telling me I've generated a General Protection Fault and > must save my work in a different file, etc. > > > Sarah > > > |"God is in the details." -- Frank Lloyd Wright| > |Sarah Lee Bihlmayer * Intranet Documentation Specialist | > | Indexing * Developmental Editing * Technical Writing | > |Site Development * Content Creation * Content Management| > | 415-207-4046 * sarahlee@contentmanage.com | > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leslie Frank Subject: Re: Windows 95 Sonsie, Being a sworn mac user to begin with, I found Win95 easy. I loaded Cindex (sorry, not Macrex) on the way I was instructed to by Cindex, created a shortcut for it by adding it to the Start menu, and now all I have to do is scroll the Start menu to access Cindex. I never have to leave Win95. The only difference is, when I'm working in Cindex I cannot use the mouse, I have to follow all the Cindex/Dos conventions. When I exit Cindex, I'm back in Win95. Thank God, I have never had to move in and out of Dos. I would be lost. If you have any specific questions, email me. Good luck, Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:29:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Enhancing Locators >>Of course, research tells us that most users don't know that there might be two indexes and don't know what "see also" means, either...I don't quite know what to do with this information...is our existence useless after all??? Do Mi<< Does the fact that most people don't understand theology mean that there should be no priests? ;-) Allison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 21:47:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cheryl A. Cherry" Subject: Enhancing Locators I enjoyed reading the feedback on bis, ter, etc. I'm sticking to my guns! As an index user, there are times I would welcome additional guidance when searching dense pages. (Lynn, I enjoyed the bird imagery. No fear that I won't post again -- I've worked with software engineers for so many years that I have developed a hide like a rhino!) Regards, Cheryl A. Cherry FREELANCE TECHNICAL WRITING PROCESS CONTROL AND SOFTWARE MANUALS FOR ANY AUDIENCE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 19:11:39 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Carpenter Subject: Re: Useless efforts? On Fri 05-31 at 18:32 Allison wrote, > >> Of course, research tells us that most users don't know > >> that there might be two indexes and don't know what > >> "see also" means, either...I don't quite know what to do > >> with this information...is our existence useless after > >> all??? Do Mi<< > > Does the fact that most people don't understand theology > mean that there should be no priests? > > ;-) > Allison > Indeed, maybe there _should_ be no priests; but the premise does not support the conclusion. A better analogy would be, "Does the fact that most people don't understand Latin mean that Mass should not be celebrated?" Indexes are like instrument panels: everybody uses them, a lot of people depend on them, but hardly anyone takes the time to become thoroughly familiarized with every nuance. Some people who don't know the word "odometer" nonetheless can guess pretty well at their miles-per-gallon; and some folks who couldn't define the meaning of "See also" still somehow figure out where to look for stuff. To me it seems clear that indexing is like all other work that require talent, discipline, and craftsmanship: while the work may be used with profit and enjoyment by the many, its very finest aspects are rarely noticed except by fellow artisans, and often cherished only by connoisseurs. This applies to cooking, plumbing, and housework just as much as it does to theology and literature. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 12:36:57 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Philosophical views of users At 20:58 28/05/96 -0400, Frank Exner wrote: >I have a question that has been bothering me, and I would like to toss it >out to you. Recently I followed a locator to a text page and found two >relevant passages, separated by irrelevant material, on the same page. >Since I am basically paranoid, I wonder if this has happened to me before >when I only saw the first passage? If so, what information have I missed? >And how many users might have missed significant information for the same >reason? I come to indexing from a background in psychology and training, and maybe that warps my perception of users, but my subjective impression from using indexes myself and from discussing indexes with other people is that typical users are pretty careless, and use indexes carelessly. If an entry directs them to page 27 they'll have a look on page 26 and page 28 as well, just in case, and if they're looking for information on Newts they'll probably have a look under Lizards and Salamanders as well. On the other hand, if they're looking for, say, 'Colour matching' and 'Color matching' is a few lines away in the index they may well miss it altogether. So my view is that any such trivial 'failures' on the part of the indexer are swamped by the much greater 'failures' in the way that the index is typically used, which in turn are often compounded by 'failures' in the way the book is organised. One consequence of this view is that the I believe the indexer's best approach is to make the index as 'flat' and uncomplicated as possible. Better to have one user miss an entry than have twenty users send themselves on frustrating wild-goose-chases. But I know others on this list have different views, and it would be interesting to hear the subjective views or objective evidence behind them. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, Blaxland NSW Australia E-mail - jonathan@magna.com.au Web - http://www.magna.com.au/~jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I can't make up my mind whether or not to be indecisive. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 23:50:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Allison Brooks Subject: Re: Useless efforts? >>> Does the fact that most people don't understand theology > mean that there should be no priests? > > ;-) > Allison > Indeed, maybe there _should_ be no priests; but the premise does not support the conclusion. A better analogy would be, "Does the fact that most people don't understand Latin mean that Mass should not be celebrated?"<< Well, yes, your analogy is much better, but, IMHO, it lacks punch. Not that I was trying to write something great--I was only making a facetious comment. With my usual lack of sincerity, Allison