Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:47:50 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)ISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu > Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9701A" To: Julius Ariail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 10:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing in Europe Carol Roberts wrote: >My husband and I are *considering* spending a year in >Germany. Naturally, the question of what would happen to my >indexing business arose. If any Canadian or U.S. indexers have >taken a "sabbatical" in Europe, I'd appreciate hearing how that >affected your business. Were you able to get your clients to >send page proofs to Europe? Did you offer to eat the extra >shipping cost? Did it take significantly longer to >send/receive shipments? >Did you lose clients? Did you pick up new clients in Europe? I also have this problem, although for shorter time intervals. Being that one of my other businesses is archival research- frequently in Latin American or European (usually Spanish) archives, I am required at irregular intervals to spend time abroad. What I do is restrict my fieldwork to 3 or 4 week intervals and do this only two or three times a year. Yes, I have lost new business this way (I have made arrangements to work around this problem with my regular customers by keeping them informed of my schedule). Taking proof sheets with me to do in the evening is in theory possible but I've so far found it neither necessary (being able to do the indexing before or after the trip) or practical (too much to carry). I don't think this is closely relevant to the question but it is perhaps of interest. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 13:09:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Ergonomics: Glidepointer LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > Sonsie, > I can't tell you about humidity, because I dumped the glidepoint after about > 2 days trial. I use a logitech trackball now and love it. I used my finger > for the glidepoint and found I had to hold my arm and hand in one tense > position for too long a period of time. I don't know whether this was due to > humidity or not. I don't think it was particularly humid in San Diego in > August. But my finger didn't seem to glide smoothly and tapping didn't always > work. I had to hit it in just the right way. I found it annoying as well as > uncomfortable. In fact, I tried to unload my glidepoint in August. I still > have it tucked away on a shelf in my office. > Best of luck, > Leslie > LLF Editorial Services > BTW, It's raining and extraordinarily windy here, too.LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > Sonsie, > I can't tell you about humidity, because I dumped the glidepoint after about > 2 days trial. I use a logitech trackball now and love it. I used my finger > for the glidepoint and found I had to hold my arm and hand in one tense > position for too long a period of time. I don't know whether this was due to > humidity or not. I don't think it was particularly humid in San Diego in > August. But my finger didn't seem to glide smoothly and tapping didn't always > work. I had to hit it in just the right way. I found it annoying as well as > uncomfortable. Leslie, >From your discription it almost sounds like you had a defective Glidepoint. To get the feel of using mine, I played one game of the solitaire that comes on Windows 3.1. Our weather has been similar to Hazel's in Florida - in the 70's. We haven't been running our AC or heat when I've used my Glidepoint. Today it is in the 60's, humid and overcast, and I'm having no problem. A very light touch with my index finger works for moving the cursor. I got the hang of tapping by time I finished one card game. Sonsie, one manuver you won't figure out on your own is the "click & drag" equivalent. On the glidepoint you position the cursor and then tap twice, keeping your finger on the pad after the second tap. Then drag to desired location (or to highlight) without lifting your finger. That was the hardest for me to get the hang of. Otherwise, position the pointer and tap for a single click, of tap twice for a double click. For picky stuff like positioning the cursor in text, try just rolling the tip of your finger slightly rather than sliding. I think the bottom line is that different people will find different devices work best for them. That is why there are so many choices out there. I like my ballpoint too, but my thumb does get cranky sometimes. I think I might keep using it some, especially when needing greater accuracy as in text editing, although I'm getting pretty good with the glidepoint. Maybe I'll want to switch between them just to give my hand a change once in a while when I'm working long hours. I absolutely hate a standard mouse- made my whole arm cranky the little I've used one! -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 20:10:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) Happy New Year to all of you out there; may you have a prosperous and busy indexing year! Carol Roberts' recent question about how indexers who live in Europe deal with working with U.S. publishers is an intersting one for me, too. However, I would like to hear from anyone who lives ANYWHERE outside the U.S. and works for U.S. publishers: 1. How do you deal with FedEx charges? (Who pays, in other words?) 2. Do you finish the book in less time than you might if you lived in the U.S. (i.e., taking into consideration 4-day delivery times--or more-- instead of 2-day each way?). 3. What do you do if you need to check a name or other inconsistencies in the text? Do you have access to the reference material that you need for checking these inconsistencies, which--believe me--crop up ALL the time? 4. What other problems do you face with this sort of situation? (I.e., things we might not even think of because we are used to the relatively smooth operation of FedEx and electricity here!) 5. Do you subscribe to U.S. publishing periodicals (i.e, Publishers Weekly, Library Journal, New York Review of Books, etc.?) to keep up with trends (and markets) in U.S. publishing? 6. Do you find local publishers in your country who use freelance indexers? 7. How do you maintain contact with U.S. publishers? Do you rely mostly on email? And finally, a "chat" question about cats for all indexers (especially those who speak French!!!): I have just recently adopted two cats from the local Humane Society. So far, I have not been able to give thenm access to my office area in the house while I am working because they love to type and do other indexing jobs that do nothing to further my work load. How do people with cats give them access to the indexing process--or do you? I guess I concentrate so hard that anything disrupts that concentration. They are wonderful cats and I would like them to "work" with me. Any suggestions welcome. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 20:07:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Chat about Cat Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > > Happy New Year to all of you out there; may you have a prosperous and busy > indexing year! > > Carol Roberts' recent question about how indexers who live in Europe deal > with working with U.S. publishers is an intersting one for me, too. > However, I would like to hear from anyone who lives ANYWHERE outside the > U.S. and works for U.S. publishers: > > 1. How do you deal with FedEx charges? (Who pays, in other words?) > > 2. Do you finish the book in less time than you might if you lived in the > U.S. (i.e., taking into consideration 4-day delivery times--or more-- > instead of 2-day each way?). > > 3. What do you do if you need to check a name or other inconsistencies in > the text? Do you have access to the reference material that you need for > checking these inconsistencies, which--believe me--crop up ALL the time? > > 4. What other problems do you face with this sort of situation? (I.e., > things we might not even think of because we are used to the relatively > smooth operation of FedEx and electricity here!) > > 5. Do you subscribe to U.S. publishing periodicals (i.e, Publishers Weekly, > Library Journal, New York Review of Books, etc.?) to keep up with trends > (and markets) in U.S. publishing? > > 6. Do you find local publishers in your country who use freelance indexers? > > 7. How do you maintain contact with U.S. publishers? Do you rely mostly on > email? > > And finally, a "chat" question about cats for all indexers (especially those > who speak French!!!): > > I have just recently adopted two cats from the local Humane Society. So > far, I have not been able to give thenm access to my office area in the > house while I am working because they love to type and do other indexing > jobs that do nothing to further my work load. How do people with cats give > them access to the indexing process--or do you? I guess I concentrate so > hard that anything disrupts that concentration. They are wonderful cats and > I would like them to "work" with me. Any suggestions welcome. > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > *****************************************I, too, was wondering about the quest ion re cats. I've had 2 parakeets in a cage next to my workstation, which is fun when they are healthy. However, I just lost one parakeet over the holidays (sigh) (I'm not quite sure why!) and have one single parakeet left. I'm thinking about eventually getting a cat (after my single parakeet goes) and wondered how other indexersfreelancers handled the issue of cats/keyboards. Should there by a separate category of freelancers/pats? It sounds like there are a number of freelancers out there who have some kind of pet! BTW, as you might have guessed, I did change email addresses, so unsubscribed from the aol address. Thanks to all those who responded to my question on aol. Happy New Year To All! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:15:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Ergonomics: Glidepointer At 01:09 PM 1/1/97 -0800, Ann Truesdale wrote: >one manuver you won't figure out on your own is the "click & drag" >equivalent. On the glidepoint you position the cursor and then tap twice, >keeping your finger on the pad after the second tap. Then drag to desired >location (or to highlight) without lifting >your finger. That was the hardest for me to get the hang of. Otherwise, >position the pointer and tap for a single click, of tap twice for a double >click. For picky stuff >like positioning the cursor in text, try just rolling the tip of your >finger slightly rather than sliding. Ann, thanks for the tips. I've printed this out to use when I've finally gotten brave enough to unhook the mouse and give the glidepoint a reasonable trial. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 18:15:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) At 08:10 PM 1/1/97 -0500, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >I have just recently adopted two cats from the local Humane Society. So >far, I have not been able to give thenm access to my office area in the >house while I am working because they love to type and do other indexing >jobs that do nothing to further my work load. How do people with cats give >them access to the indexing process--or do you? I guess I concentrate so >hard that anything disrupts that concentration. They are wonderful cats and >I would like them to "work" with me. Any suggestions welcome. Cynthia, at the moment I have only one cat, and she's allowed free run of my office. However, she has displayed no interest in my computer or keyboard...thank goodness! OTOH, she does love to lounge on my large desk, directly under the suspended worklights (which I believe act like giant "cat warmers"). She knows the rule: one move to tear paper and she's banished outdoors! I only have to kick her out once in a very great while, and it's generally because I have ignored her far too long. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 23:20:48 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alexandre Popovkin Subject: Indexers overseas In reply to Cynthia Berthelson's list of queries for indexers overseas working for US publishers, here's my situation: I have been working for a NY publisher for the past five years from my farm in Brazil. They send me manuscripts via FedEx and pay the expense themselves. It takes from 2 days to at most 4-5 days for the shipment to arrive here. The package can be traced over Internet by both the sender and the recipient, FedEx has a Web page for that purpose. With the arrival of e-mail some two years ago, for both, the publisher and myself, most of the correspondence is done using it. In emergency situations, a phone call may be called for. Quite expensive from Brazil! I send my work to the publisher using either FTP or e-mail, with no problems. Usually a few days ahead of deadlines, to be on the safe side. Reference materials for name checks, etc. are available over the Internet. I also subscribe to the electronic version of Encyclopedia Britannica. My Internet access provider is in Salvador, some 100 miles from the farm. I spend a week every month there doing Web browsing and other research. For $39 I have an unlimited access; more expensive than in the States but definitely worth it. I do most of my work on the farm. However, since it still has no phone line, I have to go to the nearest town (about 10 miles) to check my e-mail (once a week) and send work to the States. Looking forward to an access to the Internet via satellites in a year or so. It's already available in the States (DirecPC). The biggest problem is to convince US publishers that in this day and age indexers' offices can virtually be anyplace in this world. Will be happy to answer any further questions. []Alex Popovkin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Alexandre Popovkin C.P. 24250 avp@magiclink.com.br 40022-970 Salvador BA Bahia/Brazil/S.America B R A S I L ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:27:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: overseas and CHAT cats In-Reply-To: <199701020103.UAA01040@maildeliver0.tiac.net> Does working from Martha's Vineyard Island count as "overseas"? My 8 cats are all indexers except one who doesn't like to do anything. They all know quite certainly that the keyboard is just for Rachel, and you should see them turn themselves inside out to avoid walking on it. I taught them the keyboard is for me by imitating their own sounds that they use when they don't want someone to do something. Sometimes they accidently on purpose write a little note to someone. I always save work by absolute habit whenever I leave the keyboard, or even turn away for a sec, and I put the cursor off the file, as they are not so careful when I'm not around. They have been know to dial up the internet, and to shut down the computer, and to turn on the printer. To what ends I have not been able to figure. The biggest problem is hair in the CPU, so I always leave a disk in the slot (not pushed in all the way), and I keep an upturned basket on the monitor so they can't lie on it for its lovely heat. Whatever you do, don't vacuum near your CPU. I speak from experience. I vacuumed near it, not even on it, and there was a big spark, and this led to Tragical Hardrive Failure of late 1995. Which took with it a nearly finished job and one of my lessons from the USDA course, which is the single reason why I never finished the course, and why I now own a Zip drive. Instead I take the CPU to be cleaned a couple of times a year. They say HI: Emma Peel, Yoda, Alex Trebek (no relation), Big Boy, Little (I'm a girl) Bob, George of the Jungle, Maggie (I don't like to work) O'Connell, and Little Boy RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:18 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Indexing in Europe In-Reply-To: <852060885.910418.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> Carol You say: >My husband and I are *considering* spending a year in Germany. Naturally, >the question of what would happen to my indexing business arose. If any >Canadian or U.S. indexers have taken a "sabbatical" in Europe, I'd >appreciate hearing how that affected your business. Were you able to get >your clients to send page proofs to Europe? Did you offer to eat the extra >shipping cost? Did it take significantly longer to send/receive shipments? >Did you lose clients? Did you pick up new clients in Europe? > >I would also appreciate hearing from indexers in Europe who have North >American clients. While I can't help you on relations with North American publishers, I do live in Europe, whatever some of our politicos may say. There are, as you will know, plenty of publishers in all European countries, including both Germany and the UK. Also, a number of Dutch firms publish books in English. You could always try extending you business by contacting some of those who work in the subject area(s) you prefer. Any large library is likely to have a directory with names and addresses and subject areas covered. The Society of Indexers in the UK has been wanting to make contacts on the Continent, but has not yet made very much progress. YOU might even be able to help everyone to get in touch better. Now there is an idea worth thinking about! Yours, Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:00:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) I am a new subscriber and am looking into starting an indexing side-business but I can address Cynthia's cat question. I have two cats and one of them comes running every time I turn on my computer, run the sewing machine or stay too long in my work room doing crafts. He's my 'handy helper'. I have found that persistance works. You will have to spend a few minutes pushing the cat away each time but it's nice to have the company. I even went so far as to give him his own chair so I don't feel guilty pushing him off my lap. Enjoy your new friends! Janice Grosshans jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 08:14:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Mouse vs. glidepoint. Was: Re: Ergonomics: Glidepointer In-Reply-To: <199701011840.KAA27455@mx2.u.washington.edu> I concur with Ann's statement below. I detest trackballs; find them almost impossible to control. I have a Glidepoint on my notebook computer as an alternative to the built-in eraserhead pointer (more space-friendly in tight quarters like an airline dropdown tray than a regular mouse), but also develop severe hand cramps from the glidepoint if using it for long periods of mouse-intensive activities like computer card games. For me the Microsoft Mouse (with the right thumb indention) is the best pointer I've ever found. (Might feel differently if I were left-handed!) However, other electronic rodents (like the cheapie that came with my new computer at work) haven't survived more than 4 hours before they got replaced; but one of the people who works for me loves the cheap one and can't use the MS Mouse. Mice are very individualized, and it's IMPERATIVE to make sure the one you are using fits your hand and work style. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Ann Truesdale wrote: > LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I think the bottom line is that different people will find different devices > work best > for them. That is why there are so many choices out there. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:47:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) I have three cats, one of whom is in permanent residence in my office. She is older (12 years) and pretty sedate, so I don't have trouble with her playing with things, but I do have to contend with: - Cat hair over *everything*, especially my guest chair, which she has appropriated for her bed. I keep covers over the printers and copier when not in use. I keep one of those aerosol cans of compressed air nearby and periodically blow the keyboard clear. - Bids for attention when I am busy. She parks her furry butt on my mouse pad and won't budge until she's been sufficiently petted. And you know how hard it is to pet a cat *enough.* - The consequences of her aging and sensitive digestive system. (Good taste prevents further details.) Another reason to keep sensitive equipment covered, but I can't cover everything and have had papers and books damaged by "accidents." I have also taken in "foster cats", strays referred from a local animal rescue group. These were only temporary residents, but two of them were kittens and needed more attention than the older ones. I got used to typing with one hand with a sleeping kitten cradled in the other arm. Dick Evans Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:22:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) I realize this is getting really off topic, but I feel compelled to put in a good word about dogs. I will try to tie it in to some sort of indexing at the end.:D I have the most wonderful Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Whimsey (named after Lord Peter Wimsey for you detective fiction fans). She does not jump on my keyboard (or any other computer equipment). She lies at my feet, keeping me company while I work. She does shed, but she is considerate enough not to get hair on my equipment. And, when I want to take a break and get some exercise, she is kind enough to take me on walks or out to play ball. She's a great soccer player, pushing the kicked soccer ball in a circle and bringing it back to me. She is also willing to play the standard retrieve games with me. In my case, it's the 3-year-old who hits the keyboard, adds new and interesting material to my work (and play), changes the settings on the printer and monitor, and opens and closes various programs. He doesn't shed though, so that's something I don't have to worry about. Now, are you prepared for the indexing/overseas tie-in? As a corgi fan, I purchased the "authority book" on the Pembroke, published in England. I was appalled to find that although this "authority" contains about 300 pages of information on the breed, including its history, functions, physical standards, etc., there was no index! Therefore, I have taken it upon myself to mail the authors suggesting that they include an index in the next edition. Of course, my services will be available should they choose to go in that direction:D Have any of you picked up work by doing similar things? This is not the only book that needs an index. I have a few other books that I love and use and that have very poor indexes and I would like to write to the authors and suggest that improvements could be made. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:01:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: special characters Good morning all. Hope you had a pleasant holiday season and are really ready to go back to work. Now, could those of you indexing software manuals give me a hand here. How do you feel about double posting special characters (under both special characters grouping and alphabetically under name of character), ie., Special Characters * (asterisk), 222 "" (quotation marks), 233 A asterisk (*), 222 Q quotation marks (""), 233 This seems to me to be a waste of space. If someone is looking for a special character, isn't the beginning the most likely place they'll look? Opinions please. Thanks Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: Martin_Ahermaa@tvo.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martin Ahermaa Organization: TVOntario's Online System Subject: Re: 11th Day of Christmas Umm is this guy tenured!?? ;-]]]] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 17:10:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: freelancers & pets Given the recent thread on cats, I thought y'all would be sad to learn that I lost one of two parakeets during the Christmas holidays. I'm not quite sure why it happened, since things seemed fine when I went away on the Dec. 24th. At least I have one parakeet who is intently looking at me as I sit sit at my workstation. I was wondering if we should start a sig called freelancers with pets? Happy New Year. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 21:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: CHAT about bad indexes, cats In-Reply-To: <199701030104.UAA06320@maildeliver0.tiac.net> I looked up "optic neuritis" in my old ophthalmology text, and it gave a page ref to page 265. There was no mention of optic neurtitis there. And the main article about it wasn't indexed at all. I thought of writing to that publisher as well and offering my services. I'd also be interested to know if that's worked for anyone. Didn't we talk about it recently? And about dogs, my cat Alex Trebek is as good as a dog, and just as annoying. He pokes and pokes me for attention. He goes for walks with me, likes to ride in the car, can go to strange locations and still stays around, always comes when called, immediately, at a run, sleeps on my bed, growls at strange animals, and fawns all over company. Meets my car down the driveway and jumps in for the rest of the way to the house. I'll take him over a dog any day. No offense to dogs, but Alex is just great. And he even qualifies for the Lassie Come Home award as he got kidnapped last year and taken to Rochester, NY, but he made it home (long story). And he makes a nice large paper weight on manuscripts, his favorite spot. Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:32:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: special characters At 03:01 PM 1/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >Good morning all. Hope you had a pleasant holiday season and are really ready >to go back to work. Now, could those of you indexing software manuals give me >a hand here. How do you feel about double posting special characters (under >both special characters grouping and alphabetically under name of character), >snip >This seems to me to be a waste of space. If someone is looking for a special >character, isn't the beginning the most likely place they'll look? I routinely double post them. I know some readers expect them at the beginning but I know of no basis for assuming that the beginning is *the* preferred location. Anyone who who has evidence to the contrary please feel free to correct me. As for wasting space, maybe I am out of step but I've done a couple of hundred computer books for a number of clients and space has never been an issue. I've actually been kind of surprised to hear that others have found it so. Not that I advocate using space unnecessarily, just that no client has ever asked me to economize. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:25:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) At 02:22 PM 1/2/97 -0500, LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: >This is not the only book that needs an index. I have a few other books >that I love and use and that have very poor indexes and I would like to >write to the authors and suggest that improvements could be made. Leslie, I haven't actually =gotten= any work that way, but I'm trying to do so. I happened to pick up the second edition of the big AOL guide, and discovered that the index is pretty terrible. (I bet, knowing that the author is a computer geek, he probably used the built-in "indexing:" feature on his WP software.) And I have a couple of books that, like you, I really love and use a lot that have poor indexes. I think, handled gently, this is a great way to promote a little new business. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 02:37:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: special characters I routinely double post the special characters both at the beginning of the index and under the spelled-out version because I have no way of knowing how each person reading the book might want to look them up. I would guess that most people would look at the beginning of the index, but for those people who would look for the spelled-out version first I want to make sure that they can find what they are looking for. And while space can be an issue in the books I do (I have to hit an exact page count so the book will be on signature), it's more often the case that they want the index long rather than short. Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 06:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Cat's curiosity: recent job offers Happy New Year to everyone, The thread on cats and other pets (I like 'em all, but "just say no" to exotic pets!), piqued my feline curiosity. Within the past few months several job offers were posted (the book on population growth and the Columbia Journalism Review come to mind), did anyone on the list have a go at any of the offers? What were the results? Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:01:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: IRS & deductions Hello, everyone, Was quite annoyed to receive my tax forms on Dec. 31st! That makes me wonder how established freelancers who work from home handle deductions for computers, software purchased, etc. I understand the IRS has strict rules for using business computers at home (keeping a log of "all" use?). Has anyone had any trouble with them? And if you purchase indexing software, is this something that can be deducted immediately as a business expense or does it have to be depreciated? Thanks. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:38:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chat about Cat In a message dated 97-01-01 20:54:44 EST, Willa wrote: > I'm thinking about > eventually getting a cat (after my single parakeet goes) and wondered > how other indexersfreelancers handled the issue of cats/keyboards. Willa, We have a monstrously furry Persian who lives only to eat and generate more fur balls. So, even though we allow her into the office, we only allow her into our laps when we wheel our chairs away from the keyboards to keep them from becoming clogged up with cat hair. She usually comes in and demands to be picked up between 3 to 6am, providing a nice tactile interlude on all-nighters. However, I do cringe when she stands by my chair and her bushy tail brushes right up against the tower unit with its front air intake vents and drive doors. Thus, every so often, my husband opens up both of the computers and cleans them out, much more frequently than if only dust were a consideration. Fortunately, she doesn't jump onto the chairs in front of the computer desks and that's because her legs are too short (she never jumps on the kitchen counters or table either). Unfortunately, because of her long, thick fur, she tends to spew hair balls and other dietary indiscretions (she eats cellophane, for crying out loud), including in my office. We're talking major interruption to the work flow here. The key to surviving with computers and cats, IMHO, is to get a short-haired cat (not a Persian like mine) with legs too short to prevent unauthorized excursions onto the keyboard tray and desktop. BTW, I swear this is true. Every time my husband picks her up when he's at the 486 which has a lower mouse tray than the desk the Pentium is on, she tries to go after the mouse! ;-D >Should there by a separate category of freelancers/pats? Why pats would be a fascinating chat category! Now, are we talking about patting our cats or our spouses? Or which do we prefer to pat? ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs & Cats Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: overseas and CHAT cats In a message dated 97-01-02 12:18:01 EST, Rachel wrote: > Whatever you do, don't > vacuum near your CPU. I speak from experience. I vacuumed near it, not even > on it, and there was a big spark, and this led to Tragical Hardrive Failure > of late 1995. Which took with it a nearly finished job and one of my > lessons from the USDA course, which is the single reason why I never > finished the course, and why I now own a Zip drive. Instead I take the CPU > to be cleaned a couple of times a year. Fortunately, my office has a ceramic tile floor that can be swept instead of vacuumed (and it's great for being able to scoot rapidly around the office without having to get up from the chair). Plus there's no worrry about static charge buildup from walking around the room here where we often have humidity down in the teens or lower as you do with carpeting. (I'm in Southern California.) However, when my office was carpeted, we always turned off the computers before vacuuming. Plus, both computers are plugged into spike suppressors to smooth out the surges caused when turning on a vacuum. (Even so, I tell everyone in the house to warn me before vacuuming anywhere in the house because I hate hearing my UPS beep.) For cleaning the inside of the computers and printer, we have a Data-Vac, which is a vacuum cleaner made specifically for cleaning the inside of electronic equipment. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:38:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) In a message dated 97-01-01 20:04:26 EST, Cynthia wrote: > 4. What other problems do you face with this sort of situation? (I.e., > things we might not even think of because we are used to the relatively > smooth operation of FedEx and electricity here!) > Cynthia, Electricity is a biggie if you take made-for-the-U.S. equipment of any kind over to Europe. Though I didn't run an indexing business while I lived in Italy, using electrical appliances, including computers, was always an ...ahem... adventure. First of all, in Europe, you have 220v at 50Hz at the wall outlets, not the 120v at 60Hz we have here in the U.S. So, if you want to use most American equipment over there without having another power supply and/or a special input transformer installed, you have to plug your equipment into an external transformer (that steps the voltage down to 120volts) which you then plug into the wall outlet. (On some equipment, you can flip a switch to change it to 220v operation, BTW.) These transformers are huge and heavy and must be bought with the power dissipation of the equipment to be attached to them in mind. (They're rated in volt-amps, not watts.) This was such a big pain that while living there, we bought all European-made appliances and stored most of our American appliances in a storage cubby under the stairs (where we forgot them all when we moved back to the States!), saving the monster transformers for only a few things. Plus, transformers do not convert the frequency from 50 to 60Hz and I personally don't know of anything you can buy for use outside of a well-equipped electronics lab that will. Now, some things don't care if the power line frequency is 50 Hz (check the plate on the back of the equipment and if it says 50/60 Hz, you're OK in that department). However, equipment containing motors will run slower at 50Hz and some 60Hz motors will actually burn out at 50Hz. Some electric clocks, those that get their timing from the mains frequency, will lose time at 50Hz, making them quite useless. Another consideration, though not as serious as the difference in voltage and frequency is that European wall outlets are different. So, if you have an American plug, you're going to have to buy adapters, which exist but aren't all that easy to find (at least not going from American-European). I don't know about Germany where Carol is thinking of going, but even within Italy, there were oodles of different plug and wall outlet configurations (even within the same house!!!!), so we even ended up buying tons of adapters just for use with Italian appliances/equipment. Another interesting situation in Italy was that you had to be careful about how you pulled plugs out of the outlets because the entire outlet would have a disconcerting tendency to come out of the wall if you weren't. Oh, and if anyone wants to do something with the household wiring, the color codes are totally different from ours for hot, common, and ground (earth in Europe). American-made TVs will not work in Europe (except for a black-and-white picture and no sound) because we use the NTSC (never-twice-the-same-color) standard here whereas some European countries, such as Italy, use the superior PAL standard and France, I think, uses the SECAM standard. Ditto for VCRs unless you shell out the bucks for a multi-standard one. None use the NTSC standard because the Europeans were wise enough to let us Americans go first when it came to devising a color standard, then developed a better system. ;-D Lastly, I don't know if this is the case in Germany, but at least some Italian houses are fitted with a device that will automatically shut off all power to the house in an electrical storm if a sufficient static charge builds up in the air preceding a nearby lightening strike. This means that you can guarantee that the power will go out in at least 50% of lightning storms. So, an UPS for computer equipment is strongly recommended, if only for this reason (aside from all the others we've discussed here on the list). Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:43:20 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: IRS & deductions ------------437C2AF847210 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sam Andrusko wrote: > ... I understand the IRS has strict rules for using business computers at home (keeping a log of "all" use?). Has anyone had any trouble with them? And if you purchase indexing software, is this something that can be deducted immediately as a business expense or does it have to be depreciated? Sam, The biggest problems are for people who don't run their primary business out of their home. I have four computers, all in my office that is my primary place of business. Their fundamental use is for business. Software is easy, especially if it is used for business. Anyone running a schedule C business can deduct up to $17,500 a year in section 179 capital expenses for operating their business. Just consider this an immediate and full depreciation. You cannot, however, use a 179 deduction to post a loss and a 179 deduction must be taken in the year it was bought (even if you finance it). Any excess, beyond the amount to bring your income to zero is rolled over to future years. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ------------437C2AF847210 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sam Andrusko wrote:
> ... I understand the IRS has strict rules for using business computers at home (keeping a log of "all" use?). Has anyone had any trouble with them? And if you purchase indexing software, is this something that can be deducted immediately as a business expense or does it have to be depreciated?
Sam,
 
The biggest problems are for people who don't run their primary business out of their home. I have four computers, all in my office that is my primary place of business. Their fundamental use is for business.
 
Software is easy, especially if it is used for business. Anyone running a schedule C business can deduct up to $17,500 a year in section 179 capital expenses for operating their business. Just consider this an immediate and full depreciation. You cannot, however, use a 179 deduction to post a loss and a 179 deduction must be taken in the year it was bought (even if you finance it). Any excess, beyond the amount to bring your income to zero is rolled over to future years. 
-- 
William Meisheid  "Thoughts still and always in progress"
Certified RoboHELP Training
WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve
Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com
wgm@sageline.com  410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456
 
------------437C2AF847210-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:53:40 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Chat about Cat Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-01 20:54:44 EST, Willa wrote: > > > I'm thinking about > > eventually getting a cat (after my single parakeet goes) and wondered > > how other indexersfreelancers handled the issue of cats/keyboards. > > Willa, > > We have a monstrously furry Persian who lives only to eat and generate more > fur balls. So, even though we allow her into the office, we only allow her > into our laps when we wheel our chairs away from the keyboards to keep them > from becoming clogged up with cat hair. She usually comes in and demands to > be picked up between 3 to 6am, providing a nice tactile interlude on > all-nighters. However, I do cringe when she stands by my chair and her bushy > tail brushes right up against the tower unit with its front air intake vents > and drive doors. Thus, every so often, my husband opens up both of the > computers and cleans them out, much more frequently than if only dust were a > consideration. Fortunately, she doesn't jump onto the chairs in front of the > computer desks and that's because her legs are too short (she never jumps on > the kitchen counters or table either). Unfortunately, because of her long, > thick fur, she tends to spew hair balls and other dietary indiscretions (she > eats cellophane, for crying out loud), including in my office. We're talking > major interruption to the work flow here. The key to surviving with computers > and cats, IMHO, is to get a short-haired cat (not a Persian like mine) with > legs too short to prevent unauthorized excursions onto the keyboard tray and > desktop. > > BTW, I swear this is true. Every time my husband picks her up when he's at > the 486 which has a lower mouse tray than the desk the Pentium is on, she > tries to go after the mouse! ;-D > > >Should there by a separate category of freelancers/pats? > > Why pats would be a fascinating chat category! Now, are we talking about > patting our cats or our spouses? Or which do we prefer to pat? ;-D > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs & Cats > Technical and Scientific IndexingWoops--I think I meant freelancers/pets but f reelancers/pats is an interesting concept as well--since we probably could all enjoy a pat or a hug at some point during the day! I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. Every response has made me smile :) Should someone consider writing a book on the influence of pets in a freelancer's life? Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service macallen@tiac.net MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 07:56:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Chat about Cat Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-01 20:54:44 EST, Willa wrote: > > > I'm thinking about > > eventually getting a cat (after my single parakeet goes) and wondered > > how other indexersfreelancers handled the issue of cats/keyboards. > > Willa, > > We have a monstrously furry Persian who lives only to eat and generate more > fur balls. So, even though we allow her into the office, we only allow her > into our laps when we wheel our chairs away from the keyboards to keep them > from becoming clogged up with cat hair. She usually comes in and demands to > be picked up between 3 to 6am, providing a nice tactile interlude on > all-nighters. However, I do cringe when she stands by my chair and her bushy > tail brushes right up against the tower unit with its front air intake vents > and drive doors. Thus, every so often, my husband opens up both of the > computers and cleans them out, much more frequently than if only dust were a > consideration. Fortunately, she doesn't jump onto the chairs in front of the > computer desks and that's because her legs are too short (she never jumps on > the kitchen counters or table either). Unfortunately, because of her long, > thick fur, she tends to spew hair balls and other dietary indiscretions (she > eats cellophane, for crying out loud), including in my office. We're talking > major interruption to the work flow here. The key to surviving with computers > and cats, IMHO, is to get a short-haired cat (not a Persian like mine) with > legs too short to prevent unauthorized excursions onto the keyboard tray and > desktop. > > BTW, I swear this is true. Every time my husband picks her up when he's at > the 486 which has a lower mouse tray than the desk the Pentium is on, she > tries to go after the mouse! ;-D > > >Should there by a separate category of freelancers/pats? > > Why pats would be a fascinating chat category! Now, are we talking about > patting our cats or our spouses? Or which do we prefer to pat? ;-D > > Lynn Moncrief > TECHindex & Docs & Cats > Technical and Scientific IndexingWoops--I meant freelancers/pets ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:17:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cat's curiosity: recent job offers In a message dated 97-01-03 07:02:46 EST, you write: << Within the past few months several job offers were posted (the book on population growth and the Columbia Journalism Review come to mind), did anyone on the list have a go at any of the offers? What were the results? >> Sam: I responded to the Columbia Journalism Review request, but heard nothing back from them. Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:33:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: IRS & deductions In a message dated 97-01-03 07:54:01 EST, William Meisheid wrote: << Software is easy, especially if it is used for business. Anyone running a schedule C business can deduct up to $17,500 a year in section 179 capital expenses for operating their business. >> I am by no means a tax expert, but I do my own (with the help of TurboTax.) My understanding of software purchases is that it they do need to be depreciated. The Section 179 deduction can only be used for tangible property, and software is considered to be intangible property. (I just double-checked this in last year's publication 946 "How to Depreciate Property.") William is right that you can't take the Section 179 deduction if you have a loss for the year. I bought my computer in 1994 and formally started my indexing business that year, but had no income. I had to start depreciating my computer and furniture then instead of taking the Section 179 deduction. Thank goodness for tax software. As for partial business use of computers, I kept a log for a few months in 1995, and used two or three months as 'typical' to determine an average percentage of business use. I didn't do that in 96, but I have my records of time spent on each indexing job and feel that I could reconstruct a log with enough documentation, giving generous estimates of personal time on the computer. My attitude is that if the IRS ever audited me, the fact that I didn't try to depreciate the entire cost of the computer would count in my favor. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:06:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: IRS & deductions At 07:01 AM 1/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, everyone, > Was quite annoyed to receive my tax forms on Dec. 31st! That makes me >wonder how established freelancers who work from home handle deductions >for computers, software purchased, etc. I understand the IRS has strict >rules for using business computers at home (keeping a log of "all" use?). >Has anyone had any trouble with them? And if you purchase indexing >software, is this something that can be deducted immediately as a business >expense or does it have to be depreciated? > I deduct everything in the year purchased and keep no special logs of use. I also deduct for my office floor space, a portion of utilitites, the loan payment for the separate heat/AC unit, the new reading glasses I just bought for working at the monitor, a good portion of my auto mileage (I do keep logs on that). Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) At 08:25 PM 1/2/97 -0800, you wrote: >I happened to pick up the second edition of the big AOL guide, and >discovered that the index is pretty terrible. Which edition is that? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:08:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: IRS & deductions All, Ditto Dick's deductions, plus premium for additional insurance on computer equipment and reference books in home office (no liability ins, but additional property ins), improvements to office are written off (additional a/c vent, shade screens, built-in bookcases, etc), and yes, I do keep a strict log of mileage on a calendar. Don't forget professional memberships and all publications specifically purchased for business reasons, including the computer mags I'd never get if not for my business use of the computer. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:11:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: special characters In a message dated 97-01-02 22:37:08 EST, you write: > As for wasting space, maybe I am out of step but I've done a couple of > hundred computer books for a number of clients and space has never been an > issue. I've actually been kind of surprised to hear that others have found > it so. Not that I advocate using space unnecessarily, just that no client > has ever asked me to economize. > I routinely get asked to fit the index for computer manuals within a specific number of pages, and have to squeeze all the time. I would love to trade off and have absolutely free room sometime! Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:49:41 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: special characters ------------67F639376FB16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii JanCW@aol.com wrote: > I routinely get asked to fit the index for computer manuals within a specific number of pages, and have to squeeze all the time. I would love to trade off and have absolutely free room sometime! Microsoft seems to better than most at giving space to indexes. They also use a smaller font to increase the coverage. My "Windows 95 Help Authoring Kit" has 26 pages of index (2 column) for 301 pages of text. Thats a one column for about every six pages of material which appears to be above average. The economics of this is interesting since the cost in a large print run (5000+) is less than .5 cents a page added to the books printing cost, so you can directly calculate the value to the publisher of the index. I guess some people see the index as a necessary evil, to be held to the absolute minimum, yet when they try to find something in a book the first place they go and the first thing they complain about is the index. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ------------67F639376FB16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
JanCW@aol.com wrote:
> I routinely get asked to fit the index for computer manuals within a specific number of pages, and have to squeeze all the time. I would love to trade off and have absolutely free room sometime!

Microsoft seems to better than most at giving space to indexes. They also use a smaller font to increase the coverage. My "Windows 95 Help Authoring Kit" has 26 pages of index (2 column) for 301 pages of text. Thats a one column for about every six pages of material which appears to be above average. 
 
The economics of this is interesting since the cost in a large print run (5000+) is less than .5 cents a page added to the books printing cost, so you can directly calculate the value to the publisher of the index.
 
I guess some people see the index as a necessary evil, to be held to the absolute minimum, yet when they try to find something in a book the first place they go and the first thing they complain about is the index.

-- 
William Meisheid  "Thoughts still and always in progress"
Certified RoboHELP Training
WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve
Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com
wgm@sageline.com  410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456
 
------------67F639376FB16-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:57:16 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Indexers and Their Pets I had been tossing around an idea for the Winston-Salem meeting that this thread makes clear we need: I was going to suggest to Alexandra that we designate one wall in the hospitality room for a photo montage of indexers with their pets. I thought this might a good way for new indexers to get talking, to break the ice, that sort of thing. So, let's officially say that we will do this and I will make arrangements with Alexandra for a space in the conference area for us to display snapshots of our pets. Okay? Bring a photo of your pets (you don't need to be in the photo, but it would be nice), put your name on the back, and we will get a bulletin board or a blank wall and bring tape. (I proudly lay claim to feeding three cats and a dog, who all tolerate my work between feedings and playing with them. I couldn't truthfully say I "own" them because they so clearly rule me!) Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: special characters/tax question. Thank you all for your responses about special characters. The truth is, this is the first time in all my indexing experience (all those hundreds of years, wait, no, I meant all those 6 years:D) that I have been asked to keep an index on the short side. So, of course, I am looking for little ways to cut. As for the IRS, although I was a business major in college, I absolutely refuse to do my own taxes. My husband and I have too many odd deductions. Guided by my "tax man," I deduct office space; office equipment; a percentage of utilities, house and yard care and maintenance (including security system); professional periodicals and memberships; mileage; marketing costs; mailing costs; and I can't think of anything else off the top of my head. I understand you may also deduct a percentage of house cleaning costs if you have your house cleaned professionally and are in a home office (as I am). Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:35:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: IRS & deductions At 07:43 AM 1/3/97 -0500, William Meisheid wrote: >Software is easy, especially if it is used for business. Anyone running >a schedule C business can deduct up to $17,500 a year in section 179 >capital expenses for operating their business. Just consider this an >immediate and full depreciation. William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if you're going strictly by the IRS rules. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:05:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexers overseas (Plus "chat" question about cats) At 11:27 AM 1/3/97 -0500, Richard T. Evans wrote: >>I happened to pick up the second edition of the big AOL guide, and >>discovered that the index is pretty terrible. > >Which edition is that? _The Official American Online for Windows Tour Guide_, Tom Lichty, second edition (AOL 2.5). The main problem I have with this index is that it uses strictly AOL terminology (in other words, I'm convinced it was indexed mechanically rather than intuitively). If you don't know what a buddy list is, you'll never figure out from the index how to access friends who are online when you are. If you don't already know what a flash session in, you probably won't find this vital information without reading through the entire e-mail section, because there is no cross-reference any other "normal English" term. A friend gave me this book when I was absolutely an AOL newbie, and I had a terrible time finding information I needed because I didn't know the correct AOL terminology to look it up. However, it's become more useful to me as I've figured out the right words. Still, since this sort of reference is used heavily by folks who haven't a clue about AOL (and maybe even computers), it would behoove an indexer to make generous use of "see" and "see also" and lots and lots of real-life cross-references. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:24:33 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: tax question. I have been told by my tax guy that I can deduct child care costs (if I am using child care so that I can work). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:24:58 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: IRS & deductions ------------263573A69FF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sonsie wrote > William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if you're going strictly by the IRS rules. Sonsie, Shows how much tax people disagree. I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed and as far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property", which was originally designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade. As to the less than $50-100 stuff that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd. I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. I can't wait until they do away with the IRS. -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ------------263573A69FF1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Sonsie wrote
> William, my tax preparer (and other EAs) have told me that software is an oddball exception to the Section 179 rule. It =must= be depreciated over its useful life, which can be anywhere from 3 to 5 years. I think you could probably 179 a $15 program, but Macrex or Cindex must be depreciated if  you're going strictly by the IRS rules.

Sonsie,
 
Shows how much tax people disagree. I have been repeatedly told just the opposite for shrinkwrapped software - anything not custom programmed and as far as I know that has never been challenged since it is no different than a book to its user, even if it is "intangleble property", which was originally designed for the code a company owned and developed, not the off-the-shelf day-to-day tools of a person's trade.
 
As to the less than $50-100 stuff that is all expensed anyway, not 179'd.
 
I have very little software that lasts 2 years, much less three, before an update makes its way onto my system. I can't wait until they do away with the IRS.

-- 
William Meisheid  "Thoughts still and always in progress"
Certified RoboHELP Training
WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve
Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com
wgm@sageline.com  410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456
 
------------263573A69FF1-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:02:54 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Chat: Indexers and pets Hi all- My two cats --Barney and Hodge-- are ragtime music fans. I have several ragtime midi files, one of which seems to be their favorite. If the computer is on, they think its ragtime and give me no peace until I play the file. Barney even drapes himself around my shoulders to get my attention. Once it starts playing, he curls up in my lap and purrs loudly (no, not in time to the music). My biggest problem was teaching Barney that the top of the monitor was not a good place to sleep. Both cats occasionally leap onto my desktop and walk across the keyboard. The computer beeps at them which tends to discourage their leaps a bit. If anyone else is interested in testing their pets' musical taste, please contact me offlist and I'll send a copy of the midi file mentioned above. Happy New Year to everyone. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:37:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Chat: Indexers and pets In-Reply-To: <199701032302.SAA28880@polaris.net> My senior cat, Gladys (almost 12) is the only cat allowed in my office. So far, she's been completely uninterested in music. Maybe I should hit her up with some of the New Age-y stuff; of late, that's about the only stuff I can play and still concentrate. I used to listen to the local classical music radio station all day long. But lately, I've had some mind-boggling projects to work on, and I need to work in absolute silence. I turn my phone ringer off. But I am more than willing to have discussions with Gladys. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA Cat new year's resolution: I resolve to display the fastidious self-grooming of my private parts at every social gathering.--Vicki Croke ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:55:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Pets and Computers For those who have expressed concern about pet hair & cats sleeping on computers: there are many 100's of veterinary clinics using computers around the country. The computers do survive *hair* by the tons. In my practice I am still running a 286 bought in 1986 to print prescription labels. I do take off the cases and blow out dust & hair every 6 mos. or so. (I use the compressed air supply from my dental unit). As for cats sleeping on monitors, we have a clinic cat named "Miss Priss" who has spent the last 10 years sleeping on top of the monitor on the reception desk. Two monitors have survived this for about 5 years each. Recently she vomited into the vents on top of the current monitor! The screen went blank and my receptionist immediately turned it off. The next day I decided to switch it on again before I went shopping for a new one, and amazingly it worked fine & is still OK at this point! I do also blow out the keyboards, but clumps of hair will still stay under the keys. This can only be removed by gently prying off the keys with the tip of a letter opener or pencil. I only try this as a last resort when it's either try that or toss the keyboard. Also, it is very important to cover keyboards, etc. when not in use. I found that hair accumulated about twice as fast before I got a keyboard cover for that first computer. Amazing how the stuff floats around in the air during the night. As for how to work with a cat -- the younger ones can be a challenge. There's play time and nap time, and only one is compatible with working. As several list members have pointed out, you can train them with persistence. Also, older cats will be less disruptive and develop a schedule when they want attention, and when they just want to sleep nearby. Only one of my 4 cats has any interest in my computer work. She is quite small and fits nicely into my lap to sleep. We only have a problem if she faces to the right, because she likes to rest her chin over my arm and complains whenever I reach for the mouse-- typing is OK. -- Ann Truesdale "Is she--*drugged*!?" New client upon observing Miss Priss in her usual attitude on top of the reception desk computer monitor and mistakenly thinking she was anesthetised. (My personal theory is that cats don't need an external source of drugs. Their endogenous endorphin levels are so high they are zoned naturally.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 23:32:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: CHAT cats and monitors In-Reply-To: <199701040201.VAA27109@maildeliver0.tiac.net> My cat Little Bob slept on the monitor so eventually I put a basket there for her. Then she started getting very groggy, and then stopped eating and lost about 4 pounds, and she was thin to begin with. She eventually had to be hospitalized and force fed. I would bring her home at night and try to get her to eat, but then she'd go back to the vet for the day for 4 feedings. We could never figure out what was causing it, and eventually (about 6 weeks later) she started eating again and is fine now. I am fairly certain that she she cooked herself on the monitor and somehow it made her anorexic. No one else believes this, but I can't think of any other reason. I have a photo of her on it in her basket. I call the photo Monitor Bob. I'll bring it to the ASI meeting for the board. (Her name is Bob because she has only half a tail. Another long story.) RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 06:03:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Chat: Cats and Computers To all cat-loving indexers: My cats, Duster and Dolly, are brother and sister from the same litter but totally different in character. What they do have in common is that, like all cats, they like to sit somewhere warm, usually on top of the VCR; this does not seem to have done them any harm, but I had to take the VCR round to the shop recently to have the accumulated hair hoovered out, as the machine was failing to eject the tape. They have not (yet) discovered the top of the PC monitor as a source of heat. Dolly shows little interest in technology, but Duster is fascinated by it. He loves watching the fax machine emit streams of paper, is spellbound by the strange noises from the answering machine (and has occasionally tried to leave messages on it by pressing the memo button), but mainly likes to walk across the PC keyboard. When I am using Macrex he has several times pressed the scroll lock key with the result that the index comes out in Greek characters. He probably thinks this is a great joke. Otherwise he attempts to sabotage my work by curling up either on the pile of proofs I am working from, or on the paper tray of my printer when it is printing, which tends to cause the paper to jam. He sighs deeply when dislodged. Both cats regularly let me know when it is feeding time by arriving on my desk together, and staring reproachfully or tapping me with their paws, until I get up from my chair. When they believe themselves to be really starving, their protests become vocal. Their presence can be a nuisance, but I find it generally calming and beneficial. Happy New Year to you all. Christine Shuttleworth London ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:02:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Chat: Cats and Computers & a parrot In-Reply-To: <199701041105.GAA43352@rs8.loc.gov> Only two of my four cats show any interest in computers and even then I think it is because they want attention and so either sit in front of the monitor or stand on the keyboard. Generally, they are content to sit (nope, catnap!) somewhere near me. My parrot however finds the cursor fascinating. When in the living room with the laptop in my lap and him on my knee, he usually attempts to peck at the cursor. I assume he hopes it is a tasty bug treat. (With four cats and a dog, Toby (the parrot) enjoys fleas as treats and I get annoyed/embarrassed during the summer when the first thing he does when he sits on my knee is examine me critically from foot to knee for fleas! He looks so funny, head cocked to one side, eye intently watching for movement and sometimes he lifts up one of his own feet and examines it critically as though he has never seen it before. Needless to say, folks, I do NOT have fleas! But if I comb the cats with a flea comb, I often offer the victims to Toby. Was amazed to discover why Toby loved acorns too--he wanted the grubs some of them contain. So, then stopped giving him green ones and started gathering the older ones which has started to decay, germinate). Smart critters that they are, all of them usually ignore tv, but now and then something catches their attention. My youngest cat (now about 18 months old), a barn cat I rescued as a two month old (dying) kitten, when younger used to intently watch tv at times, usually when a bird or animal was on the screen. I remember once he sat right in front of the screen and his little head moved this way and that following a flying eagle on tv. Toby perks up and gets quite excited at times when he hears or sees birds on a nature program. And sometimes we'll pop in the video of him for his entertainment--he becomes quite animated and excited. Cute! (Oh, and having said earlier that one should not have exotic pets, I confiscated Toby from a friend who got Toby, then got tired of him, got annoyed at his "vocalizing" (a polite way of saying, screeching and screaming) and decided to get rid of him. So, that's how I ended up with Toby. Do not recommend parrots for anyone who cannot spend hours and hours with them; they are extremely social animals and it is really a crime to keep a single bird caged like a living decoration the way many people do--woops, well, don't intend to get up on the soapbox, but ....). Yikes, well, Toby just landed on my shoulder, screaming and demanding his 2nd breakfast, so had better sign off now and tend to Master. Cheers to all! Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:27:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: freelancers & pets I have a piano in the same room with my birds/computer. It has not been played for a long time, so is definitely out of tune. However, when it was played, my parakeets used to chirp away in the background. I used to tell myself that it was because they enjoyed the music! One hopes it was not because they disliked my attempts at playing the piano! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net (Finally rid of AOL--after many frustrating attempts-- thanks to all who contributed to the change in online services. If the whole world were as helpful, what a pleasant place this would be :) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:46:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: mentors (yet again!) I hope this is an appropriate place to ask a question regarding the ASI Conference in May, 1997. Would it be possible to provide some area at the Conference for those of us who are looking for work/mentors? While the "Mentors Wanted" column in the Sep/Oct 1996 issue of KEYWORDS was a wonderful effort (thanks to all those who tried!), it did not work for me. Many professional conferences have a job board for those looking for employees or for freelancers looking for work, but I did not see one at the 1996 Denver Conference. Is a job board (or, in my case) a mentor board a possibility for the May, 1997 Conference? Or is there any other method available to do this? I'd appreciate any thoughts on this question. Thanks again to any who were involved in the "Mentor Wanted" column in the Sep/Oct 1996 issue. I really appreciated your efforts. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net (Thoroughly enjoying all the pet stories being shared.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:45:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Markinch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: DC ASI EVENT Hello Mike: Sorry I can't make the meeting (again). Well be out of the country (again). Hello to Susan L. Doug Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:47:00 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jill B. Edwards" Subject: Re: Chat and cats I guess I am pet deprived with only one cat (my sister has 9 plus two dogs) but my kitty, Fred, doesn't seem to realize that he is a cat -- no role models. He loves to come sit on my lap whenever he hears the computer turned on, though he hates the modem noise, but he is always very careful not to step on the keyboard. He used to sit on top of the monitor of my old computer which was not on a swivel base. When I bought my new computer, he got a surprise the first time he jumped up on the monitor and it moved! He has since learned how to place his weight so that the monitor doesn't move. It is hard to type with him on my lap, and I plan to buy a wider chair so he can curl up beside me. Do they make ergonomic double wide chairs? :D He is a great companion, but he hates music and leaves the room on the rare occasion I turn the stereo on. I am glad to know I'm not the only one whose cat barfs on things. I have learned not to leave books or magazines on the floor... Time for football. Fred enjoys the lap time. Jill Edwards Indexing sometime in the future. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:59:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: Chat: Cats and Computers & a parrot Sam Andrusko wrote: > My parrot however finds the cursor fascinating. When in the living > room with the laptop in my lap and him on my knee, he usually attempts to > peck at the cursor. I assume he hopes it is a tasty bug treat. (With four > cats and a dog, Toby (the parrot) enjoys fleas as treats and I get > annoyed/embarrassed during the summer when the first thing he does when he > sits on my knee is examine me critically from foot to knee for fleas! He > looks so funny, head cocked to one side, eye intently watching for > movement and sometimes he lifts up one of his own feet and examines it > critically as though he has never seen it before. Needless to say, folks, > I do NOT have fleas! Are you sure? ;) > (Oh, and > having said earlier that one should not have exotic pets, I confiscated > Toby from a friend who got Toby, then got tired of him, got annoyed at his > "vocalizing" (a polite way of saying, screeching and screaming) and > decided to get rid of him. So, that's how I ended up with Toby. Do not > recommend parrots for anyone who cannot spend hours and hours with them; > they are extremely social animals and it is really a crime to keep a > single bird caged like a living decoration the way many people do--woops, > well, don't intend to get up on the soapbox, but ....). > I certainly agree with you, Sam, about birds being social animals. That's why I always try to keep at least two parakeets so that they can play with each other when I'm not home (unlike most of the people on the list I'm an in-house indexer so I'm gone 8 or more hours per day to work). Beaker is definitely very social and will come out and sit on my head or on the top of the monitor or walk around on the keyboard while I'm typing e-mail. I'm glad Beaker is so light -- he's not quite able to push any of the keys. Henry is very shy so he stays in his cage most of the time, although I try to get him to come out for exercise sometimes. Until recently I had a third parakeet named Skyler who was one of the tamest birds I've ever had. He would hang upside down from my finger and let me swing him back and forth. His nickname was "Bat Bird". :) Skyler died unexpectedly a few weeks ago though. Never did figure out why, although I suspect a sudden heart attack even though he was rather young (2 years old). Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 19:38:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: New CHAT topic In-Reply-To: <199701042306.SAA18532@maildeliver0.tiac.net> What can you see from your window? Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:16:26 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Chat: window >What can you see from your window? Last week -- lots and lots and lots of snow! Still recovering from digging out! Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: CHAT: View from window On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Rachel Rice wrote: > What can you see from your window? Well, it's dark out now, but if it were light: Some trees with a bit of fall foliage left. Most are bare. Pileated and red-bellied woodpeckers frolicking in the dogwoods outside the windows to my left. Out the window to my right: Bird feeder and birdbath. Goldfinches (still in greenish state), titmice, chickadees, robins, cardinals at the feeder and the birdbath. Woods. A pottery cat, on the border between sort-of lawn and woods, and in front of it, the graves of our three cats who died in 1996. Each grave has a small, pink, marble marker with the cat's name on it. Sky of intense blue (most of the time). Light of extreme intensity. If I stand up and go to the window on the right, I could see deer tracks in the ground. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA You know you're too stressed if the sun is too loud.--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:26:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: New CHAT topicflooding Rachel Rice wrote: > > What can you see from your window? > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Chilmark, Mass. > rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/Hello Rachel: Great topic ! My view isn't that spectacular--since my window looks out on the MBTA Greenline--if I gave the street name, my residence would be obvious to anyone familiar with Boston! On a slightly different topic, I was wondering whether anyone on this list lives in the area of the floods out west? From the recent news clips, it sounds pretty serious--involving the rescue of people (and pets!) Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Service macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 21:36:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Tortora Subject: Re: New CHAT topic Leaves, leaves, everywhere leaves, and not a rake in sight! Sue Tortora ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Designing Home Pages Greetings: I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and have several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the following from anyone who has already gone through the process. 1) Which books do you recommend to use as a text? 2) Did you start out with just one page--or several pages linked together? 3) Did you use a text editor or a word processing program to do this? 4) Which would you recommend? 5) Also, is it proper in a home page to include links to outside interests? For instance, I lead trips for the Appalachian Mountain Club and would like to link my home page to the AMC's home page. I was considering including one page of outside interests, and linking to those interests, i.e., AMC, church, contra dancing, etc. Is this appropriate or should links be provided to just professional organizations? Would those who have survived this hurdle be willing to share their considerable knowledge? I'll be happy to summarize comments. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services macallen@tiac.net (Slowly adjusting to living with a single parakeet, who never stops playing with the toys. Wish I had his energy!) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 23:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New CHAT topicflooding Hi all, Remember me? I'm the one who got dragged up to Sacramento by the evil one:D (you can't do up and down eyebrows with keyboards, can you?) You can bet I'm thinking he's pretty evil now. Actually, in all honesty, I can't hold him responsible for the weather. Here I am, on what little high ground there is in this place. Seriously, we are very lucky. Not knowing anything, we managed to rent a house in a slightly (and I mean slightly--everything is flat around here) elevated area. A block away marked the border of mandatory evacuations. However, in this area we are not experiencing the flooding of 9-10 miles east (whole town of Wilton evacuated) or north, where something like 90,000 were evac'd. I wouldn't know where to go. There have been some mighty scary rescues, and the footage of animals that were left at home terrified up on the roofs while the water rushed past them and moved further and further onto their places of safety (yup, the water was going up and over the roofs) had me in tears. I'm thinking photos, diapers, pillows, sleeping bags, son, Whimsey with crate so I can take her into shelter with us, and dog food. I know where it all is and the escape is planned and ready. I will not leave my dog behind! One family saw their dog cowering on the roof and called the TV station to ask if a rescue could be made. The Coast Guard went and rescued Rodeo. Now, I have to say yeah Coast Guard, and would even say it if my dad weren't a retired Coast Guard Admiral. But I'm conditioned to say it anyway. This is certainly an eye-opening experience for someone who's been living in weather paradise for 11 years. In San Diego we took the weather for granted. Obviously not here. OK, you've heard enough, I'm sure. I hope that anyone else who is up here is as lucky as we are not to have lost anything in the flood except a few hours of traveling time due to closed freeways. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Thoughtless Critiques: A Cautionary Note Hi - In a recent posting to Index-L a colleague made this comment (I have edited out the specifics): >I happened to pick up [...a copy of a computer book...] and >discovered that the index is pretty terrible. (I bet, knowing that the >author is a computer geek, he probably used the built-in "indexing:" feature >on his WP software.) And I have a couple of books that ... I really >love and use a lot that have poor indexes. A comment like this demands a reponse. First, to keep the record straight: I own a copy of that book. It has a very respectable 22-page, straightforward, indented index. The index was not computer-generated. It was done by hand, one line at a time, by an experienced, competent ASI member. The indexer is identified in the book. I did not write that index, although I have indexed other books for that publisher. Knowing the time (and other) constraints under which their indexes typically are produced, I applaud the indexer for having done so well. The author, by the way, is not a plain-vanilla geek. He is an Alpha Geek (i.e., top-of-the-line geek) who happens to write lucid computer books (unusual) and who has a sense of humor (very unusual). Although that posting doubtless is innocent, it also is careless and regrettable because the indexer's name is in the book. We should avoid making damaging, off-the-cuff public comments that unintentionally trash the work of other indexers. Posting criticism of a colleagues' work to Index-L is not the same as a private conversation over coffee in Starbucks. Such blindsiding, even if inadvertent, is not simply insouciance; it is irresponsible. I once said that posting to Index-L is like tossing a twig into a tree full of roosting starlings: the entire flock takes to the air with a terrible twittering and fluttering. Be that as it may, I value and cherish Index-L, despite occasional bits of bird-droppings. Poking gentle fun is one thing, but even starlings need a safe place to roost, and Index-L is Our Tree. This is more than a matter of courtesy. If we are not safe here, then we shall have lost a very important sanctuary for the open exchange of ideas, and we all shall be impoverished. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 01:28:30 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages Willa MacAllen wrote: > > Greetings: > > I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and > have several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the > following from anyone who has already gone through the process. I haven't written a Web page yet, although I keep intending to do it. I have, however, read MANY books on the subject since I index primarily computer books. I feel compelled to put this caveat on my answers to your questions, though: I work for Macmillan Publishing so I'm slightly biased about which books are best. :) I do NOT however directly profit from any sales. And I also realize that several other computer book publishers have some excellent books for writing Web pages, too. > 1) Which books do you recommend to use as a text? I would recommend "Teach Yourself Web Publishing with HTML in 14 Days" by Laura Lemay, published by sams.net (an imprint of Macmillan). I'm sure there are plenty of other good books, too. > 2) Did you start out with just one page--or several pages linked > together? Depends on how much information you want to include. I would probably lean toward linking several pages together instead of making the user scroll through one long page. It might help to write down what kinds of things you want to include, then separate them into categories for the separate pages (just like indexing! :). > 3) Did you use a text editor or a word processing program to do this? When my husband wrote his Web page, he primarily used BBEdit, I think. HTML can be written using any kind of text editor or word processing program, although it's easier to use an HTML editor. Check any books you're thinking about buying to see if they include a disk or CD-ROM with free software. You might be able to get a reasonable HTML editor that way. > 4) Which would you recommend? Depends on whether you have a PC or a Mac. I have a Mac and have BBEdit, but I don't know if that would work on a PC or not. > 5) Also, is it proper in a home page to include links to outside > interests? For instance, I lead trips for the Appalachian Mountain Club > and would like to link my home page to the AMC's home page. I was > considering including one page of outside interests, and linking to those > interests, i.e., AMC, church, contra dancing, etc. Is this appropriate or > should links be provided to just professional organizations? I don't see anything wrong with having links to outside interests. Unless your Web service provider where you will be putting your Web page has any restrictions, you can put whatever you like on your home page. > Would those who have survived this hurdle be willing to share their > considerable knowledge? I'll be happy to summarize comments. > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > macallen@tiac.net > (Slowly adjusting to living with a single parakeet, who never stops > playing with the toys. Wish I had his energy!) Aren't parakeets great? :) Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:28:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Window view (CHAT TOPIC) The Blue Ridge Mountains. At 07:38 PM 1/4/97 -0400, you wrote: >What can you see from your window? > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Chilmark, Mass. > rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions First of all, thanks to everyone who wrote regarding an indexer's life with cats. Mine are settling in nicely. Now, to the meat of this message: I have just received Windows 95 upgrade as a Christmas present and am scared to death to install it over the 3.11 version (Works for Windows) that is now on my computer. Nothing I have currently installed is meant to go with Windows 95...Although it is supposed to be an ok thing to do to install this (from the point of view that it is an upgrade and not the real Windows 95), I would like to hear from those of you who have done this or know more about what kinks I can expect. I know there will be some! Also, while I have your rapt attention (;-D), I would like to know what you do about pricing for indexing endnotes. It seems that lately I have gotten so many books with these pests and I would like to know how you handle the pricing per page (how much over your usual rate, etc.). In some cases, the publishers' guidelines say not to index the notes, but most do. Thanks again. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:23:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LBINDEX@AOL.COM Subject: Chat - pets etc. As a habitual lurker, I've collected an array of helpful technical information and working wisdom from those professional indexers who often publish material on this list. Since your names have become so recognizable, the tidbits of personality that have emerged in chat messages are doubly enjoyable. Lee Ellen Brower Brower Indexing Services Loveland, Colorado ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 07:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Thoughtless Critiques: A Cautionary Note At 01:31 AM 1/5/97 -0500, Bob wrote and deserves praise for: >Although that posting doubtless is innocent, it also is careless and >regrettable because the indexer's name is in the book. We should avoid >making damaging, off-the-cuff public comments that unintentionally trash the >work of other indexers. Posting criticism of a colleagues' work to Index-L >is not the same as a private conversation over coffee in Starbucks. Such >blindsiding, even if inadvertent, is not simply insouciance; it is >irresponsible. > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 07:23:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages At 09:06 PM 1/3/97 -0800, Willa asked about: >I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and >have several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the >following from anyone who has already gone through the process. > I respond as a page user. I am becoming increasingly annoyed, if not infuriated, by the number of websites only accessibly by esoteric plugins. Any page designer should work for their work to be broadly available. It is simply stunning to me how much this seemingly obviously common sense foundation is forgotten. It's expensive. It takes your work and creativity. It reflects your work and intelligence. A business homepage should be completely available. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New CHAT topicflooding In a message dated 97-01-04 21:13:47 EST, you write: > On a slightly different topic, I was wondering whether anyone on this > list lives in the area of the floods out west? From the recent news > clips, it sounds pretty serious--involving the rescue of people (and > pets!) > Well, here's the news from the Ballard neighborhood, here in Seattle. We sit up high, so we have only had trickles of water in our basement, but this has been one rollercoaster of a week. Two feet of snow, followed by a week of 40-50 degree weather. One lost cat, found 8 hours later shivering under the front porch. We had to cut a new opening to get her out, as she had forgotten how she got in there. A second blizzard set in 15 minutes after we got her out. One giant sinkhole north of here, houses ready to slide down on the bluffs west of here, mudslides flowing over railroad tracks and roads, power outages, houses ready to slide into the Interstate, decks and houses and mud slide and put out one bridge, and water everywhere. Whhheeeee! Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:48:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thoughtless Critiques: A Cautionary Note Bob Richardson, Bravo! Double bravo! And on behalf of the indexer (whoever he/she is), thank you for setting the record straight. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:49:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CHAT: View from window >From my office window I see a quiet street in suburban Phoenix .... a grouping of cactus planted as my front yard landscape. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions At 06:39 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have just received Windows 95 upgrade as a Christmas present and am scared >to death to install it over the 3.11 version (Works for Windows) that is now >on my computer. Nothing I have currently installed is meant to go with >Windows 95...Although it is supposed to be an ok thing to do to install this >(from the point of view that it is an upgrade and not the real Windows 95), >I would like to hear from those of you who have done this or know more about >what kinks I can expect. I know there will be some! > This is only one person's experience. Feel free to post opposing views. I installed Win95 over Win 3.11 in October '95. I had it installed by the dealer from whom I bought Win95. I cannot begin to recount the problems I had over the next several months. I spent literally thousands of dollars on hardware upgrades only to find that things that worked under 3.1 would not work under 95. The same goes for software, in spades. Many of my 3.1 applications did not work. I tried to replace them with Win95 versions only to find the Win95 versions had been rushed to market and were buggy. Tech support was abysmal. Suppliers of 3.1 programs and hardware blamed Win95 for problems. Win95 blamed the suppliers. I currently have two printers, a $1,600 Lexmark and an Epson 24-pin dot matrix. Each works for some applications, neither work for all applications. I finally gave up trying to track down drivers and resolve problems. I found Win95 to be no more stable (perhaps even less so) than Win 3.11. Crashes, hangs, fatal exception errors, etc. were almost daily occurrences. Things came to a head in April of '96 when, in an attempt to repartition my hard drive to accomodate space chewed up by Win95, I inadvertently destroyed the boot sector for the partition with all my work files on it. At that point, I bought a complete new system with vanilla Win95. That seems to have solved most, but not all, my problems. I still have to reboot several times a week. I still have hardware problems. I still have Win 3.11 apps that don't run right. As you may guess by now, I don't recommend installing over an earlier version. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: CHAT my view from my windows In-Reply-To: <199701050633.BAA23970@maildeliver0.tiac.net> In response to my own question, I see my big deck, and beyond that a clearing and beyond that 27 acres of woods. I had to take down my bird feeders because of the cats, expecially Yoda. Sometimes I get turkeys, and always racoons, skunks, deer. I throw apples for the deer every evening and last night one of them actually trotted toward me and came to within 6 feet. I don't encourage this, because she can't distinguish me from a hunter, but it was sort of thrilling. Out of my other window, which I have to go over to to look out of, is a duck pond with about 60 ducks. At any given moment there can be as many as 20 cats in view, as my cats and my landlord's total nearly 30. (Yes, they all get along fairly well. They have their territories are well defined.) Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:02:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages In-Reply-To: <199701050641.BAA08642@maildeliver0.tiac.net> About Web pages, I used the book by Laura Lemay that Cheryl mentioned and found it very easy to follow. I made a very simple web page using Word 5.1. I tried using some of the page-generating programs and found them more confusing than just writing the HTML code. However, my page is extremely basic, though it now has a really cool animated graphic because I won the graphics animation program at MacWorld Expo last summer. You can put links to anything you want in your pages. That's the whole beauty of a Web page, to privide links to elsewhere. There'd be no such thing as surfing without it. I have never visited a single page that doesn't have at least one link to elsewhere on it. I use TIAC, Willa, so if you need help let me know. It's very easy to upload, and to manage your site. I'll give you my phone number. TT Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:52:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: chats, cats, pets, views Dear friends, I should have weighed in on this before, but putting "chat" in the subject line does not help my workload at all. A bounced message is a bounced message and I still have to deal with it. I prefer that there be as little chatting as possible. Let's keep it to indexing. (cat hair and computers is legit, but it is getting beyond that). Sorry to be a curmudgeon. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:37:20 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Index Critique I apologize most sincerely for my lapse in judgment that occurred when I publicly critiqued a book's index and also publicly responded to the person who requested the book's exact title. I had no intent to harm; I wrote my comments from the perspective of a user (and only secondarily as an indexer). I should have thought about this more carefully before I gave the specifics on-list. This has been an educational, if painful, experience for me, and it has posed several questions that I hope can be discussed here. First, we see in _Keywords_ (and elsewhere) detailed critiques of indexes, with full publication data included. On-list, though, it is the practice to not "name names" but to criticize (or praise) in more general terms. I wonder why there is this difference, and what makes it okay to comment specifically in print but not online. Second, we've had some very useful discussions over the past couple of years about what constitutes a quality index--in general. Although there are a number of different ways of defining excellence in an index, for me it always comes down to user accessibility--the user's perspective. We all use indexes as well as make them; if we find one that simply doesn't work well, shouldn't we discuss WHY it doesn't work, so that we each can improve our own efforts? Once again, I apologize to those I have offended. I welcome continued discussion of these issues, though, as I think they are extremely important. Not only for Index-L as a group, but for indexing as a profession. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:37:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: New CHAT topic At 07:38 PM 1/4/97 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >What can you see from your window? The enchanting emerald-green hills of California's Middle Kingdom. If I didn't know I was in CA, I'd swear I was in Ireland! The recent heavy rains have turned this usually golden-brown and buckskin territory into something lush and richly verdant. There is a huge hawk wheeling over the hill directly outside my office window, highlighted against a brilliant blue sky dotted with cumulus storm clouds which are blowing through very quickly. In the distance, the hills are purple, rather than green. There's a palm tree on one side of me, and a Monterey pine on the other. Ooops...a cloud just covered the sun for a moment and it got VERY dark. If I went to the kitchen and looked out, I could see another hill covered with blooming frosty blue ceanothus and populated with more hawks and the small furry critters they feed on. The hummingbird feeder is busy, the roses are actually blooming, and everything is wet, wet, WET. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:33:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade In a message dated 97-01-05 06:32:50 EST, you write: > I have just received Windows 95 upgrade as a Christmas present and am scared > to death to install it over the 3.11 version (Works for Windows) that is now > on my computer. Nothing I have currently installed is meant to go with > Windows 95...Although it is supposed to be an ok thing to do to install this > (from the point of view that it is an upgrade and not the real Windows 95), > I would like to hear from those of you who have done this or know more about > what kinks I can expect. I know there will be some! > I installed it over my Win3.1, and did just fine. But I did do something different... I have a copy of Removeit!, an uninstaller utility. I have never allowed it to remove anything, but it does have a good utility for helping you upgrade to Win95. It will sweep your system, figure out what you need to run things under Win95, allow you to install Win 95 and keep Win3.1 for emergencies, and set everything up to work under Win95. Then, after a few months, if you think everything is working okay, you can delete Win3.1. So you get the best of both worlds, and you can go back if you have to. But you have to have a lot of disk space. Also, if this is not the REAL Win 95, do not install it. You may wind up missing essential DLLs and utilities, and you will be hampered. Make sure you are installing a full version of Win 95. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 16:07:54 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: chats, cats, pets, views Hooray for moderation! One suspects there are companionship, totally chat lists. At 02:52 PM 1/5/97 -0500, Charlotte wrote: >Dear friends, > >I should have weighed in on this before, but putting "chat" in the >subject line does not help my workload at all. A bounced message is a >bounced message and I still have to deal with it. I prefer that there be >as little chatting as possible. Let's keep it to indexing. (cat hair >and computers is legit, but it is getting beyond that). Sorry to be a >curmudgeon. > >Charlotte Skuster >index-l moderator > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 19:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Index critique Please forgive my naivete, but I simply don't understand the problem with pointing out that an index is a bad index. I suppose that we need to think about what Index-L's purpose is. Is it a cheering section? Or is it a list on which we discuss indexing, the ins, the outs, the goods, the bads, the uglies? If I produced a bad index and someone on Index-L said that I'd done a terrible job and then explained why he or she thought the index was bad, yes, I'm sure I'd be upset. But I'd be upset with *myself*. And I'd vow to do better in future. I think I wrote in about various indexes I've had to do that have upset me greatly. I had to index a huge book on Romanticism and was only given 500 lines! I begged and pleaded for more room. No. I told the editor I'd have to eliminate all subheads to fit the index in. Sure, go ahead, said the editor. So, that's what I did. The index was horrible. It helped no one. Who's going to benefit from "Wordsworth, William," followed by fifty or more undifferentiated page numbers? No one. For the same publisher, I had to provide two indexes for one book about Judaism. Again, I was not given enough lines to work with on the subject index, so the subheads got chopped. The other index was to biblical citations. The editor told me how they were to be done. His scheme was totally nonsensical. I begged to be able to put the books of the Old Testament in alphabetical order--or at least the order in which they appear in the Old Testament. NO. He had his own ideas. I knew no one would ever find anything in those indexes. I was terribly upset. Yes, those indexes were atrocious. If, in the index to a book on a particular ISP, you only use that provider's terminology, your new ISP user (and new computer user, for all we know) will be utterly and completely lost in space. This is a disservice to the user. I can only assume that the indexer was dealing with an editor like the one I dealt with. If this is the case, I think we really need to discuss what our clients expect of us. I know that we simply can't turn down lots and lots of jobs. We all need to eat. But when I've had to produce an index that bothered me terribly, I've asked the press to *please* keep my name out of the book. FWIW, I'm sorry to see the possibilities of chatting come to an end. I felt that the chatting was so useful because it brought lurkers out from lurk mode. Now that Index-L had started to look like a friendly place, they were confident enough to join the discussion. I guess we're supposed to keep anything like our personalities to ourselves. Heaven forfend we actually come across sounding like real human beings who work in isolation and who want to gather by the virtual water cooler now and then. Hazel (who has no desire to start a flame war, but who finds current Index-L goings-on to be quite odd) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA You know you're too stressed if the sun is too loud.--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 18:34:59 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Index critique At 07:30 PM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >Please forgive my naivete, but I simply don't understand the problem >with pointing out that an index is a bad index. I suppose that we need >to think about what Index-L's purpose is. Is it a cheering section? Or >is it a list on which we discuss indexing, the ins, the outs, the >goods, the bads, the uglies? > Well, of course. But, let's really consider more of this. Just because one person believes an index to be poorly done, does not mean it is. The given example was to my reading a statement of opinion offered as fact. It is my nature to be highly suspicious of such material. I would be saddened for this to become a forum for unloading gripes based on personal druthers. I doubt it will. In the main, this is an extremely civil and helpful group. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:36:57 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: [Fwd: Re: New CHAT topic] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------60F03CB732CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust --------------60F03CB732CC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <32D0873C.1D2E@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 21:01:48 -0800 From: Ann Truesdale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Re: New CHAT topic References: <199701050039.QAA05696@ixmail5.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Rice wrote: > > What can you see from your window? > A lovely view of salt marsh through the trees of the wooded slope of our back yard. This land has been owned by my family for 250 years or more and I truely love it and feel *rooted* in it. > -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust --------------60F03CB732CC-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:39:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: [Fwd: Re: CHAT topic flooding] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------39F6D177280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust --------------39F6D177280 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <32D08EBA.5FBE@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 21:33:46 -0800 From: Ann Truesdale X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NC250 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Re: CHAT topic flooding References: <199701050432.UAA01437@ixmail6.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I'm thinking photos, diapers, pillows, sleeping bags, son, Whimsey with crate so I can > take her into shelter with us, and dog food. I know where it all is and the escape is > planned and ready. I will not leave my dog behind! > Leslie > LLF Editorial Services I realize that this is completely unrelated to indexing, but seeing how many avid pet lovers are on the list, I have to comment. In the event of an evacuation shelters will *not* let you bring in your pets. They are chaotic places with just people. You will have to find a kennel or vet clinic to board your pet. A note of good news -- after hurricane Hugo here in 1989, many motels in the region waived their "no pets" policy for evacuees. And if you think dogs, cats, & birds are a problem, how about 3 horses? We sat out Hugo, and were lucky being on the relatively less dangerous side of the storm, ie., southwest of Charleston. -- Ann Truesdale --------------39F6D177280-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 23:49:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Windows 95 Upgrade (Long Fwd.) At Dave Talcott's request, I am forwarding this message from him, because it has some good information on Win95 installation. Thanks, Dave. Also thanks to Dick Evans and Jan Wright for their advice on this thorny problem. At this point, I am thinking of having the Win95 returned by the giver and going with the full version. >Return-Path: 75711.1537@CompuServe.COM >Date: 05 Jan 97 18:43:45 EST >From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@CompuServe.COM> >To: Cynthia Bertelsen >Subject: Windows 95 Upgrade > >Hello, Cynthia-- > >I am responding to you directly since none of my postings ever appear >on Index-L; probably hitting the wrong button or something. [If you >think this note is viable you might re-post it for me to the group.] > >If you have, as you said in your note, the Win95 upgrade-->SELL IT >TO A FRIEND! Give it away, lose it, whatever. Or at least exchange it >for the complete NON-upgrade edition. > >Here is why -- and Dick Evans may be able to confirm this -- the upgrade >version, for one thing, comes along with DOS 7 [Microsoft will tell >you "no no it doesn't"] which is for 32-bit programs. The really gritty >nitty is that Win95 sticks itself into your _original_ Windows directory >and presumably also erases what it doen't like in there. There is, I >once thought, an option WHEN INSTALLING of recovering the original >Win311 setup and system operation. This must be done VERY carefully >during the installation and requires the original install disc(s) >to do the uninstall. I am not sure that this works with the upgrade version or >not: the only safe way, IMHO, would be to record your entire >hard drive on a backup before fooling around with Win95. At least one >of my friends is still struggling with his system while getting it >back to normal, and the situation is further complicated by his >machine being a Compaq model and the Win95 is a *Compaq* version! > >When upgrading using the full version, there is -- as I understand it -- >the option of starting your machine in either DOS, Win3.11 or Win95. >I have never done this type of installation and am only paraphrasing >what I read in technical journals. There is also a multiple-choice >booting technique that can be done using DOS 6.22; I don't know if >Microsoft's handbook covers this since I discovered it in Peter Norton's >DOS 6.22 handbook. > >I have had *some* user experience with Win95 on other machines. Frankly >even after following a training handbook for Windows users, with sample >files included, I do NOT like the system. Windows 3.11 may have its >unpleasant quirks, but I find the screen presentation of 95 odd and >much too complicated. I thought graphic user interfaces were supposed >to be easier to use, this one is just gooey. At one time I was considering >switching to OS/2, which has a multiple-boot option also, but I am now >thinking of using Windows NT instead, since it has been longer on the >market and is apparently more stable. > >Another thought regarding 32-bit and 16-bit operating systems: there >is a small add-on program, possibly available online from Microsoft, >called WIN32S.EXE; at least that seems to be the operating portion of it. >This utility is supposed to enable 16-bit programs to run in a 32-bit >environment. Curmudgeon that I am, I prefer to run programs in their >native environment: DOS, Win311 or Win95 and keep the operating systems >not only in their rightful directories but on different drives. > >If I can get my act together I will append a really fine program, >Windows Commander, written by Christian Ghisler. This is the shareware >version; it pulls together all the good parts of File Manager, LapLink, >and some other earlier programs. Herr Ghisler appears to be a brilliant >programmer [reading the history of development is fascinating] and has >been intently following 32-bit progress in the field. This is the 16-bit >version, but I have also purchased the 32-bit: cheap at $35. > >I apologize for the length of this "essay" , but I have few friends >to expound my wisdom at and I tend to become enthusiastic. Hope these >notes have been informative if not useful. > >Cheers & a profitable New Year, > >Dave Talcott > >PS--I have no hardrive space to squash Wincmd so may attempt to send > five separate files. Herr Ghisler may be found at: > > INTERNET: 100332.1175@compuserve.com > WWW: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/wincmd/ > > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 21:45:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions At 06:39 AM 1/5/97 -0500, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >I have just received Windows 95 upgrade as a Christmas present and am >scared to death to install it over the 3.11 version (Works for Windows) >that is now on my computer. Nothing I have currently installed is meant to >go with Windows 95...Although it is supposed to be an ok thing to do to >install this(from the point of view that it is an upgrade and not the real >Windows 95), I would like to hear from those of you who have done this or >know more about what kinks I can expect. I know there will be some! I thought Dick's long post really covered the important things, but I wanted to add a few observations of my own. NOTE: I did not upgrade; I bought a new computer with WIN 95 already installed. I've heard from many reliable sources that upgrading is really not a good thing; you should start fresh with the full WIN 95 setup, as Dick states. When I received my new computer, it was "empty" except for WIN 95 and a few accessory programs. I used FastMove with a direct computer-to-computer cable connection to port over most of the contents of my old computer's hard drive, so I didn't actually reinstall any programs. Whether this saved me some pain, I can't say. I only know it was extremely fast and smooth and all the programs (with exception noted below) worked perfectly the first time out. I am still in many ways wedding to DOS programs, including Macrex. Every single DOS-based program I own runs perfectly under WIN 95, including some that are 8 or 9 years old. Also, all my old WIN 3.1 programs work fine as well, and are a bit easier to use as you can start 'em right up without going to DOS (as some of the older DOS programs seem to require). The only program that I simply could not get to work properly was PageMaker 5.0 (probably not a major concern for indexers). I upgraded to version 6.0, specifically for WIN 95, and it works great. Macrex operates perfectly when run under WIN 95. I have not tried Cindex there, though I do have the program. Perhaps somebody else would care to comment on that. I simply created a shortcut (you'll know what this is once you've installed WIN 95), which is an icon for Macrex that sits right on the desktop. I clicked twice...voila! I'm in Macrex running full-screen. I was a rather reluctant Windows users all along, and dreaded switching to 95 because of all the horror stories I had heard. But this conversion has been virtually painless. The few small problems I encountered were easily solvable by me, without any help from a tecchie. I hope you'll find it just as smooth. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 07:22:13 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: New CHAT topic Boo hoo, I don't have a window :-( ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:23:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New CHAT topic In a message dated 97-01-04 19:40:48 EST, you write: << What can you see from your window?>> A wildlife area--right in my backyard, which is in the heart of the Twin Cities (Minnesota) western suburbs. It's peaceful and snow-covered at the moment, with lots of squirrels and an occasional deer. During the summer, there's lots of green, and with the windows open, I often need to tell nature to quiet down. Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Zibman Subject: Getting started Hi Indexers! I am a very fledgling indexer. Recently, I completed an introduction to indexing course with Will MacAllen (hiya Willa) and hope to start the USDA course this summer. Currently, I am a Judaica librarian at Brandeis University coordinating a retrospective conversion project. Besides my strong backgraound in Judaica, I have a degree in biology and a personal interest in the history of science and technology. I would like to know how you all became involved in indexing. How did you get your first indexing assignment? Any ideas and encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Nancy Zibman zibman@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:44:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Howe Subject: Re: Cat's curiosity: recent job offers --part_AEF679E300007AA300000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline > In a message dated 97-01-03 07:02:46 EST, you write: > > << Within the past few months several job offers were posted (the book > on population growth and the Columbia Journalism Review come to mind), > did anyone on the list have a go at any of the offers? What were > the results? > >> > > Sam: > > I responded to the Columbia Journalism Review request, but heard > nothing back from them. > > Terri Hudoba > Indexers Plus > tahudoba@aol.com > I also responded and never got a reply. --part_AEF679E300007AA300000001 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: Inline John Howe, CEP Managing Editor 345 E. 47th St. New York, NY 10017 Voice: (212) 705-7334 Fax: (212) 705-7812 e-mail: johnh@aiche.org --part_AEF679E300007AA300000001-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:08:29 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions I have had Windows95 installed for about a year or so, and I have never had any problems with it or any of my other software running under it. I think it is great. Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:10:24 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: List Discussion Dear Colleagues, Now that the holidays are over, our pets introduced, and our window-views described, do you think we might get back to the purpose of this list? I subscribed to discuss indexing -- and while I realize that one's environment is germane do we need to discuss it ad nauseam? Please, if you want to chat, send personal emails -- save the list for professional conversation. Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Martin_Ahermaa@tvo.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martin Ahermaa Organization: TVOntario's Online System Subject: Re: CHAT: View from window >From downtown Toronto: Leafless trees, grey skies, but a hyper-active bird-feeder! Martin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:43:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: back to Europe question I'm afraid I may have missed some of the responses to my original questions about indexers in Europe, especially once the cat chat entered the picture. But I gather that there is no one here who is in just the position I described: a freelancer in North America who has taken a "sabbatical" in Europe. If you have been in that position, I would still love to hear from you. Please respond to me privately, so I can be sure to see your message. Charlotte, thanks for speaking up. I'm all for companionship, but I have to say that the value of the list drops way off for me when the bulk of the day's messages are off topic. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:56:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions I pooh-poohed Win95 for as long as I could but had to change over to be compatible with one of my clients. I got the full version, backed up my hard drive, crossed my fingers and installed it. It was a miracle! The installation was simple and everything still worked! I did take a half day class to learn some of the basics, like shortcuts, which made it user friendly. My system is less than 3 years old so maybe that helped. I definitely would recommend only installing the full version though. Good luck! Janice jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:10:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: List Discussion In-Reply-To: <199701061512.KAA05468@polaris.net> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Judith A. Jablonski wrote: > Now that the holidays are over, our pets introduced, and our window-views > described, do you think we might get back to the purpose of this list? I > subscribed to discuss indexing -- and while I realize that one's environment > is germane do we need to discuss it ad nauseam? Please, if you want to > chat, send personal emails -- save the list for professional conversation. I realize that we are no longer allowed to discuss anything of a personal nature on this list. May I refer Ms. Jablonski to a recent posting of our listowner, in which we are told not to discuss anything other than indexing? Hence, Ms. Jablonski's posting does not seem necessary. Further, any such chatty postings carried the subject line of "Chat." Please, folks, before you get all upset about something, read the subject line. When, in the past, we used the word "Chat," it meant simply that: "Chat." If you saw such a subject line and did not want to read the contents, you needed only to delete before reading. So much for the virtual water cooler. Get thy noses to thy grindstones. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA You know you're too stressed if the sun is too loud.--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:47:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Re: List Discussion 6 January 1997 Happy New Year, everyone! Judith Jablonski's admonition (below) raises an issue about Index-L that has come up before: that is, that Index-L actually serves *several* purposes, not just one. It certainly plays an extremely important role in keeping us all up to date with current indexing practices, technology, and marketing techniques. Some of the people who contribute the most to such discussions are those who are working full-time in the indexing field in the isolation of their homes. Though their very regular and thoughtful contributions, Index-L has become a genuine community, offering advice, support, and occasional criticism. I have met very few of the members of Index-L face-to-face, but feel that they have become friends around the "virtual watercooler," and have particularly relished the bits of people's lives that have occasionally been revealed through the topic of pets or window views or late-night thoughts. I can see that people who work outside the home and have colleagues that they see on a regular basis and who are, presumably, just back from holiday, might get impatient with such talk. But I want to make an appeal for recognizing the differences in the work lives of the many kinds of indexers who read Index-L, and that those of us who work at home, day and night, over holidays and weekends--while contributing as much, if not more, to the professional talk that goes on on Index-L--also rejoice in establishing, and feeling, a sense of community with our colleagues who have similar work lives. Talking about our pets or the view from our window is a pretty inocuous--but surprisingly rich--way of sharing a little bit about our lives and discovering how widespread and diverse our community is. I suspect that those who object to this line of talk on Index-L carry on similar conversations with *their* colleagues in the workplace over coffee. Such conversations, no matter where they take place, serve the function of bringing people who do similar kinds of work closer together--which, I would argue--is the *other* important purpose of Index-L: to reinforce this sense of community among indexers. Contributors to the thread about pets and window views have been very good about putting "Chat" in the subject line of their posting. While this may not reduce Charlotte's workload, it offers others the opportunity to delete what they don't want to read, and I encourage them to do so. I would also encourage them to cultivate a sense of curiosity, tolerance, and joy. And--by way of the usual disclaimer--I don't own dogs, cats, birds, or stock in the pet industry either ! Getting down from my soap box now. --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Full-time freelance indexer working at home At 09:10 AM 1/6/97 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Colleagues, > >Now that the holidays are over, our pets introduced, and our window-views >described, do you think we might get back to the purpose of this list? I >subscribed to discuss indexing -- and while I realize that one's environment >is germane do we need to discuss it ad nauseam? Please, if you want to >chat, send personal emails -- save the list for professional conversation. > >Judith Jablonski > >*************************************** >Judith A. Jablonski >School of Library and Information Studies >University of Wisconsin - Madison >Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Getting started I got started by first taking an indexing course in library school and then I indexed my mother's book for free. The very next week after that an editor from that press called me with a project and I have been going ever since. I have sent out dozens of queries, have had three very special indexing friends (you know who you are!) recommend me to other presses, and just in general tried to do the very best I could on all the indexes that I have sent in. I now hire someone to proofread/page-number-check my indexes for me before I send the indexes out and it has worked out very well. I also have a brochure that I send out with each index that I finish, and of course I send brochures, cards, CVs to all the publishers whom I contact for more work. I guess my recommendation is to try to learn the basics of indexing first, do work for free for authors at a nearby university (believe me, you will find someone interested in that), contact the presses involved after you have done the freebies and ask for more (paid) work. Other recommendations in this regard, which have been covered on the list, include doing an index of a book which does not have an index; you can send this index along as a sample in your marketing packets. Patience is also something that one will need during the first year. Ditto sweat and perseverance, because indexing is HARD work in many ways. Good luck. At 09:38 AM 1/6/97 -0500, Nancy Zibman wrote: >Hi Indexers! >I would like to know how you all became involved in indexing. How did you >get your first indexing assignment? Any ideas and encouragement would be >greatly appreciated. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:38:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Re: List Discussion Thank you to Laura and all others who support an occasional moment of Chatting. As a newcomer I now feel less intimidated when asking seemingly basic indexing questions of people who also share space with cats who hack up furballs. Janice jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:41:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages In-Reply-To: <199701051525.HAA18519@mx4.u.washington.edu> I second Pam. One thing we have focused on in designing our Univ. of Washington library pages (haven't tackled a personal one yet!) is making sure that they are viewable with different browsers (Netscape, AOL, Internet Explorer AT A MINIMUM) and different size monitors, both PC and Mac, and that they are intelligible via a text browser such as Lynx. They may not LOOK as glitsy as straight Netscape products; but they are considerably more useful to a broader audience. And isn't useability the first criterion for any indexer-related product?? Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > At 09:06 PM 1/3/97 -0800, Willa asked about: > > >I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and > >have several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the > >following from anyone who has already gone through the process. > > > I respond as a page user. I am becoming increasingly annoyed, if not > infuriated, by the number of websites only accessibly by esoteric plugins. > > Any page designer should work for their work to be broadly available. > > It is simply stunning to me how much this seemingly obviously common sense > foundation is forgotten. > > It's expensive. It takes your work and creativity. It reflects your work and > intelligence. A business homepage should be completely available. > Pam Rider > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:54:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages (fwd) (Please excuse duplication. I have my options for INDEX-L set to repro & ACK, but never saw either for this note sent yesterday morning. Nor did I get bounced messages.) Willa asked some questions about designing a web site that I'd like to address. Please remember, while some design elements are essential (like contact information for your visitors), many are matters of personal preference. I'll try to point out my subjectivity below... > 1) Which books do you recommend to use as a text? I second the recommendation of Laura Lemay's book. It is the best I've seen. I would add a recommendation of one of Mary Cronin's books for the marketing aspects: _Doing Buisiness on the Internet_ and _Doing More Buisiness on the Internet_. Jill & Matthew Ellsworth have a book worth looking at as well: _The Internet Business Book_. The business ones aren't really ones you'll forever in your home, so I'd get a copy from the library and take notes. Lemay's book is a good reference book to have next to your computer. Having said all that, I'll confess that I didn't use a book. I asked a colleague to show me how to write HTML documents. In about 15 minutes, knowing 5-6 tags, I was authoring my first web site. I finished a rough draft of that site in one day. Rather than turning to books, I relyed on my experience as a user to tell me what design elements were best (as Pam touched on in her recent note), and I used web sites that explained HTML tags as my "text". That site is still up & running. HTML is _that_ easy. You really can teach yourself. > 2) Did you start out with just one page--or several pages linked > together? I never considered just one page. As a user, I was annoyed with (1) waiting for long pages to load, and (2) by having to scroll down long pages to get to the information I needed. Now, some people prefer (or are required by their Internet Providers) to keep it to one page. I think it all comes down to personal preference. As a web user, do you have a preference? > 3) Did you use a text editor or a word processing program to do this? No. I've used one program to convert documents that have already been written. But I always end up editing the tags. HTML conversion & authoring software is still new, and most of it is fairly rough. There will be mismatched tags, or things that look different from what you wanted them to look like. I those cases, you'll need to know enough HTML tags to repair the documents. A very easy task. I don't use them because I've been designing sites for long enough that using the software & repairing those tags takes me longer than just doing my own tagging. Especially when it comes to editing pages. > 4) Which would you recommend? The one I use for document conversion is freeware: Internet Assistant for Word (available from the Microsoft web site). Of those I've seen lately, Adobe PageMill (for the MAC) is the most advanced I've seen. The pages it generates need fewer repairs, it gives you more HTML tag options, and there are updates enough to almost keep up with the new HTML tags being created. You will pay a pretty penny for this software. All the others out there act the same and look the same. If you don't buy PageMill, I'd recommend buying the cheapest thing you find. It will be nearly exactly like the others you see (with the exception of PageMill). > 5) Also, is it proper in a home page to include links to outside > interests? For instance, I lead trips for the Appalachian Mountain Club > and would like to link my home page to the AMC's home page. I was > considering including one page of outside interests, and linking to those > interests, i.e., AMC, church, contra dancing, etc. Is this appropriate or > should links be provided to just professional organizations? That's part of the beauty of the web. Linking to sites that show your interests is quite common (and gives your visitors a better view of who you are). Whether you include them on a professional site is up to you, as the author. Think about you as a user. Do you like seeing those "personal interest" links on business sites? If so, include them. If not, don't. I would say this - clearly identify them as non-essential. If you have a serious potential client stopping by, and they're in a hurry, they will be frustrated by following non-essential links on your site. They'll appreciate knowing ahead of time (before linking to the page, and having the page load), that it isn't information that they _need_ before calling you about a project quote. > Would those who have survived this hurdle be willing to share their > considerable knowledge? I'll be happy to summarize comments. Certainly. There are only a few of us, compared to how many have the capability. But, it will take either time (if you do it yourself) or money (if you hire somebody else to do it). I think that's holding a lot of folks back. There are _tons_ of web sites that do instruction on how to build a web site. The one I've written for a community college course in web site design is at: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/Users/Depts/Library/html/index.htm It is geared toward faculty at community colleges, but may be useful to you. It includes links to other HTML sources (like a fabulous site in Japan on designing HTML tables). I don't have time to echo & elaborate on Pam's comments as much as I'd like. But, if check out recent surveys of web use, you'll see that only a small percentage of people are using images. That is, even the people who use graphics browsers (like Netscape and Mosaic and AOL's browser) actually turn images off. If you want to really reach all your potential clients and colleagues, be sure that your site isn't exclusively built for those with the fastest modems, newest browser software, and time to spend looking at graphics. Use alternative text (as separate pages, or using the ALT tags with your graphics) to be sure people not using graphics know that the image they're missing is only your logo, or only a bullet, or whether it is a vital navigation bar. A web author will reach a wider audience by building with the "lowest common" browser software in mind (something like LYNX). Be sure to have people check your pages from many different browsers, and ask them to tell you what could look better with a bit more editing. But, I'm getting into more details in this note than I planned. Most of all, remember to enjoy this. When you see how easy it is to write HTML documents, you'll be shocked. And you'll be almost addicted to "tweeking" your site. On most of my sites, I edit 1-3 hours a week. On the ASI web site, Jan Wright and I do 7-10 hours of editing per week, _each_. The larger the site, and the more visitors you get, the more editing you'll do. Hope all this rambling helps. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 08:58:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Windows 95 Upgrade and other questions In-Reply-To: <199701051808.KAA24965@mx5.u.washington.edu> Contrary to Dick's experience, my changeover to Win95 (about 6 months after it came out) went smoothly. (This was on a 486/DX-2 50 Compaq.) I did end up upgrading most of my software as new editions appear; but most of the critical 3.1 versions, including Cindex, worked just fine. The exceptions were my Connor Backup software (took a new version to make it recognize Win95 file names), Uninstaller, and a couple of other seldom-used programs. I DID upgrade to 16 mb RAM before changing operating systems, BTW, and wish I had done that a lot sooner. Haven't converted my notebook computer simply because it only has 8 MB RAM and I don't feel the need to add the additional memory on that one. I vastly prefer Win95 to 3.1; it's been considerably more stable for me. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:30:48 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Designing Home Pages In-Reply-To: I'm not actually the page designer, so can't really answer your questions. But in essence we avoid "busy" pages with fancy backgrounds and frames. And we TEST the pages on Netscape, Internet Explorer, AOL, and Lynx before they go public. If the information isn't legible/accessible on all four, the page gets re-designed. If you want to check us out, the url is: http://healthlinks.washington.edu There is also a "bifocals" test. If the average bifocal wearer (e.g., me!) has problems reading a page because of font size, background, colors, etc., it's out! Carolyn On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, David Robert Austen wrote: > Greetings, Carolyn: > > Will you be kind enough to give me a few clues for avoiding the problems > that come with designing web pages that need to be "universally" viewed? > > Perhaps there is a set of guidelines you've come up with? > > Or a URL for a website that covers these problems? > > One of my fellow students made the comment that he thinks the only way is > go go into everybody's houses and adjust their browsers! > > > With thanks in advance, > > > David > ----- > > ------------------- > David Robert Austen > Masters Degree Program in Information Science > Indiana University, Bloomington > Indiana 47405 U.S.A. > Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 > -------------------- > > > On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Carolyn G. Weaver wrote: > > > I second Pam. > > > > One thing we have focused on in designing our Univ. of Washington library > > pages (haven't tackled a personal one yet!) is making sure that they are > > viewable with different browsers (Netscape, AOL, Internet Explorer AT A > > MINIMUM) and different size monitors, both PC and Mac, and that they are > > intelligible via a text browser such as Lynx. They may not LOOK as glitsy > > as straight Netscape products; but they are considerably more useful to a > > broader audience. And isn't useability the first criterion for any > > indexer-related product?? > > > > Carolyn Weaver > > Bellevue, WA. > > phone: 206/930-4348 > > email: cweaver@u.washington.edu > > CGWeaver@aol.com > > > > On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > > > > > At 09:06 PM 1/3/97 -0800, Willa asked about: > > > > > > >I'm in the process of pulling material together to do a home page and > > > >have several questions to ask. I'd appreciate comments on the > > > >following from anyone who has already gone through the process. > > > > > > > I respond as a page user. I am becoming increasingly annoyed, if not > > > infuriated, by the number of websites only accessibly by esoteric plugins. > > > > > > Any page designer should work for their work to be broadly available. > > > > > > It is simply stunning to me how much this seemingly obviously common sense > > > foundation is forgotten. > > > > > > It's expensive. It takes your work and creativity. It reflects your work a nd > > > intelligence. A business homepage should be completely available. > > > Pam Rider > > > > > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > > > > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > > > prider@tsktsk.com > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 11:52:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: List Discussion Greetings: I'm a little unclear what "just indexing" is? Is it just the process of indexing--or does it also involve the business and computer aspects of a freelance indexing business? As a relative newcome, I'm just asking for my own clarification. Willa MacAllen macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:45:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" "Thank you to ------ and all others who support an occasional moment of Chatting." I don't mind the "occasional" moment -- but if you look back on this list for the past several weeks it has not been "occasional" but rather, it has been dominated by chat with the occasional discussion on topics relating to indexing and subject analysis. Yes, I can delete the chat messages -- but what about having <> to retrieve up to 15 messages a day about pets and other non-related topics? A few months ago there was a discussion about using thesauri for indexing in which I remarked on the List about the preponderance of freelancers on this list. I was quickly, both privately and publicly, reminded that there are other folks here. And yet, all I seem to see is the conversation of home-based freelancers. All I am asking is that we respect the purpose of the list. Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:49:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: What is "Just Indexing" Ms. MacAllen wrote: <> I think it involves all of the topics you have mentioned -- but perhaps I am mistaken. Is this list ONLY for freelancers? If so, then I have made a mistake in some of my remarks to the list members. Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:02:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Play it again, Sam... Controlled-vocabulary indexing Hello everyone. Now that everyone (?) is back from the holiday season, I'm going to try posting this yet again (on account of I only got one or two responses the first two times I posted it and I'm kind anxious about the whole thing). This isn't my first post to Index-L, but I'll introduce myself again anyway 'cause lots of you weren't around during the holidays. My name is Elaine Firestone and I'm a Sr. Technical Editor at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center. My main function is the editing and typesetting of a series of technical memoranda (TM) documenting an ocean color remote sensing satellite mission, however, I'm also the indexer and writer of our index volumes of the TM series. I posted my indexing questions to another member of this list, but since she hasn't dealt with what she called "controlled-vocabulary indexing in a periodical" she suggested I query this list for help. Here is the majority of the original post: We now have 39 volumes in the series and I'm just starting to edit the 40th. Since launch (of the satellite) has been delayed for three years (it was supposed to go up in July 1993), the series wasn't envisioned to go on as long as it has but... Anyway, every sixth volume of the series is a cumulative index. It includes lists of all acronyms, symbols, and references used within the series, to date (i.e., index volume #24 would include everything up to 23 and index vol. #36 includes everything up to 35, etc.). The main function, however, of the index is to provide an index of key words and phrases that at least initially, were predetermined at the time of printing (for the databases these things are catalogued in). I write these index volumes. I do all the indexing, data entry, editing, typesetting, etc. for these volumes, but I'm not really sure at this point if I'm doing the indexing correctly. I do all the indexing manually, i.e., nothing is electronic. I review what the key words and phrases are for the "new" volumes being covered in the latest index, look for them, and then go back to see if existing words (from previous indices) occur in the "new" volumes. Then, I go back to the old volumes and see if any of the "new" words occur, and so on. Example: I just finished the most recent index #36. (Vol. 30 was the index before.) 1) I first started with indexing the _new_ words from vols. 31--35. 2) Then I go back and see if any words _already_ in vol. 30 are in the new volumes and index them if they are. 3) Then I go back to all the old volumes and see if any of the _new_ words appear in them and index them. Am I doing it right? No one has ever said otherwise to me and the indices have received a lot of kudos, but that doesn't mean they are being done correctly. ____________________ I'd appreciate any pointers or advice anyone could offer. Indexing software isn't an option. TIA. elaine ___________________________________________________________________ Elaine R. Firestone, AESE Voice: (301) 286-4553 Senior Technical Editor Fax: (301) 286-1775 Records&Information Manager Net: elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov NASA/GSFC/GSC/Code 970.2 elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov Bldg. 28, Rm. W128 Greenbelt, MD 20771 "I'm not trying to change the world... USA just make it more readable." --E.R. Firestone SeaWiFS Home Page: http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEAWIFS.html SeaWiFS Style Manual: http://seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEAWIFS/TECH_REPORTS/style_manual.html ___________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Index Critique >> On Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:37:20 -0800, Sonsie said: S> I apologize most sincerely for my lapse in judgment that occurred when I S> publicly critiqued a book's index and also publicly responded to the person S> who requested the book's exact title. I had no intent to harm; I wrote my S> comments from the perspective of a user (and only secondarily as an S> indexer). Sorry, but I have to jump in here. We need something like a "hold harmless" clause for this list. I think it's quite appropriate to discuss whether or not an index works for the user. Some time ago, I sent a message to a different mailing list recommending the use of numeric timezones (i.e. +0400 instead of EDT) because I remembered reading somewhere that the symbolic ones weren't unique. I mentioned EDT also being used for Austrailian Eastern Desert Time. Someone who lives in Austrailia posted a reply to that list asking what on Earth I was talking about; the only abbreviation he'd heard was AEDT for Aussie Eastern Daylight Time. My first response was to look through every saved/received mail message on my system to find out where I got the "Desert" claim to begin with. No luck. Second response was to use AltaVista, Lycos, Infoseek, Excite, and every other Web engine I could access to see if any reference to Eastern Desert Time could be found. No luck. I asked a buddy to do a Lexis-Nexis search on "Eastern Desert Time". No luck. I checked every Internet RFC for that phrase. No luck. My next step will be to ask someone at the Greenwich Observatory and the Naval Observatory about past and present use of timezone names; if that doesn't pan out, my final step will be to post a reply to that list saying that I'd flipped my bozo bit prior to sending that message in the first place. Folks, we gotta learn to separate feelings and ego from work. I know that indexes are frequently written with unreasonable time and space constraints. I've written more than one program under similar restrictions with less than stellar results. If it's pointed out to me, I certainly feel embarrassment, but I point out why it happened and then either fix it or explain why I can't. Under NO circumstances do I get annoyed with the person who mentioned the problem. This has saved an enormous amount of wear on my stomach lining. Will Rogers said something to the effect that it's not the stuff we don't know that hurts us, it's the stuff we know that ain't so. Distinguishing between fact, non-fact, and assumption is more important than my feelings; I say this not because I'm a cold fish but because my computer and the programs I write couldn't care less about my feelings. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 I'd love to go out with you, but I'm teaching my ferret to yodel. --unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:30:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: chat Hazel: >FWIW, I'm sorry to see the possibilities of chatting come to an end. I >felt that the chatting was so useful because it brought lurkers out from >lurk mode. Now that Index-L had started to look like a friendly place, >they were confident enough to join the discussion. I guess we're supposed >to keep anything like our personalities to ourselves. Heaven forfend we >actually come across sounding like real human beings who work in isolation >and who want to gather by the virtual water cooler now and then. For the life of me, I can't see why we should interpret someone's request to keep the chat to a minimum as a demand that we keep our personalities off the list. Charlotte has reminded us about some netiquette that is basic to most lists: that the postings not stray too far from the stated subject of the list. I think it was a very modest and polite request and doesn't deserve this kind of misinterpretation. Yes, isolation is a problem for indexers, but can't we handle that (a bit more than we have) by chatting with a select few off-list? To forestall being misrepresented myself, no, I'm not suggesting we eliminate *all* chat from the list. >From time to time, I see Index-L participants raise questions about what Index-L is for. Here is an excerpt from the latest Index-L FAQ: >---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the >business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- >book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate >future form of indexing. It also includes meeting >announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and >questions/answers about software/equipment. > >---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated >to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie >recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, >dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not >exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be >legitimately related to indexing, they may be appropriate.) It is similar to blurbs you get from other professional lists: Index-L is for talking about indexing, copyediting-L is for talking about copyediting (only it isn't any more, so people unsub in droves), Hegel-L is for talking about Hegel, and so on. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 12:18:27 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: just indexing J. Jablonski wrote: "all I seem to see is the conversation of home-based freelancers." No, we aren't all freelance home-based indexers. In fact, we aren't all back-of-the book indexers, either. Nor are we "all" any one kind of anything. But some of us enjoy the 'not specifically right on the subject' messages. I edit a periodical index. I index about a dozen periodicals and edit the indexing of about 60 others. The people who do the indexing I review don't want to be doing it, don't like doing it, do it late, and often do it poorly. So, the strictly-on-the-subject messages and the chat of people who *like* what they do is refreshing. Although I work in an office full of people, they don't understand nor do they appreciate my professional concerns. IMHO, FWIW, maintaining one's sanity in today's world--especially for someone self-employed in the indexing field--IS part of indexing. Mental health is just as important as physical health. Should we eliminate discussions about ergonomics because they aren't strictly indexing? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 02:39:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cain, Joy" Subject: CHAT AND LIST DISCUSSIONS I sympathize with Ms. Jablonski. As an in-house indexer, and someone new to the list, I have also been frustrated with all the "chat" about cats. I'm sure I'm probably biased since I don't care for cats myself. True, it is possible to just delete all the "chat" messages without reading them, but at some point one thinks it would be wiser for those who want to talk back and forth to each other about personal things to just do it privately. I also appreciate Ms. Gottlieb's position about the multiple purposes of this list. I guess the answer is that, as with everything else in this world, you've got to learn to take the good with the bad. As George Costanza so aptly put it, "we're living in a society, you know." No flame intended. Joy P. Cain Nevada State Legislature jcain@lcb.state.nv.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:35:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: New CHAT topic In-Reply-To: <199701050039.AA07896@world.std.com> My backyard, with trees downed from the early December storm. Sarah On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Rachel Rice wrote: > What can you see from your window? > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Chilmark, Mass. > rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 11:51:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: CHAT AND LIST DISCUSSIONS In-Reply-To: <199701061845.KAA23553@mx2.u.washington.edu> I am not opposed to some "mental health" chat (and have said so before). But if those of us in outside offices consistently spent 80% of our work day off topic (which is my conservative guesstimate on the proportion of chat/on topic messages today) we wouldn't be working in those offices very long. Just an observation... Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:00:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Window Views and Their Relevance All, Re the chat on window views: I'm sorry some of you didn't find this bit of chat of interest. To tell you the truth, I think it can serve to remind the indexers on this list who work in office settings that many freelancers are a different kind of breed, interested in manipulating their lifestyle a bit more than most, and vested in quality of life issues, in addition to being the consummate professionals that so many of us are. Some of you may be hiring some of us. This is where we're coming from. Might be of value to know that. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:27:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CHAT AND LIST DISCUSSIONS And I say "amen" to Joy Cain's temperate analysis and response to this whole issue, which, IMHO, is getting blown out of proportion, and overreacted to. I vote for toleration of each other, please. And of the fact that those of us on the list are of different ilks, breeds, varieties, makeups, and needs. I *am* a fulltime freelancer working in my home office. I am *not* a cat lover or cat owner. I like *some* chitchat. I do *not* enjoy cat chitchat. So .... ??? In short, let's get back to the business of indexing and allied subjects now, and if we sometimes stray, let's be kind, patient, and charitable about it. Charlotte's gentle reminder to get back to the business at hand was just that, IMHO. Just a gentle reminder, and a point well-taken. Our listserve "group" is just like any other collection of individuals in an office or at a professional meeting. All kinds are represented. We all won't see eye to eye. We all won't like each other. We learn to live together, or if not, we remove ourselves as much as we need to, or completely, if necessary, but hopefully not. ====>The saying for today: "I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." (quoted in a letter from Voltaire, often attributed to him). Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:57:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: chat and indexing Hey all, I won't repeat what others have already said and said well, but I also think there is a place for chatting on this list. And for those who are claiming that there has been a lot of chat lately, well, no one was having problems/questions/concerns. Just because there has been some chat doesn't mean that indexers can't come forward with legitimate questions. They are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps the reason there has been mostly chat has to do with the holiday season. I don't know. It is the first time I have seen such a large proportion of chat to "serious" messages on the list. And, I suspect that as we all get back to work, that proportion will change. In the meantime, it has given people on the list a chance to get to know each other a little better. As one of you said, this is a community. Within communities, we get to know each other, we pursue those relationships that we think will be most fruitful to us (both professionally and personally), and we maintain the "health" of the community in various ways. Also, just as in "real life," in our virtual community people come and go. A little chat can invite them in, let us get to know them, let them get to know us. And then, if the relationship has potential, we can take the chat to a greater more personal level through private email. I think most of us are doing that now. I firmly believe in the importance of the virtual water cooler. It gives me an opportunity to know what other indexers do, both in-house and freelance. It offers a starting point for friendships and professional relationships. After all, how many of us have not gotten jobs because of "who we know" not "what we know"? Social relationships can lead to great things, both professional and personal. One last point. It is true that there are chat lists and chat rooms on the net. But the people here aren't looking for random chat. They're looking to share some life and experiences with their colleagues. We all start here on this list by having something in common--indexing. We are all colleagues on this list. Getting to know each other is part of being colleagues. That doesn't mean that we all have to like each other or be friends. But as colleagues we can tolerate and even support each other. At a conference or in an office, if you are not interested in the topic, professional or personal, you can step away. Deleting messages is "virtually" stepping away. Enough for now from thankfully sunny Sacramento. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:54:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Kasoff Subject: Re: Index critique I agree with Hazel! It seems we should be allowed some chat. The current Index-L goings-on are quite odd. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Tortora Subject: Re: List Discussion Amen to that. I often skip over messages that are of no interest to me. A simple click of the mouse does it! Sue Tortora ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:10:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: CHAT AND LIST DISCUSSIONS In-Reply-To: <199701062125.QAA15683@polaris.net> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Carolyn G. Weaver wrote: > I am not opposed to some "mental health" chat (and have said so before). > But if those of us in outside offices consistently spent 80% of our work > day off topic (which is my conservative guesstimate on the proportion of > chat/on topic messages today) we wouldn't be working in those offices very > long. Just an observation... I may be misinterpreting, but this looks like yet another us vs. them situation. I wish we could avoid such us vs. them thinking. We're all in this profession together, folks. If indeed 80% of recent postings were off-topic (I haven't been keeping track), that still doesn't mean that each and every freelancer on the list spends 80% of his or her time doing things other than his or her work. Right now, I'm reading postings in the evening, after I've ceased working for the day. I'm guessing that other freelancers have dropped notes to the list--whether on-topic or off-topic--in what they consider to be their breaks. I take a break every hour to get up and stretch; I also save what I'm working on to disk every hour on the hour. Sometimes, during that break, I'll check my e-mail. Then, it's back to work for me. I don't want to get into an argument about who does more "real work" during a day. I keep track of the time I spend on projects, either because my client wants me to charge by the hour or because I'm being paid by the indexable page and want to see what I'm earning per hour. I do not charge my clients for any of the time I spend on e-mail, even if I may be posing a question that concerns a project on which I'm working. This concept is pretty much like an attorney's "billable hours." I do any number of things during a workday that are not part of my billable hours: I call prospective clients, I return calls from publishers who have called me, I take breaks, and the like. I am not paid for this time. (And I do not receive benefits, other than intangible ones.) Not everyone who works in an office has to account for all his or her time. Now, granted, I don't have to account for mine, either. Of course, I probably wouldn't earn any money if I didn't keep track of the time I spent on various tasks. Would it be possible for people to PLEASE stop sniping at each other? For some unknown reason, the topic of chat vs. no-chat comes up on this list with stunning regularity. Why is this topic so prevalent on this list, a list that has very, very little traffic? Could we please stop taking ourselves so seriously? Could we possibly laugh now and then? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA You know you're too stressed if the sun is too loud.--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:26:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: CHAT AND LIST DISCUSSIONS At 07:10 PM 1/6/97 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: >Could we please stop taking ourselves so seriously? Could we possibly >laugh now and then? Excellent post, Hazel, and my sentiments exactly. There are any number of indexing-related posts on topics that have no interest or usefulness to me, that I routinely delete...but I wouldn't think of complaining about their presence. I try to be considerate of others and not post a great deal of chat-related messages, but I do respond to a few. I would hope that we all COULD laugh at ourselves now and then, and not be so uptight. I was particularly taken by the comments of some of the lurkers, who said they appreciated the chat messages and they felt more comfortable posting once they had seen that we are real humans and not just indexing machines. I certainly will continue to be considerate of others' concerns WRT too much chit-chat, but knowing myself as I do, I doubt I will be able to be totally dedicated to pure indexing for the rest of my natural list-life. I would like to think a little tolerance and acceptance is in order. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: chat/80% of work day? In-Reply-To: <199701062128.QAA162236@rs8.loc.gov> On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Carolyn G. Weaver wrote: > But if those of us in outside offices consistently spent 80% of our work > day off topic (which is my conservative guesstimate on the proportion of > chat/on topic messages today) we wouldn't be working in those offices very > long. Just an observation... Carolyn, It's not quite accurate to assert that because 80% of the recent posts appear off topic that that means everyone, freelance or employed, is spending 80% of his time not working. It may take 15-20 minutes to type a post and it probably takes no longer than 15-20 minutes to skim through 20 or 30 posts. If one uses one's finger to delete chat posts unread, I doubt it takes more than a minute to delete off-topic posts, even if it is as high as 80%. So, that is no where near 80% of of an eight-hour workday for anyone, home-bound or office-bound. And am sure many of the office-bound spend/waste that much time (i.e., 20-30 minutes) on the way to and from the bathroom, water fountain, coffee maker, or cigarette breaks. The home-bound probably spend more of their workdays actually working than the offic-bound because there are fewer distractions, esp. from colleagues. And of course by raising the whole issue of chat vs. professional discussion only, all of us who bother to respond, whether pro or anti-chat, are keeping an off-topic, non-professional thread going which adds to the number of off-topic posts! Would perhaps be better if those tired of chats simply threw in a couple of questions or problems instead. Happy New Year to all! Sam Andrusko (office-bound) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 12:53:32 +0000 Reply-To: stealth@ican.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: M Dunlop Subject: PLEASE RESPOND EVERYONE PRIVATELY TO STEALTH@ICAN.NET Hi there!!!!! I'm looking for a broad range of people to answer this survey and e-mail this filled out form to: stealth@ican.net This survey is to help me complete my thesis for my Honours Bachelor of Science in Forestry. When answering the yes/no questions please feel free to add your own comments. When answering the multiple choice please (X) the appropriate answer. Please answer the questions to the best of your knowledge. If you have any questions or further comments please feel free to e-mail me at the address above. 1. Where do you live? (Province and City) 2. What do you do for a living? 3. How old are you? 4. What was the last grade that you completed? 5. What is your definition of a forest ( )a) a source of timber ( )b) a source of food ( )c) a place for recreation ( )d) habitat for plants and animals ( )e) a source of economic gain ( )f) other please specify 6. Do you use the forest for anything? (yes/no) 6b. If yes, please list what you use the forest for (hunting, fishing, hiking etc.). 7. What is the greatest threat to the forest ( )a) logging ( )b) pollution ( )c) forest fires and insects ( )d) human intervention in nature ( )e) other please specify 8. Do you feel we are degrading the forest? (yes/no) 9. Do you feel we are protecting the forest? (yes/no) 10. Do you feel that we should be using the forest for economic gain? (yes/no) 11. Do you think we are planting enough trees? (yes/no) 12. Do you think the forest industry or the government should be responsible for planting trees (reforestation)? (yes/no) 13. What would you consider good reforestation practices ( )a) planting the same species of trees ( )b) planting different species of trees in the same area ( )c) allowing the forest to return naturally 14. Do you think the forest industry needs regulating by the government? (yes/no) 15. If yes, why? 16. Should we be managing our forests? (yes/no) 17. If yes, what do you consider good management policies ( )a) managing for economic gain ( )b) managing for recreation i.e. fishing, hunting ( )c) managing for a diverse forest i.e. different plants and animals ( )d) managing for conservation of the forest and it's resources ( )e) other please specify 18. Do you think the forest industry is doing enough to protect the environment? (yes/no) 19. Is there any harvesting/logging in your area? (yes/no) 20. Is the forest industry harvesting (cutting) too many trees, just enough trees, or too few trees? 21. Do you think clearcutting is a good forest practice? (yes/no) 22. Do you think clearcuts are ( )a) too widely used ( )b) used just enough ( )c) not used enough 23. Should we allow harvesting in old growth forests? (yes/no) 24. If yes, who should regulate the amount cut ( )a) the forest industry ( )b) the government ( )c) the public 25. Do you think there are too many logging roads? (yes/no) 26. Do you think the logging roads give us too much access to the forest? (yes/no) 27. If yes or no please explain. 28. If an educational program on forestry practices and the forest industry were to become available in your area would you attend? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 29. Would you become involved with the forest industry if public involvement was encouraged? (yes/no) A) if yes, why? B) if no, why not? 30. If you could attend a course/seminar on forestry what would you like to see covered? THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. If you know any one else who wouldn't mind taking the time to fill out this survey I would really appreciate their input.. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: What is "Just Indexing" >I think it involves all of the topics you have mentioned -- but perhaps I am >mistaken. Is this list ONLY for freelancers? If so, then I have made a >mistake in some of my remarks to the list members. No, it's not just for freelancers, nor are freelancers the only subscribers. The conversation will generally be "dictated" by those who choose to post. When the nonfreelancers want to post about nonfreelancing issues, they can, and then there will be other threads. I imagine that the freelancers on this list tend to dominate simply because people in offices are more constrained in when and how much time they can spend doing e-mail. When I worked in an office, I kept my e-mail to my lunch break. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:36:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Indexing rates In-Reply-To: <199701062301.SAA15638@cap1.CapAccess.org> Dear Collective Wisdom I am a newbie indexer who has completed the last lesson of the USDA indexing course and is looking for paid work. I told a former professor that I was getting into indexing and she called me recently about a job. She said that it was a book that she was editting with a colleague of hers and that they did not have the page proofs yet. They wanted to give me the typewritten manuscript which was over 600 pages double spaced. I told her that I could not produce a finished index since I would not have the final pagination. She said that she understood that but if I would do a "mock up" of the index than when I got the final proofs I could put the correct pagination. My understanding for her reasoning was that she wanted to save time at the point of the final page proofs. I quoted her a price of $2.00 per page. I figured with the double spacing it would even out to about $4.00 per page for regular proofs. With the backtracking that I would be doing to put in the final pagination I felt that this was a fair quote. You can guess what's coming can't you? I called her today and she said that she spoke with her colleague and they found someone who would do it for a lot cheaper. I didn't get an exact figure nor do I know what arrangements were worked out. She added however, that her colleague has a lot of experience with this sort of thing. So I ask all of you, who have lots of experience with this sort of thing, did I quote a fair price? Should I have handled things a little differently? I was so excited at the prospect of getting a paid job but now I'm feeling a bit deflated. (sigh) TIA Regards Julia Marshall juliam@capaccess.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexing rates At 04:36 PM 1/7/97 -0500, Julia B. Marshall wrote: >You can guess >what's coming can't you? I called her today and she said that she spoke >with her colleague and they found someone who would do it for a lot >cheaper. I didn't get an exact figure nor do I know what arrangements >were worked out. She added however, that her colleague has a lot of >experience with this sort of thing. So I ask all of you, who have lots >of experience with this sort of thing, did I quote a fair price? Should >I have handled things a little differently? I was so excited at the >prospect of getting a paid job but now I'm feeling a bit deflated. (sigh) I wouldn't, under almost any conceivable circumstances, work from a typewritten manuscript to begin with! It will be edited, cut, amplified, and otherwise changed almost beyond recognition by the publishers before it is anywhere near ready for indexing. So I'm afraid I can't tell you if $2 a page is adequate or not. My cheapest rate these days, for a book that has been typeset and is not especially complex, is $2.50 per page...and it goes up almost immediately. If this woman's colleague has a lot of experience with indexing, that person ought to know that you can almost never produce a satisfactory index from a manuscript...not even a decent mockup of the final product. I've forgotten the exact equivalency (perhaps somebody else can remember), but a 600-page double-spaced ms. is probably going to work out to be less than 300 final pages...an amount of work that most pros could polish off in a week or less. So saving time at the end isn't a good reason, for a book of this size, to demand that you work from the ms. All in all, though I'm sorry you missed your first professional assignment, it sounds like a difficult and thankless job best left to that other person who was so much less expensive (and probably knew a LOT less than you do about how indexing works). Best of luck on finding your first good assignment! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:35:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cain, Joy" Subject: INDEXING RATES Really, Julia, you've got to be more assertive. Why didn't you ask her to tell you how much the other person would be getting paid? Why didn't they tell you that they thought your quote was a little steep--thus paving the way for a little negotiating? If your friend's colleague had a lot of experience with "this sort of thing," he should have known that freelancers would rather negotiate for a price that would please everyone rather than lose an assignment, all other things being equal. Don't lose your excitement over this one. Remember, "the workman is worthy of his hire." Since you're starting out I would suggest you begin keeping a log of all your professional contacts: name and phone number of who you spoke with; type and size of project; price initially quoted and price settled on; how much time it took to complete the project; and whether when you finished you felt you had gotten fair payment. I'm not a freelancer myself so I can't tell you whether your price was "fair." My gut reaction is that it is irrelevant. Unless you said, "I'll take this much and absolutely no less," they should have been willing to discuss it before running to someone else. Otherwise it would seem as though you were being punished for being "bad." I humbly bow to sager counsel. Joy P. Cain Nevada State Legislature jcain@lcb.state.nv.us ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 17:48:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Indexing rates At 04:36 PM 1/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Collective Wisdom > I am a newbie indexer who has completed the last lesson of the >USDA indexing course and is looking for paid work. I told a former >professor that I was getting into indexing and she called me recently >about a job. She said that it was a book that she was editting with >a colleague of hers and that they did not have the page proofs yet. They >wanted to give me the typewritten manuscript which was over 600 pages >double spaced. I told her that I could not produce a finished index >since I would not have the final pagination. She said that she >understood that but if I would do a "mock up" of the index than when I >got the final proofs I could put the correct pagination. >SNIP If you have a program like CINDEX, then working from temporary pagination is not a big deal. Otherwise, it could be a lot of extra effort. Not knowing more about the material, I can't say for sure about your rate. A rate equivalent to $4.00 per single-space page seems a bit higher than average. High-tech computer stuff runs about $3.00 - $3.50 on the average with some specialized topics going higher. Academia usually pays less. I recently bid a periodical job at $1.75 per page and was told that competitive bids came in at $. 95 per page!! Go figure. I know that when I am seriously underbid on computer books and have a chance to see the work of those bidding against me that I invariably see a difference in quality between the competition and what I would do for the higher price. When in doubt, ask for a sample and index it. Multiply the time required by a reasonable hourly rate then divide the total by the number of pages to generate a realistic per-page rate. If it takes two hours to do 50 pages and you need $30 per hour (which is effectively about $15 per hour, considering freelancer overhead) to get by, then 25 pages per hour dictates you need only $1.20 per page. If it takes you 12 hours (and this has happened to me) then a bit over 4 pages per hour dictates over $7.00 per page. Pick your numbers, decide what you can live with, and stick to it. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:08:06 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 > Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 02:37:02 -0600 > From: Cheryl Dietsch > Subject: Re: special characters > > I routinely double post the special characters both at the beginning of > the index and under the spelled-out version because I have no way of > knowing how each person reading the book might want to look them up. I > would guess that most people would look at the beginning of the index, > but for those people who would look for the spelled-out version first I > want to make sure that they can find what they are looking for. This question related to computer manuals. From a different viewpoint, I indexed a book for beginners on English grammar etc, and decided to put symbols at the beginning so that if someone wanted to find out about, say, an ellipsis, they didn't have to know the name, but could look up the symbol. These symbols were removed from the index by the editor, as I noticed recently when checking the book. So obviously in this case the editor considered that it was far more important for people to be able to look up the name, rather than the symbol. In the case of computer manuals, I agree with the other writers who have suggested double entry - I don't like to assume that people work in one way without having some experience or evidence. Glenda. P.S. Have just been skimming through mail lately and not replying, as Jon and I are busy with a new 2-month old baby, Jennifer Wendy (Jenny). Hope to have a bit more free time now as things settle down. ************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 16:00:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 2 Jan 1997 to 3 Jan 1997 At 04:08 PM 1/7/97 +1100, Jon and Glenda wrote: >This question related to computer manuals. From a different viewpoint, I >indexed a book for beginners on English grammar etc, and decided to put >symbols at the beginning so that if someone wanted to find out about, say, >an ellipsis, they didn't have to know the name, but could look up the >symbol. This is a wonderful idea, and I'm sorry the editor didn't deem it of sufficient usefulness to retain. I'd bet that 75% of the general population doesn't know what those little dots [...] are called, and there are probably other punctuation marks and symbols that are equally mysterious. BTW, congratulations on the new baby! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Re: non-bitnet address test test only ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 19:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --KAA25576.852562926/hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: --KAA25576.852562926/hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Content-Type: MESSAGE/DELIVERY-STATUS Content-ID: Reporting-MTA: dns; hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Arrival-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:02:05 -0500 (EST) Final-Recipient: RFC822; INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET Action: failed Status: 5.1.2 Remote-MTA: DNS; po1.indiana.edu Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:02:06 -0500 (EST) --KAA25576.852562926/hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu Content-Type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-ID: Return-Path: davidaus Received: (from davidaus@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id KAA25575; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:02:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:02:05 -0500 (EST) From: David Robert Austen X-Sender: davidaus@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu To: Sonsie cc: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Problem payers In-Reply-To: <199612270529.AAA14825@obslave.ucs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings, all: I am making the transition from journalism/photography to information science, thus my membership in your list. I have had much experience in collecting from clients too and here is an idea I'd like to share. There is a new initiative taken by the American Society of Media Photographers: our new Client/Member referral system a database driectory on clients will allow ASMP members to talk with other members who have had "experiences" with problem payers and other strange creatures out there in the business world. Many of our concerns would never be covered in the reports issued by Dunn & Bradstreet, of course. A database will hold information on who works with whom, but an individual's client list will not be accessible as such by competitors. May I suggest that one representative of INDEX-L phone or E-mail Bruce Blank at the ASMP and ask for details and suggestions? I will be happy to provide his particulars to whomever contacts me on behalf of INDEX-L. Yours sincerely, David Robert Austen On Thu, 26 Dec 1996, Sonsie wrote: > At 12:58 PM 12/23/96 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: > > >Many, many thanks to Sonsie for her terrific posting! > > > >I think that, far too often, freelancers feel they're absolutely > >powerless. They're not, as Sonsie has so superbly related. > > Thanks, Hazel! I got to thinking, after I had sent that note, that perhaps > some publishers were lurking and would decide I was such a tough broad they > would never hire me! But I just hate seeing people wring their hands and > whine about how they have problems getting paid. > > Hope your Christmas was great. I am still in recovery after having a > houseful of guests for three days and cooking, cleaning, and entertaining > until I thought I would die. It was fun, but very exhausting, and I have two > indexes and a writing project all pressing on me. Early to bed tonight, then > hit it tomorrow... > > Hazel...I got a mystery nondelivery notice with an unintelligible message > attached. I think it might have been this message, that didn't go through > the first time. If not, well, sorry for sending it twice. > > =Sonsie= > ------------------- David Robert Austen Masters Degree Program in Information Science Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana 47405 U.S.A. Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 -------------------- --KAA25576.852562926/hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu--