From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 8-JAN-1998 15:22:03.13 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711D" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:57:47 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9711D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:14:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mixed strategy in subs I would just leave them the way you have them--in alphabetical order! And I would make a main heading for each amendment. Logic: people interested in the amendments aren't necessarily interested in all of them or in having them in numerical order. They're each a different thing of their own (love my scholarly language?). Some of the other suggestions people have made would be fine too. But I think making a see reference from the middle of a run-in paragraph with other see references at the end is way too confusing for the reader. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:22:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mixed strategy in subs Oh, good point Barb. I have also made a see also reference from Constitution to "specific amendments." Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell Hello fellow masochists, I have been working on an index from hell ( I have worked on others in the past, so I cannot truly call this THE index from hell), and I have been encountering a few problems. Perhaps some of you can offer advice or just commentary. I accepted this project, to index a very large, very important book in 24 days, letting the pub know that this schedule would be tight. The book was due to be about 1700 pages, now down to 1400 (whew!). The problems: The pages didn't get to me for the first 13 days, leaving me 11 days to index this book. I continue to be a full-time parent, so for those of you who toss this off, think about caring for a preschooler full time while running after him with a laptop and your page proof. I received mixed messages from the two contacts involved in the book. One says, do what you can, we appreciate it. Drop dead deadline is 11/24. The other says, drop-dead deadline is 11/24, and I want an index that fills X number of pages. I don't want a bunch of blanks at the end of the book. So, after working more than full-time since I received the pages, having showered every 3rd day if I'm lucky, I still need to pad by 600 lines to make the one contact happy. Do I just say "There's only so many lines I can type per hour." Do I bust my butt to find 600 more lines? How do I dig up 600 lines? I've cross-referenced, double-referenced, etc., and I need time to clean up this index. (Did I mention I got it with temporary page numbers, out of order, and missing material?) I'm exhausted, sick, I started this book finding out that my dear canine companion is dying of lymphoma and I'm wasting my time indexing instead of playing with her, and I'm whining. Sympathy anyone? Self-pity only goes so far:D. And, what do you do if you have to pad an index in a VERY short period of time? I usually edit as I go along, but this index is a mess. I'm going to need to do a good, solid end of project edit and clean-up. And, to be fair to the pub, it's one of my favorite clients and they agreed to a rather considerable bonus for making the drop-dead date. But no chocolates! Thanks in advance for all comments and remarks. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:35:13 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Subject: Re: the index from hell At 07:59 AM 11/22/97 +0000, Leslie Frank wrote: >contacts involved in the book. One says, do what you can, we appreciate it. >Drop dead deadline is 11/24. The other says, drop-dead deadline is 11/24, and >I want an index that fills X number of pages. I don't want a bunch of blanks >at the end of the book. So, after working more than full-time since I >received the pages, having showered every 3rd day if I'm lucky, I still need >to pad by 600 lines to make the one contact happy. Do I just say "There's >only so many lines I can type per hour." Do I bust my butt to find 600 more >lines? How do I dig up 600 lines? I've cross-referenced, double-referenced, >etc., and I need time to clean up this index. Hi Leslie-- This is a new one on me--a deliberately-padded index?!? That you must find 600 more lines to fill their blank pages? What happened to the integrity of the index? Suggest they use a larger point size of type with two columns instead of three and plenty of white space between sections. (Sometimes though, designers are fixated on their original specs and it takes a strong editor to get them to change them even when it seems both reasonable and logical to do so.) With the limited time, I'd concentrate on doing a really good job of editing what you have. How could you possibly turn in an index that is NOT well-edited and proofread? Sounds like you don't have the time to both pad and turn in a good, clean index. Sorry, can't see any justification whatsoever for trying to fatten an index just so there won't be a blank page. Nutso. As for their deadline, the pages were late and the production editor can only expect you to do the very best you can. The offer of a bonus is nice, but you must gauge how desperately you want the extra money if it is indeed causing you as much trauma as you describe. I would ignore the "contact" who makes the unreasonable and (to me) highly unusual request of padding the index and try to meet the deadline in the spirit of the "contact" who said, "do what you can, we appreciate it." That has always been the message from anyone of experience I've ever worked with, even under the most high-pressure situation for everyone involved. Best of luck, Sudsy (also working on a project due before Turkey Day!) =============================== Paper Pushers Editorial Services =============================== ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:42:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell At 02:59 AM 11/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >I accepted this project, to index a very large, very important book in 24 >days, letting the pub know that this schedule would be tight. The book was >due to be about 1700 pages, now down to 1400 (whew!). Been there. There right now, in fact. I agreed to do a 400-page computer book. It was rescheduled several times and finally came in two days later than the latest schedule, but they want it back on the same due date. Oh, and it came in at 700 pages. >And, to be fair to the pub, it's one of my favorite clients and they agreed >to a rather considerable bonus for making the drop-dead date. But no >chocolates! Alll bets are off if they don't hold up their end. Do the best you can in the time alloted. If they complain, remind them of the indexer's motto: Fast, Cheap, Good: Pick any two Dicik ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:10:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell Leslie, >>I accepted this project, to index a very large, very important book in 24 >>days, letting the pub know that this schedule would be tight. The book was >>due to be about 1700 pages, now down to 1400 (whew!). The request to pad the index by 600 lines is completely unreasonable, and this would be a good time to get assertive with these guys and tell them so. For a book this size, that might mean increasing the length of the index by what--25 to 30 percent? No way! 600 lines is only three blank pages--what's the big deal? Here's what you can do: Tell them that because of the tight deadline, it is more important to get the index into shape than it is to find extra entries. Tell them you will get the index cleaned up and edited, and THEN you will see what can be done about the length if there is time left over. This makes them feel like you are not ignoring their wishes, but it allows you to stop panicking about getting the index done. If you politely decline to pad the index, or at least tell them that quality is your first priority, your clients will respect you for it. If they don't, you don't need them. Tell yourself over and over again, "They need me more than I need them." Part of your job is to educate them, in this case by telling them that clients will notice an ugly, inconsistent index more than they will notice three blank pages. Good luck! Your sanity and integrity is more important than any job. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:17:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Help AOL Indexers!! Where's my addresses You people with AOL please tell me my address book is not permanently deleted. All those name I set up for the chat mailing list have disappeared. :'( Are y'all having the same problem? Or is someone totally against getting these chats rooms going? This is a first. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:27:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell In-Reply-To: <199711220810.DAA05058@camel9.mindspring.com> First, absolutely they need to send you chocolate... Sheesh, the idea of not sending some is disgusting! Seriously, though, I would call the contact that says "Do whatever you can" and tell him/her that you are getting mixed messages, the other person is saying they need more pages, and you want to TRY and turn in a good index without having to worry about an arbitrary length. The book is indexed as it should be indexed, and padding won't make it any better. I would say something about, "considering how little time you have given me to do this, I am going to ask you to drop the 600 line thing, and let me just get this done...." The blank pages are production's problem. They can up the font size of the index to fill some pages, and increase the leading between the lines slightly. Easier than writing bogus entires, I think. At 02:59 AM 11/22/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hello fellow masochists, >I have been working on an index from hell ( I have worked on others in the >past, so I cannot truly call this THE index from hell), and I have been >encountering a few problems. Perhaps some of you can offer advice or just >commentary. >I accepted this project, to index a very large, very important book in 24 >days, letting the pub know that this schedule would be tight. The book was >due to be about 1700 pages, now down to 1400 (whew!). >The problems: >The pages didn't get to me for the first 13 days, leaving me 11 days to index >this book. I continue to be a full-time parent, so for those of you who toss >this off, think about caring for a preschooler full time while running after >him with a laptop and your page proof. I received mixed messages from the two >contacts involved in the book. One says, do what you can, we appreciate it. >Drop dead deadline is 11/24. The other says, drop-dead deadline is 11/24, and >I want an index that fills X number of pages. I don't want a bunch of blanks >at the end of the book. So, after working more than full-time since I >received the pages, having showered every 3rd day if I'm lucky, I still need >to pad by 600 lines to make the one contact happy. Do I just say "There's >only so many lines I can type per hour." Do I bust my butt to find 600 more >lines? How do I dig up 600 lines? I've cross-referenced, double-referenced, >etc., and I need time to clean up this index. (Did I mention I got it with >temporary page numbers, out of order, and missing material?) >I'm exhausted, sick, I started this book finding out that my dear canine >companion is dying of lymphoma and I'm wasting my time indexing instead of >playing with her, and I'm whining. >Sympathy anyone? Self-pity only goes so far:D. And, what do you do if you >have to pad an index in a VERY short period of time? I usually edit as I go >along, but this index is a mess. I'm going to need to do a good, solid end of >project edit and clean-up. >And, to be fair to the pub, it's one of my favorite clients and they agreed >to a rather considerable bonus for making the drop-dead date. But no >chocolates! >Thanks in advance for all comments and remarks. >Leslie >Frank Words Indexing and Editing > Jan <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> Jan C. Wright Wright Information Indexing Services jancw@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw <>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<>==<> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell In a message dated 97-11-22 11:13:02 EST, you write: << Here's what you can do: Tell them that because of the tight deadline, it is more important to get the index into shape than it is to find extra entries. Tell them you will get the index cleaned up and edited, and THEN you will see what can be done about the length if there is time left over. This makes them feel like you are not ignoring their wishes, but it allows you to stop panicking about getting the index done. >> Interestingly enough, this is exactly what I did earlier in the week as my first response. They still came back with the request a second time, making it more specific (the 600 lines). Oh well, the truth is, I can only do the best I can. If it has to be Monday morning first thing, then it has to be the index I can give them, which, in my opinion is to go for quality, then quantity. Thanks all. And thanks to Dick for reminding of that great motto. I get caught up in providing all three. OOPS! (Can you tell it's morning? I've actually slept a bit, and sunlight can aid a whole new perspective and rid us of the late-night panics.) Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell How about suggesting to them that they simply put 'NOTES' as a header on those blank pages? Goes contrary to my librarian training to suggest to ANYBODY that they write in a book; but when I personally buy it, it's sometimes nice to have 'permission' (and space) from the publisher to doodle. Carolyn Weaver ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell In a message dated 97-11-22 03:03:19 EST, you write: << I want an index that fills X number of pages. I don't want a bunch of blanks at the end of the book. >> The only reason I can think they want X number of pages is because they are printing the pages up in signatures and that can be anywhere from 8 to 32 pages depending on the size of the book and the size of the press they are running it on. They are paying for the extra pages anyway and don't want to waste the space and also don't want blank pages because it doesn't look good. I would suggest finding out how many pages are being printed up and suggest reducing the index by that number of pages that would make an even signature. You can reduce the size of type, lead and any entries that aren't needed. If this is in fact why they want X number of pages. It would cost them less to reduce a whole signature rather than filling out one. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell In-Reply-To: <971122025958_1694080408@mrin53.mail.aol.com> >have to pad an index in a VERY short period of time? Tell them to increase the point size and leading. I'm very sorry to hear about your dog. I would be feeling the same way you are. Good luck. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://www/tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:54:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: two things In-Reply-To: <971122011431_-1305139108@mrin41.mail.aol.com> Hi all, One question: I have a book on business that throughout has Lessons and Strategies in little boxes but that are eminently indexable. I indexed them by subject matter, but I think readers will want to be able to look them up by Lesson XX as well. Strategy Number One and Lesson Number One, etc., puts them in alpha order, which I think looks peculiar, though technically correct. May I just go ahead and put them in ascending order, which would then also be in page order, or does this violate some Alphabetiziation Rule? It looks, from the responses to the Amendments question that it would be OK for me to do what I want to do. I'll be on line at this address for another 4 days (see below)----->. ----->Next thing, I move to Vermont next Friday. I don't have a new email address yet but I'll be posting from it as soon as I do. I plan to overlap accounts for a while. The only problem is that the new provider is one of the ones we just discussed that don't allow business pages at their lower rate. In order to keep my web pages, I'd have to either keep my exiting account for $30/month, or get the $50 account with the new provider that allows bus. pages. Eitehr way is $50/mo vs. $20 which to me right now is significant. I'm really torn. I might just let my web pages go. I've had over 800 hits in the past year, though, but no direct business from it. Also I was supposed to do a web page for the Med Sci sig, which I have regrettably and ashamedly not had time for, and now it looks like I might not be able to host it even if I ever do get to it. I guess I'm not really asking any question, just putting it out there. And now, of course, my directory listings are all at the old address. Not that I get tons of work from them, but one never knows. Anyway, I'll be back in touch with all my new addresses and info in a couple of weeks. See you all then. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://www/tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:30:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: mixed strategy in subs In-Reply-To: <199711220523.XAA04800@mixcom.mixcom.com> Muchas gracias to all who kindly offered suggestions. I doubt that I will use the cross-ref. approach, because there don't seem to me to be enough locators for each of the amendments to warrant that. I'm trying to avoid having to send the reader to scattered locations in the index. I'm leaning toward a typographical solution (Fred's or some other); each of the amendments will appear as a main entry of course. The author, BTW, likes the idea of grouping the amendments together (and somehow under the Constitution entry) and arranging them numerically. As for America vs. U.S., yes I'm aware of South America (and Canada) and that other countries do have constitutions. My only defense is that (a) I'm following the author's phrasing and (b) since South America is a continent and not a country, "American Constitution" (with a capital C) can only mean the Constitution of the United States, right? How do others feel about this? I don't really have any more problem with the phrase "American Constitution" than I do with phrases like "American flag" and "American as apple pie" (Mmmm). And since someone mentioned this, yes, I must go back and add "American" after "Bill of Rights," because the author does discuss the bills of rights of a couple of other countries, even though they have different names. Just so there won't be any confusion. The whole focus of this book is U.S. democracy, so I don't think there'll be much confusion in any case. Thanks again, everyone. It was so helpful to hear all the different strategies. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:58:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell On padding indexes: Makes my blood boil! I've been asked to do this before, and when I comply, it's as if I sent them my first rough draft. The user has to go through all kinds of unnecessary scanning and duplicate page numbers just because the designers want a neat 16 pages of back matter. My working partner just gave me an index like this to review. She had edited it twice at least already, but to me it was like looking at a first draft. She had warned me that she was trying to pad, but my instincts were just railing against the unconsolidated entries and far out terms that virtually no one would look up. Personally, I'd edit it as much as possible to the way you see fit. If I have space I do change my criterion for consolidation of subentries from 5 to 3 or 4. Other than that, I don't see it as my job to fill the pages just for the sake of it. Makes for a cumbersome reference tool. Besides, they're already making you jump through major hoops as it is. Just tell them (politely, with teeth gritted) that your best is your best, and the best for the user. I hope you're getting paid well for this. I have a preschooler, but she goes to an full day Montessori school every day. I couldn't do this with her in the house. Happy shower when it's over! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:02:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Duplicate information, choosing index entries for In-Reply-To: <199711220523.XAA04800@mixcom.mixcom.com> >As a reader, I absolutely hate it when an index lists two or three >locators for a topic, and they all point to the same info, just in >different places. I really hate that. Me too. I index only the first occurrence *if* they are all really the same. If the second occurrence contains all the information of the first occurrence plus some, then I index only the second. In this book on democracy that I'm indexing, which is a collection of articles by one author (presumably written over a long period of time), there's a great quote by Louis Hartz: "the majority in America has forever been a puppy dog tethered to a lion's leash." The author must love this quote, because it appears in I think five of the chapters. Similarly, a quote by H. G. Wells about leaders appears twice. In each case, I will index only the first occurrence (but, see last paragraph). As a reader, I would hate to see those locators and look them up, thinking that perhaps *some* of them are slightly different discussions, only to find the exact same thing several times. Now, in my situation, I don't think the surrounding context makes much of a difference; the meaning of the quote is the same in each context, and it's not a case of different applications of the same info. With a computer tip, the context might be very important, so you really do have to look at each case. Sometimes when I'm indexing the introduction to a book (which I do last, BTW), I discovered indexables that are repeats of discussions that appear elsewhere in the text (and at more length), and I usually put these in, because it's helpful to read them as part of an overview. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:51:57 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Australian Society of Indexers Editor Subject: Web Indexing Prize 97 - more info on entering Australian Society of Indexers Web Indexing Prize 1997 Entering Any one may enter. Closing date: 30 Nov 1997. Entry form: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/webpr97.html Please email or post a URL to a Web index you have created in the past twelve months or so. Please give your name, organisation and a short description of the index including its audience, the tools you used to create it and its size and scope. Prizes Prizes include free membership (and Newsletter) to AusSI, a specially signed copy of the Proceedings of Indexers Partners in Publishing 1995 and a year's subscription to The Indexer an international journal. Judges Dwight Walker, Webmaster/Editor, Australian Society of Indexers Steve Sunter, CSIRO Alan Wilson, Webmaster, Australian Parliamentary Library - winner of 1996 Web Indexing Prize Examples of Entries As an example, last year's winner the Australian Parliamentary Library was an index to the library's Web site. Other good ones were: a hierarchical index by AustLII which had links to related legal databases, an annotated list of online asian newspapers with maps and a list of favourite links with a keyword index and annotated index. Others covered were reading guides for ecotourism courses, century by century guides to world history, rocketry topics and online bibiographies of lighthouses. It needn't have links to our sites, but can be a bibliography mounted on the Web. Basically it needs to use the Web as a vehicle for publishing an index or tool for finding information whether the information be on the Web or have references to books offline. Using images and sound is a bonus and can be useful for displaying complex information such as maps. See last year's entries at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/auswebpr.html Any enquiries to: Dwight Walker, Webmaster, AusSI aussi@zeta.org.au 0412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 PO Box R598, Royal Exchange NSW 1225 Australia ------- Dwight Walker Webmaster and Editor Australian Society of Indexers, Sydney, NSW, Australia +61-2-91304206 (h) +61-(0)412-405727 (mobile), fax +61-2-97772058, ICQ chat id wwwalker, no. 4631678 (www.mirabilis.com) URL: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 02:32:04 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Duplicate information, choosing index entries for In-Reply-To: <199711230607.WAA06295@pacific.net> Carol wrote: >Now, in my situation, I don't think the surrounding context makes much of a >difference; the meaning of the quote is the same in each context, and it's >not a case of different applications of the same info. With a computer tip, >the context might be very important, so you really do have to look at each >case. Yes, I wished later I had said this in my post, in which I sort of mixed two ideas together. To clarify, if context is important, then subheads are appropriate (if possible). If context isn't important, that is, it really is the same information, I choose the best/most complete presentation as the sole recipient of an index reference. The question almost answers itself. If context is important, then it's not really duplicate information, because the context ^is^ information. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Duplicate information, choosing index entries for At 05:02 PM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Now, in my situation, I don't think the surrounding context makes much of a >difference; That's usually my experience with computer books. I'm currently working on one where the author is fond of saying things like: "Just to recap what I said in chapter 3, . . ." and then going on to duplicate (or perhaps summarize) what he said earlier. In this particular case, I'm under the gun and don't really have time to determine if there is some subtle difference in each one, so I'm indexing each occurrence, but without subentries. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:53:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: advice request/chat whining about the index from hell In-Reply-To: <199711230513.XAA24347@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I've cross-referenced, double-referenced, >etc., and I need time to clean up this index. Leslie, sorry to hear about your index from hell and also about your dog. Can you give your preschooler the job of giving the dog lots of loving attention? I agree with what others have said about padding the index, so I won't repeat any of that. If you can't change their minds *and* it turns out you do have some time to do *some* padding (maybe they'd be satisfied with simply fewer blank pages than they were going to have) perhaps there are some strategies for adding lines (hard to tell just how much cross-referencing and double-posting you've done): 1. Look at entries that have subs after them, take your thesaurus and find synonyms for the main entries, and list the new term with all the subs: e.g., if your index already has this: cars sub 1 sub 2 sub 3 sub 4 you add this: automobiles sub 1 sub 2 sub 3 sub 4 2. Add a long-winded headnote. Be sure to include all the principles of good indexing, especially the importance of a concise index. ;-) (I'm being only partly facetious.) 3. Instruct the Press to turn off hyphenation. Of course you won't be able to tell from your end how many lines that will add. That's all I can think of at the moment. I tried to come up with schemes that would do the least violence to the phrasing you've already slaved over and would be the least annoying for the reader. This sort of padding is still disgusting, and I hope you won't end up having to do it. Best of luck. Don't forget to get up and stretch. I'm on a tight deadline, too, due to an unplanned illness (are they ever planned? duh!) earlier in the week. Tonight's going to be an all-nighter. Then I catch a few ZZZZZ sometime tomorrow, edit the index in the evening, e-ship Monday morning. Click. Whirrr. Begin next project. Repeat steps 2 through 4. Warning, warning, indexer overload imminent! Failure to ingest chocolate will result in babbling (little-known Fourth Law of Robotics). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:21:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: two things Rachel, Always remember that we are indexing to serve the reader. Remember also my Rule #1 of Indexing: "There are no rules, only contexts." So if it serves the reader to have a series of entries such as Lesson 1 Lesson 2 Lesson 3 Lesson 4 Lesson 5 etc. then go right ahead and put those headings in numerical order, not alpa order. It will be so obvious to the readers that they won't even think about this portion not being in alpha order. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:09:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help AOL Indexers!! Where's my addresses Susan, Please keep me in your address book for mailing chat results. I'm not going to sign up for your ICQ chat to receive it "live" for two reasons. One, I can't figure out how to make the software work (probably a function of two) to receive it live without causing problems with my other software. Two, I just don't have the time. Too many things going on in my life in too many places to follow it live. But I do remain interested in seeing what other people say, in your summary. Larry Feldman NAXCIT@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:45:41 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names >From Christine Headley I am indexing a guidebook to Bhutan. I am staring at a name with four elements - 'Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje'. Can anyone advise me about inversion, if any? What rules should I know about? TIA Christine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:30:16 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Subject: Re: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names At 03:45 AM 11/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >>From Christine Headley > >I am indexing a guidebook to Bhutan. I am staring at a name with four >elements - 'Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje'. Can anyone advise me about >inversion, if any? What rules should I know about? Christine, I'm sorry I don't have the answer to your question, but it reminds me of my husband's story of looking in the card catalog at the San Diego State University library years ago where he was doing research on Tibetan Buddhism. He found a card which read: Chogyam Trungpa. See Trungpa Chogyam He found the appropriate card in the Ts. It read: Trungpa Chogyam. See Chogyam Trungpa The librarian to whom he complained was sure this silly student was just misreading the cards until she walked over and found the close-ended cross references for herself. She was dumbfounded. Perhaps if no one is able to suggest how to index "Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje," you can resort to the same type of cross referencing--only with more variants because there are four names under which to place entries--and send the unsuspecting user on a refreshing little snipe hunt. (Oh, just kidding, of course!!!) --Sudsy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 03:05:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Help AOL Indexers!! Where's my addresses Sure Larry, I hate that you can't join us live though you have such a interesting career. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names Christine Headley writes: >I am indexing a guidebook to Bhutan. I am staring at a name with four >elements - 'Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje'. Can anyone advise me about >inversion, if any? What rules should I know about? The Chicago Manual of Style is very helpful on = indexing personal names deriving from various = cultures and gives a number of specific examples for Asian names, but Bhutanese names are not = included. The author writes: "... an indexer's problems are best solved by querying the author whenever the more dependable rules of standard reference works do not answer a specific question." Good advice, I would say. Christine (a different one) ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:08:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Fontaine Subject: Re: two things In-Reply-To: <199711222116.QAA00210@pike.sover.net> Hello, Rachel. I'm relatively new to indexing, but I live in NH on the border of VT. Where in VT are you moving to? There's not a chpate for ASI here, but there is a VT interest group; I can give you a contact name if you need and/or like. About your provider: I use SoverNet, which serves all of VT and nearby NH communities. I haven't put up a business page, but it wouldn't cost me any more than the $20 a month, because I have a personal account. Don't know the differential for business accounts; no doubt that's what you're running into. Anyway, welcome to northern New England! --Nancy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nancy H. Fontaine, MA, MLS Professional Indexing and Research Services nanfont@sover.net * http://www.sover.net/~nanfont/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:36:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names Hi Christine-- It seems that Yeshe Dorje might be an honorific for a person and it also looks like many Tibetan last names end with "-pa." However, to be on the safe side, why don't you contact James A. Matisoff (email: stedt@socrates.berkeley.edu), who is the editor of a scholarly journal, Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area, if your author cannot answer your question? At 11:45 AM 11/24/97 +0800, Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: >>From Christine Headley > >I am indexing a guidebook to Bhutan. I am staring at a name with four >elements - 'Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje'. Can anyone advise me about >inversion, if any? What rules should I know about? > >TIA >Christine > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:34:40 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Re: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names I just completed an index to the second edition of a similar book about Tibet. A copy of the first edition index was supplied and the publisher requested that my new index should be created in the same style. The names were entered as they appeared in the book, not inverted - same as traditional Chinese names. The name you cited was among them. Lee Brower Loveland, Colorado Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > >From Christine Headley > > I am indexing a guidebook to Bhutan. I am staring at a name with four > elements - 'Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje'. Can anyone advise me about > inversion, if any? What rules should I know about? > > TIA > Christine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:00:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names Just index the Bhutanese/Tibetan/Buddhist names in the order given *in full* in the text. Watch out for instances where the person is referred to only by the honorific name... these also go under the full given name (usually entered with the honorific name as the last elements)... For instance, "Mahatma" was the honorific name for Gandhi, but you wouldn't index him under Mahatma no matter how many times that appeared in the text, would you? It only seems confusing because the names are strange to our Western eyes and ears. You might ask at your library for a reference book on Buddhism that has a good index or biographical dictionary in it--but beware that in some cases I have found faulty entries in indexes in books I wanted to use as references for name inversions. Another solution no one suggested would be to contact the author and find out what references he used. Barbara Barbara E. Cohen Indexing and Editorial Services 41 South Hawthorne Lane Indianapolis, IN 46219-6309 317/ 359-1219 317/ 359-1299 fax BECohen653@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:20:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Stephanie Olivo Subject: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. Hi, all. I'm still sitting here trying to get my ducks in a row as I wait for my first index in 15 or so years. I'm practicing with my Cindex, but I just read through the mail about sending indexes through AOL and how other ISPs are often more reliable, etc., etc. I did not understand a lot of that discussion because my computer/internet knowledge is really limited to what I have needed to ferret out for personal use. How soon will I need to understand about sending index information via internet and advantages of different ISPs (what does that stand for) to be an effective indexer. Can I get away with learning that stuff gradually or do I need a crash course? It seems that the big discussion about UPS vs. FedEx implies that a lot of indexes are still sent through those types of carriers. Is that so? I just sent out info to departmental secretaries at one of our local colleges asking them to post my resume, a flyer and a business card in a spot they think will be noticed by faculty. Thought reaching out to authors in this manner might yield some results. Has anyone else ever done anything like this. Is it true that going to authors directly isn't necessarily a good idea because of their budget constraints? Thanks for help. Stephanie Stephanie B. Olivo Olive Press Indexing Services West Sand Lake, NY (518)674-2761 SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:53:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: James Lasenby UNSUBSCRIBE INDEX-L myname -------------------------------------------------------------- myname Fermilab Kirk and Wilson Roads / WH-xxx PO Box 500, Mail Stop xxx Batavia, IL 60510 PH......: 630-840-xxxx FAX.....: 630-840-xxxx E-MAIL..: myname@fnal.gov -------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: mixed strategy in subs The trouble with "American Constitution" is that the precise title of the document is "Constitution of the United States" and that is the title under which it should be indexed. I can't see indexing "Richard II" under "Kings of England, miscellaneous plays about"? (I used to be an editor for a public administration study and advisory group -- they were Maniacal about the precise meaning of each word and phrase). And by all means, provide duplicate main entries for each amendment. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:48:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: two things Dear Rachel: Stick with indexing them by subject only -- those little sidebars always look weird if indexed under "Tips" or "Strategies". It's an artificial entry and stands out like a sore thumb. Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: working for authors I think that looking for work from authors through university departments is a fine idea--if you are competent at scholarly indexing, which is a difficult field to begin on. In the long run, even if you specialize in scholarly books, you will want to find publisher clients because they bring repeat business, whereas the author just has the one book every couple of years. But you might well get word-of-mouth referrals from them. Good luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:24:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. At 10:20 AM 11/24/1997 -0500, Stephanie Olivo wrote: >I did not understand a lot of that discussion because my computer/internet >knowledge is really limited to what I have needed to ferret out for personal >use. How soon will I need to understand about sending index information via >internet and advantages of different ISPs (what does that stand for) to be an >effective indexer. Can I get away with learning that stuff gradually or do I >need a crash course? It seems that the big discussion about UPS vs. FedEx >implies that a lot of indexes are still sent through those types of carriers. > Is that so? Stephanie, many of us still do use FedEx or UPS to deliver paper copies of indexes, particularly those of us who work for less technically-advanced publishers. Up until a couple of years ago, even sending an index on disk (via the mail) seemed incomprehensible to many of my clients--let alone sending something through the ether over the Internet. Now, I'd say that half my clients want indexes delivered that way. An ISP is an Internet Service Provider...a company that provides modem access (and an email address) to the Internet. You sign up with a firm like EarthNet or Micronet, and, for a fee of anywhere from $15-$30 a month you get your email account and [usually] unlimited access to the Internet, the Web, etc. Many of these companies also permit you to put up and maintain a Web page for your basic fee. Others charge a bit more for that, but allow you virtually unlimited space for your page and it can be a "commercial" page instead of just a personal one. Prodigy and AOL now have full Internet access as well. The difference between AOL and an ISP is that AOL is what is called a "content provider"--it has a whole range of services, chat areas, and so forth in addition to acting as an Internet gateway. My local ISP has a very small amount of localized content, but its main purpose is acting as a conduit so I can get onto the Internet. If you choose to go with a regular ISP instead of (or in addition to) AOL or one of the other commercial services, generally you will have a choice of email software programs. I use Eudora and am very happy with it. Sending an index is extremely simple. AOL and other commercial providers have their own email systems, and you'll need to use that method to send indexes if you use those services. The best tip I can give you is find an "email partner" with whom you can practice sending index files. It doesn't even have to be another indexer...just somebody with an email address who's willing to receive text files and open them to be sure they come through in good condition. Then you can practice all the steps and make all your mistakes without involving a client or a deadline. In fact, since I have two email addresses, I practiced by sending files to myself. It worked great. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:16:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: working for authors In-Reply-To: <199711250523.XAA05926@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I think that looking for work from authors through university departments is >a fine idea--if you are competent at scholarly indexing, which is a difficult >field to begin on. In the long run, even if you specialize in scholarly >books, you will want to find publisher clients because they bring repeat >business, whereas the author just has the one book every couple of years. But >you might well get word-of-mouth referrals from them. > I have sometimes gotten repeat work from publishers who first found out about me because an author chose me to index her or his book. Just make sure to ask the name of the editor on the project and make direct contact. Which you'd want to do anyway, to make sure you know what the publisher's specs are. At one point, I tried using flyers in faculty mailboxes. I didn't get any results from that, but I did have some success when I sent letters to faculty members I knew. If you're close to a university, you have an opportunity to go to a few functions, like talks that are open to the public, where you can meet faculty members and give out your business card. Anyway, what you're proposing is an inexpensive thing to do, so why not? Cheers and gook luck, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:08:13 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. In-Reply-To: <199711250523.XAA05926@mixcom.mixcom.com> >The best tip I can give you is find an "email partner" with whom you can >practice sending index files. It doesn't even have to be another >indexer...just somebody with an email address who's willing to receive text Actually, you might want to find two partners: one who uses a PC (DOS-based computer) and one who uses a Mac, because you'll probably need to use different file encryption in each case. I use a Mac myself, with Eudora. Some of my clients also use a Mac, so I send files using BinHex encryption. Other clients use a PC, and then I use Apple II encryption. I've also been able to send Cindex files back and forth with a buddy who uses a PC running Windows. No, I don't think you have to do all this immediately. By all means start with FedEx or UPS. The main reason I send most of my indexes via e-mail is that it gives me a little extra time to work on them. Last week that turned out to be very important. I was already behind on a project (read: hadn't started yet) that was due on Friday. Then I got a stomach flu! It was obvious I was going to need an extension to Monday. The editor had never received an index via e-mail before, but she was willing to try it. So I sent her a test index right away to make sure it would work smoothly. If I'd had to use FedEx, I would have had to finish by Saturday afternoon, because there's no pickup on Sunday. So being able to send the file electronically meant I could work through Saturday evening, Sunday, and Sunday evening--and deliver it Monday morning. When it works, it works. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: cookbook index lol!!!! Your kidding ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:13:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brayton, Colin (IBK-NY)" Subject: Re: Unsubscribe Don't look at me, big guy! > -----Original Message----- > From: James Lasenby [SMTP:jclas@FNAL.GOV] > Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 10:54 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: > > UNSUBSCRIBE INDEX-L > > myname > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > myname > Fermilab > Kirk and Wilson Roads / WH-xxx > PO Box 500, Mail Stop xxx > Batavia, IL 60510 > > PH......: 630-840-xxxx > FAX.....: 630-840-xxxx > > E-MAIL..: myname@fnal.gov > > -------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:08:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Deleting all index entries in Frame document? Hi All, Is there any way to delete all of the embedded index entries in a Frame document instead of deleting each entry individually? I'm using version 5.1.1 (Macintosh). Thanks for any help! Karin Arrigoni ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Indexers in Utah? Hi, all! I've been lurking for some time, coming out very seldom to make a comment. I thank you all for the information I've gleaned from you, and apologize for not participating more fully. That's about to change, however. I recently made the switch from full-time employment as a technical editor for WordPerfect/Novell/Corel to working as a freelance editor/writer/indexer. I have quite a bit of indexing experience, both for printed books and online Help systems, including computer stuff and some non-fiction. I want to expand the indexing part of my resume (don't we all!), and I'm on a hunt for more indexing work. This list is incredibly valuable in a lot of ways. I know there's not a local ASI chapter, or even a group, here in Utah. The Denver chapter seems to be the closest one, but it's 10 hours away--not very convenient at this time. I'm wondering if there are any other indexers in Utah, specifically in Utah Valley (I live in Provo) or the Salt Lake area. I'd like to know if there's enough support to start some sort of group. I'm also wondering about joining ASI when I have no local contact with anyone. I have a pretty good feel for the newsletters, directories, and other items sent from ASI itself, but I'm curious to hear from any INDEX-L members who are ASI members but don't live in a place where regular meetings are held. Do you feel your membership is as valuable to you when you're on your own? I'm sure it would be, but I just wanted to get a feel for what others think. Thanks for any comments you might have. Please reply offline if you think the information is too specific for the entire group. Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, and Indexer P.O. Box 2303 Provo, UT 84603 E-mail: kblack@itsnet.com Phone: (801) 374-0105 Fax: (801) 374-3029 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:51:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: New Indexers - A special invitation. For all you newbies out there lurking we have a Indexing Chat set up on Thursday nights 8:00 Central Time and Saturday Morning 7:00 Central Time.= Don =92t be shy we would love to have you. You may think that you don=92t kno= w enough right now but here is the chance to learn. Even your questions are a chan= ce for everyone to learn. Compare notes with other newbies on subjects like classes, resumes, indexing programs, contacting publishers, etc.. Experienced Indexers welcomed too. We need you to give us the answers. The chats are available for everyone=20 with any internet provider.=20 It is free!!! You just need to download the ICQ program from the webb pag= e: http://members.aol.com/bookindexr If you need help downloading or have any questions E-mail me:=20 Susan at Bookindexr@aol.com Also those with American On Line we have a Monday night chat at 8:30 p.m. Central Time. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:50:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Macrex Question I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit that I don't know how to do this; after all my years with Macrex, it just never came up before! (And yes, I've checked the manual, and if there is a way to do it, I can't find the answer there.) I am reworking an index for a new edition of a book I indexed last year. I have the old index in page number order, and need to scroll through the index line-by-line to change page numbers (most of the actual entries remain the same). What I do now is type the entry line number, press enter, do the correction, then press enter again...leaving me at the bottom of the page with a blinking cursor, waiting to type in another entry number. This takes so long...there HAS to be a way to move from the line I just corrected to the next line (or a subsequent line below that) without typing a 3- or 4-digit line number every single time. If someone has written a macro to accomplish this, or can point me to the page in the manual that explains it, I'd sure appreciate knowing about it. Thanks in advance... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:52:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: AOL problem: uploading attachments In-Reply-To: <199711192358.SAA14310@wdcsun1.usdoj.gov> Dick, It turns out that there is an answer to my AOL problem and the fault lies with Win95 - I have version B. Kamm Schreiner pointed me in the right direction and then he and I both came up with where to make the fix. Buried deep within the Control Panel are critical modem settings. The default for transmit was set for my computer at the highest setting which was too high for AOL. It really was choking on what was being sent to it. I changed the setting to the lowest and - whiz bang - the same document sails right through. Truly amazing. So, direct from Kamm Schreiner, here are the instructions on how to get to this setting in Windows 95: 1. Click Start 2. Choose Settings > Control Panel (You should now be in the Control Panel) 3. Double click on the Modems icon 4. Click on the Properties button (You might have to look around a little here. I think there are several tabs but only one has the Properties button.) 5. You will find a setting for transmit and receive. At least on mine, the receive was set at a medium setting and the transmit was at the highest possible. I just reset the transmit to the lowest, but Kamm says that it should be 56K or less. I can't remember if you can verify that easily. Hey, I only have Win95 at home and can't check it here. 6. And be sure to click ok to save this new setting. Wasn't that fun? What I don't know is whether or not the default settings change depending on what type of modem Win95 has set up for you. So that would explain why some people have no problem with this and some do. Hope this helps someone else - since being able to upload is critical to indexers in this day and age. Richard Shrout, also rshrout@erols.com On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Richard Evans wrote: > At 05:46 PM 11/19/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Is anyone else having similar problems? Or have any ideas? I have tried > >AOL help but so far have not found anyone that understands or appears to > >want to. > > I had the same problem when I went to Win95. Don't recall what the fix > was, maybe it just went away with subsequent AOL upgrades. Are you at the > latest level of AOL? Have you tried asking in the Members Helping Members > area? They are sometimes more helpful than the official AOL people. > > Sorry I'm not more help. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:11:57 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: william lamina Subject: Counting the pages - When charging by-the-page: What do indexers charge for? Is there a well-established standard? What about prefaces, addenda that may be indexed but very lightly? What about pages labeled "Chapter Seven". If the main body of the book has 307 pages, followed by 44 pages of appendices, and there are blank pages between the chapters, etc., would you just charge for the 307 pages, for 351, for only pages actually indexed, or what? Do publishers care? Have you got any complaints on how you charge? Please give me some ideas. Bill ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:00:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: thanks and finished (not with indexing, just with the index) Well folks, thanks for your support regarding the padding, the index itself, life, and especially my dog (I know this is an indexing list, but I love my dog more than my job). I got the index in and managed to pad it by about 400 entries. Not quite what was wanted, but...... And I suggested labeling the blank pages NOTES. I can't remember who suggested it, but it was well received. It is a book for Beta testers, after all. What a great idea. That way the testers can write all their comments in one place. Thanks. I also suggested disabling automatic hyphenation. That wasn't as well received. I'm not sure they quite understood it. Oh well. Thanks for all your suggestions. Now I get to play with my son and dog for a whole week before the next index comes in. And that one is a really pleasant suprise. An author I did an index for about 2 years ago (when I lived in San Diego) searched the Internet for my address. He told me he's gotten compliments on the last index I'd done and wanted me to do his next one, which should be ready to start right after Thanksgiving. Hooray. OK, I'm off to learn how to have a life. Thanks again, Leslie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: ssmckitt@iupui.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ssmckitt@IUPUI.EDU Subject: CINDEX for sale Anyone out there interested in buying a copy of CINDEX, _Indexing Books_,and/or _Indexes_(from the _Chicago Manual of Style_)? Please contact me off the list. vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Sharon McKittrick Fax & Phone 317-352-0615 ssmckitt@iupui.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:22:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: two things At 10:48 AM 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Rachel: > >Stick with indexing them by subject only -- those little sidebars always look >weird if indexed under "Tips" or "Strategies". It's an artificial entry and >stands out like a sore thumb. > >Sandy > Right on, and also they have this little thing called a table of contents in the beginning that lists all these in a fairly succinct fashion, making such an artificial scheme a waste of your mental energy. But absolutely index the subject matter! Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:02:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: padding an index Reading a publisher's manual the other day, I was intrigued to read about= how to pad an index. This is, as someone else said, the production manager's job. It shouldn't be the indexer's problem. But, I was intrigue= d to read how they do it. They suggest the production manager insert classified lists of things not ordinarily needed in the index, e.g., Modems: Baud rates: 1200; 2400; 9600; etc. ... or Animals: mammals: cats= ; dogs;...zebras. I was amazed. This explained to me why so many computer indexes have silly lists of things in the index instead of using see-also= references from the Broad to Narrower headings... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:22:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: Re: Duplicate info, choosing index entries for In a message dated 97-11-24 00:44:49 EST, Carol Roberts wrote (answering someone else) >>As a reader, I absolutely hate it when an index lists two or three >>locators for a topic, and they all point to the same info, just in >>different places. I really hate that. > >Me too. I index only the first occurrence *if* they are all really the >same. If the second occurrence contains all the information of the first >occurrence plus some, then I index only the second. I was very surprised by this. As a reader, I expect the index to mirror the text. It's not the indexer's fault if the text is repetitive, it's the author's (or, as in the case of Dummies manuals, etc., "not a fault but a feature"). When I find the same thing being repeated over and over, I just say "well, it's that kind of book." Also, with computer manuals, I've noticed that sometimes one of the repetitions has a tiny bit of rephrasing that suddenly makes a point clear to me, generally so small that anyone who understood the topic better in the first place would not have noticed it. If the info is indexable once, it's indexable the following times in my opinion. (Getting repetitive myself here ... sorry!) Moreover, if chapters gets revised (as I understand often happens) and one repetition taken out, what happens if the one that's now gone is the one your index entry was tied to, and you have to go back and find another? Granted, if you're pressed for space, some of these entries might disappear in the final edit, but it sounds as though Carol and others were talking about leaving some out in the first place. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:46:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: mixed strategy in subs -Reply Also, don't forget that each of the 50 United States has a constitution, too, but it depends on the context. If the US Constitution is the only one discussed in the book, I'm not sure that it is necessary to specify. >>> Gerri Gray 11/21/97 10:06pm >>> Carol: This Constitutional entry is certainly problematic, but the main entry should probably be Constitution of the United States. One visit to South America and I can never forget that we are not the only Americans in this hemishpere. Since this is a run-in index, my lesser favorite kind as a user of indexes ;-), if there are a number of entries under Constitution of the United States, perhaps you could have a separate entry for Constitutional Amendments or Amendments to the Constitution of the United States. *World Book Encyclopedia* in their great wisdom has used an indented index and Amendments is a subheading under Constitution of the United States. Bill of Rights has a separate main entry with the name of the country following the entry. (We are not the only country with a Bill of Rights or a Constitution.) To take my very small survey further I looked at *The Almanac of American History* by Schlesinger. The main entry was Constitution, no further designation, and Amendments is a subheading with 25 locators! I found another. In Garry Wills book *Under God*, there is an entry Constitution (U.S.) with no subheading for amendments since there was no need for one other than the separate main entry for Bill of Rights. In Taylor Branch's book *Parting the Waters*, there is a main entry Constitution, U.S. and subheadings for First Amendment to, Fifth Amendment to, etc. I don't know whether this is helpful, but I thought it was interesting. Gerri Gerri Gray Head Reference Librarian Loyola/Notre Dame Library Baltimore, MD Almost finished my USDA Basic Indexing Course. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:24:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. At 10:20 AM 11/24/1997 -0500, Stephanie Olivo wrote: >I did not understand a lot of that discussion because my computer/internet >knowledge is really limited to what I have needed to ferret out for personal >use. How soon will I need to understand about sending index information via >internet and advantages of different ISPs (what does that stand for) to be an >effective indexer. Can I get away with learning that stuff gradually or do I >need a crash course? It seems that the big discussion about UPS vs. FedEx >implies that a lot of indexes are still sent through those types of carriers. > Is that so? Stephanie, many of us still do use FedEx or UPS to deliver paper copies of indexes, particularly those of us who work for less technically-advanced publishers. Up until a couple of years ago, even sending an index on disk (via the mail) seemed incomprehensible to many of my clients--let alone sending something through the ether over the Internet. Now, I'd say that half my clients want indexes delivered that way. An ISP is an Internet Service Provider...a company that provides modem access (and an email address) to the Internet. You sign up with a firm like EarthNet or Micronet, and, for a fee of anywhere from $15-$30 a month you get your email account and [usually] unlimited access to the Internet, the Web, etc. Many of these companies also permit you to put up and maintain a Web page for your basic fee. Others charge a bit more for that, but allow you virtually unlimited space for your page and it can be a "commercial" page instead of just a personal one. Prodigy and AOL now have full Internet access as well. The difference between AOL and an ISP is that AOL is what is called a "content provider"--it has a whole range of services, chat areas, and so forth in addition to acting as an Internet gateway. My local ISP has a very small amount of localized content, but its main purpose is acting as a conduit so I can get onto the Internet. If you choose to go with a regular ISP instead of (or in addition to) AOL or one of the other commercial services, generally you will have a choice of email software programs. I use Eudora and am very happy with it. Sending an index is extremely simple. AOL and other commercial providers have their own email systems, and you'll need to use that method to send indexes if you use those services. The best tip I can give you is find an "email partner" with whom you can practice sending index files. It doesn't even have to be another indexer...just somebody with an email address who's willing to receive text files and open them to be sure they come through in good condition. Then you can practice all the steps and make all your mistakes without involving a client or a deadline. In fact, since I have two email addresses, I practiced by sending files to myself. It worked great. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:41:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Paper, again [amusing anecdote] I wonder if eucalypts are native the region? Or if the area will suffer the same fate as the San Francisco Bay Area did sometime in the last century: namely, eucalypts were imported -- from Australia? -- and drove out all the indigenous redwoods. The fool that perpetrated this scheme wanted to farm eucalyptus for lumber. He chose the wrong species. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? [I should look up that article to see what it says about this.] Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:06:27 -0700 Reply-To: kblack@itsnet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristen Black Subject: Indexers in Utah? Hi, all! Sorry if this is a repost, but I didn't see it come through. My ISP has had some problems lately, so I thought I'd send it again. I've been lurking for some time, coming out very seldom to make a comment. I thank you all for the information I've gleaned from you, and apologize for not participating more fully. That's about to change, however. I recently made the switch from full-time employment as a technical editor for WordPerfect/Novell/Corel to working as a freelance editor/writer/indexer. I have quite a bit of indexing experience, both for printed books and online Help systems, including computer stuff and some non-fiction. I want to expand the indexing part of my resume (don't we all!), and I'm on a hunt for more indexing work. This list is incredibly valuable in a lot of ways. I know there's not a local ASI chapter, or even a group, here in Utah. The Denver chapter seems to be the closest one, but it's 10 hours away--not very convenient at this time. I'm wondering if there are any other indexers in Utah, specifically in Utah Valley (I live in Provo) or the Salt Lake area. I'd like to know if there's enough support to start some sort of group. I'm also wondering about joining ASI when I have no local contact with anyone. I have a pretty good feel for the newsletters, directories, and other items sent from ASI itself, but I'm curious to hear from any INDEX-L members who are ASI members but don't live in a place where regular meetings are held. Do you feel your membership is as valuable to you when you're on your own? I'm sure it would be, but I just wanted to get a feel for what others think. Thanks for any comments you might have. Please reply offline if you think the information is too specific for the entire group. Kristen Black Freelance Editor, Writer, and Indexer P.O. Box 2303 Provo, UT 84603 E-mail: kblack@itsnet.com Phone: (801) 374-0105 Fax: (801) 374-3029 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:43:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frank Stearns Subject: Re: Deleting all index entries in Frame document? In-Reply-To: <199711252202.OAA07448@mail.pacifier.com> from "KArrigoni2@AOL.COM" at Nov 25, 97 03:08:29 am > Is there any way to delete all of the embedded index entries in a Frame > document instead of deleting each entry individually? I'm using version > 5.1.1 (Macintosh). If you can get the files to a PC or Sun Workstation you can use our product, IXgen (a set of marker creation and maintenance tools for FrameMaker), to very easily and quickly delete the markers. If you're then redoing the index using embedded markers, IXgen can be a help there as well. Unfortunately, we don't have a IXgen for FrameMaker on a Mac, but Frame's cross-platform file transfers work reasonable well (assuming similar font sets are available). You could also save to MIF and set up a batch editor to kill the markers, but I don't know what kind of batch text editing tools are available on the Mac. + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | Frank Stearns Associates | Developers of Tools for FrameMaker(r): | | mailto:franks@fsatools.com | IXgen, FM2A, Programmable Export Kit | | 360/892-3970 fx:360/253-1498 | Now shipping IXgen for Windows!! | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | http://www.pacifier.com/~franks (Email if web page access problems) | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:32:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Constitution I always use "Constitution, U.S." And I never use "American" to mean "from the United States," for the same reasons that someone else said--it disappears all the rest of the people in the hemisphere. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:41:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Re: Macrex Question Sonsie, >I am reworking an index for a new edition of a book I indexed last year. I >have the old index in page number order, and need to scroll through the >index line-by-line to change page numbers (most of the actual entries remain >the same). > >What I do now is type the entry line number, press enter, do the correction, >then press enter again...leaving me at the bottom of the page with a >blinking cursor, waiting to type in another entry number. This takes so >long...there HAS to be a way to move from the line I just corrected to the >next line (or a subsequent line below that) without typing a 3- or 4-digit >line number every single time. I use this macro, but I've never tried it in page number order: From the display that isn't the add-entries display (i.e., not the one where you add entries at the bottom of the screen), hit Escape, then Enter. You should now be at a place where you are all set to edit a line at the top of the screen. Do whatever you like to this entry, but don't enter it. Now record the following macro: Ctrl F1 (to start recording) Alt Fwhatever (whatever F key you want this recorded to) Enter + (the plus on the numeric keypad, on my keyboard next to the PgUp, etc.) Escape Enter Ctrl F1 (to stop recording) Now you should be able to start at the top of the screen, edit an entry, hit Alt Fwhatever, and go right to editing the next entry. Hope this works, Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:51:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: CINDEX & Other Wonders And a Happy Turkey Day to All-- I attempted to locate the source of the recently-mentioned -- I forget who posted it, sorry -- source of technical spell-checking software, presumably at INSO. The Website address that I had didn't work, possibly through misspelling, but I finally found them at www5.eps.inso.com. They may have good products, but the site is so horribly organized that I was unable after 20 minutes fiddling with it to locate any likely product. When I attempted to "search" the site the results were unhelpful. This is a good example of why I still dislike a lot of Windows software as opposed to DOS: cartoons and pretty pictures are no help at all if the program itself stinks. If someone else can find the spell-checker please e-mail me the address. CINDEX NEWS: While cleaning up my notes regarding sites to visit I came upon Leverage Technologies, which, while not manufacturing Cindex, seems to be a reseller. I discovered that the program is available in both DOS and Macintosh versions and that a Windows version should be released in 1998. For Cindex users this site also features ten or so accessory and add-on programs, many of which sound useful, as well as fun to play with. This outfit may be found at: http://www.LevTechInc.com. Cheers, dllt 75711.1537@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:31:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Constitution In a message dated 97-11-25 20:05:20 EST, you write: << I always use "Constitution, U.S." And I never use "American" to mean "from the United States," for the same reasons that someone else said--it disappears all the rest of the people in the hemisphere. >> When I worked as an in-house editor, it was our company editorial policy to use U.S. as the adjective form of United States, never American. We would have made the index entry for the U.S. Constitution "Constitution, U.S." as shown above for the very same reason. In fact, after years of studying Spanish lit in classes with mostly Latin Americans, I became quite used to referring to U.S. citizens as "estadounidenses" or United Statesians. My friends and colleagues thought it was quite pompous of us to refer to ourselves as Americans. It stuck, and I sitll do it. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Spellcheckers If you copy and paste this address into Netscape, it should work (it was taken directly from the site and no keying was done): http://www.inso.com/consumer/sciwords/sciwords.htm At 07:51 PM 11/25/97 -0500, Dafydd Llwyd Talcott wrote: >... The Website address that I had didn't work, possibly >through misspelling, but I finally found them at www5.eps.inso.com. >They may have good products, but the site is so horribly organized >that I was unable after 20 minutes fiddling with it to locate any likely >product. When I attempted to "search" the site the results were unhelpful. > > If someone else can find the spell-checker >please e-mail me the address. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:44:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Macrex: changing old page numbers At 04:50 PM 11/24/97 -0800, Sonsie wrote: >. . . I am reworking an index for a new edition of a book I indexed last year. >I have the old index in page number order, and need to scroll through the >index line-by-line to change page numbers (most of the actual entries remain >the same). > >What I do now is type the entry line number, press enter, do the correction, >then press enter again...leaving me at the bottom of the page with a >blinking cursor, waiting to type in another entry number. This takes so >long...there HAS to be a way to move from the line I just corrected to the >next line (or a subsequent line below that) without typing a 3- or 4-digit >line number every single time. > >If someone has written a macro to accomplish this, or can point me to the >page in the manual that explains it, I'd sure appreciate knowing about it. >Thanks in advance... > > =Sonsie= Dear Sonsie: If you don't have to change a lot of page numbers, the macro Heather offered will work very well, but if you do have to change a lot of page numbers you can speed up your work by using Group Mode (in which you can make multiple changes without having to highlight lines). You can do this with the index in alphabetical or page number order, and the new F12 command in Group Mode makes it possible to avoid a lot of typing by using as much as you can of the previous number grouped on. If the changes are such that new page numbers could become confused with old page numbers you can overcome this by 1) restyling all old page numbers (bold works best), 2) changing all that need to be changed to normal, unstyled numbers, and 3) after making all changes, removing the added styling from all the page numbers that do not have to be changed. Cheers! Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:26:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexers in Utah? Back in 1991 when I started freelancing there was no local chapter in the Pacific Northwest (and no Index-L, as far as I know)!; but I joined ASI anywhat to get access to the newsletter and all the other benefits of the organization. And I always felt (and still do!) that I get more for my dues $$$ with ASI than any other professional group I've ever belonged to. In 1992 several of us started meeting informally in the Seattle area for cussin' and discussin' (at private homes, local restaurants, and eventually at the local library -- anywhere we could get FREE meeting space). These informal meeting offered invaluable support for a long time, until about 2 years ago, when we finally got organized, elected officers, and evolved into the Pacific Northwest Chapter, covering Washington and Oregon. In 1991 there were about 40 ASI members in the two states; now there are well over 100, last time I counted, and we're averaging 25-45 attendees at our regular meetings. The moral of this rather rambling short history: join ASI, and if you don't have a local chapter, start one! You can jump in feet first, as some chapters have done, or just sit back and let Topsy grow. Indexers love to talk to each other, F2F or on the internet, and are more than willing to share experiences. And in today's cyberworld, geography is no barrier to active participation. Carolyn Weaver President, Pacific NW Chapter In a message dated 97-11-25 18:37:40 EST, you write: << 'm also wondering about joining ASI when I have no local contact with anyone. I have a pretty good feel for the newsletters, directories, and other items sent from ASI itself, but I'm curious to hear from any INDEX-L members who are ASI members but don't live in a place where regular meetings are held. Do you feel your membership is as valuable to you when you're on your own? I'm sure it would be, but I just wanted to get a feel for what others think. >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:33:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Macrex: changing old page numbers Michael and Heather, thank you both for the excellent responses. I've printed them out and will try them both. This list is terrific! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:16:01 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Paper, again [amusing anecdote] In-Reply-To: <199711252218.OAA27857@pacific.net> dllt--I'm wondering where you got this information. As a 30 year resident of the Bay Area (now residing elsewhere), my understanding is different. The redwoods were clearcut from San Francisco south to Santa Cruz and beyond to rebuild the city after the 1906 earthquake. The eucalyptus trees were in part an attempt to reforest. They are nonnative and have their own particular biosystem, and just like redwoods, not a lot else grows beneath a mature stand. Unfortunately, there is not much at all under a eucalyptus stand in California because the native insects and flora don't habitate well with the eucalyptus oils. In Australia, where they originate, they of course are compatible. Eucalyptus never took over in California, although they do endure well. And no, the native trees do not reseed under the eucalyptus. But let's be clear--people destroyed those redwoods, not invasive trees. And the stands of eucalyptus are few and far between, relative to the forest that was decimated. At 04:41 PM 11/25/97 -0500, you wrote: >I wonder if eucalypts are native the region? Or if the area will >suffer the same fate as the San Francisco Bay Area did sometime in >the last century: namely, eucalypts were imported -- from Australia? -- >and drove out all the indigenous redwoods. The fool that perpetrated >this scheme wanted to farm eucalyptus for lumber. He chose the wrong >species. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? > >[I should look up that article to see what it says about this.] > >Cheers, >dllt > > vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:29:06 -0700 Reply-To: ollielarue@sprintmail.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Olivia L'Heureux Subject: Re: New Indexers - A special invitation. Dear Susan, That sounds like a great idea! I am a newbie and want to participate in the ICQ Chat. I had neglected to download ICQ before because of the time involved to learn something new with all I have going on, plus I didn't feel I'd have much to contribute to the regular chat (the logs were fine). I have one question, though: When is the first chat? This Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) or next? Or this Saturday? Thank you for all of the work you do with the chats! I hope that lots of other newbies plan to join us, and other non-newbies too, if possible, to help out! Susan Wilkerson wrote: > > For all you newbies out there lurking we have a Indexing Chat set up on > Thursday nights 8:00 Central Time and Saturday Morning 7:00 Central Time.= > Don > =92t be shy we would love to have you. You may think that you don=92t kno= > w enough > right now but here is the chance to learn. Even your questions are a chan= > ce > for everyone to learn. Compare notes with other newbies on subjects like > classes, resumes, indexing programs, contacting publishers, etc.. > > Experienced Indexers welcomed too. We need you to give us the answers. > > The chats are available for everyone=20 > with any internet provider.=20 > > It is free!!! You just need to download the ICQ program from the webb pag= > e: > > http://members.aol.com/bookindexr > > If you need help downloading or have any questions E-mail me:=20 > Susan at > Bookindexr@aol.com > > Also those with American On Line we have a Monday night chat at 8:30 p.m. > Central Time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:54:36 SAT-2 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Davies, T, Tessa, Mrs" Subject: Re: two things > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? > They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html > > Tessa Davies Hiddingh Hall Library University of Cape Town Libraries tdavies@hiddingh.uct.ac.za http://www.uct.ac.za/depts/library tel. (021) 480 7139 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:36:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Counting the pages There are two main methods of counting pages. One is by indexable pages and the other is by finished pages. The finished page rate is less than the indexable page rate. In the ASI survey on rates, we used the indexable page rate. Sandi Schroeder ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:49:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Job Opening Attached is a job opening I was asked to post. Sandi Schroeder --------------------- Forwarded message: From: RHUDGENS@atla.atla.com (Ric Hudgens) To: sanindex@aol.com ('Sandra Schroeder') Date: 97-11-25 13:06:18 EST Sandra, Could you make your membership aware of the following job opportunity. Thank you. ___________ JOB OPENING Indexer-Analyst Non-profit association seeks accurate and flexible person with good reading, analytical and comprehension skills to index periodical and polygraph literature in the field of religion. Requires: master+s degree or at least 2 years of graduate study in a religious studies field, or comparable experience in the academic study of religion; indexing experience of some kind; experience with computers and data bases; ability to read and work in German, French, Spanish or Italian preferred--knowledge of Greek and/or Hebrew and/or an Asian language a plus. 37.5 hours weekly. Publishing atmosphere. Competitive wage and benefits. Send letter of interest and resume by December 19, 1997, to: Ric Hudgens, Director of Indexes American Theological Library Association 820 Church Street, Suite 400 Evanston, IL 60201-5613 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:31:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Chats Yes we will have a ICQ Chat Thursday staring 8:00 p.m. Central Time till 9:30. May be lite though because of Thanksgiving. These chats are more fun than work. Hope to see ya....Drop in when you can... leave when you must. You don't have to come exactly at 8:00. I had a address book crash last week and had to re-enter everyone on the Chat Mailing List. If you didn't get a copy of the chat let me know so I can put your back on the list. This weeks topics were: AOL CHAT 11/24/97 - Apprentices - Juggling Jobs - Repeats - Indexing Multiple Editions. If you aren't on the mailing list and would like to be just send me an E-mail with "List Me" on the subject line. This will be for both the AOL Chat and the two ICQ Chats. Please don't hit reply...change the Email address to: Booki ndexr@aol.com Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:23:28 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hineman, Joe" Subject: Re: New Indexers (ICQ chat is easy) Olivia wrote she was at first hesitant about "learning a new program" in regard to the ICQ chat download. I thought I would add that I found the installation a breeze. And while I don't know all about using the service, in practice what happens is that as soon as I go online during a chat time, Susan's machine is notified I'm online. She sends a "Join Chat" request for me to click "OK," and I'm there. With fewer than six people, each one has their own little window, and you see the typing of the others at the same time as you see your own. It's easy! Joe jhineman@acad.com ghinema@ibm.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:49:15 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SBO12441 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: working for authors Carol Thanks for responding. The idea about attending events is a good idea. Happy Thanksgiving. Stephanie Stephanie B. Olivo Olive Press Indexing Services West Sand Lake, NY (518)674-2761 SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:50:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SBO12441 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. Carol, That's a very good point about extra time. I did get very thorough instructions about how to send an index, so I'm going to practice with my daughter. Thanks. Stephanie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:53:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air Recently I heard a great a great index-related Fresh Air. Fresh Air is a nationally distributed NPR program with legendary interviewer Terri Gross of WHYY Philadelphia. The index-related story was actually sort of "guest commentary", after Terri's marvelous interview with Johnny Cash, who just announced he has Parkinson's. The speaker was Jeff Nunberg, a linguist at Stanford University. It was a humorous essay on the difficulty of finding stuff on the Web. I was writing as fast as I could since he was saying many things with which I have great personal resonance! He talked first in sarcastic terms of all the hype and hyperbole about the Internet as the "World at your fingertips" and how the walls of all the libraries would be torn down, than described how finding stuff on the Internet was like "trying to find your slippers in the dark among all the junk on the floor". He described a service offered by the Magellan folks called (appropriately enough) "Voyeur" (sp?) which allows you to watch in real time all the many search requests coming in from all over the World, and the often silly requests people make, many not repeatable in polite company. Things like "why is there a God?". He then described using a search engine and all the types of things that came up on it, then concluded that ordinary people are figuring out what librarians have always known: the difficulty of finding stuff when "all you have to use are words". However instead of making the next big mental leap and correctly perceiving the role of indexing, or "information organization" or whatever you want to call it, he seemed to instead bemoan the lack of some device for searching for things with just pure thought, though he never articulated it as such. Instead of embracing the richness, nuance, and diversity of language, the everyday trade of the indexer, and how an indexer can play a key role in information retrieval, he seemed to say what a drag it is we are "limited" by langauge in this regard. He spent a considerable time describing how the Internet porn marketers are among the few who apparently "get it" about the importance of indexing and how porn consumers are the only ones "who don't have to disavow themselves of the notion that the search engines can read their minds". I think it's quite possible that he, and many others who attempt to write critically about the Web, just doesn't have the word "indexer" installed in _their_ synapse sets, or if you prefer, brain. I am going to try to get in touch with him and start a dialog that may be illuminating for both of us.......Any thoughts to throw his way? Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:54:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SBO12441 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: ISP's; sending indexes via Internet, etc. Sonsie, Thanks for all your information. Because I have AOL I'll stick with it right now. Someone else sent me very thorough instructions, so I'm going to try sending things to one of my daughters to make sure I know how. Thanks again. Stephanie Stephanie B. Olivo Olive Press Indexing Services West Sand Lake, NY (518)674-2761 SBO12441@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:08:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air While words are rich, nuanced, and diverse (or can be, for lovers of language), they do put an artificial limitation on doing searches on something as wide-ranging as the WWW. One search dimension that has been neglected is space; that is, arranging and portraying information spatially on the computer screen to create an intuitive, graphics-based method of searching large pools of information. I can't express this very well, but others have -- see James Fallows article in The Atlantic at: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96apr/computer/computer.htm. My point (really Fallows' point) is that we may be neglecting better ways of retrieving and controlling information if we don't break out of a word-oriented approach to Web search engines. To use Nunberg's analogy, think of the effectiveness of basing your slippers search on your remembrance of where you left them last (near the bed, behind the door), vs. thinking to yourself, hmm, slippers, shoes, things for feet, don't have laces, not like a book... Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: indexer@INETCOM.NET [SMTP:indexer@INETCOM.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 11:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air > > Recently I heard a great a great index-related Fresh Air. > Fresh Air > is a nationally distributed NPR program with legendary interviewer > Terri > Gross of WHYY Philadelphia. The index-related story was actually sort > of > "guest commentary", after Terri's marvelous interview with Johnny > Cash, who > just announced he has Parkinson's. > The speaker was Jeff Nunberg, a linguist at Stanford > University. It > was a humorous essay on the difficulty of finding stuff on the Web. I > was > writing as fast as I could since he was saying many things with which > I have > great personal resonance! He talked first in sarcastic terms of all > the > hype and hyperbole about the Internet as the "World at your > fingertips" and > how the walls of all the libraries would be torn down, than described > how > finding stuff on the Internet was like "trying to find your slippers > in the > dark among all the junk on the floor". > He described a service offered by the Magellan folks called > (appropriately enough) "Voyeur" (sp?) which allows you to watch in > real time > all the many search requests coming in from all over the World, and > the > often silly requests people make, many not repeatable in polite > company. > Things like "why is there a God?". He then described using a search > engine > and all the types of things that came up on it, then concluded that > ordinary > people are figuring out what librarians have always known: the > difficulty of > finding stuff when "all you have to use are words". However instead > of > making the next big mental leap and correctly perceiving the role of > indexing, or "information organization" or whatever you want to call > it, he > seemed to instead bemoan the lack of some device for searching for > things > with just pure thought, though he never articulated it as such. > Instead of > embracing the richness, nuance, and diversity of language, the > everyday > trade of the indexer, and how an indexer can play a key role in > information > retrieval, he seemed to say what a drag it is we are "limited" by > langauge > in this regard. He spent a considerable time describing how the > Internet > porn marketers are among the few who apparently "get it" about the > importance of indexing and how porn consumers are the only ones "who > don't > have to disavow themselves of the notion that the search engines can > read > their minds". > I think it's quite possible that he, and many others who > attempt to > write critically about the Web, just doesn't have the word "indexer" > installed in _their_ synapse sets, or if you prefer, brain. I am > going to > try to get in touch with him and start a dialog that may be > illuminating for > both of us.......Any thoughts to throw his way? > > Kevin Mulrooney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? > They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:34:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air -Reply I went to the Fresh Air program page on the NPR web site (www.npr.org) and after a quick search found the date of the broadcast that you referenced (11/4) and the name of the commentator (Geoffrey Nunberg). He's listed as one of the regular commentators on the show. I'm sure that someone there could put you in touch with him. From the NPR page, go to Programs, then Fresh Air. My two-minute search didn't yield a transcript of that show, but I'm sure that they have one available-- I've found that NPR is pretty accommodating about such things! :-) Now back to work so that I can leave for the holidays... Happy Thanksgiving, all! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:33:30 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Counting the pages In-Reply-To: <199711252143.NAA23952@pacific.net> Bill asks: >- When charging by-the-page: > > What do indexers charge for? Is there a well-established standard? >What about prefaces, addenda that may be indexed but very lightly? >What about pages labeled "Chapter Seven". >If the main body of the book has 307 pages, followed by 44 pages of >appendices, and there are blank pages between the chapters, etc., would >you just charge for the 307 pages, for 351, for only pages actually >indexed, or what? Do publishers care? Have you got any >complaints on how you charge? Please give me some ideas. I usually let the publisher tell me how many pages it is--if I had a big disagreement, I'd negotiate (hasn't happened yet). In my fields, textbooks and scholarly, that usually includes everything between page 1 and the last page. If (some of) the endnotes are substantive and therefore indexable, all of the notes pages are counted. If a textbook publisher wants me to index back matter, all of the relevant section's pages are counted. If an introduction is substantive, count those. (Prefaces are rarely ever indexable, but I like to receive the pages to help acquaint myself with the project.) My textbook publishers have always counted the exercise pages, when present at the end of the chapters. Sometimes there are indexable items in them, in some books not at all, but I've still been paid for them. I've rarely had a publisher count out part title or chapter title pages. I have counted out chapter endnotes pages for particular projects. I have heard others give conflicting accounts, though -- this is only my experience. Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:15:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Duplicate info, choosing index entries for In-Reply-To: <199711260515.XAA26982@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I was very surprised by this. As a reader, I expect the index to mirror the >text. Sorry, but I don't agree. For the same reason I don't index passing mentions, I don't index exactly duplicate information. The index is supposed to supply *useful* information not blindly mirror the text. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:26:40 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Constitution In-Reply-To: <199711260515.XAA26982@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I always use "Constitution, U.S." And I never use "American" to mean "from >the United States," for the same reasons that someone else said--it >disappears all the rest of the people in the hemisphere. > I used "American" because the author used it--over and over again--and the Press chose not to change it. This seems to me an editor's call. If I had copyedited the book, I probably would have suggested changing it, too. So even though I agree that it should have been Constitution of the United States in the text, are those of you who are now complaining about the use of "American" here saying you would do that *regardless* of the terminology the author uses? I was always taught to follow the author's phrasing. As an indexer, I don't really see it as my place to make the index politically correct if the book isn't. Cheers, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:08:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Counting the pages In-Reply-To: <199711260515.XAA26982@mixcom.mixcom.com> > What do indexers charge for? Is there a well-established standard? >What about prefaces, addenda that may be indexed but very lightly? >What about pages labeled "Chapter Seven". >If the main body of the book has 307 pages, followed by 44 pages of >appendices, and there are blank pages between the chapters, etc., would >you just charge for the 307 pages, for 351, for only pages actually >indexed, or what? Do publishers care? Have you got any >complaints on how you charge? Please give me some ideas. > > Bill I charge for all the pages I'm expected to index. Light, heavy, doesn't matter. So for example, if I'm asked to index the preface and I happen to get to one page of it that didn't have any terms I wanted to index, I still charge for it, on the grounds that I did read and analyze the text. There are usually plenty of pages with more-than-average numbers of terms to make up for it. Likewise endnotes and appendixes. I do not index, and therefore do not charge for, acknowledgements page, bibliography, TOC, title pages (including chapter title pages). So, yes, I actually subtract for any blank pages the occur within the text. I've never had a client complain about the way I count indexable pages. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:47:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Spellcheckers I OMITTED AN "S"! Blast. Sorry. I can't copy and paste since I use a DOS program for my e-mail. [But, maybe, hmmmmm...] Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:53:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Cataloger/Indexer Job Opening From: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" "Library and Information Science jobs mailing list" 24-NOV-1997 12:49:19.88 To: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" CC: Subj: US - Cataloging Librarian - Microsoft, Redmond, WA Microsoft has an immediate opening for a Cataloging Librarian. This position is primarily responsible for managing the Microsoft cataloging staff and vendor outsourcing, all description and subject-oriented analysis (indexing) of material in IS Collections, directing cataloging workflow in IS Collections, and providing superior customer service by means of consistent, organized and open access to materials via the online catalog. Responsibilities: *** Manage the IS department full-time cataloging staff. Provide guidance in establishing and enhancing internal procedures for the description and subject analysis of materials. Drive the intellectual development of the online catalog classification scheme and the database thesaurus. *** Supervise the cataloging vendor relationship and monitor the quality and cost-effectiveness of production. Develop cataloging Requests for Proposals and evaluate fulfillment of key performance indicators for outsourcing. Generate and interpret reports on cataloging production and quality. Develop training procedures relating to the automated library system and policies for description and subject analysis of material by vendors. *** Oversee the flow of materials through cataloging and prioritize processing of materials as necessary in order to provide superior service to the Microsoft employee customer population. Develop policies and procedures for cataloging and library operational workflow. *** Perform original cataloging of complex or Microsoft confidential collections as required. Maintain a goal of zero defects. *** Evaluate automation tools and make recommendations. Develop and implement innovative solutions for improving workflow and integrating new tools into the workflow by making changes and enhancements. *** Collaborate with Information Services operational leads regarding procedures relating to the processing of materials and workflow. In particular, partner with the Acquisitions Lead, Senior Cataloger and Collection Archivist on workflow and projects. *** Interface with other Information Services groups on creative problem solving and the organization and analysis of all forms of materials and information. Identify future directions and policies for cataloging projects within the department as a whole. *** Maintain awareness of new developments (methodologies, techniques, technologies) in the field of description and indexing, adapting and integrating them into I.S. Collections processes where useful and relevant. *** This position has frequent contact with outside vendor cataloging staff and all members of Information Services, as well as contact with all levels of Microsoft employees. Qualifications: A Masters of Librarianship with two years related work experience, preferably in a special library in a high technology setting. The candidate must have a demonstrated knowledge of AACR2, MARC record formats, OCLC searching, LC classification and LC Subject Headings plus print and online resources, the Internet and personal computers. Excellent communication skills and the ability to manage multiple projects and work under deadline constraints are required. Management experience strongly recommended. Job Number: 97-0006677 This description has been designed to indicate the general nature and level of work performed by employees within this position. The actual duties, responsibilities, and qualifications may vary based on assignment or group. How to Apply for a Microsoft Position Please send your resume prominently displaying the Job Code to: resume@microsoft.com or Microsoft Attn.: Recruiting One Microsoft Way, STE 303 Redmond, WA 98052-8303 Once your resume has been received by Microsoft, you will be sent an acknowledgment via mail. You will be considered for the specific position(s) that you applied for as well as all appropriate positions as they open for one year. You will be contacted when there is an appropriate opening matching your skills. You do not need to submit another resume for one year unless your work history, phone number or address changes. We also have a 24 hour jobline with an expanded listing of opportunities. The jobline number is toll free 1-800-892-3181 or 1-206-936-5500 . If you have any questions, please email jobinfo@microsoft.com . Microsoft Corporation is an equal opportunity employer, and as a matter of policy, we do not discriminate on the basis of race, sex, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, marital status, Vietnam-era or other veteran status, national origin or disabled status. This policy of nondiscrimination applies to all protected classes. ****************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations. For individual * * membership information, contact: ifla.hq@ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:58:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jean A. Thompson" Subject: Job Opportunity From: IN%"LIBJOBS@INFOSERV.NLC-BNC.CA" "Library and Information Science jobs mailing list" 26-NO Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:04:51 -0500 From: Mark Tribe Digital Media Archivist StockObjects is a new media stock library that contains digital images, animations, 3D models and applets. In order to facilitate searching, each object must be indexed effectively. The Media Archivist is responsible for setting guidelines, developing systems and assuring quality in the indexing process. Specific responsibilities include: =85 developing indexing protocols =85 writing and updating indexing guidelines =85 evolving the taxonomy of the library =85 reviewing indexed objects for consistency, editing indices as necessary This position requires an in-depth knowledge of indexing & keywording systems for image libraries, as well as a developed ability to analyze, index and keyword images and other types of media objects. A degree in Library Sciences or Information Management, as well experience in the stock media industry, are desired but not required. The StockObjects team moves fast, is highly motivated, and works hard to create a friendly, supportive work environment. Please fax cover letter & resume to 212.406.1399 *********************************************************************** * LIBJOBS is a free service provided by the International * * Federation of Library Associations and Institutions. * * For individual membership information, contact: ifla.hq@ifla.nl * * * * URL: www.ifla.org * *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air -Reply Sharon wrote: >I went to the Fresh Air program page on the NPR web >site (www.npr.org) and after a quick search found the >date of the broadcast that you referenced (11/4) and >the name of the commentator (Geoffrey Nunberg). >He's listed as one of the regular commentators on the >show. I'm sure that someone there could put you in >touch with him. From the NPR page, go to Programs, >then Fresh Air. My two-minute search didn't yield a >transcript of that show, but I'm sure that they have one >available-- I've found that NPR is pretty >accommodating about such things! :-) Thanks Sharon for the tip. I'm a long-time Fresh Air listener so I was aware Geoffrey is a regular contributer. Just a word of warning should anyone try to get a transcript. I'm no prude; in fact I would go so far as to say I'm quite jaded, but I was surprised at some of the language used by Nunberg. None of George Carlin's 7 Words, but be forewarned. The content of the show has occasionally drawn the ire of certain Congressfolk, most notably Jesse Helms. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DP1301@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air Kevin, Check out Nancy Mulvany's web page http://www.well.com/~nmulvany She spoke (at the ASI annual meeting in Winston-Salem last spring) to some of the concerns Geoff Nunberg was speaking to. She has some pointers to some really interesting sites of which indexers should all be aware. Deborah ==================== Deborah Patton, Indexer Baltimore, MD dp1301@aol.com 410/243-4688 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:18:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air I recommended this article by James Fallows earlier today, and then went back and reread it myself. I had forgotten that it also contains some good (and funny) rejoinders to the question "Why can't indexes be done by computer?" I highly recommend it -- it's a quick read. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96apr/computer/computer.htm Elizabeth ___________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "McCullough, Elizabeth W" Subject: Atlantic article re: indexing Sorry - I "replied" to an earlier message about the Fresh Air show and forgot to change the subject line. Sorry for the confusion! Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: McCullough, Elizabeth W > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 4:19 PM > To: 'Indexer's Discussion Group' > Subject: RE: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air > > I recommended this article by James Fallows earlier today, and then > went back and reread it myself. I had forgotten that it also contains > some good (and funny) rejoinders to the question "Why can't indexes be > done by computer?" I highly recommend it -- it's a quick read. > http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96apr/computer/computer.htm > > Elizabeth > ___________________________________________ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:05:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Counting the pages I count pages the same way Carol Roberts does: If I have to read it, regardless whether or not any index terms come off of it, it's counted. But I don't count whole sections of the book that I don't have to read to index, such as adknowledgements, bibliographies, and sometimes endnotes. I used to charge just for endnotes that had entries in them (because they're easy to scan for substantive content), but I charge for them all now, unless substantive endnotes are rare. I don't charge for blank pages or title pages for new sections, etc. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:32:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Counting the pages Re: counting pages. As an experienced indexer, I concur with Carol Roberts. Anything you have to read is counted as an indexable page. If the page has a photo on it and you have to read the caption and add the page # into the mix, it is an indexable page. If there is a partial page of text, I also charge that as an indexable page. Carol wrote: << I do not index, and therefore do not charge for, acknowledgements page, bibliography, TOC, title pages (including chapter title pages). So, yes, I actually subtract for any blank pages the occur within the text. >> Yes, do subtract for the blank pages. And yes, do charge for the bibliography if you are providing any sort of author index or combined index where you read and use the bibliography. Always ask, or specify, when quoting a rate or accepting a rate from a client, whether that is per indexable page or for the total page count. Some publishers do use a total page count. If the rate that is being offered appears low, but the job is billed per total page count rather than per indexable page, it is probably a good deal. So know what page count you're discussing, and be flexible. Not all "per page" rates are equal! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:35:04 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judy King Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air Help! I am trying to unsubscribe to INDEX-L since I leave on vacation Thanksgiving morning and I keep getting mail. I hate to miss the discussion, but my mailbox will be full. Can anyone tell me the correct procedure? What I printed out when I subscribed does not work. By the way, I really appreciate this discussion list. It is to the point, not just a bunch of cuteness. I learn a lot and hate to miss. Judy King JudyKing@msn.com ---------- From: Indexer's Discussion Group on behalf of McCullough, Elizabeth W Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 11:08 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air While words are rich, nuanced, and diverse (or can be, for lovers of language), they do put an artificial limitation on doing searches on something as wide-ranging as the WWW. One search dimension that has been neglected is space; that is, arranging and portraying information spatially on the computer screen to create an intuitive, graphics-based method of searching large pools of information. I can't express this very well, but others have -- see James Fallows article in The Atlantic at: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96apr/computer/computer.htm. My point (really Fallows' point) is that we may be neglecting better ways of retrieving and controlling information if we don't break out of a word-oriented approach to Web search engines. To use Nunberg's analogy, think of the effectiveness of basing your slippers search on your remembrance of where you left them last (near the bed, behind the door), vs. thinking to yourself, hmm, slippers, shoes, things for feet, don't have laces, not like a book... Elizabeth ___________________________________________ > -----Original Message----- > From: indexer@INETCOM.NET [SMTP:indexer@INETCOM.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 11:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Great Indexing-related Fresh Air > > Recently I heard a great a great index-related Fresh Air. > Fresh Air > is a nationally distributed NPR program with legendary interviewer > Terri > Gross of WHYY Philadelphia. The index-related story was actually sort > of > "guest commentary", after Terri's marvelous interview with Johnny > Cash, who > just announced he has Parkinson's. > The speaker was Jeff Nunberg, a linguist at Stanford > University. It > was a humorous essay on the difficulty of finding stuff on the Web. I > was > writing as fast as I could since he was saying many things with which > I have > great personal resonance! He talked first in sarcastic terms of all > the > hype and hyperbole about the Internet as the "World at your > fingertips" and > how the walls of all the libraries would be torn down, than described > how > finding stuff on the Internet was like "trying to find your slippers > in the > dark among all the junk on the floor". > He described a service offered by the Magellan folks called > (appropriately enough) "Voyeur" (sp?) which allows you to watch in > real time > all the many search requests coming in from all over the World, and > the > often silly requests people make, many not repeatable in polite > company. > Things like "why is there a God?". He then described using a search > engine > and all the types of things that came up on it, then concluded that > ordinary > people are figuring out what librarians have always known: the > difficulty of > finding stuff when "all you have to use are words". However instead > of > making the next big mental leap and correctly perceiving the role of > indexing, or "information organization" or whatever you want to call > it, he > seemed to instead bemoan the lack of some device for searching for > things > with just pure thought, though he never articulated it as such. > Instead of > embracing the richness, nuance, and diversity of language, the > everyday > trade of the indexer, and how an indexer can play a key role in > information > retrieval, he seemed to say what a drag it is we are "limited" by > langauge > in this regard. He spent a considerable time describing how the > Internet > porn marketers are among the few who apparently "get it" about the > importance of indexing and how porn consumers are the only ones "who > don't > have to disavow themselves of the notion that the search engines can > read > their minds". > I think it's quite possible that he, and many others who > attempt to > write critically about the Web, just doesn't have the word "indexer" > installed in _their_ synapse sets, or if you prefer, brain. I am > going to > try to get in touch with him and start a dialog that may be > illuminating for > both of us.......Any thoughts to throw his way? > > Kevin Mulrooney > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dyslexics of the world untie! > > What do dyslexic agnostic insomniacs do? > They lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog. > > First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 > 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net > Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:40:02 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Macrex Question In-Reply-To: <880494274.115268.3@listserv.cuny.edu> In message <880494274.115268.3@listserv.cuny.edu>, Sonsie writes >I am reworking an index for a new edition of a book I indexed last year. I >have the old index in page number order, and need to scroll through the >index line-by-line to change page numbers (most of the actual entries remain >the same). > You don't say which version of Macrex you have. Assuming that it is some variation of version 6, all you have to do to scroll up or down one line at a time on the Inspect and Edit screen is to use the plus and minus keys on your numeric keypad (making sure that Number Lock is OFF). If, like me, you use a notebook, or have not got a numeric keypad, try using ALT with the up and down cursor keys. This works fine on my machine. Hope it works for you! Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England Polar Bears of the World Unite ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:23:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: analysis in deep indexing Here's a hypothetical question: Suppose you are asked to do a deep index. You have no line limit, but you are not asked to pad the index, either. You have as a main heading the name of a person, followed by 4 or 5 locators. Since it is a deep index, do you a. analyze all the locators, since it is a deep index? b. leave them unanalyzed, since there are so few? c. analyze or not depending on content? What if there are only 2 or 3 locators? One of the locators might point to a sentence like "John Smith, born in 1775 in Munich, had this to say about turnip seeds...", for which your analysis would give Smith, John, or Smith, John, 16 on turnip seeds, 16 I guess what I'm asking is if there a virtue in analyzing locators even when there are only a few when you are doing a deep index, or is it better to leave things unanalyzed? I have an opinion, but I don't want to prejudice the argument. Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: maria@usaor.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maria Subject: Thanks for the advice-- Is anyone from Pgh? Thanks to everyone who responded to my post asking for advice in starting out. I got a great deal of valuable information. I've decided to take the course starting after the holidays, and just try to do it as quickly as possible. Since I got several requests to pass that info along, I thought I'd give a brief idea of what you all had to say for anyone else who is interested: 1. The USDA course is valuable, but takes a long time to complete. 2. It's important to network and join the American Society of Indexers. (http://www.well.com/user/asi) Try to find local people. 3. The money you can make varies greatly, and seems to be dependant on how much time you can put into it and on your marketing skills. Don't quit your day job, at least not right away. With that in mind, I'm wondering if any of you on the list are from Pittsburgh/Western PA, and if so, is there any ASI or other professional activities in the area? If anyone wants copies of the posts I recieved, I'd be happy to email them. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:20:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Thanks for the advice At 02:14 PM 11/28/97 -0500, Maria wrote: >Thanks to everyone who responded to my post asking for advice in >starting out. I got a great deal of valuable information. >If anyone wants copies of the posts I recieved, I'd be happy to email >them. > First you had better get permission from the people who sent the posts to you before you send the posts to just anyone who wants to see them. One reason people send personal posts to INDEX-L posters is because many people DON'T want to share their information with everybody. The best thing to do is what you have done--summarize the responses and that is all. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:37:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Stephanie Olivo's Question On 24 November Stephanie Olivo posted a request for information. I have lost the original note, so am replying to the List. Stephanie-- Finding an ISP can definitely be a problem. Rather than repeating what other folks may have suggested, I will offer a single thought. If you already have Internet access [sort of oxymoronic?] you will find an excellent reference service at the address below; I compiled a huge list and bookmarked about 25 of them, then went to each ISP's page and saw what they posted. Have fun. http://thelist.internet.com/ Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: co-ops A while back some mention was made of co-ops. I didn't pay much attention at the time. However, how exactly does a co-op work and are there any benefits to such an arrangement? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:55:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: Web-Site How many out there have their own web-site to promote their indexing business? Do you receive much work by those whom have visited your site? Any suggestions on most economical yet effective ways to have a site? Kevin A. Broccoli