From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Wed Sep 16 15:48:38 1998 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:08:06 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Julius Ariail Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9808A" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:17:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Indexing Workshops All -- fyi ... I will deliver the one-day version of my Indexing Skills Workshop for Technical Communicators to two STC Chapters in California this Fall: - September 19 in Santa Barbara: contact Angela Howard (AMHoward@aol.com) for more information - September 26 in San Diego: contact Sue Heim (sue.heim@msn.com) for more information Happy indexing! .... Lori *********************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, 7308-C East Independence Blvd., #316 Charlotte, NC 28227 / Phone: 704-531-0021 URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 (note: that's a "nineteen" at the end) *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:10:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Indianapolis (chat) In-Reply-To: <199807301555.KAA13945@mailjay.creighton.edu> On Thu, 30 Jul 1998, Lori Lathrop wrote: > All -- fyi ... The ASI Web site now has links to some info on Indianapolis, > the site for the 1999 ASI Annual Conference. *grin* I checked it out; I noticed under the "National Park Service: Indiana parks" link, it says "if you're spending extra time in the area and want to find a quiet place to spend an autumn afternoon...." Since the conference is in June, I can only assume that Indianapolis is so extremely nice that I'll be tempted to stretch my "extra time" into the fall! :) -- Sarah Smith (who is, seriously, looking forward to Indianapolis) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:43:35 -0500 Reply-To: kamiller@nslsilus.ORG Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Miller Subject: Newspaper Indexing and Published Corrections I index our local paper for the public library, and decided to handle the problem of corrections by including it under the heading "Corrections", and also including it under the subject heading used for the original article, but keeping it in it's proper date sequence. Karen Miller Wilmette, IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:36:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Cambodian / and assumed names > >In Cambodian names the family name comes first, so presumably Saloth is the > >family name of Saloth Sar, Pol Pot being his _nom de guerre_. The interesting thing about Cambodian names is that the family name comes first and the forename second, but the individual is customarily referred to by the forename rather than the family name (unless both are used consistently in the text.) Saloth Sar would be known as Sar, Bu Phat as Phat, and so forth. Mulvany suggests it may be helpful to include a cross reference from the forename to the full (uninverted) name: "Phat. See Bu Phat." (Phew, that can add a lot of length to an index very quickly!) Of course, Saloth Sar/Pol Pot brings up another whole can of worms: how do you handle pseudonyms, noms de guerre, etc. Many readers could be expected to know, for instance, that Samuel Clemens and Mark Twain are one and the same, but when the assumed name is far more familiar than the birth name, things get muddier. I'm currently working on a book which deals extensively with Pol Pot, but refers to him exclusively as Saloth Sar for over 130 pages (chronologically speaking, until he actually changed his name.) If I direct readers from "Saloth Sar" to "Pol Pot" it takes care of those readers who already know Pol Pot's birth name. However, I need some way to indicate the birth name to readers who look up "Pol Pot," since if they look in the first 130 pages, they will not find him [by that name.] I'm leaning toward listing him as Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) with multiple subheads and a cross-reference from Saloth Sar. Is there a better way to handle this? I'm also puzzling over how to deal with his name in otherwise unrelated subheads, such as the following: Ieng Sary friendship with Saloth Sar Marxist Circle Saloth Sar's role in It will get rather ponderous to say: Marxist Circle Pol Pot's (Saloth Sar's) role in but I don't know how else to get across to the reader that they aren't going to find anything about Pol Pot there (by that name.) Perhaps in these cases it is alright to use the name Saloth Sar, and leave it at that? It seems inconsistent, though. And of course, in some cases, the subhead will cover the same individual under both names. I don't think I can assume that a reader will know Pol Pot's birth name. The book is for a general as well as a specific audience (and after all, I'm fairly intelligent, and I didn't know it before I started the book!) Anyway, this dilemma is a real puzzler, and I'm open to suggestions. Incidentally, has anyone else noticed how often topics come up for discussion on Index-L while you are working on a similar project/problem, or just before? TIA, Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: job opp for beginners or others I just spoke to a gentleman who has done a 1200 page genealogy and wants it indexed pretty much for free I guess. When I told him my minimum was $3/page and went up from there, and that that was typical, he sounded rather stunned. I told him I would post his email address to the list and that if he were willing to work with a beginner he might get the job done for less money, but I couldn't make any promises. He might end up just trying to do it himself, but I think it's worth talking to him. He wants to decide within the week. If someone is looking for their first job, and would do it for maybe $1 or $1.50 a page, you'd still make a bunch of money and you'd have one under your belt. I did my first for $1 page and don't regret it at all. His name is Russ Farnham and his email address is walrusgenealogy@juno.com PLEASE PLEASE reply directly to him, not to me or to the list. If this would be your first index, don't be afraid to say so--I told him I would suggest that beginners call him, and he understands. If you have Sky Index, that would be a plus as that's what he's got. He likes it a lot. (Free plug for SkyIndex :-) If someone does get the job, can you let me know?? And on a marketing success note, some of the many hours of marketing I did way back in January are now starting to pay off. I got 2 calls Friday, 1 Thursday, and an email query, all from that round of marketing. So don't lose faith if you don't hear anything for months. Your efforts will pay off! And Russ called me because a friend of my parents told him he knew an indexer. So tell your parents to tell their friends. Tell everyone you know. It will work. (Anyone remember how discouraged I was midwinter? Soon I'll be turning work away if this keeps up!!!) Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:36:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Which rule would you break? Here's one for you. Which rule, if any, would you break in this case? The two conflicting rules are a) be consistent b) chose your wording based on what the audience would recognize easiest The situation: University of Nevada, Las Vegas and UNLV University of Nevada, Reno and UNR I have many subentries under both schools, with about half the entries of the first under the acronym UNLV and half under the spelled out version. and There are only three entries by the author noted as UNR, the rest being noted as University of Nevada, Reno. Topics under these headings include education, politics, administration,and sports. I will cross-reference from the entry without subentries to the one with sibentries. Following the rule to be consistent, I would place all subentries under either the acronyms or the spelled out version of the schools. but Following the rule to choose the most familiar wording, I would choose UNLV and University of Nevada, Reno - but this breaks the consistency rule and the two entries are then difficult to find quickly in the sorted index. Why would YOU use one over the other? Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:33:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? Martha wrote, >I have many subentries under both schools, with about half the entries >of >the first under the acronym UNLV and half under the spelled out >version. > and >There are only three entries by the author noted as UNR, the rest >being >noted as University of Nevada, Reno. > I would do it this way (though in alpha order!): University of Nevada, Reno, see UNR University of Nevada, Las Vegas, see UNLV UNLV (University of Nevada, Las Vegas) administration, 10 sub sub UNR (University of Nevada, Reno) administration, 12 sub Administration UNLV, 10 UNR, 12 This allows you to be consistent, plus it cuts down on subheading length. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:02:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Cambodian / and assumed names Why not try this: add a note to the index stating that "Until 19xx, Pol Pot was known by his birth name, Saloth Sar. All references in this index to Saloth Sar deal with events prior to 19xx. All references to Pol Pot deal with events after 19xx." Thereafter, you can index using the correct name for the time frame without all the mess of parens and cross-references which (in this case) would seem only to muddy the waters. Sandy Topping "No matter where you go, there you are." (Buckaroo Banzai) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:05:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? AAck! Be consistent AND use familiar terminology.... Place all subentries under the spelled out names: University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) University of Nevada, Reno (UNR) and cross refer: UNLV. See University of Nevada, Las Vegas UNR. See University of Nevada, Reno It's the only way to fly.... Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:13:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? And I just realized, all four entries would probably be sitting on top of each other in the finished index anyway: Uni Uni UNL UNR Again, aacck! It's a nasty problem... Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:03:36 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Newspaper Indexing and Published Corrections In-Reply-To: <03584108040788@domain1.bigpond.com> > I am interested in any comments or suggestions regarding how > corrections to > newspaper articles should be treated in an index, if at all. If a printed > correction appears to an article previously published, should 1) a > note/citation be included with the entry it refers to This option seems by far the best to me - it is certainly what I would hope for as a user. Someone who finds a reference to an article should be given as much access as possible to any corrections relating to that article. I visited a newspaper library on a post-indexing conference tour where they showed their computerised system. They had it set up so that if you found an article a box would pop up on top of it saying "ALERT" (or something) if there had been any corrections. Journalists reuse a lot of material, and if they didn't have a system like this they could keep on promulgating errors (which leads to the risk of libel suits, if nothing else). Glenda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:30:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Cambodian / and assumed names In a message dated 8/1/98 5:14:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET writes: > > I'm currently working on a book which deals extensively with Pol Pot, but > refers to him exclusively as Saloth Sar for over 130 pages (chronologically > speaking, until he actually changed his name.) If I direct readers from > "Saloth Sar" to "Pol Pot" it takes care of those readers who already know > Pol Pot's birth name. However, I need some way to indicate the birth name > to readers who look up "Pol Pot," since if they look in the first 130 > pages, they will not find him [by that name.] I'm leaning toward listing > him as > Pol Pot (Saloth Sar) > with multiple subheads and a cross-reference from Saloth Sar. Is there a > better way to handle this? > Would it be possible to address this problem in and introductory note?? Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:16:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: AOL upgrade If you're an AOL subscriber (running at least Pentium level) and haven't yet downloaded the 4.0 upgrade, I recommend it highly. I did it yesterday (despite the 1 hour + download time on a 33.9 modem!) and have no regrets. It runs MUCH faster than the old version, including connecting to Web sites, and the email program has had some real tweaking. Among other things, the address book is now in alpha order, you can distinguish between individuals and groups when adding new names to the address book, and you can switch user names without having to log out first. Now if they can just fry the spam... Carolyn Weaver ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:31:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Cambodian / and assumed names Sandy suggested: > Why not try this: add a note to the index stating that "Until 19xx, Pol Pot > was known by his birth name, Saloth Sar. All references in this index to > Saloth Sar deal with events prior to 19xx. All references to Pol Pot deal > with events after 19xx." Thereafter, you can index using the correct name for > the time frame without all the mess of parens and cross-references which (in > this case) would seem only to muddy the waters. Ah! The perfect solution! I can even add subheads to further clarify: Pol Pot before 19xx. See Saloth Sar Saloth Sar after 19xx. See Pol Pot That ought to take care of anyone who misses the headnote. Thanks, Sandy and Ann (who offered a similar suggestion.) Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 12:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? In-Reply-To: <199808012205.SAA14528@mail1.bellsouth.net> When I get entries like this, I ALWAYS put the main entry under the full, formal, spelled-out name. Doing the entry for the benefit of "the reader" means ALL readers, not just one who recognizes the acronym. Hence: University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) University of Nevada, Reno (UNR) ...and I wouldn't even bother with See entries under the acronyms, since they'd all fall together in the 'U' section of the index. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of BWI > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 1998 2:36 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Which rule would you break? > > > Here's one for you. Which rule, if any, would you break in this case? > The two conflicting rules are > a) be consistent > b) chose your wording based on what the audience would > recognize easiest > > The situation: > University of Nevada, Las Vegas and UNLV > University of Nevada, Reno and UNR > > I have many subentries under both schools, with about half the entries of > the first under the acronym UNLV and half under the spelled out version. > and > There are only three entries by the author noted as UNR, the rest being > noted as University of Nevada, Reno. > > Topics under these headings include education, politics, > administration,and > sports. I will cross-reference from the entry without subentries to the > one with sibentries. > > Following the rule to be consistent, I would place all subentries under > either the acronyms or the spelled out version of the schools. > but > Following the rule to choose the most familiar wording, I would > choose UNLV > and University of Nevada, Reno - but this breaks the consistency rule and > the two entries are then difficult to find quickly in the sorted index. > > Why would YOU use one over the other? > > Martha > Back Words Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:25:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? In-Reply-To: <199808021703.NAA09512@camel26.mindspring.com> At 12:01 PM 8/2/98 -0500, you wrote: >When I get entries like this, I ALWAYS put the main entry under the full, >formal, spelled-out name. Doing the entry for the benefit of "the reader" >means ALL readers, not just one who recognizes the acronym. Hence: > > University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) > University of Nevada, Reno (UNR) > Except in the world of computer books, where the acronyms are sometimes so well known that you would annoy the reader by indexing under the spelled out version. Who would look up HypertText Markup Language instead of HTML? Or Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol instead of TCP/IP? Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:14:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Cambodian / and assumed names In-Reply-To: <199808020105.SAA02240@pacific.net> Sandy wrote: >Why not try this: add a note to the index stating that "Until 19xx, Pol Pot >was known by his birth name, Saloth Sar. All references in this index to >Saloth Sar deal with events prior to 19xx. All references to Pol Pot deal >with events after 19xx." Thereafter, you can index using the correct name for >the time frame without all the mess of parens and cross-references which (in >this case) would seem only to muddy the waters. Another solution is shown in CMS 17.80: Barrett, Elizabeth (later Elizabeth Barrett Browning), 12, 18-36. ^See also^ Browning, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Elizabeth Barrett, 128, 143-45. ^See also^ Barrett, Elizabeth --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:12:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? Ditto. If you had a huge "U" section, then you might want to consider cross references. As it is, the reader will find them. -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael K. Smith [SMTP:mksmith1@BELLSOUTH.NET] > Sent: Sunday, August 02, 1998 1:02 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Which rule would you break? > > When I get entries like this, I ALWAYS put the main entry under the full, > formal, spelled-out name. Doing the entry for the benefit of "the reader" > means ALL readers, not just one who recognizes the acronym. Hence: > > University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) > University of Nevada, Reno (UNR) > > ...and I wouldn't even bother with See entries under the acronyms, since > they'd all fall together in the 'U' section of the index. > > Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services > mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 > http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of BWI > > Sent: Saturday, August 01, 1998 2:36 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Which rule would you break? > > > > > > Here's one for you. Which rule, if any, would you break in this case? > > The two conflicting rules are > > a) be consistent > > b) chose your wording based on what the audience would > > recognize easiest > > > > The situation: > > University of Nevada, Las Vegas and UNLV > > University of Nevada, Reno and UNR > > > > I have many subentries under both schools, with about half the entries > of > > the first under the acronym UNLV and half under the spelled out version. > > and > > There are only three entries by the author noted as UNR, the rest being > > noted as University of Nevada, Reno. > > > > Topics under these headings include education, politics, > > administration,and > > sports. I will cross-reference from the entry without subentries to the > > one with sibentries. > > > > Following the rule to be consistent, I would place all subentries under > > either the acronyms or the spelled out version of the schools. > > but > > Following the rule to choose the most familiar wording, I would > > choose UNLV > > and University of Nevada, Reno - but this breaks the consistency rule > and > > the two entries are then difficult to find quickly in the sorted index. > > > > Why would YOU use one over the other? > > > > Martha > > Back Words Indexing > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:10:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BWI Subject: Which rule - Chocolates to Sandy Topping,, Michael Smith, Sharon Wright, Richard Evans, and Susan Hernandez - I will sort to the spelled out heading, and will not use cross-referenced acronyms (UNLV, UNR) for these entries at all for exactly the reason that they all fall right next to each other in this particular index. I appreciate the confirmation. Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:31:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: CHAT & FWD: Seidman's Online Insider Apologies in advance; I normally would not forward something like this, but this issue contains a few URLs and a couple of philosophical issues that members might interest Listers. [If you want to flame someone, write Seidman himself, please.] -------- Forwarded Message -------- ===================================================================== Seidman's Online Insider - Vol. 5, Issue 23 Visit the Online Insider on the Web for additional content and access to the Insider Talk discussion forums. < http://www.onlineinsider.com > ===================================================================== Copyright (C) 1998 Robert Seidman. All rights reserved. May be reproduced in any medium for noncommercial purposes as long as attribution is given. IN THIS ISSUE - Author's Note - Does it Have to be COOL to be Meaningful? - Stock Watch - I Need Some Help - Subscription Info Author's Note ============= For those of you who were wondering if I died or stopped publishing the newsletter or if your name fell off the mailing list -- rest easy. I didn't die or stop publishing the newsletter and your e-mail address didn't fall of the mailing list. What I did was move from Port Chester, NY (about 35 miles northeast of New York City) to San Francisco, California. As moves go, this one wasn't bad at all, but it all wound up coming together more quickly than I thought (my landlord in NY wanted to sell my unit, I didn't want to buy it and the first couple who looked at it DID want to buy it). So then I started thinking, "If I have to put all my stuff on a truck, I might as well move to San Francisco!" Anyway, I wound up taking a few weeks off from the newsletter gig. I've always loved San Francisco and wanted to move here for a while. Im at a place where I can more or less (mostly less) where I can afford to do it, so I figured now was a good time to make the move. I did not move out here for a new job or even because this area is where more high-tech stuff happens (even though it is), I moved out here because this is where I wanted to live. However, since I'm here now, I will be taking on some new work that I'll fill you in on in one of the next few newsletters. If you've been meaning to buy Good Reports' first report, "In Search of E-Commerce," but just haven't gotten around it yet, please remember to check out http://www.goodreports.com for all the details. It's great to be "back" and I should be back on the every-other-week schedule as of now. If you've asked to join the "Insider Talk" discussions in the last month or so, I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. The access information should be sent to you within a week or so. See "I Need Some Help" (below) for more details. I wrote this without the capable help of Bernadette Barone who usually makes sure I don't mangle the language. Usually I give free subscriptions to anyone finding a typo, but given that I'm a little out of practice, I don't want to hear from you unless you can find TWENTY typos! Does it Have to be COOL to be Meaningful? ========================================= Although I have moved to San Francisco, I was reading the Silicon Alley Daily -- the e-mail sidekick to the print version of the Silicon Alley Reporter (you can sign up for the Silicon Alley Daily for free by visiting the web site at: < http://www.siliconalleyreporter.com > the other day and it got me thinking. The newsletter contained an editorial from the magazine's editor and publisher, Jason McCabe Calacanis titled "What was the last thing you saw on the Net that made you say, "Wow!?" Calacanis talked about how when he sent a message to the World Wide Web Artists Consortium list ( or the WWWAClist ) that most of the responses he received back pointed him to Shockwave Flash animation sites. So I started thinking about this some. I mean, I have seen some cool uses of Flash. But how useful or meaningful to my life are they? And how do the users who don't have T1s, ISDN, Cable Modems or xDSL (pretty much all home users) feel about them? For myself I've concluded there is a lot of cool stuff, but most of it isn't all that useful. And like Calacanis, it doesn't make me go "WOW!". While I'm sure a thing or two will come along that will make me say "WOW!", I really don't think that's what the Internet is about. I mean, sooner or later we take whatever it is that is making us say "Wow!" for granted anyway, and it doesn't make us think "wow!" anymore. For example, what if I told you that you could communicate with anyone (provided they have access) anywhere in the world for, relatively speaking, FREE. That would be pretty cool, wouldn't it? And what if I told you that you could figure out how to communicate with 3,000 or 30,000 or, depending on what you're writing about 300,000 or even 3,000,000 people, without spending much money? I bet you would think those things are pretty cool if you thought about them! These are things that you can't really "see", so they probably won't make you say "Wow!". When bandwidth comes (for the 99.999% of us who don't have T-1s, Cable Modems, ISDN, or xDSL in our homes...okay, okay, so *I* do have ISDN, but that's not the point) one thing you will be able to SEE that will make you say WOW! is the video teleconferencing. You may have to spend $100-$200 on hardware, but it is pretty cool. Now conferencing with someone on a 28.8Kbps line (even if YOU have a T-1) is no great joy. But I've done cross country conferencing with people where I had ISDN and they did too. And it was pretty cool. Not all that meaningful to me. But then again I don't have children whose family is spread out all over the country. But if you and your family are in Seattle and your children's grandparents are in Florida, this sort of teleconferencing may very well be useful, meaningful and enjoyable. And cool, too. But whether it's e-mail, buddy lists and instant messaging, bulletin boards, or teleconferencing, the communications aspects of the Internet are all very cool. And though we may not always say "Wow!" over these things, deep down, we do. It is the communications aspects that excited me way back in 1982 when I connected to a bulletin board system via modem for the first time. And it was the communications aspects that held my attention for the longest time. Since then though, I've come to see an even cooler aspect. To me, the power of the Internet isn't so much wrapped up in communications, or commerce. The true power to me is all the information available. For the first time, everyone (with access) is on equal footing to make very informed choices. Whether it's about buying a car, what mutual fund to invest in, what are the best restaurants to eat in, or the best college to go to -- there is so much information available to help you make the best choices possible. You are empowered. And a not small amount of focus is given to the issue of the "information haves" vs. the "information have-nots". Indeed, it is an issue of concern. But I believe that maybe it is an issue of too much concern. At the end of the day, if somebody is willing to pay for it (and I'm sure that eventually, we can find a way to pay for it that works for most people, most of the time) we can solve the access dilemma. That really all boils down to money. Not an easy problem, but not insurmountable either. The bigger issue to me, the one that will not be so easy to solve is this: how do you make someone WANT to be empowered? My best guess is that you can't make someone want to be empowered. They either desire to be empowered or they don't. And guess what, LOTS of people don't. Perhaps you see this as cynicism or myopia, but I don't think it is either. There will be people who don't care to be empowered. Technology won't empower someone, no matter how cool it is, no matter how much it makes you or I say "wow!", if they don't want to be empowered. But who knows, maybe this is just a marketing problem that AOL will be able to solve. ;-) The next generation of cool things will be the things that combine the communication tools with the information that empowers in new ways. So new, I don't really know what they are yet. But what I do know is that it's a level significantly beyond the things we have today. For a limited example of this, I think of Natrificial's "The Brain". The Brain seeks to allow you to organize all of your digital content in the way that you naturally think. For me it doesn't work so well. Perhaps that's because over the years of using computers, I've had to access digital content the way that made sense to the computer. Unlearning all that experience isn't easy for me. But I can see where you'd get a lot out of it after spending a lot of time getting it set up. You can check out "The Brain" at: < http://www.thebrain.com/ >. Jerry Michalski, who was editor of Esther Dyson's Release 1.0 newsletter swears by The Brain. The latest version of the software will allow you to "publish" your own "brain" on the Internet. This is quite an interesting concept. For example, once Michalski publishes his "brain" (and he will, if he hasn't already), we'll all have access to it. So, we'll have access to Michalski's digital content AND any thoughts he has on that content and issues that are important to him. I'm not suggesting this will replace actually talking to people (in fact, I could see where it would lead to increased communication). But, if I can't get a hold of Mr. Michalski, and I want to know what he thinks about something I can check out his "brain". If it's in his "brain", I'll get to see what he thinks. The only problem I have with this approach is that you need to have a brain (the real one) as big as Michalski's to make good use of this, and I for one, do not. It needs to be made easier for me. But it highlights an interesting opportunity. I like the way Michalski thinks. I don't always agree with him, but he always makes me think, and I trust him. So for me, this approach is superior to scanning the newsgroups via DejaNews < http://www.dejanews.com > to find out what someone thinks who I do not know. There are a lot of other folks I trust and if I had access to that sort of insight without actually having to bug the people individually all the time, that would be great. Where it gets too hard with The Brain, I believe, is that most people will not spend the time necessary to set up their "brains". But seemingly, it's not a big leap to think someday that this sort of thing could be automated. There are a slew of access issues (I only want these people to see all of my brain, these people get to see only these parts, etc.), but the ability to get information from specific trusted people (not just sources like the Wall Street Journal) presents some fantastic opportunities. I hope we'll see some development in this area. To me, it's a notch above buying books online. Buying books online is cool. You can shop in your underwear in the middle of the night and browsing is easy if there is a good search tool. But at the end of the day this is just "bringing the bookstore to you". It can be more convenient, and even easier (but in spite of what you read, I find it is rarely cheaper when you factor in shipping!). This is not a radical new way of doing things. A new way of doing things, yes, but not all that radical of a new way. And from where I sit, that's definitely okay for now. There are a lot of things that aren't perhaps radically different. But they're different enough to make things a little better, a little easier. For now, I'll settle for being able to listen to Yankees and Orioles baseball games from San Francisco. We may not consider any longer that the things we have now are radically new ways of doing things. But I think 20 years ago, we would have. The more radically different stuff is coming. It's just that by the time it gets here, it may not seem so radical to us. But it will empower us -- those who wish to be empowered -- in new ways that were not available before. And that's plenty radical enough for me. endeth the Lesson.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rebecca Carr Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 1 Aug 1998 to 2 Aug 1998 I agree with Michael Smith. I am not familiar with UNLV or UNR, so I would have no idea what they mean. Persons who don't live in my region may not know what UTHSCD, UTA, or UNT mean. Becky ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:06:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: test trying ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:13:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Coker Subject: Re: test Hi Pam, e-mail problems? At 01:06 PM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >trying > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:05:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Eudora question This question has to do with the Eudora mail program 1.5.4 running under WIN 95: Does anyone know what causes this Eudora message: "Error reading from network. Cause socket is not connected (10057)." Is it being caused by a Win95 compatability issue? I find that a a soft boot and a reconnection to my ISP eliminates the problem every time, but would prefer not to have to shut down to receive mail twice a day! Thanks for any and all comments. Believe me, if I could find the socket, I'd plug it in! Barbara Stroup ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:47:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Eudora question In-Reply-To: <199808032309.TAA06236@camel5.mindspring.com> At 07:05 PM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >This question has to do with the Eudora mail program 1.5.4 running under WIN 95: >Does anyone know what causes this Eudora message: >"Error reading from network. Cause socket is not connected (10057)." If you don't get an answer here, try posting to comp.mail.eudora.ms-windows. I saw one thread there with "10057" in the subject, but it was near the tail end of the thread and the preceding postings had expired. It mentioned an earlier posting that pointed to some online resource, but the actual URL was long gone. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:20:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: test In-Reply-To: <199808032122.OAA00287@decibel.electriciti.com> Thanks, Jennifer: I was wondering. Looks like all is fine. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:20:02 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Re: Eudora question In-Reply-To: <199808032309.TAA01499@jane.penn.com> At 07:05 PM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >This question has to do with the Eudora mail program 1.5.4 running under WIN 95: >Does anyone know what causes this Eudora message: >"Error reading from network. Cause socket is not connected (10057)." > ------------------- I have Eudora, and it was giving me that message for a while. I poked around and finally found, in the "Advanced Network" settings, the option to "unload Winsock DLL after closing socket." Since I'd already tried everything else I could think of, I selected the not-unload WDLL option, and I think that worked. Really a lame answer, but there you are. I've had so many crashes with Win95 I hardly think about reinstalling it. I've lost personal stuff, but so far no indexes ... David Amundson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:31:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Party invitation - North Carolina My friend Ted Ehrhard, fiddler extraordinaire, is moving to Brattleboro, Vermont on 15 August. I am hosting a farewell party for him on Tuesday, 11 August, at our formal bonfire pit. Osei, a drummer from Ghana with the Chuck Davis dance troupe, is coming and will lead a drum circle. Many Celtic musicians are coming, with instruments. Ted wants to try a meld of Celtic and African music and say good-bye to all his friends in grand style. If you are a local fan of Celtic or traditional music, you probably own CDs by many of the musicians (Footloose, for example). This is the first party I have ever given. I just want a grand ceilidh. If you would like to come, please contact me privately for details; this is my only post on the subject. Trust me, you can't get here without explicit directions or a map. Cheers, Deborah, who has no rain plan Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:19:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: poor guy, was re job opp for beginners and others Russ Farnham has asked me to "turn off the faucet" as he has gotten over 25 replies. He didn't expect that at all. So he has asked me to ask you not to write to him if you haven't already. He's making his way through the replies he got. Thanks!!! Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: poor guy... This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF86.C3CDF6E0 Content-Type: text/plain Rachel, Thanks for posting the work opportunity for new indexers. I wasn't one of the 25 who contacted him, but I think it's great that you posted it! I hope other indexers who hear about jobs they are not able or willing to take will consider posting the contact information. Most indexers probably prefer to make a direct referral to an indexer they know, but if that doesn't work, it seems INDEX-L is a good next step. I'd guess that the publisher would appreciate the effort, also. Anne Day > ---------- > From: Rachel Rice > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, August 4, 1998 7:19 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: poor guy, was re job opp for beginners and others > > Russ Farnham has asked me to "turn off the faucet" as he has gotten > over 25 > replies. He didn't expect that at all. So he has asked me to ask you > not to > write to him if you haven't already. He's making his way through the > replies he got. > > Thanks!!! > > Rachel > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF86.C3CDF6E0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rachel,

Thanks for posting the work = opportunity for new indexers. I wasn't one of the 25 who contacted him, = but I think it's great that you posted it! I hope other indexers who = hear about jobs they are not able or willing to take will consider = posting the contact information.


Most indexers probably prefer = to make a direct referral to an indexer they know, but if that doesn't = work, it seems INDEX-L is a good next step.  I'd guess that the = publisher would appreciate the effort, also.


Anne Day

    ----------
    From:   Rachel Rice
    Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
    Sent:   Tuesday, August 4, 1998 7:19 AM
    To:     = Multiple recipients of list = INDEX-L
    Subject: =        poor guy, was re job opp for beginners and = others

    Russ Farnham has asked me to = "turn off the faucet" as he has gotten over 25
    replies. He didn't expect that at = all. So he has asked me to ask you not to
    write to him if you haven't already. = He's making his way through the
    replies he got.

    Thanks!!!

    Rachel

     Rachel Rice
     Directions Unlimited Desktop = Services
     Indexing, editing, = proofreading
     http://homepages.together.net/~racric

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF86.C3CDF6E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:03:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Eudora question This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF7E.E90ADE30 Content-Type: text/plain And I thought you were going to talk about Eudora Welty...silly me!! > -----Original Message----- > From: Barbara Stroup [SMTP:indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 3:06 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Eudora question > > This question has to do with the Eudora mail program 1.5.4 running > under WIN 95: > Does anyone know what causes this Eudora message: > "Error reading from network. Cause socket is not connected (10057)." > Is it being caused by a Win95 compatability issue? I find that a a > soft boot > and a reconnection to my ISP eliminates the problem every time, but > would > prefer not to have to shut down to receive mail twice a day! > Thanks for any and all comments. Believe me, if I could find the > socket, I'd > plug it in! > Barbara Stroup ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF7E.E90ADE30 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And I thought you were going to = talk about Eudora Welty...silly me!!

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Barbara Stroup = [SMTP:indexa2z@THE-SPA.COM]
    Sent:   Tuesday, August 04, 1998 3:06 AM
    To:     Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
    Subject:       = Eudora question

    This question has = to do with the Eudora mail program 1.5.4 running under WIN 95:
    Does anyone know = what causes this Eudora message:
    "Error reading = from network.  Cause socket is not connected (10057)."
    Is it being caused = by a Win95 compatability issue? I find that a a soft boot
    and a reconnection = to my ISP eliminates the problem every time, but would
    prefer not to have = to shut down to receive mail twice a day!
    Thanks for any and = all comments. Believe me, if I could find the socket, I'd
    plug it in!
    Barbara = Stroup

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF7E.E90ADE30-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:29:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Apologies My apologies to the list. I forgot to change the send options. Mea culpa. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Eudora question In-Reply-To: <199808041503.LAA13140@camel5.mindspring.com> At 08:03 AM 8/4/98 -0700, you wrote: > > And I thought you were going to talk about Eudora Welty...silly me!! > Well, sort of. According to the file of tips and trivia that comes with Eudora it was named for Eudora Welty. No explanation of why. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:40:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Eudora question This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF84.1F832A80 Content-Type: text/plain Was it really?? To say the least that seems quite incongruous. Thanks for the info. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 4:30 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Eudora question > > At 08:03 AM 8/4/98 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > And I thought you were going to talk about Eudora Welty...silly me!! > > > > > Well, sort of. According to the file of tips and trivia that comes > with > Eudora > it was named for Eudora Welty. No explanation of why. > > Dick Evans ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF84.1F832A80 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Was it really?? To say the least = that seems quite incongruous. Thanks for the info.

Toni

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Richard Evans = [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM]
    Sent:   Tuesday, August 04, 1998 4:30 PM
    To:     Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
    Subject:       = Re: Eudora question

    At 08:03 AM 8/4/98 = -0700, you wrote:

    >
    > And I thought = you were going to talk about Eudora Welty...silly me!!
    >


    Well, sort = of.  According to the file of tips and trivia that comes = with
    Eudora
    it was named for = Eudora Welty.  No explanation of why.

    Dick Evans

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDBF84.1F832A80-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:56:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Trish Wittenstein Subject: Re: Eudora question All, Having just completed an index to a bio of Eudora Welty, I can answer the question regarding the name. Steve Dorner, the creator of the software, had read Welty's short story "Why I Live at the P.O." and identified completely with the theme! Hence, his inspiration to name it....Eudora. Trish Wittenstein Three Rivers, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:21:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Olson Subject: Newspaper Indexing-Software Used Dear Susan, In response to your question about the software I am using for newspaper indexing, I am currently using the student version of CINDEX (v. 6.0). The student version provides up to 375 entries per index and no spell checking. I have been creating a separate index for each month of the weekday paper, and then merging 2 or 3 consecutive months together depending on the final entry count for each month. I was able to create one index each for the Saturday paper and the Sunday paper for one complete year. I then converted the remaining combined indexes into a .rtf file and opened up in WORD for spell checking, further combining, etc. This has been a very tedious and has taken quite a bit of time but it has provided me with a chance to learn how to use the software. I am not familiar with which software package most newspaper indexers use. I suspect that CINDEX, MACREX and SKY (others?) can all be set up to easily handle newspaper indexing. I chose CINDEX at this point because the demo version provided me with the most room to practice and experiment. Perhaps others on the list can make recommendations or offer points to consider. Good luck, Debbie Olson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:38:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Message from Romania This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_902259495_boundary Content-ID: <0_902259495@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII All - The message below, with no subject line, was received by me today (actually I received it twice). It appears to be entirely self-explanatory. All I know is what is in the message. I do not know Mr. Pop, or why he chose to write to me. I do not know if he has written to others on Index-L. Mr. Pop clearly seems to be reaching out. Because the content does not seem to me to be personal or private, I am taking the liberty of posting it to the listserv in the expectation that some of you might wish to respond to/correspond with him. Bob Richardson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --part0_902259495_boundary Content-ID: <0_902259495@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v46.20) with SMTP; Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:14:03 -0400 Received: from cclub-ar.inext.ro (gw.cclub-ar.inext.ro [193.230.192.27]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id IAA05180 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from st15.cclub-ar ([192.168.0.115]) by cclub-ar.inext.ro (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA05705 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:15:55 +0300 Message-Id: <199808041215.PAA05705@cclub-ar.inext.ro> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Pop Dan Iosif" To: robjrich@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:13:39 +0000 X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Pop Dan Iosif" X-pmrqc: 1 Return-receipt-to: "Pop Dan Iosif" Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear Mrs. / Dear Sir My e -mail address is : pd021@cclub-ar.inext.ro My name is Daniel Pop I am a Chemical Engineer , Research Scientist and Library and Information Science expert interested to correspond with You . If possible please explain me what a indexer does ? Is he writing reviews about books and journals or is he doing a work like in Current Contents or Science Citation Index or so ? I am a collector of databases from all fields of human endeavour . I love it to collect interesting databases from all fields . What is Your hobby ? I am very interested to correspond with You , because I think that we could help each other and also have an interesting exchange of opinions and ideas . My postal address is : Daniel Pop C.P. 114 , O.P. 7 , Arad - 2900 , Romania Thanking You very much for Your Kindness and hoping in a correspondence with You , I send You my best personal regards . Yours Sincerely Daniel Pop --part0_902259495_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:33:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debbie Olson Subject: Newspaper Indexing-Thank You/Follow Up Question Dear Indexers, Thank you for your responses regarding how to index corrections for articles previously published in a newspaper. I have one follow up question - Is it a good idea to include some sort of disclaimer in the introduction to the index such as "Every attempt has been made to index all pertinent articles and associated corrections and the indexer is not responsible for omissions...?" Thanks again, Debbie Olson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:51:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Authors vs. publishers As many people have already said, working directly for authors can be a wonderful or a terrible experience; it's important to clarify your expectations up front, including price and what kind of input the author can expect to have. I think connecting directly with an academic author can be a very good way to get your first job. But in the long run, we talk mostly about trying to find publishers to hire us because they're a source of repeat business. I started with two clients, but they gave me enough jobs between them to make a living my first year. (By the way, this wasn't starting cold but going out on my own with references and experience managing an indexing collective.) Most authors write one book a year or less, so working for them can get you experience, lines on your resume and sometimes a connection with a publisher, but not an ongoing source of work. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:04:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lisa Lister Subject: Re: Party invitation - North Carolina I DON'T KNOW YOU, SO ASSUME THIS INVITATION IS FOR A LISA YOU DO KNOW! SOUNDS LIKE A GREAT PARTY. Lisa in Colorado. > My friend Ted Ehrhard, fiddler extraordinaire, is moving to Brattleboro, >Vermont on 15 August. I am hosting a farewell party for him on Tuesday, 11 >August, at our formal bonfire pit. Osei, a drummer from Ghana with the >Chuck Davis dance troupe, is coming and will lead a drum circle. Many >Celtic musicians are coming, with instruments. Ted wants to try a meld of >Celtic and African music and say good-bye to all his friends in grand >style. If you are a local fan of Celtic or traditional music, you probably >own CDs by many of the musicians (Footloose, for example). > > This is the first party I have ever given. I just want a grand ceilidh. > > If you would like to come, please contact me privately for details; this >is my only post on the subject. Trust me, you can't get here without >explicit directions or a map. > >Cheers, >Deborah, who has no rain plan >Chapel Hill, North Carolina, USA >shawd@mindspring.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:22:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Fwd: Message from Romania In-Reply-To: <199808041946.PAA32155@camel5.mindspring.com> At 03:38 PM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--part0_902259495_boundary >Content-ID: <0_902259495@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >All - > >The message below, with no subject line, was received by me today (actually I >received it twice). It appears to be entirely self-explanatory. All I know >is what is in the message. I do not know Mr. Pop, or why he chose to write to >me. I do not know if he has written to others on Index-L. > I got it too and haven't decided how to respond. I suspect the best thing to do is simply point him at INDEX-L and the ASI Web page. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:42:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Fwd: Message from Romania I also personally received the message from Romania twice...The first message was from one server and the second was from another, which I thought was strange. Could be legit, but who knows. At 04:22 PM 8/4/98 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >At 03:38 PM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >> >>All - >> >>The message below, with no subject line, was received by me today >(actually I >>received it twice). It appears to be entirely self-explanatory. All I know >>is what is in the message. I do not know Mr. Pop, or why he chose to >write to >>me. I do not know if he has written to others on Index-L. >> > >I got it too and haven't decided how to respond. I suspect the best thing >to do is simply point him at INDEX-L and the ASI Web page. > >Dick > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:54:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: listserv address for Copyedit-L Hi, All I've been trying to find the address to subscribe to copyedit-l to no avail. If you know, would you please send me the info? Thanks! Karen Field Technical Editor Karen_Field@intuit.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: listserv address for Copyedit-L Karen Field wrote: > > Hi, All > > I've been trying to find the address to subscribe to copyedit-l to no avail. If you know, would you please send me the info? Thanks! > The address for Copyediting-L is COPYEDITING-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU. They've just moved from Cornell to Indiana State, which may be why you had a bit of trouble finding it. You might also be interested to visit the Copy Editor web page at www.copyeditor.com. Kathy Babbitt kbab@northnet.org Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:37:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: listserv address for Copyedit-L In-Reply-To: <199808042126.RAA27841@camel23.mindspring.com> Ah, but that's the posting address. The subscribing information, from the CE-L guidelines, is Send all COMMANDS to: listserv@listserv.indiana.edu SUBSCRIBE OR UNSUBSCRIBE subscribe copyediting-l "Firstname Lastname" Replace "Firstname Lastname" with your real first name and your real last name, omitting the quotation marks. unsubscribe copyediting-l Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Harper's job posting? Hi listmembers, Does anyone still have the position announcement searching for NYC-area indexers to work on the Harper's project? I deleted the post without thinking of a NY friend, and now can't find it. I've retrieved the last week's archives, and now am beginning to think perhaps I saw the post on another list. If anyone has the post, can you please email me a copy at: marcelyn@westol.com Thanks for the help for this forgetful lass! Marcy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:23:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Victoria wrote: << Until the last two decades, the words used to label anyone who wasn't male, white, heterosexual, and physically able were determined only by those who were. In other words, it is only very recently that nonwhite, nonmale persons have been able to self-label. This change is understandably disconcerting to some people. >> Thanks, Victoria. Bob, I know you're just trying to lighten things up, which you've done so very effectively before! But I would really like it if, when people are tempted to start being annoyed about having to watch their language, they would think about the people that the language is referring to. To take just one quote from the Little Red Riding Hood piece (which I'll remind people that Bob didn't write!), "Nor did she intend to denigrate the equal value of nontraditional households, although she was sorry if this was the impression conveyed." This may seem hilariously picky to some people. But to a person like me, who lives my life in a nontraditional (lesbian) household, it's not particularly funny. My "lifestyle" (that is, my family, my partner, my daily life) is denigrated constantly, every time I read the newspaper or watch TV. This happens through direct putdowns and misinformation; it also happens through exclusion and invisibility. It takes quite a lot of psychic energy to not let that denigration creep into how I feel about myself and my relationships (although I don't allow it to!). This experience is similar (though not identical) to that of people of color in this country, of people with disabilities, and of many, many other groups who don't belong to the privileged set that Victoria outlined above. Okay. I do apologize for getting so personal on this professional list. I decided to do it because the whole point of this discussion, for me, is that we're talking about real people who have been excluded not just from discourse but from the very structure of our language, and who have not been able until recently to choose what we are called. The labeling issue isn't just about accuracy. One thing that happens to groups that are excluded from the mainstream is that their labels are, over and over again, taken over and used in denigrating ways. This necessitates a new label that doesn't have that negative connotation. Instead of complaining about the very real inconvenience of keeping up with all these changes, I would rather be concerned about the rejection of differences in our society that makes the changes necessary so that people can have control over their own identities. And I second Victoria's excellent post about alternate access points. For indexers, this stuff does indeed cause problems. I struggle with it all the time. It would be easier if we had a language that was straightforward, that included and was respectful of everybody, and that we could just use without thinking about it. But we're still in the process of constructing that language. Of course indexers are going to make mistakes (or what some people consider as mistakes) sometimes. Of course every single member of a group isn't going to want to be called the same thing. As long as I'm trying to the best of my ability to be respectful, to use the terms that are generally accepted among members of a particular group (no matter how often that changes), and to keep myself informed of those changes, I think I'm doing a good job. I hope we can all refrain from smashing each other down when we're genuinely trying; gently give each other information when it's missing; and keep the dialogue going. Thank you very much for listening to this. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:27:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: Eudora question Oh my goodness, I've never been all that interested in Eudora (the product), but I may have to reconsider now. "Why I live at the P.O." is one of my all-time favorite stories. I used to have a marvelous tape of Eudora Welty reading her own works, and that was one of the funniest things I've ever heard... ever. Check it out if you've never read it or heard it: http://art-bin.com/art/or_weltypostoff.html It's funny enough to read, but much, much funnier to listen to. She reads it very fast, with a very dry tone. Thanks, Trish, for reminding me of this story. Ann Norcross Trish Wittenstein wrote: > > All, > > Having just completed an index to a bio of Eudora Welty, I can answer the > question regarding the name. Steve Dorner, the creator of the software, had > read Welty's short story "Why I Live at the P.O." and identified completely > with the theme! Hence, his inspiration to name it....Eudora. > > Trish Wittenstein > Three Rivers, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Babbitt Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood (longish) I just want to applaud Do Mi's courage and support everything she says. As a bisexual woman, I find that my lifestyle is also denigrated -- both in the mainstream culture and in lesbian/gay culture as well. I want to reiterate her point that oppressed groups who name themselves deserve the respect of other cultural groups. We no longer call African Americans Negroes for this reason. This is a very complex issue. Oftentimes it is okay for members of a subculture to call themselves and each other by names that are grievous insults when uttered by people who do not belong to their group. And almost always there are members of a subculture who do not agree with the most current name and insist that others call them by something else. It's okay for my lesbian friend to call me a dyke -- in fact, it's her way of telling me that to her I'm still a part of the lesbian community, which means a lot to me. But it's emphatically not okay for an administrator to complain about my pedagogy or my curriculum because I'm "just another one of those dyke teachers." (Actually happened.) Someone wrote last week or so ago that groups who named themselves were trying to hijack the language, or making a power play, or something like that, as if that were somehow a violation of rules. I was offended by the comment, just as I was offended by the Little Red Riding Hood tale. Yes, it *is* an empowering thing to name oneself and to claim membership in a self-identifying group. It is also a vital process that a group makes when it moves from a long history of great pain and oppression toward a positive identity. And it also invariably comes out of hard but rewarding work for social change. The new names that groups call themselves are not artifacts of trival gamesmanship, nor are they part of gratuitous in-your-face activism. They are the products of great pain, great joy, and great hope. They deserve respect. I write this because I've been feeling a little battered in the last several weeks by the tone of some of the contributions to this list. What some people (and by this I mean some people in our culture, not some people on this list) condescendingly call "PC" -- as if it were a joke that can be easily dismissed -- is important to my survival and ability to thrive and grow as a human being. The name "PC" has been used for too long to disempower my community of beings who do not fit the mold of mainstream culture. That's the power of a name. I'd like to find another one for what I try to do with my life. Sorry if this comes across as preachy. Didn't mean it that way. Kathy Babbitt kbab@northnet.org Canton, NY ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:28:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In a message dated 8/4/98 9:11:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kbab@NORTHNET.ORG writes: > Yes, it *is* an empowering thing to name oneself and to claim > membership in a self-identifying group. It is also a vital process that > a group makes when it moves from a long history of great pain and > oppression toward a positive identity. And it also invariably comes out > of hard but rewarding work for social change. The new names that groups > call themselves are not artifacts of trival gamesmanship, nor are > they part of gratuitous in-your-face activism. They are the products of > great pain, great joy, and great hope. They deserve respect. > Do Mi and Kathy, I have great respect for anyone who will put themselves "in the line of fire" in order to give a different viewpoint on such issues. I think one of the problems is that those of us -- who do not want to be denigrating in any way -- sometimes goof because we do not get this kind of feedback often enough. There was a post recently about terms used in psychology. *I* could relate to that because after struggling with depression and anxiety problems for several years myself, I would certainly prefer to be called a "depressed person" (or patient, etc.) rather than a "depressive". Names become "labels" when they dehumanize the persons referred to. (I side with Winston Churchill on that ending preposition; the spelling/grammar thread has made me a little self- conscious!) I have friends of various sexual orientations, but I did not imagine that the LRRHood story would touch a nerve. To me it was satire; not on the level of Swift's suggestion that the English eat Irish babes to solve some food distribution problems of that era, but still.... I can now see why Do Mi and Kathy would be sensitive to joking about "political correctness" -- malicious use of labels to deliberately put people down & shut them up has been acceptable behavior for most of mankind's history. What some of us see as funny, is that using the acceptable label has been taken to ridiculous lengths sometimes. It is not the PC phrases that are funny, but the people who make a big deal of using them to ingratiate themselves with the labelees! We have all seen those joke memos that are so laden with official sounding phrases that they are unintelligible. I think PC can get like that, but it is the *speaker/writer* who looks silly. Well, that is how I saw the LRRHood story. I acknowledge some people make fun of PC because they think the group referred to is silly, or etc. I just thought of the "bra burners" label for women's lib movement a couple of decades back. My mother was a liberated woman and didn't even know it -- she was born in 1910. But even I was embarrassed to associate myself with the "bra burners." At least now I can be unequivocally thankful for the changes they helped to bring about. Do Mi & Kathy: Most of us cannot really appreciate your situation, not having walked in those shoes, but I hope that we will not put our (unshod) feet in our mouths too often. We care about you and don't want to inadvertently cause you pain. At least that goes for me, and I think for most of the great people on this list also. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:51:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808050234.VAA0000013028@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> RE: This whole discussion of "PC" itself as a label that hurts. Often, such labeling and hurtful satirizing of those who wish to name themselves is meant to continue the status quo (that is, not granting mainstream legitimacy to whomever is asking to be self-named). Sometimes, I've found, the knee-jerk labeling of "PC" is the result simply of ignorance, that is, lack of knowledge. Regarding the latter, I so often here my undergraduate students quickly label someone a "feminist" as a pejorative term. As someone who has done some work in gender studies (both in women's studies and men's studies), I sometimes ask these students what they think a "feminist" is. Usually they give some silly answer like "someone who hates men" or "someone who's against housewives and families." I then ask if they've ever read anything written by a "feminist," or could name someone--a writer, a political figure, etc.--who is self-titled a "feminist." Usually, of course, they draw a blank. I then tell them a little bit about some of the ideas of someone like Audre Lorde or Suzanne Gordon, and they're surprised--why, my goodness, those are really good ideas! Tom Thomas Dean Assistant Professor New Center for Multidisciplinary Studies Moorhead State University 1104 7th Avenue South Moorhead MN 56563 (218)236-2955 FAX (218)236-2168 deantom@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu "The tender land, Where we begin To understand." -- Aaron Copland and Horace Everett, THE TENDER LAND ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:56:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Ann Truesdale wrote: << Most of us cannot really appreciate your situation, not having walked in those shoes, but I hope that we will not put our (unshod) feet in our mouths too often. We care about you and don't want to inadvertently cause you pain. At least that goes for me, and I think for most of the great people on this list also. >> Thank you so much, Ann. I believe that's true, and that is why I felt able to post what I did. I love what you say about unshod feet in mouths. One of the best things I ever read about anti-racist work (the work that I do from the privileged side) is that the job of us white people is not to never say anything in the fear that we'll put our feet in our mouths, but to keep putting our feet in our mouths and taking them out again, over and over. Maybe we all need some chocolate syrup to put on our feet? :-) I do like this professional community so much. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 04:46:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Thomas Dean wrote of people who use "feminist" as a pejorative term, when= they don't even know what it means. I hate it when people (invariably women) say, "I'm not a feminist, but... " Incidentally, I've had some strange looks for suggesting that men can also be feminists, if they support the aims of the women's movement. I'd like to think that we are a= ll feminists now, but that day still seems to lie in the future. At least, thank goodness, no one says to me any more, "I suppose you're o= ne of those women's libbers" - ugh! Going back to The PC Little Red Riding Hood and the whole "PC" thread, I don't automatically dislike new terms invented to empower a particular group; I just ask that they should be reasonably meaningful, not ludicrou= s, and preferably already used and accepted within the group in question. = Christine ************************************************************* Christine Shuttleworth - Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue, London W12 8JB Tel/Fax (+44 181) 749 8797 email ChristineShuttleworth@compuserve.com or 106234.1745@compuserve.com ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:32:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Rooney Subject: Re: How does "Oz" relate to Australia? You wrote: > I've heard the term "Oz" used in >reference to Australia several times in the last few weeks, on this >list and elsewhere, and I haven't a clue as to how the two relate. >Eileen Lutzow * My theory is this. In "Ozma of Oz", the 3rd book of the series, Dorothy and Uncle Henry are on a ship bound to Australia. They were going there "to visit his cousins and have a good rest." The probable itinerary was Kansas - San Francisco - Australia. Dorothy is swept overboard, and comes ashore in the Land of Ev. Then she is imprisoned by the Nome King, rescued by Ozma, and is invited to visit Oz, which is done by crossing the Deadly Desert. So evidently, Oz and the other countries are in the mid-Pacific, possibly near the lost continent of Mu. In the 6th book "Emerald City of Oz", Oz is rendered invisible by a magic spell, and from then on it can no longer be located in relation to our geography. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: Sam Andrusko Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808050024.UAA50022@rs8.loc.gov> > Victoria wrote: > > << Until the last two decades, the words used to label anyone who wasn't > male, > white, heterosexual, and physically able were determined only by those who > were. In other words, it is only very recently that nonwhite, nonmale > persons have been able to self-label. This change is understandably > disconcerting to some people. >> Well, since this quote has surfaced again: what bothers me most about this kind of blanket statement is that it is as full of overgeneralization and stereotypes as similar statements about the Elders of Zion, blacks, gays and any other "critical" statement about any other group you care to include. Change the words and you could have the same statement made by Jerry Falwell or the Aryan Nation or Farrakhan. If one thinks about it, it also lacks common sense. For example, "labels" equals language. So, white het males are really responsible for every language on earth and every nasty "label" ever applied to any minority group? (Underlying stereotype: all white het males are sinister creatures of evil and horror; not "twelve just men" among them. You mean there are no vicious white bi/gay males? Or het/bi/gay males of color?) Rubbish. Another one: women have never contributed a "label," i.e, word to any language on earth? (Underlying stereotype: woman as 100% dumb, ignorant, helpless "victim"--sort of like women as portrayed in monster movies: standing around and screaming helplessly or always falling and spraining an ankle?? More rubbish. Think of all the strong women you have known in your lives or know of in history. Sorry, folks, but I do not think "all" women, or even a large minority of them, have been helpless Southern belles fluttering uselessly about, etc. Women have never been a major component of/major contributor to any society?? Quatsch!) Does anyone really know who coined negative terms for any group? That many/some women of all colors do not use them? That some/many bi/gay women do not use them? Can anyone prove that any of these terms were coined by white het males? That only white het males use them? Can either one of those first two sentences be proved with facts and statistics? I doubt it. It sounds great, but upon closer examination .... Recently read an interesting observation: many of those qualities which are now considered "negative" in males (status seeking, agressiveness, competitiveness, etc.) are the very ones which (from a Darwinian perspective) most females have "selected" for through the millenia in seeking mates. I could go on, but won't--much longer. What bothers me about a lot of social/gender criticism, both from the right and the left, is that it makes absolute statements like Baker's above. It is never qualified by any kind of quantitative word (e.g., some white males, 33% of blacks, etc.). It bothers me that this kind of criticism is usually also 100% negative--therefore, "all" members of the group (in this case, white het males) are "demonized" -- and none of the good which most of the members of this group have created is ever recognized or admitted. It seems "everything" about them is bad. And once you have decided that ALL members of a certain group (e.g., white males, Jews, gays) are an "evil" negative and the world would be better off without them--well, what are you going to do with them? What scares me is that when this kind of belief/attitude motivates a government you end up with Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, etc. Kill off the middle class because it obstructs the revolution; kill off the Jews and gays because they infect the body politic; kill off the kulaks because they oppose collectivization. It bothers me greatly that most gender/social criticism fails to distinguish between the individual and the, ummm, "overall effect" (??) the group(s) to which he/she belongs has had on other groups. It is riddled with its own self-blinding stereotypes and prejudices, but of course considers its beliefs "divine truth" and anything to the contrary wrong. Many social/gender critics are doing the exact same thing they accuse the "dominant" classes of doing: stereotyping, demonizing, denigrating, etc. Well, end of rant. Sam Andrusko (who considers himself left-leaning, but thoughtful and not irrational about it. Jeesh, I've even voted Socialist Workers Party!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Sam Andrusko wrote: << For example, "labels" equals language. So, white het males are really responsible for every language on earth and every nasty "label" ever applied to any minority group? (Underlying stereotype: all white het males are sinister creatures of evil and horror; not "twelve just men" among them. You mean there are no vicious white bi/gay males? Or het/bi/gay males of color?) Rubbish.>> I offer the following anecdote in an attempt to inject a bit of humor into this discussion (which, though becoming quite heated, is very interesting and entertaining): I was once chatting with a group of fellow graduate students, one of whom had the annoying habit of relating every thing under the sun to male oppression. After listening to her rant for several minutes about how "all men are such and such" and "men are the cause of such and such horrible injustice," I remarked that given her low opinion of men, I was surprised that she even associated with me. With somewhat of a surprised look, she responded "Oh! I didn't mean you!" I have to admit that I wasn't sure how I was supposed to feel about this response.... BTW -- regarding the Little Red Riding Hood story; it's a JOKE, people! John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:17:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood I thought John Sullivan's story was funny, but then he wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808051417.JAA0000006227@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > BTW -- regarding the Little Red Riding Hood story; it's a JOKE, people! > > John Sullivan At the risk of being offensive, I will post the following to make a point: "What two words do you [if this is being told to a white person] never want to hear coming from a n*g*r? 'Hi, neighbor!'" Hey--It's just a JOKE! Tom Dean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Not quite in the same league as the Little Red Riding Hood story, I'm afraid. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Dean [SMTP:deantom@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 11:45 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood > > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > > > BTW -- regarding the Little Red Riding Hood story; it's a JOKE, people! > > > > John Sullivan > > At the risk of being offensive, I will post the following to make a point: > > "What two words do you [if this is being told to a white person] never > want to hear coming from a n*g*r? 'Hi, neighbor!'" > > Hey--It's just a JOKE! > > Tom Dean > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808050403.VAA27499@decibel.electriciti.com> I deeply wish it was not "courageous" for Do Mi to discuss her personal relationships in public. Sadly. It is. That is less likely in the future, if all of us openly share. The problem with euphemisms (i don't define as the p-term) is that it sorta implies that the speaker or writer is embarrassed about something--usually something that should not be defined as embarrassing. But, terms selecteled by a given community or individual tend to be different. I would avoid "deaf persons," but the politically active deaf community preferrs to be defined by deafness--the group view can, I suspect, vary. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:30:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Research site? In-Reply-To: <199808051549.IAA11108@decibel.electriciti.com> I am venturing into religious studies and wonder if there is a site for the humanities similar to PubMed for the life sciences. Pointers appreciated. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:55:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: Research site? At 09:30 AM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >I am venturing into religious studies and wonder if there is a site for the >humanities similar to PubMed for the life sciences. > >Pointers appreciated. >Pam Rider Pam, Take a peek at the "Religious & Theological Abstracts" website: http://www.rtabst.org/abstracts Their description in "Ulrich's" says, in part, that they index and abstract articles from over 400 scholarly periodicals. Also, many public and academic libraries/consortia offer access into periodical vendor systems such as OVID, EBSCO Host, and OCLC's FirstSearch. Databases such as the "Humanities Index", "PAIS", and the "Religion Index" may be offered for remote use. Anne Anne Taylor University of Missouri-St. Louis ataylor@umsl.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:01:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Did anyone consider that the point of the Red Riding Hood story may be that our language is being changed to the point that it will eventually be impossible to interpret what is being said or written? Me, I'm with George Carlin -- it's not post-traumatic stress disorder -- it's shell-shock! Sandy ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808051550.KAA0000032718@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> My point is simply that if something intended as humor hurts who has been discriminated against, it's not "just a joke." While today many people would object to ethnic jokes like the one I quoted, 50-75 years ago the sensibilities would have been different in "mainstream" American culture. I suspect that had I told that joke in 1940 and if a black person, or even someone of another ethnicity, objected, a typical response to the objection would be, "Hey, it was just a joke." The easy dismissal of objections by harmed people with such platitudes as "Hey, it was just a joke" persist, only they're applied to other groups--for example, once it's clear that telling black jokes isn't acceptable and can't be dismissed so simply, the simple dismissal is then transferred to other people--gays and lesbians, for example. We saw a similar thing happen with Clinton's ill-fated gays in the military moves early in his first administration--the arguments against acknowledging and accepting gays in the military were precisely the arguments used 30 and 40 years earlier against African-Americans in the military. I wonder--Had the term "PC" been around in 1940, would people who objected to "n*g**r" jokes then have been labeled "PC" as a dismissive term? I suspect so. Tom Dean On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > Not quite in the same league as the Little Red Riding Hood story, I'm > afraid. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Thomas Dean [SMTP:deantom@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 11:45 AM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood > > > > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > > > > > BTW -- regarding the Little Red Riding Hood story; it's a JOKE, people! > > > > > > John Sullivan > > > > At the risk of being offensive, I will post the following to make a point: > > > > "What two words do you [if this is being told to a white person] never > > want to hear coming from a n*g*r? 'Hi, neighbor!'" > > > > Hey--It's just a JOKE! > > > > Tom Dean > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:45:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood Well, I said I was going to shut up on this, but..... I have no clue as to how we got from "The Politically Correct Little Red Riding Hood" to racist "jokes." Seems like an incredible leap to me. Isn't there a question of intent here too? I didn't see any malicious intent in TPCLRRH; it just made me laugh. I've got more important things to worry about than to be offended by something as silly as that. If you're looking for it, you can find something offensive in a Spiderman comic strip. I can say no more...the language police are monitoring my email. Just kidding. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Dean [SMTP:deantom@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU] > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 3:25 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood > > My point is simply that if something intended as humor hurts who has been > discriminated against, it's not "just a joke." While today many people > would object to ethnic jokes like the one I quoted, 50-75 years ago the > sensibilities would have been different in "mainstream" American culture. > I suspect that had I told that joke in 1940 and if a black person, or even > someone of another ethnicity, objected, a typical response to the > objection would be, "Hey, it was just a joke." The easy dismissal of > objections by harmed people with such platitudes as "Hey, it was just a > joke" persist, only they're applied to other groups--for example, once > it's clear that telling black jokes isn't acceptable and can't be > dismissed so simply, the simple dismissal is then transferred to other > people--gays and lesbians, for example. We saw a similar thing happen > with Clinton's ill-fated gays in the military moves early in his first > administration--the arguments against acknowledging and accepting gays in > the military were precisely the arguments used 30 and 40 years earlier > against African-Americans in the military. > > I wonder--Had the term "PC" been around in 1940, would people who objected > to "n*g**r" jokes then have been labeled "PC" as a dismissive term? I > suspect so. > > Tom Dean > > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > > > Not quite in the same league as the Little Red Riding Hood story, I'm > > afraid. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Thomas Dean [SMTP:deantom@MHD1.MOORHEAD.MSUS.EDU] > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 11:45 AM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > > Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood > > > > > > On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > > > > > > > BTW -- regarding the Little Red Riding Hood story; it's a JOKE, > people! > > > > > > > > John Sullivan > > > > > > At the risk of being offensive, I will post the following to make a > point: > > > > > > "What two words do you [if this is being told to a white person] never > > > want to hear coming from a n*g*r? 'Hi, neighbor!'" > > > > > > Hey--It's just a JOKE! > > > > > > Tom Dean > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808051950.OAA0000027414@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> This is my last word on this, too. Last thing I want to be is a language police officer. I brought this up because someone said right here that the words hurt her. On Wed, 5 Aug 1998, Sullivan, John wrote: > I have no clue as to how we got from "The Politically Correct Little Red > Riding Hood" to racist "jokes." Seems like an incredible leap to me. > > Isn't there a question of intent here too? I didn't see any malicious intent > in TPCLRRH; it just made me laugh. I've got more important things to worry > about than to be offended by something as silly as that. Long ago, racist jokes had no "malicious intent," either, but they were nevertheless malicious. The reason I brought this up is that someone a couple of days ago said she was hurt somewhat by some of the content of the TPCLRRH because it made fun of her "alternative family" status. That doesn't seem like that big a leap to me, making fun of someone's sexual orientation to making fun of someone's ethnicity (though, as I implied in my posting, I was trying to be dramatic to make my point). If we can't see or remember the hurt someone explicitly expressed here only a couple of days ago and don't have a clue how we got here, then that's a problem. And that's *the* problem when it comes to the persistence of discriminatory rhetoric--not seeing it. A thread or two on this and the freelance list in the last few days have railed against insensitive things people say about freelancers--how they "don't really work," etc. I'm sure we all could come up with plenty of indexer jokes, and no doubt have heard a lot of them. And I suppose, since being an indexer/freelancer is at least part of the professional identity of almost everyone here, insensitive comments that people make--comments with no malicious intent and/or comments poking fun at someone's livelihood and identity--don't sit too well with the person being "satirized." When it cuts to who *you* are as an individual, words hurt and are offensive. It seems to me a reasonable and kind thing to do to listen to someone who expresses such hurt at words, be careful and thoughtful about being sensitive to what we say and not dismiss those hurtful words as just a joke. > If you're looking for it, you can find something offensive in a Spiderman > comic strip. True. As I said before, I brought all this up not because I was "looking for" offense, but because someone was offended in fact, and it seemed to me that that fact has been brushed under the rug in this conversation. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:46:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: The Politically-Correct Little Red Riding Hood In-Reply-To: <199808051902.MAA12135@pacific.net> Sandy wrote: >Did anyone consider that the point of the Red Riding Hood story may be that >our language is being changed to the point that it will eventually be >impossible to interpret what is being said or written? Me, I'm with George >Carlin -- it's not post-traumatic stress disorder -- it's shell-shock! I realize this is light-hearted, but I do want to offer the following explanation: Post-traumatic stress disorder describes a syndrome that can be triggered by many different contexts, including sexual abuse, kidnapping, and sniper attacks. It describes a predictable set of symptoms. That is why the more complex term. In warfare, sure, it could be called shell-shock, but psychologically the treatment of the disorder is similar, regardless of the origin. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:43:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: looking for an indexing company Hi all, I had an inquiry from a company that is looking for an indexing company big enough to handle 20,000 entries per month. It would be indexing images. They want an established company that can take this off their hands. They say an indexer can handle about 40 images per hour so you can see how many indexers would be needed. This would be the equivalent of database indexing from a controlled term list. Are there companies employing 15+ indexers out there? I said I'd look. Please write to me directly and off the list. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: indexing case studies Hello Everyone, I am wondering about ways to index case studies, specifically when they are appendices to the book. I indexed a book like that recently and I wanted to present how I did it and ask if other people have a different approach to case studies. Basically, I indexed each case separately in detail, then I took subentries which fit under the general discussion in the book and grouped them under the appropriate main headings. Some sample entries follow: Case studies inventory transaction reporting process, 223-229 manufacturing process, 173-192 selling process, 193-217 . . Manufacturing case study determining variables to measure, 176-179 system implementation, 179-184 . . Selling process case study system implementation, 209-211 process map developed, 204-205 operating performance measures, 205-209 . . Implementing performance measures in inventory transaction case study, 225-228 in manufacturing case study, 179-184 in selling process case study, 209-211 . . Determining variables to measure (this is the author's phrase, repeated many times; I had a cross in manufacturing case study, 176-179 reference from "variables to measure, determining" to help people find the heading) in selling process case study, 204-209 Anyway, I hope this is reasonably clear. I'm curious to hear how other people handle cases in books. Thanks, Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: name index page rate Hello everybody: I've been offered a job indexing the names of the authors of technical studies discussed in a multi-volume work: two or three names per page, initials to be picked up from the bibliography, and study numbers appended in square brackets to be included in the index -- clerical work, basically, at .50 or somewhat more per page. I can imagine making money at this rate, but never having actually done such work before, I'd like some feedback on how realistic this may be. Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:08:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: name index page rate I've done name indexes at .45/name and its made a good hourly rate. I think there was a discussion a while ago about scanning the names and then pulling them into an index. The automation might improve the hourly rate, but there's still a lot of proofing for names. They don't come naturally. You could try a sample of 10 pages and see what your hourly rate would be. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 16:14:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: name index page rate At 11:22 AM 8/6/1998 -0700, Michael Brackney wrote: >I've been offered a job indexing the names of the authors of technical >studies discussed in a multi-volume work: two or three names per page, >initials to be picked up from the bibliography, and study numbers appended >in square brackets to be included in the index -- clerical work, basically, >at .50 or somewhat more per page. I can imagine making money at this rate, >but never having actually done such work before, I'd like some feedback on >how realistic this may be. I like Sharon's idea of charging per name rather than per page. I don't think 50 cents per page is sufficient, even if there are only two or three names per page. You still have to pick up the initials and double-check spelling (something that must be done manually and not with a spell-checker program). I have charged that little, but only when I am also being paid a good rate for the actual subject index. My instinct is that I would not do this for less than $1 per page if it was the only part of the job I was going to get. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:04:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: name index page rate I used to index for one academic press publisher and all of their indexes involved separate author and subject indexes. When I started, I thought the author indexes would be a snap and actually costed that part at around $.30/page (bear in mind this was a number of years ago). All of the books were collections of essays; however, being on the same topic, they frequented cited the same authors (the author index was basically a cited author index). The one problem I found that took longer than I anticipated was the inconsistency of references. One author would cite G.S. Brown, another George Brown, and a third S. Brown. Checking for consistency did consume a lot of time. Something to watch for... Charles Anderson At 11:22 AM 8/6/98 -0700, you wrote: >Hello everybody: > >I've been offered a job indexing the names of the authors of technical >studies discussed in a multi-volume work: two or three names per page, >initials to be picked up from the bibliography, and study numbers appended >in square brackets to be included in the index -- clerical work, basically, >at .50 or somewhat more per page. I can imagine making money at this rate, >but never having actually done such work before, I'd like some feedback on >how realistic this may be. > >Michael Brackney > > > >Brackney Indexing Service >134 Kathleen Way >Grass Valley, CA 95945 >530-272-7088 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:24:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: name index page rate Michael, I second Sonsie's suggested rate of $1/page minimum. Yes, it is clerical work, but you have to make some money on it. And it requires great accuracy, which is time consuming. Look at the rate this way. For a 300 page book, the $0.50 per page rate would give you $150. It would take quite a few hours to read through a 300 page book and mark it, and then the picky work begins. Slow ...... very slow ....... to find initials, get it on computer, get study #, etc. Could you do this job, on the hypothetical 300 page book, in less than a couple of days? I doubt it. Look then at a possible 3.5 days, which comes to about 30 hours of work. At $150 for the job, that is $5/hour!! At 20 hours total, you'd only be making $7.50/hour. I hope you'll demand more per hour than that! Clerical or not! Don't let people get away with wages that low when they demand precision. You are a professional, and even at $1/page, the $300 for the hypothetical book would bring you up to $15/hour for the 20 hour job. I think it would take more time than that, which would put it at between $10 and $15 per hour. Even that is bare minimum, as far as I'm concerned. Another factor is having to add the study number in brackets. More nit-picky stuff. More than the usual author index. Bargain hard with these folks. IMHO, they'd have to do better than the rate they're offering you. If you need to back up your negotiation with data, then run a sample, and see how many pages you can do in an hour -- marking or locating the citations, entering data with initials and all, and add a time factor for proofreading and problem solving. When you see how long the sample takes, extrapolate up to the length of the book and you'll be able to figure your real rate of pay per hour. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:53:15 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <04022484586127@domain1.bigpond.com> While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. The French, for instance, are notoriously intolerant of non-French speakers. They also have just about the last European culture which has survived the onslaught of a US-centric world view. I'm not saying that intolerance is a good thing: but we should acknowledge that tolerance comes with a price: if you assume that all points of view are equally valid, then you lose the motivation to defend and pass on the unique point of view that your upbringing and experience has taught _you_. As a citizen of a country where the top 'news' stories often involve British royalty or American celebrities, I sometimes wish that Australians were a little less tolerant of these intrusive cultural values. Jonathan =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Site Construction http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:56:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill Jonathan, I love the idea of having a reason for intolerance...to preserve my "cultural identity." Of course some culturres appear to be more intolerant than others, but I have to take exception to your characterization of the French as intolerant. I think it's just Parisians and the Academy who are intolerant, for the reasons you state so well. On the other hand, having just returned from a trip to rural France, I can report that the rural French are as pleasant and friendly as can be, except for the occasional shop girl! In fact, we found people quite willing to talk to Americans, happy to practice their English (while I stumbled along in my fractured conversational French as well), and eager to know why we had veered off the tourist track into their lives. So, while one can characterize a culture as intolerant, one should be wary of characterizing the people themselves that way. It's an interesting anthropological contradition--that a cultural stereotype is not always identical to the individuals who create and/or use that culture! The "party line" doesn't always adhere. Barbara E Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:56:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steve Chupack Subject: NEWSPAPER INDEXING I have followed with interest the recent postings on newspaper indexing. I work for Special Collections, at the University of Vermont library. One of my responsibilities is indexing the daily Burlington Free Press. 1. Regarding published corrections: I index them unless they are insignificant, from an indexing perspective. I generally replicate, in the subject headings box on the template I am using, the subject headings used to index the original item. And, in the text/content/keyword entry box I also generally replicate at least the first few words from the original item, so the searcher has some idea what the correction is about. I also include the citation of the original item (page, section, column). The "correction" is entered. Finally, in the same box, I include the heading the publisher uses to call attention to the correction. The Free Press uses "Setting it Straight." The reason I include these key words will be clear from my second point........ 2. Software used the past several years to index the newspaper is B/Text Works, WIN 95/NT, version 2.2, by INMAGIC, Inc., Woburn, MA 1801-6357. (718-938-4442). I find it meets our needs very well, although it lacks a spell-checker. Both the on-screen help features and user manual are excellent. Among its features is a key word search function, permitting the indexer , for instance, to locate quickly the original indexed item which needs to be corrected, as described above. 3. The index is posted monthly on the Web, in a partnership we have with Middlebury College and the Vermont Department of Libraries. It may be viewed at http://myriad.middlebury.edu/bfprhd It uses other software, compatible with INMAGIC, and permits searching by either subject heading or key word. Here are my questions: 1. I am exploring the possibility of undertaking a project that would have as its outcome the creation of an index for a newspaper that was not indexed for approximately 50 years of this century. Would recruit and train a small team of indexers, and expect it would be a two or three year project. If anyone out there has successfully (or unsuccessfully) worked on a similar project - even if the index covered only a few years, I would very much like to hear from you. Many difficulties to overcome, of course. Specifically, has anyone found a way efficiently and affordably to convert newspapers on microfilm into a hard copy format, from which indexers could work? 2. I am not aware of a newspaper indexing "SIG" (special interest group) listserv or sub-set of a listserv . If it exists, formally or informally, I would like to join the discussion. Perhaps Index-L is it, and if so, perhaps a few of us may want to identify ourselves, and our particular interests. ( Last time I checked, the American Society of Indexers Web site and discussion group did not specifically have such a SIG). Perhaps other members of ASI and the Society of American Archivists share this interest, but also wonder whether there are enough of us to make the effort wothwhile. Responses to this list, or e-mailed to me directly, would be appreciated. Steve Chupack Special Collections Bailey/Howe Library University of Vermont Burlington, VT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 14:00:40 -0700 Reply-To: rbear@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Bear Organization: University of Oregon Subject: Re: NEWSPAPER INDEXING The difficulty with conversion of newspapers is the 15X24 format. It takes 6 to 8 shots per page and the images eat up massive amounts of memory. Many modern reader-printers have scanning capability but to avoid discouraging patrons with their slowness compared to analog reader-printers, scan at 200 dpi, which is not enough resolution for full-page capture (10X or less). The scanner's TIFF image, even at 24X, or less than half a newspaper page per capture, will also contain images of dust, imperfections in the original, and any residual silver from contact between film and glass, all of which will interfere with text conversion. Papers that were old when filmed, especially papers printed letterpress directly from worn types, will also lack sufficient contrast for a successful scan, and are *particularly* bad, especially for OCR. Unless a commercial provider such as ImageMax offers to do this for you and guarantee results, at a price you can stand to put into the funding request, I might be inclined to request workers in teams of two, one to do raw output from a film reader into a computer by hand and eye, picking out the things that an indexer would highlight, the other to assemble the index, either in ASCII or into an HTML template. -- Richard Bear Coordinator, Microforms Collection University of Oregon Knight Library ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 15:31:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808070456.VAA22622@pacific.net> Jonathan wrote: >While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me >stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the >out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. What I hear you talking about is the need for the less-powerful to preserve identity in the face of the more-powerful. We don't disagree. --Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 20:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Thomas Dean Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808072231.RAA0000024295@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu> On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Victoria Baker wrote: > Jonathan wrote: > >While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me > >stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the > >out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. > > What I hear you talking about is the need for the less-powerful to preserve > identity in the face of the more-powerful. We don't disagree. > > --Victoria Wasn't Jonathan "sticking his neck out" by saying precisely the opposite? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding something. Tom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:24:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Intolerance as a cultural survival skill In-Reply-To: <199808070456.XAA06856@shooter.bluemarble.net> It should be remembered that what Jonathon calls "The French" show even in this day and age some distressing predelictions for cultural genocide when they have the chance, and their political leaders echo with considerable passion Jonathon's dictum on cultural survival. I am on my father's side of Cajun descent. My ancestors, speaking a Brittany Languedoc dialect with structural and vocabulary similarities to Latin not in modern French and quite a few other differences as well, left France before the central government had destroyed the dialects and languages (German in Alsatz and Lorraine, Catalan, etc) that then outnumbered the Parisian dialect. Then as now, Cajuns are known for not just tolerance but enjoyment of cultural diversity, and many other French speakers are not intolerant. It is not at all unusual on a Cajun culture newsgroup for Parisian speakers, often from Quebec, to in ignorance and ill will berate us for our Cajun language. Though the Francophone movement in Quebec is anti-English, its greatest successes seem to be against Hebrew, Indian (both South Asian and First Nations), Chinese, and other minority languages, which are being rooted out of public life. When the language police (an actual and large police force) discovered that some Jewish tombstones have Jewish letters that are taller than the French letters (even if only a word or two is in Hebrew) the top Quebec political leaders said this was a matter of cultural survival for French (ie that they wanted non-survival of Hebrew). The attempts to obliterate First Nation languages of course was the direct cause of the failure of the Meese Lake Accords. I apologize for straying so far from indexing, but I think that this discussion has gone well. I conclude by suggesting that though Jonathan considers that the end ("avoiding a US-centric world view") justifies the means, it does not seem to me that the French in Paris or Quebec remotely can be considered superior to most of Europe or Canada in this regard. Best, Marvant Duhon On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > While we're talking about stereotypes and discriminatory language, let me > stick my neck out and suggest that intolerance of people who are in the > out-group makes good sense for the cultural survival of the in-group. The > French, for instance, are notoriously intolerant of non-French speakers. > They also have just about the last European culture which has survived the > onslaught of a US-centric world view. I'm not saying that intolerance is a > good thing: but we should acknowledge that tolerance comes with a price: if > you assume that all points of view are equally valid, then you lose the > motivation to defend and pass on the unique point of view that your > upbringing and experience has taught _you_. As a citizen of a country where > the top 'news' stories often involve British royalty or American > celebrities, I sometimes wish that Australians were a little less tolerant > of these intrusive cultural values. > > Jonathan > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Site Construction > http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal > Diagonal@bigpond.com >