From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 26-NOV-1997 05:35:49.93 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710D" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:12:57 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9710D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 03:27:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Speed and Mea Culpa, etc. Leslie - Take a Hug! Two, if needed! I can't speak for others, but I also have experienced that immediate spike of panic when confronted with large, intractable, projects on short deadlines. Perhaps others are impeccably unflappable, and I admit that I wistfully envy those who can index 250 pages before breakfast and knock out 650-page books overnight. But I suspect that we all have had the feeling that we were at the edge of the abyss, without a clue as to how the job would get done properly and on time. BTW, I mentioned this in my piece in KeyWords a couple of issues back... So please believe that your apprehension was not a defect in your will, your competence or your character. Seems to me it is the normal response of a thinking individual to a difficult and possibly threatening prospect. The difference, in my view, between a healthy response and a neurotic one is not the spike of anxiety; rather, it is whether one gets on with the job or huddles in the corner wrapped in fear. Turning a job back because it simply can't be done properly under the given constraints also could be deemed sensible, not wimpy. It takes a lot of courage to be able to say "No, I can't do that." As I said in the KeyWords piece, indexers are the only professionals in the book-production cycle who are expected to perform flawlessly first crack out of the box, at minumum fee, under difficult or impossible time constraints, often on unfamiliar subjects, and usually with no useful feedback from editor or author. This is a helluva way to earn a living, Leslie. Don't underestimate the difficulty of your chosen profession! As I have read your postings over the past months I somehow have formed the opinion that you are an intelligent, caring and sensible critter. An estimate based on inadequate information, to be sure, but I have formed different opinions of others on as little input. So, unfurl your banners, put a flower in your helmet, sing a brave little song (even if your voice sometimes quavers) and march out to slay the dragon. Or at least to tame the dragon - - I am against the thoughtless slaying of dragons... Remember: DON'T BE SCARED! A few of us might really be ten feet tall, but must of us are ordinary folks - - much like the Wizard of Oz - - common mortals working the levers from behind the screens. Experience and natural skills do make a difference, but the General Truth is that you are not much different from the rest of us. Or, rather, that if you strip away the masks and the hubris, the rest of us are pretty much just like you! So, as I said, take a hug! You didn't sow the dragon's teeth when you raised that question. None of the respondents was required to be snarfy or acccusatory, or to feel that his/her integrity was impugned. We respond out of our own spirits, shaped by our experiences, our strengths and our fears. You might have opened a door by posting that question, but you surely did not require anyone to step through. Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:19:34 +0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper >From Christine Headley This thread is taking rather a depressing turn for back-of-the-book indexers! How do you index a self-printed book? Or does every reader index for themselves? If the cost of buying books is so great that people download them instead, how are the publisher and author reimbursed for their work? I agree with the person who said how can it be cheap to need $2000 equipment in order to access the material, and the person who queried the longevity of the new media. A CD-rom isn't much good on its own. What is more, of the 6 billion people on this earth, how many have 24-hour access to a computer? Even if 'more than 5%' of world knowledge is available electronically, what good is it to the have-nots? I don't suppose Indian typesetters have computers at home for their children to use - even if they do, rural India doesn't! Acquisition of a computer must come after an electricity supply, but should it be before or after clean water? While it may turn out okay for Index-ellers, the scenario doesn't hold out much hope for the rest of civilisation. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:29:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Controlled Vocabulary Developer Assistant - Corbis Corporation I know this question is always asked, but....could this be a work-at-home situation? Same question for the Wilson ad. Should we just go ahead and contact the company if we want to know? TIA Chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:35:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Speed and Mea Culpa, etc. Bob, So well said... thanks for your post. I think I'll keep it and read it when appropriate (like, say, ummm, once a day?). Courage, I am learning, is not the absence of fear; it's having the fear and taking action anyway. Hell, if I sat around (or huddled in a corner, as you said) and waited for the fear to go away before I started doing something, I'd be sitting in that corner the rest of my life. I also liked what you said about doors opening, but nobody being pushed through. Yes, I mean me :-). Thanks for the reminder that sometimes s/he who hesitates (to post, to argue, to reply, to engage, etc.) is happier and calmer. I've posted to this list before about the feeling of panic that tends to sweep over me about three-quarters of the way through a job (and I've seen some other postings along similar lines), when suddenly the whole index looks like a big jumble of words and letters that will NEVER coalesce into anything readable, let alone usable. The sweat, and the fear, gets bad at that point. What I've learned to do is take a break (a short one, or I convince myself that going on will be useless:-), walk around the block, or even just up and down the driveway if that's all I can manage, then brush my teeth, wash my face, eat something, and talk to someone who knows what I'm going through (another indexer, either live or on the list.) The walking, brushing, and washing make me feel like I'm starting the day over (even at midnight), and ANYTHING is possible on a new day, ya know. The key for me is to avoid sitting paralyzed with fear, as Bob said. My favorite panic-relieving foods used to be chocolate chip cookies, and guacamole on crusty garlic bread (my waistline and blood pressure can attest to the efficacy of THAT treatment). This time of year it's hot, spicy herb teas and crunchy toast or crackers with peanut butter. Very hot spicy black beans and chilis, with soothing brown rice on the side, also do it for me! Sometimes I need a calming tea (I like chamomile or Celestial Seasoning's Tension Tamer) to go with the spicy or crunchy food in order to balance me little better. Anyway, that's all the menu items for today! Thanks again, Bob, for your post. Ann Norcross (who is getting ready to go eat greasy diner food for lunch, so don't think I always practice these techniques that I know work for me. Wouldn't want to get TOO healthy or TOO balanced, right?) ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > > Leslie - > > Take a Hug! Two, if needed! > > I can't speak for others, but I also have experienced that immediate spike of > panic when confronted with large, intractable, projects on short deadlines. > Perhaps others are impeccably unflappable, and I admit that I wistfully > envy those who can index 250 pages before breakfast and knock out 650-page > books overnight. But I suspect that we all have had the feeling that we were > at the edge of the abyss, without a clue as to how the job would get done > properly and on time. BTW, I mentioned this in my piece in KeyWords a couple > of issues back... > > So please believe that your apprehension was not a defect in your will, your > competence or your character. Seems to me it is the normal response of a > thinking individual to a difficult and possibly threatening prospect. The > difference, in my view, between a healthy response and a neurotic one is not > the spike of anxiety; rather, it is whether one gets on with the job or > huddles in the corner wrapped in fear. Turning a job back because it simply > can't be done properly under the given constraints also could be deemed > sensible, not wimpy. It takes a lot of courage to be able to say "No, I > can't do that." > > As I said in the KeyWords piece, indexers are the only professionals in the > book-production cycle who are expected to perform flawlessly first crack out > of the box, at minumum fee, under difficult or impossible time constraints, > often on unfamiliar subjects, and usually with no useful feedback from editor > or author. This is a helluva way to earn a living, Leslie. Don't > underestimate the difficulty of your chosen profession! > > As I have read your postings over the past months I somehow have formed the > opinion that you are an intelligent, caring and sensible critter. An > estimate based on inadequate information, to be sure, but I have formed > different opinions of others on as little input. So, unfurl your banners, > put a flower in your helmet, sing a brave little song (even if your voice > sometimes quavers) and march out to slay the dragon. Or at least to tame the > dragon - - I am against the thoughtless slaying of dragons... > > Remember: DON'T BE SCARED! A few of us might really be ten feet tall, but > must of us are ordinary folks - - much like the Wizard of Oz - - common > mortals working the levers from behind the screens. Experience and natural > skills do make a difference, but the General Truth is that you are not much > different from the rest of us. Or, rather, that if you strip away the masks > and the hubris, the rest of us are pretty much just like you! > > So, as I said, take a hug! You didn't sow the dragon's teeth when you raised > that question. None of the respondents was required to be snarfy or > acccusatory, or to feel that his/her integrity was impugned. We respond out > of our own spirits, shaped by our experiences, our strengths and our fears. > You might have opened a door by posting that question, but you surely did > not require anyone to step through. > > Best wishes, > > Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Speed and Mea Culpa, etc. Ann, Bob, all -- Re courage, remember Ameila Earhart's poem: Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not, knows no release From little things: Knows not the livid loneliness of fear, Nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear The sound of wings. How can Life grant us boon of living, compensate For dull grey ugliness and pregnant hate Unless we dare The soul's dominion? Each time we make a choice, we pay With courage to behold resistless day, And count it fair. From *20 Hrs. 40 Min.: Our Flight in the Friendship* (Grosset & Dunlap,1928). Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:14:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: Value of index Pat: Re your recent question on quotes on the value of indexes, have y= ou checked out general style guides for editors and publishers? For example,= CMS 14th, p. 703: "Every serious book of nonfiction should have an index = if it is to achieve its maximum usefulness." Or Words into Type, 3rd ed., p.= 76: "The value of any book of nonfiction will be enhanced with a well-prepared index; without one, although the text may contain a wealth = of information, the subject matter is largely inaccessible." Periodicals such as Publisher's Weekly or the Journal of the American Society for Information Science might be sources. Of course, you= can conduct a general search on the Internet. Somehow I have a feeling that you know all this already and I didn't say anything new. Chris Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:39:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Quotes on the Value of Indexes Julia Child says in the Forward and Acknowledgments of her book, The Way to Cook (Knopf, c1989, 12th printing 1996), "A reference or teaching book is only as good as its index." ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:23:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: names in history books In-Reply-To: <199710220316.UAA29197@mx2.u.washington.edu> Durer, A, 234 In Italy, 235 Sounds OK to me. I would not go beyond sub-subentries, however, unless forced. Durer, A, 235; In Italy, 235-39, 270-312 (notebooks, 123-45; sketches, 238; views on Venice, 236) Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710220959.CAA22509@mx2.u.washington.edu> 1. HTML, no index. 2. Publishers will still control the download site and the CD-ROMS. 3. What makes you think authors get anything anyway? Maybe for bestsellers. I get royalties on mine but spent a solid year producing the camera-ready copy. Result: net loss. 4. As for the $2,000 worth of equipment you need. That cost is dropping fast. 99% of those in need of the advanced books have access to computers, either at home, or through institutions. The poor lack the education to read them even if they can afford them. As for other books, if they become $250.00 a pop and the new network computers are sold at the same price... 5. Publishing on paper will still continued in Third World countries were labor is dirt cheap. However, the books themselves will probably be produced from CD-ROM and downloaded copies, pirated that is. Paul D. Buell On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > >From Christine Headley > > This thread is taking rather a depressing turn for back-of-the-book > indexers! How do you index a self-printed book? Or does every reader > index for themselves? > > If the cost of buying books is so great that people download them > instead, how are the publisher and author reimbursed for their work? > > I agree with the person who said how can it be cheap to need $2000 > equipment in order to access the material, and the person who queried > the longevity of the new media. A CD-rom isn't much good on its own. > > What is more, of the 6 billion people on this earth, how many have > 24-hour access to a computer? Even if 'more than 5%' of world knowledge > is available electronically, what good is it to the have-nots? > > I don't suppose Indian typesetters have computers at home for their > children to use - even if they do, rural India doesn't! Acquisition of > a computer must come after an electricity supply, but should it be > before or after clean water? > > While it may turn out okay for Index-ellers, the scenario doesn't hold > out much hope for the rest of civilisation. > > Christine > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:32:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710220959.CAA22509@mx2.u.washington.edu> One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the world's forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic books. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:03:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply Once again, I think we may be talking apples and oranges here. Paul is obviously talking about expensive, exclusive, scholarly books on very specific topics which have a very limited audience. The wave of the future may very well be electronic for these kind of books. However, isn't it interesting what our different experiences bring to this? I work almost exclusively with legal publishing, and I can assure everyone that while there is a bright future for electronic versions of a lot of our print materials, the paper products aren't going anywhere anytime soon. It all has to do with the intended audience and consumer base, and what they will and will not accept. Lawyers and judges tend to be a conservative lot, and while some of them have both print AND electronic versions of certain core materials, almost none of them have exclusively electronic libraries (I only say almost because if I say none of them, I'm sure someone will respond with a contradiction!). I think that the wave of the future will be for publishers and information providers to be able to provide their materials to their customers in whatever format the customer desires: Print, online, CD-ROM, or whatever. That's certainly the direction that many of the big publishers are taking. It comes back to the law of Supply and Demand: As long as there is a market for printed products-- and that doesn't appear to be going away-- there will always be someone who will provide them. Whether or not it's the same people who provide them now remains to be seen. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:04:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply Recycled paper is a wonderful thing! :-) >>> P. Buell 10/22/97 12:32pm >>> One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the world's forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic books. Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Speed and Mea Culpa, etc. (tacky, tacky... following up myself... oh well) I wrote: > I also liked what you said about doors opening, but nobody being > pushed through. Yes, I mean me :-). Thanks for the reminder that > sometimes s/he who hesitates (to post, to argue, to reply, to engage, > etc.) is happier and calmer. It's been pointed out to me that I wasn't clear above. What I meant was: during the speed discussion, I didn't hesitate; I rushed in; I wish I hadn't; I would have been happier and calmer had I not hurled myself headlong through THAT particular door. Ann (returning you to your regularly scheduled rant.. err.. discussion) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:42:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Reviews of Hyperindex? Dear listmembers, At this weekend's Twin Cities Chapter meeting of ASI, we're going to demo, or at least talk about, a lot of new standalone indexing programs. One that we're just going to talk about is HyperIndex for the Mac (a demo was difficult for us to arrange) and I agreed to try to retrieve reviews of the program. However, most of the mail I thought I had saved has disappeared. If anyone has old messages on the subject of HyperIndex and would be willing to forward them to me, I'd be most grateful. Also, if you're a HyperIndex user and would be willing to write a few words to me about the program's ease of use relative to other programs, that would be great. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:41:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: names in history books In-Reply-To: <199710220316.UAA23950@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 11:19 AM 10/22/97 -0400, Kevin (with the delicious last name) wrote: >A particular person is discussed throughout a history book that I am >indexing, and at times I have led the reader to discussions in the text >regarding his marriage, death, and some other important events in their >life by means of subentries. Other times his actions are discussed in >conjunction with what he did in certain cities. I would like to make >reference to these events by such subentries as "at New York" or >something similiar. Of course the main entry would be the person's name. > However, it has been said that it is not advisable to have subentries >with only one reference locator and that is what would result from doing >this. Yet, I cannot make reference to these other events without doing >so. Hi Kevin, Who said that it's not advisable to have subentries with only one reference locator? I do it all the time. Are you sure that you don't have this confused with single (orphaned) subentries (which tend to look rather ugly unless subsumed onto the same line with the main entry) or multiple subentries with locators on the same page (often a sign of overanalysis)? IMHO, unless space is an issue, analyzing a subentry with a single locator is user-friendly. The reader can immediately see if the discussion at that particular location is of potential interest without having to waste time flipping to the text. (I work under the assumption that everyone is as impatient as I am and doesn't want to spend a moment more than necessary trying to find a given piece of information. Most indexers and maybe most readers have longer attention spans, I admit.) >I also thought of just posting the reference locators right after >his name and then follow that with the other subentries I already >mentioned regarding other aspects of his life. Any ideas? Aha! You innocently gave me an opportunity to bang one of my favorite drums--unanalyzed locators off a main heading followed by subentries. ;-D The last time I posted my disagreement with this practice, Michael Brackney posted a very reasonable rebuttal to my contention that it forces the reader to second-guess the indexer. (I had my fall cardiac adventure the day after posting that and never got a chance to continue the discussion, but this is a better opportunity. ;-D) If I remember correctly, he said that it's useful for general discussions that would otherwise be analyzed as "described", "overview", etc. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Michael.) The assumption here is that the reader knows that this is what the indexer intends by these unanalyzed locators (something I don't take for granted when I see them in indexes ;-D). However, Kevin, you're suggesting it as an alternative to analyzing certain events of a subject's life while analyzing others. So, you're nicely illustrating why I disagree with that practice, which is that readers often don't have a clue of what distinguishes unanalyzed locators from analyzed locators because some indexers may mean one thing by them while others may have other uses for them. ;-D BTW, are you sure that analyzing these events in terms of which cities they occurred in is the most helpful way to do it? I'd reference the city only if the passage focusses on events that happened while the individual was in a particular city (with the city being sort of emblematic of a particular stage in the subject's life). However, if the city is pretty secondary to the event, just happening to be the venue where the event occurred, I'd list the event. If necessary, I'd tack another locator onto another subentry describing a similar event in the subject's life or, if the book/index are extremely detailed, break the locales of the similar events out as subsubentries (though I doubt it would be necessary to go this far). Otherwise, you may end up with a really nonparallel type of structure in your subentries and a wobbly conceptual hierarchy. But take everything I say here with a grain of salt (substitute), because, to be honest, history books aren't my indexing specialty. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:20:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply In-Reply-To: <9710221709.AA13543@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Sharon: very good point. And lawyers and judges can afford to pay the piper too! Paul D. Buell On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Sharon Wright wrote: > Once again, I think we may be talking apples and > oranges here. Paul is obviously talking about > expensive, exclusive, scholarly books on very specific > topics which have a very limited audience. The wave > of the future may very well be electronic for these kind > of books. > > However, isn't it interesting what our different > experiences bring to this? I work almost exclusively > with legal publishing, and I can assure everyone that > while there is a bright future for electronic versions of a > lot of our print materials, the paper products aren't > going anywhere anytime soon. It all has to do with the > intended audience and consumer base, and what they > will and will not accept. Lawyers and judges tend to be > a conservative lot, and while some of them have both > print AND electronic versions of certain core materials, > almost none of them have exclusively electronic > libraries (I only say almost because if I say none of > them, I'm sure someone will respond with a > contradiction!). > > I think that the wave of the future will be for publishers > and information providers to be able to provide their > materials to their customers in whatever format the > customer desires: Print, online, CD-ROM, or > whatever. That's certainly the direction that many of > the big publishers are taking. > > It comes back to the law of Supply and Demand: As > long as there is a market for printed products-- and that > doesn't appear to be going away-- there will always be > someone who will provide them. Whether or not it's > the same people who provide them now remains to be > seen. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:10:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710221634.JAA00120@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 09:32 AM 10/22/97 -0700, Paul wrote: >One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the world's >forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic books. Paul D. >Buell We may be rapidly destroying the world's forests, but as I understand it, it's *not* due to cutting down trees for paper. At the risk of sounding like an apologist for the paper companies, I've heard that they replant more trees than they cut. The biodiversity of the resulting "forests" may be questionable, but that's another issue. Yet another point in favor of books on paper: anyone reading an electronic book in the bathtub risks electrocution. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply In-Reply-To: <9710221729.AA16653@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Yes, but it takes paper to recycle and something is always lost in the recycling. I am serious about running out of trees. At the rate we are depleting our forests there will be serious shortages in a decade at most. Prices for good paper are already climbing out of sight. Paul On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Sharon Wright wrote: > Recycled paper is a wonderful thing! :-) > > >>> P. Buell > 10/22/97 12:32pm >>> > One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly > destroying the world's forests. We may have no choice > about a switch to electronic books. Paul D. > Buell > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:03:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: The 5% Solution When I originally posted referring to only 5% of the world's knowledge being available online, I meant the _present_ state of affairs; I don't have the timerity to predict the future. And yes, I do know that some publications because of their great size are no longer disseminated on paper; as I recall, Chemical Abstracts went to microfilm or microfiche over 10 years ago. Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:03:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: NOT Spam Since many of you guys are online a lot, I thought this might be useful. Have not yet tried the program. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: This Week's Download Dispatch (PC Edition) Date: 21-Oct-97 at 19:21 From: INTERNET:SUPPORTOWNLOAD.COM, INTERNET:SUPPORTOWNLOAD.COM TO: Multiple recipients of list DOWNLOAD-DISPATCH,INTERNET:DOWNLOAD-DISPATCH ISPATCH.CNET.COM ________________________________________________________________________ 8. Tip of the week Does the mere mention of spam cause your skin to crawl? Is your poor little in-box choking on oodles of unsolicited "make $$ fast" messages? Unfortunately, getting off a spammer's list is not an easy task. Your best bet is to stop spam at the door with one of the beefy filtering programs in our library. Some of these spam exterminators will even help you register your discontent with the spurious spammers, create a database of domains to lock out of your mailbox forever, or tattle to the hucksters' ISPs. Damn that spam: http://www.download.com/PC/Result/TitleList/1%2C2%2C0-a-0-0%2C00.html?&search=sp am+and+filter ________________________________________________________________________ 11. How to subscribe/unsubscribe to our newsletter If you're getting this newsletter forwarded to you from a friend but would rather subscribe for yourself, here's what to do. To subscribe on the Web: 1. Go to http://www.download.com/PC/Join/?dlpd 2. Check the DOWNLOAD.COM (PC) box on the screen 3. In the field provided, enter your email address 4. Click on the Subscribe button To subscribe by email: 1. Send an email message to listserv@dispatch.cnet.com 2. In the body of the message put the following: subscribe download-dispatch Don't know why you're receiving this dispatch? It's because we have received a subscription request for your email address. If you want to jump ship, here's what to do: To unsubscribe by email: 1. Send an email message to listserv@dispatch.cnet.com 2. In the body of the message put the following: unsubscribe download-dispatch ________________________________________________________________________ *Cheers from all your friends at DOWNLOAD.COM.* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:42:40 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Naomi K. Young" Subject: Re: The 5% Solution In-Reply-To: <01IP3Y09R6HK8WY2Y9@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU> At 04:03 PM 10/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >And yes, I do know that some publications because of their great size >are no longer disseminated on paper; as I recall, Chemical Abstracts >went to microfilm or microfiche over 10 years ago. This is true of some items, but not Chem Abstracts; it may be available in micro, but we still get dozens of big, clunky volumes here. > >Cheers, >dllt > Naomi Kietzke Young, Serials Catalog Librarian Northern Arizona University Naomi.Young@nau.edu Phone: (520) 523-6778 Fax: (520) 523-8043 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply In-Reply-To: <199710221853.NAA29119@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Yes, but it takes paper to recycle and something is always lost in the >recycling. I am serious about running out of trees. At the rate we are >depleting our forests there will be serious shortages in a decade at >most. Prices for good paper are already climbing out of sight. Paul > I own a printing company, and we use a lot of tree-free papers made from such things as kenaf (rhymes with giraffe; relative of the hibiscus and okra) and bamboo. The prices are reasonable, the quality good, and it's all recyclable. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ................................................. "However sugarcoated and ambiguous, every form of authoritarianism must start with a belief in some group's greater right to power, whether that right is justified by sex, race, class, religion, or all four. However far it may expand, the progression inevitably rests on unequal power and airtight roles within the family." --Gloria Steinem ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:54:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Reviews of Hyperindex? Maryann, I apologize for calling you "Mary" in my previous email. I just noticed the slip. Oops! Kamm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:19:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A brief (??), irreverant note on indexing Hi, all - Recently, a not-quite-newly-hatched indexer wrote to me expressing anxiety at having to change professions at a time not of his choosing, and serious apprehension as to whether he possessed the requisite skills to be a successful freelance indexer. I cannot predict his future, but some thoughts I had regarding his dilemma might be helpful to others (no flames, please). * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dear XXX - "No, you're not blathering. Changing professions is 'way up there on the hierarchy of stressful events. You'd be pretty unusual if you didn't feel some significant uncertainty and anxiety. But although indexing is a creative act, and often is extremely demanding and difficult, it also is not black magic or unreachable by ordinary mortals. Let's try to get some perspective on this. Until now, and probably into the near future (the Internet notwithstanding), books have encompassed the entire range of human knowledge and endeavor. This covers a lot of territory, and sometimes the landscape is rocky and difficult to traverse. But despite this, most indexing is pretty much down-to-earth, commonsensical stuff. Don't let the academic discussions on Index-L discourage you. If you can understand the text, indexing largely is a matter of saying to yourself' "Ah! so that's what he's talking about! Well, it's on page 35. Hmmnnn. Looks important. Better make an entry for it. It's also on page 47. OK. Now, there's this stuff that relates to it on page 98. Guess I need a cross-reference telling the reader to look there also. Let's see, is this a useful term?" Now, that's not so hard, is it? The rest is just details. (Of course, as they say, God is in the details. Also one's paycheck.) But the downside of this seductively simple image is that some people simply cannot index. Just as there are people who cannot carry a tune in a wheelbarrow, people who are tone-deaf, I believe that there are people who are "word-deaf". These people might be internationally-renowned subject experts, but they simply have no feeling for the orderly arrangement of words. They think in visual images and express themselves in monosyllabic grunts. Put them in a laboratory and they will earn the Nobel Prize. They will win the Congressional Medal of Honor, climb K2 without oxygen, and find the Lost Ark. But words are not their thing. These people cannot index. Please understand that I am not trivializing indexing. As Einstein said: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Many books are so complex that they require the greatest knowledge, skill and experience to index successfully. This is borne home most dramatically when one is facing an intractable, incoherent, multi-authored, redundant text, late at night, short on deadline and long on grief, and wondering how to find the end of that tangled ball of yarn. There is no equation to solve this. How-to-index books don't help here. This is when we reach back for all our strength and skill, grit our teeth, put on the coffee pot, unwrap the emergency chocolate, and just get on with it! That is the loneliness of the long-distance indexer! But most books are not like that. The publishing world is awash in ordinary, plain-vanilla, amiable texts. And these are not all that difficult to index. So take heart! Despite the tendency of some to invoke Orthodoxy, for any given text there is no one perfect, optimum, God-given index. That is what makes indexing fun - - the opportunity to Do It Our Way! I sometimes don't know if we are a Happy Band of Brothers (and Sisters) or a Confederation of Loonies, but indexing still remains very much a personal thing. It is Our Affair, and that's just wonderful! I believe that the expression is "Cosa Nostra"... Remember, please, that the indexer is the reader's ombudsman. After the text has been set, and the production schedule fixed, only the indexer is left to represent the reader's interests. The indexer is the pilot who helps the reader navigate the uncharted sea of the text. In a 900-page book this is not trivial. In my view, only two fundamental criteria mark a good index: 1) Technical accuracy (i.e., the index should accurately reflect the text), and 2) The index must anticipate the reader's points of view (i.e., the entries should be useful to the average reader asking a question or looking for information). It does not matter if one is indexing high-school-level texts on American History or esoteric post-graduate texts on Cosmology, the indexer must anticipate, and reflect, the reader's point of view. The indexer must think: If I were the reader, what would I be looking for, and how would I structure the question? That is, what words and concepts would the reader likely use to ask the question? That is where the art lies. Getting the page numbers right helps, too... As I have said before, keep in mind that publishing is not like 84 Charing Cross Road. Old-world craftsmanship still is valued, but in fewer and fewer venues, and at less and less cost. Publishing is a business, and a murderously difficult one at that. Increasingly, publishers are not handling book production in-house. So indexers who have painstakingly built up excellent working relationships with publishers and editors suddenly find themselves working, if at all, for unknown packagers. We get swept up in this pressure cooker and it is reflected in our rates, in our deadlines, and in our levels of stress. Most (not all) publishers only want a workable (i.e., adequate) index at the lowest cost in the least time. And even those publishers who do want high quality often can't offer correspondingly generous deadlines. Doesn't give us much slack to work with. But that's the business. And if you say "Well, that hasn't happened to me!", I can only respond by saying "Wait a bit..." Note, though, that there always are exceptions. So a good deal of the refinement of detail and wonderful precision of cross-posting that you see discussed on Index-L is relevant mostly to certain niche disciplines, but less so to the mainstream of what I call "commodity indexing". In a sense it is the choir preaching to itself. All this arguing about refinement of entries would be more broadly relevant if it were mainstream publishers telling us what they wanted (and would pay for), and not indexers talking to each other. My point is not that these discussions aren't useful and valid, they certainly are. I have learned a geat deal from them. I sincerely hope that they continue, world without end. My point is that a beginning indexer must not be intimidated by these technical discussions and feel overwhelmed and defeated before he/she even starts. Ah, well. Let me end this by saying that the most important thing is Simply Do It! We all (at least, mostly all) had identical anxieties when we started. Very few of us sprang, like Athena, fully-armed from Zeus' brow. We all started somewhere, made our mistakes, got cocky, and then experienced the embarassment of reviewing what we did a few months ago and saying "OmiGod! Did I do that?" As I said a few years ago, indexers are wonderful in that they willingly and freely help each other. I have never known an indexer to ask for help and be ignored. We don't abandon colleagues who are in trouble. Like the U.S. Marines, we bring out our wounded. I hope this never changes. There are worse things to do in this raggedy life than indexing. So, give it a shot! Good Luck! Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:27:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710221902.MAA11597@mx2.u.washington.edu> You last point is a serious objection! However, to correct your first point, according to one set of experts, there are limits to how many crops one can get out of forest lands. You can't keep growing trees for ever. Paul On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > At 09:32 AM 10/22/97 -0700, Paul wrote: > >One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the world's > >forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic books. Paul D. > >Buell > > We may be rapidly destroying the world's forests, but as I understand it, > it's *not* due to cutting down trees for paper. At the risk of sounding > like an apologist for the paper companies, I've heard that they replant > more trees than they cut. The biodiversity of the resulting "forests" may > be questionable, but that's another issue. > > Yet another point in favor of books on paper: anyone reading an electronic > book in the bathtub risks electrocution. ;-D > > Lynn > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:43:20 SAT-2 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Davies, T, Tessa, Mrs" Subject: indexing of images I'm new to this listserve and not yet an active indexer (I have completed 4 out of the 5 modules with the UK Society of Indexers) but thought you might be interested in the following quote from "A Guide to image processing and picture management" byA E Cawkell; Brookfield, Vt: Gower, 1994 "The processing people often accumulate large numbers of images but they seem unaware that they must be indexed if they are to be found again. It is quite understandable that the sellers of commercially available software packages and the people who review them in computer journals never mention the indexing problem. Even if they have ever heard of it, indexing has a boring image incompatible with the image of a hyped-up technology and is unlikely to clinch a sale." I wonder how many of you have experience in this area of indexing - it seems to present a few interesting problems. Tessa Davies tdavies@hiddingh.uct.ac.za tel. (021) 480 7139 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:52:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: A brief (??), irreverant note on indexing -Reply In response to : "In my view, only two fundamental criteria mark a good index: 1) Technical accuracy (i.e., the index should accurately reflect the text), and 2) The index must anticipate the reader's points of view (i.e., the entries should be useful to the average reader asking a question or looking for information). It does not matter if one is indexing high-school-level texts on American History or esoteric post-graduate texts on Cosmology, the indexer must anticipate, and reflect, the reader's point of view. The indexer must think: If I were the reader, what would I be looking for, and how would I structure the question? That is, what words and concepts would the reader likely use to ask the question? That is where the art lies. Getting the page numbers right helps, too...".... Amen to that! It is important to discuss among ourselves what makes a good index better, tips and tricks of the trade, etc...but the most important thing is still whether or not the index can get the reader to the information they are seeking. And because it is mainly a matter of common sense, there are no rules that can't be broken. In fact, the idea that there are "rules" at all really doesn't sit well with me. Maybe we could call them guidelines. I also agree with the statement that not everyone can index. It does take a certain understanding of language and a flair for organization! And it helps to be able to simplify ideas for the "average reader." It's obvious that not everyone can do that, and not just on this list -- ever have a bad college professor??? Good luck to the beginning indexer - it's a creative job and a lot of fun besides doing a great service to the reader (when the index works, of course). Janice ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:35:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Reviews of Hyperindex? In-Reply-To: <199710230415.XAA22015@mixcom.mixcom.com> Maryann, I reviewed HyperIndex in vol. 4, nos. 3 and 4 (May/Jun & Jul/Aug of 1996), of Key Words. It's a review of HyperIndex 5.0, and there is a newer version out, but you might want to take a look at that anyway. If you don't have that issue (but perhaps someone in your chapter will), let me know--I can scan the pages in and fax 'em to you. Too bad you haven't got anybody to demo HyperIndex. I tried to do that once but discovered my laptop didn't have video output (I'm in the process of remedying that). Anyway, have a good meeting. Cheers, Carol ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:44:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy H Fontaine Subject: Re: Controlled Vocabulary Developer Assistant - Corbis Corporation In-Reply-To: <199710221230.IAA00836@pike.sover.net> Could someone please send me this job description (no need to post to the list again)? Thanks, --Nancy Fontaine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:01:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Richard S. Perla" Subject: CINDEX Help Thursday Oct 23rd Hello Listers, Can someone help me with a slight problem: Cindex suddenly won't ingnore the 'the' , even though it is listed as an 'ignore' on the SORT screen. I have tried changing the sort from letter-by-letter to word-by-word, I even tried 'simple sort' as an experiment, and the 'the' entries are all still sitting in the T's. I have these flagged as italic, with a open /i, but even when I specifically asked Sort to include the italic flag, it still won't ignore. This also happened with the index I finished onTuesday, and I moved them all by hand (oh the strain of it all!). This is a music reference book, and a_lot_ of the album titles begin with 'the'. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance for your help, and many thanks to you listers (now part of my extended family) who gave me some pointers on HTML last month. I was able to design my own rudimentary web-site after reading all the sources I was referred to. It's still sitting here on disk, waiting to be made pretty. Could be years, the way I'm going. Again, thanks in advance! Jean Perla Yarmouth-which way to LL Bean-Maine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:31:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Snape Subject: Re: HELP with my index from hell! -THANKS Hi index-lers! Thanks for the suggestions. I actually did try to convert it to an rtf format, but for some reason, Cindex won't let me. It wouldn't let me change the printer settings either, so instead of being able to print with a nice laser printer, the computer wizard at school had to dig out an old Epson lq that was in storage so that we could get a print copy. I think it is time to call the help line! Julie / jlsnape@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:46:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janice Coffield Subject: CINDEX Help -Reply Try using angle brackets <> around the word THE. This tells it to ignore that word for sorting purposes. It only works in letter-by-letter and word-by-word sort modes, NOT in simple sort. Also, take out the space after the right angle bracket or Cindex will move the entries to the beginning of the index, heading, etc. because it will no longer ignore that space following the angle bracket. (Taken from pg. 141 of the Cindex manual). >>> Richard S. Perla 10/23/97 11:01am >>> Thursday Oct 23rd Hello Listers, Can someone help me with a slight problem: Cindex suddenly won't ingnore the 'the' , even though it is listed as an 'ignore' on the SORT screen. I have tried changing the sort from letter-by-letter to word-by-word, I even tried 'simple sort' as an experiment, and the 'the' entries are all still sitting in the T's. I have these flagged as italic, with a open /i, but even when I specifically asked Sort to include the italic flag, it still won't ignore. This also happened with the index I finished onTuesday, and I moved them all by hand (oh the strain of it all!). This is a music reference book, and a_lot_ of the album titles begin with 'the'. Am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance for your help, and many thanks to you listers (now part of my extended family) who gave me some pointers on HTML last month. I was able to design my own rudimentary web-site after reading all the sources I was referred to. It's still sitting here on disk, waiting to be made pretty. Could be years, the way I'm going. Again, thanks in advance! Jean Perla Yarmouth-which way to LL Bean-Maine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:49:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: CINDEX Help - Reply Jean Perla writes: "Cindex suddenly won't ingnore the 'the' , even though it is listed as an 'ignore' on the SORT screen...the 'the' entries are all still sitting in the T's." Jean, The "ignore" on the Cindex SORT screen applies only to subheading levels, so if you're talking about the heading, it won't work. The easiest thing to do would be to enclose a leading "The" and its following space in angle brackets, as \iAdventures of...\I. This should make the sort ignore those letters, while showing them in print. This could be done globally in very little time. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:41:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710230228.TAA02622@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 07:27 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote: >You last point is a serious objection! However, to correct your first >point, according to one set of experts, there are limits to how many crops >one can get out of forest lands. You can't keep growing trees for ever. >Paul Excuse me? *Both* of my points were "serious" objections, your disagreement with my first point not making it any less "serious". You have not "corrected" me as you've presumed to believe, just presented an opinion that supports your own. Perhaps you feel that you've won the debate. Fine, but consider the fact that your "victory" is only a Pyrrhic victory, won only by default (not on the merits of your argument). I have more valuable things to do with my time than debate with someone who is so sure that they are right that they condescend to "correct" the opposing side and denigrate points of view with which they don't agree as not being "serious". Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: CINDEX Help Aha! I was just thinking that there was some specific reason that CINDEX wouldn't ignore "the" for titles and such, and now I remember. That business in the sort section where you define which words to ignore...applies to _subentries_ only! I remember going through this little frustration before. Janice's recommendation is the best. I just do (including the space between the <>), and everything sorts just right. I personally think titles look dumb with "The" tacked on to the end, so I put them in front whenever I can. You can also make an abbreviation for this item so you don't have to type it all in everytime. Good luck! Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:05:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: The feel of paper Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness lately. I re-subscribed to this group recently after being away from it for quite a while. In that short time, unfortunately, I've wondered on a number of occasions why I bothered to do so. I'm primarily a lurker, so I won't be missed. It's a shame, though, that the group couldn't be put to a better use. John R. Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:24:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: The feel of paper is getting worn out John-- Usually on INDEX-L we are quite able to stay on track with indexing-related topics. Occasionally we get off track because some individuals like to discuss things to extremes. INDEX-L is like life, it goes in cycles. And like life, there are no absolutes and no one has a handle on the Truth. Stay with INDEX-L; things do get better as people get sick of certain topics. My opinion only. At 01:05 PM 10/23/97 EDT, John R. Sullivan wrote: >Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness lately. > >I re-subscribed to this group recently after being away from it for quite a >while. In that short time, unfortunately, I've wondered on a number of >occasions why I bothered to do so. > >I'm primarily a lurker, so I won't be missed. It's a shame, though, that the >group couldn't be put to a better use. > >John R. Sullivan > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:49:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CINDEX Help Jean, I think "ignore 'the'" in CINDEX applies only to subentries. If you intend a title beginning with "The..." as a main entry to be alphabetized by its second word, put it and its following space in pointed brackets, e.g., /iSecond Coming/I (Jones) or, shift the initial article to the end of the entry, e.g., /iSecond Coming, The/I (Jones) Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:53:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: John Sullivan's response to The feel of paper Dear John - Hmnnn.. I never expected to be writing a Dear John letter... John, I read with interest, and with some distress, your posting regarding the "nastiness" on Index-l and your evident intention to unsubscribe. May I ask you to reconsider? If one were to review all the postings on Index-L for, say, the past six months, would you not agree that the majority of them were thoughtful, informative, gentle (even in some cases frivolous), but very few could be characterized as "nasty". It seems a shame to disparage, and discard, all the thought, caring and effort that went into all those postings merely because a few persons occasionally tipped over, possibly because of some stresses in their lives about which we probably haven't a clue. Index-L is an informal, unstructured, unrefereed, forum. Sometimes it is wonderfully helpful and astonishingly erudite, sometimes it is irritating as one must read through a myriad of personal comments that should have been sent off-list. and sometimes it is frustrating as frivolous threads seem to go on and on. But that is not the point. The important point is that Index-L is a free, open, basically supportive and friendly professional forum. It is not squeaky clean. It probably is, in meticulous, up-tight, professionally-correct terms, a sloppy venue. It certainly is not guaranteed never to offend anybody at any time in any place. But I deeply love and cherish it, warts and all. In fact Index-L has been remarkably tolerant of my warts, and I thank them for that... Now, there are venues in life in which one serious discomfort is sufficient to warrant turning on one's heel and stalking off. Roaches in your new apartment is an example that comes to mind. But in the free exchange of uncensored ideas among fraternal colleagues, such impeccable, exquisite, refinement of thought and expression simply is not warranted or even desirable. Now, just to set the record straight regarding Lynn's obviously angry posting on the Feel of Paper, and the one to which you responded: Be it known that Lynn is, with no doubt whatsoever, one the the finest, gentlest, most knowledgeable, most understanding, most supportive, and just all-around best lady it has been my privilege to know. Know also that during the past six months or so she has suffered two major heart attacks and has to face her mortality in a way that most of have, blessedly, been spared. I have never known her to post such an angry message, nor have I ever her known her to be angry in any conversation we have shared. She is one lovely lady, and if she tipped over in her last posting I can only be concerned that she is experiencing intractable health problems that have compromised her unfailing good nature and have worn her down... I ask you, therefore, to reconsider your impatience with index-L and its evident unworthiness of your time and interest. It is much, much better than that. If you can find it possible to bear with us a bit more gently and patiently, we welcome you back and wish you well. Instead of lurking, try sharing. By which I mean share your knowledge... and share the risk. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 05:35:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply Elsa Kramer wrote: > I own a printing company, and we use a lot of tree-free papers made from > such things as kenaf (rhymes with giraffe; relative of the hibiscus and > okra) and bamboo. The prices are reasonable, the quality good, and it's all > recyclable. Elsa, is this paper available to the general public? Also, what is its acid content? Just curious; the acidity of paper used in publishing is of increasing concern to me as I watch my paperbacks yellow and become brittle. Some of the newer ones are aging faster than the older ones! (I've begun replacing any well-loved book with a hardcover if at all possible, since the paper quality is somewhat better. ) Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:10:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710231654.JAA24426@mx4.u.washington.edu> Nasty, nasty. But why? Notice I said re: point two that "one set of experts said..." I was merely presenting this view which is frequently held in my state where it is claimed that the problem is being encountered (my expert, and he quotes others, is, by the way, a Bonneville Power Administration contractor; Bonneville having year problems due to the loss of forest cover and thus the moisture-carrying capacity of the soil--I should mention that I wrote conservation reports for them as a contractor too). Not my option at all but of an expert. There are other options. As to what I believe: I have not made up my mind. It seems to me, however, and this is regarding the recent debate about indexing speed, that there are some on the list who take certain things too seriously, even personally. I was trained as a scholar and to argue point for point. I am not demolishing the opposing view merely presenting addition facts, wadditional views, which may be of interest. Paul D. Buell PS: I know you will growl because I say so, but you can read a book in the bath tub, through a holograph or similar display. Now of course this would be very expensive and the quality poor .....Maybe a virtual bath would be the solution. On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > At 07:27 PM 10/22/97 -0700, you wrote: > >You last point is a serious objection! However, to correct your first > >point, according to one set of experts, there are limits to how many crops > >one can get out of forest lands. You can't keep growing trees for ever. > >Paul > > Excuse me? *Both* of my points were "serious" objections, your disagreement > with my first point not making it any less "serious". You have not > "corrected" me as you've presumed to believe, just presented an opinion > that supports your own. Perhaps you feel that you've won the debate. Fine, > but consider the fact that your "victory" is only a Pyrrhic victory, won > only by default (not on the merits of your argument). I have more valuable > things to do with my time than debate with someone who is so sure that they > are right that they condescend to "correct" the opposing side and denigrate > points of view with which they don't agree as not being "serious". > > Lynn > > *********************************** > Lynn Moncrief > (techndex@pacbell.net) > TECHindex & Docs > Technical and Scientific Indexing > *********************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:11:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "P. Buell" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710231654.JAA24426@mx4.u.washington.edu> And Lynn: I did take your point about the bath tub seriously. I thought it was a good one. We can't take our computers everywhere. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:24:10 -0700 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: A good word about indexing In the November issue of Yankee Magazine (with a short feature on our favorite cook, Julia Child) I came across this pat-on-the back for the indexer of _The Yale Guide to Children's Nutrition_, "And it's all in one well-indexed book organized around age groups . . ." Kudos to the indexer, and a happy pat on the back for the profession as a whole. The whole book review is on page 87. Shelley Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:27:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Al Stewart Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <199710231658.JAA16945@poseidon.van.hookup.net> >>However, to correct your first point, according to one set of experts, >>there are limits to how many crops one can get out of forest lands. >>You can't keep growing trees for ever. Limits? Perhaps? But does anyone know how many hundreds or thousands of "generations" of trees have there been since the first trees started growing? Al Stewart ----------------------------------------- "Stewart Information Services" Manuscripts - Word Processing - OCR/Scanning Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com http://www.cadvision.com/stewarta/multi1a.htm ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:26:23 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hineman, Joe" Subject: Re[2]: HELP with my index from hell! -THANKS Julie Snape (jlsnape@aol.com) wrote: "..I actually did try to convert it to an rtf format, but for some reason, Cindex won't let me. It wouldn't let me change the printer settings either, so instead of being able to print with a nice laser printer, the computer wizard at school had to dig out an old Epson lq that was in storage so that we could get a print copy. I think it is time to call the help line!" Julie, In the directory where cindex.exe resides should be the file rtf.cod. To apply it, in Cindex type PRINT/FILE and put RTF where it says "File Type?" Then hit Enter. For the printer, for the laser printer there should be in the same Cindex directory a file hpljet.cod (or maybe a similar name?). To apply it, in Cindex type SET PRINT and in the Printer line type the name of that file without the extension (e.g. HPLJET). Then hit Enter. You could use Win95's Find function to search for those files (cindex.exe, hpljet.cod, rtf.cod). You should have them if your copy of Cindex is complete. Hope this helps, Joe Hineman jhineman@acad.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:11:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <9710231837.AA02158@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Al: I guess I am still here, the server doesn't like the new name our revamped Western Washington University site now has. I replied privately, thinking I had unsubscribed (will try again), that generations of trees is one thing, tree monoculture is something else. I have been informed that tree monoculture is believed now to be good for only about 5 crop generations. After that there are problems. Of course over geological time the soil is restored of the trace minerals which limit what may grow. However, forest lands, over less than geological times, often go through progressions of the types of trees or other vegetation that grow on them as essential nutrients are depleted. I know, for example, the pines usually indicate a depleted forest soil. Human beings can change what grows too, as Carl Sauer and others tell us. In fact tracing pollen changes over time is claimed to be one way to detect human occupation of a given area. A more mundane problem: My server keeps sending back pbuell@cc.wwu.edu whereas I subscribed from statler. How do I unsubscribe this being the case. Perplexed in Seattle. Paul D. Buell On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Al Stewart wrote: > >>However, to correct your first point, according to one set of experts, > >>there are limits to how many crops one can get out of forest lands. > >>You can't keep growing trees for ever. > > Limits? Perhaps? But does anyone know how many hundreds or thousands of > "generations" of trees have there been since the first trees started growing? > > Al Stewart > > > ----------------------------------------- > "Stewart Information Services" > Manuscripts - Word Processing - OCR/Scanning > Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com > http://www.cadvision.com/stewarta/multi1a.htm > ----------------------------------------- > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:21:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Does "and" add anything? Hi indexers, I recently finished an index for a new client who specified that they wanted a minimun of prepositions and articles and words like "relations with." That was OK for most of the entries--I certainly prefer Austria agricultural policy environmental policy trading margins etc. to Austria agricultural policy in environmental policy in etc. However, there were some entries that just "felt" better with "and": Austria and Economic and Monetary Union and Germany and NATO I don't know why these feel better. I can't tell that the "and" really adds anything other than as a signal to the reader that "Yes, I really did mean to put this entry here; 'Austria, and bananas' really is an entry and not a typo." Making these entries clearer by changing "and" to "position on" or "effects of" or "relations with" was not really an option, because it would have made the index too long and would have spread things out too much, as in Austria convergence criteria for Economic and Monetary Union, 65, 71 a bunch more entries, effects of Economic and Monetary Union on, 15, 36, 421 another bunch of entries, position on Economic and Monetary Union, 17-20, 355 public opinion on Economic and Monetary Union, 14 Am I crazy to want to use "and" for these entries? Other publishers that I index this type of stuff for want every subentry to form a grammatical phrase with the main heading, an instruction I frequently ignore when they've gotten to know and like my work (I say "Austria, agricultural policies" and they don't complain), so I'm wondering if my ear is just trained wrong for the minimal articles and prepositions type of indexing. So how do you all feel about "and"? Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:12:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: James Curtis Subject: History of Indexing Index-Lers: I am a relatively new indexer briefly delurking to ask if anyone can confirm the accuracy of the following, a passage in a book I am currently reviewing: [when medieval readers discovered what they should take to heart] ". . . alongside the text, in the margins, monks would draw an index finger pointing dramatically to a critical passage, like an arrow indicating an exit in a theater -- except this finger said, 'Enter here!' 'Know this!' -- an artistic practice that culminated, in the ninth century, in that incredibly useful scholarly apparatus, the index." Are there historians of indexing out there that can tell me whether monks really drew index fingers or is this just an author's creative imagination at work? Jim Curtis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Carr Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 21 Oct 1997 to 22 Oct 1997 WHile it may be true that paper companies plant more trees than they cut, there is no way a tree can grow as fast as it can be cut! So....no matter how many trees they plant, they won't catch up with the destruction. And ancient forests, well...kiss them all goodbye at the rate things are going. ALL paper should be recycled and ALL virgin paper should be VERY expensive IMHO. Becky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:29:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: History of Indexing >Are there historians of indexing out there that can tell me whether monks >really drew index fingers or is this just an author's creative imagination >at work? > >Jim Curtis > > Monks drew all kinds of stuff in the margins and in the lovely intricate capital letters. You'll find sweet cherubs, laughing devils, poor souls...many are quite amusing. I've seen examples of text in which a word was left out, and the scribe drew a picture of a little monk in the margin, pushing the word up into place. It all gives an interesting perspective on what we "modern" folks think are gloomy old monastics. Senses of humor have existed since the dawn of time! -- LG ----------------------------------------------------------------- Lindsay Gower | email: lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer | phone: 1.650.372.3606 Persistence Software Inc. | fax: 1.650.341.8432 1720 S. Amphlett Blvd., Suite 300 | http://www.persistence.com San Mateo, CA USA 94402 | ---------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Claire LeBlanc Subject: Job Op--O'Reilly & Associates Associate Indexer Wanted O'Reilly & Associates, Inc., a computer book publisher in Cambridge, MA, seeks a part-time associate indexer. *Must work on-site.* The Associate Indexer will create embedded-tag indexes in Framemaker and possibly in other formats. Responsibilities include marking up hard copy, inserting index tags in files, generating indexes from completed files, and editing and revising indexes. The Associate Indexer will learn and implement house indexing standards. This is an ideal position for a beginning indexer seeking more experience, or for a veteran indexer who wishes to establish a long-term working relationship with a publisher and develop embedded indexing skills. Requirements: Some experience/training in indexing. Strong communications and conceptual skills. Close attention to detail. Must be comfortable with technical material. Framemaker and/or Unix experience desirable, but not essential. Bachelor's degree. If interested, please send a cover letter, resume, and short indexing sample (4-15 pgs) to: Claire Cloutier LeBlanc O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. 90 Sherman Street Cambridge, MA 02140 617-354-5800 (phone) 617-661-1116 (fax) cleblanc@oreilly.com Claire Cloutier LeBlanc Production Coordinator 617-499-7473 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:53:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Birchfield, Vicki" Subject: Re: The feel of paper is getting worn out Sometimes I wonder whether email will be the cause of the next world war. It's so easy to invest comments with layers of unintended meaning when they are received without the benefit of facial expression or tone of voice to soften or clarify them. I subscribe to only a very few newsgroups because they too often degrade into a trading off of insults. When I became interested in indexing and found Index-L, I thought I had discovered one of cyberspace's finest treasures - a group of knowledgeable, interesting, and considerate people. People posting seemed keenly aware that the receiving thing on the other end of the wire was a human being, probably sitting in their room alone. I still believe this to be a wonderful group, even though several threads of this past week have been particularly hard to take. Now it seems as though bad feelings from old threads are spreading into new threads. I've been upset by this latest dialogue all morning (sigh, a sign of my own projection onto the page). One thing's clear - that this is a dwelling place of people who know and love words. This week they have shown how they can be wielded with cutting precision. John, I second Cynthia's request that you not leave the group. I think this is just a bad spell, and if all the people who are upset by such things leave, there won't be much of a group remaining. :-) MHO. I hesitate to send this, being a newcomer (6 months?) and mostly a lurker, but I really have become quite fond of you all. It upsets me much more than I would have expected, that there is fighting going on. Vicki > -----Original Message----- > From: Cynthia Bertelsen [SMTP:cbertel@USIT.NET] > Sent: Thursday, October 23, 1997 10:49 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: The feel of paper is getting worn out > > John-- > > Usually on INDEX-L we are quite able to stay on track with > indexing-related > topics. Occasionally we get off track because some individuals like > to > discuss things to extremes. INDEX-L is like life, it goes in cycles. > And > like life, there are no absolutes and no one has a handle on the > Truth. > Stay with INDEX-L; things do get better as people get sick of certain > topics. > > My opinion only. > > At 01:05 PM 10/23/97 EDT, John R. Sullivan wrote: > >Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness > lately. > > > >I re-subscribed to this group recently after being away from it for > quite a > >while. In that short time, unfortunately, I've wondered on a number > of > >occasions why I bothered to do so. > > > >I'm primarily a lurker, so I won't be missed. It's a shame, though, > that the > >group couldn't be put to a better use. > > > >John R. Sullivan > > > > > > ***************************************** > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer > cbertel@usit.net > Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > > ***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:02:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper -Reply In-Reply-To: <199710231803.NAA16988@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Elsa, is this paper available to the general public? Also, what is its >acid content? Just curious; the acidity of paper used in publishing is of >increasing concern to me as I watch my paperbacks yellow and become >brittle. Some of the newer ones are aging faster than the older ones! >(I've begun replacing any well-loved book with a hardcover if at all >possible, since the paper quality is somewhat better. ) > >Kara Pekar >jkpekar@crosslink.net I know the bamboo paper is acid-free, and I believe the kenaf is as well but don't have that information at my fingertips. But, yes -- these papers and others are commercially available. Depending on your geographic location, you may be able to get them at Kinko's (mostly West coast); otherwise, from little environmentally rabid printers like me. There are quite a few websites for these products, from which you can probably discover retail outlets in your area. Another advantage to these papers is that many of them are made without the need for any chlorine bleaching process, which creates dioxins. Most of the recycled tree-fiber papers we use here (except for some of the "arty" ones) still have to go through that bleaching process to get rid of old ink and dyes. While I don't believe for one minute the advertising claims of the big forest products companies who promise us trees forever, I am far more worried about dioxins produced by that industry and many others. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:44:48 +0600 Reply-To: Roberta Engleman Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: History of Indexing In-Reply-To: <97Oct23.152728-0400_edt.9238-188308+79@email.unc.edu> Pointing fingers are common in manuscripts. "Index" is the Latin word for someone or something that reveals or points out, with "forefinger" as a secondary meaning. I imagine most of these little icons were drawn in by readers rather than by the scribe, though. The practice of drawing fingers in margins continued well into the period of printed books. I've seen them in sixteenth century books. ________________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, James Curtis wrote: > Index-Lers: > > I am a relatively new indexer briefly delurking to ask if anyone can confirm > the accuracy of the following, a passage in a book I am currently reviewing: > > [when medieval readers discovered what they should take to heart] ". . . > alongside the text, in the margins, monks would draw an index finger > pointing dramatically to a critical passage, like an arrow indicating an > exit in a theater -- except this finger said, 'Enter here!' 'Know this!' -- > an artistic practice that culminated, in the ninth century, in that > incredibly useful scholarly apparatus, the index." > > Are there historians of indexing out there that can tell me whether monks > really drew index fingers or is this just an author's creative imagination > at work? > > Jim Curtis > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 04:26:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: Thanks for Help Dear Lynn, Paul, and Martha: Thank you for all of the helpful information on names in history books. It has helped me greatly to see the various options that I have and which would work best. I especially appreciated the incredibly fast response. Thanks to too all who may be answering in e-mail that I haven't yet received.] Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:39:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Scheduling rant Today I learned that a book I was to begin indexing on 10/20 has been held up by the typesetter (no explanation for the holdup) and won't be ready until 11/14! So now I find myself with a 2-week gap and no compensation for it. Until now, I've been content to use a written contract only with authors, but now I must consider using a contract for every job, to protect myself against the kind of schedule slippage that costs me several hundred dollars. If we indexers are expected to deliver *on time every time*, then production editors should be held to that same standard. I used to think that reputable publishers don't stiff you, and they don't in the traditional sense, but this is another way of being stiffed. I think we may have discussed kill fees a while back. To those of you who do charge a kill fee, what percentage do you charge? Grumble, grumble (expletives deleted), Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:35:37 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Hineman, Joe" Subject: Re: Does "and" add anything? Heather Jones (hpjones@rt66.com) writes: "I recently finished an index for a new client...wanted a minimun of prepositions and articles and words like "relations with." ---------------- Heather, I agree on minimizing use of articles and prepositions, Your clear examples help answer the question, too (at least in my mind). "And" implies a relationship, and using it works well in some cases and not in others. For example in your example below it seems to work well except for "and Germany" -- maybe because that's so general and wide open as to possible meaning (Austria and Germany are "equal," so the implied relationship is not clear). Austria and Economic and Monetary Union and Germany and NATO Another objection some publishers may have is that when "and" (or other conjuctions or prepositions) is used a lot (overused), you end up with most lines starting with or ending with "and," which just seems too much. You also gave these examples of entries that would be too long, too wordy: Austria convergence criteria for Economic and Monetary Union, 65, 71 a bunch more entries, effects of Economic and Monetary Union on, 15, 36, 421 another bunch of entries, position on Economic and Monetary Union, 17-20, 355 public opinion on Economic and Monetary Union, 14 If you can have sub-subs in this index, how about: Austria -and Economic and Monetary Union --convergence criteria, 65, 71 --effects of, 15, 36, 421 --position on, 17-20, 355 --public opinion on, 14 "In" and "of" and similar words can often be seen as implied, and so dispensed with. Of course, in some cases they need to be kept in because the clarity is lost without them. Anyway, I like the idea of minimizing those linker words but not being too rigid about it. (Get a clean-looking index but have to be sure the meaning isn't lost in the process.) JoeH jhineman@acad.com (My individual opinion-- not speaking for Academic Press). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:02:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: History of Indexing In-Reply-To: <9710231927.AA09429@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Damm good question. You might want to post this to the Medieval list, Mediev-L@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu. You will probably have to subscribe to post but this should stir up an interesting debate? Paul D. Buell On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, James Curtis wrote: > Index-Lers: > > I am a relatively new indexer briefly delurking to ask if anyone can confirm > the accuracy of the following, a passage in a book I am currently reviewing: > > [when medieval readers discovered what they should take to heart] ". . . > alongside the text, in the margins, monks would draw an index finger > pointing dramatically to a critical passage, like an arrow indicating an > exit in a theater -- except this finger said, 'Enter here!' 'Know this!' -- > an artistic practice that culminated, in the ninth century, in that > incredibly useful scholarly apparatus, the index." > > Are there historians of indexing out there that can tell me whether monks > really drew index fingers or is this just an author's creative imagination > at work? > > Jim Curtis > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: ICQ Book Indexer's Chat Hi, Well it looks like Sat at 7:00 Central is the best time for the ICQ Chat for most of us. We will try it and if we can get enough coming to set a second chat time that would be more convenient for the rest then we will. Probably around 3:15. If you need the software for the ICQ program you can download it at: http://members.aol.com./bookindexr Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Re: laptop use/recommendations? Thanks Carol. Beth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:27:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Kathleen Fischer? Sorry to post this to the list, but I tried contacting Kathleen Fischer at the email address listed in a post from May, and it bounced (unknown user). Kathleen, if you are still on Index-L: you made some comments about the importance of indexes to aquisitions librarians. I'd like to quote you briefly to a publisher, if I may. I will not do so without your consent. Since you may not even remember your original post, please contact me privately so I can repost it to you. Thank you, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:05:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Job Op--O'Reilly & Associates In-Reply-To: <9710231950.AA13378@henson.cc.wwu.edu> And in case some of you did not catch the postings re this company, their indexing is very highly thought of!! Paul D. Buell On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Claire LeBlanc wrote: > Associate Indexer Wanted > > > O'Reilly & Associates, Inc., a computer book publisher in Cambridge, MA, > seeks a part-time associate indexer. *Must work on-site.* > > The Associate Indexer will create embedded-tag indexes in Framemaker and > possibly in other formats. Responsibilities include marking up hard copy, > inserting index tags in files, generating indexes from completed files, and > editing and revising indexes. The Associate Indexer will learn and implement > house indexing standards. > > This is an ideal position for a beginning indexer seeking more experience, > or for a veteran indexer who wishes to establish a long-term working > relationship with a publisher and develop embedded indexing skills. > > Requirements: Some experience/training in indexing. Strong communications > and conceptual skills. Close attention to detail. Must be comfortable with > technical material. Framemaker and/or Unix experience desirable, but not > essential. Bachelor's degree. > > If interested, please send a cover letter, resume, and short indexing sample > (4-15 pgs) to: > > Claire Cloutier LeBlanc > O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. > 90 Sherman Street > Cambridge, MA 02140 > 617-354-5800 (phone) > 617-661-1116 (fax) > cleblanc@oreilly.com > > Claire Cloutier LeBlanc > Production Coordinator > 617-499-7473 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:11:04 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: And a good word about Indexers Another good word (I hope this is news) about indexers: On page 621 of A. S. Byatt's paperbound edition of _Babel Tower_ (1996), in the acknowledgements, she says: ". . . Hazel Bell's indexes to _The Virgin in the Garden_ and _Still Life_, though not designed as author's aids, were very helpful for that purpose. . ." ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:52:32 +0900 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper >From Christine Headley On Thursday Paul Buell said: "One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the world's forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic books. " I will only begin to be convinced by this argument when computers are biodegradeable and not made of metal or plastic, and not obsolescent within a month or two of purchase. Once developing countries get as much on-line as we are, I foresee a repetition of the fridges and CFCs problem, where 'we' now find ourselves lecturing 'them' on the necessity of avoiding our mistakes. Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:26:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Brittle and Yellow but not Wood Pulp As a brief aside on alternative papers and alternative conditions to good quality paper, not being made out of wood pulp doesn't guarantee long term preservation. In working with Spanish archival paper from the 16th into the 19th century, where for most of the time a high quality paper was required for official documents, the paper that isn't high quality really stands out. The most obvious is what has been called "rice paper." These are official documents from the Spanish colonial government in the Philippines. Sixteenth century documents are as brittle as any old newspaper. Eighteenth century documents are not so bad but they still are brittle. These are documents in the Audiencia de Filipinas section of the Archivo General de Indias in Seville Spain. Some of the U.S. origin material is equally bad. Documents from frontier settlements in Kentucky in the 18th can be very brittle. This is long before the day of wood pulp paper so I don't understand the reason for it but the poor quality stands in contrast to the much better paper that is much more common. By the way, these are reports of Spanish spies/agents and, for North American settlements in areas under Spanish control (e.g. New Madrid Missouri), often census documents. The source is the Papeles de Cuba of the Archivo General de Indias. A third example is being toasted over a fire. In the early part of this century a fire at the AGI subjected many of the sixteenth century documents in the Contaduria section to high heat. These manuscripts, originally prepared on good quality paper, are yellow and extremely brittle. Not enormously relevant to indexing, but I thought it might be interesting, Lawrence H. Feldman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:19:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: missing mail again/mixed order If your mailer has a "sort" option, try sorting on the date/time (the message was sent). That seems to help me - although my mailer has incorrect ideas about time zones, and thus continues to mis-sort some messages. LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > > I often get my mail in mixed up order. In fact, I am grateful to those who > copy the email to which they are responding. I usually get the original mail > much later than the replies. > Leslie > Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:37:51 -0700 Reply-To: Kari Bero Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Scheduling rant In-Reply-To: All of my contracts include info on how I handle: Rates (how they're calculated) Invoicing Shipping Charges Late fees Cancellation fees Here is my section on Late fees... --------------------------------------- Late fees I need to be informed of changes in the arrival date of page proofs. If proofs are late without one week notice, my schedule is thrown off, and it is at my discretion to require clients to compensate me at 40% of my fee for the time difference. If a project is canceled by default (if the page proofs arrive so late that I must forego the project to begin another scheduled project), a two week cancellation fee may be applied. Although it has never happened, I would inform my clients of expected late index delivery, and clients may deduct 5% per day for late delivery of index. --------------------------------------- Does anyone else have similar statements in their contracts? I'm especially interested in those of you working with software publishers / manufacturers, since those are the slipperiest deadlines I deal with. -Kari -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@cyberspace.com Seattle, WA 98116 http://www.cyberspace.com/~bero/ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Carol Roberts wrote: > Today I learned that a book I was to begin indexing on 10/20 has been held > up by the typesetter (no explanation for the holdup) and won't be ready > until 11/14! So now I find myself with a 2-week gap and no compensation for > it. Until now, I've been content to use a written contract only with > authors, but now I must consider using a contract for every job, to protect > myself against the kind of schedule slippage that costs me several hundred > dollars. If we indexers are expected to deliver *on time every time*, then > production editors should be held to that same standard. I used to think > that reputable publishers don't stiff you, and they don't in the > traditional sense, but this is another way of being stiffed. > > I think we may have discussed kill fees a while back. To those of you who > do charge a kill fee, what percentage do you charge? > > Grumble, grumble (expletives deleted), > > > Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My > Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. > Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer > http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Indexing images > >I wonder how many of you have experience in this area of indexing - >it seems to present a few interesting problems. I've done one project indexing about 2,000 clip art images, and it was really interesting! There was an article a few years back in Keywords about indexing images, and I went back and looked at it, then contacted the official group named in it who had developed some guidelines for image indexing. Most of the big photo houses that are selling digital images do have them indexed somewhat, so that you can search for them, usually in their own proprietary software (which doesn't work very well in some cases.) There is also a lot of research being done on automatic image retrieval by content recognition algorithms - I indexed a book this year from the GSLIS at Illinois on the subject. It's a fascinating area -- and there's more being done than that quote really indicates. Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:24:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Blackburn Subject: History of Indexing and illustrated manuscripts In response to your question about "the drawing of index fingers" beside critical passages in medieval manuscripts: In the illuminated manuscripts I've looked at ("illuminated" because the bright colours and decoration "brightened up" the page), I ha= ve not seen "index fingers", but there certainly is emphasis and often explanation of critical concepts through the use of symbols that would be= commonly understood in the medieval period. For example the fish (from ICHTHUS -- Jesus Christ, son of God, in Greek), was commonly used as a symbol of Christ, and the peacock was used as a symbol of immortality (because peacocks were at one time believed to be immortal). Thus the illiterate faithful, looking at the beautiful manuscript on the altar mig= ht see a fish and a peacock and think "Christ, the Son of God! Immortality!"= In a manuscript I saw recently containing the passage from Matthew in whi= ch Jesus describes the sufferings of humanity in the last days, there is a picture of a fish with a sad face, regarding the agony of a cramped and suffering human figure, squeezed within the confines of a large initial letter. Will be interested to hear other comments on this subject. Christopher Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:44:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLF EdServ Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: marketing, yet again Dear colleagues, Please excuse the formality. I'm just caught up in a formal letter writing loop. I am in the process of writing letters of introduction to publishers marketing my services. This is the first time in seven years (since I began indexing) that I've had to introduce myself without a contact, and I'm feeling VERY awkward about it. Could you all share some of the ways that you've introduced yourselves in these marketing letters. Or is it awkward for everyone, along the lines of cold calls. These are just cold calls in letters, after all. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Leslie Leland Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:03:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The Feel of Paper In-Reply-To: <9710240106.AA00903@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Good point Christine. Did the rest of you see the item in the papers, by the way, where Clinton or someone in his administration has proposed cutting down all the old-growth forests in the US of A since they produce more carbon emissions than younger ones. The item went on that the republics have introduced a bill.... Take that as a sequel to the feel of paper debate. Of course, what we are going to breath when there are no more trees...... An excellent way to recycle old computers is to use the chips for earrings. My son has made an impressive set using old 386 chips. Older, established ladies perhaps not, but my daughter-in-law has been seen with the like or worse. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > >From Christine Headley > > On Thursday Paul Buell said: > > "One for point about books on paper. We are rapidly destroying the > world's forests. We may have no choice about a switch to electronic > books. " > > I will only begin to be convinced by this argument when computers are > biodegradeable and not made of metal or plastic, and not obsolescent > within a month or two of purchase. > > Once developing countries get as much on-line as we are, I foresee a > repetition of the fridges and CFCs problem, where 'we' now find > ourselves lecturing 'them' on the necessity of avoiding our mistakes. > > Christine > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Brittle and Yellow but not Wood Pulp In-Reply-To: <9710241346.AA01929@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Lawrence: one of the great tragedies of life is getting access to some old book or document that is in the process of disintegrating. What is impressive are the many old books that are not. I once held in my own two hands several Sung books from the Ch'ing imperial library that were still soft and pliable. The paper was not yellow or deteriorating at all and the print had not faded. I have also seen older East Asian manuscripts on the same kind of "paper" that are a thousand or more years old and can still be rolled and unrolled with no problem, and this after being sealed up in caves a Tun-huang. We have got to start producing better quality books. The 10-20 book just won't do. Paul D. Buell PS: I hold out for vellum myself. Anyone know a source of laser vellum? On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 Lawrenc846@aol.com wrote: > As a brief aside on alternative papers and alternative conditions to good > quality paper, not being made out of wood pulp doesn't guarantee long term > preservation. > > In working with Spanish archival paper from the 16th into the 19th century, > where for most of the time a high quality paper was required for official > documents, the paper that isn't high quality really stands out. > > The most obvious is what has been called "rice paper." These are official > documents from the Spanish colonial government in the Philippines. Sixteenth > century documents are as brittle as any old newspaper. Eighteenth century > documents are not so bad but they still are brittle. These are documents in > the Audiencia de Filipinas section of the Archivo General de Indias in > Seville Spain. > > Some of the U.S. origin material is equally bad. Documents from frontier > settlements in Kentucky in the 18th can be very brittle. This is long before > the day of wood pulp paper so I don't understand the reason for it but the > poor quality stands in contrast to the much better paper that is much more > common. By the way, these are reports of Spanish spies/agents and, for > North American settlements in areas under Spanish control (e.g. New Madrid > Missouri), often census documents. The source is the Papeles de Cuba of the > Archivo General de Indias. > > A third example is being toasted over a fire. In the early part of > this century a fire at the AGI subjected many of the sixteenth century > documents in the Contaduria section to high heat. These manuscripts, > originally prepared on good quality paper, are yellow and extremely brittle. > > > Not enormously relevant to indexing, but I thought it might be > interesting, > > Lawrence H. Feldman > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:48:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Indexing images I've also worked off and on in this area for a major publisher. There the driving force is to reuse existing images from their large collection. So a physics author for example could more or less "plug and chug" images of the standard things like acceleration and forces without having to round up all sorts of images, get permissions, etc.. Their approach was to use a thesaurus system with free language capability. A big problem that came up was sort of the inverse of the "one picture is worth a 1000 words" bromide: One picture may need a 1000 words to adequately describe. Some illustrations like simple place pictures can be very well described by only a few terms, while other pictures may leave you feeling you haven't been able to capture the true essence of what the illustration is about, no matter how many descriptors you use. I agree that this will be a big area for indexers in the future. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:48:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Al Stewart Subject: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <199710241808.LAA03755@poseidon.van.hookup.net> In all this discussion of paper and trees being cut down to make it, I seem to get the feeling that everyone is assuming that the use of paper is the World's Most Wanted #1 for the crime of destroying forests. Does anyone actually know what the comparative usage figures/percentages are for tree usage/destruction/cutting: 1. Pulp and paper 2. Lumber (house construction - furniture etc.) 3. Heating (yep there are still people who use wood for heating) 4. Land clearing (as in Indonesia and Brazil) 5. Forest fires Al Stewart --------------------------------------------- Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com -- stewarta@impact.ca "Stewart Information Services" -- Helping YOU Communicate ---- Manuscript Typing -- DTP -- Word Processing Text Conversion - Scanning/OCR -- Format Conversion http://www.cadvision.com/stewarta/multi1a.htm --------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Brittle and Yellow but not Wood Pulp In-Reply-To: <199710241856.NAA11603@beavis.inetdirect.net> Paul D. Buell > >PS: I hold out for vellum myself. Anyone know a source of laser vellum? >> Paul, do you mean *real* vellum, as in animal skin? Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:19:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <9710241942.AA12993@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Al: I was under the impression that paper was #1 by a long shot, including toilet paper, a big area of consumption. We have a detailed debate on the translators list a few years back on the implications of rising costs and short supplies of paper for the bathroom. Gee, I sure hope we don't have to go back to reusable wooden sticks..... Paul D. Buell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:07:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Indexing images Hi all, Some folks have asked for more information on indexing images. The article was in jan/feb 94 Keywords -- "Keywording: The Key to Photo Marketing" by Allen Russell, and it mentioned the PACA Technology committee (Picture Agency Council of America). I have a phone number of 1-800-457-PACA, an email address of pacaoffice@aol.com, and a web site of www.cmsp.com/paca.htm/pages/paca.htm. These notes are all written on my copy of the keywords article, so some of this could be out of date, as I have not checked it recently. PACA was the group who established indexing guidelines for pictures. They were quite happy to send me a copy. I remember looking at the guidelines and deciding to change them in some ways for my project -- for instance, they recommended singular terms, and I always use plurals for online searching. Basically because if the user types in a plural, and your indexing is in singular, unless you have a really intelligent search engine they will not get a hit. ("Dogs" typed in by the user will not match "Dog" in the indexing). There's also a web article called "Pictures, Aboutness, and User-generated descriptors" at http://www.unt.edu/~aag0001/oconnor.html Jan C. Wright -- Wright Information Indexing Services -- -- jancw@aol.com -- http://users.aol.com/jancw/wrightinfo.htm -- "One has two duties: to be worried and not to be worried." -- E. M. Forster ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:19:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <199710242023.PAA26792@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Al: I was under the impression that paper was #1 by a long shot, >including toilet paper, a big area of consumption. We have a detailed >debate on the translators list a few years back on the implications of >rising costs and short supplies of paper for the bathroom. Gee, I sure >hope we don't have to go back to reusable wooden sticks..... Paul D. Buell Bleah! : P Information I have from forest-preservation folks shows logging for the paper industry (not just printing papers but toilet paper, paper towels, napkins, restaurant menus, etc. and wood chips (!) is far and away the biggest demon. But you can log onto any huge paper products company's website and it will tell you I'm making this up. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:50:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Al Stewart Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <199710242122.OAA26082@poseidon.van.hookup.net> At 04:19 PM 10/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Al: I was under the impression that paper was #1 by a long shot, >>including toilet paper, a big area of consumption. We have a detailed >>debate on the translators list a few years back on the implications of >>rising costs and short supplies of paper for the bathroom. Gee, I sure >>hope we don't have to go back to reusable wooden sticks..... Paul D. Buell > >Bleah! : P Information I have from forest-preservation folks >shows logging for the paper industry (not just printing papers but toilet >paper, paper towels, napkins, restaurant menus, etc. and wood chips (!) is >far and away the biggest demon. But you can log onto any huge paper >products company's website and it will tell you I'm making this up. Aw cmon. This is a group that prides itself on editing accuracy. How about actual percentage figures -- not just generalized statements from special interest groups on both sides. As to those "wood chips" -- much of that (I don't know the percentage) is going into construction. Look at some of the new subdivisions going up and see how much particle-board is used now instead of plywood or real boards. No I have nothing to do with the forest industry in any form -- for or against. I'm interested in the objective, realistic facts. Al ----------------------------------------- "Stewart Information Services" Manuscripts - Word Processing - OCR/Scanning Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com http://www.cadvision.com/stewarta/multi1a.htm ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <199710242154.QAA13680@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Aw cmon. This is a group that prides itself on editing accuracy. How about >actual percentage figures -- not just generalized statements from special >interest groups on both sides. > >As to those "wood chips" -- much of that (I don't know the percentage) is >going into construction. Look at some of the new subdivisions going up and >see how much particle-board is used now instead of plywood or real boards. > >No I have nothing to do with the forest industry in any form -- for or >against. I'm interested in the objective, realistic facts. > >Al > I'm interested in entertaining and informative communication, and have yet to see percentages quoted on this list to support conversation on any topic. Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive? Please, can we have a discussion on this list in which no one has any personal power ownership? IMO, a discussion about the future of the paper and printing industries is of interest to all of us who work in publishing. I don't have to -- and won't -- quote statistics in order to share my two cents about what I know from experience. Those of you who are longtime listers: If that sort of participation is necessary, I will gladly unsubcribe, 100 percent, right now. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:05:53 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: John Sullivan's reply... In-Reply-To: <199710231709.KAA24186@pacific.net> All-- John wrote: >Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness lately. Bob wrote: >Now, just to set the record straight regarding Lynn's obviously angry posting >on the Feel of Paper, and the one to which you responded: I think it distinctly odd to single out Lynn's post when there have in fact been several interchanges of late, which John referred to in plural. I also think that the ways in which people phrase their debate, and the words they choose, can be neutral or more or less subtly aggressive. I think Lynn's assessment of Paul's words is understandable. I also think that we indexers are not empowered to determine whether books continue to be published on paper. Not in this economic environment. So maybe we can retire this thread as interesting but tangential? I'm going to continue my life on the assumption that books will in fact be on paper, while understanding that they will be moving to other media as well. I have adjusted to many technological advances in my life. If it becomes necessary for me to work with online books, I will. Until then, I'm sticking with what I love. Best, Victoria P.S. Elsa, your perspective as a printer gives me heart. Thank you. vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Brittle and Yellow but not Wood Pulp In-Reply-To: <9710241942.AA12997@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Yes, from lambs, as used in Medieval Iceland. Of course it took some amazing number of sheep to produce the existing manuscripts. But if scholarly books are going to be $500 a pop the least they can be is on velum. (one l I think, I got carried away). Paul On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: > Paul D. Buell > > > >PS: I hold out for vellum myself. Anyone know a source of laser vellum? > >> > > Paul, do you mean *real* vellum, as in animal skin? > > Elsa Kramer > Indianapolis > .................................... > We don't see things as they are, > we see them as we are. > - Anais Nin > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:41:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <9710242215.AA03014@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Elsa: hang in there. I just don't know the percentage breakdown but will inquire. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: > >Aw cmon. This is a group that prides itself on editing accuracy. How about > >actual percentage figures -- not just generalized statements from special > >interest groups on both sides. > > > >As to those "wood chips" -- much of that (I don't know the percentage) is > >going into construction. Look at some of the new subdivisions going up and > >see how much particle-board is used now instead of plywood or real boards. > > > >No I have nothing to do with the forest industry in any form -- for or > >against. I'm interested in the objective, realistic facts. > > > >Al > > > I'm interested in entertaining and informative communication, and have yet > to see percentages quoted on this list to support conversation on any > topic. Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive? Please, can we have a > discussion on this list in which no one has any personal power ownership? > IMO, a discussion about the future of the paper and printing industries is > of interest to all of us who work in publishing. I don't have to -- and > won't -- quote statistics in order to share my two cents about what I know > from experience. Those of you who are longtime listers: If that sort of > participation is necessary, I will gladly unsubcribe, 100 percent, right > now. > > Elsa Kramer > Indianapolis > .................................... > We don't see things as they are, > we see them as we are. > - Anais Nin > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:50:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: John Sullivan's reply... In-Reply-To: <9710242229.AA04689@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Victoria: no I think Lynn's reponse to my words was absolutely incomprehensible. I felt it came from Mars. I was trying to be humorous in what I wrote as I thought she was. It was overreaction, pure and simple. And I agree with Elsa that nothing is could be more significant for this list than books and publishing, in all forms, including electronic. But maybe it is time for some of us to butt out. I will lead the procession. Ciao. Paul D. Buell On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Victoria Baker wrote: > All-- > John wrote: > >Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness lately. > > Bob wrote: > >Now, just to set the record straight regarding Lynn's obviously angry posting > >on the Feel of Paper, and the one to which you responded: > > I think it distinctly odd to single out Lynn's post when there have in fact > been several interchanges of late, which John referred to in plural. I > also think that the ways in which people phrase their debate, and the words > they choose, can be neutral or more or less subtly aggressive. I think > Lynn's assessment of Paul's words is understandable. > > I also think that we indexers are not empowered to determine whether books > continue to be published on paper. Not in this economic environment. So > maybe we can retire this thread as interesting but tangential? I'm going > to continue my life on the assumption that books will in fact be on paper, > while understanding that they will be moving to other media as well. I > have adjusted to many technological advances in my life. If it becomes > necessary for me to work with online books, I will. Until then, I'm > sticking with what I love. > > Best, > Victoria > > P.S. Elsa, your perspective as a printer gives me heart. Thank you. > > vbaker@pacific.net > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:59:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <9710242326.AA12815@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Charlotte: still having the same problem signingoff. The sever will not recognize the address my server is ending. Can you do it for me manually? Paul D. Buell PS: Want me to forward the message I am getting? On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Paul Buell wrote: > Elsa: hang in there. I just don't know the percentage breakdown but will > inquire. Paul D. Buell > > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: > > > >Aw cmon. This is a group that prides itself on editing accuracy. How about > > >actual percentage figures -- not just generalized statements from special > > >interest groups on both sides. > > > > > >As to those "wood chips" -- much of that (I don't know the percentage) is > > >going into construction. Look at some of the new subdivisions going up and > > >see how much particle-board is used now instead of plywood or real boards. > > > > > >No I have nothing to do with the forest industry in any form -- for or > > >against. I'm interested in the objective, realistic facts. > > > > > >Al > > > > > I'm interested in entertaining and informative communication, and have yet > > to see percentages quoted on this list to support conversation on any > > topic. Is there a hyphen in anal-retentive? Please, can we have a > > discussion on this list in which no one has any personal power ownership? > > IMO, a discussion about the future of the paper and printing industries is > > of interest to all of us who work in publishing. I don't have to -- and > > won't -- quote statistics in order to share my two cents about what I know > > from experience. Those of you who are longtime listers: If that sort of > > participation is necessary, I will gladly unsubcribe, 100 percent, right > > now. > > > > Elsa Kramer > > Indianapolis > > .................................... > > We don't see things as they are, > > we see them as we are. > > - Anais Nin > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Prakash S. Capen" Subject: Why jump ship? I'm quite selective about the mailing lists to which I subscribe. I wouldn't hesitate to drop one if it truly seemed a waste of my time. One professional mailing list proved consistently mean-spirited, and I departed. However, Index-L is a *wonderful* list. A fairly new indexer, I have learned volumes of valuable lessons and gotten much important information from Index-L. Although I rarely post to the list, I also enjoy the camaraderie. I think it would be a shame to jump ship just because it went through some choppy waters. Even the best mailing lists go through natural periods of disagreement, but Index-L is one that moves through those rather quickly. In my (somewhat humble) opinion, it's well worth it to stay with this intelligent, generous, good-humored group of professionals. Prakash * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Prakash S. Capen Irresistible Pages Indexing and Editorial Services prakash@moonstar.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:56:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Indexicon gone??? I just went to the Iconovex home page (www.iconovex.com) to look up something about Indexicon and I found no mention of Indexicon. I did a Web search on "Indexicon" and found an "Indexicion Ordering Page" at http://www.iconovex.com/INDEX/ORDER.HTM but most of the links from there to demos and downloads were defunct. I'm wondering if Iconovex has given up on it? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:50:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Indexing Images This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_877751391_boundary Content-ID: <0_877751391@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_877751391_boundary Content-ID: <0_877751391@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: <<> > Received: from mrin45.mail.aol.com (mrin45.mail.aol.com [152.163.116.83]) by air14.mail.aol.com (v35) with SMTP; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 2000 Received: from localhost (localhost) by mrin45.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with internal id XAA12901; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199710250306.XAA12901@mrin45.mail.aol.com> To: BECohen653@aol.com Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu: host not found) Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The original message was received at Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT) from root@localhost If your mail was returned due to a potentially misspelled AOL e-mail address, we may be able to assist you in finding the correct address. Point your WWW browser at http://www.idot.aol.com/search/ Here you will find instructions and a simple form to help you locate the email address you are looking for! NOTE: we cannot and will not divulge private information about members. Please only use the search resource if you believe that you may have misspelled a member's e-mail address. -AOL Postmaster ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu... Host unknown (Name server: bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu: host not found) ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin45.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) id XAA12874 for index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: BECohen653@aol.com Message-ID: <971024230655_914682856@mrin45.mail.aol.com> To: index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghaamton.edu Subject: Re:Indexing Images I just checked the PACA Web sites. Here are the current URLs: www.indexstock.com/pages/paca.htm (main page) www.indexstock.com/pages/keyguide.htm (keyword guide, 4 pages) --part0_877751391_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:21:12 -0400 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Subject: Re: Indexicon gone??? Richard Evans wrote: > I'm wondering if Iconovex has given up on it? I wouldn't be surprised. The only thing I use it for is entering/editing/finding index items since it has a better interface/functionality than the default Word dialog box. But it is pretty useless for actual indexing, ALIMHO -- ___________________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:01:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: Does "and" add anything? You wrote: > >. . . there were some entries that just "felt" better with "and": > >Austria > and Economic and Monetary Union > and Germany > and NATO > I often use the word "and" in a directed but vague sense, to signify that a subject has an effect on an object: that is, using "and" as a verb rather than as a conjunction. In my usage, "A:and B" means that "A" has an effect, or is a cause, of "B" while "B:A and" is the inversion: "B" is affected by, or caused by, "A" I wouldn't allow any of the examples that you give, because they are unrealistic: e.g., Austria and Germany are not commensurate. However, in the context of 20th-century politics, the entry: Germany and Austria *would* make sense: it suggests that Germany exerted an influence on Austria, had "designs" on Austria, and that Austria was a "target" of Germany. In this context, "and" is a verb, not a conjunction. In practice, I wouldn't often use "and" to link together nouns of the same class (Austria and Germany are both countries). But here are some other instances that make sense: smoking:and health and its inversion health:smoking and (smoking has an effect on health, not specified in this entry) United States:and NATO and its inversion NATO:U.S. and (the U.S. exercised some kind of influence on NATO) It is undeniable that this way of using "and" overloads the word. Perhaps another form of it, "&" , could be used to express the simple conjunction (e.g., "bacon:& eggs"). I don't deny, also, that it is often better to omit relation words ("and" "of" etc.) as your publisher suggests - but only when the relationship of terms is obvious. * * * ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:02:57 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Re: marketing, yet again In-Reply-To: <199710241748.KAA24538@darkwing.uoregon.edu> You wrote >This is the first time in seven years (since I began >indexing) that I've had to introduce myself without a contact, and I'm feeling >VERY awkward about it. Could you all share some of the ways that you've >introduced yourselves in these marketing letters. Or is it awkward for >everyone, along the lines of cold calls. These are just cold calls in letters, >after all. >Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Hi Leslie. I've struggled with this myself. On one of my cold calls (when I call to learn whether that Press uses freelance indexers, and to learn the name and title of the decisionmaker, plus verify address and phone) I accidentally got into a wonderful conversation with a non-decisionmaker at that Press. The letter I wrote to the decisionmaker, after that little conversation with the NON-decisionmaker, was warm and friendly and confident. I have adapted it for use in my introductory letter to other Presses. My suggestion is therefore, to write the introductory letter to a known, well-loved client or professional friend, THEN change what needs changing for the potential new client. I'm looking forward to other answers too. ****************************************************** Martha Osgood osgood@darkwing.uoregon.edu Back Words Indexing 541-484-1180 Eugene, OR Back-of-the-Book Indexing for Publishers and Authors ****************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:38:30 +0900 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Using Macrex with Quark XPress for Windows >From Christine Headley Having created an index with Macrex, I now want to produce it with Quark XPress on my PC. I cannot persuade the indents to behave as I would wish. Any ideas what I am doing wrong? TIA Christine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:45:03 +0000 Reply-To: lbindex@picard.omn.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lee Ellen Brower Organization: Brower Indexing Services Subject: Re: Nastiness and The feel of paper?? John R. Sullivan wrote: > > Seems as though this group has had more than its share of nastiness lately. > Though I have been reading my Index-L mail for two years, I have experienced only a couple of episodes of minor fussing, with no noticeable four-letter words. I am also subscribed to a HTML writers list, where at the frequent flow of vitriol maketh one cringe and people are addressed as if less than human. In comparison, we're a pretty civilized diverse group. Lee Brower - in the middle of a blizzard in Loveland, Colorado. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:20:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Richard S. Perla" Subject: Thanks for your help Saturday a.m Dear Listers, Many, many thanks for all your help with my CINDEX brain cramp. As usual the help came so quickly that I was able to take care of my problem before I was too deep into this index. You are a great group!! Onward! Jean Perla ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 06:49:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Nastiness > In comparison, we're a pretty >civilized diverse group. > >Lee Brower - in the middle of a blizzard in Loveland, Colorado. > Which is no reason for some to wish for more civility: a quality posters here are obviously capable of exhibiting. What's wrong with trying for better than favorable comparison with a lowest common denominator? Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 07:14:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: The feel of 00-grit!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199710231755.KAB26983@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> At 01:53 PM 10/23/97 -0400, Bob wrote: >Know also that during the past six >months or so she has suffered two major heart attacks and has to face her >mortality in a way that most of have, blessedly, been spared. I have never >known her to post such an angry message, nor have I ever her known her to be >angry in any conversation we have shared. She is one lovely lady, and if she >tipped over in her last posting I can only be concerned that she is >experiencing intractable health problems that have compromised her unfailing >good nature and have worn her down... Bob, I waited for two days before responding to this, in hopes that by sleeping on it (for two nights), this would somehow snap into a different perspective. But, I still can't believe how out of control this has become! This will be my last post on this subject which I'm really getting tired of. I can't believe that *you*, a person I've considered a good friend, would blindside me in this way!!! Do you realize that after Paul trivialized my response to him (typical sexist tactic #1) by referring to my opinion as not "serious", you then came along and made excuses for my legitimately angry response to Paul, by, in effect, saying that I'm hysterical (typical sexist tactic #2)? I'm not one who is likes to cry sexism, but this is classic. It's one thing to debate people on the facts of an issue, something I can do all day. But when it degenerates into these millenia-old tactics where, rather than address the issues, you two trivialize what you don't like or disagree with, I'm out of here. Lynn Having aired my grievance, the incident is over as far as I'm concerned, and I'm ready to move on to other things (like indexing, for example, ;-D). How Paul choses to deal with it (if at all) is strictly his business. One thing I had wayyyy more than my fill of in the hospital (and am getting a tiresome deja vu here) is criticism for airing legitimate objections to things like having IVs in the elbow creases of both arms (try eating a meal without being able to bend your arms ;-D) or some idiot suddenly drilling into an artery (not a vein) to draw blood gases without warning you; etc.--criticism delivered in the loud, meticulously articulated tones reserved for the mentally challenged--as if something was wrong with *me* for objecting to cavalier treatment of my own body. I'm now being told here on Index-L, in effect, that something was wrong with *me* (stress due to health problems) because I didn't quietly sit still while being publicly insulted. To be honest: a) my opinion was first characterized as not "serious"; and b) after objecting to that, being treated as if "hysterical". Now, if you think I "tipped over" in my last posting, I'm doing everything I can right now to keep from totally smashing the jar in this posting. But, for everyone's sake, including my own, instead of smashing the jar, I'll just shut up. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:38:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Lawrenc846 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Acid Ink and Book Worms Paul Buell wrote: Lawrence: one of the great tragedies of life is getting access to some old book or document that is in the process of disintegrating. What is impressive are the many old books that are not. I once held in my own two hands several Sung books from the Ch'ing imperial library that were still soft and pliable. The paper was not yellow or deteriorating at all and the print had not faded. I have also seen older East Asian manuscripts on the same kind of "paper" that are a thousand or more years old and can still be rolled and unrolled with no problem, and this after being sealed up in caves a Tun-huang. We have got to start producing better quality books. The 10-20 book just won't do. Paul D. Buell PS: I hold out for vellum myself. Anyone know a source of laser vellum? Lawrence Feldman responds: I couldn't agree more. Most of the paper at the Archives of the Indies is in very good condition. The examples I cite stuck in the mind because they were so unlike the vast majority. However one must remember that wood pulp isn't the only source of bad paper. Nor forget that by its very nature, the very old poor quality paper is likely to be far less common than the very old good quality paper. Finally it isn't just the paper. I've seen old, but good quality paper, with holes burnt in it by acid ink. The words have literally been cut out of the paper by the ink. Then there are book worms. Those tropical insects that turn a manuscript into paper lace. Bugs that don't distinguish between a recent wood pulp paperback or an earlier high quality paper manuscript, but view both as just another meal. Not everything paper can be kept in caves or is stored in a protective environment. They are a large part of the reason why many parts of the tropical lowlands (places like the port of Veracruz Mexico) lack most of their earlier records. They were eaten, by the bugs. Lawrence H. Feldman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:03:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <199710242326.SAA02104@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Elsa: hang in there. I just don't know the percentage breakdown but will >inquire. Paul D. Buell > Paul, thanks -- but I don't care. Statistics are made to be manipulated. There is no source for that information that cannot be refuted by another, and that was my point. When it comes down to personal beliefs about logging, or recycling, or animal skins or whatever, one person's constant is another person's variable. And though I've admitted a concern for the environment in previous postings, I also buy tons of paper every year, much of which gets thrown away either through waste in the printing process or because those on the receiving end discard it. Clearly, I believe in the future of printed materials or I wouldn't be in the business I'm in. But what Greenpeace, or the government, or International Paper Company has to say about it statistically or otherwise is of limited value to me in my decision-making. I hope you won't waste list space quoting a bunch of numbers that several of us will then feel compelled to argue the merits of. I agree with Victoria; this thread is no longer valuable to the group. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:35:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: index worms, anyone? As a renter, I have neglected composting. Finally I have a "garden" apartment with space for a worm composting "system." This past week, I began an experiment to see if the worms would eat old index pages. After corn cobs (strange, but true) the laser-printed pages appear to be quite delicious to the red wigglers. I may grow enough worms to eat all my outdated index pages, but going through the process just reminds me that we all need to work together on the conservation we and future generations deserve. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:05:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: index worms, anyone? In-Reply-To: <199710251539.KAA05401@beavis.inetdirect.net> >As a renter, I have neglected composting. Finally I have a "garden" >apartment with space for a worm composting "system." This past week, I began >an experiment to see if the worms would eat old index pages. After corn cobs >(strange, but true) the laser-printed pages appear to be quite delicious to >the red wigglers. > >I may grow enough worms to eat all my outdated index pages, but going >through the process just reminds me that we all need to work together on the >conservation we and future generations deserve. >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > (Perhaps those pages were printed with soy ink? Yummm!) Well said, Pam. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:00:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Al Stewart Subject: Re: Vellum paper In-Reply-To: <199710251441.HAA00979@poseidon.van.hookup.net> For those interested in Vellum paper for Laser printing, try: Paper Direct P.O. Box 2187 Secaucus NJ 07096-2187 1-800-272-7377 (They also have a Canadian address) I don't know if it is the kind of Vellum you're looking for, but their catalog from a few months back listed Vellum for laser printing. Good luck. Al ----------------------------------------- "Stewart Information Services" Manuscripts - Word Processing - OCR/Scanning Al Stewart -- stewarta@kootenay.awinc.com http://www.cadvision.com/stewarta/multi1a.htm ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:22:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: The feel of 00-grit!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <9710251424.AA28220@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Lynn: no one would dream of trivilializing your or anyone else's ideas and certainy not out of any sexism. I thought your posting about not being able to read electronic books in the bath tub was very witty and clever and I tried to reply in a humorous way, although bringing up the opposing view about tree-cropping, one regarding which I am not yet convinced. You have many friends on the list who worry about you. Don't be so hard on Bob. The whole thing is passed as far as I am concerned. Paul (in Seattle, still trying to depart but with no luck). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:26:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Acid Ink and Book Worms In-Reply-To: <861ed2ee.34520421@aol.com> I have read what Boxer and others have to say about the Indies stuff. I think the Macao archives are almost entirely gone. Only a few things taken back to Portugal and copies survive. Very sad! But at least the Portuguese are now putting things on CD-ROM. Paul On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Lawrenc846 wrote: > Paul Buell wrote: > > Lawrence: one of the great tragedies of life is getting access to some old > book or document that is in the process of disintegrating. What is impressive > are the many old books that are not. I once held in my own two hands several > Sung books from the Ch'ing imperial library that were still soft and pliable. > The paper was not yellow or deteriorating at all and > the print had not faded. I have also seen older East Asian manuscripts on the > same kind of "paper" that are a thousand or more years old and can still be > rolled and unrolled with no problem, and this after being sealed up in caves a > Tun-huang. We have got to start producing better quality > books. The 10-20 book just won't do. Paul D. Buell > > PS: I hold out for vellum myself. Anyone know a source of laser vellum? > > > Lawrence Feldman responds: > > I couldn't agree more. Most of the paper at the Archives of the Indies is in > very good condition. The examples I cite stuck in the mind because they were > so unlike the vast majority. > > However one must remember that wood pulp isn't the only source of bad paper. > Nor forget that by its very nature, the very old poor quality paper is likely > to be far less common than the very old good quality paper. > > Finally it isn't just the paper. I've seen old, but good quality paper, with > holes burnt in it by acid ink. The words have literally been cut out of the > paper by the ink. > > Then there are book worms. Those tropical insects that turn a manuscript > into paper lace. Bugs that don't distinguish between a recent wood pulp > paperback or an earlier high quality paper manuscript, but view both as just > another meal. Not everything paper can be kept in caves or is stored in a > protective environment. They are a large part of the reason why many parts > of the tropical lowlands (places like the port of Veracruz Mexico) lack most > of their earlier records. They were eaten, by the bugs. > > Lawrence H. Feldman > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:30:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: Is paper really the criminal here? (was feel of paper) In-Reply-To: <9710251459.AA29475@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Elsa: I reenforce your point that "statistics are made to be manipulated" and for that matter most facts. I once argued with a Russian about the battle of Borodino and learned a valuable lesson. He had the Russian encyclopaedia which said that the Russians had won, I had a French one which said, you guessed it... Paul PS: For what it is worth, the UW Forestry Department intro course teaches that paper and similar uses are No. 1. Who knows? Yes, let us drop this. On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Elsa F. Kramer wrote: > >Elsa: hang in there. I just don't know the percentage breakdown but will > >inquire. Paul D. Buell > > > Paul, thanks -- but I don't care. Statistics are made to be manipulated. > There is no source for that information that cannot be refuted by another, > and that was my point. When it comes down to personal beliefs about > logging, or recycling, or animal skins or whatever, one person's constant > is another person's variable. And though I've admitted a concern for the > environment in previous postings, I also buy tons of paper every year, much > of which gets thrown away either through waste in the printing process or > because those on the receiving end discard it. Clearly, I believe in the > future of printed materials or I wouldn't be in the business I'm in. But > what Greenpeace, or the government, or International Paper Company has to > say about it statistically or otherwise is of limited value to me in my > decision-making. I hope you won't waste list space quoting a bunch of > numbers that several of us will then feel compelled to argue the merits of. > I agree with Victoria; this thread is no longer valuable to the group. > > Elsa Kramer > Indianapolis > .................................... > We don't see things as they are, > we see them as we are. > - Anais Nin > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:34:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Buell Subject: Re: index worms, anyone? In-Reply-To: <9710251539.AA01450@henson.cc.wwu.edu> Pan, another way to compost paper is bunnies. They will eat it when they get bored. Mine loves cardboard. Will try the worms with paper, however, we have a bunch of them in a plastic container too. Paul On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, Pam Rider wrote: > As a renter, I have neglected composting. Finally I have a "garden" > apartment with space for a worm composting "system." This past week, I began > an experiment to see if the worms would eat old index pages. After corn cobs > (strange, but true) the laser-printed pages appear to be quite delicious to > the red wigglers. > > I may grow enough worms to eat all my outdated index pages, but going > through the process just reminds me that we all need to work together on the > conservation we and future generations deserve. > Pam Rider > Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > > prider@electriciti.com > prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:32:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Indexicon gone??? In-Reply-To: <345173B8.4FD526A3@sageline.com> It looks like Indexicon is still "going strong". Check out http://bushido.iconovex.con/INDEX I too have grave misgivings about this and similar programs. I mostly use it as an illustration of "questionaable" automated indexing in my Indexing course. Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, William Meisheid wrote: > Richard Evans wrote: > > > I'm wondering if Iconovex has given up on it? > > I wouldn't be surprised. The only thing I use it for is > entering/editing/finding index items since it has a better > interface/functionality than the default Word dialog box. But it is > pretty useless for actual indexing, ALIMHO > -- > ___________________________________________________________________ > William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" > Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com > Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 > WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc > CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:37:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Indexicon gone??? (fwd) Whoops -- just ignore the message I sent regarding the URL for Indexicon. It appears that those links are also now defunct. Well, RIP Indexicon. Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca It looks like Indexicon is still "going strong". Check out http://bushido.iconovex.con/INDEX I too have grave misgivings about this and similar programs. I mostly use it as an illustration of "questionaable" automated indexing in my Indexing course. Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@unixg.ubc.ca On Sat, 25 Oct 1997, William Meisheid wrote: > Richard Evans wrote: > > > I'm wondering if Iconovex has given up on it? > > I wouldn't be surprised. The only thing I use it for is > entering/editing/finding index items since it has a better > interface/functionality than the default Word dialog box. But it is > pretty useless for actual indexing, ALIMHO > -- > ___________________________________________________________________ > William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" > Certified RoboHELP Training email: wgm@sageline.com > Sageline Publishing 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.465.1812 > WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum - Sysop for: Style/Concepts/Etc > CSi email: 70713.2225@compuserve.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 13:40:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: CINDEX: Cannot format record N For the CINDEX gurus on the list. I have a delimited ASCII file of 25,000 records. I read it into CINDEX OK in indented format, but I need it in runin format. As soon as I change the style to runin, I get the above message. CINDEX hangs, and I have to close it from the Task List. Furthermore, the next time I open the file it immediately hangs again with the same message. The only way to recover is to delete the file, create a new one, and read the DAT file in again. According to the CINDEX manual, the message means that Record N is too long, but it doesn't offer any suggestions for working around the problem. I'm in a bind on this and can't wait until Monday when the Indexing Research folks are back. Any ideas? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:41:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Indexicon gone??? From Index-L mailing list: > It looks like Indexicon is still "going strong". Check out > http://bushido.iconovex.con/INDEX This is one of those frustrating Web site navigation problems. I can enter the above link (with COM instead of CON) and can indeed get to the Indexicon Web page. However, if I go to the Iconovex main Home page, I cannot navigate to the Indexicon page; you have to know the URL in order to get to it. There are NO LINKS to products from the Inconovex Web site. None. If you click on the company name, you get a fact sheet with some underlined text, but no live links. Also, when I go to the Indexicon page by entering the above URL manually, all the links to downloads and product info are "404 file not found." That is, dead links. So, either the Web pages have lots of errors, or the product is no longer available and they forgot to remove its Web page. I can't think of any other options, though there may be some. I'm copying this note to the Iconovex Webmaster, and will post to the list any replies I get. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:28:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: CINDEX: Cannot format record N At 01:40 PM 10/25/97 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >For the CINDEX gurus on the list. > >I have a delimited ASCII file of 25,000 records. I read it into CINDEX OK >in indented format, but I need it in runin format. As soon as I change the >style to runin, I get the above message. CINDEX hangs, and I have to close >it from the Task List. Furthermore, the next time I open the file it >immediately hangs again with the same message. The only way to recover is >to delete the file, create a new one, and read the DAT file in again. > >According to the CINDEX manual, the message means that Record N is too >long, but it doesn't offer any suggestions for working around the problem. Dick-- This happens to me all the time in CINDEX in run-in format if a record is too large, as in indexes of some biographies or other works where there are many subheadings or references. The only thing that one can do, according to what I once got from the CINDEX help desk, is to chop the offending record up into sections in the indented format, like Finkelstein, Louis (1), Finkelstein, Louis (2)(this is from a real example--I cut it up into sections by a-f subheads, and so on), depending on how big the record is. You may have to do this for all extremely large records, BTW, just to be on the safe side. You should then be able to format the index in run-in style. Then when you export the index into Word or whatever, you have to go through the large records that you have sectioned and remove the (1) (2), etc. The subentries just pop into place with no problem in the Word file if you have saved the file in CINDEX using typesetting tags. Hope this helps. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: INDEX-L discussion topics Just for the record, I would like to mention that the stated purpose of INDEX-L is to discuss indexing and things directly related to indexing. Lately we have been all over the map with certain topics and discussions where no mention of indexing has been made at all. Don't get me wrong, I greatly enjoy reading about medieval paper, illuminated manuscripts, or whatever relates to books and the transfer of ideas--I just would rather that posters to the list try a little harder to relate these things more directly to indexing. Thanks! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:53:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Buchanan Organization: Buchanan Indexing and Editing Subject: Cindex freezing I was interested to hear about Dick Evans' problem with Cindex freezing in certain situations with large records. I also have a "freezing" problem with an index with large records and Cindex is trying to find out why. With one particular index (record size 280, number of records 1250) - 90% of the time switching from draft view to formatted view causes the screen to freeze with one record (formatted) on the screen; it is Ctrl-Alt-Del time yet again. I have to create a new index and read in the index from my floppy. Causes a LOT of panic at midnight when the index is due the next day. What works some of the time is to effect the change wanted (in my case, from draft to formatted view) on a group of approximately 10-15 records and then switch to "View all." It works enough times for me to make it worth a try; I don't know if this would help with the indented/run-in problem until a real solution is found. Cynthia's idea of breaking up large entries is fine but of course my client works in QuarkXPress and I cannot manipulate the entries as one could with an .rtf file. Sometimes index cards and a pencil look very attractive! Patricia ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:52:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: The feel of 00-grit!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199710251424.HAA18758@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Bob, In my distress, I came down harder on you far more than you deserved in my earlier response to you! (And this was after waiting for two days before posting.) Your heart and intentions were in the right place and that's what truly counts when all is said and done. Though I wrote you privately, I felt it important to apologize for my harshness to you in the same venue where I blasted you. I do believe you meant well and had only my interests at heart when you posted your message. My deepest apologies! Sorry, folks. If any of you scrolled down beyond where I signed my earlier message, you saw a passage that starts in a middle of a thought. It was part of an earlier draft that I meant to delete. I didn't mean to bore you all with even more about my hospital experience, which is one reason I rewrote the message. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 15:55:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: The feel of 00-grit!!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199710251712.KAA21768@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 10:22 AM 10/25/97 -0700, Paul wrote: >The whole thing is passed as far as I am concerned. And I too am glad to consider it all over! :-) (And probably everyone else here is breathing a sigh of relief. ;-D) Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:11:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MariaYoung@AOL.COM Subject: CINDEX Support In a message dated 97-10-25 13:42:47 EDT, Dick Evans writes: > I'm in a bind on this and can't wait until Monday when the Indexing > Research folks are back. Just a reminder to CINDEX users out there--CINDEX support is always available via e-mail at: support@indexres.com We check this several times daily--seven days a week. Maria Sullivan Young CINDEX Tech Support ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:51:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Zip drive usage Hello, all-- Just a footnote to a previous discussion. While gloomily contemplating a system expansion and upgrade, including any changes to my existing tape and disk drives, I met a neighbor who, it turns out, does electronic publishing and typesetting! She uses Zip drives, but for a purpose I had not considered: when working on a document containing images, she retains all the images on a seperate Zip cartridge while the text resides on her hard drive. Apparently this also enables her to ship the finished product to the final publisher in this form: two packages which are actually assembled at the far end into the final document. Makes sense. I wonder [rhetorically, of course] whether or not this is a common practice, and whether it requires a particularly astute and congenial puiblisher? Just a tip I thought I would share with the experts. NOT rhetorical: it is possible that my meeting with this neighbor may result in a professional relationship after a time. I do not yet have ANY idea whether or not she develops indexes or has any say in their production; her principal publisher seems to be Peachpit Press, which many of us on the list know about. We traded e-mail addresses, and I I will shortly be sending her instructions on how to subscribe to Index-L. She may have no lasting interest, but I told her how professional, eloquent, supportive, and generally charming we all are, right? "Try it, you'll like it." Cheers, dllt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:47:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: Re: Zip drive usage In-Reply-To: <199710260107.UAA06828@beavis.inetdirect.net> >Hello, all-- > >Just a footnote to a previous discussion. While gloomily contemplating >a system expansion and upgrade, including any changes to my existing >tape and disk drives, I met a neighbor who, it turns out, does electronic >publishing and typesetting! She uses Zip drives, but for a purpose I >had not considered: when working on a document containing images, she >retains all the images on a seperate Zip cartridge while the text resides >on her hard drive. Apparently this also enables her to ship the finished >product to the final publisher in this form: two packages which are >actually assembled at the far end into the final document. Makes sense. > >I wonder [rhetorically, of course] whether or not this is a common >practice, and whether it requires a particularly astute and congenial >puiblisher? This is exactly the way we often do it at my company. There are place holders in the text that show precisely where the images will go. Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 06:30:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Indexicon, Iconovex, and Innovex I know this is a long posting, but it is a lot shorter than it could be. ;-} Indexicon is (was?) produced by Iconovex a division of the Innovex Corp. InnoMedica is another division that is referred to in these reports. Innovex is a publicly traded company and must file various reports with the Securities & Exchange Commission (SEC). These reports are availabe at the Company's web site: http://www.innovexinc.com I have gone through several 10-K and 10-Q SEC reports looking for information about the Iconovex division (www.iconovex.com). It's rather interesting. Unless otherwise noted, the following information is from Innovex's public filings. All of my thoughts are preceded with "My Comments". Keep in mind that software is not the primary business of Innovex Corp. Actually, software a drop in the bucket compared to the revenue generated from their main business interests. Here is how they describe themselves: Innovex is a diversified manufacturer of electrical components for the computer electronics and medical instruments markets, as well as a developer of computer software. Innovex is known world-wide for its excellence in advanced engineering and low cost manufacturing. The company's common stock is traded on the National Over-the-Counter market under the NASDAQ symbol INVX. ****SEC Report Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended September 30, 1996 To further promote the Company's long-term growth, the Iconovex Division was formed in fiscal 1994 through the purchase of a technologically advanced software product line in November 1993. This product prepares indexes and abstracts of electronically stored documents. As the first software of its type, this high speed system utilizes syntactical analysis to recognize meanings and relationships among words and phrases in general business, legal, medical and other documents. Syntactical analysis is more accurate than conventional Boolean search systems that only recognize specific words. Initial releases of products derived from this technology began generating revenue in fiscal 1994. Different variations of the software are being developed for use by Internet World Wide Web sites, personal computer users, electronic media publishers, and other on-line system providers and users. Sales from Iconovex and InnoMedica made up less than 5% of the Company's total revenue in fiscal 1996. These sales are expected to grow in fiscal 1997 as their products and markets continue to develop. During 1994, the Company purchased a software product line for $835,600 which prepares indexes and abstracts of documents stored in computer hard drives and CD/ROM systems. The purchase agreement also requires the Company to pay a 15% royalty on product receipts up to a maximum of $4,500,000 and 7.5% of product receipts thereafter for a period of 5 years, subject to certain minimum royalty payment requirements necessary to maintain the exclusive rights to sell the product. Guaranteed minimum royalty payments of $715,000 are payable for each of the calendar years ended December 31, 1996 through 1998. My Comments: Note that shareholders are told that the sales for the Iconovex division are expected to grow in fiscal 1997. Also take note of what they paid for their software engine and they are tied into minimum royalty payments of $715,000 per year through 1998! ****SEC Report Form 10-Q for the period ended March 31, 1997 The Company also operates two other divisions, Iconovex and InnoMedica. These divisions currently only produce a small portion of the Company's revenue. Iconovex is responsible for the further development and marketing of a document handling software product which was purchased in November 1993. The purchased software prepares indexes and abstracts of documents stored on electronic media. The initial application derived from the purchased software, Indexicon, was designed for use on personal computers and began shipping in fiscal 1994. Another product, AnchorPage, was released in fiscal 1995. AnchorPage enables Internet World Wide Web sites to provide their users access to web site information automatically using conceptual navigational techniques. The Division's newest product, EchoSearch, was released during the fiscal 1996 fourth quarter. EchoSearch, is a desktop based tool for browsers of the World Wide Web which enables users to simultaneously query multiple search engines. The search responses are indexed and abstracted to present the user a condensed view that improves both the speed and accuracy of the search. The Division intends to locate either a marketing partner, buyer or licensee for its technology prior to the end of the fiscal year. Revenues from the Company's Iconovex and InnoMedica Divisions remain a small portion of the Company's total sales. Iconovex continues to operate at a loss and is not expected to improve significantly for the remainder of the fiscal year. My Comments: Note that Iconovex operates at a loss and is not expected to improve much. In this report they are trying to find a marketing partner, BUYER, or licensee for their "technology". The red ink must continue to flow. ****SEC Report Form 10-Q for the Period ended June 30, 1997. Revenues from the Company's Iconovex and InnoMedica Divisions remain a small portion of the Company's total sales. Both Iconovex and InnoMedica generated operating losses during the third quarter and are not expected to improve significantly for the remainder of the fiscal year. InnoMedica is expected to break-even during the next fiscal year while efforts are being made to find a buyer or joint venture partner for Iconovex which should improve their impact on the Company's combined fiscal 1998 operating results. My Comments: Still looking for help with the software division. Remember the minimum royalty payments they have to make. Also, keep in mind the functionality (or lack thereof) of the products themselves. The following news release was issued on October 8, 1997 Innovex Finalizes Joint Venture Agreement Concerning its Iconovex Division October 8, 1997-Hopkins, MN-Innovex, Inc. (NASDAQ:INVX) today announced the execution of a joint venture agreement concerning its Iconovex division. Iconovex is a computer software developer best known for its proprietary product, EchoSearch, a natural language search and indexing tool. The joint venture agreement, entered into with Solutions Corporation of America in Nashville Tennessee, will provide the marketing and product distribution expertise necessary for Iconovex's growth and profitability. Solutions Corporation of America ("Solutions") is a privately held corporation which provides marketing expertise in various technological areas. Its clients have included Procter & Gamble, Sony America, AT&T, General Motors, Sega and Health Professionals, Inc. The joint venture will take the form of a newly incorporated entity, Smart Solution, fifty-one percent of which will be owned by Innovex and the remainder by Solutions. Smart Solution intends to initially target the corporate intranet market by providing a product to organize, analyze, screen and index E-mail, and to eventually perform the same function for entire corporate databases. Smart Solution's first product, based on the underlying EchoSearch technology, is already being tested at a major health care provider and is expected to be in Beta before the end of this year. Smart Solution intends to launch a similar product for legal professionals in the first quarter of 1998. Testing of that product will begin shortly at one of the nation's largest law firms. Since EchoSearch incorporates natural language processing ability, rather than the Boolean algebra employed by other search and indexing tools, it allows for the development of "dictionaries" specific to individual industries. Smart Solution intends to initially use this ability to target the health care and legal professions with a search, screening and indexing tool that can "understand" their specialized vocabularies. My Comments: Notice that Indexicon is not mentioned at all. It looks like Iconovex, their software division, is going away. This joint venture will create a new entity called Smart Solution with 51% ownership by Innovex. This should help their bottom line since thier exposure is reduced from 100% to 51%. I can't help but wonder what this means in regard to thier minimum royalty payments for the technology they purchased in 1993. It's possible that Indexicon may be on its way out. It's hard to imagine that a product like that could ever generate adequate operating profits to pay the royalties due. -nancy Nancy Mulvany nmulvany@well.com Books for Indexers ===> http://www.well.com/~nmulvany ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 09:39:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: Zip drive usage Hi Dave, et al, I use my ZIP in the same ways that your neighbor does. I contract to large corporations, writing large technical manuals as well as indexes. (I was a technical writer in my first life, and still do a fair amount of it.) About a year or so ago, we (the 3 of us who work together on these large contracts) realized that we all needed to buy ZIP drives to transfer files; they were just getting too big to transfer via modem...even compressed! These are 200 page manuals in MS Word or FrameMaker which have illustrations on nearly every page. We've learned to keep the illustrations/scanned images *in* the document files. We tried keeping them separate or linked; it just didn't work satisfactorily for us. > I wonder [rhetorically, of course] whether or not this is a common > practice, and whether it requires a particularly astute and congenial > puiblisher? I think it's getting more common every week. We now deliver our tecnical publications and users' manuals on ZIP disk to our printer. Any printer who prints documents for corporate clients would accommodate ZIP disks, I would think. I wouldn't expect many publishers to have this capability though; most publishers that I work with just want an ASCII file on 3.5" disk. I suspect that even Kinkos could accept files on ZIP disks, although I haven't asked them. I highly recommend a ZIP drive and disks for those who work with large documents. I think it's an economical, portable, and convenient way to backup files and transport files that are too big to send compressed via modem. I take my ZIP drive on the road with me when I take my laptop; it easily connects to any PC and saves a lot of time transferring files. Hope this helps. Peg Mauer | http://members.aol.com/Pmauer/index.html Communication Link | phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing | fax: (518) 359-8235 PO Box 192 | co-leader of Western NY ASI chapter Piercefield, NY 12973 | Manager of STC Indexing SIG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:44:11 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Zip drive usage In-Reply-To: <199710261441.GAA00906@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 09:39 AM 10/26/97 -0500, Peg wrote: >Hi Dave, et al, > >I use my ZIP in the same ways that your neighbor does. I contract to large >corporations, writing large technical manuals as well as indexes. (I was a >technical writer in my first life, and still do a fair amount of it.) About a >year or so ago, we (the 3 of us who work together on these large contracts) >realized that we all needed to buy ZIP drives to transfer files; they were >just getting too big to transfer via modem...even compressed! These are 200 >page manuals in MS Word or FrameMaker which have illustrations on nearly >every page. We've learned to keep the illustrations/scanned images *in* the >document files. We tried keeping them separate or linked; it just didn't work >satisfactorily for us. Hi Peg, I'm no longer a tech writer, but because I often do embedded indexing, I too am considering buying a Zip drive for transferring files. You mentioned FrameMaker books and even the 200-pagers are weighing in at 20 Megs minimum. I have a 28.8K modem, but the FTP downloads are beginning to take so long that upgrading to a 56K modem or to an ISDN modem/line doesn't even seem reasonable anymore. (After all, you can't download files any faster than the FTP site can deliver them and the Internet itself is becoming sloooooower and slower with ever-increasing traffic it seems. And we won't even mention when a client decides to send an entire FrameMaker book via email attachments, without warning!!! ;-D) I've also had problems in FrameMaker 5 with linked illustrations. >I highly recommend a ZIP drive and disks for those who work with large >documents. I think it's an economical, portable, and convenient way to backup >files and transport files that are too big to send compressed via modem. I >take my ZIP drive on the road with me when I take my laptop; it easily >connects to any PC and saves a lot of time transferring files. Hope this >helps. Additional reasons for buying a ZIP drive are, IMHO, more rapid access (random vs. sequential) to backups and offline (but easily accessible) access to less frequently-used software. (Would you believe that I have to keep four different flavors of FrameMaker, for example, to meet the needs of different clients? Right now, all of them are hogging up my hard drive.) As they say, you can't be too rich, too thin, or have too much drive space. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:38:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Zip drive usage Has anyone had experience with the new 120 Meg 3.5" floppy drive replacement? I am not talking about ZIP drives, but about a product that will read/write your standard 1.44 Meg floppies and will also read/write to new 120 Meg floppies. It is called the "SuperDisk Drive" by Imation. In the catalogs that I have seen, the ZIP diskettes hold 100 Meg and cost around $20 each. The SuperDisks hold 120 Meg and cost around $15 each. I haven't seen an "internal" SuperDisk yet, but if they exist, I would give serious thought to replacing my standard 3.5" drive with the higher capacity unit. Just for your info, the external units are currently in the $200 range. Just curious. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:22:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Indexicon, Iconovex, and Innovex Very interesting stuff Nancy! I have some interesting stuff of my own (on a different product) that I will send to you later. Kamm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:36:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Column continuation I have a genealogical index of over 25k names. The index will ultimately be formatted for a 9x12 page, five columns, 7-point type, runin format. Probably 60 pages or more for the index. Each primary is a surname, in bold, with alll given names as runin subentries. Sometimes, the list of subentries is really long, long enough to cross a page boundary. When this happens, the first line of the next page is a given name and the reader has to search backward to find what family name it belongs to. The publisher would like dictionary-style headings such that the surname is carried forward from page to page. I don't know any way to do this automatically. It could be done manually if the file were in its final 9x12 format and someone were to sit down and manually type the continuation headers, but that someone would have to be in the DTP shop. Suggestions? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elsa F. Kramer" Subject: indexing quote Sears, Roebuck, and Co., Consumer's Guide, 1897: "If you don't find it in the index, look very carefully through the entire catalogue." Elsa Kramer Indianapolis .................................... We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:33:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: does "and" add anything? Peter and Joe, Thanks for your thoughtful comments on "and." Concerning my specific example, Austria and Economic and Monetary Union and Germany and NATO this *is* a book on 20th century politics, and I was specifically asked not to use "relations with" and to make every effort to put the most important word of the subentry first, which is why I put "Austria, and Germany" instead of "relations with Germany." I couldn't be more specific about the relations because they were too varied and would have required too many separate subentries (no sub-subs allowed). However, the topic of the book itself determined the context, so that people looking up Austria would probably know what types of interactions were meant by "Austria, and Germany"--especially if that is the entry they seek. It does seem that "and" feels right with the cause-and-effect relationships Peter described ("smoking, and health"). It also seems to me that it feels right with nonobvious relationships, where the subentry is not an attribute (e.g., "agricultural policies" are an attribute of any country) or a subset ("armed forces, Eurocorps"). It is certainly true that it is good to try to make these subentries as specific as possible, but in the interests of space and readability and clustering related concepts I find it is frequently too cumbersome to be more specific than "and." It is true that "Austria, and NATO" doesn't tell you anything about what type of information will be given, but readers can go look on the 4 page references themselves! Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:39:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Philip and Heather Jones Subject: Re: Using Macrex with Quark XPress for Windows At 01:38 PM 10/25/97 +0900, you wrote: > >Having created an index with Macrex, I now want to produce it with Quark >XPress on my PC. I cannot persuade the indents to behave as I would >wish. Christine, The publisher that puts my files into QuarkXPress has me code for every subentry, with a hard return after each one. Maybe QuarkXpress can't read tabs? Have you tried using hanging indents? These have become the joy of my life... Heather /---------------------------------------------------------------------\ | There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... | |---------------------------------------------------------------------| | Phil, Heather, Doug and Ivy Jones hpjones@rt66.com | | Los Alamos, NM | \---------------------------------------------------------------------/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:53:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Cindex freezing I, too, am very curious about this freezing problem; it happens to me fairly regularly, and not with really large records/files. I might have up to 900 entries and rarely have records exceeding 200 characters. But, as I mentioned some months ago, CINDEX has problems when I've finished entering and am moving from edit or draft view to formatted view. Since I use CINDEX in a DOS window in Win95, I don't have to restart the computer when it freezes. I just force the window to close and open the file again. The file is still usable although I may lose an edit or two because it didn't get a chance to save. I have been working on finding a solution myself, and have gathered some information from Peter Norton's guide to Win95 that I have yet to try out. Norton's book says that DOS programs are often not fully compatible with the other stuff on your Win95-run machine; they generally assume they have the whole machine to themselves, so that when they go to use a memory location that may be used by one of your background-running utilities, or something, it can't adjust and freezes up. I'll let you know what happens when I try one of the Norton suggestions on how to make DOS programs run better. You're supposed to tweak the stuff in the properties window for the DOS application and see what happens. Wish me luck. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: Zip drive usage Kamm, I have used a zip drive for quite some time and the disc price is only in the high teens if you buy one at a time. In packages of ten it is between $11 and $14 depending on the manufacuturer. If the new drive is intented for in-house use only, fine, but if you are planning to interface with printers, etc. I would check around before buying. One advantage that the zip has is that it combines durability with transportability. IMHO Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:25:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: Zip drive usage People were talking about Zip drives awhile ago, and the advantages of the internal SCSI model for speed vs. the external parallel port model for portability. Yesterday I saw an external SCSI version for $134 (if memory serves me right) - great speed and portability too, if all your machines have SCSI cards. Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blake Carver Subject: No Subject getpost feel of ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Zip drive usage Dawn, Thanks for the info. I am actually interested in the alternative high density floppy for internal use only. It has the nice feature of being backward compatible with a standard floppy so that if I can find an internal version I would not be taking up any additional space in my computer. I agree with you that a ZIP drive is probably a better choice for most indexers since it is much more likely that the people or companies that you work with will have a ZIP drive also. Making exchanging large documents VERY handy. It also appears that the ZIP drives are for the most part reliable and inexpensive. Thanks again for the info. It is nice to know that there are companies that sell at more reasonable prices than the companies that I have catalogs for apparently do! Kamm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Healy Subject: Re: Zip drive usage In-Reply-To: <199710280208.VAA30693@fn4.freenet.tlh.fl.us> Vicki, I have an external SCSI zip drive on my pc at home. Unfortunately none at the office, but I understand that our data center is intalling internal zips in some machines. The SCSI card cost me about $45 and will run several peripherals. I've had no difficulty running software from my Zip and it handles backups beautifully. I like the fact that the disks are so durable. Sue Healy Fla. Legislature Div. of Statutory Revision On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, Vicki Birchfield wrote: > People were talking about Zip drives awhile ago, and the advantages of the > internal SCSI model for speed vs. the external parallel port model for > portability. Yesterday I saw an external SCSI version for $134 (if memory > serves me right) - great speed and portability too, if all your machines > have SCSI cards. > > Vicki > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: AOL Chat and New Grandma Don't forget tonight AOL chat 8:30 Central Time. I am a first time Grandma of a healty baby boy 5 lbs. 4 oz. Mom and baby are fine. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:45:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Automatic indexing I have been reading a book entitled _The Language Instinct_ by Steven Pinker (William Morrow and Company, Inc. NY, 1994.) Pinker's premise is that language is an instinct and his arguments are persuasive. His explanations of how languages work offer insight into the dilemmas faced by those designing computer programs for language analysis. Their task is daunting. I recommend the book to anyone who is still worried that computers will supplant indexers anytime in the near future. A bonus is that Pinker has a well-developed sense of humor and doesn't stifle it. Craig Brown ===================================== The Last Word Indexing (314)352-9094 lastword@i1.net ===================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:52:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: James Lasenby Subject: SIGNOFF INDEX-L SIGNOFF INDEX-L myname -------------------------------------------------------------- myname Fermilab Kirk and Wilson Roads / WH-xxx PO Box 500, Mail Stop xxx Batavia, IL 60510 PH......: 630-840-xxxx FAX.....: 630-840-xxxx E-MAIL..: myname@fnal.gov -------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:41:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy K Humphreys Subject: Cindex Freezing Joanne, what version of Cindex are you using? I use 5.0 in a Win95 Dos bo= x in a split screen with Endnote, Word or WordPerfect and have never had a freeze (knock on wood!). Peter Norton's book is really good, but I'm surprised if he didn't say that Win95 problems with DOS programs are usually with games software. I'd suggest using the Mac technicians' old trick and reinstalling your Cindex software if it keeps freezing. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:06:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Job description for thesaurus builder My library is looking for a sample position description for a 'thesaurus builder' - someone who creates thesauri - to use in designing a temporary position. If you have a sample that you would be willing to share, please send it by email to cweaver@u.washington.edu or by snail mail to: Carolyn Weaver Associate Director for Administration University of Washington Health Sciences Library Box 357155 Seattle, WA. 98195-7155 Thanks much, Carolyn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:46:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Windows 95 screen display font problem Windows Gurus: I just did adjustments to my Windows 95 Control panel display (changed the fonts to Custom size 150% so I could see things better). Well, now I cannot get to the Apply buttons on some of the screens, for example, to change the screen saver to a different frequency, etc. I cannot change the screen size to get down there to the Apply button or anything. The properties boxes cannot be made smaller with the help of the pointer, either. Help!!! WHAT can I do to change back to large font (125%) or even small font when I cannot get at the Apply button to make good the desired changes??? With some other programs, too, I cannot reach the close/maximize buttons! (And I have already tried the manual screen adjustments on the monitor. It doesn't help at all.) I figure I need to get into an .ini file somewhere to make these changes manually as I cannot do it on the screen. Does anyone know what I should do to fix this? BTW, CINDEX is not affected by this, and neither are most of the programs I now have, thank goodness. Just the Control Panel stuff and an old version (for Windows 3.11) of Microsoft Publisher that is loaded. The index file for Windows Help doesn't seem to have anything that will help me, either. I've tried that, too. Any help will be gratefully appreciated! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:29:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin & Jennifer A. Broccoli" Subject: humor in logos Recently I have been trying to decide on a logo to go along with my business name, "Broccoli Indexing". (My last name is Broccoli.) I found a nice clip art image of an open book that I thought about using. However my brother-in-law, who is into marketing and advertising, suggested I use a green sprig of broccoli as a pun on my name. He feels it will capture attention more than a simple open book. I'm interested in knowing what the rest of you think as to publisher's response toward humor such as that. Is it unprofesional and tacky? Kevin A. Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:40:15 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Using Macrex with Quark XPress for Windows In-Reply-To: <199710250543.WAA12048@pacific.net> >>From Christine Headley > >Having created an index with Macrex, I now want to produce it with Quark >XPress on my PC. I cannot persuade the indents to behave as I would >wish. Have you gotten help on this yet? What file format are you printing to--that is, .rtf, word, wordperfect, etc. Each one will yield different results in Quark. I don't know which one will definitely work. Most of my clients who use Quark want a WordPerfect 5.1 file to work with. One client had a heck of time with that format. Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:19:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Windows 95 screen display font problem Cynthia, When a window is visible that is too big to fit on screen and the title bar can't be reached to drag the window do this: 1. Make sure the window has focus by clicking on it somewhere 2. Press - a menu will appear 3. Select "Move" from the menu. 4. Use the arrow keys on the keyboard to move the window. 5. Press enter to stop the move function. I hope this helps, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Bertelsen To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: October 27, 1997 8:50 PM Subject: Windows 95 screen display font problem >Windows Gurus: > >I just did adjustments to my Windows 95 Control panel display (changed the >fonts to Custom size 150% so I could see things better). Well, now I cannot >get to the Apply buttons on some of the screens, for example, to change the >screen saver to a different frequency, etc. I cannot change the screen size >to get down there to the Apply button or anything. The properties boxes >cannot be made smaller with the help of the pointer, either. Help!!! WHAT >can I do to change back to large font (125%) or even small font when I >cannot get at the Apply button to make good the desired changes??? With >some other programs, too, I cannot reach the close/maximize buttons! (And I >have already tried the manual screen adjustments on the monitor. It doesn't >help at all.) I figure I need to get into an .ini file somewhere to make >these changes manually as I cannot do it on the screen. Does anyone know >what I should do to fix this? > >BTW, CINDEX is not affected by this, and neither are most of the programs I >now have, thank goodness. Just the Control Panel stuff and an old version >(for Windows 3.11) of Microsoft Publisher that is loaded. > >The index file for Windows Help doesn't seem to have anything that will help >me, either. I've tried that, too. > >Any help will be gratefully appreciated! > >***************************************** > >Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >cbertel@usit.net >Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > >***************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:03:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "D. C. Schroeder" Subject: Re: humor in logos Kevin, Your brother-in-law is right, your logo should be memorable. Why not use the open book and place the broccoli on one page with its botanical name. There are ways to be humorous without being tacky. Dawn Schroeder The Perfect Page ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: humor in logos I personally don't see anything wrong with using a sprig of broccoli. After all, you've been blessed with that name. And open books clipart is used and used and used. I don't think the broccoli is offensively funny. It's more just "catchy." If you wanted, you could superimpose the broccoli on the book, as if it were a fountain pen or something. Or, you could use a computer and put the sprig of broccoli in the screen. You don't have to limit yourself to just one image. That way, you could use the broccoli in a way that you feel more comfortable. I'm still trying to figure out what to do with Frank Words. And I'm envious that you have something so fun to work with. Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 04:41:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sindexer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: humor in logos No, I think it is clever. Maybe you could combine it with some literary item, such as a book. My initial feeling is that it will make you easier to remember. Sally ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:07:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: humor in logos Kevin A. Broccoli writes: Recently I have been trying to decide on a logo to go along with my business name, "Broccoli Indexing". (My last name is Broccoli.) I found a nice clip art image of an open book that I thought about using. However my brother-in-law, who is into marketing and advertising, suggested I use a green sprig of broccoli as a pun on my name. He feels it will capture attention more than a simple open book. I'm interested in knowing what the rest of you think as to publisher's response toward humor such as that. Is it unprofesional and tacky? I think it's funny and memorable. I would say that a potential client would think that anyone who is = that relaxed about jokes relating to his name must be easy to work with. You're lucky to have an eye- catching name - make the most of it. Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com *************************************************************= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:37:59 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Zip disks for archiving Does anyone have any information about the relative durability and reliability of Zip disks versus ordinary 31/2 inch floppies for long-term archiving of data - eg old index files? My own experience with 31/2 inch floppies is that some become unreadable especially as they get older, although fortunately I haven't yet lost anything very important. Zip disks have such a high capacity that I could probably get all my archived indexes onto one - but if that failed it could be catastrophic... Liza Weinkove e-mail: liza.weinkove@zen.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:53:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Windows 95 screen display font problem Thanks, Kamm, for reminding me of this one, too. It worked on the Microsoft Publisher problem that I had. This is a good manuever for traditional Windows boxes, but the thing that really saved my skin with my problem with the Control Panel settings was a suggestion that I press the Tab key when I was looking at those huge panels for the Control Panel Display and when I sensed that the Tab was on the Apply button, and after making my changes, that I press "Enter." Voila, I now am back to the small fonts option for screen display and will stay that way. Thanks to everyone who made suggestions. It is great to know that you are indeed the Collective Wisdom! At 10:19 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Kamm Y. Schreiner wrote: >Cynthia, > >When a window is visible that is too big to fit on screen and the title bar >can't be reached to drag the window do this: > >1. Make sure the window has focus by clicking on it somewhere >2. Press - a menu will appear >3. Select "Move" from the menu. >4. Use the arrow keys on the keyboard to move the window. >5. Press enter to stop the move function. > >I hope this helps, > >Kamm Schreiner >President > >SKY Software >4675 York Rd #1 >Manchester, MD 21102 > >email: kamm@sky-software.com >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >-----Original Message----- >From: Cynthia Bertelsen >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: October 27, 1997 8:50 PM >Subject: Windows 95 screen display font problem > > >>Windows Gurus: >> >>I just did adjustments to my Windows 95 Control panel display (changed the >>fonts to Custom size 150% so I could see things better). Well, now I >cannot >>get to the Apply buttons on some of the screens, for example, to change the >>screen saver to a different frequency, etc. I cannot change the screen >size >>to get down there to the Apply button or anything. The properties boxes >>cannot be made smaller with the help of the pointer, either. Help!!! WHAT >>can I do to change back to large font (125%) or even small font when I >>cannot get at the Apply button to make good the desired changes??? With >>some other programs, too, I cannot reach the close/maximize buttons! (And I >>have already tried the manual screen adjustments on the monitor. It doesn't >>help at all.) I figure I need to get into an .ini file somewhere to make >>these changes manually as I cannot do it on the screen. Does anyone know >>what I should do to fix this? >> >>BTW, CINDEX is not affected by this, and neither are most of the programs I >>now have, thank goodness. Just the Control Panel stuff and an old version >>(for Windows 3.11) of Microsoft Publisher that is loaded. >> >>The index file for Windows Help doesn't seem to have anything that will >help >>me, either. I've tried that, too. >> >>Any help will be gratefully appreciated! >> >>***************************************** >> >>Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer >>cbertel@usit.net >>Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html >> >>***************************************** >> > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:44:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Samples Hello Index-l: I am in the process of trying to produce some samples. I have a few good ideas to work with, but they aren't gelling yet. One question: I want to do a sample for a textbook. The textbooks I have at my disposal right now are loooooong college texts. Do you think it would be ok to do a sample that covers a few chapters? Or should I go ahead and index the whole thing? Or...should I try a high school text which should be shorter? I'm not trying to avoid the work, you see, but...I'd like to get some samples out there pretty quickly. TIA, Chris Carr CccJlc@aol.com P.S. We had a fun chat on AOL last night! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:40:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: humor in logos Leslie, Surely someone's suggested a graphic slightly curved frankfurter as the background for super-imposed letters spelling Frank Words? Diane in Kazoo (Kazoos are considered funny too, but don't look for one on my logo.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:54:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Wright Subject: Re: Windows 95 screen display font problem -Reply One other possible solution that you may have tried: Hiding the Task Bar (Start, Settings, Taskbar, Autohide). The same thing happened to me once, and when I got rid of the Task bar, the buttons were underneath. Dragging it to the top or side might help, too. I assume, however, that these buttons were totally off the screen? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: humor in logos Kevin, I don't think I want to get into the middle of a debate about which logo is better. However, I would like to throw out a little bit of what is hindsight knowledge. What ever you decide on, I would try to keep it simple. This is something that you are hopefully going to have to use for a long time to come. If you plan to use your logo on everything related to your company, I think you will find it saves you a lot of time and hassle to have a simple logo. A logo does not have to be complicated to be good, unique or "catchy". I am currently thinking about redesigning my company logo for this very reason. It will be a tough pill to swallow since I have used it for 10 years and it is already a registered trademark of my company. Finally, I would take a look at the logo's of "successful" companies and try to determine what you like about those logos. Then try to design your logo using some of the attributes that you like about their logos. Just my two cents. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner President SKY Software 4675 York Rd #1 Manchester, MD 21102 email: kamm@sky-software.com --------------------------------------------------------------------