From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:54:00.90 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706A" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:47 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:33:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Wordperfect 6.1 Thanks for the info, Rica! I tried to subscribe and found that I had to add my email address after the subscribe line. (Should have been obvious, I guess!) Do Mi >You can subscribe to it as an e-mail list by sending a message to > >LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu > >with the message > >subscribe wpwin-l > >in the body of the message, and no signature line. (OK, you probably >knew that.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:34:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Rules and specs Dear Indexers, one and all, Here's another one of those cases in which the "rules" of indexing will only carry an indexer so far, if the rules conflict with the editor's instructions: I am indexing a book called "60 Ways that Farmers Can Protect Surface Water," in which each of the 60 chapters is about 4-5 pages long (total book is 300 pages). Each chapter covers a way in which surface water can be protected. I find myself with the following entry: manure: application of, 178-181, 182-183, 184 (table), 185-187 instead of manure: application of, 178-187, 184 (table) because the editor prefers for each chapter to be included as a separate range of pages (in other words, there are three consecutive chapters on aspects of the application of manure in farm fields, plus a table following one of the chapters). Because of the other subheadings under "manure," I do not want to divide the pages about the application of manure from each other (one solution to avoiding the string of locators after "application of"). I want to group the three chapters, but the editor has instructed me to maintain the distinction between chapters in strings of page numbers (of course, this may change if we have some space considerations down the line). So, my diplomatic (I hope) solution is to provide the separate locators as instructed, but to call the editor's attention to this long string as an example of something we might want to discuss should we need to cut some lines from the final index. However, this is another nagging example of a case in which someone judging my index "by the rules" would toss the book against the wall and judge me unfit to wear the badge of indexer! This judge might contend that I do not know the rules of good indexing. In fact, I know the rules of good indexing, but in this case I am willing to modify them according to the rules of good service: provide what the client asks for as much as I can within the rules of good indexing. Does this "lapse" of indexing purity disqualify me as a card-carrying member of ASI? When it comes time to discuss certification of indexers again, I hope I can remember to bring this up... Signed, A Worried Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:41:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara A. Wallace" Subject: Re: Rules and specs In a message dated 97-06-01 13:51:45 EDT, you write: << Does this "lapse" of indexing purity disqualify me as a card-carrying member of ASI? >> Good thing ASI doesn't issue membership cards! :D When we work in a business culture where "the customer is ALWAYS right," how will we define indexing "standards" for certification? I guess we could always submit a sample of work prepared under ideal conditions, i.e., no impossible deadline, no ridiculous style guides, and no length restrictions.... Barb Wallace Ironwood Indexing & Editing Services Phoenix ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 18:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In a message dated 97-05-29 13:23:53 EDT, Nancy Guenther writes: << My question is how others who have home pages describing indexing deal with this issue? Do your ISPs have clear policies about when a site crosses the line from "personal" to "commericial? >> Nancy, Not all ISP's differentiate between personal and commercial pages. You might want to check out rates and services other ISPs. I am surprised that your site, which seems to be primarily a listing of links to other sites, would be considered commercial. You may have to pay more, with another ISP, but maybe not triple. I have seen many ads for ISPs lately that include commerical web space and domain names for relatively low monthly rates ($20-30, I think). Whether they have the service you want may be another issue. Good luck--and thanks for all the links (esp. web page design) ! Marilyn Rowland Rowland Indexing http://www.marisol.com/rowland.htm Marisol Productions http://www.marisol.com Mass. Chapter ASI http://www.marisol.com/maasi/maasi.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:25:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Index archives Not long ago there was a protracted discussion here about how we = magnetically archive the indexes we create. Someone suggested using a = compression utility to save space. My gratitude to whomever that was. = I acquired such a utility and have been compressing not only the index = in all its iterations (RTF, text, native) but all related material = (including invoice, transmittal letters, statistics, etc.) with = astonishing results. The last four index archives I have created are on one floppy disk occupying approximately 15% of the space of the = originals. Now I have the problem that I will run out of space on the = diskette label before I run out of space on the disk. It is, however, a problem I can live with. The particular utility I use on my Macintosh is Stuffit from Aladdin = Systems, but I am sure similar results are available in the Windows = realm. Thanks! Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:06:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Bad subcontract experience I hired someone to tag a Word file from a CINDEX listing. She performed well on a test project, but has just returned her first real work and it is wholly unsatisfactory. She obviously never proofread her work -- she returned the Word files without compiled indexes -- and I have spent three hours so far patching it up. I am certainly not going to hire her again, but should I: A. Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again. B. Pay her and explain why I'm not hiring her again. C. Pay her. explain, and withhold three hours pay. D. Other Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:31:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 11:06 PM 6/1/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >I hired someone to tag a Word file from a CINDEX listing. She performed >well on a test project, but has just returned her first real work and it is >wholly unsatisfactory.... > >I am certainly not going to hire her again, but should I: > >A. Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again. >B. Pay her and explain why I'm not hiring her again. >C. Pay her. explain, and withhold three hours pay. >D. Other A or B, depending on your feelings about how she'll take it. Definitely don't withhold pay. For three hours at any reasonable rate, it's not worth the potential hassle and ill will. Jonathan Sachs Sand River Software, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:56:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience Dick, I'd subtract the three hours from her pay and explain what she did wrong (or didn't do at all). Difficult as it may be for you to be specific about the problems with her work, she'll never learn what she needs to know if somebody doesn't tell her...and it looks as if you've been nominated. I had a similar problem a couple of years ago, but it involved a close friend...who, luckily, wasn't trying to make a career out of editorial services. So I paid her and kept quiet. I wouldn't have done that if she had been in the business--or trying to be. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:08:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience It's one in the morning and I already have two replies! You folks gotta get a life! :-) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:20:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Subbing the tags. As you can see from my "Bad contracting experience" thread, I am not having much luck finding someone to tag Word files for me. I interviewed six people and only one was able to complete the test package I had put together and she failed miserably on her first real job. For those of you who do this sort of thing, some questions: What qualifications do your sucontractors have? I am looking for: Proficiency in tagging Word files. Enough knowledge of the computer subject matter to be able to decide where on the page the tags go. Tolerance for unpredictable schedules and tight deadlines. Are your subs local? How do you handle the transfer of materials? Do you provide hardcopy or just the files? I don't have time (or money) to FedEx proofs back and forth. Do your subs simply enter tags from the Mark Index window or have they devised some automation? I was able to tag 13 pages per hour by cutting and pasting from an RTF file generated from CINDEX. My recent sub was typing the entries and only achieving 7 pages per hour. Do you know anyone who would be interested in such work? I have a client that I am going to have to start turning down unless I can find someone to do the tagging with reasonable efficiency. Queries to me via e-mail. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:22:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 01:08 AM 6/2/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >It's one in the morning and I already have two replies! You folks gotta >get a life! :-) I got one...right after I e-mailed off my subject index (author index will go out tomorrow, when I'm fresh enough to proofread it properly). It's only the shank of the evening here...10 PM, and I'm watching the Tonys. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 02:12:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subbing the tags. I go with Sonsie's reply. I'd explain what she did wrong and dock the 3 hours. If she understands what the problem is and appears able to correct it, you may be able to hire her again. After all, if this is a first-time real-life situation for her, she may not be aware of all the details that you expect. In a way, this sounds like a training experience as well as subcontracting. And, I don't have a life. It's after 11 pm here (CA time), and I will probably be watching the sunrise as I finish an index to send out tomorrow. With any luck, my life starts tomorrow. (For those of you watching the Tony's, I know Annie's not nominated, but I just want to belt out her theme song.) Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:40:27 -0600 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience Richard Evans wrote: >>I am certainly not going to hire her again, but should I: A. Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again. B. Pay her and explain why I'm not hiring her again. C. Pay her. explain, and withhold three hours pay. D. Other Dick, It depends on two things: your contract with her, and whether or not she is local. Depending on the performance agreement in the contract you may have to just pay her. If you don't and she is local she can easily take you to small claims court. In addition, we all want to do the ethical thing. To be fair to her and give her a chance to grow in her profession, you should not "Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again." I don't know what time constraints you were under but I would have sent the document back to her for editing before acceptance, detailing the problems. -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/HYPERTEXT TECHNOLOGIES Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc wgm@sageline.com CompuServe: 70713,2225 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:11:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: [Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: binghgmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found)] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1EBA64FA2A94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks like I wasn't awake when I was addressing this post! Willa MacAllen macallen@tiac.net --------------1EBA64FA2A94 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mailrelay.tiac.net (mailrelay.tiac.net [199.0.65.237]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26353 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost) by mailrelay.tiac.net (8.8.5/) with internal id GAA05056; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199706021053.GAA05056@mailrelay.tiac.net> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="GAA05056.865248827/mailrelay.tiac.net" Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: binghgmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found) Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 This is a MIME-encapsulated message --GAA05056.865248827/mailrelay.tiac.net The original message was received at Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:45 -0400 (EDT) from p1.ts26.metro.MA.tiac.com [206.119.238.98] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: binghgmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found) --GAA05056.865248827/mailrelay.tiac.net Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; mailrelay.tiac.net Received-From-MTA: DNS; p1.ts26.metro.MA.tiac.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Final-Recipient: RFC822; INDEX-L@BINGHGMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Action: failed Status: 5.1.2 Remote-MTA: DNS; binghgmb.cc.binghamton.edu Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:47 -0400 (EDT) --GAA05056.865248827/mailrelay.tiac.net Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from LOCALNAME (p1.ts26.metro.MA.tiac.com [206.119.238.98]) by mailrelay.tiac.net (8.8.5/) with SMTP id GAA05051 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 06:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33916707.7A04@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 05:11:51 -0700 From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: INDEX-L@BINGHGMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: RE: Bad subcontract experience Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dick: I think you should do B: pay her and tell her why you are not hiring her again. If you pay her and don't tell her why you are not rehiring her, she may continue to do poor quality work for another client. If you are working with a contract, I think you are required to pay her the full amount stated on the contract. The only way that someone will improve the quality of their work would be for you to provide feedback on their work. I teach a class on Information Brokering in the Boston area (the formal term for what I've been doing as a freelancer since I received my MLS Degree in 1989). I think freelancers should automatically check in with clients after a they've completed a project. This step provides freelancers with an opportunity to remind clients that they are available for work. It also gives freelancers an opportunity to find out whether their last project was satisfactory to the client. BTW, I hope she isn't a member of the list. BTW, again, it was nice to meet you in W-S. It's always nicer to know who someone is when you read their comments on the list. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (....hoping to get everything done in the next 3 days and get ready to lead an AMC trip for 4-days to Monhegan Island in Maine. The trip starts on Thursday of this week and there is so much to do in addition to getting 13 other trip participants to Port Clyde, Maine in time to catch a ferry to the Island.....) --GAA05056.865248827/mailrelay.tiac.net-- --------------1EBA64FA2A94-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:02:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Subbing the tags. At 02:12 AM 6/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >I go with Sonsie's reply. I'd explain what she did wrong and dock the 3 >hours. If she understands what the problem is and appears able to correct it, >you may be able to hire her again. After all, if this is a first-time >real-life situation for her, she may not be aware of all the details that you >expect. In a way, this sounds like a training experience as well as >subcontracting. I won't be hiring her again in any event. In addition to screwing up the job, she informed me she isn't willing to work weekends again. I'm afraid my schedules don't allow that luxury, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:32:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Bad subcontract experience Dick - You didn't say if you had expressed your dissatisfaction directly to your subcontractor. If not, give her the opportunity to make things right, if there's time, rather than spending your time on her work. (She proved, via your pre-test, that she can do the task.) If you accepted the work, I think she deserves to be paid. Good luck! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:11:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Index archives In a message dated 97-06-01 20:28:14 EDT, you write: > > The particular utility I use on my Macintosh is Stuffit from Aladdin = > > Systems, but I am sure similar results are available in the Windows = > > realm. > > My particular love is Winzip 6.2 from Niko Mak. It's shareware for Windows 95 and earlier versions of Windows, and I use it daily. The index I am working on currently is now 1.4+ MB in size, too big to fit on a disk anymore to back it up, and Winzip brings it down to 340k. It replaces the old PKZip utilities completely as a standalone application. Plus, it will unzip not only zipped archive files, but also MIME encapsulated files, and nearly every other odd encoding scheme there is, which is grand when people send you files your email can't open for some reason. Their web site is http://www.winzip.com. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:57:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience Dick, I would pay the person (they did the work), explain what they did wrong (so they can learn to do better), and explain why I wouldn't hire them again (not worth my time to do these kind of corrections). They may need the explanation to understand where they went wrong, and I think an employer has to accept the sometimes people will not work up to standard (and accept some element of culpability for the kind of instructions given, for example?--I'm not pointing the finger, just suggesting that sometimes it may be a matetr of miscommunication, not ignorance) and you want to have a reputation for being a good employer even when people don't work out. (Look to the long-term effect of not paying her rather than just to the short-term solution.) On the other hand, sometimes I hire temps instead of employees precisely because if they are not working out after two hours, I can send them on their way and owe nothing (that is part of the deal with the temp agency)... simplifies the process when things aren't working out. Barbara (P.S. Yes, I get a mixed bag from the temp agency, but I have had some excellent workers through that route... at least 25% of the time, which I think is no worse than when I have hired an employee.) (And yes, I do try to examine what I could have done better to make it better for the employee, or otherwise I won't ever learn how to be a better boss, something I find is harder than I thought it would be.) Try reading "How to hire the Right Person" by Denis Cauvier, HRD Press, Inc., 1993. ISBN 0-87425-230-X Good luck! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:35:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Ranck Subject: Re: Book on names I seem to remember reading on this list a reference to a book that discussed names and how to treat them for the purposes of alphabetization, indexing, etc. I can't find the reference and wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction. Many thanks. JR John Ranck Harvard University Development Office 124 Mt. Auburn 3rd Floor Cambridge, MA 02138 voice: (617) 495-9752 fax: (617) 495-0521 jranck@harvard.edu http://www.simmons.edu/~ranck/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:36:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience You know, I'd like to change one thing I wrote last night re this experience. Sleep deprivation and answering on the fly meant I did not think my answer out. I would explain to the sub what they did wrong, give them the opportunity to fix it, explaining that for me to fix it would take my time and would therefore cut into their paycheck. But I would give them the chance to set it right. An aspiring professional would take that opportunity, as I think we all would. And I do believe in giving second chances. Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll never make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:50:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 12:36 PM 6/2/97 -0400, LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: >You know, I'd like to change one thing I wrote last night re this experience. >Sleep deprivation and answering on the fly meant I did not think my answer >out. I would explain to the sub what they did wrong, give them the >opportunity to fix it, explaining that for me to fix it would take my time >and would therefore cut into their paycheck. But I would give them the chance >to set it right. An aspiring professional would take that opportunity, as I >think we all would. And I do believe in giving second chances. I agree, Leslie, except that I know in my situation I almost never have time to send something back for a re-do. I'd probably have ended up fixing the problems myself, as Dick did, simply due to lack of time. That's why I didn't even think of this alternative when I answered his query. I just assumed he didn't have the time to spare. >Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll never >make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D Weekends? What are those for? ;-> =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:06:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience In-Reply-To: <199706020508.WAA10390@mx2.u.washington.edu> We are not all in the same time zone, don't forget. I say A or B. Depending upon where you live you could get yourself in a pile of legal trouble if your subcontractor decides to make waves. If you withhold pay you may also find yourself bad-mouthed among other contractors. I know I am hesitant to enter into a relationship with anyone who withholds or does not pay, even for a good reason, or who has been bankrupt. I am also hesitant about repeat business from someone who has had to be reminded repeatedly to pay. The slightest indication of this kind of thing, no matter how justified, and I avoid them. So, while it sounds like you have reason to be disappointed with the contractor, A or B (I prefer this one). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:09:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Bad subcontract experience Leslie wrote: << Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll never make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D >> Or as an in-house indexer! Erika (who was in the office on Saturday and Sunday) Sams, Sams.net Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Richard S. Perla" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Bad subcontract experience If she won't work weekends, she probably would also object to indexing 'manure, tons of...' (and you thought I'd miss the sly manure reference! Not a chance!) So you won't think that I'm wasting ozone with trivialties, many thanks for the tid bits that abound, such as the win list. I hesitate to ask, but does anyone know of a Proofreading list? I hesitate to ask because I was signed up to Copyedit-L for a couple of weeks, and those people REALLY don't have a life. Humor section: Glancing at the shopping list that my husband wrote up, I couldn't help but notice this entry: oil, olive. Jean Perla Yarmouth, Maine P.S. To the people going to Monhegan: you lucky dogs! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:21:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall Somebody: >> My fee increases >> for this sort of nonsensical work, but right now even $100 an hour doesn't >> seem like enough while I am sweating away at the keyboard and it is 95 >> degrees outside. Jan Wright: >Ah, does anyone else have the urge to charge what I call Annoyance fees? >Where I feel like charging double because the client has made the project >very difficult with arcane tool demands, or putting into the process >constraints that just delay the project and annoy me? I don't ever do it, but >I think about it. Generally I don't -call- them annoyance fees, but they do show up in my project estimates/bids for technical writing contracts (haven't felt the need to do it for an index yet). I generally charge more for anything involving MS Word, for example, especially for jobs where I'm expected to do illustrations, a complex index (I'm pretty new at this), or comply with unusually arcane formatting requirements. I bill those jobs strictly by the hour and put a table in my proposal showing the estimated time required to do the various project tasks using Word vs using some other method that I think is more appropriate (PageMaker, FrameMaker, hire a specialist, whatever). @Kat --->Correct email address: katnagel@eznet.net <--- Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY Technical writing / Editing / Web site development http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ NO NEW MAIL: START WHINE/POUT SEQUENCE? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:34:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Indexing Letters I'm wondering if anyone has a copy, or can tell me how to get a copy, of a past article from the Indexer. I'm interested in getting a copy of "On Editing and Indexing a Series of Letters" by Katherine Frost Bruner, Indexer 1 4, no. 1 (1984): 42-46. Thank you, Peg Mauer Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:45:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages Bonnie Taylor: >would >people look down their noses at a site listed as >"aol.members.com/bonald/indexing" or something similar to that? I have my business web site on AOL, along with my personal one (definitely a low priority project, right now!). I use a separate screen name for the business site so that it isn't obviously part of my personal site. Personal site: http://members.aol.com/katnagel/ Business site: http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ (MasterWork was too close to one already taken :-[ ) @Kat --->Correct email address: katnagel@eznet.net <--- Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY Technical writing / Editing / Web site development http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ NO NEW MAIL: START WHINE/POUT SEQUENCE? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:18:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages Kamm Schreiner: >Hosting a web site as a virtual >domain is not a lot more expensive ($360/yr. or less) [snip] >you can have many forwarded email addresses such as >bonnie@bonnieswebsite.com etc. which all give the "perception" of a >substantial business. Interesting. When I researched this with six different ISPs for my own site about 6 months ago, I got similar quotes from most of them: a minimum of $36/month for 2 Megs of commercial web space (one ISP wanted $300/month for this!), max. 3 graphics/page (including navigation buttons!), and a single email account. This basic fee did -not- include a virtual domain name. There was an additional monthly charge for that, with an even higher charge if I wanted a 'real' domain name (registered under my business name with Internic, not just an alias on the ISP's server). Additional forwarded email addresses were $10-20/month -each-, depending on the ISP. Three of the six ISPs would allow me to maintain my own site; two charged extra for ftp access to upload pages; one insisted on doing all the design and maintenance. They all limited the number of hits they would allow/month without extra charges. One ISP offered a tiny discount if I let them put their ugly-ugly blinking ad on my home page. To get the same features I get from AOL (5 separate email accounts, 10M web space, unlimited hits) would have cost me a minimum of $36/month basic fee $40/month 4 extra email accounts $20/month 8Meg additional web space $10/month 500-1000 hits/month (you never know...) ----> $106/month, or $1200/year if I paid the whole year in advance. At the moment, the $239.40/year I'm paying to AOL looks pretty good! Of course, I don't usually try to log on right after school, or between 7-10pm, or on Saturdays . @Kat --->Correct email address: katnagel@eznet.net <--- Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY Technical writing / Editing / Web site development http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ NO NEW MAIL: START WHINE/POUT SEQUENCE? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Nagel/MasterWork Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience >>Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll never >>make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D > >Weekends? What are those for? ;-> Weekends? That's when my husband disrupts my concentration by doing the housework I don't have time to do during the week . @Kat --->Correct email address: katnagel@eznet.net <--- Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY Technical writing / Editing / Web site development http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ NO NEW MAIL: START WHINE/POUT SEQUENCE? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:43:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 12:36 PM 6/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >I would explain to the sub what they did wrong, give them the >opportunity to fix it, explaining that for me to fix it would take my time >and would therefore cut into their paycheck. But I would give them the chance >to set it right. The problem was that I received it at 9:00 PM Sunday and it was due first thing Monday morning. >Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll never >make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D Well, certainly not in my client base. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages Hi Kate, I use InfiNet for my email ISP which is $9.95 per month for 10 hrs. I have almost never exceed this and when I have it was only an hour or two. My web site is hosted by Anawave "http://www.anawave.com/virtualpage/virtual.html". There is a one time setup fee for a virtual domain name and then I pay $29.95 per month. I have unlimited email forwarding addresses (note: there is a difference between a "forwarding address" and an "account") and I have complete control of the web pages. The $29.95 includes 10 Meg of storage for my content. When I tried AOL myself about 6 to 8 months ago you HAD to have a web page in AOL's format. This may not be true anymore, but you should read AOL's terms. I know that they reserve the right to remove your web page if it generates too many hits and they may also have a policy against "commercial" web pages. Anyway, my total yearly internet related fees are about $40 * 12 = $480. The web hosting part is $360 per year. BTW, there are other services available from "commercial" web hosting providers that are not available from AOL. For instance I don't believe that you can have a CGI script in AOL. Nor can your web page hosted on AOL allow the user to download a file using anonymous (sp?) ftp. I have even heard of ISP's that provide absolutely FREE service. I don't know how they do it, but it is for real. Surf the net and find out more. I hope this has been of some help. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:24:17 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: taxes and Indexer Web pages In-Reply-To: <199706022013.QAA20859@fh102.infi.net> If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, can you deduct part or all of the monthly fees as advertising expense? If so, how do you describe it? Just as "advertising"? Thanks, Rachel Rachel Rice Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, consulting ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:26:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience How do you get your husband to do that? On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:29:53 -0400 Kat Nagel/MasterWork writes: >>>Now that we know she doesn't work weekends, we can be certain she'll >never >>>make it as a freelance indexer.... right? ;D >> >>Weekends? What are those for? ;-> > > >Weekends? That's when my husband disrupts my concentration by doing >the >housework I don't have time to do during the week . > > >@Kat --->Correct email address: katnagel@eznet.net <--- > >Kat Nagel, MasterWork Consulting Services, Rochester, NY >Technical writing / Editing / Web site development >http://members.aol.com/mwrk/ > >NO NEW MAIL: START WHINE/POUT SEQUENCE? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:53:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Ackermann Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages Kat Nagel wrote: >At the moment, the $239.40/year I'm paying to AOL looks pretty good! Of >course, I don't usually try to log on right after school, or between >7-10pm, or on Saturdays . Hi there! I'm an indexing newbie, but I surf the net regularly for my "real" job. AOL may be popular and affordable, but remember -- if you can't log on afternoons, evenings, or weekends, neither can your potential customers!! (No, I don't work for the competition ;-) I tried to look at at least three commercial sites on AOL today and either got a "server busy" type message or waited so long for the page to load --and I am a patient person-- that I gave up. And I'm on an ethernet connection, not a modem. Maybe I'm spoiled with a fast connection, but frankly I don't have the time to sit around and wait, and I won't try back later if I can find the information I need elsewhere. Does AOL provide you with any type of log so you can find out how many hits your site gets at different times and how many connections were refused? Just curious. Good luck in cyberspace! Liz ******************************************************************* Liz Ackermann Program Support Technician (WebWeaver) Program Development Office, Research and Graduate Studies Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University lizacker@vt.edu Phone: (540) 231-2455 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:47:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience In-Reply-To: <199706021946.MAA05270@mx2.u.washington.edu> Was the person who performed the "bad subcontracting" per chance asked to stay up all night and work around the clock? That is more than working on "weekends." Sounds like there may be more to this story than meets the eye. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades Subject: Re: Embedded page counts. In a message dated 97-05-27 23:23:41 EDT, Dick Evans wrote: << Let me rephrase the question. Suppose I count 100 pages and the client counts 95. What are some possible explanations for such a discrepancy? >> 1. Font, face and size changes 2. Margin changes 3. Not counting blank (last chapter) pages 4. A miserly soul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 02:47 PM 6/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >Was the person who performed the "bad subcontracting" per chance asked to >stay up all night and work around the clock? That is more than working on >"weekends." Sounds like there may be more to this story than meets the >eye. Guess again. Based an an earlier test experience with this same subcontractor, the work was estimated to take six hours. It was delivered to her on Friday afternoon and returned to me on Sunday night. She actually spent eight hours on it. The only one who was up all night was me. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:28:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Bad subcontract experience Richard Evans wrote: >I hired someone to tag a Word file from a CINDEX listing. She performed >well on a test project, but has just returned her first real work and it is >wholly unsatisfactory. She obviously never proofread her work -- she >returned the Word files without compiled indexes -- and I have spent three >hours so far patching it up. > >I am certainly not going to hire her again, but should I: > >A. Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again. >B. Pay her and explain why I'm not hiring her again. >C. Pay her. explain, and withhold three hours pay. >D. Other If you are certain that the precise specifications were crystal clear, and you see NO potential of wanting to help her correct the poor practices (such as poor accuracy and lack of proofreading) so that she could be of real help in the future, then you could go with B (B being more helpful to her than A). Otherwise, how about D, cooperative problem-solving: explain how much work this has been for you, and see what she suggests as compensation/corrective action, with the goal of continuing the professional relationship and helping to train her as to what is expected. If no reasonable suggestions are forthcoming, then C. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:35:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience At 06:28 PM 6/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >If you are certain that the precise specifications were crystal clear Not that I'm picking on you, Larry, but this question of what I specified has come up before. The errors included: spelling errors, missing entries, extraneous entries, mis-coded tags that ended up as if they were index entries, and zero proof reading. Should I really have had to spell out those points? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:29:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jmccomp3@AOL.COM Subject: Excellent Lirarian Resource 8, 000 Videos and CD-ROM Catalog online!! Over 8,000 of the world's best instructional and educational videos and CD-ROMs. Hundreds of subjects including: Academic Studies, Art, Beauty, Biography, Boating, Business, Childcare & Parenting, Children's Learning, Computers, Cooking, Crafts, Documentary, Exercise, Gambling, Gardening, Health, Home Improvements, Music, Nature, Personal Growth, Pets, Photography, Sports, Transportation, Theology, Travel and many more! http://www.totalmarketing.com/fourthgn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:30:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages If you are researching web pages, check out budgetweb.com. This site explains various options available and lets you search for the options you want. The prices quoted are $20/month and less for web hosting, but that they don't seem to include internet access. I am still looking. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:22:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Book on names On Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:35:15 -0500 John Ranck writes: >I seem to remember reading on this list a reference to a book that >discussed names and how to treat them for the purposes of >alphabetization, >indexing, etc. I can't find the reference and wonder if anyone can >point >me in the right direction. > >Many thanks. > >JR > >John Ranck Nancy Mulvany's book, "Indexing Books," (University of Chicago Press) has a chapter (30 pages) on indexing names. The "Chicago Manual of Style" also has a detailed discussion on indexing names. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:11:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: 4/22 ASI-STC Meeting --PART.BOUNDARY.0.22634.emout08.mail.aol.com.865307351 Content-ID: <0_22634_865307351@emout08.mail.aol.com.11562> Content-type: text/plain At the end of April, the Philadelphia ASI Chapter held a joint meeting with the Society for Technical Communication. The members of STC seemed to be very interested in indexers' work, and the ASI members of the panel gave the STC people a lot of good information about the challenges technical writers face in writing their own indexes, as well as the limitations of indexing with the indexing feature on popular word processing programs, such as Word or WordPerfect. 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Flaherty Subject: My previous post re: Philadelphia Chapter STC/ASI Joint Meeting So sorry---I just realized that I did not sign my name to the message. I think I was having a "senior moment!" Jeanna Flaherty Jeanna Flaherty I N D E X I N G Philadelphia, PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: My previous post re: Philadelphia Chapter STC/ASI Joint Meeting The attached message came across as garbage to me. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 00:34:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: marketing blues I spent some time this morning on calls to publishers I would really love to work for. One, in a mid-west city, asked me what the average rate in this area (New England) is. When I answered what I felt was a representative and fairly respectable figure ($3-4/page), she said that they are able to contract locally at $1.75/page. Have you come up against this reaction? Any suggestions for responding? Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:13:27 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wolfgang Schapat Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience >It's one in the morning and I already have two replies! You folks gotta >get a life! :-) >Dick Hi Dick, I've no experience with indexing but with subcontracts. From the view of a german subcontractor you have accepted the work.If you find afterwards something bad you have to give back the work for correction. If this fails than you can do it for your self and than cut the paid hours for the time you needed. Regards WOlfgang from Germany Wolfgang Schapat ----------------------------------------------------------------- Ulmenweg 12, D-91325 Adelsdorf, Germany; Technical Writer on contracts (Measuring Techniques, Software); Voice: +49-(0)9195-4039; Fax: +49-(0)9195-7982; wolfgang.schapat@erlangen.netsurf.de; 100330.3046@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:01:28 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Water cooler chat: Hitting the wall In-Reply-To: <199706021747.KAA05183@dns1.mcn.org> Kat wrote: >I generally charge more for anything involving MS Word, for example, >especially for jobs where I'm expected to do illustrations, a complex index >(I'm pretty new at this), or comply with unusually arcane formatting >requirements. I bill those jobs strictly by the hour and put a table in my >proposal showing the estimated time required to do the various project >tasks using Word vs using some other method that I think is more >appropriate (PageMaker, FrameMaker, hire a specialist, whatever). I've missed most of this thread (my computer was shut down, happily, for a week) but I'd like to say that I define the Annoyance factor as that place where my efficiency and ingenuity have been hampered by requirements of the job. My view of professionalism is that I face the Annoyance factor and get the job done as best/fast as I can anyway. My hope as a freelancer is that I can increase my skills such that I can then afford to turn down Annoyance-factor work. Meanwhile, I do a fair amount of presorting through advertising--the text of my resume and of my listing in the ASI publication narrows down my clientele significantly. But I believe your method, with its example of just how an Annoyance factor might function, is a proactive technique. Thanks! Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:20:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Was Bad subcontract experience/now proofreading list Regarding the question of a proofreading list......I have been trying to start one for the past 6 months, but was not able to get people willing to volunteer some time to help with the project. As far as I know, there is no proofreading list at this time. And I have to stand up for members of Copyedit-L.....They are just as supportive and helpful as are members of this list. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Looking forward to a cold 4 days on Monhegan Island, since it looks as though this will be a cold week for early June in New England. Guess we'll need to pack long underwear. Sigh......) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:59:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: New Book on Names On May 24, Cynthia Bertelsen sent: Just wanted to share this with those who find foreign names to be a problem at times in indexing: Ingraham, Holly. People's Names: A Cross-Cultural Reference Guide to the Proper Use of Over 40,000 Personal and Familial Names in Over 100 Cultures. Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company, Inc., 1997. ISBN 00786401877. There is a wealth of information about name order, types of names, titles, familial relationships found in naming, day of the week inserted into names , etc. Also included are naming practices in certain historical periods. While the book is not 100% comprehensive because of its size (613 pages), it is a great resource for little known facts about naming practices in many cultures. These facts would be time-consuming to track down otherwise. There is a selective bibliography. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: marketing blues Barbara, You wrote: << ... she said that they are able to contract locally at $1.75/page. Have you come up against this reaction? Any suggestions for responding? >> I've had that happen many times. I would tell her that that is very low, even for the industry. Tell her that you are sure many of your colleagues wouldn't work for that figure, and neither would you. I would mention the ASI Salary Survey, which will back up your claims. This woman won't change her mind, as she obviously has a budget to work within, and it keeps her at this rate. So I wouldn't debate the issues too much. I just state my case and then end the conversation. [I recently heard from a colleague who was contacted by a major scientific publishing house and asked to do an index for what is truly a pathetic rate -- on high end math/physics material. This editor had contacted me years ago, offering this same low rate rate!! Amazing!! Still playing "that game." I had refused them, at the time. He refused them at this time .... and so it goes.] And then go back to marketing. The reasonable paying jobs are out there. You have to market hard to find them. And get to know people ... network like crazy ... because referrals are also important. Sign me ... been there, done that. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:13:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages With all this talk of indexer web pages, I'm wondering...has a web page ever actually brought in business for one of you? Just wondering, before I invest the time and money and energy and... Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:23:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In a message dated 97-06-02 19:53:59 EDT, you write: > > Does AOL provide you with any type of log so you can find out how many hits > your site gets at different times and how many connections were refused? > Just curious. > AOL provides only a number of hits record. And no CGI scripts. It's VERY basic stuff only. But hey, it's nearly free. You don't have to have your page in their format. I've had mine up there for well over a year, and didn't use their tools at all. It's fairly easy to just ftp your own pages up there - just ignore all their stuff and read about the ftp tools. Jan wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:04:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Editing changes while indexing In-Reply-To: <199705101411.AA29078@world.std.com> This is a running theme for me: noticing and identifying copyediting changes while indexing. I had one particular book last winter, for a publisher I've worked for many times, which had about 3 pages of editing inconsistencies and errors. The PE assured me she would take care of them and she appreciated my pointing them out. Now that same PE has hired me for a copyediting job (which is mostly what I do) and the example book she sent me was that book I indexed. So I looked up some of the editing changes and discovered that she only changed three: 2 misspelling of authors' names in the reference list and one typos in an A head. My reaction to this is mixed. I guess it's good that I told her about the changes so that she could fix the glaring errors. But I'm a bit disappointed she didn't fix the others. (I know, time and money.) But since they were making changes anyway, it wouldn't have taken that much longer to fix the other problems. Some of them were a bit obvious: "...using the strategic Vision to produce..." But the good side is that it got me a copyediting job for the next two weeks. I was about to call her and remind her of my existence anyway. I really prefer indexing.... Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:16:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Editing changes while indexing In a message dated 97-06-03 11:08:18 EDT, you write: << I guess it's good that I told her about the changes so that she could fix the glaring errors. But I'm a bit disappointed she didn't fix the others. (I know, time and money.) >> Often the publishers are charged by line, not by time, so it does become a game of what really needs to be fixed and what can be let go. It's a hard lesson to learn when you're the one making the decisions, but it's made me less distressed by what I see know as a freelancer:D Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:27:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KGarcia549@AOL.COM Subject: INDEX-L mail Dear Charlotte, I have not received any INDEX-L e-mail in the last two weeks. Please check and see that I am still an active INDEX-L member. Sincerely, Kathy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 08:38:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In-Reply-To: <970603101204_-763968508@emout15.mail.aol.com> On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 Pmauer@aol.com wrote: > With all this talk of indexer web pages, I'm wondering...has a web page ever > actually brought in business for one of you? Yup, I've gotten several really fun (not to mention well-paying) projects from folks who've found me via my web site. Not bad for a totally free "advert". I'd have the account anyway for email, and designing & maintaining the site is a breeze. Besides, when I see how many people have visited my site, I see how much educating I'm doing as well. Aside from the income it has brought, I'm thrilled that so many people are finding out more about indexing and indexers. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:39:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages So far, not directly (meaning no one goes to the page and instantly contacts me for work based just on that). Since my resume is on my page, though, it has been a help to point potential clients (those who call or email me requesting a resume) to the page when they need a resume or other information fast. This situation usually occurs when potential clients have been given my name as a referral. Most of my marketing is the traditional researching of publishers, with the books they produce mentioned in my cover letter, all sent along with a brochure, business card, and list of references. However, I forsee that Web pages will eventually be a strong marketing tool, so don't give up on them yet. At 10:13 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Peg Mauer wrote: >With all this talk of indexer web pages, I'm wondering...has a web page ever >actually brought in business for one of you? > >Just wondering, before I invest the time and money and energy and... > >Peg Mauer > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:18:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: marketing blues I live in the Midwest, and I can attest to the fact that indexers here are charging rates competitive with the coasts. In fact, I have heard of some publishers on the coasts offering less than publishers in the Midwest. I don't think this is a regional issue, it is an information issue. There are indexers working for substandard wages, and until low-paying editors run out of indexers willing to work for low rates, they will continue to pay low rates. The rest of us should ignore them (the editors and the indexers), in my opinion, and we should concentrate on what we do (reasonable rates, reasonable product quality)..... I'm not sure that someone looking for work can change the opinion of an editor willing to pay $1.75 per page, if that is what the press has been paying up til now. This is where local ASI chapters can have an effect--get these editors to some ASI meetings, get them to learn the difference between a bad index and a good index, and maybe then they will want to hire the better indexer regardless of price! Sttepping off the soapbox (momentarily) now... Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:47:05 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Subject: Re: Editing changes while indexing At 03:04 PM 6/3/97 +0000, you wrote: >This is a running theme for me: noticing and identifying copyediting >changes while indexing. I had one particular book last winter, for a >publisher I've worked for many times, which had about 3 pages of editing >inconsistencies and errors. The PE assured me she would take care of >them and she appreciated my pointing them out. Now that same PE has hired >me for a copyediting job (which is mostly what I do) and the example book >she sent me was that book I indexed. So I looked up some of the editing >changes and discovered that she only changed three: 2 misspelling of >authors' names in the reference list and one typos in an A head. Hiya Sarah-- The first time I did proofreading for a major publisher, I was told to indicate if discrepancies I found were compositor errors (not typesetting the ms exactly) or "our" errors (author or editor boo-boos). The publisher would not have to pay for the compositor errors to be reset. So you're probably right--those ol' bugaboos, time and money, may indeed determine which errors, however egregious, are resubmitted to the compositor. After all, by the time you have discovered them, the final pages have probably already been gone over by both proofreader and author. Another factor at play seems to be diminishing quality control in general among some publishing houses. In my experience, some PEs do not have an editorial background and a misplaced comma or wrongly capitalized word are just not big enough a deal to warrant the added expense of having them corrected. They are basically copy traffickers and can't worry bout the small editorial stuff. (Ultimately, it's the author who is responsible for that.) And where the indexer comes in--at the very tail-end of the book-making process--dealing with a few typos is really not worth the headache for some houses, unless the author is very on top of his/her project and very insistent. When I first started indexing ('waaay back in the golden daze before it became a corporate game for conglomerates to buy out publishing houses...yes, when my hair was still black!), I kept a running list of pages where I found typos or misspellings and submitted this to the editor along with my index. These were always received with thanks; but after realizing that a proofreader is hired to catch these mistakes,I rarely bring them to the attention of the PE unless it is something major--switched figure numbers, repeated text, or obviously out-of-place material. I finally decided-- though it goes against my editorial grain to leave errors uncorrected --that I have my hands (and gray noggin) full just with the indexing! I'm glad pointing out errors turned into another paid job for you, though! Regards, Sudsy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Embedded page counts: problems In-Reply-To: <199706022156.OAA15077@mx5.u.washington.edu> And some programs (Word97) are superior in the way they format pages. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:54:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience In-Reply-To: <199706022242.PAA26171@mx4.u.washington.edu> In which case you should chew butt (and pay). I misunderstood. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience In-Reply-To: <199706020408.XAA01113@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am certainly not going to hire her again, but should I: > >A. Just pay her, keep quiet, and not hire her again. >B. Pay her and explain why I'm not hiring her again. >C. Pay her. explain, and withhold three hours pay. >D. Other I would certainly explain to her why you're not hiring her again. She might not like hearing it, but it will give her an opportunity to clean up her act. As for the pay, I guess I'd want to know more about your subcontracting arrangement. Did you have a contract (either written or oral)? How much did you spell out what was expected? Did you ask her for the compiled indexes before putting in the 3 hrs. work? In other words, did you give her a chance to "make good" before you went ahead and did the clean-up yourself? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Didactic use of index In-Reply-To: <199706010408.XAA04978@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Of course, not putting the acronym into the 'see' reference will cause Cindex >to spit it out upon VERIFY as a non-match. Does that mean you just 'put up' >with this reminder or is there a way to shut it off? In the Cindex for the Mac, when you do a sort, you can tell the program to ignore text in parens. Then when you verify cross-refs, it won't see that situation as a non-nmatch. I assume there's some way to do the same thing in the DOS version? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:03:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Rules and specs7 In-Reply-To: <199706020408.XAA01113@mixcom.mixcom.com> >When it comes time to discuss certification of indexers again, I hope I can >remember to bring this up... If and when that time comes, I assume we will be able to submit our best work for consideration, not indexes we wrote "under protest." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:02:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: marketing blues In-Reply-To: <199706031620.JAA26866@mx2.u.washington.edu> Back in 1992 when I started freelancing, I had a billing dispute with a firm in NY City that was refusing to pay my bill of $2 per page (the price agreed to by the editor in a written contract) after the publisher decided the bill was too high. The all-time classic quote: "After all, we can get out-of-work actors to index for us at $8 an hour!" My response: "Then hire the actors. As a professional indexer, I don't work for hamburger-flipping wages." I didn't get any more work from that publisher, for obvious reasons. But I did get my fee after letting the editor know that the next contact would be from my attorney. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Barbara Cohen wrote: > There are > indexers working for substandard wages, and until low-paying editors run out > of indexers willing to work for low rates, they will continue to pay low > rates. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:38:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages At 03:18 PM 6/2/97 -0400, Kat Nagel/MasterWork wrote: >When I researched this with six different ISPs for my own site about 6 >months ago, I got similar quotes from most of them: a minimum of $36/month >for 2 Megs of commercial web space (one ISP wanted $300/month for this!), >max. 3 graphics/page (including navigation buttons!), and a single email >account. [Other good stuff snipped...] Kat, thanks so much for posting this information! While it's not specific to anybody else's providers' it gives a really good overview of costs and so forth. I really appreciate the information, as I am getting into web page design for several clients (and myself), and was really looking for some direction. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: marketing blues At 12:34 AM 6/3/97 -0400, Barbara Stroup wrote: >I spent some time this morning on calls to publishers I would really love to >work for. One, in a mid-west city, asked me what the average rate in this >area (New England) is. When I answered what I felt was a representative and >fairly respectable figure ($3-4/page), she said that they are able to >contract locally at $1.75/page. Have you come up against this reaction? Any >suggestions for responding? Barbara, there are only two or three "local" publishers in my area, and they are all very tiny. I have done occasional work for one of them, and get, yes, $1.50 a page! Of course, the indexing demands are very low for this work and it goes very quickly, so it's a nice "filler" between more serious jobs. The books are rarely longer than 200 pages, and the indexing requirements are very simple, so I don't feel I'm in competition with myself, so to speak. I would never accept that rate for anything approaching serious indexing work. Have you looked at the indexes produced by this company? Are they commensurate with a $1.75 per-page rate (i.e., pretty low-level)? If so, you might suggest that a better job is deserving of a higher fee. I might even take one of their books and index a few sample chapters and send them your version of the index to compare with what's already in the book. If, OTOH, the indexes they are getting are swell, then they've found a goose or two who lays golden eggs on demand and you can't very well compete with THAT. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: marketing blues At 12:18 PM 6/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >I live in the Midwest, and I can attest to the fact that indexers here are >charging rates competitive with the coasts. In fact, I have heard of some >publishers on the coasts offering less than publishers in the Midwest. I >don't think this is a regional issue, ... Alot of good stuff snipped... Isn't it also possible that the indexer (sorry, lost your name) was being lied to as part of a hardball haggling strategy? Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: marketing blues On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Barbara Cohen wrote: << There are indexers working for substandard wages, and until low-paying editors run out of indexers willing to work for low rates, they will continue to pay low rates. >> and Carolyn Weaver wrote: << Back in 1992 when I started freelancing, I had a billing dispute with a firm in NY City that was refusing to pay my bill of $2 per page (the price agreed to by the editor in a written contract) after the publisher decided the bill was too high. The all-time classic quote: "After all, we can get out-of-work actors to index for us at $8 an hour!" My response: "Then hire the actors. As a professional indexer, I don't work for hamburger-flipping wages." >> You may also be dealing with publishers who aren't used to the differences between in-house and freelance rates. As an in-house indexer, my base salary in *considerably* less than what I'd earn as a freelancer... but I also have a nice benefits package that compensates (well, somewhat ) for the salary discrepancy. You might bring that up in your salary negotiations to help justify your rates. What is considered substandard wages for contracted indexes is not necessarily substandard for in-house or salaried staff. Our base salaries may average out to lower per-hour or per-page rates, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we are less professional than our freelance counterparts. Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In a message dated 97-06-03 11:38:46 EDT, you write: > I'm wondering...has a web page ever > actually brought in business for one of you? Good question. The only kind of cold inquiries it has actually brought me are from strange Internet/Web-happy psuedo-businesses that have vast ideas but no money up front. "We are going to index the entire web, can you help? We are creating the vastest biggest collection of business addresses on the Web, and we think you can help." Not for free, no thanks. But, the best thing about the web page is that I can refer my potential clients to it. It's more immediately available than my printed resume is. It lists the names of some of my bigger clients. People can get an idea of my services. A lot of potential (and thereafter sometimes for real) clients check it out after talking to me, or before, if they have been referred to me by someone else. I have a counter on it, and it has had over 700 hits, which isn't much, compared to the ASI web site. But the way I look at it, that's perhaps 500 people who have looked at the equivalent of a brochure on indexing services. That's a nice idea. The other 200 are probably search engines or other indexers or such. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Rules and specs7 << If and when that time comes [for indexer certification], I assume we will be able to submit our best work for consideration, not indexes we wrote "under protest." >> Yikes. I hope so too... I have a few "under protest" and "rush job" indexes that I'd rather not have anyone analyze too closely! I'm afraid I missed the beginning of this thread. Would indexers submit samples of their work to be considered for certification? Or would there be additional requirements (course work, equivalent work experience, certification tests)? Sorry to have missed the details on this... I'm very interested in possible standards for indexer certification. Thanks, Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:21:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: taxes and Indexer Web pages In-Reply-To: <199706030413.XAA00626@mixcom.mixcom.com> >If you have a business web page via your personal ISP account, can you >deduct part or all of the monthly fees as advertising expense? If so, how >do you describe it? Just as "advertising"? > My accountant has me list my whole Net provider fee (which includes my Web page) under "office expenses." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:06:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Re[2]: Rules and specs7 And what would happen to database indexers if we had to get certified? On Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:07:42 -0500 Erika Millen writes: > << If and when that time comes [for indexer certification], I > assume we will be able to submit our best work for consideration, > not indexes we wrote "under protest." >> > > Yikes. I hope so too... I have a few "under protest" and "rush job" > indexes that I'd rather not have anyone analyze too closely! > > I'm afraid I missed the beginning of this thread. Would indexers > submit samples of their work to be considered for certification? Or > would there be additional requirements (course work, equivalent work > experience, certification tests)? > > Sorry to have missed the details on this... I'm very interested in > possible standards for indexer certification. > > Thanks, > > Erika Millen > Macmillan Publishing > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:26:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages At 08:38 AM 6/3/97 -0700, Kari Bero wrote: > >Yup, I've gotten several really fun (not to mention well-paying) projects >from folks who've found me via my web site. Not bad for a totally free >"advert". I'd have the account anyway for email . . . Hello Kari, et al.-- I've resurfaced recently after coming back from seeing my mom through her last days and then taking some time off for retreat in the wilderness. How our time flies! -- right up to the final deadline. Sounds like you've got a sweet web page deal, Kari -- one of those free web page services Kamm Schreiner alluded to. Is this really true? -- a web page free with an e-mail account? If so, how did you find it? Regards to everyone, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages In-Reply-To: <199706032026.NAA03798@nccn.net> Ooops, sorry to mislead anyone. No, my account isn't through a freenet. There is a local freenet in Seattle, but it is an email account only, and I need much more than that... I consider the site "free", because I don't have to pay _extra_ for it. It is just space that I paid my Internet Provider for. My account through them is a certain amount of space on their server, and the tools accible to me are FTP, gopher, web, email, etc. My provider knows that space on their server, is space on their server. Whether I use it to store files (of any kind) or images or sounds, makes no difference. Whether my site is commercial or educational or personal also doesn't affect them. Space is space, bits is bits. ;-) So, I have an account & store my site there. I pay a certain rate no matter how many of the tools I use or how many hours I'm connected. Now, if my page grew a _lot_, I'd need to purchase more space, and pay more. But web pages (which are tiny) take up very little space, so I don't see that happening. I use few images, so they don't hog space either. So, when I said "free", I meant that it costs me no more than I'd be paying for this account anyway. Some providers take a ride on current trends and charge more money for using popular tools. Mine doesn't. Hope that helps clarify things. 8-) -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Michael Brackney wrote: > At 08:38 AM 6/3/97 -0700, Kari Bero wrote: > > > >Yup, I've gotten several really fun (not to mention well-paying) projects > >from folks who've found me via my web site. Not bad for a totally free > >"advert". I'd have the account anyway for email . . . > > Hello Kari, et al.-- > > I've resurfaced recently after coming back from seeing my mom through her > last days and then taking some time off for retreat in the wilderness. How > our time flies! -- right up to the final deadline. > > Sounds like you've got a sweet web page deal, Kari -- one of those free web > page services Kamm Schreiner alluded to. Is this really true? -- a web page > free with an e-mail account? If so, how did you find it? > > Regards to everyone, > > Michael > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 916-272-7088 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:58:34 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Indexer Certification Databasers (or periodical databasers) are certified by the databases/contractors we work for. If we couldn't follow the specifications of the controlled vocabulary and term relationships, we wouldn't be working. Here is one clear difference between BOB and databases - that we have continuity in our work, and over the long haul our effective indexing and consistency ensures we keep working for the same contracts. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:50:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Editing charges Re proofreading and editing while indexing, last year I charged an hourly rate for reporting errors in and making editing recommendations for a book I indexed. In the early stages of indexing I freely reported a number of errors, and the editor expressed his gratitude to me for this. As the number of errors steadily mounted, however, I realized that I needed to charge for all the valuable proofreading and editing service I was giving. Therefore I said this to the editor and asked him if he wanted me to continue doing this work for him at my hourly rate. He said "Yes", and paid me. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:35:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Doug Williams Subject: Web Sites Nancy, I'd say it's time to begin looking for another ISP. Sounds like your provider is scrounging for bucks if they're bothering to look for "commercial" sites on subscribers' home pages. What matters is the traffic to the site and the amount of storage there, not whether your resume is posted. My provider would lose half of their accounts if they tried to do this. This is a competitive business, and in my area (Chicago suburbs) I have at least 6 providers to choose from. If you get a new ISP you'll get a new address, which is a hassle, unless you have your own domain (like kensa.com), which goes wherever you go. Doug Williams Kensa Software >Hi, > >In the last 24 hours I was informed by my ISP that my "personal web page" >was a "commercial" site & therefore I was expected to pay triple my monthly >charges for ISP services. Since my site was primarily an annotated listing >of links with my resume tacked on as a separate page, I couldn't justify the >added expense. > >In the e-mail I received I was told I could retain a personal page if I >removed mention of "services" for which there is a price. This morning I >deleted the resume from my directory & removed the link to it on my home page. > >My question is how others who have home pages describing indexing deal with >this issue? Do your ISPs have clear policies about when a site crosses the >line from "personal" to "commericial? > >Thanks, >Nancy Guenther >nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:53:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Possible certification requirements Erika Millen asked, re indexer certification: >>Would indexers >> submit samples of their work to be considered for certification? Or >> would there be additional requirements (course work, equivalent work >> experience, certification tests)? I attended the roundtable on certification at the ASI conference and this issue came up. There's no obvious right answer but of course everyone has ideas and opinions. There could be multiple 'routes' to certification. I'm interested in hearing the opinions of Index-ellers. And can anyone from the Society of Indexers tell us about their requirements for indexers to become Registered Indexers? Also, as mentioned, I believe there would need to be different criteria for back-of-the-book indexes and 'closed indexes' (periodicals and databases) if in fact, there would be certification for the latter. I read the list in digest mode so if this discussion has already started, sorry for being redundant! Regards, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:07:05 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Web Sites In-Reply-To: <199706040536.WAA12074@darkwing.uoregon.edu> On June 3, Doug wrote > >If you get a new ISP you'll get a new address, which is a hassle, unless >you have your own domain (like kensa.com), which goes wherever you go. How does one do this, Doug? I like it. ******************************************************* Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Indexes for books in philosophy, cultural and physical anthropology, linguistics, religions, women's studies, and current culture. ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:19:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Possible certification requirements - clarification I wrote in my previous post: >Also, as mentioned, I believe there would need to be different criteria for back-of-the->book indexes and 'closed indexes' (periodicals and databases) if in fact, there would >be certification for the latter. I should have written 'open indexes' instead of closed (these are terms I learned from Susan Klements in a class on periodical indexing.) I was thinking of controlled vocabulary and 'closed' made sense, but actually in Susan's terms, book indexes are 'closed' (limited to the scope of the book) and indexes that continue over time to add new indexed material are 'open'. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:55:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: marketing blues Erika wrote: > >You may also be dealing with publishers who aren't used to the differences >between in-house and freelance rates. As an in-house indexer, my base salary in >*considerably* less than what I'd earn as a freelancer... but I also have a >nice benefits package that compensates (well, somewhat ) for the salary >discrepancy. You might bring that up in your salary negotiations to help >justify your rates. The "rule of thumb" for in-house work is that benefits are worth at least one-third on top of wages. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:22:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Indexer Certification Suellen Kasoff wrote: >And what would happen to database indexers if we had to get certified? a. I don't think it likely that anyone will 'have to' get certified. b. Back-of-the-book indexing and serial indexing certification programs would not affect database indexers, and vice versa. In other words, any rational certification program must be specific to a specialty; parties interested in each specialty must decide whether to put forth the time and energy to develop and run a program. "S. Greenhouse" wrote: >Databasers (or periodical databasers) are certified by the >databases/contractors we work for. If we couldn't follow the >specifications of the controlled vocabulary and term relationships, we >wouldn't be working. Here is one clear difference between BOB and >databases - that we have continuity in our work, and over the long haul >our effective indexing and consistency ensures we keep working for the >same contracts. So, database companies and indexers may or may not be interested in formal certification, anyway. c. Indexer certification was the topic of a lunchtime roundtable at the ASI conference in Winston-Salem in May. The discussion brought out many issues and alternatives in establishing certification as an ASI-sponsored program. One thing I learned is that there are models of certification in other professions with traits in common with indexing; these can be studied. The obvious traditional professions of physician, lawyer, architect and others where licensure is required are not appropriate models; voluntary certification does not imply any kind of licensure or exclusion. This is the reason for my comment in point a. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:14:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Editing charges Michael, If you did the error reporting/editing recommendations while you were indexing, how did you determine how many hours were spent on that as distinguished from the indexing, and what kind of hourly rate did you charge? For example, did it simply add to the time, and you charged your usual indexing rate? Or did you increase your usual rate to account for the extra effort? Or did you separate the time, and charge an editing rate? ---- Michael Brackney wrote: > > Re proofreading and editing while indexing, last year I charged an hourly > rate for reporting errors in and making editing recommendations for a book I > indexed. In the early stages of indexing I freely reported a number of > errors, and the editor expressed his gratitude to me for this. As the > number of errors steadily mounted, however, I realized that I needed to > charge for all the valuable proofreading and editing service I was giving. > Therefore I said this to the editor and asked him if he wanted me to > continue doing this work for him at my hourly rate. He said "Yes", and paid me. > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:37:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Indexer Web pages My ISP (AT&T WorldNet Service) has just in the last few days offered personal web pages for the first time. Considering other people's comments, it sounds like a bargain ($1.95 per month), permits "professional information" (although I have not tried to pin down exactly what that means, such as whether you can advertise your business), and lets you create your own Web page. I do not know more than what follows in excepts from the announcement, at http://home.att.net/faqs (sorry, I don't yet know how to include a link directly in my email). Joel Excerpts from the announcement: AT&T WorldNet Service Personal Web Pages will enable members to create and publish their own Web pages on AT&T WorldNet server(s), which can then be viewed by AT&T WorldNet members and Internet users. A personal Web page is your presence on the Internet, and can include personal or professional information, your interests, graphics, and links to other Internet sites. Members with no prior Internet experience or knowledge of HTML can easily publish using the templates provided. Users experienced with authoring tools may publish a Web page they have created using our FTP upload tool. The Personal Web Pages feature will cost you $1.95/month for 2 megabytes of storage space on our servers and full use of the publishing tools and functionalities offered. This monthly charge will be in addition to the monthly fee (on the Unlimited or Hourly Pricing Plan) you are now paying for the AT&T WorldNet ServiceSM and any 800-number or other telephone access charges and related taxes you may be paying. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:10:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Disability Insurance One of my projects upon returning from my weekend is to check into disability insurance. I was wondering how many on the list actually have disability insurance. If you do, do you have any advice for someone considering it for the first time? I've gotten more familiar with health insurance plans in the past year, but know very little about disability insurance. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Packing for a cold weekend on Monhegan Island off the Maine Coast. Now I only have to worry about having 13 others (who come from all over New England) show up in Port Clyde, Maine, in time to purchase tickets for the ferry to Monhegan Island. At least getting up early tomorrow morning wont be so bad, since it'll be for fun.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:13:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andy Carroll Subject: Mac/Win Word indexes Does anyone have any experience converting MS Word files with embedded indexing tags from Mac to PC? I've been offered an indexing job using embedded indexing codes in Word, but the publisher works on PCs with Word97, and I'm on a Mac. I've been expecting to have to get a recent version of Word, but if I can't easily convert a document with index codes from my Mac to Windows, then I can put it off for a while longer. Anyone have suggestions, comments, or horror stories? Andy ______________________________________________ Andy Carroll acarroll@web.net freelance editor Vancouver, Canada ______________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 23:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: publishing stats Esteemed colleagues: These come from a 6/1/97 AP story: Thirty-five percent worth of adult hard-cover books shipped to retailers last year were returned to the publishers for credit, up from 32 % in 1995. Bookstores are one of the few retail pursuits in which the sellor can ask for refunds if the product isn't a hit, transferring the loss to the publishers, who destroy the returns and absorb the production, promotion and shipping costs. Because the superchains keep growing, but also take advantage of this liberal return policy, publishers are in the unattractive position of needing more product for fewer sales. Adult hardcover sales increased only 1.8% in 1996, while the superchains have been responsible for a glut of shelf space to fill. The poor independent bookseller, who can cater to customer needs and who sells 80% of what they order, is being driven out of business. I know this last is not news to anyone and that we were eloquently reminded of the independents' plight last year by the representative from the Tattered Cover in Denver: here in the Connecticut valley the independents who have provided us with terrific service and wonderful browsing for decades are being driven out of business as the monoliths creep closer. (But I confess that I find it difficult to resist the lure of the CD department and the Starbucks coffeebar at Barnes and Noble myself, let alone the ease of shopping that Amazon.com provides.) And further, "Harper Collins....folded Basic Books, its well-regarded public affairs imprint, into its trade group, eliminating a *dozen* editorial positions. Scholastic Inc, and Addison Wesley Longman Inc. are among the other publishers that have had recent layoffs. Many houses are pruning the overall number of titles they publish: Simon and Schuster...has 600 books coming out this year, down from 650 last year. Publishers are also looking to shave costs by using less expensive paper and eliminating full-cloth covers." And professional level indexing??????? This all makes me a little glum tonight! Barbara Stroup ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 02:05:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Larry E. Edmonson" Subject: publishing stats aka Hollywood risks come to publishing Barbara Stroup mentions a 6/1/97 AP story on bookstore returns of 35% of adult hard-cover books last year. The AP story probably had its genisis in a 5/29 Wall Street Journal item attributing some of the recent changes in publishing primarily to the impact of book superstores. It sees the presence of superstores as producing a "Hollywood-style approach" in which books that don't open big are quickly abandoned. The chairman of Penguin Group (who used to run Disney's Hollywood Pictures) is quoted as saying "You don't build books anymore....It's [publishing] has become the equivalent of blasting [a movie] out over 2,600 screens." Publishers are being forced to do enormous press runs in order to be taken seriously by the superstores. This means big publishers must focus on "event" books and shun most anything else. The responses I obtained when I mentioned this story on a professional writers list were disconcerting to say the least. The most useful response (that we are returning to the oral tradition of telling stories around a campfire) doesn't bear close scrutiny. Pogo probably had it right when he said something like "I have met the enemy and he/she is us." Isn't what's happening in publishing merely a minor reflection of our society and its "values." ["Values" placed in quotes to indicate its status as knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.] Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 01:54:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Editing charges At 06:14 PM 6/4/97 -0700, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Michael, > >If you did the error reporting/editing recommendations while you were >indexing, how did you determine how many hours were spent on that as >distinguished from the indexing, and what kind of hourly rate did you >charge? For example, did it simply add to the time, and you charged >your usual indexing rate? Or did you increase your usual rate to >account for the extra effort? Or did you separate the time, and charge >an editing rate? > Joel: I estimated my time conservatively and charged my usual indexing rate. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:55:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: publishing stats Barbara and all, On the flip side, there is an interesting article in the latest Publishers Weekly (June 2, 1997, pp. 42-44) on university presses and the niche they can fill in view of what is happening with trade publishers. Because they are non-profit and are seeking more in the way of endowments/fund raising, university presses are not always constrained by the same financial concerns as are trade publishers. The article is based on interviews with a number of directors of university presses. (Another issue that the article alludes to is the fact that library acquisitions budgets are generally down, with the impact that has on all publishers.) Basically, the university presses see themselves as taking over in some of the areas in which the trades are losing out, in "quality midlist fiction and nonfiction." BTW, AAUP is having its annual meeting in Indianapolis, June 14-17, and will also be having another meeting in Washington, DC in the fall (where publishers, scholars, and librarians will be discussing "the fate of the scholarly monograph, so often given up for dead."). According to the article, apparently many of the senior directors of university presses will be at the meetings in Indianapolis. Marketing opportunities, no, if you live in the area? I also want to mention that an editor at Simon & Schuster told me that they generally have in-house copyeditors do their indexes and that this is true of many of the bigger trade publishers. So perhaps all is not lost. At 11:29 PM 6/4/97 -0400, Barbara Stroup wrote: >Esteemed colleagues: > >These come from a 6/1/97 AP story: Thirty-five percent worth of adult >hard-cover books shipped to retailers last year were returned to the >publishers for credit, up from 32 % in 1995. >This all makes me a little glum tonight! > >Barbara Stroup > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:55:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Mac/Win Word indexes Andy Carroll writes: << Does anyone have any experience converting MS Word files with embedded indexing tags from Mac to PC? I've been offered an indexing job using embedded indexing codes in Word, but the publisher works on PCs with Word97, and I'm on a Mac. I've been expecting to have to get a recent version of Word, but if I can't easily convert a document with index codes from my Mac to Windows, then I can put it off for a while longer. Anyone have suggestions, comments, or horror stories? >> Do you have a PowerMac? If you do, then it's no problem at all... just use a PC-formatted disk, save as the default Word Document option (do *NOT* save as "Word x for Windows" -- that will strip out the indexing codes!), and the file will open right up on a PC. Word is virtually identical on PCs and Macs, so the codes transfer with no problems at all. We use embedded indexing codes in Word, and I know we have one freelancer who indexes on Word for the Mac and then e-mails us the completed chapters. If you have an older Mac (not a PowerMac), then I'm not sure how well the codes transfer. If you want, e-mail me a test file with a handful of test codes and I'll try opening it on my PC. I'm still using Word 6/Word 7, though, so I can't help much with the Word97 compatibility issues. Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:51:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Herr Hallinger Organization: Herr's Indexing Service Subject: New book on names I believe that the correct ISBN for the Ingraham book is 0786401877 (it does not begin with 00). Also, when I tried to order it locally through 2 different stores, they both told me I would have to order it directly from the publisher. The phone number for McFarland is 800-253-2187. I believe the book costs about $65.00 (plus shipping). I did order it, but have not yet received it. Linda ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: publishing stats << I also want to mention that an editor at Simon & Schuster told me that they generally have in-house copyeditors do their indexes and that this is true of many of the bigger trade publishers. >> I don't know about Simon & Schuster in New York, but here in Indy the indexes are prepared by in-house indexers or freelanced out. Production editors and proofreaders then read them for content/style... our copy editors never see the final index. Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing, Indianapolis (a division of Simon & Schuster) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:12:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexer Certification Whether back-of-book or database, indexer certification would be a great continuing education program primarily of interest to the indexer. I don't think clients in the US are that particular about whom they hire as freelancers. Bottom-line budgets seem to be the controlling factor, and getting the most/best work for as little payout as possible is the hardball game. Corporate recruitment may be another matter, where "pieces of paper" at least let potential job candidates get their big toe in the door. Because experience often translates into higher entry salaries, the bottom line favors someone willing to learn as they go. Willingness to gain certification might be the prime hiring factor. Larry Harrison's comment about certification specificity applies equally to BOB and DB indexers. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Job Opportunity for a Database Indexer in NYC Dear Fellow Index-Lers: Here's a job listing that appeared on a library jobs listserv. I don't recall seeing it posted here, so I am forwarding it to our list. Hope this doesn't violate Netiquette. Jean Thompson ****************Forwarded Message Follows**************************** From: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" "Library and Information Science jobs mailing list" 4-JUN-1997 15:48:30.45 To: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" CC: Subj: POSITION AVAILABLE Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:57:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Debra Brown-Spruil Subject: POSITION AVAILABLE Sender: Library and Information Science jobs mailing list This position has been cross-posted to several lists. Please forgive the duplication. PAIS--Public Affairs Information Service, Inc., publishers of bibliographic and full-text databases, is seeking to fill an indexer/abstracter position. This position requires experience with indexing, abstracting, editing, and database searching. Knowledge of word-processing is a plus. The applicant should be fluent in English with language skills in either Spanish, French, or German. An MLS degree is required with background in the social sciences, political science, or international affairs. Beginning salary $30,000 PAIS is a not-for-profit educational corporation with excellent health and fringe benefits. PAIS is an equal opportunity employer. The PAIS office is located in Manhattan. Resumes should be forwarded to: C. Korvin, Editor, PAIS, 521 W. 43rd Street, New York, NY 10036-4396 or faxed to 212-643-2848 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:42:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Wurster Subject: Rates for Book Indexing Hi, Could anyone tell me what the going rate is for indexing a 200-300 page book? What details are important to know when estimating the cost for indexing, a book? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:47:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New book on names Linda, My local bookstore ordered Ingraham's book for me, at the price you quoted. Such ordering may depend on the store's policy rather than the publisher's. Going beyond their book jobber could cost the customer extra (a "special" order) or be a non-supported service of the store. Cultivating local shops vs national superstores will help all of us retain value. The Hollywood approach to publishing/distributing focuses on cost, not value. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:53:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: publishing stats aka Hollywood risks come to publishing At 02:05 AM 6/5/97 -0400, you wrote: >Barbara Stroup mentions a 6/1/97 AP story on bookstore returns of 35% of adult >hard-cover books last year... Snippage... >The responses I obtained when I mentioned this story on a professional >writers list were disconcerting to say the least. The most useful response >(that we are returning to the oral tradition of telling stories around a >campfire) doesn't bear close scrutiny. Pogo probably had it right when he >said something like "I have met the enemy and he/she is us." Isn't what's >happening in publishing merely a minor reflection of our society and its >"values." ["Values" placed in quotes to indicate its status as knowing the >cost of everything and the value of nothing.] > >Larry Edmonson I still work in the library trenches and earlier this week, a cow-orker passed around the "WSJ" article in our department. Here in metro St. Louis, Paul's Books, one of the best indies in town, shut down not too long ago... And not too long after a huge, honking Barnes and Noble opened up off of Ladue Road. I used to like the B&N on Fifth Avenue when I lived in New York. This one, however, I find devoid of charm or competent help--and I'd just as soon buy my cuppa coffee at the 'Bread Company'. All consumer griping aside, this trend towards superstores full of vacuous best sellers, when added to the devastation of the US Gov't Printing Office, is beginning to look ominous. Apologists say that desktop publishing and the 'Net will fill in our gaps. How many around here agree with this? Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:57:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane L Morey Subject: Re: Job Opportunity for a Database Indexer in NYC Jean, Do you have the subscription info for that LIBJOBS list handy? TIA Lee Morey dmorey@gpo.gov Electronic Transition Staff, U.S. G.P.O. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:26:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Rates for Book Indexing In-Reply-To: <199706051443.AA23525@world.std.com> On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Sue Wurster wrote: > Hi, > > Could anyone tell me what the going rate is for indexing a 200-300 page > book? > > What details are important to know when estimating the cost for indexing, > a book? > $3-$4 per page, although some publishers only pay $2.50/page. I wouldn't accept less than $2.50/per page unless you're just starting out and looking for experience. Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: New book on names I ordered it from amazon.com. At 08:51 AM 6/5/97 -0700, Linda Herr Hallinger wrote: >I believe that the correct ISBN for the Ingraham book is 0786401877 (it >does not begin with 00). Also, when I tried to order it locally through >2 different stores, they both told me I would have to order it directly >from the publisher. The phone number for McFarland is 800-253-2187. I >believe the book costs about $65.00 (plus shipping). I did order it, but >have not yet received it. > > Linda > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:35:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Mac/Win Word indexes In a message dated 97-06-05 01:19:44 EDT, you write: > > I've been offered an indexing job using embedded indexing codes in Word, > but the publisher works on PCs with Word97, and I'm on a Mac. I've been > expecting to have to get a recent version of Word, but if I can't easily > convert a document with index codes from my Mac to Windows, then I can > put it off for a while longer. Anyone have suggestions, comments, or > horror stories? > You should be able to convert fine from Word97 to Mac Word version 6.0 and above. Prior to 6.0, Word uses a different indexing system on the Mac, and you would have to get a special conversion driver to do it. Have the publisher save the files as Mac Word 6.0. Now when they do that, they may want to test and reopen the files to make sure they have not lost any page layout stuff, such as anchored text moving elsewhere or tables being messed up. Far as I know, it should be okay, but a test would be in order. The easiest way is to have them send you a file saved as as Mac Word, you open it, put in some index entries, and save it as Word for windows. You send it back and have them see if the file looks okay to them. PS, save your Mac 5.1 or earlier - I think it is more robust and crashes less than the later versions. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "\"\" Subject: PC index software In-Reply-To: <199706051536.LAA16078@zns.net> Does anyone know what the most popular/functional index software is for the PC/UNIX. Thanks, John Dooley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:20:08 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Re: Database Indexer Hello all; As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my "free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences and/or similarities in these types of indexing? I appreciate your assistance, Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:53:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Database Indexer ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. Could = you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on the = topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn = medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing = Course. Thanks. Maxine M. Okazaki mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ---------- From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Database Indexer Hello all; As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my "free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences and/or similarities in these types of indexing? I appreciate your assistance, Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5D Qy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAASU5ERVgt TEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHQAA ACdJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cCcAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpJTkRFWC1M QEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA AAAD8T4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRh YmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAPUGAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGAAUADAA1ACgABABMAQEggAMADgAAAM0HBgAFAAwA MAAfAAQAPgEBCYABACEAAABCOTdBNDVFMEEwREREMDExOUJEQTAwMjBBRkQzMjQ1RgBBBwEDkAYA bAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBA4SgF0XG8AR4AcAAB AAAAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRhYmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8cdEFKOBFerrdoBHQ m9oAIK/TJF8AAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAYAAAAbW9rYXpha2lAYWNwdWIu ZHVrZS5lZHUAAwAGEBftQn4DAAcQCgMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJRVZFUllPTkVJTUFMU09BTkVX QklFSU5URVJFU1RFRElOREFUQUJBU0VJTkRFWElOR0NPVUxEWU9VUExFQVNFUE9TVFlPVVJSRVNQ T05TRVNUT1RIRUxJU1Q/QUxTTyxXSEkAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADwAwAA7AMAAKMGAABMWkZ1zHLCEP8A CgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMC gH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFEFC/JjAEAgSGkgZQp2BJB5AiBlLiAg kEknbSAHQHNvHADSIBuAd2IIkCALgBPQixYQE8FkHOEgZGEBka5hEbAc4Q2weAuAZxuhTQhRbB2A G2B1IAtQZfkeInBvE8AfYgXAHTEgIEsAgAeRdBxAdGgc0GwpBAB0PxuwQRwhLCDsd2gDEBzQdxzQ CsAc0EcCICGDIWBwaWMjYGb1Hc9nIoBjA5EAcBtiILGNBaBtB4AecCBobwfgvkklkB8jH8EEoQeA ZCQQvwdAJG8e0hvQGzAnQW0fsQMdYiGSVVNEQSBCex4gJBFJHnUfAhGhG6FUYRGAbmtzLgqFCoVN FmEeoRzQTRugT2thcHpha2kKhQRgLtRAAQDQcHViLmR1azsbkAmAdS1MCvQh0DE4gjAC0WktMTQ0 DfDnDNAy8wtZMTYKoANgE9D6YwVALTUXCoczywwwNJY6RgNhOjYeNJYMgiBKGQdwIFcDEBwwbltT IE1UUDpqB3B3QABNQUlMLlRSQQBOU1BPUlQuQ/hPTV01vzbNBmACMDf/LzkLLNAsYSiQeSKASnUJ JiEwNSKAMTk5N9ggNDoB0BSwTTxfNs2sVG8+nzkLTR8wdAUg/yLRJlEFIAiQAjAEICRBIdKBG8BO REVYLUxCbzs9bjBgajTRRI85C1JlfUsARCimK7MEkDEfMiMzjjYzlxpFNJZIZWwVoLccAQJwLUxB BCAnMGEb8f8cdiFlHmYikAWwH0AigBvSvGdvLAIhYiAwR4F1BUD0bXkKhSIDUAngJ0Ig8d4iUXIn ACwCHGBxClATwH5pI3MooB9jGzBHcQDAeS4gEbAjEQQgJwRwZCecID8tTCcwWlJtdRFw5SCxZh0h bmNTkyifWbD9LSAgBuAvsB5bAHAKhRww/weAJhIgIBzxKAEhUhxgAJBBE9AvZG9jdSahdI4vFhAg IAAgKD8pG7D7KDAE8HUEECwCKDAN0Fz0ZnMKhQBwZC8FsQCQbf8DEArAYgAIkAQgHaEhkR4xeHR5 cAeRJEEeZlsvYf5wE1BHASigHNAgcx4gAJD3E8AAcF0wLC1MOdFraDoFsyKAOtN0cgBxYvIuJnG/ CoVM4AeABtAEkCKAdFSwnyKQA2AZEAQgYkBuJ1Zhxy8AIxEgsGlnaG4AcTD9CoViVlEhkFcyH8AB gG/yfiEtTE6fT680pQqFFTEAAXcgAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzAgSOFM0HG8AUAACDAgSOFM 0HG8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAASYk= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:49:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Mac/Win Word indexes In-Reply-To: <199706050313.UAA20033@mx5.u.washington.edu> When I converted Mac Word index entries to PC Word index entries I spent weeks cleaning up the problems. Maybe the converters they use now (this was 5 years ago) are better but I have found problems even going from Word 6.0 to other PC Word versions (2.0 for Windows), so I doubt it. Charge by the hour on this one. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Perez Subject: Re[2]: Database Indexer Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn is by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent start. For most databases, the indexer applies a controlled vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical journals). Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to brush up on your writing skills. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Database Indexer Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. Could = you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on the = topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn = medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing = Course. Thanks. Maxine M. Okazaki mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ---------- From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Database Indexer Hello all; As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my "free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences and/or similarities in these types of indexing? I appreciate your assistance, Jim Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IioQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5D Qy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAASU5ERVgt TEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHQAA ACdJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cCcAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpJTkRFWC1M QEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA AAAD8T4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRh YmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAPUGAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGAAUADAA1ACgABABMAQEggAMADgAAAM0HBgAFAAwA MAAfAAQAPgEBCYABACEAAABCOTdBNDVFMEEwREREMDExOUJEQTAwMjBBRkQzMjQ1RgBBBwEDkAYA bAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBA4SgF0XG8AR4AcAAB AAAAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRhYmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8cdEFKOBFerrdoBHQ m9oAIK/TJF8AAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAYAAAAbW9rYXpha2lAYWNwdWIu ZHVrZS5lZHUAAwAGEBftQn4DAAcQCgMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJRVZFUllPTkVJTUFMU09BTkVX QklFSU5URVJFU1RFRElOREFUQUJBU0VJTkRFWElOR0NPVUxEWU9VUExFQVNFUE9TVFlPVVJSRVNQ T05TRVNUT1RIRUxJU1Q/QUxTTyxXSEkAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADwAwAA7AMAAKMGAABMWkZ1zHLCEP8A CgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMC gH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFEFC/JjAEAgSGkgZQp2BJB5AiBlLiAg kEknbSAHQHNvHADSIBuAd2IIkCALgBPQixYQE8FkHOEgZGEBka5hEbAc4Q2weAuAZxuhTQhRbB2A G2B1IAtQZfkeInBvE8AfYgXAHTEgIEsAgAeRdBxAdGgc0GwpBAB0PxuwQRwhLCDsd2gDEBzQdxzQ CsAc0EcCICGDIWBwaWMjYGb1Hc9nIoBjA5EAcBtiILGNBaBtB4AecCBobwfgvkklkB8jH8EEoQeA ZCQQvwdAJG8e0hvQGzAnQW0fsQMdYiGSVVNEQSBCex4gJBFJHnUfAhGhG6FUYRGAbmtzLgqFCoVN FmEeoRzQTRugT2thcHpha2kKhQRgLtRAAQDQcHViLmR1azsbkAmAdS1MCvQh0DE4gjAC0WktMTQ0 DfDnDNAy8wtZMTYKoANgE9D6YwVALTUXCoczywwwNJY6RgNhOjYeNJYMgiBKGQdwIFcDEBwwbltT IE1UUDpqB3B3QABNQUlMLlRSQQBOU1BPUlQuQ/hPTV01vzbNBmACMDf/LzkLLNAsYSiQeSKASnUJ JiEwNSKAMTk5N9ggNDoB0BSwTTxfNs2sVG8+nzkLTR8wdAUg/yLRJlEFIAiQAjAEICRBIdKBG8BO REVYLUxCbzs9bjBgajTRRI85C1JlfUsARCimK7MEkDEfMiMzjjYzlxpFNJZIZWwVoLccAQJwLUxB BCAnMGEb8f8cdiFlHmYikAWwH0AigBvSvGdvLAIhYiAwR4F1BUD0bXkKhSIDUAngJ0Ig8d4iUXIn ACwCHGBxClATwH5pI3MooB9jGzBHcQDAeS4gEbAjEQQgJwRwZCecID8tTCcwWlJtdRFw5SCxZh0h bmNTkyifWbD9LSAgBuAvsB5bAHAKhRww/weAJhIgIBzxKAEhUhxgAJBBE9AvZG9jdSahdI4vFhAg IAAgKD8pG7D7KDAE8HUEECwCKDAN0Fz0ZnMKhQBwZC8FsQCQbf8DEArAYgAIkAQgHaEhkR4xeHR5 cAeRJEEeZlsvYf5wE1BHASigHNAgcx4gAJD3E8AAcF0wLC1MOdFraDoFsyKAOtN0cgBxYvIuJnG/ CoVM4AeABtAEkCKAdFSwnyKQA2AZEAQgYkBuJ1Zhxy8AIxEgsGlnaG4AcTD9CoViVlEhkFcyH8AB gG/yfiEtTE6fT680pQqFFTEAAXcgAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzAgSOFM0HG8AUAACDAgSOFM 0HG8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAASYk= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:22:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Mac/Win Word indexes Andy wrote: > >Does anyone have any experience converting MS Word files with embedded >indexing tags from Mac to PC? Hi Andy, I've had good luck translating Mac Word 5.1 files into PC Word files using MacLinkPlus translation software (for formatting and graphics). I haven't tried the indexing translation capabilities of MacLinkPlus because I haven't needed to create any indexes (yet) other than stand-alone, embedded Word (Mac), or Frame (which I've found to be truly cross-platform). I also recently upgraded to Word 6.1 for the Mac, and it seems to have really good cross-platform capabilities--although the method of doing embedded indexing is completely different in versions 5.1 and 6. I haven't had the time to learn the version 6 method yet, so I just create the embedded indexes in Word 5.1 and use MacLinkPlus to convert the files to Word 6 for the Mac if I have to go to the newer version for the customer. I would think that you could do the same to convert to Word for the PC. You might want to check out their web site at: http://www.dataviz.com/ for more info. Good luck! Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Karin Arrigoni Write Away Editing and Indexing Services E-Mail: KArrigoni2@aol.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 13:34:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Mac/Win Word index test I have both a Mac and a PC here at work, so I put together a test file this morning by coding a paragraph in Word for Mac (on a PowerMac). I saved as a Word Document (the default option), and copied the file to a PC-formatted disk. It opened just fine on my PC, and I was able to compile the codes without any problem. Of course, that'll only work if you're using a PowerMac that can read PC-formatted disks. Important stuff... * Be sure to save the file with a PC-compatible filename, and use the .doc filename extension (for example, index.doc). * DON'T save in Word for Windows format. This will strip out your indexing codes! Use the Word Document option -- it's the Word for Mac default option. * DON'T try to export into RTF. It will reformat the hidden indexing fields. Word embedded codes have the format {XE "index entry" } Exporting into RTF will reformat them as {xe "index entry"} which can create problem when you go to compile. Hope this helps! Erika Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:27:55 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Database Indexer There is no web site for database indexing per se. There is a page at the ASI website (http://www.well.com/user/asi/index.html) that describes database indexing, however it mainly addresses the computer software aspect (the software has the capacity to generate a concordence if database fields have been designed correctly). The only place I know of that teaches MeSH (medical subject headings, the indexing style for National Library of Medicine, MEDLINE and Index Medicus) is the NLM itself. The only way NLM will train you is if you are hired by one of their subcontractors. Other databases train you in-house on their thesauri and styles. As for a document describing the differences, on ASI's website there is a link to Glenda Browne's article, which describes database indexing well. Also, through the ASI site, you can access the archives for Index-L, which is searchable. There have been threads in the last year discussing the database and back-of-the-book (BOB) differences. I'm a medical database indexer, or a periodical indexer for databases. I'm having a bit of an identity crisis about this. The ASI Special Interest Group for Science and Medicine is having a discussion about this very topic. When we've completed our brochure, perhaps one of us can post it here. Basically, database indexers worked from a controlled vocabulary and the index is open (is added to constantly as new information is published), while BOB indexing is closed, limited to the author's depth and terminology. BOB indexes map out the information within a text and provide pointers into the text. Database indexes are like funnels, linking lots of different sources with common topics. Consistency across time is the main problem with databases. I can natter on for hours, as Index-l'ers well know. I'll be happy to bend your eyes with more, should you wish. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:30:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer I, too, am a medical database indexer. Where would you suggest getting a job "doing it."? I also write abstracts. Do you know of any open medical freelance database positions? I don't mean to flame you. I know you mean well. But I find your advice awfully vague. Suellen G. Kasoff On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 William Perez writes: > Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: > > As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn is > by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent > start. For most databases, the indexer applies a controlled > vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical > articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the > vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical > journals). > > Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to > brush up on your writing skills. > > >______________________________ Reply Separator >_________________________________ >Subject: Re: Database Indexer >Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE >Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. >Could = >you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on the >= >topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn = >medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing = >Course. Thanks. > >Maxine M. Okazaki >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu > >---------- >From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: Database Indexer > >Hello all; > >As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my >"free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? > >I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can >someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences >and/or similarities in these types of indexing? > >I appreciate your assistance, > >Jim >Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com >Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... >but three lefts do! > > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >eJ8+IioQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG >AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFoAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd >AQ9UAgAAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cABTTVRQAElOREVYLUxAQklOR1ZNQi5D >Qy5CSU5HSEFNVE9OLkVEVQAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAASU5ERVgt >TEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHQAA >ACdJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cCcAAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpJTkRFWC1M >QEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA >AAAD8T4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRh >YmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAPUGAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcGAAUADAA1ACgABABMAQEggAMADgAAAM0HBgAFAAwA >MAAfAAQAPgEBCYABACEAAABCOTdBNDVFMEEwREREMDExOUJEQTAwMjBBRkQzMjQ1RgBBBwEDkAYA >bAUAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQBA4SgF0XG8AR4AcAAB >AAAAFQAAAFJFOiBEYXRhYmFzZSBJbmRleGVyAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8cdEFKOBFerrdoBHQ >m9oAIK/TJF8AAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAYAAAAbW9rYXpha2lAYWNwdWIu >ZHVrZS5lZHUAAwAGEBftQn4DAAcQCgMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhJRVZFUllPTkVJTUFMU09BTkVX >QklFSU5URVJFU1RFRElOREFUQUJBU0VJTkRFWElOR0NPVUxEWU9VUExFQVNFUE9TVFlPVVJSRVNQ >T05TRVNUT1RIRUxJU1Q/QUxTTyxXSEkAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADwAwAA7AMAAKMGAABMWkZ1zHLCEP8A >CgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMC >gH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFEFC/JjAEAgSGkgZQp2BJB5AiBlLiAg >kEknbSAHQHNvHADSIBuAd2IIkCALgBPQixYQE8FkHOEgZGEBka5hEbAc4Q2weAuAZxuhTQhRbB2A >G2B1IAtQZfkeInBvE8AfYgXAHTEgIEsAgAeRdBxAdGgc0GwpBAB0PxuwQRwhLCDsd2gDEBzQdxzQ >CsAc0EcCICGDIWBwaWMjYGb1Hc9nIoBjA5EAcBtiILGNBaBtB4AecCBobwfgvkklkB8jH8EEoQeA >ZCQQvwdAJG8e0hvQGzAnQW0fsQMdYiGSVVNEQSBCex4gJBFJHnUfAhGhG6FUYRGAbmtzLgqFCoVN >FmEeoRzQTRugT2thcHpha2kKhQRgLtRAAQDQcHViLmR1azsbkAmAdS1MCvQh0DE4gjAC0WktMTQ0 >DfDnDNAy8wtZMTYKoANgE9D6YwVALTUXCoczywwwNJY6RgNhOjYeNJYMgiBKGQdwIFcDEBwwbltT >IE1UUDpqB3B3QABNQUlMLlRSQQBOU1BPUlQuQ/hPTV01vzbNBmACMDf/LzkLLNAsYSiQeSKASnUJ >JiEwNSKAMTk5N9ggNDoB0BSwTTxfNs2sVG8+nzkLTR8wdAUg/yLRJlEFIAiQAjAEICRBIdKBG8BO >REVYLUxCbzs9bjBgajTRRI85C1JlfUsARCimK7MEkDEfMiMzjjYzlxpFNJZIZWwVoLccAQJwLUxB >BCAnMGEb8f8cdiFlHmYikAWwH0AigBvSvGdvLAIhYiAwR4F1BUD0bXkKhSIDUAngJ0Ig8d4iUXIn >ACwCHGBxClATwH5pI3MooB9jGzBHcQDAeS4gEbAjEQQgJwRwZCecID8tTCcwWlJtdRFw5SCxZh0h >bmNTkyifWbD9LSAgBuAvsB5bAHAKhRww/weAJhIgIBzxKAEhUhxgAJBBE9AvZG9jdSahdI4vFhAg >IAAgKD8pG7D7KDAE8HUEECwCKDAN0Fz0ZnMKhQBwZC8FsQCQbf8DEArAYgAIkAQgHaEhkR4xeHR5 >cAeRJEEeZlsvYf5wE1BHASigHNAgcx4gAJD3E8AAcF0wLC1MOdFraDoFsyKAOtN0cgBxYvIuJnG/ >CoVM4AeABtAEkCKAdFSwnyKQA2AZEAQgYkBuJ1Zhxy8AIxEgsGlnaG4AcTD9CoViVlEhkFcyH8AB >gG/yfiEtTE6fT680pQqFFTEAAXcgAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzAgSOFM0HG8AUAACDAgSOFM >0HG8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAASYk= > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0-- > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 03:16:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: contractor's questionnaires I just got a questionnaire from one of my clients that brings back memories of an earlier thread. The "questionnaire" came certified mail (in fact, I had to sign for it twice!), it asks for a list of 3-5 current clients not including itself, copies of imprinted business cards and letterhead, and brochures or other advertising. Yikes! I really only work part time, so I don't have a huge client list. I was just getting ready to make up new cards/brochures/letterhead because I just moved (yes, again!), but I was going to use a desktop program and my laser printer. Now I'm thinking I need to order imprinted cards just to keep the IRS off the backs of my clients. Does anyone have any suggestions/gripes to share/experiences to share/anything else to say? Thanks Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:07:39 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: botanical names I'm indexing a book on herbalism in which the genus/species names as well as common names are used. I've been asked to cross reference from the g/s to the common names. My question: Is the following correct, in a case in which two g/s names are declared to have the same medical value (and common name)? ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow ... Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa, Achillea millefolium^), 65-68 Am I overindexing here? Is there any way to abbreviate any of these terms? Should I just have a cross reference from ^Achillea^ to Yarrow? Space is no object. thanks, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 06:14:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706070755.DAA28299@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Victoria, If the two species of Achillea are discussed collectively or in a parallel fashion, then x-ref to Yarrow is most appropriate. To avoid overindexing at the "Achillea" location you might use an entry such as: ^Achilles^, various species. ^see^ Yarrow You also need to look at the intended reader audience of this book. Will inclusion of each species name in the index be of importance? Susan Healy Florida Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Victoria Baker wrote: > I'm indexing a book on herbalism in which the genus/species names as well > as common names are used. I've been asked to cross reference from the g/s > to the common names. > > My question: Is the following correct, in a case in which two g/s names > are declared to have the same medical value (and common name)? > > ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow > ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow > ... > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa, Achillea millefolium^), 65-68 > > Am I overindexing here? Is there any way to abbreviate any of these terms? > Should I just have a cross reference from ^Achillea^ to Yarrow? > Space is no object. > > thanks, > Victoria > > vbaker@mcn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:46:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Re: LIBJOBS - Library and Information Science Jobs Dear Lee and other Index-Lers who may be interested, The LIBJOBS listserv is provided by the International Federation of Library Associations and Institutions (IFLA). It started, as far as I know, about two years ago. Here's how to subscribe: To subscribe to the list and receive job ads Send the following to: LISTSERV@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA in the body of the message: SUBSCRIBE LIBJOBS Jobs can also be posted to LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA It is a moderated list and submissions are archived for a one-month period. ******************************************************************************** Jean A. Thompson PHONE: (518) 442-3628 Monographic Cataloger FAX: (518) 442-3630 University at Albany/SUNY University Library, B-35 E-MAIL: thompson@cnsvax.albany.edu 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 Jean Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:51:02 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: contractor's questionnaires Two suggestions immediately come to mind. Use a PO Box as a permament address. If you're in a big city, get one right downtown because regardless of your actual suburban residential address you'll probably still be going downtown once a week or so. Tbat could go on your business card. If need be, add a street address marked : "For Couriers Only" 2. You can get nice Avery laser business card laser printer stock that will allow you to print as few as ONE business card to satisfy a client before you move to your new address. I can't imagine that "imprinted" (from an offset print shop?) business card would make a difference. 3. Are you sure this client is needing your help to keep the IRS off his/her back? Maybe they just want to see how big and substantial and successful your operation is. Best wishes, David "It's a jungle in there." (An anonymous PC technician.) - - - - - - - - - - - - LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I just got a questionnaire from one of my clients that brings back memories > of an earlier thread. The "questionnaire" came certified mail (in fact, I had > to sign for it twice!), it asks for a list of 3-5 current clients not > including itself, copies of imprinted business cards and letterhead, and > brochures or other advertising. Yikes! > I really only work part time, so I don't have a huge client list. I was just > getting ready to make up new cards/brochures/letterhead because I just moved > (yes, again!), but I was going to use a desktop program and my laser printer. > Now I'm thinking I need to order imprinted cards just to keep the IRS off the > backs of my clients. Does anyone have any suggestions/gripes to > share/experiences to share/anything else to say? > > Thanks > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 06:22:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: botanical names At 12:07 AM 6/6/97 LCL, Victoria wrote: > ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow > ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow > ... > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa, Achillea millefolium^), 65-68 > >Am I overindexing here? I think not. Many--certainly not all, but many--folks reading a book such as this will be familiar with scientific names and look for them in an index. Unless your publisher disagrees, I think you are providing a serviceable index. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Indexer Certification Diane Worden (WordenDex@AOL.COM) wrote: >Whether back-of-book or database, indexer certification would be a great >continuing education program primarily of interest to the indexer. I don't >think clients in the US are that particular about whom they hire as >freelancers. Bottom-line budgets seem to be the controlling factor, and >getting the most/best work for as little payout as possible is the hardball >game. Corporate recruitment may be another matter, where "pieces of paper" at >least let potential job candidates get their big toe in the door. Because >experience often translates into higher entry salaries, the bottom line >favors someone willing to learn as they go. Willingness to gain certification >might be the prime hiring factor. Larry Harrison's comment about >certification specificity applies equally to BOB and DB indexers. I agree with your comment about the benefit to the indexer. But, it is also interesting that at least 5 (I do not have a full roster of attendees) of the dozen people attending the certification roundtable in Winston-Salem were people who hire freelance indexers, need to find more indexers, and "cannot afford to take a chance on an unknown indexer" because they are concerned about the quality of their product. They were ready for some kind of credential sponsored by ASI that they could rely on to choose at least minimally competent indexers from a pile of resumes. One person even uses a test, and still finds people who pass the test but cannot really index well. These folks were not from the New York "names" in traditional publishing. However, there is more than this kind of publishing out there, and the concern for index quality is not dead; perhaps, just harder to find. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:27:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: botanical names Victoria asked whether she could abbreviate in this case. Yes. Genus names are often abbreviated for secondary usages, to the initial. For example: Achillea lanulosa but: Yarrow (^A.lanulosa, A.millefolium^), 65-68 Some of my gardening books do this so often that I forget the genus. Linda ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: botanical names Author: Susan Healy at unixlink Date: 6/6/97 6:14 AM Victoria, If the two species of Achillea are discussed collectively or in a parallel fashion, then x-ref to Yarrow is most appropriate. To avoid overindexing at the "Achillea" location you might use an entry such as: ^Achilles^, various species. ^see^ Yarrow You also need to look at the intended reader audience of this book. Will inclusion of each species name in the index be of importance? Susan Healy Florida Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Victoria Baker wrote: > I'm indexing a book on herbalism in which the genus/species names as well > as common names are used. I've been asked to cross reference from the g/s > to the common names. > > My question: Is the following correct, in a case in which two g/s names > are declared to have the same medical value (and common name)? > > ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow > ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow > ... > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa, Achillea millefolium^), 65-68 > > Am I overindexing here? Is there any way to abbreviate any of these terms? > Should I just have a cross reference from ^Achillea^ to Yarrow? > Space is no object. > > thanks, > Victoria > > vbaker@mcn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: basic index rules Hello, Being assigned to write a new manual for our company, I subscribed to your list partly out of interest in indexing as an independent career, and partly for help in creating this new index. This is a TRULY newbie question. Is there a simple list of basic indexing rules that someone can recommend? I'll pop out and buy the book. As an experienced writer I'm comfortable with a lot of aspects - I know what reasonable to add to the index. But haven't a clue as to an organized way to go thru a chapter and pick out index entries, then make sure they aren't duplicates, etc. Thank you, LInda ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:35:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: botanical names Victoria, If space is no object, then why not just double-post rather than using a See ref to Yarrow? A...l..., 65-66 A...m..., 67-68 Y (A...l..., A...m...), 65-68 The double-post saves reader access time, while the See ref puts everything into just one place (desirable and reasonable if space is limited). Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:34:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: contractor's questionnaires Leslie Frank asked about the questionnaire he/she (sorry, don't remember) received from a publisher. At the publisher I work for, we're aware of the IRS' 20 guidelines (I think it's 20), but we've never actually sent out questionnaires to clients for them to fill out. We assume that freelancers take the responsibility to make sure they're adhering to IRS rules, just as we're taking responsibility for the same. We're supposed to be aware of these guidelines, but we can't -- and shouldn't -- "check up" on freelancers to make sure they're doing what they need to do. The big thing for us is that we structure our contracts properly: mainly, make sure freelancers aren't handling projects on an ipso-facto retainer basis (if they're working on series, for instance, each volume is a separate job; therefore, there's no contractual implication that they're always working on the project), and, perhaps most importantly, the shift away from hourly rates (which is more suggestive of an ongoing -- and in the eyes of the IRS -- possibly employer/employee type of relationship) to payment-for-the-job rates. This has worked pretty well. We still occasionally pay by the hour when it makes more sense (quicky, production-type, miscellaneous cleanup work; never-before-done work where determining the amount of time it will take is actually part of what we're paying the freelancer to do for us). And, of course, with indexers, we still tend to pay by the indexable typeset page, which is still indicative of the job itself, not how much time it takes (though, of course, that's built in to the per-page rate that the two parties agree on). Hope that helps. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: botanical names Or use: ^Achillea^ spp. ^See^ yarrow. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:59:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: basic index rules Linda: First, read over the indexing guidelines in the Chicago Manual of Style. That's really plenty for you to be able to produce a fine index. _Indexing Books_ by Nancy C. Mulvaney is much more detailed. Dedicated indexing software (I use Cindex) is a great joy to me, but really not worth one job. Your company would have an index sooner (and possibly better) if the company gets Cindex or Macrex (the top-of-the-line products). At 09:34 AM 6/6/97 -0500, you wrote: > Hello, > > Being assigned to write a new manual for our company, I subscribed to > your list partly out of interest in indexing as an independent career, > and partly for help in creating this new index. > > This is a TRULY newbie question. > > Is there a simple list of basic indexing rules that someone can > recommend? I'll pop out and buy the book. > > As an experienced writer I'm comfortable with a lot of aspects - I > know what reasonable to add to the index. But haven't a clue as to an > organized way to go thru a chapter and pick out index entries, then > make sure they aren't duplicates, etc. > > Thank you, > LInda > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 08:13:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: contractor's questionnaires At 03:16 AM 6/6/97 -0400, LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: >I just got a questionnaire from one of my clients that brings back memories >of an earlier thread. Leslie, you don't have to be concerned about the IRS or anybody else! The client is concerned about protecting ITS hide in case the IRS decides you are a bona fide employee and not an independent contractor. Whether or not you have "real" business cards or a P.O. box or any of the rest of it...you are still in business for yourself, which is all the company needs to know (and all the IRS wants to know as well). I'm wondering who you are working for (no need to tell us) if you are getting these kinds of questionnaires fairly often. I've never had one in all the years I've been involved in publishing, though I have been asked to sign contracts indicating my status as an independent contractor. Please don't spend more than 30 seconds worrying about this. It's their problem, not yours. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:05:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Ordering ASI pubs The ASI Web page for ordering pubs contains this notice: Until further notice, ASI publications are not available. Please stay tuned for more information. Check your local library or bookstore for copies of the publications you're interested in. That sounds like pubs are not available *at all* from ASI. Anyone know the story? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: botanical names In response to Victoria's question, here are some suggestions: ^Achillea^ spp. ^See^ Yarrow or ^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^. ^See^ Yarrow or the way you had it ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow and then Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^), 65-68 I won't mention how I feel about indexing under common rather than genus names (heh heh). Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:24:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Ordering ASI pubs Dick and all, ASI publications will be handled by Information Today, a publishing company that specializes in library-oriented and other information-industry publications. The transition is happening, but the publications will be available again as soon as the stock is transferred. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:55:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: marketing blues In-Reply-To: <199706040404.XAA11866@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I spent some time this morning on calls to publishers I would really love to >work for. One, in a mid-west city, asked me what the average rate in this >area (New England) is. When I answered what I felt was a representative and >fairly respectable figure ($3-4/page), she said that they are able to >contract locally at $1.75/page. Have you come up against this reaction? Any >suggestions for responding? >Barbara Here's how I'd respond: "Are you and your readers satisfied with the resulting indexes?" If she says yes, then I'd just thank her for her time. If she says no or something like, "Why, whatever do you mean?" I'd describe the kind of indexes I provide. I agree with Janet and others that you shouldn't waste your time trying to convince this editor; if, OTOH, she sounds interested in hearing what a higher fee might buy . . . * >This is where local ASI chapters >can have an effect--get these editors to some ASI meetings, get them to learn >the difference between a bad index and a good index, and maybe then they will >want to hire the better indexer regardless of price! *I want to quibble with equating low rates with bad results. Although that is frequently true, we shouldn't *assume* that anyone charging a low rate is a bad indexer. There are plenty of indexers out there who are not in touch with other indexers (i.e., not ASI members and not Index-L subscribers) and may not know what the going rate is. Some may be charging low rates because they are moonlighting and don't need the higher rate as much as someone who is indexing full-time. I know that my reaction to copyediting rates changed dramatically after I quit moonlighting and became a full-time indexer and copy editor. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:55:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Dangers of freelancing We've all heard about carpal tunnel, eyestrain, etc., but here's a new one for y'all. I'm indexing a book for a glass artist. When the pages arrived, I found shards of colored glass in the box and embedded in the packing foam! Now the shards are in the carpet in my office, because my 5-yr-old discovered them before I did and--so typical--dumped the box. (No one got cut.) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 12:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Dangers of freelancing Borrow a really powerful shop vac, I'd say. Then scrub the carpet with a brush and vacuum it again. (Should be a wet-dry vac.) My two cents. Children are one thing, but one day you might have a cat! And how can you explain cuts and pokes to a cat! They'll understand, but they're not very forgiving. Fortunately they _are_ pretty forgetful. DRA Carol Roberts wrote: > > We've all heard about carpal tunnel, eyestrain, etc., but here's a new one > for y'all. I'm indexing a book for a glass artist. When the pages arrived, > I found shards of colored glass in the box and embedded in the packing > foam! Now the shards are in the carpet in my office, because my 5-yr-old > discovered them before I did and--so typical--dumped the box. (No one got > cut.) > > Cheers, > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 13:35:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Ordering ASI pubs At 09:24 AM 6/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dick and all, > ASI publications will be handled by Information Today, a publishing >company that specializes in library-oriented and other information-industry >publications. The transition is happening, but the publications will be >available again as soon as the stock is transferred. Any time frame on that? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:38:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706060742.AAA03978@mx4.u.washington.edu> When a popular name refers to more than one species you should use the genus and spp, e.g., liquorice, Glycyrrhiza spp., not a specific uralensis or whatever since medicinal liquorice may be the root of more than one species. Another example, Chinese Flower Pepper (Zanthoxylum spp.), the commercial product of which is from several species. Note that popular names may embrace several species and that crossreferences can become extremely complicated, e.g., waterchestnuts .... Of course if the usage is straightforward in your text .... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 10:39:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706061014.DAA08805@mx4.u.washington.edu> But if you write Zanthoxylum various species see "Chinese Flower Pepper" this will not be true since Chinese Flower pepper only refers to certain species. Are all Achilles yallow? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:18:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "(Pamela Venneman)" Subject: Re: Ordering ASI pubs Hi all, I ordered ASI publications at the end of March and after 2 or 3 E-mails sent several weeks ago and one letter (sent earlier this week) I have yet to hear. I did call the office on another matter in early April and they said something about having a publisher handle the publication requests; but I was not sure if this was something under consideration or a "done deal" and they did not give many details or that this would affect my order. As someone in the USDA course, I could really use these publications or at the very least would like to know if ASI even received my order and check. Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 17:08:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Spencer Subject: Re: Ordering ASI pubs Greetings to all! Well, this message came 2 hours too late. I JUST sent off for some ASI pubs. Thanks! I can assume my check will be returned uncashed? If the treasurer of ASI will let me know, I'd appreciate it. I'll need the cash to purchase the pubs elsewhere. If the "unavailable pubs" message is a mistake, please let me know that, as well. Thanks, Dawn indexlady@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Ordering ASI pubs In-Reply-To: <3.0.16.19970606092702.41e759a6@mail.mcn.org> I'm glad to hear that the ASI pubs will be distributed by Information Today. Hope it doesn't mean a BIG increase in prices. Like others who've responded on the list today I've had considerable problems in the past ordering publications. Turn-around times varied from several weeks to several months,with very long waits until e-mailed/snail mail inquiries were answered (if at all). Getting a refund for unavilable books took up at least 6 months. The last couple of times I've blown off the ASI member discount and ordered through amazon.com just to eliminate the hassles. On the other hand I'm sure that the move from Texas to Seattle caused a lot of the delays/problems, and I have nothing but admiration for every other aspect of ASI -- especially Keywords and the annual conference. Getting out from under the publications should make everything else work even better. Susie Stephenson UBC/SLAIS Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Fri, 6 Jun 1997, Elinor Lindheimer wrote: > Dick and all, > ASI publications will be handled by Information Today, a publishing > company that specializes in library-oriented and other information-industry > publications. The transition is happening, but the publications will be > available again as soon as the stock is transferred. > > Elinor Lindheimer > elinorl@mcn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 18:26:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Fall Indexing Conference, NM ASI Group ********************************************* **** Indexing Up, Up, and Away! **** ********************************* The New Mexico Group of the American Society of Indexers will hold its first annual Fall Indexing Conference on Friday and Saturday, October 3rd and 4th, 1997. October 4th is also the first day of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta, so if you haven't experienced the sight of 700 hot-air balloons flying at dawn, now is the time! SCHEDULE: The conference will kick off late Friday afternoon with a tour of Access Innovations, an Albuquerque company specializing in converting printed materials to online formats such as HTML, SGML, CD-ROM, document management systems, and customized databases. Access Innovations (http://www.accessinn.com) has pioneered a specialized indexing software package, with vocabularies that are customized and fine-tuned for each client. The hour-long tour will be followed Friday evening by a wine-and-cheese reception for the conference speakers and attendees. Saturday's conference activities will feature two workshops, and lunch will be provided. "Embedded Indexing" The morning session will be presented by Jan C. Wright, of Wright Information Indexing Services in Seattle. This workshop will focus on planning and resolving issues for embedded indexing, using MS Word as an example application. Hands-on activities will be included, so bring a laptop if you have one (a limited number of computers will be available as well). Jan, in business as a freelance indexer since 1991, has built indexes in Word, PageMaker, and several arcane tools for both print and online materials. Lunch will be served, and will include a short discussion on the Wilson Award by Janet Perlman, who was an alternate judge this year. "The Business Of Being In Business" In the afternoon session Janet Perlman, of Southwest Indexing in Phoenix, will focus on such topics as marketing your business, financial record keeping, managing your time, and handling contracts and estimates. Janet, who is on the American Society of Indexers' National Executive Committee, helped found the Arizona chapter of ASI, and just completed her term of office as its first president. Janet has been a technical and scientific indexer for more than 20 years. COST: The cost of the conference, which includes lunch on Saturday, will be $45.00 for registrations postmarked by September 1st, and $50.00 thereafter. Of course, non-ASI members are welcome. Please note that this cost is for Saturday's events only; the tour of Access Innovations and the Friday evening reception are complementary. Also, we regret that we cannot accept credit cards, and we'll need to have your registration on paper, rather than by email. Thanks! BALLOON FIESTA: If you've ever thought about coming to Albuquerque for the Balloon Fiesta (upwards of 700 balloons in the sky at once!) , this is your chance to make it a business trip. But MAKE YOUR PLANS SOON if you'll need to stay in a local hotel, as rooms fill up *very* early for that week. Plan to stay through Sunday morning to enjoy the mass ascension at dawn (check out the balloon fiesta on the web at http://www.aibf.com). Please see below for phone numbers of some local motels, as well as the web address for the NM Central Reservations service. REGISTRATION: For more information, contact Caroline Parks, caroline@rt66.com, or 505-286-2738 (between 9:00 am and 7:00 pm MST, please). Or fill out the form below and send it with a check for the full amount to Caroline Parks, 8 Calle Dorada, Tijeras, NM 87059. Make checks payable to Linda Nelson / ASI. LODGING: *** For lodging information in Albuquerque: *** New Mexico Central Reservations, 800-466-7829 or http://www.nmtravel.com Albuquerque B & B Association Reservations, 800-916-3322 B & B Southwest Reservations, 800-762-9704 Days Inn Motels 800-325-2525 Super 8 Motels, 800-800-8000 (the Bernalillo Super 8 Motel, 505-867-0766, has lots of smoking rooms and a *few* non-smoking rooms open for that weekend, as of 6/2. It's located about 20 miles north of town, but may be a good last-ditch option.) REGISTRATION FORM: ======================================================= Please print out and mail to: Caroline Parks 8 Calle Dorada Tijeras, NM 87059 Name ______________________________________________ Address _____________________________________________ _____________________________________________ Telephone ______________________ Fax _____________________ Email ____________________________________ Vegetarian or other special dietary considerations? _________________________________________________________________ Can you bring a laptop? ______________________________ Mac or PC? _________________________________ Do you have Word _________ or Pagemaker ___________ installed on it? Will you be planning to attend the tour of Access Innovations on Friday afternoon? _______________ ======================================================= ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:35:30 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706061623.JAA10399@dns1.mcn.org> Thanks everyone for responding to my question. I'm going to follow Elinor's suggestion which modifies my original slightly: > ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow > ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow > > and then > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^), 65-68 The thing is, this is a highly specialized herbal that focuses on some 40 herbs, going into details of their usage not generally occuring in herbals (such as a specifics for fevers without sweat, with sweat, with debilitating sweat, as intermittent, as low-grade, with skin eruptions...), so Yarrow has multiple subheadings. Consequently, double posting is not an option. Also, the two ^Achillea^ species under discussion are defined as being the same medicinally, so perhaps I shall include an entry Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) ^A. millefolium^ vs. ^A. lanulosa^, 65 since some herbalists make a distinction between them and this author specifically addresses this. P.Buell wrote that: >When a popular name refers to more than one species you should use the >genus and spp, e.g., liquorice, Glycyrrhiza spp., not a specific uralensis >or whatever since medicinal liquorice may be the root of more than one >species. Yes, but when the author is saying, "these two species are medicinal and equal, but other species are ornamentals," it won't do to reference the whole genus. New Question 1: Since the actual content of the above entry declares them equal and not opposed, as the term "vs." implies, is there a better term for this particular comparison? Maybe, Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) ^A. millefolium^ and ^A. lanulosa^, compared, 65 Compared doesn't strictly address the issue either. Suggestions? (Is my question clear?) New Question 2: But here's another twist: A. millefolium is actually the preferred species name, used exclusively after the the definition of A. lanulosa as equal (and later slightly contradicting himself in a caution against diploid mutations). Would there be any room for switching the two genus names in the parentheses (thus taking them out of alphabetical order): Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^; ^A. lanulosa^) New Question 3: Maybe I should go back to square one and x-ref A. millefolium to Yarrow, but actually put the page reference in for A. lanulosa, and include only ^A. millefolium^ in the parentheses following Yarrow. What think? The substance of the book is made of these kinds of distinctions, so I need to be as careful as I can be. (Noting that this is one of the few such confusing instances.) Elinor wrote: >I won't mention how I feel about indexing under common rather than genus >names (heh heh). I know. The publisher feels the use of the common names will make the book more accessible. I'm cross-referencing alternative names like crazy. The author goes back and forth between the genus and the common name, and does sometimes conveniently list other names they are known by, and I'm cross-referencing from all of the genus names. But still. However it is true that most herbals are done in this manner, and most do not have x-refs from the genus names, so at least there's that??... More examples of the ways we bend, but never break! best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 00:01:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Doug Williams Subject: Domain Name Registration >>On June 3, Doug wrote >> >>If you get a new ISP you'll get a new address, which is a hassle, unless >>you have your own domain (like kensa.com), which goes wherever you go. > >How does one do this, Doug? I like it. > >******************************************************* >Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu >Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Martha, Your ISP or someone at the university should have the details. My ISP did the initial setup for $50, and I paid InterNIC $50/year for an initial registration period of two years. The ISP setup includes routing any domain name email to my local non-domain account. Since the domain name is unique, I can use any "account" name that I want at this domain, and the email all goes to the same place. For example, info@kensa.com, dougwill@kensa.com, anynameIwant@kensa.com, etc. My wife and kids have their own email addresses at kensa.com, and my email software - Eudora Pro - automatically filters incoming/outgoing messages into their individual mailboxes. If I change providers, I take my domain name with me to the new ISP. Doug Williams ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 01:17:11 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Domain Name Registration In-Reply-To: <199706070503.WAA19033@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Thanks Doug. This sounds like a very good idea. Martha On June 6, Doug wrote >Your ISP or someone at the university should have the details. My ISP did >the initial setup for $50, and I paid InterNIC $50/year for an initial >registration period of two years. > >The ISP setup includes routing any domain name email to my local ******************************************************* Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Indexes for books in philosophy, cultural and physical anthropology, linguistics, religions, women's studies, and current culture. ******************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:33:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Domain Name Registration >If I change providers, I take my domain name with me to the new ISP. > This was also my assumption. BUT, I now find out that providers other than my current provider expect a bizarre premium for the very simple process of routing my domain name. Some want money every month or quarter. Others want $50 a year. I pay InterNic, myself. It is not, in my opinion, valid for a provider who does not pay anything to InterNic to charge me. I might consider a one-time-only setup (BUT 50$?!). A lot a local providers are popping up--watch out, they are GREEDY! Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 10:20:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "[Gaye Tarallo]" Subject: Advice for a newcomer Hello, I am a newcomer to indexing and INDEX-L. I am looking for advice on a couple of topics.. 1. How useful is the USDA course?? I am aware it takes about a year to complete, but can you obtain the same level of expertise on your own? Does the fact that you have completed the course carry any weight with prospective clients? How many of you have taken the course and found it worthwhile, and how many wouldn't bother with it? 2. Software suggestions for indexing... I have a PC running Windows95. As I am just starting out, I am hesitant to invest $400 - 500 for the higher end software. Are any of you running the lesser expensive programs and are you happy with it? Or is it worth it to make the initial investment for the more expensive programs?? Thanks for any other suggestions you may be able to give to a novice indexer.. Gaye Tarallo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 11:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: Advice for a newcomer > 2. Software suggestions for indexing... I have a PC running Windows95. > As I am just starting out, I am hesitant to invest $400 - 500 for the higher >end software. Are any of you running the lesser expensive programs and are >you happy with it? Or is it worth it to make the initial investment for the >more expensive programs?? I'd definitely advise investing in one of the dedicated programs. If you're genuinely serious about being in business as an indexer, investing in the success of your business is the smartest move you can make. You have to spend a certain amount of money (and time, and effort) in order to make money. When I teach the _Starting Out and Thriving as a Freelance Editor_ workshop for the Editors' Association of Canada, I hear this kind of "hesitancy" all the time--and I've come to believe that unless it can be overcome, it does *not* bode well for the hesitator's future as a freelancer. I've heard would-be editors complain that the dictionaries and style guides I advise them to buy are "exPENsive, you know" . Here's my usual answer to such comments: <"stern coach" mode--okay, rant mode!--on> Well, yes, I *do* know that they cost. And they are the tools of our trade. Can you do an adequate job without them? Maybe. But you'll do it a lot more efficiently if you have them at hand. Service businesses often require a relatively *low* capital investment--AND virtually *all* require *some* upfront investment. If you were going into the restaurant business, you'd need to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars in capital expenses before you ever opened your doors. If you want to be a freelance editor (or proofreader, or indexer), you *must* be prepared to spend a thousand or two (more if you don't already have a computer) in the first couple of years on training, marketing, equipment, etc. In addition, you'll need enough in the bank--or coming in from another source, such as your day job, your partner's income, or a rich and generous aunt--to pay all your operating expenses, business *and* personal for a mininum of six months (and a year, or even two, would be much safer). Even if all your marketing efforts paid off immediately (a relatively unlikely possibility), it would still be a couple of months before you'd completed some projects, billed the clients, and gotten paid. I started my own business 15 years ago while working half-time at a regular job. I kept my overhead low by working from my home and not wasting money on slick brochures or advertising (which aren't particularly effective in this field anyway). I bought my first computer and fax machine with a low-interest credit-union loan co-signed by my gainfully employed mom. I used the money from my first two indexing projects (done using WordPerfect) to buy Macrex. Other expenses (books, seminars, business cards, an answering machine, and professional-association dues) came out of my regular or freelance income. In other words, I poured the initial "profits" from my budding business directly back into the business until the business was self-sustaining, which took roughly two and a half years. If you're *not* prepared (or able) to feed your startup business the funds it needs, then do yourself and your loved ones a favour and *don't quit your day job*. You'll save yourself a lot of heartache and financial woes. Gaye, I hope that you and other newbies will take this advice in the spirit in which it's offered. I genuinely love to see other people succeed in this business. And over the years, I've observed that perhaps 5% of those who start out actually wind up "surviving and thriving." Investing in your business--combined with talent at whatever service you offer--will go a long way toward ensuring that you're among that "lucky" 5%. Regards, Rica Night >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "The person at the top of the mountain didn't *fall* there!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:15:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Oops! (Fall Indexing Conference, NM ASI Group) My apologies -- in the announcement I sent out yesterday about our fall conference, I gave an incorrect URL for the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta! the correct URL is http://www.aibf.org . Hope nobody has had time to be inconvenienced by this ;-) Caroline Parks for the New Mexico group of ASI ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706070413.XAA08746@mixcom.mixcom.com> > ^Achillea lanulosa^. ^see^ Yarrow > ^Achillea millefolium^. ^see^ Yarrow > ... > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa, Achillea millefolium^), 65-68 > >Am I overindexing here? Is there any way to abbreviate any of these terms? > Should I just have a cross reference from ^Achillea^ to Yarrow? >Space is no object. The one abbreviation I'm aware of and have used is this: ^Achillea^ spp. ^See^ Yarrow ... Yarrow (^Achillea^ spp.), 65-68 But I would do this only if the client agrees that you need not show each separate species. However, since you say that space is not a problem, I wouldn't do this. I'd go ahead and put in the separate species names (but perhaps use the abbreviation in the parens after "Yarrow." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Dangers of freelancing In-Reply-To: <199706070413.XAA08746@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Borrow a really powerful shop vac, I'd say. Then scrub the carpet with >a brush and vacuum it again. (Should be a wet-dry vac.) My two cents. I have a wet-dry vac, which I didn't even think to use! Silly me. > >Children are one thing, but one day you might have a cat! And how can >you explain cuts and pokes to a cat! They'll understand, but they're not >very forgiving. Fortunately they _are_ pretty forgetful. I have 3 cats, who I kept out of the office til I'd had a chance to give the carpet a good cleaning. Fortunately, no one got hurt, but when I alerted the office where these pages came from, they were of course very apologetic. Apparently they are working in an environment with broken glass all around them. Sheesh! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 15:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: contractor's questionnaires In-Reply-To: <199706070413.XAA08746@mixcom.mixcom.com> When a business uses a questionnaire, I take that with a grain of salt. It's not personalized; it's just what they routinely send out. I simply send what I have. One client sent me their standard contract, which asked for info about my liability insurance. I simply crossed out that clause, wrote on the contract "see addendum," and wrote up an addendum. It stated (among other things I wanted to add to their contract) that I am an independent contractor, do not carry liability coverage, and do not assume liability for the contents of my indexes. The publisher accepted all this without batting an eyelash. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:45:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Advice for a newcomer Gaye, I took the USAD course, and I *highly* recommend it. I doubt that I could've gotten the same level of education, training and advice that I received through a one-on-one relationship with my USDA instructor. She gave me great personal feedback on my lessons and my questions. At $280 (or whatever it is), including textbooks and lesson book, I think it's the deal of the century! I don't know if it carries weight with clients; it's on my resume, but I've never received specific feedback/comments on it. On your second question, I heartily agree with an earlier reply that someone gave you; I think it's worth it to make the initial investment for one of the more expensive programs! You've got to have the proper tools to do the job! Good luck! Peg Mauer Communication Link In a message dated 97-06-07 13:59:06 EDT, you write: > 1. How useful is the USDA course?? I am aware it takes about a year to > complete, but can you obtain the same level of expertise on your own? Does > the fact that you have completed the course carry any weight with > prospective > clients? How many of you have taken the course and found it worthwhile, and > how many wouldn't bother with it? > > 2. Software suggestions for indexing... I have a PC running Windows95. > As I am just starting out, I am hesitant to invest $400 - 500 for the > higher > end software. Are any of you running the lesser expensive programs and are > you happy with it? Or is it worth it to make the initial investment for the > more expensive programs?? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:48:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706070501.WAA29877@mx4.u.washington.edu> On use of .spp for medicinals. Ideally, this or that species is "medicinal," but in the trade there are often substitutions and the scientific names themselves, e.g., Aloe vera, may not be very scientific. Try, for example, picking a Latin name for sorghum with feuding botanists around. So, as a rule, if, as is suggested, yarrow is just and always just these two species then the proposed approach is justified. For liquorice, however, "medicinal" liquorice may be any one of a large number of species and the situation is much the same with rubbarb. But the bottom line is that the writer should deal with such problems in the text. In one book I have an entry for Liquorice, with no Latin name and a section Scientific names, with all the scientific names listed in one place including all the species (4 or 5) identified as liquorice in the text. If the reader is so inclined, they can use either the liquorice or latin entries to go back to the discussion. The real danger of saying x plant y Latin name or names is that the indexer may end up making a botanical decision that the author should be making. You can get yourself and your author in a heap of trouble this way. Botanists will almost go to war over a Latin name (bitter experience). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:53:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706070501.WAA29877@mx4.u.washington.edu> Sorry for the two messages on the same subject, but I forgot a point. An absolute model of indexing of a book on medicinal herbs is Hu Shiu-ying, An Enumeration of Chinese Materia Medica, various editions, including Hong Kong: The Chinese University Press, 1980. I have used this book for nearly 16 years now and I have never had anything to complain about. It is one of the finest reference works I know of and primarily because of the way it is indexed. One finds things, by the way, primarily by genus. The author uses 19th century customs terminology to provide English standards, a wonderful decision. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:01:35 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Dangers of freelancing Funny. My cats will work in an environment with broken glass around them too. We discussed it. You know, informed consent and all these days. Yes, they're pretty adaptable. Oh, once they left the room when a dinner guest started ranting about religion or politics or something. . . . Good weekend! Carol Roberts wrote: > > >Borrow a really powerful shop vac, I'd say. Then scrub the carpet with > >a brush and vacuum it again. (Should be a wet-dry vac.) My two cents. > > I have a wet-dry vac, which I didn't even think to use! Silly me. > > > >Children are one thing, but one day you might have a cat! And how can > >you explain cuts and pokes to a cat! They'll understand, but they're not > >very forgiving. Fortunately they _are_ pretty forgetful. > > I have 3 cats, who I kept out of the office til I'd had a chance to give > the carpet a good cleaning. Fortunately, no one got hurt, but when I > alerted the office where these pages came from, they were of course very > apologetic. Apparently they are working in an environment with broken glass > all around them. Sheesh! > > Cheers, > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 16:43:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rashidah Z. Hakeem" Subject: Margin settings Greetings to all, I am taking the USDA Indexing Course and I am using MSWord 6.01 for preparing lessons. One of the lessons requires me to set the left margin at 10 and the right margin at 45 to achieve a 35 character wide line @ 10 characters per inch. I have optional measurements in inches, picas and points. How can I do this? I do not own a typewriter. ******************************************************************************** Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org M E C C A (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:25:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Margin settings Rashidah, ain word or any other word processing program you can mimic a typewriter by selecting a monospaced type. These are fonts that take up the same space for each letter regardless of its width, i.e., an "i" and an "m" take up the same amount of space on the line. These fonts are usually some form of courier, typewriter courier for example or they may be prefaced with a term like "tax" because individuals who need to manipulate coulums of figures prefer these types for spreadsheets and tables because they don't require setting numerous decimal tabs. Good Luck, Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Howard R." Subject: Re: Margin settings I am considering taking a USDA course on indexing. Do you find it worthwhile? Would you recommend it? Howard Rashidah Z. Hakeem wrote: > > Greetings to all, > I am taking the USDA Indexing Course and I am using MSWord 6.01 for > preparing lessons. One of the lessons requires me to set the left > margin at 10 and the right margin at 45 to achieve a 35 character wide > line @ 10 characters per inch. I have optional measurements in inches, > picas and points. How can I do this? I do not own a typewriter. > > ******************************************************************************* * > Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org > M E C C A > (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ > LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 > ******************************************************************************* * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:27:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: botanical names Victoria, Re: > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ vs. ^A. lanulosa^, 65 or > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ and ^A. lanulosa^, compared, 65 > How about "species compared" ???? Then re: >New Question 2: But here's another twist: A. millefolium is actually the >preferred species name, used exclusively after the the definition of A. >lanulosa as equal (and later slightly contradicting himself in a caution >against diploid mutations). Would there be any room for switching the two >genus names in the parentheses (thus taking them out of alphabetical order): I wouldn't. However, as your Question 3 implied, I could see cross referencing ^Achillea millefolium^ to Yarrow, putting the page number for ^Achillea lanulosa^, and then ^See also^ Yarrow: ^Achillea millefolium^. ^See^ Yarrow ^Achillea lanulosa^, 65. ^See also^ Yarrow Then, as you suggested, your Yarrow entry could be: Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^) ^A. lanulosa^ compared to, 65 And since the ^A. lanulosa^ comes out at or near the top of the subentries, it looks quite reasonable to me. Amazing how much you can play with these!!! Best, Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 18:42:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Advice for a newcomer I think we should all save Rica's advice and trot it out whenever someone asks a similar question. It was excellent--including the time one should expect it to take to "get into" the business. As for the USDA course, I have seen the curriculum and I am VERY impressed with it. There are a lot of little things one needs to know to work as a freelance indexer, and the course covers a lot of these little things while teaching the big concepts. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:02:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Re: Ethical dilemma I'm not an indexer yet, but I feel a need to put in my two cents' worth. It's very hard to work for a company that does not value the standards you uphold. I am in that situation with my current position, and I would not wish it on anyone. You'll hate those people if they don't recognize what it means to produce a quality product, and give you the time and resources to do the job well.