From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:54:25.12 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706B" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:50 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:11:01 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 Ann Cleester Tayor writes: >All consumer griping aside, this trend towards superstores full of vacuous >best sellers, when added to the devastation of the US Gov't Printing >Office, is beginning to look ominous. Apologists say that desktop >publishing and the 'Net will fill in our gaps. How many around here agree >with this? How many people on this list have read all the books published on their fields of interest last year, or the year before, or the year before that? How many of us have read all the classics in those fields published before 1950? If book publishing stopped tomorrow, could you ever catch up on that backlog? Most of the new books published aren't adding anything to human culture - they're just driving out old ones. Not enough books around - surely you jest? What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, can do so to our hearts' content. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:20:52 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 5 Jun 1997 to 6 Jun 1997 Carol Roberts said: >*I want to quibble with equating low rates with bad results. Although that is frequently true, we shouldn't *assume* that anyone charging a low rate is a bad indexer. True: they may just be a fast indexer, like me. Using the computer to its fullest, I can produce a simple but adequate index for $2 a page and still make an hourly income comparable with what I could earn elsewhere. I can charge a 'standard' rate and hope to make a lot of money from a few indexes or I can cut my rates in the hope of attracting more customers and ending up with more income overall. Why shouldn't I take advantage of the fact that I'm faster than others? Maybe we should all be looking at raising productivity as well as maintaining quality. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:53:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Laughlin Subject: Re: botanical names can you help me getting off this list? I have tried many things but nothing works. Thanks John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:22:09 -0500 Reply-To: rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "rashidah z. hakeem" Subject: Re: Margin settings Howard, I do recommend this course. The provided texts are very comprehensive and the recommended readings are available at the public library for the most part. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "rashidah z. hakeem" Subject: Re: Margin settings Thanks Dawn, I will give it a try. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:15:11 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: TOOLS: OED Online User Survey You might want to fill out this marketing survey. (Just double click on the blue part and the linkage will happen). Martha > >Worth adding your input, I reckon: > >> >> Plans for the OED Online dictionary project are still being made and have >>now reached the stage of market research. It would help to speed up this >>process if you could please take a few minutes of your time to fill in >>the new >>user survey at >> http://www.oed.com/mailinglist.html >>Of particular interest to us is your rating of a list of features that are >>presently implemented in the trial server. Your response will help us to >>determine which of these features should be retained in the published >>version of the server. >> >> We look forward to hearing from you again. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Jeffery Triggs >>Director, the North American Reading Program >>Oxford English Dictionary > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 23:54:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: botanical names Victoria, here are some more comments on your "new questions": > >. . . the two ^Achillea^ species under discussion are defined as >being the same medicinally, so perhaps I shall include an entry > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ vs. ^A. lanulosa^, 65 > >since some herbalists make a distinction between them and this author >specifically addresses this. . . . > >. . . New Question 1: Since the actual content of the above entry declares them >equal and not opposed, as the term "vs." implies, is there a better term >for this particular comparison? Maybe, > > Yarrow (^Achillea lanulosa^; ^A. millefolium^) > ^A. millefolium^ and ^A. lanulosa^, compared, 65 > >Compared doesn't strictly address the issue either. Suggestions? (Is my >question clear?) > A lot of interesting issues here! If the text is focused on the distinction between the two species, Elinor's suggestion of "species compared" or "species distinguished" would work well because the species in question are limited to those identified in the qualifier. On the other hand, if the discussion in the text is actually focused on the choice of terms between two species said to be medicinally equivalent ("^Achillea millefolium^" over "^Achillea lanulosa^"), you might be able to sidestep the comparison issue with a sub like "scientific name used in this book". Still, what about using the term "vs." when you need to make a comparison? I'd prefer to use the unequivocal term "vis-a-vis" if it weren't too unfamiliar to too many readers, but lacking such an alternative I use "vs." because even though it does suggest opposition in the sense of "against", it also means opposition in the sense of "as opposed to" (meaning "as compared to"). I've made my peace with "vs." as a dual purpose term -- and I'm very glad to have it. > >New Question 2: But here's another twist: A. millefolium is actually the >preferred species name, used exclusively after the the definition of A. >lanulosa as equal (and later slightly contradicting himself in a caution >against diploid mutations). Would there be any room for switching the two >genus names in the parentheses (thus taking them out of alphabetical order): > > Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^; ^A. lanulosa^) > I would rather put the preferred term first, as you suggested, regardless of alphabetical order -- just as the dictionary lists preferred alternative terms first; and I'd prefer a comma to a semicolon as a separator: Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^, ^A. lanulosa^) > >New Question 3: Maybe I should go back to square one and x-ref A. >millefolium to Yarrow, but actually put the page reference in for A. >lanulosa, and include only ^A. millefolium^ in the parentheses following >Yarrow. > It looks to me like the constructions "^Achillea lanulosa^, 65. ^See also^ Yarrow" and Yarrow (^Achillea millefolium^) will not do because all the information under "Yarrow" is about ^Achillea lanulosa^ -- which means that referencing only page 65 is misleading -- and might even confuse some readers about the ^A. lanulosa--A. millefolium^ distinction drawn by the author. I would use a ^See^ reference and include "^A. lanulosa^" in the "Yarrow" qualifier (^after^ "^Achillea millefolium^"). All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:07:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer In-Reply-To: <199706052033.NAA00441@mail6> As a database indexer learning on the job is one part of it, another is to have some training in information retrieval. The reason is that understanding how information is retrieved gives excellent insight to how to index. One place to look for some background are organizations like American Society for Information Science (ASIS). Members of this group come from a variety of disciplines and research/articles published in the Journal of the American Society of Information Science (JASIS) include classification research, information retrieval, controlled vocabularies, building thesauri, indexing, abstracting and text analysis to name a few areas. I have been a member for many years and have gained a lot of information from the annual meetings and the journals. ASIS also publishes an annual review (ARIST) that has done a review on subject analysis a couple of times in the last ten years. The home page for ASIS is http://www.asis.org. Abstracts and Table of contents for JASIS and ARIST (Annual Reviews Information Science and Technology can be found at http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis Another organization is American Medical Informatics Association which cover indexing/information retrieval in medicine (though not to the exact at ASIS). Their home page (including abstracts from their journal can be found at: http://www.amia.org In my opinion, companies do provide on the job training as it is necessary to learn the indexing philosophy of the organization as well as policy on how certain things are indexed. As for positions, I would say contacting the database producer is one way to find out about open positions. In addition to Medline, there is CINAHL (nursing and allied health www.cinahl.com), Chiroline (Chiropractic literature, this is the old name of the database), SportsDiscus (exercise physiology, athletic training, sports medicine etc). PsychInfo (psychology literature), International Pharmaceutical Abstracts (drugs). Additional some of the allied health professions might have their own database (I think Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy have one) Hope this helps. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > I, too, am a medical database indexer. Where would you suggest getting a > job "doing it."? I also write abstracts. Do you know of any open medical > freelance database positions? I don't mean to flame you. I know you mean > well. But I find your advice awfully vague. Suellen G. Kasoff > > On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 William Perez > writes: > > Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: > > > > As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn is > > by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent > > start. For most databases, the indexer applies a controlled > > vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical > > articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the > > vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical > > journals). > > > > Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to > > brush up on your writing skills. > > > > > >______________________________ Reply Separator > >_________________________________ > >Subject: Re: Database Indexer > >Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE > >Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM > > > > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > >Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. > >Could = > >you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on the > >= > >topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn = > >medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing = > >Course. Thanks. > > > >Maxine M. Okazaki > >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu > > > >---------- > >From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] > >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM > >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Subject: Re: Database Indexer > > > >Hello all; > > > >As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my > >"free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? > > > >I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can > >someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing differences > >and/or similarities in these types of indexing? > > > >I appreciate your assistance, > > > >Jim > >Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com > >Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... > >but three lefts do! > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:37:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Indexer certification After I asked last week about the SI program for registering indexers, I received some information off-list. Max McMaster kindly sent me a copy of Index-L posts on the topic from last October, giving more details on the SI and AusSI programs. If any ASI members are interested (and, like me, didn't save these posts), I'd be glad to forward them to you if you email me privately. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 09:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 At 07:11 PM 6/8/97 +1000, you wrote: >Ann Cleester Tayor writes: > >>All consumer griping aside, this trend towards superstores full of >vacuous >>best sellers, when added to the devastation of the US Gov't Printing >>Office, is beginning to look ominous. Apologists say that desktop >>publishing and the 'Net will fill in our gaps. How many around here >agree >>with this? > >How many people on this list have read all the books published on their >fields of interest last year, or the year before, or the year before that? >How many of us have read all the classics in those fields published before >1950? If book publishing stopped tomorrow, could you ever catch up on that >backlog? Most of the new books published aren't adding anything to human >culture - they're just driving out old ones. Not enough books around - >surely you jest? No I don't jest. Quantity is meaningless. As for not adding to human culture--says who? Who are we going to trust to decide that? As an example, a scientist (I will look up his name, tonight...) put forth the theory of plate tectonics during the 1920s (I could be off by a decade.) His theory was considered "junk" until the 1960s and not widely accepted by scientists until the late 70s-early 80s. What if he hadn't been allowed to publish his junk theory? When it became clear that he might be right, scientists went back and read his full theory and his subsequent work and began refining and building upon his original thoughts. You do have an interesting take on the importance of publishing. No offense meant here--truly, but it seems quite egocentric. From my perspective (academic librarian), new books do not push out last year's models. So what if you didn't read all the new books in the field this year? What if you read only those on "x" subtopic and your colleagues are reading the "y" subtopic? >What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty >publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out >their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them >together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One >copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who >want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, >can do so to our hearts' content. I've been working on the 'Net for some years and while your scenario is laudable (Librarian's Pipe Dream #1), I don't see it as realistic. There are several assumptions buried within it: Humans can't agree on even simple things--centralize information under whose authority? There are international battles going on now about what can or cannot be accessed by people within certain countries. Publishers are profit driven, who would control the collection of royalties and enforcement of copyrights? Who decides, to use your example, which recipes are the best? >Jonathan. I've got to go, but I would like to debate this further with you. My writing style can come across as terse--please don't interpret this as flaming. Sincerely, Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 11:05:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer Roberta What a nice answer! I am a member of ASIS. I have contacted CINAHL. They want you to be in California. I am looking for a "freelance" indexing job that I can do from my home in Edison, NJ. The same with PsychInfo. They want you in Washington, D.C. Where do I get ahold of the American Medical Informatics Association? or Chiroline? Sports Discus, or International Pharmaceutical Abstracts? Can you give me a city or a Website? Suellen On Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:07:00 -0700 Roberta Horowitz writes: >As a database indexer learning on the job is one part of it, another >is to have some training in information retrieval. The reason is that >understanding how information is retrieved gives excellent insight to >how to index. One place to look for some background are organizations >like American Society for Information Science (ASIS). Members of this >group come from a variety of disciplines and research/articles >published >in the Journal of the American Society of Information Science (JASIS) >include >classification research, information retrieval, controlled >vocabularies, >building thesauri, indexing, abstracting and text analysis to name a >few areas. I have been a member for many years and have gained a lot >of information from the annual meetings and the journals. ASIS also >publishes an annual review (ARIST) that has done a review on subject >analysis a couple of times in the last ten years. > >The home page for ASIS is http://www.asis.org. Abstracts and Table >of contents for JASIS and ARIST (Annual Reviews Information Science >and Technology can be found at http://bubl.ac.uk/journals/lis > > >Another organization is American Medical Informatics Association >which cover indexing/information retrieval in medicine (though not >to the exact at ASIS). Their home page (including abstracts from >their journal can be found at: http://www.amia.org > >In my opinion, companies do provide on the job training as it is >necessary to learn the indexing philosophy of the organization as >well as policy on how certain things are indexed. > >As for positions, I would say contacting the database producer is >one way to find out about open positions. In addition to Medline, >there >is CINAHL (nursing and allied health www.cinahl.com), Chiroline >(Chiropractic literature, this is the old name of the database), >SportsDiscus (exercise physiology, athletic training, sports medicine >etc). >PsychInfo (psychology literature), International Pharmaceutical >Abstracts >(drugs). Additional some of the allied health professions might have >their own database (I think Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy >have one) > >Hope this helps. > > >Roberta Horowitz >roberta@netcom.com > > > > >On Thu, 5 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > >> I, too, am a medical database indexer. Where would you suggest >getting a >> job "doing it."? I also write abstracts. Do you know of any open >medical >> freelance database positions? I don't mean to flame you. I know you >mean >> well. But I find your advice awfully vague. Suellen G. Kasoff >> >> On Thu, 5 Jun 1997 10:29:56 -0700 William Perez >> writes: >> > Hello Maxine and hello Index-L: >> > >> > As a database indexer, I would say the best way to learn >is >> > by doing it. Having basic indexing skills is an excellent >> > start. For most databases, the indexer applies a >controlled >> > vocabulary of headings and subdivisions to periodical >> > articles. As an indexer, you would need to learn both the >> > vocabulary and the subject matter (in your case, medical >> > journals). >> > >> > Some databases also require abstracts, so you may need to >> > brush up on your writing skills. >> > >> > >> >______________________________ Reply Separator >> >_________________________________ >> >Subject: Re: Database Indexer >> >Author: "Maxine M. Okazaki" at SMTPGATE >> >Date: 6/5/97 12:53 PM >> > >> > >> >------ =_NextPart_000_01BC71AF.7ED90AA0 >> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> > >> >Hi everyone. I'm also a newbie interested in database indexing. >> >Could = >> >you please post your responses to the list? Also, while we are on >the >> >= >> >topic of database indexing, can anyone recommend how I could learn >= >> >medical database indexing. I've completed the USDA Basic Indexing >= >> >Course. Thanks. >> > >> >Maxine M. Okazaki >> >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu >> > >> >---------- >> >From: Jim Wilson[SMTP:jimw@MAIL.TRANSPORT.COM] >> >Sent: Thursday, June 05, 1997 4:20 AM >> >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >> >Subject: Re: Database Indexer >> > >> >Hello all; >> > >> >As I am a newbie to the indexing world, I'm going to toss out my >> >"free coupon" allowing a question that you vets may see as 'odd' ? >> > >> >I see much reference to database indexing vs. book indexing. Can >> >someone point me to a site/document/report(?) discussing >differences >> >and/or similarities in these types of indexing? >> > >> >I appreciate your assistance, >> > >> >Jim >> >Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com >> >Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... >> >but three lefts do! >> > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 08:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: internet "publishing" Jonathan posits: >>What the Internet _will_ do is to centralise information. Instead of fifty >>publishers in twenty countries all duplicating effort and putting out >>their own Burmese Cookbooks, say, we can get the best recipes and put them >>together into an updatable archive that will be available world-wide. One >>copy of everything - and hopefully the best copy. And people like me, who >>want to read the stuff that was published last year and the year before, >>can do so to our hearts' content. > Actually, internet recipe seeking is a favorite pasttime of mine. But, somehow, I have very real doubts that the internet--largely concerned with whether something is public domain or not--is a valid arbiter of which Shakespeare edition is best. I want a choice at least of the scholarly insight I choose to consider. If we allow the "internet" to think and decide for us, perhaps our critical and analytic abilities will atrophy. Also, varieties of editions allow me to buy last year's annotated _Huckleberry Finn_. I delight in owning this exploration of a favorite novel. I also delight in the stunningly illustrated anniversary edition of _Animal Farm_. And, of course, mileage can vary. Other readers will only want last year's technothriller or each and every romance novel. Actually. Americans buy a lot of books. I really think print is here to stay. I suspect that the current, well-known large houses will continue the trend toward lowest common denominator. It could be seen as those who probably are best suited to producing quality and limited-interest books--university presses and small houses--will continue doing that and even grow. This is such a minefield of provocation, it's difficult to organize a response. I read myself into summer afternoon stupor or in bed each night with a book, not a laptop. It will take a while for this to change. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: UPS power supplies Okay, this may be the dumbest question in the world, but here goes... I just got a UPS to protect my computer. We have been having thunderstorms and lightning every day here in New Mexico, and I was getting seriously nervous about things. So my question is: can I _really_ keep working while things are booming and spiking outside? The literature that came with it says it protects you against spikes and surges and brownouts and all that, but doesn't actually say "you can keep working through lightning storms." Those of you with UPS's want to put my anxious soul at rest? There's another storm building up right now out there... Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:06:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Fictional characters Forgive me for covering old ground, but I can't remember details from = the thread about indexing the names of fictional characters. I am = working on a couple of books that explicate--in varying degrees of = detail--the plots of numerous short stories, novels, etc. = My questions are: Should I include the names of characters discussed? If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people? What treatment should I give to partial names, e.g., "Zeke?" The usual = "Zeke (Ida Teller's cousin)" might get a little cumbersome if I also = have to append the name of the work. To be a little more specific, one book I am indexing is about individual writers. The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in the funnies and soaps. = All opinions gratefully considered. TIA, Craig Brown The Last Word= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:06:30 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Jan, No question is dumb. I only fully trust the protectors that have a battery backup. My understanding is that a surge will not damage your machine if your protector is adequate but won't protect against the lost data if the machine shuts down. I have very old wiring here so have surge protectors coming out of every outlet but until I got this battery backup that pings every time there is a jolt did not realize how erratic my electricity is. I am delighted with my PowerHouse 500 which keeps me online even when the microwave loses it's time and begins to flash. So, guess I am saying it depends on what you expect protection from. A heavy duty protector should protect your machinery stopping the surges before they travel into your computer; a battery backup/protector gives you time to save and shut down properly in the event of electrical loss. :-> > > Okay, this may be the dumbest question in the world, but here goes... > > I just got a UPS to protect my computer. We have been having thunderstorms > and lightning every day here in New Mexico, and I was getting seriously > nervous about things. So my question is: can I _really_ keep working while > things are booming and spiking outside? The literature that came with it says > it protects you against spikes and surges and brownouts and all that, but > doesn't actually say "you can keep working through lightning storms." Those > of you with UPS's want to put my anxious soul at rest? > > There's another storm building up right now out there... > > Jan Wright -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 Johnathan, I have recently purchased from Amazon - books that they are searching for because they are hard to get (but they have found almost all of them)- and Harvard Business Review - because - both are on the internet and I now know what they offer and how to access them. Previous phone calls to librarys, bookstores and letters to publishers resulted in disappointment so I became trained to go to my local B and N and/or library and just get whatever they had on the subject. Imagine my joy to find these services actually able to supply "the" book I want - not just an approximation. I see the internet expanding my options rather than limiting them. I understand the economy of your vision however I have two points. First, the articles I asked for reprints of spanned the last fifteen years on leadership from HBR and I found none of them stale or dated or even contradictory, a fact I find amazing in this era of reengineering versus strategy, etc. Second, I am a very bright person. But I got a D in calculus only because the professor didn't ever want me in his class again. The other students were fine - I did all my homework to the limit of my abilities but just chalked myself off, as did the prof, as stuck in concrete thinking (mathaphobic). Older and wiser now I have learned that there are as many ways of explaining and teaching as there are people out there and were I to do it over I would just ask for a transfer to another class hoping to hit on the teacher who taught how I learn. My point being that there are never too many ways to go at a subject. We all have different comprehension and learning styles and the more written on the subject the greater the chance for success. Sometimes reading or hearing something put in just a little different way allows light to dawn on Marblehead! BTW - I did have my laptop in my bed at night to fall asleep reading from but found printing the material off and leaving the laptop on the desk works much better. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 13:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Database Indexer Suellen, you might try Information Science Abstracts at Plenum Publishing Corp., 233 Spring St., NY, NY 10013. Editor is Ann Meagher, telephone 212-620-8492. Bonny McLaughlin mclaughb@cgs.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 16:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: s mckittrick Subject: Re: Advice for a newcomer In-Reply-To: <199706080156.UAA24637@velcome.iupui.edu> Seasoned Index-l persons: What are your opinions about the second level USDA course "Applied Indexing" and the other USDA Certification of Accomplishment Course Programs (Editorial, Technical Editorial, Editorial Management and Professional Editor)? Are these highly regarded? Thank you for your input, Sharon vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Sharon McKittrick 317-352-0615 ssmckitt@velcome.iupui.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Sat, 7 Jun 1997, Elinor Lindheimer wrote: > I think we should all save Rica's advice and trot it out whenever someone > asks a similar question. It was excellent--including the time one should > expect it to take to "get into" the business. > > As for the USDA course, I have seen the curriculum and I am VERY impressed > with it. There are a lot of little things one needs to know to work as a > freelance indexer, and the course covers a lot of these little things while > teaching the big concepts.. > > Elinor Lindheimer > elinorl@mcn.org > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:22:17 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: The Indexer I am posting this query for Ann Meagher, editor of Information Science Abstracts, because she does not have email access at this time. Information Science Abstracts would like to index and abstract articles from back issues of "The Indexer." If anyone is willing to lend copies of the following issues, please email me and I will put you in touch with Ann. Ann assures me that the indexing and abstracting will be done in a timely manner and your issues will be returned as soon as possible. The issues needed are: Vol. 11 all issues Vol. 10 issues 1 & 3 Vol. 9 issues 1, 2, & 3 Vol. 8 issues 2 & 4 Vol. 7 issue 4 Vol. 4 issues 1 & 2 Vols. 1, 2, and 3: all issues Thank you, Bonny McLaughlin mclaughb@cgs.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:13:22 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Fictional characters At 03:06 PM 6/9/97 -0400, Craig Brown wrote: >Should I include the names of characters discussed? > >If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people? I'd say yes, if the discussion is substantive (more than a sentence or two, depending on the context). And I'd use some sort of typographic system to differentiate between character names and names of real persons (if the list is long and complex, and if the publisher will allow you to do this). Real people might be in roman type; characters might be in italic (probably not bold, as that is TOO eye-catching). Or, you could even do two separate indexes...real names, subjects, titles, and so forth, and a separate "character index." >What treatment should I give to partial names, e.g., "Zeke?" The usual = > >"Zeke (Ida Teller's cousin)" might get a little cumbersome if I also = > >have to append the name of the work. If the mention is important enough to warrant inclusion in the index, but the single name alone is not enough to identify the character, I think I'd feel compelled to include a descriptor (probably the title--or shortened title--of the book he/she appears in, but not the author's name). >To be a little more specific, one book I am indexing is about individual >writers. The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap >operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = > >names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = > >case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in >the funnies and soaps. = That sounds like how I would view it...again, depending on how much mention is made of individual characters in the first book. Good luck! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:28:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Jan, A UPS is designed to give you sufficient time to save your data and exit the program in an orderly fashion. Most only give you 10-15 minutes of battery time. Check the specs on the unit you bought. No, it is not advisable to try to work through a thunderstorm. I have had computer damage during a storm even with excellent surge protection. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: UPS power supplies Actually. The advice I follow is to exit my programs and computer and pull electrical plugs from outlets. But, in San Diego (sadly) this is rarely needed. If I lived where you do, I would be certain to fully back up often. The back up folks promise $ insurance, which should cover hardware, but what's on my computer is worth more than money. At 08:28 PM 6/9/97 -0400, you wrote: >Jan, > >A UPS is designed to give you sufficient time to save your data and exit the >program in an orderly fashion. Most only give you 10-15 minutes of battery >time. Check the specs on the unit you bought. No, it is not advisable to try >to work through a thunderstorm. I have had computer damage during a storm >even with excellent surge protection. > >Dawn Schroeder >The Perfect Page > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 22:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 4 Jun 1997 to 5 Jun 1997 I think the plate tectonics man was Wegener, and the 20's sounds close to the right time. Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:46:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Re[2]: Database Indexer In-Reply-To: <199706091510.IAA12614@mail5.netcom.com> Suellen AMIA http://www.amia.org SportsDiscu 800 665 6413 (Ontario Canada) Int. Pharm Abs 301 657 3000 (Bethseda MD) Mantis (Chiro is old name) 817 898 0234 (Denton TX) You might want to check out the Dialog (Knight RIdder) site as the blue sheets (these are descriptions of each Dialog Databases and describe contact, search issues and contact information) are online and this can give you plenty of databases to check out. http://www.dialog.com. Click on Products & Services. THen in the frame to the right, click on Blue Sheets. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Mon, 9 Jun 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > Roberta What a nice answer! I am a member of ASIS. I have contacted > CINAHL. They want you to be in California. I am looking for a "freelance" > indexing job that I can do from my home in Edison, NJ. The same with > PsychInfo. They want you in Washington, D.C. Where do I get ahold of the > American Medical Informatics Association? or Chiroline? Sports Discus, or > International Pharmaceutical Abstracts? Can you give me a city or a > Website? Suellen > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:01:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: indexing fictional characters Craig Brown asked, "Should I include the names of characters discussed? If so, how might I distinguish those from the names of real people?" A while back I indexed a most entertaining book on American film and foreign policy. To deal with this issue, how to index real vs fictional people, here are some excerpts from my index, so you can see what I did. [It's by no means comprehensive, I just grabbed a few entries!] I also supplied an extensive introductory note, indicating that titles of works were in italics, that fictional characters were indexed under their full names with the names of the actors who portrayed them in parentheses as well as under the names of the actors themselves, etc. As you can see with the Bond entries, some fictional characters were discussed apart from their portrayals, so I left them alone. I also kept full titles in for fictional characters, figuring that that's how they are known. Bond, James, 105, 125, 134 Bond, James (Pierce Brosnan), 197-98 Bond, James (Sean Connery), 116 Bond, James (Roger Moore), 125, 134-35, 168 Connery, Sean, 221n31; as Bond, 116; as Captain Mark Ramius, 191-92 Rambo, Johnny (Sylvester Stallone), 153, 164-65, 170, 182-83 Ramius, Captain Mark (Sean Connery), 191-92 Reagan, Ronald, 131, 147-48; as Brass Bancroft, 217n20; foreign policy, 149-53, 174-75, 204n4; misinformation, 217n17; as president, 147, 178; as Ronbo, 153; as Web Sloane, 79; Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI), 151-52, 177, 204n4; summits with Gorbachev, 175-78 Reed, John (Warren Beatty), ix, 167 Renko, Arkady (William Hurt), viii, 165-66 Ronbo, 153 Sloane, Web (Ronald Reagan), 79 Stallone, Sylvester, 157-58, 170, 183, 225; as Rambo, 153, 164- 65, 170, 182-83; Rambo: First Blood, Part II (1985), 164-65; Rambo III (1988), 182-83; as Rocky, 155-58, Superman (Christopher Reeve), 183-84 _Superman IV: The Quest for Peace_ (1987), 183-85, 226 Hope this helps, Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing * PilarW@aol.com Great Indexes for Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:03:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "[Gaye Tarallo]" Subject: Re: Newbie advice Hi, I want to thank all of you who offered such great advice to me. It has really been helpful in helping me make decisions as to the next steps I should take in starting my indexing business. It's great to know that there is such a great support group out there. Gaye Tarallo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: Fictional characters Craig writes: > I am = > working on a couple of books that explicate--in varying degrees of = > detail--the plots of numerous short stories, novels, etc. <...> >The other is about such pop phenomena as comic strips and soap > operas. In the case of the first book, my feeling is that indexing the = > names of the writers and their works alone should suffice, and in the = > case of the pop phenom book I should index actual names of characters in > the funnies and soaps. = Unless the studies in the first book are comparative studies of the characters themselves, I would not index the character names. Since what you have are explications of plot and general discussion of the works, separate entries for the characters will not point to any information not covered under title and author entries, and I think would mislead the index user into thinking there was some such special (and unusual) information. On a spot check, I can't find any examples of indexes in my sizeable lit-crit collection that index the character names included in a work being discussed. On the other hand, the comic strip and soap opera characters as pop culture phenomena might well be known and discussed independently of their original contexts, and so I, too, would lean toward indexing those. FWIW, Jenny Rowe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Fictional characters Here's my 2 cents as an academic librarian giving people advice on how to research a character in a play or novel. No one has time to read everything that can be found on the work in question, but one can look in the index to see if the character one is looking for is in there. I f the disscussion is even a paragraph in context of the work or contrast to other characters that would be very useful to a student or other interested readers. We love finding characters indexed. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Geraldine Hall Gray "Gerri" ghg@loyola.edu Head Reference Librarian 410-532-8787 x115 Loyola/Notre Dame Library "We are drowning in information and Baltimore, MD 21212 starving for knowledge." John Naisbitt +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Re: Fictional characters' names in the index Dear Craig: I am a monographic (book) cataloger who uses the Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH). LCSH has authorized headings: Falstaff, John, Sir (Fictitious character) Sawyer, Tom (Fictitious character) Bunyan, Paul (Legendary character) Spider-Man (Fictitious character) LCSH routinely makes cross references to these names in direct order (not last name first), but no cross reference is made to Shakespeare or Twain. However Superman (Fictitious character) did get cross references for Kent, Clark and Clark Kent and Bugs Bunny (Fictitious character) got one for Bunny, Bugs! This is not necessarily an endorsement of LC's practice for your indexing purposes but just to let you know how catalogers have dealt with a similar problem in library catalogs. ******************************************************************************** Jean A. Thompson PHONE: (518) 442-3628 Monographic Cataloger FAX: (518) 442-3630 University at Albany/SUNY University Library, B-35 E-MAIL: thompson@cnsvax.albany.edu 1400 Washington Avenue Albany, NY 12222 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fictional characters Craig, One approach is to index the character's name clarified with a parenthetical reference to its creator, e.g., Barks, Carl characters Donald Duck, 34-37 Scrooge McDuck, 45-49, 102, 105-119 McDuck, Scrooge (Barks character), 45-49, 102, 105-119 Uncle Scrooge. See McDuck, Scrooge (Barks character) or, Scrooge McDuck. See under Barks, Carl, characters Fun job, eh? Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:05:58 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Oxford Dictionary Survey Someone posted the URL for a survey being conducted for the Oxford Online Dictionary recently. I deleted the email after checking it out and now a friend is interested in seeing it. If anyone could resend me that URL privately I would appreciate it. Thanks. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 15:25:03 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Water Cooler Chat - Feedback I've been struck with an uncontrollable urge to communicate, because an editor just called and reported that the author is "very happy" with the index that I created for a 1000 page in small type translated book with endless footnotes and appendix on law provisions. Whew! Makes it seem almost worth all the pain and who could better understand than other indexers. Effusively, Lee Brower ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:10:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Water Cooler Chat - Feedback Lee Ellen Brower wrote: > > I've been struck with an uncontrollable urge to communicate, > because an editor just called and reported that the author is > "very happy" with the index that I created for a 1000 page in > small type translated book with endless footnotes and appendix on > law provisions. Whew! Makes it seem almost worth all the pain > and who could better understand than other indexers. > > Effusively, Lee Brower That is wonderful! Thanks for posting this... it is always nice to know that an indexer is appreciated. Good work :-) :-) :-) :-) -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services mailto:norcross@ix.netcom.com (919) 852-0042 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:53:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanna Flaherty Subject: ASI: Philadelphia Group--CALLING ALL INDEXERS CALLING ALL INDEXERS--potential, beginning and experienced. On Saturday, June 28, from 1 to 3 pm BRING YOUR INDEXES for constructive comment and also to prepare to be an evaluator. In other words, we will look at each others indexes, hoping to be inspired by good ones and to learn from the less-than-ideal. No scoring, no winners or losers. If you have no index of your own, bring someone else's index, good or bad, or come without an index for the fellowship and light refreshments. Place: Wissahickon Valley Public Library, Community Room, 650 Skippack Pike (Route 73), Blue Bell, PA, in Montgomery County. Phone 215-643-1320 (Kathy Berry, Librarian) The Library is three buildings from the Blue Bell Inn. Don't confuse this library with the branch library on Butler Pike in Ambler. For More Information: Ann Cassar 319 Brinton Lake Road Thornton, PA 19373 610-459-2380 Posted by Jeanna Flaherty Jeanna Flaherty I N D E X I N G Philadelphia, PA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:07:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9e_Olivier?= Subject: accessing archives In-Reply-To: <199706110054.UAA14039@opus.autoroute.net> Help! I'm trying to figure out (if it's possible) how to access the archives (specifically the thread about Cindex 6.1 freezing up) for a friend and I'm not having much luck. I sent a message to the listserv with "index index-l" in the body but can't make heads or tails of it. Will some kind soul please shed some light on the matter (privately or through the list if appropriate). Thanks in advance. P.S. I'm a wanna-be-indexer. I follow the list and enjoy it, especially the helpful comments, but have trouble keeping up with the volume of posts! Josee Olivier jolivier@autoroute.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 00:26:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Lisa C. Sick" Subject: Database Indexing To those inquiring about database indexing: About getting into the field: it's a matter of having basic analytical ability, and a good sense of "aboutness". Probably the best way to learn is by doing, which is probably easier if you have some areas of subject knowledge and/or the knowledge of or experience in database searching--as someone else mentioned, knowing the process of information retrieval is essential to good indexing. It is a good idea to have some technical writing ability, as many database producers have their staff to abstracting as well as indexing. I've been indexing for 13 years, for databases on education, psychology, aging, alcoholism, and music. Actually, you should check the employment ads, ads in professional journals, etc. Check the database catalog and write/call to see to if they use freelancers--some allow their freelances to not be local. One of the best ways to find work is by word-of-mouth, too. Good luck--database indexing is fun, and the work is constant. And once you get good at abstracting/indexing, you can vary your subject matter a little bit, which keeps it interesting. Lisa Sick Information Specialist Arlington, VA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:45:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706120233.WAA01405@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:55:02 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: accessing archives Okay, there are two ways to access the Index-L archives. 1) Go to the ASI web site, http://www.well.com/user/asi/index.html, scan down and click on Online Discussion Groups, scan down until you see Index-L archive, and click on the gopher address. The archives there are searchable, but not up to date. 2) Send the "index index-l" command to the listserv (LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu). What you should get back is a list of back issues of the Index-L digest. Sorta. Here's the pertinent section of the List FAQ: > Contributions sent to this list are automatically archived. You can > get a list of the available archive files by sending an "INDEX > INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or > LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). You can then order these files > with a "GET INDEX-L LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database > search facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more > information on the latter. According to these instructions, you need to remember the approximate date of the thread you are interested in, then send the listserv the "Get index-l logxxxx" command, where the x's are replaced by the correct code for that week. Here's a line from the message that returns when you send the "index index-l" request: >INDEX-L LOG9706B ALL OWN V 80 1408 97/06/11 08:44:03 Started on > Sun, 8 Jun 1997 19:11:01 +1000 Thus, if I wanted this particular digest, I would send a message saying "Get index-l LOG9706B". The part of the line you want to send is the LOGxxxxx part. The other stuff is computerese telling you who has access, etc. and at the very end is "started on" which tells you the date the digest, well, started. I've never used the database command, but that's a third option. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Dempsey Subject: Ergonomics--again! -Reply Voice Recognition Software. I do not have personal experience with any of this, but if it does what blurbs I have seen recently say that it does, it might enable you to get away from typing and from using the mouse. The blurbs I have read recently are from IBM and from Dragon software. If anybody else has had experience with this type of software, I would be interested in hearing your impressions. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:57:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: Ergonomics--again! Susan, Not to be alarmist, but one thing you really have to do is take it easy. Hopefully you can find a chair, desk and keyboard that lighten the stress so you can keep up your workload, but... I have a relative who has herniated discs C4-C7 over the past four years (C5/6 just last month) and she recently had to see a neurosurgeon to find out whether paralysis from the neck down was an imminent possibility. Luckily, he said it's not likely (note: he didn't say it definitely wouldn't happen), but you should know that once the pain is gone, you can't necessarily resume normal activities. The discs will likely herniate again or, worse, rupture! Best of luck finding ergonomic help!!! As far as work habits, the best advice I know of is to follow the physical therapy regimen religiously, and take a break when you feel pain. Janice Coffield - A sympathetic and empathetic neck pain sufferer from long before I began indexing. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:08:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Ergonomics--again! -Reply Susan, There are a lot of office furniture products that may help-- you should talk to your neurosurgeon and physical therapist for recommendations. Specifically, your desk chair could make a big difference. You should look for something with adjustable arm rests, adjustable height and good back support. I have used the ergonomic wrist supports for keyboards and mouse pads (mice pads?), and although they take some getting used to, they do help. You also may want to consider finding a way to lower your monitor. Primarily, though, I agree with Janice that the best solution is to listen carefully to your neurosurgeon and physical therapist and follow their regime religiously. I had a pinched nerve in my shoulder blade many years ago (not nearly as bad as what you have, but painful nonetheless), and I stopped the regime as soon as the pain went away. Needless to say, I reinjured myself within six months and had to start all over again! Hope this helps! --Sharon Wright, another sympathetic neck and back pain sufferer. >>> Susan Healy 06/11/97 08:45am >>> Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some help and suggestions. Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension and spasms and more pain and loss of function. So, my questions are: 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them? 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? 3. Any hints for work habits? 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight back. No head support. The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. Would appreciate all suggestions. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Susan Healy wrote (horrific description of herniated-cerivical-disk symptions snipped): > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > Susan, I don't know if this will be realistic for you, but in our office some types of indexing can be handled reasonably well by having the indexer use a dictaphone. We use that method--or at least some of us do--for session law indexing, a situation in which all the entries are new and one index is being built from scratch. It seems to me dictation would also work for indexing of all-new statutory material. That leaves amendments and repeals, but at least it's less mousing around. If your office has, or can borrow, data entry staff who can be trained in whatever indexing software you use, I think it's worth it to save your health. Other little things that can help: a stand to hold whatever statutes volume you're working from, so that you're just turning pages rather than lifting the whole book; having somebody separate the lineprinter printouts into separate pages and storing them in folders, so that you generally don't lift the whole pile when you're working with it (I'm guessing these are reverse printouts of the index?); unstapling the bills, for the same reason--as I work with our current appropriations bills I'm reminded that I should do this myself. Best of luck and better health to you! -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:31:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! At 08:45 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? A week ago I finally took the plunge and splurged on a Hermann Miller ergonomic chair. It cost $1,200 but so far I am extremely pleased with it. It sort of looks like a lawn chair because the back and seat are metal frames with mesh fabric stretched over them. It has adjustable lumbar support, pneumatic lift, arms that adjust up and down and in and out, adjustable tilt tension, etc. I was skeptical about the mesh surfaces and had originally looked at another make that was conventional upholstery, but that one was heavily sculptured and the sculpturing just didn't match my curves. The mesh version is very comfortable, no pressure points, feels like I'm sitting in a hammock. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:19:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kayla Bovenzi Subject: herniated cervical disc Hello Sue, I also have a herniated cervical disc, actually I have two but one is very small. I have had sore and stiff shoulders on and off the last 4 years but an x-ray showed nothing out of the ordinary. Last March I woke up one morning very stiff and real sore through my shoulders and neck and within 24 hours I could hardly move due to the pain. An MRI showed the herniations and my doctor sent me straight to the neurosurgeon. I went the same route with the steroids, codeine and anti-inflammatories. The neurosurgeon wrote me a prescription for physical therapy and I started with three sessions a week. After two months of therapy I am 98% better, so far. Before therapy I had the pain down my arm and into my hand with tingling but I never had any numbness. The neurosurgeon stressed the importance of fixing the nerve compression, either with therapy or surgery. I am an indexing specialist for West Group and my job sounds much more varied than yours. I don't type and use the mouse all day, which I am sure greatly helps my situation. The exercises that the therapist taught me have helped a great deal and I am going to try and keep them up. I am afraid that if I don't I will end up back at square one. I also had electromuscular stimulation and cervical traction as part of my physical therapy. Stress plays a big role in aggravating this condition so I am trying to keep that in mind. I wish you the best of luck. I know for me, this has been a very scary situation as well as painful. This type of condition can change your life. Kayla ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:34:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Twin Cities Chapter of ASI, Annual Meeting The Twin Cities Chapter of the American Society of Indexers will meet on Saturday, June 28, from 11:15 to !:00 p.m. at the Merriam Park Library, at the corner of Marshall and Fairview avenues in St. Paul, MN. Chapter members who attended the national ASI meeting in Winston-Salem will report to the rest of us about that conference. We'll also report election results and give the annual report on the condition of the chapter. Finally, we'll brainstorm ideas for meetings in the coming year. Bring a bag lunch if you like, but definitely bring your ideas. Especially if you are a new or aspiring indexer, come and let us know how we can help you. Call Maryann Corbett with questions or to get directions. Work phone below; home phone 612-645-5985. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:05:47 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111432.IAA17161@Rt66.com> I second, third, etc, etc Dick's recommendation of the Hermann Miller Aeron chair. It wasn't in my budget, either, but once I'd tried it out in the showroom I knew there wasn't much point in looking at anything else! It's definitely the chair technology of the future. And although my neck still isn't perfect, I can spend long days at the desk without those twice-weekly trips to the chiropractor, and I'm rarely in as much pain as I used to be. I did, however, manage to find it at a local office furniture place where it was discounted--without the armrests (which I will add when cash flow allows), I paid only $700. The armrests, I believe, are about $250. So be sure to shop around. Along with the physical therapy and massage that you're pursuing, I would highly recommend hunting down a Doctor of Oriental Medicine (that's what they're called here in NM; possibly Licensed Acupuncturists there?) who either specializes in sports medicine, or is trained in Acupuncture Orthopedics. There's a great deal that can be done with this approach to complement the more standard treatments, including dramatically increasing the body's own healing capacity. Stress management, of course, is another benefit. There is a National Sports Acupuncture Assocation, as well as an Acupuncture Orthopedics institute (can't remember just now what it's called); both would be able to provide you with local referrals. (If you were closer to Albuquerque, I'd send you to my husband, who is a member of both...but you're not!) If you want more information, contact me off-list and I'll see what I can find out. And for now, take that resting & PT very seriously! Good luck! Caroline Parks At 10:31 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >At 08:45 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >>4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > >A week ago I finally took the plunge and splurged on a Hermann Miller >ergonomic chair. It cost $1,200 but so far I am extremely pleased with it. > It sort of looks like a lawn chair because the back and seat are metal >frames with mesh fabric stretched over them. It has adjustable lumbar >support, pneumatic lift, arms that adjust up and down and in and out, >adjustable tilt tension, etc. > >I was skeptical about the mesh surfaces and had originally looked at >another make that was conventional upholstery, but that one was heavily >sculptured and the sculpturing just didn't match my curves. The mesh >version is very comfortable, no pressure points, feels like I'm sitting in >a hammock. > >Dick > > ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:07:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA03662@mx3.u.washington.edu> Instead of asking for a specific piece of equipment/type of furniture, ask your employer for a workstation evaluation by a competent ergonomic specialist. That person will look at your workstation and the way you work and make specific (and individualized) recommendations as to monitor placement, keyboard height, chairs, lighting, and all the other factors that contribute to ergonomic safety. We've done this for a number of employees in my library, and the state (not our budget) has provided them under ADA legislation with the chairs, keyboards, and (in one case) voice recognition software necessary to allow them to continue working despite RSI. Competent consultants also recognize that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone; a 5'1" 25 year old with perfect vision has very different ergonomic needs than a 6'2" bifocal wearer. So advice you get on this list (or anywhere else) may work well for one person but be a disaster for someone else. Most freelancers lack the resources for this type of consultation, so we have to rely on experimentation and recommendations from colleagues until we 'get it right' - often spending lots of money on stuff that DOESN'T work until we find the combination that fits our bodies and working style. Which is why my junk cabinet at home contains 2 different types of unused keyboard trays, a monitor stand, 2 different types of wrist rests, a foot rest, unuseable copy stands, and numerous other ergonomic aids that weren't. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:14:45 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Susan, I hope you are doing better by now. I've seen a lot of good suggestions come by on the list. I had surgery for L5 years ago as I was in a situation which demanded I be mobile and I had let the pain go unattended too long. A friend had the C5 you do and she proceeded along daily exercise lines and did quite well with no changes to her lifestyle other than that. About four months ago I began to have the numbing and tingling in my arm you describe. I put my mouse on top of the desk so that my arm is 45 degrees up from my elbow. My wrist rests on an ergonomic pad and allows my hand to move freely with no pressure from the arm while mousing. I have a good chair, and a computer desk top at mid-torso height. I am sure the physical therapist will teach you how to lift and move things and recommend the proper height for your work area tools. I know I had to be retrained on how to lift things, take breaks from sitting or standing - Old Ben Franklin was right - moderation in all things. If you can't work in moderation then force yourself to take breaks - I work at two computers - a desktop and a laptop at different heights and mice, etc. For me variety makes a big difference. I could really relate to the statement: "Something like this can really change your life." I had the back surgery. Expedient and removed the ruptured material from my sciatic nerve; however, the tradeoff was no more volleyball, running, jumping, bowling, bicycling or any activity tht puts pressure on the spot where the cushioning disc material is missing or I have severe pain again and nothing helps but bed rest. Surgery is drastic and if you can avoid it with exercise and lifestyle changes I would recommend that. I still miss my sports. I was only 35 and emotionally, I felt my life was over and I was an old lady. Thirteen years later I know my life certainly wasn't over but it was quite a traumatic episode and did change the direction my life took. Best of luck to you. -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:55:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Ergonomics/ Voice Recognition Software ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC7666.BE3F6A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My husband uses Kurzweil Voice voice recognition software and he really = likes it. You have to "train" the software to recognize your speech = patterns. When you first begin using the program, it is learning to = recognize how you pronounce words. After a while, the program will = prompt you to further "educate" it by saying specific words or sounds. =20 My husband also says: You-have-to-speak-with-a-pause-between-words, but = after some training it is quite accurate. Shortcomings include inability = to use context, so for example did you say 2, to, or too? You need to = either watch it as you work or proofread the results. It is very good = with number entry, for example data into a spreadsheet. Also permits = voice commands such as "file save" and "down arrow." If anyone has any questions, e-mail me and I'll be happy to pass them = along. Maxine M. 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Okazaki" Subject: Embedded Index in Word97 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC766A.1E77A620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a question about embedding index entries in Word97 and I hope the = group can help me. Take, for example, a two paragraph long discussion = about fishing on page 7. When the book/manuscript is edited or revised, = the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. If I merely embedded an = index tag either at the beginning or the end of the paragraph, then in = the revised/edited version, the index would refer to fishing on either = page 7 or 8, depending on which page the tag is on. In order to avoid = such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to = selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? That way, if the original bookmark is = on one page and in subsequent editions/revisions it shifts to multiple = pages the correct pages will be referenced. My gut feeling is that = using bookmarks is the compulsive way to go, but it would take much too = much time to select the text and insert the bookmarks for all the index = entries. I know I need to balance my compulsive nature with what is = practical. Also, if I remember correctly, in an earlier thread there was some = comment about earlier versions of Word crashing during compilation of = the index if there were too many bookmarks in the document. Is this = true also with Word97? =20 As you can probably tell, I have yet to embed an index, but I am talking = with a publisher who definitely wants the index embedded to make = revisions for updating the book easier for them. I am planning to index = the whole book using Cindex and then embed the entries from a page sort = order printout. I would appreciate any comments from experienced indexers. Thank you. Maxine M. 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McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Ergonomics/ Voice Recognition Software Maxine, I purchased and use the IBM voice recognition package for dictation ($59). After a few hours of training I found it highly reliable for legal and fairly standardized business contracts but still finicky with non-dictionary terms such as personal names and, as you said, context. It is important to pause and enunciate clearly - am able to get 99% accuracy with corporate bylaws and similar documents without the add-on legal dictionary in a quiet office. My results weren't nearly as successful on the train between NJ and Boston. So background noise appears to play a big part also. Now if they allowed you to add to your dictionary of terms before starting a letter I bet the accuracy would increase again. I know there are dicionaries for legal and medical terms that increase the price and probably the accuracy. Wonder if there is an indexers dictionary as a "plug-in". What would the market bear and who would be competent to develop it . . . Gail Rhoades? > > -- Virginia G. McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Hi Susan-- << 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what do you think of them?>> I really like my "wavy" keyboard. Once I got used to it (it took about 2 weeks) and could find all of the keys again (I'm a touch typist) I noticed an immediate respite in the pain in my right arm and shoulder. I've been using the keyboard for about a year and wouldn't think of changing back. Two additional points: 1) I bought a mid-price keyboard, which seemed to have a somewhat lighter touch than the top-of-the-line Microsoft keyboard. But the number keys are split differently--I have to type "6" with my right index finger rather than my left. 2) I have to constantly remind myself not to pound on the keyboard. This too helped ease some of the pain. <<2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse?>> One downside to the ergonomic keyboard is that it is wider than standard keyboards. This is a problem for me because I keep my mouse to the right of the keyboard and find that I now have to reach for it. I have short arms so I'm back to aggravating the shoulder again. I'm constantly shifting the keyboard around to try to find a happy medium for comfortable typing and comfortable mousing. So I'm training myself to use keyboard options rather than the mouse whenever possible. But back to your question--I did find one model of ergonomic keyboard that has a glidepad on it below the space bar. I'm toying with the idea of trying that out. <<3. Any hints for work habits?>> I too do indexing of statutes for the Minnesota Legislature and find myself dealing with the same bulky materials as you . Maryann Corbett has already offered some useful suggestions. Another thought I had is this: The configuration of my desk is L-shaped, with my computer to my left and the writing surface to my right. Early on I developed a bad habit--when working on the writing surface I fully faced it, and just sort of swiveled to the left to check out something on the computer. This meant that my left arm was typing at a wierd angle and my right arm was stretching. I had to retrain myself to turn my whole body to face the computer--that too helped some of the arm/shoulder problems. <<4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? >> I have a chair on wheels, with armrests, and a pneumatic lift (easily goes up and down). When typing, I raise the chair at least 6-8" higher than I have it for doing other work at my desk. Both my grade school piano teacher and my high school typing teacher insisted that wrists and elbows should be higher than fingers when doing either of those activities. This means I need a footrest too, but isn't that what old telephone books are for? Good Luck! Terri Hudoba Indexers Plus tahudoba@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:53:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 Maxine M. Okazaki writes: << I have a question about embedding index entries in Word97 and I hope the group can help me. Take, for example, a two paragraph long discussion about fishing on page 7. When the book/manuscript is edited or revised, the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. If I merely embedded an index tag either at the beginning or the end of the paragraph, then in the revised/edited version, the index would refer to fishing on either page 7 or 8, depending on which page the tag is on. In order to avoid such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? >> Yep, bookmarks are the best way to go. The only problem is if the Word chapters will eventually be placed in a page-layout program... not all page-layout software is able to read bookmark. Where I work, we embed our index entries in Word and then place the Word files into PageMaker, which is unable to read Word bookmarks. Our workaround is to embed an entry at both the beginning and end of the discussion. (Copy-and-paste comes in handy here.) In the fishing example, I'd embed a code on page 7 and another on page 8, so the compiled index would read fishing, 7, 8 We then run a separate macro that will combine the numbers into page spans (7-8). (Without the macro, it takes about 2 hours to manually combine the page numbers. Ugh!) In the case of lengthy discussions, I try to place a code on each page to make sure I have the whole span covered. I've never had a chance to work with Cindex (hopefully sometime soon...), so I've never had to index a book and then embed the codes separately. It does sound like a lot of work, though. You might experiment a little and index a chapter directly in Word... it's really not that bad once you get used to it. :) Erika Millen Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 10:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Greetings, fellow Indexers - This is my first posting to this group, and it's in reply to Terry Hudoba's question about ergonomic keyboards. I tried the "wavy" kind for about a month and then switched back to the standard straight one. I did not like the wavy one because: 1. Its tilt was too extreme. I find it easier to type on a flatter board -- better for my wrists too, then unnaturally flexing them back. 2. It's too *big*. The mouse had to sit far over to the right. I was either reaching for the mouse, or pushing the keyboard to the left and trying to type on it that way. (That's a whole different keyboard problem -- why are they ALL made with the calculator keypad on the right? I'd sure love to find one chopped off after the arrow/function keys! That would free up desk (mouse) space.) Keyboard comfort, like to many things in life, is subjective. My brother has used a wavy keyboard since they were created and he won't switch back. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: New indexing area, perhaps I just attended a local entrepreneurs' luncheon, where I happened to meet a couple of lawyers. (No, this isn't leading to a lawyers' joke.) One of them told me that their clerks are called on to index long depositions so that the lawyers can find relevant statements quickly. I thought I'd pass that tidbit along in case any of you want to pursue that kind of work. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:30:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Farr Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA03662@mx3.u.washington.edu> Susan, My deepest sympathies to you! In November of '94, I ruptured my L4/5 disc, and went _far_ too long without decent treatment, and had the same kinds of symptoms you describe, but from hip to toe. Herniated discs DO get better, but it takes t i m e. I estimate that by now I'm 95% healed, and without surgery. I've had 5 epidural steroid injections, the last over a year ago. The things I found that help the most: -Stay faithful to your PT regimen. -When you get pain, STOP doing what causes the pain. And I mean NOW. -Try to reduce stress as much as possible. -Two alternative medicine treatments I found very helpful (recommended by a friend who ruptured a cervical disc in a car wreck) are St. John's Wort Oil and Cat's Claw Bark capsules. St. John's Wort oil is supposed to help regenerate discs. You rub it on the skin directly over the damaged disc, as much as you can get the skin to absorb, tissuing off the excess. Repeat 3X per day. Cat's Claw Bark is apparently a powerful anti-inflammatory, among all the other wonder claims. I take 1-9 500mg capsules per day, depending on pain. Cat's Claw Bark is available in most coops and natural food stores, even in Walgreens (!), but the highest quality is from natural food stores. I get my St. John's Wort oil by mail order from Quintessence in Madison, WI -- reply to me offlist for the phone # and address. Have courage -- you WILL get better. I've been there, and hopefully with the collective wisdom of this list, your recuperation will be quick. Liz Farr Los Lunas, NM On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:55:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! A tech writer experienced the same problem. A slender woman who walked daily, she also worked intently at her desk all day. The doctor said her back problem and surgery were directly caused by sitting for long periods, and could have been avoided by getting up and stretching frequently. It seems that fluids don't circulate well in a constant sitting position. This is certainly not the cause of everyone's problems in this thread, but may be helpful to someone. Linda Cast ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Author: Elizabeth Farr at unixlink Date: 6/11/97 11:30 AM Susan, My deepest sympathies to you! In November of '94, I ruptured my L4/5 disc, and went _far_ too long without decent treatment, and had the same kinds of symptoms you describe, but from hip to toe. Herniated discs DO get better, but it takes t i m e. I estimate that by now I'm 95% healed, and without surgery. I've had 5 epidural steroid injections, the last over a year ago. The things I found that help the most: -Stay faithful to your PT regimen. -When you get pain, STOP doing what causes the pain. And I mean NOW. -Try to reduce stress as much as possible. -Two alternative medicine treatments I found very helpful (recommended by a friend who ruptured a cervical disc in a car wreck) are St. John's Wort Oil and Cat's Claw Bark capsules. St. John's Wort oil is supposed to help regenerate discs. You rub it on the skin directly over the damaged disc, as much as you can get the skin to absorb, tissuing off the excess. Repeat 3X per day. Cat's Claw Bark is apparently a powerful anti-inflammatory, among all the other wonder claims. I take 1-9 500mg capsules per day, depending on pain. Cat's Claw Bark is available in most coops and natural food stores, even in Walgreens (!), but the highest quality is from natural food stores. I get my St. John's Wort oil by mail order from Quintessence in Madison, WI -- reply to me offlist for the phone # and address. Have courage -- you WILL get better. I've been there, and hopefully with the collective wisdom of this list, your recuperation will be quick. Liz Farr Los Lunas, NM On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Larry E. Edmonson" Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Ergonomics advice should be obtained from experts in the relevant fields, not from indexers! Carolyn Weaver put it well when she emphasized "that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone." Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. If I sound strident on this issue, it stems from frustration. I can still produce thousands of pages per year because I sought out, and followed, advice from a first-rate neurologist, an internist, a PhD ergonomist, and several physical therapists. By contrast, a friend who had symptoms far less severe than mine and who consulted only one incompetent MD, who was practicing outside his specialty, remains convinced that she is permanently disabled from doing any work whatsoever. You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical advice without ever having seen the patient. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:34:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New indexing area, perhaps Indexing depositions seems to be not uncommon. A couple of summers ago, my pre-law (then) college student worked at our county attorney's office doing just that. Don't know if professional indexers ever get called upon in that way. But it's being done. Janet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 14:40:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! Larry, You are correct about medical attention. However, consider this: If your friend with the incompetent MD had had the opportunity to read about your experience, she would have also asked the right questions and found the first-rate neurologist, etc. Your information, like the rest, is the best education tool that a group of people in a career path could share about hazards and corrective actions. As you can imagine, no one reading this thread will make the mistake of letting computer-related pain go untreated. Linda ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Author: "Larry E. Edmonson" at unixlink Date: 6/11/97 2:40 PM Ergonomics advice should be obtained from experts in the relevant fields, not from indexers! Carolyn Weaver put it well when she emphasized "that there is no ONE correct solution for everyone." Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. If I sound strident on this issue, it stems from frustration. I can still produce thousands of pages per year because I sought out, and followed, advice from a first-rate neurologist, an internist, a PhD ergonomist, and several physical therapists. By contrast, a friend who had symptoms far less severe than mine and who consulted only one incompetent MD, who was practicing outside his specialty, remains convinced that she is permanently disabled from doing any work whatsoever. You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical advice without ever having seen the patient. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:52:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Tortora Subject: Re: cervical troubles Sue, Last year I underwent surgery for a ruptured disc at C5. I also had bone spurs and a pinched nerve. In my case, the disc was pressing on my spinal cord and as you might imagine, there was great risk of paralysis. I am happy to report that the surgery was a great success, the numbness and pain are gone, and life is good again. The procedure kept me in the hospital only one night and at home I was in need of some help for about a week. But I was able to do many things. It was more of an annoyance than anything else. The pain was not too bad. My hip hurt (they take a piece of bone from there to replace the disc), but this too passed. If surgery is needed, do it and be free of pain. Just my 2 cents. Sue Tortora Tortora Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:03:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: Re[2]: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706121957.PAA17630@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Larry, I appreciate your strong feelings about seeking professional help for a serious neurological problem. I am only able to type this reply now because I did seek medical attention, because my HMO has a wonderful referral policy, because my primary physician ordered an MRI immediately and got me in to see a neurosurgeon at once. My future includes physical therapy, a referral to the Mayo Clinic's neurology unit pain clinic, and consults with whoever else I wish to see. My questions to fellow indexers were about indexing and the hardware used to do the job. And I thank everyone who was so kind to take the time to share their experiences with me. Sue Healy Florida Legislature ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:00:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: herniated cervical disc Physical therapy didn't help me one wit so I underwent cervical fusion (C5&6) 16 yrs ago. Fusion looked tight after 6 wks, but was 4 whole months before I was back to work. Fixed everything--no more pain, numbness, nausea, etc. Two associated results are sometimes problematic; restricted neck movement makes looking back over left shoulder a very conscious effort that engages my whole upper torso, and (surprise!) paralyzed vocal cords from the physical trauma of doing the neck fusion from the ventral/front side made relearning audible speeck a 3-yr project. The pain/tribulation trade-off was well worth it. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:00:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 In a message dated 97-06-11 13:32:01 EDT, you write: > In order to avoid = > such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to = > selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? That way, if the original bookmark is = > on one page and in subsequent editions/revisions it shifts to multiple = > pages the correct pages will be referenced. My gut feeling is that = > using bookmarks is the compulsive way to go, but it would take much too = > much time to select the text and insert the bookmarks for all the index = > entries. It is a balancing act. I do bookmark most of the entries that are page ranges, and haven't run into problems yet about the piece crashing because of too many of them, but I also haven't done this on anything larger than 150 pages. Keep a very clear eye on what you name the bookmarks, as duplicated names could cause you big problems. Be very careful as well to start them in the paragraph itself, and not in the space above the paragraph or including the page break symbol, as that will throw things off. I haven't done it yet in Office97 -- good LUCK! Blaze the trail and tell us what happens! Maybe they fixed some of this stuff and you will have no problems at all! Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:38:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Larry, in your note you remarked that >Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" >should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. The woman was in this pain while en route to the hospital. She wrote to us later not for a diagnosis, but for any anecdotal information we might have available. Personally, I think these forums are helpful in allowing a person to express their anxiety and frustration about business and well as personal issues. And I'd like a show of hands of anyone who has NEVER gotten good medical advice from a friend, from "take an aspirin" to "you'd better see doctor about that." Yes, we are all rational people and know that we have to weigh what is being said against who precisely is saying it. I listen to my doctors differently than I listen to my friends. But, believe me, I consult both. -- Lindsay ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:36:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! At 09:05 AM 6/11/97 -0600, you wrote: >I second, third, etc, etc Dick's recommendation of the Hermann Miller >Aeron chair. It wasn't in my budget, either, but once I'd tried it out in >the showroom I knew there wasn't much point in looking at anything else! >It's definitely the chair technology of the future. And although my neck >still isn't perfect, I can spend long days at the desk without those >twice-weekly trips to the chiropractor, and I'm rarely in as much pain as I >used to be. > >I did, however, manage to find it at a local office furniture place where >it was discounted--without the armrests (which I will add when cash flow >allows), I paid only $700. The armrests, I believe, are about $250. So be >sure to shop around. Also bear in mind that it comes in three sizes and mine was the largest. I especially like the armrests. They pivot horizontally so that I can swing them inboard when I'm sitting and outboard when I get up. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:02:46 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: More on book overproduction vs the Internet Anne Cleester Taylor writes: > You do have an interesting take on the importance of publishing. No > offense meant here--truly, but it seems quite egocentric. From my > perspective (academic librarian), new books do not push out last year's > models. So what if you didn't read all the new books in the field this > year? What if you read only those on "x" subtopic and your colleagues are > reading the "y" subtopic? I'm approaching this from two points of view. First, as an indexer of university textbooks, I find it hard to believe that a field like - say - organisational behaviour, changes so rapidly that a brand new edition of the introductory textbook is required every year: but of course publishers and authors make a buck from the new edition that they couldn't make if students were just trading second-hand copies between themselves. Secondly, as a fan of detective stories I find it sad and annoying that great classic mysteries from the 20's through to the 80's are pushed off the shelves by modern formula 'mysteries' about cats and recipes. It's not that people haven't chosen to read the classics: they simply don't have the choice, because the classics aren't available in bookshops, and even in libraries are hard to find. Gresham's Law applies to books as well as money (no, that's not John Grisham). As a result, many people's reading perspective doesn't extend beyond the month before last. > I've been working on the 'Net for some years and while your scenario is > laudable (Librarian's Pipe Dream #1), I don't see it as realistic. There > are several assumptions buried within it: Humans can't agree on even > simple things--centralize information under whose authority? There are > international battles going on now about what can or cannot be accessed by > people within certain countries. Publishers are profit driven, who would > control the collection of royalties and enforcement of copyrights? Who > decides, to use your example, which recipes are the best? What the Internet can do is to match supply and demand. If there are 10,000 people scattered around the world who want to read book X, it's not economical to publish and distribute it by traditional means, but it is economical to publish (and charge) for it over the Internet. Even a reading public as small as two thousand people could support an Internet niche publisher who was catering to their requirements. So I don't see the Internet so much as reducing the amount of material published - rather as a way of matching that material more closely with the people who want to read it. And yes, there are lots of technical, legal and political problems in the way at the moment, and for the foreseeable future. Step 1 towards a technical solution would be to come up with a robust, high-contrast-screen, paperback-sized PC, and I see the Pilot 500 and the Apple Newton as being a move in this direction. This is getting a bit off-topic, but I'm happy to continue discussing it privately. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:59:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: working with lightning I wouldn't work in a storm! Two reasons. Your UPS isn't god. Every surge it takes is going to help wear it out. Secondly, don't forget the phone l= ine! My brother-in-law was out of work for two years after being hit by lighte= ning through the phone. (Fortunately his boss was on the other end of the line= so he didn't need to prove what happened). A good surge protector should protect your UPS and any modem lines going to your equipment. But I still= wouldn't risk it--what if it failed when you were working? Could you affo= rd to wait two months until the surge or UPS company replaces your equipment? = ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:00:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Sub-subheadings for perspective In answer to your question to me, Carol Roberts. Two sources on avoiding third level headings are: Hans Wellisch, "Subheadings: How many are too many?" Key Words May/June 93, the box on top of page 13 and Nancy Mulvany= , "Indexing Books" (excerpts from her book) in Key Words Jan/Feb 94 pages 6-9. Carol, your example was about what to do with a subheading that applied to "perspective" in general and to its subheadings "perspective: multiple station point" and "perspective: linear." Basically, I do not understand your choice of using adjectives as subheadings to a noun, rath= er than posting the headings directly under the adjectives, e.g., "linear perspective" and "multiple station point perspective", where some users m= ay look and then providing a see or see-also reference from the noun, = "perspective"? On the other hand, if you felt that all readers would look= under the noun for these terms, shouldn't you have used a comma, e.g. "perspective, linear" and "perspective, multiple station point"? Personally, in this case I prefer direct entry under "l", "m" and "p" because it's been my experience with library patrons that if they don't find something the first place they look, they give up. Hence, the more places you can list something, the better. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Virus checkers I have just had an unfortunate experience with virus checkers. Perhaps you can profit from it. My system was apparently infected with an MS-Word virus from a DOC file attached to an e-mail message. Norton AntiVirus did not pick it up and I did not know about it until I sent a DOC file to a friend who uses Dr. Solomon's virus checker, which found it. I then installed Dr. Solomon's and found it too. Unfortunately, I had already sent several DOC files to others, including clients. The virus is called WM/DZT. I have no idea what it does and had not seen any symptoms from it. Were it not for Dr. Solomon's, I would never have known it was there. Apparently it is spread by simply opening an infected file and thereafter resides in NORMAL.DOT and infects other files created with that template. The point is, I thought I was protected by Norton AntiVirus. Now I'm running both and still not feeling secure. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:16:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 In-Reply-To: <199706111724.KAA15305@mx5.u.washington.edu> I can speak from experience that if an index entry for Word straddles a page you may end up with the page reference being wrong. I found this, however, to be a very, very minor problem in a large index I did recently, that is, there was only one case where this happened and in that case the entry could just as as easily refer to one page or the other. If you simply embed the entries and have the customer generate them at the end how do you compensate for error and how do you do multi-page references or see references? Bookmarks and fields go just so far and everything gets so complex.... Re: the reliability of Word97. So far so good. The only problem is that you cannot use Word97 to display a Word 6.0 document and expect the pagination to remain the same. As long as everyone is using Word97 everything is fine and dandy. The internal "word" at MS was that indexing problems with earlier version of Word have been fixed with Word97. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:20:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Virus checkers In-Reply-To: <199706112106.OAA28738@mx4.u.washington.edu> What version of Norton Antivirus do you have? And if you have the most recent one, have you updated? I think they now have a fix for the virus you found. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 15:42:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Virus checkers In-Reply-To: <199706112220.PAA06151@mx4.u.washington.edu> Updates to the Norton Antivirus virus definitions can be downloaded free from the Symantic web site at This site also has a great virus info dictionary. IMHO, having a virus checker that's out of date is more dangerous than having none at all, since it give you a false sense of security. (This is true for any virus checker - not just Norton.) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, P. Buell wrote: > What version of Norton Antivirus do you have? And if you have the most > recent one, have you updated? I think they now have a fix for the virus > you found. Paul D. Buell > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:27:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Virus checkers At 03:20 PM 6/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >What version of Norton Antivirus do you have? And if you have the most >recent one, have you updated? I think they now have a fix for the virus >you found. Paul D. Buell Version 2 for Win95. I update every month. If they have a fix, it was not there as of the June 1 upgrade. This is the second time Norton has hosed me. About a year ago it gave me a false warning and destroyed an entire partition when I let it *fix* the problem. I'm staying with Dr. Solomon. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:42:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: working with lightning Thanks to all who replied to me. Fortunately, since the UPS arrived, there hasn't been a storm. Does that mean it's working? Kinda like washing your car makes it rain? Hey, this is great! Anyway, the official word from the company that makes the thing is -- yes, you can work through a storm. (My UPS does have protection for my modem line). But as the tech support person said, if you do work in a storm, the UPS could get fried. It's better than frying the computer itself, but then you need to get a new UPS. Its your choice. So it's better to unplug and save both! I've decided the best route for working in a storm is to pull everything, and work on my laptop till the battery runs out. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:26:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In a message dated 97-06-11 15:21:48 EDT, Larry E. wrote: > Ergonomics advice should be obtained from experts in the relevant fields, > not from indexers! Carolyn Weaver put it well when she emphasized "that > there is no ONE correct solution for everyone." Carolyn did make an excellent point, one that I agreed with. Sue asked us very specific questions about whether we used ergonomic keyboards, etc. Telling her that whether we do does not in any way conflict with Carolyn's excellent advice. > > Anyone with "pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak" > should consult medical experts, not wordsmiths. Did any of us give her any medical advice except to reinforce what her own doctors were already telling her? And she didn't *ask* for medical advice. When she had the pain that was so severe, etc. she went to the ER, not to Index-L. > > If I sound strident on this issue, it stems from frustration. I can still > produce thousands of pages per year because I sought out, and followed, > advice from a first-rate neurologist, an internist, a PhD ergonomist, and > several physical therapists. By contrast, a friend who had symptoms far > less severe than mine and who consulted only one incompetent MD, who was > practicing outside his specialty, remains convinced that she is permanently > disabled from doing any work whatsoever. Well, I can produce thousands of pages per year despite having seen three orthopods, three neuros, a chiropractor who gave me 9 months of therapy, etc. because I *have* to do it, regardless of how much it hurts. Mine just went too long untreated because I didn't even know what in heck those weird pains were and eventually ended up in the maw of California's Workers Comp system whose ulterior goal is to serve the lawyers, insurance companies, and doctors involved, not actually cure the patients. (Believe me, my attorney actually flat out told me that when I broke the rules by going to see yet another doctor!!!) Instead I gulped huge quantities of Advil every day. What did get me to see a doctor was a coworker who confided in me (feeling extremely silly while doing so) that he was having these really weird pains and I shocked him by saying I was having the same symptoms. Neither of us would have gone to the doctor had we not talked to each other because c5-6 injuries produce such weird symptoms that we both felt downright silly until we compared symptoms. (Well, I did mention them earlier to my endocrinologist who hadn't a clue, making me feel even sillier about it.) I would have gone when it got to the point where I couldn't lift my right arm and my right hand was turning blue (which eventually happened *after* I started treatment), but as it was, I waited until *he* went to his doctor and found out what was going on. When I found out how seriously his doctor was taking it (considering surgery), I knew I was in trouble (but still waited having had major surgery less than a year before and was reluctant to embark on yet another major medical adventure). So, there is indeed value in sharing even medical information among laypeople. In fact, I found out some useful medical info about something else from a layperson on the Internet who told me where to check the relevant medical databases. I mentioned it on another list I'm on where another person who found it useful printed out the abstracts of the relevant studies and is taking the info to his doctor. Doctors don't know *everything* and even some of them will admit that the Internet is beneficial in enabling patients to exchange information and come to them bearing stacks of relevant medical research that *they* would have otherwise been unaware of. Now, are you categorizing ergonomic information as medical information? Or is it that because there are specialists in the field that we can't respond to someone's specific questions about what works for us? And none of this is to undermine Carolyn's excellent advice. She is indeed right, but though Sue's employer may be able to bring in an ergonomics expert, not everyone here can afford to do that. > > You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that > indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own > works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical > advice without ever having seen the patient. No comparison here. Telling someone that I use an ergonomic keyboard and a Kensignton mouse does not constitute medical advice, IMHO. Are you saying, being that I've just had a flare up of my own shoulder condition, that I have to go out and pay megabucks to someone to tell me how to redesign my environment when I happened to note something that someone posted may be an easy cheap solution? Someone posted something that made me realize that my chair may be just a tiny bit too low and I really needed that info. If you're objecting to the herbal advice that was given, you're not likely to get that from most degreed medical professionals anyway because it's alternative medicine. I for one appreciated the St. John's Wort and the Cat's Bear Claw info. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:26:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In a message dated 97-06-11 09:01:41 EDT, Sue wrote: > I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. Sue, You are definitely right about this vicious cycle and you want to break it ASAP (which you are doing). Ouch!!!! (This is said in the throes of having my own similar injuries having flared up over the past few days.) > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? I'm using the Microsoft Keyboard and it's excellent for preventing carpal tunnel injuries, IMHO. Your injury isn't a carpal tunnel injury, but you don't want to get that on top of everything else, don't you? ;-D > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? We had a thread here almost a year ago where glidepads were discussed. Folks that lived in humid areas said that there was a corresponding variation in glidepad sensitivity with the humidity. So when my mouse died on me, I went to using a Kensignton Expert Mouse, which is actually a track ball. I love it!!!! This is extremely important in my situation because I've destroyed my right shoulder (AC) joint and tore up the superspinatus tendon that runs over the joint by using the mouse. With the trackball, I do not move my arm at all, only my fingers. My former employer where I sustained all of these injuries did not believe in buying us ergonomic furniture. As a result, we were all dropping like flies with three big worker's comp cases in one year. And after 8 years of being in the Navy working with high voltages, on ships, etc., I thought working in an office would be safe!!!! Hah!!!! At least the Navy gave you the proper equipment and was big on safety. OTOH, my former employer told the two of us with neck injuries that if we wanted to have computer desks, we'd have to buy them ourselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, I did end up buying the proper computer furniture when I set up my OWN business with the insurance settlement I got. But had I been given the choice, I wouldn't have literally given those idiots my right arm as I did!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, just had to get that off my chest. > 3. Any hints for work habits? In the throes of my current C5-C6 flareup, I've gone back to marking page proofs by hand away from the computer. If by the time I finish marking them I still have the icy-hot pain going down the arm, the one that you've unfortunately come to know so well, I'll have hubby key the entries into Macrex. IOW, it's probably best to stay away from the computer as much as possible while things are bad. Also, don't sit staring at the screen for long periods of time without moving your head and neck. I've heard of this injury being referred to as "fixed-gaze" injury. Need we wonder why? ;-D Paradoxically, I was also told to avoid repetitive movements of the head and neck. That can easily happen with indexing as we look back and forth between the copy stand and the screen. (I was also told not to ever work with computers again, but... ahem... let's be realistic here.) > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. Aiiiish!!!! That high monitor is what led to my own neck injury! Between that and the mouse-caused shoulder/rotator cuff injury I was rated as 47% permanently disabled by California Workers Comp. So, you see, these things shouldn't be played around with. (At least you didn't ignore your pain like I did. So you probably don't have as much damage.) Please find a way to lower the monitor as soon as you return to work. Can you put the CPU on the floor, for example, instead of having the monitor sitting on top of it. One caution, though, about putting the CPU on the floor. If you put it on end in one of those special holders made for that, you may get disk errors because the hard drive wasn't originally formatted with the computer in that position. That's why our desktop CPU that's sitting on the floor--to avoid having the monitor sitting on top--is flat on the floor, even though it's taking up a ton of room under the desk. > I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. Ummm, unless you're into taking naps at the computer, I don't think you need head support on the chair. ;-D Are you comfortable in it for long periods of time? Well, it's probably best to answer your question after you lower your monitor. If so, it's probably OK. But even then, they recommend that you get up every so often (which I don't remember to do unless I'm bored and restless with what I'm working on). > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. Usually they tell you no heavy lifting with a neck injury and all of those things sound pretty heavy. Also, as others stressed, do the recommended physical therapy and take prescribed anti-inflammatories. I went to physical therapy for 9 months and even though that only got me to the point to where they could rate me at 47%, at least I could turn my head further and was eventually able to go through life without being constantly stoned on painkillers. ;-D Hope this helps. Hang in there and know that you have some very sympathetic ears out there!!!!!! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:29:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: herniated cervical disc In a message dated 97-06-11 11:45:51 EDT, you write: > An MRI > showed the herniations and my doctor sent me straight to the > neurosurgeon. I went the same route with the steroids, codeine and > anti-inflammatories. Oh, I hear that!!!! And we can't omit those wonderful tests that were devised by the Father of Neurology--the Marquis de Sade--the electromyogram and the nerve conduction velocity tests--where they zap you with electricity, watch your muscles twitch, and look at the signal on an o-scope while you lie there screeeeeaming for mercy, now can we? ;-D (You got away without that? I didn't.) >The neurosurgeon wrote me a prescription for > physical therapy and I started with three sessions a week. After two > months of therapy I am 98% better, so far. Before therapy I had the > pain down my arm and into my hand with tingling but I never had any > numbness. The neurosurgeon stressed the importance of fixing the > nerve compression, either with therapy or surgery. My mother worked at data entry terminals for years, years ago, and thus damaged not only the disk but the actual vertebrae (either C5 or C6). This was before PCs and the increasing awareness of ergonomics. So she had to have surgery in her neck to actually replace damaged bone! That's how bad it can get. So, have we shocked everyone into making sure their monitors are low, their setups fully ergonomic, and that their powder is clean and dry? I hope so. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:52:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <970611202609_979418017@emout18.mail.aol.com> >> On Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:26:32 -0400 (EDT), >> Wildefire@aol.com said: W> Also, don't sit staring at the screen for long periods of time without W> moving your head and neck. I've heard of this injury being referred to as W> "fixed-gaze" injury. Need we wonder why? ;-D I spend quite a bit of time at my keyboard, and having a chair that quietly rocks has probably done more for my back health than anything. I've attached my favorite bookmarks on ergonomics. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: Reducing eyestrain URL: http://www.inforamp.net/~poynton/notes/reducing_eyestrain/index.html Interesting paper about reducing eyestrain from video and computer monitors. Title: Typing Injury FAQ URL: http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/general.html Advice for the initially injured and pointers to resources across the Internet and inside your local bookstore. Includes injury and ergonomics information and major internet information sources on listservers, newsgroups, FTP and Gopher sites as well as WWW websites of note. * General info on injuries * Typing posture, ergonomics, prevention, treatment * FAQ's About Computer Ergonomics and Workstation Injuries * Publications * Mailing Lists/Listservers * Newsgroups * Anonymous FTP/Gopher Archives * Info about keyboards, mice, software, and furniture * Some Other Good WWW Resources Title: Typing Injuries URL: http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~dwallach/tifaq/archive.html Extensive anonymous ftp archive, including the typing injury FAQ (frequently asked questions), alternative input device information (descriptions, reviews, and GIF images), and some software. Title: Computer Related Repetitive Strain Injury URL: http://engr-www.unl.edu/ee/eeshop/rsi.html * What's RSI? * Symptoms * Prevention * What If? * Books * Network Sites * Products Title: Ergonomic Computing (or Don't Let Your Computer Cripple You!) URL: http://www.amara.com/aboutme/rsi.html Deals with repetitive movement injury: * Definition and Symptoms * Causes * Treatment * Habits for Healing and Promoting Health * Some Posture Guidelines * Workstation Ergonomics * Monitor Placement * Wrist Pads * Some RSI Resources Title: CUErgo - the Cornell Ergonomics Web URL: http://www.tc.cornell.edu/~hedge Information is available on the following projects: * Preventing Carpal Tunnel Syndrome: the Cornell/Honeywell Study * Postural Risk Factors for Back Injury - Cornell Dairy Study * New Carpet Emissions, Indoor Air Quality and Human Health * Indoor Air Quality and the Sick Building Syndrome * Breathing-Zone Filtration and Indoor Air Quality * Office lighting: Direct and Indirect Lighting Systems * Information on other Human Factors and Ergonomics Sites Title: TechTime articles on RSI Injuries URL: http://hoohana.aloha.net/~billpeay/TECHT08.html Seven-part series on Repetitive Stress Injuries (sometimes called Repetitive Strain Injuries). Title: A Patient's Guide to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome URL: http://www.sechrest.com/mmg/cts/ctsintro.html Title: Medical Matrix - A Guide to Internet Medical Resources URL: http://www.kumc.edu:80/mmatrix/ Specialty disease information; lots of categories. Title: National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health URL: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/homepage.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:04:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: INDEX-L confidential? I am doing an indexing workshop for some local tech writers in a couple of weeks, and I planned to include instructions for getting on INDEX-L. When reviewing the confirmation message I got when I subscribed, I found this warning: IMPORTANT: This list is confidential. You should not publicly mention its existence, or forward copies of information you have obtained from it to third parties. Please note that the "GIVE" command is automatically disabled for all archive files. It appears in the section describing the INDEX-L archives. Does it apply just to the archives? Can I "advertise" INDEX-L in my workshop? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:11:02 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA12956@dns1.mcn.org> My chiropractor (and I've said this here before) recommends 10 seconds of standing up and/or stretching for every 10 minutes of any repetitive activity, which sitting is (and so is standing in one place). I set Macrex to automatically save every 10 minutes, thus reminding me to stretch. My neck (I've got a disk problem at C6) is much healthier when I remember to do this. I have the Microsoft Wave keyboard and have been much better since. But I don't use a mouse when I index. As a child my fantasy typewriter improvement was one that would type my thoughts, so I'm intrigued by the voice recognition software and tried to get it in my disability rehab package, but failed. Well worth exploring. I still feel it would be worthwhile to have for myself, to give me more mobility. I set the keyboard in my lap as I work, which allows me to have my reference material (page proofs or whatever) directly in front of me rather than to one side. I have a slant board (homemade) that supports stacks of materials, even oversized. This too has been crucial to my health. I know others on the list have worked out systems where the keyboard is still on a shelf or something and they still have room for copy directly in front of them. The slantboard is the equivalent of an editor's desk. Having the copy directly in front, at the right height (whatever that is), is not something that most ergonomics consultants address. Your chair really needs to have a seat tilt adjustment as well as the other usual adjustments. Also, mine has a rocking function which I use most of the time. That way the chair stays with me as I lean forward and back in my work (checking reference books, etc.). The rocking movement of the chair, vs. a static chair, has been a real boon. I strongly agree with the advice to take apart bundled materials wherever possible so that you can cut down on the lifting of them. Take advantage of all the workplace analysis and evaluation, movement evaluation, etc., that you are able to get. More knowledge is better. Best to you, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:25:36 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9e_Olivier?= Subject: accessing archives I tried to send a message to all of you yesterday but it doesn't appear to have gone through. Please excuse me for posting twice just on the off chance that it did. I am trying to help a friend with a problem, therefore I need to know how to access the archives, specifically the thread about Cindex 6.1 freezing up. Thanks in advance! P.S. I sent a "index index-l" command to the listserve which didn't appear to do what I wanted. Josee Olivier jolivier@autoroute.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:09:42 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2002@pacbell.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ljm2002@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Virus checkers Richard Evans wrote: > Version 2 for Win95. I update every month. If they have a fix, it was not > there as of the June 1 upgrade. > Dick Dick, I have to differ with you. I just checked my Norton AV virus list (updated as of June 1) and there are fixes for three versions of WM/DZT listed. And my version of NAV is over a year old. I don't know why you don't have the fixes. Laura -- To email a reply, change 2002 to 2001 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:54:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Re: Embedded Index in Word97 I'll reply to the first part of your inquiry: >...the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. If I merely embedded an >index tag either at the beginning or the end of the paragraph, then in >the revised/edited version, the index would refer to fishing on either >page 7 or 8, depending on which page the tag is on. In order to avoid >such errors in the index shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to >selected text (i.e. bookmarks)? I'm not a professional indexer, but I think that would be not merely compulsive; it would be wrong. The purpose of an index is to help the reader find information. If a passage as short as a single paragraph happens to span two pages, does knowing that fact help the reader find the information? I don't think so. It merely clutters up the index. To me, common sense dictates that references to material less than a page long should refer to the starting point, not the range. I'll add an urgent caution about using bookmarks in Word: if you insert bookmarks, and then edit the document, you run a large risk of having bookmarks devour large parts of the document. This is a design flaw that persisted through several versions of Word up through Word 95, and I would not be surprised to find it in Word 97 as well. In brief, what happens is this: when you insert material immediately before or after a bookmark, the bookmark expands to include the new material. This is usually *not* what you want. If you're just inserting index tags the problem may be less critical, but if you (or another author) are editing the text as well... watch out. I almost never use page ranges in indexes for embedded Word documents, for precisely this reason. Jonathan Sachs Sand River Software, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 18:23:12 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: herniated cervical disc In-Reply-To: <199706112001.NAA11057@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Diane wrote >Physical therapy didn't help me one wit so I underwent cervical fusion (C5&6) >16 yrs ago. Fusion looked tight after 6 wks, but was 4 whole months before I >was back to work. Fixed everything--no more pain, numbness, nausea, etc. Two >associated results are sometimes problematic; restricted neck movement makes >looking back over left shoulder a very conscious effort that engages my whole >upper torso, and (surprise!) paralyzed vocal cords from the physical trauma >of doing the neck fusion from the ventral/front side made relearning audible >speeck a 3-yr project. The pain/tribulation trade-off was well worth it. Hi Diane Nice to read your post. I thought before I got to your last sentence that you would have a bad surgical outcome to present - three years to 'come back' is a l-o-n-g time. But that only emphasizes to me how awful your pain must have been before the surgery. My story is not spine-related, but is pain and surgery related. I had been asking for a hysterectomy for 10 years before I got one. The surgeon also reworked the bladder, but it didn't take. Ten months after surgery, when he asked me how that particular part was working, I told him surgery had not improved anything, but that I did not care, that I was out of the complete pain that I had lived in for 10 years, and that I was grateful. In other words, Diane, I heard how awful your pain was prior to surgery, and even with the hassles after, it was worth it. BTW, we now have an interim minister too. Heather Lynn Hanson from Texas. She seems to have good skills (especially in conflict management) and a vision of what she wants to accomplish. I'm looking forward to her settlement here. Martha, UU indexer from Eugene ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:19:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: INDEX-L confidential? In-Reply-To: <199706120106.UAA39742@audumla.students.wisc.edu> At 09:04 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >I am doing an indexing workshop for some local tech writers in a couple of >weeks, and I planned to include instructions for getting on INDEX-L. When >reviewing the confirmation message I got when I subscribed, I found this >warning: > > IMPORTANT: This list is confidential. You should not publicly >mention its > existence, or forward copies of information you have obtained from it to >third > parties. Please note that the "GIVE" command is automatically disabled >for all > archive files. > >It appears in the section describing the INDEX-L archives. Does it apply >just to the archives? Can I "advertise" INDEX-L in my workshop? ... Huh? How long ago did you receive this message? The last time I subscribed to this list was in September of 1995, and there certainly was no such clause in the welcome message I received at that time. However, if you ask for a list of the members of the list, you get back a message which includes a summary of list parameters--currently one such parameter is "Confidential= Yes". I have asked for this information from three other lists that I subscribe to--this parameter is set to "No" for those three lists. I have no idea what the significance of this parameter is. I think this calls for a historical summary from Charlotte. Rollie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 05:20:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Disability Insurance The thread on "Ergonomics-again!" brings to mind my question about disability insurance. It obviously becomes a problem for us if we become incapacitated for any reason. Doesn't anyone on this list of disability insurance? I wasa little surprised not to see any thoughts on the list about this issue. Any info on disability insurance would be appreciated. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Techncial Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Wondering why New England didn't have this heat wave last Thursday morning when I left for Monhegan and slept in longjohns Thursday nite...) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 06:26:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Reina Pennington Subject: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <01IJYRPTSMLK9FLBWB@InfoAve.Net> Susan, I'm so sorry to hear about your herniated cervical disc! Yikes! I posted some thoughts on ergonomics a few months ago -- here's the gist. I can't stress enough how much utility and ergonomic relief there is in adjusting your setup so that the materials you work with are directly in front of you (below the monitor). The simplest thing is to buy one of those rolling computer desks -- mine has a monitor shelf which allows you to put the monitor at eye level, with a big slantboard below (about 11 1/2 " by 26"), and a pull-out keyboard shelf the same width. There's about a 1/4 inch lip on the slant shelf, but you can slip a slat into it to help hold thicker documents. The slant shelf is a little short for legal-height docs, unfortunately, but easily holds a three-page-wide spread of papers. You could use the editor's desk from Levenger's to accomplish the same thing. I use a halogen torchiere, which gives glare-free light over the whole area. You can adjust the light level up or down -- up to see the document better, down if you're looking mostly at the monitor. (For Lindsay Gower who asked, "why are they ALL made with the calculator keypad on the right? I'd sure love to find one chopped off after the arrow/function keys! That would free up desk (mouse) space.) I don't have an ergonomic keyboard, but I DO have a wonderful thing called a "Switchboard" from Datadesk. This is a modular keyboard that allows you to swap the modules to whatever spot you prefer. I have the numeric pad on the left (since I rarely use it), the QWERTY-spread in the *center* (so my hands are nearly always dead center), and I have a trackball module in the right slot. Thus, I don't have to use a mouse, all my hand motions are minimized, and there's even room left for my coffee beside the keyboard. Datadesk doesn't make the Switchboard any more, but you can still buy one directly from the company. They have a new, very small keyboard called the Trackboard; no numeric pad, but a builtin trackball on the right. Works with either Mac or PC. The two most critical elements are the slantboard directly in line with the monitor, and the keyboard with an integrated trackball (touchpad, etc.). Reina Pennington Dept. of History, University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:13:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: INDEX-L confidential? At 12:19 AM 6/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >... > > Huh? How long ago did you receive this message? August 28, 1996. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:40:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Grosshans Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Susan, One thing that has helped me a lot is a trackball. I have the one made by Kensington. It has a large ball so you can use your entire hand. I find that being able to change the position of my hand and use any finger to click on the buttons relieves some of the stress. Not having to *hold* the mouse really helps. It's even easy to use your other hand. Good luck! -- Janice Grosshans jmg@kodak.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:34:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: herniated cervical disc Martha, Relearning audible speech to get beyond a high, hysterical whisper over a 3-yr period gave a series of speech pathology interns a challenge they were delighted to experience. People who don't now remember what my voice used to sound like think it's back to normal, but I know it's several tones deeper. My new voice makes singing tenor instead of alto my norm, and now the challenge for choir director interns is learning to ask for "Lower voices" instead of "Men only." Joining the choir was a voice therapy tactic that paid off in learning to match desired tones. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:18:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Fictional characters Thanks to all who responded to my query. I plan to use all of your suggestions. Not in the same index, of course, but over a period of time= =2E = Good stuff. Craig Brown The Last Word ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:23:15 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: INDEX-L confidential? I recently had to resubscribe to Index-L after changing Internet providers. My welcome message is dated 03-25-97 and the confidentiality admonishment is there, as well. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:53:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Confidentiality Dick, I can't imagine that it means that you can't tell anybody that INDEX-L exists. That would kind of defeat the purpose wouldn't it? If no one could tell anybody else about INDEX-L then there would not BE an INDEX-L. Would there? My two cents. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fictional characters When I index literary criticism, and characters are discussed (which is happening a lot less in the lit crit I run into these days, BTW) I always index them followed by the work they appear in in parentheses: Heep, Uriah (^David Copperfield^). Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:18:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Embedded Indexes and Short Ranges (was: Embedded Index in Word97) Maxine, What you are talking about -- indexing short ranges using embedded indexing tools -- affects anyone who embeds index tags or markers and is not a problem unique to Microsoft Word. (The issue of too many bookmarks is, however.) Somewhere, someplace, I came across a rule that explained it was a stylistic choice whether or not to index ranges that extended only two pages. The argument against two-page ranges is that a reader knows to continue reading until there is no further information; he or she is not simply going to stop because the page ends. In addition, since ideas very often do cross the page breaks, including two-page ranges will quickly clutter up almost any index. (If you have two separate references that are only one page apart, use a comma.) On the other hand, when information spans over several pages (say, three or more), it is a good idea to identify the reference to the reader as "a large smattering of information" -- and thus the range communicates something more than just the start and end points of the reference. It communicates a purposeful length. When it comes to embedded indexing, this "rule" comes in *very* handy. So when I ask myself, "How long does the reference have to be before I consider it a range?," I use the following rule of thumb: If the information could at some point run across three separate page numbers, then it's a range. Otherwise, consider a single-page reference. I should add as a postscript that in some cases, when you are using embedded tags, you may even run into a problem with art placement. I've often considered two paragraphs of information, with one paragraph on each of two pages, only to discover that three page-long tables were going to be inserted between them. This dilemma, I fear, is simply a procedural downfall of indexing before the book is finished. -Seth Maxine M. Okazaki writes: > I have a question about embedding index entries in Word97 and I > hope the group can help me. Take, for example, a two paragraph > long discussion about fishing on page 7. When the book/manuscript > is edited or revised, the discussion on fishing now covers pages 7-8. > If I merely embedded an index tag either at the beginning or the > end of the paragraph, then in the revised/edited version, the index > would refer to fishing on either page 7 or 8, depending on which > page the tag is on. In order to avoid such errors in the index > shouldn't all embedded index entries refer to selected text (i.e. > bookmarks)? That way, if the original bookmark is on one page > and in subsequent editions/revisions it shifts to multiple pages > the correct pages will be referenced. My gut feeling is that > using bookmarks is the compulsive way to go, but it would take > much too much time to select the text and insert the bookmarks > for all the index entries. I know I need to balance my compulsive > nature with what is practical. -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth Webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.well.com/user/asi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:43:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! Sue, Sorry to be coming to this late (at least I think I am, having spent the last week moving and collecting messages unread), but I was having some back and shoulder problems earlier in the year, and someone on another message board told me how her physical therapist went into the office with her and helped set her up to be ergonomically correct for her particular problems. This was all covered under her insurance. I don't know if this would work for you, but I think it's worth a try. To answer specifically, I use the Microsoft ergonimic keyboard and love it. I hate using any other keyboard now. I've been using it for 1 1/2 years, and wouldn't trade it for the world. I also use a logitech track ball and like that very much also. It is far less stress than a regular mouse. And, because "mousing" was causing most of my problems, I try very hard to use keyboard shortcuts instead of the mouse whenever possible. I tried the glide point and hated it. I created more stress than relieved it. Almost everyone I've known who's tried does not like it. Best of luck. I hope you're feeling better. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:07:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: Re: Confidentiality In-Reply-To: <9706121554.AA08128@ciesin.org> The confidentiality set up might be related to web indexing of listservs by search engines. I know that some listservs are indexed by search engines such as AltaVista and Lycos (especially if the ones that are also newsgroups). Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: ^ ^ http://www.ciesin.org/~mshams/acr.html ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:19:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706120413.XAA14312@mixcom.mixcom.com> >You are all rational persons. Does it not strike you as strange that >indexers could espouse the theory that authors should not index their own >works because they are not expert indexers yet feel free to give medical >advice without ever having seen the patient. > Nope, it strikes me as human. People do it all the time. AT parties, on e-mail lists, etc. Of course I agree with you that people should be seeking advice from experts. OTOH, I don't think we should refrain from relating anecdotes about our own experiences. If nothing else, it serves to remind people that there *are* a variety of treatments, so they should not necessarily assume they are getting the full picture from one doctor's opinion (as your friend's experience illustrates). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706120413.XAA14312@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Not to be alarmist, but one thing you really have to do is take >it easy. Hopefully you can find a chair, desk and keyboard >that lighten the stress so you can keep up your workload, >but... I have a relative who has herniated discs C4-C7 over >the past four years (C5/6 just last month) and she recently >had to see a neurosurgeon to find out whether paralysis from >the neck down was an imminent possibility. Luckily, he said >it's not likely (note: he didn't say it definitely wouldn't >happen), but you should know that once the pain is gone, you >can't necessarily resume normal activities. The discs will >likely herniate again or, worse, rupture! Best of luck finding >ergonomic help!!! As far as work habits, the best advice I >know of is to follow the physical therapy regimen religiously, >and take a break when you feel pain. I have to just jump in here, because I had a ruptured disk in my lower back last fall and had a chance to gather a lot of opinions from doctors. Three doctors recommended surgery but, when pressed, each one of them finally admitted that most herniated disks and ruptures will heal themselves without surgery. Often, some rest and sometimes a steroid injection will do the job. They also told me that studies have shown that five years after surgery, there was no difference between the group that had surgery and the group that didn't. Same degree of recovery. Reading further about this (newspaper article by an orthopedist), I learned that the period of rest should be relatively short. Walking is supposed to be one of the best remedies for these problems, because it strengthens the muscles around the spine and produces the chemicals that aid the body's natural healing process--something that'll never happen lying in bed. Sorry to ramble on and sound like an infomercial. I'm not a doctor and I don't play one on TV. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:49:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Confidentiality In-Reply-To: <199706121708.KAA27680@mx5.u.washington.edu> On this confidentiality issue: I had a dog of a time finding this list. Confidential or not, it is nearly invisible. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "(Pamela Venneman)" Subject: ASI Mail Hi all, I just received a call from Bonnie at ASI, and I volunteered to send the following on to the list: If you send mail to ASI make sure you have the correct PO box number. The wrong number is listed on the publication ordering page in KeyWords. The correct number is PO Box 48267. She is working hard trying to retrieve ASI's mail from the other box, so if you are waiting for a response, this could be the reason. Pamela Venneman Lighthouse Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:23:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kerry McFall Subject: Confidentiality of list I just signed on two days ago, and was surprised to see the notice about confidentiality in my subscription confirmation notice since I got the list name from an article in an STC publication. If it really was confidential before, for whatever reason, I don't think it is anymore! Kerry McFall kmcfall@diginsp.com Digital Inspections http://www.diginsp.com 541-752-7233 (w) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: INDEX-L confidential? Richard Evans wrote: > > I am doing an indexing workshop for some local tech writers in a couple of > weeks, and I planned to include instructions for getting on INDEX-L. When > reviewing the confirmation message I got when I subscribed, I found this > warning: > > IMPORTANT: This list is confidential. You should not publicly > mention its > existence, or forward copies of information you have obtained from it to > third > parties. Please note that the "GIVE" command is automatically disabled > for all > archive files. > > It appears in the section describing the INDEX-L archives. Does it apply > just to the archives? Can I "advertise" INDEX-L in my workshop? > > Dick Dick, I don't know the meaning of the confidentiality clause, but it appears in the welcome message of at least one other list I belong to--exact same wording and in the archives section. Could be a standard clause for certain listservs. Bonny McLaughlin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:29:13 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Stewart Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.IAA28755@mail.abts.net> Susan, As a health and fitness person that is neither really young or as fit as I should be, I have paid a lot of attention to how my computer is set up. I have had back and neck problems and am determined that I can prevent a lot of problems by how I conduct routine and repetitive activities. I have my monitor set so that if you divide the screen into thirds, the line between the middle-third and top one-third of the screen is exactly at eye level. My keyboard is level with my elbows so that when I am keyboarding, I create a 90 degree angle at my elbows and my hands rest comfortably on the keyboard. ALL text that I use as reference and for keying lay on an angle between my keyboard and the monitor. I look down to see my copy and up to see the monitor. I do no have to hold my head at any side-to-side angle. The copy stand sits between my montior and keyboard and is angled like the preacher's pulpit! It is about a 30 degree angle. Therefore, the top of my text sits just below the screen of my monitor and the bottom of my text sits just above my keyboard all in the same line of sight. My keyboard is recessed and slides under my desk when not in use. The mouse pad slides out from the side of my keyboard and is at the same heigth. I found that when the mouse was up higher, it caused a lot of shoulder pain. It is down low and right next the the lower right corner of my keyboard and even sits a little lower than the keyboard. I am so comfortable now, like I have never been! I am currently working at a large fiber optic company, and now have the same configuration in my office where I do technical writing. It sure makes a difference when you are comfortable and doing it in a healthy manner. Also, I do not use a big bulky chair with arm rests. They get in the way of sitting at the right distance to my keyboard. Good luck! DMS "Language is the dress of Thought." Stewart Indexing Service dmstewart@abts.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:47:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Margaret L. FalerSweany" Subject: Re: Ergonomics/Touch-Glide Pads I have the "Wave" keyboard with Touch Pad. Since getting it, I wouldn't use anything else! I hated the mouse and found it causing considerable phyical pain. Also, it used far too much room on my desk. I then tried the track ball and while it was better than a mouse, it didn't give me the fine touch I wanted. With my Touch Pad feature and the ergonomically split board, I enter text almost as fast as I can on a correcting selectric (the dream keyboard of all time!) and definitely more quickly than when I relied on a mouse. I'm also using the keyboard commands much more often and realized I don't need the mouse-I can move more accurately using keyboard commands in most instances. (The only time the mouse seemed feasible was when cutting/pasting/deleting large chuncks of text.) More important, however, is making sure the keyboard and mouse/touch pad are at the correct hight for your body build. Most desk designers seem to assume all humans are 6 foot or higher. I've had a "shelf" created that drops my keyboard and terminal down to a 24" level where I'm not stretching up and out. This has considerably reduced the strain in my arms and shoulders. My neck almost never hurts any more. Good luck on getting better. Margaret FalerSweany mfsweany@mtu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:48:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Arizona Chapter of ASI - Meeting 6/14 The Arizona Chapter of ASI will be meeting on Saturday, June 14th, at noon at the News Cafe, 44th Street and Camelback Road (NW corner), Phoenix. An informal program of discussion of the Annual Conference and workshops attended by members this spring will be held. Also on the agenda is a chapter meeting and installation of new officers. A summer meeting is planned at a private home in Phoenix on July 19th, and a luncheon and speaker on a topic of interest to technical writers as well as indexers will take place on September 13th in Casa Grande. Contact 76400.3351@compuserve.com (Nan Badgett) or jperlman@aol.com (Janet Perlman) for further info. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:18:28 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: INDEX-L confidential? "IMPORTANT: This list is confidential." etc. I too have read this, and assumed it was just a piece of nonsense. Ignore it. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 05:34:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Ergonomics-again & 1 Ergonomic Question (longist) An ergonomic comment and a question: As a contractor who catalogs sizeable collections of books, I'm faced with these same issues as well. I was running in to a problem with my hands last year, after cataloging a collection of about 3000 architectural documents. It was becoming painful to hold a pencil or to write without a great deal of pain in my right hand. It turns out that that problem was originally caused because I fell off a bicycle about 5 years ago and never paid much attention to physical therapy. The old injury never seemed to be a problem until this project which involved a huge amount of intensive data entry. My physical therapist suggested vitamin B6 because part of the problem resulted from not eating properly (lack of green vegetables, which I've never liked!) Part of the problem, however, was created by doing intensive data entry in an inappropriate setting. As you may remember, I'm currently cataloging a different collection of books this spring, so am in the same type of situation. I'm finding that it helps to take a long walk in the evening, in addition to taking vitamin B6 and doing some exercises with my hands. Swimming is also supposed to be a good exercise for this as well, but I think a long walk at the end of the day really makes a difference. The question is this: As a contactor, I've been told that I have to supply my own ergonomic equipment to ease the data entry stress. Do you have any suggestions for relieving stress without spending a huge amoutn of money. I have the ergonomic keyboard and the logitech mouse at home, but purchasing those same items for the part-time job would cost about $150.00. If making these purchases is the only way to relieve the stress on my hands, I will. But I thought it was worth asking for suggestions for things that could be done that would not cost a lot of money. BTW, I think ergonomics is an issue we should all be concerned with, since it effects our livelihood. If we don't pay attention to it now, others will be in the same situation as Susan. Thanks for perservering in reading this. It's nice to know that there are empathetic souls at the other end of this "virtual water cooler". Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:22:16 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Ergonomics: When a contractor is told she must buy her own special equipment . . . Hello: It might be that your employer is reluctant to buy this equipment for you because that is outside of the normal contrator-client relationship which thwey want to preserve, carefully. Try to discuss this with them, the legal and accounting aspects of this, perhaps they will then find a graceful and safe way to finance this - even with a generous mid-year bonus or such. David ------ Willa MacAllen wrote: > > An ergonomic comment and a question: > > As a contractor who catalogs sizeable collections of books, I'm faced > with these same issues as well. I was running in to a problem with my > hands last year, after cataloging a collection of about 3000 > architectural documents. It was becoming painful to hold a pencil > or to write without a great deal of pain in my right hand. > > It turns out that that problem was originally caused because I fell off a > bicycle about 5 years ago and never paid much attention to physical > therapy. The old injury never seemed to be a problem until this project > which involved a huge amount of intensive data entry. > > My physical therapist suggested vitamin B6 because part of the problem > resulted from not eating properly (lack of green vegetables, which I've > never liked!) Part of the problem, however, was created by doing > intensive data entry in an inappropriate setting. > > As you may remember, I'm currently cataloging a different collection of > books this spring, so am in the same type of situation. I'm finding that > it helps to take a long walk in the evening, in addition to taking > vitamin B6 and doing some exercises with my hands. Swimming is also > supposed to be a good exercise for this as well, but I think a long walk > at the end of the day really makes a difference. > > The question is this: As a contactor, I've been told that I have to > supply my own ergonomic equipment to ease the data entry stress. Do you > have any suggestions for relieving stress without spending a huge amoutn > of money. I have the ergonomic keyboard and the logitech mouse at home, > but purchasing those same items for the part-time job would cost about > $150.00. > > If making these purchases is the only way to relieve the stress on my > hands, I will. But I thought it was worth asking for suggestions for > things that could be done that would not cost a lot of money. > > BTW, I think ergonomics is an issue we should all be concerned with, > since it effects our livelihood. If we don't pay attention to it now, > others will be in the same situation as Susan. > > Thanks for perservering in reading this. It's nice to know that there > are empathetic souls at the other end of this "virtual water cooler". > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > Librarian/Technical Writer > Boston > macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Harris Subject: Clippings file index List members, I am currently indexing our library's clippings file using Inmagic, a textbase management software program. The file consists mainly of newspapers articles, some pamphlets, and brief local historys. Does anyone know of any libraries or historical societys who have made a searchable index such as this one available on the Internet? There is not much out there for me to refer to as a guide. This index will be available in both print and electronic format, so there is much to consider. Any suggestions? Thanks, Mary Harris Huntington Memorial Library Oneonta, New York on_mary@4cty.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Clippings file index Can you pls show us the URL for the one on the Internet? Cheers. DRA Mary Harris wrote: > > List members, > > I am currently indexing our library's clippings file using Inmagic, a textbase > management software program. The file consists mainly of newspapers articles, > some pamphlets, and brief local historys. > > Does anyone know of any libraries or historical societys who have made a > searchable index such as this one available on the Internet? There is not much > out there for me to refer to as a guide. This index will be available in both > print and electronic format, so there is much to consider. > > Any suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Mary Harris > Huntington Memorial Library > Oneonta, New York > > on_mary@4cty.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:54:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: TOOLS: ZIP drive help My Iomega Zip drive (external) appears to have stopped working. I use it nearly exclusively for backup. Every disk I try sticks in the drive and I can unstick them. But the drive is not reading or being read by my PC system. Earlier today, I pulled the plug because I was leaving and there was a possibility of thunderstorms. Now that I have problems, I remember that i'm supposed to turn the Zip drive off first. I may have fried it. Service folks claim that the drive is probably kapoot and I should replace. I realize most industry is more disposable than I belive is moral, but wanted to check with the technically knowledgeable. Should I continue to see if the thing can be repaired or should I bite the $150 bullet and get a new one? TIA, Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:42:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: TOOLS: ZIP drive help Pam, I would definitely try to get it fixed first. Many manufacturers have a fixed price for labor no matter what is wrong. Some even have a fixed price for repairs no matter what parts are needed or how much labor. Call the manufacturer of your zip drive first before assuming it is not repairable. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- > My Iomega Zip drive (external) appears to have stopped working. I use it > nearly exclusively for backup. Every disk I try sticks in the drive and I > can unstick them. But the drive is not reading or being read by my PC system. > > Earlier today, I pulled the plug because I was leaving and there was a > possibility of thunderstorms. Now that I have problems, I remember that i'm > supposed to turn the Zip drive off first. I may have fried it. > > Service folks claim that the drive is probably kapoot and I should replace. > I realize most industry is more disposable than I belive is moral, but > wanted to check with the technically knowledgeable. Should I continue to see > if the thing can be repaired or should I bite the $150 bullet and get a new one? > > TIA, > > > Pam Rider ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:56:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Zip drive Pam, Can't speak to zip drives, but my printer at home went kaput so we decided to try to get it fixed. It cost $40 or $50 just to be told what was wrong and what needed to be done to it to get it running again. (I'm not complaining -- they told us up front that there was a cost for diagnostics.) In our case, since a printer is a major purchase, it was worth the $50 to see if we could save some bucks in the long run. We didn't, and wound up buying a new printer. With a $150 drive, if you're paying $50 for diagnostics, that's a third of the cost. If you find you need a $10 part, cool. If not, you may kick yourself for not just going out and buying a new one. You never know, but I thought I'd relay my recent experience. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: TOOLS: ZIP drive help In-Reply-To: <199706132003.NAA10358@mx2.u.washington.edu> Depends on whether or not it's still under warrenty. I've never had any problem with my Zip drive; but my husband's Jaz drive on his Mac went belly up about 2 months after he got it. After waiting hours on hold to get to Iomega (this was during the rebate claim madness) he got authorization to return it for repair; and the whole thing was replaced free of charge. No problem since then. However, if it's not under warrenty, I would get a FIRM repair estimate before authorizing any work. A while back we paid $200 to get the CD player in my daughter's boom box fixed; later discovered we could have replaced the whole thing with a comparable model for $150. As you said, we're in a throw-away society! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > > Service folks claim that the drive is probably kapoot and I should replace. > I realize most industry is more disposable than I belive is moral, but > wanted to check with the technically knowledgeable. Should I continue to see > if the thing can be repaired or should I bite the $150 bullet and get a new one? > > TIA, > > > Pam Rider > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:06:38 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Fictional characters and also Viet Namese names Oh, good. I just did one on an American playwright that had tons of his characters which I was sure were eminently indexable, and I did it the way Do Mi did. I was afraid to say so in case it was wrong. I'm not sure how I would have handled it if there were characters from other peoples' plays or works, though. Or characters with the same name but different authors. This playwright used mostly just first names, and often used the same name in different works. I could think of no other way to do it in this case. I was just reading an article about Dith Pran and Haing Ngor (think The Killing Fields) and there was note stating "In the Asian manner, Dith uses his family name first, Haing Ngor had adopted the Western style of puting his given name first." How are we to know these subleties? >When I index literary criticism, and characters are discussed (which is >happening a lot less in the lit crit I run into these days, BTW) I always >index them followed by the work they appear in in parentheses: Heep, Uriah >(^David Copperfield^). > >Do Mi Stauber Rachel Rice Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, consulting ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:06:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Virus checkers Hello all--It appears that Dick Evans has encountered one of the dreaded Macro viruses. A friend of mine was also struck a few months ago when all of her window options greyed out when trying to Save something. Her husband located a specific fix for Word which worked beutifully; in fact, it remains as a "watchdog" after being installed. As I recall, he downloaded the files -- one for PC and one for Mac -- from the great source Microsoft itself. Cheers, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:25:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: TOOLS: ZIP drive help My drive is well past warranty. I have called all day--the advice to get it fixed is coals to Newcastle for me. Sadly, I find no large-shop or independent contractor willing to check it out. I am told by friends that the company does not repair the drive. I have yet to get through the Iomega lines to verify that. But, the drive is now $149 and a number of sources say that's considered a disposable price. This is very discouraging to me. I believe such bad values is a sign of internal rot. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:43:31 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: TOOLS: ZIP drive help Pam, Don't buy a zip drive for your _backups_. Buy a Ditto drive by Iomega. Even if the zip one day starts working again! Ditto drives cost about 100 for the internal type or 150 for the external type, easily moveable. (With the rebate) They backup a huge 2 gigabytes on a tape, yes they are slow, but when you need more than one zip drive, that will be slow too changing media. My zip drive is fine but it is a scsi drive and won't fit "all" PCs like my parallel Ditto drive will. No i don't work for Iomega or anybody, for that matter! David Pam Rider wrote: > > My Iomega Zip drive (external) appears to have stopped working. I use it > nearly exclusively for backup. Every disk I try sticks in the drive and I > can unstick them. But the drive is not reading or being read by my PC system. > > Earlier today, I pulled the plug because I was leaving and there was a > possibility of thunderstorms. Now that I have problems, I remember that i'm > supposed to turn the Zip drive off first. I may have fried it. > > Service folks claim that the drive is probably kapoot and I should replace. > I realize most industry is more disposable than I belive is moral, but > wanted to check with the technically knowledgeable. Should I continue to see > if the thing can be repaired or should I bite the $150 bullet and get a new one? > > TIA, > > Pam Rider > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:50:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Zip drive In-Reply-To: <199706132105.OAA02989@mx5.u.washington.edu> The moral of the story is to buy a service contract (from a reputable company, not American Express, see below) unless you can fix things yourself. Alas, it is more expensive than the price of new equipment in most cases to have someone else fix things. What I had go down too soon was a laser printer. It was a Packard Bell (the bat guano special) and theoretically convered by a service contract from American Express, from whom I purchased it and the service contract. Alas, when push came to shove, the parts were unavailable and no one in my area (Seattle) could fix it. Thus I had to scap a 2 year old printer that cost me a lot. But it comes with the turf. Then there is software that won't quite work with the operating system it is supposed to work with.. and drivers that won't drive... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 16:52:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Virus checkers In-Reply-To: <199706132252.PAA10899@mx5.u.washington.edu> Yes, MS has a free anti-macro virus fix and Word97 has it built it. I remember well the day that Gates got one (a virus that is) in his computer and shazaam, let there be a fix..., within about two weeks as I remember. Now if they fixed the bugs in their software like that .... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:56:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: INDEX-L confidential? Dick, It could be that the membership of the list is no longer obtainable using a REVEAL (I think) command to protect us from spammers? Some lists have gone this route. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 19:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Embedded Indexes and Short Ranges In a message dated 97-06-13 00:47:21 EDT, Seth wrote: > Maxine, > > What you are talking about -- indexing short ranges using embedded > indexing tools -- affects anyone who embeds index tags or markers > and is not a problem unique to Microsoft Word. (The issue of too > many bookmarks is, however.) Hi Seth, Maybe I've just been lucky, but I haven't encountered a limit for markers in FrameMaker. I'm sure there's some theoretical limit where the book and the number of index markers it contains exceeds your system's ability to compile the index, but I haven't heard of a discrete limit. Being that FrameMaker defines page ranges by using startrange and endrange markers, there shouldn't be a limit to page ranges except for the theoretical limit to the number of markers. > > Somewhere, someplace, I came across a rule that explained it was > a stylistic choice whether or not to index ranges that extended only > two pages. The argument against two-page ranges is that a reader > knows to continue reading until there is no further information; > he or she is not simply going to stop because the page ends. In > addition, since ideas very often do cross the page breaks, including > two-page ranges will quickly clutter up almost any index. (If you > have two separate references that are only one page apart, use a comma.) A reader doesn't always know that the information continues onto the next page. Just last night, I came to what seemed to be the end of a topic at the bottom of a page. It sounded like the end of the author's thought. There were also enough spaces at the end of the sentence to indicate that it was the end of the paragraph. However, I turned the page because I was reading it as an indexer rather than as a reader--lo and behold, to find another paragraph on the same subject. As an average reader, given those visual cues, etc. I would have thought that the discussion ended on the first page and wouldn't have necessarily turned the page unless the index had indicated that it continued onto the second page. Just can't trust the indexer, I see. ;-D I never thought of two-page ranges as "cluttering" an index and can only see it doing so when the number of unanalyzed locators in an entry is higher than three, IMHO. (Three unanalyzed locators is my usual limit unless I'm tight for space in an index.) I guess I'm a proponent of the idea of indexing it "as it is", so to speak. If it goes for two pages, then I indicate that it's two pages long. > On the other hand, when information spans over several pages (say, > three or more), it is a good idea to identify the reference to the > reader as "a large smattering of information" -- and thus the range > communicates something more than just the start and end points of > the reference. It communicates a purposeful length. I have to thank you for making me think about this more fully than I have in the past. Your remark about a "purposeful length" is very compelling. I do agree that many times it's quite obvious to the reader that a discussion continues on to a second page and will perhaps forgo creating page ranges for those instances--especially in labor-intensive embedded indexes. I will definitely reconsider the issue of automatically creating two-page ranges even when a page break in the middle of a sentence makes it obvious to the reader that the discussion continues onto another page. However, I still have to think about the subtle cue a page range may give a reader looking for the meatiest or lengthiest discussion of a topic given several unanalyzed locators to chose from for the same entry (e.g., two single locators and a range of two pages vs. three single locators). It could be argued that the "cue" is relatively meaningless when only two pages are involved, even without widow/orphan control. > > When it comes to embedded indexing, this "rule" comes in *very* handy. > So when I ask myself, "How long does the reference have to be before > I consider it a range?," I use the following rule of thumb: If the > information could at some point run across three separate page numbers, > then it's a range. Otherwise, consider a single-page reference. This is a handy rule of thumb. Thank you. > > I should add as a postscript that in some cases, when you are using > embedded tags, you may even run into a problem with art placement. > I've often considered two paragraphs of information, with one paragraph > on each of two pages, only to discover that three page-long tables > were going to be inserted between them. This dilemma, I fear, is simply > a procedural downfall of indexing before the book is finished. This is more of a problem with MS Word's bookmarks (which could "break") than with FrameMaker's startrange and endrange markers. However it does wreck havoc with the rule of thumb mentioned above for whether to create short ranges when embedding. These are reasons why I try to persuade clients wanting indexes embedded in Word to wait until the book is ported into FrameMaker (if that is the next step) or let me create the index as a standalone document after the pagination has been finally set even if that reduces the time available for indexing. Surprisingly, I've been successful in a gratifying number of cases. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:10:12 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Service contracts and avoiding unnecessary expense and repairs. Greetings, all: P. Buell wrote: > > The moral of the story is to buy a service contract (from a reputable > company, not American Express, see below) unless you can fix things > yourself. Across the board, I'd guess, service contracts are one of the most profitable lines of business one can be in now. This comes second hand from a friend with connections in that business - folks who brag about their profits and wealth. Look at it this way, too. Eventually we own several big pieces of equipment. It might all be stolen at once or burn up in a fire or drown in a flood all at once, but not much chance that it will all be _breaking down_ in the same year. But we are paying separate premiums for each piece with no quantity discount. Better to take that money instead and put it into a mutual fund or similar. And try to learn to fix things yourself, within reason. I'd also heed the advice from somebody around here who advised against turning CPU on their side etc. when they weren't made or formatted for use in that orientation. I've heard that for years. I'll bet there are a number of things we can do to take better care of our machines. When was the last time you carefully opened the cover to check all of the ventilation fans in your unit? One day I found that 2 out of three fans had stopped working . . . Glad I had more than just oe installed. I'd hate to rub salt into an old wound, Paul. But I've never been warned away from any manufatcurer the way I've been warned away from Packard Bell. It pays to network (as we are doing here) and enjoy the advice from our well-meaning friends. My two cents. > Alas, it is more expensive than the price of new equipment in > most cases to have someone else fix things. What I had go down too > soon > was a laser printer. It was a Packard Bell (the bat guano special) and > theoretically convered by a service contract from American Express, from > whom I purchased it and the service contract. Alas, when push came to > shove, the parts were unavailable and no one in my area (Seattle) > could > fix it. Thus I had to scrap a 2 year old printer that cost me a lot. Here, I suppose the service contract pays ONLY for repairs so if you decide to ditch the machine early, unexpectedly, for whatever reason, well, there is no benefit. That's why I like to self-insure as much as possible. > But it > comes with the turf. Then there is software that won't quite work with > the operating system it is supposed to work with.. and drivers that won't > drive... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:52:19 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Service Contracts Although I agree that service contracts can sometimes be worthless (just like insurance policies), they can also occasionally payoff in a big way. We had one of those Brother multifunction printer/copier/fax/scan machines that we bought from a large computer chain store. When it broke down, we took it in and had it repaired. The second time it broke down (this was all in a period of 12-18 months), they sent it off to be repaired but were told that it would cost more to repair than it was worth. We were offered another Brother multifunction machine as a replacement, but we didn't want another one of those. We ended up with a new Hewlett-Packard color copier/printer (Copyjet), all for the price of the original service contract. Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:54:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Service contracts and avoiding unnecessary expense and repairs. In-Reply-To: <199706140311.UAA27445@mx5.u.washington.edu> Suffice it to say, my present computer is not a Packard Bell. If you are going to shell out for a computer, or anything else, it is worth while getting a reliable one. There are reasons for the price differentials, not just profiteering on the part of manufactuers. Re: service contracts. I had to scrap the machine because my service contract was worthless. It was up to me to find someone to fix my printer. I never did and got sick of trying to deal with the company that handled the service contract business for Amercian Express so, I bought a HP-5, with which I remain delighted. But there are good service companies out there. One can shop around. The advice to put the money into a mutual fund is, however well taken. My solution to all this has been to build and maintain my own equipment, to the greatest degree possible, to inform myself, and, when I buy things, to buy from local outlets who know me and where I can go and complain. While there are honest mail order outlets there are the dishonest ones too (e.g., one named after an animal, felidae). I want to deal with people I can swear at when things go wrong and threaten with the loss of thousands upon thousands of dollars of business from my computer-literate extended family and friends. But then, back to the nontechnical side of indexing... Paul D. Buell PS: I second the suggestion of a tape drive for backup. Zips don't have the capacity anyhow. But if it is just files and not the whole system you want to back up, read-write CD-ROMs are getting very, very cheap. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:22:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Zip drive problems Hi, I would like to recommend that Pam try adding a second hard drive to her computer. Hard drives are dirt cheap nowadays. Cheaper per megabyte than the Zip drives are and are MUCH easier to work with than tape drives. I have a second hard drive with which I use MS Plus! scheduling software to backup all of my data files every day at 5PM. The process takes about 30 seconds and I never have to worry about losing more than one days work. Of course I could have it backed up more frequently if I want to. Because the drive is physically separate from the original drive I don't have to worry that if the main drive goes bad that what I have backed up will be lost also. And restoring files is simply a matter of using the copy command or a couple of mouse clicks. The only thing lost is portability. The drive can't be removed. However, I have seen devices that allow you to plug a 3.5" hard drive into a 5.25" slot. Sorry, I can't remember where. Anyway, I use a tape backup once a month so that I can store the tape in a completely different location (in case of fire, etc.). These days the total cost of a 2 gig hard drive and a tape backup to match will probably amount to between $400 and $500 dollars. I use Western Digital hard drives which I have found to be quite, fast, reliable and have a three year "manufacturers warranty". Thank goodness I have never had a hard drive fail on me, but I have accidentally erased files from time to time and thanked God that I had the backup. Hope all of the info you have been getting from the list is helping Pam. Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:05:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Bergin Subject: Indexing Law Books I am a paralegal and aspiring indexer, surfing the net to evaluate prospects for freelance indexing in humanities/law. My education is in literature and political science. Hope to get some feedback about law as a specialty area of indexing. How do you get into it? Wonder if I can capitalize on my legal background to any appreciable extent? Does anyone specialize in indexing, copyediting and proofreading of legal books? How about law as a technical writing field? Is the USDA course the best indexing training? Carolyn Bergin cbergin@koyote.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:23:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Spell checkers Does anyone know whether a spell checker for botanical names exists? I'd be interested in hearing about any specialized spell checkers you all use. Thanks! Therese Shere ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:47:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Spell checkers Hi, Therese, I use the medical spellchecker available from CINDEX. At 01:23 PM 6/14/97 -0400, TShere7566@AOL.COM wrote: >Does anyone know whether a spell checker for botanical names exists? I'd be >interested in hearing about any specialized spell checkers you all use. > >Thanks! >Therese Shere > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:00:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: New reference book I don't know if any of you have seen this new book, but I thought I'd bring it to your. It is _The Order of Things: How Everything in the World is Organized into Hierarchies, Structures & Pecking Orders_ by Barbara Ann Kipfer, New York: Random House, 1997. The price is $30; $42 Canada. It's a nifty resource that provides hierarchical lists of things rarely found (or hard to find) in that format in dictionaries or encyclopedias. The book is divided into earth sciences, life sciences, physical sciences, technology, mathematics & measurement, religion, history, society & social institutions, business & economics, the arts, domestic life, sports & recreation, and general knowledge and philosophy. In each of those areas it includes structures, hierarchies, and lists such as earth layers with description of composition, rock classes, description of the digestive sequence, chemical groups in the periodic table, terms for periods of time, historical hierarch of Orthodox Churches, historical lists of monarchs/prime ministers for various countries, Nobel Prize categories, freemasonry hierarchy, portraits on U.S. currency, motion picture genres, tools by type, contents of the I Ching, and Wittgenstein's method for overcoming puzzlement. It also has what seems to be a well constructed and useful index. I think it would be a great help not only for the information per se, but also for finding synonyms or subject headings in a wide variety of topics. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:13:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Embedded Indexing - Thanks ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC78DE.0B37A440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I want to thank everyone in the group that responded to my questions = about embedded indexing in Word97. As a newbie, I appreciate all the = careful thought that went into the comments. I just got the contract to = index that book - my first index (yipee!) - and I feel more confortable = doing the embedded indexing after reading all of your comments. Thanks = again!=20 I have been informed that my previous two posts to INDEX-L have had = binary file garbage following my message (apologies to the group for = that). Both of my posts have been text only, so I don't understand = where the binary file garbage came from. I use Microsoft Exchange (with = Windows95) for my e-mail. Please let me know if it happens again and = I'd also appreciate any suggestions anyone may have on how to get rid of = it. Maxine M. 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BTW, for those who are interested in ordering this book and can't easily get it locally, the book is available for $21.00 from Amazon.com. At 03:00 PM 6/14/97 -0400, Locatelli@AOL.COM wrote: >I don't know if any of you have seen this new book, but I thought I'd bring >it to your. It is _The Order of Things: How Everything in the World is >Organized into Hierarchies, Structures & Pecking Orders_ by Barbara Ann >Kipfer, New York: Random House, 1997. The price is $30; $42 Canada. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ray Schwartz Subject: ALA Program Announcement - URIs, Metadata and the Dublin Core ALA ANNUAL CONFERENCE PROGRAM FROM CATALOG TO GATEWAY: URIs, METADATA AND THE DUBLIN CORE. Sponsored by ALCTS Catalog Form and Function Committee RUSA/MOPSS Catalog Use Committee LITA Committee on Technical Standards for Library Automation Sunday, June 29, 1997 9:30am to 12:30pm Sheraton Palace Hotel, Gold Ballroom, 2 New Montgomery St., San Francisco Decisions are being made that will influence the functioning of networked bibliographic access for decades. It is crucial for the library community to be knowledgeable and active in the development of the standards and specifications. The program's objectives are to give participants an understanding of Uniform Resource Identifiers, Metadata, the Dublin Core, and the implications for bibliographic access; and to give the library community an understanding of the importance of participating in their development. Intended Audience: Librarians and other information professionals concerned with the bibliographic control of networked resources. Speakers: Clifford Lynch, Director of Library Automation, University of California, Office of the President. Where do we stand on Uniform Resource Identifiers? Stuart Weibel, Senior Research Scientist, OCLC Office of Research. The Metadata Workshop series, metadata and the Dublin Core/Warwick Framework, and the pilot projects that have evolved from the workshops. Rebecca Guenther, Senior MARC Standards Specialist, Network Development and MARC Standards Office, Library of Congress Metadata, MARC and the Dublin Core Michael Mealling, Software Engineer, Network Solutions, and Internet Engineering Task Force member Uniform Resource Names and Uniform Resource Characteristics: Representation, Operation, and Status Program Chair: Ray Schwartz, John Cotton Dana Library, Rutgers University, Newark, New Jersey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Spell Checkers Spelling Checkers. I have a spelling checker It came with my PC. It plane lee marks four my revue Miss steaks aye can knot see. Eye ran this poem threw it. Your sure real glad two no. Its very polished in its weigh, My checker tolled me sew. A checker is a blessing. It freeze yew lodes of thyme. It helps me right awl stiles two reed, And aides me when aye rime. Each frays comes posed up on my screen Eye trussed too bee a joule. The checker pours o'er every word To cheque sum spelling rule. Bee fore a veiling checkers Hour spelling mite decline, And if we're laks oar have a laps, We wood bee maid too wine. Butt now bee cause my spelling Is checked with such grate flare, There are know faults with in my cite, Of nun eye am a wear. Now spelling does not phase me, It does knot bring a tier. My pay purrs awl due glad den With wrapped words fare as hear. To rite with care is quite a feet Of witch won should be proud, And wee mussed dew the best wee can, Sew flaws are knot aloud. Sow ewe can sea why aye dew prays Such soft wear four pea seas, And why eye brake in two averse Buy righting want too please. Author Unknown