From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:32:13.80 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705A" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:34 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:20:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Classification Problem Greetings All: I have a question that I hope is appropriate for this list. You may recall that I recently wrote some proposals for cataloging three separate projects. One of the projects finally started this week. I've come up with one possibility for the classification of the books (it's a mental health collection of about 1500 books), but wondered if you could suggest a better method classify the books than I have. My intention is to organize the books by subject matter (this would include subjects such a spsychiatry, psychotherapy, etc.) and a numbering system such as P100.10, Most of the books do have the CIP (Catalog in Print info), but a few do not. If I were to use the CIP info, there would be far too many unique subjects to label, so it seems easier to classify them by topics that would include a larger number of books. The collection will grow (and is being moved into a larger room next month while I'm in W-S) so there needs to be some flexibility with the numbering system that is chosen. I'd like to start organizing the books by next week, so any suggestions on a better way to do this would be appreciated in the next few days. Hope that I expressed the problem clearly. If I didn't, please let me know. Any tips that suggest a better way of classifying and identifying each book would be greatfully appreciated, especially if it's received by the beginnign of next week. Thanks. Happy May Day. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 06:24:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Walking in W-S I have a question for someone from the W-S area. Could someone send me an email and let me know if there are any areas that are nice for walking near the hotel? I will see if I can find something on the 'Net for a map, but would appreciate knowing if there is anything (besides "City Sidewalks" as the song goes) for walking before the Conference each morning. Any info would be helpful. If you have any maps of the city that you could mail me, I'll give you my email address. Any thoughts on good walks to take from the Hotel before classes each day would be helpful. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:27:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: W-S Accommodations Hi, Does anybody know of some nice accommodations near W-S that are reasonably priced? Something hopefully within 15 miles of the conference. Thanks, Kamm Schreiner ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 09:06:58 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura Power Organization: Vanderbilt University Library Subject: advice Hi, everyone. I am brand new to the list and brand new to indexing. Couls someone please recommend 1 or 2 good basic how-to books on indexing? Also, is there a course I could take at home or any courses offered specifically on indexing? I am a cataloger, and I will be taking a course on indexing further down the line at grad school, but I want to jump in now. Thanks in advance for your help. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: FAQ--oops, sorry for the empty message! INDEX-L FAQ Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv: INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9703a (for the first week in March, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu. public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu. When you reach the gopher take this directory path: /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979. Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991. Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval, 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980. Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991. 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (This is a limited list. See the ASI Web Site for a more extensive listing: http://www.well.com/user/asi) FOR PCS (DOS-BASED) IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, NY 14618 (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com wINDEX Watch City Software 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com FOR MACS HyperIndex Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@indycms.iupui.edu 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516 Tuition: (includes all materials) $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) Basic Indexing Skills Video Susan Holbert/Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com Fee: $149 + $7 shipping + $7.45 tax for MA residents only 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS American Society of Indexers (ASI) P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: 206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com E-Mail: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/ Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada Box 744 Station F Toronto Ontario Canada M4Y 2N6 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services (NFAIS) 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org Society of Indexers 1 Mermaid Court LONDON SE1 1HR phone +44 (0) 171 4034947 fax +44 (0) 171 4038988 Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI) GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne Victoria 3001, Australia E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au URL http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS America Online (800) 227-6364 CompuServe (800) 848-8199 Delphi (800) 495-4005 GEnie (800) 638-9636 The Well (415) 332-4335 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391 See also. Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing, December, 1993, 63-70. Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi Indexing Conference on the Well http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures. 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan, 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders. 1983--Award not given. 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky. 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook. 1987--Award not given. 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques. 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed.. 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates. 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property. 1993--Award not given. 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:15:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Classification Problem Willa: It would seem to me that the first concern would be to classify these books in such a way that the person who comes after you can continue it. If you make up your own classification system, you will have to leave explanations of what you mean by psychotherapy, etc. I should think it would be easier just to use LC and then you will only need to classify those that have no CIP and with a little bit of luck you will find that some good soul at BU or UMass or BC has already done that too. Gerri Gray ghg@loyola.edu Reference Librarian Loyola/Notre Dame Library Baltimore, MD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 08:43:19 -0700 Reply-To: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: trying to UNSUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: <199705010253.TAA00596@mx5.u.washington.edu> When all else fails, send an email message directly to the Listowner, Charlotte Skuster, at skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu and she can do it for you. If the computer address under which you originally subscribed to a listserv has changed AT ALL (e.g., your account has migrated to a different computer in your system but your 'public' email address has not changed), the listserv may not recognize commands from your current server. This is what happened to me on another list as the university computer system expanded. The only solution in that case is to contact the listowner directly. (I'm not sure this explanation is technically correct, but it's what I've experienced.) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Joyce Constantine wrote: > Can anyone help? I've tried repeatedly to unsubscribe from Index-l using > the instructions they gave when I signed up, but my e-mail all bounces. Can > anyone tell me an alternate way off this listserv? > > getting desperate > > Thanks! > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:59:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Howard Subject: STC Region 8 Conference - Call for Presentations Hi all! I'm a technical writer and an indexer of technical books, and I am a regular subscriber to this list. For any of you techy indexers, I thought you might be interested in presenting at or attending this conference being held in my fair city! ---------------------------------------------------------------- The 1997 STC* Region 8 Conference will be held in Santa Barbara, California on November 21-22 at the beautiful Fess Parker's Red Lion Resort. Pre-conference workshops will take place on November 20. We invite you to share your experiences and expertise in the technical communication field by being a presenter at the conference. You'll increase your visibility, enhance your resume, and get a discount off the conference registration! Presenters who are not STC members, or who are STC members outside of Region 8, are welcome. Conference Theme ---------------- Our theme is "Riding the Wave!". As technological advances allow us to deliver information faster and through more mediums than ever before, and as the technologies we're writing about are advancing more rapidly, we must still remain true to our basic purpose of clear, effective communication that meets the needs of our audiences. We must move forward on the crest of technology while balancing on our experience and skills. Presentation Topics ------------------- You can give a presentation in any of four areas: The Basics, Tools and Technology, Professional Growth, and People to People. We're looking for presentations that address the new technologies and new career possibilities with an eye toward maintaining our core skills and delivering the right information to the right audiences. Presentation Formats -------------------- You can give your presentation in one of several formats: an individual talk, a panel discussion, a progression, or a workshop. Deadline for Entries -------------------- Send your entry to Angela Howard, Program Chair at the address below by June 30. Specify the names of all participants and the presentation format you have chosen. If your presentation is based on a paper, send an abstract and an outline; otherwise, send a proposal for your presentation that includes an outline and the objectives of the presentation. The Program Committee will make its decisions and notify presenters by July 31. More detailed information on the Call for Presentations is provided on our web site at http://stc.org/region8/snb/reg8conf. Or, you can email Angela Howard at AMHoward@aol.com. * For information on STC (Society for Technical Communication), see the STC web site at http://www.stc-va.org. _________________________________________ Angela Howard, Program Chair 1997 STC Region 8 Conference 7320 Freeman Place Goleta, CA 93117 _________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 12:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mgenuardi@MAIL.CASI.STI.NASA.GOV Subject: JOB ANNOUNCEMENT -- Database Abstractor/Indexer (on site) NASA Center for AeroSpace Information NCI Information Systems, Inc. Linthicum, Maryland ABSTRACTOR/INDEXER (on site position) Job Description: As part of the Database Creation Section of the NASA Center for AeroSpace Information, provides analysis and subject indexing of scientific and technical literature; edits and writes informative and descriptive abstracts. Other areas of responsibility include the identification and assessment of emerging technical concepts for inclusion in a controlled indexing vocabulary (the NASA Thesaurus); and providing general support to other Database Creation activities. Environment: The NASA Center for AeroSpace Information (CASI), located (one mile west of BWI Airport) between Baltimore and Washington DC, has been supporting the NASA and aerospace research community for over 35 years, providing literature acquisition and processing, database design, and document delivery services. The NASA STI Database includes over 3 million records corresponding to journal and report literature in the areas of aerospace and supporting areas of engineering, astronomy and Earth sciences, life sciences, and fundamental areas of physics and chemistry. The role of the Database Creation section is to carry out acquisition, cataloging, document scanning, subject analysis (abstracting/indexing), and lexicography activities. (See the NASA STI homepage at http://www.sti.nasa.gov/STI-homepage.html) Qualifications: Required: Bachelors degree with at least 25 credit-hours in the hard sciences or engineering, OR at least 2 years experience in indexing scientific/technical literature. Candidate should have a solid knowledge of fundamental scientific concepts and some applications areas. In addition, the candidate must have strong analytical and writing skills, and should be able to broaden his/her technical knowledge with little training support. (General keyboard/computer skills are also necessary.) Preferred: Work experience in database or book indexing and formal written communication; knowledge of database retrieval methods and bibliographic cataloging a plus. Salary and Benefits: Salary is commensurate with experience. Includes a comprehensive benefits package. Application: Applicants should submit a resume by May 31 (preferably by fax) to: NASA Center for Aerospace Information NCI Information Systems, Inc. Attn: June Silvester 800 Elkridge Landing Road Linthicum, Maryland 21090-2934 fax# (301) 621-0134 e-mail: jsilvester@sti.nasa.gov and mgenuardi@sti.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:13:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Classification Problem In-Reply-To: <199705011213.FAA21107@mail5.netcom.com> My only suggestion would be to use the cataloging numbers from the National Library of Medicine rather than the Library of Congress. Most medical books usually give both numbers in the CIP You might want to check MeSH the thesaurus from the National Library of Medicine for some organization hints. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Wed, 30 Apr 1997, Willa MacAllen wrote: > Greetings All: > > I have a question that I hope is appropriate for this list. > > You may recall that I recently wrote some proposals for cataloging three > separate projects. One of the projects finally started this week. > > I've come up with one possibility for the classification of the books > (it's a mental health collection of about 1500 books), but wondered if > you could suggest a better method classify the books than I have. > > My intention is to organize the books by subject matter (this would > include subjects such a spsychiatry, psychotherapy, etc.) and a numbering > system such as P100.10, > > Most of the books do have the CIP (Catalog in Print info), but a few do > not. If I were to use the CIP info, there would be far too many unique > subjects to label, so it seems easier to classify them by topics that > would include a larger number of books. The collection will grow (and is > being moved into a larger room next month while I'm in W-S) so there > needs to be some flexibility with the numbering system that is chosen. > > I'd like to start organizing the books by next week, so any suggestions > on a better way to do this would be appreciated in the next few days. > > Hope that I expressed the problem clearly. If I didn't, please let me > know. > > Any tips that suggest a better way of classifying and identifying each > book would be greatfully appreciated, especially if it's received by the > beginnign of next week. > > Thanks. > > Happy May Day. > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > Librarian/Technical Writer > Boston > macallen@tiac.net > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 11:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Newlin Subject: Prepositions in subentries Hi, everyone: I have been reading this list for about six months. I'm a technical editor for a computer networking company and my "specialty" is indexing. I don't create the indexes; I edit them and establish standards for them. My question is about prepositions in subentries. I've been editing indexes to include them. Some examples: definition of examples of settings for I've checked all the usual index style manuals (Chicago, Nancy Mulvaney's book, etc.) and I can find no clear discussion about whether this use of prepositons is now somewhat "passe" in terms of style. I can see where the examples I cited could be "cleaner" by eliminating the prepositions: definition (or "defined???") examples settings I'm setting down our style guidelines on paper, and I'd like some guidance from you all about what would be most appropriate for our content. Also, would it be better to say "defined" rather than "definition?" I presume that an index, to be consistent, shouldn't contain both words??? Thanks for your comments. Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 13:14:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett Subject: Re: Chinese names (again) Carol Roberts wrote: > Although this is something I would ordinarily query the author about, > sounds like the author doesn't know which of these names have been > westernized. This is true, and he tells me he got it wrong in a previous book. > If there are a lot of names that are simply unresolvable, maybe it would > make the most sense to treat them all one way or the other (say, as if > they're not westernized) and add a comment about it in a headnote to the > index. I am treating names as if they are westernized unless they conform to the Wade-Giles system, such as Mao Tse-tung. Do you think this make sense? > You didn't say what the book is about, so I don't know whether you're > confident that you're dealing with Chinese names only--or whether there are > also Korean and Vietnamese names. The book is about Asian-American education, so there are names other than Chinese. The author was particularly concerned about the Chinese ones. Thanks for your comments, Nan Badgett dba Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 14:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Prepositions in subentries This is one of those topics that few indexers fully agree upon. I find myself battling with myself, even though I fall usually into the YES prepositions group: I like prepositions because they clarify the relationship between the heading and subheading. I tend to use nouns in prepositional phrases as subheads, or gerunds without prepositions if I am trying to save space in a tight index. Some topics lend themselves to gerund subheads (for me, gardening books fall into this category: Roses: fertilizing; growing; pruning, etc.) better than others. I think it depends on the topic of the book... no one format works for every book as far as the preposition/no preposition rule. In historical indexes, those pesky prepositions often clarify nuances in the text: Smith, John murder of versus Smith, John murder by The need for the preposition here seems straightforward to me. ("Smith, John: murdering" might be equivalent to "murder of"). Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: advice Laura, The ASI web site (http://www.well.com/user/asi/) has a bibliography of indexing books, and information on courses and workshops. You may also find other useful bits of information on our site, such as and indexing FAQ and a list of indexing software. Neva Part-time ASI web site fan and Web committee member At 09:06 AM 5/1/97 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, everyone. I am brand new to the list and brand new to indexing. >Couls someone please recommend 1 or 2 good basic how-to books on >indexing? [snip] < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS njsmith@bga.com DataSmiths Information Services voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 15:08:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Prepositions in subentries Nancy At 11:02 AM 5/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >My question is about prepositions in subentries. I've been >editing indexes to include them. As Barbara said, indexers do not agree on this. In indented indexes I use prepositions when needed for clarity, otherwise not. If I do use them, I put them at the end if it is possible. In run-in indexes I tend to use the prepositions because I think the index is easier to read. That's the fast version. Neva < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS njsmith@bga.com DataSmiths Information Services voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:13:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura M Gottlieb Subject: Job announcement: Baltimore 1 May 1997 Hi, Index-L-ers: The University of Wisconsin Library School was sent this job announcement with a cover letter saying that the Alternative Press Center has had an extremely difficult time trying to fill this job. I know that the application date on it has expired, but given their difficulties in filling this job, I thought that any of you who are in the Balto. area and are interested might still be able to apply. Good luck! --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer JOB ANNOUNCEMENT The Alternative Press Center is looking for an information activist to join its small, progressive staff in Baltimore, Maryland. The center is a non-profit organization with a 30 year history as a leading authority on the alternative press, publishing the respectable _Alternative Press Index_ and maintaining one of the world's foremost collections of alternative reading materials. Compensation for this full-time in-house position beginning June 1, 1997 is $18,149 with health coverage and paid vacation. RESPONSIBILITIES: Indexing. Subject categorization of periodical articles and related data entry. Editing. Review of material for inclusion in the Index and copy editing of the Index and other Center publications. Administration. Completion of day to day tasks, staffing of library, and oversight of one or more Center functions such as database management, finances, library development, marketing, or desktop publishing. QUALIFICATIONS: BA, or equivalent experience. MA in social sciences, humanities, computer science, or library science preferred. Familiarity with progressive periodicals, current events, and social movements. Ability to work independently with attention to detail. Experience with word processing and database software. Skill at writing, editing, bookkeeping, office management, promotion, and/or graphic design. Previous indexing or abstracting experience preferred. Commitment to democracy, diversity, progressive causes, and social change. APPLICATIONS: Send a letter and resume with names, phone numbers, and addresses of two personal and two work references by 30 April 1997. No phone calls or email, please. Hiring Committee Alternative Press Center P.O. Box 33109 Baltimore, MD 21218 USA The Alternative Press encourages applicants of diverse age, ethnicity, gender, nationality, physical ability, religion, sexuality, and veteran status. For more info, visit their web page at http://www.igc.apc.org/altpress/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 17:56:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Birding at the conference A while back, several people expressed some interest in bird watching in Winston-Salem. I don't know if our various schedules for the conference will permit a big outing as a group, but perhaps we can manage to find someone to go birding with by posting notes on the bulletin board when we get to the conference. Thomas Mowbray, head of the W-C Audubon Society, was nice enough to call me with info on local birding. Although the peak of the migration will be over by the time of the conference, he did say there will still be some good birding: late migrants and summer residents. Here are a few birding spots he mentioned: Tanglewood Park (great birding he says, but about a 20 min. drive from the hotel) Reynolda Gardens Miller Park (almost within walking distance) Washington Park Since I'm coming to W-S the Sunday before the conference, I'll try to get directions to these places and have copies for people who are interested. In the meantime, if you want to discuss this with me further, let's talk off-list. BTW, we don't have to be *too* disappointed that the drive to the coast is too long, because Mowbray said all the good stuff will be gone by 5/14. Please don't feel you have to be an experienced birder to come along on any of these outings. I, for one, don't mind sharing my binoculars and spotting scope. :-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:01:13 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Prepositions in subentries In-Reply-To: <199705011803.LAA03593@dns1.mcn.org> >I can find no clear >discussion about whether this use of prepositons is now >somewhat "passe" in terms of style. It is really not a style question, but one of clarity. I too don't use them if they aren't needed, but depending on the wording of the main entry and the nature of the subentry, they are frequently necessary. One rule of thumb is that if there is a preposition attached to each subentry, but it is the SAME preposition throughout, I can (usually, but not always) safely delete the prepositions, because all the subentries then have the same kind of relationship to the main. I also find it true that in the run-on (vs. indented) style, which need to read along well, preps. are used more. Though I try to use preps. after the subentry rather than before (esp. in indented style), sometimes the meaning changes too much in that position, so I must use it before. >Also, would it be better to say "defined" rather than >"definition?" I presume that an index, to be consistent, >shouldn't contain both words??? The main thing is to be consistent within a given index, but certainly houses have styles on this. I've heard it said to use "defined" in indented style, "definition of" in run-on, but some scholarly run-ons I've worked on have required "defined" as house style. But definitely, if you use "definition" it should have the preposition following. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 21:02:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Job announcement: Baltimore That salary is awfully low. I can see why they're having a hard time filling it. On Thu, 1 May 1997 17:13:21 EDT Laura M Gottlieb writes: >1 May 1997 > >Hi, Index-L-ers: > The University of Wisconsin Library School was sent this job >announcement with a cover letter saying that the Alternative Press >Center >has had an extremely difficult time trying to fill this job. I know >that >the application date on it has expired, but given their difficulties >in >filling this job, I thought that any of you who are in the Balto. area >and are interested might still be able to apply. Good luck! --Laura >Moss >Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer > > JOB ANNOUNCEMENT >The Alternative Press Center is looking for an information activist to >join its small, progressive staff in Baltimore, Maryland. The center >is >a non-profit organization with a 30 year history as a leading >authority >on the alternative press, publishing the respectable _Alternative >Press >Index_ and maintaining one of the world's foremost collections of >alternative reading materials. Compensation for this full-time >in-house >position beginning June 1, 1997 is $18,149 with health coverage and >paid >vacation. > >RESPONSIBILITIES: >Indexing. Subject categorization of periodical articles and related >data >entry. >Editing. Review of material for inclusion in the Index and copy >editing >of the Index and other Center publications. >Administration. Completion of day to day tasks, staffing of library, >and >oversight of one or more Center functions such as database >management, finances, library development, marketing, or desktop >publishing. > >QUALIFICATIONS: >BA, or equivalent experience. MA in social sciences, humanities, >computer science, or library science preferred. >Familiarity with progressive periodicals, current events, and social >movements. >Ability to work independently with attention to detail. >Experience with word processing and database software. >Skill at writing, editing, bookkeeping, office management, promotion, >and/or graphic design. >Previous indexing or abstracting experience preferred. >Commitment to democracy, diversity, progressive causes, and social >change. > >APPLICATIONS: >Send a letter and resume with names, phone numbers, and addresses of >two >personal and two work references by 30 April 1997. No phone calls or >email, please. > >Hiring Committee >Alternative Press Center >P.O. Box 33109 >Baltimore, MD 21218 USA > >The Alternative Press encourages applicants of diverse age, ethnicity, >gender, nationality, physical ability, religion, sexuality, and >veteran >status. > >For more info, visit their web page at >http://www.igc.apc.org/altpress/ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 20:45:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: FAQ: For Laura, especially, whose address I've lost! Hello, Laura. Perhaps you've already seen this valuable posting, our FAQ. Books, software and more mentioned. Great for those new to indexing. Cheers, ------------------- David Robert Austen Masters Degree Program in Information Science Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana 47405 U.S.A. Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 -------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 10:35:04 -0400 From: Charlotte Skuster To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: FAQ--oops, sorry for the empty message! INDEX-L FAQ Contents: 1. Index-l procedures 2. Netiquette 3. Archives 4. Books on indexing 5. What software do indexers use? 6. Courses or training for indexers (outside of library schools) 7. Professional societies/organizations for indexers 8. Network connections 9. Internet Sites 10.Winners of the ASI/H.W. Wilson Company Award for Indexing 1. INDEX-L PROCEDURES There are three addresses you need to use for interaction with index-l: To take part in a discussion or send a message to the list (a.k.a. group or subscribers), address your e-mail to index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a message directly to the moderator (a.k.a. Charlotte), address your e-mail to cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu or Skuster@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu To send a command to the listserv, address your e-mail to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu. As subscribers, you are able to send commands to the listserv to see the archives, see a list of subscribers, stop your mail for a while, or a number of other options. To get a list of listserv commands and what they do, send the following message to the listserv: INFO REFCARD Do not sign your name or put anything else in the message. 2. Netiquette Index-l is un-moderated most of the time. This means the listowner does not see the messages before subscribers do. There are +/-800 subscribers to index-l. It is a very diverse group of free-lance indexers, students, academics, in-house indexers, technical writers, editors, and others. The following are guidelines to use when deciding if a posting is appropriate. ---Any topic related to indexing theory or practice or the business of indexing is appropriate. This includes back-of-the- book, periodical, database, electronic, or an indeterminate future form of indexing. It also includes meeting announcements, job postings, training opportunities, and questions/answers about software/equipment. ---Inappropriate postings include messages completely unrelated to indexing. Examples might be: politics, religion, movie recommendations, tricks my cat/child/spouse/dog/neighbor can do, dinner arrangements during a conference. (This list is not exhaustive and if any of the above named topics can be legitimately related to indexing, it may appropriate.) ---Also inappropriate are advertisements or employment wanted messages. --Other guidelines related to keeping the list free of clutter and strife ---Refrain from sending comments without content such as "I agree" or "right on" or "me too", "thanks", or "welcome". This type of message is best sent directly to the person you are responding to. (An exception to this would be a global thanks for information or assistance provided by several people.) ---When surveying the group for information that requires a brief answer, such as "how many of you are librarians?" or "who uses XYZ software?", please invite respondents to reply to you directly and offer to summarize for the list. ---Avoid quoting long messages when responding to a post. Quote segments just long enough to let others know what you are responding to. ---Fire prevention. If possible, try not to respond to postings hastily--take time to edit your message for phrases that may appear harsh or critical. Also count to ten before replying to a message that offends. Chances are no offense was intended. If you still feel offended, reply to the person personally. ---If you are having technical problems, please contact the listowner directly (cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu). ---For a more extensive treatment of netiquette issues see the following site on the world wide web: http://www.fau.edu/rinaldi/netiquette.html 3. ARCHIVES There are two ways to look at the archives: ---Received directly from the listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Send the following message to the listserv: index index-l. You will receive a list of available archives. When you decide what you would like to see, send the following message to the listserv: get log9703a (for the first week in March, for example) ---On the library gopher at Georgia Southern University: Messages are stored here from the start of the listserv in 1992 through the most recent preceding month. A WAIS searching program is available to search through all years at once or through a selected year. The GSU gopher is located through a gopher client at gopher.gasou.edu or by telnet to gsvms2.cc.gasou.edu. public login (INFO), and then look for the gopher program on the the main information services menu. When you reach the gopher take this directory path: /Georgia Southern University/Henderson Library/Other Organizations/Index-L 4. BOOKS ON INDEXING Bonura, L. The Art of Indexing. Wiley, 1994 Knight, G. N. Indexing, The Art Of. Allen & Unwin, 1979. Lancaster, F. W. Indexing and Abstracting in Theory and Practice. U of Illinois Press, 1991. Lancaster, F. W. Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval, 2nd ed. Information resources Press, 1986 Mulvany, Nancy C. Indexing Books, University of Chicago Press, 1994. Wellisch, H. Indexing and Abstracting, an International Bibliography ABC-Clio, 1980. Wellisch, H. Indexing from A to Z. H. W. Wilson, 1991. 5. WHAT SOFTWARE DO INDEXERS USE? (This is a limited list. See the ASI Web Site for a more extensive listing: http://www.well.com/user/asi) FOR PCS (DOS-BASED) IN>SORT Kensa Software P.O. Box 4415 Northbrook, IL 60065 (708) 559-0297 Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com Cindex Indexing Research Box 18609 Rochester, NY 14618 (716) 461-5530 FAX: (716) 442-3924 ircindex@aol.com wINDEX Watch City Software 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com FOR MACS HyperIndex Andre De Tienne 7590 Harcourt Road #106 Indianapolis, IN 46260 (317) 274-2033 adetienn@indycms.iupui.edu 6. COURSES OR TRAINING FOR INDEXERS (OUTSIDE OF LIBRARY SCHOOLS) Graduate School of the USDA Correspondence Programs, Ag Box 9911 Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 (202) 720-7123 TDD: (202) 690-1516 Tuition: (includes all materials) $281,00--Basic Indexing (beginning) $275.00--Applied Indexing (more advanced) Basic Indexing Skills Video Susan Holbert/Indexing Services 24 Harris St. Waltham, MA 02154-6105 (617) 893-0514 susanh@world.std.com Fee: $149 + $7 shipping + $7.45 tax for MA residents only 7. PROFESSIONAL SOCIETIES/ORGANIZATIONS FOR INDEXERS American Society of Indexers (ASI) P.O. Box 48267 Seattle, WA 98148-0267 (206) 241-9196 FAX: 206) 727-6430 E-MAIL: asi@well.com E-Mail: asi@well.com http://www.well.com/user/asi/ Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada Box 744 Station F Toronto Ontario Canada M4Y 2N6 National Federation of Abstracting and Information Services (NFAIS) 1518 Walnut Street Suite 307 Philadelphia PA 19102-3403 (215) 893-1561 FAX: (215) 893-1564 E-MAIL: nfais@hslc.org Society of Indexers 1 Mermaid Court LONDON SE1 1HR phone +44 (0) 171 4034947 fax +44 (0) 171 4038988 Australian Society of Indexers (AusSI) GPO Box 1251L, Melbourne Victoria 3001, Australia E-MAIL:mindexer@interconnect.com.au URL http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi 8. NETWORK CONNECTIONS America Online (800) 227-6364 CompuServe (800) 848-8199 Delphi (800) 495-4005 GEnie (800) 638-9636 The Well (415) 332-4335 Real/Time Communications (512) 459-4391 See also. Maren, M. "The Age of E-Mail. Home Office Computing, December, 1993, 63-70. Tetzeli, R. "Is Going On-line Worth the Money?" FORTUNE 129(12):104-105, 108. June 13, 1994. 9. Internet Sites Gopher Index-L Archives gopher eagle1.cc.gasou.edu World Wide Web American Society of Indexers http://www.well.com/user/asi Australian Society of Indexers http://godzilla.zeta.org.au/~aussi Indexing Conference on the Well http://www.well.com/user/nmulvany/index.htm 10. WINNERS OF THE ASI/H.W. WILSON COMPANY AWARD FOR INDEXING 1979--Hans H. Wellisch, author and indexer; John Wiley, publisher: The Conversion of Scripts: Its Nature, History and Utilization 1980--Linda I. Solow, indexer; M.I.T. Press, publisher: Beyond Orpheus:Studies in Musical Structures. 1981--Delight Ansley, indexer; Random House Publisher: Cosmos by Carl Sagan, 1982--Catherine Fix, indexer; Wm. Saunders Company, publisher: Diagnosis of Bone and Joint Disorders. 1983--Award not given. 1984--Trish Yancey, indexer; Information Handling Services, publisher: Index and Directory of U.S. Industry Standards 1985--Sydney W. Cohen, indexer; Random House, publisher: The Experts Speak by Cerf and Navasky. 1986--Marjorie Hyslop, indexer; American Society for Metals, publisher: Metals Handbook. 1987--Award not given. 1988--Jeanne Moody, indexer; National Wildlife Institute, publisher: Raptor Management Techniques. 1989--Philip James, indexer; Butterworths, publisher: Medicine for the Practicing Physician, 2nd ed.. 1990--Marcia Carlson, indexer; Cornell University Press, publisher: Strategic Nuclear Arms & Arms Control Debates. 1991--Daniels, Nancy L., indexer; Van Nostrand Reinhold, publisher:Beyond Public Architecture: Strategies for Design Evaluation. 1992--Johnson, Rachel Jo., indexer; Matthew Bender, publisher: American Law of Real Property. 1993--Award not given. 1994--Deminna, Patricia, indexer; U. of California, publisher: Carnal Israel: Reading Sex in Talmudic Culture by Daniel Boyarin 1995--White, Martin L., indexer; University of Chicago Press, publisher; The Promise of Pragmatism: Modernism and the Crisis of Knowledge and Authority. 1996--Award not given ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 02:47:48 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ranjit Sahai Subject: Page Number Order Format ?? Hi everybody, First let me introduce myself. My name is Manjit K. Sahai. I just finished my USDA Indexing course about couple of weeks back. I have not still taken the final exam. yet. Yesterday I got my first indexing job. The client wants me do the index in the page number order. Then he plans to do the embedding on his own in Ventura software. I plan to the index in Macrex. I have a few questions regarding page number order format. 1.......Most of the times, main headings have page number only when they do not have any subheadings. My QUESTION is....do I have to put the page number with all the main headings (whether they have sub headings or not) in order to maintain page number order for my client? How do I make sure when the main headings which have sub headings along with them get embedded in Ventura, the page number is NOT printed along with them? 2.......Macrex manual says that in page order number screen the ADD Entry prompt begins with "a'. Does this "a" get printed in front of each entry on the final printed version of the index? I hope my questions are clear enough. I would appreciate any help. Regards. Manjit K. Sahai (Mrs.) RAM Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:07:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Cox Subject: Re: Job announcement: Baltimore No wonder they can't fill the position! Who the hell with a MA is going to work full-time for $18,000. If they did they would just be lowering the salary on other jobs for the rest of us! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 05:10:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Page Number Order Format ?? In a message dated 97-05-02 00:58:00 EDT, Manjit Sahai wrote: << 1.......Most of the times, main headings have page number only when they do not have any subheadings. My QUESTION is....do I have to put the page number with all the main headings (whether they have sub headings or not) in order to maintain page number order for my client? How do I make sure when the main headings which have sub headings along with them get embedded in Ventura, the page number is NOT printed along with them? >> In creating this index you should type all entries just as you would for any other index. When it is completed, you would go to the Utility menu and select the option to create a PNO (Page Number Order) file. It is literally that simple. Working on the index in alphabetic order allows you to see how the entries will hang together. Rarely does an indexer have to actually create the index in page number order -- the option to work in page number order is better used when updating an existing index or to repaginate from temporary locators (for an index begun before final page proofs were available). << 2.......Macrex manual says that in page order number screen the ADD Entry prompt begins with "a'. Does this "a" get printed in front of each entry on the final printed version of the index? >> When supplying a client with a page number order index, they often do not request a printed copy of the index. If, however, you do give them a printed index, you may do so without the "A" appearing. Please do not hesitate to let me know if you have further questions. Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office (North America only) For Australia, Nw Zealand and South East Asia, e-mail mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world, e-mail hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Macrex, the choice of professionals around the world ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 05:03:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Walking in W-S For all those going to W-S, I agree with the heading on Page 1 of KEYWORDS, which came yesterday. In fact, this may be obvious, but if you are planning on walking at all while you are in W-S, you should not only bring good walking shoes, but comfortable loose clothing and a water bottle! This must be my AMC leadership training kicking in , but it is good advice to plan and pack wisely so that we can enjoy the city as much as possible. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 04:57:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Cataloging Problem Thanks to all for your suggestions. I will be modifying my original plan to follow MeSH. As with everything in life, cataloging is a fairly subjective process, depending on the nature of the company for which it is being done.... BTW, FYI, the collection was started somewhat differently than most library collections. The person for whom I'm working is a doctor and reviews medical books. He's received the bulk of the 1500 books as a result of reviewing them! An interesting method to use for starting a medical (or any) library! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 07:47:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MTOWERY@AOL.COM Subject: SIG meetings/W-S Just a reminder: The History/Archaeology SIG will meet 5:30-5:45 Sat. eve in the hotel lobby. We'll go out to eat together and discuss plans. There will be a general SIG callout meeting at 9:30 Fri. eve (after dinner with Julia) at a meeting room in the hotel (check the flyers for location). This will be a chance for folks to start new SIGs, join established ones, ask questions, etc. See you there! Margie Towery ASI SIG Coordinator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:11:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julia Bradford Subject: Re: Local help for bird watchers Hi.... Carol Roberts wrote about bird watching possibilites in Winston-Salem....I have forwarded her message to Marilyn Shuping who is an avid bird watcher here in Winston. She works with me in the Wake Forest University Library. She has agreed to help in anyway possible and will be contacting Carol. Stay tuned. Also, if there is any other information you desire to know about the area please contact me. Julia W. Bradford Telephone: (910) 759-5472 Special Collections Assistant FAX: (910) 759-9831 Z. Smith Reynolds Library E-mail: Julia_Bradford@mta.wfu.edu Wake Forest University Winston-Salem, NC 27109 "Time is fun when you are having flies." Kermit the Frog ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 10:49:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Old Salem Index-Lers: For those of you who have never been to Winston-Salem before, I would like to recommend Old Salem to you. It is a preservation and restoration of the original 18th century town of Salem founded by the Moravians in 1766. If you do not have a Moravian star to hang on your porch or over your door on a flag pole at Christmas (as I do for I have no porch), you must acquire one in Old Salem. You will be the envy of your neighborhood. For those of you who don't celebrate Christmas, it's a great Winter Solstice decoration. I wish I were going to be there to meet all you wonderful people I have met on this list, but maybe next year. Do enjoy and try not to think about how so much of the city (including the Wake Forest campus) was built with tobacco money. Many of my family were the dirt farmers who grew tobacco. No one in the family grows tobacco any more. Gerri Gray Reference Librarian and Aspiring Indexer Baltimore, MD (but originally from North Carolina near Winston-Salem) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Classification Problem Willa, Are you classifying for browsability or for shelf location? In either case, abandoning a system already in place may be short-sighted. The fact that your collection of books will grow should be a red flag. Eventually, many more topics than you have now will need placement, and you may later have to revert to the classifications now on CIP info. I'd use what's available for in-the-stacks shelving and be creative only when making smaller, transitory, "Take a Look at This" browsable, up-front collections that feature "This Week's Attractions." If you are using volunteers without special training, be sure to point out that the differences in numbers on the CIP data. Otherwise, you may find "classification numbers" on book spines that are in fact the LC card order numbers. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 11:43:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Usability roundtable If you plan to sign up for the usability roundtable at the conference and have not yet done so, please do so soon. I need to know how many copies of the handouts to make. The original anouncement follows: Additional Roundtable at ASI Conference In addition to the roundtables listed on the registration form, there will be one on the usability testing of indexes on Saturday, May 17 from 12:00 noon to 1:45. The session will include both discussion and hands-on exercises of techniques for ensuring that indexes meet the expectations of their intended audiences. It goes beyond the review of the index as a stand-alone document to measure its performance in the hands of real users under real working conditions. The moderator is Dick Evans, freelance indexer. Dick is a former Human Factors Engineer for IBM, where he participated in designing and conducting usability studies on telecommunications manuals. If you have not yet submitted your registration, you can register by writing in "Usability testing" on the list of roundtables for Saturday noon. If you have already registered but would like to add this session, send a note to SCTopping@aol.com. Direct questions about the roundtable itself to Dick at Infodex@mindspring.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 14:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Foreign trade Any tips on handling accounts across national boundaries? I have a new client in England who has not worked with a U.S. indexer before. They have asked for my social security number, but I believe they really want my tax ID number (because I am incorporated). Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:02:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chinese names (again) I've always followed the guideline that it's basically the choice of the individual Asian or Asian-American person to Westernize their name or not. You can sometimes tell from the text if their whole name is given, depending on whether the last name or first names are given first. But if only the last name is there (as in a citation), and the names aren't in the bibliography, then you can't tell. At this point I query the author/editor--if there's a short list I put it in the letter; if it's all through the book I tell them to scan the names in the index to see if I got the order right (I do this for Spanish names too, by the way, about whether the last name is one or two of the three names). Of course, if your author is confused then you have a problem! The thing is that because it's an individual decision, there aren't really any rules. Wade-Giles can tell you which are the two first names, because they're hyphenated, but it doesn't really have much to do with name order. Sometimes an editor or author will make a policy for the whole book. Names of Asian people from Asia are much more likely to not be Westernized, though recently I think some people from Asia are doing it. Names of Asian-Americans are much more likely to be Westernized, though recently some people who are identifying more strongly as Asian are going back to the original word order. !!! I think your author would need to go back to his sources and find out for each author how they do it (he should have paid attention to this in the process of his research, of course.) About telling which name is the last name--I can often guess Chinese and Korean because I've had a little bit of exposure to those languages. Japanese is much harder. You could ask someone who speaks Chinese! Good luck! Hope I haven't muddied the waters even further! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Old Salem I'm going to try to spend Thursday afternoon (or maybe morning?) at Old Salem. One of my ancestors (the Stauber one) came to this country when Old Salem was originally settled. His son (I think) was the potter there, in the same pottery that has been restored! I've never been there, so I'm looking forward to a little family history. I'd enjoy going with others, so let me know if you're interested. I'm arriving Tuesay evening and attending the Macrex workshops on Thursday. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 15:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: lizmac@ma.ultranet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Elizabeth A. McCarthy" Organization: Elizabeth McCarthy Indexing Subject: Re: Old Salem This is my first reply to the list though I've been lurking since December. I would love to see Old Salem--I'll be st the advanced Cindex meeting on Thursday A.M., but would like to go that afternoon if others are interested. The early morning walks and bird watching sound good too! Elizabeth McCarthy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dick Luxner Subject: Grand Forks Herald Project --=====================_862618958==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maryann and everyone, Below is the response to my query to Donna Harman at the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology. It is the result of a suggestion by Professor Bob Korfhage at The U of Pittsburgh, also below. I think it is worth talking with her further. Dick --=====================_862618958==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:04 From: harman@rhino.ncsl.nist.gov To: dluxner@ma.ultranet.com Subject: Re: Grand Forks Flood Victim I may not be able to be much help. As I see it, they are going to have four major problems. 1) converting the microfilm to readable images. My limited experience with microfilm includes lots of poor images. 2) turning these images into electronic data. The OCR technology is not that great for this type of stuff, plus you have the poor quality images to begin with 3) converting the electronic data to a searchable form, including installing a search engine. This we may be able to help with. We have a public-domain search engine, ZPRISE, that is available if they don't want to go the commercial route. But there are also lots of commercial search engines, such as Personal Library Software that are available and good. 4) replacing the manually created metadata that is needed to complement any automatically indexed text. This includes indexing of images, etc. The problems that Grand Forks will run into are the nitty-gritty digital library problems that are the real challenges for today. It would frankly be a great project to find a library school to accept. Donna --=====================_862618958==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dick: I saw your message on ASIS-L. I can't do anything personally to help, but here is an extremely long shot that you might try. For some years now NIST, in conjunction with DOE and other agencies, has been running a series of major information retrieval projects, under the name TREC -- Text REtrieval Conference. They have been using large, full-text databases of all kinds, including a number of newspaper files. While what they have done in the past has been focused on reasonably recent material, it might be that they would consider helping, or arranging help on the Grand Forks project in exchange for the ability to use those files for some of the experiments. The person in charge of this at NIST is Donna Harman. Bob Korfhage, DIST, Univ. of Pittsburgh, korfhage@sis.pitt.edu --=====================_862618958==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" __________________________________________________ Dick Luxner, MLS - Fundraising Research Consultant PO Box 277 - Stow, Massachusetts 01775 508-562-1288 - dluxner@ma.ultranet.com Member APRA NEDRA ASIS SLA ASI ALA NENON __________________________________________________ Neither can his mind be thought to be in tune, whose words do jarre; Nor his reason in frame, whose sentence is preposterous. - Ben Jonson, 1641 --=====================_862618958==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:44:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Crank Calls Happy Friday! For the past few days, my phone has been barraged with what I think are crank calls, because the person(s) hang up without leaving a message. This has happened as much as four or five times a day for the past four days. I spoke with someone from Nynex (our local company) who reminded me about tracing calls. Apparently, I have to do that twice before I can call the complaint office to follow through on the situation. One call was traced tonite with no luck. My one concern in tracing calls is that I lead beginner hiking weekends for the Appalachian Mountain Club in New England. As a result, I get calls on daily from AMCers registering for future trips. Obviously, I don't want to offend anyone, (especially potential people interested in my trips) but I do want to resolve the situation so that the calls are stopped. Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how did you resolve it? If this isn't an appropriate list topic, let me know. Thanks in advance. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:55:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Prepositions in subentries In-Reply-To: <199705020437.XAA25824@mixcom.mixcom.com> Hi, Nancy I would say that prepositions are definitely not passe, and often enough they are necessary for meaning. Consider this example: Aristotle death Is that sub about Aristotle's death or his views on death? I do sometimes omit preps when the meaning is very clear, but more often than not I include them so the meaning of the subs will come to the reader's mind instantly and so the subs won't sound abrupt. In the examples you give, I would use those preps, although I don't think that leaving them out would be wrong, provided it were done consistently throughout a given book. And, yes, I would use either "definition of" (or just "definition") or "defined" in a given index but not both. > > definition of > examples of > settings for > > > definition (or "defined???") > examples > settings > Here's another kind of example that might reveal another reason for preferring the preps: commonplace books beauties defining personal morality literary keys personal taste vs. literary culture subjectivity of readers In that list of subs, which (if any) are types of commonplace books? Here's the entry again with preps added: commonplace books beauties as defining personal morality literary keys personal taste vs. literary culture in and subjectivity of readers With the preps present, it is easier to see that beauties and literary keys are types of commonplace books. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 22:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Chinese names (again) In-Reply-To: <199705020437.XAA25824@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I am treating names as if they are westernized unless they conform to the >Wade-Giles system, such as Mao Tse-tung. Do you think this make sense? Yes, I think that it is reasonable to construct a rule to follow in this situation and spell it out for the reader in a headnote (even giving examples, like the Mao Tse-tung one). Whatever it will take to help the reader know where to look first. I'm not sure I would (as some indexers have suggested) spend a *lot* of time trying to track down all the names, not unless you're being paid handsomely for it. My own practice is to go no further than my own office. I have lots of reference books (biog. dictionary, CD-ROM encyclopedias, etc.), and if I can't resolve a name with what's at hand, I consider it the author's and editor's responsibility, and I simply query it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 07:59:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Chinese names (again) There is an article on this subject that may be of interest to some out there: Hu Qianli. How to distinguish and catalog Chinese personal names. Cataloging and Classification Quarterly. 19 (1): 29-60. 1994. It is true that we as indexers are not required to spend oodles of time on these issues, but it is an added value that you can add to the index and that helps to make those jobs keep coming in... Be sure to tell editors that you have done this for them; believe me, they will be glad for it. Of course, there are times when one cannot be sure of the name order and then the only thing to do is to point out the problem name when you turn in the index. At 10:56 PM 5/2/97 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >I'm not sure I would (as some indexers have suggested) spend a *lot* of >time trying to track down all the names, not unless you're being paid >handsomely for it. My own practice is to go no further than my own office. >I have lots of reference books (biog. dictionary, CD-ROM encyclopedias, >etc.), and if I can't resolve a name with what's at hand, I consider it the >author's and editor's responsibility, and I simply query it. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 08:40:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Crank Calls In response to Willa and her prank calls...I finally broke down and got caller ID. It isn't perfect, but you can at least make sure you get your legitimate calls. Some calls will through as unknown, Illinois call etc. But it is fun to answer the phone by identifying the person right away. There is usually a dead silence on the other end of the line. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:35:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: Crank Calls >For the past few days, my phone has been barraged with what I think are >crank calls, because the person(s) hang up without leaving a message. >This has happened as much as four or five times a day for the past four >days. Willa, do the hang-ups happen even when you answer the phone personally, or do they happen only when your answering machine or voice-mail picks up a call? If the latter, it's possible you've run into a device that telemarketers and others seem to be using here in Toronto. (Bell Canada uses this system to bug people about unpaid phone bills, I think.) Seems there's some kind of autodialer that will keep dialing and hanging up until it gets a human. When it does (and I'm not sure how it can tell--maybe by the fact that you say "Hello" and then wait for a response?), it then transfers you to a live body at their end (e.g., a sales rep, a collections person). Good luck, Rica ================================ (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer, trainer Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" ================================ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:51:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Class::Method() All the non-programmers in the group can skip this one. Is there a standard way to index classes and methods in object-oriented programs? For instance, there is a Reader class and an Input class. Each class has a Read() method. I have seen things like this: Input::Read() Reader:Read() Does this serve the reader who is looking for the Read() method? If I crosspost by method, how do I distinguish between methods that appear in multiple classes? Read() method Input class Reader class Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:20:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Converted from OfficeVision/VM to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Becca Price Subject: Re: Crank Calls In-Reply-To: note of 05/02/97 20:28 *** Reply to note of 05/02/97 20:28 Does your area have caller ID available? it's a nifty little box that shows the phone number (and name, in some places) of the person calling. also, if you answer your phone in a non-standard way (with other than Hello or other standard greeting), and what's calling is a computer doing attack-dialing, the computer won't recognize your words as a "valid" pickup, and so will not do anything until you hang up the phone. Good luck! -becca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:35:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam MacKellar Subject: Re: Classification Problem Willa wrote: I've come up with one possibility for the classification of the books (it's a mental health collection of about 1500 books), but wondered if you could suggest a better method classify the books than I have. Hi Willa, I am just finishing a project organizing a collection of materials surro unding the subject of children with special health care needs. I found that the existing standardized clasification systems I was able to identify (like NLM and LC) were way too flat for this collection. I decided that the way to organize these materials for effective access was to invent a unique, much taller, system. This is my very favorite kind of work. I'd love to hear how this project goes for you. Feel free to e-mail me directly on this. Pam MacKellar Information Answers pmackell@highfiber.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 17:52:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Re: Class::Method() >Is there a standard way to index classes and methods in object-oriented programs? >For instance, there is a Reader class and an Input class. Each class has >a Read() method. >I have seen things like this: >Input::Read() >Reader:Read() >Does this serve the reader who is looking for the Read() method? If I >crosspost by method, how do I distinguish between methods that appear in >multiple classes? >Read() method > Input class > Reader class Since the read() functions from different classes might be quite different, they need to be indexed separately. I would tend to list the functions available under each class name (since the classes are the building blocks of the program), but cross reference the methods (ie the public functions), eg read() See Input Class, Reader Class. However I am not an indexer, just someone who writes programs for indexers, so i would not take my views too seriously! Hilary Calvert Drusilla and Hilary Calvert MACREX Indexing Services Beech House, Burn Road Blaydon, Tyne & Wear NE21 6JR 0191-414 2595 (phone/fax) hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:53:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Crank Calls Willa writes: > >For the past few days, my phone has been barraged with what I think are >crank calls, because the person(s) hang up without leaving a message. >This has happened as much as four or five times a day for the past four >days. > I've been getting these, too, out here in Washington state and so has my sister. Both of us think that it's a case of automatic dialing from telemarketing computers. They dial multiple numbers at the same time and as soon as someone answers, all other active calls are cancelled; hence no one is there when you answer. Caller ID sounds a good idea. At least that way you would have a way of tracing the call. These calls are a nuisance and seem to be multiplying, but I don't think that they are the usual "crank" call variety. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:53:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: LapTops (was Marking) This has been an extremely valuable thread for those of us that are just beginning as indexers. Many thanks to all of you who have contributed and many thanks to Cynthia B. for starting the ball rolling (thread running? ) I found that in my case, looking back through page proofs of the volume on literary criticism I just completed, I can see how my method evolved during the actual work. The beginning pages are thoroughly marked up while toward the end I began simply jotting down ideas and words with page ranges in the margins; the only marked text involved names. I found that with less marking I was better able to deal with concepts rather than individual words. It would have been helpful to have a table of contents (which the author did not provide, nor has yet written) and chapter subheads would have been nice. Not even the chapter titles themselves were of much use, though, since they were cast in very literary terms. I, too, used a three-ring binder to keep my proofs in order. And I found that index tabs along the side of the pages --marking the first page of each chapter-- with page numbers and chapter numbers made it easier to find what I was looking for when checking page numbers and editing. I made the tabs out of masking tape which allowed the page numbers to be visible on both sides of the tab. I wonder, though, what type of computer is being used by those indexers who do not mark the text. Is there a corollary between not marking text and use of lap top computers? Again, many thanks for all contributions on this thread. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:06:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Chinese names (again) In-Reply-To: <199705030356.UAA12037@mx4.u.washington.edu> Most Chinese names these days are in pinyin, i.e., Mao Zedong. So Wade-Giles or not is no guide. You can, however, be pretty sure that any transcriptions from Cantonese are Westernized with a few exceptions (Sun Yat-sen, Jiang Kai-shek). The best thing to do is ask someone if in doubt. Any author worth his or her salt should indicate to the indexer the Chinese name convention being used. If anyone is interested, there are lists of Chinese surnames but it would mean little to most of you since one would have to recognize the characters. Note that if one has lots of Chinese names in one's index the characters should always be included. There are too many Chinese with the same names but different characters. Of course many out in the wilds presses, including the University of Nevada Press, see absolutely no need for Chinese characters in the text, much less in indexes. This makes anything they publish a great deal less useful and no Sinologists would take any work serious that is published without the characters. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 12:10:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Class::Method() In-Reply-To: <199705031557.IAA24870@mx2.u.washington.edu> Microsoft would disagree, but then their indexes are a lot less useful, but the double colon convention to indicate class membership is not only correct but would make immediate and unconditional sense to any programmer. But be aware that a method may belong to more than one class. In Visual Basic for Applications, for example, a given method may appear again in again in families of functions (and of classes behind them). If I can choose, I index for the programmers, not for management paper-pushers who have do idea what is useful and what is not. But then one seldom has the choice! Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 15:40:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Job announcement: Baltimore Cynthia: That's exactly what I said. (but without the hell). On Thu, 1 May 1997 23:07:40 -0400 Cynthia Cox writes: >No wonder they can't fill the position! Who the hell with a MA is >going to >work full-time for $18,000. If they did they would just be lowering >the >salary on other jobs for the rest of us! > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 13:02:40 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: "Charles M. Dugan III" Subject: Re: Class::Method() As someone who is currently studying C++, and finding that the indexes to these books leave a lot to be desired, I think that your suggestions look like they would be useful in allowing a reader to get to the correct information. Another possibility would be: Input Class Read(method) if you have a lot of information under Input class (instead of separate Input::Read() type entries for each method of Input, and yet another Input entry with subentries on other topics related to that class). Good luck with the project, these books NEED good indexes. - Charles Dugan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 16:09:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: LapTops (was Marking) Lillian Ashworth writes: I wonder, though, what type of computer is being used by those indexers who do not mark the text. Is there a corollary between not marking text and use of lap top computers? ------------------ I'm one of those who only marks up text errata. Everything else, that people note as marked on the proof sheets, I type directly into the computer (into hyperindex actually). But the computer is a Macintosh Performa 475, not a laptop. I hasten to add that what comes out of the hyperindex is NOT my final product. It is sorted ideas, things and anything else I thought might be useful in an index. Essentially I throw everything of any possible indexable use into it. The final product, what goes to the publisher, is what comes out of analysis, study, editing and reorganization of the alphabetized mix that hyperindex has given me. It is only fair to add that much of what comes across my desk is highly structured with abstracts before the volume, summaries at the end of each chapter, and explicit conclusions to end it all. And I do read these abstracts, etc. before beginning. Therefore I usually have a pretty good idea what the work is about before jumping into it. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 22:53:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: Class::Method() Richard Evans wrote: > > All the non-programmers in the group can skip this one. > > Is there a standard way to index classes and methods in object-oriented > programs? > > For instance, there is a Reader class and an Input class. Each class has a > Read() method. > > I have seen things like this: > > Input::Read() > Reader:Read() I don't use entries like this, because it is very likely that there will be other entries for the Input and Reader classes. Instead, I put something like, Input class ... Read() method ... Reader class ... Read() method ... > Does this serve the reader who is looking for the Read() method? If I > crosspost by method, how do I distinguish between methods that appear in > multiple classes? > > Read() method > Input class > Reader class The above example is exactly how I post methods. I also cross-post them under a first-level of "methods," for example, methods Read() Input class Reader class The company I work for (Macmillan Publishing) allows up to three levels in the indexes, so it's no problem distinguishing methods using the above example. Hope this helps. Cheryl Jackson Sams Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:48:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Class::Method() In a message dated 97-05-03 12:00:06 EDT, you write: > > All the non-programmers in the group can skip this one. Dick, I'm not a programmer (except for lightweight games in BASIC years ago), but index a lot of object-oriented programming stuff. Is that OK? ;-D > > Is there a standard way to index classes and methods in object-oriented > programs? > > For instance, there is a Reader class and an Input class. Each class has a > Read() method. > > I have seen things like this: > > Input::Read() > Reader:Read() > > Does this serve the reader who is looking for the Read() method? If I > crosspost by method, how do I distinguish between methods that appear in > multiple classes? Well, it could serve those readers who know that those are member functions, that the first part is the class name and the second part is the function name. (I'm using the term function here because the parens following the method names suggest that they are functions.) I, myself, only know this from having indexed books where this format was used, but not all object-oriented programming languages use this format. (I do think that C++ uses it. Smalltalk, OTOH, doesn't.) My point is that not all OOP programmers would necessarily recognize this particular construction. (Some of the readers of the book you're indexing may be new to the particular language it's discussing.) This format, if used in the index, presumes that the reader would think first of the class that the method/function belongs to when trying to access the method name in the index. So, I wouldn't do it this ONLY way even though it may appear in the text and especially the code listings in this format. In the text itself, the reader would understand the relationship because of the context of the discussion, but that wouldn't help the reader trying to find the discussion itself, IMHO. Instead I would double post these as follows: Input class Read() function and Reader class Read() function then, more importantly... Read() function Input class Reader class (as you described) Note: the Input::Read() posting would work nicely if there are no other entries for Input class. This would especially work well if space is an issue in the index. However, it would still *require* double posting, IMHO, at Read() function. If I used that format for Input::Read(), I'd follow it with the term "member function" (if that is what the author uses) or method (or class method or instance method, whichever it happens to be). Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:48:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Class::Method() In a message dated 97-05-03 12:58:57 EDT, you write: > However I am > not an indexer, just someone who writes programs for indexers, so i would > not take my views too seriously! Ah, but as a one of those for whom we're writing these indexes, your views should be taken seriously indeed!! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:48:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: LapTops (was Marking) In a message dated 97-05-03 14:41:32 EDT, Lillian wrote: > I wonder, though, what type of computer is being used by those indexers who > do not mark the text. Is there a corollary between not marking text and use > of lap top computers? I'm a non-marker, but use a desktop (well, actually a tower, but you know what I mean ;-D). Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 04:48:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Crank Calls I was bothered by "hang ups" a few years ago, but it wasn't due to telemarketers or other "attack dialers". The hang ups gradually became those "someone is on the line but not saying anything" calls. I called the phone company to have a trace put on the line and they told me that I had to also file a police report. Despite receiving one of those calls just an hour or so before the police came (the police department called to tell me that an officer was at the door), the calls immediately stopped. Now, this really made me suspicious that someone was actually listening in on my phone calls. So, I replaced the cordless phone in my office with one with a cord and haven't had that problem since. Now, the ultimate in telephone rudeness are the computers that call you and tell *you* (who they've disturbed from whatever you were doing) to wait on the line (presumably for a human being)!!!!! I hang up immediately on those @#$^. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Framemaker Advice In a message dated 97-04-29 14:33:48 EDT, Ann write: > I've been > approached by a client to do an index in Framemaker. Would someone please > explain this? Does one index from the screen or hardcopy? Any advice or > leads would be much appreciated. Thanks, Ann DaleyI Ann, A few days ago, I posted a message that I'd respond as soon as I recovered from that FrameMaker monster I had just delivered, having no idea that the "recovery" would take this long. (Are you sure you want to take on FrameMaker projects? Just joking! ;-D) In this response, I'm going to assume that you know a lot about FrameMaker itself, about book files, marker boxes, building blocks, etc. and focus on the indexing/embedding aspects of it. First of all, unless your client's book is less than 200 pages, you'll need at least 16 Megs of RAM. If you only have 8 Megs, your hard disk will thrash like crazy while FrameMaker and Windows use your hard disk as virtual memory. Everything will slow to an absolute crawwwwwwl. If that happens and you're using Win 3.1, increase the size of your swap file in Windows. This will help a tiny bit. If you're using Win95, virtual memory is dynamically allocated and you can't tweak it yourself. So, you'll have to simply shut everything down and reboot the system. I had to do this once on the "monster", despite using a Pentium with 16Megs of RAM. (Hubby, OTOH, was using the 24Meg 486 and didn't have that problem.) FrameMaker is a resource and RAM hog. Anyway, I index from hardcopy, not the screen per se. Whenever a client approaches me to do an embedded indexing project, I immediately make it clear up front that I need the hard-copy page proofs. So, it doesn't become an issue of my having to print out the pages myself (except once, but that was simply a mistake on the part of a good client). Another thing that you should ensure that you get from your client is *all* of the files listed in the book file, even those you don't need. If you don't have them all, FrameMaker will stupidly refuse to generate the index because you don't have something as silly as a cover page, for example. (I get around this by creating "dummy" files matching the missing filenames in the book when necessary, because folks inevitably forget to send me all of the files despite my asking for them. Just remember not to send these dummy files back to the client because they may inadvertantly overwrite their files with them. Another way is to delete missing files from the book but that requires that you or the client later add them again.) I create the index in dedicated indexing software first. I learned this the hard way. When you create your index by inserting index markers in a FrameMaker document, you cannot see the index while it is forming. Therefore, you're constantly wondering how you indexed something before, you make entries thinking you *know* exactly how you indexed them before only to find later that they don't merge, the structure slides out of kilter, etc. So, I strongly suggest creating the index first in dedicated indexing software, thoroughly editing it to the point where you would deliver it if you didn't have to embed it, then generating a page order sort to work from when embedding. If for some reason, you cannot create the index in dedicated indexing software, you should frequently generate the entire index and print it out. (Now, don't anyone even think of flaming me with remarks about forests and trees. I've been there before and don't want to hear it.) You'll at least have it as a guide to work from and you'll produce a higher quality index. Always generate the index with hypertext links. These allow you to edit the index by clicking on the locator which will open the relevant document and display the marker text you need to edit. (I hope you're using FM 5 as version 4 had a little bug that required doing this twice if the document wasn't already open.) When creating entries, keep leading prepositions and conjunctions in subentries to the absolute minimum required for clarity because you'll have to manually force the sort order for them in FrameMaker--a real pain!!!!!! Now, here's a technique my husband came up with when we were about to embed the 5000-entry monster. We brought the page-order sort into our word processor. We then pre-massaged it by searching and replacing on all of the commas that Macrex uses to separate heading levels and replaced them with the colons that FrameMaker uses for that purpose. (Be careful to first do something with hard commas that should remain commas in FrameMaker so they won't be lost in the global search and replace.) We then searched on the carets that Macrex uses to indicate italics and replaced opening carets with and closing carets with , which are the building blocks that FrameMaker uses. (First check the character formatting definitions that your client uses to determine whether they use for italics or something else.) Do all of the global searching and replacing that you can to prepare your page-order sort for FrameMaker. Strip out all of the forced-sorting strings your indexing software uses, etc. This all requires knowing how your dedicated indexing software formats page-order sorts and the requirements for entering index marker text in FrameMaker to do this effectively. Instead of retyping the entries from your page-order sort, window between FrameMaker and the page-order sort document in your word processor, cutting entries from the page-order sort and pasting them into FrameMaker's index marker box. (Be sure not to include the page numbers from your page-order sort when you're cutting. You'll get the hang of highlighting without including them. Be sure to add any sorting information necessary once you paste your entries into the marker box.) Cutting is preferable to copying because you know for sure when you've embedded an entry and won't accidently omit entries (which can easily happen when typing in what you see from the page-order sort). Other advantages to this method are that you ensure that identical main headings merge, cutting/pasting is faster than typing (even with windowing), and your FrameMaker index doesn't end up full of unmerged page range entries containing double question marks because you simply paste your startrange and endrange markers twice from the Clipboard. This sounds slower but if you use keyboard commands for all of this, it goes very quickly. Hubby and I each embedded almost 2000 entries a day using this method. (Yes, this was grueling and we got very little sleep, but it can be done.) Hope this helps and good luck. If you have any further questions about creating FrameMaker indexes, feel free to drop me an email. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 07:15:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Framemaker Advice While composing my other message to this thread, I remembered one of the more amusing events that occured while Bob ("hubby") and I were in the throes of embedding that large FrameMaker index. Maybe this'll bring a smile to someone else out there in the midst of their own indexing travails. The manual was for a Unix-based software product that runs on large systems. It was somewhere around o'dark o'clock when hubby, who's from Texas, embeds an entry for a software product recommended by the client and says, "This (the company making the recommended product) must be a Texas company because it's called Lone-Tar." I agreed, saying I thought the same thing when I made that entry. (They also had a cutely named product called "Air-Bag" for computer crashes.) A few minutes pass, he chuckles, and says, "And here's another product called Tar-Check!" Well, that one had gone over my head and I told him so. He explained, bringing the full force of his Texas accent to the fore, "Tar-Check, as in, did you check the tars on the car?" We laughed and, not to be outdone, I said that every time I saw a reference to a table in the software with the name "jmother", I always thought of "did'ja call j'mother j'et? (as we would say, back in Philadelphia, where I'm from). Or, being that this table was in the Jail Management module, the inmates would likely say, "j'MOTHER!!!!!" Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 09:11:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Class::Method() I have been glancing over responses to this thread as they come in and I guess I should respond since I am a programmer and the type of person that you need to write the index for. So... just to put in my two cents worth. I like Cheryl's approach to indexing classes and methods. I am NOT a professional indexer by any stretch of the imagination, but I think that Cheryl's approach would make it easy for me to look up a particular method. Kamm > > I don't use entries like this, because it is very likely that there will > be other entries for the Input and Reader classes. Instead, I put > something like, > > Input class > ... > Read() method > ... > Reader class > ... > Read() method > ... > > > > Does this serve the reader who is looking for the Read() method? If I > > crosspost by method, how do I distinguish between methods that appear in > > multiple classes? > > > > Read() method > > Input class > > Reader class > > The above example is exactly how I post methods. I also cross-post them > under a first-level of "methods," for example, > > methods > Read() > Input class > Reader class > > > The company I work for (Macmillan Publishing) allows up to three levels > in the indexes, so it's no problem distinguishing methods using the > above example. > > Hope this helps. > > Cheryl Jackson > Sams Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 10:44:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Crank Calls At 04:48 AM 5/4/97 -0400, Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: >Despite receiving one of those calls just an hour or so >before the police came (the police department called to tell me that an >officer was at the door), the calls immediately stopped. Now, this really >made me suspicious that someone was actually listening in on my phone >calls. So, I replaced the cordless phone in my office with one with a cord >and haven't had that problem since. Lynn, this should be of interest to anybody who routinely uses a cordless (portable) telephone. These calls CAN be monitored by anybody with a police scanner (or similar device). If you are concerned about nosy neighbors with nothing better to do (or if you use your phone routinely to order items with a credit card), use your portable as an emergency phone and make important private calls only on a corded telephone. It's possible (but highly unlikely) that a regular telephone can be tapped. A portable, though, broadcasts your conversations to anybody within a mile or two who has a listening device. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 14:15:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: cross references in Spanish Larry, Could you pass on a little Spanish advice. I am trying to make sure that = I use the correct terminology for cross references, and am using v=E9ase an= d v=E9ase tambi=E9n, ital. But, the books that I have that use those use th= em lowercase. Is this consistent with your experience? Or have you also see = them uppercase? It's amazing how anal we are expected to be! Thanks a bunch. Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:10:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: sorry I accidentally posted cross references in Spanish to the group. I apologize. It was meant to go to one individual. However, if any of you have a suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it. And for the record, I am anal by nature. Otherwise I wouldn't even ask the question.:D Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 15:40:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cross references in Spanish Leslie, I've indexed in Spanish also. Whether "vease" and "vease tambien" (accents omitted) are capitalized or not is the same discussion as capitalizing the S in "see" and "see also". It is the convention/style of the publisher that decides this. More often than not, I've seen the capitalized form used -- that is the more conservative approach, I think. I just checked some of my Spanish language books and that was my observation. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 21:14:28 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lenore Lev Subject: Re: Crank Calls Regarding the discussion on ringing phones with nobody there: I don't remember where I got my information but cordless phones can initiate ringing when the batteries get low. Also, are you sure these calls aren't made by someone trying to send faxes who has the wrong number? I must admit I've done this myself. I dial what I think is a fax number and realize it is someone's real telephone number so I cancel it quickly. Of course the phone was ringing at the other end when I cancelled. I feel bad that someone may have answered the phone fruitlessly but in an office situation I'm not going to wait for a human voice just to tell them I misdialed. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:17:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Earl Morton Subject: Speed reading: Summary report Hi, techwriters and indexers! A few weeks ago I sent a message to both TECHWR-L and INDEX-L asking about speed reading courses. (My original post is attached below for reference.) This post is a summary of the responses. Actually, I have to admit to being somewhat disappointed. I expected to hear from several people who had taken such courses; only two had. One found that speed reading teaches you to take in the concepts of the material quickly, but you miss the specific words. Obviously, this is not good for editing or indexing, because you need to pay strict attention to detail. I responded to her suggesting that I assumed that when you needed to look at the details you could "turn it off" and read as you normally would, but still use the speed techniques for checking a long document for overall structure and organization. It should also help in the research stage of a project. (One other person who had not studied speed reading expressed the same concern about losing too much detail.) The other person who had taken a speed reading course had a definitely bad experience: >When I was in junior college I talked an instructor into letting me "audit" >a speed-reading course. I really took the whole course with close >instruction, but no grade ever got on my transcrpt. > >I don't remember the name of the course, but I do remember using a device >that was supposed to force my eyes to scan quickly down a page. You were >supposed to keep setting this device (which framed a page and covered from >the top down at a specific speed) faster and faster to teach yourself to >read faster and faster. > >I got fast, but comprehension and retention fell off the graph. Remember the >Woody Allen joke about going to a speed reading course and finishing War and >Peace in two hours? The punchline is, "It's about Russia." That was my >experience. I read Hemingway's The Old Man and The Sea in about 20 minutes. >It's about fishing. > >In summary, my speed-reading experience was a waste of time. Thank goodness, >I hadn't spent a dime, so it was NOT a waste of money. Every speed reading course I've seen advertised has promised to increase comprehension, so I'm not sure what to make of this experience. Based on one report I wouldn't say they are all just blowing smoke. Perhaps this one had a poor instructor or was just not a good course. Maybe the effectiveness of speed reading techniques depends on the individual. People learn and perceive in different ways, and maybe speed reading just works for some people and not others. (The advertisers wouldn't tell you that, of course!) One person who responded to my question was just starting a book on her own, and was "pretty impressed with it so far." One respondent echoed my original request, and three asked me to post a summary. Another one quoted Woody Allen's joke. My conclusions? Well, none, so far. I have spent some time scouring the web for information on the specific course I'm considering, but have found nothing other than their own web site and promotion. I'm not sure what to make of that either. Human nature being what it is, if many people had taken that course and found it lacking, I would expect to find warnings and flames on the web, but I didn't. People aren't nearly as quick to brag up their good experiences, so I'm tempted to interpret the lack of comment as a plus for the program. I intend to do a general web search on speed reading to see what else I can learn, but haven't had the chance yet. If I find anything significant, I'll post an update. I can tell you now that the course I'm looking at is Subliminal Dynamics. You can see what they promise from their web site: http://www.subdyn.com/subdyn.html. I heard a very impressive presentation by the creator of this program a few years ago. However, he admitted that before he got into speed reading, he was a very successful insurance salesman, so it's possible that the "impressive presentation" was just effective sales technique. If any of you have any knowledge of this particular course, I'd be very happy to hear from you. Thanks! Earl Morton WorkgWords@aol.com Original post: >I am sending this question to both the techwriting and indexing mail lists, >so I apologize to those of you who receive two copies. > >I am considering taking a speed reading course. As you know, our work >involves reading a great deal of technical material, and I believe that the >improved efficiency and retention such courses promise would be very helpful. >I'd appreciate any of you who have done this telling me about your >experience. > >Was it helpful? A waste of time? Was it a classroom course, or a self-study, >book-and-cassette course? I'd like to hear both the good and bad stories, and >if you don't mind, the names of the courses. I know there is a fine line >between bad-mouthing a company you feel has harmed or cheated you, and >honestly expressing disappointment with poor service or performance. So I'll >understand if you're not comfortable hanging out someone else's dirty >laundry. I'm not interested in hurting anybody's business, but as a customer, >I have the right to evaluate both good and bad experiences of others. > >At this point I don't want to mention which course I am considering because I >don't want to prejudice the replies. > >Thanks! > >Earl Morton >WorkgWords@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 23:40:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Crank Calls We were troubled for several years with calls which, when answered, had only a "dead" sound at the other end. It was not the "empty space" sound of a connection where the person at the other end is silent; this was a mechanical "deadness". If we did not hang up the phone, we would eventually get the "If you would like to make a call, please hang up and dial again" recording -- as though *we* had initiated the call! This was only annoying when one of us picked up the phone, but extremely aggravating when the answering machine got one. Simultaneously, we had an intermittent problem with making outgoing calls. At times, we would have no dial tone; more often, the regular dial tone would be present, but could not be broken by dialing. After more than two years of going back and forth with the phone company (they could not find the problem anywhere in the lines outside or inside the house, and we could never reproduce it when they were there) I finally blew my stack, demanded to speak to a manager, and threatened that if anything ever happened to my daughter and I couldn't dial 911, I would sue. This got immediate results. GTE sheepishly admitted that they had found the problem -- a faulty switcher or receiver at their local switchboard. Once it was replaced, both the "ghost calls" and the outgoing call problems disappeared. I realize this thread doesn't have a lot to do with indexing, but I've found it interesting, and have wondered how other people have dealt with service-related problems which affect their indexing business: phone, snail mail, even email server? Where do you turn when there is no competition to switch to? Kara M. Pekar "So many books, so little time" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 13:22:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristin L Manke Subject: Dealing with Late Page Proofs Does anyone have a standard policy for dealing with editors/publishers/authors when the page proofs are late? I would appreciate any thoughts on this issue! Thanks in advance, Kristin Manke ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 15:41:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Speed reading: Summary report In-Reply-To: <199705050417.XAA06754@mixcom.mixcom.com> >One person who responded to my question was just starting a book on her own, >and was "pretty impressed with it so far." That was me. The book was fairly inexpensive, so I figured I didn't have much to lose. My plan was to use the technique only for the first read-through, then read slowly for keying in terms. I still haven't gotten very far in that book; I suppose I'll bring it with me to W-S. I'll post a report when I've gotten all the way through the book. BTW, this book does say explicitly that certain kinds of reading don't benefit from this technique. More on that later. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 17:31:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dealing with Late Page Proofs The question was posed: << Does anyone have a standard policy for dealing with editors/publishers/authors when the page proofs are late? >> My answer is that I try to keep to my original deadline if possible, and if the delay isn't too major. I know my clients (publishers, mostly) are pressed by the time they get to the end of the production process. So they don't need more aggravation. Therefore, I make every effort to try to keep to the original schedule. However, I've had to renegotiate due dates many times. If the delay in receiving page proofs is too great, or if even a slight delay has put their job in conflict with something else I had scheduled, then it becomes necessary to re-schedule a job. Most publishers are reasonable about this. It's never been a major problem for me. I do not impose a cash penalty or anything like that, if that's what your question implied. When I've turned around a job in a very short time, I've asked for a rush fee, and have met with some success there. One must try. It depends on how ridiculous the final timeframe for your indexing work is. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:28:50 +1000 Reply-To: keyword@ozemail.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Indexing Associations in Argentina I will be visiting Argentina for a month in late June, and would like to make contact with indexers there. Does anyone know whether there is a national association of indexers in Argentina? Failing that, is there a national association of editors? I contacted the Argentine embassy, but all they had was a list of publishers. The messages to Index-L make it clear that the Spanish language is taken a lot more seriously in the US than it is here (Australia), so there may be sources of such information that just aren't available or known here. -- Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills NSW 2010, Australia Phone: +61 2 9331 7764 * Fax: +61 2 9331 7785 * Email: keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 18:57:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Crank Calls An after thought: You might want to check with your local telephone company to confirm the appropriate address to use to remove your name from telemarketing lists. I'm not sure if this address is used just for this area or for the whole country. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical WRiter Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 19:03:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: [Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: vingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found)] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2DB94B127C87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My fingers must be tired from the Walk for Hunger yesterday! I apparently typed this with vingvmb, instead of bingvmb! Please accept my apologies if this is a duplicate post. Willa MacAllen macallen@tiac.net --------------2DB94B127C87 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mailrelay.tiac.net (mailrelay.tiac.net [199.0.65.237]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24933 for ; Mon, 5 May 1997 20:15:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost) by mailrelay.tiac.net (8.8.5/) with internal id UAA12666; Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199705060016.UAA12666@mailrelay.tiac.net> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="UAA12666.862877809/mailrelay.tiac.net" Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: vingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found) Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 This is a MIME-encapsulated message --UAA12666.862877809/mailrelay.tiac.net The original message was received at Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:46 -0400 (EDT) from p9.ts22.metro.MA.tiac.com [206.119.196.74] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 ... Host unknown (Name server: vingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu: host not found) --UAA12666.862877809/mailrelay.tiac.net Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; mailrelay.tiac.net Received-From-MTA: DNS; p9.ts22.metro.MA.tiac.com Arrival-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Final-Recipient: RFC822; INDEX-L@VINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Action: failed Status: 5.1.2 Remote-MTA: DNS; vingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Last-Attempt-Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:49 -0400 (EDT) --UAA12666.862877809/mailrelay.tiac.net Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: Received: from LOCALNAME (p9.ts22.metro.MA.tiac.com [206.119.196.74]) by mailrelay.tiac.net (8.8.5/) with SMTP id UAA12658 for ; Mon, 5 May 1997 20:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <336D391C.D2D@tiac.net> Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 18:34:20 -0700 From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: INDEX-L@VINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: RE: Crank Calls (Longish) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for your empathetic comments. I just knew I wasn't alone in this situation! Actually, I've had both types of calls: when I answer the phone there would be dead silence and then a hangup (this is usually around dinnertime). If I wasn't home, it would be the computerized message "If you'd like to make a call.........." It feels like it is a telemarker, and after some research, I've learned the following: Called Nynex (my local provider) who has a department for annoyance calls (why does there even have to be a department for this purpose?). The message at this number provides you two options: 1) listen to instructions on how to deal with annoying calls 2) if you have gone so far as to file a complaint with the police department, leave information providing a police report number, name of police officer, telephone number of police department, etc. On Friday evening, after 3 hangups on my answering machine, and after calling Nynex, I called the local police department and filed a complaint. Supposedly, I have a police report coming with a police number, name of a police officer, etc. I then provided this information on the Nynex voice mail established for this purpose. If I handled my end appropriately, it is now up to Nynex to trace the calls. I thought maybe the calls had stopped over the weekend, but still had the same situation today, two hangups and one call with dead silence. It appears as though there are two steps (or maybe three) that could be taken at this point, depending on the result of the police report and the Nynex investigation: 1) Get Caller ID (a good start) 2) Get a new answering machine (which apparently will eliminate many of the calls from telemarkers) 3) Change my telephone number (an expensive and time consuming proposition, since it is in every issue of AMC OUTDOORS, the monthly AMC publication, as well as all my businesscards and a couple of listservs). Someone commented that they went as far as changing their telephone number at a cost of $50.00 to them. It's too bad the people causing the problems can't be forced to pay something for the frustration they are causing. Thanks again for your empathy with this situation. When it comes time to research the best answering machines, you probably know where I'll turn for advice! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (I'm proud to report that I collected around $200 in pledges and walked 7 1/2 miles in the Walk for Hunger yesterday.) P.S.: Oh yes, there is an address available to write to have one's name eliminated from marketing lists. I hope it's ok to post the address here, for those who might want to remove their names from telemarketing lists: Telemarketing Direct Marketing P.O. Box 9014 Farmingdale, NY 11735 --UAA12666.862877809/mailrelay.tiac.net-- --------------2DB94B127C87-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 19:22:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Late Page Proofs Like Janet, I know that the publisher is almost invariably working against a tight deadline so I try to keep to the original deadline in spite of any lateness of the proofs. However, I do ask some questions about the deadline: How fixed is the deadline? In case I can't make it, what is the very latest date for receipt of my index? When time is very short, a difference between Friday (index to courier on Thursday for delivery on Friday) and Tuesday (getting the index to the courier on Monday for Tuesday delivery) gives one the weekend at most, an extra day at the least (getting the index to the courier on Friday for delivery on Monday). I have found that my question is well-received and that often a Friday deadline can be made a Monday or Tuesday one. And that I work all the better in the circumstances when I know I have that little extra time if I need it--a reduction in my anxiety level, etc. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 22:19:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dealing with Late Page Proofs I have had a lot of luck lately with publishers offering me new due dates as they explain that the proof has been delayed. However, in instances where they haven't offered, I usually ask for additional time to complete the index equal to the time delay receiving the proofs. (Does that make sense?) Like Janet, I try to finish things by the original due date, if for no other reason than I've usually got another job lined up that I need to get started on. If I start delaying one project, then I am asking for a horrible chain reaction. I have had a lot of success asking for additional money for rush jobs. Lately I have just upped my per page rate on rush jobs, but I have negotiated additional lump sums for rush jobs in the past. It has varied by publisher and situation. If you feel that the publisher is squeezing you on time and asking for an unreasonable due date, you could consider charging a rush premium, explaining that this would require you to work more than 40 hours per week or unreasonable hours to complete the job. Good luck. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 05:42:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Dealing with Late Page Proofs The question was posed: << Does anyone have a standard policy for dealing with editors/publishers/authors when the page proofs are late? >> Patience - endless patience! Christine ************************************************************************** Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 08:29:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Dinners/Food in W-S Since we have discussed birding, walking, golfing, etc., in relation to the Conference in W-S, I am wondering if anyone else out there is a food nut like I am? I mean, after all, my hero Julia Child is the keynote speaker, so in the spirit of that, I would like to ask anyone who wants to try out any special restaurants/cuisine to drop me a line off list so perhaps we can plan an evening of culinary investigation! Perhaps someone in W-S can give us some guidance on this? [Wednesday and Thursday evenings (before 8:30 pm on TH) are best.] ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 09:04:04 -0400 Reply-To: Lenore Latta Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lenore Latta Subject: Estimating a Job Hi. This is my first posting to the list, so here goes. I'm about to do my first indexing job (other than marking text for a course manual I edited; someone else did the inputting and formatting, etc.). I'm not sure how to go about approximating the time it will take and therefore estimating the fee to set for the job. It's a 400-page collection of scientific reports from a conference on genetics, so the material is fairly complex. I'd be interested in finding out what some of the ways you, as experienced indexers, would approximate that job. Here are some questions: 1. Do you have a gauge of number of pages per hour for indexing? (i.e., for proofreading I usually approximate that I can do 10-14 pages per hour, for copyediting 4-6, but I don't have any idea for indexing). 2. Do you consider number of entries per page, and if so, how many entries would be considered a lot and how many a little? I think I've seen reference to 8-10 entries per page as being a fairly high number, but in the few pages I've done so far I seem to be marking 15-20. Is that reasonable as well? And if so, do you somehow incorporate number of entries per page into a formula for estimating time for the job? 3. If I do estimate number of pages per hour that I can complete in making a "first pass", how do I take into account the rest of the process -- the inputting, the editing? Do you double the estimate? Triple it? 4. Can anyone give me a ballpark estimate of what you would think it would take you to do the manuscript I described (400 pages, scientific material)? And whether, as a beginner, I should increase that estimate by some percentage to figure out how long it would take me? Thanks! ********************************************************************** Lenore Latta Writing Services Coordinator Learning & Writing Services Counselling & Student Resource Centre Level 3, University Centre University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, CANADA N1G 2W1 Phone: (519) 824-4120, Extension 6350 Fax: (519) 763-5244 Email: llatta@uoguelph.ca Website: http://www.uoguelph.ca/csrc/writing/homepage.html ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:07:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Crank Calls and Speed Reading Courses I'm late on both of these threads, but here are my $0.02. On the crank calls issue, instead of getting Caller ID, after the other party hangs up, dial "*69" (that's asterisk, 6, 9). That'll also give you the phone number that just connected to your phone. Re: Speed reading courses. I took a reading course (bona fide college course) while in college (in the late '70s). It was not a speed reading course per se, but speed reading was part of the curriculum. As someone else mentioned, one of the methods used was this gadget that you set the speed of reading to, and then you take mini-tests to see what you got out of the passage. By the end of the course I could speed read 1200 words a minute (that's an adjusted figure with so-many points taken off for wrong answers on the mini-test). HOWEVER (and I did mean to put that in caps y'all), the professor who developed and taught this course was totally disenchanted with courses that _only_ taught so-called "speed reading" without the development of other areas of reading comprehension. She said: 1. as other people on the list did, that "Jaws" was about a shark (this was after she actually took one from probably the leading commercial speed reading course in the US---I won't name names). 2. that speed reading is _only_ for things like reading a newspaper, or novel, where if you don't read every single word, it's not a big deal since you get the gist of what's said and you go on; 3. you have to know when to "turn it off" as in for science, math, and other technical texts--- it does not work for these at all!!! If you use the techniques for these types of tasks, you're both kidding yourself _and_ doing yourself a great disservice. I have found all of what she said to be 100% truth. I'm a technical editor (science). There is no way on this green Earth that I can speed read and edit these texts at the same time. There are techniques, however, I use in order to stay focused and on task (and yes, read faster) especially with a boring paper or one that has a tight deadline attached. The most successful technique I use is to point a pen on the end of a line (mine goes on the right side since I'm right-handed) and move the point down a line at a time at even intervals. In short, if you want to take a speed reading course, fine. But, 1) investigate what techniques they use---do they only focus on speed reading or do they strive to improve comprehension too, AND 2) do they make outrageous claims that you can read _any_ type of tome going with their methods. If they do the last one, I'd run in the other direction with my wallet intact. Hope this helps. My $0.02. elaine Elaine R. Firestone elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:34:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Old Salem Oops! Gale just pointed out that I said I'm attending macrex classes on Thursday--they're really on Wednesday, and I'm going to Old Salem on Thursday! I did know that, really I did! (At least I have it written down in my little notebook, which is already quite full :-/ ) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 10:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Class::Method() In-Reply-To: dugan@condor.psych.ucsb.edu (Charles M. Dugan III) "Re: Class::Method()" (May 3, 1:02pm) I've indexed a lot of book on HTML, Java, and JavaScript, and I run into this question all the time. For HTML, for example, certain tag attributes appear in several different tags, such as the attribute ALIGN. <> First, if the attribute appears only once within all of HTML (to my knowledge, since this changes all the time), then I include the tag name itself in parentheses: scrollamount attribute (),150 If the attribute could belong to multiple tags, I will list the tags as subentries, such as: valign attribute , 359 , 350 , 353 You'll also notice from this example, that I have combined tags;
tags; tags; tags;
tag;
and , 355
and together; this is because the tags are extremely similar in use and meaning, and because they are (clearly) on the same page. The only problem with this system is when it becomes time to index something like "style attribute," which not only has three page numbers on the entry line, but 27 subentries, each with one page (except for
, which
has three page numbers.) As you can see, this seems pretty useless,
particularly because the attribute in question means just about the same thing
for every single tag. However, I do this for consistency anyway.

As far as indexing the attributes under the tags themselves, I will do that
only if they fall on page numbers not already mentioned. In a reference book,
for example, a tag might be described on five consecutive page numbers.
If all the attributes for that tags are listed on those pages, I'm not going
to list them under the tag, but rather under the attributes. For example,

        
tags, 33, 354-359 and then, imaginging "" as a subentry when required: align attribute (), 355 background attribute (), 358 bgcolor attribute (), 358 bordercolor attribute (), 358 bordercolorlight attribute (), 358 bordercolordark attribute (), 358 class attribute (), 358 colspan attribute (), 356 height attribute (), 356 nowrap attribute (), 358 rowspan attribute (), 357 style attribute (), 358 valign attribute (), 355 width attribute (), 356 Looking at the page numbers, it's obvious I shouldn't be listing these under the tag. For Java and JavaScript, I do the same things, although in the postings I've read, the question comes up: do you cross reference the method to the class -- or, using HTML-ese, do you cross reference the attribute to the tag? I think not -- not if you use the subentries as necessary. Can you imagine? align attribute See also tags;
tags;