From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 12-AUG-1997 14:54:31.89 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706C" Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 14:32:54 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9706C" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:55:39 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Computer system data backups for disasters - and Life andTime Philosophy 101. Greetings, Kam and all: You're right about the advantages of a speedy hard drive to back everything up, but in no way is my Ditto drive and its program more difficult to work with than a hard drive. May I add to your advice by suggesting, in addition, _differential_ backups on that hard drive or even a floppy or a tape? This means of course that in addition to a full "mirror" backup every day or so, you might want to schedule tiny additional backups to the HD or to a floppy several times a day. These capture those files changed or added even more recently than the last _full_ backup. These differential backups take very little time and ensure that you have backups of new work even sooner than waiting until 5 P.M. or whenever. Of course you will want to experiment with restoring from your backup media to your usual hard drive regularly to be sure you're actually _capturing_ that data. Too many end-users have been shocked to find, after years of this data backup effort, they had no data on the tape or drive (when they desperately needed it) because the backup procedures had been set up incorrectly years earlier, or the equipment had failed, or the heads were dirty etc. Yes, I heartily agree with the importance of portability in your backup medium. This is why I would have the tape drive do a complete "mirror" of the usual hard drive (covering all programs and data including config files and autoexac.bat files etc.) _each day_ or so. The frequency would depend on how quickly the small differential backups grew to be unwieldy. Then I'd carry both out of the office. The Ditto tape, for example, is so tiny that you can slip it into a pocket or very small bag as you leave the office. Use at least three tapes in sequence: child, parent and grandparent. This full backup can be done while you are still working at your machine without slowing down your work much, if at all. It might take an hour or so. You could also schedule the mirror backup for very early morning or over the lunch hour. Then, conceivably, you could add a differenital back to that same tape just as you finally finish for the day. Of course this portability protects us from theft of entire computers, as well as fires and floods. Sounds like overkill, I suppose. In the event of a big loss insurance might pay for a nice new machine and conceivably, even the fees and wages of those who need to rebuild the system. But the _time_ we ourselves would spend (as opposed to our money) on the recovery from such a disaster is _irretrievably_ lost. It would come from that one account to which we, rich or poor, can make no "deposits." DRA Kamm Y. Schreiner wrote: > > Hi, > > I would like to recommend that Pam try adding a second hard drive to her > computer. Hard drives are dirt cheap nowadays. Cheaper per megabyte than > the Zip drives are and are MUCH easier to work with than tape drives. > > I have a second hard drive with which I use MS Plus! scheduling software to > backup all of my data files every day at 5PM. The process takes about 30 > seconds and I never have to worry about losing more than one days work. Of > course I could have it backed up more frequently if I want to. Because the > drive is physically separate from the original drive I don't have to worry > that if the main drive goes bad that what I have backed up will be lost > also. And restoring files is simply a matter of using the copy command or a > couple of mouse clicks. > > The only thing lost is portability. The drive can't be removed. However, I > have seen devices that allow you to plug a 3.5" hard drive into a 5.25" > slot. Sorry, I can't remember where. Anyway, I use a tape backup once a > month so that I can store the tape in a completely different location (in > case of fire, etc.). > > These days the total cost of a 2 gig hard drive and a tape backup to match > will probably amount to between $400 and $500 dollars. I use Western > Digital hard drives which I have found to be quite, fast, reliable and have > a three year "manufacturers warranty". > > Thank goodness I have never had a hard drive fail on me, but I have > accidentally erased files from time to time and thanked God that I had the > backup. > > Hope all of the info you have been getting from the list is helping Pam. > > Kamm Schreiner > President > > SKY Software > 4675 York Rd #1 > Manchester, MD 21102 > > email: kamm@sky-software.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: davidaus@indiana.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Service Contracts I'd say this was a much better service contract than most . . . Linda Fetters wrote: > > Although I agree that service contracts can sometimes be worthless (just > like insurance policies), they can also occasionally payoff in a big > way. > > We had one of those Brother multifunction printer/copier/fax/scan > machines that we bought from a large computer chain store. When it broke > down, we took it in and had it repaired. The second time it broke down > (this was all in a period of 12-18 months), they sent it off to be > repaired but were told that it would cost more to repair than it was > worth. > > We were offered another Brother multifunction machine as a replacement, > but we didn't want another one of those. We ended up with a new > Hewlett-Packard color copier/printer (Copyjet), all for the price of the > original service contract. > > Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:21:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Ergonomics: When a contractor is told....... Greetings David: In the past two years, I've had two long-term contract projects and one part-time permanent job. The part-time permanent job, amazingly enough, will cover expenses for ergonomic items (such as a mouse and keyboard) but the two companies for which I contracted, would not. That is always an issue that I ask about up front when I am negotiating a long-term contract. I'm not quite sure what the reason is why they would not consider doing it, but purchasing ergonomic equipment for contract workers does not seem to be an item that can be negotiated. In both cases, I was told to purchase my own ergonomic equipment. I guess that's one of the negative aspects of being a freelancer? Thanks for your comments. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Happy Father's Day....) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Thanks: Zip drive problems I have considered my Zip drive as another hard drive. I really don't understand why another hard drive on the same computer would be ideal for backups. One reason I do backups is to protect against system failures or a mega-erase-stealth virus. Having the removable Zips helps keep me mentally healthy. I HAVE considered Ditto--I have a 1.3 Mb--but an hour backing up to Zips Friday evenings or Saturday mornings is not too much. I do differential backups to a zip disk midday and evening each day. We all have different comfort levels. My system suits me. Thanks to all who have responded. The additional service contract info is interesting to me. I am a clone user who has mainly gotten and followed the no-service-contract route with no massive regrets. I still think the Zip drive should be repairable (it's not software--all my disks get eaten and need to be specially released for return), but the world is wasteful. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:04:27 -0700 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Need pointers on breaking in Hi everyone... This is my first message to the group. I've been "subscribed" for a short while and have been quietly absorbing the group correspondence. I feel brave enough now to test the waters... I'm trying to leave the corporate grind and have, through a really serendipitous set of circumstances, chanced upon indexing as a career. I manage programmers, educators and project managers now but in a former life I was a programmer (who also wrote quite comprehensive technical documents WITH indexes) as part of my job. I've already purchased and read Nancy Mulvany's book on indexing. I also have the Chicago Manual of Style. I've visited ASI website and puttered around the sites of indexers on the web. I was signed up for an indexing class (to be taught by Lori Lathrop) but it was cancelled. To feel grounded and aware of the basics, I really want to get some additional training. I'm considering the two indexing classes that USDA has to offer. (Anyone out there go through them? Would you like to give me your postmortem on the whole deal? Is it worth it? If you're uncomfortable responding in a public forum - or if it's not "done" that way - please email me directly). I also serve as a trustee for our public library. At a recent trustee retreat, I happened to engage in luncheon conversation with a director of another library in our state. He was sadly in need of an indexer but couldn't pay any money. I didn't let the grass grow under my feet in volunteering to undertake the project for free. From what I've learned in my readings to date, it's extremely important to build up your portfolio and I think that volunteering to help out the library will serve multiple purposes, the least of which is to provide me with some more bonafide work completed. Any comments on how you started? Any other recommendations? I am also extremely interested in purchasing indexing software. It appears that MACREX or CINDEX are the two main packages. I'd be interested in hearing feedback on whether there are gotchas in either, if there is a clear market leader, etc. You can email me directly also on this issue. Sorry this is so long. I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep. But, now that the floodwaters have broken, there's a lot to get out. From my "listening" you all seem to be a very professional and helpful bunch of people. Glad to make your acquaintance! Lucie Haskins LucieH@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:25:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zip drive In a message dated 97-06-13 19:33:53 EDT, Larry B. wrote: > > With a $150 drive, if you're paying $50 for diagnostics, that's a third of > the > cost. If you find you need a $10 part, cool. If not, you may kick yourself > for > not just going out and buying a new one. > Great point, Larry. When I was in the Navy, we called the first situation "beyond economical repair". I think another thing to be considered in the cost of repairing a piece of equipment is that of shipping it to the manufacturer (and possibly insuring it). Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:25:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Virus checkers In a message dated 97-06-13 20:08:23 EDT, you write: > Yes, MS has a free anti-macro virus fix and Word97 has it built it. I > remember well the day that Gates got one (a virus that is) in his computer > and shazaam, let there be a fix..., within about two weeks as I remember. > Now if they fixed the bugs in their software like that .... Paul D. Buell > Hmmm. Now, if only we could somehow get Bill Gates to try his hand at embedding an index in Word. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:39:59 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: botanical names In-Reply-To: <199706090653.XAA19090@dns1.mcn.org> Thank you all for your helpful responses to my recent questions. The complexities of the work (in truth some of which could have been fixed through editing--but let's not dwell on such ignominies ) eventually demanded that I find many solutions to variations of the problems I talked about in my posts. All of your input helped me to do that. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:27:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Jim Wilson Subject: Northern California Hello list-friends; I am interested in finding an indexers group in the northern California or Bay area that holds regular/semi-regular meetings and functions. Being new to this industry, I have not yet joind a local group. Your help is appreciated, Jim Wilson Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:01:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706111246.FAA07338@mail5.netcom.com> I just found this site on the web that might help Ergoweb http://www.ergoweb.com I use a glidepad and do find it easier to use than a mouse. Roberta roberta@netcom.com On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:02:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Non-Delivery of:INDEX-L Digest - 14 Jun 1997 to 15 Jun 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 400 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Computer system data backups for disasters - and Life andTime Philosophy 101. 2. Service Contracts 3. Ergonomics: When a contractor is told....... 4. Thanks: Zip drive problems 5. Need pointers on breaking in 6. Zip drive 7. Virus checkers 8. botanical names 9. Northern California 10. Ergonomics--again! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:55:39 -0500 From: david robert austen Subject: Computer system data backups for disasters - and Life andTime Philosophy 101. Greetings, Kam and all: You're right about the advantages of a speedy hard drive to back everything up, but in no way is my Ditto drive and its program more difficult to work with than a hard drive. May I add to your advice by suggesting, in addition, _differential_ backups on that hard drive or even a floppy or a tape? This means of course that in addition to a full "mirror" backup every day or so, you might want to schedule tiny additional backups to the HD or to a floppy several times a day. These capture those files changed or added even more recently than the last _full_ backup. These differential backups take very little time and ensure that you have backups of new work even sooner than waiting until 5 P.M. or whenever. Of course you will want to experiment with restoring from your backup media to your usual hard drive regularly to be sure you're actually _capturing_ that data. Too many end-users have been shocked to find, after years of this data backup effort, they had no data on the tape or drive (when they desperately needed it) because the backup procedures had been set up incorrectly years earlier, or the equipment had failed, or the heads were dirty etc. Yes, I heartily agree with the importance of portability in your backup medium. This is why I would have the tape drive do a complete "mirror" of the usual hard drive (covering all programs and data including config files and autoexac.bat files etc.) _each day_ or so. The frequency would depend on how quickly the small differential backups grew to be unwieldy. Then I'd carry both out of the office. The Ditto tape, for example, is so tiny that you can slip it into a pocket or very small bag as you leave the office. Use at least three tapes in sequence: child, parent and grandparent. This full backup can be done while you are still working at your machine without slowing down your work much, if at all. It might take an hour or so. You could also schedule the mirror backup for very early morning or over the lunch hour. Then, conceivably, you could add a differenital back to that same tape just as you finally finish for the day. Of course this portability protects us from theft of entire computers, as well as fires and floods. Sounds like overkill, I suppose. In the event of a big loss insurance might pay for a nice new machine and conceivably, even the fees and wages of those who need to rebuild the system. But the _time_ we ourselves would spend (as opposed to our money) on the recovery from such a disaster is _irretrievably_ lost. It would come from that one account to which we, rich or poor, can make no "deposits." DRA Kamm Y. Schreiner wrote: > > Hi, > > I would like to recommend that Pam try adding a second hard drive to her > computer. Hard drives are dirt cheap nowadays. Cheaper per megabyte than > the Zip drives are and are MUCH easier to work with than tape drives. > > I have a second hard drive with which I use MS Plus! scheduling software to > backup all of my data files every day at 5PM. The process takes about 30 > seconds and I never have to worry about losing more than one days work. Of > course I could have it backed up more frequently if I want to. Because the > drive is physically separate from the original drive I don't have to worry > that if the main drive goes bad that what I have backed up will be lost > also. And restoring files is simply a matter of using the copy command or a > couple of mouse clicks. > > The only thing lost is portability. The drive can't be removed. However, I > have seen devices that allow you to plug a 3.5" hard drive into a 5.25" > slot. Sorry, I can't remember where. Anyway, I use a tape backup once a > month so that I can store the tape in a completely different location (in > case of fire, etc.). > > These days the total cost of a 2 gig hard drive and a tape backup to match > will probably amount to between $400 and $500 dollars. I use Western > Digital hard drives which I have found to be quite, fast, reliable and have > a three year "manufacturers warranty". > > Thank goodness I have never had a hard drive fail on me, but I have > accidentally erased files from time to time and thanked God that I had the > backup. > > Hope all of the info you have been getting from the list is helping Pam. > > Kamm Schreiner > President > > SKY Software > 4675 York Rd #1 > Manchester, MD 21102 > > email: kamm@sky-software.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 06:53:44 -0500 From: david robert austen Subject: Re: Service Contracts I'd say this was a much better service contract than most . . . Linda Fetters wrote: > > Although I agree that service contracts can sometimes be worthless (just > like insurance policies), they can also occasionally payoff in a big > way. > > We had one of those Brother multifunction printer/copier/fax/scan > machines that we bought from a large computer chain store. When it broke > down, we took it in and had it repaired. The second time it broke down > (this was all in a period of 12-18 months), they sent it off to be > repaired but were told that it would cost more to repair than it was > worth. > > We were offered another Brother multifunction machine as a replacement, > but we didn't want another one of those. We ended up with a new > Hewlett-Packard color copier/printer (Copyjet), all for the price of the > original service contract. > > Linda Fetters ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:21:49 -0700 From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Ergonomics: When a contractor is told....... Greetings David: In the past two years, I've had two long-term contract projects and one part-time permanent job. The part-time permanent job, amazingly enough, will cover expenses for ergonomic items (such as a mouse and keyboard) but the two companies for which I contracted, would not. That is always an issue that I ask about up front when I am negotiating a long-term contract. I'm not quite sure what the reason is why they would not consider doing it, but purchasing ergonomic equipment for contract workers does not seem to be an item that can be negotiated. In both cases, I was told to purchase my own ergonomic equipment. I guess that's one of the negative aspects of being a freelancer? Thanks for your comments. Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net (Happy Father's Day....) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 07:02:32 -0700 From: Pam Rider Subject: Thanks: Zip drive problems I have considered my Zip drive as another hard drive. I really don't understand why another hard drive on the same computer would be ideal for backups. One reason I do backups is to protect against system failures or a mega-erase-stealth virus. Having the removable Zips helps keep me mentally healthy. I HAVE considered Ditto--I have a 1.3 Mb--but an hour backing up to Zips Friday evenings or Saturday mornings is not too much. I do differential backups to a zip disk midday and evening each day. We all have different comfort levels. My system suits me. Thanks to all who have responded. The additional service contract info is interesting to me. I am a clone user who has mainly gotten and followed the no-service-contract route with no massive regrets. I still think the Zip drive should be repairable (it's not software--all my disks get eaten and need to be specially released for return), but the world is wasteful. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:04:27 -0700 From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Need pointers on breaking in Hi everyone... This is my first message to the group. I've been "subscribed" for a short while and have been quietly absorbing the group correspondence. I feel brave enough now to test the waters... I'm trying to leave the corporate grind and have, through a really serendipitous set of circumstances, chanced upon indexing as a career. I manage programmers, educators and project managers now but in a former life I was a programmer (who also wrote quite comprehensive technical documents WITH indexes) as part of my job. I've already purchased and read Nancy Mulvany's book on indexing. I also have the Chicago Manual of Style. I've visited ASI website and puttered around the sites of indexers on the web. I was signed up for an indexing class (to be taught by Lori Lathrop) but it was cancelled. To feel grounded and aware of the basics, I really want to get some additional training. I'm considering the two indexing classes that USDA has to offer. (Anyone out there go through them? Would you like to give me your postmortem on the whole deal? Is it worth it? If you're uncomfortable responding in a public forum - or if it's not "done" that way - please email me directly). I also serve as a trustee for our public library. At a recent trustee retreat, I happened to engage in luncheon conversation with a director of another library in our state. He was sadly in need of an indexer but couldn't pay any money. I didn't let the grass grow under my feet in volunteering to undertake the project for free. From what I've learned in my readings to date, it's extremely important to build up your portfolio and I think that volunteering to help out the library will serve multiple purposes, the least of which is to provide me with some more bonafide work completed. Any comments on how you started? Any other recommendations? I am also extremely interested in purchasing indexing software. It appears that MACREX or CINDEX are the two main packages. I'd be interested in hearing feedback on whether there are gotchas in either, if there is a clear market leader, etc. You can email me directly also on this issue. Sorry this is so long. I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep. But, now that the floodwaters have broken, there's a lot to get out. From my "listening" you all seem to be a very professional and helpful bunch of people. Glad to make your acquaintance! Lucie Haskins LucieH@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:25:38 -0400 From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Zip drive In a message dated 97-06-13 19:33:53 EDT, Larry B. wrote: > > With a $150 drive, if you're paying $50 for diagnostics, that's a third of > the > cost. If you find you need a $10 part, cool. If not, you may kick yourself > for > not just going out and buying a new one. > Great point, Larry. When I was in the Navy, we called the first situation "beyond economical repair". I think another thing to be considered in the cost of repairing a piece of equipment is that of shipping it to the manufacturer (and possibly insuring it). Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:25:41 -0400 From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Virus checkers In a message dated 97-06-13 20:08:23 EDT, you write: > Yes, MS has a free anti-macro virus fix and Word97 has it built it. I > remember well the day that Gates got one (a virus that is) in his computer > and shazaam, let there be a fix..., within about two weeks as I remember. > Now if they fixed the bugs in their software like that .... Paul D. Buell > Hmmm. Now, if only we could somehow get Bill Gates to try his hand at embedding an index in Word. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:39:59 LCL From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: botanical names Thank you all for your helpful responses to my recent questions. The complexities of the work (in truth some of which could have been fixed through editing--but let's not dwell on such ignominies ) eventually demanded that I find many solutions to variations of the problems I talked about in my posts. All of your input helped me to do that. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:27:47 +0000 From: Jim Wilson Subject: Northern California Hello list-friends; I am interested in finding an indexers group in the northern California or Bay area that holds regular/semi-regular meetings and functions. Being new to this industry, I have not yet joind a local group. Your help is appreciated, Jim Wilson Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... but three lefts do! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:01:05 -0700 From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! I just found this site on the web that might help Ergoweb http://www.ergoweb.com I use a glidepad and do find it easier to use than a mouse. Roberta roberta@netcom.com On Wed, 11 Jun 1997, Susan Healy wrote: > Some of you may hate to see this subject come up again, but I need some > help and suggestions. > > Two weeks ago my husband had to take me to the ER in the middle of the > night because of overwhelming pain in my shoulder, arm, and hand. My > fingers were numb, I could not open or close my hand, and my arm was like > lead. The pain was so severe that I was naseous and could not speak. > > Well, those of you who have had this problem recognize these symptoms--I > have a herniated cervical disc (C5/6). The past two weeks have been spent > at home, in bed on steroids, muscle relaxers, and pain killers. The pain > is much improved, but my thumb and forefinger are still numb and I have a > lot of tightness across my shoulders. I'll be starting physical therapy > and massage therapy and continuing with anti-inflammatories. > > The one thing that really seems to exacerbate this is typing and using the > mouse. I'm an inhouse indexer (Florida Legislature) so I've had the > luxury so far of staying home without loss of income, but I do have to > return to work and pretty soon. I will also be able to ask for some > ergonomic assistance to avoid syptoms. Muscle tension and spasms increase > inflammation around the trapped nerve and that causes more muscle tension > and spasms and more pain and loss of function. > > So, my questions are: > > 1. Are any of you using any of the so-called ergonomic keyboards and what > do you think of them? > 2. What about glidepad instead of a mouse? > 3. Any hints for work habits? > 4. Any other furniture or hardware suggestions? > > My current office furniture includes a standard wooden executive type desk > with large, metal compuer desk (recessed keyboard well) placed at right > angles. My computer is desktop stle, so monitor is sitting up pretty > high. I have flat work surface on either side of the pc. My chair is new > executive type designed for mixed desk/pc use, swivel, arms, and midheight > back. No head support. > > The materials I work from include heavy statutes books, large printouts > (done on lineprinter--pretty unwieldy), and bills printed on 11 x 14 > paper. I tend to write and edit on the computer and to use online > searching of statutory material rather than flipping through the actual > books. I am also a bigtime mouse user. > > Would appreciate all suggestions. > > Sue Healy > Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision > ------------------------------ End of INDEX-L Digest - 14 Jun 1997 to 15 Jun 1997 ************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 20:57:57 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: Zip drives Pam wrote >>I have a 1.3 Mb--an hour backing up to >>Zips Friday evenings or Saturday mornings is not too much. I do differential >>backups to a zip disk midday and evening each day. An hour?? Oh dear, am I missing something? I use my Mac almost all day long and I back up to an external Zip just about every day. But it takes one minute, if that. Even when I've only backed up once a week, it only took a minute or two. I just insert the Zip diskette, it appears on my screen, I drop my whole folder of folders on it, it whirrs and clicks, and finishes, then I drag the Zip diskete to the trash. Are youse doing a different kind of backup? ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 02:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Ergonomics--again! In-Reply-To: <199706120053.RAA20108@mail5.netcom.com> I just came across an article (one of the benefits of database indexing) about a free booklet from NIOSH Elements of Egnomics Programs: A Primer based on Workplace Evaluations of Musculoskeletal Disorders. NIOSH Publication NO 97-117. Includes a tool box section of surveys, illustrations, directories/ Might be useful and it is free by either calling 1 800 356 4674 or http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/homepage/html Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:01:02 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Botanical spell checkers >From: TShere7566@AOL.COM >Subject: Spell checkers >Does anyone know whether a spell checker for botanical names exists? I'd be >interested in hearing about any specialized spell checkers you all use. >Thanks! >Therese Shere Word for Windows (6.0 onwards, at least) can turn any document into a list of spelling check words, so if you already have a list of botanical terms it can be turned into a dictionary file. I don't have the procedure at my fingertips, but I've done it in the past. Write back if you want more details. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:10:33 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcie Crocker Subject: Re: Clippings file index Hi all, I index our local newspaper and what you are looking to do may be similar. I use a database program called DB/Textworks by Inmagic, Inc., but any database program may work. For each article in the paper I have fields for the following: ACC An accession number that keeps articles in the order I index them, you may not need or want this one, but I sometimes find it helpful to keep similar articles straight. My accession number usually consists of the date indexed and an article number. Ex. 970616-1. SUB A repeatable subject heading field. I usually assign 2-3 subject headings for each article. I do use a controlled subject heading list, but most of my headings come from either the Library of Congress Subject Headings, the Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature, or the Expanded Academic Index. Your library should have access to most of these. TXT A sentence or two summarizing what is in the article. PUB The name of the publication. Our index for the Burlington Free Press is merged with the index for the Rutland Herald. DAT The date of the paper. CIT The citation for where to find the index that includes Page No., Section, and Column No. Ex. 3B:2 DES A description that tells special features that might be included with the article. Whether there is a photo, it is an editorial, or it is a review. You may want to combine the PUB,DAT, & CIT fields into a location field that tells were the clipping is found. You may want to use the DES field to describe whether the item is a newspaper clipping, a pamphlet, or whatever. This index is available on the World Wide Web at: http://myriad.middlebury.edu/BFPRHD I ftp my index to Middlebury College, but I am not exactly sure how they get the stuff on the Web. I can try to find out. Hope this helps: Marcie Crocker Marcie.Crocker@uvm.edu Indexer (802) 656-2635 Bailey/Howe Library University of Vermont At 02:24 PM 6/13/97 -0400, Mary Harris wrote: >List members, > >I am currently indexing our library's clippings file using Inmagic, a textbase >management software program. The file consists mainly of newspapers articles, >some pamphlets, and brief local historys. > >Does anyone know of any libraries or historical societys who have made a >searchable index such as this one available on the Internet? There is not much >out there for me to refer to as a guide. This index will be available in both >print and electronic format, so there is much to consider. > >Any suggestions? > >Thanks, > >Mary Harris >Huntington Memorial Library >Oneonta, New York > >on_mary@4cty.org > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:55:45 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Potential Short-Term Indexing Project Hi Everybody I got this message from someone who came accross my web page, so the answer is, yes web pages can help generate business. Unfortunately I can't do it as I'm booked to tightly, so with his permission I'm forwarding this to the list. Good luck. Rachel >From: "Stephen R. Guth/RSI/RYDERSYSTEMINC/US" > >Date: 16 Jun 97 11:07:45 >Subject: Potential Short-Term Indexing Project >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >I recently came across your contact information on the Internet as I was >looking for an individual to do a short-term document management project. My >name is Stephen Guth and I work for Ryder System, Inc. located in Miami, >Florida. I have a contract document, approximately 30 separate Word 6.0 >documents totaling over 550 pages, that has terms I need to have indexed with >hypertext capability. There are about 200 terms used anywhere from 1 to 500 >times that I need to have indexed with hypertext. > >There is no document composition involved--this is a legal document in its >final form and it merely needs indexing and hypertext. The document must be >converted into PDF format from Word 6.0 (you must have experience using >Acrobat >as the indexing/HTML tool). > >If you are interested in undertaking this project, please contact me via >e-mail >(reply to this e-mail or to stephen_r.guth@ryder.com) or contact me at >305/500-5385 with a rough estimate (both dollars and time). This project >would >require an immediate commitment on your behalf if Ryder were to engage your >services. If you reach my voice-mail, please leave a message indicating your >rough estimate. > >Thank you, >Stephen R. Guth >Ryder System, Inc. >305/500-5385 > Rachel Rice Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, consulting ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:35:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Zip drives Re time to back up to a Zip drive: One factor may be whether a ZIP drive on an IBM-compatible PC is attached to the parallel port (everybody has one of these) or to an SCSI controller (this is less common on PCs). The SCSI connection runs much faster - I don't have an exact comparison, but maybe 5 times as fast. Also, speed depends highly on the number of files - the more files, the slower. An advantage for Macs - they have SCSI built in. Joel ---- Martha Osgood wrote: > > Pam wrote > >>I have a 1.3 Mb--an hour backing up to > >>Zips Friday evenings or Saturday mornings is not too much. I do differential > >>backups to a zip disk midday and evening each day. > > An hour?? Oh dear, am I missing something? I use my Mac almost all > day long and I back up to an external Zip just about every day. But it > takes one minute, if that. Even when I've only backed up once a week, it > only took a minute or two. I just insert the Zip diskette, it appears on > my screen, I drop my whole folder of folders on it, it whirrs and clicks, > and finishes, then I drag the Zip diskete to the trash. > > Are youse doing a different kind of backup? > > ****************************************************** > Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR > > ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:46:55 -0700 Reply-To: mclaughb@cgs.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonny Mclaughlin Organization: cgs.edu Subject: Re: Northern California Jim, It's the Golden Gate Chapter you're looking for. Contact person is Karen Apland at (408)847-8234. Bonny McLaughlin Jim Wilson wrote: > > Hello list-friends; > > I am interested in finding an indexers group in the northern > California or Bay area that holds regular/semi-regular meetings and > functions. > > Being new to this industry, I have not yet joind a local group. > > Your help is appreciated, > > Jim Wilson > Jim Wilson, jimw@transport.com > Remember, two wrongs don't make a right... > but three lefts do! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:51:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Need pointers on breaking in Lucie Haskins said: >I was signed up for an indexing class (to be taught by Lori Lathrop) but it was cancelled. > I want to clarify Lucie's statement because I do not want anyone thinking that *I* cancelled the workshops I thought I was going to do for SOLUTIONS last week. That was a decision made by SOLUTIONS. Happy indexing .... Lori ********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:03:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: University Presses and Indexes Long live indexes - perhaps longer than university presses! The Bookend column in The New York Times Book Review of June 15, on best-selling university press books, has in passing some data about indexes. The author, James Shapiro, who "teaches English at Columbia University [hurray! my alma mater] and writes a column on publishing for The Chronicle of Higher Education", did a small, personal survey of the best-selling university press books. He collected lists of the top-selling university press hardcover books for January from Amazon.com, Ingraham Book Company (a wholesaler), and 6 independent bookstores [including one local and familiar to me], and created a list of his own that included every book that appeared on three or more of the individual lists - 12 in all. (He says university presses are defined as those that have faculty review boards.) He writes: "But the claim that university presses have adandoned the defining feature of the scholary book - notes, bibliographies and indexes - will find little support here. All are indexed, three include bibliographies and half the nonreference books have notes ...". I especially relish the fact that indexes are the most common of the three in his survey. Shapiro omments regretfully at the end of the article about the slow growth of university press sales and the high rate of returns from superstores. Joel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:24:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deann Birkle Subject: Re: Bad subcontract experience In-Reply-To: <199706020311.UAA12725@wakko.efn.org> Generally with sub-contractors before you can withhold pay or seek damages you have to give them the chance to correct the problem. Whether or not you do this, you would do her a great service by helping her learn from her mistake. I know that is something I would rather not do (confront anyone) but I think it is the best answer. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:25:14 -0700 Reply-To: LucieH@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lucie Haskins Subject: Re: Need pointers on breaking in Lori's reply was absolutely correct. I apologize for any fuzziness in my original messsage. I was so intent in my distillation of the events leading up to the questions I was posing for the group that I didn't read "into" how the "cancellation" statement might appear. The only reason I mentioned Lori's name was because I was eager to make her acquaintance. (The fact that she was teaching the class was the deciding factor in my decision to take it.) Anyway, it's not to be. I'll do my learning via another method. Where there's a will there's a way. Lucie Haskins Lori Lathrop wrote: > > Lucie Haskins said: > > >I was signed up for an indexing class (to be taught by > Lori Lathrop) but it was cancelled. > > > I want to clarify Lucie's statement because I do not want anyone thinking that > *I* cancelled the workshops I thought I was going to do for SOLUTIONS last week. > That was a decision made by SOLUTIONS. > > Happy indexing .... Lori ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:20:28 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 10 Jun 1997 to 11 Jun 1997 Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 20:54:39 -0700 From: Jonathan Sachs >I'm not a professional indexer, but I think that would be not merely compulsive; it would be wrong. The purpose of an index is to help the reader find information. If a passage as short as a single paragraph happens to span two pages, does knowing that fact help the reader find the information? I don't think so. It merely clutters up the index. To me, common sense dictates that references to material less than a page long should refer to the starting point, not the range. As an index user, if an item is indexed as appearing on page 6, I start at the top of page 6 and work down. If it's indexed as appearing on pages 6-7, I start at the bottom of page 6 and work up. So it does make a - slight - difference to retrieval speed. Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:04:16 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosalind Lund Subject: corporate names In-Reply-To: <866406078.053559.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> A newbie to the list, but not to indexing, I would be grateful for advice. I have worked for many years on an index to the finding aids of the various public record offices in the UK. I have done this as a joint project with several other indexers. The finding aids are published on microfiche with the index, which was originally merged, but is now published in yearly units. In recent years this has been published on a CD Rom and is now merged on CD with the US version, which is a parallel publication. Until the merged CD Rom was produced corporate names were listed in the style Smith (James) and Co. or Parry (A.B.) Ltd both as direct entries and as sub headings under an appropriate subject. The US version appears to have been approached differently and always entered as James Smith and Co or A.B. Parry Ltd The UK version is retaining my preferred method for sub or subsub headings, but as main entries has gone over to the US method. I can't imagine that people will be able to find the companies they are searching for now, as I would have thought that 18th and 19th century businesses were most likely to be known by their family name, and indeed the initial of the particular family member in charge may well change over time. Unfortunately, mine not to reason why, etc! But as a matter of interest I would be glad to have the group's views as to the respective benefits of these alternative methods of indexing. -- Rosalind Lund 1 Arbury Road Cambridge CB4 2JB England email : rosalind@lundboox.demon.co.uk Catalogue on the Web: http://antiquarian.com/lund-theological Phone +44 (0)1223 565303 Fax +44 (0)1223 565206 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:39:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Page ranges--2-page spans Jonathan Jermey's defence of including two-page ranges on the basis that readers then know to look for the concept near the foot of the first page rather than starting at the top and working down is excellent. When I encounter one page number only, my eye goes to the paragraph(s) in the centre of the page, then up, then down--hardly time-saving or more convenient; and I'm certainly not expecting to find the discussion extending into the next page. During the discussion on this topic I have been quite uneasy with the idea that only the number of the first page of a two-page span need be included. First and basically, because it tells an untruth. If the concept indexed spans the two pages, no matter how briefly, the index should say so. Second, the point made earlier that it's easy for the reader to see whether the concept goes on into the next page applies only to the concrete and/or simply expressed: the more abstract matters of many books may contain easily recognizable wording only at the beginning and end of a paragraph spanning two pages, say. The 2-page range tells the reader to keep reading, that this paragraph is indeed about this concept, just not obviously so. Noeline H. Bridge nbridge@planet.eon.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 10:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Page ranges--2-page spans Noeline H. Bridge writes: During the discussion on this topic I have been quite uneasy with the idea that only the number of the first page of a two-page span need be included. First and basically, because it tells an untruth. If the concept indexed spans the two pages, no matter how briefly, the index should say so. Second, the point made earlier that it's easy for the reader to see whether the concept goes on into the next page applies only to the concrete and/or simply expressed: the more abstract matters of many books may contain easily recognizable wording only at the beginning and end of a paragraph spanning two pages, say. The 2-page range tells the reader to keep reading, that this paragraph is indeed about this concept, just not obviously so. Another reason for including two-page ranges is marketing. Our company's marketing studies found that (for computer and technical books) the index is a book's biggest point-of-purchase marketing tool. A customer who wants a book on Perl programming will often flip through several indexes and then choose the book that seems to have broader scope and more in-depth discussions. It's a small difference, but I think "associative arrays, 143-144" implies more information than "associative arrays, 143". Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:35:00 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hamill, Chantal" Organization: Steedman Ramage WS Subject: Re: corporate names This is probably because ot the searching mechanism of the CD-ROM. A.B.Parry Ltd would tend to be looked for under the main name (Parry) in an alphabetical list. With a CD anybody keying Parry would find it, whichever way it was presented. When I write databases where the alphabetical order does not matter, I write corporate names in their full uninverted form. Where it does matter, I invert (for example listings of law reports). Chantal Hamill 128 Gowanbank Livingston EH54 6EW ---------- From: Rosalind Lund To: CH; Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: corporate names Date: 17 June 1997 15:04 A newbie to the list, but not to indexing, I would be grateful for advice. I have worked for many years on an index to the finding aids of the various public record offices in the UK. I have done this as a joint project with several other indexers. The finding aids are published on microfiche with the index, which was originally merged, but is now published in yearly units. In recent years this has been published on a CD Rom and is now merged on CD with the US version, which is a parallel publication. Until the merged CD Rom was produced corporate names were listed in the style Smith (James) and Co. or Parry (A.B.) Ltd both as direct entries and as sub headings under an appropriate subject. The US version appears to have been approached differently and always entered as James Smith and Co or A.B. Parry Ltd The UK version is retaining my preferred method for sub or subsub headings, but as main entries has gone over to the US method. I can't imagine that people will be able to find the companies they are searching for now, as I would have thought that 18th and 19th century businesses were most likely to be known by their family name, and indeed the initial of the particular family member in charge may well change over time. Unfortunately, mine not to reason why, etc! But as a matter of interest I would be glad to have the group's views as to the respective benefits of these alternative methods of indexing. -- Rosalind Lund 1 Arbury Road Cambridge CB4 2JB England email : rosalind@lundboox.demon.co.uk Catalogue on the Web: http://antiquarian.com/lund-theological Phone +44 (0)1223 565303 Fax +44 (0)1223 565206 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Page ranges--2-page spans My apologies for entering this conversation late. Just finished a complicated index and must have missed the beginning of the discussion. I cannot understand why having a 2-page entry would even require defense. To me an index is for the pages (locators) where there is information, not just where information begins. But then, I also distinguish between 1-2 and 1, 2. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:31:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Page ranges--2-page spans Erika Millen wrote: <> As an indexer, I like to think that book buyers consider the quality of an index when deciding which book to purchase. Many of us have used that argument with publishers who settle for low-bid, poor quality indexes. How interesting that your company has done research that bears out the impact of a good index on a book's marketability! If you can share any of the details of this research, I'm sure many of us would be interested. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:54:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Page ranges--2-page spans Janet Perlman wrote: << As an indexer, I like to think that book buyers consider the quality of an index when deciding which book to purchase. Many of us have used that argument with publishers who settle for low-bid, poor quality indexes. How interesting that your company has done research that bears out the impact of a good index on a book's marketability! If you can share any of the details of this research, I'm sure many of us would be interested. >> It's an interesting study, although I'm afraid it sometimes works against us when it comes to maintaining index quality. If a longer index is a better marketing tool, then pretty soon index quality = index length. I used to index for an imprint that would accept or reject indexes based on their length... most indexers there learned to code "filler" entries, post under as many synonymns as they could think of, and so on. If I get permission, I'll post the details. (I don't want to get in trouble for betraying our corporate marketing stretegies! :) Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:49:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision Now that I have my new keyboard tray at work -- hooray! and about damned time -- I have to sit farther away from the monitor. Altho' before I could see it well with my glasses off, now I cannot see it *well* with glasses off or on, unless I tilt my neck back to look through my bifocals. Obviously I can't sit in that position all day long. I'd be interested in hearing from any of you who have dealt with this sort of situation. Probably private e-mail is best, since this is not about our sorehands. TIA And, yes, I've repositioned the monitor. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:41:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision You might try glasses with an intermediate correction - between your reading and distance prescriptions. Tell your opthalmologist or optician what distance you will normally be from the screen, and they can give you the corresponding prescription. I did this, and it worked well (until my vision changed yet one more time). I prefer a single focal length over bifocals, since it gives a larger visual area; but if you switch between the screen and reading at a closer distance, bifocals might be better. You might try inexpensive drug store glasses first, to check how ell the intermediate correction works. Joel Lindsay Gower wrote: > > Now that I have my new keyboard tray at work -- hooray! and about damned time -- > I have to sit farther away from the monitor. Altho' before I could see it well > with my glasses off, now I cannot see it *well* with glasses off or on, unless > I tilt my neck back to look through my bifocals. Obviously I can't sit in that > position all day long. > > I'd be interested in hearing from any of you who have dealt with this sort of > situation. Probably private e-mail is best, since this is not about our > sorehands. > > TIA > > And, yes, I've repositioned the monitor. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com > > Technical Writer | phone: 1.415.372.3606 > > Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.415.341.8432 > > 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com > > San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:45:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Cast Subject: Re: Ergonomics/Leg muscles and nerves Have followed the ergonomics issues with interest, and didn't see one on leg muscles and nerves. The hardest part of this job for me is sitting all day. One leg has a several years history of recurring "restless leg" syndrome, as well as just nerve discomfort (not the brief-lasting sharp nerve pain associated with a bad new chair, for example). Mostly felt at night or sitting long periods. Can point a finger directly to the most sensitive spots, one in the tush muscles, one in the thigh. In restless leg studies, caffeine, meat, calcium, and other things have been indicted. Sitting hasn't been mentioned, but that seems to be a given. No help from my general physician. Planning to see a sports therapist (found him helpful for other leg muscle things), to see if there's a practical approach to this. Anyone else dealt with it? Thanks, Linda ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:04:33 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: QUERY Index-Lers I figured I'd bring my questions to the experts. I hope the indention comes through. A) If the words 'Bible' and 'Torah' are in roman, but Au italicized 'Bhaghavad Gita', would you make any changes in the index to make them all consistent? B) Not all similar words have been italicized by Au. Those that are (such as 'shever' and 'tzaddik') I will keep italicized, but should I italicize 'midrash' or 'Kaddish' or 'Shekhina' or 'Shiva' against Au's usage? And would you put the religious source in parens or not? midrash (Judaism), 150 classical, 335 Shiva (Hinduism), 179 C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to me? For example: Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 I am trying to avoid: Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 89, 35, 166, 195 106, 247, 255-257 D) On an earlier thread, someone said they index negatives as positives. IOW, where I want to discuss Other as being NOT chosen, the index entry Other as chosen discusses 'the chosen-ness of Other' and could indicate Other as being chosen and/or to NOT being chosen. Do you all agree with this? What say you? ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:05:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: ASI SIG for Science and Medicine This is a last call for all those who are interested in joining ASI's Special Interest Group for Science and Medicine. Our focus is marketing ourselves to those who hire indexers for medical and scientific materials, be it databases, books, or other media. Deadline for signup is July 1. The next Directory/Brochure will be printed in August. If you are interested, please send me an email with your snail mail address and I will arrange to have a membership sign-up form sent to you immediately. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:07:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Van Pelt Subject: Re: ASI SIG for Science and Medicine Linda Van Pelt 61 Wynnewood Drive Voorhees, NJ 08043 (609) 424-2864 At 09:05 PM 6/17/97 -0400, you wrote: >This is a last call for all those who are interested in joining ASI's >Special Interest Group for Science and Medicine. Our focus is marketing >ourselves to those who hire indexers for medical and scientific materials, >be it databases, books, or other media. Deadline for signup is July 1. The >next Directory/Brochure will be printed in August. If you are interested, >please send me an email with your snail mail address and I will arrange to >have a membership sign-up form sent to you immediately. > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 22:12:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: steve chupack Organization: Value Added Indexing Subject: legal indexing Within the last 7-10 days i believe I saw a message here from someone who is indexing depositions. If that person or anyone else doing this kind of work would contact me, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:03:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: QUERY At 06:04 PM 6/17/97 +0100, Martha Osgood wrote: >A) If the words 'Bible' and 'Torah' are in roman, but Au italicized >'Bhaghavad Gita', would you make any changes in the index to make them all >consistent? IMO, the consistency should have been introduced by the editor (or originated by the author). It seems to me that all should be in Roman, but I would NOT make that change in the index. Your entries ought to match the text of the book as exactly as possible. >B) Not all similar words have been italicized by Au. Those that are (such >as 'shever' and 'tzaddik') I will keep italicized, but should I italicize >'midrash' or 'Kaddish' or 'Shekhina' or 'Shiva' against Au's usage? Again, it's regrettable that the editor or author didn't use italics consistently...but since it was done a certain way in the book, I'd make the index conform to that usage. >And would you put the religious source in parens or not? > midrash (Judaism), 150 > classical, 335 > Shiva (Hinduism), 179 This is a bit tricky. It seems to me it depends on the book's audience. If it's directed at people who probably are already familiar with most of the concepts, I'd skip the additional sourcing. If it's for beginning comparative religion students, I might add the helpers. >C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to >me? For example: > Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 > Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 > Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 This =is= confusing. One possible solution is spelling out the numbers, no matter how high they go (and in fact, I'm sure I've seen "Twenty-third Psalm" referred to a number of times). I might set it up like this: Psalms Twenty-third, 35, 45, 213 Eighty-ninth, 35, 166, 195 One hundred sixth, 247, 255-57 I'm not crazy about this, but short of a typographical solution such as setting them in italic or small caps, I can't think of anything simple to do. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:28:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Help for Osgood 17 June 1997 Martha, I agree with Sonsie on the other points mentioned and like her suggestion for handling the psalms as well. However, I have seen another approach to handling numbers which occur right before locators: some publishers italicize the number (or the date in the case of War of 1812, for example) to help distinguish it from locators, as in the following: Psalm _23_, 45, 79, 185 Psalm _49_, 32, 50, 90 etc. War of _1812_, 92, 162 Good luck!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:03:36 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: QUERY In-Reply-To: <199706180106.SAA06421@dns1.mcn.org> >A) If the words 'Bible' and 'Torah' are in roman, but Au italicized >'Bhaghavad Gita', would you make any changes in the index to make them all >consistent? I was taught to duplicate italicization as I find it in the book. If there are inconsistencies (if Bhag. Gita is sometimes in roman), then a choice develops, but if B.G. is always in italic, so it should be in the index. >B) Not all similar words have been italicized by Au. Those that are (such >as 'shever' and 'tzaddik') I will keep italicized, but should I italicize >'midrash' or 'Kaddish' or 'Shekhina' or 'Shiva' against Au's usage? See above. These decisions are rightfully made in the copyediting stage, and if there are such major inconsistencies now, unless you've contracted to fix the book itself, reflect the author's usage. Again, if the same word is inconsistently italicized, I would call it to the publisher's attention. Index it as it most frequently appears, but query, as part of your delivery package. >And would you put the religious source in parens or not? > midrash (Judaism), 150 > classical, 335 > Shiva (Hinduism), 179 I wouldn't. They will get that information at the reference, and all the stuff in parens will clutter the index. >C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to >me? For example: > Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 > Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 > Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 > >I am trying to avoid: > Psalm > 23, 35, 45, 213 > 89, 35, 166, 195 > 106, 247, 255-257 DO AVOID the second. My instinct is to suggest a colon following: Psalm 23: 35, 45, 213 which yields consistency and style problems, or to spell out the Psalm chapters and force the sort into proper numerical order: Psalm twenty-three, 35, 45, 213 Psalm eighty-nine, 35, 166, 195 Psalm one hundred six, 247, 255-257 but I'm sure others have solved this problem and look forward to seeing their solutions. >D) On an earlier thread, someone said they index negatives as positives. >IOW, where I want to discuss Other as being NOT chosen, the index entry > > Other > as chosen > >discusses 'the chosen-ness of Other' and could indicate Other as being >chosen and/or to NOT being chosen. Do you all agree with this? I do not agree that one must never index negative information as such. I do it, and believe that by doing so I am in fact indexing the information presented by the author. I don't do it in every case, and I word carefully, but I definitely make use of it. In your example I think it would be absurd NOT to index the negative, and would vote for "as not chosen" or "as not of the chosen" as the subentry here. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 04:38:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Organization: MacAllen's Information Service Subject: Re: Lengthy Index-L Digests Happy Midweek to All: My Index-L comes in digest form. This means that if Index-L skips a nite, the next digest will be very lengthy. When that happens, would it be possible to divide index-l into two digests, making it easier to plow through all the posts, which I really want to read, but which become more difficult in one looooooong digest? Just a question. Thanks. Guess I enjoy the list so much, I need a double fix! Willa MacAllen MacAllen's Information Services Librarian/Technical Writer Boston macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 05:11:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: ASI SIG for Science and Medicine How much money does it cost to join the SIG? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:28:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Cost of joining ASI's SIG for Science and Medicine It costs $20.00 per year, you must be a member of ASI to join, and you get 5 copies of the Directory/Brochure to distribute as you see fit, while the SIG distributes other copies to publishers and professional associations which publish in the SIG's subject areas. We recently distributed our materials at AAUP and SSP national conferences. Extra copies of the Directory/Brochure are available to SIG members for $1.25. At 05:11 AM 6/18/97 -0700, Pam Rider wrote: >How much money does it cost to join the SIG? >Pam Rider > >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > >prider@powergrid.electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:53:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Harris Subject: Clippings file index Hi- Just wanted to thank Marcie for her response regarding the indexing of clippings files. If anyone else knows of a searchable clippings file or local history index on the Internet, I'd sure appreciate receiving the URL. BTW, our library also uses DB/Textworks by Inmagic. Thanks- Mary Harris Huntington Memorial Library Oneonta, NY >Marcie Crocker wrote: Hi all, I index our local newspaper and what you are looking to do may be similar. I use a database program called DB/Textworks by Inmagic, Inc., but any database program may work. For each article in the paper I have fields for the following: ACC An accession number that keeps articles in the order I index them, you may not need or want this one, but I sometimes find it helpful to keep similar articles straight. My accession number usually consists of the date indexed and an article number. Ex. 970616-1. SUB A repeatable subject heading field. I usually assign 2-3 subject headings for each article. I do use a controlled subject heading list, but most of my headings come from either the Library of Congress Subject Headings, the Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature, or the Expanded Academic Index. Your library should have access to most of these. TXT A sentence or two summarizing what is in the article. PUB The name of the publication. Our index for the Burlington Free Press is merged with the index for the Rutland Herald. DAT The date of the paper. CIT The citation for where to find the index that includes Page No., Section, and Column No. Ex. 3B:2 DES A description that tells special features that might be included with the article. Whether there is a photo, it is an editorial, or it is a review. You may want to combine the PUB,DAT, & CIT fields into a location field that tells were the clipping is found. You may want to use the DES field to describe whether the item is a newspaper clipping, a pamphlet, or whatever. This index is available on the World Wide Web at: http://myriad.middlebury.edu/BFPRHD I ftp my index to Middlebury College, but I am not exactly sure how they get the stuff on the Web. I can try to find out. Hope this helps: Marcie Crocker Marcie.Crocker@uvm.edu Indexer (802) 656-2635 Bailey/Howe Library University of Vermont ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:56:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michelle Robertson Subject: Sky Index software: Negatives? Positives? In-Reply-To: <199706180319.XAA07589@aztec.lib.utk.edu> Hi folks! I'm a cataloger, and I am about to begin indexing a cataloging newsletter (for OnLine Audiovisual Catalogers, Inc., or OLAC). This will be my first attempt at indexing, and I'm trying to figure out what software would be best for me. I downloaded the free version of SKY Index for Windows off the Web, and this software seems to have more features than the other around-$100 programs listed in Fetters' _Guide to Indexing Software_. (It will let you create macros, do forced sorts, flip entries, find and replace, enter two levels of subheadings, print in two-column format...) I also like that it is Windows-based. The macro language seems to be fairly well-documented. If anyone has used this program and knows some of its pitfalls, I would love to hear them. If any of the other indexing programs have improved significantly since the 5th edition of the _Guide_ came out, that would be helpful to know, too. These things may make a difference: I won't have all of the issues available in an electronic form to mark up, but may have some. The index itself is not likely to be huge, but I may end up doing the cumulative index for vols. 1-20, and that could be a fairly substantial file (though I don't know what constitutes a large file in indexing circles). I can't afford the more expensive software. I will be using volume, issue and page numbers in the index. Thanks! - Michelle --------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Martin Robertson robertson@aztec.lib.utk.edu University of Tennessee Libraries (423) 974-6696 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs I need some advice on the best way to handle chapters on CD-ROMs. Here's our problem: When one of our books is over page count, the editorial team will often pull a few chapters (usually the appendices) from the book and include them in electronic format on a CD-ROM that's packaged with the book. Unfortunately, this is usually a last-minute decision... sometimes after the index has already been compiled and edited! What's the best way to handle the index entries for the CD-ROM chapters? * Leave the page locators in place, and include a note at the beginning of the index to explain that pages 406-540 are on the CD-ROM. (The CD-ROM chapters are flowed into Acrobat Reader, so I've been told they retain their folio. ???) * Leave the page locators in place, but include some sort of prefix to indicate that they're on the CD-ROM... for example, "FTP, CD:430-CD:435". * Delete the page number locators and replace them with something like "on CD-ROM"... for example, "FTP, on CD-ROM". (This happens to be what our editorial staff prefers.) * Compile the CD-ROM chapters separately, and include a separate "CD-ROM Index" with the book. * Delete the CD-ROM entries altogether. I realize an electronic index or help file would probably be the most useful, but our deadlines just don't give us much of a choice. We rarely find out about the CD-ROM until a day before (or on the day) the index is due. Thanks in advance, Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: COLLEEN DUNHAM Subject: Re: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs ------ =_0_MIME_Boundary_6237.33a7fdc2.sloth.westpub.com Content-Type: text/plain; name="Authorized by..."; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Authorized by..." Message authorized by: : emillen@SAMS.MCP.COM at INTERNET ------ =_0_MIME_Boundary_6237.33a7fdc2.sloth.westpub.com Your thoughts? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs Author: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU at INTERNET Date: 6/18/97 11:07 AM I need some advice on the best way to handle chapters on CD-ROMs. Here's our problem: When one of our books is over page count, the editorial team will often pull a few chapters (usually the appendices) from the book and include them in electronic format on a CD-ROM that's packaged with the book. Unfortunately, this is usually a last-minute decision... sometimes after the index has already been compiled and edited! What's the best way to handle the index entries for the CD-ROM chapters? * Leave the page locators in place, and include a note at the beginning of the index to explain that pages 406-540 are on the CD-ROM. (The CD-ROM chapters are flowed into Acrobat Reader, so I've been told they retain their folio. ???) * Leave the page locators in place, but include some sort of prefix to indicate that they're on the CD-ROM... for example, "FTP, CD:430-CD:435". * Delete the page number locators and replace them with something like "on CD-ROM"... for example, "FTP, on CD-ROM". (This happens to be what our editorial staff prefers.) * Compile the CD-ROM chapters separately, and include a separate "CD-ROM Index" with the book. * Delete the CD-ROM entries altogether. I realize an electronic index or help file would probably be the most useful, but our deadlines just don't give us much of a choice. We rarely find out about the CD-ROM until a day before (or on the day) the index is due. Thanks in advance, Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ------ =_0_MIME_Boundary_6237.33a7fdc2.sloth.westpub.com-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:27:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision In-Reply-To: <199706172337.QAA28713@mx5.u.washington.edu> On glasses and the computer. I have several sets, including one that is just for computer use. I may have, however, to get bifocals since I can't always read things I am typing in with them. But then when I am typing I don't usually need to read the screen anyway. The only other downside I notice with prescription computer glasses is an occasional dizziness from the strange focus. But they sure help during an intensive day spent before the screen. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs Colleen Dunham writes: << Your thoughts? >> If it were up to me, I'd choose either to add some sort of prefix ("FTP, CD:430 - CD:435") or to delete the entries altogether. I'm not sure how many readers would actually read an explanatory note at the beginning of an index (I wouldn't! ), and I can just see someone wondering why there's an index entry for page 430 when the book ends on page 398. An "on CD-ROM" locator also seems pretty unhelpful to me... sort of like an entry that reads "C programming, somewhere in Part I." An additional problem is when you have a series of entries that all fall on the CD: functions Add(), 467 Get(), 456 Insert(), 470 Set(), 460 will turn into: functions Add(), on CD Get(), on CD Insert(), on CD Set(), on CD (Ugh!) Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Sena" Subject: Indexing Software I am a graduate student and over the past few months have been asked by my advisor to prepare a number of indexes for works he has recently written / edited. I am now searching for dedicated indexing software to help me with these jobs. Unfortunately, because of budget constraints, I will have to limit myself to a software package that sells for under $150. I realize this constraint will probably exclude the better packages, but I have no choice at this time. I have already consulted ASI's list of software tools for indexing, and am currently garnering information on the listed products (Cindex, IndexAid2, Indexer's Assistant, INDEXX, IN>SORT, Macrex, SKY Index and wIndex), but was wondering if anyone could recommend any of the above products -- or one that is not listed, provided that it can be used with Windows95, which is the platform that I use. Thank you very much. - Dave Sena ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:49:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: QUERY At 08:03 PM 6/17/97 -0700, you wrote: >>C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to >>me? For example: >> Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 >> Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 >> Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 > >This =is= confusing. One possible solution is spelling out the numbers, no >matter how high they go (and in fact, I'm sure I've seen "Twenty-third >Psalm" referred to a number of times). I might set it up like this: > > Psalms > Twenty-third, 35, 45, 213 > Eighty-ninth, 35, 166, 195 > One hundred sixth, 247, 255-57 > I thought about this as a solution. Another idea I had is to index them with the number first, 23rd Psalm, 35, 45 89th Psalm, 35, 166 The problem with both of these solutions is that neither of these is precisely what's on page 35. Is this more a matter of editing, so text reads either Psalm Twenty Three or Psalm XXIII? Or should we just assume our readers aren't complete doofus-heads and can tell they've arrived when they see "Psalm 23" even though the index said 23rd Psalm? (As a student of comparitive religion, I've read plenty of books that do NOT italize words common to the discipline under discussion: e.g., midrash, Koran, etc. Frankly, I'd find it patronizing. I can tell I've encountered a new word!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:25:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: QUERY At 08:49 AM 6/18/97 -0700, Lindsay Gower wrote: >The problem with both of these solutions is that neither of these is >precisely what's on page 35. Is this more a matter of editing, so text >reads either Psalm Twenty Three or Psalm XXIII? Or should we just assume >our readers aren't complete doofus-heads and can tell they've arrived when >they see "Psalm 23" even though the index said 23rd Psalm? My feeling is that we might be OVER-concerned with exact consistency in this particular case. The difference between Twenty-third Psalm, Psalm 23, and 23rd Psalm is, in reality, a typographical convenience...in this case, one that is introduced to assist readers find what they are looking for. They all mean the same thing otherwise. While I'm definitely in the camp that believes in making index references match the text as exactly as possible, this is one of those case where the "as possible" part overrides the "exactly" part. :-) >(As a student of comparitive religion, I've read plenty of books that do >NOT italize words common to the discipline under discussion: e.g., midrash, >Koran, etc. Frankly, I'd find it patronizing. I can tell I've encountered a >new word!) One use of italics (or bold, in many texts) is to introduce new terms. But another (and even more widespread) use is to indicate foreign words or terms that have not yet been accepted as "standard" English. Many French, Spanish, and Yiddish words have made the transition and are no longer italicized...but a number of them are still shown in italics. When I run across an italicized word in a text such as you describe, I don't feel patronized...I just assume it's a foreign-language word that is still uncommon in English usage. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:35:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision I have "regular bifocals" and computer bifocals. I know quickly when i am computing wih regular and shopping with computing. I tried to negotiate with my ophthalmologist (I highly recommend indexers and other intensive reades get medical prescriptions) for combo glasses--no go. Anyone who works much on a computer should tell their ophthalmologist and shell out for a special pair of glasses. At 08:27 AM 6/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >On glasses and the computer. I have several sets, including one that is >just for computer use. I may have, however, to get bifocals since I can't >always read things I am typing in with them. But then when I am typing I >don't usually need to read the screen anyway. The only other downside I >notice with prescription computer glasses is an occasional dizziness from >the strange focus. But they sure help during an intensive day spent >before the screen. Paul D. Buell > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:55:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Newlin Subject: Vision/glasses, etc. Ok, now time for me to jump in on this topic. I've worn vision correction for more than 30 years, most recently disposable contact lenses--left eye for distance and right eye for reading. However, I found that I needed to have reading glasses as well to help my left eye out when I was doing a lot of reading. Recently, I started having difficulty looking at the computer screen. (I also have two computer screens, one dual page and one single page which complicates the matter.) Now what to do?? I finally succumbed to glasses again, this time with Varilux progressive lenses made in polycarbonate and set in very lightweight frames. This combination weighs LESS than my half reading glasses with plastic lenses! Progressive lenses allow a wider range of vision, from distance to reading to in between. I've had them three days and I really like them. The lenses are more expensive than just plastic bifocal lenses, but the range of sight is impressive. There was even an article on the CNN online web health news about progressive lenses for the "aging" baby boomers. Let's all have good eyesight! Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Giles Subject: Re: Indexing Software In-Reply-To: <9706181608.AA55750@medcat.library.swmed.edu> I noticed that Authex Plus is not included on this list. It's mainly for indexing periodicals and building thesauri (I have used it in my home business for this), but it also has a book indexing capacity. It's produced by Reference Press in Teeswater, Ontario. They now have a new web page at http://www.wcl.on.ca/~refpress/. ============================================================================ Sharon Giles 214-648-2001 or 214-648-2590 (phonemail) Weekend Manager, Infodesk fax 214-648-3007 Univ. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas Library 5323 Harry Hines Blvd., Dallas, TX 75235 giles@medcat.library.swmed.edu Visit our web page at www.swmed.edu! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Sachs Subject: Controlled vocabulary for contact management My sister works for a university's public information office. Her job is essentially to promote favorable mentions of the university in the press. For example, when a report calls the university looking for information about cloning, she tries to find an expert on the faculty who is willing and able to provide it. Her office maintains a contact database for this purpose, but she says it isn't working very well. One problem is that no everyone indexes entries under the same terms. For example, one person might look for "Altzheimer's" and find nothing because another person entered the contacts under "geriatrics" or "senility." This is essentially a controlled vocabulary problem, and I wonder whether professional indexers have anything to contribute toward solving it. All comments are welcome, but I wonder specifically: - Whether any software packages intended for indexing might also be useful in solving this problem. - Whether anyone sells software *components* that a programmer could use to add support for controlled vocabulary to her own application. - Whether there are tested, documented techniques for ensuring consistency when several people are working together to maintain an index. Jonathan Sachs Sand River Software, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:08:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: QUERY RE: >>A) If the words 'Bible' and 'Torah' are in roman, but Au italicized >>'Bhaghavad Gita', would you make any changes in the index to make them all >>consistent? I agree that if it's italicized in text, it should also be ital in index. >>B) Not all similar words have been italicized by Au. Those that are (such >>as 'shever' and 'tzaddik') I will keep italicized, but should I italicize >>'midrash' or 'Kaddish' or 'Shekhina' or 'Shiva' against Au's usage? "Midrash," "Kaddish," and "Shiva" are common terms not usually italicized in writing about Judaism. "Shekinha" is less common (the more "female" aspect of the nongendered and unknowable God), but still looks fine to me in Roman. "Tzaddik" (wise and righteous one) is a word I've seen italicized or Roman. Consistency? (Picture me shrugging shoulders). I wouldn't worry about it. Again, it's the way it's done in the text that determines how it's done in the index. >>And would you put the religious source in parens or not? >> midrash (Judaism), 150 >> classical, 335 >> Shiva (Hinduism), 179 I too wouldn't. > >>C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to >>me? For example: >> Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 >> Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 >> Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 >> >>I am trying to avoid: >> Psalm >> 23, 35, 45, 213 >> 89, 35, 166, 195 >> 106, 247, 255-257 > >DO AVOID the second. My instinct is to suggest a colon following: > > Psalm 23: 35, 45, 213 Psalm 89: 35, 166, 195 Yes, I agree--and I would put the Psalm number in boldface. Often these citations appear in a separate citation index, where they would be run on: Psalms: \23\: 34, 45, 213; \89\: 35, 166, 195; \106\: 247, 255-257 Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:08:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: corporate names Rosalind wrote: >I have worked for many years on an index to the finding aids of the >various public record offices in the UK. I have done this as a joint >project with several other indexers. The finding aids are published on >microfiche with the index, which was originally merged, but is now >published in yearly units. In recent years this has been published on a >CD Rom and is now merged on CD with the US version, which is a parallel >publication. > >Until the merged CD Rom was produced corporate names were listed in the >style > >Smith (James) and Co. or >Parry (A.B.) Ltd > >both as direct entries and as sub headings under an appropriate subject. >The US version appears to have been approached differently and always >entered as >James Smith and Co or >A.B. Parry Ltd > >The UK version is retaining my preferred method for sub or subsub >headings, but as main entries has gone over to the US method. As Chantal Hamill stated, if this is a CD-ROM then a simple search would find the last name. However, if it is an actual index, I would certainly double post in both places. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 13:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: QUERY In-Reply-To: <199706180409.XAA11273@mixcom.mixcom.com> >C) When numbers are used, is it as confusing to the reader as it looks to >me? For example: > Psalm 23, 35, 45, 213 > Psalm 89, 35, 166, 195 > Psalm 106, 247, 255-257 Yes, I agree it's confusing (and worth alerting the editor not to change if you did decide to leave them like that). Psalms are definitely outside my area of expertise, but when I've had a main entry that ends in a numeral, I've tried putting some kind of "explanation" in parens after the numeral. I realize this is rather artificial, but it does separate the numeral from the locators. With numerals that are years, I don't worry about it, because the year (e.g., 1492) usually looks quite different from a locator. In this example, could you add in parens what the psalm is about? Psalm 23 (blurb), 35, 45, 213 Psalm 89 (blurb), 35, 166, 195 Psalm 106 (blurb), 247, 255-257 Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:20:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Controlled vocabulary for contact management In-Reply-To: <199706181717.KAA09790@mail5.netcom.com> One suggestion might be to use a database management software that allows you to have a list of accepted values for a field. I use Alpha4 and it has this feature and it works very well. When you get to the subject field, a list of acceptable values comes up and you can scan down the list and then highlight the term of interest and the value is added to the field. The first problem will be to come up with a list of acceptable values. It is also easy to add terms to the approved list. Alpha4 is a very powerful package and can create form letters, labels, invoices and anything else a small business needs. It is easy to create applications without being a programmer. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com 'On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Jonathan Sachs wrote: > My sister works for a university's public information office. Her job is > essentially to promote favorable mentions of the university in the press. > For example, when a report calls the university looking for information > about cloning, she tries to find an expert on the faculty who is willing and > able to provide it. > > Her office maintains a contact database for this purpose, but she says it > isn't working very well. One problem is that no everyone indexes entries > under the same terms. For example, one person might look for "Altzheimer's" > and find nothing because another person entered the contacts under > "geriatrics" or "senility." > > This is essentially a controlled vocabulary problem, and I wonder whether > professional indexers have anything to contribute toward solving it. All > comments are welcome, but I wonder specifically: > > - Whether any software packages intended for indexing might also be useful > in solving this problem. > > - Whether anyone sells software *components* that a programmer could use > to add support for controlled vocabulary to her own application. > > - Whether there are tested, documented techniques for ensuring consistency > when several people are working together to maintain an index. > > Jonathan Sachs > Sand River Software, Inc. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Re[2]: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs If you don't know until the last minute that certain chapters will be on CD-ROM, can you put those page numbers in boldface or italics? Then if people wonder why the italics, they will turn to the beginning of the index to find the explanatory note. I've even seen some explanatory notes as running footers in an index--a sure-fire way to get them noticed. Thus: ^Page numbers in italics refer to the CD-ROM section.^ Or something like that. It seems odd that you will have the pages in the book, and then they will be PULLED and just left on CD-ROM! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:36:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. I used two pairs of glasses for years--bifocals, and special computer glasses, which enabled me to read ms. and the screen comfortably. However, I too have recently sprung for Varilux lenses (because the frames I liked were too light for regular plastic lenses and I needed the polycarbonate), and after the initial getting-used-to-them period (about three weeks), I love them. The middle is perfect for reading the computer screen. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:30:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. I have progressive lenses, which I have found to be extremely comfortable. They have reduced my "peering" considerably. When I first started using them I felt a bit uncomfortable trying to determine the optimum distance from the screen. However, that just seemed to evolve naturally so that now I feel pretty well as free and easy about it as I did in pre-bifocal days. My eyes seem to have acclimatized so that moving closer to/further from the screen just causes them to adjust themselves without my noticing. I also found that using strong spot lighting on material I am reading/copying from to the screen reduces the stress of glancing from material to screen. Keeping it on a copy holder that is in the same plane as the screen also helps, if size allows it. Such irritating reminders of mortality! Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Documentation and Library Systems John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[4]: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs Elinor Lindheimer writes: << If you don't know until the last minute that certain chapters will be on CD-ROM, can you put those page numbers in boldface or italics? Then if people wonder why the italics, they will turn to the beginning of the index to find the explanatory note. I've even seen some explanatory notes as running footers in an index--a sure-fire way to get them noticed. >> Oooh... this is a great idea! :) This would work beautifully -- the numbers would stand right out, but without cluttering up the index. << It seems odd that you will have the pages in the book, and then they will be PULLED and just left on CD-ROM! >> Yep, we think it's odd too! Erika Millen emillen@sams.mcp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:14:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. Some people may have trouble adjusting to progressive lenses - I did: the visual field swam (rotated) when I turned my head. I suggest that anyone who tries progressives ask the optician for some kind of allowance on return. Joel Nancy Newlin wrote [excerpted]: > > I finally succumbed to glasses again, this time with > Varilux progressive lenses made in polycarbonate and set > in very lightweight frames. This combination weighs LESS > than my half reading glasses with plastic lenses! Progressive > lenses allow a wider range of vision, from distance to reading to in > between. I've had them three days and I really like them. > The lenses are more expensive than just plastic bifocal > lenses, but the range of sight is impressive. There was > even an article on the CNN online web health news about > progressive lenses for the "aging" baby boomers. > > Let's all have good eyesight! > > Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:51:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. Joel wrote: >Some people may have trouble adjusting to progressive lenses - I did: >the visual field swam (rotated) when I turned my head. I suggest that >anyone who tries progressives ask the optician for some kind of >allowance on return. My opthamologist advised me to shop around for this, but I had no trouble getting a guarantee that the lenses would be replaced with regular bifocals or ordinary distance lenses at no cost if I could not adjust to the progressive ones. They are Nikon lenses (yes, very expensive), and I wear quite large lenses (against most opticians' advice that they are too big for my face -- I don't like to have much frame in my field of vision). The optician warned me that there might be more peripheral distortion because of the size of the lenses, but I had no trouble with that. It took me about 3 hours to adjust to them for ordinary purposes and a week or two to feel at home in all circumstances. My only complaint is that I cannot afford to have a second dark pair (I like very very dark glasses in the sun and don't like clip-ons), so I have to suffer some disorientation when I switch to my dark distance glasses and therefore do so only when the length of time I will need the dark glasses justifies the disorientation. Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Documentation and Library Systems John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:08:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Controlled vocabulary for contact management Jonathan, I use MultiTes for thesaurus construction. (And for other controlled vocabularies.) Naturally, since I do thesaurus construction, I am biased in favor of thesaurus software the same way I (and others) are in favor of dedicated indexing software. One large advantage of using thesaurus software is that it does a lot of the monotonous work for you while watching your use of term relationships. This would be the same type of service as Cindex verifying cross references and making double posting a cinch. If your sister has to do this controlled vocabulary herself, it would be an advantage to have software that can keep term relationships and cross references (USE/USED FOR) straight. MultiTes also has an HTML generator, which has been handy for my projects. The thesaurus can be "published" to an inhouse computer or computer network for the indexers to use. Of course, printing on paper is also possible! The MultiTes web site is at http://www.cris.com/~Multites/ Have a look at their demo- which you can download free- and their instructions for creating a basic thesaurus. If you or your sister would like to talk about controlled vocabulary development, you are welcome to call. About your questions: At 10:14 AM 6/18/97 -0700, Jonathan Sachs wrote: [snip] ::This is essentially a controlled vocabulary problem, and I wonder whether ::professional indexers have anything to contribute toward solving it. All ::comments are welcome, but I wonder specifically: :: :: - Whether any software packages intended for indexing might also be useful :: in solving this problem. I suggest thesaurus construction software. There are several programs available. See the ASI web site and the AUSSI web site . :: - Whether anyone sells software *components* that a programmer could use :: to add support for controlled vocabulary to her own application. I don't know about components- do you mean add-on modules? And you didn't mention what software or platform she is using. :: - Whether there are tested, documented techniques for ensuring consistency :: when several people are working together to maintain an index. A well constructed thesaurus followed by lots of training. Even then, professional indexers using controlled vocabularies don't always agree on terms or relative importance. Hope this is of some use. Neva < +> = * = < +> = * = < +> = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > = * = < + > Neva J. Smith, MLIS njsmith@bga.com DataSmiths Information Services voice/fax +1.512.244.2767 PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680-2157 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:47:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carole M DeBell Subject: Re: ASI SIG for Science and Medicine Please include me as a member of SIG for Science and Medicine. I am a current ASI member. Carole DeBell 2984 Alderwood Court Napa, Ca 94589 (707) 252-2785 cmdebell@juno.com Looking forward to hearing from you. Carole ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:47:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carole M DeBell Subject: Re: Indexing Software When I took the indexing class I bought In>sort for the homework assignments and found it worked well. I did have some installation problems but the in>sort people talked me thru them. I was very pleased with the service and the product, and I think it was less than $100.00. Carole DeBell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:37:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: The ultimate style sheet In-Reply-To: <199706181703.AA07967@world.std.com> This is probably more applicable to the editing mailing list but since this list is more manageable and so full of nice people, and I know some of you are editors as well as indexers, I thought I'd pick the brains here first. I've been thinking about compiling the ultimate style sheet and maybe getting it published, if anyone's interested. This idea started with a manuscript with "first come first served" in it. I wondered, "Is there a comma? Should I add hyphens? Is it 'served' or 'serve'?" I didn't even know where to find the answer so I did what I always do and bugged my friend Alice who has been editing for over 30 years. But situations like this come up a lot. Sometimes the CMOS can solve my problem but it often takes too long to locate the answer. One thing about editing and indexing: I learn something new on every job I do. So I thought I'd try to compile a comprehensive list of terms, phrases, etc., both everyday and technical/medical. Obviously, I'd need a lot of input from other editors - I'll start with my old style sheets to produce a book proposal and ask editors to send me theirs, consult other style guides, and then get several good editors to review the final product. I don't think that the result would be a long book but I'm sure I would get a lot of use out of it. Such a book could be marketed in publications for groups like the Freelance Editorial Association, Society for Technical Communications, and other writing/editing groups. Maybe even ASI! So here are my questions: 0. Does such a publication already exist? (That would save me a lot of time.) 1. Do you this is a book that you could use? 2. Do you think anyone would want to publish such a book? (I'm not exactly aiming for a best-seller here. Just a useful reference.) 3. Do you have any favorite pet peeves you'd want included? 4. Has anyone ever written a successful book proposal? What should it include? 5. Do you know any acquisition editors at publishing houses that might be interested? I'll probably compile a list of AEs from other style guide type books and publishers I've worked for. 6. Am I completely insane? Thanks for the input. Private or public e-mail is ok. Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:41:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: Ergonomics/Leg muscles and nerves > > Have you tried such things as the ergonomic foot elevation rest; the Swedish style kneeling seat (which I used for several years quite satisfactorily. Charles > > Charles Anderson c.anderson.seattle@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:58:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: The ultimate style sheet Sarah means well. She obviously has not logged on to the copyediting list. Style is as much (if not more) druthers as it is right and wrong. Style is the way a given organization chooses to handle things. The finest of dictionary have varying spellings and meanings, as well as usage guidelines. Thank God English is fluid and flexible. But, don't ever think that 10 intelligent, experienced, well-qualified editors will come up with fewer than 3 answers to a given grammar or usage question. The reason we have style guidelines is that a given book, journal, or other publication has maximum consistency. For example: The British place punctuation outside of closing quote marks, those of us in the USA place commas and periods inside closing quotes and colons and semicolons out--question and exclamation marks vary. It's not a matter of absolute right and wrong, it's that one way has been chosen. CMS provides choices, which is wise and accurate. It's how a style is applied that's important and providing the variety of twists and turns one can run into would be difficult at best. _Words into Type_ is my current favorite and I anticipate the upcoming edition/revision. In copyediting there are two major givens: The copyeditor will spend a lot of time looking things up and the copyeditor will have to make choices in how to apply the information. No list will ever be able to replace the judgment process. Besides, although I don't always approach looking things up with glee, I nearly always learn something when I do. Finally. English is a fluid, changing language. This is a strength. A philology prof of mine pointed out that the length of a civilization's prominence has correlated to the adaptability of its language. An ultimate list would be out of date by the time it was available. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 22:36:28 -0400 Reply-To: editink@istar.ca Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Heather Ebbs Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: The ultimate style sheet Hmmm. Isn't a style guide + dictionary really just an ultimate style sheet? E.g., Chicago + Webster's? Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: clippings file index An organization I worked for has put the Inmagic database and thesaurus I= developed onto the Internet. The site is at http://www.marininstitute.org= =2E The database has citations, subject headings and abstracts for magazine and newspaper articles about the alcoholic beverage industry. An Inmagic rep rents space on her server to store and display this and other databases. = ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 09:45:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Cole Subject: Re: indexing chapters on CD-ROMs On 6/18/97 10:09 AM, Erika Millen said: > I need some advice on the best way to handle chapters on CD-ROMs. > > What's the best way to handle the index entries for the CD-ROM > chapters? > > * Leave the page locators in place, and include a note at > the beginning of the index to explain that pages 406-540 > are on the CD-ROM. (The CD-ROM chapters are flowed into > Acrobat Reader, so I've been told they retain their > folio. ???) You might consider, if possible, re-numbering the CD-ROM-based pages to the pagination Acrobat will give it. I'm frequently frustrated when using an Acrobat file where the Table of Contents and Index gives the pagination of the printed version (which, of course, excludes the front matter) while the Acrobat Reader uses it's own pagination (which includes the front matter). So if you look up something in the index, the locator may say "23," but if you use the software's GO TO function to skip to page 23 it isn't the same 23! Suzanne Cole PS This is my first posting to Index-L. I'm a newbie to the field who has enjoyed reading the postings for many months. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ C. Suzanne Cole, MA, MS Emerac Information Services PO Box 572 Doylestown, PA 18901 215-230-5552 suzanne@emerac.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:02:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Backing up to a second hard drive Hi, It is apparent from the responses to my previous posting about backing up to a second hard drive that I did not make it clear exactly how I use the second hard drive. So... Here goes. 1. I do NOT use "backup software" to backup to the second hard drive. I use XCOPY. XCOPY will copy an entire directory and it's subdirectories to another location. You can even set it up to copy only files that have changed. Because of this if I need to restore a lost or damaged file, I do not have to locate the file using a backup program's Restore function and then wait for (when a tape drive is used) the file to be located and ultimately restored. The file is simply there in exactly the same directory as on the original (main) hard drive. I simply copy the file back to the original hard drive and I am done. A ZIP drive could do this if all of the files you want to backup will fit on one ZIP diskette. I know that I have too many files to fit on one ZIP diskette though. A side advantage of this is that you don't have to worry that your backup software gets trashed and that the original disks become unreadable. (Not a likely situation, but possible none the less.) 2. Because the hard drive is ALWAYS there and turned on and is ALWAYS ready to accept new files I can setup MS Plus! to schedule an automatic backup as often as I like. The entire process generally takes less than 30 seconds or less to backup a full days worth of changed files. The more frequently you backup the less time it will take. 3. I backup ONLY data never programs that I have original disks to and that are essentially already backed up. I have created a directory named "Data" in the root directory of my computer and under that directory I have a subdirectory for each program that I use. "SKY Index", "Word", "Delphi", "Visual C++", "Visual Basic" etc.. Any and ALL data files that I create go into one or more of these subdirectories and of course in some cases there are sub-subdirectories. Using this technique, if I backup my "Data" directory I have backed up ALL of my important data files. This also means that I don't waste any of my time backing up files that don't need to be backed up. 4. For projects that I do a lot of work on I perform a backup that keeps "previous versions" of the data being backed up so that I can go back to a previous version should I royally mess up a file. I call the previous versions ".N1" and ".N2". Another person mentioned this technique and I highly recommend it too. These backups are stored in a different place on the second hard drive. I use an archive program like PKZIP to create these "special" backups. This too can be totally automated with the MS Plus! scheduling program. 5. Once a month I backup to my tape drive. This takes about an hour. This tape is stored in another building in case of theft or fire. Two VERY unlikely situations. 6. Finally, once a month (after I backup to tape) I erase the entire backup on the second hard drive and then perform a fresh backup. This is needed because if you delete a file on the primary hard drive it does not get deleted on the secondary one. This will eventually result in a huge number of useless files on the secondary hard drive and the resulting wasted space. This backup takes ten to fifteen minutes. 7. I think if you consider time as being money ( and time certainly IS money for a self-employed person ) that this is the most cost effective means of backup. I also think that it is the easiest. I physically do ABSOLUTELY nothing except once a month and even that is mostly automated. I hope this is a better explanation than before. We all have our preferences and I don't mean to presume that this is the best method in all cases and for all people. It is, however, very effective for me. The most important thing about this thread is: ALWAYS BACKUP!! Happy Indexing, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:04:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. In-Reply-To: <199706181702.KAA24998@mx3.u.washington.edu> I got progressive lenses a couple of years ago and flatly could NOT adjust to them, due to the narrowed field of vision in the middle of the glasses. (According to my optometrist this is a non-uncommon phenomenon for long-term bifocal wearers.) The lenses came with a guarantee that I could revert to standard bifocals within 30 days at no additional charge. Which I did. So make sure up front that you CAN return the progressive lenses for a free replacement if they don't work for you. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Nancy Newlin wrote: > Ok, now time for me to jump in on this topic. > > I've worn vision correction for more than 30 years, most > recently disposable contact lenses--left eye for distance and > right eye for reading. However, I found that I needed to have > reading glasses as well to help my left eye out when I was > doing a lot of reading. Recently, I started having > difficulty looking at the computer screen. (I also have > two computer screens, one dual page and one single page > which complicates the matter.) Now what to do?? > > I finally succumbed to glasses again, this time with > Varilux progressive lenses made in polycarbonate and set > in very lightweight frames. This combination weighs LESS > than my half reading glasses with plastic lenses! Progressive > lenses allow a wider range of vision, from distance to reading to in > between. I've had them three days and I really like them. > The lenses are more expensive than just plastic bifocal > lenses, but the range of sight is impressive. There was > even an article on the CNN online web health news about > progressive lenses for the "aging" baby boomers. > > Let's all have good eyesight! > > Nancy > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: The ultimate style sheet Thanks, Joel. I wrote the note off-the-cuff and I'm certain it could benefit from other editing. I wished I had written "have maximum consistency." One thing folks soon discover on the copyediting list is that anyone is most likely to err in a message to a list about professional language. At 10:26 AM 6/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >Pam Rider wrote [excerpted]: >> >> Thank God English is fluid and flexible. But, don't ever think that 10 >> intelligent, experienced, well-qualified editors will come up with fewer >> than 3 answers to a given grammar or usage question. >> >> The reason we have style guidelines is that a given book, journal, or other >> publication has maximum consistency. > >Just to start the ball rolling towards 3 answers (-:) - shouldn't that >be "have maximum consistency"? (Some kind of conditional future, rather >than present tense.) > >Joel > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:42:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. When, after about 4 years of bifocal use, I first got two prescriptions (1 typical, 1 computer), the optician suggested progressive for the computer pair and then asked if that would be okay for both. I said yes. Progressivity has been wonderful for the computer glasses. It was a disaster for the everyday pair--I was told it's a matter of variation in focal length not usually noticed in limited, dedicated use such as with a computer. The optician re-did my everyday pair back to bifocals. The most amazing part of the process was that the optician receptionist was amazed that I was upset that I could not read supermarket labels with the progressive everyday glasses--why would I want glasses for anything but driving a car? At 08:04 AM 6/19/97 -0700, Carolyn Weaver wrote: >I got progressive lenses a couple of years ago and flatly could NOT adjust >to them, due to the narrowed field of vision in the middle of the glasses. >(According to my optometrist this is a non-uncommon phenomenon for >long-term bifocal wearers.) The lenses came with a guarantee that I could >revert to standard bifocals within 30 days at no additional charge. >Which I did. So make sure up front that you CAN return the progressive >lenses for a free replacement if they don't work for you. > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Corrington Subject: Re: legal indexing Steve - How can I help? Paul Corrington Corrington Indexing Service 2647 East Kenwood Mesa, Arizona 85213 e-mail: Paul Corri@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 14:25:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The ultimate style sheet In a message dated 97-06-18 19:44:40 EDT, Sarah wrote: > This is probably more applicable to the editing mailing list but since > this list is more manageable and so full of nice people, and I know some > of you are editors as well as indexers, I thought I'd pick the brains here > first. In a message dated 97-06-18 21:44:00 EDT, Pam wrote: > Sarah means well. She obviously has not logged on to the copyediting list. Well, gee, Pam, you certainly made sure that Sarah won't mistake us for nice people here again with that condescending remark! Sarah, while there can't be an "ultimate" style sheet because styles vary from organization to organization, go for it. As some Russian general said (according to a book I indexed long ago), "Perfect is the enemy of good enough." Many organizations, instead of recreating the wheel, will adopt an existing style guide that they happen to like--that addresses their particular needs. Twice, Pam stated in her post that English is a fluid, changing language. Being that this is true, it is logical to believe that there will always be a need for up-to-date style guides. To avoid competing with Chicago, the AP Style Guide, etc., you may want to develop a specialized style guide. As folks give you *constructive* input and you play around with the idea, who knows what useful tool you'll come up with? I would have said all of this to you only privately since this is slightly off-topic, but being that you were backhanded publicly, I thought you needed to be supported publicly as well. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:47:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. In-Reply-To: <199706191600.JAA28346@mx5.u.washington.edu> Pam: glasses demonstrating progressivity, around here at least, are a great deal more expensive. That is a primary reasons that opticians love them. Mine are a pain and it is soon back to bifocals. I cannot see a whole page when I read and the edges of pages are always blurred. My computer glasses are single focus, for what it is worth, although I may get bifocals next time to be able to read what I am working on when I am typing in something. What I really want is a direct wire to my brain.... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 15:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Rush charges In-Reply-To: <199706190403.AA14805@lamb.sas.com> from "Automatic digest processor" at Jun 19, 97 00:00:08 am I'd like information on how you charge extra for an especially fast turnaround. Do you increase your rate? Add a certain percentage? Negotiate a flat fee? Something else? I'm trying to develop a written policy on this. I've never felt the need for one in 12 years of indexing, but the time has come! Thanks. Joan sasjcs@unx.sas.com jstout@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision Hey, Everybody, I have resisted commenting on the vision problem, but here in my household we have one progressive lens wearer and one NOT. My husband, who spends his share of time at the computer, loved his from the beginning and I tried for weeks and went back to (do I dare say it) trifocals with lines. They are wonderful for those inbetween places like the edge of your large desk and a computer screen on the other side of the keyboard and the manuscript you are working from. We reference librarians have trouble seeing the top shelf and the bottom shelf without them (after a certain age). It may be that you need trifocals rather than bifocals when your optometrist suggests progressive lenses. I love mine with lines and he loves his progressives. So there you are. Our $.04 worth. Gerri Gray Reference Librarian and Basic Indexing Student ghg@loyola.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:13:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rush charges Joan, I have done many of the above for rush requests, depending on the publisher. I have occasionally charged (and been offered in advance) a flat fee of several hundred dollars (depending on the size of the index), and more recently, I have increased my per page rate about $.50 for rush jobs. Because the publishers are fully aware of what they are asking, they have been happy to oblige. And, because I am charging a premium to meet their deadlines, they know that I will do as promised. I hope this helps. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 20:15:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: How-to videos/seminars Would those of you who offer indexing how-to seminars and offer videos please contact me. I am trying to gather information for a potential indexer living in Kansas. Thanks, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 13:51:42 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosalind Lund Subject: Re: corporate names In-Reply-To: <866562551.0914370.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> >This is probably because ot the searching mechanism of the CD-ROM. >A.B.Parry Ltd would tend to be looked for under the main name (Parry) in an >alphabetical list. With a CD anybody keying Parry would find it, whichever >way it was presented. When I write databases where the alphabetical order >does not matter, I write corporate names in their full uninverted form. >Where it does matter, I invert (for example listings of law reports). >Chantal Hamill >128 Gowanbank >Livingston EH54 6EW > ---------- Thanks, Chantal The problem with the CD is that although anyone could certainly find Parry simply by keying in Parry, they might find lots of Parrys and wouldn't know which one was which until they had searched as far as the finding aid itself, which is all time-consuming. The problem here is obviously with the search-engine of the CD and shouldn't really happen! -- Rosalind Lund 1 Arbury Road Cambridge CB4 2JB England email : rosalind@lundboox.demon.co.uk Catalogue on the Web: http://antiquarian.com/lund-theological Phone +44 (0)1223 565303 Fax +44 (0)1223 565206 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stefan Stackhouse Subject: Re: Vision/glasses, etc. I tried progressive lens bifocals and hated them. I found it easier to just have 2 pairs of eyeglasses: a pair for driving, "walking around", etc., and another for computer work and reading. I have an Eagle Creek glasses case that has a clip, so I can just clip it to a belt loop if I need to carry my other pair around and need my hands free. Also avoids losing them. I don't bother taking the close-up pair with me except when I know I'm going to be reading. Fortunately, my eyesight isn't too bad, so I am able to do a little reading with the distance glasses if necessary -- I just get eyestrain quickly. I suspect that thrifty old Ben Franklin invented the bifocals so that folks could get "2 for the price of 1". I don't feel quite that poor. Actually, I have 3 pair, as I also have Rx sunglasses for the distance pair. Highly recommended! But probably not while you are doing indexing work!! B-) At 09:55 AM 6/18/97 -0700, you wrote: >Ok, now time for me to jump in on this topic. > >I've worn vision correction for more than 30 years, most >recently disposable contact lenses--left eye for distance and >right eye for reading. However, I found that I needed to have >reading glasses as well to help my left eye out when I was >doing a lot of reading. Recently, I started having >difficulty looking at the computer screen. (I also have >two computer screens, one dual page and one single page >which complicates the matter.) Now what to do?? > >I finally succumbed to glasses again, this time with >Varilux progressive lenses made in polycarbonate and set >in very lightweight frames. This combination weighs LESS >than my half reading glasses with plastic lenses! Progressive >lenses allow a wider range of vision, from distance to reading to in >between. I've had them three days and I really like them. >The lenses are more expensive than just plastic bifocal >lenses, but the range of sight is impressive. There was >even an article on the CNN online web health news about >progressive lenses for the "aging" baby boomers. > >Let's all have good eyesight! > >Nancy > Stefan Stackhouse 557 Haw Creek Mews Drive Asheville NC 28805 704-298-4859 stefans@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 23:09:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Slighty Off the Subject - Vision Three cheers for trifocals! Good wide 35-mm flat-top tri's! I've worn trifocals for many years, and have never been hampered by them, at the computer or otherwise. Not progressives either. Not possible with my correction. I've had my share of bad glasses in my day, years ago. Now I absolutely treasure both my ophthalmologist and my glasses place. Their precision work is vital to me. The more complex the correction, the more important high quality opticianry is. So ... keep trucking til you have the glasses you need. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 02:43:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: selective author indexes - scholarly Hello again to everybody! I've been unable to post much to the list, just trying to keep up with everything! I'm working on another one of those HUGE 3 index Bible commentaries. This one is on the book of Galatians. The 3 indexes are, of course, subj, author and scripture references. I'd like to ask your advice on doing author indexes. I saw some of the recent discussions along these lines about whether or not to include all names in a parenthetical reference, etc. but didn't get to follow them all closely and I think this question is a little different. The author and editor both prefer a selective author index. Would some of you who are very experienced with this please tell me how you distinguish between significant and passing author citations? I'm especially having a hard time because nearly all of the authors are referenced only in footnotes. Very rarely has the writer included the author citation in the text discussion. Therefore, I can't gauge the importance of the reference by how many lines or paragraphs are given to it, etc. Are there some standard indicators that can guide me in making selection decisions, for example, certain phrases or words, or ways the citation is written in a footnote that might signal an important reference? For instance, when there is a long list of authors for a certain topic of discussion (one footnote I came across cited 12 authors on one topic!), are the first ones usually the most significant? Could I take the first few and not include all the rest? How can I make sure I give credit where credit is due? How do others of you go about deciding what to include? Another factor to consider is that the author wants to include titles of the works as subentries to the author's name. This is to allow the reader to see which works are being cited for any particular author and also so that if a reader wants to find out what the current writer said about a particular person's work, they can easily locate where that author and work is discussed. Good reasons, I think. Certainly eliminates long lists of undifferentiated locators in the author index! This, of course, will have an impact on the number of lines in the total index and will require that I be more selective in all 3 indexes. Have any others come across author indexes with titles? All comments/advice about selecting author names for index appreciated! Jill Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:07:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: selective author indexes - scholarly Jill wrote: >The author and editor both prefer a selective author index. Would some of >you who are very experienced with this please tell me how you distinguish >between significant and passing author citations? I'm especially having a >hard time because nearly all of the authors are referenced only in footnotes. > Very rarely has the writer included the author citation in the text >discussion. I would include only authors whose thoughts are written about in the footnote--not those whose names or works are merely mentioned. This means the index user is not led merely to a reference to another work, but to further discussion about the subject. >Another factor to consider is that the author wants to include titles of the >works as subentries to the author's name. This is to allow the reader to see >which works are being cited for any particular author and also so that if a >reader wants to find out what the current writer said about a particular >person's work, they can easily locate where that author and work is >discussed. I have seen this, and it can indeed be useful, albeit space-intensive! If you include only those authors whose thoughts are discussed, you end up with an author index that is subject-related, not the usual strings of undifferentiated locators. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:16:12 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rosalind Lund Subject: corporate names In-Reply-To: <866727775.0924468.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> >Thanks, Chantal > >The problem with the CD is that although anyone could certainly find >Parry simply by keying in Parry, they might find lots of Parrys and >wouldn't know which one was which until they had searched as far as the >finding aid itself, which is all time-consuming. The problem here is >obviously with the search-engine of the CD and shouldn't really happen! My response to Chantal above, came back to me as undeliverable. Maybe it actually got through, in which apologies for sending it again. If it didn't, well, I'm hoping for the best this time. Email and the Web are wonderful, but sometimes there are glitsches! -- Rosalind Lund 1 Arbury Road Cambridge CB4 2JB England email : rosalind@lundboox.demon.co.uk Catalogue on the Web: http://antiquarian.com/lund-theological Phone +44 (0)1223 565303 Fax +44 (0)1223 565206 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:06:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: selective author indexes - scholarly I once had to do an author index that was essentially a bibliography because the book did not have a separate bibliography and so all the authors and their works were listed in the index! It is not real clear to me from your comments if your author means only a selective index of authors whose works are discussed in the text and in substantive footnotes or an index that also includes some authors who are only referenced in the footnotes, too. If you are not going to just index the authors whose works are discussed in the text and in substantive footnotes, I would say that you definitely need the input of the book's author in order to make selective choices about the cited authors to include. Why? Unless I have been missing something, about the only way I (as a non-expert on a subject) can know who the most important cited authors are is by the number of times that an author and his/her work is discussed in the text or in substantive footnotes. That is a pretty clear signal that the cited author is somebody of renown. On the other hand, sometimes there isn't much discussion of certain authors who are quite important, too. Few of us are so well-read in the scholarly literature of each topic that we index to instantly know who is a respected authority in the field, much less the lesser-known authorities. Of course, if you constantly index books on the same subject, you begin to recognize the luminaries right away (example: for me, Jurgen Habermas is one of those whose name rings lots of bells--he's one of those discipline-crossers, too, in the social sciences). So, in your case, unless you are a Biblical scholar with the same scholarly credentials as the book's author, I do not see how you can produce a selective author index without his/her input if the situation is not as I have outlined above re: discussion in text and footnotes. In summary, I would discuss this with the book's author, telling him/her how you plan to select the names; if that isn't broad enough a selection, then the ball is in the author's court--he/she should provide you with a list. (You might also want to mention that it is not the usual practice to index authors only cited in footnotes, but since the author and editor are your customers, you should ultimately provide what they want, even if you do not necessarily agree with it.) Just my $.02 on a hot June day! At 02:43 AM 6/20/97 -0400, Jillbarret@AOL.COM wrote: >I'm working on another one of those HUGE 3 index Bible commentaries. This >one is on the book of Galatians. > >The author and editor both prefer a selective author index. Would some of >you who are very experienced with this please tell me how you distinguish >between significant and passing author citations? I'm especially having a >hard time because nearly all of the authors are referenced only in footnotes. > Very rarely has the writer included the author citation in the text >discussion. Therefore, I can't gauge the importance of the reference by how >many lines or paragraphs are given to it, etc. Are there some standard >indicators that can guide me in making selection decisions, for example, >certain phrases or words, or ways the citation is written in a footnote that >might signal an important reference? For instance, when there is a long list >of authors for a certain topic of discussion (one footnote I came across >cited 12 authors on one topic!), are the first ones usually the most >significant? Could I take the first few and not include all the rest? How >can I make sure I give credit where credit is due? How do others of you go >about deciding what to include? > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:11:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Rush charges You wrote: > >I'd like information on how you charge extra for an especially >fast turnaround. Do you increase your rate? Add a certain >percentage? Negotiate a flat fee? Something else? I'm trying >to develop a written policy on this. I've never felt the need >for one in 12 years of indexing, but the time has come! Thanks. > >Joan >sasjcs@unx.sas.com >jstout@mindspring.com > Joan, If I don't have a lot of work in a given time period, and if I think I can fit it in, and the crunch is not *TOO* unreasonable, I probably won't charge differently. But here's a formula I sometimes apply: 1) figure how long the job should take normally: for example, "two weeks" (i.e., 10 business days) 2) figure what I would normally charge for such a job: for example "$1000". (I make this estimate by averaging a per-line cost and a per-page or per-word cost). 3) take the client's desired turnaround: for example, "one week" (5 bus. days). 4) calculate the premium charge as item #1 divided by item #3: e.g., 10/5 = 200% 5) calculate the job estimate as item #2 times item #4: e.g., $1000 x 2 = $2000. That is, if the job needs to be done in half the normal time, the charge is twice as much; and if it's done in a third of the normal time, the charge is triple! But as I implied above, I don't think this formula can be applied mechanistically - it's a matter of negotiating. I do believe that rush charges are justified if a job could have a serious impact on your other work. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:54:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Copyright permission? Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:23:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Newlin Subject: Re: Copyright permission? In-Reply-To: <199706201852.LAA10515@mailhost2.BayNetworks.COM> Dick, Speaking as the publisher of a local history book, I would NEVER give anyone permission to copy my book in its entirety for any use. My reasoning is that it would cut into my sales, and that's how I manage to keep my small sideline business going. IF a publisher would be willing to grant permission, I bet that you can count on paying them some substantial $$ to offset their sales losses. For my book, I had to pay the local newspaper $150 just to reprint a photo from their archives!! So I believe that what you're asking is not routine and will not cause them a hassle--they'll just say no. I'll be interested to hear what the publisher's reply is to your inquiry. Nancy - - - - - - - - - - - >Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of >their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something >simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > >Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:55:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Copyright permission? Reproduction for class use let to a major lawsuit against Kinkos. You may be speaking of 1 copy. I doubt very much a publisher would consider a request to reproduce a hassle. Copyright is very importat to publishers. At 02:54 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of >their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something >simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > >Dick > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:12:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: Copyright permission? In-Reply-To: <199706201855.LAA09484@mx3.u.washington.edu> Copyright permission: yes do it and it is important. You can get your school busted for reproducing stuff without permission and expect to have limitations placed on what you do. Paul D. Buell PS: It is usually very easily done unless you have many things in a course folder. But be aware that many things may be public domain. Get a book on the subject. Incidentally, I write and ask the publisher's permission even to use a few lines of quoted material. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:14:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Copyright permission? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970620145407.0077ed9c@pop.mindspring.com> Not sure how it is working in the US these days, but in the past it would be big deal because of lost revenue from selling published copies of the book. And, of course, it does violate the heck out of copyright if you do it without permission. There have been a couple of relevant court cases, and as I recall the publisher won damages from copy stores/academic institutions. There is limited "fair use" available, but it doesn't extend pass relatively small sections of a published book or other types of published material. If you're teaching for an academic institution they probably have policies in place for the creation of "course material" packages sold at the campus bookstore. Many of them will arrange to get publisher permission [if available] as part of the service. Hope this helps. Susie Stephenson UBC/SLAIS mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of > their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something > simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:21:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Copyright permission? In-Reply-To: <199706201855.LAA09484@mx3.u.washington.edu> If you're talking about a cover-to-cover copy it's a VERY big deal; they want the money for the sales! If copying only a small portion, it's a matter of asking permission, which they may or may not grant. Educational institutions and libraries do have special 'fair use' exemptionss; but for-profit organizations have additional restrictions that have resulted in very large judgments against them (e.g., Kinko's and Texaco decisions). My library's Web page has a number of links to copyright information in general that you many want to check out at http://healthlinks.washington.edu/hsl/copyright.html Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of > their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something > simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 16:15:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Robert Austen Subject: Re: Copyright permission? In-Reply-To: <199706201856.NAA01036@cayman.ucs.indiana.edu> The art of the big deal! When you want to borrow from a book for your class. . . . Here are a couple of ways to work this with the publisher and author: Show that you'll only be reproducing a small fraction of their book. Show that their material will be only a small fraction of your course. Offer to pay and emphasize that the payment would be moderate only. Emphasize that they will be fully credited at the beginning/end of the passage you use. Tell them what chapter(s) only you will use. Tell them the dates of the class that the material will be used. (Not forever.) If need be, offer to only use passages from an edition which is not their most recent. (The chapter in question might not have changed anyway.) If need be, offer to provide the above assurances in a contract. Offer to give them a copy of the class materials on disk. Quid pro quo, the author might be inspired/entertained by YOUR materials and do a "swap" with you, idea for idea. Of course, your materials are your own (c) too and she/he must respect that. Offer to make a moderate donation to their favorite charity, if it seems that the sum is too small to interest them. (Or would insult them.) Best wishes and let us know, DRA --- Offer to put their URL in the course materials, or the URL of the publisher or even Amazon.com so students can buy the book easily if it is not in your book store - or if it is more expensive in your local bookstore. On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of > their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something > simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > > Dick > ------------------- David Robert Austen Masters Degree Program in Information Science Indiana University, Bloomington Indiana 47405 U.S.A. Telephone 812 335 8835 Fax 812 335 8598 -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:59:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Copyright permission? As others have stated, a resounding YES! This is not an area in which you can try to set your own rules or make a deal with publishers. The Copyright Law of 1976 delineates how to deal with this sort of situation. Under the "fair use" clause of the copyright law, you are entitled to make one copy of an item for your personal use. Anything beyond that, and especially if you make any money at all from the act of copying the item, is a violation of copyright, with serious repercussions for you and any copy center that does the copying for you (remember the Kinko's case?). One solution is to get permission from the publisher to reproduce the item and arrange to have the item sold by a copy center where the royalties are sent to the publisher by the copy center. If you aim to have students, for example, create an index for the book, why not just require that they buy the whole thing and avoid the problem? (Of course, if there is already an index in the book, you've got another problem!) If this is not the reason for copying the book (and even if it is), I would just order copies of the book from the local bookstore and tell the students to go buy it, if it is still in print. You could also investigate putting a copy of the book on reserve at the library of your institution (if you are affiliated with an academic institution). If you are not with an educational institution, maybe you could put the book on reserve at a local public library willing to cooperate with you on this. At 02:54 PM 6/20/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >Is it a Big Deal to get permission from a publisher to reproduce one of >their books for use as course material? By that I mean, is it something >simple that publishers routinely do or would I be causing them a hassle? > >Dick > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 20:32:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: Re: Copyright permission? Most places which offer duplicating services to the public, particularly around universities, have printed Fair Use rules posted somewhere near the machine. If you don't see such a posting, surely they would be available if you ask. In the United States fair use permits reasonable leeway for educational purposes. A teacher may, without asking for permission, reproduce a section (perhaps one chapter) from a work under copyright for one-time use in class. If you use it a second year, you must ask for permission, which is given to teachers by most publishers without cost. (At least that has been my experience.) Ann Parrish Parrish Professional Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:31:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Beth Kiss Subject: Re: magazine/CINDEX index help Hi everyone, This is my first time posting a question (or two) but I hope someone out there can give me some ideas or suggestions. I've inherited a several years of a magazine index all done in CINDEX. The company of course wants them cumulated and usuable. Okay, no problem. I have run up against a couple of quirks though and I'd appreciate some suggestions. First, every article was entered with the department following the title in parenthesis. (Ex. \b<">Way to go Bob"\B (BR), where BR stands for Book Review) Often there might have been follow-up comments by readers. These were placed in the Comment section of the magazine with the same title. (Ex. \b<">Way to go Bob"\B (Com) where Com stands for comment.) Of course, the way it is typed here when the master index is printed there are two entries one for the BR and one for the Com. I'd like to see one title in the index. Yet, there still needs to be some way to differentiate between the main article and the comments. I can't move the dept. codes to follow the author's names because the author might appear more than once with different dept. codes as well. Any ideas? Now, this is a CINDEX specific question. I'm to do upcoming issues of this magazine as well. I figured that since I had the other years in Cindex, I'd create an authority file of terms so I will be consistent. I've been able to print the raw authority list (using view/summary and then print commands), but this mixes in the article titles with the subjects and author names. Is there someway to eliminate the titles? They all appear with \b\B coding, nothing else has that same coding. Can I print this authority file to Word so I can format it, etc.? I tried once today and it eliminated all my words that were coded for ital. and bolded everything else. I'd like to try and save some paper since the index is for 6 years already. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance to everyone. I've been enjoying following the list, although I haven't had much indexing lately, I've been saving the files of ideas, etc. for future use! Mary Beth Kiss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Peregrim Subject: Copyright Dick, Copyright is indeed a BIG DEAL, but there are ways to get the materials you want for classroom use. Yes, it will cost money, but not nearly as much as finding yourself in court. In addition to indexing, I make recordings of university text materials for visually impaired students, and have spent some time investigating the ins and outs. I've also had quite a bit of exposure to copyright in a past life working in universities as both an instructor and in administration. Professors quite regularly require reading that is so broad ranging that it would destroy the finances of most students to have to purchase all 30 books simply to read one chapter from each! These collections of essays and chapters (course "readers") are submitted to the university's central services department, who contact The Copyright Clearinghouse, an organization that negotiates royalty fees/permissions/denials for the university. Sometimes, it's possible to get permission without a fee, particularly in the name of education (see Fair Use at the Stanford University Copyright Web Site below), but don't count on it. Granting permission, with or without a fee, releases the materials for photocopying, binding, and sale to the students (at cost, I believe). Sometimes a publisher denies permission - and that's the end of that. You simply can't use it. Put the book on reserve at the library if possible. This permission process, of course, takes time. I'll search through my materials to see if I have the address of the Clearinghouse and post it when I do, but in the meantime, I thought you'd find the following sites of interest: http://fairuse.stanford.edu/ http://www.benedict.com/ http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright (this is the U.S. Copyright Office) http://www.ilt.columbia.edu/projects/copyright/index.html Also: The Copyright Book, A Practical Guide by William S. Strong. Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press, 1989 Commonsense Copyright, A Guied to the New Technologies by R.S. Talab. Jefferson, NC, McFarland & Co., Inv., Publishers, 1986 The Copyright Handbook. How to protect and use Written Works by Stephen Fishman. Berkeley: Nolo Press, 1992 Be aware that copyright is highly ambiguous area that changes with each passing court ruling (keep that in mind when using books with dates like those above). The safest bet, is to consult an attorney who specializes in copyright law. Just remember that it is possible to do what you're contemplating (colleges and universities do it all the time), as long as you jump through all the right hoops. Hope this helps. John Peregrim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 09:32:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright At 10:16 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dick, > Copyright is indeed a BIG DEAL, Since several replies have taken this same tack, let me clarify: I know full well that copyright is a BIG DEAL. My question is: How much effort is involved in getting the requisite permissions? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 09:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Copyright At 10:16 PM 6/20/97 -0400, you wrote: >I've also had quite a bit of exposure to >copyright in a past life working in universities as both an instructor and in >administration. What about you folks not affiliated with institutions who are just doing your own workshops? If you wanted to do an indexing exercise, where would you get the material? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: ASI logo pins This is an announcement for all indexers who couldn't get to ASI's annual meeting last month: Gold lapel pins debuted at the Winston-Salem annual meeting, May 14-17, as a fundraising project of ASI's Heartland Chapter. Each pin is 3/4" high x 5/16" wide x 1/16" thick and replicates ASI's attractive logo, perfect for the business attire you'd wear while visiting clients or giving presentations. Made of a solid brass and nickel core with a 24K gold finish, pins can be purchased individually for yourself or in bulk as gifts for colleagues who support your services, clients who are appreciative of the work you do, or guest speakers at your ASI meetings. Prepaid orders accepted only. They are $10 each or $93 for a package of 10 pins (shipping and handling included). Make your check payable to ASI Heartland Chapter, and mail with your order to Diane Worden, Pin Rep 116 Dixie Avenue Kalamazoo, MI 49001 Heartland Chapter members want to be sure all indexers are aware of their pins' availability, so please pass the word on to your colleagues who may not be Index-L subscribers. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 15:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GERRI GRAY Subject: Re: Copyright Dick, You can check the LMP and find a telephone number in the publisher's listing that looks likely and call. Tell the person you reach that you want to talk to someone about getting copyright permission to use part of one of their publications and that person should get you the right office. If it is a publisher not in LMP, track down the telephone number some other way, but don't just write a letter until you know what the procedure is and to whom you should address your query. We had to track down an author once that we worked on for 6 months and we never did find the man. But another time we dealt with an author's agent and got an immediate answer on the phone. Work the telephone! Gerri Gray Baltimore, MD Loyola/Notre Dame Library ghg@loyola.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:45:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Terry Rustin Subject: Re: Copyright In-Reply-To: <199706211922.OAA29547@formby.tenet.edu> I once wanted permission from a publisher to use a photograph from a scientific journal in a presentation at a scientific meeting. I was asked to FAX my request to a certain editorial assistant. Within 30 minutes, they simply sent me a copy of my FAX with their OK right on it. Getting the name of the correct person to contact was the hardest part of the task. Good luck, Dick. Laura Rustin