From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:53:33.35 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705B" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:38 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9705B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:32:51 ECT Reply-To: keyword@ozemail.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Page Locator Format for Continuous vs. Noncontinuous Discussions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Yesterday I posted a message about the British national standard's ruling this topic. Janet Shuter of the UK, who largely wrote the new international standard, sent me this message: The answer is ISO 999 follows BS3700 here. After that it departs from the BS by suggesting you put range locators in full e.g. 2334-2336 not 2334-6, which one committee member convinced us was more desirable as a principle, even though I think most people would depart from it. I hope people will buy & read the ISO but it is horribly expensive: about =A345 here. --=20 Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills NSW 2010, Australia Phone: +61 2 9331 7764 * Fax: +61 2 9331 7785 * Email: keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:33:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: asi chapter newsletters ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Cheers, everyone. Here's a real note mixed in with all these messages from Administrator. 8-) ... I'm currently coordinating the newsletter for the Pacific Northwest Chapter of ASI. We've got our first issue ready to go, but I want to ask other chapters about their newsletters. . How often do you publish your newsletter? . How many do you distribute? . Do you send copies to regional publishers? Every issue, or just once a year, or by subscription only? . Can non-ASI members subscribe to your newsletter? If so, what is the cost of a subscription? . How long are your newsletters (on the average)? . On the average, what does your newsletter cost to print & mail? . How do you handle the coordination/editing? Is the coordinator also the managing editor? Do you have several editors to which you assign articles for editing? Do you send the entire issue to all editors for editing? . Do you send out newsletters _with_ meeting announcements, or separate from them? . Do you have any regular columns that discuss questions about indexing or indexing tips (geared towards newbies or editors)? . Do you have regular biographical columns (like "Meet a Member")? . Do you include lists of books indexed by your members? Please respond to me personally & I'll summarize to the list. Thanks in advance. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:34:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason for No Index In-Reply-To: <199705071346.GAA12181@mx3.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dare we point out lost library sales in this context?? I can't speak for public libraries; but it's rare that a book without an index ends up on our (academic medical library) shelves. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Wed, 7 May 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > At 09:34 AM 5/7/97 -0400, you wrote: > >I'll see that *cherry-picking* and raise you a *pig in a poke.* > > > >I'd ask the publisher how often he buys a book when it is unclear if it > >addresses the subject of interest. I use indexes a great deal when I choose > >books to confirm that I'm buying what I need. > > > >Blythe > > > My habits (predating indexing 15 years ago) match Blythe's. I fear the > publisher friend betrays a potential cheap streak by analyzing a process > used to select a book as speedreading an entire book while shopping. > > If a book has no index, I assume the material is too superficial for me to > ever want to go back and find it. > Pam Rider > > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@powergrid.electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:37:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: mail failure All, I think I have corrected the mail failure problem...by deleting the problem address from the subscriber list. The mail failure set up a loop that caused the index-l disc space to fill. I have cleared things up so all systems are go. However, I will moderate the list for the rest of the day so that I can intercept residual problems. Also those of you who sent messages inquiring about the mail-failure problem will not see your messages posted. Thanks for your patience. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:48:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Crank calls ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 10:55 AM 5/7/97 -0400, Seth A. Maislin wrote: >I am not certain it has come up yet (I've only been skimming these postings, >to be honest), but features like *69 (automatic callback) cost money. >I also learned that the code to trace nuisance calls also costs money! Seth, we're not paying anything extra on our phone bill (as a regular monthly fee) for the *69 service, but we may well have paid a few cents each time we used it. I could check the phone bill and be certain. Maybe it's like calling Information--you now pay something like 25 cents per call after a small number of "freebies." I do know that until they redesign how *69 works in my area, I won't be using it again. The LAST thing I want to do is have a direct phone confrontation with a crank caller, or reconnect with a telemarketing person I was avoiding to begin with. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 13:48:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Crank calls ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 08:23 AM 5/7/97 -0600, Noeline Bridge wrote: >Sonsie wrote that pressing star 69 (*69) automatically dials the number. >This isn't so where I live, in Edmonton, Canada. The operator gives you the >option of calling that number by pressing 1, but this is after she has >stated the number twice. This is how I would =hope= the system works, but unfortunately we don't get live operators much at all in CA, and certainly not under these circumstances. The two times we tried using *69, it proceeded to dial the number directly and the phone at the other end began to ring almost immediately. It was somewhat unnerving, as we hadn't wanted to talk to anybody, just find out who had called. And of course, you still don't know that until somebody answers the phone and, if you are lucky, says "XYZ auto repair" or some such thing--or the voice is personally recognizable. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:56:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Crank calls In my area (Nynex, soon to become Bell Atlantic, for Arlington, MA, near Boston), Call Return is $.50 per call and Call Trace is $3.25 per call. There is no charge for having either facility available if it is not used. Nynex requires two traces and a local police report for a harassing call before they will release a traced number. And Call Return dials automatically, without any operator intervention. Joel Sonsie wrote [excerpted]: > Seth, we're not paying anything extra on our phone bill (as a regular > monthly fee) for the *69 service, but we may well have paid a few cents each > time we used it. I could check the phone bill and be certain. Maybe it's > like calling Information--you now pay something like 25 cents per call after > a small number of "freebies." > > I do know that until they redesign how *69 works in my area, I won't be > using it again. The LAST thing I want to do is have a direct phone > confrontation with a crank caller, or reconnect with a telemarketing person > I was avoiding to begin with. > > =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 14:03:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: :-) mail failure Thank-YOU for being there to take care of it. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 09:55:14 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes In-Reply-To: <199705081537.IAA13534@darkwing.uoregon.edu> Regarding libraries refusing to accept books without indexes: Do we have any objective evidence of this? Has a survey been done anywhere and are there numbers available? Does acceptance or not depend upon the library's audience, and have the audiences been surveyed and defined? And would information like this be useful in marketing letters. ********************************* Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu 541-484-1180 Indexing interests include philosophy, cultural and physical anthropology, linguistics, religions, women's studies, college textbooks, and current culture. ********************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 19:53:38 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes Martha Osgood wrote: > > Regarding libraries refusing to accept books without indexes: > > Do we have any objective evidence of this? Has a survey been done anywhere > and are there numbers available? Does acceptance or not depend upon the > library's audience, and have the audiences been surveyed and defined? > > And would information like this be useful in marketing letters. > >Martha, I think you have a great idea. If it hasn't been done I would be willing to work with someone in developing a questionnaire and database for answering your question. If each person on the list would go to 3-5 libraries in their area and get the answers to the questionnaire I would be glad to collate and report the findings. I think your point of using it as a marketing tool is an excellent one. At the same time we could come up with information on what the libraries budget toward non-fiction or technical books so that we would have some dollar values to attach to these markets. All companies listen to the bottom line or they don't stay in business. We could publish the results for ASI members and/or on the web in return for samples taken. Let me know what you think. Ginny McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes In a message dated 97-05-08 19:07:41 EDT, you write: << Regarding libraries refusing to accept books without indexes: Do we have any objective evidence of this? Has a survey been done anywhere and are there numbers available? >> I work at a USC-affiliated hospital. Our librarian says this is her policy. So here is the first entry for an informal survey. I am looking forward to seeing other comments. E. Micki Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:01:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Crank calls From Christine Headley In the UK you can hire a phone (for about ten dollars/six pounds a quarter, if I remember correctly) which automatically gives callers' numbers if their exchange is up to it (most now are) and if they haven't excluded it. Double glazing companies tend to exclude and so did my local council. Many helplines are committed to *not* hiring the phones. You can also put in your mum, spouse's office etc and use it for recognition and dialling. It stores 15 favourite numbers and retains 30 calls, so you can see if there is a pattern of the same number calling. You can get the service without the special phone by dialling 1471, which gives you the number of the last caller (unless they have excluded it) and gives the option of dialling it straight away. I find it hard to believe that British Telecom is ahead of the USA in this. I believe the smaller providers also have the service - it is certainly possible to recognise calls from cable phone services. We also had a voice-mail service provided by BT which could take two messages while we were talking to a third person. In Hong Kong our phone recognises numbers, but a nearby publisher comes up as 'out of area' and there is no line for alphabetical input. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 22:14:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Eileen Gatti Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason for No Index >Thought you all might be interested to know that a publisher who is a >social acquaintance gave the following reason as to why the company had as >yet to index any of their books: > >"So far we haven't indexed anything. Probably sheer laziness, but >I *do* see people pick up books in the store, check the index, and >cherry-pick the sections they want. Hell, I do it myself :/ ." > >It's the old "hide the information so they have to buy the book" excuse. > >--Victoria > >vbaker@mcn.org > You might want to advise this publisher that some of us use the quality of the index as a criterion in deciding which book to buy. --Eileen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 20:40:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mlymack Subject: Re: Crank calls Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > >From Christine Headley > > In the UK you can hire a phone (for about ten dollars/six pounds a quarter, > if I remember correctly) which automatically gives callers' numbers if > their exchange is up to it (most now are) and if they haven't excluded it. > Double glazing companies tend to exclude and so did my local council. > Many helplines are committed to *not* hiring the phones. You can also put > in your mum, spouse's office etc and use it for recognition and dialling. > It stores 15 favourite numbers and retains 30 calls, so you can see if > there is a pattern of the same number calling. You can get the service > without the special phone by dialling 1471, which gives you the number of > the last caller (unless they have excluded it) and gives the option of > dialling it straight away. > > I find it hard to believe that British Telecom is ahead of the USA in this. > I believe the smaller providers also have the service - it is certainly > possible to recognise calls from cable phone services. We also had a > voice-mail service provided by BT which could take two messages while we > were talking to a third person. > > In Hong Kong our phone recognises numbers, but a nearby publisher comes up > as 'out of area' and there is no line for alphabetical input. > > ChristineHere in the Greater Seattle area, one must go to the Police to request a "tap" on the line. In order for the police to "grant" such a device, "evidence" must be provided. One form of evidence is the *## routine which records the troublemaker's phone # (I think). Caller ID is another form of evidence. If a person is caught harrassing there are big consequences. The problem is getting the system to cooperate. In San Francisco the phone company used the *## routine (after the offending call). This procedure recorded the troublemaker's # at the phone company. The owner of the phone was never informed of the culprit's # or name. Only the police were. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 00:04:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: john reiss Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason I am not indexing yet, but I price hard back books 40 hours a week for a national used book store. We often receive books that have no dust jackets and no cataloguing information. If there isn't an index in a book, we are often very hard pressed to figure out what exactly the subject matter. If the first few pages of a book don't help, especially with bios, we throw them in a pile we fondly call "useless". For some reason, we come across gobs of history books without indexes. Many of us at the bookstore really on indexes to help us sell books to people trying to do research. You would be amazed at how many books are sold by the index alone. Becki Reiss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 05:28:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Kate McCain From: Kate McCain This announcement is being sent to a number of lists. Please excuse the multiple postings. Kate McCain College of Information Science & Technology Drexel University mccainkw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- SECOND POSTING: DOCUMENTATION ABSTRACTS, INC. BOARD OF DIRECTORS THE INFORMATION SCIENCE ABSTRACTS (ISA) RESEARCH GRANT TO BE AWARDED BY DOCUMENTATION ABSTRACTS, INC. New York, NY, May 1 -- The Board of Directors of Documentation Abstracts, Inc. (DAI) announces it will award the Information Science Abstracts (ISA) Research Grant of $1,500 in 1997. This grant is awarded annually by DAI to one or more information professionals to conduct a research project oriented toward the study of the primary or secondary literature of information science. All applicants for the ISA Research Grant must be information professionals and hold a graduate degree in library or information science. No individuals who are associated with ISA are eligible. This includes members of the Board of Directors of DAI, employees of Plenum Publishing Corporation, SilverPlatter, and KRI/Dialog. Applicants must submit a completed application package by August 31, 1997 outlining the scope and nature of the proposed project, providing evidence of an established methodology and a viable research design. Examples of possible topics for research include: the use of information resources, comparison of tools, quality of the literature, and bibliometric analysis. Recipients of previous ISA grants have researched such topics as: ISA and ARIST: Linkages to Enhance Literature Searching, A Model for Quantitative and Qualitative Database Evaluation Using the ISA Database, and Selecting Literature on Bibliometrics Through Bradford's Law. The goal of the research must be to produce a publishable paper. Half the amount of the $1,500 grant will be paid upon announcement of the award and the balance will be paid upon successful completion of the research project. In addition to the cash award, access to ISA CD-ROM will be provided for the length of the grant. Announcement of the award will be made December 1, 1997. Documentation Abstracts, Inc. is owner/sponsor of the monthly abstracting and indexing publication, Information Science Abstracts (ISA). International in scope, ISA provides references to and abstracts of the useful literature in the fields of information science and library science dating back to 1966. Its coverage extends to journal articles from over 400 journals, to conference proceedings, books, reports and patents. The URL for the ISA web page is: http://www.cox.smu.edu/dai CONTACT: For further information and for application instructions, Judith E. Watson, CAS P.O. Box 3012, Columbus OH 43210 Phone: 614/447-3662, E-mail: jwatson@cas.org Fax: 614/461-7158 Board of Directors, Documentation Abstracts, Inc. Signe E. Larson (SLA), Chair Judith E. Watson (ACS/CINF), Vice-Chair Ben-Ami Lipetz (ASI) Treasurer Katherine W. McCain (ALISE) Secretary Norman Howden (ALA) Bonnie Maxwell (ASIS) Randall W. Marcinko (ASIDIC) Paul Wrynn (MLA) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:25:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Wilson Award - wrapup (long) WILSON AWARD - SUMMARY OF REPLIES ON INDEX-L by Peter Rooney - May 9, 1997 (magnetix@ix.netcom.com) By way of introduction. The Nov/Dec 1996 issue of ASI Keywords published a letter of mine titled "Improving the Wilson Award Process". In it, I made a few points: - the recent pattern of not giving awards is discouraging to future participation - the submission process is expensive - receipt of the books submitted therefore should be gratefully acknowledged by ASI - judges' written evaluations should be made available to the submitters, on request - names of all indexers who competed should be published in the newsletter - honorable mentions could be made. In that same issue, Marcia Carlson, chair of the Wilson Panel, replied, saying, among other things, that the Wilson Award is not a mentoring exercise. Since I did not consider her reply to be entirely responsive, I replied to the INDEX-L email list on Jan. 20, 1997. From then till Feb. 20, a total of 19 replies were posted to the "Wilson Award" thread (by my count), from the following respondents: Peter Rooney; Marcia Carlson; Laura Gottlieb; John R. Sullivan; Sonsie (sconroy); JPerlman (2 emails); Seth A Maislin; Pilar (2 emails); Beth Hamilton; Carol Roberts (3 emails); Lori Lathrop; Victoria Baker; Jon and Glenda (Diagonal); Elinor Lindheimer; Elizabeth Moys (an extremely informative email that related the British procedure). Finally, in the March/April 1997 issue which has just appeared, appeared a letter from Robert Palmer, which was replied to in the same issue by Paula Presley. I'm writing this email, first, to express my gratitude for the mostly supportive and uniformly thoughtful emails and letters that were written in reply to my initial letters. I feel it's my obligation to summarize the discussion so far. I also feel a sense of urgency, because the ASI Annual Meeting is fast coming up; a Wilson Award (or nonaward) will be given; and I detect a certain indifference on the part of official ASI to the suggestions that have been made. So I've gone through the letters, and have categorized the points they made. Here is a summary: *** (nature of the respondents) - has submitted an index previously for a Wilson Award YES - 5; and had a bad experience - 3 - speaks as an insider/panelist in the Wilson Award process YES - 2 - speaks as an insider in a similar contest for another organization YES - 1 (general opinion about the Wilson Award process) - supports my position? strongly YES - 5; mildly NO - 2 - compared the Wilson Award process to similar awards of other societies (such as STC) YES - 8 - is appreciative of ASI, the judges, and the Wilson company for running the award YES - 2; NO - 2 - feels that the Wilson Award is a valuable offering of ASI YES - 2 - the Wilson Award process makes indexers feel GOOD - 2; BAD, SAD, ANGRY - 3; - likes the way the Wilson Award is run YES -2; NO - 5 - thinks a formal petition for changing the process should be made to ASI YES - 2 (specific recommendations for improvement) - an acknowledgement should be made that materials were received YES - 8 - a letter of appreciation (thank you note) should be sent after the judging YES - 6 - a list of all submitters should be published in the newsletter YES - 4; NO - 2 - honorable mentions should be made YES - 2; NO - 1 - judges should use detailed evaluation forms and carefully fill them out YES - 2 - indexer should be able to get an evaluation form (or other feedback) of the index submitted YES - 6; NO - 2 - the winning index should be printed (if copyright permission can be obtained) YES - 1 - winning entries should be displayed at the annual meeting YES - 4 - excerpts of rejected indexes should be printed to expose their flaws YES - 1; NO - 1 - the post-award statement of the panel about the rejected indexes is platitudinous YES - 2; NO - 1 - the submitted materials should be returned on request: YES - 4; YES, if SASE is enclosed - 2; NO - 2 - wants to know what happens to the books that are not returned YES - 3 (general recommendations for the Award) - wants to know who the judges are and what are their qualifications YES - 1 - the Wilson Award could be made more attractive to enter YES - 2 - categories of awards should be established: e.g. for textbooks, newsletters, trade books, etc., so that apples are not competing with oranges YES - 2 * * * * This data, though I've tried to categorize it, is still kind of raw. You can see the hot points (those that touch a nerve) by noting the number of respondents. I think this material could be the basis of a questionnaire to go to a wider pool, perhaps the entire membership; or the entire board; or those who submitted in a given year. At this time, I don't think I would make any specific recommendations, other than that the Wilson Award process should be opened to discussion. As documentation, I've printed out the 19 email responses, which come to 22 pages. I sent this letter, along with the printouts, to: Ann Blum (ASI president) Marcia Carlson (Wilson chair) I emailed this letter to the INDEX-L list on May 9. I'll also send the hardcopies of the responses to any who request them; but since a postal mailing will be about 25 pages, a contribution to defray the copying and mailing expense would be appreciated. Hope this helps. Finally, let's applaud the Wilson Company for their continuing support. *** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:16:57 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason for No Index In-Reply-To: <199705081537.IAA00591@dns1.mcn.org> I should point out that the publisher I've told this story about is in a niche market. There aren't that many books to choose from in the niche. But this is changing, and should they want to stay competitive, they'll need indexes. As far as I know, it is quite standard that libraries buy almost no nonfiction books without indexes. Also as far as I know, most publishers are familiar with the fact that libraries don't buy index-free books. It's just that some publishers don't see libraries as their market, when perhaps they could be or could become. This is especially true in niche markets, obviously. I work for a couple of small publishers (in alternative healing and in sexuality) who have learned the value of real indexes, a couple of books a year per. One of them has been developing library sales and is he ever thrilled! BTW, I've tried to talk to the publisher I quoted about it (she's got a 250-page technical manual), but it's a matter of short term gain--indexes cost money--and she's made up her mind. The comment is rationalization, and a focus on short-term gain can rarely be dissuaded. Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 05:37:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: "Getting to Know You" I've been thinking during the past week what a difference the past year has been in terms of my involvement with ASI and this list. Last year's Conference in Denver was my first ASI Conference, and I must admit that I made the trip with more than a little trepidation. However, between getting more involved with ASI and this list, I've learned a lot. I've also gotten to know enough people so that I feel much more comfortable making the trip this year. What a difference a year makes when one is getting involved with a volunteer organization! It'll also be wonderful to match names with faces. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 01:02:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes >In a message dated 97-05-08 19:07:41 EDT, you write: > ><< Regarding libraries refusing to accept books without indexes: > > Do we have any objective evidence of this? Has a survey been done anywhere > and are there numbers available? >> Here at Washington State University library, I've known several reference librarians to flat out refuse to purchase books without indexes. They are particularly vocal about the omission of indexes, too! Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes I would be glad to solicit responses from 6 or 8 academic libraries in my area on their selection policy concerning books with indexes. It would be useful to ask both the collection development librarian and the reference librarian in an academic library. Gerri Gray ghg@loyola.edu Loyola/Notre Dame Library Baltimore, MD 21212 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:16:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Crank calls What is a double glazing company? On Thu, 8 May 1997 21:01:08 -0400 Adrian Walker-Smith writes: >>From Christine Headley > >In the UK you can hire a phone (for about ten dollars/six pounds a >quarter, >if I remember correctly) which automatically gives callers' numbers if >their exchange is up to it (most now are) and if they haven't excluded >it. >Double glazing companies tend to exclude and so did my local council. >Many helplines are committed to *not* hiring the phones. You can also >put >in your mum, spouse's office etc and use it for recognition and >dialling. >It stores 15 favourite numbers and retains 30 calls, so you can see if >there is a pattern of the same number calling. You can get the >service >without the special phone by dialling 1471, which gives you the number >of >the last caller (unless they have excluded it) and gives the option of >dialling it straight away. > >I find it hard to believe that British Telecom is ahead of the USA in >this. > I believe the smaller providers also have the service - it is >certainly >possible to recognise calls from cable phone services. We also had a >voice-mail service provided by BT which could take two messages while >we >were talking to a third person. > >In Hong Kong our phone recognises numbers, but a nearby publisher >comes up >as 'out of area' and there is no line for alphabetical input. > >Christine > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:43:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Books Without Indexes Let's face it, there are mediocre publishers just as there are mediocre plumbers and physicians. Some are open to learning a different way, and some are not. I applaud efforts by ASI (that's a strong reason for paying the escalating dues) and persistent individual indexers to raise awareness of the importance of good indexes; each of us has to decide where our personal point of diminishing returns is. I just received a solicitation for bid from a company (not a publisher) who is looking for a review of the indexes to their technical documentation, and a bid for re-indexing the books. Their own usability surveys (applause for doing the surveys!) show the current indexes are a cause of customer dissatisfaction. Their answer to my question about time schedules for indexing was, "Max 5 days for a 400-page book." Notice "maximum" with no minimum stated. This is very technical material with a lot of specialized terminology! In my bid letter, I will explain to them that this type of schedule makes it difficult to do a high-quality job on a technical manual index; in fact, if they would allow their own technical writers two weeks for the index, they would get improved indexes whether they use a freelancer or not. (Of course, there might be other reasons for considering freelance indexers.) This is my contribution for this month to global education about indexing. Regards, Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) Tel: 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota What's book indexing? ---> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:23:32 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason for No Index Victoria, That kind of emotional decision doesn't make for long term good business practice. Your publisher has one of the items that create sales, monopoly. However, as you pointed out this will change or is changing and businesses must change to keep up. Even Bill Gates knows this as we watch him spend millions to open up a new market. A logical, dollars and sense approach to publishers like your friend opens their eyes. "Publisher, a study was completed just last week of libraries around the country. The study found that *$150* million dollars is spent annually on books in your field. This is a market in which *98%* of the libraries stated they would not buy books without indexes. There are *56,000* libraries you have closed out by choosing not to index. That translates to *half a million dollars* in gross profit you have shut the door on. Doesn't it make sense to spend *$1500* to tap a *half million dollar* market? Your competitors, Joe Blow and Mary Doe are investing that *$1500* and gaining *$230,000* and *$325,000* return for that investment. Your writers deserve a shot at that market and it will increase your bottom line. Please reconsider a professional index in your next publication. I would be pleased to work with you on it or lead you to another associate who is well versed in your field." Do you think your friend could resist the above if the *facts* were documented in a report and charted for visual impact? We can all profit from some statistics that would add logic to our belief that an index is crucial to a complete, well published book. :-> Ginny McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:55:12 -0700 Reply-To: Kathleen Fischer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Fischer Subject: indexes and library selection Hello All! As an academic reference librarian who selects reference books, I can tell you the index is definately a factor in purchasing decisions. Acquisitions librarians, who select materials for the rest of the library, also look for evidence of a good index, whether an item is individually selected or on an approval plan. Maybe the best evidence for the importance of the index in library purchasing decisions can be found by looking at the standard journals librarians use for book reviews, such as _Library Journal_, _ARBA_ (American Reference Books Annual), etc. The review of the book ALWAYS mentions, in the very least, whether or not the book includes an index. This information is so important it is part of the citation, right along with the author, title, publisher, pages, price, and ISBN. Some reviews will evaluate the index as well. Curiously, _Publisher's Weekly_ is an exception to the rule--citations to books reviewed there do not include whether an index is present. -Kathleen Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:03:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Music in Winston-Salem Sometime back there was a snippet of a discussion about musician-indexers getting together in Winston-Salem to play flutes and recorders, and possibly other instruments. Is this group still planning to get together? If so, please e-mail me. I'd like to join up with you. Thanks! We could also discuss indexing books on music and the arts. :-) Marilyn Rowland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:13:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristin L Manke Subject: International STC Conference in Toronto Just a friendly note to tell let you know that the International Society for Technical Communicators in meeting in Toronto, Canada next week. There are several talks being given on indexing. Hope to see some of you there! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:18:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Crank calls In-Reply-To: <199705091607.JAA15367@mx5.u.washington.edu> I'm guessing those are double-paned windows in the U.S. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Fri, 9 May 1997, Suellen Kasoff wrote: > What is a double glazing company? > > On Thu, 8 May 1997 21:01:08 -0400 Adrian Walker-Smith > writes: > >>From Christine Headley > > > >In the UK you can hire a phone (for about ten dollars/six pounds a > >quarter, > >if I remember correctly) which automatically gives callers' numbers if > >their exchange is up to it (most now are) and if they haven't excluded > >it. > >Double glazing companies tend to exclude and so did my local council. > >Many helplines are committed to *not* hiring the phones. You can also > >put > >in your mum, spouse's office etc and use it for recognition and > >dialling. > >It stores 15 favourite numbers and retains 30 calls, so you can see if > >there is a pattern of the same number calling. You can get the > >service > >without the special phone by dialling 1471, which gives you the number > >of > >the last caller (unless they have excluded it) and gives the option of > >dialling it straight away. > > > >I find it hard to believe that British Telecom is ahead of the USA in > >this. > > I believe the smaller providers also have the service - it is > >certainly > >possible to recognise calls from cable phone services. We also had a > >voice-mail service provided by BT which could take two messages while > >we > >were talking to a third person. > > > >In Hong Kong our phone recognises numbers, but a nearby publisher > >comes up > >as 'out of area' and there is no line for alphabetical input. > > > >Christine > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helvetia Martell Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes Gerri: I think this a good idea. I offer to do the same in the Houston metro area. Helvetia >I would be glad to solicit responses from 6 or 8 academic libraries in >my area on their selection policy concerning books with indexes. It would >be useful to ask both the collection development librarian and the reference >librarian in an academic library. > Gerri Gray ghg@loyola.edu > Loyola/Notre Dame Library > Baltimore, MD 21212 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:28:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cain, Joy" Subject: REASONS FOR INDEXES >Regarding libraries refusing to accept books without indexes: > >Do we have any objective evidence of this? Has a survey been done anywhere >and are there numbers available? Perhaps some of the librarians on this list who are also on one or more of the library/librarian lists would consider posting a short questionnaire to those lists, and then summarizing the responses they receive. -------------------- Joy P. Cain Assistant Law Indexer, Legal Division Legislative Counsel Bureau State of Nevada jcain@lcb.state.nv.us / (702) 687-6830 "The surest way to be happy is to seek happiness for others." Martin Luther King, Jr. -------------------- Joy P. Cain Assistant Law Indexer, Legal Division Legislative Counsel Bureau State of Nevada jcain@lcb.state.nv.us / (702) 687-6830 "The surest way to be happy is to seek happiness for others." Martin Luther King, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:38:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chuck Banks Subject: Re: Crank calls For Suellen Kasoff, et al: Suellen wrote: > What is a double glazing company? A British company that installs storm windows. Best Regards! Chuck Banks -- __ ________ ______ |\\ | || // Chuck Banks | \\ | ||_______ || Senior Technical Writer | \\ | || || NEC America, Inc. | \\| \\______ \\______ E-Mail: chuck@asl.dl.nec.com America, Incorporated WWW: http://www.nec.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:27:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) I definitely agree that we need some sort of statistics to strengthen our case in marketing our services, thereby encouraging publishers to provide professional indexes for their products. What concerns me is that if we have an informal survey, with no standard questionnaire, no standard statistical analysis of the data, and no control of the sampling, we may not get the information and results that we really need. I suggest that we aim for a formal committee within ASI (if possible), to come up with a plan of action for a study of this sort. Since the ASI national meetings are next week, this would be a great time to explore this possibility. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:59:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Adam D. Klein" Subject: Re: indexes and library selection Hi everyone - How do librarians and others feel about the importance of indexes on CD-ROM products? Are free-text search features enough to make indexes unnecessary? Thanks. -Adam Klein ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: indexes and library selection Author: Kathleen Fischer at INTERNET Date: 5/9/97 12:55 PM Hello All! As an academic reference librarian who selects reference books, I can tell you the index is definately a factor in purchasing decisions. Acquisitions librarians, who select materials for the rest of the library, also look for evidence of a good index, whether an item is individually selected or on an approval plan. Maybe the best evidence for the importance of the index in library purchasing decisions can be found by looking at the standard journals librarians use for book reviews, such as _Library Journal_, _ARBA_ (American Reference Books Annual), etc. The review of the book ALWAYS mentions, in the very least, whether or not the book includes an index. This information is so important it is part of the citation, right along with the author, title, publisher, pages, price, and ISBN. Some reviews will evaluate the index as well. Curiously, _Publisher's Weekly_ is an exception to the rule--citations to books reviewed there do not include whether an index is present. -Kathleen Fischer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:24:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) In-Reply-To: <199705091728.KAA27965@mail5.netcom.com> I would suggest that someone might want to contact the American Library Association in Chicago as they might have the information you need. Also the ALA annual meeting will be in June and this might be a way to get the survey distributed. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Fri, 9 May 1997, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > I definitely agree that we need some sort of statistics to strengthen our > case in marketing our services, thereby encouraging publishers to provide > professional indexes for their products. What concerns me is that if we > have an informal survey, with no standard questionnaire, no standard > statistical analysis of the data, and no control of the sampling, we may not > get the information and results that we really need. I suggest that we aim > for a formal committee within ASI (if possible), to come up with a plan of > action for a study of this sort. Since the ASI national meetings are next > week, this would be a great time to explore this possibility. > > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > ***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:03:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Huerster Subject: Microsoft Access I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has used Microsoft Access to construct a bibliographic database (references to articles would also be appreciated) Thanks. Bob Huerster ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:03:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Microsoft Access In-Reply-To: <199705091922.MAA25890@mail5.netcom.com> Bob Rather than reinventing the wheel regarding building a bibliographic database with Microsoft Access I would suggest you might want to investigate a software package called Papyrus that is a bibliography system with a lot of power for a low cost, $99.00 last time I checked. THis program can import files directly from CD ROM databases like Silver Platter as well as downlowads from Dialog and Grateful Med (I have an older version so this list has probably changed) and it is very easy to design the instructions to import from other sources. The program can also export a bibliography or even footnotes. Among the formats that it can generate a bibliography for is APA, Medline (Vancouver), Chiccago Manual Style A as well as a list several journals. The one feature I found really helpful is that it can imbed codes for references directly into the paper you are writing and when you are all done, insert the correctly formatted references into the paper and generate the bibliography in the format you need. This way you can add, change, delete references in the paper at will and not have to worry about keeping track of them or worse renumbering them / The program has alot of features and is very easy to use. You can contact them at Research Software Design 2718 SW Kelly Street Suite 181 Portland OR 97201 503 796 1368 503 241-4260 FAX Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Fri, 9 May 1997, Bob Huerster wrote: > I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has used Microsoft Access to > construct a bibliographic database (references to articles would also be > appreciated) Thanks. Bob Huerster > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:11:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Workshop rates I'm doing a workshop for tech writers in a local corporation and would like to take it on the road. For those of you who do such things, I have some questions: - How do you cover travel expenses? Do you have a fixed rate for your workshops that includes an average travel expense? Or do you build specific expenses into each workshop? - Do you price by the student? By the hour? By the whole package? - When you present to professional organizatons (STC, ASI, etc) are you ever paid for your services or expenses? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:21:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristin L Manke Subject: Re: Reasons for Indexes I'm in! I offer to do the same in the Eastern Washington State area with the public and academic libraries. Gerri: I think this a good idea. I offer to do the same in the Houston metro area. Helvetia >I would be glad to solicit responses from 6 or 8 academic libraries in >my area on their selection policy concerning books with indexes. It would >be useful to ask both the collection development librarian and the reference >librarian in an academic library. > Gerri Gray ghg@loyola.edu > Loyola/Notre Dame Library > Baltimore, MD 21212 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:37:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) In-Reply-To: <199705091727.NAA09978@SMTP.USIT.NET> I strongly agree with Cynthia that if a survey is going to be done, it should be done right. I teach questionnaire design/research methods here at UBC. Unfortunately I won't be as ASI next week because I'm teaching summer school, but if the person(s) who winds up "heading" up the survey process will get in touch I'll be very glad to help with the survey, sampling, etc. Susie Stephenson School of Library, Archival and Information Studies University of British Columbia Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Fri, 9 May 1997, Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: > I definitely agree that we need some sort of statistics to strengthen our > case in marketing our services, thereby encouraging publishers to provide > professional indexes for their products. What concerns me is that if we > have an informal survey, with no standard questionnaire, no standard > statistical analysis of the data, and no control of the sampling, we may not > get the information and results that we really need. I suggest that we aim > for a formal committee within ASI (if possible), to come up with a plan of > action for a study of this sort. Since the ASI national meetings are next > week, this would be a great time to explore this possibility. > > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > ***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:23:02 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) Now I am really sick that I didn't make plans to attend the conference in Winston-Salem. I spoke with Gail Rhoades today about my software and I began to realize how much I will lose by missing this meeting and the opportunity to meet wonderful people like her. I am really excited about all the positive response already coming from members on the list. I had a short questionnaire in mind that would basically report guidelines already established at libraries and some research into gross sales for indexed books, general cost for index and specific budgets for books which would fall into the indexed category and represent possible gross sales. I have been involved with surveys and research for years now although I don't have the formal training, I do have the experience of having administered hundreds of questionnaires. In fact, right now I am drooling over the Burke Institute seminars but they are so expensive! Anyway, I think Mary is right. It is crucial that the survey be coordinated and meet the basic guidelines for statistical research. It is also possible that there are other issues that AIS management would like data on outside the scope of what we have been discussing. I am not familiar with the budget of AIS but perhaps hiring a national or international firm to handle the survey is the answer. Correct me if I am too far off base, Mary, but we are probably talking in the neighborhood of at least $50 a survey if we know what we want and keep it brief and bring in professional surveyers and the firms that farm work out to them. To hire a firm like Roper Starch would involve months and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Since we are doing this survey for the benefit of the whole membership I believe we could use a standardized questionnaire, footnote the criteria used for the sampling and start to enter the data. If nothing else, the results and methods used could be posted on a linked web page as a caveat. Statistically backing up what "everyone knows" is generally an expensive undertaking. I believe that we can keep it simple and use the resources at hand and do this in a fashion wherein no one person is overworked. Everyone that helps with the gathering of information will have their geographical area represented in the statistics adding impact to their own presentations. I would be willing to take a couple of days and drop into or call libraries in the New Jersey, New York area. Most people are willing to answer a 5 minute or less questionnaire although anything much longer generally requires some form of remuneration for the respondent. If the management of AIS gives their approval at the conference coming up, we could plan for a week of constructing the questionnaires under Mary's guidance; another week wherein I could create the database and reports based on the questionnaires and post the questionnaires to the list for members to download and print off (as many as they are willing to handle); someone from AIS management could send out hard copy questionnaires to anyone showing an interest in participating who is not online; two weeks later could be the cutoff for receipt of completed questionnaires; a week to enter the data; a week for Mary, if she is willing to interpret the data, if necessary; and, within two months we could have some statistics on what "everyone knows" to be true. During this time frame I would need an estimate of the cost to the publisher of a typical index and I could check with a friend of mine at Cowles who could probably help me find the statistics on gross sales. The results could be posted to an AIS web page, used in brochures and advertising and distributed in Keywords to the membership at large as a marketing tool for their use. Anyone else who sees a hole in this plan or a way to help implement it, please respond. I'm always open to constructive criticism. :-> Ginny McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. P.O. Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 vmchenry@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:23:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bruce Altner Subject: Re: Microsoft Access In-Reply-To: > >I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has used Microsoft Access to >construct a bibliographic database (references to articles would also be >appreciated) Thanks. Bob Huerster > We use Access for this purpose. Especially for clients who want to put their databases online, accessible via the World Wide Web. For a good example see the Running End Boating Library at http://www.rngend.com/. We converted this from ProCite to Access, then used Visual Basic to build the Web-database interface scripts. Thanks, Bruce Altner Director, Technical Services ARInternet Corporation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Wilson Award commentary - did it get sent? On 5/9, early morning, I sent a long commentary on the Wilson Award process. Usually I get back a confirmation (having SET INDEX-L REPRO) but this time I did not. So I just wonder, do I need to send it again? If you are concerned about the Wilson Award process, please reply. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for indexes) Now we're talking!---Survey of librarians, ALA, ASI action committee. And how timely with the ASI meeting and the ALA meeting coming up. Unfortunately I can't make W-S, but I'd love to be kept informed. How can we target magazines that include book reviews but say not a word about indexes, good, bad, or not-at-all like the New York Times Magazine? Thelda Bertram/Indexing Services TBrtrm@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Workshop rates Dick, When talking to local chapters of other organizations, I have been paid a minimal amount (up to $50.00) plus reimbursed the cost of copying handouts. Depending on whether or not I thought it might be a lead to work, I might waive a fee (I chalk it up as an "advertising" expense--no cost to me but I don't feel I need to be paid for it). For example, I do lunchtime brown-bag talks for local in-house editors, where I give a short presentation and leave plenty of room for questions. Then I don't charge, assuming I will be working for the client and making it up in trade over the long haul. It's a whole other story if I am giving a half-day workshop with transparencies, handouts, etc.--much more prep work involved, and also not the expected return. In this case, I feel like I need to be paid like a consultant or teacher. When I presented the PDW workshops in Boston and Boulder, I got travel expenses, and honorarium, plus copying expenses. In other words, I make a distinction on who I am talking to, what I am talking about, how long I am talking, how far from home I have to go, how much prep work is involved, whether or not there is a fee to the participants (e.g., no fee for the brown-bag lunches), and some other criteria I can't recall off the top of my head at 5 pm on Friday! Hope this helps. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 04:23:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: A Publisher's Reason for No Index In a message dated 97-05-09 11:33:13 EDT, you write: > BTW, I've tried to talk to the publisher I quoted about it (she's got a > 250-page technical manual), but it's a matter of short term gain--indexes > cost money--and she's made up her mind. The comment is rationalization, > and a focus on short-term gain can rarely be dissuaded. In terms of technical manuals, if it is for a software product, the company will take a hit on increased technical support calls. If it is for another product or equipment, the company will take a hit in either decreased efficiency in the users of the manual, or increased phone calls to trainers or other staff "help" positions to find out information that is already in the manual but unaccessible. Both of these side effects cost the company money -- short and long term. I read somewhere that the average tech support phone call costs $18.00 to answer in personnel, training, equipment, network support, phone systems, knowledge databases, etc. If the index saves one phone call per day, that is over $6000.00 the company is saving. If the average worker costs $20.00 per hour (I'm making this one up) and having an index saves 30 minutes of hassling over finding out something for one employee per day, that's over $3000 in saved time. Seems to me that people who only look at the short term spend more in long run. An index for a 250 page book rarely costs $3,000, much less $6000, so they would actually come out ahead. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 04:29:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Microsoft Accress I tried posting this last nite. However, it looks as though my original post did not make the last digest. If this is a duplicate, I apologize. I, too, am using Microsoft Accress, but for 2 different freelance projects. I thought that at one time there was a newsgroup for Microsoft Access users. Does anyone on the list know whether there is such a newsgroup? If so, could you let me know how to subscribe to it? Thanks, in advance, for your help. Have a good weekend. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Who is wishing that I had not registered for the Solo First Aid Weekend, just before the ASI Conference. (groan)) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:47:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FRED BROWN Subject: Macros for Embedded Indexes When indexing FrameMaker or MS Word documents I use a method similar to = Wildefire's. I find writing the index using dedicated indexing software = allows me to focus first on the business of writing and then on the = business of embedding. Before embedding the index I convert the index = into page order and do some tidying up in preparation for creating the = embedded index entries. I've been experimenting with macros to speed the process of embedding = the index entries into the main document. I've found that I can use = macros to speed the cutting and pasting between my page order index and = the main document. I set up my computer with the main document on one side of the screen = and the page number index on the other side. The main document is = displayed at the full page size so as to avoid scrolling. I use a 17", = high-resolution monitor with a "virtual desktop" feature. The virtual = desktop feature allows me to maximize the size of the main document = while hiding borders and unneeded parts of windows. I begin by placing the cursor in the main document where I want the = index entry to go. Next, I press a key combination to start the macro. = Typically, the macro will do the following steps: - switch to the page order index - copy the index entry from the page order index into the clipboard - change the colour of the entry in the page order index to indicate the = entry is done - move the cursor to the next entry in the page order index (ready for = the next entry) - switch to the main document - paste the index entry into the main document I use different macros for different types of entries. As an example, = for FrameMaker I use two macros when entering index entries that have a = page range. The first macro enters the starting index marker and the = second enters the ending index marker. I begin by placing the cursor in = the main document at the start of the page range. The first macro does = the following steps: - switch to the page order index - copy the index entry from the page order index=20 - insert <$startrange> at the beginning of the entry - change the colour of the entry in the page order index to green = indicating the start index marker is done - move the cursor back to the beginning of the entry in the page order = index (ready for the second macro) - switch to the main document - paste the index marker into the main document Next, I move the cursor in the main document to the end of the page = range. The second macro inserts <$endrange> into the entry; sets the = colour of the entry in the page order index to red indicating the entry = is complete; and moves the cursor to the start of the next entry in the = page number index. With MS Word you can create macros using the Macro Recorder. My local = Adobe FrameMaker rep gave me the tip that a windows macro recorder will = allow you to create macros for FrameMaker. I'm currently using a = program called EZ Macros for this purpose. Creating macros takes some time and patience. Once done they can = substantially reduce the time plus wear and tear from manually cutting = and pasting. (To cut and paste 2000 entries a day, Wildefire and her = husband should be declared saints!) Cheers, Fred Brown * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * McCrae Consulting Associates "technical communication" fredb@cyberus.ca Phone: 613-728-5761 Fax: 613-728-9373 31 Grange Ave., Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K1Y 0N8 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:24:25 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Microsoft Accress Willa, Try http://www.microsoft.com/Access there is a lot of good information there as well as a discussion group. By the way, I will be in Boston next week while you are in Winston Salem. Doing a presentation then staying with friends. I am downloading some new free stuff from the ms page right now. Hope this helps. Ginny McHenry Willa MacAllen wrote: > > I tried posting this last nite. However, it looks as though my > original post did not make the last digest. If this is a duplicate, I > apologize. > > I, too, am using Microsoft Accress, but for 2 different freelance > projects. I thought that at one time there was a newsgroup for > Microsoft Access users. Does anyone on the list know whether there is > such a newsgroup? If so, could you let me know how to subscribe to it? > > Thanks, in advance, for your help. > > Have a good weekend. > > Willa MacAllen > MacAllen's Information Services > Librarian/Technical Writer > Boston > macallen@tiac.net > (Who is wishing that I had not registered for the Solo First Aid Weekend, > just before the ASI Conference. (groan)) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:33:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "L. Mark Bruffey" Subject: Re: Microsoft Accress Goto msnews.microsoft.com and look around at all newsgroups; there is a lot of access stuff! Mark Bruffey CBTS Library At 04:29 AM 5/9/97 -0700, you wrote: >I tried posting this last nite. However, it looks as though my >original post did not make the last digest. If this is a duplicate, I >apologize. > >I, too, am using Microsoft Accress, but for 2 different freelance >projects. I thought that at one time there was a newsgroup for >Microsoft Access users. Does anyone on the list know whether there is >such a newsgroup? If so, could you let me know how to subscribe to it? > >Thanks, in advance, for your help. > >Have a good weekend. > >Willa MacAllen >MacAllen's Information Services >Librarian/Technical Writer >Boston >macallen@tiac.net >(Who is wishing that I had not registered for the Solo First Aid Weekend, >just before the ASI Conference. (groan)) > > L. Mark Bruffey CBTS Library 1380 S Valley Forge Rd. Lansdale PA 19446 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: New web site To all Index-L'rs and others; I have my first web site up and running, though it hasn't been thoroughly tested yet. You can find it at http://pw1.netcom.com/~indexer/infouniv.htm. I've included an editorial services survey form which so far has worked fine. I would like to have some of you drop by there and give it a test run. I have until the end of next week to submit any changes to the survey as it is on another server that has no update capability. I hope this message gets through as I haven't had the best luck with getting these directly to the list. Sincerely Linda Kenny Sloan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:19:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) I would like to add one other element to your list for getting responses. Put it on the Net. Either the ASI site or one of our sites. I'd be glad to upload it to my site if that would help. Linda Sloan ************************************************** Linda Kenny Sloan Information Universe Editorial services for the space industry Editing, indexing, proofreading email indexer@ix.netcom.com URL http://pw1.netcom.com/~indexer/infouniv.htm ************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:26:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MariaYoung@AOL.COM Subject: CINDEX Reception To all registered CINDEX users: Please join us at our annual reception for CINDEX users on Thursday, May 15 from 5.30 - 7.30 pm in the Henry F. Shaffner House, Winston-Salem, NC. The Henry F. Shaffner House is directly across from the Hawthorne Inn, the venue for the Annual Meeting of the American Society of Indexers, May 14-17. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting. _____________________________ Frances S. Lennie Indexing Research E-mail flennie@indexres.com 100 Allens Creek Road Phone: (716) 461-5530 P.O. Box 18609 Fax: (716) 442-3924 Rochester, NY 14618-0609 Web: http://www.indexres.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Grand Forks Herald Project The following is a note from one of the co-chairs of the GFH Support Team. Our web page is up. Volunteer indexers can email me off list. Neva njsmith@bga.com >Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 17:03:22 -0400 >From: Barbara Semonche >Subject: Grand Forks Herald Project > >To indexers and NewsLib subscribers: > As a follow-up to the discussion on this list and among indexers >about the state of the Grand Forks Herald newspaper library, here is a >web site which should prove useful. Suggestions for additions and >improvements are welcome. > The URL is: > > > Indexers will find there the full text of my chapter on newspaper >indexing and news librarians will discover the full text of Richard >Geiger's chapter on preservation and disaster control. Both chapters >have useful bibliographies. > I also added a list of other news libraries known to be hit by >disasters. As soon as I have time, I'll add the full text accounts of >news librarians coping with fires, floods, earthquakes, and hurricanes. >Anyone with additional information is urged to contact me. > Best regards, > >Barbara P. Semonche, Library Director (Listowner: NewsLib, NCSLA) >UNC-CH School of Journalism and Mass Communication >Howell Hall, CB# 3365 Phone: 919/962-1204, Fax: 962-0620 >Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3365 E-mail: semonch@gibbs.oit.unc.edu > Semonche's URL http://sunsite.unc.edu/journalism/ > > > > < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS njsmith@bga.com DataSmiths Information Services voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:04:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Re: Mass. chapter activities and corrected Web Site URL In a message dated 97-05-07 11:26:12 EDT, indexa2z@the-spa.com (Barbara Stroup) writes: << The Massachusetts Society of Indexers will hold its annual meeting on Saturday May 31 from 12-3 pm at the Unitarian Universalist Meetinghouse in Springfield, MA. A catered picnic-style lunch will be served. Election results will be announced and a discussion about the Winston-Salem ASI conference will follow. >> Please note that you may register for the Annual Meeting via the MA Chapter web site. The URL for the site was listed incorrectly in the most recent newsletter. The correct URL is: http://www.marisol.com/maasi/maasi.htm Looking forward to seeing other MA chapter members in Winston-Salem and in Springfield! Marilyn Rowland ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:35:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Editor's desk Can anyone suggest where I can buy a slanted editor's desk - something to set on a desk or table. I am located in the Boston Massachusetts area, but mail order is a backup possibility. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Editor's desk Try Levenger, Tools for Serious Readers at 1-800-544-0880. (Mail order.) I have bought a few things from them, with good results. At 07:35 PM 5/10/97 -0700, Joel S. Berson wrote: >Can anyone suggest where I can buy a slanted editor's desk - something >to set on a desk or table. I am located in the Boston Massachusetts >area, but mail order is a backup possibility. > >Joel > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 19:53:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: PageMaker training? Does anyone know a source of PageMaker training, preferably one conducted by someone who knows indexing? Is there anyone out there who is proficient in creating indexes with PageMaker who would be willing to conduct one-on-one training? I would be willing to travel and pay for the service. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:58:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Trish Wittenstein Subject: Re: Editor's desk At 07:49 PM 5/10/97 -0400, you wrote: >Try Levenger, Tools for Serious Readers at 1-800-544-0880. (Mail order.) I >have bought a few things from them, with good results. I purchased one of their editor's desks recently after serious neck and shoulder discomforts. It's well made and helps the neck discomfort tremendously. I recommend the smaller one (they have two sizes). It takes up a lot of space on my work table, but it is worth that small inconvenience. Trish Wittenstein Three Rivers, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:46:01 -0400 Reply-To: Marjanovic Mirjana Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marjanovic Mirjana Subject: master index, updating Hello, I'm about to sign (with a friend indexer) a contract for indexing 9 volumes of technical standards - 1600 pages where each chapter has its own pagination- but (there's always one but :-( ) they don't even want to consider updates (few times per year) by us, they think it will be easy just to swich page references or to delete entry....in PageMaker and they imagine that couple of programmers will do...We used almost everything to convince them that their approach is to simplist (blind, call it as you want) and the only result we obtained is to frighten them: they seem to prefer not to do it at all then to have to think about updating index with one unknowen software (Cindex). Now they ask if we could do it in PageMaker or in Word 7.0, but I've done quite a few indexes for personal use in Word and I'd rather kiss good bye that contract than sign such a horor! Not to mention that we already did a whole project, pre-test, test, indexing policy and guidelines, and we strongly suggest high specificity (according to a study of user's needs that we've done...) Could anyone give us advice how to deal with them? By the way, we agreed on 6 weeks to do it, with Cindex it would be fair enough (?), but with a thing not made in purpose for indexing.... Thank you very much, and don't be afraid - we won't be doing it in english ;-) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Mirjana Marjanovic - (Martic) marjanom@ere.Umontreal.ca LA VIE EST BELLE -- ZIVOT JE LEP (IF YOU WANNA MAKE IT THAT WAY) M2 - Ecole de bibliotheconomie et des sciences de l'information Universite de Montreal :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:56:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) In a message dated 97-05-09 15:39:20 EDT, you write: << definitely agree that we need some sort of statistics to strengthen our case in marketing our services, thereby encouraging publishers to provide professional indexes for their products. What concerns me is that if we have an informal survey, with no standard questionnaire, no standard statistical analysis of the data, and no control of the sampling, we may not get the information and results that we really need. I suggest that we aim for a formal committee within ASI (if possible), to come up with a plan of action for a study of this sort. Since the ASI national meetings are next week, this would be a great time to explore this possibility. >> Absolutely, you need a formal survey with standardized questions and statistical analysis of the results. Without this, the results will not be taken seriously. This raises the problem of sampling. We just can't bring the survey to our friends and contacts. It would have to be sent out in a more unbiased manner.. that doesn't stop us from urging our contacts to reply to the survey. Low returns mean wasted money. A committee should be able to decide whether ASI has the resources to do this properly and whether the results have the real potential to be turned into more work for indexers. Perhaps an informal survey of some publishers who don't use indexes (what percentage is that?) could tell us if they would be influenced by the results of such a survey, considering ASI sponsored it. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 23:04:55 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Survey of librarians on indexes (was Reasons for Indexes) Sharon, I envision it as more that we visit or call all libraries in surrounding areas. No one should have long distance phone calls unless they want to do it or long trips. For instance, where I live there are about 10 towns within easy distance. Each has a library. There are several universities who have libraries. I could see me taking the questionniare to or calling these libraries at little or no expense to me and getting their answers to a few questions. 1) What is your budget for non-fiction books per year; 2) do you have a policy regarding back of the book indexing for non-fiction, technical and reference material; 3) in the absence of policy what is the "unwritten procedure"; 4) what is your name; 5) position?; 6) do you make decisions about purchasing? 7) name, address and phone number of library. A questionnaire like that would be short and to the point, would gather appropriate data and let us know we are speaking with someone in a position of authority who can make the decisions. Nothing elaborate, not asking friends or acquaintences, just finding a cost-effective way to gather specific information. This simple questionnaire could be printed off the web page of ASI by members who wish to help out then they could email their answers. If there is support for the idea at the conference then copies could be mailed or passed out to those not online and they could mail me their answers. Additionally, a copy could be included in Keywords and those who wish to participate could send the completed forms back to me for tabulating and reporting. The only thing we might look at would be a verification process. I could call a sampling of responding libraries and double check that they were interviewed as is standard practice in these studies. I just went back to AT&T so have 250 free minutes a month of long distance which I could contribute toward verification of data. Anyone else who would like to help verify could be supplied with a sampling of numbers to contact. If survey in a group sent by a member doesn't verify it wouldn't be used, the srveys submitted by that person are suspect and would have to be checked. With these methods I believe the results will be as good as any expensive survey would be. We are not looking for opinions as to if indexes are good things, just if, in practice, libraries (public and private) put their funds into indexed books and what kind of funds are we talking about. It would be nice to get statistics of performance over a period of time as to ratio of dollars spent on indexed vs non-indexed books in our target area but this is not a viable alternative in the scope of this project being conducted by volunteers. To extend the survey would, I think, be asking too much of respondents and members. We are all very busy and though this has the possibility for a good return as a marketing tool it is more like icing on the cake. What is really important is the added value for little investment of an index. What I am talking about is just another argument - one which addresses the bottom line - and may influence some publishers where an argument of pride in product would not. Just as one person told of a publisher who said, if I put indexes in they would just read them in the bookstore and not buy the book. Disproving that issue would be a monumental task; interviewing in bookstores, checking with someone like Amazon for how many books are returned that would never have been bought had the customer had a chance to check the index, how many people just don't bother to return an unusable item, etc. The possibilities are endless and that is another survey at another time! :-> Ginny McHenry Exceptional Results, Inc. PO Box 663 South Plainfield, NJ 07080 vmchenry@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:06:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett Subject: Chinese names - Thanks Thanks to everyone who responded to my query about Chinese names. I found the discussion interesting and helpful. For me, discussions like this really point to the value of this list. Sorry I won't see you in Winston-Salem, but I hope those of you who attend will share something about the meeting with the rest of us. Nan Badgett dba Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:51:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Editor's desk I have the larger Levenger's desk, and I love it (esp. for those large page proofs). I also have the plastic "cover" sheet, so I can put my to do lists and crib sheets under it (like the Cindex commands for foreign accents--I prefer to search there than on the help screens)... Another 2 cents. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:59:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: master index, updating In-Reply-To: <199705110047.RAA05003@mx4.u.washington.edu> Word any version before 97 is seriously flawed for indexing since the master document feature is broken. If you try to create a master document, page number errors are generated. I had most of my index entries, for one book for example, referring to an non-existant page. The result was that I had to do speparate indexes for separate parts of the book and combine them by hand. A pain (it took a month). I have never used PageMaker for indexing, but be aware that ver. 6.0 has some minor problems with its Win95 environment. My advice, if the company insists on making you use Word or PM, charge by the hour! Paul D. Buell PS: Internally within MicroSoft, they will not let you use Word for indexing because, as one manager told me, "it doesn't work." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:04:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Editor's desk, and how I work Barbara Cohen wrote: > > I have the larger Levenger's desk, and I love it (esp. for those large page > proofs). I have the large Editor's Desk too, and love it. The only thing I wish I had was a larger-width lip on the front; thick chapters have to be put in smaller piles because they fall off the front edge. I called Levenger's to see if their "Fat Lip" would fit the large Editor's Desk, but they said no. At the beginning of a project, the whole manuscript gets 3-hole punched and put in a 3-ring notebook. Then I figure out how many pages must be completed each day in order to meet my deadline, and I wite those numbers down somewhere. Each day, I take out the pages for that day's proof-reading (vetting), reading, marking, data entry, or whatever the day's task is. As I finish a chapter, I put it back in the notebook (I like visual cues for measuring "done-ness," like a notbook filling up). I work until the day's pages are done, then I quit. During reading and markup, my flat desktop, from left to right, holds: pile of un-read proof pages, Levenger desk with current chapter, notebook to put finished chapters back into (or sometimes just a pile to be put back into the notebook later). For data entry I move to a slant-topped computer stand next to my desk, and put one chapter at a time in front of me; the rest of the day's pile is next to me, and the rest of the book is still in the big notebook, close at hand. I do data entry and preliminary editing (cross-posting, etc) for each chapter as I finish data entry. For final edit, the whole filled notebook sits in fron of me at the computer, and the pages never get taken out again! > I also have the plastic "cover" sheet, so I can put my to do lists and crib > sheets under it (like the Cindex commands for foreign accents--I prefer to > search there than on the help screens)... I also have the plastic cover page, and I keep the current page list or TOC for the book, and any client-specific notes, under it. I put the Editor's Desk on my flat workspace while I read and markup, then I move to my slanted computer stand for data entry. When I'm not actively reading or marking an index, the Levenger desk sits on the floor in a corner in order to free up my flat space again. > Another 2 cents. An another. :-) Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:19:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: PageMaker training? Richard Evans wrote: > > Does anyone know a source of PageMaker training, preferably one conducted > by someone who knows indexing? Is there anyone out there who is proficient > in creating indexes with PageMaker who would be willing to conduct > one-on-one training? I would be willing to travel and pay for the service. > I am *very* interested in this, too. I would like to learn from someone who 1) indexes and 2) uses PageMaker a lot. Please respond to the list, or to me and I will summarize responses for others who are interested. Thanks! Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: master index, updating In a message dated 97-05-11 15:29:59 EDT, Paul Buell writes: > Word any version before 97 is seriously flawed for indexing since the > master document feature is broken. If you try to create a master document, > page number errors are generated. You can get around this by creating a separate Word file for the index, and inserting RD fields. I have never used the master document feature for building multiple file indexes -- I've always done the field method. I have never used PageMaker for > indexing, but be aware that ver. 6.0 has some minor problems with its > Win95 environment. Just a note that 6.5 seems to be behaving fine. > > PS: Internally within MicroSoft, they will not let you use Word for > indexing because, as one manager told me, "it doesn't work." > Actually, that's not quite true. I have done several indexes for Microsoft using Word and using their own in-house Word macros for indexing. It does work -- it is a royal pain, though!!!! Each department within Microsoft determines which tool they will use. MS Press will often let you build indexes in cindex or macrex. Some MS groups have never heard of tools other groups have developed. Charge by the HOUR is right! Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 16:46:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jvh Subject: Re: PageMaker training? Ann Norcross wrote: > > Richard Evans wrote: > > > > Does anyone know a source of PageMaker training, preferably one conducted > > by someone who knows indexing? Is there anyone out there who is proficient > > in creating indexes with PageMaker who would be willing to conduct > > one-on-one training? I would be willing to travel and pay for the service. > > > > I am *very* interested in this, too. I would like to learn from someone > who 1) indexes and 2) uses PageMaker a lot. Please respond to the list, > or to me and I will summarize responses for others who are interested. > > Thanks! > > Ann Norcross Ann and Dick, et al I'm very well versed in PageMaker indexing, as are several other people in my company. We're based in Indianapolis, so I'm not sure how this could work. My PageMaker-indexing couterparts also read this list, so maybe between us we could work something out. Johnna VanHoose Sams Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:21:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Microsoft Access Thanks to both Virginia & Mark for the Microsoft Access info. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (...changing gears after getting certified in an intensive weekend class from Solo Wilderness First Aid...) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:34:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Sumaria Systems Inc. Subject: Re: indexes and library selection >> On Fri, 09 May 97 13:59:13 EST, >> Adam.D.Klein@bender.com (Adam D. Klein) said: A> How do librarians and others feel about the importance of indexes on CD-ROM A> products? They're very important. A> Are free-text search features enough to make indexes unnecessary? Absolutely not. This question is relevant to other types of text collections, like web pages. One of the best papers I've seen on this topic can be found at http://www.pdr-is.com/infoaxcs.htm Here's the introduction: Enabling Extremely Rapid Navigation in Your Web or Document Michael Hoffman 3/21/96 This article presents information design techniques that apply to web sites, help systems, hardcopy, and online documentation. When the standard document navigation structures are provided, readers can rapidly survey the scope of a web or document and jump to the pages of greatest interest. This article explains the nature and benefits of detailed outlines and recommends that web authors provide a reasonably detailed and structured outline of their web site. Surfing the web can be speeded up greatly by loading fewer irrelevant pages and by giving users an (additional) alternative to page-by-page exploration, thus avoiding the lost-in-hyperspace syndrome. The distinctions between overviews, tables of contents, full-text searches, database keyword searches, and topical indexes are explained, to justify providing multiple approaches for the reader. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 937-255-3688 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Indexing for moms--a new book Mother's Day seems an appropriate day to mention that indexing is mention= ed as a career for moms in a new book called: The Stay-At-Home Mom's Self-Employment Guide: A Step-By-Step Guide to Mak= ing Good Money While Taking Care of Your Family=20 by Liz Folger, published by Prima Publishing, April 1997 ISBN: 0761507930 I mention this because I am the featured indexer. I have not seen the boo= k yet, nor am I promoting it here! Remembering the discussion after the Mon= ey Magazine article quoting an indexer who said he made $50,000 a year index= ing, I have only this to say: If you don't like what I said in the section on indexing, then I was obviously misquoted! If you do manage to see the boo= k, though, I would be interested in your responses. Marilyn Rowland Below is an excerpt from the author's web page describing the book (I lov= e this assortment of careers!): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I profiled 29 successful work-at-home mom=92s. They gave tips on everythi= ng from how they started their business, marketing, their challenges and how they=92ve dealt with them, how they=92ve priced their products and servic= es and much much more.=20 Craftsmaker: Lucinda Claire Macy=20 Childcare Provider: Karen Potter=20 Graphic Artist/ Desktop Publisher: Julia Tavis=20 Childbrith Instructor: Sabrina Cuddy=20 Accountant: Victoria Phillips=20 Massage Therapist: Theresa Jones=20 Alterations and Sewing: Barb Marshall=20 Tutor: Daa Mahowald=20 Upholsterer: Carrie Alhelm=20 Word Processor: Diana Ennen=20 Floral Designer: Kim Swanson-Huff=20 Telecommuter: Mary Kovoor=20 Herb Gardener: Carol Dowling=20 Freelance Photographer: Lisa Zaccagnini=20 Indexer: Marilyn Rowland=20 Caterer: Anna Marie Johansen=20 Architect: Rebecca Bostick=20 Basket Dealer: Joanne Winthrop=20 Pet-Sitter: Ann Masling=20 Greeting Card Writer: Sandra Louden=20 Nanny-Finding Service: Suzette Trimmer=20 Newsletter Publisher: Trish Kasey=20 Professional Organizer: Elaine Courtney Moskow=20 Freelance Writer and Editor: Pat Curry=20 Soapmaker: Melody Upham=20 Medical Transcriptionist: Luci Godwin=20 Quilter: Tania Osborn=20 Craftsmaker: Amy Reiss Levitt=20 Attorney: Lisa Ciancio=20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:23:21 +1000 Reply-To: keyword@ozemail.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: page numbering--heads and subheads Nancy K Humphreys said that Knight says says not to use a subheading if it can be a heading (unless you are making a cross-reference to a heading) On page 54 (in quite a long section) he says "Where a heading comprises the whole subject matter of a complete chapter ... or section ... then it is unnecessary and constitutes bad indexing (as involving a waste of space as well as savouring of classification) to use as subheadings all its subsection ... the main entry's subheadings should be confined to outside allusions to the topic in the text; these should be given the main entry's reference number only when alluded to in the main section as well." He provides a much longer sample, along the lines of Nancy's. Why don't most indexes today follow it? Because in the 18 years since publication the views of indexers, users' expectations, and standards have changed. Knight makes many pronouncements we would not agree with today, and which are in fact flatly contradicted by published national standards. -- Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills NSW 2010, Australia Phone: +61 2 9331 7764 * Fax: +61 2 9331 7785 * Email: keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:45:51 +1000 Reply-To: keyword@ozemail.com.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: Definitions of synonyms (again) I agree that Hilary Calvert's suggestion of choosing one form, with the other two as qualifiers/modifiers in parentheses is the most elegant solution. However, the cross-references only need as much information as required to lead the reader to the preferred heading (while not being misleading or puzzling)--the rest doesn't give the reader any addional useful information. caliche (duricrust, desert crust) 330, 331-332 duricrust see caliche desert crust see caliche I don't agree there is any place for a "see" cross-reference to be followed by a location reference. You're probably getting sick of me quoting BS3700, but section 2.10 says a "see" cross-reference is "a direction from a heading or subheading not followed by a location reference, to another heading that is followed by a location reference." The US standard, ANSI Z39.4 "Basic Criteria for Indexes", in section 8.1 says of "see" references "Such references guide the user from a term not used as a heading to a term that is used." I don't believe that a heading like "Jones see Smith 334" solves the problem that Hilary posed (though I'd need to know more about it to come with a better solution). -- Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills NSW 2010, Australia Phone: +61 2 9331 7764 * Fax: +61 2 9331 7785 * Email: keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 04:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Microsoft Access This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4D717CA1789D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Willa, You are most welcome. --------------4D717CA1789D Content-Type: application/msword; name="signature.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="signature.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAIQAAAAAA AAAAEAAAIwAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --------------4D717CA1789D-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:47:55 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Immaculada Mussarra Subject: Looking for indexing work in Spanish Hello to all indexers After years of lurking in the list (and learning lots of things from it) I've noticed a couple of recent posts about indexing in Spanish, prompting me to write to the list for the first time. I wonder how many of you are getting indexing jobs in Spanish, and if it would be possible to know where those jobs are coming from. I am a former librarian, and now it's four years since I decided trying to make my living out of indexing, but taking aside a major project I did two years ago and some regular work for a couple of legal periodicals, I'm not getting any indexing jobs, so now I spend most of my time creating web pages, which is not terribly exciting :-( I own both Cindex and Macrex, I attend publishers' meetings, I've done two direct mail actions targeted to local publishers, complete with follow-up calls, but most publishers here do not give much thought to indexes, leaving them to authors or completely ignoring them. In-house indexing jobs are an even more remote possibility. Therefore, I am on the verge of giving up indexing forever, but before that, maybe some of you fellow indexers here could point me to publishers and/or authors elsewhere who are contracting indexes in Spanish and/or Catalan. Thank you in advance for any assistance, from Cardedeu (near Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) -------------------------------------------------------- Immaculada Mussarra Thesaurus Serveis Documentals ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:45:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: see refs with page numbers - and Norman Knight Here are some more details of the example I gave of a `see' ref with added page numbers which I believe, when seen in context, is worth at least considering as a possibility. It came up when we were adapting Macrex for Nature (in fact Nature uses ^see under^) which, as you may know, has multi-author articles some of which have as many as 150 authors (honestly)! To put `Jones ^see^ Smith' (if Smith is a prolific author) would involve searching through all the articles where the first author was Smith to locate the one which also contained Jones (the authors are rarely in alphabetical order in the citation). Putting a page ref is just a bit of extra help to the user. Personally, I find `Jones 54 ^see^ Smith' an unsatisfactory entry because it tells you two mutually contradictory things, but `Jones ^see^ Smith 54' or possibly better `Jones ^see^ Smith (54) I would argue makes more grammatical sense and can be interpreted as `Smith - see the article by Jones on page 54' I'm not trying to pretend, however, that it should be common practice to add page numbers after `see' references, just to say that it is very rarely justifiable to have hard and fast rules in indexing. Your comment from Janet Shuter (of BS 3700 and ISO 999) appears to say the same: `The answer is ISO 999 follows BS3700 here. After that it departs from the BS by suggesting you put range locators in full e.g. 2334-2336 not 2334-6, which one committee member convinced us was more desirable as a principle, *even though I think most people would depart from it* (my emphasis).' I interpret standards as recommendations, not rules to be blindly followed. And Michael - I know BS 3700 pretty well too! You may remember that I talked about it and ISO 999 at the AusSI international conference. The talk was published in the Marysville proceedings, and was modified and published in the Indexer. On your other point - about things changing in the 18 years (is that all?) since Norman Knight's book - I wouldn't necessarily agree. I don't really believe that the idea of what is a good index has changed radically in 400 years. There is an example of an index from the 1590s (which you can see in my article in the Marysville proceedings) which is surprisingly similar to a modern index. There has been a considerable amount of discussion recently in the (UK) Society of Indexers Newsletter on just the question you mention (when a heading covers a complete chapter should individual topics within the page range of the main heading be added as subheadings under that heading). There seem to be two quite distinct and opposing views on the matter, both of them valid! Incidentally I'm Drusilla, not Hilary - sorry about the confusion - and I'm a bona fide indexer, not a programmer (which is what H is)! Drusilla Drusilla and Hilary Calvert MACREX Indexing Services Beech House, Burn Road Blaydon, Tyne & Wear NE21 6JR 0191-414 2595 (phone/fax) hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:02:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dick Luxner Subject: Week-end Humor From far away! Foreign Signs Here are some signs and notices written in English that were discovered throughout the world. You have to give the writers an 'E' for Effort. We hope you enjoy them. In a Tokyo Hotel: Is forbidden to steal hotel towels please. If you are not a person to do such a thing is please not to read notis. In a Bucharest hotel lobby: The lift is being fixed for the next day. During that time we regret that you will be unbearable. In a Leipzig elevator: Do not enter lift backwards, and only when lit up. In a Belgrade hotel elevator: To move the cabin, push button for wishing floor. If the cabin should enter more persons, each one should press a number of wishing floor. Driving is then going alphabetically by national order. In a Paris hotel elevator: Please leave your values at the front desk. In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 A.M. daily. In the lobby of a Moscow hotel across from Russian Orthodox monastery: You are welcome to visit the cemetary where famous Russian and Soviet composers, artists, and writers are buried daily except Thursday. In an Austrian hotel catering to skiers: Not to perambulate the corriders during the hours of repose in the boots of ascension. On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave you nothing to hope for. On the menu of a Polish hotel: Salad a firm's own make; limpid red beet soup with cheesy dumplings in the form of a finger; roasted duck let loose; beef rashers beaten up in the country people's fashion. In a Rhodes tailor shop: Order your summers suit. Because is big rush we will execute customers in strict rotation. From the Soviet Weekly: There will be a Moscow Exhibition of Arts by 150,000 Soviet Republic painters and sculptors. These were executed over the past two years. In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by the latest Methodists. In a Czechoslovakian tourist agency: Take one of our horse-driven city tours - we guarantee no miscarriages. In a Swiss mountain inn: Special today -- no ice cream. In a Bangkok temple: It is forbidden to enter a woman even a foreigner if dressed as a man. In a Copenhagen airline ticket office: We take your bags and send them in all directions. On the door of a Moscow hotel room: If this is your first visit to the USSR, you are welcome to it. In a Budapest zoo: Please do not feed the animals. If you have any suitable food, give it to the guard on duty. In the office of a Roman doctor: Specialist in women and other diseases. In a Tokyo shop: Our nylons cost more than common, but you'll find they are best in the long run. From a Japanese information booklet about using a hotel air conditioner: Cooles and Heates: If you want just condition of warm in your room, please control yourself. Two signs from a Mojorcan shop entrance: - English well speaking - Here speeching American. __________________________________________________ Dick Luxner, MLS - Fundraising Research Consultant PO Box 277 - Stow, Massachusetts 01775 508-562-1288 - dluxner@ma.ultranet.com Member APRA NEDRA ASIS SLA ASI ALA NENON __________________________________________________ Neither can his mind be thought to be in tune, whose words do jarre; Nor his reason in frame, whose sentence is preposterous. - Ben Jonson, 1641 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:18:04 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Definitions of synonyms (again) In-Reply-To: <199705120528.WAA04909@dns1.mcn.org> Michael wrote: >I agree that Hilary Calvert's suggestion of choosing one form, with the >other two as qualifiers/modifiers in parentheses is the most elegant >solution. However, the cross-references only need as much information as >required to lead the reader to the preferred heading (while not being >misleading or puzzling)--the rest doesn't give the reader any addional >useful information. >caliche (duricrust, desert crust) 330, 331-332 >duricrust see caliche >desert crust see caliche Actually, some presses require that all cross references be exact, complete duplicates of the destination head. However, since I am in control of these issues at the press I'm with for this book, I have shortened some, such as cross-references from acronyms: GCMS. See Gas Chromatograph-Mass Spectrometer instead of: GCMS. See Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectrometer (GCMS) I welcomed Drusilla (not Hilary) Calvert's suggestion of the synonyms in parentheses. I try to avoid parenthetical statements unless it is necessary for identification, but it's a great solution to my problem and I plan to use it. I received a private communication, however, which calls into question the use of these as synonyms, so even though the terms are defined as such by the author in the text, I'm going to query him by phone (necessary because it's a central question to the index--I get reimbursed for my calls by the publisher). >I don't agree there is any place for a "see" cross-reference to be >followed by a location reference. You may not remember my earlier posts on this subject, but I do work for a textbook publisher in which certain (other) circumstances require me to do just that. I use the form: Main entry, 224. See cross-reference text >You're probably getting sick of me >quoting BS3700, but section 2.10 says... >The US standard, ANSI Z39.4 "Basic Criteria for Indexes", ...[says] What I am aware of is that respected authorities in indexing do not all agree that the standards that have been developed are, in fact, universally good. And indexing practice forbids adherence to the standard in many cases. For instance, no publisher I work for would allow me to send them an index that had no punctuation between the entry text and the page locators, yet the version of the ANSI standard that I own makes that absence the standard. Indexing is an art, which means that there is no one correct solution to many of the issues raised in its practice. Of course I am aware that it is generally agreed that See references do not take page locators. The discussion, though, is about whether there may not be other indications for its use beyond the dictates of textbook publishers. In this case, I think the parenthetical comments solve the problem most elegantly, but who is to say that there might not be a problem that could best be solved by breaking a rule? Which, I will stress, indexing ^practice^ sometimes requires. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 06:56:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Editor's desk I am same as Barbara. The desk area under the Levenger desk is also available for storage--actually adding to usable desk area. I did need help and luck with the "special" screws supplied for assembly. The 800 help line in my observation (and with no rancor) is only for sales questions. At 12:51 PM 5/11/97 -0400, you wrote: >I have the larger Levenger's desk, and I love it (esp. for those large page >proofs). > >I also have the plastic "cover" sheet, so I can put my to do lists and crib >sheets under it (like the Cindex commands for foreign accents--I prefer to >search there than on the help screens)... > >Another 2 cents. > >Barbara > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:10:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: indexes and library selection Adam D. Klein wrote: > > Hi everyone - > > How do librarians and others feel about the importance of indexes on > CD-ROM products? Are free-text search features enough to make indexes > unnecessary? Thanks. > No, they're absolutely not enough. The standard example is from newspaper stories: a story in the sports section about a golf championship match may not even include the word "golf." Or take our own statutory indexes: the public may know a particular provision of law by a popular name that doesn't appear in the text and has to be supplied by an indexer who follows the news carefully just to pick up such terms. (A familiar Minnesota example is the Dimmler amendment, a little provision of the traffic laws that says certain speeding violations don't go on your driving record.) In general people who are very close to the text and able to compose very accurate word searches will do okay with free-text searching, but everybody else needs an index--and that's most of us. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 08:48:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: master index, updating In-Reply-To: <199705112017.NAA03926@mx2.u.washington.edu> It's the Office Group at MS that won't use Word for indexing. Isn't inserting RD fields a lot more work? Sounds like double trouble. Please elaborate. I should add that the problems I had in using PageMaker were with texts with inserted Big5 code (Chinese). There are, in any case, major problems with the PostScript drivers of Win 95 (I get an error code when I attempt to install the PS driver that comes with PM). Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:12:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: biographies I just finished my first index of a biographical book and another biography is on its way to me. Help. Would anyone be able to send me a copy of Hazel Bell's articles from "The Indexer"? I plan to order her booklet "Indexing biographies and other stories of human lives," but that may take awhile to get here. April 1989 "Indexing Biographies: Lives Do Bring Their Problems" pp168-72 April 1990 "Indexing Biographies: The Main Character" pp43-44 Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing 1862 Tenaya Ave. Clovis, CA 93611 (209) 322-2145 indexer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:33:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: Statutory indexing Maryann Corbett wrote: "Or take our own statutory indexes: the public may know a particular provision of law by a popular name that doesn't appear in the text and has to be supplied by an indexer who follows the news carefully just to pick up such terms." Absolutely! I am an in-house law publication indexer, and we cannot put enough emphasis on the fact that statutory language just isn't enough to go on to find just about any provision of law, even in a good keyword search program (or should I say especially in a good keyword search program?). By the way, I'm new to this service and I've really enjoyed reading about indexing issues and concerns. To add my two cents about whether back-of-the-book indexes are necessary, let me say that even before I began indexing, I never purchased a nonfiction book from a bookstore without perusing the index first! Janice Coffield, looking forward to meeting you in Winston-Salem this week! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing for moms--a new book Marilyn, can you post the URL for the author's website? Thanks, Neva < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS njsmith@bga.com DataSmiths Information Services voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:30:39 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Haynes Subject: Re: PageMaker training? At 07:19 PM 5/11/97 +0000, you wrote: >Richard Evans wrote: >> >> Does anyone know a source of PageMaker training, preferably one conducted >> by someone who knows indexing? Is there anyone out there who is proficient >> in creating indexes with PageMaker who would be willing to conduct >> one-on-one training? I would be willing to travel and pay for the service. >> >Ann Norcross wrote: >>I am *very* interested in this, too. I would like to learn from someone >>who 1) indexes and 2) uses PageMaker a lot. Please respond to the list, >>or to me and I will summarize responses for others who are interested. > >>Thanks! > I am an indexer in Baltimore, MD. I have used PageMaker 5.0 for several years now for many projects, including the layout of a magazine that I published. I also have a great deal of experience teaching software packages, including PageMaker. I have not used PageMaker for Indexing because I like the other tools I am using, however, I would know how to do so and could teach all aspects of PageMaker. If the locale is convenient for anyone, you can respond to me offline at CGHaynes@worldnet.att.net. Thanks. Chris Haynes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:25:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Rowland Subject: Re: Indexing for moms--a new book In a message dated 97-05-12 15:36:08 EDT, you write: << can you post the URL for the author's website? Thanks, Neva >> Sure, Neva, the author's site is: http://www.snowcrest.net/folger/ The page that discusses this book is: http://www.snowcrest.net/folger/book.html Cheers, Marilyn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:14:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Book In-Reply-To: <199705101411.AA29078@world.std.com> Marilyn - Will you please post the name, author, and publisher of the Working Moms at Home book again? I thought I'd saved your e-mail but now I can't find it. Thanks, Sarah Lemaire ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: master index, updating In a message dated 97-05-12 12:24:45 EDT, you write: > > It's the Office Group at MS that won't use Word for indexing. Isn't > inserting RD fields a lot more work? Sounds like double trouble. Please > elaborate. I should add that the problems I had in using PageMaker were > with texts with inserted Big5 code (Chinese). There are, in any case, > major problems with the PostScript drivers of Win 95 (I get an error code > when I attempt to install the PS driver that comes with PM). Paul D. Buell > I've never worked for the Office Group, so I don't know what they do. Publisher group used Word, as does Works, and several hardware-related and SDK groups. They mostly use the in-house tagged indexing system to put the embedded codes in the Word files. Several other groups do too -- it's interesting who does and who doesn't! Of all groups, the Office Group should be FORCED to use the thing so that they improve it! Inserting RD fields is extremely easy. They are simply a list of files that Word then goes and pulls the indexing out of. They look like {RD "File.doc"} (defined as a field and hidden text -- they are available when you choose "Insert Field"). That's all. You type the file names in, then choose "Insert Index," and you are on. There is a newer PostScript driver that should solve your problems with PM 6. I think it is called ADOBEPS4.DRV, and should be available on installation CDs or Adobe's Web site. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: indexes on publisher's web site I received an ad in the mail yesterday from Arkansas Research, a publisher of specialized genealogy books, which mentioned an interesting use of their web site--publication of the actual indexes of books as a way to help potential customers decide if a particular book was attractive enough to buy. The books this company sells are very specialized; usually the only chance a potential customer has to actually view a book is at a regional or national genealogy conference. This web site is not particularly sophisticated, but I think they've got a good idea and carried it out well. I don't think they are giving anything away (in terms of lost sales because potential customers can get something free that they might otherwise pay for). At relatively little cost, they are providing a means for customers to evaluate the worth to them of a book (compared to including similar information in a printed brochure or catalog). And of course, the members of INDEX-L will cheer the implicit recognition of the value of book indexes. The URL for the site is http://biz.ipa.net/arkresearch . If you aren't particularly interested in genealogy but would like to see how this small company has set up their web site to make indexes available, go directly to the URL http://biz.ipa.net/arkresearch/desco.html to see a sample. Rollie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:50:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: master index, updating Paul, I use Pagemaker for doing newsletters on a regular basis and have had no difficulty with the postscript drivers in 6.5. 6.0 was another story!!. If you haven't upgraded it is probably worth your while to do so. Also check the postscript printer options box and be sure to enable the true type font feature. Your chinese characters may not be available to the printer as postscript. Hope this helps. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:23:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: biographies Indexers are terrific people. Thank you to Craig and Trisha who called this morning and are sending me the Hazel Bell articles and book on indexing biographies.. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:13:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: master index, updating In-Reply-To: <199705122341.QAA05045@mx3.u.washington.edu> Jan: thanks for the useful information. Yes, logically, the people who inflict Word on the world should be forced to use it, warts and all..however. Note that my remarks do not apply to Word97, the master document feature of which is said to work (alas it uses a different file standard, making it incompatable with Word 6.0/7.0 files). Incidentally, among the features of Word which do not work very well are the file converters. Indexing codes inserted in a Mac version of Word did not convert correctly in all cases when I switched to a PC version of Word whereas logically one would expect them to. Moral of the story, whichever version of Word you use for indexing and whatever the platform, don't try to convert. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:21:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: indexing and PostScript problems, TwinBridge In-Reply-To: <199705131351.GAA12849@mx5.u.washington.edu> The TwinBridge characters (Big5) are True Type and work fine with Postscript files for Win 3.11 using the generic driver (provided one is willing to accept 300 dpi only) but they refuse to download properly (or at all) into Win95 PostScript files from Word, although they at least work partially with PM 6.0. I spent hours on the phone with the TwinBridge people but they were unhelpful and after a while stopped replying. I think the problem lies in TwinBridge, which makes any MicroSoft product look absolutely bug-free by comparison. They do have PostScript Big5 fonts available but after past unpleasant experiences I have refused to shell out for them. Ain't programs wonderful. Question to the list: anyone using LINUX out there? Are there any tools for indexing for this platform or for UNIX that anyone is using and can recommend? Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: one flooded indexer When I was stuffing envelopes to mail ballots for the Twin Cities ASI chapter officers, my eye fell on one address that now meant more to me than it used to. ASI member Theresa Zeller Warmus lives--or lived--in East Grand Forks, Minnesota, another flooded-out town. I'm at a loss to know how we can help her, or even contact her, at this stage. Chances are if she had a computer, it's history. She'll be juggling disaster relief and insurance claims trying to get back on her feet. I just felt I had to mention this to a group of people who will sympathize. Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:02:08 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Definitions of synonyms (again) In-Reply-To: <199705121352.GAA03921@dns1.mcn.org> One last update on this thread: I wrote that the author of a book on Mars had defined duricrust, desert crust, and caliche as synonyms. I received a private email forwarded from someone else writing a book on Mars that in fact they were not synonyms. I talked to the author, and that is exactly his point. When the science powers that be determined, following the Viking Mission in the seventies, that there was no evidence for (microorganismic) life on Mars, the word duricrust was coined to name a phenomenon on Mars which resembled caliche in every other way. But, here on Earth, caliche is formed by microorganisms. So here it is in fact central to the author's thesis that these words are synonyms, because of the evidence that there is life on Mars (his thesis is also that this evidence was suppressed, and it's pretty convincing, btw). Point for us indexers is--follow the text. Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:05:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: New web site Hello, Linda-- You will never speak to me again, but here are my unfortunately extensive comments on your shiny new Web site. I am reminded of a recent incident where I asked a friend to review a two-page essay for me. Her comments were startling, but of course correct: I had not known that she was an experienced journalist and editor! Surprising. Here are a few general comments, followed by ones specific to each page. I have only looked at your page with Netscape Navigator 3.0; you should test it on several other browsers such as Microsoft Explorer, and DosLynx. [HOME] My first impression is good: the homepage is almost TOO simple, without excessive typography or too many colors, animation, or sound. I like the starfield background. Unfortunately cyan on a color monitor looks, to my eyes, sick and bilious and I would prefer almost any other color. And the background, also, is coming up cyan; white is more appropriate. "Professional" is misspelled. I would cut "providing"; it's redundant. This page is a bit too much like an essay rather than an advertisement. There is no "hook" for the reader's eye. Somehow emphasize PRINT and ONLINE products, I think, and perhaps use bulleted entries for TYPES of material you handle (subjects, that is). They are certainly handy, but I don't see the reason for links on the professional societies. Index Information Pages. This is where things get a little clunky; the essay is showing again. Don't LIST your pages, LINK to them: use pushbuttons or highlighted text. Indeed, a couple of the references are incorrect [see later note] and one is actually redundant. Clients. Either link all of these entries or link none; only the first one was active when I tested the site earlier today. The same question arises, for me at least: why the link at all? Much better to have some reviews or appraisals or thankyous. [Editorial Services Survey] This page is not needed; it provides no new information and is repetitive. In fact, it's wrong; it is linked from the homepage as the Survey, except the Survey is a *different* page. [Survey] Too raw! The black type on plain white background glares. Try adding a little background texture, if nothing else. The typography is a little clunky, and having the "ZIP" data box offset to the right looks odd. Do the window boxes need scroll bars when there is nothing to scroll? BEWARE: if you leave "companys" like that no-one will ever hire your service. Adding a button would be a nice touch. [Project Quotes] We have become I, I see. The mode of address has changed, which seems a bit odd. All this information really should be in a FAQS page, I think, not in this chatty delivery. And putting it all into an actual FORM to fill out would be silly. [Index Preparation] This is incorrectly linked on the homepage as "Preparation Time". Probably the best written text, even though I haven't read it carefully. Very informative. With one or more links to the FAQS page I mentioned above, the whole thing would tie together nicely without overwhelming or boring the reader. [Project Mail-In Form] This one is as unfinished, I am sorry to say, as the previous page appeared well done. In general very crude-looking. Random type sizes and placement. Shouldn't the phrase be "Tell us about yourself"? This cannot be e-mailed since it has no hotspots for data entry and no button. Here are a couple of interesting sites. I'm not suggesting that you use these as models; they just have design elements that I wanted to point out. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/BK_Resource/inf.htm [good background and cute animation] http://www.folkart.com/background/~latitude/latitude.htm [subtle background] http://www.linkexchange.com/ [seems to be a good promotional site with useful links] Hope my comments have been of some use. They certainly have been offered with compassion. Cheers and Good Luck, Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:26:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Mea maxima Culpa Everybody--Yes, I had meant to send Linda's note privately. It's hard to be good when your stupid. My apologies to all. Dave T. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:26:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deann Birkle Subject: INDEXING SOFTWARE & HI Hi, I am new to indexing and to this list. There has been some discussion about what software works for indexing and what does not, but the ones I am curious about are Macrex ($495 without a discount), Cindex, wINDEX ($129) and HyperIndex ($75). Other than you get what you pay for, can anyone tell me which software you use and the pros and cons of the system? I have a PC not MAC. And thanks in advance for you input. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:58:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Timekeeping Program A week or so ago I posted a message to the list about a time tracking and reporting/invoicing program that I wrote and distributed as Shareware a number of years ago. I offered to send copies to anyone interested if they sent return postage, formatted disk and mailer. To those of you who already requested a copy, I took a few days to update some information in the file and then recompile. I will make an exception (which expires now) for those of you who sent postage but no mailer - just an envelope and I am mailing the program tomorrow. In the future, though, if anyone else wants to try a copy, PLEASE send a formatted disk (DOS), a mailer to hold the disk, and sufficient return postage to cover both ($.55 usually does it unless your mailer is larger). If you omit any of the above, I'm sorry, but I don't have the time nor want to spend the money supplying mailing supplies for you. Sorry if that sounds harsh. But remember, this is SHAREWARE - I don't receive anything for it unless you use the program and wish to register it. It is copyrighted, however and can not be resold. If you have questions about using the program, send me e-mail. Ten years ago there were a number of people who registered and used the program so I know it works OK. I've tested it running under Windows 95 (in MS-DOS window) and had no problems. Again, harking back to the SHAREWARE concept, don't expect much enthusiasm about extensive support for non-registered producs. Charles Anderon c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: vmchenry@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Virginia G. McHenry" Organization: Exceptional Results, Inc. Subject: Re: Mea maxima Culpa Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: > > Everybody--Yes, I had meant to send Linda's note privately. > > It's hard to be good when your stupid. My apologies to all. > > Dave T. Selfishly I am glad you didn't because I am working on a web page now too and you have some wonderful pointers so that I won't make the same mistakes - I can make new ones!!!! Linda, you are very brave to share your work with everyone. I pray no one looks at mine till I have somehow made it perfect! Just the way I do my non-fiction writing! I remain unpublished!! Ginny M.