From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 25-NOV-1997 18:15:14.36 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709A" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:31:23 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9709A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:21:31 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Subject: FutureProof Indexer Conference...final round up... Hi The conference is very close now - only 4 weeks away. The price is stuck on $285. Please email Pamela urgently to reserve a place: pnj@pnc.com.au. Please visit our Web site for all the details. http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/futureproof.html Lori Lathrop is coming to do indexing technical communications. She will then be doing training at UNSW, Sydney. As Editor, I get a lot of positive feedback from conferences the Society runs. I have been to all 2: Marysville, Vic, in 1995 and Robertson, NSW in 1996. The program looks very interesting. We are having the past editor of ABC 24 hours Magazine to speak, plus a host of technical and indexing speakers. Australia is miles away from that New York smog and not as barren as the Kalahari Desert (at least not where the conference is being held - the Simpson Desert might come close on a bad day). And we are malaria free. :) All the best and I hope to meet a few of you in the Great Continent Over the Horizon... Bye Dwight Glossary: Kalahari Desert: http://www.africa.com/~venture/saparks/kala/kala.htm ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, 6/333 Old South Head Rd, Bondi NSW 2026 Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058 URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 10:47:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: textbook practice Lynn- Thanks for your detailed suggestion. It is definitely appreciated and sounds like good practice for me both from an indexing point of view and running things through my word processor. In a message dated 97-09-01 09:02:24 EDT, you write: > Another advantage is that you'll be working with loose pages rather than a bound book which can be a pain to index from. (Someone recently sent me one to index, which I promptly tore apart, then discovered they wanted the book back. Ooops. ;-D) I haven't had much problem so far with that...it is a little awkward, but I was so glad to have a text that I could actually mark up that I didn't worry about it too much. I would definitely get lost if I didn't mark! > > I used the "Web technique" for assembling indexing practice materials for > my apprentice, BTW. I didn't want to start her out on something large > because I remember how mentally exhausting it was the first time I tried to > index something. And, when you're trying to find out whether you even like > indexing, you don't want to be burned out by your first attempt at it. Mentally exhausting is right! (But also exhilirating in a weird sort of way that only a book lover and fanatic organizer could understand. :-) ) I *still* am not completely through with that accounting book I have been moaning and groaning about. Of course, it is almost 800 pages. I swore the next ones would not be over 300. :-) 300 seems like it would be relatively easy now. I didn't get burned out exactly, but I did wonder if I would ever be able to do a book that size in two weeks or whatever time was available. I don't feel like that index is going to be superb, but it seems like it will at least be better than the one that was published. Of course, that indexer may have had a very limited amount of time. Anyway, I feel like I have gone through the process once, and hopefully it will get easier from here. Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:48:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Keeping page proofs - how long? You wrote: >how long to keep page proofs. My practice has been to keep them until >I see the published book. I don't have much space in my Manhattan "soho". The publisher has more space than I, so I always return all proofs. The proofs are the publisher's property, after all. The proofs are marked, so the editor can easily see what I've picked up, and what not. I do keep certain materials *UNTIL I GET PAID* or until I am sure that the editor is satisfied with the job. This in case I need to revise the index or explain some indexing decisions, or (god forbid) undo a data processing error. These materials include all data files, including intermediate ones; all drafts and working lists, prior to the final version; and all correspondence with the editor. When the check arrives, I cull the paperwork, save the final index MS, and save the data files from which I could resume work on the index. Very occasionally I have been asked to repaginate a finished index - just as in your experience - but not with so long a lag time. More frequent is the case of being asked to reindex a new or revised edition. By that time, it's unlikely that either I or the editor have retained original marked pages. However, I am still able to repaginate, because my data file retains information about sequential order of references on the pages, so I can re-sort it into page and reference order. I expect to see the old edition, too, so I can mark off page breaks. It is a bit more difficult to find the references though, in the absence of marked pages. You wrote: >When marking pages, I write the last page of a range in the > margin where the range starts, and those markings alerted me to check > whether the end of the page range had also changed. > Page ranges are a major headache. When the page breaks change, ALL the ending page references need to be adjusted. A reference like "98-99" could change to "98"; but equally so, a reference like "98" could change to "98-99". As a lazy compromise, I change all two-page ranges to one-page ("98-99" becomes "98"); but I check and repaginate all multiple-page ranges (like "98-100"). Thanks for your stimulating email. Peter Rooney - magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:47:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margaret FalerSweany Subject: Indexing Organization Minutes ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCB6E7.819A3980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hoping one of you might point me to a useful resource for an indexing = problem. I have done some indexing of books but have never indexed = meeting minutes and am at a loss as to how organize/layout it.=20 An 10-year-old professional organization has decided they want a = "history" in the form of an easily consulted index of all their minutes. = (I have been a member of the group for 5 years so have some familiarity = with their terminology and projects.) They have three requests: =20 1. They want to look up an item such as "insurance" and find each date = when a significant discussion of insurance occurred and specifically any = motion was made/accepted. I have access to all the minutes in = electronic form (although I have to convert them from WordPerfect, Word = 4, FrameMaker 4, or PageMaker) into Word 97. What I'm not sure of is = how to lay out the index so it's useful to them and not a nightmare of = x-refs. Luckily, they don't want the names of participants indexed. 2. They want me to collect into appropriate sections a listing of all = motions for their various interests. =20 3. They want a "handbook" for their Board Secretary that explains = "briefly" how the index works so s/he can update/add to the index when = I've departed. =20 Is there any book or article you know of that would give me basics of = how to tackle this problem or should I head for the hills? Any help = would be greatly appreciated. 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Is it also sent to subscribers when they first subscribe? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:09:54 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Smithies Subject: Re: textbook practice Hi, I've been lurking for a couple of weeks now, hoping to glean an insight into the world of indexing. I'm a Tech Writer, and I've recently inherited a large help file that lacks an index (among many other things). And here's the tough bit: I know next to nothing about indexing. In my previous job I cobbled together an extremely amateur "index" for a programming manual. (By my estimation, you would have had something like a 50% chance of finding a useful entry in that one ; ) ) This time I'd like to do a lot better. I sometimes think when I'm using a well constructed index, that the indexer must have surveyed their target audience to find out what the audience would try to search for. Do you do that kind of thing, or are you people just very good at "putting yourselves in your readers' shoes"? If so, then where on earth do you start? Have I demonstrated my ignorance yet? I haven't managed to track down an indexing course in my corner of the world, so I was wondering if any of you could point me in the direction of any good books or internet resources on the subject, or even just offer me some pointers yourselves. In the end, to do it right, I suspect I'll have to try and find a "real" indexer to do the job for us, but in the mean time, I really would like to develop at least a basic understanding of the process myself. Thanks in advance for anything you can offer. Simon ___________________________ Simon Smithies Technical Writer Global Information Solutions Ltd simons@gis.co.nz >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Carr [SMTP:CccJlc@AOL.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 2:48 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: textbook practice > >Lynn- > >Thanks for your detailed suggestion. It is definitely appreciated and sounds >like good practice for me both from an indexing point of view and running >things through my word processor. > >In a message dated 97-09-01 09:02:24 EDT, you write: > >> Another advantage is that you'll be working with loose pages rather than a >bound book which can be a pain to index from. (Someone recently sent >me one to index, which I promptly tore apart, then discovered they wanted >the book back. Ooops. ;-D) > >I haven't had much problem so far with that...it is a little awkward, but I >was so glad to have a text that I could actually mark up that I didn't worry >about it too much. I would definitely get lost if I didn't mark! >> >> I used the "Web technique" for assembling indexing practice materials for >> my apprentice, BTW. I didn't want to start her out on something large >> because I remember how mentally exhausting it was the first time I tried >to >> index something. And, when you're trying to find out whether you even like >> indexing, you don't want to be burned out by your first attempt at it. > >Mentally exhausting is right! (But also exhilirating in a weird sort of way >that only a book lover and fanatic organizer could understand. :-) ) I >*still* am not completely through with that accounting book I have been >moaning and groaning about. Of course, it is almost 800 pages. I swore the >next ones would not be over 300. :-) 300 seems like it would be relatively >easy now. I didn't get burned out exactly, but I did wonder if I would ever >be able to do a book that size in two weeks or whatever time was available. > I don't feel like that index is going to be superb, but it seems like it >will at least be better than the one that was published. Of course, that >indexer may have had a very limited amount of time. Anyway, I feel like I >have gone through the process once, and hopefully it will get easier from >here. > >Chris Carr >cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: textbook practice At 09:09 AM 9/2/97 +1200, you wrote: >This time I'd like to do a lot better. I sometimes think when I'm using >a well constructed index, that the indexer must have surveyed their >target audience to find out what the audience would try to search for. >Do you do that kind of thing, or are you people just very good at >"putting yourselves in your readers' shoes"? In a corporate setting, where you have periodic releases of the same text, it is possible over time to do user studies and develop a user vocabulary. If you are doing a one-off project, such as most of us freelancers do, you usually don't have time for such refinements. How much time and resources do you have? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:40:01 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Smithies Subject: Re: textbook practice Dick, Thanks for your reply. I am in a "corporate" setting -- a small software company -- I'm the only tech writer, there are about another 40 engineering/development/management bods. We build a Treasury Management software product and sell it world wide through a subsidiary dealer company. Resource-wise, I'm all there is. Time-wise, though I see a good index as a vital component of a help file, it's but one of a multitude of tasks, and it happens that it's not one of the tasks that I'm under pressure to complete *right now*. I can however justify investing a certain amount of time in doing things the right way, and the sooner I start researching the subject, the less pressure there'll be when they do want it right now. >Perhaps it might be feasible for me to "do user studies and develop a user >vocabulary" as you put it. Has anyone achieved this with Questionnaires, or >would I need to visit customers? > >Cheers, > >Simon. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 9:41 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: textbook practice > >At 09:09 AM 9/2/97 +1200, you wrote: >>This time I'd like to do a lot better. I sometimes think when I'm using >>a well constructed index, that the indexer must have surveyed their >>target audience to find out what the audience would try to search for. >>Do you do that kind of thing, or are you people just very good at >>"putting yourselves in your readers' shoes"? > >In a corporate setting, where you have periodic releases of the same text, >it is possible over time to do user studies and develop a user vocabulary. >If you are doing a one-off project, such as most of us freelancers do, you >usually don't have time for such refinements. > >How much time and resources do you have? > >Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:31:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: textbook practice At 10:40 AM 9/2/97 +1200, you wrote: > >>Perhaps it might be feasible for me to "do user studies and develop a user >>vocabulary" as you put it. Has anyone achieved this with Questionnaires, or >>would I need to visit customers? I used to do this sort of thing for a living in a previous corporate life, but I had a whole department of people who did nothing but design and conduct such studies. I can tell you the general process, but you may or may not have the time and resources to follow through. To truly serve the user, you have to get beyond the simple cataloging of features in the product and include not only what the feature *is* but also what a user wants *to do* with the feature. For instance, a book about HTML describes things called tags, one of which is the tag, for making bold text. It is easy to simply index a list of the tags, but a reader who is unfamiliar with the material approaches the text the first time with no knowledge of the system features but rather an idea of a goal to be accomplished. Such a reader might apporach the HTML book with the question: "How do I make bold text?" The reader won't know to look under " tag" until he is familiar with the material. Your index should include something like: bold text, See tag There are two key concepts you need to accomplish this: task analysis and mental modeling. You should be able to read about both in books on human factors or usability testing. Task analysis means identifying and organizing the tasks that a user wants to perform with the product. Mental modeling involves determining how the user organizes a system and what he calls the things in the system. To apply these techniques to the HTML book, you might interview HTML users, present them with a list of tags, and ask them what they *do* with each one, then index the responses you get. This would provide a list of tasks. You might also show representative users samples of text effects, including bold text, and ask them what they call each effect. Maybe they call it "bold", maybe they call it "emphasized" or maybe they call it "dark." This would reflect the users' "mental model" of the things in the system. All this would be done initially in person to person interaction. Once you have created a draft of tasks and vocabulary, you might then create a questionnaire and circulate it to a larger audience to verify that it is representative of the whole audience. I'm afraid this is a very rough view. If you'd like to contact me offline and maybe send me some samples of your material, I could be more explicit. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:37:00 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Smithies Subject: Re: textbook practice This is exactly the kind of information I was after, thank you. The Table of contents already catalogues our product's functionality -- in fact its structure mirrors the product's functionality quite closely, and by clicking a button, the user can view the table of contents alphabetically. If I understand you, to add value my index needs to: * include the product functionality stuff from the T.O.C. * repeat entries for the product functionality stuff using different kinds of language * list tasks a user might be likely to attempt with our product * repeat entries for all the above tasks, using different kinds of language To help me understand the process, do you make this index list and then wade thru the document looking for topics for the index list to point to, or do you wade thru' the document, looking for topics that belong in the index, and then write the index entries? Or (gasp) both? [I'm going to post this, because I think there may be others out there as new to the game as I am. Please advise me if this kind of entry-level stuff belongs offline, or on another list.] Thanks for all the help! Simon. >-----Original Message----- >From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 11:31 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: textbook practice > >At 10:40 AM 9/2/97 +1200, you wrote: >> >>>Perhaps it might be feasible for me to "do user studies and develop a user >>>vocabulary" as you put it. Has anyone achieved this with Questionnaires, or >>>would I need to visit customers? > >I used to do this sort of thing for a living in a previous corporate life, >but I had a whole department of people who did nothing but design and >conduct such studies. I can tell you the general process, but you may or >may not have the time and resources to follow through. > >To truly serve the user, you have to get beyond the simple cataloging of >features in the product and include not only what the feature *is* but also >what a user wants *to do* with the feature. For instance, a book about >HTML describes things called tags, one of which is the tag, for making >bold text. It is easy to simply index a list of the tags, but a reader who >is unfamiliar with the material approaches the text the first time with no >knowledge of the system features but rather an idea of a goal to be >accomplished. Such a reader might apporach the HTML book with the >question: "How do I make bold text?" The reader won't know to look under >" tag" until he is familiar with the material. Your index should >include something like: bold text, See tag > >There are two key concepts you need to accomplish this: task analysis and >mental modeling. You should be able to read about both in books on human >factors or usability testing. Task analysis means identifying and >organizing the tasks that a user wants to perform with the product. Mental >modeling involves determining how the user organizes a system and what he >calls the things in the system. > >To apply these techniques to the HTML book, you might interview HTML users, >present them with a list of tags, and ask them what they *do* with each >one, then index the responses you get. This would provide a list of tasks. > You might also show representative users samples of text effects, >including bold text, and ask them what they call each effect. Maybe they >call it "bold", maybe they call it "emphasized" or maybe they call it >"dark." This would reflect the users' "mental model" of the things in the >system. > >All this would be done initially in person to person interaction. Once you >have created a draft of tasks and vocabulary, you might then create a >questionnaire and circulate it to a larger audience to verify that it is >representative of the whole audience. > >I'm afraid this is a very rough view. If you'd like to contact me offline >and maybe send me some samples of your material, I could be more explicit. > >Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 22:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: textbook practice At 01:37 PM 9/2/97 +1200, you wrote: >To help me understand the process, do you make this index list and then >wade thru the document looking for topics for the index list to point >to, or do you wade thru' the document, looking for topics that belong in >the index, and then write the index entries? Or (gasp) both? It depends. If you believe you have an accurate view of the topic organization, you read the material with that in mind. If you don't have a coherent view of the organization, and have no way to determine one, then read the material and generate an organization based on what you find there. The first method is preferable. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:31:05 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: textbook practice In-Reply-To: <199709012110.OAA16436@pacific.net> Simon wrote: >I sometimes think when I'm using >a well constructed index, that the indexer must have surveyed their >target audience to find out what the audience would try to search for. >Do you do that kind of thing, or are you people just very good at >"putting yourselves in your readers' shoes"? If so, then where on earth >do you start? The kind of formal analysis that Richard describes is certainly rare outside of the computer industry, so I would like to address your question a little differently. I would say that in general it is true that good indexers are skilled at putting themselves in the readers' shoes. Descriptions of an ideal indexer invariably include this skill. It entails an ability not only to visualize potential users, but to analyze the text with an open mind in order to understand what learning guides may be necessary for any particular text. That is, to create guides through the index necessary to help someone understand both the subject at hand and the particular take on the subject at hand. A good index works on multiple levels and, frequently, for multiple uses (research, fact finding, study...). Obviously computer publications have fewer uses to consider, but many possible levels of user comprehension are routinely ignored in the documentation I'm familiar with. As a simple and obsolete example, I hark from mainframe computer days. When I want to locate something in working files, I still think "Search and replace." Only once have I seen a computer doc. index that had an entry for "search. See find and replace". I'm used to it now, but it took me awhile. This is an example of how background may lead to certain language expectations. (It has always seemed to me that desktop pubs expected you to know their language before you could use them, whereas I would have expected the great "access" movement would pay more attention to language variability.) I also will never forget (although I have forgotten what computer product it was for) looking in an index for the troubleshooting section and eventually stumbling over it in the "I" section--"In case of trouble." That was the heading on the page, and so it went into the index. I still giggle over that one. It sounds as if you're getting just the information you needed from Richard, but I wanted to add a different perspective. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:59:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. Shaw" Subject: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution On the title page to _Indexing, The Art of_, Norman Knight presents this couplet: Absente auxilio perquirimus undique frustra, Sed nobis ingens indicis auxilium est. It's unattributed. Can anyone confirm that he wrote it? He translates it as: Without a key we search and search in vain, But a good index is a monstrous gain. Private replies would be appreciated, as I'm on digest. Cheers (and ta), Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:01:44 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Indexing Organization Minutes In-Reply-To: <199709011857.LAA23121@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Hi Margaret I for one think this is an excellent post and use of Index-L (ie, it's not 'noise'), and I wish I had an specific answer for you. I am interested in other people's answers too, because I used to work for a major agency who needed this exact idea, and have thought of going back and doing it for them. Anyone else have ideas? Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing Eugene, OR Margaret wrote > An 10-year-old professional organization has decided they want a = >"history" in the form of an easily consulted index of all their minutes. = > (I have been a member of the group for 5 years so have some familiarity = >with their terminology and projects.) They have three requests: =20 > >1. They want to look up an item such as "insurance" and find each date = >when a significant discussion of insurance occurred and specifically any = >motion was made/accepted. I have access to all the minutes in = >electronic form (although I have to convert them from WordPerfect, Word = >4, FrameMaker 4, or PageMaker) into Word 97. What I'm not sure of is = >how to lay out the index so it's useful to them and not a nightmare of = >x-refs. Luckily, they don't want the names of participants indexed. > >2. They want me to collect into appropriate sections a listing of all = >motions for their various interests. =20 > >3. They want a "handbook" for their Board Secretary that explains = >"briefly" how the index works so s/he can update/add to the index when = >I've departed. =20 > >Is there any book or article you know of that would give me basics of = >how to tackle this problem or should I head for the hills? Any help = >would be greatly appreciated. To reduce the noise on Index-L, please = >respond to mfsweany@mtu.edu. =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:45:42 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: textbook practice Simon, A few additional thoughts. Since you are using HDK for your online help you have at least one advantage. One is the ability to see the entire TOC in an alphbetically sorted list - this makes things that are normally buried and invisible, upfront and visible. However, it makes yours topic titling even more significant. In addition, one of the unique aspects of indexing online help is that the locators are the topic titles, which then become an additional level of the index. This is an advantage since they are almost never undifferentiated, unless you have poor titling, such as happens when converting books to online with with multiple headings such as Introduction or Summary. As a result, I suggest perusing your TOC list for undifferentiated headings and adjust as necessary. -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:19:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: textbook practice At 12:31 AM 9/2/97 LCL, you wrote: > >The kind of formal analysis that Richard describes is certainly rare >outside of the computer industry, Yes, I hope I made that clear. I only went that route because Simon seems to be in a corporate setting. However, there are some simple things a freelancer can do to verify user vocabulary. For instance, I once did a book on AutoCad and posted queries to an AutoCad newsgroup. Got some good feedback. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:35:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution ------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution Author: Mary Hankins at BMC-Austin Date: 9/2/97 9:29 AM Whoever wrote it has a good Latin ear and a good, free translation. The verse scans very well. A good addition, if you have no index might be Mega biblion, mega kakon A big book is a big evil. -Callimachus Librarian at Alexandria, 3rd century B.C. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:03:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution In-Reply-To: <199709021441.HAA02045@mx4.u.washington.edu> Greek!! Magnus Liber, Magnum Malorum would be a translation. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:34:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Organization Minutes I don't think the answers to Margaret's questions would be noise. They could apply to anyone of us who might apply our skills to organizations we participate in. It seems an excellent idea. Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: textbook practice In-Reply-To: <199709020416.XAA16219@mixcom.mixcom.com> Hi, Simon. I have just a word or two to add to Dick's excellent advice. >To help me understand the process, do you make this index list and then >wade thru the document looking for topics for the index list to point >to, or do you wade thru' the document, looking for topics that belong in >the index, and then write the index entries? Or (gasp) both? If you do decide to do the former, don't forget to still read through the text carefully to pick up any subjects that you didn't know you were looking for. Also, if there are troubleshooting tips that aren't gathered together in a section called "troubleshooting" (just scattered throughout the text), gather them together in the index. > >[I'm going to post this, because I think there may be others out there >as new to the game as I am. Please advise me if this kind of entry-level >stuff belongs offline, or on another list.] Questions at all levels are welcome on this list. Partly because many of the participants *are* at the entry level and partly because any question (and answer) may be one that a given more-experienced indexer hasn't heard yet. I'm always learning things from "entry-level" questions. You mentioned in your original post that you hadn't found any nearby indexing courses. Have you considered findout out whether there are any local indexers who'd be available and qualified to do an on-site indexing workshop with you (and any other interested employees)? I'm going to be doing one in my area for the tech writers at a local company, so it occurred to me that you might be able to set up something similar where you are. I teach basic indexing courses locally, but in this case I will tailor the course for this business's materials and do six hours' worth of training over two days. If you haven't already, take a look at the indexing chapter in the _Chicago Manual of Style_ and get a copy of Nancy Mulvany's book _Indexing Books_. Best of luck to you. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:07:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Mac OS 8 As a follow-up to my earlier post, I heard back from 3 indexers. person 1: OS 8 fast and stable; student version of Cindex runs fine; MS Word runs fine person 2: has an OS 8 demo; thinks it wise to wait for a point release like 8.1 or 8.2 (on principle, not because he's encountered bugs in the demo) person 3: had only just installed OS 8 and run it a few hrs; Cindex working fine For anyone who'd like to follow up on the Web, here's a site that discusses possible reasons to wait (no bugs but issues of corporate decisions that might affect the future of OS 8): http://www.macintouch.com and in particular, compatibility reports: http://www.macintouch.com/m8compat.html One of the comp. reports said OS 8 works fine on a PowerCurve 120 (the very machine I have!). Some of my favorite programs weren't listed, so I guess I have to go directly to manufacturers and ask whether their stuff's been tested on OS 8. Although Apple *claims* it will run all previous software, I've heard that one before. OTOH, if you're ready to buy the upgrade, MacZone is selling it for $49 (with Apple and MacZone rebates), compared to other catalog companies: $69 or $99 (upgrade from 7.6 or not). Larry (you know who you are), if you've upgraded, I'd love to hear from you on this. Ferinstance, does OneClick work? Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:14:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Indexing workshop (Was: textbook practice) I have a 6-hour, one-day workshop for tech writers. Next local (Raleigh) session is scheduled through the STC on September 13. Rates for this session will be substantially lower than the general offering price. Announcement follows: INDEXING WORKSHOP A one-day workshop given by chapter-member and professional indexer Dick Evans. Dick will use overheads, handouts, and exercises as he presents the principles of indexing and a general set of procedures for you to follow in designing and creating an index for a book. The workshop has been given previously by Dick and received rave reviews. WHEN, WHERE, & COST: Saturday, September 13, 9am-4pm. Location: The E.P.A. Center in RTP. Rte. 54 at T.W. Alexander Drive. Classroom area is on side of Center away from 54 ("facing" I-40), so enter parking lot from T.W. Alexander Drive, park and enter in rear area (has flagpole, AC cooling tower), sign in at security desk. Cost: Member, $35; Non-Memb, $60; Student, $15 (write checks to "STC - Carolina") CONTACT: To register contact Jerry Pople, 919 834-5272, email jpople@mci2000.com For information on workshop content only, Dick Evans can be emailed at: infodex@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 14:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: textbook practice At 12:11 PM 8/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all- > >Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get hold of textbooks to practice >on without spending a fortune at a college bookstore? I am looking for >something relatively modern, so my local library's book sale is not a very >good source. I'm looking for geology, geography, etc., at the high school or >introductory college level. > >Thanks, > >Chris >cccjlc@aol.com Try a second-hand shop which sells old furniture, dishes, etc. Also, the Salvation Army and Goodwill storefronts are a good place to go looking. Oftentimes, these places will receive relatively new goods from donors, as well as the old mouldy stuff. The ones in my area usually have a couple of shelves of books in the back. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Inexpensive late-model textbooks? Those college book stores are famous for NOT buying back even very modern textbooks if they are even one edition/year too old. Ask them to let you sit with them for three hours and see the downcast and crestfallen students who had had visions of cold beers, just moments before they walked up to the buyer's window. Offer $3 and make their day! DRA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 17:10:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Rate Survey Pardon me if this has been well-covered and I've just not seen it...I am wondering whatever happened to the rate survey. As far as I can tell, it's not on the ASI web site, and I don't recall having seen it in KEYWORDS (but I can't check this out at the moment, as I can't lay my hands on any more recent issue than December 1996). If someone could drop me a note and let me know where I can find it, I'd appreciate it! Thanks. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: New contact information We have been going through a series of contact changes including one that was forced on us: our new area code. Below are all the ways to contact us now. We hope that these changes haven't caused any inconvenience. We also hope they won't change again soon! Dave Ream e-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Leverage Technologies, Inc. 9519 Greystone Parkway Cleveland, OH 44141-2939 Toll-free: 888-838-1203 Local/fax: 440-838-1203 http://www.LevTechInc.com containing news about Cindex, companion utilities, typesetting services, and much, much, more! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:29:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Venneman Subject: brochures vs. letters Hi everyone, I was wondering how many of you send out brochures as opposed to letter/resumes? Does the type of publisher, etc. make a difference on the approach of each? I'm trying to get some marketing info. together to begin the search for that elusive first index, any help would be most appreciated, e-mail me directly if you feel that is more appropriate. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:16:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rate Survey The rate survey is supposed to be in the KeyWords that is currently being printed. I had hoped that it would have been out sooner. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters Hi, I would like to know about this idea, too. It's never really occurred to me. I think others might like to know about brochures being used so I'd say post to the list. Also, when making cold calls to try to get business whose name you get - the managing editor, the acquisitions editor, the production editor? Any suggestion will be appreciated in this direction, too. Stephanie SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:57:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: job opening HW Wilson Company (fwd) >Return-Path: <<@HWWIBM.HWWILSON.COM:jobs@info.hwwilson.com>> >From: "E-mail box for JOBS" >Organization: The H.W.Wilson Company >To: asi@well.com >Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:23:07 EST >Subject: job opening >Priority: normal > > > > > > >Please post the following: > > >The H.W. Wilson Company has immediate openings for >Indexers/Catalogers > >Requirements include: MLS and subject background in either Art >History, Biochemistry, Biology, Contemporary Drama, Ecology, >Electrical Engineering, Genetics, Liberal Arts, Microbiology, French, >German, Spanish or Italian. > >Competitive salary and liberal benefits including 4 weeks vacation. > >Please mail resume to: The H.W. Wilson Company > 950 University Avenue > Bronx, NY 10452 > > or > > fax # 718-538-2716 > e mail: jobs@hwwilson.com > > An Equal Opportunity Employer > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:03:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters Not that I've done either -- sent brochure or sent letters (yet) -- but a letter sure seem more personal, saying "I want to index *your* books." On the other hand, including a brochure with the letter could be a good way to go - the personal with the professional. 2 cents from.. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:28:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Penny Whitten Subject: Re: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution Deborah In a footnote on p. 41 Hans Wellisch (Wellisch, H (1995). Indexing from A to Z. 2nd edn. H.Wilson:New York) notes that Knight wrote a letter to the Times Literary Supplement of 6 January 1978 in an attempt to find the original author of that particular Latin couplet. He apparently got no response as he quoted the saying without citation. I wish you better luck! It certainly is a beauty.! Penelope Whitten Pwhitten@email.dot.gov.au A=INTERNET/C=US/DDA=ID/INDEX-L(a)BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Wrote: | | Message Type: Interpersonal Message | | ----------------------------- [X.400 Text Follows] | ----------------------------- | On the title page to _Indexing, The Art of_, Norman Knight presents this | couplet: | | Absente auxilio perquirimus undique frustra, | Sed nobis ingens indicis auxilium est. | | It's unattributed. Can anyone confirm that he wrote it? He translates it as: | | Without a key we search and search in vain, | But a good index is a monstrous gain. | | Private replies would be appreciated, as I'm on digest. | | Cheers (and ta), | Deborah | shawd@mindspring.com | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:34:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Latin couplet - please confirm attribution In-Reply-To: <199709032228.PAA06551@mx2.u.washington.edu> Once again, it is Greek, not Latin. You ain't gonna find it in a Latin quotation dictionary... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:38:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Arizona Chapter ASI - September Meeting ANNOUNCEMENT ASI Arizona Chapter Meeting Saturday, September 20, 1997 Topic: Onward to Online: Using your Indexing Skills to Make Online Documents More Accessible Speaker: Bonni Graham Location: Holiday Inn Casa Grande, 777 North Pinal Avenue, Casa Grande AZ Registration and networking 11:30 a.m.-12 p.m. Lunch 12-12:30 p.m. Program 12:30-2 p.m. ASI business meeting 2 p.m.-3 p.m. Easy and effective access is crucial to CD-ROM-based online document and system-dependent help files. Although there are differences between this new medium and traditional indexing, most of the principles and many of the practices are similar. This interactive discussion will demonstrate how your existing indexing skills can be used to serve a new market: online documents. Bonni Graham has held a variety of positions in several San Diego software companies. She then moved on to a team environment at Easel Corporation's ENFIN Technology Labs, working on object-oriented client-server development environments. Currently Bonni owns a documentation business, Manual Labour, and claims a number of major corporations as clients. Her company recently won an APEX Award for excellence in design. Menu: Tierra Melon: a melon crown stuffed with chunky chicken salad, garnished with fresh fruit. A vegetarian alternative is available. Fee: $20 Registration: Send a check made to ASI to this address: Carol Chroneos 1960 E. Bendix Drive Tempe AZ 85283 If you prefer a vegetarian meal, please let us know with your registration. Deadline: Tuesday, September 10, 5 p.m. For more information contact either Janet Perlman (Phoenix) at 602-569-7302, or Nan Badgett (Tucson) at 520-825-2892. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:53:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters At 04:35 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Stephanie Olivo wrote: >Hi, I would like to know about this idea, too. It's never really occurred >to me. I think others might like to know about brochures being used so I'd >say post to the list. Also, when making cold calls to try to get business >whose name you get - the managing editor, the acquisitions editor, the >production editor? Any suggestion will be appreciated in this direction, >too. I have a brochure, but it's not specifically for indexing so I rarely send it to possible indexing clients (it's more generally geared for editorial services). I usually send a letter--and, if the brochure is appropriate, I include that as well. It does give a bit more professional appearance. The production manager or lead production editor is usually the person who supervises hiring freelancers, though frequently the individual production editor chooses his or her own contractors. Talking with the production manager will at least get your foot in the door, and your resume will be circulated to the rest of the crew. Acquisition editors rarely are involved in book production, nor are managing editors (unless it's a really small press...and really small presses generally don't pay very well nor do they have lots of work). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:53:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rate Survey At 03:16 PM 9/3/97 -0400, Sanindex@AOL.COM wrote: >The rate survey is supposed to be in the KeyWords that is currently being >printed. I had hoped that it would have been out sooner. Sandi Schroeder Thanks for posting this, Sandi. I had begun to think I was losing what's left of my mind, when I couldn't find anything about the survey on either the ASI web site or the latest volume of KEYWORDS. It does seem to be taking rather a long time... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 20:41:24 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Query Sheet Format Would indexers and copyeditors on the list be willing to share examples of their query sheets? I don't know what one looks like - I've been using my own invention, but maybe there is a standard format that is more professional. Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:13:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Query Sheet Format The few times that I have had to resort to this, I've just sent a cover letter, a resume, and a bibliography consisting of some books that I have indexed over the years. Oddly enough, I have gotten some jobs several years after such a mailing - so I have evidence that editors (some at least) do keep this kind of thing on file. Charles Anderson Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:15:55 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters AND cold calls and business plans In-Reply-To: <199709031834.LAA15273@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >Hi everyone, >I was wondering how many of you send out brochures as opposed to >letter/resumes? >Does the type of publisher, etc. make a difference on the approach of each? > I'm trying to get some marketing info. together to begin the search for that >elusive first index, any help would be most appreciated, e-mail me directly >if you feel that is more appropriate. >Thanks! Hi Pamela I send a letter (not a brochure) and sample pages from three different indexes I've done. The letter states my objective, perhaps a sentence about my philosophy, a little about my preparation and education, a mention of each sample index page, and a request that I be called on for the next book that matches with my focus. I use library's Literary Marketplace as my source of publishers: I get the details I need from the larger section after choosing the presses I want to contact from the subject sections. I've been starting at the back of the alphabet, just to be different. I have been aiming for the presses that do more than 6 books a year but less than 35, mostly west of the Mississippi. That first cold call was horrible (sweaty palms, stammering, etc), but the 8th and 9th were easier. What helped was finally seeing the cold call as an informational call - I am calling for the name and title of the person who gathers indexer information for future use for that press, to confirm the spelling of the publisher's name, and to verify the proper address (many seem to have a PO Box, while only the street address is listed in the LMP. That way it is not a pushy call (which I would hate to receive), nor an opportunity to get rejected. The other thing that helped was that I had a written business plan happening, including quality control checklist, a basic contract to start from, a form to prompt my discussions with publishers so that I ask, at the beginning, the right questions to do the index they want. I tried to imagine (thanks to all you Index-L folks, that was not as hard as it might seem) all the what-if scenarios that could happen, and to make the contract somehow both friendly yet professional and thorough. The written business plan was really just ongoing notes in categories on what I thought I needed to do next (or soon, at least). But it kept me on track, and I felt more confident that I could handle the Great Unknown with the plan in mind. Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:19:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: book recommendation If you're interested in indexing technical documentation, I highly recommend this book, which devotes Chapter 9 to some excellent guidelines for indexing technical manuals: Read Me First! A Stule Guide for the Computer Industry by Sun Technical Publications (Editor), ISBN 0134553470 Here's an excerpt from my review on Amazon.com: This review will focus only on Chapter 9, Indexing. In my previous life, I was a technical writer. For the past 6 years, I have been a freelance professional indexer, dividing my time between indexing computer books and delivering indexing work- shops for technical writers. I am delighted t see a book for technical writers that contains such excellent guidelines for indexing technical manuals. As the introduction to Chapter 9 alludes, indexes enhance product usability. In addition to affecting customers' perceptions of the product, indexes affect customers' perceptions of the developer's credibility. One of the biggest complaints end users of technical manuals have is the inability to find the information they need. If technical writers apply the guidelines in this Chapter, they will avoid some of the most common indexing pitfalls. Some of the best guidelines help writers develop concise, specific index entries and enhance the index by double-posting entries, using meaning- ful cross-references, finding the right balance (not over- indexing or under-indexing) and editing the index. Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 06:51:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters Pamela, I am just working on a brochure for my freelance indexing business. It's taking more work than I thought, but it will be really cool when it's done. My husband, creative genius that he is (he came up with my business name), gave me lots of suggestions for the brochure last night. I think they look very professional, and I think publishers are more interested in what you can do for them now than in where you went to college and what jobs you had before. I am emphasizing what I can do for them, and how I can do it better than anyone else (read "authors"). I will accompany my brochure and business card with a short introductory letter as well. Good luck! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Houston, TX 77065 281-469-4461 email: jbclend@flash.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters Stephanie, Who to talk to, that is the question, eh? In my experience it seems to vary. I deal with trade publishers and academic presses. The smaller ones just have editors and a managing editor. I deal with the managing editor as initial contact there. At the big trade publishers, I'm more likely to deal with specialized production people, so I usually target the production department. However, I have also been transferred to the managing editor sometimes in these cases, too. I'd say if you're going to pick a single target, go for the managing editor. Remember, though, that this may not apply to, say, textbook or technical manual publishers; I don't know how they work. Good luck! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen 9597 Jones Rd. #113 Houston, TX 77065 281-469-4461 email: jbclend@flash.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:49:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Mertes Subject: Book reviewer needed! Brief Entry, the international newsletter for legal indexers, is looking for a reviewer for a book on European Law sources (I'm the US editor). We don't need an expert, just someone who's interested in International Law, perhaps someone with a background in reference works or library science. We can't pay you anything, but you get a free copy of the book and your name in lights. Any takers? It looks like quite an interesting book, especially for anybody doing or likely to do indexing on anything to do with the European Community. Looking forward to hearing from some of you, Kate Mertes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:57:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Daley Subject: letter vs brochure I've been indexing for about a year and I opt to send a resume (about past relevant work experience and education with my indexing subject preferences) and a cover letter specific to the publisher. In letter I mention recent subject indexes I've done and explain that my rates are negotiable. I like the flexiblity of being able to modify letter as I see fit rather than be locked into phraseology of a brochure. Only recently have I put together a list of books indexed ( it finally has come depth to it) that I may sent out depending on conversations with publisher. Good luck. Ann Daley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: brochures vs. letters I made up some brochures on the special paper = ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:22:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Oops! I just sent a batch of mail which included a note to this list = which I had started, then abandoned. (More accurately, thought I had abandoned and trashcanned.) I'm not even sure if there was = anything in it. My face is scarlet. I might as well continue with the thought that was on my mind = when I began the note, which was in response to the "brochures" = thread. I made up a brochure on some really nice patterned paper, = tri-fold stuff. I sent out a large batch of them with about the = same response as I get to other unsolicited mailings: nada. I = did get a call from an editor to whom I had sent the brochure. I asked him if he was calling in response to my brochure. He said = he wasn't; that another editor had given him my name. Then he = said that he HAD received the brochure but threw it in the = wastebasket. He told me it looked tacky. That was the end of = that (and no I have never done any work for that editor). Rather dismayed, I sent the brochure to a nearby editor and asked if she could evaulate it with an editor's eye. She gave me some = constructive suggestions but didn't think it looked tacky. = Still, I have never sent out another brochure and probably never = will. Even if I had one professionally designed (which I've = investigated) the thought of going to the extra effort and = expense to have it land in the rubbish bin is dismaying. I can = send a letter and resume which will also land in the rubbish bin = at a lower cost and with less effort. Another way of stating the same thing is that if I = serendipitously have my resume land on an editor's desk at the = exact moment he/she needs an indexer, he/she will call on the = basis of that as readily as if I had sent a brochure. My $.02. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:32:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stacey Marner Subject: Word 97's Indexer Hello, there. I've never posted here before but I had an indexing question. We produce government documents and don't normally do an index but we're currently working on a user manual that needs one. We don't have real sophisticated software and a problem cam up. I appologize if this question has been answered before. We're using Wordb 97's indexer for the first time and I was just wondering if there is a way to have the indexer ignore case. For example, we would like to have "Password" and "password" listed as one item. The indexer seems to have a default that makes it case sensitive. Is there a way to turn this off? Thanks! Stacey Marner marners@mantech-wva.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:38:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Word 97's Indexer In-Reply-To: <199709041835.LAA20141@mx3.u.washington.edu> Word of advice: don't, on your life, use Word indexers (particularly 6.0 and 7.0). I have done two indexes that way, large ones, and swear never again. They have fixed the master document bugs that were such big headaches in Word 6.0 and 7.0 in Word97 but I just don't trust Microsoft of fix all of the problems or even notice they were there. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:04:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Dr. Dobb's Journal, October 97, author indexing article Check out Dr. Dobb's Journal, October 97. Al Steven's "C Programming" column suggests that authors save money by writing their own indexes. The crude example shown shows just how many professionals confuse keyword concordances with viable, useful indexes. To me, the critical point is that most publishers take indexing money from the author's royalties. This creates the situation where unqualified authors (and others of little experience) try to write their own indexes. Thus the poor quality of indexes, particularly in technical books. A movement to better the quality of indexes would start by stopping the penalizing of authors in the name of indexing. If publishers truly understood the value of an index, particularly in technical reference books, this practice would stop. I used to be a member of a technical book club, but almost every book I ordered had a terrible index. Since I could not review the index before ordering the book, I had to quit the club. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:19:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Oops! Craig, I'm sorry you had such bad luck with your brochure. I see the need for both items in my own practice, and as soon as I can, I'm going to prepare a new brochure that is specific to my indexing work. As both an editor and a graphic designer, it's important to me that not only the words, but the appearance strike just the right chord. And if graphic design is not your thing, you probably need to have a professional do this part of the work for you. There are lots of ways to economize on the actual production of the brochure, but paying a pro to do the design is a worthwhile expenditure. Finally, never just send out a batch of letters (or brochures) without doing the necessary follow-up work: mainly, calling the recipients to discuss your skills and their needs. In fact, the standard final paragraph in my "indexing letter" states that I will be getting in touch within the next __ days to find out what the publisher's needs are and how I can work with them. A mass mailing with no follow-up is considered a great success if you hear from even 1% of the recipients...getting a response from 3% is fantastic. You can up these percentages considerably with proper follow-up...and all it takes is one or two new clients to pay for several years' worth of postage, letters, and even professionally designed brochures. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Word 97's Indexer At 11:38 AM 9/4/97 -0700, P. Buell wrote: >Word of advice: don't, on your life, use Word indexers (particularly 6.0 >and 7.0). I have done two indexes that way, large ones, and swear never >again. They have fixed the master document bugs that were such big >headaches in Word 6.0 and 7.0 in Word97 but I just don't trust Microsoft >of fix all of the problems or even notice they were there. This project sounds like the perfect candidate to try out Sky Index non-professional version, which as I recall sells for about $100 (very inexpensive, as indexing programs go). I tried it out myself some months ago, and while it didn't do everything I needed, it did a considerably better job of simple indexing than any word processing program could do. I'm still a Macrex fan, but I could certainly see adopting Sky Index if I were just starting out and did relatively uncomplicated jobs. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:04:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: brochures vs. letters AND cold calls and business plans At 09:15 PM 9/3/97 +0100, Martha Osgood wrote: >I send a letter (not a brochure) and sample pages from three different >indexes I've done. The letter states my objective, perhaps a sentence >about my philosophy, a little about my preparation and education, a mention >of each sample index page, and a request that I be called on for the next >book that matches with my focus.... Martha has a good approach to marketing; I say that probably because her method is basically my method (!), with some differences: (1) I never send just a few pages of an index, since to really see if an index is complete, one should be able to examine all of the subheads and headings to make sure that double-postings are consistent and that appropriate cross references are included. Actually, I state in my cover letters that samples are available should a publisher wish to see some (rarely do I get asked) and then I send an entire index or two. (2) I also send a brochure and a business card. The brochure states what it is that I do, what's in it for the client, and a bit about my background (just a paragraph with degrees listed, a brief synopsis of work history, and a few words on current indexing and professional activities). So far no one has said the brochure is tacky (poor Craig, what a deflating story!) and I think that a brochure can be a better marketing tool than a complete resume (though occasionally I do send those to medical publishers), especially if one does not have many titles indexed yet. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:58:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <873381442.1011103.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <873381442.1011103.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, Kate Mertes writes > Brief Entry, the international newsletter for legal indexers, is > looking for a reviewer for a book on European Law sources (I'm the US > editor). We don't need an expert, just someone who's interested in > International Law, perhaps someone with a background in reference > works or library science. We can't pay you anything, but you get a > free copy of the book and your name in lights. Any takers? It looks > like quite an interesting book, especially for anybody doing or likely > to do indexing on anything to do with the European Community. > Looking forward to hearing from some of you, > Kate Mertes Hello folks! I hope Kate will not mind if I amplify this a bit. The book is called "Information sources in law" and this, the theoretical 2nd edition, is devoted to over thirty different European countries. It is about how to find legislation, the local legal value of case reports, where to find business information, etc., etc. Lots of electronic stuff - we even had Web addresses for Bosnia (of course, I don't know which are still operative)! It is not about international law, as that is understood over here, i.e. the law between independent states. We were covering the national laws of the countries concerned, though there is the mandatory (here) chapter on the European Union. The chief editor was Jules Winterton of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies in London, and I helped along. I also publish Brief Entry, so Kate kindly agreed to help with finding a reviewer who could not be in my pocket. If anyone takes this bait, and please DO!!, we shall need a snail-mail address for the publishers to mail the volume. It's just a bit too long for email (673 pages). Thanks for watching, if you have been, Yours Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:53:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Fall Meeting announcement, Pacific Northwest Chapter PACIFIC NORTHWEST CHAPTER AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Saturday, October 4, 1997 12noon - 4p.m. Genoas on the Bay 1525 Washington St NE, Olympia, WA IT TAKES ALL KINDS: Indexing and Related Tasks of Non-freelance Professionals Our panelists will discuss how indexing and related information organization skills fit into their companies, and their products. Panelists include: * David Pearlstein, Director of Research and Marketing at Professional Library Services. PLS provides research and document delivery services, document imaging, and indexing services. * Lee Lawing is a keyworder at PhotoDisc, which publishes over 50,000 images both online and on CD-ROM. Lee indexes and categorizes PhotoDisc images. * David Hastings is the Archivist at Washington State Archives. Archival collections usually have accompanying finding aids that are an interesting blend of indexes and catalogs. 12:00 - 1:30 Lunch, Networking, "Ask an Indexer". As usual, we will make sure that working indexers are sitting at each table, so that new and potential indexers have a chance to ask questions. 1:30 - 2:00 Business Meeting. Hear what we have accomplished since our last meeting and what we are planning for the rest of the year. 2:00 - 4:00 Panel Discussion and Questions DIRECTIONS from I-5 Southbound: Take the exit towards State Capitol / City Center / Port of Olympia. Keep RIGHT at the fork in the ramp. Merge onto E. Bay Dr, which becomes Plum St SE. Turn LEFT onto State Ave NE. Turn RIGHT onto Washington St. DIRECTIONS from I-5 Northbound: Take the exit towards State Capitol / City Center / Port of Olympia. Keep LEFT at the fork in the ramp. Merge onto 14TH Ave SE. Turn RIGHT onto Capitol Way S. Turn RIGHT onto 4TH Ave. Turn LEFT onto Washington St. FEE: $20 ASI members; $25 non-ASI members. Includes lunch. (Select lunch from menu.) Three vegetarian pasta dishes are available. To request other options, call Genoas at 360-943-7770.) Registration deadline: Thursday, October 2, 1997. Please send a copy of this registration form and your check payable to PNW Chapter/ASI to: Louise Martin, Secretary/Treasurer, PNW/ASI 3829 SE Harrison, Portland, OR 97214-5944 Names of people attending: ____________________________________________________ Number attending:______ ASI member _____ Non-member_____ Amount enclosed:_______________________ Questions: Louise Martin (lmart@teleport.com or 503-235-8734 or fax@503-239-4353) OR: Program Chair Kari Bero (bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu or 206-937-3673) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever? I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade that book in for groceries. Sincerely, David Robert Austen Elizabeth M. Moys wrote: > > In message <873381442.1011103.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, Kate Mertes > writes > > Brief Entry, the international newsletter for legal indexers, is > > looking for a reviewer for a book on European Law sources (I'm the US > > editor). We don't need an expert, just someone who's interested in > > International Law, perhaps someone with a background in reference > > works or library science. We can't pay you anything, but you get a > > free copy of the book and your name in lights. Any takers? It looks > > like quite an interesting book, especially for anybody doing or likely > > to do indexing on anything to do with the European Community. > > Looking forward to hearing from some of you, > > Kate Mertes > > Hello folks! > > I hope Kate will not mind if I amplify this a bit. The book is called > "Information sources in law" and this, the theoretical 2nd edition, is > devoted to over thirty different European countries. It is about how to > find legislation, the local legal value of case reports, where to find > business information, etc., etc. Lots of electronic stuff - we even had > Web addresses for Bosnia (of course, I don't know which are still > operative)! It is not about international law, as that is understood > over here, i.e. the law between independent states. We were covering the > national laws of the countries concerned, though there is the mandatory > (here) chapter on the European Union. > > The chief editor was Jules Winterton of the Institute of Advanced Legal > Studies in London, and I helped along. I also publish Brief Entry, so > Kate kindly agreed to help with finding a reviewer who could not be in > my pocket. > > If anyone takes this bait, and please DO!!, we shall need a snail-mail > address for the publishers to mail the volume. It's just a bit too long > for email (673 pages). > > Thanks for watching, if you have been, > > Yours > > Betty > ==================================================================== > Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk > Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 > Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, > Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England > ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:58:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Rejected posting to At 12:15 AM 9/4/97 +0000, you wrote: >Your message is being returned to you unprocessed because it seems to have been >already sent to the INDEX-L list. That is, a message with identical body (but >possibly different headers) has been posted to the list recently, either by you >or by someone else. If you have a good reason to resend this message to the >list (for instance because half of the outbound spool files were lost in a disk >crash at some intermediate node), please alter the message text in some way >before resending it. Note that altering the "Subject:" line or adding blank >lines at the top or bottom of the message is not sufficient; you should instead >add a line at the top explaining why you are re-sending the message, for the >benefit of the list membership. > >------------------------- Rejected message (28 lines) ------------------------- >X-Delivery-Notice: SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender. >Received: from BINGVMB (SMTP) by BINGVMB (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id > 2634; Thu, 04 Sep 97 00:14:48 ECT >Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net by BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu > (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 04 Sep 97 00:14:48 ECT >Received: from default ([207.147.132.140]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net > (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA4664; > Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:12:47 +0000 >Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970903211300.00d75534@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> >X-Sender: c.anderson.seattle@postoffice.worldnet.att.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) >Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 21:13:37 -0700 >To: Indexer's Discussion Group , > Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >From: "Charles R. Anderson" >Subject: Re: Query Sheet Format >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ***My apologies to the list for consuming bandwidth, but several times when I have tried to post a response, I've gotten this rejected message. I have never sent such a message more than once, so I really don't understand it. Can anyone enlighten me as to what I am doing wrong? My original message follows (it's not that they are pearls of wisdom, but it's frustrating to try to offer a response and have it bounce): > >The few times that I have had to resort to this, I've just sent a cover >letter, a resume, and a bibliography consisting of some books that I have >indexed over the years. Oddly enough, I have gotten some jobs several >years after such a mailing - so I have evidence that editors (some at >least) do keep this kind of thing on file. > >Charles Anderson >Charles Anderson >c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net > Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:21:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rejected posting to At 07:58 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Charles R. Anderson wrote: >***My apologies to the list for consuming bandwidth, but several times >when I have tried to post a response, I've gotten this rejected message. >I have never sent such a message more than once, so I really don't understand >it. Can anyone enlighten me as to what I am doing wrong? My original >message follows (it's not that they are pearls of wisdom, but it's frustrating >to try to offer a response and have it bounce): Charles, I'm not exactly sure what you are doing wrong, but I =did= see this message (your original note, not the repeat that I am replying to) on Index-L this morning. So, whether you realize it or not, somehow you are occasionally sending double posts. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Danzi Hernandez Subject: Professional Indexing Programs Hello Everyone, I am shopping around for an indexing program. I have looked at the Web sites and e-mailed the makers of Cindex, Macrex, and Sky Index with Windows 95 version release and other questions. I gather that everyone who uses Cindex loves it, and everyone who uses Macrex loves it. Is there user feedback on Sky Index out there? I just read Sonsie's positive chance mention of it. I have used the demo of the standard version and seen the release information about the upcoming professional version. I really like the user interface and data entry grid. I know Cindex is planning a Win95 version "by the end of the year." Macrex says its program is Win 95 compatible. What does the data entry screen look like for Macrex under Win95? I would appreciate any comments about Sky Index. I am considering buying the $99 version, then upgrading to the $495 new version when it is released (I will only have to pay the difference in price.) Thanks for your help! Susan Danzi Hernandez sdhdis@mail2.theonramp.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:30:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Re: Rejected posting to In a message dated 97-09-04 23:25:55 EDT, you write: << At 07:58 PM 9/4/97 -0700, Charles R. Anderson wrote: >***My apologies to the list for consuming bandwidth, but several times >when I have tried to post a response, I've gotten this rejected message. >I have never sent such a message more than once, so I really don't understand >it. Can anyone enlighten me as to what I am doing wrong? My original >message follows (it's not that they are pearls of wisdom, but it's frustrating >to try to offer a response and have it bounce): Charles, I'm not exactly sure what you are doing wrong, but I =did= see this message (your original note, not the repeat that I am replying to) on Index-L this morning. So, whether you realize it or not, somehow you are occasionally sending double posts. =Sonsie= >> Strangely, I also received CHARLES' rejected message as if I had sent it. I think there might be something wrong with the server software. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:54:33 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: AND cold calls and business plans In-Reply-To: <199709042006.NAA17482@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Cynthia writes >Martha has a good approach to marketing; I say that probably because her >method is basically my method (!)... Hey - I recognize class (and effectiveness) when I see it! :-) Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:05:18 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Following a press's style sheet THANKS In-Reply-To: <199708291321.GAA20600@darkwing.uoregon.edu> >At 11:56 PM 8/28/97 +0100, you wrote: >>I just received a specific-to-the-book-I'm-indexing style sheet from the >>publisher. > >Are you sure it is an *indexing* style sheet? I often get style sheets >like this, but they are directed towards editors and proofreaders and I I >only use them as guides to spelling and typography. > Ah. This explains it. The pages just say 'style sheet,' but in light of Dick's message above, it makes more sense to use it as guide to spelling, caps, and typography than to use it for the form of index entries. I was afraid that there was somthing I did not understand but common sense prevails again. Thanks again, Indexers! Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:44:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Mertes Subject: Brief Entry book review Dear fellow index-L subscribers, Many thanks for your generous offers to review a book on European legal sources. I got tons of replies and have engaged a reviewer. I've sent a separate note to everyone who emailed me -- what an impressive bunch! I hope at some point we can get all of you to review other books, or write articles, for Brief Entry. Many Thanks, Kate Mertes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:34:58 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Evaluation of SkyIndex Susan Danzi Hernandez wrote: >Is there user feedback on Sky Index out there? I just read Sonsie's positive chance mention of it. I have used the demo of the standard version and seen the release information about the upcoming professional version. I really like the user interface and data entry grid. I know Cindex is planning a Win95 version "by the end of the year." Macrex says its program is Win 95 compatible. What does the data entry screen look like for Macrex under Win95? Macrex is a DOS program and runs under Windows 95 in a 'DOS box' - this can be resized by shrinking the size of the letters, etc., but it still looks basically the same. SkyIndex is a much less elaborate program than Macrex (I haven't used Cindex) and seems to be aimed at 'occasional' indexers rather than people who do it for a living. The main attraction is its ease of use; because it is a true Windows program it provides all the functionality of Windows - clipboard access, lists, etc - but it doesn't have the thousand-and-one options that Macrex has. If you have Microsoft Access you may be interested in a database system that I've written to enter a (two-level) index into Access and then output it as a Macrex backup file. The index still requires some massaging once it gets into Macrex, but it does seem to speed up the entry stage. Let me know if you want a copy. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:54:47 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Widad MUSTAFA Subject: Fifth International ISKO Conference Call for Papers (updated) FIFTH INTERNATIONAL ISKO CONFERENCE Call for Papers (updated) The International Society for Knowledge Organization (ISKO) will conduct its fifth International Conference (ISKO 5) in Lille, France, August 25-29 1998. The theme of the conference is : Structures and Relations in Knowledge Organization The conference will focus on the role of relationships and emergent knowledge structures as represented in the human mind, in information handling tools--including classification schemes, thesauri, and indexing systems--and in computers and intelligent/knowledge-based systems. Papers and panels addressing this theme from any of the following perspectives are invited: 1. Theory of knowledge organization: History, paradigms, philosophy, societal aspects, epistemology, division of the sciences. 2. Disciplinary and interdisciplinary approaches to knowledge organization: Formalization of structures and relations in and across linguistics, semiotics, cognitive sciences, computer science, artificial intelligence, etc. 3. Cognitive approaches to knowledge organization: Conceptual entities and inter-concept relations, category formation, classical and non-classical classifications and their use in information organization and retrieval, concept representation in knowledge-based systems, object-oriented analysis and design, types of relations. 4. Design of information systems: Structure and relations in indexing and retrieval languages, design of controlled vocabularies, terminology building and extraction tools, thesauri and metathesauri, multilingual thesauri, standardization of relationships, problems of compatibility. 5. The Comparative approach: Common and particular relationships in different knowledge systems. 6. Linguistics in knowledge organization: Structure and relations in sublanguages/special purpose languages/technical writing, discourse structures and relations, intelligent text processing, natural language processing-based systems and their use in knowledge representation and extraction. 7. New technologies for knowledge organization: Structures and relations in the online environment, applications of classical and non-classical structures to computer-based indexing and retrieval systems, search engines, distributed and multilingual knowledge bases. 8. Conceptual modeling: Data modeling, knowledge modeling, user profile modeling. 9. Universals of structures and relations in knowledge organization. Theoreticians, researchers and practitioners in the field of structures and relations in knowledge organization are invited to submit an abstract of 500 to 1000 words by December 1, 1997, to: Widad Mustafa Elhadi ISKO '5 Conference Chair UFR IDIST (Information Documentation, Information Scientifique et Technique), University Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve D'Ascq France Phone: 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 Fax: 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 E-mail: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. An international program committee will select the papers for presentation, and authors will be notified by February 9, 1998. The deadline for submission of papers for the printed conference proceedings will be May 4, 1998. Authors are invited to send three printed copies of their abstracts to the above-mentioned address together with an electronic version which must imperatively be sent in an RTF format to the following e-mail address: isko.conf@univ-lille3.fr. The file's name should be the author's name and not mention "isko" in order to avoid same name file destruction . The abstract must include the authors name, institution , mailing and electronic addresses . Authors should suggest the topic area for which they consider their paper to be best suited . All papers must be in the English language regardless of the participants' nationality. Widad MUSTAFA ELHADI UFR IDIST Universite Charles De Gaulle Lille 3 BP 149 59653 Villeneuve D'Ascq France TEL 33 (0) 3 20 41 64 08 FAX 33 (0) 3 20 41 63 79 e-mail mustafa@univ-lille3.fr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:05:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <199709042355.QAA27456@mx4.u.washington.edu> Book reviews for professional journals are often done gratis; I've done several myself for library publications. It's a publications credit for one's c.v. (for those on faculty track), and a professional contribution. As an academic medical librarian with faculty status, I was quite startled the first time I actually got PAID for an article (a short piece for Library Journal). In fact, in the sciences, it's not at all uncommon for the author to be expected to pay the publisher for the privilege of being published in peer-reviewed journals that may have very limited circulation. As an indexer, I do NOT work for free; but wearing my librarian hat, professional contributions are expected as part of the job. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, david robert austen wrote: > This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are > sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever? > I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work > myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade that > book in for groceries. > > > Sincerely, > > > David Robert Austen > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:40:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Evaluation of SkyIndex In-Reply-To: <199709051304.GAA24783@mx3.u.washington.edu> I was one of the beta testers for Sky Index Pro. I fully agree with Jonathan's comment re the Sky Index Standard edition (the $99 version) and its limited applicability for professional indexers. But the same reservations don't apply to the upcoming release of Sky Index Pro. Although I remain a die-hard Cindex user, I have no hesitation at pointing Windows users to Sky Pro as a serious contender with the 'big two'. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Jonathan Jermey wrote: > SkyIndex is a much less elaborate program than Macrex (I haven't used > Cindex) and seems to be aimed at 'occasional' indexers rather than people > who do it for a living. The main attraction is its ease of use; because it > is a true Windows program it provides all the functionality of Windows - > clipboard access, lists, etc - but it doesn't have the thousand-and-one > options that Macrex has. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:41:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Evaluation of SkyIndex At 08:40 AM 9/5/97 -0700, you wrote: >I was one of the beta testers for Sky Index Pro. I fully agree with >Jonathan's comment re the Sky Index Standard edition (the $99 version) and >its limited applicability for professional indexers. But the same >reservations don't apply to the upcoming release of Sky Index Pro. >Although I remain a die-hard Cindex user, I have no hesitation at >pointing Windows users to Sky Pro as a serious contender with the 'big >two'. Ditto. Verbatim. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:33:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <199709051506.IAA07221@mx5.u.washington.edu> It really depends upon the focus of the review whether it should be free or not. Scholarly reviews and the like are unpaid but you get a usually expensive book in exchange. The prices of books these dates being what they are, the gain can be considerable. About $245.00 worth for my most recent review (of a new Mongolian-English dictionary, as coauthor of the one it replaced), which took me 2-3 hours to write and finalize. However, if the reviews are to be made part of a series much like abstracts for which some service is charging a pretty penney, then I think payment is called for and should be expected. I get academic toad points from publishing a scholarly review, but a review of Icelandic Fishing Practices for an online service is something entirely different since Icelandic fisheries is a field with which I am associated by virtue of professional translation activities, not by academic connection. Doing things for the greater glory is all well and good but "work for free when Safeway starts giving away free food," to quote a former professor. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:49:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! I would certainly be shocked to get paid, also. I have done book reviews for Library Journal since 1990, but have never been paid for any of them! How did you mange that?? Loraine F. Sweetland IPS Information Problem Solvers ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:12:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: SkyIndex Pro release << But the same reservations don't apply to the upcoming release of Sky Index Pro. >> When is this release? David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:53:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <199709051745.KAA22784@mx5.u.washington.edu> Actually, I've never done a book review for LJ; but I did get paid a nominal fee for doing a "How do you manage?" piece a few years ago (the ONLY time I've ever received a check from a professional journal that wasn't for indexing!). Carolyn On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Loraine F. Sweetland wrote: > I would certainly be shocked to get paid, also. I have done book reviews > for Library Journal since 1990, but have never been paid for any of them! > How did you mange that?? > > Loraine F. Sweetland > IPS Information Problem Solvers > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:40:37 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Anderman Guenther Subject: Re: SkyIndex Pro release David Heiret wrote: > << But the same reservations don't apply to the upcoming release of > Sky Index > Pro. >> > > When is this release? > > David Their web site ( http://www.sky-software.com/siproinf.htm ) lists October as the goal. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:07:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Prickett Subject: indexing position available Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing company, seeks freelance abstractor/indexers for our music periodical product, to work full or part time in our Alexandria, VA office. Must have excellent writing skills, ability to work accurately and efficiently under deadlines and be comfortable with computers. Abstracting/indexing experience preferred. Music background desirable. Spanish a big plus. **************************************** Email your resume to sylviap@chadwyck.com; mail or fax to: Production Manager, Chadwyck-Healey Inc., 1101 King Street, Suite 380, Alexandria, VA 22314. Fax: (703)683-7589. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:59:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Professional Indexing Programs At 10:23 PM 9/4/97 -0500, Susan Danzi Hernandez wrote: >Macrex says its program is Win 95 >compatible. What does the data entry screen look like for Macrex under >Win95? I'm running Macrex under Windows 95 in a DOS window, so it looks just the same as it does running directly under DOS. I thought I had read that they were planning to release a true W95 version sometime later this year, but I don't have any further information about it. I would love to upgrade, since there are some capabilities of W95 that are nice to be able to use (clipboard, etc.). =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Evaluation of SkyIndex At 03:34 PM 9/5/97 +1000, Jonathan Jermey wrote: >SkyIndex is a much less elaborate program than Macrex (I haven't used >Cindex) and seems to be aimed at 'occasional' indexers rather than people >who do it for a living. The main attraction is its ease of use; because it >is a true Windows program it provides all the functionality of Windows - >clipboard access, lists, etc - but it doesn't have the thousand-and-one >options that Macrex has. It's usefulness for occasional indexers is exactly why I recommended it to the person who was saddled with doing one index but needed a decent program to work with. I understand the pro version of Sky Index is on a par with Cindex or Macrex, which would make it a full-on program worthy of any professional's consideration. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: .rtf files and QuarkXpress To those Index-Lers with File Conversion Experience: I've made a sample .rtf file from Cindex 6.1 for a potential client who has been trying in vain to get it to rollover into QuarkXpress without losing the indents, bolds, and italics. Is this even possible? Has anyone done it that can explain how? Appendix C (of which I cannot make head or tail) in the Cindex manual intends to describe setting up codes for unusual wordprocessing systems. Does QuarkXpress fall into this category? If it does, will it be possible to just set up just new "type codes," leaving "tags" and "character codes" untouched? Is an alternative (good? bad?) offering to provide camera-ready copy from fonts available to me instead of providing a floppy to the production editor who is having an impossible time with the .rtf file on it? Of course, like all emergencies, this falls on the weekend. Responses ASAP will be greatly appreciated. Diane in Kalamazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position In-Reply-To: <199709052115.RAA101498@rs8.loc.gov> Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from them in the past few months. When the first "position available" offer appeared, I faxed them a letter and never even received a "thank you, but" response. So, I am wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted them? What were the results? Sam Andrusko On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: > Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing company, seeks freelance > abstractor/indexers for our music periodical product ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:32:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Dr. Dobb's Journal Did my post re: article on authors doing own indexes appear on this list? I have not seen the posting, nor any response to it. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 22:25:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress > > I've made a sample .rtf file from Cindex 6.1 for a potential client who has > been trying in vain to get it to rollover into QuarkXpress without losing the > indents, bolds, and italics. Is this even possible? Has anyone done it that > can explain how? Cindex V6.1 provided the necessary .cod file to create QuarkXpress files directly. When doing PRINT/FILE, set the "File type" to be "xpress". Dave Ream LevTech ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:36:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! I used to check checks for articles I wrote for LJ, but the only thing I ever got for reviewing books was invitations to LJ's party at ALA! Charles Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:39:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's wrong that they can't find anybody? I didn't reply myself because they want you to be there. If I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age of modems, I don't see why people won't let you work at home. Maybe ASI should have a committee to convince people that home workers are just as good as in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko writes: >Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from them in the past >few >months. When the first "position available" offer appeared, I faxed >them a >letter and never even received a "thank you, but" response. So, I am >wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted them? What were the >results? > > Sam Andrusko > >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: > >> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing company, seeks >freelance >> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical product > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:05:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: RTF and quark I haven't created a quark file directly out of Cindex, but the standard RTF export mode should work fine. The RTF created by Cindex might be "old form" (Microsoft has changed the rtf spec twice over the years, and Quark's import filters are probably designed for the latest version.) One thing you might do is to open the RTF file up in Word or another word processor, and re-save it as both an RTF file and a native file (i.e. save it as a Word Doc). Then send both to the client. One or the other should place just fine. Also, ask if they are using a Mac or a Windows version of Quark. You might want to save the file in your word processor for the correct platform as well. (i.e., save it as Mac Word 5.0 or save it as Windows Word, depending). I use Cindex's rtf export all the time, but I nearly always open it in Microsoft Word before doing anything else with it. Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 07:34:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress What I (a highly untechnical user) have found works is to print to file with the type as xpress (for QuarkXPress). This works like a charm. But, I had to scream, kick, and holler for the service bureau to IMPORT the file (with the extenstion .xtg) directly into QuarkXPress and NOT--repeat not--to translate the file. Indent and all have imported perfectly into QuarkXPress--as long as it has been directly impored. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 09:05:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Macrex and Clipboard capability At 02:59 PM 9/5/97 -0700, Sonsie wrote: >I'm running Macrex under Windows 95 in a DOS window, so it looks just the >same as it does running directly under DOS. I thought I had read that they >were planning to release a true W95 version sometime later this year, but I >don't have any further information about it. I would love to upgrade, since >there are some capabilities of W95 that are nice to be able to use >(clipboard, etc.). > > =Sonsie= > I too have wished for Clipboard capability in Macrex, but not much since finding a command sequence for duplicating main headings located anywhere in an index, and not at all since it occurred to me to make this sequence into a macro: Escape-Enter-UpArrow-DeleteHeading-Comma-LeftArrow-F5-DownArrow-Enter First enter your new entry with just enough characters of the main heading in question to get the new entry to file directly above it, and then invoke this macro to complete the new main heading and enter the complete entry. Now I accomplish the task much faster than I could even if Macrex had a Clipboard! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress Thanks, Dave, for making me look in the supplemental booklet that comes with Cindex 6.1 (p.5), which plainly gives the answer to the .rtf/QKP problem. If all else fails, read ALL of the documentation! Diane in Kalamazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:53:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room Hi If anyone is interested in starting an AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room. E-mail me privately what times of the day would be convenient for you. I believe this would be a good way to get to know each other. The chat room is now located in the Special Interests - Book Indexers. Right now there aren't any definite times to meet. I will notify each of you that respond when there is. E-mail to: Bookindexr@aol.com Susan Wilkerson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prakash Shakti Capen Subject: Comments, please: Hyperindex I'm a new indexer with a Macintosh and am in the process of doing my indexing software research. I'd be grateful for comments (either on the list or by private e-mail) from those of you who have used Hyperindex. Many thanks. Prakash Capen Irresistible Pages Editing and Indexing Services prakash@moonstar.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:04:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress There being at least two sides to almost everything, Pam, thanks for clarifying the import side of exported files. I'll be sure to mention this wrinkle, for which a cautionary statement is absent from the manual/supplement. Thanks very much, Diane in Kalamazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:20:56 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Macrex and Clipboard capability In-Reply-To: <199709061604.JAA00207@pacific.net> Michael wrote: >I too have wished for Clipboard capability in Macrex, but not much since >finding a command sequence for duplicating main headings located anywhere in >an index, and not at all since it occurred to me to make this sequence into >a macro: > > Escape-Enter-UpArrow-DeleteHeading-Comma-LeftArrow-F5-DownArrow-Enter > >First enter your new entry with just enough characters of the main heading >in question to get the new entry to file directly above it, and then invoke >this macro to complete the new main heading and enter the complete entry. I tried this and it definitely works. I haven't used it enough to know if it is faster (in macro form) that my usual method, which I thought I would share: We're discussing adding new entries in the edit mode--which is how I work after the first 50 or so entries--I need to see my index taking form. To enter a new subheading under an existing main heading without having to retype the main entry portion (what Michael's macro does): Sitting in edit mode I key in the first few letters of the main entry in question and hit enter. That yields the main entry on the first line of my screen. Type: F4 F10 comma comma enter If I enter the first few letters but the desired main heading still isn't positioned on the first line (where F10 will duplicate headings), I type: ctrl-K enter which positions it on the first line; then I do my usual routine. I use this routine in various ways to capture text, which I never have to retype if I don't want to. I'll try Michael's macro some more when I start my next index (that is, when I have time to mess around). Back to work... Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:06:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position One possible reason for the need to be onsite, is that many database producers index directly online as this is quicker and allows for validation for certain fields as the data is inputted. If this is the case and the company is not set up for people to dial into the corporate database from outside locations, then you would have to be onsite to do the job. Roberta Horowitz At 09:39 AM 9/6/97 EDT, you wrote: >Yes, that's the same thing I'm wondering. What's wrong that they can't >find anybody? I didn't reply myself because they want you to be there. If >I could work at home, I might have. In this day and age of modems, I >don't see why people won't let you work at home. Maybe ASI should have a >committee to convince people that home workers are just as good as >in-house workers.? Suellen G. Kasoff > >On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:55:40 -0400 Sam Andrusko writes: >>Hmmm, this is the 3rd time I've seen I posting from them in the past >>few >>months. When the first "position available" offer appeared, I faxed >>them a >>letter and never even received a "thank you, but" response. So, I am >>wondering--has anyone else on the list contacted them? What were the >>results? >> >> Sam Andrusko >> >>On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, Sylvia Prickett wrote: >> >>> Chadwyck-Healey, an electronic publishing company, seeks >>freelance >>> abstractor/indexers for our music periodical product >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:21:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Emily Adelsohn Subject: Apprenticeship vs. other forms of training, & additional issues In response to the conversation about apprentice/mentor relationships, I would like to ask the members of the List their views on the advisability of an indexing apprenticeship for a beginner. While waiting for my USDA materials to arrive (today is the 12th business day since I enrolled, with no word or even confirmation), I have been putting myself through my own version of a training program. I've been reading Nancy Mulvany's Indexing Books; then applying what I'm learning (and what I already know from indexing policy and procedure manuals) to a trial index, chapter by chapter, of a philosophy book from my own bookshelf; then comparing each of my entries with the ones in the actual book and thinking deeply about the differences. Is this kind of exercise, plus eventual mastery of the indexing software, plus the USDA course, plus an actual first index at the end of the training period, not sufficient training for marketing oneself as an indexer? Does one also need a mentor? Two further questions, not directly related to the apprenticeship issue: 1) Most of the differences between the published index in the aforementioned philosophy book and my practice index lie in what appears to me to be differences in judgment. The factual stuff (names, specific word references, etc.) is pretty straightforward. Are there guidelines for evaluating the relative merits of entries which come down to a matter of judgment? To give a fairly simple example, in my index I have listed: political violence with a cross-reference under "nihilism and politics." The published index has no entries under "political violence," but provides this as the closest related reference: Violent revolutionary action, of nihilism Isn't "violent" a less likely place to look for this subject matter than either "political" or "nihilism" for a reader of material discussing changes in philosophy leading to fascism and Marxism? And isn't the published reference unnecessarily wordy? (There are two page references listed under "Violence," just above it, however. ) The subject matter in the chapter is not about violence per se, but largely concerned with the changes in political thought in the 19th and 20th Centuries. 2) One of the members of my writing group had a book published by Rutgers U. last year. She was not happy with the index, and did some editing of it. (I hope it was not done by any of you on this List; this could be embarrassing. I'll leave out her name and the book title.) She told me yesterday that she herself must go to the index frequently, as she has been doing lectures on the subject and also a t.v. special, and that as a user of (essentially) her own index, she finds many things in the index she wishes she could change. As part of my own self-training, I want to interview her on this and get some specifics from her. Is there any interest out there in my recording and transcribing what I learn from her? It might be a lot of work, as she is unusually loquacious (and brilliant!); but if anyone besides me would find such input useful, I would be happy to make it available. Please let me know so I can bring along a tape recorder to our meeting. Sorry this message is so long. Thanks for your patience. Emily S. Adelsohn Pasadena, CA Emadelsohn@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:59:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress In-Reply-To: <199709060407.XAA15203@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Is an alternative (good? bad?) offering to provide camera-ready copy from >fonts available to me instead of providing a floppy to the production editor >who is having an impossible time with the .rtf file on it? If you do decide to do this, be sure to send a sample first of what you *think* is the correct font. When I worked in a publications office, I discovered that two people could have a font by the very same name on their respective computers, and that font would be slightly different (and give different results). Then, too, you'll have to work out how the editor is going to be able to edit your index ms. There could be a lot more back-and-forth than usual. But it could be done. I hope by the time you read this, someone else has explained how to do the rtf thing. :-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 14:52:53 -0700 Reply-To: "P. Buell" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Chadwyck-Healey indexing position In-Reply-To: <199709062008.NAA01907@mx2.u.washington.edu> One primary reason why Microsoft, for example, has its indexers on site, for online indexing, is that they begin indexing before the online documentation is complete, even before it is set in stone, as it were. There is never a set, hard text to index and on site indexers are preferred to allow for the back and forth, etc. Mangement controls the sequence in which things are done, not the indexer, who may end up with 10 times as much to index as one is able to index in a short time and lots of pressure and intimidation (which I tend to resist, working long distance and through a contract). The downside of this approach, of course, is lots of overtime, at least for contractors. I suspect it is just too bad for regular employees. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:06:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Macrex and Clipboard capability At 09:05 AM 9/6/97 -0700, Michael Brackney wrote: >I too have wished for Clipboard capability in Macrex, but not much since >finding a command sequence for duplicating main headings located anywhere in >an index, and not at all since it occurred to me to make this sequence into >a macro: Thank you, Michael! This will go into my Macrex file folder (I'm still a Paper Person at heart). It's a big help. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 17:03:42 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Apprenticeship vs. other forms of training, & additional issues In-Reply-To: <199709062023.NAA20900@pacific.net> Emily writes: >Is this kind of exercise, plus eventual mastery of the indexing >software, plus the USDA course, plus an actual first index at the end of the >training period, not sufficient training for marketing oneself as an indexer? > Does one also need a mentor? Having a mentor is a valuable luxury few indexers actually attain. There are many ways of having one, however. One is to get a job onsite with a supervising indexer(s) or manager to develop your work with you. Mine was a variant of this, offsite. Another is a working relationship such as those that have been described recently on this list. Having a mentor meant that the deep thinking I was inclined to do got feedback, enlargement, and ANSWERS. Which, to your question, there is no single. >Two further questions, <...> >in my index I have listed: > > political violence > >with a cross-reference under "nihilism and politics." > >The published index has no entries under "political violence," but provides >this as the closest related reference: > > Violent revolutionary action, of nihilism > >Isn't "violent" a less likely place to look for this subject matter than >either "political" or "nihilism" for a reader of material discussing changes >in philosophy leading to fascism and Marxism? Maybe for some. But in a book on (philophy and) politics, violence is the issue at hand. "Political" is too generic, in my view, and is an adjective, which is not a correct main entry. "Politics" would be the correct form for a main entry, if it were even appropriate, which again, it sounds too generic for the book at hand. "Political violence" is okay as a main entry, but I still think an entry at violence is necessary. And most certainly, a subentry or page references (as appropriate) under nihilism as well. >And isn't the published >reference unnecessarily wordy? >(There are two page references listed under >"Violence," just above it, however. ) Probably. Especially if the line turned over and made two. I would perhaps see "Violent action, of nihilism". But if there were no space considerations and the index went down to such detail, then maybe... But if violence were also an entry, I would prefer to see: Violence, xx, xx revolutionary, of nihilism or just... of nihilism or simply fold all the page locators on violence as undifferentiated under violence (sounds like 3 or 4?). Again, depending on how much space, what level of detail. >The subject matter in the chapter is >not about violence per se, but largely concerned with the changes in >political thought in the 19th and 20th Centuries. This is where people get caught up. If the subject matter of the chapter is not about violence, per se, it becomes even more important to index the instances of the subject as such. Because a person wouldn't have gone to that chapter to find the information. An (overzealous) editor of a U.S. History textbook index I did once complained about my entry for "land grant universities". But, she said, we hardly cover that subject, it's not a focus of the book. Well, excuse me (I would have liked to have said), but DUH! The focus subjects of the book are easy to find. It is the clearly stated smaller facts that the index is so useful for. My point being that I think sometimes beginners (including myself) think that an index should somehow follow the existing organization of the book (such as relating entries to the chapter title), when the real point of an index (and the part I love) is adding value by giving the book another kind of organization. A generalization I'll put out here is that I take the Chapter titles to be points of reference for entries that may have cross references out to other main entries, or restated, to create more general main entries that send the reader to more specific mains where the subjects cross Chapters. [Does that scan?] This is for scholary works and textbooks, not technical works. I guess that was a rant. >2) One of the members of my writing group had a book published by Rutgers U. >last year. <...> she finds many things in the index she wishes she could change. > >As part of my own self-training, I want to interview her on this and get some >specifics from her. Is there any interest out there in my recording and >transcribing what I learn from her? It might be a lot of work, as she is >unusually loquacious (and brilliant!); but if anyone besides me would find >such input useful, I would be happy to make it available. Please let me know >so I can bring along a tape recorder to our meeting. That sounds likely to be an interesting read--I'd like to see it. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:50:02 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room Susan Wilkerson wrote: >If anyone is interested in starting an AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room. E-mail >me privately what times of the day would be convenient for you. I believe >this would be a good way to get to know each other. The chat room is now >located in the Special Interests - Book Indexers. Right now there aren't any >definite times to meet. I will notify each of you that respond when there is. I tried to raise interest in an indexer's chat room some time ago. As far as I know there wasn't enough participation to keep it going (I would guess we need at least a hundred people to provide a reasonable number on at any one time). If that has changed then rather than confining it to AOL it would be nice to set one up on a universally-accessible server like the Microsoft Comic Chat server. Alternatively, and probably more practically, it could be done through a 'messaging' system like ICQ (although I heard a rumour that ICQ is going to start charging - any alternatives?). Any current ICQ users who want to add me to their list or vice versa, my number is 1419867. To find out more about ICQ go to http://www.icq.com Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 09:53:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Deleting index markers in FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199708050222.AA27558@world.std.com> I am finally doing my first index in FrameMaker 5 and came across my first snag. I'm trying to delete a misplaced index marker. The on-line help is useless as far as I can tell and I followed the step-by-step directions in the book which didn't work! Here's what the book said (shortened): Select the index marker. Open the marker window. Hit the Del key. The text will disappear and the "Edit Marker" button will change to a "New Marker" button. I tried the Backspace/Delete key, the Delete key (under the Insert key) and the Del key on the keypad (which gave me the character "."). Since I was only on the second paragraph, I decided to just exit the document without saving my changes and start over but this may not be the best solution later in the document. Thanks in advance, Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:21:32 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room In-Reply-To: <199709061653.JAA10943@darkwing.uoregon.edu> You wrote >If anyone is interested in starting an AOL Book Indexers' Chat Room. E-mail >me privately what times of the day would be convenient for you. I believe >this would be a good way to get to know each other. The chat room is now >located in the Special Interests - Book Indexers. Right now there aren't any >definite times to meet. I will notify each of you that respond when there is. >E-mail to: Bookindexr@aol.com >Susan Wilkerson How can non-AOL-ers participate? Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Another FrameMaker question In-Reply-To: <199708102226.AA14485@world.std.com> I have another FrameMaker question, less urgent, that isn't covered by my book. I guess people who write software manuals aren't that familiar with how people make indexes. Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker? I can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it would be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the same location. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:23:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: chat room Hi Martha, I am checking out Diagonal@onaustr's (Johnathan) response: Hopefully something can be worked out. It would be wonderful. I'll let you and the index-L list know. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:26:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: .rtf files and QuarkXpress Carol, The preferred alternative is to create an .xtg file rather than an .rtf file, using Cindex 6.1 and altering the Set Filetype to xpress. However, your cautions about preparing camera-ready copy would apply to whatever file type anyone might use. Thanks for the added thoughts. Diane in Kalamazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Apprenticeship vs. other forms of training, & additional issues In-Reply-To: <199709070406.XAA09494@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Is this kind of exercise, plus eventual mastery of the indexing >software, plus the USDA course, plus an actual first index at the end of the >training period, not sufficient training for marketing oneself as an indexer? > Does one also need a mentor? Assuming you do well in the course, yes, that qualifies you to begin a career as an indexer. And I commend you for all the work you're doing on your own. However, don't write off the idea of having a mentor. Not every mentoring relationship is for the purpose of learning more indexing. Mentors can also teach you a lot about running a business and can help you get clients. > political violence > >with a cross-reference under "nihilism and politics." > >The published index has no entries under "political violence," but provides >this as the closest related reference: > > Violent revolutionary action, of nihilism > >Isn't "violent" a less likely place to look for this subject matter than >either "political" or "nihilism" for a reader of material discussing changes >in philosophy leading to fascism and Marxism? Without actually seeing the book, it's hard to second-guess, but I would ordinarily list that sort of thing under violence, since "political" is an adjective, and "political violence" isn't a common phrase like "real estate." And in philosophy books, "political" or "politics" is often too broad to use successfully as a main heading. Good luck with your research. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:07:51 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <873417347.09352.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <873417347.09352.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, david robert austen writes >This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are >sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever? >I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work >myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade that >book in for groceries. > > >Sincerely, > > >David Robert Austen David, Having just got home from this year's Society of Indexers conference in Dublin, I have only just seen your message. I have to confess that I find your comments rather difficult to take. In order to get something moving, I undertook to produce a small journal, almost entirely paid for out of my own pocket. I simply cannot afford to pay anyone for any contributions - reviews or otherwise. If I did, I should soon be in the bankruptcy court. May I suggest that, before you post such hurtful remarks, you find out the true facts? I am very grateful for the other Index-L subscribers' remarks about the usual procedure for 'rewarding' book reviewers. Betty Moys ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:10:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Deleting index markers in FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199709071354.GAA25105@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 09:53 AM 9/7/97 -0400, Sarah wrote: >I am finally doing my first index in FrameMaker 5 and came across my first >snag. I'm trying to delete a misplaced index marker. The on-line help is >useless as far as I can tell and I followed the step-by-step directions in >the book which didn't work! Here's what the book said (shortened): > Hi Sarah, FrameMaker's online help is abysmal, and trying to select an individual marker is almost impossible, especially if you stack markers on top of each other like I do when double posting. They all become one big black "T" if you create new markers without moving the insertion point. ;-D Try this: 1) Open the Find/Change dialog box. (Edit menu/Find/Change command) 2) In the listbox that defaults to "Text", select "Marker of Type". Also, in the same dialog box, type "index" in the textbox to the right of the listbox. (This sounds like a lot of messing around, but these settings will remain for future use if you close the dialog box later, as long as you don't exit FrameMaker.) 3) Put the insertion point somewhere in the document before the marker that you want to delete. Click "Find" in the Find/Change box. The marker box will display the text of the next index marker found. If you want to keep that marker, click "Find" again until the marker box displays the text of the marker you want to delete. 4) Hit Backspace. This will delete the marker and its text. The button will display "New Marker". (If you delete just the text from the marker box, it won't show up in the generated index, but sometimes the empty marker which remains can cause problems. You can tell you have an empty marker when you get an empty marker box and the button says "Edit Marker".) > >Since I was only on the second paragraph, I decided to just exit the >document without saving my changes and start over but this may not be the >best solution later in the document. No, it wouldn't be. Another way to delete markers after generating the index is to click on the marker in the index itself. (Be sure to generate the index with hypertext links). This will open the document containing the relevant marker and will automatically display the text for that marker. Hit Backspace and the marker, with its text, will be deleted. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 11:54:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Another FrameMaker question In-Reply-To: <199709071500.IAA10083@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:59 AM 9/7/97 -0400, Sarah wrote: >I have another FrameMaker question, less urgent, that isn't covered by my >book. I guess people who write software manuals aren't that familiar with >how people make indexes. You're right. I learned far more about embedding in FrameMaker via trial and error and serendipitous accidents than I ever did from the manual. >Is there a way to create multiple index entries using the same marker? I >can get around it by putting another marker close by but I think it would >be more efficient to put entries about the same topic at the same >location. Yes. First, you can put multiple entries within the same marker box by separating them with a semicolon (;) up to a maximum character limit of 255 characters. Don't put any spaces to either side of the semicolon. However, I do not recommend this technique because it makes editing such entries more difficult. (In Frame 4, you have to drag the cursor through the marker box text to find the relevant entry if it's not the first. In Frame 5, you can immediately see all the text, but it's just harder to read than a single entry.) Plus, FrameMaker is sort of buggy about handling page ranges when either end of the range is in a marker with multiple entries. Third, multiple entries containing building blocks can run you up against the character limit rather quickly. So, this is the method I prefer. First of all, whenever possible, put your markers before the first character of a paragraph or just before the paragraph mark at the end of a heading. (<$endrange> markers conversely nicely go before paragraph marks at the end of a paragraph or right before a section mark.) If the entry you're making is relevant only to a sentence or two in the middle of a paragraph, you should put the marker at the beginning of the sentence in case the paragraph breaks on the page. By putting your markers in these types of locations, it's easy to click the insertion point again at the same location when you double post another entry. Location, location, location as they say... The markers are actually discrete markers, but are "stacked", so they appear as one marker on the screen. There doesn't seem to be any limit to how many markers you can "stack". I stack all of my locater-less cross-references at the end of one document for the entire book, BTW. (Front matter is best because it's not likely to be removed from the book in a later version.) This makes it easier to delete a marker entirely. Putting multiple entries into the same marker, as described above, creates more work if you want to get rid of one because you have to be careful in deleting the unwanted text (and semicolons) from the marker. This becomes really nightmarish if you're editing the index and you've deleted the entire marker because you've wanted to get rid of all the entries it contained, then find yourself later clicking on hypertext links for markers that don't exist. (You'll get error messages, then will be unnecessarily taken to the document anyway.) Another tip: Set your display large enough so that you can easily place the insertion point where you want it. I usually use 80% on my 17-inch monitor. Of course if you go larger, it'll be even easier. But you'll see less of the page on your screen and will have to scroll more on the page. So, it's finding a happy balance. You set this by clicking on the "z" or "Z" on the status bar at the bottom of the screen. Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:24:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: long distance apprentice relationship In-Reply-To: <199708301654.JAA21137@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 12:58 PM 8/30/97 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Lynn: > >You mentioned (in your response on finding books to do practice indexes) >that you have an apprentice whom you mentor. If I am not being to nosey, >how exactly do you do this? Hi Kevin, I'm sorry to take so long in getting back to you! You're not being too nosey at all. Actually we haven't gotten to the point where she's completed a practice index for me to review. However, we plan to handle this by exchanging files. One neat thing is that, by exchanging word-processed files, I can insert comments into her indexes in another color typeface and email the files back to her. >I have for some time been searching for a >mentor, however it seems that most indexers voice these concerns about >the relationship: > >(1) They would have a hard time serving as a mentor to someone that was >not right there in the office with them. I've worked with a beginning indexer in my office (not officially my apprentice) when she was helping me out after my hospitalized. I had done part of the index in the hospital and she did part of it on her laptop. When we worked to merge the indexes together, the give and take between us was absolutely fantastic. (I don't consider her a beginning indexer anymore, BTW. She's gone on to do quite a few indexes on her own and has built such a nice business that she's sometimes booked to the limit.) So, there's a lot to be said for the spontaneity and instantaneousness (is that a word? ;-D) of F2F contact. However, I plan to get around this via a lot of email give and take. Plus there is also the telephone. If we need to be viewing the same thing on the screen simultaneously, there are always the exchanged files. > >(2) When they get work in, they are in such a hurry to finish it that >they don't have time to also teach someone with the material. Well, deadlines are our constant nemesis. This is why I prefer to work with non-deadline materials rather than part of an index I'm scheduled to deliver by a certain time, at least at this stage. The email method allows us both to work at a pace comfortable for each of us. However, as part of teaching my husband indexing, I often have him index certain sections of books that require only a few minutes of instruction. For example, if I'm working on a programming book that has a command reference, I tell him how to make the entries for the commands, how to double-post them, etc. I've also done this for books requiring name indexes in addition to the subject index. To help him "get into the head" of an indexer so he can see the relationship between a passage of text and the entries it generates, I taught him how to embed from page-order sorts of indexes I've already created in Macrex. This, of course, has the added benefit of saving me tons of time on embedded indexes. (When the two of us are embedding together, we can embed 3000 entries a day or more.) > >(3) They seem unsure as to how it would be of benefit to them. IMHO, the process of teaching in itself benefits the teacher or mentor. It forces you to constantly analyze and re-analyze why you do or don't do things a certain way. And to gain maximum benefit from this, you have to willing to a) acknowlege that perhaps your earlier way of doing things wasn't the best way after all; and b) recognize that sometimes even a total beginner has wonderful ideas. However, the mentor has to be already open to this. I don't think it's necessarily something that someone approaching a potential mentor would be able to sell them on as a potential benefit. Some benefits are also unique to the relationship between the parties involved and can't be predetermined necessarily. But that's part of the joy. :-D > >(4) They aren't sure exactly what they would have the apprentice do. This depends on a lot of things, IMHO. One is the skill and knowledge level of the apprentice, of course. Another is what expectations are held by both parties to the relationship. Does the mentor expect the apprentice to become a "profit-center"? If so, getting the apprentice up to speed where that will happen will depend on many things. Is the mentor-apprentice relationship based more on the mentor's desire to give something back to the indexing community rather than financial concerns and is therefore more oriented toward teaching and helping rather than eventually integrating the apprentice into one's own business? And what does the apprentice want to do? Is the mentor able to allow them to try their hand at things that seem to be above their skill level? People learn best, IMHO, when challenged a bit above their current skill level, though the mentor has to be able to "clean up" if the challenge was set a little too high. And all of this depends on the situation. None of these questions are implied judgements, BTW, but do govern what you have the apprentice do to some degree. For more concrete examples, see my answer to your question #2. >Incidently, posting on the list that one is available to serve as an >apprentice hasn't been very effective. Are there other ways to find a >mentor? I think that a good way of finding a potential mentor is to regularly attend your local ASI chapter meetings. Folks then can get to know you and you can build relationships with them. The success of an apprenticeship is very strongly based on forming a relationship, even a friendship, since we're not talking medieval guilds here. ;-D It's important to "click" (not clique ;-D) with someone. A mentor who really cares about you and your success as an individual is more likely to bend over backward for you, take time with you even when he or she has little time, etc. The potential mentor needs to feel that you are truly serious about learning indexing and that you'll be committed to the relationship. Wishing you success! Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:49:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: textbook practice In-Reply-To: <199709011449.HAA02310@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:47 AM 9/1/97 -0400, Chris wrote: >Lynn- > >Thanks for your detailed suggestion. It is definitely appreciated and sounds >like good practice for me both from an indexing point of view and running >things through my word processor. Hi Chris, Boy am I behind in responding to mail! My apologies. Another cool thing about running it through your word processor is that you can format the headings to make it look like an almost real book. That's what I did. It's just a psychological thing, but something that may give you a boost. > >In a message dated 97-09-01 09:02:24 EDT, you write: > >> Another advantage is that you'll be working with loose pages rather than a >bound book which can be a pain to index from. (Someone recently sent >me one to index, which I promptly tore apart, then discovered they wanted >the book back. Ooops. ;-D) > >I haven't had much problem so far with that...it is a little awkward, but I >was so glad to have a text that I could actually mark up that I didn't worry >about it too much. I would definitely get lost if I didn't mark! Just a thought... if you're working with the bound book lying flat on its back, you could be setting yourself up for some neckaches. To get around this, if this is what you're doing, get a bookstand for hardback books (sturdier and bigger than those for paperbacks). They're usually available quite cheaply from bookstores. I've done this when, for some reason, something doesn't sit right on my copystand. I personally don't mark (unless someone else is going to do the keying) entries (though my husband marks page ranges of headings for me). But, I strongly recommend marking entries when one is starting out. There's just too much going on, IMHO, when you're a) learning; and b) still wrestling with unfamiliar software. >> >> I used the "Web technique" for assembling indexing practice materials for >> my apprentice, BTW. I didn't want to start her out on something large >> because I remember how mentally exhausting it was the first time I tried >to >> index something. And, when you're trying to find out whether you even like >> indexing, you don't want to be burned out by your first attempt at it. > >Mentally exhausting is right! (But also exhilirating in a weird sort of way >that only a book lover and fanatic organizer could understand. :-) ) I >*still* am not completely through with that accounting book I have been >moaning and groaning about. Of course, it is almost 800 pages. I swore the >next ones would not be over 300. :-) 300 seems like it would be relatively >easy now. Eeek! You started out with 800 pages?! On a dry subject like accounting, no less? I gotta hand it to you!!!! :-D >I didn't get burned out exactly, but I did wonder if I would ever >be able to do a book that size in two weeks or whatever time was available. > I don't feel like that index is going to be superb, but it seems like it >will at least be better than the one that was published. Of course, that >indexer may have had a very limited amount of time. Anyway, I feel like I >have gone through the process once, and hopefully it will get easier from >here. It will!! It's sort of like "indexing grooves" forming in your brain as you work through each index. You'll encounter books, even as an experienced indexer, that will be gargantuan challenges, especially when indexing an unfamiliar subject or a familiar subject in a hideously organized book. But in general it does get easier and you'll get faster. And I'm sure that you were pleasantly surprised with what you were able to accomplish so far!!!! Good luck on your next one! Lynn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <199709072016.NAA14582@mx4.u.washington.edu> Betty: I don't think anyone was talking about small journals reviewing books, but large database companies getting free work. Different ball game entirely. I have not only contributed reviews for little (a free paperback) or nothing (I bought the book) to small journals, but have edited them, and, on occasion, have paid publications costs out of my own pocket, so I know where you are coming from. I would add another way that reviews get "paid" for, namely in several free issues of a journal. A free book or a couple of issues is more than adequate for me. What I do object to, however, and this is another issue entirely, are journals that take your articles, copyright them in the name of the journal, provide no free issues, not even the one that the article appears in, no reprints and try to get you to order reprits at an inflated cost. I published this way once. Never again. The assumption seems to be that since one is an academic, i.e., one publishes academic articles, therefore you get toad point, therefore you should pay for the priviledge.... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:30:39 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Book reviewer needed! In-Reply-To: <199709072016.NAA03159@pacific.net> Dear Betty, Regarding David's post about book reviewers working for free, you wrote: >May I suggest that, before you post such hurtful remarks, you find out >the true facts? > >I am very grateful for the other Index-L subscribers' remarks about the >usual procedure for 'rewarding' book reviewers. The .EDU email address notwithstanding, I took his remarks to reveal a profound unfamiliarity with the journal medium, scholarly or otherwise. Having edited a technical journal in which all I had to offer my contributors was copies of the journal and the pleasure of sharing expertise, I sympathize with your concerns. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments Howdy, folks-- I've been lurking for the past 6-8 months (and reading hard to keep up with the list), as I've been going through a significant life change (I got re-married) and preparing for another (retirement from my "real" job). Yes, indeed: After 30 years at the Dallas Public Library, I shall be escaping its confines just after the beginning of the year. In fact, I'm fleeing Dallas itself -- taking my pension and running off to Baton Rouge, where my wife lives (it's a long story...). But I've been indexing part-time for about 15 years and that will become a full-time operation when I move south. Actually, I've been a part-time indexer, copyeditor, writer, and professional genealogist all this time, and Smith Editorial Services will deal in all those areas. Which leads to my question: Would anyone care to share (privately or -- preferably -- with the list) the hardest thing *they* ran into when making the jump from part-time to full-time freelancer? Or the most important thing they didn't expect and weren't prepared for? Or the unexpected best surprise? I know about all the obvious things -- and I really don't think I'm going to miss constant face-to-face contact with the general public (which seems more naive, ignorant, and less well educated every year...). Nor am I going to mind *at all* working much of the time in a quiet house by myself (my wife, who is 5 years younger, expects to work at her career another 7-8 years before she retires herself). I will be included on her health insurance, and I've already begun carrying my own life insurance (as opposed to the minimal deal the City of Dallas offers retirees). And I have a couple of regular clients who can't wait for me to begin taking on additional work, so I don't anticipate much thumb twiddling. Also, my wife and I have been doing workshops on "Genealogy and Computers" all over the central South for a year or two now, so I won't be stuck at home *all* the time. I'm not that experienced at marketing, but I'm working on a set of three un-fancy trifold brochures (one for each branch of my business), and I have a web site in development which is sort of a phosphor-based brochure with some value-added stuff. But, professional anal retentive that I am, I can't help but wonder what I'm forgetting.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@swbell.net smith_editorial@hotmail.com http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:29:37 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Only for those who know southern Nevada... Hi Indexers. On a previous index, a couple of you sent me some excellent answers to several of my questions about southern Nevada. I have a couple more for your expertise, if you would be so kind as to write me off-list. I've already exhausted my sources at this point and the index goes out Monday morning, with my questions either confirmed or queried. Many thanks in advance. Unless you know Nevada, no need to read further. Questions remaining after doing four atlases at the University Library, four other books' indexes on history of Nevada, using two internet people-finders, three travel net sites, my husband's collection of road maps, a book on Nevada placenames, and re-rereading the book I'm indexing: 1. Where is/was Barnwell? southern Nevada? or a nearby state? (I know about the Barnwell in South Carolina) 2. Is/Was Ibex the same place as Ibis or Ibis station? 3. Cal-Nev-Ari is in what state? (This doesn't seem to fit into Stumpers-L categories.) Martha ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:40:07 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Writing for journals and other work without pay Dear Betty: Guess I showed intuition when I prefaced my query and comment with the word "impertinent." I knew there would be another side to this story. Thank you. Of course I most certainly did not mean this as an attack on you, or on any person, in fact. I expected that "journal" implied a sizeable business entity, if not a university publishing unit, and that it was curious that indexers were expected to work without pay in an endeavor related to legal publishing. Indeed, Betty, you wrote, "The chief editor was Jules Winterton of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies in London, and I helped along. I also publish Brief Entry . . . " Such job titles and registered business names make it all sound like much more than a personal endeavor. And indeed, many will already know that paying for any kind of legal advice is just about the most ruinously expensive encounter with a professional you may ever have. The legal publishing connection is another reason why I wondered why indexers should be expected to work without pay. Later Kate Mertes wrote to me to tell me that none of the editors take any pay either. I should imagine, however, these editors likely have "day jobs" in publishing houses, or the academe or in law (that they should not quit). Yes, I could have done more homework, or asked the question directly to you, Betty. I certainly never dreamed my challenge would be taken to be so personal as I've discovered you take it. So please accept my explanation that I was ignorant of the background and the nature of your venture. Still, I reiterate my original point. For thirty years, I have made a decent or occasionally even an excellent living by dint of hard work and my ability to negotiate a fair price with publishers. I occasionally noticed, however, that publishers had the expectation almost anybody should feel so flattered at seeing their name in print that the "financial bits" would be but a minor detail! So the phrases "your name in lights" and "take the bait" piqued my curiosity. When I returned to the university community recently, to teach and study at the same time, I was astounded to discover the poor pay that students and other young people were forced to accept while jammed into these student ghetto communities. While the university was crying poor, deans were making _well over $100,000 a year_ . . . and I had to try to tell my students that they should still believe in the education they were investing in, despite the university trying to convince them they should feel privileged to be accepted as volunteers, and really lucky to get work at the university, at close to minimum wage, with no benefits at all in most cases, after earning their degree. Many students feel discouraged and worse at discovering this first result of their hard work, and I feel for them. I try to tell them what they are worth. They are always worth _something_. That is my observation of 28 years: creative and artistic people, including writers, are often so enamored of their craft that they neglect to learn the business. Youth often neglects to think of the future. When the universities themselves and the low-wage businesses that gravitate to such towns take unfair advantage of them, it is pretty pathetic. I admit to frequently taking advantage of opportunities to remind my students - and anybody who cares to read my words - to stop, look and listen to the business bits (and copyright bits) whenever you are offered an opportunity. I do thank you, Betty and Kate, for giving further information about your venture, and stimulating numerous contributions which I find rather helpful, enlightening and certainly interesting. Yours truly, David Robert Austen Elizabeth M. Moys wrote: > > In message <873417347.09352.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, david robert austen > writes > >This may sound impertinent, but can anyone explain why volunteers are > >sought for such a venture? How is it that there is no budget whatsoever? > >I scratch my head and still can't see how to justify doing this work > >myself without pay. Why should indexers work free? I couldn't trade that > >book in for groceries. > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > > > >David Robert Austen > > David, > > Having just got home from this year's Society of Indexers conference in > Dublin, I have only just seen your message. > > I have to confess that I find your comments rather difficult to take. In > order to get something moving, I undertook to produce a small journal, > almost entirely paid for out of my own pocket. I simply cannot afford to > pay anyone for any contributions - reviews or otherwise. If I did, I > should soon be in the bankruptcy court. > > May I suggest that, before you post such hurtful remarks, you find out > the true facts? > > I am very grateful for the other Index-L subscribers' remarks about the > usual procedure for 'rewarding' book reviewers. > > Betty Moys > ==================================================================== > Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk > Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 > Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, > Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England > ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:15:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Playing catch-up & request for experiential comments Michael wrote: << Which leads to my question: Would anyone care to share (privately or --preferably -- with the list) the hardest thing *they* ran into when making the jump from part-time to full-time freelancer? Or the most important thing they didn't expect and weren't prepared for? Or the unexpected best surprise? >> Michael -- Firstly, congrats on "graduating" to the world of the freelancer. I hope it proves to be all you expect. It has been for me! I love it -- also a freelancer after many many years as a moonlighting indexer. I've been fulltime freelance for 3 years now, and it's wonderful -- in every way. I'd say the biggest wrench for me was finding out immediately that now that I don't have a pay check, I had to cough up a big chunk of cash to cover the next quarter's estimated tax payment, which, of course, includes both halves of the FICA, so it was mucho hefty. Without withholding and my employer's FICA contribution, it was a shocking (to me) amount of money. I didn't realize it would be necessary to do this immediately, and it took a large part of my cash "cushion". Now ... you could say I hadn't done my financial homework. You're right. But I don't know how many people actually realize how much that will come to. As long as you've got some income coming in, you pay quarterly. It comes to about 1/4 of my gross, and since it's quarterly, it cuts into disposable income in a big way, accumulating that much cash so you have it on hand for 6/15, 9/15, 12/15, and 4/15, when you have the pleasure of paying anything you owe for the past year's taxes *plus* your first quarterly payment for the new year. I would say that the entire financial set-up, from quarterly taxes, to the non-steady cash flow of relying on payments from clients rather than a regular paycheck was what the biggest challenge as a new full-time freelancer. I wish you much luck. It works for me. I hope it does for you. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing