From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Thu Jan 21 12:17:04 1999 Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 23:40:24 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Ilana Kingsley Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9812C" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:56:43 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Term selection/Travel books When I use a travel book for a country such as New Caledonia or Fiji I am interested in one thing only - where the best snorkelling spots are (I will be interested in the people and countryside no matter where I end up, but my focus is snorkelling). I would LOVE an index that included every mention (and many passing mentions) of the subject. This seems to me to be one case where an electronic search facility would be BETTER (dare I say it) than a human-created index. It does mean, however, that I welcome any attempt made to group activities as in the examples below. The last Lonely Planet Guide I used indexed the general discussion on snorkelling, which at least gave an indication of the general situation in the whole country, and an idea of a few specific places to look. I have never used an index to a travel book to look up a specific place and have always found this a waste as I have been able to use the contents page for the level I was looking at (but I can see how it could be useful). So in my experience as a user of travel indexes the "category of activity" type terms have been much more useful that the apparently more accepted place terms. Glenda (now dreaming again of a tropical island holiday...without a two year old!). Kevin wrote: "Now in addition some indexers also chose to start up "category of activity" type terms like Amusement parks Brighton Beach, 78 or Art museums London, 75 I chose not to do this since I figured the density of terms produced by including all the local place names, famous buildings, etc., would produce the appropriate density of total index, and secondly the overall emphasis seemed to me to be on interesting places to visit in each town and not specifically on any one activity. ..." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:48:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Term selection/Travel books Activity categories ARE useful to the reader unfamiliar with a place, as are museums indexed by types of unusual exhibits (cars, mustards, food, crime, etc.). In my experience, place names and specific sites are also quite useful; for example, the other day my nephew told me that his grandmother (on the maternal side of his family) was descended from people on the island of Sicily who still live in a small town called Petralia Soprana. Since I have a travel book on Sicily, I looked it up--there it was and so I was able to share the information with him. If the town had been indexed only under Norman fortresses, I might not have found anything about it since I didn't know that there were Norman fortresses there. On the other hand, since I am interested in eating typical Sicilian food, I want to see something about that in the index, too. So too, as people are becoming more interested in the actual processing of food in some countries, entries for olive oil or cheese or salami or Parma ham production site tours also might be useful. Cooking schools could be listed, too. These could be entries under "food," "cooking," "cuisine," "diet," etc. It can get more and more convoluted! So it is not an easy call to index travel books, because there can (and should be) be more than just place names in such an index. Space limitations do abound in travel indexes unfortunately, so place names as main headings should take priority. If space is not completely restricted, the key to it all is anticipating what an experienced traveller to the area might want to know and what a nephyte would want to know. I once did a book on parks in Texas and indexed items by place names and also by activities like camping sites, etc. This brings up the general issue of whether or not the indexer should add value to the book by bringing together like items that are not brought together by the author, as in the above example, where camping sites were treated within each park, but not as a chapter in themselves. Each park as a heading would have a subentry with "camping sites" listed, but pulling out "camping sites" and making that a heading allows faster information access for the reader only interested in camping sites in Texas. This is like Glenda's example of snorkeling (love it myself! The Bay Islands of Honduras are great places for this or at least were until Hurricane Mitch destroyed so much there.). Others will probably have other interpretations, but that is where I am at this morning. At 08:56 PM 12/15/98 +1100, Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: >So in my experience as a user of travel indexes the "category of activity" >type terms have been much more useful that the apparently more accepted >place terms. > >Kevin wrote: > >"Now in addition some indexers also chose to start up "category >of activity" type terms like > >Amusement parks > Brighton Beach, 78 > >or >Art museums > London, 75 > > >I chose not to do this since I figured the density of terms produced by >including all the local place names, famous buildings, etc., would produce >the appropriate density of total index, and secondly the overall emphasis >seemed to me to be on interesting places to visit in each town and not >specifically on any one activity. ..." > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:26:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Term selection/Travel books In-Reply-To: <199812151348.IAA06758@transfer.usit.net> First off, is anyone interested in sharing a room in Indianopolis? Contact me off list. Second, I had one call from someone who got my name from ASI, so I assumed they used the directory. I also used it extensively when I had that index I felt I couldn't do and frantically and successfully used the locator to find someone to give it to. Just an anecdote about travel books. I have been indexing a series of travel books, working for the author. They're really vanity press books, but they sell extremely well. In them she mentions every person on her tour, every town she passes through, all the people who helped her out, where she had her hair shampooed. Now, she is very clear that she doesn't expect all the people to be mentioned unless they're a historic figure or had a major contribution other than just "being part of our little group" but she originally wanted every mention of every Place they had been to indexed. In the back of each book in an appendix she puts a detailed itinerary of the tour, and she wanted everything on the itinerary to be indexed. However, say the itinerary lists Big Oak Flat. Interesting name, interesting place, but in the text all you read about it is, "On the way to Chinese Camp we passed through the town of Big Oak Flat. We loved the name." It took every ounce of persuasion to explain that a reader, finding Big Oak Flat in the index, will hope to find some information about the place in the text, such as snorkeling opportunities (sorry, Glenda, couldn't resist) other than that they liked the name. I sometimes find it hard to find any indexable term in her books, so if there is even the minutest factoid about something or someone I latch onto it and it gets indexed. I wonder if such a book even should be indexed, except that here and there there is good info about camping, motorhomes, and sometimes even something about some locations. I'm about to do another one, and I find them extremely enjoyable and very easy to do. I confess that I charge her slightly less than I do other clients, because really I can index her books in about 10 hours and I feel guilty taking what usually ends up being close to a thousand bucks from her, even at 50 cents a page less than my usual. She is prolific and very pleasant to deal with. So anyway, that's my story FWIW. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky & Bob Hornyak Subject: Mouse Alternatives Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before I buy. I got used to using a mouse when I worked in-house on Macs, and find it hard to get away from the thing when I do embedded indexing on PCs at home. Nothing gets me to the spot I want to go faster. However, I am experiencing some elbow pain, and want to find an alternative ASAP. Thanks, Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:52:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE2842.FBF2E1A6 Content-Type: text/plain Becky, At the recommendation of at least one person on this list, I bought a Cirque Wave Keyboard a few months ago. It is like a natural (curved) keyboard but with a toughpad pointing device built-in below the arrow keys. That has really helped my arm and shoulder pain. I just recently bought a Logitech keyboard with built-in touchpad for my home office and like it even better than the Cirque. The touchpad on it allows for fast scrolling either vertically or horizontally. (The newer Cirques may have that feature but I couldn't find one in my local stores.) Good luck. Marsha Lofthouse TargetSmart! The Power of Smart Business http://www.targetsmart.com mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com ------ =_NextPart_001_01BE2842.FBF2E1A6 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Mouse Alternatives

Becky,

At the = recommendation of at least one person on this list, I bought a Cirque = Wave Keyboard a few months ago. It is like a natural (curved) keyboard = but with a toughpad pointing device built-in below the arrow keys. That = has really helped my arm and shoulder pain.

I just = recently bought a Logitech keyboard with built-in touchpad for my home = office and like it even better than the Cirque. The touchpad on it = allows for fast scrolling either vertically or horizontally. (The newer = Cirques may have that feature but I couldn't find one in my local = stores.)

Good = luck.

Marsha Lofthouse
TargetSmart! The Power of Smart = Business
http://www.targetsmart.com
mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com=

------ =_NextPart_001_01BE2842.FBF2E1A6-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:01:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Mesner Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives In-Reply-To: <199812151542.KAA22322@smtp.uky.edu> At 10:38 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or >similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the >Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound >positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before I >buy. Becky, I crippled up my right hand and wrist twice last year and finally concluded that it was the mouse. I bought a "VersaPad" after seeing one in the office of our office manager. I got one to see if I could heal myself and get back to work. Like Bobbi said, it took a couple of weeks to adjust to, but I really have gotten attached to it. I was at the point where I almost could not use my hand and now it is completely healed. The pad **is** an adjustment, but I wouldn't go back now. Besides, it has some neat little things about it that I like, such as just tapping it with my nail to get it to "click." It's different, but I love it. And no pain! Lil Mesner ***************************************************************************** Lillian R. Mesner Lexington, KY 40506-0456 Serials Dept. Phone: 606-257-0500 Ext. 2130 William T. Young Library Fax: 606-257-8379 University of Kentucky Email: lmesner@pop.uky.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives Pain the your elbow (rather than your wrist) may be caused by constantly having to move back and forth between the mouse and the keyboard. You might want to try something like a mouse bridge, which moves your mouse closer to the keyboard so that you don't have to reach all the time. The Typing Injury FAQ Web page at http://www.tifaq.com/mice/accessories.html has pictures and descriptions, as well as info on other repetitive stress injuries. Erika emillen@mcp.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Mouse Alternatives Author: Becky & Bob Hornyak at internet Date: 12/15/98 10:38 AM Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before I buy. I got used to using a mouse when I worked in-house on Macs, and find it hard to get away from the thing when I do embedded indexing on PCs at home. Nothing gets me to the spot I want to go faster. However, I am experiencing some elbow pain, and want to find an alternative ASAP. Thanks, Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:53:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives I'm also thinking about trading in my mouse for a trackball or touchpad, but my current complaint is the *distance* between the keyboard and mouse, not the actual rolling of the mouse. So my question is: can a touchpad or mouse, when purchased separately, be attached to the keyboard in such a way that I wouldn't have to be constantly reaching to the side? The laptop I use has a touchpad below the space bar which works great, but I don't know if I can achieve such an arrangement for my regular keyboard without buying a new keyboard with built-in touchpad. I've always assumed that whatever I bought would be placed next to my keyboard where I now have the mouse, so I wouldn't be gaining anything. Anyone dealt with this? Anne > ---------- > From: Becky & Bob Hornyak > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:38 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Mouse Alternatives > > Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or > similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the > Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound > positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before > I > buy. > > I got used to using a mouse when I worked in-house on Macs, and find it > hard > to get away from the thing when I do embedded indexing on PCs at home. > Nothing gets me to the spot I want to go faster. However, I am > experiencing > some elbow pain, and want to find an alternative ASAP. > > Thanks, > Becky Hornyak, Indexer > bhornyak@iquest.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:28:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives I'm right handed, but have learned to use the mouse with my left hand. It wasn't hard and it has greatly reduced movement between mouse and keypad. Of course where there's heavy typing, I just leave the mouse where it is and use my left hand, along with my right, to type, but there's much less elbow action when my left hand handles the mouse and my right hand works the keyboard. It's also faster. I keep my mouse at the same level as the keyboard so I don't have to keep moving my arm up and down. For the moment, it works for me. Diane Brenner Indexing Services P.O. Box 206 Worthington, MA 01098 413-238-5593 dbrenner@javanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives Anne, I have a small glidepoint and I have it sitting above the numeric pad without a problem. Also since the touch pad does not have to move around the desk top you could also just place it under the keyboard. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 11:53 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'm also thinking about trading in my mouse for a trackball or touchpad, but >my current complaint is the *distance* between the keyboard and mouse, not >the actual rolling of the mouse. > >So my question is: can a touchpad or mouse, when purchased separately, be >attached to the keyboard in such a way that I wouldn't have to be constantly >reaching to the side? The laptop I use has a touchpad below the space bar >which works great, but I don't know if I can achieve such an arrangement for >my regular keyboard without buying a new keyboard with built-in touchpad. >I've always assumed that whatever I bought would be placed next to my >keyboard where I now have the mouse, so I wouldn't be gaining anything. > >Anyone dealt with this? > >Anne > >> ---------- >> From: Becky & Bob Hornyak >> Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:38 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >> Subject: Mouse Alternatives >> >> Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or >> similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the >> Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound >> positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before >> I >> buy. >> >> I got used to using a mouse when I worked in-house on Macs, and find it >> hard >> to get away from the thing when I do embedded indexing on PCs at home. >> Nothing gets me to the spot I want to go faster. However, I am >> experiencing >> some elbow pain, and want to find an alternative ASAP. >> >> Thanks, >> Becky Hornyak, Indexer >> bhornyak@iquest.net >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:15:41 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Term selection/Travel books I suspect that the travel books you are indexing aren't Vanity Press but are being published by either an independent press (self publishing) or by a small press. Big, big differences between Vanity Press and the other kinds of publishing. Vanity Press is not well thought of while the other kinds are very respectable and viable forms of publishing. It's important to appreciate the differences. The books sound quite interesting! Best, Sylvia Coates Rachel Rice wrote: > Just an anecdote about travel books. I have been indexing a series of > travel books, working for the author. They're really vanity press books, > but they sell extremely well. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:09:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Mulvany Subject: Nancy Mulvany: Change of Address I have a new email address: nmulvany@bayside-indexing.com Also, my Web site has been updated and it has moved to: http://www.bayside-indexing.com Those of you who are linking to specific files on my site should test your links with new address. If the link does not work, you can either send me an email message or poke around the site and figure out if the file you are linking to is still there. -nancy Nancy Mulvany Bayside Indexing Service Kensington, CA 94707-1401 (510) 524-4195 (510) 527-4681, fax Email: nmulvany@bayside-indexing.com Reference Books for Indexers =====> http://www.bayside-indexing.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:29:08 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Subject matter, distance from Hi all - How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. I agree with the author's point of view or would not have accepted the project and the technical side of the index itself is going well. But this much intense exposure to an overwhelmingly chilling subject matter -- the growth of the paramilitary movement and the danger it poses-- is definitely disrupting my life. I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very helpful. Then they change the subject. Any suggestions? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? Thank you in advance, Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Term selection/Travel books In-Reply-To: <367644DC.41C8E818@slip.net> Thanks, Sylvia. I believe you're right, the books are self-published, not vanity. Thanks for pointing that out. (And yes, they are interesting and fun books.) Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:52:55 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from When I index psychological topics I always seem to come down with the disease itself. The worst one was the book on psychosomatic diseases. I itched while I worked on the itching chapter, got a headache during the headache chapter and really lost it during the chapter on catatonia! I don't mean to be funny though. Your problem is real. It may help to know that in bringing the topic to the public you are helping to resolve the problem. Maybe you can balance your surroundings a little by reading lovely poetry or listening to soothing beautiful music. I like Elizabeth Barrett Brownings' Sonnets to the Portuguese and Chopin's nocturnes when the going gets rough. Also, I am a big believer in prayer. "To be anxious about nothing, be prayerful about everything" (Source: Notecard from All Saints Convent, Catonsville, MD) Nell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:00:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812151357.r7dc93.4pr.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> Boy do I have to agree -- I did one "case studies in acupuncture" book, and will probably never do one again! Every syndrome known to Chinese medicine was mine for a day.... Jan Wright At 01:52 PM 12/15/98 EST, you wrote: >When I index psychological topics I always seem to come down with the disease >itself. The worst one was the book on psychosomatic diseases. I itched while I >worked on the itching chapter, got a headache during the headache chapter and >really lost it during the chapter on catatonia! > >I don't mean to be funny though. Your problem is real. > >It may help to know that in bringing the topic to the public you are helping >to resolve the problem. > >Maybe you can balance your surroundings a little by reading lovely poetry or >listening to soothing beautiful music. I like Elizabeth Barrett Brownings' >Sonnets to the Portuguese and Chopin's nocturnes when the going gets rough. > >Also, I am a big believer in prayer. "To be anxious about nothing, be >prayerful about everything" (Source: Notecard from All Saints Convent, >Catonsville, MD) > >Nell > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:09:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812151830.NAA21532@mail2.bellsouth.net> Mmmm... I don't mean to sound insensitive or anything, Lillian, but I'm reminded of Lenny Bruce's protest when he was being arrested: "I didn't DO it, man, I only SAID it!" A book is just a book. It's not the reality of the subject you're reading about. In my 30 years as a librarian, I *never* understood the complaints of parents that their children would be corrupted because some book of which they disapproved was on the shelf. Like the book was a magical artifact capable of causing its subject matter to spring into being when it was read. Like they actually believed the old admonition "Speak of the devil...." (I see the same thing all the time in regard to violence --or whatever -- in movies -- as if people who complain about the portrayal of some subject that offends them simply don't understand the difference between a stage play and reality.) Anyway, I've copyedited or indexed books on subjects like the history of Hell, the Scientologists, the history of vivisection, and the Reagan administration, all of which can be pretty chilling. But they were just *books*.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Lillian Ashworth |Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:29 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Subject matter, distance from | | |Hi all - | |How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject |matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. | |I agree with the author's point of view or would not have accepted the |project and the technical side of the index itself is going well. But this |much intense exposure to an overwhelmingly chilling subject matter -- the |growth of the paramilitary movement and the danger it poses-- is definitely |disrupting my life. | |I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they |brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very |helpful. Then they change the subject. | |Any suggestions? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? | |Thank you in advance, | |Lillian Ashworth |ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky & Bob Hornyak Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives Anne and all, The information on the touchpad is that it can be placed anywhere, even in your lap, and can work on its side or upside-down! The Web site is www.glidepoint.com. I appreciate the information that the elbow pain may be due to moving between the keyboard and mouse. I have a desk that doesn't have a convenient space for a mouse. I have tried everything. I would be able to place the touchpad, which is about 5x5 inches, closer to the keyboard and minimize the movement. Since I haven't heard any negative comments, this will probably be my next purchase. Thanks to all who responded. Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: Anne Day To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:03 PM Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives >I'm also thinking about trading in my mouse for a trackball or touchpad, but >my current complaint is the *distance* between the keyboard and mouse, not >the actual rolling of the mouse. > >So my question is: can a touchpad or mouse, when purchased separately, be >attached to the keyboard in such a way that I wouldn't have to be constantly >reaching to the side? The laptop I use has a touchpad below the space bar >which works great, but I don't know if I can achieve such an arrangement for >my regular keyboard without buying a new keyboard with built-in touchpad. >I've always assumed that whatever I bought would be placed next to my >keyboard where I now have the mouse, so I wouldn't be gaining anything. > >Anyone dealt with this? > >Anne > >> ---------- >> From: Becky & Bob Hornyak >> Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group >> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 10:38 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >> Subject: Mouse Alternatives >> >> Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or >> similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the >> Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound >> positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before >> I >> buy. >> >> I got used to using a mouse when I worked in-house on Macs, and find it >> hard >> to get away from the thing when I do embedded indexing on PCs at home. >> Nothing gets me to the spot I want to go faster. However, I am >> experiencing >> some elbow pain, and want to find an alternative ASAP. >> >> Thanks, >> Becky Hornyak, Indexer >> bhornyak@iquest.net >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:41:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <5dd5b482.3676b007@aol.com> I indexed a book on global warming that really freaked me out. I ended up reading everything I could on the subject. I felt worse. I worry about it still. But I try harder to recycle and I follow a lot of the recommendations in that book and others, and I'm much more aware. So I think of it as a positive. I've also done an animal book that had a chapter on cruelty. I can deal with child abuse more easily for some reason. If I weren't indexing that book I would have skipped that chapter. All I can say is, like a loss, eventually things calm down. I don't think it ever leaves you, but maybe that's one of the great things about being an indexer, being "forced" to read stuff you wouldn't have otherwise, and thereby becoming a more interested and interesting person. Dunno if that helps. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:07:13 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812151908.LAA05826@neti.saber.net> >Mmmm... I don't mean to sound insensitive or anything, Lillian, but I'm >reminded of Lenny Bruce's protest when he was being arrested: "I didn't DO >it, man, I only SAID it!" A book is just a book. It's not the reality of the >subject you're reading about. > Michael, I think some people ARE more sensative than others and here-in lies the difference in effects of the written word. Off Subject Aside: I don't believe in hypnotism but sat in an auditorium of thousands of people and listened to Uri Geller, of all people, tell people they couldn't unclasp their hands after counting down from 10 to 1 in Hebrew. Despite my beliefs and rudimentary Hebrew I was one of three people who could not open their fingers! Naomi ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:07:38 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: > Mmmm... I don't mean to sound insensitive or anything, Lillian, but I'm > reminded of Lenny Bruce's protest when he was being arrested: "I didn't DO > it, man, I only SAID it!" A book is just a book. It's not the reality of > the subject you're reading about. Well, that seems a bit oversimplified. God help us if people are not affected by what they read. A book just a book? A strange sentiment from a librarian! Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:46:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from Hmmmm...Michael...your signature line says it all, "It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds." Everyone is different and just because you do not have the same feelings or whatever as the next person does not mean that that person's feelings are not valid feelings. I am frankly amazed that as a librarian for 30 years you have not seen the power that books have to move people and change their lives. Just to illustrate the power of a reading experience, let me tell you about the night I was reading (I'll confess I like mysteries and thrillers!!) KISS THE GIRLS by James Patterson (or whatever the title was): I could not sleep because the message of the book was powerful. And I consider myself a reasonable person with a firm grip on the difference between fantasy and reality. Likewise, to relate this discussion more to INDEX-L and indexing, I recently (and coincidently) indexed a book on breast cancer pathology by the same doctor who diagnosed my mother's recent breast cancer. The book was devastating to me, because of my mother's experience of course and because of the seemingly endless types of breast cancer it is possible to have. At the same time, I was also looking at a reference book on general breast pathology, and the pictures and all the faceless women posing for pictures with their anatomy all affected by cancers and surgeries were just about all I could take. I spent much time meditating on those women and praying for them, including the ones whose biopsy photos (no faces or bodies or anything) were in the book I actually indexed. The caption would read "28-year-old subject with adenoid cystic carcinoma" or "74-year-old subject with lobular carcinoma in situ." For me, these were real people with pain and suffering, and not just terms on the page to be indexed. So, yes, Lillian, distancing yourself from the subject sometimes is hard, if not impossible. At 01:09 PM 12/15/98 -0600, Michael K. Smith wrote: >Mmmm... I don't mean to sound insensitive or anything, Lillian, but I'm >reminded of Lenny Bruce's protest when he was being arrested: "I didn't DO >it, man, I only SAID it!" A book is just a book. It's not the reality of the >subject you're reading about. > >In my 30 years as a librarian, I *never* understood the complaints of >parents that their children would be corrupted because some book of which >they disapproved was on the shelf. Like the book was a magical artifact >capable of causing its subject matter to spring into being when it was read. >Like they actually believed the old admonition "Speak of the devil...." (I >see the same thing all the time in regard to violence --or whatever -- in >movies -- as if people who complain about the portrayal of some subject that >offends them simply don't understand the difference between a stage play and >reality.) > >Anyway, I've copyedited or indexed books on subjects like the history of >Hell, the Scientologists, the history of vivisection, and the Reagan >administration, all of which can be pretty chilling. But they were just >*books*.... > >Mike > >Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services >mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 >http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > > >|-----Original Message----- >|From: Indexer's Discussion Group >|[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Lillian Ashworth >|Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 12:29 PM >|To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >|Subject: Subject matter, distance from >| >| >|Hi all - >| >|How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject >|matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. >| >|I agree with the author's point of view or would not have accepted the >|project and the technical side of the index itself is going well. But this >|much intense exposure to an overwhelmingly chilling subject matter -- the >|growth of the paramilitary movement and the danger it poses-- is definitely >|disrupting my life. >| >|I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they >|brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very >|helpful. Then they change the subject. >| >|Any suggestions? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? >| >|Thank you in advance, >| >|Lillian Ashworth >|ashworth@pullman.com > > ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:57:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from Lillian wrote: << How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. I agree with the author's point of view or would not have accepted the project and the technical side of the index itself is going well. But this much intense exposure to an overwhelmingly chilling subject matter -- the growth of the paramilitary movement and the danger it poses-- is definitely disrupting my life. I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very helpful. Then they change the subject. Any suggestions? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? >> Lillian, you have my sympathy. This has happened to me and it can be pretty intense. If you're just reading a book about something like this, you can stop reading it till you feel better (or forever) or you can skim the most unpleasant parts. If you're indexing it you have to take the subject matter into yourself and process it--there's no avoiding it. This has happened to me several times: once with a book about how awful death row and the death penalty are (with a blow-by-blow description of an execution) and twice with two different editions (!) of a book about the effects violent pornography. In that one, thank goodness, the art (examples of porn) was not reproduced in my proofs, but the captions were enough. Sometimes I think I'm crazy for taking jobs like this, but they tend to be ones I think are important. I want the information out there, no matter how painful it is, and feel good about doing my part. It helps to remember this. Here are my strategies: First I acknowledge that it's going to be hard (get rid of those people who are brushing you off! :-) ). I arrange with my partner to get breaks with her to let me blow off steam or get a hug (depending on the subject). I allow myself frequent breaks to go outside in the air, meditate, exercise, or whatever else will center me. If the book isn't too huge, I try to do it in one long push (so that the subject isn't hanging over my head too long)--I did the second version of the porn book in one day. And afterwards I do something that feels purifying--a bath with a candle did it once--to get the stuff out of my head. The editor of that porn book joked that I should get a hot-tub bonus! Unfortunately, it was just a joke... Good luck! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:39:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from Lillian, I suspect it's an occupational hazard. I don't have a solution, except to try to distract yourself and/or fill your mind with more positive things when you aren't working on the index. Reading poetry or a good novel, praying, taking a walk, getting together with friends to talk about something *else*, doing something nice for someone, and renting a lighthearted comedy video are all ideas that come to mind. I find that the subject tends to absorb my thoughts both day and night. Having a 4-year-old helps distract me during the day, but sometimes I dream (intensely and at length) about the subject of the current or just-completed index. This phenomenon isn't limited to indexing: back when I was in college, I got a job at Waldenbooks. I spent my first eight-hour shift sorting, alphabetizing and shelving books. I spent at least six hours that night doing the same thing -- in my sleep. I haven't yet hit anything I couldn't deal with and get past eventually, but some of the topics we deal with are bound to be pretty grim...unless you can specialize exclusively in something like gardening or computer books! Just try to distance yourself as much as you can, fill your non-indexing time with things that make you laugh or feel joyful, and continue to take frequent breaks. BTW, I find fantasy novels or British mysteries are often a good antidote to the heebie-jeebies brought on by a heavy subject. You are generally assured that good will triumph in the end. It's immensely comforting. Fantasies offer the added benefit of a completely or at least somewhat different world in which to lose yourself. Another suggestion: calming teas and aromas. Lavender essence is supposed to be really helpful in reducing stress and trauma, according to an alternative-medicine book I indexed. And chamomile tea or Sleepytime tea ( a blend of chamomile and mint) is very soothing. Best of luck! Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from Michael Smith wrote, in part: >A book is just a book. It's not the reality of the subject you're reading about. > > In my 30 years as a librarian, I *never* understood the complaints of > parents that their children would be corrupted because some book of which > they disapproved was on the shelf. Like the book was a magical artifact > capable of causing its subject matter to spring into being when it was read. > Like they actually believed the old admonition "Speak of the devil...." (I > see the same thing all the time in regard to violence --or whatever -- in > movies -- as if people who complain about the portrayal of some subject that > offends them simply don't understand the difference between a stage play and > reality.) But Michael, words and ideas *do* have power. During the Renaissance, the growing availability of printed books allowed for more and faster innovation than had been possible before. People didn't have to reinvent machines and architectural innovations, for example; they could read about and see them in black and white; they could duplicate them and improve upon them, and then pass their ideas and innovations on to people all over the continent, instead of just the next town. The same thing applied to scientific discoveries and to philosophies; they could be shared and expanded on, or refuted, thanks to the written *and printed* word. Two-hundred-odd years ago, the ideas put forth by Henry, Jefferson, Franklin, and others had a profound effect on the history of this continent and elsewhere. How far would the American Revolution have gotten without "Give me liberty, or give me death!" and the soaring language of the Declaration of Independence? For an example closer in history, look at the women's movement. If feminists had not written down their ideas, if those ideas had not been disseminated in the form of books and magazines, would the movement have had the success that it did? And if books do *not* have the power to open readers to new thoughts or to change their minds, why are totalitarian societies so loathe to allow freedom of the press? The written word exists to transmit information and ideas. The purpose of much expository writing is to explain the writer's point of view and, if possible, to convince the reader of the rightness of it. If the words do *not* convey anything to the reader's mind, they have failed. Similarly, a fiction writer's task is to create characters and a story, perhaps even an entire world, which is totally believable (at least during the time that the reader is immersed in the book.) If the characters and world do not ring "true," the writer has failed. No, books are not "magical artifacts capable of causing [their] subject matter to spring into being when... read." The mere act of reading a book does not result automatically in total agreement with or conversion to the author's point of view. However, the ideas in a book, if presented skillfully, will at the least provoke thought -- and be remembered. In that sense, a book *is* capable of causing it's subject matter to spring into being. If a reader has never conceived of a particular thing, and then reads about it, he or she can never return to the previous state of ignorance. Another way the written idea affects readers is through repetitive exposure. While one exposure to an idea may not change a reader's mind, repeated exposure may. In other words, if you see (or hear) a thing often enough, you may come to believe it. This is one of the main principles behind advertising, and while some individuals are wise enough, educated enough, independent enough, or cynical enough not to believe everything they read (or hear) in an advertisement, the fact remains that advertising -- i.e., repetitive exposure -- works. (This is one reason some object to the depiction of violence in the media: because it has become so ubiquitous, because there is so much repetition, that there are those who will be affected by it, who will begin to see it as the first or only option for resolving conflict.) Children are more susceptible to new ideas and to repetition than adults, who have had longer to formulate and solidify their beliefs. This can be a positive as well as a negative thing; in Northern Ireland, the young are having an easier time adjusting to and believing in the peace than older adults. They are also more willing to see the "other side" as human beings, rather than the enemy. On the negative side, children are easier targets of advertising, and they are less able to distinguish -- without training -- between reality and "make-believe," especially if the "make-believe" is not announced as such. "Make-believe" -- fiction, whether written or on TV -- is at least as powerful a medium for teaching children concepts as reality is. As a child, I learned more about what it might be like to live in a totalitarian society from Madeleine L'Engle's _A Wrinkle In Time_ than I did from anything I was officially taught. I learned about discrimination, about recognizing good and evil, about courage, about perseverance -- all from fiction. Books do have power. They may not be the reality, but they can reflect reality, evoke reality, and to varying extent, even bring a new reality into being. I don't know that we should ever dismiss something as "just a book." Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:37:17 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Subject matter, distance from Hello all- First, my thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and have been in the same boat. Your advice and comments are greatly appreciated. Michael K. Smith wrote: >Mmmm... I don't mean to sound insensitive or anything, Lillian, but I'm >reminded of Lenny Bruce's protest when he was being arrested: "I didn't DO >it, man, I only SAID it!" A book is just a book. It's not the reality of the >subject you're reading about. Poor Michael! You seem to have been roundly roasted before I even got a chance to reply. But I, too, find it difficult to understand why you think that books *aren't* written to convey a message for change --or at least, some books. The novels of Charles Dickens and Upton Sinclair come to mind, or my own brother's books on the environment (we can see how a similar book impacted Rachel). Books are meant to teach and warn and change what authors feel is unjust. The purpose of ghost stories is, afterall, to scare; books do carry messages. In my case however, it is more than "just a book" in reality. The events that are noted in the book have been and are continuing to take place within a few hundred miles radius of my house. These are more than simply words in a book --they are the television newscasts, the articles --news and feature-- in our newspapers. Cynthia's poignant experience with her breast cancer index is very similar to what I'm experiencing. As an example, there is a section of the book that deals with the murder of a family in Seattle a few years ago. They happened to have been friends of mine. I knew those pages were coming and was prepared for it. That part didn't trouble me; instead it's the overall gloom of the entire premise of the book that I find troubling. And that is, unfortunately, inherent in the subject matter itself. The book I'm indexing is meant to convey a warning, one in which I believe in. And, taken together with the current political scene, the overall message is extremely chilling. Once again, my thanks to all who have responded. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: TRIVIA: Writers might enjoy this. If Joe Burns ever visits the Bay Area I'd like to meet him. -------- Forwarded Message -------- ____________________________________________________________ G O O D I E S T O G O ! (tm) December 14, 1998 - Newsletter #6 ************************************************************ Please visit http://www.htmlgoodies.com. ************************************************************ Part of EarthWeb's Family of Online Services for IT Insiders http://www.developer.com http://www.htmlgoodies.com http://www.datamation.com http://www.intranetjournal.com http://www.gamelan.com http://www.javascripts.com http://www.javagoodies.com http://www.jars.com http://www.roadcoders.com http://www.developerdirect.com http://www.itknowledge.com http://www.itlibrary.com http://www.y2kinfo.com ************************************************************ Access the world's largest and most current collection of online technical books and source code. Get your FREE two week trial today at http://www.dcj.itksub.com ************************************************************ This is the Goodies To Go Newsletter #6! I'll attempt to be as witty as possible on four hours of sleep. I'm tired, but it's a good kind of tired. The past few days have been amazing. Yesterday I was in The Big Apple at my first book signing...ever. It's both an eerie and wonderful feeling sitting behind a desk 20 minutes before a book signing. You're surrounded by people who went to the mat to get it published. There's a pile of books with your face on them sitting there in front of you. The surroundings are strange. You can't stop twiddling with the pen your wife gave you for the occasion. You're sure you'll say something stupid to the first person who comes in the door. And the New York City chapter of Hell's Angels meets right across the street. Really. I could have tripped and landed right on one of the bikes. Then one would have fallen into the other, into the other, into the other, etc., just like in the movies. But none of that happened. The book signing was a success and a bunch of fun. Plus I got the experience of driving myself around New York City dodging cabbies who think your car might look a little better with some bright yellow paint scraped along the side. Here's the thing. If and when you get your own book published just wait until you're faced with a blank page. A great young man named Niki was the first to stop by. He pulled the book out his book bag and laid it there in front of me. I opened my new pen, turned to the banner page, and asked him his name. He told me and I wrote it down with a fancy line afterward. Then...nothing. I went totally blank. I swear. I actually looked at this person and asked "What do you want me to write?" He looked back at me with a downturned eyebrow and said, "Whatever you want." Smart kid. What did I expect? Did I think this person was going to dictate? So I mustered all of my massive brain power and wrote stunning prose that would have been worthy of the Magna Carte. "Thanks for coming" (or words to that effect). Ugh! "Thanks for coming?" Why didn't I just write that having a book was neat-o? Or "have a great summer!" Oh, well. That's a look into the book-signing mind. Niki, thanks for coming. Honestly. You were the first person that took the time to trek into the East Village and ask for an autograph. That memory will be forever ingrained in my brain. I enjoyed looking at your web page. It's a great piece of work employing three seamless frames. And darned if there isn't a link to HTML Goodies right there for all to see. Thanks. More people showed up. I calmed down a bit, and wrote a little more clever iambic pentameter. People told me they've been with Goodies from the beginning and that they learned everything they know from me. One woman told me that HTML Goodies is bookmarked on every computer on the campus of West Chester University (which is outside of Philly that was a long trip, huh?). I hate to sound maudlin, but it's a phenomenal feeling when you know you've built up a few karma points by helping someone learn something new. I didn't get back home from NYC until 2 AM and had to teach a class the next morning at 8:00 AM. But you know what? I can't stop smiling about the whole thing... Next week I'll get back to the technical stuff. I just wanted to get this down on paper while it was still rolling around in my head. I'm even funnier when I'm rested. ************************************************************ To Subscribe to the "Goodies to Go" newsletter, send mail to listserv@earthweb.com and type "SUBSCRIBE GOODIES-L Your Name" in the body of the message. Don't forget to replace "Your Name" with your name! You may leave the list at any time by sending an e-mail message to listserv@earthweb.com and typing "SIGNOFF GOODIES-L" in the body (not the subject line) of the message. Please don't hit "reply" to this message! If you have any problems with your subscription, please send mail to GOODIES-L-request@earthweb.com with a description of the problems you're having. ____________________________________________________________ This newsletter is sponsored by EarthWeb's ITKnowledge. ____________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 23:29:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from << How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. >> I occasionally had this problem when I worked as an abstractor for a legal publisher. My job was to read Texas appellate court decisions and then boil them down into 1 carefully structured sentence: "Where facts, facts, facts, the trial court did/did not err in blah blah blah, because rule of law." That wasn't a problem for your garden variety personal injury, medical malpractice, property cases. But some of the murders were especially heinous, and the child abuse depictions could be graphic. I remember winding up in TEARS over one particular case. (I don't think it helped that I was pregnant while I was doing this.) Fortunately, these cases were the exception rather than the rule. I talked to the other people in my office. We pretty much agreed that we just gutted it out and got through them. I don't think I did my strongest legal analysis for those cases. I was too concerned with just writing the note and getting the heck away from the material. Bonnie Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:17:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sally Klingener Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives In-Reply-To: <199812151542.KAA20931@eliot.oit.umass.edu> The touchpads are very popular with some of my co-workers, but my difficulty is that they are all located on the "right" side of the keyboard and I am left-handed. Because I like the centered trackball on my Dell laptop, I recently bought a Kensington Orbit trackball, the big marble. It can be placed on either side, and your arm doesn't move around when using it. I like it, but I'd still rather have the arrangement that's on my laptop. At the office (my day job) I have an Adesso keyboard with a center touchstick which I hate. Much to sensitive. All this began when I started a case of "mouse shoulder" and at least I haven't had that trouble since. Sally Klingener At 10:38 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or >similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the >Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound >positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before I >buy. ...snip > >Thanks, > Becky Hornyak, Indexer >bhornyak@iquest.net > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu 221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 545-0449 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:55:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: endnotes In a subject/name index, if there is a name which occurs in two different end notes on the same page, what is the best way to include these page references? For one note it would look like 97n without a period after the n. Sincerely, Rick Hurd. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:17:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives In-Reply-To: <199812161222.HAA12127@mail4.bellsouth.net> |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Sally Klingener |Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 6:17 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives | |At the office (my day job) I have an Adesso keyboard with a center |touchstick which I hate. Much to sensitive. All this began when I started |a case of "mouse shoulder" and at least I haven't had that trouble since. | |Sally Klingener My laptop has both a touchpad and a stick shift (or whatever they're called...). You should be able to adjust the sensitivity of the stick, just as you do a mouse. (Check the Control Panel.) My problem with the touchpad is that it's apparently very sensitive to static electricity, or something. As I type, if my thumb comes within half a millimeter or so of the pad, the cursor *LEAPS* across the screen. Not conducive to good touch typing! Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:19:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: endnotes In-Reply-To: <199812161357.IAA01201@mail4.bellsouth.net> You have to treat the notes as *each* a separate entity, not as a bunch of notes on the same page. Use the number for each note: 97n, 98n, etc. IOW, ignore the number of the page the note happens to fall on. Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Rick Hurd |Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 7:56 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: endnotes | | |In a subject/name index, if there is a name which occurs in two different | end notes on the same page, what is the best way to include these page | references? For one note it would look like 97n without a period after the | n. | |Sincerely, |Rick Hurd. | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:05:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: endnotes Michael K. Smith wrote: > You have to treat the notes as *each* a separate entity, not as a bunch of > notes on the same page. Use the number for each note: 97n, 98n, etc. IOW, > ignore the number of the page the note happens to fall on. I think it depends on the publisher. Most of my publishers want the page number the note falls on to be included. Michael, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're envisioning that notes 97 and 98 are appearing on, say, page 210? In such a case, many of my publishers prefer: 210(nn 97, 98). If only one note appears, it would be 210(n97) rather than 210n97, to maintain style consistency. Rick, you should probably check with your publisher to see if they have a preferred style for handling this. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:08:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives > My laptop has both a touchpad and a stick shift (or whatever they're > called...). You should be able to adjust the sensitivity of the stick, just > as you do a mouse. (Check the Control Panel.) My problem with the touchpad > is that it's apparently very sensitive to static electricity, or something. > As I type, if my thumb comes within half a millimeter or so of the pad, the > cursor *LEAPS* across the screen. Not conducive to good touch typing! > > Mike > > Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services I avoided buying a laptop I really liked, for exactly the same reason. But I really hate the touchstick I ended up with, which requires a certain amount of "push" to make work. Whenever possible, I plug in a separate mouse; I keep a mousepad and a mouse in my laptop case. For anyone who finds mice uncomfortable or impossible to use, you should be able to plug in a trackball or touchpad instead. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:23:24 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from Hi everyone, I was really surprised to read about Micheal's views about books not affecting people in any way. Last year I indexed a self-help book on chemotherapy. It was a self published book by the author and he gave me 4 weeks to index it. When I started to read the book, I was having nightmares at night. In my dreams, I actually saw myself going through chemotherapy and I started having the same nightmares for my 7 year old son. In the middle of the night, I used to get up and go to my son's room to see if he was well and alive. I took lots of break to ease the pain I was feeling. I knew that chemotherapy was bad, but I never knew the intensity of its side effects until I indexed this book. The whole book really opened my eyes and taught me that people who go through chemotherapy, go through living hell. Lately, I have been indexing lots of medical books and I am learning about lots of diseases, disorders, their treatments and symptoms. Now I take some breaks to take my mind away and it has become much easier to index these books. Like Kara said, "words and ideas do have power". I agree with her absolutely. If the ideas of the book do not affect a person in any way, that means (in my opinion) the author has done a lousy job of conveying his ideas or the other reason can be that the person who is reading the book, has absolutely no feelings of any kind. Just my opinion on the power of books! Back to indexing. Happy Holidays to everyone. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services Sterling, VA >From owner-index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu Tue Dec 15 14:35:55 1998 >Received: from listserv (listserv.cuny.edu) by listserv.cuny.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <3.FFAB3E1F@listserv.cuny.edu>; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 13:32:37 -0500 >Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:29:08 -0800 >Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group >Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group >From: Lillian Ashworth >Subject: Subject matter, distance from >X-To: index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > >Hi all - > >How do you manage to keep a distance between your own life and the subject >matter of the index? Especially those of you who work alone. > >I agree with the author's point of view or would not have accepted the >project and the technical side of the index itself is going well. But this >much intense exposure to an overwhelmingly chilling subject matter -- the >growth of the paramilitary movement and the danger it poses-- is definitely >disrupting my life. > >I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they >brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very >helpful. Then they change the subject. > >Any suggestions? Has this sort of thing happened to anyone else? > >Thank you in advance, > >Lillian Ashworth >ashworth@pullman.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from I, too, had a similar experience to Manjit's, indexing a book on childhood leukemia. As I progressed through the book, I became more and more emotionally involved. Though I had worked at hospitals [as a researcher!] and, in another life, had "studied" people undergoing chemo for lung cancer, until I indexed this book I never really appreciated the intensity of the disease and treatment processes. Simply put, I didn't have a clue about what was really involved and this book really woke me up. And, though I do not currently know anyone suffering from leukemia, the book helped me understand my friends, relatives and acqaintances who are suffering from equally devastating diseases. The indexing was emotionally hard sometimes, and I, too, had nightmares and worries about my family, but I gained so much in exchange. And I probably would never have read the book or even known it existed if I hadn't indexed it. Count me among those for whom, sometimes words are just words, but often they are so much more. Diane Diane Brenner Indexing Services P.O. Box 206 Worthington, MA 01098 413-238-5593 dbrenner@javanet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:52:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: Subject matter, distance from Manjit Sahai writes: << I was really surprised to read about Micheal's views about books not affecting people in any way. >> Maybe I misunderstood Michael's original post, but I just thought he was saying "don't necessarily believe (or take to heart) everything you read in print." I know I'm extremely skeptical of material I read in books -- probably even more skeptical than ever, now that I've seen more of what goes on within the publishing industry. Erika Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:24:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: KW article correction Hello all ASI-ers and KW subscribers, I'd like to point out an error in my recent KeyWords article--something that snuck in past me and the flock of editors who have worked on this article for the last 112 months!! On page 16, paragraph 4: the terminology should be "The SCIENTIFIC [or TAXONOMIC] (Latin) term for deer...." (not BOTANICAL). That one just snuck in there (probably because most of the scientific terms I contend with are in horticultural books, hence "botanical"). A case of my reading what I was thinking rather than what I was seeing, I'm afraid. Anyway, thanks to everyone who has pointed out this error in the week since the article hit everyone's mailbox. At least I can attest to how quickly people read their copy of KeyWords (as soon as it arrives!). With humble apologies for such a tacky error, Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:46:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Alex O. Trotter" Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from The most difficult book I ever had to index, from the standpoint of chilling subject matter, was about sharks. There was an extended section describing shark attacks in *extremely* graphic detail. It actually made me feel nauseous, as I found myself vividly imagining being chewed up by hungry fish. But as someone else on the list said, it's just a book.... AT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:16:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: endnotes In-Reply-To: <199812161515.KAA04800@mail3.bellsouth.net> Yes, that's the way I used to do notes, too: Page number+n+note number. Takes up a lot of extra space sometimes. But about seven or eight years ago, most of the academic publishers for whom I do a lot of work began instructing me to just use n+note number with endnotes (footnotes are a different problem, and also when numbering starts over with each chapter). Anyway, I'd gotten the impression that style had sort of taken over.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of John and Kara |Pekar |Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 9:05 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: endnotes | |I think it depends on the publisher. Most of my publishers want the page |number the note falls on to be included. Michael, if I'm understanding you |correctly, you're envisioning that notes 97 and 98 are appearing on, say, |page 210? In such a case, many of my publishers prefer: 210(nn 97, 98). |If only one note appears, it would be 210(n97) rather than 210n97, to |maintain style consistency. | |Kara Pekar |jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:32:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from (straying from the subject...) In-Reply-To: <199812161746.MAA14891@mail2.bellsouth.net> |The most difficult book I ever had to index, from the standpoint of |chilling subject matter, was about sharks. There was an extended |section describing shark attacks in *extremely* graphic detail. It |actually made me feel nauseous, as I found myself vividly imagining |being chewed up by hungry fish. But as someone else on the list |said, it's just a book.... | |AT This is a pretty good example of the sort of thing I was trying to explain my take on. Having lived for awhile in an area where shark attacks were a problem, I'm perfectly capable of giving myself the willies from thinking about it. But I can still *read a book* about shark attacks (which I have, actually), and gain useful information from it, without freaking out. There's a difference between reacting to something in your own experience, or in the telling by someone you know who has experienced it -- and being... (I can think of no other word) ...victimized by the content of a book. This strikes me as some sort of sympathetic magic; sorry. I guess I haven't made clear the distinction *I* can see. (If some of you folks are thinking "jeez, he's coldblooded," that's okay -- I probably am. When I was a lot younger, I spent seventeen months in the jungle as lead man on a K.T., and I was good at it because I didn't get emotionally involved with my targets. Although that's something I don't often talk about -- not because it bothers me but because it seems to bother other people, even thirty years later....) But anyway: I'm going to let this thread lie here and expire while I go back to to copyediting a book on the iMac -- which is a quite gruesome enough topic for me! Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:41:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812161024.r7fk5k.2dt.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 07:23 AM 12/16/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I was really surprised to read about Micheal's views about books not >affecting people in any way. I'm sure Michael will correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't get *any* sense of that in his note. He seemed to be saying (and I agree with him) that the effect of books is not automatic, immutable, and inevitable. Certainly, books *can* affect thoughts and behaviors, but don't, simply by virtue of being read, *necessarily* have any effect. If it were so, we would not need prisions. We would just sentence felons to read books about behaving in law abiding ways. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:07:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives Re Laptops Yes, it was a bit of a choice buying a laptop. The one that had the features/price that I wanted didn't have a glidepad, but the joystick control instead. I knew from previous experience that it is a most uncomfortable thing to use -- the pressure required is very hard on my hands. But I bought the laptop nonetheless, because I intended to use an auxiliary mouse. It was worth it to me to get the features I wanted for the price I wanted. I refused to let the type of pointer device make my choice for me. A bit off the topic, but ....... Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:23:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives The touch pad I have is a free standing one and you could put it anywhere you need to. Roberta At 07:17 AM 12/16/98 -0500, you wrote: >The touchpads are very popular with some of my co-workers, but my >difficulty is that they are all located on the "right" side of the keyboard >and I am left-handed. Because I like the centered trackball on my Dell >laptop, I recently bought a Kensington Orbit trackball, the big marble. It >can be placed on either side, and your arm doesn't move around when using >it. I like it, but I'd still rather have the arrangement that's on my laptop. > >At the office (my day job) I have an Adesso keyboard with a center >touchstick which I hate. Much to sensitive. All this began when I started >a case of "mouse shoulder" and at least I haven't had that trouble since. > >Sally Klingener > > >At 10:38 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or >>similar add-on? I read about it in Home Office Computing, and went to the >>Web site, where there are links to other magazine reviews that sound >>positive (of course!), but I would like feedback from actual users before I >>buy. > >...snip >> >>Thanks, >> Becky Hornyak, Indexer >>bhornyak@iquest.net >> >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu >Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu >221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 545-0449 >University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 >Amherst, MA 01003 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:38:40 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Subject selection for Indexer Locator listing Hi everyone, In the subject listing of the Indexer Locator (yellow form), if I select "Health" subject, does this mean that my name WOULD NOT be listed under 'Alternative Medicine' as well as 'Medicine' until I select all three of them. Both these subjects are cross references to 'Health'. Am I correct in understanding this listing method? Thanks for all the help in advance. Manjit K. Sahai RAM Indexing Services ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:04:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: endnotes << In a subject/name index, if there is a name which occurs in two different end notes on the same page, what is the best way to include these page references? For one note it would look like 97n without a period after the n. >> I don't quite understand your page reference system. Usually, when material is being cited in endnotes, either the note number is not specified (rare), in which case the reference would be 97n for notes on p. 97 no matter in how many notes on the same page the item appeared in, or the note numbers are specified, in which case (depending on the publisher's style) it's something like 97(n2). (I try to encourage them to use parentheses and no spaces, so the note number doesn't look like another page reference. They usually are pretty set on their style, though.) For multiple notes on the same page, the style is usually a publisher decision. Some want them listed separately: 97(n2), 97(n4). Some want them put together: 97(nn2,4). Again, the punctuation will also vary with the publisher. In any case, it's perfectly fine to call and ask them how they want it. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:33:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from (snip) > > I take frequent breaks and have tried to find people to talk to but they > brush me off with comments like "you'll get through it" which aren't very > helpful. Then they change the subject. > > Lillian Ashworth Lillian, This "brush off" stuff always makes me mad any more. I was taught to stifle and ignore all the emotional stuff as a child. That has caused me a lot of grief (not to mention what that operational mode did to my parents, which was worse than for me). It has taken many years for me to be able to say, "This is how I feel, it's not bad, it's not good, I don't have to explain why - it is just the way I feel." And I am still working on knowing *what* I feel, since I became an expert on blocking the "unacceptable" feelings. Just acknowledging the emotional impact this book is having on you is a big positive step. You can choose to use "professional detachment" in order to get the job done, but you do not have to ignore your emotional reaction. Some others have given good ideas on how to unwind. When you take a break from this book, accept that you are having an emotionally tough time working on it and give yourself a little TLC. And, as someone else suggested, stay away from those people who discount your feelings! Hang in there! ((( ))) Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:33:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812160505.XAA04843@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Anyway, I've copyedited or indexed books on subjects like the history of >Hell, the Scientologists, the history of vivisection, and the Reagan >administration, all of which can be pretty chilling. But they were just >*books*.... Mike, OK they're just books, but they're still (mostly) about events that happened--to real people. Words do have the power to evoke emotions, or so the poets tell us. I hope you're not suggesting that you can, for example, read a newspaper article about the death toll from an earthquake and toss it off because, after all, it's just a newspaper. If you *still* think words are powerless, try revisiting the concept of "doublespeak" in _1984_. To return to Lillian's question, though, I can definitely relate. If I understand you correctly, you're talking about empathizing. The flip side of this occupational hazard is that what you're feeling has a humanizing effect. To the extend that these books can move you as they do, you're more human, IMO. A few months ago, I indexed two books in a row on massacres. I cried a lot during those projects, but I learned a lot from the content, too, and I'm not sorry I accepted those projects. OTOH, I would probably have to turn down books on the Holocaust because I feel too close to the subject. I hope you find something to soothe yourself with during breaks. For me it's ballroom dancing (even by myself if need be) or watching a Keanu Reeves movie. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:53:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Mouse Alternatives In a message dated 98-12-15 10:42:30 EST, you write: << Has anyone used the Cirque Cruise Cat touchpad alternative to the mouse or similar add-on? >> I have used three brands of touchpad, including the Cirque Touchpad, a model older than the Cat. I love every touchpad I have tried, except one built into the lower right corner of a keyboard. I had to work that with my thumb to avoid pain. The regular touchpads took me less than an hour to adjust to, possibly because the first one I tried had a very good tutorial. My husband finds his hard to control on very humid days. He would rather use DOS and dispense with the rodent entirely. For me, the placement of the pad is what determines whether or not I experience discomfort. The best place is just below center of the keyboard, where many laptop computers put them, or right in the center of the keyboard, which is only possible with one very weird keyboard that splits in the center and, I believe, one ergonomic keyboard. www.surplusdirect.com often has interesting keyboards and good sales on touchpads. I bought a touchpad for $9 there. My best mouse alternative is to learn keyboard commands whenever possible. Every time I drop down a menu I try to memorize the Ctrl + (letter) alternative. I use Alt + (letter) to access the menu, of course. I use the touchpad primarily for graphics. Good luck, Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:13:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Subject selection for Indexer Locator listing In-Reply-To: <199812162139.NAA13429@pacific.net> Manjit asks: >In the subject listing of the Indexer Locator (yellow form), if I select >"Health" subject, does this mean that my name WOULD NOT be listed under >'Alternative Medicine' as well as 'Medicine' until I select all three of >them. Both these subjects are cross references to 'Health'. > >Am I correct in understanding this listing method? That is correct; your name will appear only in the categories that are checked. Btw, "alternative medicine" does not cross-reference to "health," but "medicine" does. Both "medicine" and "alternative medicine" are cross-referenced from "health." I deleted a number of the subject areas that were listed last year, because I felt that I should not, for example, have to use two of my choices on "environmental science" and "ecology" in order to cover the environment as an area. And I did not think that "foreign policy" and "international relations" required separate abilities from an indexer, so I combined those two categories, as I did several others of like nature. I did leave in subject distinctions when there are true distinctions, and the distinctions in the medical field (all cross-referenced under medicine) are, I think, true ones (but I could be wrong). I'm not so sure that sports medicine needs its own separate subject heading, but it was on the form last year and I did leave it. (And btw, I did seek advice and approval from the ASI Board and others.) I would like feedback (for use in next year's Locator) about further changes that could be made to the categories (including "medicine"), as I still think there may be too many. However, it is ^not^ possible to change the subject categories (or anything else that occurs on the form) for this year's Locator. Thank you. I would like to suggest that further specific questions about the Indexer Locator be directed to me privately, because this is ASI business and there are many on this list for whom this does not pertain. However, if others feel that the questions and answers are of general interest to all U.S. indexers (and therefore a sizable chunk of index-l's membership), feel free to ignore this request. Best, Victoria Baker Chief cook and bottle washer, Indexer Locator ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:04:12 -0800 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: KW article correction There may have been a vocabulary error in Barbara Cohen's article in the latest Key Words, but that doesn't detract at all from the sheer wonderment I felt reading it. THIS is meat for indexer's souls--sorry about the mixed metaphors. What an incredible learning experience for both new and experienced indexers! I urge everyone to read it. Elinor Lindheimer Mendocino, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:35:50 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from Hi all, It seems to me that there is an interesting division here: gender. As I remember, two men have posted "its just a book" type messages and all the women have related very vivid experiences they have had with the problem. I think this reflects a basic difference in how men & women handle emotions (and I am speaking *in general*). The men seem to be able to separate, or detach, themselves from the subject matter of the books more readily than women. (I am not sure that this is really beneficial in the long run, but it certainly helps them to get the job done.) Women tend to take their emotional reactions more seriously *and* are also more likely to express them. (This can certainly be a handicap while trying to get the job done.) I am not making any judgements on which method of coping is "better." They both have handicaps and benefits. Please forgive the psychoanalysis, but I thought this thread has been very interesting and the difference in each person's "take" on the subject fascinating. Ann (packing up my couch for now) Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:46:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from In-Reply-To: <199812171139.r7ictc.8b9.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 11:35 AM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi all, > >It seems to me that there is an interesting division here: gender. As I >remember, two men have posted "its just a book" type messages and all the >women have related very vivid experiences they have had with the problem. I don't think you have enough data points to make that conclusion. I'm one of the two, and the only point I was trying to make is that someone was misinterpreting Michael's original post. Just out of curiosity, what's the male/female ratio on this list? What percentage of contributions would you expect from each gender, based solely on makeup of the group? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:07:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Subject selection for Indexer Locator listing At 10:13 PM 12/16/98 -0800, you wrote: >Manjit asks: >>In the subject listing of the Indexer Locator (yellow form), if I select >>"Health" subject, does this mean that my name WOULD NOT be listed under >>'Alternative Medicine' as well as 'Medicine' until I select all three of >>them. Both these subjects are cross references to 'Health'. >> >>Am I correct in understanding this listing method? > >That is correct; your name will appear only in the categories that are >checked. Btw, "alternative medicine" does not cross-reference to "health," >but "medicine" does. Both "medicine" and "alternative medicine" are >cross-referenced from "health." > >I deleted a number of the subject areas that were listed last year, because >I felt that I should not, for example, have to use two of my choices on >"environmental science" and "ecology" in order to cover the environment as >an area. And I did not think that "foreign policy" and "international >relations" required separate abilities from an indexer, so I combined those >two categories, as I did several others of like nature. I did leave in >subject distinctions when there are true distinctions, and the distinctions >in the medical field (all cross-referenced under medicine) are, I think, >true ones (but I could be wrong). I'm not so sure that sports medicine >needs its own separate subject heading, but it was on the form last year >and I did leave it. (And btw, I did seek advice and approval from the ASI >Board and others.) I would like feedback (for use in next year's Locator) >about further changes that could be made to the categories (including >"medicine"), as I still think there may be too many. However, it is ^not^ >possible to change the subject categories (or anything else that occurs on >the form) for this year's Locator. > >Thank you. I would like to suggest that further specific questions about >the Indexer Locator be directed to me privately, because this is ASI >business and there are many on this list for whom this does not pertain. >However, if others feel that the questions and answers are of general >interest to all U.S. indexers (and therefore a sizable chunk of index-l's >membership), feel free to ignore this request. > >Best, >Victoria Baker >Chief cook and bottle washer, Indexer Locator > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:12:36 -0600 Reply-To: shellybourassa@execpc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shelly Bourassa Subject: subject matter, distance from This is a plug for emotions in indexing and may be a little off from the original intent of this thread.  There is too much "detachment" in society.  I believe that coming to terms with your emotions over a job is more of a strength.  You are admitting to yourself that a particular book makes you feel a certain way, but you can cope with it and move on.  Your work shouldn't suffer for it.  Those who detach are denying how they feel.  All of us feel something about the books we read (we are deluding ourselves if we doubt that), but we have become so good at stuffing those feelings away that we aren't even aware we are doing it.  Do you know how many health problems result from this practice?  Yet all of us do this to some degree.  The problem is that our culture highly values logic (and "rationality") over emotion (and intuition and creativity) when these things should be allowed to compliment each other more fully.  When both sides of your brain are in synch, your work is enhanced, not diminished.  You have a balanced perspective.  As a chemist, my work relied upon certain laws and equations, BUT I had to be emotional, intuitive, and creative in order to make progress.  The more angry, excited, satisfied I was with my work, the more motivated and productive I was.  Would Einstein have developed quantum mechanics and all of his famous theories without intuition, imagination, and enthusiasm?  Certainly not, because those theories were so unconventional to the "normal" way of thinking.  I am not an eloquent writer, so I hope this makes sense.

I encourage those who are affected emotionally by the books they are indexing to stay centered.  Don't stuff those feelings, accept what you feel without shame or guilt, learn ways to cope (there have been some excellent suggestions on this list), and know that your work will be better for it.

Shelly Bourassa ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: psychology of indexing OK, I've got a few questions by way of not working on my index (Psychological perspectives on Jewish Tradition, absolutely fascinating, but I need a break). But first let me add to Elinor's praise of Barbara's article. I always get a lot out of the KeyWords articles, but that was especially interesting and helpful to me. I hope you'll do more, Barbara. If you want to pick on one of mine, I'd be very glad, and can take a full-blown criticism, good and bad. Questions: There seems to be a trend away from the use of prepositions altogether unless required for clarity. Most of my clients have asked me not to use them. I think we discussed this here before, but of course I can't remember what we said about it. Is there a difference between scholarly vs. trade books? I feel like I want to just trim them out whenever possible. My older indexes look very cluttered and inelegant to me now. Will I be inconsistent if I don't use them unless there's a clarity issue? Is it all or nothing? Also, what's the current thinking on initial caps? I find I don't want them (except of course for proper nouns and book titles, etc.). Again, it seems to me easier to read and less cluttered looking. Only one of my clients now likes initial caps. I also remember a heated discussion on this, but it was a while ago and thoughts might have changed again. Regarding recipes in non-cookbooks. I'm reading (not indexing) a book about blood types and the proper diet for them. The index has an entry for recipes that xrefs me to See Meal planning and recipes; specific recipes. Under Meal planning (note the initial cap) one finds subentries by blood type with a See also specific recipes. Problem is, how am I sposed to know the names of the specific recipes so I can find them? I must scan the entire index? I can easily find the ones for the specific blood type, but what if I can't remember which type a recipe was for, or what if I want all the veggie recipes? My question is, am I being overfussy? Maybe there was a space limitation. Maybe most readers will only want the recipes for their own blood type. If I had written the index, I'm pretty sure that without a space limitation I would have listed all the recipes by name under the main entry for recipes. I wouldn't have broken them down further though, such as by ingredients, as it's not a cook book. Would it have been an error to list them all under recipes? OK, last question. I realize it's That Time of Year, but I am suffering a bit from loneliness. I have 2 indexes this month which is one more than I usually have, so I've been home a lot, plus my job (my full time job) is very solitary as well. I only go in to the office maybe 1 or 2 times in a 2-week period, and when I am there I sit alone in an office unless there's a crisis and then I can go out and see some crazy people. A lot of the time I'm on call from home. In January my schedule will be changing so that I will never be going into the office at all. I am a loner by nature and really hardly ever feel lonely, but I'm feeling it pretty strongly right now. I do miss my cat Alex who died in September, and Christmas day is the anniversary of the death of another of my cats, so that partly explains it. But I think it's mostly that I'm home so much, alone, and so little contact with others. I probably sound pretty pathetic, but I wondered if others are in the same boat and how do you handle it? My usual techniques aren't working. OK, well, thanks for listening, Rache Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:55:45 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HMCMURRA@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Wrist and shoulder typing injuries Just fyi for everyone who suffers any type of pain when typing: 1) new book by Penney Kome (Univ. Toronto Press - can special order through Barnes and Noble) called the "wounded workers" -- go by Penney's name when ordering because the title on file is different (working wounded or something) -- book is about politics of musculoskeletal disorders like carpal tunnel and RSI's 2) Also, if you have pain be aware that some cases of carpal tunnel lead into reflex sympathetic dystrophy, where the sympathetic nervous system at the spinal root level starts to grow permanent different new connections (short-circuiting the limb); and, that this can spread so that other parts of the body are affected. I got tested (there is a test) and now am being correctly treated for RSD. A canadian RSD site listed CTS as the fourth leading cause of RSD these days. 3) So, pace your computer hands-on work with Voice recognition if possible to give yourself micro-breaks. If you hurt, pay attention to it And, please spread the word to other computer workers everywhere; because the problem is very real and our newspapers/media are not covering it well. thanks, Heather ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:34:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "W. Nadine Kruger" Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from Hi, all... Not really wanting to add to the number of responses on this subject :), as I think the point has been made... but here is a vote from a female who is detached and logical (sometimes?) and doesn't really "connect" to the subject matter. Call it the robotics of work....... W. Nadine Kruger Database Indexing, Lexicography, Proofreading, and Music Trivia "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."--Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:44:46 -0800 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: psychology of indexing Rachel brought up a crucial issue to indexers--and to all who work alone. What do you do when you have so much work that you don't have time to do the things that help alleviate loneliness and enrich your life--i.e., volunteer in the community or take a course or hang out with family or friends? How can indexers manage jobs--and clients--to allow themselves to "have a life?" Email and Fed Ex seem to have shortened the time in which we are expected to complete our jobs, rather than affording us more time to do them in. I think the business world as a whole suffers from a lack of perspective on what's really important in life. If concepts of exceptional customer service were extended to include exceptional personnel policies, maybe schedules could be lengthened to allow all the various workers of a company to be seen by management, and to treat each other, as whole persons, with lives beyond their computer screens. I am lucky that the burnout caused by just such problems led me to take a low-paying job at Little River Inn, where such policies are in place and where schedules are arranged to allow for family obligations and community activities. (Unfortunately, because the pay is so low I still take freelance jobs to make up the money--which takes away from the time. It's hard to have it all!) Enough ranting. Happy Holidays to everyone! Elinor Lindheimer Mendocino, CA elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:24:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from I think what we're seeing here is a difference in personality types, not necessarily gender. If any of you are familiar with the Myers-Briggs tests, for instance, one of the categories that they test for is Thinking vs. Feeling. That does NOT imply that the two are mutually exclusive, but instead measures how people tend to process information. In very general terms, men tend to score higher on the Thinking side and women on the Feeling, but I'm a woman and scored off the scale on the Thinking side, so it's not an exact measurement! I've followed this thread with interest, too, because the responses outline so clearly the different response types! -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:43:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: psychology of indexing 1) Prepositions: Our practice is to eliminate them unless absolutely necessary for clarity. Certainly don't begin lines with them (I've seen it and it does look cluttered). I agree that fewer are more elegant looking. 2) Initial caps. No opinion. I've seen with and without and to me it's just a style thing. Whatever the publisher wants. 3) See more specific topics throughout this index. This is a pet peeve of mine. I don't think that this should EVER be used as an entry because all it says to the index user is, "Think harder." If that's all that's going to be there, just don't put in an entry! I agree that the index you're looking at sounds frustrating to use, which means that it is obviously not a very good index. 4) Loneliness. That's always a tough one. An obvious solution is to go the local veterinarian or shelter and get another cat, which will certainly keep you occupied and keep you company, but I know that that's a big decision. I have tried a variety of things: Reading good books that I have been putting off, keeping a journal, writing letters to my friends. I found the greatest comfort by seeking out and joining a church (it took me about a year and a half of visiting around until I found one that I really liked). It gave me someplace to go at least once a week that wasn't work-related, expanded my circle of local friends and acquaintances as well as getting me back in touch with my spiritual side. It helps that my church includes a vibrant Sunday School class that is in a discussion format, so I got to jump in and debate social and theological issues right away, which is fun (for me, anyway). I highly recommend it-- sounds corny, but it works. And incidentally, you don't have to join-- a friend of mine regularly attends a Bible study group with a declared atheist-- he just comes for the friendship and debate. Keeps everyone on their toes! :-) Whatever your religious bent, you should be able to find something. I actually found out about my church on the Internet, so you never know! Good luck. I know it's tough. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:12:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from I had the pleasure of indexing the biography of the educator Mina P. Shaughnessy. I knew at the outset that she was no longer alive, but when I reached the poignant description of her death I cried for quite a while. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:12:33 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: psychology of indexing On 12/17/1998 3:43 PM Wright, Sharon F. wrote (in part): >1) Prepositions: Our practice is to eliminate them unless absolutely >necessary for clarity. Certainly don't begin lines with them (I've seen it >and it does look cluttered). I agree that fewer are more elegant looking. I agree in principle that the less clutter the better. Still there are times when a leading preposition is necessary for clarity. Perhaps: books before Gutenberg after Gutenberg or: Bloom in love out of love Certainly we could agree that a trailing preposition is also occasionally necessary. For instance: Apaches massacres of conveys an entirely different meaning than: Apaches massacres by Craig Brown (with apologies to any Apaches on the list) ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:19:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: psychology of indexing Point taken. Those would definitely fall into the category of "absolutely necessary for clarity." -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Brown [SMTP:lastword@I1.NET] > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:13 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: psychology of indexing > > On 12/17/1998 3:43 PM Wright, Sharon F. wrote (in part): > > >1) Prepositions: Our practice is to eliminate them unless absolutely > >necessary for clarity. Certainly don't begin lines with them (I've seen > it > >and it does look cluttered). I agree that fewer are more elegant > looking. > > I agree in principle that the less clutter the better. Still there are > times when a leading preposition is necessary for clarity. Perhaps: > > books > before Gutenberg > after Gutenberg > > or: > > Bloom > in love > out of love > > Certainly we could agree that a trailing preposition is also occasionally > necessary. For instance: > > Apaches > massacres of > > conveys an entirely different meaning than: > > Apaches > massacres by > > > Craig Brown > (with apologies to any Apaches on the list) > > > ===================================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword > (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 > ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:37:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: prepositions Rachel wrote (Rachel, I'm addressing each question separately since they're likely to turn into different threads): << There seems to be a trend away from the use of prepositions altogether unless required for clarity. Most of my clients have asked me not to use them. I think we discussed this here before, but of course I can't remember what we said about it. Is there a difference between scholarly vs. trade books? I feel like I want to just trim them out whenever possible. My older indexes look very cluttered and inelegant to me now. Will I be inconsistent if I don't use them unless there's a clarity issue? Is it all or nothing? >> Well, as I say in my workshop, prepositions are a big source of dispute! So here's my opinion and experiences. To start with, if your clients are telling you clearly what you want (in this case, minimizing prepositions) then do that. I think that the most important two things in wording subheadings are clarity and consistency. I usually try to minimize preps unless they're needed for clarity, and then I put them in. This means that some subheads have them and some don't, and I think that's okay. I also find differences depending on material and type of book. Textbooks and, especially, technical manuals, need to be as spare as possible in style; their topics usually lend themselves to fewer prepositions. Indexes for scholarly books are appropriately more narrative in style (just like the texts) and therefore can have (and often need) more prepositions, as you express and link complex concepts. Beyond that, it's a matter of personal style (and, as I said, following any guidelines your publisher gives you). Like you, I'm using fewer these days than I used to. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:39:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: initial caps Rachel wrote: << Also, what's the current thinking on initial caps? I find I don't want them (except of course for proper nouns and book titles, etc.). Again, it seems to me easier to read and less cluttered looking. Only one of my clients now likes initial caps. I also remember a heated discussion on this, but it was a while ago and thoughts might have changed again. >> I've refrained from having an opinion about this one, since I've literally never gotten to make the choice or even a recommendation. I have many more clients now who like the no initial caps style, and I've finally gotten used to it (partly because I started indexing with no initial caps and then adding them at the end with Macrex, which saves a bunch of shift-keys and other extra time). But I still like main heads with initial caps. It's probably just familiarity. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: psychology of indexing In-Reply-To: <199812171646.r7iutc.606.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 04:43 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >2) Initial caps. No opinion. I've seen with and without and to me it's >just a style thing. Whatever the publisher wants. Actually, there is a valid reason *not* to use them. It's the same principle that governs typing everything in upper case: the human eye keys on differences in shapes when reading printed text and caps reduce the variability in shape. Consider the difference between PARALLEL and parallel. Draw a line tighly around all the letters and the former version gives you a rectangle. The latter gives an irregular shape. Thus PARALLEL and PARAGRAPH have the same overall shape, whereas "parallel" and "paragraph" are different. When scanning an index that consists of both simple nouns and proper names, the use of appropriate mixed case in the initial letters gives more visual cues than the use of all initial caps. Then there is the problem with many computer books were terms are case sensitive, begin with a lower case letter, and take on another meaning when shown with initial caps. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:06:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: psychology of indexing In-Reply-To: <199812171646.r7iutc.606.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 04:43 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: > >4) Loneliness. That's always a tough one. An obvious solution is to go >the local veterinarian or shelter and get another cat, which will certainly >keep you occupied and keep you company, but I know that that's a big >decision. I work with local animal rescue groups and provide foster care for homeless cats awaiting adoption. I currently have five in my office. You get the company of the kitties without all the responsibilites and you get to meet the folks in the animal rescue group. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:03:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: An Amusing Tale [NO CATS THIS TIME] I suppose this is "for" musicians but seems sufficiently funny in general to forward to the group. Dave T. -------- Forwarded Message -------- August, 1998, Montevideo, Uruguay: Paolo Esperanza, bass-trombonist with the Simphonica Mayor de Uruguay, in a misplaced moment of inspiration decided to make his own contribution to the cannon shots fired as part of the orchestra's performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture at an outdoor children's concert. In complete seriousness he placed a large, ignited firecracker, which was equivalent in strength to a quarter stick of dynamite, into his aluminum straight mute and then stuck the mute into the bell of his quite new Yamaha in-line double-valve bass trombone. Later, from his hospital bed he explained to a reporter through bandages on his mouth, "I thought that the bell of my trombone would shield me from the explosion and instead, would focus the energy of the blast outwards and away from me, propelling the mute high above the orchestra, like a rocket." However, Paolo was not up on his propulsion physics nor qualified to use high-powered artillery and in his haste to get the horn up before the firecracker went off, he failed to raise the bell of the horn high enough so as to give the mute enough arc to clear the orchestra. What actually happened should serve as a lesson to us all during those delirious moments of divine inspiration. First, because he failed to sufficiently elevate the bell of his horn, the blast propelled the mute between rows of players in the woodwind and viola sections of the orchestra, missing the players and straight into the stomach of the conductor, driving him off the podium and directly into the front row of the audience. Fortunately, the audience were sitting in folding chairs and thus they were protected from serious injury, for the chairs collapsed under them passing the energy of the impact of the flying conductor backwards into row of people sitting behind them, who in turn were driven back into the people in the row behind and so on, like a row of dominos. The sound of collapsing wooden chairs and grunts of people falling on their behinds increased logarithmically, adding to the overall sound of brass cannons and brass playing as constitutes the closing measures of the Overture. Meanwhile, all of this unplanned choreography not withstanding, back on stage Paolo's Waterloo was still unfolding. According to Paolo, "Just as he heard the sound of the blast, time seemed to stand still. "Everything moved in slow motion. Just before I felt searing pain to my mouth, I could swear I heard a voice with a Austrian accent say "Fur every akshon zer iz un eekvul un opposeet reakshon!" Well, this should come as no surprise, for Paolo had set himself up for a textbook demonstration of this fundamental law of physics. Having failed to plug the lead pipe of his trombone, he allowed the energy of the blast to send a super heated jet of gas backwards through the mouth pipe of the trombone which exited the mouthpiece burning his lips and face. The pyrotechnic ballet wasn't over yet. The force of the blast was so great it split the bell of his shiny Yamaha right down the middle, turning it inside out while at the same time propelling Paolo backwards off the riser. And for the grand finale, as Paolo fell backwards he lost his grip on the slide of the trombone allowing the pressure of the hot gases coursing through the horn to propel the trombone's slide like a double golden spear into the head of the 3rd clarinetist, knocking him unconscious. The moral of the story? Beware the next time you hear someone in the trombone section yell out, "Hey, everyone, watch this!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Becky & Bob Hornyak Subject: psychology of indexing Rachel and all, Re: the lonely life of an indexer. I, too, am pretty much of a loner, but glad I had a circle of friends before I went into indexing full-time. I make it a point to schedule time to meet for dinner or lunch with folks. I also have a friend who has e-mail and works at home, and she has become my "water cooler" buddy. We didn't correspond much before I started working at home, but it's regular contact now. I have gotten to know her much better. A small group of local indexers has started meeting about every two months for a meal, and that has been a real boost. I refer to it as the "Indexers' Support Group". I have two cats, and it does make a difference when they're both in the room with me. I would encourage you to get another cat. Sometimes it feels as if there will never be a pet to replace the one you've lost, and there won't be, but there will be a different one to get to know and love. Best wishes to you as you deal with trying times. Becky Hornyak, Indexer bhornyak@iquest.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William G Meisheid Subject: Re: psychology of indexing Re: Initial caps I would agree witht the ability to differentiate terms better when they are not used. This is especially significant online where readability is lower. There is an access maxim that people will scan first, parse second, and read third. Leading caps tends to forcespeople to read since for the reasons others have stated it reduces the ability to scan and parse. Reading slows access down tremendously. A few thoughts from the rim... ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:31:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: psychology of indexing An interesting thread. I think loneliness and the need for companionship during the course of a workday and workweek is real for all of us who work in a solitary environment like a home office. With no water cooler ........ That we feel this, and the fact that we discuss it in our group adds credence to the very basic need that it is ... and it serves as a reminder to all of us to HAVE A LIFE. I myself am prone to index, index, index. I love what I do, and I get caught up in it. I frequently work too long and accept too many projects, only to suffer later, wishing I could be "out there" doing other things among people. We all have to work hard not to be too much alone with our work. Life is more than indexing, as satisfying and stimulating as it is. On another "note" -- sometimes I find that what I think is loneliness is more a lack of stimulation, and that's where music comes in. I went through this just today. It has been a very productive day of indexing a not-too-difficult book. Lots of good work. Really plowing through the book. But it was too quiet, and I kept getting up and wandering around, looking for ... what? A drink? TV? Food? ???? Problem solved: I put on some good CD's, and I worked merrily from then on. It was a lack of stimulation more than loneliness. I don't think before today I had thought about all the sensory stimuli present in a normal office environment -- we "hear" sounds even if they are not "our" sounds, or "for us." Phones ring, a voice here and there, people walk by, etc. I guess the moral of the story is that we need to replicate this in our home office environment, by adding sensory stimuli, and not working in a "sterile" environment, as it were. Those of you who have animals at home probably don't have as much of a problem with this, I suspect. You can tell I don't have either kids or pets in the house. So let's hear it for CD's, and for staying in touch with our own needs and being stimulated as we work! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:19:10 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: psychology of indexing (lonely) Rachel wrote: > I am a loner by nature and > really hardly ever feel lonely, but I'm feeling it pretty strongly right > now. I do miss my cat Alex who died in September, and Christmas day is the > anniversary of the death of another of my cats, so that partly explains it. > But I think it's mostly that I'm home so much, alone, and so little contact > with others. Rache, if a cat would help, I have a surplus - just send me a shipping address! Seriously, I don't know much about the short-term solution for right this moment, but I have a couple of activities to get my people-contact quota. (A little goes a long way for me too.) A big one is a weekly yoga class. People come & go, but a core group tends to stay for a longer time. One person started the same time I did - over 2-1/2 years ago. And the instructors are a constant too. Also, I call (and have lunch with sometimes) two people who formerly worked with me whose company I enjoy. I don't hear from them often, but they are people I can call when I need a little company. I also do a tiny bit of volunteer work at the public library & so have a couple of acquaintances there. I do have a 30+ min. drive for any of these activities, so I make those trips to town my errand days also. And I should also mention Index-l. I know there are opportunities to help out with programs to get toys to needy kids & provide meals for those in need - I have heard that can be a great way to counteract the holiday syndrome, but have no experience myself. Maybe somebody else on list has done something like that. (If purrs and cuddles could be e-mailed, my kitties would send you some. Consider yourself shed upon!) ;-) Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 17:19:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Dawson Subject: FW: Copyright Information for Indexers 8-) Copyright Explained: When you write copy you have the right to copyright the copy you write, if the copy is right. If however, your copy falls over, you must right your copy. If you write religious services you write rite, and have the right to copyright the rite you write. Very conservative people write right copy, and have the right to copyright the right copy they write. A right wing cleric would write right rite, and has the right to copyright the right rite he has the right to write. His editor has the job of making the right rite copy right before the copyright can be right. Should Jim Wright decide to write right rite, then Wright could copyright write right rite. Duplicating that rite would copy Wright right rite, and violate copyright, which Wright would have the right to right. Right? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:27:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: klrsak Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from Per Ann, gender and books - I'm a man, and I have almost never read, nor have ever written, "just a book". (I read only good books, and "just a book" is of no worth to write.) - Larry lacoG indexing 303 838 0274 klrsak@oneimage.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: psychology of indexing On the loneliness issue: I don't know if any of the other indexers on the list have ICQ chat, but it's great for fighting loneliness while working. If your acquaintances also have it, they'll know when you're online, you'll know when they are- and you can take a break and chat. When I first had it I opened myself up to random chats (one of the options) and ended up having brief conversations with people from Peru, Chile, and India. Met some real weirdos too though. Anyway, it's free...if anyone wants it I'll find the URL. Myself and another indexer communicate frequently this way. Kevin Broccoli Information Management ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Subject: Re: psychology of indexing Excellent point Janet. Maybe that's why I like to put on radio stations with people talking alot. I may not listen, and I'm not really distracted, but it seems like there are people around. (Of course, the dog and two cats provide plenty of stimulation: "let me out" "let me in" "look at me" "feed me") Janet Perlman wrote: >An interesting thread. > >I think loneliness and the need for companionship during the course of a >workday and workweek is real for all of us who work in a solitary environment >like a home office. With no water cooler ........ > >That we feel this, and the fact that we discuss it in our group adds credence >to the very basic need that it is ... and it serves as a reminder to all of us >to HAVE A LIFE. I myself am prone to index, index, index. I love what I do, >and I get caught up in it. I frequently work too long and accept too many >projects, only to suffer later, wishing I could be "out there" doing other >things among people. We all have to work hard not to be too much alone with >our work. Life is more than indexing, as satisfying and stimulating as it is. > >On another "note" -- sometimes I find that what I think is loneliness is more >a lack of stimulation, and that's where music comes in. I went through this >just today. It has been a very productive day of indexing a not-too-difficult >book. Lots of good work. Really plowing through the book. But it was too >quiet, and I kept getting up and wandering around, looking for ... what? A >drink? TV? Food? ???? Problem solved: I put on some good CD's, and I >worked merrily from then on. It was a lack of stimulation more than >loneliness. > >I don't think before today I had thought about all the sensory stimuli present >in a normal office environment -- we "hear" sounds even if they are not "our" >sounds, or "for us." Phones ring, a voice here and there, people walk by, >etc. I guess the moral of the story is that we need to replicate this in our >home office environment, by adding sensory stimuli, and not working in a >"sterile" environment, as it were. Those of you who have animals at home >probably don't have as much of a problem with this, I suspect. You can tell I >don't have either kids or pets in the house. > >So let's hear it for CD's, and for staying in touch with our own needs and >being stimulated as we work! > >Janet Perlman >Southwest Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:58:37 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199812172241.RAA04137@mail3.bellsouth.net> Rachel wrote: | Also, what's the current thinking on initial caps? I find I don't want them | (except of course for proper nouns and book titles, etc.). Again, it seems | to me easier to read and less cluttered looking. Only one of my clients now | likes initial caps. I also remember a heated discussion on this, but it was | a while ago and thoughts might have changed again. I have to agree. There was a time, not so many years ago, when the default was to cap all main headings, and I (of course) did that, but it always looked odd. (Maybe because librarians tend to lowercase words in book titles...) Now, most of the style comments I get from editors, even those I've dealt with for a long time, seem to favor lowercasing main entries, except for proper nouns. Much easier to read! But it's also very easy to switch from one to the other in Cindex, so I just give 'em whichever they want... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:18:18 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Slebodnik, Maribeth B" Subject: Indexer position - Seattle, WA This showed up on the BUSLIB-L list, so I'm passing it along: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:35:27 -0800 From: Ernie Dornfeld To: PNLA-L@wln.com Subject: Job Announcement for Indexer, Seattle WA JOB ANNOUNCEMENT Indexer Seattle City Clerk's Office Seattle, Washington The Seattle City Clerk's Office seeks a qualified professional for a position as Indexer. This is a long-term temporary position. Salary Range: $17.26 to $20.07 per hour, with excellent benefits. Primary Duties: The Indexer will perform subject analysis and controlled-vocabulary indexing of complex legislative and other documents. Duties include thesaurus maintenance, on-line searching and data base quality control. This position is in support of a five-year project to provide a comprehensive on-line index to the City's legislative history and vital records. Required qualifications: Master's degree in librarianship or information science with course work in indexing, subject analysis and cataloging. Minimum of one year experience in reference work, cataloging, or indexing. Experience in document indexing using a controlled vocabulary. Training and/or experience in thesaurus construction and development of controlled vocabularies for information retrieval. Excellent analytical skills. Experience with PC-based computer systems. Preferred qualifications: . Reference and research experience in fields of public policy, law, and/or current affairs. Familiarity with local government issues and functions. Experience providing information services in local government environment. Knowledge of text processing techniques using tools such as C or Perl. Knowledge of HTML, Visual Basic, and/or other tools for developing user interfaces for information retrieval. How to Apply: Send letter of application (no longer than two pages) addressing all required qualifications; current resume; and names, addresses, and telephone numbers of three references to Carmen Valerio, Legislative Department, 1100 Municipal Building, 600 Fourth Avenue, Seattle, WA 98104. Application materials may be sent via e-mail in ASCII text or Word 6.0 format to carmen.valerio@ci.seattle.wa.us. Application materials may be transmitted by fax to 206-684-0900. Applications must be postmarked or transmitted by January 15, 1999. The City Clerk's Office manages the City of Seattle's official records, and provides information services for the public and City staff. Visit our web site: http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us _^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_ Maribeth Slebodnik Mallinckrodt, Inc. mbslebo@mkg.com Phone 314-654-3315 Fax 314-654-7385 _^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_^_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:41:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from I heard a woman on the radio this morning discussing her work with victims of torture. I wonder if she, or other people in similar jobs, have any tips to help with this issue. Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:51:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexer position / Comment The top salary of $20/hr for the Indexer position with Seattle municipal judgment is, to me, another sad commentary on the esteem and value placed on our profession. The position requires indexing "complex legal documents", responsibility for the controlled vocabulary, and the announcement even implies some responsibility for the user interface. It states requirements of an MLS or a Masters in IS, as well as preferred experience in the fields of public policy/legal research, and information sciences (C and Perl). All that for $20/hr tops! A good administrative person or manager without the technical qualifications can earn at that level. The salary does not appear to be commensurate with the level of responsibility nor education. A lot of things change ... and a lot of things don't. It is obvious from this posting that librarians and indexers are not considered true professionals. Much is asked and so little given in return! Just My Humble Opinion. Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:10:39 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: subject matter, distance from Kim Harris wrote: > I heard a woman on the radio this morning discussing her work with victims of > torture. I wonder if she, or other people in similar jobs, have any tips to > help with this issue. I am a family therapist--and I have worked for almost 30 (30! I can't believe it! I'm not adjusting well to aging!!) years with both victims and perpetrators of physical (including sexual) violence, and emotional abuse. Lillian can correct me if I've misunderstood her from our off-list communication, but I understand her concerns to be arising from the *reality* of living very close geographically to the activities of paramilitarists (and having known personally some of their victims), and the *absence* of interest in people she talks to in taking these activites seriously, so that she could be doing something actively to change what's going on around her. She did not seem to me to be fearful or especially sensitive to what she was reading in the ways that people here have been assuming--rather, she seemed more frustrated and discouraged ("gloomy" was her word) by the apathy surrounding her. I've not gotten back to you, Lillian, because I've been out leafletting--apologies. And did I understand yuo properly? But for folks who are having troubles because of their pasts or because of their concerns about others who are having abused lives, the "trick" is in what many have mentioned on the list: it's learning to be in and with the "present." The "present" is most likely for all of us on this list, a warm house, good-enough eyesight, pets, dancing, music--the "trick" is learning to shift one's whole attention to the immediate concrete present and to blow it up (in the sense of "enlarge") to greater proportions in one's mind than the imaginings that were being given such great attention. "Gratitude" is perhaps the most efficient attitude to shift into: shifting into gratefulness for all those things we are inclined not only to take for granted, but that we believe we are "entitiled" to and that we "deserve." Again, like running water, paved roads, adoring pets and friends and family, computers that work (most of the time), clothing, democracy (well, most of the time), and on and on. As a therapist, I had to learn how to make these shifts quickly and at will. Most folks don't have that kind of practise that keeps those "sets of muscles" toned and flexible. But we all have those muscles, and movies are great places to "work out." Jackie Flenner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:59:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Subject matter,distance from +psychology of indexing Hello all- It's intersting how these two threads have merged this morning, so, having been the original poster on the first, I give myself the privilege of "stitching" the two together: Janet wrote >I think loneliness and the need for companionship during the course of a >workday and workweek is real for all of us who work in a solitary environment like a home office. With no water cooler ........ > To which Joanna writes >Excellent point Janet. Maybe that's why I like to put on radio stations with >people talking alot. I may not listen, and I'm not really distracted, but it >seems like there are people around. (Of course, the dog and two cats provide >plenty of stimulation: "let me out" "let me in" "look at me" "feed me") > And Jackie writes concerning my original post: >Lillian can correct me if I've misunderstood her from our off-list >communication, but I understand her concerns to be arising from the *reality* of >living very close geographically to the activities of paramilitarists (and >having known personally some of their victims), and the *absence* of interest in >people she talks to in taking these activites seriously, so that she could be >doing something actively to change what's going on around her. She did not seem >to me to be fearful or especially sensitive to what she was reading in the ways >that people here have been assuming--rather, she seemed more frustrated and >discouraged ("gloomy" was her word) by the apathy surrounding her. > >I've not gotten back to you, Lillian, because I've been out >leafletting--apologies. And did I understand yuo properly? > You understood me properly all right. And I quite agree with the comments that all of us, whether or not we work alone --but especially those of us who work alone-- need the stimuli found in an office atmosphere. Like Joanna, I, too, have a "broadcast voice" around me; in my case, CNN (I'm a news junkie with an ancient degree in broadcast journalism); but a major component of my "gloom" was not just that I found the apathy of my neighbors frustrating (and yes, Jackie, that definitely is correct) but also the fact that there are so many parallels in the material that I'm reading and have a rather intense relationship with just now, and the current news of the day, whether it be impeachment or war in Iraq. I tried to skirt around the political aspects in my original post because I didn't want to start a flame war; on the other hand, it is very much part of the problem that I'm having. Wherever I turn, I'm surrounded with the same "problem" stimuli. When I worked in our campus library, I could concentrate on my work, have the option of watching the news or not (I did have access to CNN at my desk) but I could turn it off, do my work, limit my TV time when I got home, if necessary (this during the Gulf War) and retreat into my English gardening books. I knew what was going on in the world but I could keep my distance and it didn't impact my income. This is where the distinction lies; before I could "tune in" or "tune out" as needed. Now it's around me all the time, wherever I turn. But I've pulled my stack of gardening books and Anne Perry mysteries, found a "golden oldies" radio station (meaning 40s and 50s music) and take frequent breaks with my two cats. I will get through this project --it is a very important book; I hadn't dreamed how strongly it would affect me. Thank you all again for your wonderful ideas. And, Rachel --Hang in there -- the "virtual group hug" I got from the list is heading your way. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:10:17 -0800 Reply-To: jlee@eskimo.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Indexer position / Comment - OTOH On the other hand, it is a salaried governmental position, likely with all the benefits: Paid holidays, medical insurance, sick leave, vacation pay, partial FICA payment, etc. Benefits normally account for 30 - 40 percent of salary, so given that, the pay is actually $30.00+ when compared to the additional overhead of the self-employed. Jeri Lee JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > The top salary of $20/hr for the Indexer position with Seattle municipal > judgment is, to me, another sad commentary on the esteem and value placed on > our profession. > > The position requires indexing "complex legal documents", responsibility for > the controlled vocabulary, and the announcement even implies some > responsibility for the user interface. It states requirements of an MLS or a > Masters in IS, as well as preferred experience in the fields of public > policy/legal research, and information sciences (C and Perl). All that for > $20/hr tops! A good administrative person or manager without the technical > qualifications can earn at that level. The salary does not appear to be > commensurate with the level of responsibility nor education. > > A lot of things change ... and a lot of things don't. It is obvious from this > posting that librarians and indexers are not considered true professionals. > Much is asked and so little given in return! > > Just My Humble Opinion. > Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Canadians in Indexer Locator I have asked Victoria Baker this question and she feels it is appropriate for this list. Have any Canadians ever had a listing in the Indexer Locator and did any of these listings lead to work? Linda Cardella Cournoyer Member ASI and Eastern Canada Representative IASC cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:40:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: psychology of indexing (lonely) In-Reply-To: I really truly appreciate all your support. I knew I would find it when I wrote my post. I do want to let people know, though, that even though I miss Alex, I do still have 6 of his adopted brothers and sisters, so there is really no pressing urge to get another cat! I am having fairly strong kitten urges, though, must be like people who want more babies. I am planning to take up some of the other suggestions, though, such as finding a book group, and maybe getting involved at my Temple, and maybe joining the health club! Such a concept. Kevin, I have ICQ but have never used it. I'll figure it out. That's a good idea! Lillian, I got the virtual hug, thanks! Hope things go better for you with the book. Going to go to the post office. Maybe there will be someone there to chat to :-) Take care all, and thanks again, Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:58:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: publisher w/ Mac system This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... any ideas? Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Anyone have any ideas what I can do = about=20 this:
 
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Kevin
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system Can you save it in RTF and email it? Also, I think there's a Word filter so that you can save it to Mac version. If you provide that on disk, the publisher will have to be able to access your disk (some newer Macs can read DOS formatted disks, can't they?). If this is something you're going to need to do a lot in the future, there's software you can buy to enable reading and writing Mac disks from the PC. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin A. Broccoli [SMTP:brocindx@CATSKILL.NET] > Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 2:59 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: publisher w/ Mac system > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: > > A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = > delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... > > any ideas? > > Kevin > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: gobmg@domainnamebox.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BMG Music Subject: FREE CDs...ACT NOW! Take 12 CDs For the Price of 1 NOTHING MORE TO BUY, EVER! FREE CDs NOW... Check out BMG Music Service Online -- http://www.bmgmusicservice.com/acq/ct/email/10 Click here! to choose your FREE CDs with membership! MORE MUSIC... Search and browse our entire catalog -- now with over 12,000 titles -- from rock to classical, light sounds to metal, country to jazz, R&B to alternative. And now, hear sound clips online before you order! AN UNBEATABLE OFFER... 12 CDs for the price of 1, with nothing more to buy, ever! Shipping and handling will be added. 100% RISK FREE. See our website for details. http://www.bmgmusicservice.com/acq/ct/email/10 Click here! P.S. Forward this message to your friends so they don't miss out on this great deal! If for some reason you would not like to receive any further messages from BMG Music Service, please reply to this message and type "unsubscribe" in the subject line and be sure to include the original message in your request. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:15:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system Kevin, A Mac is capable of reading a PC file in MS Word. Ask the publisher what version of MS Word she is running, then save your document (use File, Save As) as that version for Mac or the next lowest version if her particular version is not one of the available options in the drop-down box. Hope this helps, Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: publisher w/ Mac system Author: "Kevin A. Broccoli" at internet Date: 12/18/98 2:58 PM This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... any ideas? Kevin ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anyone have any ideas what I can do = about=20 this:
 
A small publisher that works on a = Mac system=20 wants an index done and delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word = file.  I=20 run a PC system, so....
 
any ideas?
 
Kevin
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John_Sullivan@STRATUS.COM Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system This is certainly true, but if it's an older Mac system it won't be able to read a DOS-formatted disk. John Sullivan > -----Original Message----- > From: Cheryl Jackson [SMTP:cjackson@MCP.COM] > Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 5:15 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system > > Kevin, > > A Mac is capable of reading a PC file in MS Word. Ask the publisher > what version of MS Word she is running, then save your document (use > File, Save As) as that version for Mac or the next lowest version if > her particular version is not one of the available options in the > drop-down box. > > Hope this helps, > Cheryl Jackson > Macmillan Publishing > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:40:06 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system In-Reply-To: <199812181453.r7lcm8.3gq.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> You should be able to save your file in RTF format, which her version of Mac Word should be able to open. OR find out exactly which version of Word she has. If you have Word as well, you can tell Windows Word to save a file as a specific Mac Word version, and that would work. Jan Wright At 02:58 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: > >A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = >delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... > >any ideas? > >Kevin > >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80 >Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
Anyone have any ideas what I can do = >about=20 >this:
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>
A small publisher that works on a = >Mac system=20 >wants an index done and delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word = >file.  I=20 >run a PC system, so....
>
 
>
any ideas?
>
 
>
Kevin
> >------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BE2A96.EAE9BB80-- > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:49:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system Kevin wrote >A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = >delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... >any ideas? Hi Kevin. Do the index in Cindex on your PC, then save to an rtf file and put the file on a disk. Cindex on my Mac can format a disk for PC (SAVE AS, OPTIONS), I would think Cindex on your PC could format a disk for Mac. Would you like help walking through it? -- I don't have a PC but we would stagger through the forest together... Martha ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:03:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system In a message dated 98-12-18 15:27:44 EST, you write: << This is certainly true, but if it's an older Mac system it won't be able to read a DOS-formatted disk. >> This is where email attached files are really helpful. There are no disks to read. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system In-Reply-To: <004701be2ac0$f512f3e0$ee06b1d1@brocindx.catskill.net> Kevin, If you have MS Word or Wordperfect, even if you save it as Win or Dos file on a PC disk your client should be able to open and read it anyway if she has up to date hardware, software, etc. We Mac people can do stuff like that. Rachel > Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: A small publisher >that works on a Mac system wants an index done and delivered on disk. She >wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... any ideas? Kevin Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 18:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: mac system Kevin, Oh, I forgot to say you have to export the Cindex or Macrex or whatever file into a word processor, then save it and send it. You can make it an RTF file if you want but you don't have to. Or maybe I did say that? Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:35:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: mac system Much thanks to everyone that answered my Mac/PC question. What quick, helpful responses I received! You're a great bunch! Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 02:09:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mac system Kevin has an editor who needs a file for a Mac. I run into this frequently. I have Cindex make me a RTF and open it in MS Word. Then I save it as a Word for Mac file on a DOS formatted disk. No one has had a problem. So far. Before I had MS Word, I sent one editor a RTF and she didn't understand how to open it on her Mac. She called me in a panic, then said, "Wait I have an idea!" and hung up. She called back later and said that everything was fine. I asked what program she used to open it. She said she didn't use a program. I was trying to find a polite way to say one can't open a file without a program, when she said that she had just double-clicked the icon. What was she editing? Computer manuals. I have found that editors often have just the most basic computer skills, so don't assume they even know what a RTF file is. I worked for one editor who wanted the index file in Quark for the Mac. I went to a friend's house and he put my RTF file onto a Mac disk for me. She wouldn't give me the job unless I could guarantee that. She wouldn't even consider trying to import a test file. It was a reasonable request. I'm sure she could easily have found another indexer. I believe I actually hear faint echoes of at least 20 of you saying, "Yes, she could have hired me." ;-) Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 06:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Salaried indexer position I had the same initial reaction when I first saw this announcement (and am not tempted to apply for it in any case since it's out of my specialty.) However, we've got to keep in mind that this is a SALARIED position (even if temporary) which implies that taxes are withheld, social security is matched, some benefits may be provided, etc., and that the person will NOT have to pay self-employment tax for that income. So in effect it's the equivalent of a freelance job at 30-50% more. (There's also no state or local income tax in Washington.) $20/hr at a full-time rate (2040 paid hours/yr) is $40,800/yr, which is NOT a shabby salary, IMHO. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. =================================================================== The top salary of $20/hr for the Indexer position with Seattle municipal judgment is, to me, another sad commentary on the esteem and value placed on our profession. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:37:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Salaried indexer position In-Reply-To: cgweaver@mindspring.com "Salaried indexer position" (Dec 19, 6:09am) > I had the same initial reaction when I first saw this announcement > (and am not tempted to apply for it in any case since it's out of my > specialty.) And let's not forget that it's a full-time position, with a certain amount of security. If there are other indexers working there, this position would be a great opportunity for someone relatively new. - Seth ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:00:37 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Salaried indexer position With all due respects to Carolyn and Seth, I still don't think this salary is commensurate with the amount of responsibility and training this position asks for, and with salaries in other professional disciplines. If you were in the computer industry, a salary of $40,000 would be laughed at in industry. Professionals in that field make much more than that. Beginners with a B.S. are paid at that range, and with a Master's Degree they are paid $10,000 to $20,000 more. Attorneys just out of law school with no experience make more than $40,000 (ask me, I have one). Why shouldn't this position pay according to that scale? I am fully aware of the 30-40% that has to be tacked onto the salary for the compensation package when figuring total compensation. I am also fully aware of the security of the government position. I put in 15 years with City government before leaving to be a fulltime freelancer, and my husband is a 25 year veteran of City employment .... and he will retire from his systems analyst position with a salary much lower than he could be making in industry. Yes, we have enjoyed the security, but it is also a darned shame that we had to pay so dearly with it in lower wages ... a lifetime through, over a period of 25 years. The salary vs. security issue is a tough one! And also, let's not forget also that this is a temporary position. It is not a career position, with a career path. It has no place to go. You work there for 5 years (per the job announcement, it is a 5 year project) and then you are out. No career path, no advancement, no perks. No bonuses. So let's agree to disagree. I'm sure some people will find that sufficient compensation, and will apply for the job. That's fine -- different strokes etc. As for me, I will continue to push for the higher hourly rate or per page rate, to try to bring the indexers' compensation up to a professional level. I guess I was born to be an entrepreneur. I wouldn't be satisfied with that salary. I wasn't satisfied with it when I worked in that venue -- that's why I'm doing what I'm doing today, I guess. ;-) Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:50:57 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Coping with solitariness In a message dated 98-12-17 13:27:11 EST, Rachel wrote: << I'm home so much, alone, and so little contact with others. I probably sound pretty pathetic, but I wondered if others are in the same boat and how do you handle it? >> Do you live in the country? If so, my mechanism may not work for you. I consider myself fortunate to live in a neighborhood with a small traditional diner (no gourmet stuff, just basics) within a block and a half's walk. Rarely do I not walk down for breakfast to be among tradespeople and their conversations, sort of "open mike" on current topics, even tho my opinions usually are 180 degrees from theirs. It's a great way to start the day without the hysteria-mongering or trash talk of local DJs. Maybe this is an option for you? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 13:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: christop@pathcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christopher Blackburn Subject: Canadians and Indexer Locator On Friday, Dec. 18, Linda Cardella Cournoyer asked "Have any Canadians ever had a listing in the Indexer Locator and did any of these listings ever lead to work?" No, Linda, and any others interested, I have not had a listing in the Indexer Locator myself. I have thought about it but it seemed a bit expensive (something like $100 Canadian, as I remember). I'll be interested to see if any other Canadians reply. I would like to mention that I have received at least one job from a publisher who mentioned that she found my name in the ASI Directory of Members. I was very happy to receive my copy of the latest ASI Directory a few days ago, and to notice that the information on myself was accurate. I notice that you're in the ASI Directory too, Linda: the exposure can't hurt. Best wishes for Christmas, good health and good indexing to Linda and to all on the list. Chris Blackburn (member of ASI and IASC) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 18:17:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Grabke Subject: Re: Salaried indexer position There's a wide gap in salaries among different professional fields. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just saying that that's they way it is. I think that professional librarians and teachers would love to have a starting salary of $40,000 a year. And wouldn't we all love to make the salary of a professional athlete? --Cynthia Grabke Indexing and Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:18:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: prepositions In-Reply-To: <199812171827.KAA21299@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> At 13:20 12/17/98 -0500, Rachel wrote: >There seems to be a trend away from the use of prepositions altogether >unless required for clarity. Most of my clients have asked me not to use >them. I think we discussed this here before, but of course I can't remember >what we said about it. Is there a difference between scholarly vs. trade >books? I feel like I want to just trim them out whenever possible. My older >indexes look very cluttered and inelegant to me now. Will I be inconsistent >if I don't use them unless there's a clarity issue? Is it all or nothing? Hi Rachel, Over the years I tended to use fewer and fewer prepositions. In fact, when I look at some of my older indexes, I cringe at the unnecessary number of trailing "of"s. One of the things that forced me to limit my use of leading prepositions was embedded indexing. When you embed an index in Word, for example, it will sort on the leading prepositions which is unacceptable, IMHO. In FrameMaker, you can force it to sort on the first important word in the subentry, but it is a true pain because you must do it manually for each subentry with a leading preposition. Embedded indexes aside, limiting prepositions to only those instances where they are needed for clarity leads to a much cleaner, more elegant index, IMHO. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) The purpose of life is to matter - to count, to stand for something, to have it make some difference that we lived at all. - Leo Rosten *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 15:23:54 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: initial caps In-Reply-To: <199812171827.KAA21299@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> At 13:20 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Also, what's the current thinking on initial caps? I find I don't want them >(except of course for proper nouns and book titles, etc.). Again, it seems >to me easier to read and less cluttered looking. Only one of my clients now >likes initial caps. I also remember a heated discussion on this, but it was >a while ago and thoughts might have changed again. Hi Rachel, I only use initial caps when the publisher's style demands them. I wholeheartedly agree with the excellent usability info that Dick provided in his post on this topic. Another reason not to use initial caps is that they wreck havoc in indexes to computer texts. Again, agreeing with Dick, computer texts are often full of commands and other entries where case is important. I find that this is particularly true in indexing programming texts. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) The purpose of life is to matter - to count, to stand for something, to have it make some difference that we lived at all. - Leo Rosten *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:21:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: psychology of indexing In-Reply-To: <199812171827.KAA21299@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> At 13:20 12/17/98 -0500, Rachel wrote: >Regarding recipes in non-cookbooks. I'm reading (not indexing) a book about >blood types and the proper diet for them. The index has an entry for >recipes that xrefs me to See Meal planning and recipes; specific recipes. >Under Meal planning (note the initial cap) one finds subentries by blood >type with a See also specific recipes. Problem is, how am I sposed to know >the names of the specific recipes so I can find them? I must scan the >entire index? I can easily find the ones for the specific blood type, but >what if I can't remember which type a recipe was for, or what if I want all >the veggie recipes? My question is, am I being overfussy? Hi Rachel, What a juicy post! You gave us a lot to think about and respond to. ;-D Anyway, "See specific recipes" is a misuse of the general cross-referencing technique. It should only be employed when the indexer is absolutely sure that the reader knows (or can easily find a list of) the names of (or terms for) the specific items that are the target of the cross-reference. Recipe names are so variable and so often non-descriptive that it is unreasonable to expect the reader to know their names. You are not being overly fussy, but I think that categorizing the recipes as vegetarian, etc. may be going too far in a book that's not a cookbook. Actually, there seems to be a structural problem with this index. First of all, readers aren't likely to look under "Meal planning" to find specific recipes, IMHO. Had I indexed that book, I would have created main headings for each of the blood types and a subentry under each for "recipes" with a page range (if the recipes are nicely grouped by blood type). A blood type ...other subentries recipes (specific recipe names if "recipes" can't be page- ranged) ...other subentries Secondly, I would create a main entry for recipes with subentries for each blood type. If the recipes aren't grouped together by blood type in the book so I could get away with simply creating a page-range, then I'd list them individually as subsubentries (if allowed by the publisher) here (and under the "Blood Type, recipe" headings): recipes A blood type recipe name B blood type recipe name Of course, if you have to go down to the subsub level and indicate specific recipe names, they would simply be double-posted between the two sets of entries above. >Maybe there was >a space limitation. Maybe most readers will only want the recipes for their >own blood type. If I had written the index, I'm pretty sure that without a >space limitation I would have listed all the recipes by name under the main >entry for recipes. I wouldn't have broken them down further though, such as >by ingredients, as it's not a cook book. Would it have been an error to >list them all under recipes? I agree with all of this. While I usually don't like to classify, I think this is a case where it would be helpful to the reader. Anyway, if the index were structured along the lines of what I described above, that pesky "See also specific recipes" could be written as "See also Recipes" (since this index is using initial caps ;-D). The reader would then find specific recipes under the blood type subentries (or the page ranges containing them). One thing that comes in handy (when possible) is to create an subentry that says "listed" if the book contains a list of the things or concepts in question. If the index contains such a subentry where a reader is likely to look, it is safer to create general cross references elsewhere in the index (See also specific...). But this technique requires a finely honed index structure, IMHO, with a well-developed cross-reference network. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) The purpose of life is to matter - to count, to stand for something, to have it make some difference that we lived at all. - Leo Rosten *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:38:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: psychology of indexing In-Reply-To: <199812171827.KAA21299@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> At 13:20 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote: > >OK, last question. I realize it's That Time of Year, but I am suffering a >bit from loneliness. I have 2 indexes this month which is one more than I >usually have, so I've been home a lot, plus my job (my full time job) is >very solitary as well. I only go in to the office maybe 1 or 2 times in a >2-week period, and when I am there I sit alone in an office unless there's >a crisis and then I can go out and see some crazy people. A lot of the time >I'm on call from home. In January my schedule will be changing so that I >will never be going into the office at all. I am a loner by nature and >really hardly ever feel lonely, but I'm feeling it pretty strongly right >now. I do miss my cat Alex who died in September, and Christmas day is the >anniversary of the death of another of my cats, so that partly explains it. >But I think it's mostly that I'm home so much, alone, and so little contact >with others. I probably sound pretty pathetic, but I wondered if others are >in the same boat and how do you handle it? My usual techniques aren't >working. Hi Rachel, I'm truly sorry about the death of your cats!!!! Years ago, my favorite cat (out of over 20 that I've had over the years) died and I *still* miss him. He was a spectacular orange tabby-Persian who was so attached to me that he used to hide in my seabag the night before I was due to go on a deployment, apparently hoping he could stowaway onto the ship with me. ;-D We have two cats now, including a very furry Persian that's a real furball generator. So we keep them out of the office because the computer fans keep getting clogged with cat hair. Anyway, I bought a really expensive stereo (even better than the one in the living room) for the office and have played a wide range of CDs while working. I found that most baroque music was an excellent background for working. (I say "most" because I find Vivaldi a bit too bright to be conducive to concentrating on indexing. I'd keep stopping to listen to the music instead of working. ;-D) One neat thing about baroque music is that the largo movements supposedly force your heart rate to 60bpm (matching the beat of the music), inducing relaxation. (Now I take beta blockers that send my heart rate even lower than 60bpm, so it's best that I stay away from baroque music these days. ;-D) Jazz is also great as background music, IMHO. Unfortunately, rock makes me want to get up and dance and some blues are so good I end up stomping my feet and swaying to the music instead of indexing. And a lot of Middle Eastern music gets me up out of the chair to do either Middle Eastern folk dances or belly dance. So, I found that you really have to chose your "working music" with care. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) The purpose of life is to matter - to count, to stand for something, to have it make some difference that we lived at all. - Leo Rosten *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:14:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Coping with solitariness >Rarely >do I not walk down for breakfast to be among tradespeople and their >conversations, sort of "open mike" on current topics, even tho my opinions >usually are 180 degrees from theirs. It's a great way to start the day without >the hysteria-mongering or trash talk of local DJs. > Diane in Kazoo Ach, Diane - this sounds wonderful! I have a "gourmet" coffee shop within walking distance here in Eugene and another not much further. They both know me by name - I often take my page proofs there to mark and my indexes there to proof (and, yes, I also eavesdrop, but not for mean reasons). I find it surprising that folks still ask how I keep up the discipline of work without definite working hours and a boss with a whip, and how do I deal with the "loneliness". Bah. I don't understand how they could even wonder whether they could (as I see it) "keep their word to do whatever it takes to deliver the goods by a certain date." And I NEVER get lonely - I invite friends to coffee whenever I need a change of scenery. (And every Thursday is ThunderEggs at one of the good-coffee shops - a group of UU women-over-80 plus anyone they choose to bring who would want to solve-the-problems-of-the-world that afternoon. ThunderEggs are Oregon rocks that are a form of geode: grey, round, crunchy and boring on the outside, but crystals on the inside. ) In fact, I have felt that this Christmas season was the most "successful" so far in that I have reduced the number of parties and Must-Dos this year to TWO. Maybe my mother is right, though, and I AM wierd.....hmmm... Holiday greetings to you, Diane! Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:26:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Denna Sadler Subject: Hello Hi there. My name is Denna Sadler and I am new to the index-l list, so I thought I would just drop a note and say hello. I am not an indexer but I am strongly consideringbecoming one because it looks interesting to me. I have picked up a copy of Larry Bonura's The Art of Indexing, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any other books for newcomers. Basically, I am doing research before jumping into this profession, like how to index and also what a typical work day would be like for the average freelance indexer. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Denna Sadler ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 00:14:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: publisher w/ Mac system Kevin Broccoli asks: Anyone have any ideas what I can do about this: A small publisher that works on a Mac system wants an index done and = delivered on disk. She wants an MS Word file. I run a PC system, so.... any ideas? In addition to the other ideas people have provided, I use a program called "Conversions Plus". It lets you read from and write to a Macintosh disk, and format one of your floppies for use in a Macintosh computer. If you are using Windows 95 it automatically knows that a disk you have put in your A drive is a Mac disk and displays the directory in Windows Explorer in the normal manner. It also has filters for converting to and from the PC and Mac versions of different software (such as MS Word), as well as between different applications. It's not infallible, but it does just about everything I want. Check it out at www.dataviz.com Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:30:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ella Patterson Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system In-Reply-To: <199812201316.NAA04144@fujin.qub.ac.uk> Unsubscribe ---------------------- Ella Patterson Cataloguing Department Main Library The Queen's University of Belfast Belfast Northern reland BT7 1LS Telephone: (01232) 273639 FAX: (01232) 323340 E-MAIL: E.Patterson@qub.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: mac system Echoing Micki's comments about the rudimentary knowledge of editors, even of computer books. I am amazed at how many still want disks and hard copy. It took me about 9 indexes for one company sent by FedEx ($15 a pop plus the disk and the paper and the ink and the 2 days lost that could have been extra time to work on the index) to finally convince them to TRY letting me send them an attached file. They had email all that time, they just didn't even want to try. So I convinced them (thank God they have Macs), and now they let me do it that way and they love it. I recently talked to someone else I know who works for them, and they had still not even suggested to her that she do the same. She was still sending disks. She asked them about it, and they said, I don't know if we can do that. . . And it's a very small company, they don't even have cubicles, just a big open room. You'd think they could just say loudly, Hey, guess what we can do now . . . Oh well. OK I'm procrastinating. Got to get back towork or the index for this same company is going to be late. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:13:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: Hello Hi Denna, On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 17:26:55 -0800 Denna Sadler writes: I have picked up a copy of Larry Bonura's The >Art >of Indexing, and I was wondering if anyone could recommend any other >books >for newcomers. "Indexing Books" by Nancy Mulvany is very good. I don't know if it's in libraries, but you can order it from a book store. A book available at larger libraries is "Indexing from A to Z" by Hans Wellisch. The American Society of Indexers (ASI) has a web site that offers a lot of information: http://www.ASIndexing.org. A fair amount of people learned to index by taking the USDA course Basic Indexing. It is by correspondence, and includes a lot of administrative wait time, but it works (and it's fairly inexpensive). The correspondence school web site is: http://grad.usda.gov >Basically, I am doing research before jumping into this >profession, like how to index and also what a typical work day would >be >like for the average freelance indexer. Work days are as varied as the people on this list! It all depends on your personal situation. I work part time, which to me means 3 to 4 hours a day for a typical length book. I work around my three kids and husband, so I work nights and weekends. It is intellectual work, not busy work, so quiet, uninterrupted work time is important for success and making deadlines. As a self-employed person you will do the indexing work, the marketing, the leg work, and the finances. It's hard to succinctly say "how you index." Basically, though, you read the book, note what you think should be main and sub headings, type it into indexing software or a word processor, and edit the drafts. However, most of the work is based on deciding what to index in the book and coming up with a useful, succinct index after a few edits. Much thought goes into it! > >Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Check out those web sites, read what gets discussed on Index-L, and evaluate for yourself, based on your personality, talents, and career goals, if indexing is right for you. Welcome to the list! Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:07:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Hello I learned a lot from the indexing chapter in the Chicago Manual of Style. Nell << I was wondering if anyone could recommend any other >books >for newcomers. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:51:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Subscribing to Index-L Hello all! Hope you all have a happy holiday. My question is, how does someone sign up for Index L again? I have someone who wants to join the group! :-) Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:54:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hello In a message dated 12/20/98 1:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, susanhernandez@JUNO.COM writes: << "Indexing Books" by Nancy Mulvany is very good. I don't know if it's in libraries, but you can order it from a book store. A book available at larger libraries is "Indexing from A to Z" by Hans Wellisch. >> Yes the Mulvany book is in Libraries. Ive taken that book out fro the Library. Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:05:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Frank Subject: Re: Music & heart rate, during work/indexing In-Reply-To: <367D089E.3243834D@mindspring.com> Cool. I like to listen to Raegae or listen to an all-talk channel. l,c At 09:24 AM 12/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >I thought this might interest you: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >I bought a really expensive stereo (even better than the one in the >living room) for the office and have played a wide range of CDs while >working. I found that most baroque music was an excellent background for >working. (I say "most" because I find Vivaldi a bit too bright to be >conducive to concentrating on indexing. I'd keep stopping to listen to >the >music instead of working. ;-D) One neat thing about baroque music is >that >the largo movements supposedly force your heart rate to 60bpm (matching >the >beat of the music), inducing relaxation. (Now I take beta blockers that >send my heart rate even lower than 60bpm, so it's best that I stay away >from baroque music these days. ;-D) Jazz is also great as background >music, >IMHO. Unfortunately, rock makes me want to get up and dance and some >blues >are so good I end up stomping my feet and swaying to the music instead >of >indexing. And a lot of Middle Eastern music gets me up out of the chair >to >do either Middle Eastern folk dances or belly dance. So, I found that >you >really have to chose your "working music" with care. ;-D > >Lynn > >*********************************** >Lynn Moncrief >(techndex@pacbell.net) > > 1202 E. State St. Ithaca, NY 14850 (h) 607-273-5018 (h) 607-256-7499 (voice mail) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:48:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Subscribing to Index-L >Hello all! > >Hope you all have a happy holiday. >My question is, how does someone sign up for Index L again? I have someone who >wants to join the group! :-) > >Patrick The instruction for getting > the digest? > Sure. Send the following message to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu set index-l digest put nothing else in the body of the message and leave the subject line blank. If/when you want to return to individual messages send the message: set index-l nodigest Plus: These are the subscription options the server will tell you about: Ack an acknowledgement from the server not, as on other lists, a copy of your own message Mail list messages; nomail is postpone on other lists Files I have no idea what this means; my guess is whether you can get files of past messages or digests from the server Repro copies of your own messages ("ack" on other lists) Header something about the information present in the header of the messages you receive, what I don't know Conceal I have no idea what this means, but my guess is whether someone can get your address from the list files To change your subscription options, send a message from your subscription address to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu with no subject line. In the body of the message, set the option or the negative option, e.g. Set Index-L Repro Set Index-L Norepro When asked for help, the server told me: ---------- LISTSERV version 1.8a - most commonly used commands Info Order documentation Lists Get a description of all lists SUBscribe listname Subscribe to a list SIGNOFF listname Sign off from a list SIGNOFF * (NETWIDE - from all lists on all servers REView listname Review a list Query listname Query your subscription options SET listname options Update your subscription options INDex Order a list of LISTSERV files GET filename filetype Order a file from LISTSERV REGister full_name|OFF Tell LISTSERV about your name There are more commands (AFD, FUI, PW, etc). Send an INFO REFCARD for a comprehensive reference card, or just INFO for a list of available documentation files. ---------- ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:06:45 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: psychology of indexing and another thread Rachel asks about techniques for handling loneliness. No pets, no wife or children, but I do other things besides indexing. My two best solutions, one of which also ties into another thread, are (1) I have several shelves of books (SF paperbacks mostly) whose reading inspire positive feelings and I bury myself in them as needed. (2) I also keep busy on my other income jobs which admittedly are a little different from most (and most necessary to pay living expenses). Thus as a historical investigator this year I went abroad five times-- for shipwreck research (twice), archival survey, data on a forgotten Spanish fort and, just last week, to interview a Poqom Maya speaker regarding a colonial dictionary of that language (which I'm transcribing). I also had two books of my own finished and published this year. 1998a. "The Last Days of British Saint Augustine: A Spanish Census for an English Colony." Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Baltimore Maryland. 1998b. "Motagua Colonial: Conquest and Colonization in the Motagua River Valley of Guatemala." Boson Books, Raleigh North Carolina. Other books, and at least one promised article, are in progress. In brief I try to keep busy and live an interesting life. Larry Feldman PS Yes, I did 8 indexes this year of publications that were written by others- one for a scholarly journal, five from the same (low paying) publisher, and two from other publishers. ******************************************************** Lawrence H. Feldman Post Office Box 2493 Wheaton Maryland 20915-2493 301-933-2616 Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer - Researcher - Writer ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: Indexer position / Comment Janet, "The top salary of $20/hr for the Indexer position with Seattle municipal judgment is, to me, another sad commentary on the esteem and value placed on our profession." Apparently you don't have much experience with government, they seldom pay "industry" standards. And, it is also well to keep in mind, this very likely includes full benefits for the duration of the job, which in government can be quite substantial. Add that to the $35K to $41K range and it aint too bad especially for an MLS. When I graduated from library school in 1988 New York Public came to the school and was offering a generous $16K to start (they didn't get any takers). "It is obvious from this posting that librarians and indexers are not considered true professionals." As I said, this is a government job and a municipal one at that. They probably feel lucky being given any money to fund this position. Also, I have never based my position as a professional on salary, and believe it is a mistake to do so. If that range shocks you look at what teachers earn in some states, or firemen, or police, and I could go on. Yes it would be nice to be paid what we think we are worth, but this is one of the joys of working in a capitalist paradise. Brian M. Peck, Technical Librarian/Indexer Legislative Library North Carolina General Assembly Suite 500, LOB 300 North Salisbury Street Raleigh, North Carolina 27603-5925 (910) 733-9390 Fax: (919) 715-5460 brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:34:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Loneliness of solo indexing Although this thread seems to be dying out I thought I'd give my two cents worth. My indexing was for a single company but covered monographs, journals and newspapers (as well as very exciting company reports) from the Middle East, South Asia and Asia. It was nice to be working with areas that were my specialty and that I enjoyed. However, as may be guessed these are areas with a lot of unpleasantness going on and this tended to take its toll. On the other hand it was simply the lack of co-workers that preyed hardest on me. That and the lack of a separation between work and home. Yes I had a home office, but there was no drive to work to prepare for the day or drive home to shift into the off mode. The toll was way to high for me. For this reason I would probably never work that way again. I won't get rich working for a state government, but I have job security, co-workers to interact with and a distance between home and office that is both physical and psychological. Unfortunately, I have traded in wars, poverty and human rights abuses for state politics, but you can't have everything. Brian M. Peck, Technical Librarian/Indexer Legislative Library North Carolina General Assembly Suite 500, LOB 300 North Salisbury Street Raleigh, North Carolina 27603-5925 (910) 733-9390 Fax: (919) 715-5460 brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 09:35:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Salaried indexer position If you were in the computer industry, a salary of $40,000 would be laughed at in industry. Professionals in that field make much more than that. Beginners with a B.S. are paid at that range, and with a Master's Degree they are paid $10,000 to $20,000 more. Attorneys just out of law school with no experience make more than $40,000 (ask me, I have one). Why shouldn't this position pay according to that scale? Please allow me to disabuse you of this notion. It's true that for some of the top graduates who go to big law firms that they start higher than this (in some cases, much higher), but the starting salary for a District or Commonwealth's Attorney or Public Defender is likely to be closer to $30,000 to 35,000 a year, and if you work for Legal Aid, a public service group or as a clerk, it may be lower. Television fiction notwithstanding, most attorneys just out of law school would not sneer at a $40,000 a year offer. Also, I have friends in the computer industry, and again, it depends on where you're living and what you're doing. Like every other job, a lot depends on the market-- cost of living, benefits and other intangibles. The bottom line is that the salary is sufficient if someone with the required skills thinks that it is sufficient to apply and accept the position at that level. I don't believe in standing in judgment on people who choose to accept lower salaries, perhaps because I have done so-- do you really think I make as much in the publishing industry as I could in the legal arena? It's a lifestyle choice. I'm not trying to be rude, but if you don't think that the salary is sufficient, don't apply for the job. If they get no qualified applicants, then they will reconsider what they are offering. That's how the employment trade works. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:32:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: psychology of indexing Lynn wrote: << I found that most baroque music was an excellent background for working...One neat thing about baroque music is that the largo movements supposedly force your heart rate to 60bpm (matching the beat of the music), inducing relaxation....Jazz is also great as background music, IMHO. Unfortunately, rock makes me want to get up and dance and some blues are so good I end up stomping my feet and swaying to the music instead of indexing. And a lot of Middle Eastern music gets me up out of the chair to do either Middle Eastern folk dances or belly dance. So, I found that you really have to chose your "working music" with care. ;-D >> LOL, Lynn! I listen to all kinds of music while indexing, different kinds for different parts of the indexing process. Mostly classical these days. If I don't have music on, my mind wanders. It can have words, but only very familiar ones. Strangely, the only exception to this is that when I'm checking back through the text for items I missed, I can't have any music on! And when I'm doing a fast-and-furious edit, I usually listen to very loud 70s-80s dance music (I play the tapes from when I used to DJ). Believe it or not, I concentrate better that way. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:15:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Question re: glossaries Hi everyone; hope you can help with this question -- I am indexing a book with an eight-page glossary (about 60 terms). Should I index each term in the glossary? Mulvany (Indexing Books) says: as a general rule, the contents of the bibliography and glossary are not indexed. However, if the back matter is lengthy, it may be helpful to readers to cite in the index the presence of the glossary. Wellisch (Indexing from A to Z) says: The presence of a glossary should be indexed, and the terms defined in it (which will almost inevitably be employed in the text and thus have index entries) should also be indexed, preferably by a subheading "defined." How do all of you handle glossaries? Should I just ask the editor for her preference? Thank you, Debbie Lindblom alindblom@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Question re: glossaries I have seen glossary terms both included in the index and not. With only 60 terms, unless you have a serious space limitation, it would be nice to have them indexed - it is probably only an additional locator. I do like the idea of indicating that the index citation is a definition, as you cite Wellisch recommending, but it would save space and a subhead if you could cite the page number with a "d" as in 85d, with, of course, the appropriate note at the top of the index.. Iris Ailin-Pyzik ibap@crystalsys.com Debra Lindblom wrote: > Hi everyone; hope you can help with this question -- > > I am indexing a book with an eight-page glossary (about 60 terms). > Should I index each term in the glossary? > > Mulvany (Indexing Books) says: as a general rule, the contents of the > bibliography and glossary are not indexed. However, if the back matter is > lengthy, it may be helpful to readers to cite in the index the presence of the > glossary. > > Wellisch (Indexing from A to Z) says: The presence of a glossary should be > indexed, and the terms defined in it (which will almost inevitably be employed > in the text and thus have index entries) should also be indexed, preferably by > a subheading "defined." > > How do all of you handle glossaries? Should I just ask the editor for her > preference? > > Thank you, > Debbie Lindblom > alindblom@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Question re: glossaries In-Reply-To: <52b686e2.367e9e63@aol.com> Debbie, yes, ask your editor about the glossary entries. I have one publisher who never wants the entries indexed but likes to have an entry for the glossary itelf in the index. I have another who uses very lengthy glossaries and wants every term indexed. Sometimes there appear terms in these glossaries that are nowhere to be found in the text. We've come to an agreement that I get $1 more per glossary page as there are usually about 50 entries per page, though it goes very quickly. I'm also to read the definitions in case there is some other indexable term within, and there often is. For yet another publisher, the same thing goes, but they will not agree to pay more for glossary pages. I gave up arguing. It was a take it leave it scenario. I took it. Then I work for someone else who decides on a book by book basis and I always have to ask as she never remembers to tell me what she wants. Ah, life as an indexer. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:49:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Question re: glossaries In-Reply-To: <199812211418.r7t7nb.4uc.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 02:15 PM 12/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >Hi everyone; hope you can help with this question -- > >I am indexing a book with an eight-page glossary (about 60 terms). >Should I index each term in the glossary? That's usually a matter of house style. I have some clients who do want glossary entries indexed with a subhead of "defined" or "definition". Some want no entries for glossary items at all. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:41:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re: Question re: glossaries Debbie, I would definitely ask the editor for her preference. As a general rule, we don't index glossaries for our computer imprints but do index them for our general reference titles if the editor requests it. When the editor does request that the glossary be indexed, I index each individual term. Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Question re: glossaries Author: Debra Lindblom at internet Date: 12/21/98 2:15 PM Hi everyone; hope you can help with this question -- I am indexing a book with an eight-page glossary (about 60 terms). Should I index each term in the glossary? Mulvany (Indexing Books) says: as a general rule, the contents of the bibliography and glossary are not indexed. However, if the back matter is lengthy, it may be helpful to readers to cite in the index the presence of the glossary. Wellisch (Indexing from A to Z) says: The presence of a glossary should be indexed, and the terms defined in it (which will almost inevitably be employed in the text and thus have index entries) should also be indexed, preferably by a subheading "defined." How do all of you handle glossaries? Should I just ask the editor for her preference? Thank you, Debbie Lindblom alindblom@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:14:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: psychology of indexing In-Reply-To: <199812211833.NAA04514@mail4.bellsouth.net> I, too, am a gourmand when it comes to "working music," rather than a gourmet. I recently got a five-disk changer for my CD player, which can supply almost a whole working day's music, and I load it up in the morning with an eclectic assortment and then just let it play. I never change my mind partway through and substitute CDs. (I guess it's a game I play with myself--) But I have rather a large collection of CDs, and the array is likely to consist of practically anything. Lessee... Today, it's Borodin's string quartets, Jethro Tull, Bachbusters (Bach played on synthesizer), Telemann, and Bob Seger. That's pretty typical, I guess. I'm also a junky of catholic tastes when it comes to films, but I haven't figured out a way to watch old movies while I index -- not and get it done properly! Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |LOL, Lynn! I listen to all kinds of music while indexing, |different kinds for |different parts of the indexing process. Mostly classical these days. If I |don't have music on, my mind wanders. It can have words, but only very |familiar ones. Strangely, the only exception to this is that when |I'm checking |back through the text for items I missed, I can't have any music |on! And when |I'm doing a fast-and-furious edit, I usually listen to very loud |70s-80s dance |music (I play the tapes from when I used to DJ). Believe it or not, I |concentrate better that way. | |Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:50:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: scripture indexes To those of you who have done scripture indexes, Do you always include all the references in the index? If you leave some out, which ones do you leave out? (What rules do you use?) The book I am currently working on has scripture references which I might place in several categories: 1. quoted verses 2. quoted phrases or single words: ..."For God so loved the world" (John 3:16)... 3. paraphrased verse (or portion): Since God loves us so much (John 3:16), we need to consider the opportunities he gives us. 4. a verse which is commented on or explained 5. see references: God loves us. (See John 3:16) In most of the books I have done, I have included all the scripture; however, if I run out of space for this one, I am thinking of leaving out verses in categories 3 and 5. I would appreciate your opinions. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:33:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Message headers and reply addresses I will pass along the following, which may not apply to all mail readers, but does now seem to work for me with Netscape 4.5. There have been some comments about people trying to reply privately, and hitting their reply button, and having it go to the list. I have found that with header options set to short or full or dual (more on how to do this below), that reply or reply-all goes to the list, and never directly to the individual submitting the message. In these cases, the header includes a "reply-to" line, and that is the only place the replies go. However, if you set header options to "internet style" you get a header from the individual who sent the message, and reply-all gets you both the individual and the list. Remember - what action you get may depend on which mail reader you use. You may have to fiddle with yours, and you may have to change mail filters if you are currently using them. But if you want the option to automatically have the message go back to the individual who sent it, you need the header option which does not have the "reply-to". You will have to check this out for your software. But for Netscape 4.5 (and probably other versions) this requires you to put SET INDEX-L IETFHDR in the body of a message addressed to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu How to change these settings: The following commands should all be sent to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Do NOT, REPEAT DO NOT send these to the normal mailing list posting address INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU - NO!NO! No subject line is necessary, and they will be ignored in any case. I believe case is irrelevant. Send one of the following lines (shown in UPPERCASE), in the body of the message, as appropriate to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu QUERY INDEX-L To determine what your current settings are. HELP INDEX-L Get a list of commands e-mailed to you. SET INDEX-L FULLHDR Gets full headers, but this doesn't help in Netscape. All replies go to "reply-to" address. SET INDEX-L SHORTHDR I believe is the default. All replies go to "reply-to" address. SET INDEX-L IETFHDR Reply goes to author of message, reply-all goes to list and author. This may be what you want, but you need to remember to delete one or the other depending on where you want it to go or not go. SET INDEX-L DUALHDR Gets some extra header information dumped into the message, but has the same problem with having a "reply-to" address. Iris Ailin-Pyzik ibap@crystalsys.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:45:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Subscribing to Index-L Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: initial caps (was: psychology of indexing) In-Reply-To: <199812180505.XAA16636@mixcom.mixcom.com> Besides the visual issue Dick mentioned, you can also lose meaning another way, by blurring distinctions: being [simple existence] Being [existential sense] [*Please* don't anybody ask me to explain the difference; Continental philosophy ain't my bag.] apple [fruit] Apple [computer company] >so I just give 'em whichever they want. Like Mike, that's what I do if the editor *really* wants it that way, but I usually at least give the arguments for doing otherwise. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: See more specific topics (was: psychology of indexing) In-Reply-To: <199812180505.XAA16636@mixcom.mixcom.com> >3) See more specific topics throughout this index. This is a pet peeve of >mine. I don't think that this should EVER be used as an entry because all >it says to the index user is, "Think harder." If that's all that's going to >be there, just don't put in an entry! I agree that the index you're looking >at sounds frustrating to use, which means that it is obviously not a very >good index. I can think of situations in which this could useful/appropriate. What if you have a very general discussion of Europe (so you'll want an entry for Europe), but you also have discussions of all the countries in Europe. I would opt for "See also specific countries," rather than listing them all. In some situations, unlike the one Rachel described, one can assume that the intended audience won't have to think that hard to figure out the other entries (at least the ones they're interested in). Obviously, you wouldn't do it that way for a grade-school textbook. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: publisher w/ Mac system In-Reply-To: <199812190504.XAA03334@mixcom.mixcom.com> >This is certainly true, but if it's an older Mac system it won't be able to >read a DOS-formatted disk. I've had lots of Mac systems, all the way back to the puny 40 Mb Mac Plus. All of 'em could handle DOS disks just fine. They all came with cross-platform software for just that purpose. >Before I had MS Word, I sent one editor a RTF and she didn't understand how to >open it on her Mac. This reminds me of the time an editor told me her computer couldn't handle my disk. Turns out her PC told her the disk was unreadable but didn't tell her it was because it was a Mac disk. Once I told her, she was able to handle it. Since then, I've always written on the disk label "Mac disk," even though my disks all have their formatting type printed on them when I get 'em. >It took me about 9 indexes for one company sent by FedEx ($15 a pop plus >the disk and the paper and the ink and the 2 days lost that could have been >extra time to work on the index) to finally convince them to TRY letting me >send them an attached file. My tactic is to say, "Most of my clients are now getting their indexes by e-mail. Would you like me to send you a test file to see if this can work for us, too?" Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Radio vs. coffee I just discovered something that might help other late-night-ers (or should I say all-night-ers?). When I had to be up real late or all night to meet a deadline, I used to consume scary quantities of coffee. One night I tried listening to my favorite radio station (if you're in Milwaukee and you care, it's 106.9) and skipped the coffee altogether. Although I'd feared the music would be distracting, it wasn't, and the music kept me even more alert than the coffee had. I *think* the music (alternative rock) even helped establish a brisk pace, although I may be imagining that part. Anybody else have this experience? There's only one song I absolutely have to stop and listen/sing along to: "Walkin' on the Sun," by Smash Mouth. I also use the technique of giving myself small rewards after a long chapter's worth of indexing, such as playing computer games for one minute, putting lotion on my hands, fantasizing, checking e-mail, or whatever. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing