From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 8-JAN-1998 15:23:21.10 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9712E" Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:57:57 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9712E" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:04:51 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: ISO 999 >Which of the following does "Smith, Elder & Co." mean? >a. A company whose principals are [John] Smith and [Alicia] Elder. >b. A company whose only principal is Elder Smith. Sonsie Conroy surmises correctly. "Smith" and "Elder" are indeed two surnames. The original Smith was one who went into partnership with Alexander Elder in 1816. I don't know the original Smith's full name, but his son George Murray Smith (1824-1901) became sole head of the firm in 1846 and was an enormously energetic and influential publisher, who signed up such famous authors as Thackeray, Charlotte Bronte, and Ruskin. There are entries about him in both the Oxford Companion to English Literature and the Wordsworth Companion to Literature in English. The firm had earlier published much New Zealand Company colonization propaganda, which is why its name crops up in an index I have recently done. I'd still be very interested in getting answers to my original query about ISO 999, repeated below. (See my original post for more detail.) ---- May I ask you all where in the following sequence a heading for "Smith, Elder and Co." should be filed according to the recommendations of ISO 999: Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith, Joan Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy Should it be between Anna and Elizabeth M. (which is where my HyperIndex software puts it), or at the end, after S. Percy? From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 21:15:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: ISO 999 At 07:16 AM 12/20/97 +1300, Simon Cauchi wrote: >May I ask you where in the following sequence a heading for "Smith, Elder >and Co." should be filed according to the recommendations of ISO 999: > >Smith, Ailsa >Smith, Anna >Smith, Elizabeth M. >Smith, Joan >Smith, Miriam >Smith, S. Percy > >Should it be between Anna and Elizabeth M. (which is where my HyperIndex >software puts it), or at the end, after S. Percy? > >I see that Wellisch, 2nd edn, under "Homographs", recommends that strict >alphabetical order should be followed except in very long and complex >indexes, where a classified arrangement may be necessary. Mulvany, p. 123, >also recommends alphabetical order. But according to Pat F. Booth's article >in the April 1997 Indexer, the sequence recommended in ISO 999 is "that the >term (with or without subheadings) comes first, followed by the term with >qualifier, and finally the term as the first element of a longer heading" >-- which I interpret to mean that "Smith, Elder & Co" would come at the end >of the sequence. > >Have I understood the matter correctly? (I haven't yet seen ISO 999, but am >relying entirely on the passage I have quoted from Pat Booth's article.) > Simon: I haven't seen ISO 999 either -- and probably won't as copies are very expensive -- but I can say that I interpret Pat Booth's statement of the ISO 999 filing recommendations to mean that "Smith, Elder & Co." should be placed between "Smith, Anna" and "Smith, Elizabeth M." (as Wellisch, Mulvany, and HyperIndex would have it) rather than at the end of the sequence of personal names. As you suggest, "Smith" in "Smith, Elder & Co." surely is the first element of a longer heading, but, contrary to what you seem to suggest, this "Smith" is not different in this regard from the other "Smiths" in the other headings: although they resemble main headings with single subheadings they are treated as the first elements of longer main headings. Thus all these headings fall into the same ISO 999 category, as described by Pat Booth, and so look to me like they should be filed together. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 21:15:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: ISO 999 At 05:42 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Sonsie wrote: >At 08:12 PM 12/27/1997 EST, WordenDex wrote: > >>Which of the following does "Smith, Elder & Co." mean? >>a. A company whose principals are [John] Smith and [Alicia] Elder. >>b. A company whose only principal is Elder Smith. > >Obviously, you can't be certain about this without actually knowing the >company history, but 9 times out of ten (or maybe 95 out of 100) it is John >Smith and Alicia Elder. > > =Sonsie= Here's another case in which the use of the serial comma after the penultimate article of the series would clarify the meaning of the phrase. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:15:56 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: ISO 999 I'm sure Michael Brackney's interpretation is quite right. But, in that case, can either he or anyone else explain what is meant by the distinctions between (in Pat Booth's words) (1) "the term (with or without subheadings)", (2) "the term with qualifier", and (3) "the term as the first element of a longer heading"? Can examples be given of each so that we can learn to discriminate between the three categories? I got so frustrated about this that I asked Standards NZ to supply me with a copy of ISO 999. They wanted payment in advance of $NZ180 -- for a document of less that 50 pages! I am told by someone who used to work for an institution concerned with the building industry that standards were one of the first things to be privatized in NZ, and it has been a disaster. Formerly builders, tradesmen, etc., would conscientiously acquire the newly published standards and make sure their work conformed to them, but now they don't because the prices are simply ridiculous. Michael Brackney wrote: >I haven't seen ISO 999 either -- and probably won't as copies are very >expensive -- but I can say that I interpret Pat Booth's statement of the ISO >999 filing recommendations to mean that "Smith, Elder & Co." should be >placed between "Smith, Anna" and "Smith, Elizabeth M." (as Wellisch, >Mulvany, and HyperIndex would have it) rather than at the end of the >sequence of personal names. > >As you suggest, "Smith" in "Smith, Elder & Co." surely is the first element >of a longer heading, but, contrary to what you seem to suggest, this "Smith" >is not different in this regard from the other "Smiths" in the other >headings: although they resemble main headings with single subheadings they >are treated as the first elements of longer main headings. Thus all these >headings fall into the same ISO 999 category, as described by Pat Booth, and >so look to me like they should be filed together. From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Prout Subject: Re: jokes in indexes I haven't heard of the joke tradition before, nor have I read many funny or ironic index entries. Maybe this tradition is more urban folklore, or started when an indexer needed a quick justification? The examples given so far, the infamous Tuskegee Study and what us post-Freudians see as erotic religious poetry, strike me as being potentially offensive to many of the books' readers. Humor is hard to pull off because it's often unintentional, cliquish, obscure and/or missed. I'm in favor of it, I guess; just haven't seen it work. Certainly agree that the "good parts" should be throughout the index; I wouldn't use a main entry under G, though. Dave Prout ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:27:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: ISO 999 At 06:04 PM 12/29/97 +1300, you wrote: >>Which of the following does "Smith, Elder & Co." mean? >>a. A company whose principals are [John] Smith and [Alicia] Elder. >>b. A company whose only principal is Elder Smith. > >Sonsie Conroy surmises correctly. "Smith" and "Elder" are indeed two >surnames. The original Smith was one who went into partnership with >Alexander Elder in 1816. I don't know the original Smith's full name, but >his son George Murray Smith (1824-1901) became sole head of the firm in >1846 and was an enormously energetic and influential publisher, who signed >up such famous authors as Thackeray, Charlotte Bronte, and Ruskin... Happy Holidays All, I would recommend that anyone who's indexing a company/corporate name and isn't sure of the meaning, order, or importance of the elements (is A G Edwards & Sons indexed under A or E?; is the Anheuser in Anheuser Busch a founder's first or surname?, etc.), use one of the standard business directories such as "Standard & Poor's Register of Corporations", "Directory of Corporate Affiliations", "Ward's", "Moody's Index", or a local city business directory such as "Sorkin's..." to fact check. These are expensive, but most medium-to-large public and academic libraries subscribe to these and most will look up a company name or two for you over the phone. If you have good Web access, a site such as Hoover's [ http://www.hoovers.com I think...] can also give you the preferred form for thousands of corporate names. If the company is too small to show up in one of these print or electronic directories, a website like www.switchboard.com may be able to help. Anne Anne Cleester Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis Thomas Jefferson Library Reference sactayl@umslvma.umsl.edu http://www.umsl.edu/~ataylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:33:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: AOL Chat reminder Don't forget tonight's AOL chat Monday, 8:30 Central Time. If you need the link e-mail me. Susan Wilkerson Bookindexr@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:44:42 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Mother lode of databases I've have a fair number of responses to my database indexing response. So, I thought I'd post the relevant archive date here (6-15 June 97) as well as the link I mentioned. This was from a post by another databaser. http://www.krinfo.com/dialog/databases/netscape1.1/bls.html This is a Knight-Ridder site, which contains over 450 Dialog databases. Good luck, and good hunting. If for some reason the link doesn't work, type www.dialog.com/info/home into your browser and follow the product links. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:52:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Author index for journal This may not apply to your question but in many databases when an article starts on page 24 and finishes up on page 23, the format for the pages would be 24, 23 as the first page of the article comes first. With your author question you might go 8,7 PS many people reading medical journals are use to letters going over 2 pages with the authors coming at the end so 7-8 would probably not be confusing. Roberta Horowitz At 02:48 PM 12/20/97 -0800, you wrote: >I prepare subject and author indexes for several medical journals. The >page references in these indexes generally refer to just the first page >of an article (7 and not 7-14 for example). Many of these journals also >have letters to the editor which are also indexed. When a letter runs >from page 7 to page 8 the names of the authors do not appear until page >8. > >My question (finally) is would people index the author on page 7 or 8? > >I was curious because I recently have an encounter with a new editor who >informed me that I had the wrong page number for the letter authors. I >will, of course, adapt to the style of this editor, but wondered if >people preferred the page reference to lead you to the beginning or the >end of the letter. > >Thanks. Linda Hallinger > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:48:09 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bookindexr Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: AOL Chat..Tojan Horse Alert Scratch tonight's AOL chat, for me that is, you can all carry on with out me. I have just found a Trojan horse on my computer and even though I have cleaned it it must have damaged some files because I still can't make ICQ work. So looks like I will have to back up all my customer's files and format the hard drive and reinstall programs and waste my whole New Holidays to say the least I will be out of touch for a while. I don't know how long I have had it the virus program I had was outdated. I only remember sending one person a file that's the only way you can get it but if you are on AOL you may want to check for the file it's called: FJVXJNXY.exe the name of the trojan is called AOLPSTrojan.cj I found it in the Windows directory it had somehow added itself to my win.ini and booted itself up every time I turn the computer on. Hope no one else has it. I had notice files disappearing and some ending up in other programs but once I reinstalled the program they did fine. The only real problem I have had is the ICQ program chat room not working right. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:25:42 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: QUERY - eeeeuuu and a question or two At 11:32 AM 12/17/97 -0800, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > >Michael, > >I haven't indexed any books of the Bible (or religious works) of any sort, >but I have to differ a bit with the wording of your suggestion "John >(Gospel of)". (Did lack of expertise in an area ever stop me from putting >my foot in it? Nahhh. ;-D) This gets a bit tricky because what I'm about to >say sounds like a religious objection, which it isn't, but is based on the >full title of the book. There may be slight variations between versions of >the Bible, but it's probably on the order of "The Holy Gospel of Jesus >Christ According to St. John" (as in the version I have here but without >the "St."). If the version discussed in Martha's book uses a title that >refers to the book as being the Gospel of Christ as my version does, it >would be inaccurate to use "John (Gospel of)", which implies that it's >John's Gospel. I don't think that the author wants to imply that unless >that is indeed the stance taken in the text. ;-D I think that "John, Gospel >According to" is much safer, even though it is longer. > >Lynn Then again, at 04:43 PM 12/27/97 -0800, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > >Ironic, isn't it, that this is the Gospel that begins with "In the >beginning was the Word." And, verily I say unto you, a debate swept across >the land on how it should be indexed. ;-D > >At 10:20 AM 12/18/97 -0800, Lindsay wrote: >>. . . >>The indexer might sensibly choose to index what the author calls "The Holy >>Gospel According to St. John" as "St. John, Gospel". . . > >It isn't "sensible" to chose phrasing that presents the author as taking a >very unusual doctrinal stance unless he or she explicitly adopted that >stance. It would be doing the author a disservice. Unfortunately, using >"of" (which is also implied in "St. John, Gospel") versus "according to" >does just that. I wholeheartedly agree with you about following the >author's preference. This includes not inadvertantly countering it by using >the wrong preposition just to save space. (I doubt that "according to" >would wrap anyway in a two-column index.) This all may sound like >nitpicking but it becomes extremely important when a mere choice of >preposition has profound religious implications and many people care about >those issues. You should've heard my sister on why it's "according to" and >not "of". ;-D . . . > >> >>It is standard verbal "shorthand" to say John's Gospel or Gospel of John -- >>meaning the gospel John wrote about Jesus -- so "John, Gospel of" would not >>be incorrect. > >I don't believe that what is acceptable verbally is necessarily acceptable >when written. Standards are far looser for speech. "John, Gospel of" (or >with the "of" implied) is very incorrect because of its religious >implications unless the author explicitly referred to it as such. > >Lynn Dear Lynn: "Did lack of expertise in an area ever stop me from putting my foot in it?" you ask. "Nahhh!" (exclamation mark added), you say. Speaking of religion, or, I should say, of _spirit_, what a fine utterance: "Nahhh!" As ever, Lynn, I appreciate your "putting it out there". I acknowledge immediately that "John, Gospel According to" is doctrinally accurate insofar as "Gospel" is understood to mean the "gospel": the good news, the glad tidings, the teaching or teachings, of Jesus. It's not true, however, that "gospel" in this context is restricted to this meaning. It also refers to the story of the life and teaching of Jesus; and "Gospel" (with an uppercase "G"), as distinguished from "gospel" as capitalized in the title of the book, is a term commonly used to refer, in writing as well as speaking, to one of the "Gospels", as in "the Gospel of John" or "the Fourth Gospel" (CMS14 7.87). Thus the Gospel of John indeed is "John's Gospel", it's not incorrect to index it as "John, Gospel of", and to do so would not present the author as taking a stance against the common understanding that the gospel in this context is the gospel of Jesus. Nevertheless, it has become clear that "John, Gospel of" can be misunderstood as an incorrect and even misleading form of the title "John, Gospel According to". I don't know how far to go in anticipating and guarding against such a misunderstanding -- I think most of the responsibility in this case lies with the reader -- but "John (Gospel of)" does seem clearer and less ambiguous than "John, Gospel of" in that nothing more than "John" is suggested as the title. Objectively speaking, then, how does "John (Gospel of)" compare with "John, Gospel According to"? I like "John (Gospel of)" primarily because it represents the book simply as the Gospel named "John", reflecting common usage and the common practice of referring to all the books of the Bible by their abbreviations. I like it too because it would sort ahead of inverted names such as "John, Charles" and any other inverted (or not inverted) multiple-word terms beginning with "John". I also like "John, Gospel According to" as a more complete version of the title, though without italics it's not as easy to see as a title in an index as a secular book title would be. The bottom line, of course, as Lindsay and you have said, is that any clear preference of the author should hold sway; so if he or she prefers "The Gospel According to John", let the heading read "John, Gospel According to", Amen! Nahhh!? Yahhh!? Regards, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:34:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexserv Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: jokes in indexes Has anyone ever read Al Franken's book "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot"? The entire index, written by Franken, is a joke. All of the entries refer to how large a person Limbaugh is, with entries like "Zepplins;Limbaugh's size compared to" and "Italian restaurants;Limbaugh's obsession with". Very funny. I can't seem to find the time to sit and think about funny entries, either. Once in a while, a very obvious joke appears, or a standard entry that just reads funny. Computer book indexes are a good place to add humorous entries, as they are easier to come up with. A good friend of mine once indexed "KLINK method. See also Klemperer, Werner", which I thought was beautiful. Let's have more Hogan's Heroes entries! :-D I want to believe that jokes in indexes is a tradition, simply because of a love for comedy, but as far as my making it a personal tradition, I dunno. Maybe when I have a month to index a title, instead of three days... Tim Griffin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:43:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Please delete me, let me go... Could someone please manually delete me from the list (I'm moving)? I've tried following the instructions for sign-off but my emails keep bouncing back. Thank you, julie knoeller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:53:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: jokes in indexes At 03:34 PM 12/29/97 EST, you wrote: > >Computer book indexes are a good place to add humorous entries, >as they are easier to come up with. A good friend of mine once indexed "KLINK >method. See also Klemperer, Werner", which I thought was beautiful. Let's have >more Hogan's Heroes entries! :-D Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. When a computer user turns to the index, he is often under pressure to complete some task. Computer indexes are notorious for making things hard to find. If I turn to the index, can't find the information I need, but *do* find some attempt at humor, my reaction will be "Great! You didn't have time to answer my question but you had time to make jokes." If your index is absolutely flawless, then indulge in humor. But not until. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:36:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: jokes in indexes > I can't seem to find the time to sit and think about funny entries, either. > Once in a while, a very obvious joke appears, or a standard entry that just > reads funny. Computer book indexes are a good place to add humorous entries, > as they are easier to come up with. A good friend of mine once indexed "KLINK > method. See also Klemperer, Werner", which I thought was beautiful. Let's have > more Hogan's Heroes entries! :-D > > I want to believe that jokes in indexes is a tradition, simply because of a > love for comedy, but as far as my making it a personal tradition, I dunno. > Maybe when I have a month to index a title, instead of three days... The last time this subject came up, there were a few INDEX-L subscribers who were publishers (rather than indexers themselves) and they were absolutely horrified to learn that some indexers might put joke entries in books. These publishers (that is, our clients or potential clients) did not find this practice even a little bit funny. So, to any new indexers out there... don't try this at home! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 17:06:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: jokes in indexes Re Jokes in Indexes Maybe I'm humorously impaired ........ but I find the idea of doing this absolutely unprofessional. I really am not a person without humor. However, everything has its place, and to me, an index by a freelancer isn't the place for it. Perhaps if a book has a humorous angle to it and it is requested, or the author writes the index and is aware of the joke and wants it there, or some oddball situation like that. But if I'm paid for an index by a publisher, I want to turn in a professional product that is high quality and not indulge in hiding jokes in it. I think that's awful! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:15:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: jokes in indexes In-Reply-To: <199712272251.PAA10978@Rt66.com> I have to admit it never even occured to me to put jokes in my indexes until the previous thread on this topic. But since then, I have occaisionally included what might be seen as humorous entries (always alerting the editors to their presence), in the name of providing access to the information in the book... ;D For instance, a book on building international Web sites had a cautionary note on the pitfalls of translation, which I duly indexed in the appropriate places. But the anecdote that accompanied the note was too good to pass up: When Coca-cola was first introduced in China, the characters used to translate the name actually read "bite the wax tadpole." So of course, I included a "tadpoles, wax" entry. (And I let the editor know that neither the index nor my feelings would be hurt if she chose not to include it in the final index. As far as I know, they left the entry alone.) As far as jokes in computer book indexes go, there's only one index I have a vivid memory of using, years before I discovered that indexing was actually a thing people did. I had just been introduced to the concept of recursion, and was frantically trying to make sense of it (and if you haven't programmed, this may not make much sense to you, either). One of my bibles at the time was "The C Programming Language" by Kernighan & Ritchie, so I studied all the leads in the index under "recursion"....up to the last page number, which referred , recursively, to the page that held the index entry for "recursion"! I've always assumed that the authors produced that particular index. Now I'm curious -- was it one of you? ;D I guess I approach this on a case-by-case basis. If the tone of the text is light, and there are topics that lend themselves to a touch of humor, I don't mind loosening up a bit. On the other hand, many technical books are very strictly oriented to the business of getting a job accomplished, and there often isn't any room for humor (though maybe the world would be a better place if there were!) I guess, in the long run, that I agree with Dick. The most important thing is making sure that the information in the book is accessible to the user. But if you can do that *and* lighten someone's day a little...well, why not? Caroline ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:52:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lindsay Gower Subject: Re: jokes in indexes In-Reply-To: <199712292223.OAA15420@firewall.persistence.com> At 03:15 PM 12/29/97 -0700, Caroline wrote: >I have to admit it never even occured to me to put jokes in my indexes >until the previous thread on this topic. But since then, I have >occaisionally included what might be seen as humorous entries (always >alerting the editors to their presence), in the name of providing access to >the information in the book... ;D > To my mind, the appropriateness of jokes in indexes depends on whether you are *sharing* a joke with the reader, or laughing *at* the reader who is too dumb to get your joke. It seems condescension of the worst sort to do the latter. But there's no harm doing the former, as Caroline says "when the tone is light and topics lend themselves to humor." 2 cents, maybe 2.5...do I hear 3? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Lindsay Gower lindsay@persistence.com Technical Writer (650)372-3606 Persistence Software San Mateo, CA www.persistence.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:24:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: jokes in indexes At 03:15 PM 12/29/97 -0700, you wrote: >For instance, a book on building international Web sites had a cautionary >note on the pitfalls of translation, which I duly indexed in the >appropriate places. But the anecdote that accompanied the note was too >good to pass up: When Coca-cola was first introduced in China, the >characters used to translate the name actually read "bite the wax tadpole." > So of course, I included a "tadpoles, wax" entry. I consider that a useful index entry that is only incidentally humorous. I often find off-the-wall things that in and of themselves are relatively trivial, but stand out from their surroundings such that I can easily envision someone who has read the material going back to find something that has stuck with them. In this case, I might even have indexed: tadpole, biting the waxed biting the waxed tadpole This assumes, of course, that I have also included: Coca Cola, Chinese mistranslation Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:11:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: ISO 999 At 09:15 PM 12/29/97 +1300, Simon Cauchi wrote: >I'm sure Michael Brackney's interpretation is quite right. But, in that >case, can either he or anyone else explain what is meant by the >distinctions between (in Pat Booth's words) (1) "the term (with or without >subheadings)", (2) "the term with qualifier", and (3) "the term as the >first element of a longer heading"? Can examples be given of each so that >we can learn to discriminate between the three categories? Simon et al.: Here is a list of terms (taken from my article on sorting in the Nov/Dec 1995 issue of _Key Words_) that exemplify the three categories of headings described by Pat Booth: 1. new acceptance of as novel vs. old 2. New (CA) NEW (National Energy Watch) NEW (New England Whalers) NEW (Newcor, Inc.) New (WA) 3. New Brunswick (Canada) new criticism New England new moon New Year's Day Adding headings with leading homographs delimited by commas to category #3 raises the important question of whether to ignore or sort the commas. According to Pat Booth in her article in the April 1997 Indexer, ISO 999 says that "punctuation signs within the headings are given filing values by the indexer within the context of a particular index", and I must say that it always seems very helpful to me to do so -- and that it's my impression that this is very helpful for most of us. Here are a couple of examples of ignoring and sorting commas following leading homographs: 3. (Commas Ignored in Filing) New, Allie New Brunswick (Canada) new criticism New England New, Michael new moon _New, Used, or Rebuilt? Buying Another Engine_ (Tappit) New Year's Day New, Zack 3. (Commas Sorted as Spaces) New, Allie New, Michael _New, Used, or Rebuilt? Buying Another Engine_ (Tappit) New, Zack New Brunswick (Canada) new criticism New England new moon New Year's Day And here are two more examples using your list with three additional non-comma-delimited headings: 3. (Commas Ignored in Filing) Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith College Smith, Elder & Co. Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith Industries Smith, Joan Smith Meadows Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy 3. (Commas Sorted as Spaces) Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith, Elder & Co. Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith, Joan Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy Smith College Smith Industries Smith Meadows My sense of this is that most of us scan words and even phrases as opposed to individual letters, and that sorting the commas helps us to do this: do any of you fellow ellers have any gut reactions as to whether this is true for you? Yours, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916 272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Loraine F. Sweetland" Subject: Re: Author index for journal Yes, I still have it. It is located in Laurel, MD. Laurel is between Baltimore, MD and Wash. D.C. Just off I-95. My telephone number is: 301-490-8231. Call if you want more information. No calls Fri. p.m. or Saturday--only Sun.-Thursday. Ronald D. Sweetland 10182 High Ridge Rd. Laurel, MD 20723 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:35:29 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: ISO 999 Many thanks to Michael Brackney for his lucid explanation of the terms used by Pat Booth about ISO 999 sorting. I tried out HyperIndex 6.1 to see how the software would sort the examples given, and got the result I reproduce below. HyperIndex recognizes the three categories of (1) "the term (with or without subheadings)", (2) "the term with qualifier", and (3) "the term as the first element of a longer heading", and arranges them in the prescribed order. It ignores commas in sorting the third category. I find this result perfectly satisfactory, and am happy to accept it not only for that reason but also because interfering with it manually would be to run the risk of introducing sorting errors. By the same logic, if the software had sorted commas as spaces in the third category, I would have been happy to accept that too -- but I don't know of anyone else who recommends doing so. (Needless to say, if a client were to insist on having commas sorted as spaces, I would make the manual changes, but I have generally found that clients are happy to accept my recommendations about all these sorting and formatting decisions.) new acceptance of as novel vs. old New (CA) NEW (National Energy Watch) NEW (New England Whalers) NEW (Newcor, Inc.) New (WA) New, Allie New Brunswick (Canada) new criticism New England New, Michael new moon _New, Used, or Rebuilt? Buying Another Engine_ (Tappit) New Year's Day New, Zack Smith, Ailsa Smith, Anna Smith College Smith, Elder & Co. Smith, Elizabeth M. Smith Industries Smith, Joan Smith Meadows Smith, Miriam Smith, S. Percy Michael Brackney wrote (inter alia): >Adding headings with leading homographs delimited by commas to category #3 >raises the important question of whether to ignore or sort the commas. >According to Pat Booth in her article in the April 1997 Indexer, ISO 999 >says that "punctuation signs within the headings are given filing values by >the indexer within the context of a particular index", and I must say that >it always seems very helpful to me to do so -- and that it's my impression >that this is very helpful for most of us. Here are a couple of examples of >ignoring and sorting commas following leading homographs: > > >My sense of this is that most of us scan words and even phrases as opposed >to individual letters, and that sorting the commas helps us to do this: do >any of you fellow ellers have any gut reactions as to whether this is true >for you? (I notice that Michael has modified his thinking somewhat since writing his interesting letter to the Indexer, Vol. 20, No. 2, October 1996, pp. 87-88 -- where his name, by the way, appears very sensibly on p. 87 at the head of the letter. His post admirably clarifies the editor's rather too brief explanation of the ISO 999 terminology on p. 88.) From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 06:41:17 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paper Pushers Subject: Triplicate e-mailings Hello Indexians, Is anyone else receiving multiple copies of Index-L mailings? I assumed my server was flipping out today, but have noticed it's only with Index-L messages. Sometimes I get three identical messages, together or over a space of time, but all with the same date/time stamp. Thanks, Suds ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:13:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Carr Subject: jokes in indexes 12-30-97 I'm afraid I agree with Janet Perlman on this one. Putting jokes in indexes seems unprofessional to me also and I would never do it except at the request of the author in a humerous document where the reader might expect such a thing to occur. Surely there are countless other ways to get kicks out of life besides this. Becky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:29:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: joyce greene Subject: Ontology Would anyone know where one could study/earn a degree in ontology? This field was mentioned in a recent job posting on the list and I had never heard of it before. Joyce Greene ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:43:47 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laura R Rustin Subject: Re: jokes in indexes In-Reply-To: <199712301819.MAA12529@freebird.ghofn.org> I have never used any jokes in any indexes I have prepared, for the reasons so clearly outlines by Janet and others. I have recently completed a 54 page index (actually 3 indexes..subject, modern author, and ancient and classical authors) for my brother's most recent scholarly publication. After I was finished, I told him that my middle of the night fantasy had been "sibling devotion, selfless act of, 1-500". He laughed, I laughed, and I realized that the only person I really wanted to see that entry had seen it. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:47:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Topher Cooper Subject: Re: Ontology Ontology is a branch of philosophy -- the area concerned with just what it means for something to "be" (e.g., questions like "What is reality?"). One would therefore study (and get a degree in) philosophy, with, perhaps, a thesis dealing more or less with ontological issues. Topher Cooper ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:51:11 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Ontology is on=95tol=95o=95gy 1. the branch of metaphysics that studies the nature = of existence or being as such. 2. (loosely) metaphysics.=20 For 50 bonus points, why do they want a philosopher? Does this mean that theoretical knowledge of how to access information is as good as actually being able to find something? snipped from SNAP! job posting: > some sort of advanced degree in Information, Library Science or=20 > Ontology. Someone who worked as a corporate librarian or municipal=20 > librarian might be a good choice, as well as somebody who was going to=20 > graduate school in ontology. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:28:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dave Prout Subject: Please Delete Me Have tried four times to signoff index-l according to the instructions at ASI's webpage and have received four contradictory error messages. What's the secret and/or can the moderator do this? Thanx. Dave Prout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:06:02 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: jokes in indexes In-Reply-To: <199712310546.XAA15905@mixcom.mixcom.com> Like Janet and others, whatever funny entries I think of never make it into my indexes. Last month I indexed a book that had a point to make but the absolute lousiest arguments to support it. Here's what my hypothetical funny entries looked like: arguments adequate, 23 inadequate, 1-22, 24-300 To me, inserting jokes into indexes seems unprofessional except under the rare conditions of a book of humor for which the author has requested a funny index. Even in a book that has a light subject, I could never be sure there wouldn't be some reader who wasn't offended rather than amused, because humor (especially in print) is such a tricky thing. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brayton, Colin (IBK-NY)" Subject: Re: Please Delete Me Believe me, I would if I could! You are sending your command to the mailing list address. You need to send it to the LISTPROC, LISTSERV or MAJORDOMO address (I forget which for this list). Make any sense? > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Prout [SMTP:prout@TOGETHER.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 9:29 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Please Delete Me > > Have tried four times to signoff index-l according to the instructions > at > ASI's webpage and have received four contradictory error messages. > What's > the secret and/or can the moderator do this? Thanx. > > Dave Prout ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:08:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was lorna@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: "Lorna M. Breiter" Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Re: index-l has returned Charlotte Skuster wrote: > > Hi all, > > Hope you enjoyed the holidays. I was out of town when the messages > stopped and apologize for inconvenience caused...especially those who > were hoping for some assistance with an immediate problem. Also, > apologies for the recent sudden influx of messages. > > I do not know why the list hung up this time. We were not out of disk > space. At any rate, we are back in business...keep the messages coming. > > Charlotte > Index-l moderator Charlotte, I am trying to sign off index-l while I go on vacation. I got the message that I am not subscribed under the address my message came from. My colleague (who knows more about this than I do) says the only way to do it is to ask you directly to sign me off because we have multiple servers and that creates the problem. At any rate, could you sign me off. My address is: lorna.breiter@revisor.leg.state.mn.us (I chose to respond to your message of the other day, thinking that I would be the best way to be sure you get this.) Thanks very much. Lorna Breiter -- Lorna M. Breiter Assistant Deputy Revisor of Statutes (612) 296-2778 (612) 296-0569 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:36:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Copyediting Fees Help! It's been a couple of years since I've done straight editing, and I've been asked to bid on a job. It's about 1000 pages, a fourth edition, with few changes except for one new chapter. It doesn't sound like particularly intensive editing, though they want typemarking included. For those of you who also copyedit, could you reply privately and give me a clue as to the current going rate for a job like this? I'd greatly appreciate hearing from you ASAP. Thanks! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:22:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Self-Employment vs Employment Self-employment vs. employment...for some of us, it's less a question of which we prefer, and more a question of what is available. I became unemployed in January, after the school where I taught slowly self-destructed (financial mismanagement, denial and secrecy surrounding same, until it became impossible for the school to continue -- let alone the unpaid and exhausted teachers. But that's another story.) Since I live in a more-or-less rural area, employment opportunities are limited. There is high competition for the secretarial jobs I would have qualified for at the nearby naval R&D base, and hiring favors naval spouses (which I am not.) Most other options would have me commuting to the nearest city for jobs which would have barely paid for my clothing, gas, taxes, and daycare. Self-employment offered me, in these circumstances, the best opportunity to create a career I could both live with and enjoy. That said, I am very lucky that we are able to scrape by on my husband's salary while I get my business off the ground. We've had to go into debt, but not too deeply. Now that I'm starting to put together a client base and get some repeat business, I believe I'll be able to maintain a good part-time income. Since I also have a three-year-old child, part-time is ideal for me at this point; I hope later to work up to full-time. As far as working with small children underfoot goes, I love the flexibility of being home with my daughter part-time. We did realize over the summer that she would have to be in daycare part-time, if I was to have enough time to market and/or index, depending upon whether I had a current project. We are lucky that daycare is not expensive around here (since for many women, it's their full-time job!) Between preschool and daycare, I have about 5 hours a day, 4 days a week. That, plus some of the things Heather mentioned (a supportive spouse who is primary parent at night/on weekends; an indifference to housework and meals, and a child who enjoys playing by herself at times) make freelance indexing possible for me. The downside of self-employment? It takes a long time to get a business off the ground, and there is little income from it while you do. So far, a lot of my assignments have had fairly short deadlines, so there's a lot of night/weekend work. When several of these come along in a row, my daughter gets cranky from lack of Mommy-time. My house is a wreck (but then, it always was!) The upside? I get to do work which challenges my intellect, work I enjoy. I get the fun of constantly learning about new and different subjects. When I'm not in a crunch, I get to spend afternoons playing with my daughter. Introvert that I am, I enjoy working alone. I don't have to commute. No one cares what I wear. My cat doesn't go crazy because he is home alone. And almost anything we want to do to upgrade the computer and office equipment is tax-deductible (or at least justifiable!) All in all, I think the drawbacks are far outweighed by the benefits. If I had the choice to make over again, I'd make the same one! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net