From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 1-JUL-1998 15:08:16.66 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806A" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:44:33 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9806A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:39:45 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: names in subject indexes I am currently indexing a book on health economics, where I am required to do just a subject index - no separate author index. At various points throughout the book individual authors discuss the ideas of other authors, so I have felt it necessary to include the authors of chapters in the index, plus other mentions in the text - but in a very selective manner. In addition I have these entries: "Aronson, Johnson and Lambert (AJL) decomposition method" "Kakwani, Wagstaff and van Doorslaer (KWV) formula" The first I have also inverted in the form "decomposition method, Aronson, Johnson and Lambert (AJL)", but I don't see any reason to cross-refer from the second and third names in these headings. They belong in an author index, and since there isn't one, then it's just too bad, they're out. In addition, if it had been referred to in the text as "Kakwani et al formula" then I would have indexed it that way. I don't see any problem in using "et al" in an index. My aim in devising index entries is to put the index user first - this is a highly specialised subject area, with it's own jargon, and I always try to find entries that are relevant and that will be used by readers of the book. When experts are discussing their work amongst themselves they are likely to use similar jargon, but probably in a more shortened form eg "Aronson decomposition method", but are just including the second and third authors in the written text for completeness. The whole subject of including authors in subject indexes is a rather "woolly" area, and we have to take several factors into account - including the publisher's preferences, target audience, subject specialty etc, and each book (and index) needs individual on-the-job evaluation. Liza Weinkove ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 03:38:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Summer Web Workshops Still Open Arlington Courseware will conduct three workshops about the World Wide Web (WWW) this summer designed for the beginner and slightly more advanced user. Two sessions of each workshop are still open. All three workshops are conducted entirely by HTML mail.* *** NEW *** DYNAMIC DUO WORKSHOP: XML & DYNAMIC HTML The Dynamic Duo Workshop: XML & Dynamic HTML is a six week workshop that introduces the beginner and somewhat more advanced user to the Extensible Markup Language (XML) and dynamic HyperText Markup Language (HTML). The cost of the workshop is $30. For additional information, see the Dynamic Duo Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/duo.html TUNE IN THE NET: GLOBAL REACH FOR THE 21st CENTURY This is the sequel to Make the Link, but may be taken independently by the more experienced beginner or intermediate user. This eight week workshop concentrates on Internet interactivity and assisting the more experienced user in making his or her Web pages into a standout interactive site. It covers prototyping Web pages with page generators and site builders, making HTML forms, using client-side image maps, customizing pages with frames and HTML 4.0, making content interactive with layers, dynamic HTML, Cascading Style Sheets (CSS), scripting with JavaScript, and utilizing push media, such as Netscape Netcaster and Microsoft Active Channels. The cost is $40. For additional information, see the Tune In the Net Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/tune.html *** FOR THE BEGINNER *** MAKE THE LINK WORKSHOP: WORLD WIDE WEB FOR EVERYONE This eight week workshop focuses on how to gain maximum advantage from the Web. It covers how to gain access to the WWW, linking to and interpreting URLs, distinguishing between different browsers, navigating and searching, organizing your bookmarks, designing your own home page with HTML and installing it on a server, utilizing principles of good Web design, and choosing between and using HTML editors. The cost is $20. For further information, see the Make the Link Workshop home page: http://www.bearfountain.com/arlington/links.html The cost of all three workshops taken together is $80. HOW TO SIGN UP Two Dynamic Duo Workshops are scheduled for this summer: June Session June 8 - July 17 July Session June 29 - August 21 Two Tune In the Net Workshops are also scheduled: June Session Week of June 1st. - July 24 July Session June 29 - August 21 In addition, two Make the Link Workshops are scheduled: June Session Week of June 1st. - July 24 July Session July 6 - August 14 Sign up for ONE session of each workshop only unless you plan to take it more than once. To sign up, please send an email message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message, include the words: to subscribe to: ------------------ ---------------- subscribe duo-jun the June session of Dynamic Duo subscribe duo-jul the July session of Dynamic Duo subscribe tune-jun the June session of Tune In the Net subscribe tune-jul the July session of Tune In the Net subscribe links-jun the June session of Dynamic Duo subscribe links-jul the July session of Dynamic Duo This will automatically put you on the mailing list for more information about each workshop, and you will receive an acknowledgment with the particulars about signing up, and unsubscribing, should you decide not to participate. If you have any difficulty with this procedure or fail to receive a response, please send email to the address in the signature line. * A plain ASCII text version is also available. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Dynamic Duo Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:25:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandra Topping Subject: Re: names in subject indexes Dear Liza: Under the circumstances you describe, you do NOT need to index the authors' names, and indeed, the author names are more of a red herring than anything. "Decomposition method" is what should go in the index. Mentioning the authors' names in the text is merely a writing device. Sandy (I do lots of psych and social sciences indexes) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:14:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: technology's effects on indexing 1 June 1998 I've been following with interest the latest conversation about methods of scanning in bibliographies for later use as index entries. I guess it's inevitable that the technology we use eventually starts to change not only our work but how we *think* about our work. But I want to point out--in case it's necessary--that technology (scanners, printers, computers, software) consists of tools to a particular end, not an end in itself. Their best uses have to do with saving us time in doing our main task--which is indexing. And indexing--at *its* best--is an *intellectual* art, not simply data-entry. So, while Carol Roberts sagely scans in bibliographical entries, employing only the authors' names in the index while hiding the extraneous material in curly brackets, other people seem to start thinking of an index as being very like a bibliography--which it is *not*. A bibliographical citation gives all the basic information needed for locating a particular document, whereas a conceptual index analyzes the content of a book, providing a map to its ideas and to the persons mentioned in it. Even a names-only index directs readers to the pages on which material about those individuals can be found--a very different function from a bibliography. If there are many sub-entries under an individual's name, a names-only index can be a conceptual index as well (think of biographies, for example). I myself can't think of a main entry which would consist of two authors' names. For colleagues who have worked on the same project, I would probably index them as follows: Jones, Al: collaboration of, with Smith, 5; health of, 7; marriage of, 8; etc. Smith, Jill: collaboration of, with Jones, 5; education of, 8; etc. In a case in which Jones and Smith collaborated on *several* projects, and it was the *projects* that were important, rather than the collaboration, I would probably index them as follows: Jones, Al: and genome project, 5; on muscular distrophy, 10; on scientific method, 19 Smith, Jill: education of, 8; and genome project, 5 The basic principle, in my mind, is that readers expect to find information under each *individual* author's name, and that if two people are mentioned (and are worth indexing at all), each should be mentioned under his/her own name. What do you all think?--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer 212 Highland Avenue Madison, Wisconsin 53705 (608) 233-4559 pgottlie@facstaff.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: technology's effects on indexing In-Reply-To: "Laura M. Gottlieb" "technology's effects on indexing" (Jun 1, 9:14am) "The urgent necessity is for us to wake up to what is most fully human and unmachinelike in ourselves, rather than yield to an ever more strangling embrace with our machines." A good book about technology is changing how people think -- in general -- you should read "The Future Does Not Compute," by Stephen Talbott. This is one of the books that I mentioned in my Threading an Index presentations in Seattle, for those of who you attended. The book is published by O'Reilly & Associates; although I'm an ORA employee, my opinion of this book is my own. I can tell you, in fact, that the index for this book is pretty bad (author-written). However, I think the book is best read from cover to cover. You can access information about this book from O'Reilly's Web page: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/future/ . The quote at the top of this message is taken from that page. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:39:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melinda Davis Organization: Univ. of Tennessee College of Law Subject: Blank "index" books Once upon a time, several years ago, at a book store, I purchased a blank book which not only had nice lined pages, but wonderful A-Z tabbed pages and even a spine title (INDEX BOOK). It was the only one that the store had, or I would have stocked up. Even though I'd never seen such a treasure before, I presumed (silly me!) that there would be more later on. Naturally, I've never, ever seen another one at that store or any other, and the few times I've asked all I've gotten were blank looks! So since I think you all can at least can visualize what I'm describing, do any of you know where I can get more blank index books? Thanks. Melinda Davis davis@libra.law.utk.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:09:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rashidah Z. Hakeem" Subject: Re: Internet organised by library classifications, e.g. Dewey, UDC, LC In-Reply-To: <9805300801.AA23074@mecca.mecca.org> Try CyberDewey at: http://ivory.lm.com/~mundie/DDHC/CyberDewey.html and CyberStacks at: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~CYBERSTACKS/ On Sat, 30 May 1998, Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of any good sites that classify information on the Internet > according to a library classification scheme, for example Dewey Decimal > Classification, UDC and Library of COngress Classification? > > Glenda > > =================================== > Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne > Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring > http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal > Diagonal@bigpond.com > ******************************************************************************** Rashidah Z. Hakeem, M L S rzhakeem@mecca.mecca.org M E C C A (Memphis Educational Computer Connectivity Alliance) http://www.mecca.org/ LeMoyne-Owen College voice: (901) 942-6227 fax: (901) 942-6272 ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:44:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Rates Redux I put this up for discussion last week, but had no takers. I hope some folks will feel like chiming in, either on the list or in email. I just completed a difficult, complex, and heavy index for a sociology book, and feel like I really undercharged for this project. While the indexable length was fairly short (about 425 pages), I had to produce two indexes (author and subject). Furthermore, the bibliography was not in standard APA style (a surprise, given the subject and the publisher)...all the author names were completely spelled out. Silly as it may sound, checking the bibliography for authors initials is bad enough, but having to type out the complete name in each instance added considerably to the time the job took. The previous author index had used all the first names, and my contact insisted that I keep to this style. I averaged about 12 entries per page (and it would have been more, except for time constraints), between the two indexes, but I was only able to negotiate a rate of $3.50 per page. The reason I accepted the job without first seeing some pages (so I would know the depth of indexing required) is that this is a fairly regular client and previous, similar books had not been so complex. He assured me this was just like all the others, blah, blah, blah. There's nothing I can do THIS time, but in future I want to get paid fairly for these kinds of jobs. How do experienced indexers charge for a job of this magnitude? I actually ENJOY doing these kinds of projects, but not when I feel underpaid and pressed on time. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:08:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing All - At the recent (and presumably soon-to-become-legendary) ASI Conference in Seattle, John Hedtke delivered an interesting and upbeat keynote address on Successful Freelancing. Mr. Hedtke is an engaging speaker. Were he a recruiter for the armed services I am confident that many in the audience would have rushed forward in an enthusiasm to enlist. In his talk he touched upon the ostensible difference between the relative security of the in-house indexer and the unpredictable world of the freelancer. His analogy, if I recall it correctly, was that of an island (the in-house situation) set in a turbulent ocean (the freelance milieu). The alternatives that he outlined were the safety of direct employment versus the uncertainty of navigating the freelance sea. It is to this scenario that I would like to address these brief remarks. It doubtless was true, long ago, that in-house employment was secure, and that freelancing was risky. The common wisdom was that if one did not burn with the entrepreneurial imperative one had better play it safe and find steady employment. But that was then, and this is now, and we need..... Ahh, I love this!.... a new paradigm. To carry forward Mr. Hedtke's analogy, I suggest that these islands of relative safety are shrinking dramatically, and more and more in-house indexers are clinging to smaller and smaller bits of rocky real estate. As these traditional refuges become vanishingly small, what remains is going to look less like a safe haven and more like turf battles in an Antarctic seal rookery. In another context, one might ask: How many indexers can dance on the head on an in-house pin? As in-house indexers are being washed off their perches by these cost-cutting tsunami, I think it might be a good idea to give up the idea of clinging like grim death to this illusory security, and learn to swim. Reverse the lessons of paleontology, and go from being exclusively land animals to becoming amphibians. Prosper in both environments. Develop gills and you have nothing to fear from the sea (except, of course, bigger and toothier critters than yourself). During the years that I have been freelancing, I have seen many publishers merge or simply disappear. The impact on their in-house people must have been terrible. But swimming around in my little freelance sea I have been relatively unaffected by these catastrophes. After all, very few fish drowned when the Titanic went down. To paraphrase the song: "Clients may crumble, publishers may tumble, freelancing is here to stay..." Now, THAT is real security! One is tempted to recall the Aesop parable of the wolf and the farm dog. The wolf, lean and hungry, living by his wits in the forest, meets a farm dog. The wolf notices that the dog is well-fed and has a heavy coat, and asks him about his life. "Oh", said the dog, "I live on the farm in the valley. I help my laster herd sheep, and warn the family of danger, and play with the farmer's children. And I sleep in the warm barn, and have plenty of food." The wolf asks the dog if he, too, could live at the farm and have these benefits. The dog agrees, and as they set off the wolf notices a worn ring in the fur around the dog's neck. ":What is that worn ring in your fur?" he asks. "Oh, that!" says the dog, 'That's where I wear my master's collar." And the wolf turned, sadly, and returned to the forest. So take heart, you in-house indexers working under extreme pressure, to impossible deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay. Learn to freelance! Then you can work under extreme pressure, to impossible deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay! And you also can pay your own overhead, contribute to FICA, search for affordable medical insurance, select any twelve hours a day that you choose to work, clean the cat-hair from your mouse (cats and mice still don't get along), and wonder if you ever can schedule a four-week vacation. The benefits are obvious! But perhaps less obvious is that if you are reasonably competent, reasonably diligent, willing to bend to clients' crises, and impeccably honest, you always will have work. And all you wolves out there in the freelance forest: you also have probably the best peer group any professional could wish for. Bless you all. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:27:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Rates Redux Hi Sonsie, I try to view the sort of project you describe as the other side of the pendulum (projects that come out a bit ahead) for the same client. In other words, try to take the long view: some days you make out well on a per-page rate, some days you come out a little short. In the long run, if this is a good client and this was an unusual project for this client, I wouldn't stir up clear waters. Having said that, however, I should also clarify that I try to specify in my confirmation letter the number of estimated entries per indexable page, because this gives me a line of defense should I have to renegotiate a fee on a poorly estimated project. For example, I might estimate the cost of such as job as "$3.50-3.75 per indexable page, assuming 5-8 entries per indexable page." (where I count density of entries by the number of total LOCATORS, not final entries)--i.e., I try to account for the variability of the number of hits per page, which I can't generally estimate as accurately as one might wish, by having a price range and a specified number of entries. I try to build some flexibility into my estimate price, especially if I think the project may be different from other projects for a specific client. That way if I have a lot of slow entries or more than about 8 entries per page, I can renegotiate with the author/editor before I finish the project (or, you can adjust the density of indexing if you find out the budget is really tight and there's no room for better compensation for the actual level of work). In the past, I have found authors and editors receptive to renegotiating the fee if they are contacted before the end of the project (like after the first few chapters have been indexed). After the project is finished, I don't like to have to ask for more money--I wouldn't like someone to do that to me either. I do have a few clients who trust me to bill each job at a different rate based on the amount of actual work involved, and we have an agreed sliding scale rather than a fixed rate I charge them. This is rare, perhaps, but a great pleasure as I always know I will be appropriately compensated for each job. (Note that this does require some restraint, as you can't charge top price for the occasionally easy index.) For other clients I am glad to take the balance out over the long-term because that works out just as well and is easier for their bookkeeping. I'm curious how other handle this. How many indexers actually bill higher than their estimate if that is what is required? (I'm loathe to do this, because I hate when contractors do it to me!) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:05:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: Rates Redux Sonsie, I just learned from Carol Roberts at the ASI conference, that I need to charge more for my scholarly projects, too. She would definitely say you got shafted on this one. She has a nice formula (hope I get this right), where she charges $3.50 (I think) for densities of 5-8 entries per page, and jacks it up when the average goes higher. In your case, I'd say at least $4.00 per page, and maybe more since it called for a separate name/author index. Carol seems to always insist on seeing the pages before committing to a rate. I just started doing this with a new client who called up the other day. It worked nicely, as the book turned out to be pretty dense. I just gave her a range over the phone, and then confirmed a rate via email after I saw the book. Good luck. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Change: A bend in the road is not the end of the road... Unless you fail to make the turn." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:37:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 04:27 PM 6/1/1998 EDT, Barbara Cohen wrote: >I try to view the sort of project you describe as the other side of the >pendulum (projects that come out a bit ahead) for the same client. In other >words, try to take the long view: some days you make out well on a per-page >rate, some days you come out a little short. In the long run, if this is a >good client and this was an unusual project for this client, I wouldn't stir >up clear waters. It's interesting...the first few projects I did for them, I charged $3.00 a page and was quite happy with my hourly rate--and they were quite happy with my fee! The last couple have been pretty tough, and the most they were willing to do was increase my bare-bones rate to $3.50. So far, it's a wash, but this is the second underpaid job for them. If the next one looks similar, I am going to ask for a proper rate and if I can't get it, I will pass on the job. This is not an A+ client for me (it's one I'm willing to sacrifice if necessary), so the prospect is not as scary as it might be. >Having said that, however, I should also clarify that I try to specify in my >confirmation letter the number of estimated entries per indexable page, >because this gives me a line of defense should I have to renegotiate a fee on >a poorly estimated project. For example, I might estimate the cost of such as >job as "$3.50-3.75 per indexable page, assuming 5-8 entries per indexable >page." (where I count density of entries by the number of total LOCATORS, not >final entries)--i.e., I try to account for the variability of the number of >hits per page, which I can't generally estimate as accurately as one might >wish, by having a price range and a specified number of entries. I had over 4000 ENTRIES in the two indexes, and probably at least double that if you are talking about locators! If that's the criterion, I really did get a good going over at the cleaners. >In the past, I have found authors and editors receptive to renegotiating the >fee if they are contacted before the end of the project (like after the first >few chapters have been indexed). After the project is finished, I don't like >to have to ask for more money--I wouldn't like someone to do that to me >either. I agree. If I could have renegotiated, I would have; I did all that up-front, so to speak, and was stuck with the rate I got. I wouldn't think of tacking on extra at the end unless the situation was extremely unusual and I'd gotten the go-ahead to do it. Otherwise, I feel like it's my error in judgment and they got a free ride...this time. >I'm curious how other handle this. How many indexers actually bill higher than >their estimate if that is what is required? (I'm loathe to do this, because I >hate when contractors do it to me!) I've never actually had to do this, but I guess I have been pretty lucky. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I SHOULD have done this on occasion but lacked the courage to do it. As you say, I'd hate to have it done to me, unless it were an extremely unusual situation. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:59:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Rates Redux On my most recent project (second one for the same author/publisher), I asked for a 10% sample for rate setting and got exactly 2 pages. It appeared to be similar to the previous book I had done for him; so I bid the same rate, with the caveat that the rate was subject to change if the entire work differed significantly in density from the sample pages. Turns out that the original quote was accurate; but I felt comfortable that I had an escape route if there were surprises when I saw the final page proofs. I also did this for another project (also for an author) who had me use the first edition in estimating the page rate for the second edition index (manuscript not finished at that point). I used the same contingency bid process, and it worked out fine. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:21:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Rates Redux There is a piece missing here. The project was 425 pages at $3.50 per page, but how many hours did you put in? How many pages per hour did that translate to? To what hourly rate? That's my bottom line for any project: what hourly rate did it translate to? At $3.50 per page, I'd want to do at least 10 pages per hour, and certainly no fewer than 6-7. On a large unfamiliar project, I try to do a sample to establish the hourly rate before I accept the job. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:58:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Van Huss Subject: indexing work I have just joined this indexer's discussion group and could use any suggestions you might have on how you get your first indexing job. I am just starting as a freelance indexer, and could use some direction on who to market for indexing opportunities. How did you acquire your first indexing job? If anyone, for one reason or another has to turn away work, I am available. Pamela Van Huss vanhussp@citrine.indstate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:37:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 04:05 PM 6/1/1998 -0500, Joanne E. Clendenen wrote: >I just learned from Carol Roberts at the ASI conference, that I need to >charge more for my scholarly projects, too. She would definitely say >you got shafted on this one. She has a nice formula (hope I get this >right), where she charges $3.50 (I think) for densities of 5-8 entries >per page, and jacks it up when the average goes higher. In your case, >I'd say at least $4.00 per page, and maybe more since it called for a >separate name/author index. I think Carole has posted about her system, and in fact I believe I printed it out, but the note has disappeared. If she figures locators rather than just entries, my situation is even worse than I'd thought. There were about 12 ENTRIES per page, but probably about LOCATORS per page taken all together. (Obviously one page can only have one page number, but I had something like 8000 total page locators/references in the two indexes, which is how I came up with 20 per page.) =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:06:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 06:21 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >There is a piece missing here. The project was 425 pages at $3.50 per >page, but how many hours did you put in? How many pages per hour did that >translate to? To what hourly rate? > >That's my bottom line for any project: what hourly rate did it translate >to? At $3.50 per page, I'd want to do at least 10 pages per hour, and >certainly no fewer than 6-7. I don't usually keep time records anymore, so I can't be absolutely accurate, but my best guess is that I spent about 70 hours on this job. That translates into something around 6 pages per hour...quite a bit slower than my usual rate of indexing. In terms of hourly rates, I try never to work for less than $30 an hour. This project came in at around $20 an hour. Not only is that substantially lower than I want, but the "rush factor" made it particularly difficult. It was not really urgent enough that I felt comfortable asking for extra money (not that I would have gotten it from this particular client), but given the parameters of the job, it was not enough time to produce a really great index...a perfectly good one, however. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:28:08 -0700 Reply-To: jthomas3@csulb.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Organization: California State University Long Beach, Library Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals I'm indexing a book on women and AIDS. The author discusses something called the Pediatric Aids Clinical Trials Group 076. ONCE she used the entire name (which I have subsequently discovered should have the word "protocol" in the penultimate position). Every other mention of this clinical trial has been referred to as the "076 trials." I have put a "see" reference at the number, allowing it to alphabetize before "A." But the discussion today has made me wonder if I should also enter 076 as if the numbers were spelled out. But which numbers? Seventy-six? Ought seventy-six? Zero seventy-six? All of them? Please advise. BTW, there are apparently many other clinical trials group protocols. Thank goodness my author is concerned with only one! -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:35:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 04:06 PM 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >I don't usually keep time records anymore, I'm fond of a shareware program called TraxTime, available from http://www.spudcity.com/. It's a timeclock that sits on your desktop and lets you punch in/out of projects. It's available as shareware, then costs $20 if you decide you like it. I keep times on all projects, though I don't roll up totals across projects. Partly it's a matter of seeing how much I'm making on a given project, and partly it's a way to see how much work I've done for the current day. I figure six billable hours is a full day's work, so I gauge my fatigue level against the actual hours I've put in. If I'm getting tired but see I've only done three hours, I figure it's time to take a break (read "nap") and then continue. If I'm tired and I've done over six hours, it's time to call it a day. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:45:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Rates Redux In-Reply-To: <199806020035.UAA24136@camel16.mindspring.com> I picked up TraxTime at Dick's suggestion about 6 months ago, and it has been great - right now I have a client who needs six online indexes, and although they are for the same project, he wants the hours tracked separately. TraxTime has been keeping me sane, and it seems to be compatible with everything I run on my machine! Jan Wright At 08:35 PM 6/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 04:06 PM 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: >>I don't usually keep time records anymore, > >I'm fond of a shareware program called TraxTime, available from >http://www.spudcity.com/. > >It's a timeclock that sits on your desktop and lets you punch in/out of >projects. It's available as shareware, then costs $20 if you decide you >like it. > >I keep times on all projects, though I don't roll up totals across >projects. Partly it's a matter of seeing how much I'm making on a given >project, and partly it's a way to see how much work I've done for the >current day. I figure six billable hours is a full day's work, so I gauge >my fatigue level against the actual hours I've put in. If I'm getting >tired but see I've only done three hours, I figure it's time to take a >break (read "nap") and then continue. If I'm tired and I've done over six >hours, it's time to call it a day. > >Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:46:32 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: New mailing list for Australian Indexers A new electronic mailing list targeted at Australian indexers (others are welcome) has been started by the Australian Libraries and Information Association (ALIA). It will be moderated by Dwight Walker. Information about the list (and other alianet lists) is at http://www.alia.org.au/alianet/listservs To join, write to listproc@alia.org.au with the following message (but use your own name): subscribe aliaINDEXERS Susan Bloggs (Leave the subject line blank) Indexers can also subscribe through the AusSI Website at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi Jonathan Jermey AusSI Webmaster ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:28:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Rates Redux Sonsie, Dick, and others, I try to keep track of my time, too, because I am always curious about the per-hour work rate on a project. If it runs too low consistently for a client, that's a poke for me to get around to raising my rates (which I tend to drag my feet about) or pass the client along to someone else. I use a time sheet based on a system developed by a production weaver, so I track my "production" time and my "administrative" time each week. I have a paper copy, not on-screen, but I find it an effective system for how I work. (I also have an individual project record sheet based on something someone once recommended to me at an ASI meeting.) Each week I know just how many hours of productive (i.e., indexing) time I have spent versus how many hours I have been assembling bids, paying bills, designing a brochure, etc. (And I know exactly how many hours I spent on a particular index.) Aside to Dick: Wish I would/could stop after six hours.... I find that my average indexing time per day is closer to eight, with an addditional hour or so of administrative stuff. No wonder I feel the need for a vacation! Do you work 6 "indexing" hours a day 5 days a week, or 7 days a week?? Aside about pages per hour: I was interested to see an average of 10 pages per hour mentioned. Most of my projects average closer to 7-8 pages per hour, with dense entries (I would say I average closer to 7-10 entries per page than to the magic "5 entries per page"). I do a lot of scholarly books, reference books, and so forth. My least dense indexes are often my most difficult reads (Buddhist philosophy, for example), so for them the final length of the index doesn't reflect as accurately how long it takes to create the entries. BTW, on my bill (also on my "index transmittal memo," which gives the details about the index format and disk) I write out the density of entries per page as well as the number of indexable pages for the project. I think I do this for myself as much as for the client, as it provides a handy reference when quoting the next project for that client. Each bill sits in the front position in the file folder at the end of a project, so I can quickly find my last price when quoting the next one.... (This system I picked up from a client, who always sorts out the project files, throws away duplicate materials, and orders information systematically before retiring a file. It takes about 5 minutes and saves lots of time when searching for stuff in old files.) I agree with Carol Roberts that most scholarly indexing projects are underfunded. On the other hand, the books are generally well written, interesting to read, and less mind-numbing than some other projects I have done. So, "you pays your money, you takes your chances." I feel like I should charge more for the mind-numbing projects sometimes! I do a variety of tasks (I also copy-edit), which is one way I combat mental fatigue from indexing straight through day after day. I also find the money from copy-editing to be a little less variable from project to project, and I work for people who pay pretty well at this point. So that helps even out the income peaks and valleys. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:52:35 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: WORD FOR WORD Book Indexing Subject: Time tracker (was Re: Rates Redux) Richard Evans wrote: > > At 04:06 PM 6/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > >I don't usually keep time records anymore, > > I'm fond of a shareware program called TraxTime, available from > http://www.spudcity.com/. > > It's a timeclock that sits on your desktop and lets you punch in/out of > projects. It's available as shareware, then costs $20 if you decide you > like it. > Does anyone know of a good shareware program that works on a MAC? Spud City only makes Windows stuff. Thanks. -- ========================================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com WORD FOR WORD Indexing and Editing Services www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:21:59 -0500 Reply-To: lfetters@caller.infi.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Fetters Organization: InfiNet Subject: Time tracking software Another time tracking program that I found recently is called TimeTools. It has a stopwatch, a timer, an alarm, etc. It costs $7.00 to register the program. It's available from: http://www.global.co.za/~linearis/ Linda Fetters ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:44:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 07:28 AM 6/2/98 EDT, you wrote: > >Aside to Dick: Wish I would/could stop after six hours.... I find that my >average indexing time per day is closer to eight, with an addditional hour or >so of administrative stuff. No wonder I feel the need for a vacation! Do you >work 6 "indexing" hours a day 5 days a week, or 7 days a week?? Depends on the workload. From April 1 to just before the conference, I worked 7 days a week for 6-10 hours a day. At one point, I had five books in house and had to cancel a sixth. Since the conference, I've been working 1-2 books at a time for 4-6 hours per day and actually taking a day off here and there. Most commonly, I work six hours or less, seven days a week. > >Aside about pages per hour: I was interested to see an average of 10 pages per >hour mentioned. Most of my projects average closer to 7-8 pages per hour I mentioned 10 pph as a sample minimum for a $3.50/page job. My actual averages range from 6 pph for one set of corporate software manuals to about 20 pph for general-purpose computer books to the occasional excursion into the 30-40 pph range for computer books with lots of procedures and illustrations. (Before anyone has a hissy over those figures, computer books are very very different from most any other books you will ever index and I've been doing them a long time. I've got it down to an assembly-line science.) I rarely, if ever, pay attention to entries per page. It is not uncommon in computer books to have a 10-page spread showing sample code for some routine. The entire ten pages may merit only one or two entries. A few such spreads in one book can really skew the average entries per page. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:02:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Binder Subject: Re: Time tracker On 6/2/98 7:55 AM, Dan Connolly (connolly@neca.com) wrote: >Does anyone know of a good shareware program that works on a MAC? Spud City >only makes Windows stuff. Thanks. Check out http://www.mauisoftware.com/. Maui Software has a product called TimeSlice, which comes in several versions (including a Lite one for only $25). For two years, I've used TimeTracker, which is an earlier incarnation of their TimeSlice Lite, and it's extremely slick. You can define multiple projects and different task categories and use multiple files or put everything in one file. TimeSlice comes in both Mac and Windows versions. Kate ------------------------------------- Kate Binder, Ursa Editorial Design UrsaDesign@aol.com http://members.aol.com/ursadesign ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 02:03:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: indexing work In-Reply-To: <199806020405.XAA20714@mixcom.mixcom.com> >I have just joined this indexer's discussion group and could use any >suggestions you might have on how you get your first indexing job. I am >just starting as a freelance indexer, and could use some direction on who >to market for indexing opportunities. How did you acquire your first >indexing job? > >If anyone, for one reason or another has to turn away work, I am >available. > Pamela, you didn't say what training you've had, whether you have some sample practice indexes, etc., so I'm not sure how to direct you. But I do have some marketing tips for new/wannabe indexers, on my Web site (see my sig below). I hope that'll give you a start, anyway. A bit of advice about getting referrals: Get to know some experienced indexers, and be prepared to show samples of your indexing. Are you an ASI member, and is there an ASI chapter near you? Attending chapter meetings is an excellent way of making some good contacts. When indexers make referrals, they may be putting their reputation on the line, so my guess is that very few experienced indexers will direct their overflow to indexers they neither know nor whose work they've seen. I acquired my first two indexing jobs by telling everyone I could think of about my new business. One of those people happened to have a friend who was just finishing a book. Another person was an indexer I knew personally and who waited for a "beginner" index to send my way, bless her heart. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:49:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals In-Reply-To: <199806020405.XAA20714@mixcom.mixcom.com> >But the discussion today has made me wonder if I should also enter 076 >as if the numbers were spelled out. But which numbers? Seventy-six? >Ought seventy-six? Zero seventy-six? All of them? Please advise. > I would definitely cross-ref. from the number spelled out. And I would query the author about how the number is pronounced. It could also be pronounced "oh seventy-six." Often I don't have time to wait for the author's response to those sorts of queries, so I'd make a guess as to where to place the "076" entry and ask the author to indicate where to move it to if my guess is wrong. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:44:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Rates Redux In-Reply-To: <199806020405.XAA20714@mixcom.mixcom.com> >There's nothing I can do THIS time, but in future I want to get paid fairly >for these kinds of jobs. How do experienced indexers charge for a job of >this magnitude? I actually ENJOY doing these kinds of projects, but not when >I feel underpaid and pressed on time. Sonsie, are you SURE? This is just the kind of situation in which I will try to renegotiate the fee after the fact (something I talked about in my "negotiating with editors" roundtable). I will typically cite the figures you give (# of indexables per page) to make the case that the book was not as described. If the editor won't consider raising the rate after the fact, you might negotiate a higher rate for the next book in advance. Some editors will do this, although I wonder if it isn't unfair to that next author, whose pocket it comes out of, ultimately. For 12 indexables per page, I would want to get $5/page. I might not get it, but if I ask for that much, chances are I'll do considerably better than $3.50. Barbara Cohen wrote: >In the past, I have found authors and editors receptive to renegotiating the >fee if they are contacted before the end of the project (like after the first >few chapters have been indexed). After the project is finished, I don't like >to have to ask for more money--I wouldn't like someone to do that to me >either. > >I'm curious how other handle this. How many indexers actually bill higher than >their estimate if that is what is required? (I'm loathe to do this, because I >hate when contractors do it to me!) Although I agree that people don't like the rate to change after the job is done, I don't think that's a reason not to do it, *if* the editor made a mistake in describing the book. It may have been an honest mistake, but the editor in this case was way off, and I don't think the indexer should have to eat that or be apologetic about asking for the true value of the index. As for billing higher than the estimate, I must admit that I wouldn't simply bill higher, not without first reaching an agreement with the editor. As I was reminded at the ASI conference (I wish I could remember who said this--if you recognize yourself, please stand up), an estimate is an ESTIMATE not a bill. Sometimes there are very good reasons for going over budget. If I hired a contractor, I'd expect that person to notify me if the project looked to be going over budget, but I think it is considered acceptable for a final bill to be within 10 percent of the estimate. Has anyone else heard this figure? Joanne E. Clendenen wrote: >Carol seems to always insist on seeing the pages before committing to a >rate. I just started doing this with a new client who called up the >other day. It worked nicely, as the book turned out to be pretty >dense. I just gave her a range over the phone, and then confirmed a >rate via email after I saw the book. Fantastic, Joanne! What a pleasure to read that that technique worked for you. Yes, I guess I do insist on seeing the pages before being locked into a rate. Like Barbara, I quote a range. And Sonsie wrote again: >I think Carole has posted about her system, and in fact I believe I printed >it out, but the note has disappeared. If she figures locators rather than >just entries, my situation is even worse than I'd thought. If you mean me (Carol), my formula, such as it is, counts terms, not locators, if I understand you correctly. Allow me to spell this out a little better. When I'm able to look at a sample chapter before bidding (as opposed to setting the fee after I've begun indexing), I go through the pages and make a rough tally of indexable terms for each page as I get to it--just count 'em up, no actual indexing. This doesn't include cross-refs. If I can see that a discussion continues to the next page or next few pages, I only count it for the first page. If there's a break and it picks up again pages later, I count it again. Still with me? Then I simply divide that figure by the number of pages in the chapter to get the average number of terms per page. (Forgive me for spelling out the math in detail, but I learned at the "bidding and winning" workshop that some indexers, who shall remain nameless, are mathematically challenged. ;-) ) I don't bother to figure out the hourly rate, BTW, for a couple of reasons. (1) I hate keeping track of the time (so that means I should get one of those shareware time trackers). (2) My speed sometimes depends on lots of things that have nothing to do with the density of the material, things like boredom (uh oh, blasphemy!), the number of times my 6-yr-old comes into my office, whether I've just returned from a dance lesson (I think I'm going to include a "plug" for dancing, in every post--naw, just kidding), the time of day, etc. I prefer to have my rate depend on how fast I *should* be able to work (rather than my actual speed), which, for me, is most accurately captured by term-density. (3) I handle differences in expected speed for different kinds of books (e.g., how-to books vs. philosophy books) by adjusting the page rate. The rate that somebody quoted for me was for scholarly nonphilosophy books of 5-8 terms per page. For a nonceptual trade book with that many terms per page, I would charge less. HOWEVER, I do occasionally track my time, as a reality check. I think this is the longest message I've posted to Index-L! My apologies for being long-winded; I hope it was worth it to somebody. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:26:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Weiss Subject: spelling our numerals Thanks to all of you who sent comments and questions to regarding the issue of spelling out numerals. The real question, as some of you pointed out, was how do you pronounce the names of these entities: 11095 Viking Corp. (Does the name begin "eleven" of "one, one") 12300 Corp. (Does the name begin "twelve" or "one, two") I guess I was hoping someone would have a style manual or indexing handbook that we provide some insight on a general practice to follow. I thought about calling people who work for the groups listed above and asking them how to pronounce their names. The directory assistance operators in the cities in which these entities are located were unable to find a telephone number. Yellow page listings on the Internet didn't help either. Some of asked why the names of these entities appeared in a publication. The publisher I work for lists, on a weekly basis, the names of organizations which have been granted tax-exempt status by the IRS. The organizations above, along with other organizations with equally bizarre names, are title holding companies which have been granted tax-exempt status. ( Fascinating reading!!) Sue Weiss SWEISS@TAX.ORG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 06:55:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals In-Reply-To: <199806021332.GAA20080@powergrid.electriciti.com> When I have a numeral entry, I generally have the spelled-out number formatted to be sorted, but not to appear. For example, 1,2, 3-method would be (in Cindex): {One}1, 2, 3-method which would appear as Olney, George 1, 2, 3-method Orkney Islands Considering the discussion here, I will probably double post for a numeral entry before the A's. I am delighted I have not yet had to deal with a number beginning with zero and am eagerly staying tuned. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:06:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TAHUDOBA@AOL.COM Subject: Announcement: ASI Twin Cities Chapter meeting The Twin Cities Chapter of ASI will hold its annual meeting Saturday, June 13 10:30 - 12:00 Merriam Park Library St. Paul, MN Agenda includes announcing the results of the election of officers; reports from the Seattle conference, and planning meetings and events for the coming year. Everyone is Welcome! For more information, contact Terry Casey at (612) 699-6857. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:09:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: Blank "index" books In-Reply-To: <199806020403.AAA21267@calval-2.gsfc.nasa.gov> Melinda Davis writes: Once upon a time, several years ago, at a book store, I purchased a blank book which not only had nice lined pages, but wonderful A-Z tabbed pages and even a spine title (INDEX BOOK). It was the only one that the store had, or I would have stocked up. Even though I'd never seen such a treasure before, I presumed (silly me!) that there would be more later on. Naturally, I've never, ever seen another one at that store or any other, and the few times I've asked all I've gotten were blank looks! So since I think you all can at least can visualize what I'm describing, do any of you know where I can get more blank index books? Thanks. _______________ Well Melinda, the bad news is that I've never seen this type of book, but I can imagine how handy it would be. The good news is that you can easily *make* one very cheaply. Take any notebook you buy in the store with the type of lines you wish (wide, narrow, or college ruled) and then take Post-It Note Flags and attach them to the edges every few pages. Write the letters of the alphabet on the flags in permanent marker and Viola! you have an index book. The beauty of this is method rather than a pre-fab version, is that letters you know you won't use, or will have little use for, can get no pages or one page assigned to them, and you can pick the line ruling of your choice. I've used a version of this for my indexing, and it works wonderfully! Good luck. elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:09:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Why numerals In-Reply-To: <199806021337.GAA20394@powergrid.electriciti.com> Sorry to be such a yackety emailer, but: >11095 Viking Corp. (Does the name begin "eleven" of "one, one") >12300 Corp. (Does the name begin "twelve" or "one, two") > initially (and I forgot as the discussion continued) I wondered why a numeral address would be in an index in the first place. I can't imagine remembering an address to search for it in an index. Actually. An address should be what we are directing readers to. In this instance, I think users would be better served with an entry such as Addresses Corporation Corp., 288 Viking Corp., 289 The other questions about spelling-out conventions continue to plague me. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:57:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 08:35 PM 6/1/1998 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: >I'm fond of a shareware program called TraxTime, available from >http://www.spudcity.com/. > >It's a timeclock that sits on your desktop and lets you punch in/out of >projects. It's available as shareware, then costs $20 if you decide you >like it. Bob, I've got it, and I even registered it! I just don't always bother to turn it on. >I figure six billable hours is a full day's work, so I gauge >my fatigue level against the actual hours I've put in. If I'm getting >tired but see I've only done three hours, I figure it's time to take a >break (read "nap") and then continue. If I'm tired and I've done over six >hours, it's time to call it a day. Funny...that's exactly how many hours I've figured for years that I was able to put together on a "good" day. During crises, this is, of course, extended. But much more than six hours of doing this sort of work and I am thoroughly thrashed. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:57:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Rates Redux At 01:44 AM 6/2/1998 -0500, Carol Roberts wrote: >Sonsie, are you SURE? This is just the kind of situation in which I will >try to renegotiate the fee after the fact (something I talked about in my >"negotiating with editors" roundtable). I will typically cite the figures >you give (# of indexables per page) to make the case that the book was not >as described. The person involved is a book packager, who makes his money by managing to do everything for a little less than the publisher has to pay. Thus, his interest is in keeping the price down so he can collect the difference between what the publisher expects to pay him for the index, and what he actually has to pay. So it's in his best interest to negotiate the lowest possible fee. He also could use a little education in how indexes are created (and what locaters-per-page mean and why 12 is high and 5-7 is "normal"). I know you're right about renegotiation, but I just feel so darned uncomfortable about it (I need more assertiveness training, I guess) that I'm not gonna do it. But what I do think I will do is write or call and explain to him why he got such a bargain this time, and give him the information on which I base my bids so he won't be surprised next time if and when I call to tell him the pages are considerably more dense than I was told and that the rate must be X per page rather than Y. >For 12 indexables per page, I would want to get $5/page. I might not get >it, but if I ask for that much, chances are I'll do considerably better >than $3.50. I was thinking $4.50, so I was in the general area of $5. I've had no problem getting $4 or $4.50 for scientific indexing (all those Latin names and terms), but social science types don't ever seem to have the money (and don't think the job is worth it in any event). But I plan to keep trying! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:45:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rica Night Subject: Re: Why numerals >>11095 Viking Corp. (Does the name begin "eleven" of "one, one") >>12300 Corp. (Does the name begin "twelve" or "one, two") >> >initially (and I forgot as the discussion continued) I wondered why a >numeral address would be in an index in the first place. I can't imagine >remembering an address to search for it in an index. Actually. An address >should be what we are directing readers to. In this instance, I think users >would be better served with an entry such as > >Addresses > Corporation Corp., 288 > Viking Corp., 289 Unless I miss my guess, though, these are *not* street addresses, but actual corporate names. Here in Ontario, Canada, at least, it's relatively common to incorporate a "numbered" company, particularly (I think) when the owners prefer to remain anonymous or to keep connections among various companies from being obvious. The company may actually do business using that name (I've made out cheques to some), or it may have one or more subsidiaries with more-pronounceable monikers. In the unlikely event that I'd actually want to pronounce a company name of this type, I'd call it "one-one-oh-nine-five Viking Corp." For indexing purposes, I'd be inclined to collect all these at the top of the index, ordered numerically. Hope this helps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Ms.) Rica Night rnight@inforamp.net * Freelance Copyeditor, Proofreader, Indexer * Seminar Leader: _Networking With Integrity_ and _Romance Meets Reality: Becoming Your Own Boss_ Toronto, Canada 416-463-EDIT "My own boss: when I talk, *I* listen!" <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:11:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Hedtke Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing In-Reply-To: Well spoke, Bob! I can only add to this the thought that freelancing is almost the only way to go if you are not a morning person. :) Yours Truly, John Hedtke www.hedtke.com (who is writing this reply after having gotten up at 9:00am and wandered down to the office to phone the east coast before making breakfast) At 04:08 PM 6/1/98 EDT, ROBJRICH@aol.com wrote: >All - > >At the recent (and presumably soon-to-become-legendary) ASI Conference in >Seattle, John Hedtke delivered an interesting and upbeat keynote address on >Successful Freelancing. Mr. Hedtke is an engaging speaker. Were he a >recruiter for the armed services I am confident that many in the audience >would have rushed forward in an enthusiasm to enlist. > >In his talk he touched upon the ostensible difference between the relative >security of the in-house indexer and the unpredictable world of the >freelancer. His analogy, if I recall it correctly, was that of an island (the >in-house situation) set in a turbulent ocean (the freelance milieu). The >alternatives that he outlined were the safety of direct employment versus the >uncertainty of navigating the freelance sea. It is to this scenario that I >would like to address these brief remarks. > >It doubtless was true, long ago, that in-house employment was secure, and that >freelancing was risky. The common wisdom was that if one did not burn with >the entrepreneurial imperative one had better play it safe and find steady >employment. But that was then, and this is now, and we need..... Ahh, I love >this!.... a new paradigm. > >To carry forward Mr. Hedtke's analogy, I suggest that these islands of >relative safety are shrinking dramatically, and more and more in-house >indexers are clinging to smaller and smaller bits of rocky real estate. As >these traditional refuges become vanishingly small, what remains is going to >look less like a safe haven and more like turf battles in an Antarctic seal >rookery. In another context, one might ask: How many indexers can dance on >the head on an in-house pin? > >As in-house indexers are being washed off their perches by these cost-cutting >tsunami, I think it might be a good idea to give up the idea of clinging like >grim death to this illusory security, and learn to swim. Reverse the lessons >of paleontology, and go from being exclusively land animals to becoming >amphibians. Prosper in both environments. Develop gills and you have nothing >to fear from the sea (except, of course, bigger and toothier critters than >yourself). > >During the years that I have been freelancing, I have seen many publishers >merge or simply disappear. The impact on their in-house people must have >been terrible. But swimming around in my little freelance sea I have been >relatively unaffected by these catastrophes. After all, very few fish >drowned when the Titanic went down. To paraphrase the song: "Clients may >crumble, publishers may tumble, freelancing is here to stay..." Now, >THAT is real security! > >One is tempted to recall the Aesop parable of the wolf and the farm dog. The >wolf, lean and hungry, living by his wits in the forest, meets a farm dog. >The wolf notices that the dog is well-fed and has a heavy coat, and asks him >about his life. "Oh", said the dog, "I live on the farm in the valley. I >help my laster herd sheep, and warn the family of danger, and play with the >farmer's children. And I sleep in the warm barn, and have plenty of food." >The wolf asks the dog if he, too, could live at the farm and have these >benefits. The dog agrees, and as they set off the wolf notices a worn ring in >the fur around the dog's neck. ":What is that worn ring in your fur?" he >asks. "Oh, that!" says the dog, 'That's where I wear my master's collar." >And the wolf turned, sadly, and returned to the forest. > >So take heart, you in-house indexers working under extreme pressure, to >impossible deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay. Learn to >freelance! Then you can work under extreme pressure, to impossible >deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay! And you also can pay your >own overhead, contribute to FICA, search for affordable medical insurance, >select any twelve hours a day that you choose to work, clean the cat-hair from >your mouse (cats and mice still don't get along), and wonder if you ever can >schedule a four-week vacation. The benefits are obvious! > >But perhaps less obvious is that if you are reasonably competent, reasonably >diligent, willing to bend to clients' crises, and impeccably honest, you >always will have work. > >And all you wolves out there in the freelance forest: you also have probably >the best peer group any professional could wish for. > >Bless you all. > >Bob Richardson > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:06:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Blank "index" books You can also buy in stores, A-Z index tabs (these are the size of a regular sheet of paper) as well as 1-31 index tabs. Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org At 10:09 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote: >Melinda Davis writes: > >Once upon a time, several years ago, at a book store, I purchased a >blank book which not only had nice lined pages, but wonderful A-Z >tabbed pages and even a spine title (INDEX BOOK). It was the only >one that the store had, or I would have stocked up. Even though I'd >never seen such a treasure before, I presumed (silly me!) that there >would be more later on. Naturally, I've never, ever seen another one >at that store or any other, and the few times I've asked all I've >gotten were blank looks! So since I think you all can at least can >visualize what I'm describing, do any of you know where I can get >more blank index books? Thanks. >_______________ > >Well Melinda, the bad news is that I've never seen this type of book, but I >can imagine how handy it would be. The good news is that you can easily >*make* one very cheaply. Take any notebook you buy in the store with the >type of lines you wish (wide, narrow, or college ruled) and then take >Post-It Note Flags and attach them to the edges every few pages. Write the >letters of the alphabet on the flags in permanent marker and Viola! you >have an index book. The beauty of this is method rather than a pre-fab >version, is that letters you know you won't use, or will have little use >for, can get no pages or one page assigned to them, and you can pick the >line ruling of your choice. I've used a version of this for my indexing, >and it works wonderfully! > >Good luck. > >elaine > > >Elaine R. Firestone, ELS >elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov >elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:29:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: Rates Redux Hi, all! I, like Barbara, keep my hours tracked on paper despite having at least one desktop tracker and billing system on my PC... This is mostly because I feel I don't have time (spelled i-n-c-l-i-n-a-t-i-o-n) to get used to using them. I use a Day Runner with 1 page per day, and I record general catagories of each activity I do for my client and how much time I spent on each per day. After 2 weeks I total it all up (including a separate location at the page bottom for billable expenditures) and invoice my client for the hours (with categories only listed under the total hours worked -- not time breakdowns) as one amount and the cash reimbursement items listed as another amount (listed by specifics then with total applicable sales tax). My client had expressed an interest in knowing how much time I spent doing certain things so he could see what he has me do the most of, but never asked for a tally after the first year. I find it gives me a good idea of approximate time per task in case he asks how long it would take me to do something. I have found this whole thread very enlightening -- thanks for sharing! Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:35:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Author: John Hedtke at internet Date: 6/2/98 9:11 AM Well spoke, Bob! I can only add to this the thought that freelancing is almost the only way to go if you are not a morning person. :) Yours Truly, John Hedtke www.hedtke.com (who is writing this reply after having gotten up at 9:00am and wandered down to the office to phone the east coast before making breakfast) At 04:08 PM 6/1/98 EDT, ROBJRICH@aol.com wrote: >All - > >At the recent (and presumably soon-to-become-legendary) ASI Conference in >Seattle, John Hedtke delivered an interesting and upbeat keynote address on >Successful Freelancing. Mr. Hedtke is an engaging speaker. Were he a >recruiter for the armed services I am confident that many in the audience >would have rushed forward in an enthusiasm to enlist. > >In his talk he touched upon the ostensible difference between the relative >security of the in-house indexer and the unpredictable world of the >freelancer. His analogy, if I recall it correctly, was that of an island (the >in-house situation) set in a turbulent ocean (the freelance milieu). The >alternatives that he outlined were the safety of direct employment versus the >uncertainty of navigating the freelance sea. It is to this scenario that I >would like to address these brief remarks. > >It doubtless was true, long ago, that in-house employment was secure, and that >freelancing was risky. The common wisdom was that if one did not burn with >the entrepreneurial imperative one had better play it safe and find steady >employment. But that was then, and this is now, and we need..... Ahh, I love >this!.... a new paradigm. > >To carry forward Mr. Hedtke's analogy, I suggest that these islands of >relative safety are shrinking dramatically, and more and more in-house >indexers are clinging to smaller and smaller bits of rocky real estate. As >these traditional refuges become vanishingly small, what remains is going to >look less like a safe haven and more like turf battles in an Antarctic seal >rookery. In another context, one might ask: How many indexers can dance on >the head on an in-house pin? > >As in-house indexers are being washed off their perches by these cost-cutting >tsunami, I think it might be a good idea to give up the idea of clinging like >grim death to this illusory security, and learn to swim. Reverse the lessons >of paleontology, and go from being exclusively land animals to becoming >amphibians. Prosper in both environments. Develop gills and you have nothing >to fear from the sea (except, of course, bigger and toothier critters than >yourself). > >During the years that I have been freelancing, I have seen many publishers >merge or simply disappear. The impact on their in-house people must have >been terrible. But swimming around in my little freelance sea I have been >relatively unaffected by these catastrophes. After all, very few fish >drowned when the Titanic went down. To paraphrase the song: "Clients may >crumble, publishers may tumble, freelancing is here to stay..." Now, >THAT is real security! > >One is tempted to recall the Aesop parable of the wolf and the farm dog. The >wolf, lean and hungry, living by his wits in the forest, meets a farm dog. >The wolf notices that the dog is well-fed and has a heavy coat, and asks him >about his life. "Oh", said the dog, "I live on the farm in the valley. I >help my laster herd sheep, and warn the family of danger, and play with the >farmer's children. And I sleep in the warm barn, and have plenty of food." >The wolf asks the dog if he, too, could live at the farm and have these >benefits. The dog agrees, and as they set off the wolf notices a worn ring in >the fur around the dog's neck. ":What is that worn ring in your fur?" he >asks. "Oh, that!" says the dog, 'That's where I wear my master's collar." >And the wolf turned, sadly, and returned to the forest. > >So take heart, you in-house indexers working under extreme pressure, to >impossible deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay. Learn to >freelance! Then you can work under extreme pressure, to impossible >deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay! And you also can pay your >own overhead, contribute to FICA, search for affordable medical insurance, >select any twelve hours a day that you choose to work, clean the cat-hair from >your mouse (cats and mice still don't get along), and wonder if you ever can >schedule a four-week vacation. The benefits are obvious! > >But perhaps less obvious is that if you are reasonably competent, reasonably >diligent, willing to bend to clients' crises, and impeccably honest, you >always will have work. > >And all you wolves out there in the freelance forest: you also have probably >the best peer group any professional could wish for. > >Bless you all. > >Bob Richardson > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:56:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: personal names in subs The book I'm indexing discusses several Thompsons (researchers). In one place in particular, it's necessary to use the name in a subentry, but I'll need to distinguish this Thompson from the others. What would you do? Invert the name? moral economy: Thompson, Edward P., on, 37-38 Leave it in normal order? And then do you ignore "Edward P." in sorting the subs or not (there will be more subs)? moral economy: Edward P. Thompson on, 37-38 My client isn't too keen on parens in subs, so I'm not inclined to treat it this way: moral economy: Thompson (Edward P.) on, 37-38 Thanks in advance for any advice. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:56:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing There's room for all of us in this profession... please, let's not start singling out in-house or freelancers for criticism. People choose to freelance (or to work in-house) for a number of reasons, and everyone has unique commitments, needs, and skills to consider when they choose a career. Job security is certainly a concern, but I believe it can be found in both areas of our profession. Neither in-house work nor freelancing is a "one size fits all" career. Someone who is content freelancing might be unhappy in a corporate situation, and vice versa. Employers also have different needs, so I think it's a little premature to say that in-house work is fading away. Outsourcing doesn't work in every situation, and some publishers have compelling reasons to keep their indexing staff in-house. Remember, too, that back-of-book indexing is only part of the profession. For example, I believe we have a number of legislative indexers on the list who are in-house employees. Erika Millen Indianapolis _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:11:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Confirmation Letters First let me say that I have been "lurking" in here for quite some time as I was gearing up to accept my first job as an indexer, and I want to thank you all for the valuable information and advice that I have received! Now I have a direct question. One thing that I never really considered was what some of you refer to as a "confirmation" letter. Although I have a good idea of what is included in one, I have never seen (much less written) a contract! I have a job for a "friend" that I will be doing soon, and it seems like a good opportunity to practice all the aspects of an indexing business. Is there anyone out there who would be willing to email me an old copy of a confirmation letter so that I may get an idea about format, content, wording, etc? I don't want to seem unprofessional at my first job, nor do I want to seem too inflexible. I would appreciate any advice! Thank you! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:26:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Re[2]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Thanks, Erika! I have drifted from moonlighting, to freelance indexing to full-time inhouse (legislative) work. Each format had its advantages and each has matched my needs at the time. I have no regrets. There aren't too many professions that offer so many choices. The main advantage for moonlighting was that I had a steady income other than indexing which, of course, was rain-or-shine. The advantage of freelance indexing was that I could meet my family's requirements more easily. I could use my afternoon break to put a roast in the oven rather than gossip with coworkers about office politics. The advantage of in-house indexing is that I have had the privilege of learning a lot about legislation. Before I would flit from one subject to another without studying anything very deeply. With my current job I study politics in depth. I feel much the richer. Nell In a message dated 98-06-02 12:59:12 EDT, you write: << There's room for all of us in this profession... please, let's not start singling out in-house or freelancers for criticism. People choose to freelance (or to work in-house) for a number of reasons, and everyone has unique commitments, needs, and skills to consider when they choose a career. Job security is certainly a concern, but I believe it can be found in both areas of our profession. Neither in-house work nor freelancing is a "one size fits all" career. Someone who is content freelancing might be unhappy in a corporate situation, and vice versa. Employers also have different needs, so I think it's a little premature to say that in-house work is fading away. Outsourcing doesn't work in every situation, and some publishers have compelling reasons to keep their indexing staff in-house. Remember, too, that back-of-book indexing is only part of the profession. For example, I believe we have a number of legislative indexers on the list who are in-house employees. Erika Millen Indianapolis >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:06:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: legislative indexing In a message dated 98-06-02, Nell wrote: I have drifted from moonlighting, to freelance indexing to full-time inhouse (legislative) work. Each format had its advantages and each has matched my needs at the time. I have no regrets. There aren't too many professions that offer so many choices. The advantage of in-house indexing is that I have had the privilege of learning a lot about legislation. Before I would flit from one subject to another without studying anything very deeply. With my current job I study politics in depth. I feel much the richer. Nell, I'd love to know more about what you do as a legislative indexer. It just sounds so interesting, and it's a field we back-of-book people don't learn much about. I did interview once with a legal data-management company (I would have been indexing material for discovery)... fascinating work, although unfortunately I couldn't accept it at the time. Is your work similar? Do you create hard-copy indexes, or do you create database-style tools? What sort of software do you use? Am I asking too many questions? Really, though, I'd love to know more. Please feel free to reply off-list, if you'd rather. Erika Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:07:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Dear all, Choice -- that's what it's all about. Thank goodness there is no "one size fits all". We all have our needs, and we make our choices according to those needs. And, as they say, timing is everything. Even needs change over time. I would never have thought, at any earlier phase of my full-time-employed life, that I would be happy working out of my home. Now I'm happy as a clam, being a full- time, busy, free-lancer and business owner. It was time to make the change, and it is good. Everybody must find their own niche and their own path. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:07:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: legislative indexing Erika Millen wrote: > > In a message dated 98-06-02, Nell wrote: > > I have drifted from moonlighting, to freelance indexing to > full-time inhouse (legislative) work. Each format had its > advantages and each has matched my needs at the time. I have no > regrets. There aren't too many professions that offer so many > choices. > > The advantage of in-house indexing is that I have had the > privilege of learning a lot about legislation. Before I would flit > from one subject to another without studying anything very deeply. > With my current job I study politics in depth. I feel much the > richer. > > Nell, > > I'd love to know more about what you do as a legislative indexer. It just > sounds so interesting, and it's a field we back-of-book people don't learn > much about. I did interview once with a legal data-management company (I > would have been indexing material for discovery)... fascinating work, although > unfortunately I couldn't accept it at the time. Is your work similar? Do you > create hard-copy indexes, or do you create database-style tools? What sort of > software do you use? Am I asking too many questions? > > Really, though, I'd love to know more. Please feel free to reply off-list, if > you'd rather. No, please! Nell, if you are willing to answer Erika's questions, please do it here! I'm very interested in what you do as a legislative indexer, and I'd be willing to bet there are several others, also. Thanks. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:27:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: legislative indexing In a message dated 98-06-02 14:21:07 EDT, you write: << No, please! Nell, if you are willing to answer Erika's questions, please do it here! I'm very interested in what you do as a legislative indexer, and I'd be willing to bet there are several others, also. Thanks. Ann Here's a copy of my reply to Erika: >> Erika, I work for Congressional Quarterly (CQ.) I index their weekly magazine and their Almanac. The weekly index is published quarterly, bound by itself. You may have seen it in your library. It is printed on yellow paper. The almanac index is a regular back of the book index. I actually do a lot of indexes at a time: 1) A quick reference index 2) Main index (Names, organizations and subjects) 3) Presidential texts 4) Committee roll call votes 5) House roll call votes 6) Senate roll call votes 7) Bill number (Almanac only) Now I use Cindex and work from hard copy. CQ is moving a lot of its products to the web. I'll be taking Dwight's course soon and may be taking the plunge myself. The computer people at CQ are very patient with me and are teaching me their craft. In exchange I'm telling the how I index. If you want to know more (I'm afraid I'll bore you) let me know and I'll explain how I structure the various indexes. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:29:56 -0700 Reply-To: jthomas3@csulb.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Organization: California State University Long Beach, Library Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals > It could also be > pronounced "oh seventy-six." Often I don't have time to wait for the > author's response to those sorts of queries, so I'd make a guess as to > where to place the "076" entry and ask the author to indicate where to My author came through with the explanation that "076" is always pronounced "oh seven six" among those in the know. For those NOT in the know, or those who have only seen it written, I'm gonna' leave in the numerical entry AND the more complete name of the protcocol. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:40:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: footnote on scanning When I scanned in that bibliography I mentioned a day to two ago, on a hunch, I kept the other researchers' names (in hidden text) with the first researcher, even though I also created main entries for each of the others. So the first index entry for this particular bibliographic entry looks like this: Isaacman, A.{, M. Stephen, Y. Adam, tvl. J. Homen, E. Macamo, and A. Pililao. i98o}: on peasant resistance in Mozambique, 42 Boy, am I glad I kept those names with Isaacman, because I find this in the text: "Similarly, Isaacman and colleagues (1980, 599) describe the suppression . . . ." It would have been a PITB to have to look up the names in the biblio. Because I have "view numbers" turned on in Cindex, all I have to do to add the sub to all the researchers' entries is note that Isaacman is entry #104, then go to 105, 106, etc., until I get to Pililao. Oooh, I love this method. This has the makings of a _Key Words_ article. Could someone please remind me who the new editor is? Thanks. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:58:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dempsey, Mark F." Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals I guess then the question becomes whether reasonable index users would look for "oh seven six" under "O" or under "Z" because they translate the spoken "oh" to "zero" when they consult the index. > -----Original Message----- > From: Joy Thomas [SMTP:jthomas3@CSULB.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 3:30 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals > > > It could also be > > pronounced "oh seventy-six." Often I don't have time to wait for the > > author's response to those sorts of queries, so I'd make a guess as to > > where to place the "076" entry and ask the author to indicate where to > > My author came through with the explanation that "076" is always > pronounced "oh seven six" among those in the know. For those NOT in the > know, or those who have only seen it written, I'm gonna' leave in the > numerical entry AND the more complete name of the protcocol. > > -- > Joy Thomas > Social Sciences Librarian > California State University, Long Beach > 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:18:33 -0700 Reply-To: jthomas3@csulb.edu Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Organization: California State University Long Beach, Library Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals Mark said: > I guess then the question becomes whether reasonable index users would > look for "oh seven six" under "O" or under "Z" because they translate > the spoken "oh" to "zero" when they consult the index. I asked the author that specific question. She said that No one every pronounces it "zero;" but I intend to err on the side of prudence and include "zero" also. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:21:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Dempsey, Mark F." Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals I had it drummed into my head somewhere along the line that OH IS NOT A NUMBER, THE NUMBER IS ZERO. Because I assume that others have been similarly indoctrinated, I think Joy is wise in her prudence. Also, authors' opinions as to what index users would call things is not necessarily dispositive. Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Joy Thomas [SMTP:jthomas3@CSULB.EDU] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 4:19 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Spelling out numerals > > Mark said: > > I guess then the question becomes whether reasonable index users would > > look > for "oh seven six" under "O" or under "Z" because they translate > the > spoken > "oh" to "zero" when they consult the index. > > I asked the author that specific question. She said that No one every > pronounces it "zero;" but I intend to err on the side of prudence and > include "zero" also. > > -- > Joy Thomas > Social Sciences Librarian > California State University, Long Beach > 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:42:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Blank "index" books >Once upon a time, several years ago, at a book store, I purchased a >blank book which not only had nice lined pages, but wonderful A-Z >tabbed pages and even a spine title (INDEX BOOK). > Okay, I'm dying to know. How WOULD you use a book like this for indexing??? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:06:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Re[2]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing In-Reply-To: <199806021658.JAA13960@pacific.net> Erika wrote: >There's room for all of us in this profession... please, let's not start >singling out in-house or freelancers for criticism. >Employers also have different needs, so I think it's a little premature to say >that in-house work is fading away. Outsourcing doesn't work in every situation, >and some publishers have compelling reasons to keep their indexing staff >in-house. Yes, I remember that there was a recent discussion on this list about the fact that some computer publishers are starting to bring indexers in-house. I work freelance because that's what works for me. I sometimes strongly envy those who get to leave the office at the end of the day, not to need to return until the next. I would say that is a primary benefit of working in-house, not to be taken lightly. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 19:23:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Blank "index" books At 04:42 PM 6/2/98 EDT, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > >Once upon a time, several years ago, at a book store, I purchased a > >blank book which not only had nice lined pages, but wonderful A-Z > >tabbed pages and even a spine title (INDEX BOOK). > > >Okay, I'm dying to know. How WOULD you use a book like this for indexing??? > >Do Mi My thoughts as well. Address book, index of hand-written recipes written in notebooks (I have 10 such notebooks from the days when I could not afford to buy cookbooks and I wrote out recipes by hand from library books--then even xeroxing was too expensive!), index of a book without an index...? I cannot see a really practical use for this, but maybe I am missing something here? What a pain to write it all out by hand, though... ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Freelance Indexer Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:34:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: Blank "index" books In a message dated 98-06-02 19:24:13 EDT, you write: > I have 10 such notebooks from the days when I could not afford to > buy cookbooks and I wrote out recipes by hand from library books--then even > xeroxing was too expensive!), That day is now for me! Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:02:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: personal names in subs Carol wrote: << The book I'm indexing discusses several Thompsons (researchers). In one place in particular, it's necessary to use the name in a subentry, but I'll need to distinguish this Thompson from the others. What would you do? >> I'm always stewing about this too. I don't think there's an ideal way to do it. I always, after stewing, end up spelling out the name: moral economy, Edward P. Thompson on and alphabetizing under E (Edward P. seems like a little much to ignore). I actually kind of like your parentheses solution, but I could see some editors balking. Anybody have a really graceful way to handle this? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:08:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: footnote on scanning Carol wrote: << Isaacman and colleagues (1980, 599) describe the suppression . . . ." It would have been a PITB to have to look up the names in the biblio. >> Now this is interesting! When I'm indexing citations, and the citation in the text reads "Isaacman et al." or "Isaacman and colleagues," I index only Isaacman. I figure that a) if the author didn't care enough about the other people to put them in the text they shouldn't go in the index and b) if someone looked up one of the other people they wouldn't find them. I've never done it any other way. Am I in the minority here?? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:51:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne E. Clendenen" Organization: AfterWords Indexing Services Subject: Re: personal names in subs Carol Roberts wrote: > > The book I'm indexing discusses several Thompsons (researchers). In one > place in particular, it's necessary to use the name in a subentry, but I'll > need to distinguish this Thompson from the others. What would you do? > > Invert the name? > > moral economy: Thompson, Edward P., on, 37-38 I'd invert, but I'd use just initials, unless there are two Thompson, E. P.'s. It would save space and still flow ok, I think. Joanne -- AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "Change: A bend in the road is not the end of the road... Unless you fail to make the turn." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:53:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alia Michaels Subject: Re: Time tracker (was Re: Rates Redux) >Does anyone know of a good shareware program that works on a MAC? A friend of mine uses MultiTimer it should be locatable at the major shareware sites. At one point, she was trying out 4 different timers (I vaguely remember another one was named Julia's Timer), but she settled on this one. I use Time Accountant on my Newton, but I might switch to MultiTimer at some point. Alia *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Alia Michaels * Tucson, AZ * USA aliamm@aol.com Freelance Technical Writer and Editor *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:39:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Hudson Subject: computer indexing for novices Many thanks to all of you who responded to my query about whether it was best to learn indexing by the old-fashioned cards-in-shoeboxes method or = to start straight away on a computer indexing program. The consensus seems to be that when you are learning it's a good idea to = do everything manually - only then can you understand the processes involved= =2E = But once you have mastered these, it's worth moving on to using dedicated= indexing software as quickly as possible. I will pass this advice on to = my indexing students. Thanks again, ANN HUDSON ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:04:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Job posting for Index-l from HW Wilson (fwd) >Return-Path: >From: "E-mail box for JOBS" >Organization: The H.W.Wilson Company >To: ASI@well.com >Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:33:28 EST >Subject: jobs >Reply-to: jobs@hwwilson.com >Priority: normal > >Please post the following job openings. > >Thank you. > > >H.W. Wilson Company founded in 1898, is a leading provider of >bibliographic references and other library resources in print and >electronic formats. The Company publishes indexes, abstracts, and >full-text databases on CD-ROM, magnetic tape, online, over the World >Wide Web and through information partners. > >Celebrating 100 yeras of service. > > > >Cataloger- Standard Catalogs > >Experience in library collection development desirable. Computer >literacy desirable. Knowledge of contemporary drama helpful. MLS . > > >Cataloger - Names > >Understanding of ACCR2 revised cataloging rules. MLS. > > >Indexer- Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature > >General subject background. BA or BS in Liberal Arts. MLS. > > > >All positions listed includes 4 weeks vacation. > > >Interested applicants can send resume to: jobs@hwwilson.com > >Fax: 718-538-2716 > >Mailing address: The H.W. Wilson Company > 950 University Avenue > Bronx, NY 10452 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:22:20 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melinda Davis Organization: Univ. of Tennessee College of Law Subject: Blank "index" books, uses of In order to set your minds at ease that I don't do my indexes in copperplate script in bound volumes, I will come clean on what I use them for. Be forewarned--this may be more than you wanted to know--it won't hurt my feelings for you to hit delete at any point. The reason I posed the question to Index-L was not because I wanted the blank index books for indexing, but because I figured if anybody would have noticed them in a store, it would be an indexer. The index book that I have I started using to record new (to me) and unusual words that I ran across--unusual in the sense of particularly poetic (ex: cerculean, glaucous), particularly clever (ex: hyphenate, a noun to describe a person with grander aspirations than their current situation, like a waiter-writer), or particularly hard for me to remember (ex: usufruct). It was a New Year's Resolution that has lasted. Then I started slipping in other tidbits, like the name and location of the teapot museum in Wales (just in case I'm ever in the neighborhood), and place names that caught my fancy (Algeciras, a ferry port opposite Gibraltar; Beersheba Springs, TN.). (When I grow up, I want to write answers for Jeopardy.) I think it would be nice to have separate books for separate categories before things get any further out of hand. Address books are a good substitute--especially if the pages are designed without every line being labeled with name, address, etc). Address books have the advantage of being available in all sizes and shapes--I have a pocket size that I carry with me with the books that I'm looking for--and it's relatively easy to find pretty ones--I love my basic black dress, but I don't want a generic black address book. The down side (admittedly minor) is that they usually say "address book" on the front and the picky side of me wants it to say "index book" or "lists" or nothing at all. Although the binder and tabs would probably be the most efficient way to go,, I would prefer a bound book. But at least there are options. Thanks for your interest and I apologize for the confusion. Melinda Davis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:32:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Indexing citations (was footnote on scanning) In scientific articles, the "el al" is always used when a paper with three or more authors is cited. Also, the generally accepted order of author names is: first author, the person who did the most work (if not all of the work); second, third, etc, other people who did some work or contributed in some way to the work, but to a lesser degree, and the last author (also called senior author) who is often the head of the lab or the person who's funding supported the project. The first and last author are usually the most important and everyone else in between don't really matter (but don't tell them that). At least this is the case for scientific research publications. Hope this helps. Maxine Maxine M. Okazaki Okazaki Consulting mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:06:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Indexing citations (was footnote on scanning) In-Reply-To: <199806031341.GAA15886@powergrid.electriciti.com> Actually it's et al. (for et alia) and the number of authors varies with academic style. I am a little snippy about this, as I currently am correcting a copyediting job in which I have to add more names to citations. In American Psychological Association (APA) style, all first citations of five and fewer authors include all authors in the first citation, with et al. (with esoteric exceptions) being employed after the first cite. Many scientific books (such as the one on audiology I am currently dealing with) follow APA style. At 09:32 AM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >In scientific articles, the "el al" is always used when a paper with three or >more authors is cited. Also, the generally accepted order of author names is: >first author, the person who did the most work (if not all of the work); second, >third, etc, other people who did some work or contributed in some way to the >work, but to a lesser degree, and the last author (also called senior author) >who is often the head of the lab or the person who's funding supported the >project. The first and last author are usually the most important and everyone >else in between don't really matter (but don't tell them that). At least this >is the case for scientific research publications. > >Hope this helps. > >Maxine > >Maxine M. Okazaki >Okazaki Consulting >mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu > > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:17:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Indexing citations (was footnote on scanning) Hi Pam: Thank you for correcting my typo. Of course it should be et al. Sorry folks. Maxine Maxine Okazaki Okazaki Consulting mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:32:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pauline Sholtys Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Victoria Baker wrote: I sometimes strongly envy those who get to leave the office at the end of the day, not to need to return until the next. I would say that is a primary benefit of working in-house, not to be taken lightly. True, in-house indexers get to leave the office at the end of the day. However, during crunch periods the day can stretch to 12 or more hours--I've been known to put in two or three 16-hour days in a row to meet a deadline. Not to mention coming in on Saturday and Sunday, and bringing work home. There are a lot of benefits to working in-house, but working strictly 9-to-5 isn't necessarily one of them. Pauline Sholtys psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: looking for ASI chapter information Sorry to bother the list with this. But I need to know if anyone from Michigan or Florida can tell me who the contact person is for their ASI chapter. I know that the FL chapter has been inactive. Is that still the case? Reply to me, not to the list. Thanks. Charlotte Skuster ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:24:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: personal names in subs DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > Carol wrote: > > << The book I'm indexing discusses several Thompsons (researchers). In one > place in particular, it's necessary to use the name in a subentry, but I'll > need to distinguish this Thompson from the others. What would you do? This list never ceases to amaze me. I was struggling with names as subentries yesterday, in a book about the history of US Forestry Research (quite interesting, actually). For names belonging to only one person, I just used the last name; is that what you do? And is it important to put the thing the person did (or said) first in the subentry, or do you put the name first? For instance, William Greeley made an influential series of talks to various organizations. I had these entries: Greeley, William NAS address SAF address NAS (National Academy of Sciences) Greeley address SAF (Society of American Foresters) Greeley address Does that seem right? > I'm always stewing about this too. I don't think there's an ideal way to do > it. I always, after stewing, end up spelling out the name: > > moral economy, Edward P. Thompson on > > and alphabetizing under E (Edward P. seems like a little much to ignore). I got confused here. Alphabetizing what under E? Not "moral economy" surely? Help. Or...wait a minute...is this a run-on index? (I thought Carol just had a semi-colon in the subentry). OK, if that's it, I get it! Could you possibly put it in twice, once alphabetized as E and once as T, for those who might be looking for Thompson? This would only be necessary if there were lots of subentries for moral economy; with just a few, the reader would be able to scan quickly and find Thompson even if he was under E. Am I making sense, ot totally missing the point? And could you use just initials: moral economy: E.P. Thompson on, 37-38 sorted under T, unless there are other Thompsons here, too. In that case, I would sort all the Thompsons under T *and* in order by their initials. moral economy: Norcross unfamiliarity with, 34-78; Roberts on, 23-45; Stauber address, 45-56; technical terms for, 34; A.C. Thompson on, 11-12; E.P. Thompson on, 37-38; Z.Z. Thompson on, 55; ticks, removal of, 99-100 Ann (sorry if I am way off base here) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:41:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: footnote on scanning At 11:08 PM 6/2/1998 EDT, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: >Now this is interesting! When I'm indexing citations, and the citation in the >text reads "Isaacman et al." or "Isaacman and colleagues," I index only >Isaacman. I figure that a) if the author didn't care enough about the other >people to put them in the text they shouldn't go in the index and b) if >someone looked up one of the other people they wouldn't find them. I've never >done it any other way. Am I in the minority here?? On (a), Chicago Manual and APA manual style is to include only X number of names in a long cite (each one picks a different number, I think; 3 and 5, or something like that). Most textbooks and scholarly works follow one or the other; therefore, it isn't really the author's choice about how many names to include. You're right about (b)...but I still include ALL author names because of (a), and because most authors and editors want me to. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:41:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of At 09:22 AM 6/3/1998 EST, Melinda Davis wrote: >In order to set your minds at ease that I don't do my indexes in >copperplate script in bound volumes, I will come clean on what I use >them for. Melinda, my dear, departed grandmother would have loved you! And I'm sure she would have loved those books you are looking for. I have a tattered looseleaf notebook (with plain old A-Z index separators) absolutely stuffed with every fabulous crossword puzzle word (and its definition) that she ran across in her 70+ years of working these monsters. Eventually it got to the point where she could beat the puzzle-writers at their own game, having gathered all the oddball words they tended to use to fill awkward spots. She always wanted me to get that book into shape and get it published, and I still hope to manage this someday. I hope you find another one of those books... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:05:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: UW Talk 6/8/98:Indexing/Data Mining in Multimedia DBs Efthimis Efthimiadis wrote: > > Subject: UW Talk 6/8/98:Indexing/Data Mining in Multimedia DBs Is there a cost for this? Thanks for your response. Jeri Lee > The Graduate School of Library & Information Science > University of Washington > and > the UW Student Chapter > of the American Society for Information Science > invite you to a presentation: > > Indexing and Data Mining in Traditional and Multimedia Databases. > > by Dr Christos Faloutsos > Carnegie Mellon University. > > DATE: Monday, June 8, 1998 > TIME: 3-5 pm > VENUE: Room 127, Suzallo Library Bldg, UW > PARKING: UW parking available at $6 > > -------- > Abstract > > The talk presents fast indexing methods for multimedia databases, as well > as recent tools for datamining. Specifically, it examines (a) Spatial > Access Methods, like R-trees, for multimedia indexing and (b) scaleable > methods for lossy compression and rule discovery. For the first part, we do > feature extraction, mapping each multimedia object into a > low-dimensionality point; then, we store these points in Spatial Access > Methods, and thus we can quickly find objects that are similar to a > desirable object (e.g., 'find stocks similar to Microsoft'). We describe > the conditions under which the method gives no false dismissals, and we > also describe FastMap, a method that does automatic feature extraction. > > For the second part on data mining, we describe a method that compresses a > large data matrix, such as, eg., a matrix with customers as rows, > days-of-the-year as columns, and the amount spent in each cell. > > For such a large, multi-GigaByte matrix, we want to compress it so that (1) > it fits on the disk and (2) we can reconstruct arbitrary cells of the > matrix quickly. The proposed method exploits patterns in the data matrix, > achieves 50:1 compression with less than 10% reconstruction error, and > moreover allows visualization. > > ----------------- > Biographical note > > Christos Faloutsos received the B.Sc. degree in Electrical Engineering > (1981) from the National Technical University of Athens, Greece and the > M.Sc. and Ph.D. degrees in Computer Science from the University of Toronto, > Canada. Dr Faloutsos is currently a faculty member at Carnegie Mellon > University. Prior to joining CMU he was on the faculty of the department > of Computer Science at University of Maryland, College Park. He has spent > sabbaticals at IBM-Almaden and AT&T Bell Labs. > > Dr Faloutsos has received the Presidential Young Investigator Award by the > National Science Foundation (1989), two ``best paper'' awards (SIGMOD 94, > VLDB 97), and three teaching awards. He has published over 70 refereed > articles, one monograph, and has filed for three patents. His research > interests include physical data base design, searching methods for text, > geographic information systems indexing methods for multimedia databases > and data mining. > > -------- > Contact: > > Christos Faloutsos > Computer Science Department phone#: 412-268.14.57 > Carnegie Mellon University FAX#: 412-268.55.76 > Wean Hall, room 4111 elm: christos@cs.cmu.edu > 5000 Forbes Avenue URL: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~christos > Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891 > ---- > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > Efthimis N. Efthimiadis > Associate Professor > Graduate School of Library & Information Science > University of Washington tel-office: 206-616-6077 > Box 352930 tel-school: 206-543-1794 > Seattle, WA 98195-2930 fax. 206-616-3152 > email: efthimis@u.washington.edu > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Confirmation Letters Kari Miller wrote: > Is there anyone out there who would be willing to email me an old copy > of a confirmation letter so that I may get an idea about format, > content, wording, etc? I don't want to seem unprofessional at my first > job, nor do I want to seem too inflexible. I would appreciate any > advice! Here's one I use. I'm posting it here because I welcome any feedback anyone might have. This particular letter was for for a client who does not send her own contract or purchase order for me to sign. Also, for this job, we did not have an actual book title, or a terribly firm date. That's why all the "approximatelys" are in there. For most other clients, I have an actual title, ISBN number, page count, and due dates (pages due to me; index due to them) which I include in the appropriate places in this letter. (I have to admit that I rarely use a contract letter like this with my repeat clients; I probably should, but I don't.) The delivery instructions, fee, and formatting requirements have already been discussed on the phone with this client. That's important; you should not send a letter of confirmation until you have actually confirmed things on the phone or in a meeting (that's my opinion, anyway). Basically, nothing in this letter should come as any surprise to the client. November 14, 1997 Client Name Client Address Dear Client name: Thanks for choosing Crossover Information Services to index the next edition of documentation. This index is for the reference manual for , which is approximately 300-400 pages and is due to you on approximately December 1, 1997. (I understand that this date is tentative; just let me know the real date when you find out.) The index will be delivered electronically, as an e-mail attachment. I will also fax you a hardcopy of the final index. I see from my notes that we had some problems getting the correct Macintosh-compatible format last time; I'll plan to talk with your desktop publishing people when we get close to delivery, and we'll exchange some test files to make sure we've got it right. Could you give me the appropriate person's name and phone extension? Thanks. I'm planning to use the same style I used last time: no initial caps unless capitalized in the text; A,B,C headings for the sections of the index; skip a line before each heading; use "to" as page-number connector if the book uses folio-by-chapter numbering scheme; no more that two levels of subheads. The fee for this job is $3.25/page of manuscript. Revisions are included in the fee, provided that they are 1) assigned within 3 days of your receipt of the index, and 2) are not based on content changes after the index was delivered to you. Payment of the fee is due within 30 days of your receipt of the invoice. Please sign the bottom of this letter and fax it back to me at (919) 852-0886, or just include it with the hard copy proofs you are sending. Thanks! I'm glad we're doing another book together. Sincerely, Ann Norcross ACCEPTED AND AGREED By: Client Name Signature: Date: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:18:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: footnote on scanning In-Reply-To: <199806031450.HAA18010@powergrid.electriciti.com> Sonsie sez: ..but I still include ALL author names because of >(a), and because most authors and editors want me to. > I absolutely agree and when doing author indexing, I include all known authors for each cite. Everyone given credit for a work in the references deserves (and I think the need to be accurate requires) credit. Fortunately the publishers I copyedit for want me to query when there's an et al. in the references. But, I think the et al. in references will eventually (and I think sadly) become common. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:19:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Literary references to indexing Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > > 27 May 1998 > > Here's a series of quotations about indexing from Penelope Lively's 1984 > novel, _Perfect Happiness_, which may be of interest to you. Lovely! Here's something not exactly literary, but interesting. I just finished indexing this book, and in addition to: publications rules, 25 I had an entry for: indexes, not allowed, 25 Here's the text, from page 25 of "Forest Service Research: Finding Answers to Conservation's Questions," by Harold K. Steen. The 1924 Clarke-McNary Act had authorized the effort, which was headed by Yale professor Fred Rogers Fairchild, a nationally prominent tax expert who had published on forest taxation as early as 1908. Unfortunately, rigid adhearence to a departmental publication rule that "studies" could not be indexed, only "books" could, caused a meticulously prepared index to be jettisoned. Thus the only road map to this hefty contribution is a minimal table of contents for each "part," as regulations allowed "chapters" to appear only in "books." Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:18:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Nelsen Subject: Re[4]: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Victoria wrote: "Yes, I remember that there was a recent discussion on this list about the fact that some computer publishers are starting to bring indexers in-house. I work freelance because that's what works for me. I sometimes strongly envy those who get to leave the office at the end of the day, not to need to return until the next. I would say that is a primary benefit of working in-house, not to be taken lightly." Don't be too envious, Victoria - there are days when we in-house people come in at 7, work till 6, and still take work home with us! (That's not on a regular basis, but it does happen). The main benefits of being in-house for me are having job security (which is more a benefit of the particular company I work for, perhaps), insurance, vacation, sick time, paid-for equipment and technical support, etc. -Christine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing Amen! Fortunately overtime isn't a constant, but deadlines are deadlines no matter where you work! -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pauline Sholtys [SMTP:PSholtys@GROLIER.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 10:33 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing > > Victoria Baker wrote: > I sometimes strongly envy those who get to leave the office at the end > of the day, not to need to return until the next. I would say that is > a primary benefit of working in-house, not to be taken lightly. > > True, in-house indexers get to leave the office at the end of the day. > However, during crunch periods the day can stretch to 12 or more > hours--I've > been known to put in two or three 16-hour days in a row to meet a > deadline. > Not to mention coming in on Saturday and Sunday, and bringing work home. > There are a lot of benefits to working in-house, but working strictly > 9-to-5 isn't necessarily one of them. > > Pauline Sholtys > psholtys@grolier.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:57:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Indexing citations (was footnote on scanning) The majority of medical serial publications and I would suspect many medical books follow the Vancouver Style or as it it more commonly know is the one used by the National Library of Medicine. The complete format can be found in the January issue of many medical journals such as New England Journal Medicine, Lancet, JAMA etc. Allied health professions have a tendency to follow APA. I don't have a copy of the Vancouver style handy but if I remember correctly, et al is used when 7 or more authors are present. Roberta Horowitz At 07:06 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >Actually it's et al. (for et alia) and the number of authors varies with >academic style. I am a little snippy about this, as I currently am >correcting a copyediting job in which I have to add more names to >citations. In American Psychological Association (APA) style, all first >citations of five and fewer authors include all authors in the first >citation, with et al. (with esoteric exceptions) being employed after the >first cite. > >Many scientific books (such as the one on audiology I am currently dealing >with) follow APA style. > >At 09:32 AM 6/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >>In scientific articles, the "el al" is always used when a paper with three or >>more authors is cited. Also, the generally accepted order of author names >is: >>first author, the person who did the most work (if not all of the work); >second, >>third, etc, other people who did some work or contributed in some way to the >>work, but to a lesser degree, and the last author (also called senior author) >>who is often the head of the lab or the person who's funding supported the >>project. The first and last author are usually the most important and >everyone >>else in between don't really matter (but don't tell them that). At least >this >>is the case for scientific research publications. >> >>Hope this helps. >> >>Maxine >> >>Maxine M. Okazaki >>Okazaki Consulting >>mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu >> >> >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth > >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:10:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexing citations This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_896893857_boundary Content-ID: <0_896893857@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Forward from Kay Banning, who's having trouble with her server: I index names in social sciences and education textbooks the same way Do Mi does. That is, I would only index Isaacman from Carol's example, following the logic of Do Mi's reason (b) that the reader would not find the other authors on the page and would thus be confused. Kay Banning --part0_896893857_boundary Content-ID: <0_896893857@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.1]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:05:03 -0400 Received: from atlas.axiom.net (atlas.axiom.net [208.21.239.3]) by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id KAA26938 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:05:01 -0400 (EDT) From: banden@mail.thrifty.net Received: from p91.thrifty.net (p91.thrifty.net [208.21.239.91]) by atlas.axiom.net (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA08492 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:02:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806031402.JAA08492@atlas.axiom.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: dstaub11@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:07:25 +0000 Subject: (Fwd) name indexes Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Do Mi, For some reason I'm having trouble posting to Index-L. I have it set to REPRO, so I should get a copy of my messages, but my mail program does not seem to be sending my postings. Could you verify whether the following post went out on Index-L? Thanks. Hope all is well at your house. Elinor's swim team is going strong and she is enjoying it. I was able to take her to a Wallflowers concert recently thanks to Roland's music connections. Big fun, first rock concert! Kay ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: name indexes Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:55:08 I index names in social sciences and education textbooks the same way Do Mi does. That is, I would only index Isaacman from Carol's example, following the logic of Do Mi's reason (b) that the reader would not find the other authors on the page and would thus be confused. Kay Banning > Carol wrote: > > << Isaacman and colleagues (1980, 599) describe the > suppression . . . ." It would have been a PITB to have to look up the names > in the biblio. >> > > Now this is interesting! When I'm indexing citations, and the citation in the > text reads "Isaacman et al." or "Isaacman and colleagues," I index only > Isaacman. I figure that a) if the author didn't care enough about the other > people to put them in the text they shouldn't go in the index and b) if > someone looked up one of the other people they wouldn't find them. I've never > done it any other way. Am I in the minority here?? > > Do Mi > > --part0_896893857_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:17:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: personal names in subs I wrote: << I always, after stewing, end up spelling out the name: > > moral economy, Edward P. Thompson on > > and alphabetizing under E (Edward P. seems like a little much to ignore).>> Ann wrote: << I got confused here. Alphabetizing what under E? Not "moral economy" surely? Help. Or...wait a minute...is this a run-on index? (I thought Carol just had a semi-colon in the subentry). OK, if that's it, I get it! Could you possibly put it in twice, once alphabetized as E and once as T, for those who might be looking for Thompson? This would only be necessary if there were lots of subentries for moral economy; with just a few, the reader would be able to scan quickly and find Thompson even if he was under E. Am I making sense, ot totally missing the point? >> I meant alphabetized within the subentries. (I don't think it matters if it's a run-on or indented index.) (Carol had given as one of her possibilities wording it as Edward Thompson but ignoring the "Edward" among the subheadings.) There would have to really be a lot of subentries under Moral economy before I would double-post one; I think a reader could scan. And as I said, none of the solutions are perfect--the slight scanning difficulty is the flaw in this one. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:30:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Whoa! Please stop! (or at least pause...) All - I recently posted a piece commenting on John Hedtke's keynote address at ASI in Seattle. In my posting I suggested that in these times of cost-cutting and downsizing it might be a good thing to be able to do both in-house and freeelance indexing. My exact words were: "Prosper in both environments". It had to do with choice, with not being unduly afraid of the future, and with the advantages of versatility. I believe that being able to freelance when needed is fine, and having an enriching in-house position is fine, also. Whatever floats your boat. But my comments were addressed to what one might do if one's in-house boat starts to sink... Now, some people incredibly interpreted this as a criticism and said :"...please, let's not start singling out in-house or freelancers for criticism." Singling out for criticism? No! Not at all! My posting was not a criticism of anything. It was not a comparison of the merits of one venue over another. It simply was a suggestion that in harsh and competitive times versatility is a good survival skill. It was a thoughtful and supportive suggestion, presented in a humorous, non-threatening way, based on some serious comments John Hedtke made at Seattle. Now, it appears that my posting has touched a resonant chord in many people. There is much to be said on the merits and disadvantages of in-house vs. freelance indexing and why people choose one or the other. This is a fine topic for discussion, one that I do not remember having been discussed in depth on Index-L in recent years. Moderate and thoughtful postings (for example, the Victoria Baker, Pauline Sholtys and Christine Nelsen reponses) are useful to us all. A restrained and well-thought-out discussion of the various venues would enrich our understanding of the realities of each other's working lives. Also, such a discussion would be most helpful to newbies, and to persons seriously considering changing jobs whether from choice or through hard necessity. But knowing how things can go on Index-L, it is entirely possible that this unfortunate misreading and misunderstanding of my commentary could trigger a less helpful exchange. Please let's not allow this really useful discussion to devolve into an argumentative, plaintive thread on alleged criticism of in- house and/or freelance indexing, or Why We All Should Be Free To Choose, or whatever. People then will jump in and flail away, defending their positions against attacks that never were made in the first place. Nobody will remember how it started. It will go on and on long after the original thoughts have been obscured by layers of misunderstanding and irrelevant controversy. We will have lost a great opportunity to illuminate and explore the realities of professional indexing. If you wish to do any or all of the above, feel free. That's what Index-L is for. I will, as always, read with interest all your divers commentaries. But PLEASE CHANGE THE "SUBJECT" LINE. Again, best wishes to you all. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:42:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Follow-up I, for one, as an in-house indexer, did not receive Bob's original message (refering to Amphibians) as critical of either in-housers or freelancers. I thought it was entertaining and had a lot of truth in it. All of us in-housers are aware of the current trend in the publishing industry (which could change at any time!) to move away from in-house staff and towards use of freelancers, so his comments were appropriate and topical. I didn't take it as an attack on either side, and versatility is always a virtue. I second his hope that if anyone has taken anything said so far as derrogatory, please quote the offensive comment specifically and explain calmly your own position. You may find that when you go to find the specific offensive quote that you misread it-- that has certainly happened to me! It's a good rule of thumb before firing up that "Send" key! -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM [SMTP:ROBJRICH@AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 1:30 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Whoa! Please stop! (or at least pause...) > > All - > > I recently posted a piece commenting on John Hedtke's keynote address at > ASI > in Seattle. In my posting I suggested that in these times of cost-cutting > and > downsizing it might be a good thing to be able to do both in-house and > freeelance indexing. My exact words were: "Prosper in both > environments". > It had to do with choice, with not being unduly afraid of the future, and > with the advantages of versatility. > > I believe that being able to freelance when needed is fine, and having an > enriching in-house position is fine, also. Whatever floats your boat. > But my > comments were addressed to what one might do if one's in-house boat starts > to > sink... > > Now, some people incredibly interpreted this as a criticism and said > :"...please, let's not start singling out in-house or freelancers for > criticism." Singling out for criticism? No! Not at all! My posting > was > not a criticism of anything. It was not a comparison of the merits of one > venue over another. It simply was a suggestion that in harsh and > competitive > times versatility is a good survival skill. It was a thoughtful and > supportive suggestion, presented in a humorous, non-threatening way, based > on > some serious comments John Hedtke made at Seattle. > > Now, it appears that my posting has touched a resonant chord in many > people. > There is much to be said on the merits and disadvantages of in-house vs. > freelance indexing and why people choose one or the other. This is a fine > topic for discussion, one that I do not remember having been discussed in > depth on Index-L in recent years. Moderate and thoughtful postings (for > example, the Victoria Baker, Pauline Sholtys and Christine Nelsen > reponses) > are useful to us all. A restrained and well-thought-out discussion of the > various venues would enrich our understanding of the realities of each > other's > working lives. Also, such a discussion would be most helpful to newbies, > and > to persons seriously considering changing jobs whether from choice or > through > hard necessity. > > But knowing how things can go on Index-L, it is entirely possible that > this > unfortunate misreading and misunderstanding of my commentary could trigger > a > less helpful exchange. Please let's not allow this really useful > discussion > to devolve into an argumentative, plaintive thread on alleged criticism of > in- > house and/or freelance indexing, or Why We All Should Be Free To Choose, > or > whatever. People then will jump in and flail away, defending their > positions > against attacks that never were made in the first place. Nobody will > remember how it started. It will go on and on long after the original > thoughts have been obscured by layers of misunderstanding and irrelevant > controversy. We will have lost a great opportunity to illuminate and > explore > the realities of professional indexing. > > If you wish to do any or all of the above, feel free. That's what Index-L > is > for. I will, as always, read with interest all your divers commentaries. > But > PLEASE CHANGE THE "SUBJECT" LINE. > > Again, best wishes to you all. > > Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:20:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Stephen E. Bach" Subject: Amphibians and Freelance Indexing > "... Learn to freelance! > Then you can work under extreme pressure, to impossible > deadlines, for demanding editors, at minimal pay! And you also can pay your > own overhead, contribute to FICA, search for affordable medical insurance, > select any twelve hours a day that you choose to work, clean the cat-hair > from your mouse (cats and mice still don't get along), and wonder if you > ever can schedule a four-week vacation. The benefits are obvious!" This is why, in 1995, after a six-week period of 14-hour days and non-stop deadlines, feeling that I didn't want to spend the next 20 years of my life that way, I started a network marketing business. While it is growing I still have my indexing income. But eventually I'll be able to kiss the deadlines goodbye (I've already reduced my workload), kiss other people's schedules goodbye, have a great residual income, and have the time to enjoy it. Plus, no one can downsize me. It's worth looking into. Stephen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:22:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Indexing front/back cover There is indexable material on the inside front and back covers of a book I am indexing. I am not sure what to use in place of page numbers. Any suggestions? The problem I have is making it clear that "inside back cover" is a locator. If I try information, see inside back cover I'm afraid a reader will think this is a cross reference. But if I drop the "see" the reader might try to combine the ideas: information, inside back cover - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:26:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Amphibians and Freelance Indexing In a message dated 98-06-03 14:23:35 EDT, Stephen wrote: << I started a network marketing business. >> What is network marketing? Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:38:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover In a message dated 98-06-03 14:26:33 EDT, you write: << There is indexable material on the inside front and back covers of a book I am indexing. I am not sure what to use in place of page numbers. Any suggestions? The problem I have is making it clear that "inside back cover" is a locator. If I try information, see inside back cover I'm afraid a reader will think this is a cross reference. But if I drop the "see" the reader might try to combine the ideas: information, inside back cover >> Maybe you could say: 'unnumbered page, inside back cover' I am in a related pickle right now. After my magazine was redesigned, the cover story literally started on the cover (You have to see this to believe it, folks!) The story picks up midsentence in the body of the magazine. I have been instructed to list the page number of the cover (it does have one) a comma, and the range for the article. I feel like a dunce. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:48:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Whoa! Please stop! (or at least pause...) Bob Richardson writes: << Now, some people incredibly interpreted this as a criticism and said :"...please, let's not start singling out in-house or freelancers for criticism." Singling out for criticism? >> That would be me... you can use my name, I don't mind. :) It's just that I've seen this list deteriorate into freelance vs. in-house debates in the past, and I was hoping to head anything off before it started. Yes, you specifically said to "prosper in both environments." That's good advice -- I can't disagree with that. I do think it's a little premature to assume that in-house work is no longer secure, and that in-house indexers are "clinging like grim death to this illusory security." I think there's security to be found in both areas, although I'm sure it depends on the company. Maybe not *all* in-house work is an island; maybe some of use are safely land-locked and just have no time to swim. Erika Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:57:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Charging for printing When a client provides you with softcopy files, do you charge for printing? How much? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:09:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Charging for printing In-Reply-To: Richard Evans "Charging for printing" (Jun 3, 2:57pm) Dick writes: > When a client provides you with softcopy files, do you charge for printing? > How much? I consider this part of my overhead. If I have to hold up my work while I print, I might consider adding the printing time to my final bill, but it depends on the length -- and if I *really* can't do anything until it prints. Of course, if I have to travel to do the printing (as I would if I wanted photocopies), I would charge for both the time and the printing costs. Finally, if the amount of printing I have to do is enormous, then I might figure out some way to compensate myself. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:20:00 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover Seth wrote: > There is indexable material on the inside front and back covers of > a book I am indexing. I am not sure what to use in place of page numbers. > Any suggestions? > > The problem I have is making it clear that "inside back cover" is a > locator. If I try In such cases I always used italics: ^inside back cover^. In Nell's case, I would put ^front cover^, 12-18 (or whatever).... Hope this helps, Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:51:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover How about: information, 0 (inside back cover) information, 0 (inside front cover) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:17:40 -0600 Reply-To: mcnulty@montana.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne or Moose McNulty Subject: confirmation letter Ann N. Thanks so much for sharing your confirmation letter with all. As I am a newbie, I am not in a position to give any feedback regarding your letter. It will be of great help to me when I'm actually writing one myself. Thanks! Joanne a newbie! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:36:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Bryant Subject: Re: Amphibians and Freelance Indexing At 02:26 PM 06/03/1998 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 98-06-03 14:23:35 EDT, >Stephen wrote: ><< I started a network marketing business. >> >What is network marketing? >Nell > > Stephen, please respond to the list. I had the same question. Charlotte ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:03:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Carr Subject: Re: atlases I've been wondering this for a while--does anyone know how the indexes to atlases are compiled? Anyone have experience with this? Maybe this would be a way to combine indexing and my B.A. in geography... Thoughts? Chris Carr cccjlc@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:31:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Schwilk Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover How about information, front endpaper information, back endpaper ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:35:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: personal names in subs >> Carol wrote: >> >>>The book I'm indexing discusses several Thompsons (researchers). In one >>>place in particular, it's necessary to use the name in a subentry, but I'll >>>need to distinguish this Thompson from the others. What would you do? > Do Mi wrote: >> >> I'm always stewing about this too. I don't think there's an ideal way to do >> it. I always, after stewing, end up spelling out the name: >> >> moral economy, Edward P. Thompson on >> >> and alphabetizing under E (Edward P. seems like a little much to ignore). >> >>I actually kind of like your parentheses solution, but I could see some >>editors balking. Anybody have a really graceful way to handle this? This is a perfect description of what I go through! I like the way the name reads, but I'm never thoroughly satisfied with the method because I know it won't work in long lists of subheadings. Inverting the name, however, always seems too interruptive, too clumsy. Joanne's suggestion of using inverted initials and Carol's suggestion of using parentheses, as in "moral economy, Thompson (Edward P.) on" seem like good improvements but they both suffer from the same basic objection. At this point in mulling over this perennial problem I like Ann's solution, "For names belonging to only one person, I just use the last name", combined with either Joanne's or Carol's suggestion in cases of two or more persons having identical last names. Ann Norcross continued: >. . . And is it important to put the thing the person did >(or said) first in the subentry, or do you put the name first? For >instance, William Greeley made an influential series of talks to >various organizations. I had these entries: > >Greeley, William > NAS address > SAF address >NAS (National Academy of Sciences) > Greeley address >SAF (Society of American Foresters) > Greeley address > >Does that seem right? Yes it does -- this is just how I do it. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:41:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Dictionaires On The Web The following Web site contains listings for over 200 dictionaries that can be searched. What is nice about it is that it organizes the dictionaries by general subject areas. You can search in a specific area or all the dictionaries. http://www.onelook.com Roberta Horowitz rhorowitz@acm.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:31:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Thompsons In answer to Carol Roberts' question about how to distinguish several Thompsons all writing on the same subject, I would index the subject as "moral economy: E. P. Thompson on." Edward P. Thompson really *was* better known as "E. P." Thompson (my husband studied with him) and the next Thompson who writes about moral economy (let's say Richard Thompson) will follow nicely and cleanly. The whole thing would work as moral economy: E. P. Thompson on, 10; R. F. Thompson on, 15 And Maria Coughlin is currently the editor of _Key Words_. Her email address is mariac@indexing.com Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:17:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: personal names in subs Ann and Michael wrote: << And is it important to put the thing the person did >(or said) first in the subentry, or do you put the name first? For >instance, William Greeley made an influential series of talks to >various organizations. I had these entries: > >Greeley, William > NAS address > SAF address >NAS (National Academy of Sciences) > Greeley address >SAF (Society of American Foresters) > Greeley address > >Does that seem right? Yes it does -- this is just how I do it. >> Me too--Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:28:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dictionaires On The Web All - Yup! Another great reference website is the Librarian's Pot O' Gold: HTTP://WWW.sau.edu/cwis/internet/wild/Refdesk/Encyclo/encindex.htm Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:42:35 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Thompsons At 07:31 PM 3/06/98 -0500, Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: >In answer to Carol Roberts' question about how to distinguish several >Thompsons all writing on the same subject, I would index the subject as >"moral economy: E. P. Thompson on." Edward P. Thompson really *was* better >known as "E. P." Thompson (my husband studied with him) and the next >Thompson who writes about moral economy (let's say Richard Thompson) will >follow nicely and cleanly. The whole thing would work as > moral economy: E. P. Thompson on, 10; R. F. Thompson on, 15 I have been reading all the messages about Thompsons, and wondering whether other indexers share my impression that "Thompson" seems to have leapt into the lead as the most common surname in the English-speaking world. For instance, in a very long index which I compile, covering a school magazine from 1875 (yes, that's 1875) to date, the Thompsons (with various spellings) outnumber the Smiths and Browns by a fair number. Once I saw a list of the most common surnames in English-language countries (I remember that Walker came sixth), but I didn't keep a copy. Does anyone have it or know where it was published? Alan **************************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:10:47 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Thompsons >From Christine Headley Following this thread in a fairly detached manner, I found myself wondering whether this Thompson person was E.P.Thompson. I suppose if pressed I would have guessed that EP's Christian name might be Edward if I couldn't think of any other. I wouldn't be surprised to find him writing on moral economy, even if I can't remember what his main subject is - history of a left-wing nature? Edward Thompson, however, would ring no bells at all. Christine Hong Kong Laura M. Gottlieb wrote: > > In answer to Carol Roberts' question about how to distinguish several > Thompsons all writing on the same subject, I would index the subject as > "moral economy: E. P. Thompson on." Edward P. Thompson really *was* better > known as "E. P." Thompson (my husband studied with him) and the next > Thompson who writes about moral economy (let's say Richard Thompson) will > follow nicely and cleanly. The whole thing would work as > moral economy: E. P. Thompson on, 10; R. F. Thompson on, 15 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:14:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: atlases I know National Geographic hires indexers. I have often been tempted to apply but their pay on the low side. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:30:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: More on Thompsons 4 June 1998 Another thought on how to list several different "Thompsons" as a subheading both to distinguish one from the other and to save space. If you're working in CINDEX, you can use angle brackets to keep the author's initials from sorting, so you could type in moral economy: Smith on, 9; Thompson on, 15; Thompson on, 10; Zweig on, 20 CINDEX will print this entry as moral economy: Jill Smith on, 9; E. P. Thompson on, 15; R. T. Thompson on, 10; F. T. Zweig on, 20 In other words, CINDEX will sort the subentries by last name first, *then* by initials or first name, and you can dispense with the temptation to clutter the subentry with parentheses. In addition, both Thompsons will be in close alignment and easily distinguishable from each other and you can save space by using the initials rather than writing out the full name. And, by this time, the index to the book with the Thompsons has probably already been completed and turned in! :) Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:02:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: in-house/freelance In-Reply-To: <199806040412.AAA29654@lamb.sas.com> from "Automatic digest processor" at Jun 4, 98 00:00:30 am Victoria Baker wrote: > I sometimes strongly envy those who get to leave the office at the end > of the day, not to need to return until the next. I would say that is > a primary benefit of working in-house, not to be taken lightly. And Pauline made the astute observation: > True, in-house indexers get to leave the office at the end of the day. > However, during crunch periods the day can stretch to 12 or more hours--I've > been known to put in two or three 16-hour days in a row to meet a deadline. > Not to mention coming in on Saturday and Sunday, and bringing work home. > There are a lot of benefits to working in-house, but working strictly > 9-to-5 isn't necessarily one of them. Even on days that I go home after 7 hours (we "officially" have 7-hour workdays here), I usually do freelance work in the evenings. Right now, we are in crunch time, working on a major software release and all of the books that go with it. I work the hours that are required, without overtime pay. I'm not complaining! I love my job(s)! :-) I agree with Christine that the biggest benefit of an in-house position is the BENEFITS. I don't mean to say that one is better than the other. Like anything else, both sides have negatives and positives, and it's also a matter of preference. Joan sasjcs@unx.sas.com jstout@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:28:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: personal names in subs In-Reply-To: <199806040414.XAA07170@mixcom.mixcom.com> Thanks, everybody, for the suggestions. Like others, when there's no possibility of confusion, I use just the last name. For the multiple Thompsons, I rather like Ann Norcross's and Laura Gottlieb's idea of dropping down to initials (more easily ignored in visual scanning) and not inverting. This is how it looks with some more subs: moral economy, landed, 37-44; as anti-capitalist, 42; and interpretation of tradition, 43-44; vs. market economy, 41, 214n5; and patronage, 40, 41; of peasant societies, 38-40, 214n4; and self-interest, 41; and subsistence ethic vs. risk-bearing, 39-40, 41-42, 43, 44, 214n4; E. P. Thompson on, 37-38, 41, 42 I think the E. P. is easy to ignore visually, and anyone looking for Thompson (who, apparently, is famously associated with the notion of moral economy) will look toward the end of the list of subs. FWIW, I prefer indented format, but this particular client is partial to run-in. BTW, this situation comes up even more often in biographies. Which of these would you choose (keeping in mind there would be a long list of subs)? Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends Doheny's funeral Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends Edward's funeral Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends her husband's funeral I tend to use that last form for very close relatives. My subs in biogs. tend to take a more narrative form in general. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:09:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: More on Thompsons I do think that we should remember that Edward, a.k.a. E. P., Thompson was an example. I've found myself with both Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt in a group subheadings. In this case, I don't think initials are appropriate. Laura, would you still alphabetize under Roosevelt in this case? (Macrex, of course, can also hide anything from the sort.) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:12:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: personal names in subs Carol wrote: << BTW, this situation comes up even more often in biographies. Which of these would you choose (keeping in mind there would be a long list of subs)? Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends Doheny's funeral Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends Edward's funeral Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) attends her husband's funeral >> I think I would use the last one, depending on the rest of the book. If Doheny were the main subject of the biography, I might abbreviate him in all subheads: attends ED's funeral Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:25:27 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: personal names in subs >Carol wrote: > ><< BTW, this situation comes up even more often in biographies. Which of these > would you choose (keeping in mind there would be a long list of subs)? > > Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) > attends Doheny's funeral > > Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) > attends Edward's funeral > > Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) > attends her husband's funeral >> Do Mi wrote: I think I would use the last one, depending on the rest of the book. If Doheny >were the main subject of the biography, I might abbreviate him in all >subheads: > attends ED's funeral I think I would put: attends husband's funeral or even: at husband's funeral of if space were even tighter, I'd go with Do Mi's solution. Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:59:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Printing PDF files A client has sent me a sample PDF file that I am trying to print with Acrobat 3.0. I am printing to a Lexmark laser printer rated at 16 pages per minute. Acrobat prints the file at about 2 pages per minute for about 20 pages then lapses into garbage. Any ideas? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:01:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: personal names in subs Carol Roberts wrote: > > Thanks, everybody, for the suggestions. Like others, when there's no > possibility of confusion, I use just the last name. For the multiple > Thompsons, I rather like Ann Norcross's and Laura Gottlieb's idea of > dropping down to initials (more easily ignored in visual scanning) and not > inverting. This is how it looks with some more subs: > > moral economy, landed, 37-44; as anti-capitalist, 42; and interpretation of > tradition, 43-44; vs. market economy, 41, 214n5; and patronage, 40, 41; of > peasant societies, 38-40, 214n4; and self-interest, 41; and subsistence > ethic vs. risk-bearing, 39-40, 41-42, 43, 44, 214n4; E. P. Thompson on, > 37-38, 41, 42 > > I think the E. P. is easy to ignore visually, and anyone looking for > Thompson (who, apparently, is famously associated with the notion of moral > economy) will look toward the end of the list of subs. FWIW, I prefer > indented format, but this particular client is partial to run-in. > > BTW, this situation comes up even more often in biographies. Which of these > would you choose (keeping in mind there would be a long list of subs)? I would use this one (with the word "her" deleted): > Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) > attends husband's funeral Also, would you need one where "funeral" is the key word? > Doheny, Estelle (Edward Doheny's wife) > funeral of husband perhaps? Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:03:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: More on Thompsons DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: > > I do think that we should remember that Edward, a.k.a. E. P., Thompson was an > example. I've found myself with both Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt in a > group subheadings. In this case, I don't think initials are appropriate. Do Mi, can you say more about why F. D. Roosevelt and T. E. Roosevelt would not be appropriate here? Thanks. Ann (always interested...) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:10:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: Printing PDF Just sort of brainstorming.... Does the file display OK in Acrobat Reader? What version of the Reader are you using (current version is 3.01 or 3.02, I think). It's possible the printer (is it a PostScript printer? probably wouldn't print at all if it weren't, I guess?) is running out of memory. Did you try printing small ranges of pages? Does the portion that is printing look OK? Was the PDF emailed to you? PDFs can sometimes get corrupted; they need to be sent as binaries. Sometimes it helps to zip them -- doesn't reduce the file size, but it might help them survive the email trip. John Sullivan Stratus Computer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:42:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of And who will you get to do the index, Sonsie? ;D (Seriously, my father-in- law would LOVE a book like that so he wouldn't have to keep inventing his answers!) Nancy Noyes All Write ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Printing PDF files In-Reply-To: <199806042000.QAA30202@camel26.mindspring.com> Are the fonts looking okay? Often, when you make a PDF file, you forget to check the box that says "Include downloadable fonts" and that can lead to printing problems. If you suspect it is a font problem, you could ask the person sending the files to remake the PDF ensuring that downloadable fonts are included. The other idea could be that you are overtaxing the memory of the printer - are you printing it "1-300" in one batch or are you sending smaller print batches "1-10", "11-20", "21-30". I will often break up the print job, especially with large postscript files (which is essentially what PDf is). It taxes the memory less. It shouldn't work that way, but it seems to. Jan At 03:59 PM 6/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >A client has sent me a sample PDF file that I am trying to print with >Acrobat 3.0. I am printing to a Lexmark laser printer rated at 16 pages >per minute. Acrobat prints the file at about 2 pages per minute for about >20 pages then lapses into garbage. > >Any ideas? > >Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Steve C Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover >There is indexable material on the inside front and back covers of >a book I am indexing. I am not sure what to use in place of page numbers. >Any suggestions? > [cut -- Seth's second suggestion below] > > information, inside back cover >- Seth > >-- >Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) > I've used the approach Seth suggested above. The entries were Campus map, inside back cover Degree programs [some subentries] summary listing, inside back cover Map of the campus, inside back cover The designer and I talked about what to say, and we finally agreed on this approach. Surely if readers have used the book at all they probably (hopefully?) will remember seeing something on the inside covers. -- Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:43:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: More on Thompsons << > I do think that we should remember that Edward, a.k.a. E. P., Thompson was an example. I've found myself with both Franklin and Theodore Roosevelt in a group subheadings. In this case, I don't think initials are appropriate.>> Ann wrote: <> I guess it's because we don't usually refer to presidents by their initials. It "feels" wrong to me. But that doesn't mean it IS wrong...other opinions, please? Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of At 05:42 PM 6/4/1998 EDT, Nancy Noyes wrote: >And who will you get to do the index, Sonsie? ;D (Seriously, my father-in- >law would LOVE a book like that so he wouldn't have to keep inventing his >answers!) Actually, the book itself is already in more-or-less indexed condition; what I think would make it even more useful is a "lists" section...Greek gods, obscure Eastern European cities, Polish presidents, four-letter words containing x, j, or z, and so forth. One of these days, when I have nothing else to do, I =will= tackle that project... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:17:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Artificial Neural Networks I am looking at samples of a 650-page book on artificial neural networks. It is a publication of the IEEE aimed at "graduate students and researchers working in the area of artifical neural networks and parallel computing." My first impression is that it is way over my head, but before I turn the client down I'd like to be able to offer him some alternatives. If you recognize the following topics as something you really understand, please drop me a note offline: "Theoretical analysis of parallel implementation schemes on MIMD message passing machines." "Parallel implementation of BP neural networks on a general purpose, large, pralllel computer." "Parallel mapping of multilayer feedforward neural networks with BP learning on homogeneous and hetereogeneous processor array in a ring topology." These are all taken from one page of the preface. The actual text gets worse. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 16:29:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Indexing Workshop in New Mexico - June 20 There's still time to sign up for our summer workshop! "Considering Your Audience for a Quality Index" ...a workshop conducted by Anne Leach The A to Zia Indexers (ASI's newest chapter, in New Mexico!!) invite you to join us on Saturday, June 20 (10:00 - 2:30) for our summer meeting. A panel of local indexers who attended the annual meeting in Seattle will report on the activities they participated in, and after lunch Anne Leach will present her workshop. This will be a great workshop for both experienced indexers and those who are just getting started (see workshop description below). The meeting will be held at the Lomas/Tramway branch of the Albuquerque Public Library (908 Eastridge Dr NE, Albuquerque, one block west of Tramway off of Lomas). Bring your own lunch; dessert will be provided. The $25 charge for this special meeting will cover workshop materials and help defray our guest=92s travel expenses. For more information, contact Carolin= e Parks (505-286-2738; caroline@rt66.com). Please register before June 12th by printing and filling out the registration form (at the end of this message) and mailing it to Nancy Ford, 66 Skyland, Tijeras, NM 87059. To register after June 12th, contact Caroline Parks at the above phone number. Workshop description: Considering Your Audience for a Quality Index =85a workshop conducted by Anne Leach Every book can be expected to have at least two audiences=97maybe even more than two=97and the indexer must keep them all in mind when designing main headings and subheadings. In this two-hour workshop, Anne will discuss term selection for multiple audiences for each of the following types of works: technical material, textbooks, and scholarly publications. Participants will do exercises including examples from published indexes, including Wilson Award winners. In 1985, Anne agreed to write an index as a favor to a writer friend. With a degree in English and 15 years in the corporate accounting world, Anne figured an index couldn=92t be that hard to do. The surprise was that she enjoyed it. Seeking further information about a career in indexing, she contacted the late BevAnne Ross, joined the Golden Gate Chapter of ASI, took the USDA course, and slowly gained regular clients. She=92s been indexing freelance ever since. She has been continuously active in a local chapter of ASI (the SoCal chapter since her move back to the Southland), served as chair of ASI=92s Publicity Committee for two years, was elected to two three-year terms on the ASI Board, and for six years was editor of Key Words. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D REGISTRATION FORM INDEXING WORKSHOP -- CONSIDERING YOUR AUDIENCE FOR A QUALITY INDEX Please enclose $25 and mail to: Nancy Ford 66 Skyland Tijeras, NM 87059 (Make checks payable to A to Zia Indexers) Name ___________________________________________________ Company ________________________________________________ Address ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ Phone ___________________________ Fax _____________________________ Email address __________________________________________ ____________________________ Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence Indexing and Editorial Services Tijeras, NM =20 505-286-2738 caroline@rt66.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carol T. Bradford" Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of In-Reply-To: <199806050102.VAA17890@freedom.cce.cornell.edu> >what I think would make it even more useful is a "lists" section...Greek gods, >obscure Eastern European cities, Polish presidents, four-letter words >containing x, j, or z, and so forth. =Sonsie= I think what is being described here is what was called a "commonplace book." I know W.H. Auden published one, but I'm sure they're much older than that. Trivia, odd little bits of information, excerpts of poetry, dinner menus that came together particularly well, what blooms with what, lists of all the different kinds of candy you can buy at the movies---that kind of stuff. My 11th grade English teacher, Miss Ida Passamonti, told us to keep one so that if we ever became novelists we would have the details we needed to flesh out the stories. I still have the one I started then, but I didn't keep it up. I'm glad some people did. Does anyone know if others have been published? ****************************************************************************** Carol T. Bradford c/o Home and Garden e-mail:cbradfor@cce.cornell.edu Syracuse Newspapers Fax:315-470-2111 P.O. Box 4915 Syracuse, New York 13221 ****************************************************************************** o ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 22:05:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of At 10:41 PM 6/4/1998 -0400, Carol T. Bradford wrote: >I think what is being described here is what was called a "commonplace >book." I know W.H. Auden published one, but I'm sure they're much older >than that. Trivia, odd little bits of information, excerpts of poetry, >dinner menus that came together particularly well, what blooms with what, >lists of all the different kinds of candy you can buy at the movies---that >kind of stuff. What a neat idea! And it even has a special name. I hope somebody HAS published such a thing; it would be a delight to read. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:28:54 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: "et al." Actually, "et al." stands for "et alii" (if at least one of the joint authors is male) or "et aliae" (if all the joint authors are female); "et alia" would mean "and other things", just as "inter alia" means "among other things". From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:57:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Artificial Neural Networks Dick, Even with 35 years as a medical transcriptionist, this is over my head! Good luck in finding someone willing to tackle this monster! Jeri Lee Richard Evans wrote: > > I am looking at samples of a 650-page book on artificial neural networks. > It is a publication of the IEEE aimed at "graduate students and researchers > working in the area of artifical neural networks and parallel computing." > > My first impression is that it is way over my head, but before I turn the > client down I'd like to be able to offer him some alternatives. If you > recognize the following topics as something you really understand, please > drop me a note offline: > > "Theoretical analysis of parallel implementation schemes on MIMD message > passing machines." > > "Parallel implementation of BP neural networks on a general purpose, large, > pralllel computer." > > "Parallel mapping of multilayer feedforward neural networks with BP > learning on homogeneous and hetereogeneous processor array in a ring > topology." > > These are all taken from one page of the preface. The actual text gets worse. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:02:48 +0900 Reply-To: stroud@mail.netvigator.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) >From Christine Headley Hong Kong Sonsie wrote: > > Carol T. Bradford wrote: > > >I think what is being described here is what was called a "commonplace > >book." I know W.H. Auden published one, but I'm sure they're much older > >than that. Trivia, odd little bits of information, excerpts of poetry, > >dinner menus that came together particularly well, what blooms with what, > >lists of all the different kinds of candy you can buy at the movies---that > >kind of stuff. > > What a neat idea! And it even has a special name. I hope somebody HAS > published such a thing; it would be a delight to read. > > =Sonsie= I believe John Julius Norwich used to send something like this to his friends as a lavish form of Christmas card, and a compilation (?) was eventually published. I may be imagining this, but I'm sure someone will correct me if my memory has made it up! Best Christine Hong Kong ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:02:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: "et al." In-Reply-To: <199806050532.WAA19620@powergrid.electriciti.com> et alia \()et-a-l(e-)ye, -a-, -a-\ [L] (1953) : and others (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated et al abbreviation [L et alii (masc.), et aliae (fem.), or et alia (neut.)] and others (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary (10th ed.) et al. is, in deed, abbreviation generally understood as the neutral et alia (and others), which anyone who has been served with legal papers as part of a group knows. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:07:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of Carol T. Bradford wrote: > > >what I think would make it even more useful is a "lists" section...Greek gods, > >obscure Eastern European cities, Polish presidents, four-letter words > >containing x, j, or z, and so forth. > =Sonsie= > > I think what is being described here is what was called a "commonplace > book." I know W.H. Auden published one, but I'm sure they're much older > than that. Trivia, odd little bits of information, excerpts of poetry, > dinner menus that came together particularly well, what blooms with what, > lists of all the different kinds of candy you can buy at the movies---that > kind of stuff. > > My 11th grade English teacher, Miss Ida Passamonti, told us to keep one so > that if we ever became novelists we would have the details we needed to > flesh out the stories. I still have the one I started then, but I didn't > keep it up. I'm glad some people did. Does anyone know if others have > been published? Thanks for putting a name to this item; makes all my collected scribblings seem more legitimate... now I want one of those Index Books, too :-). There's an online, interactive commonplace book here: http://sunsite.unc.edu/ibic/Commonplace-Book.html And http://www.amazon.com lists hundreds of published commonplace books--no blank ones, unfortunately. Ann Norcross ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:25:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) Christine Headley and Adrian Walker-Smith wrote: > > >From Christine Headley > Hong Kong > > Sonsie wrote: > > > > Carol T. Bradford wrote: > > > > >I think what is being described here is what was called a "commonplace > > >book." I know W.H. Auden published one, but I'm sure they're much older > > >than that. Trivia, odd little bits of information, excerpts of poetry, > > >dinner menus that came together particularly well, what blooms with what, > > >lists of all the different kinds of candy you can buy at the movies---that > > >kind of stuff. > > > > What a neat idea! And it even has a special name. I hope somebody HAS > > published such a thing; it would be a delight to read. > > > > =Sonsie= > > I believe John Julius Norwich used to send something like this to his > friends as a lavish form of Christmas card, and a compilation (?) was > eventually published. > > I may be imagining this, but I'm sure someone will correct me if my > memory has made it up! Man! People on this list know so many things; someone recently addressed a post to "Dear collective wisdom..." I like that. I've never heard of John Julius Norwich, or of commonplace books, but with the combined input from all of you I found: Christmas Cracker, by John Julius Norwich and More Christmas Crackers, by John Julius Norwich. Both seem to be out of print, but can be ordered from Amazon. What they do is look for a used copy, and then they let you know what they found. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140131051/002-2222074-6629838 and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0713913835/002-2222074-6629838 are the addresses where the order blank is. BUT.... I also found it--seemingly in print--on the Penguin Web site: http://www.penguin.co.uk/Penguin/Books/0140060529.html and http://www.penguin.co.uk/Penguin/Books/0140131051.html Ann Norcross (somedays I hate the 'Net, some days I love the 'Net) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:13:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Martin Ahermaa Subject: Re(2): Blank "index" books, uses of I do recall Thomas Jefferson keeping a commonplace book too. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:22:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Common-place Books Hello, I am a new participant and usually wouldn't jump in this early except for the reference to common-place books. These have been around at least since the 16th century and there is a nice description at the following site http://humanitas.ucsb.edu/depts/english/coursework/rar/commonplace.html I look forward to learning alot from this ng. Have a great weekend. Toni Clark Williams The Procyon Group Documentation Department ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:30:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Noyes Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of My grandfather, who had been a traveling salesman and then a dry goods store owner in VT, once kept a ledger book in much the same way. He pasted in sample cards of merchandise he peddled or stocked, pictures from current magazines and newspapers, and added his own thoughts and comments about daily life and society. He showed it to me when I was quite young and it made a lasting impression. I have since kept various blank books (not tabbed, all bound) in which I have made similar written observations for whoever follows me. Anyone else keeping 'closet books'? Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:42:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Ball This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD905D.E538B8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I visited the Relax Your Back store in (where else) Bellevue, WA yesterday. They had a reclining chair to be used with a reading-podium-affair on wheels designed to hold a laptop. (Price - a mere $1200) I've never been so comfortable! Has anyone ever tried indexing for 6 hours in such a device? Is it truly paradise or does it get old? or does it put one to sleep right away? Nancy Ball Nota Bene Indexing ------=_NextPart_000_01BD905D.E538B8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I visited the Relax Your Back store in = (where else) Bellevue, WA yesterday.  They had a reclining chair to = be used with a reading-podium-affair on wheels designed to hold a = laptop. (Price - a mere $1200)  I've never been so comfortable! =  Has anyone ever tried indexing for 6 hours in such a device? =  Is it truly paradise or does it get old? or does it put one to = sleep right away?

Nancy Ball
Nota Bene Indexing

------=_NextPart_000_01BD905D.E538B8E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:43:29 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liza Weinkove Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) I was just browsing in John Lewis (a UK department store) this afternoon, and noticed that they had two books on sale, which could possibly be used as commonplace books. One is called a "literary journal", the other just "journal". The books are ring bound, and they are divided into 6 or 7 sections, with each section distinguished by different coloured pages. Page one contained two pockets - presumably to hold loose bits of paper etc. Just thought someone might be interested - although most of you live a bit too far away for this info to be of any use! Liza Weinkove ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:02 -0500 Reply-To: mksmith1@bellsouth.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Organization: Smith Editorial Services Subject: Re: Blank "index" books, uses of Ah! A "Miscellanea" book! I have a bound bookkeeper-type journal, about 12" tall and 1-1/2" thick, bureaucrat-green fabric with leather(ette) edging, that I've been recording odds and ends irregularly in since graduate school (c1967, that is). It's about 3/4 full, now, and the books cost about six times what I would have paid for mine back then, if I hadn't bought it at an office supply close-out. I like the heft of it, and it sometimes makes me feel like a monk in a scriptorium. I got started with it shortly after reading "Way Station" by Clifford Simak... and every couple of years, I browse back through earlier entries and marvel at how naive I was in my (relative) youth! Mike Melinda Davis wrote: > In order to set your minds at ease that I don't do my indexes in > copperplate script in bound volumes, I will come clean on what I use > them for. Be forewarned--this may be more than you wanted to > know--it won't hurt my feelings for you to hit delete at any point. > The reason I posed the question to Index-L was not because I wanted > the blank index books for indexing, but because I figured if anybody > would have noticed them in a store, it would be an indexer. > > The index book that I have I started using to record new (to me) > and unusual words that I ran across--unusual in the sense of > particularly poetic (ex: cerculean, glaucous), particularly clever > (ex: hyphenate, a noun to describe a person with grander aspirations > than their current situation, like a waiter-writer), or particularly > hard for me to remember (ex: usufruct). It was a New Year's > Resolution that has lasted. Then I started slipping in other > tidbits, like the name and location of the teapot museum in Wales > (just in case I'm ever in the neighborhood), and place names that > caught my fancy (Algeciras, a ferry port opposite Gibraltar; > Beersheba Springs, TN.). (When I grow up, I want to write answers > for Jeopardy.) I think it would be nice to have separate books for > separate categories before things get any further out of hand. > > Address books are a good substitute--especially if the pages are > designed without every line being labeled with name, address, etc). > Address books have the advantage of being available in all sizes > and shapes--I have a pocket size that I carry with me with the > books that I'm looking for--and it's relatively easy to find > pretty ones--I love my basic black dress, but I don't want a generic > black address book. The down side (admittedly minor) is that they > usually say "address book" on the front and the picky side of me > wants it to say "index book" or "lists" or nothing at all. > > Although the binder and tabs would probably be the most efficient way > to go,, I would prefer a bound book. But at least there are > options. > > Thanks for your interest and I apologize for the confusion. > > Melinda Davis -- Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: mksmith1@bellsouth.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Organization: Smith Editorial Services Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover Very strange place to put useful info. I hope the publisher realizes that it's going to be lost to any library user who gets hold of a rebound copy.... Mike Seth A. Maislin wrote: > There is indexable material on the inside front and back covers of > a book I am indexing. I am not sure what to use in place of page numbers. > Any suggestions? > > The problem I have is making it clear that "inside back cover" is a > locator. If I try > > information, see inside back cover > > I'm afraid a reader will think this is a cross reference. But if I drop > the "see" the reader might try to combine the ideas: > > information, inside back cover > > - Seth > > -- > Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) > > O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services > 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street > Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 > (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 > (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com > URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth > co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org -- Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:06:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Vicki Birchfield Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) I love this thread. It reminded me of something I thought I'd seen, so I just verified this: Sei Shonagon, a court lady in tenth-century Japan. kept a journal called "Pillow Book" which primarily consisted of lists of her likes, her dislikes, and other tidbits. There's an excerpt from this work in "The Art of the Personal Essay", edited by Philip Lopate. Some examples of topics: Embarrassing Things, Depressing Things, Elegant Things. "Oxen should have very small foreheads" On hateful things: "One has been foolish enough to invite a man to spend the night in an unsuitable place - and then he starts snoring." Anyway, I think I heard that a film had been made based upon her journals. Anyone heard of it? Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:34:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses of) Hi, Vicki, I found this review when I briefly searched the net: The Pillow Book (U.K.) THE PILLOW BOOK tells the story of a Japanese girl, Nagiko Kiohara, growing up in Kyoto, Japan. Each of her birthdays, is marked by two significant customs: her father, a calligrapher and writer, paints a traditional birthday greeting on her face; and her aunt reads to her from the Japanese classic, The Pillow Book by Sei Shonagon, an aristocratic lady-in-waiting who lived during the end of the Tenth century in Heian Dynasty Japan. Written in journal fashion, the book describes Sei Shonagon's reverence for Imperial Court life, literature and the natural world. Young Nagiko's aunt persuades her to keep her own pillow book in homage to Sei Shonagon's journal. The idea of a common-place book has always intrigued me and in fact, I keep a very rudimentary one. However, being a rather lazy and unfocused person, it doesn't amount to much ;-( Have a good weekend. Toni Williams > -----Original Message----- > From: Vicki Birchfield [SMTP:vbirch@ACCESSONE.COM] > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 5:06 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Commonplace books (Was: Blank "index" books, uses > of) > > I love this thread. It reminded me of something I thought I'd seen, > so I just > verified this: > > Sei Shonagon, a court lady in tenth-century Japan. kept a journal > called "Pillow > Book" which primarily consisted of lists of her likes, her dislikes, > and other > tidbits. There's an excerpt from this work in "The Art of the > Personal Essay", > edited by Philip Lopate. Some examples of topics: Embarrassing > Things, > Depressing > Things, Elegant Things. > > "Oxen should have very small foreheads" > > On hateful things: > > "One has been foolish enough to invite a man to spend the night in an > unsuitable > place - and then he starts snoring." > > Anyway, I think I heard that a film had been made based upon her > journals. > Anyone > heard of it? > > Vicki ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:36:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Artificial Neural Networks Thanks to all who replied, but after further consideration and a good night's sleep, I've decided to give this a try myself. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:39:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wong Subject: HELP!! Does anyone know how to unsubscribe to this list?? I've tried sending the SIGNOFF INDEX-L command to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET by putting the command in both the Subject and the Body, just the Subject, and just the Body. Hope someone can help. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:48:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Artificial Neural Networks After reading your exerpts, God help you. You're going to need it! :-) -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Friday, June 05, 1998 12:36 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Artificial Neural Networks > > Thanks to all who replied, but after further consideration and a good > night's sleep, I've decided to give this a try myself. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:42:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: "et al." & "index book" In a message dated 6/5/98 1:29:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cauchi@WAVE.CO.NZ writes: > Actually, "et al." stands for "et alii" (if at least one of the joint > authors is male) or "et aliae" (if all the joint authors are female); "et > alia" would mean "and other things", just as "inter alia" means "among > other things". I believe myself to be a nit-picky, detail-oriented person, but I am thankful we can just write "et al." and not worry about exactly which of the above it is! On the "index/commonplace books": I have kept a journal off and on for several years on an irregular basis. I find the thought process of writing helps me sort out problems, so I put a lot in it when the going gets rough & occasionally a note when something *great* happens. I'm afraid it's pretty glum reading, for the most part! Now, this idea of the "index book" really appeals to my compulsive organizer traits. I wish ya'll would stop talking about them before I start one myself. If I start *organizing* any more things I won't have time to do indexing. ;-) Really, I selected indexing as a 3rd career in order to satisfy my "organizational" tendencies (& get paid for it), as well as some others, such as loving to read and interests in many diverse topics. Ann (anntrue@aol.com) Resisting temptation *so far* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:00:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Indexing author citations Greetings-- I'd like to ask for more thoughts on indexing author citations, in a slightly different vein from last week's thread. To set the scene: the book is a fairly lightweight business book, a sort of textbook for trainers. The authors frequently quote or refer to other authors. There are endnotes (which I haven't yet seen), which is where the bibliographic citations are. There is NO BIBLIOGRAPHY. There is a single index--no separate authors cited index. Given all this, how would you all handle the following situations? 1. The text refers to another author's work, mentioning both author's name and title of work. A corresponding endnote gives a full bibliographic citation but no further discussion. Would you put both the text page and the note page under index entries for the author's name AND the title of the work? 2. Same as 1., except the endnote is not the first reference to the work--it's an ibid or an op. cit. In this case, would you still index the note page? 3. Text mentions author's name, but not the title of the work; corresponding endnote gives author's name and title of work. Would you index the text page under the title, even though it isn't explicitly mentioned there? Would you index the note page under the title, even though the real information about it (the quote or discussion) is actually on the text page? In other words, under what circumstances do you think it is helpful to index endnotes when there is no bibliography? It seems to me that it would be nice to be able to find the full bibliographic reference (publisher, date) via the index. It doesn't seem helpful to find ibids and op. cits. via the index. And what about handling the titles of works mentioned? Is it helpful to be sent from a title entry in the index to a text page on which the title is not explicitly mentioned? Is it helpful to be sent to the associated endnote which gives the title, instead or in addition? Hope the situation is clear. All opinions are welcome! Therese Shere Healdsburg, California ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:27:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: subscribing A friend of mine is trying to subscribe, and I don't have the exact directions to give her. (The FAQ I have has instructions for everything except subscribing!) I gave her Charlotte's email address but her messages are getting bounced so maybe it's changed. I can't find Charlotte in the directory to check. Her name is Paula Durbin-Westby and her email address is dwindex@louisa.net. Could Charlotte or somebody help her? I'm sorry to be so incompetent... Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:34:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan D. Hernandez" Subject: Re: subscribing and signing off The subscribe command is: SUBSCRIBE INDEX-L firstname last name Charlotte's address in the directory is wrong (they left out a letter), it is cskuster@library.lib.binghamton.edu To signoff, the command is SIGNOFF INDEX-L send to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:47:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Osgood Subject: Client encouragement What nice words do YOU-all respond with (on email) when the editor says (after two days of talking in generalities): "Oh my. That's a fair price for the indexing work we want you to do, but on the other hand, it's a lot of money. Since the author is going to pay for this, we will have to ask him if that figure is ok." Martha Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:34:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anna Biunno Subject: Re: A Note on Amphibians and Freelance Indexing I can't speak for the rest of the listserv members, but your editorial is the most inspiring piece of advice I have seen yet. You have well articulated a sentiment that must be passed on to beginners as well as the veterans. Your piece was timely for me. I was minutes away from sending a humble request that more threads on the listserv address the marketing and the business side of indexing. Many times we can dwell on the technical aspects but forget that you can be the most prolific and efficient indexer around but without business stradegies and marketing savy, no one is ever going to know about nor hire you for your professional services. Thank you for a well thought out commentary. You do give a damn. Anna Biunno ABiunno@aol.com Testing the waters, for now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:08:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Printing PDF files Asked my computer expert (my son) who said there's not enough memory. Acrobat expands files. HTH Suellen On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:59:13 -0400 Richard Evans writes: >A client has sent me a sample PDF file that I am trying to print with >Acrobat 3.0. I am printing to a Lexmark laser printer rated at 16 >pages >per minute. Acrobat prints the file at about 2 pages per minute for >about >20 pages then lapses into garbage. > >Any ideas? > >Dick > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 23:31:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Tudor Subject: Book on Names Hi all. A week or two ago, there was a discussion of references for names. I think the book that was recommended was The Book of Names or some such. I saved the file at the time but then had a crash which scrambled a large section of my hard drive. Does anyone remember those titles and authors? Thanks in advance. Beth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 07:22:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: More on et al. Several people have already mentioned the usual meanings of et al.: et alii and et aliae "and others." Additionally, et al. can also stand for et alius "and another" (singular of et alii). It can also mean et alibi "and elsewhere." Maybe someone who knows more Latin than I do can say if et al. could also be something like et alia (singular of et aliae perhaps). My source is Newmark, Maxim. _Dictionary of Foreign Words and Phrases_. 1950. New York: Dorset, 1992. Subtitled "Compiled from English sources and containing foreign words, phrases, mottos, proverbs, place names, title, allusions and abbreviations from the Latin, Greek, French, Italian, Spanish, German, Russian, Hebrew and other foreign languages, together with English equivalents and definitions and a supplement in Greek orthography." The Greek supplement is by Konrad Gries, by the way. I picked up my copy on the remaindered books table at one of the bookstores a few years ago, and I am constantly grateful to have this type of book in my home library. It comes in amazingly handy. [I hope no one who knows lots of Latin tells me its citation was wrong. I really like this book.] I'm sure there are other books out there equally good. It's a useful reference. Karen Lane klane@digital.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 08:11:57 -0600 Reply-To: mcnulty@montana.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne or Moose McNulty Subject: subscribing Do Mi-- There are good directions for subscribing to Index-L on the ASI web page. Click on Resources for Indexers then click Online Discussion Groups. You will then find easy to understand directions for subscription! Joanne M. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:18:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Lightfoot Subject: Re: Indexing front/back cover The journal I index uses the convention IFC and IBC. Sue Lightfoot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:40:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Distinguishing between Roosevelts 6 June 1998 I would distinguish between the Roosevelts who were presidents by their intials, FDR and TR. They are commonly known and referred to by these initials anyway. After their names in the index (used as main subject headings), I would include the initials in parentheses. Examples: Roosevelt, Franklin Delano (FDR): Roosevelt, Theodore (TR): but also: hunting: by TR, 451 illnesses: FDR's, 29; TR's, 12 presidency: FDR's, 14-30; TR's, 2-13 Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:02:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: closet books Nancy Noyes asked, "Anyone else keeping 'closet books'?" My goodness, yes! But I'd always just figured they were 'my' version of everyone else's journals. I started keeping them when I was a bit younger, during my more active travelling days. I have a stack of them, now. My current one has been 'active' for an awfully long time, as I have been lately busy birthing babies and mothering small children (which, as some of you know, is a difficult time to do those time-consuming but ever so intellectually enjoyable tasks such as: stapling in a Jack London poem card; jotting down favorite quotes/thoughts gathered at one of Gandhi's ashrams or after meditating in the caves of Ajanta; a thorough Puerto Rican travel diary; lists of places to go, books to read, other recommendations, etc.). There was a gap in entries for a long time, needless to say. Recent entries have been added while doing more 'esoteric' and 'indexerly' things like while taking a break from entering an index during a quiet conference morning, having been too enamored of the view from the brig of the barge I was staying in but to sit down and compose a love poem.... I should add that I use these books to include quotes or whatever that I have no other use for. I have a special place for quotes, etc. that pertain to indexing. Anyway, I'd always thought I'd trash these 'pillow books' some day. But all these comradely postings are making me 2nd guess that notion?! I should also add that I've not used any 'special' lined books for these journals. A quick glance at the stack shows quite a medley of journals, in fact: various sizes, most spiral-bound, some red, some grey, some natural brown, one with a Camel motorcyclist on the front, some European graphic lined; yes, we have ALL kinds, I suppose. ;-) what an enjoyable coversation. Thanks, everyone. back to work, Pilar ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ L. Pilar Wyman * Wyman Indexing * PilarW@aol.com * http://members.aol.com/pilarw/web Great Indexes for Great Books ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:27:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing author citations Therese wrote (about a business book with no bibliography, shame on the editor): << 1. The text refers to another author's work, mentioning both author's name and title of work. A corresponding endnote gives a full bibliographic citation but no further discussion. Would you put both the text page and the note page under index entries for the author's name AND the title of the work?>> No. Unless forced to do so by the publisher, I never index mere citations in foot- or endnotes. I only index them if there is substantive material in them; if in the course of the substantive material an author is quoted, I index the author, but not if it's just a citation. In the text, I index author and title if both are mentioned. <<2. Same as 1., except the endnote is not the first reference to the work--it's an ibid or an op. cit. In this case, would you still index the note page?>> No. See above. <<3. Text mentions author's name, but not the title of the work; corresponding endnote gives author's name and title of work. Would you index the text page under the title, even though it isn't explicitly mentioned there? Would you index the note page under the title, even though the real information about it (the quote or discussion) is actually on the text page?>> In this case, I wouldn't index the title at all. See above again. :-) The drag in a book without bibliography is when an author is cited by last name only in the text, and you have to find the first note where that citation is mentioned (sometimes many pages back in the book) in order to get initials or first name for the author. If I'm being required to index last-name-only citations in a case like this, I explain the difficulty to the editor and charge extra. Good luck! Do Mi In other words, under what circumstances do you think it is helpful to index endnotes when there is no bibliography? It seems to me that it would be nice to be able to find the full bibliographic reference (publisher, date) via the index. It doesn't seem helpful to find ibids and op. cits. via the index. And what about handling the titles of works mentioned? Is it helpful to be sent from a title entry in the index to a text page on which the title is not explicitly mentioned? Is it helpful to be sent to the associated endnote which gives the title, instead or in addition? Hope the situation is clear. All opinions are welcome! Therese Shere Healdsburg, California ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from relay29.mx.aol.com (relay29.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.29]) by air19.mail.aol.com (v43.25) with SMTP; Fri, 05 Jun 1998 15:02:16 -0400 Received: from VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (vms.dc.lsoft.com [206.241.13.27]) by relay29.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id PAA18022; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806051901.PAA18022@relay29.mx.aol.com> Received: from PEAR.EASE.LSOFT.COM (206.241.12.19) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1b) w >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:15:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Client encouragement In-Reply-To: <199806060413.XAA03046@mixcom.mixcom.com> > "Oh my. That's a fair price for the indexing work we want you to >do, but on the other hand, it's a lot of money. Since the author is going >to pay for this, we will have to ask him if that figure is ok." > I would probably just say, "Please let me know as soon as possible, so I can get this project firmly on the calendar." For me, this wouldn't be so much a case of needing to encouraging a client as letting them know that this is my price and that I don't consider the agreement firm until the author has OKed the price. But to be honest, I don't think editors should be deciding *for* authors what is or isn't a lot of money; that's strictly the author's business. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:22:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judith Gibbs Subject: Index on the 'Net I have been following with some interest the discussion of the index on the 'Net. Why not put the book on the 'Net and publish the index in hard copy? Then anyone who finds an index entry of interest can find the relevant page(s) on line. Judi Gibbs The Write Guru ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 18:24:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rick Hurd Subject: virus Dear friends, Please read the following If you receive an e-mail titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it, it will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft, please share it with everyone that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your address book so that this may be stopped. Also, do not open or even look at any mail that says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER" . This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your on-line friends. Kimberly J. Griggs Accounting Manager Gateway Systems Corporation 4660 S. Hagadorn, Suite 110 East Lansing, MI 48823-5353 (517) 337-8960 This message has been forwarded by Rick Hurd at Rick' Indexing. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:36:08 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: virus (hoax) Rick Hurd wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Please read the following > > If you receive an e-mail titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it, it will > erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as many > people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many > people know about it. > > This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft, please > share it with everyone that might access the Internet. (snip) This is another hoax--here's what Symantec has to say about it: Description: Win a Holiday is not a virus. It is a hoax. The "virus" does not exist. There is currently no virus that has the characteristics ascribed to "Win a Holiday." It is a sham, meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer users. In addition, it is a mild variant of the "Join the Crew" hoax (form 4). The hoax message includes the following "warning:" VIRUS WARNING !!!!!! If you receive an email titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it. It will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft; please share it with everyone that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in our address book so that this may be stopped. Also, do not open or even look at any mail that says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER" This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your online friends ASAP. Please ignore any messages regarding this supposed "virus" and do not pass on any messages regarding it. Passing on messages about this hoax serves only to further propagate it. Please, people, do NOT forward messages about viruses before verifying whether they are real or a hoax. You can check at: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html Laura ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:38:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: virus NNNNNOOOOOOO!!!!! At 06:24 PM 6/6/98 EDT, you wrote: >Dear friends, > >Please read the following > >If you receive an e-mail titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it, it will >erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as many >people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many >people know about it. This is another virus hoax. DO NOT propagate this warning. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:07:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Wilkerson Subject: CFP Announcement The Consortium of Freelancers and Publishers (CFP) announces the opening of its new web site at: http://members.aol.com/consortims Web site features: 1. Online directories (lists freelancers and advertisers) 2. Chat Room (weekly chats and special guest hosts) 3. General Bulletin Board 4. Jobs Available Bulletin Board 5. The Marketplace (group marketing projects targeting publishers) 6. Resource Center Page Stop by CFP's web site for more information. Susan Wilkerson consortims@aol.com http://members.aol.com/consortims ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:43:34 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Classification schemes on Internet - thanks, and a Dutch one Hi, Thanks for all the very useful responses about the use of formal classification schemes on the Internet. In my web wanderings, I found the Leiden Centre for the Book (following a recommendation on Index-L) and discovered also a site organised according to a basic Dutch classification scheme. Glenda. =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:43:37 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Indexes to individual books (or other documents) on the Web Hi, Another Web indexing question. Do any of you know of any books with indexes on the Web (i.e. the Web is the main place of publication for both book and index)? What about any electronic periodicals with indexes on the Web (I have seen the ASI web site information)? Thanks in advance, Glenda =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.users.bigpond.com/Diagonal Diagonal@bigpond.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 10:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: One more about journals... I watched the movie "Stealing Beauty" last night, and much of the plot centers around a young woman using her mother's commonplace book/diary to find clues about her father's identity. Since her mother had been dead for a while, this was the only link that she had. So hang onto those journals...you never know how important they might be someday! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 14:54:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Alaskan indexers? Hello, all. Are there any indexers out there living and working in Alaska? I have a friend here in North Carolina who is interested in indexing, and plans to move back to Alaska eventually. Thought I'd try to put him in touch with someone who is actually *doing* what he might want to do. Thanks. Ann Norcross Crosover Information Services P.S. The Indexer Services directory from ASI lists an Alaskan indexer, but I believe it is an error, as I don't think there is a Tuscaloosa, Alaska, and I also believe that AL is *not* the abbreviaiton for Alaska. Oops. :-)