From LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu Thu Dec 24 18:08:18 1998 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:45:22 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB To: Ilana Kingsley Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9810C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:31:55 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Correction: How to index with Word I just realized I had made this harder than necessary, too! Here's a much simpler version: 1. Work your way through the document, embedding index entries right next to the words and phrases you want them to point to. 2. Compile the index. 3. For any index entry you want to change, go to the corresponding page numbers, and make your changes. 4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as needed, until you're happy with the finished index. 5. Turn off hidden text, hide field codes, and compile the index. In other words, there's no reason to fiddle with hidden text and field codes until you finish the index. Sorry about the confusion. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 20:38:23 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: et alia (again) >Et al. is synomyous with et alia in Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary >(10th), the Blue book system of legal citation, I have been included on >numerous et alia (et al.) legal lists as a defendant for civil >disobedience. Likely, it's a UK-USA thing. I don't think it's a UK-USA thing, I think it's a matter of knowing what the Latin words mean. Are you sure you have interpreted Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary and the Blue Book correctly? (I haven't seen them, but will look up the Blue Book the next time I visit our local law library.) On the legal lists you refer to, was the phrase spelt out in full as "et alia" or abbreviated as "et al."? If the former, whoever was responsible for drawing up the lists was in error. If the latter, the abbreviation should be interpreted according to the entry in Bryan A. Garner's A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage (New York, Oxford University Press, 1990): "*et al.* is the abbreviated form of the Latin phrase _et alii_ (= and others). " This dictionary is an American publication, with a foreword by a judge of the "United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit" (whatever that is). I remember reading in a post to Copyediting-l some time ago that Garner lives in Dallas, Texas. Simon Cauchi Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile (+64) 7-854-9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:48:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Call for Papers Reminder This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDF807.D16EC900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The deadline for the receipt of papers for the 1999 ASI Annual Meeting = in Indianapolis, June 9-13 is November 2. If you need details, please = check the ASI website at http://www.ASIndexing.org. Sandi Schroeder ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDF807.D16EC900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The deadline for the receipt of = papers for the=20 1999 ASI Annual Meeting in Indianapolis, June 9-13 is November 2. If you = need=20 details, please check the ASI website at http://www.ASIndexing.org.<= /DIV>
 
Sandi = Schroeder
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BDF807.D16EC900-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:21:14 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Internet Messaging: a book about e-mail In view of the difficulties with e-mail that are often discussed in this group, indexers may be interested in the excellent book "Internet Messaging: From the Desktop to the Enterprise" by Marshall Rose and David Strom. I won't go into detail here but I've written a review for my Internet Beginners' Mailing List: by the time you read this it should be in the archives at http://IBG.listbot.com. Jonathan ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:04:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Gail P. Clement" Subject: Dublin Core Implementation Survey: Call for Participation Dublin Core Implementation Survey: Call for Participation (Please excuse duplication through cross-posting) The Dublin Core Technical Advisory Committee invites you to participate in a survey of Dublin Core implementors. This survey is being conducted to identify the diversity of projects implementing Dublin Core, and to determine what resources are used to create Dublin Core metadata and what assistance would be helpful in improving the process. We are actively seeking input from all projects implementing Dublin Core, at any scale, and from all domains -- libraries, museums, government agencies, business enterprises, research organizations, academe, schools, and more. The survey form is available at: http://www.cimi.org/documents/DC6_imp_survey_form.html Selected respondents may be invited to present a case study of their project at the Dublin Core meeting in Washington D.C., November 1-3. The results of this survey will be tabulated and reported both at the upcoming Dublin Core 6 meeting and in a report available through the Dublin Core Home page. Thank you in advance for your participation in the DC Implementation survey. Please feel to direct any questions or comments about this effort to Technical Advisory Committee members John Perkins (jperkins@fox.nstn.ca) or Gail Clement (clementg@fiu.edu). For general information about Dublin Core, visit the DC website at http://purl.oclc.org/metadata/dublin_core/. Gail P. Clement Coordinator for Digital Library Services and Project Director, Everglades Information Network & Digital Library Florida International University Libraries, Miami, Florida 33199 E-mail: clementg@fiu.edu | Phone: 305/348-3417 | FAX: 305/348-3408 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:05:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Subject: Re: How to Index with Word I agree with David. I've been reading this thread for a few days now wondering if I should jump into the fray. The subject of embedded indexing comes periodically, and I never know if I should get involved. I learned to index through embedded codes in PageMaker. Now I work primarly by embedding codes in Word documents. I also work using Cindex. Because I work with both methods I can see why if you learned to do traditional indexes, embedding may seem foreign. Those who only know traditional indexing get used to seeing the index form before their eyes and can edit and shape the index as they work. If something comes up 6 chapters later, they can refer to previous entries and see how they stated something the first time. You don't have this luxury with embedded indexing and therefore have to learn to keep all this information in your head while working. I think this is why some people create the index first, then enter embedded codes into the manuscript. If you can get over the fact that you are essentially doing the same task by embedding indexing entries rather than creating the final index, it won't such a daunting task. In embedding, I do as David says: as I read the text, I embed codes using hidden text. If I want to represent a page range in my finished index, I copy the codes throughout the section I'm referencing. Because Word doesn't work well for book-length publications I work chapter by chapter and the publisher I work for flows these chapters into PageMaker. The index is compiled using PageMaker and that is sent to me for editing. That is when I get the entries final and clean, not in the hidden text codes in the manuscript. I never go back to those entries once I've finished the book. If I'm in the chapter and decide to change something, yes, I go back and do it; if I'm 5 chapters down the road, no, I wait until the finished, compiled index shows up and I fix things there. Often I make notes to myself to change certain things in the finished index. Having started out embedding, then learned traditional, I can see the similarities clearly and have no problem jumping from one to the other. Imagine using Cindex and going along reading the text, creating entries and never viewing in Full Format to see how things are coming, only using Draft format. That's similar to embedded indexing. Someone is bound to note that I didn't mention marking up my text. I don't. Because I learned using embedding, I don't mark things before hand, I make entries as I go. If something comes up in chapter 8 that was also in chapter 1, I'll remember how I formed the entry. When I make one entry I scan to see how long this discussion goes and insert the appropriate page numbers. Johnna VanHoose Indexing, Editing, Proofreading johnnav@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: David M. Brown To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Wednesday, October 14, 1998 10:20 PM Subject: Re: How to Index with Word >> How to Index with Word > >Only if you have a *lot* of spare time and really *love* duplication of >effort. > >> 1. Mark up your paper copy. >> 2. Create a master set of index entries: nouns, > ... >> 8. Copy the index entries onto the correct pages in the >> Word file: best to copy them at the start of each page, >> or at a regular place on each page or under each >> heading. > >May I propose an alternative? > >1. Turn on hidden text and show field codes. >2. Work your way through the document, embedding index entries > right next to the words and phrases you want them to point to. >3. Turn off hidden text, hide field codes, and compile the index. >4. For any index entry you want to change, go to the corresponding > page numbers. >5. Turn on hidden text, show field codes, and make your changes. >6. Repeat steps 3 through 5 as needed, until you're happy with the > finished index. For those who hate indexing in Word, just keep > going til you run out of time or patience. ;) > >At least with this method, when the index is finished, *you* are >finished. I can't imagine anything more demoralizing than getting the >index just the way I want it and *then* having to go back to copy and >paste hundreds of entries into the body of the document. > >And there's no sense *at all* in putting the entries *anywhere* besides >right next to the things you want them to point to. Otherwise you have >to start over from scratch whenever any little thing changes. > >--David > > ============================== > David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > http://www.brown-inc.com/ > ============================== > See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to > create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:36:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: et alia (again) I also have a copy of Merriam Websters Collegiate Dictionary (10th) and she did not misread it: It even has "et alia" as a separate entry, but et alii or et alius (the singular) do not appear anywhere. Black's Law Dictionary, which really is the standard here in the US (much as I hate to admit it, since it's published by the competition!), has et al. as an abbreviation for et alii (plural) or et alius (singular). If I remember my high school Latin (and I don't, usually!), the question is whether the noun "alius/alia/alium" is masculine, feminine or neuter. I think that many (including Websters) have defaulted to the neuter form (et alia or et alium, singular) to cover the widest range of situations, but traditionally the masculine form was used. Frankly, I don't see that it makes much difference since the abbreviation is the same for all three, so my advice is to always abbreviate it. :-) Incidentally, Simon, the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit is one level below the US Supreme Court. There are 13 Circuit Courts of Appeals (eleven numeric ones plus a Federal one and one for the District of Columbia), divided roughly geographically, who's primary purpose is to hear appeals from the federal district courts. The Fifth Circuit encompasses Texas, Mississippi and Lousiana, plus the District of the Canal Zone (Panama, from back when we still had authority there). -- Sharon W. > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon Cauchi [SMTP:cauchi@WAVE.CO.NZ] > > >Et al. is synomyous with et alia in Merriam Websters Collegiate > Dictionary > >(10th), the Blue book system of legal citation, I have been included on > >numerous et alia (et al.) legal lists as a defendant for civil > >disobedience. Likely, it's a UK-USA thing. > > I don't think it's a UK-USA thing, I think it's a matter of knowing what > the Latin words mean. Are you sure you have interpreted Merriam Websters > Collegiate Dictionary and the Blue Book correctly? (I haven't seen them, > but will look up the Blue Book the next time I visit our local law > library.) On the legal lists you refer to, was the phrase spelt out in > full > as "et alia" or abbreviated as "et al."? If the former, whoever was > responsible for drawing up the lists was in error. If the latter, the > abbreviation should be interpreted according to the entry in Bryan A. > Garner's A Dictionary of Modern Legal Usage (New York, Oxford University > Press, 1990): > > "*et al.* is the abbreviated form of the Latin phrase _et alii_ (= and > others). " > > This dictionary is an American publication, with a foreword by a judge of > the "United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit" (whatever that > is). I remember reading in a post to Copyediting-l some time ago that > Garner lives in Dallas, Texas. > > Simon Cauchi > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:14:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810151310.JAA23463@camel9.mindspring.com> At 08:05 AM 10/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >Because Word doesn't >work well for book-length publications I work chapter by chapter and the >publisher I work for flows these chapters into PageMaker. The index is >compiled using PageMaker and that is sent to me for editing. That is when I >get the entries final and clean, not in the hidden text codes in the >manuscript. Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded index because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. So why embed? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:05:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: How to Index with Word > 8. Copy the index entries onto the correct pages in the > Word file: best to copy them at the start of each page, > or at a regular place on each page or under each > heading. If you choose to embed your tags at the end of the process (I work directly in Word, so I embed as I go), I'd recommend pasting them right next to the text they point to. Many publishers who ask for embedded indexes do so because that text will be updated or revised frequently. If text is inserted or deleted during the revision process, the pages will reflow and the embedded codes will no longer be accurate. Nothing is more frustrating than to "inherit" a revision project and discover that the embedded codes are all one or two pages away from their references! Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:17:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: ASI members and the Indexer I just read the latest posting from Lori on the ASI Web site regarding the Indexer. For those of you who are interested, here's a little background: At the May conference, the ASI board voted to not have the Indexer as a member benefit. At that point, the board discussed whether it would be feasible to offer it as an option but nothing was decided in that direction, only that it would no longer be a benefit. That caused some uproar, some of which appeared here on index-l. So the board decided to survey members on what their preferences were in regard to receiving the Indexer. That survey and the many handwritten comments received (which was posted on the Web site--I hope it's still there) indicated that the majority of members who responded (almost half of the total membership) wished to receive it as an add-on option. A more recent board decision was to include the Oct. 98 issue of the Indexer (that is, it amended the May decision on when to terminate the Indexer subscription for members). Now Lori is suggesting that all ASI members should receive the Indexer as a benefit after all. I do not wish to debate here the underlying issue of Indexer as benefit or not. What concerns me in this situation is that the current president is ignoring previous board decisions AND clearly stated ASI members' preferences. Margie Towery Towery Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word Dick Evans asks: Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded index because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. So why embed? And I reply: Because it's still much faster to recompile and re-edit an index (approximately 8 hours for a typical book here) than it is to completely re-index the book (days or weeks). If I had to completely re-index a book every time a new edition of it came out, I'd never be able to get all my books done on time. And once you get used to embedded indexing, you learn how to make your codes as clean and consistent as possible so the edits will go quicker. Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:27:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word << Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded index because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. So why embed? >> Most publishers who work with embedded indexes understand this and allow time for the edit process. If a book is revised and reprinted, the publisher will schedule a day or two so that the index can be recompiled and edited. It's still more efficient for the publisher to schedule a couple of days for editing than to schedule 3-4 weeks for the book to be indexed from scratch. (This is especially true if the revision is one of those monster 1400-page computer books!) And most of the time, the indexer handling the compile/edit will also have a copy of the previous edition (with the original index) to check against. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:08:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Internet Messaging: a book about e-mail Jeremy I tried that and it said the list was unknown. Suellen On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:21:14 +1000 Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne writes: >In view of the difficulties with e-mail that are often discussed in >this >group, indexers may be interested in the excellent book "Internet >Messaging: >>From the Desktop to the Enterprise" by Marshall Rose and David Strom. >I >won't go into detail here but I've written a review for my Internet >Beginners' Mailing List: by the time you read this it should be in the >archives at http://IBG.listbot.com. > >Jonathan >------------------------------ >Jonathan Jermey >Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers >http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:11:02 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810151409.KAA08738@camel26.mindspring.com> I agree with Dick. If I left my embedded entries unedited, my clients would be really upset. That's because they want to reuse these files, and have them translated. The indexing codes have to be as final as they can, so that they can hand off completely-ready-to-go files. I guess when talking about embedded projects, one should always check to make sure what the client really wants. Jan Wright At 10:14 AM 10/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 08:05 AM 10/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >>Because Word doesn't >>work well for book-length publications I work chapter by chapter and the >>publisher I work for flows these chapters into PageMaker. The index is >>compiled using PageMaker and that is sent to me for editing. That is when I >>get the entries final and clean, not in the hidden text codes in the >>manuscript. > >Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index >without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded index >because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. So why embed? > >Dick > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Confused by the return e-mail address? Doesn't matter whether you use Jancw@wrightinformation.com OR Jancw@mindspring.com - they will wind up in the same place, as will the URLs below: http://www.wrightinformation.com OR http://www.mindspring.com/~jancw +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:59:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810151441.KAA30868@camel16.mindspring.com> At 09:27 AM 10/15/98 -0700, you wrote: > Most publishers who work with embedded indexes understand this and allow > time for the edit process. If a book is revised and reprinted, the > publisher will schedule a day or two so that the index can be recompiled > and edited. It's still more efficient for the publisher to schedule a > couple of days for editing than to schedule 3-4 weeks for the book to be > indexed from scratch. (This is especially true if the revision is one of > those monster 1400-page computer books!) And most of the time, the indexer > handling the compile/edit will also have a copy of the previous edition > (with the original index) to check against. I think that's a critical difference between the way an in-house indexer works and the way a freelancer works. As a freelancer, I don't have the option of doing subsequent editions, and so have to have all the tags cleaned up on the first pass. In fact, I have proposed to clients who want embedded indexes that it would be more feasible for me to do their work if there was some sort of continuity, but so far none of them have been willing to make such an arrangement. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:26:09 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Richard Evans wrote: > > > Because Word doesn't > > work well for book-length publications I work chapter by chapter and > > the publisher I work for flows these chapters into PageMaker. The > > index is compiled using PageMaker and that is sent to me for > > editing. That is when I get the entries final and clean, not in the > > hidden text codes in the manuscript. > > Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index > without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded > index because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. > So why embed? For all the advantages that Ms. VanHoose and I have mentioned in this message thread. But I would never edit the finished index, for the reason Mr. Evans mentioned. As for Word's capabilities--I don't about its latest incarnation, but previous versions have never given me trouble with creating index entries. For example, there are specific codes for creating ranges--no need to embed an entry on every page in the range. And, every time I've found some index result that I thought Word couldn't create, I've been wrong--it was simply a matter of learning to use the tool. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:52:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810151627.MAA18544@camel16.mindspring.com> At 09:26 AM 10/15/98 -0700, you wrote: > >For all the advantages that Ms. VanHoose and I have mentioned in this >message thread. But I would never edit the finished index, for the >reason Mr. Evans mentioned. Never? Really? The last embedding project I worked on the book was broken up among six indexers, none of whom had any interaction with the others. The client insisted they needed the embedded tags for subsequent editions. If each indexer did their respective portion and edited only the compiled index, all the editing changes would disappear when the client compiled the consolidated index. > >As for Word's capabilities--I don't about its latest incarnation, but >previous versions have never given me trouble with creating index >entries. For example, there are specific codes for creating ranges--no >need to embed an entry on every page in the range. Other than using a bookmark, what is the code for a range? (I use Word 7.) Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:46:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word > Therein lies the rub. At the point where you edit the compiled index > without editing the tags you effectively no longer have an embedded > index because the next time you recompile all your edits are gone. > So why embed? A second advantage (which I think Seth mentioned earlier), is that embedding saves the publisher a lot of time, effort, and money in other areas of the publishing process. Since the indexer can work before the page proofs are finalized, the publisher doesn't have to build in an additional 3-4 weeks at the end of the process. So embedding can mean tremendous savings to the publisher, even for books that won't necesarily be revised later. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:57:58 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Thank you, Johnna, for your enlightening post about the process of embedded indexing. What struck me--strongly--was how similar the process you use is to the index-card method we used before computers. I had a stack of cards, and made one entry on each card: heading, subheading, page number. I stacked the cards upside down as I finished them, and put batches into the file box, but I didn't sort as I went along, and I never went back and checked or changed a card unless it was in the most recent batch. Sometimes I made notes on cards to check something later. When all the cards were written, I sorted them. (This was the fun part--laying out the cards in stacks of A,B,C, etc., wrapping each stack in a rubber band, and then sorting each stack into headings and subheadings, wrapping each heading with its subheadings in a separate rubber band. It was a tactile exercise, with a finished index taking form before me, and it was pleasing.) The final stage was typing the finished index, which probably took as long as it now takes to go back and edit the embedded codes. When I started indexing with Macrex, I tripled (at least) my output. Since it takes about three times as long to do an embedded index as to do a standalone one, the analogy is a pretty good one. The processes are similar, but at either end of the technological spectrum! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:51:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word << As for Word's capabilities--I don't about its latest incarnation, but previous versions have never given me trouble with creating index entries. For example, there are specific codes for creating ranges--no need to embed an entry on every page in the range. And, every time I've found some index result that I thought Word couldn't create, I've been wrong--it was simply a matter of learning to use the tool. >> Just a caution: If you accept a job involving embedded Word entries, you'll want to double-check with your client to see if the book will actually be published from the Word files, or if the Word files will be flowed into a dedicated page-layout program. Many Word indexing features (page ranges, for example) don't transfer into page-layout software. That's when work-arounds (like embedding entries throughout the page range) become critical. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:48:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Aldrich Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Could you please send the file you mentioned in your post. I haven't tried to index in Word, but I have computer information copyediting experience and database indexing skills so I may try to do some manual work in the future. It will be handy to have. Thanks a lot. nancya ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Guenther Subject: time requirements for indexing (Was: How to Index with Word) In-Reply-To: <199810151652.MAA12385@carriage.chesco.com> > A second advantage (which I think Seth mentioned earlier), is > that embedding saves the publisher a lot of time, effort, and > money in other areas of the publishing process. Since the > indexer can work before the page proofs are finalized, the > publisher doesn't have to build in an additional 3-4 weeks at > the end of the process. So embedding can mean tremendous > savings to the publisher, even for books that won't necesarily > be revised later. I've been following this thread & had not intention of responding, but this is the 2nd time 3-4 weeks has been mentioned as a requirement for indexing. I'd love the luxury of that much time !! Most of my publishers want the index no later than 1 week after I receive the last of the pages. That last batch can be anything from a final appendix of 20 pp. to 90% of a 1000 p. text. I know the editors quickly process my index when they receive it since I often have a copy of the final book in approx 3 weeks. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:58:25 -0700 Reply-To: Elinor Lindheimer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: ASI members and the Indexer To Margie and all interested: I assume that negotiations in England at the recent SI conference went well, and that the price of keeping The Indexer as a member benefit will be good enough to justify not having it as an add-on. The decision to drop it was purely monetary, without regard to the history and the written agreements between the Society of Indexers and ASI. At the time, a very small percentage of ASI members had returned their surveys regarding this issue. Those who answered a survey saying they wanted The Indexer as an add-on rather than a member benefit were undoubtedly either responding to the cost issues or relatively new members who hadn't had a chance to plumb the depths of this extraordinary journal. It took me years to not feel intimidated by it, but I always appreciated getting it. If you want to FEEL like a professional, reading The Indexer will help immensely. That's why I have always felt grateful that it was a member benefit that all received. Now that about half the ASI members have returned their surveys, it seems that a majority of those voted to have The Indexer as an add-on benefit. That means a little more than one-quarter of the ASI membership. The rest either say keep it as a member benefit or have no opinion, evidently. Let's keep this in perspective. Secondly, if a board makes a decision, there is no law that says it cannot change that decision. Board members are human, and they can make mistakes or make decisions with too much haste. Thirdly, it is the role of a board of directors to lead, taking into account the needs and wishes of the membership, but also paying attention to other issues--in this case, intersociety cooperation, professional status, communication, education. Leadership is not responding to opinion polls alone. The report from Tynemouth is heartening, positive news! Elinor Lindheimer elinorl@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:53:40 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Richard Evans wrote: > > > ... I would never edit the finished index, for the > > reason Mr. Evans mentioned. > > Never? Really? The last embedding project I worked on the book was > broken up among six indexers, none of whom had any interaction with > the others. The client insisted they needed the embedded tags for > subsequent editions. If each indexer did their respective portion and > edited only the compiled index, all the editing changes would > disappear when the client compiled the consolidated index. Mr. Evans questions my statement, then reinforces my point! The proper use of embedding is to make all changes in the embedded entries, *not* in the compiled index. In a project like the one Mr. Evans mentions, the person who compiles the combined index should contact the affected indexers and have them modify their embedded entries as needed to effect any changes. Only in this way can the index be reproduced automatically. > > ... there are specific codes for creating ranges-- > > no need to embed an entry on every page in the range. > > Other than using a bookmark, what is the code for a range? I recommend checking the help file. That's where I got most of my information about Word's indexing feature, back in version 2.0. --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:09:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: How to Index with Word I think Dick is right about the need for bookmarks in order to index page ranges. You must assign a bookmark to a chunk of text and then reference the bookmark name in the index tag. John Sullivan Clip from Dick's comments: > > > > Other than using a bookmark, what is the code for a range? > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:24:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How to Index with Word At 09:26 AM 10/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >For all the advantages that Ms. VanHoose and I have mentioned in this >message thread. But I would never edit the finished index, for the >reason Mr. Evans mentioned. Upon rereading this, I see David was really agreeing with me. (What a difference a comma makes.) Would anyone like to set up something (perhaps informally) at the next conference, where we could get together and compare notes on comparison/contrast between specific programs like Cindex and Word? This discussion would be so much easier if each of us could see first hand what the other is talking about. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:19:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: time requirements for indexing In-Reply-To: Nancy Guenther "time requirements for indexing (Was: How to Index with Word)" (Oct 15, 1:47pm) Nancy Guenther wrote: > I've been following this thread & had not intention of responding, but this > is the 2nd time 3-4 weeks has been mentioned as a requirement for indexing. > I'd love the luxury of that much time !! Most of my publishers want the > index no later than 1 week after I receive the last of the pages. That last > batch can be anything from a final appendix of 20 pp. to 90% of a 1000 p. > text. With embedding indexing, there are all sort of other problems with timing when the index is freelanced. (This is one of the topics I cover when I present embedded indexing in workshops.) With embedded indexing, the indexer requires the actual physical files in which to write the index data. As long as the indexer is hanging onto those files and making edits, production stops. (When an indexer is working with hard copy, the publisher is free to make small changes that don't affect pagination.) I work with a publisher who works with Microsoft Word, and they ask me to write the index data into the Word files. The indexing process is scheduled to take place in between the writing/editing stage and the final design layout stage. Between the two, I am given only a very short time -- sometimes only overnight -- to write the index for a particular chapter or bunch of chapters. When I'm finished, I send in my work and they send me new chapters. Working in batches is the only way this publisher can function and still maintain their schedules. From my point of view, however, I am required to send email messages filled with corrections for the work I've accomplished along the way, which they then implement. For example, suppose on Monday I am given Chapters 1, 2, and 3 to index. On Thursday I send them in, indexed, and receive Chapters 4, 5, 6. One day later, as I start to index Chapter 5, I realize that I need to change my mind and fix the index data for Chapter 3. Unfortunately, I will never have that chapter in my hands again. So instead I send my client an email message, itemizing what in Chapter 3 needs to be edited. Then I make my own notation for Chapter 3, and continue. It's a tedious process, I think, but I trust them to make my edits. The point is: freelancing an embedded indexing project has a lot of additional logistical problems. Timing, as described above, is just one of them. The moral is: these logistical issues are an incentive for publishers to write their own indexes, or to work with in-house indexers. As freelancers, it's important that we develop comfortable solutions so that our services don't become more difficult that the problems. What those solutions are depend on the indexer, the tools, and the client. In the example above, I am willing to schedule time to work overnight and write my corrections explicitly on a piece of paper; in exchange we work with an hourly rate instead of a per- page rate to accommodate that extra time. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02472-2826 <--new zip (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 818-1885 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth ICQ# 16652316 co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org webmaster, STC Indexing SIG: http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Jackson Subject: Re[2]: How to Index with Word There's supposed to be a presentation at the Indianapolis conference about embedded indexing, given by Macmillan Publishing, that might help answer some of your questions. I don't know exactly what the content or format of the presentation will be since I'm not the person giving it, but I imagine that it will be quite useful in clearing up ambiguities about how embedded indexing works. Cheryl Jackson Macmillan Publishing ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Author: Richard Evans at internet Date: 10/15/98 2:24 PM At 09:26 AM 10/15/98 -0700, you wrote: >For all the advantages that Ms. VanHoose and I have mentioned in this >message thread. But I would never edit the finished index, for the >reason Mr. Evans mentioned. Upon rereading this, I see David was really agreeing with me. (What a difference a comma makes.) Would anyone like to set up something (perhaps informally) at the next conference, where we could get together and compare notes on comparison/contrast between specific programs like Cindex and Word? This discussion would be so much easier if each of us could see first hand what the other is talking about. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:29:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: time requirements for indexing << I've been following this thread & had not intention of responding, but this is the 2nd time 3-4 weeks has been mentioned as a requirement for indexing. I'd love the luxury of that much time !! Most of my publishers want the index no later than 1 week after I receive the last of the pages. That last batch can be anything from a final appendix of 20 pp. to 90% of a 1000 p. text. >> Ah, okay. I don't work with final page proofs, so I wasn't sure how much time you're usually given. I guess it's reassuring to know that you're as rushed as the rest of us. :) The difference with embedded indexing is that the book can ship to the printer almost immediately after the page breaks are set. For example, the last book I indexed was a 1400-page book on Java programming, and it reached the printing press only a day or two after the book was paginated. Erika Millen Indianapolis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:12:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "William G. Meisheid" Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Just a note of reference. We are working on a Word embedded indexing product that we hope will facilitate the indexing process. It should be ready sometime early in the first quarter 1999. ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:24:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810151915.PAA07151@camel10.mindspring.com> At 03:12 PM 10/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >Just a note of reference. We are working on a Word embedded indexing product >that we hope will facilitate the indexing process. It should be ready sometime >early in the first quarter 1999. I'm sure you'd find lots of potential Beta testers here. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: ASI members and the Indexer In-Reply-To: <199810151419.HAA14721@pacific.net> I don't regard opinion surveys that are not scientifically conducted as having enough weight to be the only consideration in a major decision. At bottom, the opinion survey showed that a large majority of members want to receive The Indexer. I personally feel that ASI members *should* receive The Indexer whether they want it or not. In other words, if we're going to shoot around words like "professional" and "scholarly" and "continuing education," to let go of a major organ like The Indexer strikes me as odd. So I for one am very glad that the Board could see its way clear to a reconsideration of this decision. One of the signs of maturity is being able to admit when a mistake has been made. I salute the Lori and the board: Thank you very much. Sincerely, Victoria Margie wrote: >What concerns me in this situation is that the current president is ignoring >previous board decisions AND clearly stated ASI members' preferences. vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:52:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ASI members and the Indexer Thank you, Victoria! You took the words right out of my mouth. The "survey' that was done was not meant for statistical analysis. It was not really a survey, but more of an interest poll, and one cannot assign statistical weight to the "results". All that can be concluded from the results is the degree of interest in The Indexer and no more. There is no shame in the ASI Board's reconsideration of a decision. More facts have come to light that need to be brought to bear on the final decision on what form a subscription for ASI members will take. It is to the Board's credit that they have continued to investigate and work with the publisher, the [British] Society of Indexers, to find a way to continue to bring this important journal to ASI members. If ASI members don't understand why something is being done, they should ask a Board member and not jump to [erroneous] conclusions. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:13:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: ASI and Indexer More clarification: I was present at the May board meeting (and at the March long-range planning meeting). The decision to eliminate the Indexer as a benefit was not "purely monetary." It was part of a much larger discussion about many issues, including what the board was hearing that members felt was most important to them. It was also part of the ongoing long-range planning discussions. In addition, the decision was not made in haste. The Indexer as a benefit and its problems had been discussed at various board meetings over several years. Yes, I agree with Elinor, the board is elected to serve as ASI leaders. And certainly, there are occasions when past decisions must be revisited. But it does a grave disservice to chuck out past decisions without really considering the issues or examining their context. It does an even graver disservice to ASI members, when they have been specifically polled about an issue--and given a clear indication of their preferences (I have no sympathy for those who do/did not respond)--and then the board (or president) ignores those preferences. I am not suggesting that ASI be ruled by surveys of members. I am arguing that when ask, those members who do respond have a right to see that their responses are taken seriously. Margie Towery Towery Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:45:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: ASI and Indexer In-Reply-To: <199810152021.NAA24270@pacific.net> Margie wrote: >I am >arguing that when ask, those members who do respond have a right to see that >their responses are taken seriously. As I recall, the way the situation was presented was that dues for ASI would have to rise 25 to 40 dollars/year in order to continue to provide The Indexer as part of the membership package. I have no doubt that this influenced a number of people's responses to the survey. The new decision takes into account that those numbers were completely inaccurate. In fact, this new decision (or direction) does respect the responses from the membership -- The Indexer is available. How it is available is a matter of practical concern, to be decided by those with all of the facts, not members who have been given, as background, a few paragraphs on a mailed opinion poll or the vitriolic attacks sent to Index-l. Best, Victoria vbaker@pacific.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:15:11 -0700 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: How to Index with Word Sullivan, John wrote: > > I think Dick is right about the need for bookmarks in order to index > page ranges. You must assign a bookmark to a chunk of text and then > reference the bookmark name in the index tag. That may well be the only way to do it in mroe recent versions. I'm pretty sure that, in version 2.0, there was either a specific index field or (more likely) a modifier to the field that signified the end of a range. We're talking about 1990-91, so my recollection of the details is faulty. My work has been almost entirely online in one form or another, these past five years. Indexing for windows help--and lately for HTML--involves entirely different mechanisms (although many of the underlying principles are the same). --David ============================== David M. Brown -- Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com http://www.brown-inc.com/ ============================== See our web site for news about HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:22:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "William G. Meisheid" Subject: Re: Re[2]: How to Index with Word >Many Word indexing features (page ranges, for example) don't transfer into page-layout software. In addition, since Word uses Bookmarks for page ranges, moving text at the end of the range can create problems, negating some of the advantages of embedded indexes. I am not sure yet what to do with the page range issue... ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:38:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Tweed Subject: Word analysis in a large manuscript An appeal for help, please: I have a friend who is internet-impaired and has asked me to find out for him if there is any application (similar to an indexing software package) which will analyze his word usage in a 500 page manuscript he has written. He wants to do this for reasons of style analysis, I believe. His manuscript is in MS Word, and he wants to find an application that will count the number of occurences of each word in the entire manuscript. I am familiar with the usual indexing software with which one builds a "concordance" file and it lists the page numbers where they occur, but this is different. He wants the software to read the manuscript and output a list of every word used (listed just once, hopefully sorted in alphabetical order) and then count and list the total number of occurences of that word in the entire document. Is there a canned package that will do this, or is this something that could be customized easily from an existing indexing package? Any help would be appreciated. I am not a regular subscriber to your mailing list, so directly e-mailed replies would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, TT Tom Tweed UCSD, Physical Plant Services E-mail: tweedt@ucsd.edu voice: 619.534.1778 fax: 619.534.2386 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:36:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: "William G. Meisheid" "Re: Re[2]: How to Index with Word" (Oct 15, 5:22pm) > In addition, since Word uses Bookmarks for page ranges, moving text at the > end of the range can create problems, negating some of the advantages of > embedded indexes. I am not sure yet what to do with the page range issue... The difficulties with page ranges stem less from the software implementation (unless you are trying to convert the documents to another format; see below) than from working on a document in progress. For a fluid (changing, still edited) document, creating a page range broadens the potential of creating errors. If a section of text were removed from a range and places outside the range, that section wouldn't be properly indexed. If either end of the range were deleted (or more likely, completely rewritten), the range endpoints might be deleted as well. And in the worst case, the text marking the end of the range might get moved *before* the text marking the beginning, perhaps by relocating it to an early chapter. But each of these problems exists without embedding, too. In fact, if an indexer is working from page proofs when this happens, the consequences are worse, since not only is the range destroyed, but the pagination of who-knows- how-many-pages has been altered, thus affecting many other index entries. Changes like these are going to be more likely (it is assumed) when the index is being embedded, however, because one reason for embedding in the first place is to allow the indexing to begin before the pagination is final. When it comes to converting files with embedded range markers into other formats, Word is the worst-case scenario because the "bookmark" technology doesn't translate. But if you are converting the document for online use, ranges *can't* translate: there are no such things are ranges when it comes to online documents. Pages are replaced by file names, URLs, or section titles, and "page length" has no online equivalent. In addition, online files are no longer necessarily sequential. Although you can jump from one page of a book to another page, you know physically if you are going "forward" or "backward." With URLs, there are no such (intuitive) concepts. In my opinion, ranges are the greatest casualty of online document presentation when it comes to indexing. Good planning (and the consultancy of a good information architect or online help author) can help you brainstorm some page range alternatives. - Seth -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02472-2826 <--new zip (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 818-1885 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth ICQ# 16652316 co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org webmaster, STC Indexing SIG: http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:32:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Re: ASI and Indexer I recommend that anyone interested in this issue return to the Web site and reread the results of the survey, as well as the comments that people wrote. Margie Towery ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:23:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Word analysis in a large manuscript In a message dated 98-10-15 17:38:34 EDT, you write: << His manuscript is in MS Word, and he wants to find an application that will count the number of occurences of each word in the entire manuscript >> you are going to think I'm nuts. but I think you can - if you have the computer time, take a manuscript and change all the spaces to a line break with a global replace, Then create a "database" of the terms. Then using Access or some such, create a report. Theoretically possible. You'd have to ignore capitalization or change all the cases. Sharon.. I'm gonna try this on a small document. and see if it works. Curiosity killed more than a cat. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 21:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen A Spern Subject: Re: ASI Web Site Updates I was having troubing looking through the indexing listserv archive. the search engine doesn't appear to be working. this was last week, it could be fixed. Could the list owner look into this. Thanks! Karen Spern Archive Impact Imaging and Indexing On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:26:16 -0400 Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> writes: >All -- fyi ... the ASI Web Site (http://www.ASIndexing.org) has some >updates. > >Happy indexing! .... Lori > >Lori Lathrop (76620.456@compuserve.com) > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:23:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: Word analysis in a large manuscript In-Reply-To: <199810152133.RAA26696@camel23.mindspring.com> At 02:38 PM 15-10-98 -0700, Tom Tweed wrote: > I have a friend who is internet-impaired and has asked me to find out for him if there is any application (similar to an indexing software package) which will analyze his word usage in a 500 page manuscript he has written. He wants to do this for reasons of style analysis, I believe. < > His manuscript is in MS Word, and he wants to find an application that will count the number of occurences of each word in the entire manuscript. . . He wants the software to read the manuscript and output a list of every word used (listed just once, hopefully sorted in alphabetical order) and then count and list the total number of occurences of that word in the entire document. < The mind boggles. Wouldn't having an editor review it be easier, more accurate and, timewise, cheaper? If he's really determined to do this, he could: 1. get the Word grammar-checker's score (I forget which it is) 2. make a *copy*, close the original 3. delete the headers, footers, and all other extraneous text 4. change the page set-up so that the whole document is in five or six columns, and make the pages as long as possible 5. run a search/replace on the spaces and change each one to a return (which should throw each word on a separate line) 6. select and sort the whole document 7. remove all the garbage and extra spaces, which will show up at the top of page one (at this point, you should be able to replace the returns with spaces to make it more managable) 8. laboriously go through, select all occurrences of each word but one, have Word count the words in the selection, mentally add 1 to the word count, and type it in to replace the selection. If he tries this, he should probably try it first on a small section. I just made it up. All those returns might crash Word. Or, he could just search-and-replace each word, say with a number. Word will tell you how many it replaces. If he does _that_, he needs to specify a space on both sides so it won't replace words within words. This document isn't a thesis in education, is it? Cheers, Deborah, still wondering what an individual word count, not in context, tells you about a document's style ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 22:43:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: rivka Subject: My last word on WORD to Index. I disagree emphatically with what David thinks works best with Word. I've done indexes that way, and they are mediocre and frustrating in the extreme to edit. The only thing I agree with is where to embed the entries--that is, as close as possible to the referents. My original process is proven, and works, I stand.by it. The shorter process doesn't work nearly as well, and is much harder to edit. Cheers everyone. Rivka David wrote: I just realized I had made this harder than necessary, too! Here's a much simpler version: 1. Work your way through the document, embedding index entries right next to the words and phrases you want them to point to. 2. Compile the index. 3. For any index entry you want to change, go to the corresponding page numbers, and make your changes. 4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 as needed, until you're happy with the finished index. 5. Turn off hidden text, hide field codes, and compile the index. In other words, there's no reason to fiddle with hidden text and field codes until you finish the index. Sorry about the confusion. --David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 02:51:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Word analysis in a large manuscript I have a program called KEDIT which is based on an old IBM mainframe program that sorts large files very fast. One advantage of the program is you can tell it which columns to sort. This is handy as some of the word processing programs only sort on a set number of letters. Though it does not print out, on the screen there is a line counter so you can put the cursor on the first occurrence of a word and note the line number and then go to the last occurrence and note that line number and subtract the two. The program would work on an ASCII file but you should be able to convert the word document to ASCII with no problem (I think in Word lingo it is a text file). Using Word Perfect 5.1, I took a page of text, converted each space to a line break which gave me a list of words (one per line). Then took the file to KEDIT and sorted it on columns 1 to 15. Here is a sample of that output by by by by by by called called can can can can characteristics class class classification clear close CLP(AD) CLP(AD) COCOON COCOON COCOON collection; collections, common complex complex comprehensible comprehensive computed concept-based concept-based concept-based concepts concepts' conjunctive consistent consistent; constituents constraint constraint. constraints construction 500 pages might be a bit much for KEDIT but you could do things in junks. The sorting is very fast. At 01:23 AM 10/16/98 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:38 PM 15-10-98 -0700, Tom Tweed wrote: >> I have a friend who is internet-impaired and has asked me to find out >for him if there is any application (similar to an indexing software >package) which will analyze his word usage in a 500 page manuscript he has >written. He wants to do this for reasons of style analysis, I believe. < >> His manuscript is in MS Word, and he wants to find an application that >will count the number of occurrences of each word in the entire manuscript. >. . He wants the software to read the manuscript and output a list of every >word used (listed just once, hopefully sorted in alphabetical order) and >then count and list the total number of occurrences of that word in the >entire document. < > >The mind boggles. Wouldn't having an editor review it be easier, more >accurate and, timewise, cheaper? > >If he's really determined to do this, he could: >1. get the Word grammar-checker's score (I forget which it is) >2. make a *copy*, close the original >3. delete the headers, footers, and all other extraneous text >4. change the page set-up so that the whole document is in five or six >columns, and make the pages as long as possible >5. run a search/replace on the spaces and change each one to a return >(which should throw each word on a separate line) >6. select and sort the whole document >7. remove all the garbage and extra spaces, which will show up at the top >of page one (at this point, you should be able to replace the returns with >spaces to make it more manageable) >8. laboriously go through, select all occurrences of each word but one, >have Word count the words in the selection, mentally add 1 to the word >count, and type it in to replace the selection. > >If he tries this, he should probably try it first on a small section. I >just made it up. All those returns might crash Word. > >Or, he could just search-and-replace each word, say with a number. Word >will tell you how many it replaces. If he does _that_, he needs to specify >a space on both sides so it won't replace words within words. > >This document isn't a thesis in education, is it? > >Cheers, >Deborah, still wondering what an individual word count, not in context, >tells you about a document's style > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:04:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Word analysis in a large manuscript Well, as I said I would, I tried my handy method of converting text to a single word column. It works. I replaced all spaces with manual line breaks, then deleted all punctuation. Then converted all the text to caps and saved it as a text file. Then, because the test file was only 6000 words long, I pulled it in to excel and sorted it, I asked excel (you might hit a wall with excel for the size of document you talked about. Access might be better- ) for subtotals and bingo. So the theory works just fine. The computer capacity to do a 500 page document could be a problem. No gold at the end of the rainbow. Top words in order looks like a list of small verbs and prepositions. 1) to 2) and 3) was 4) of 5) in 6) as 7) at 8) for 9) on and so on. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:40:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Archives search engine In-Reply-To: <199810160147.VAA10756@library.lib.binghamton.edu> The search engine has been on the blink for a couple of months now. Julius Arial, who was in charge of the archives before his retirement has been trying to find the source of the problem. I'm sorry for the inconvenience and hope it will be rectified soon. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, Karen A Spern wrote: > I was having troubing looking through the indexing listserv archive. the > search engine doesn't appear to be working. this was last week, it could > be fixed. Could the list owner look into this. Thanks! > > Karen Spern > Archive Impact > Imaging and Indexing > > > On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:26:16 -0400 Lori Lathrop > <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> writes: > >All -- fyi ... the ASI Web Site (http://www.ASIndexing.org) has some > >updates. > > > >Happy indexing! .... Lori > > > >Lori Lathrop (76620.456@compuserve.com) > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 07:24:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Tweed Subject: Re: Word analysis in a large manuscript At 11:39 PM 10/15/98 +0000, you wrote: [snipped] >I don't really have a satisfactory answer, but faute de mieux one >might find a lead at http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon - >this is the site for the Icon programming language. This is a text >processing language which I believe is distributed free. It is taught >to students at the university. Their programming projects may well >include the kind of function you are looking for, and may be >available for download. To use such a function it would be necessary >to save the manuscript as a text (plain ASCII) file for the program >to work on. > >Regards John & the other listmembers who responded to my query: This advice was right on, I followed the link to the Icon site and found a program within their library called "tablw.icn" with the following description: #This program tabulates words and lists number of times each # word occurs. A word is defined to be a string of consecutive # upper- and lowercase letters with at most one interior occurrence # of a dash or apostrophe. # # Options: The following options are available: # # -a Write the summary in alphabetical order of the words. # This is the default. # # -i Ignore case distinctions among letters; uppercase # letters are mapped into to corresponding lowercase # letters on input. The default is to maintain case dis- # tinctions. # # -n Write the summary in numerical order of the counts. # # -l n Tabulate only words longer than n characters. The # default is to tabulate all words. # # -u Write only the words that occur just once. Now I just need to download the free software and program source code and make it work on the subject text file. Thanks very much for all the responses and suggestions. This Internet-thang is really amazing. I never would have stumbled across this solution without these vast electronic resources at my fingertips. My friend will be amazed. But you people all know that.... TT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:32:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: How to Index with Word In-Reply-To: <199810152141.OAA26021@ixmail1.ix.netcom.com> Regarding the online documents you mention, what if one used hyperlinks for the index and text links instead of the imbedded word field codes. With Word 97 you could use hyperlinks instead of the codes to mark the index entry then make an index using the links made in the text. You could actually use Cindex or Macrex for the index itself. Does this sound doable? Would it solve some of the headaches of embedded indexing? At 05:36 PM 10/15/98 -0400, you wrote: >> In addition, since Word uses Bookmarks for page ranges, moving text at the >> end of the range can create problems, negating some of the advantages of >> embedded indexes. I am not sure yet what to do with the page range issue... > >The difficulties with page ranges stem less from the software implementation >(unless you are trying to convert the documents to another format; see below) >than from working on a document in progress. For a fluid (changing, still >edited) document, creating a page range broadens the potential of creating >errors. If a section of text were removed from a range and places outside >the range, that section wouldn't be properly indexed. If either end of the >range were deleted (or more likely, completely rewritten), the range endpoints >might be deleted as well. And in the worst case, the text marking the end >of the range might get moved *before* the text marking the beginning, perhaps >by relocating it to an early chapter. > >But each of these problems exists without embedding, too. In fact, if an >indexer is working from page proofs when this happens, the consequences are >worse, since not only is the range destroyed, but the pagination of who-knows- >how-many-pages has been altered, thus affecting many other index entries. > >Changes like these are going to be more likely (it is assumed) when the index >is being embedded, however, because one reason for embedding in the first >place is to allow the indexing to begin before the pagination is final. > >When it comes to converting files with embedded range markers into other >formats, Word is the worst-case scenario because the "bookmark" technology >doesn't translate. But if you are converting the document for online use, >ranges *can't* translate: there are no such things are ranges when it comes >to online documents. Pages are replaced by file names, URLs, or section titles, >and "page length" has no online equivalent. In addition, online files are >no longer necessarily sequential. Although you can jump from one page of a >book to another page, you know physically if you are going "forward" or >"backward." With URLs, there are no such (intuitive) concepts. > >In my opinion, ranges are the greatest casualty of online document >presentation when it comes to indexing. Good planning (and the consultancy >of a good information architect or online help author) can help you >brainstorm some page range alternatives. > >- Seth > >-- >Seth A. Maislin (seth@oreilly.com) > >O'Reilly & Associates Focus Information Services >90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street >Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02472-2826 <--new zip >(617) 499-7439 phone (617) 818-1885 >(617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com > URL: http://www.oreilly.com/~seth ICQ# 16652316 > co-webmaster, Amer Soc of Indexers: http://www.asindexing.org > webmaster, STC Indexing SIG: http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing > > Linda Kenny Sloan indexer@ix.netcom.com ******************************************* Information Universe Editorial services for the aerospace and astronomy communities http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:42:31 -0700 Reply-To: dbarba@privateportfolio.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Daniel Barba Organization: Private Portfolio Subject: words used list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------357877563F8E013A750D55A7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Group: I would be very grateful for any suggestions for software to do the job outlined below. Ideally, it would be an adjunct to a word processor. I am using WordPerfect 8.0. I need a utility that will take a word processing file - a book, a chapter, or any other extended passage - process it, and hand me back an alphabetical list of all the words I used and the number of times each was used. If I had such a tool, I could quickly identify the words that I habitually use or overuse. I could check for synonymous that I do not use or that I underuse. It would be useful if the application could be instructed to ignore certain words - the, a, an, and, if, but, etc. - but that would not be essential. Nor would I be too concerned about having the different forms of a verb listed separately. Big deal; in the large majority of cases, the various forms would be contiguous in the list and easy to group up for a grand total. Thank you for any help you might be able to offer. Harry Crosby dbarba@privateportfolio.com --------------357877563F8E013A750D55A7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="dbarba.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Daniel Barba Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dbarba.vcf" begin:vcard n:Barba;Daniel tel;fax:619-551-2072 tel;home:619-581-3108 tel;work:619-551-2071 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.privateportfolio.com/ org:Private Portfolio, Inc. adr:;;7752 Fay Ave. Ste. H;La Jolla;CA;92037;USA version:2.1 email;internet:dbarba@privateportfolio.com title:President x-mozilla-cpt:;1 fn:Daniel Barba end:vcard --------------357877563F8E013A750D55A7-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:52:32 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: database indexing question In-Reply-To: <908399070.1112447.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <908399070.1112447.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, on Wed, 14 Oct 1998 at 17:01:45, writes >Dear Ms Brown, > You asked for thoughts on how you can develop a keywords >list that is right for your own publication. I agree with what Ben Lipetz says about the importance of involving users in the creation of an indexing vocabulary. I'd suggest, too, that for a database of the size that Stephanie Willen Brown had to index, it would be worth developing a proper hierarchical thesaurus of index terms rather than just a "keyword list". A lot will depend on how the database is to be searched, and whether the database software can use a thesaurus to expand hierarchies and replace non-preferred search terms automatically with preferred terms. There are some articles and references about thesaurus development and use on our Web site, URL below. Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:27:47 +0000 Reply-To: paper@lj.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sunny Subject: Re: A with tilde Hello. I am a new student in the USDA index course. From all this discussion, would it be correct for me to conclude that I need to get myself to the community college and really learn WORD or PageMaker to be savy with publishers??? I only know WordPerfect (have CorelSuite 8.0 now) at home. thanks for input! Oh yes, I will be gettin Cindex also. Can you get work using it? rebecca paper@lj.net Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote: > All I get for ALT+198 and ALT+199 is a broken vertical bar (=A6), in eith= > er > my e-mail software or Microsoft Word. Note that something like ALT+0227 > requires you to type the zero. > > Iris > > Heather Ebbs wrote: > > > On my windows keypad, ALT+198 is lowercase a with tilde; ALT+199 is > > uppercase. If the person with the problem requires alternative > > characters very often, it might be a good idea simply to type up your > > own key. It doesn't take very long at all simply to hold down your ALT > > key and start trying the different combos, beginning with ALT+128. Then > > you could print out your own key and keep it with your other refs. > > Heather Ebbs > > editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 16:08:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: pagination HI, I have a question on pagination. I have a text that requires indexing the content and the legend for Figures. When the Figure is on one page and the legend is on another page, how do you list the pages. Normally I use an 'f' for material included in the figure legend, but here, the legend is on another page. Would I still use 'f' ? so that it could be 225f, 226f ?? for one figure (225) with legend on 226. or 225-226f? or 225f, 226. I must be tired. 8-/ Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:16:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett Subject: AZ ASI Nov. 7 Meeting The Arizona chapter of the American Society of Indexers is proud to announce our next program on November 7, 1998: So You Want To Be An Indexer? If you've ever considered professional indexing as a career, this workshop is for you. Whether you are ready to launch a freelance business, are interested in moonlighting, or are simply curious, this workshop will answer many of the common questions asked about indexers and indexing. Topics include: * Educational and networking resources. Find out where you can learn to index and where to connect with other professionals. * Starting your indexing business. In addition to writing indexes, you'll have to run a business if you work on your own. Find out what you need to get started. * Using the library as a resource. Your public library offers a wealth of information to help with running a small business, marketing your services, and creating useful indexes. You'll learn about resources you might not know exist! * Software demonstrations. Professional indexers rely on dedicated indexing software. Get an overview of the most popular packages and find out where you can buy them. * An indexing FAQ. A panel of indexers representing the variety of opportunity in the profession will share some of their experience and answer your questions. November 7, 1998 8:30 - 9:00 Registration and networking 9:00 - 1:00 Presentations Location: Arizona State University Tempe, Arizona Memorial Union - Turquoise Room Cost: $20.00 for ASI members and non-members (includes all workshop materials and refreshments) Please visit our web site for a registration form: http://aztec.asu.edu/azasi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 18:32:41 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Review of Internet Messaging In-Reply-To: <04012898685178@domain1.bigpond.com> ------------------------------ > > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:08:12 EDT > From: Suellen Kasoff > Subject: Re: Internet Messaging: a book about e-mail > > Jeremy I tried that and it said the list was unknown. Suellen > I have just tried it and it worked for me. You may find that the address is case-sensitive: i.e. http://IBG.listbot.com. You'll then need to go to the archive. The review is in the last two messages. ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 14:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Koffler Subject: Re: pagination In-Reply-To: <199810162009.QAA14482@ulster.net> I'd use 225-226f >HI, > I have a question on pagination. I have a text that requires indexing the >content and the legend for Figures. When the Figure is on one page and the >legend is on another page, how do you list the pages. Normally I use an 'f' >for material included in the figure legend, but here, the legend is on another >page. > > Would I still use 'f' ? so that it could be 225f, 226f ?? for one figure >(225) with legend on 226. or 225-226f? or 225f, 226. > > I must be tired. 8-/ Sharon -Barry oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo barkof@ulster.net Barry Koffler mid-Hudson Valley, NY the FeatherSite at http://www.feathersite.com/ lead me not into temptation . . . I can find it myself. oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 14:41:59 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ned Myers Subject: ASI Sports/Fitness/Travel SIG The Sports/Fitness/Travel SIG would like anyone who is interested in indexing mateials in these subject areas to contact: Willa MacAllen, Co-Coordinator 286 Chestnut Hill Ave., #20 Brighton, MA 02135 (617) 787-1107 macallen@tiac.net or Ned Myers, C0-Coordinator 1681 Hwy 98 W, #5 Mary Esther, FL 32569 (850)581-6265 nmyers@gnt.net If you are interested in joining th SIG, please register with your name, address, telephone number, snail mail address to either Willa or Ned. Once we receive this information, we will establish an email roundtable to discuss Sports/Fitness/Travel startup issues. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:37:27 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: ASI Sports/Fitness/Travel SIG In-Reply-To: <199810172001.NAA12743@neti.saber.net> Is there a fee to join? >The Sports/Fitness/Travel SIG would like anyone who is interested in >indexing mateials in these subject areas to contact: > >Willa MacAllen, Co-Coordinator >286 Chestnut Hill Ave., #20 >Brighton, MA 02135 >(617) 787-1107 >macallen@tiac.net > >or > >Ned Myers, C0-Coordinator >1681 Hwy 98 W, #5 >Mary Esther, FL 32569 >(850)581-6265 >nmyers@gnt.net > > >If you are interested in joining th SIG, please register with your name, >address, telephone number, snail mail address to either Willa or Ned. > >Once we receive this information, we will establish an email roundtable to >discuss Sports/Fitness/Travel startup issues. ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:11:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: pagination In a message dated 98-10-16 16:10:19 EDT, Sharon wrote: << When the Figure is on one page and the legend is on another page, how do you list the pages. >> I'd choose 225-226f and keep this format consistently regardless if the legend is on the left or righthand page. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Japanese names I need an expert in Japanese names to help me figure out the following: Mrs. Sadako Ogata She is the current or a former UN High Commissioner for Refugees. I know that Japanese names usually present surname first, and so are not inverted. What I can't tell is whether this construction, with the title "Mrs.," is analogous to Mrs. John Jones, Mrs. Jane Jones, or Mrs. Smith Jones. IOW, should I index it as "Sadako Ogata" or "Sadako Ogata, Mrs.?" TIA, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services 8112 Harrison Dr. King George, VA 22485 (540) 775-4072 jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:58:27 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Japanese names In-Reply-To: <199810181948.MAA26737@neti.saber.net> Kara wrote: >I need an expert in Japanese names to help me figure out the following: > Mrs. Sadako Ogata >She is the current or a former UN High Commissioner for Refugees. I know >that Japanese names usually present surname first, and so are not inverted. > What I can't tell is whether this construction, with the title "Mrs.," is >analogous to Mrs. John Jones, Mrs. Jane Jones, or Mrs. Smith Jones. IOW, >should I index it as "Sadako Ogata" or "Sadako Ogata, Mrs.?" > Kara, It seems that her name has been Westernized and should therefore be inverted in an index as per Chicago 17.119. I found the following on the Internet that I think supports this: http://www.s9.com/biography/search.html The Biographical Dictionary Result of search for Sadako Ogata Ogata, Sadako Japanese administrator; UN high commissioner for refugees 1991-- _1927-- 993.11.10 : PHS Personnel to UN . . . .and a press release from the: U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES Contact: Linda Vogel Wednesday, Nov. 10, 1993 (301) 443-1774 HHS Secretary Donna E. Shalala and Mrs. Sadako Ogata, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), have signed a memorandum of understanding permitting temporary assignment of U.S. Public Health Service personnel to UNHCR. On signing the memorandum of understanding, Secretary Shalala expressed deep concern about the 19 million refugees in the world, and acknowledged the enormous demands on UNHCR to respond to this suffering, particularly that of women and children. "This agreement is an important vehicle for using the very substantial expertise of HHS in such areas as epidemiology, nutrition, maternal and child health, and sanitation to improve the situation of refugee populations," Secretary Shalala said. "This cooperation will also provide our Public Health Service with additional experience to be applied in other public health emergency situations." *Mrs. Ogata* said. . . . http://www.os.dhhs.gov/news/press/pre1995pres/931110b.txt ******************************************************************************** Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ******************************************************************************** ******* ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:31:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Chat ;-) --- Hither, Thither, Whither? From a letter to the editor in the Nov/Dec "Birdwatcher's Digest" which was titled "Oopseth": Alas, your striking 20th anniversary cover... has been spoileth by a mistake: "hither" means "at this place," as in "hither and thither" or "hither and yon" -- here and there. What you should have said was "whither," which means "to what place." One commandeth, "come hither" (come here), or asketh, "Whither are we going?" (where are we going?). For next time: Hither = Here; Thither = There; Whither = Where to? That's alleth. Mim Eisenberg, Roswell Georgia --------------------------------------------------- I believe Ms. Eisenberg must have some indexing/editing/proofreading aptitude, as well a great sense of humor. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suzanne Peake Subject: Re: Japanese names In-Reply-To: <199810181948.NAA10211@indexing.com> Sadako *is* actually her personal name, Ogata the family name. If the name was presented to you written in this order, I would index it as a Western name. (If Japanese usage were in effect, she would have been Ogata Sadako.) Suzanne Peake At 03:42 PM 10/18/98 -0400, you wrote: >I need an expert in Japanese names to help me figure out the following: > Mrs. Sadako Ogata >She is the current or a former UN High Commissioner for Refugees. I know >that Japanese names usually present surname first, and so are not inverted. > What I can't tell is whether this construction, with the title "Mrs.," is >analogous to Mrs. John Jones, Mrs. Jane Jones, or Mrs. Smith Jones. IOW, >should I index it as "Sadako Ogata" or "Sadako Ogata, Mrs.?" > >TIA, >Kara Pekar > >Wordsmith Indexing Services >8112 Harrison Dr. >King George, VA 22485 >(540) 775-4072 >jkpekar@crosslink.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:14:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: extreme arrrrgh!!! Oh man, I just received a copy of a book I indexed, and there are whole entries deleted from it, so that all that info is now lost, and furthermore there are now cross refs to those now non-existent entries. Can you believe it? I am extremely disappointed, because this index was for a prestigious and well-known company and I had looked forward to being able to use it as a sample. It is now of course completely unusable as a sample. Anyone who uses this now seriously impaired index will think I am an effing moron as they will not know that I am not the Slasher who murdered the index. I'm sure the index wasn't perfect, but I think it was pretty good. I'm mad as heck. Mad as heck. Fuming fuming Oh well. On to the next one. Rache Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 19:40:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! Rachel, My sympathies, really. This is a worst case scenario. When I began indexing full-time, and the volume of books I was doing was way up, I used to think it would be cool to have my name on my work. I would be so proud to have my name in the book, I thought. I asked for it to be put in -- often without success, but I asked. However <....the other shoe drops now>..., after a few incidents of the type you just described, I stopped asking and figured that I was better off working anonymously. Then, if an editor (or author?) butchered one of my indexes by editing it down arbitrarily, my name would NOT (thankfully) be associated with the book and my reputation would be untarnished. It would simply be relegated to the world's Heap of Books With Bad Indexes. So I no longer ask or permit my name to be publicly associated with the books I index in the printed copy unless (a) it is specifically understood that it not be edited after submission (or that I do the edit), or (b) I have a relationship of trust with the editor. Sad that it has to be this way. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:08:59 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Mary F. Prottsman" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! Yes, Lord, we must have spent 30 minutes on the phone with mother last night after you called and the same the night before. First she told Ron in detail and then me. I'm SOOOOOO glad you called her. We were all wondering and waiting. Child, we are so proud of you both. Now, instead of braggin about my cousin who's married to Mike DuBose, I'm bragging about my brother who knows Woody Alle.n. When I finally got across to Whit what Park Avenue was all about, his first question was what did ya'll wear? You must send us a picture of you 2 in all your finery. Again, we are all so happy for you both. Mary Fran -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Rice To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 11:15 PM Subject: extreme arrrrgh!!! >Oh man, I just received a copy of a book I indexed, and there are whole >entries deleted from it, so that all that info is now lost, and furthermore >there are now cross refs to those now non-existent entries. Can you believe >it? I am extremely disappointed, because this index was for a prestigious >and well-known company and I had looked forward to being able to use it as >a sample. It is now of course completely unusable as a sample. Anyone who >uses this now seriously impaired index will think I am an effing moron as >they will not know that I am not the Slasher who murdered the index. I'm >sure the index wasn't perfect, but I think it was pretty good. I'm mad as >heck. Mad as heck. > >Fuming fuming > >Oh well. On to the next one. > >Rache > > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:46:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mcelroy Subject: indexers in New Orleans, beginner rates This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone, I am a new indexer in New Orleans and would like to contact any = established indexers working in or around the New Orleans area. I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. As beginner I realize = that I would need to charge at the low end of the scale but where does = that scale start? I have seen a few rate ranges in various books and so = forth but they all seem to be a few years old. Could someone please give = me a rough idea of the going rates per page and per hour. If this is = something I can find in the archives please let me know where to find it = and I'll go there. Thanks, Meredith McElroy ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone,
I am a new indexer in New Orleans and would like to = contact=20 any established indexers working in or around the
New Orleans area.
 
I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. = As=20 beginner I realize that I would need to charge at = the low=20 end of the scale but where does that scale start? I have seen a few rate ranges in various books and so forth but they = all seem to=20 be a few years old. Could someone please give me a = rough=20 idea of the going rates per page and per hour.   If this is = something=20 I can find in the archives please let me know = where to find=20 it and I'll go there.
 
Thanks,
Meredith McElroy
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: indexers in New Orleans, beginner rates In-Reply-To: <199810200350.XAA16362@mail2.bellsouth.net> Meredith, I'm in Baton Rouge... but only since last February. I was in Dallas for 30 years before that. BTW, the South Central Chapter of ASI meets in San Antonio this coming weekend. That's perhaps too short notice for you to make it, but we're doing a workshop on marketing, which sounds like it would be of particular interest... If you'll send me your email address, we can perhaps discuss local stuff off-list. (You might put your email in your .sig file for lists like this for that reason.) Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of mcelroy |Sent: Monday, October 19, 1998 9:47 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: indexers in New Orleans, beginner rates | | |This is a multi-part message in MIME format. | |------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00 |Content-Type: text/plain; | charset="iso-8859-1" |Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable | |Hello Everyone, |I am a new indexer in New Orleans and would like to contact any = |established indexers working in or around the |New Orleans area. | |I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. As beginner I realize = |that I would need to charge at the low end of the scale but where does = |that scale start? I have seen a few rate ranges in various books and so = |forth but they all seem to be a few years old. Could someone please give = |me a rough idea of the going rates per page and per hour. If this is = |something I can find in the archives please let me know where to find it = |and I'll go there. | |Thanks, |Meredith McElroy | |------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00 |Content-Type: text/html; | charset="iso-8859-1" |Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable | | | | | | | | | |
Hello Everyone,
|
I am a new indexer in New Orleans and would like to = |contact=20 |any established indexers working in or around the
|
New Orleans area.
|
 
|
I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. = |As=20 |beginner I realize that I would need to charge at = |the low=20 |end of the scale but where does that scale start? I have seen a few rate ranges in various books and so forth but they = |all seem to=20 |be a few years old. Could someone please give me a = |rough=20 |idea of the going rates per page and per hour.   If this is = |something=20 |I can find in the archives please let me know = |where to find=20 |it and I'll go there.
|
 
|
Thanks,
|
Meredith McElroy
| |------=_NextPart_000_0031_01BDFBA9.FE53EE00-- | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:56:10 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: extreme arrrgh!!! This question of editors/authors/typesetters mangling our indexes was discussed at the recent Tynemouth conference of the Society of Indexers (UK). The overwhelming majority of indexers present said they would like to see the proofs of their index before the final printing. The representatives of publishers who were present seemed surprised that we cared that much, but said that lack of time was the obstacle to sending us the proofs. But the proofs could be sent direct from the typesetter at the same time as to the publisher, and it would only take a few minutes to have a look and check whether all is well, and then a phone call or e-mail to say 'fine, go ahead' or 'hold it!' The small amount of extra time could be built into the final fee. If we all insisted on seeing the index proofs before publication, then perhaps publishers would come to accept this as part of the process and to understand that we take pride in our work and will not accept it being abused. We could then be happy to be credited in the book - but that is another battle! Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 05:01:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Crawling aaargh! In-Reply-To: <199810201003.DAA16682@decibel.electriciti.com> I agree with Margaret below. I actually have never been edited to arrgh! This is probably why my blood pressure remains tolerable. My problem is that indexes don't always get edited enough when page numbers crawl after last-minute page proof changes. We've discussed this previously. Can anyone add a solution to that? Prolblems would probably go unnoticed from index-only proofs > >If we all insisted on seeing the index proofs before publication, then >perhaps publishers would come to accept this as part of the process and to >understand that we take pride in our work and will not accept it being >abused. We could then be happy to be credited in the book - but that is >another battle! > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: CINDEX sorting problem Hi everyone, I use CINDEX for Windows and am having trouble with a sorting problem. I want to sort entries that have page numbers like: ab 88 ab 1012 eo 10 rpb 250 rep 1365 etc. in page order sort by the numbers only, so I can do a check of multiple postings and page number accuracy. I am having trouble telling CINDEX to ignore the letters and just concentrate on the page numbers. I have tried everything in the manual (I think) and nothing seems to be right when I do it (probably my fault, not CINDEX's), so if anyone can help me, I would appreciate it! Thanks. ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:25:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: CINDEX sorting problem solved Hi everyone, Well, out of sheer desperation, I wrestled a bit more with the settings and seem to have solved the problem, by setting CINDEX in the sort mode to: in fields: +page (only, nothing else with +) in locators: +Arabic numerals and nothing else checked in that box, with everything else checked in the other boxes. What had been messing me up was that I was trying to get the segment order to sort on the second segment of the locator (in the case the actual page numbers) and it wasn't working. Thanks for your patience! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services "Cookbooks and Food History a Specialty" cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:57:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Checking proof I routinely ask for proof, but I get it only about 5% of the time. Lots of excuses, but it seems like the only people who are convinced it is worthwhile are the people who already do it. If all indexers begin to ask for this routinely, perhaps we can make an industry-wide change about this policy. But in 15 years of indexing, I've only had a few clients who ever wanted to bother (even though I check proof at no cost to them). Most of these were local clients, which must mean something--but WHAT exactly? Like Janet, I think it's easier to index anonymously unless you know the client well enough to trust how your work will be handled after it leaves your office. On the other hand, I would love to see us all get behind this issue because it would be a relatively simple thing to accomplish and would provide better service for the readers, not to mention the clients. Perhaps someone could write an article for KeyWords about this, with some tips about how to get clients to comply?? Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:05:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: indexers in New Orleans, beginner rates In-Reply-To: <199810200350.XAA19248@camel10.mindspring.com> At 09:46 PM 10/19/98 -0500, you wrote: > > I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. As beginner I realize = > that I would need to charge at the low end of the scale but where does = > that scale start? I have seen a few rate ranges in various books and so = > forth but they all seem to be a few years old. Could someone please give = > me a rough idea of the going rates per page and per hour. If this is = > something I can find in the archives please let me know where to find it = > and I'll go there. Try the Indexing FAQ at http://www.asindexing.org/indfaq.htm#FAQ1009 Also, ASI did a salary survey a couple of years ago, but I don't see it on their Web page. I'll see if I can round it up. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:08:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! Rachel's experience of finding her index has been (to be polite) tampered with happened to one of mine too that I was particularly proud of, major publisher and all. It is now worthless as a sample. Is this a frequent result of not establishing better relationships with production people or what? Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:43:54 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Kells Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810192321.TAA30980@camel16.mindspring.com> Oy, do I feel for you, Rachel. The same thing happened to me this year after a trusted, smart, best-editor-I-know client butchered my latest index for her. I was devastated. Crushed. Humiliated. The thought of a colleague seeing that index terrified me. It still does. At that point I took a drastic measure: I decided I would ONLY allow my name to be attached to my indexes (1) if I was able to review and approve all edits or (2) if I knew that the publisher would make _no_ edits. It was a difficult decision. You know, I want to see my name in the books I work on and I want indexers to start getting recognized for this difficult work. But after seeing that one index that would downright ruin my reputation as a professional indexer if anyone saw it.... well, I had to do something. It was awkward at first hearing "you're sure you don't want your name on this? You'll see our editors know what they're doing." I use it as another opportunity to educate clients on how specialized indexing is, and that editors who deal with indexes really ought to be trained in indexing. No one has been offended '-) and I don't have to worry about it ever happening again. Hope this helps. -Kari "boy is the adrenaline rushing now" Kells ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Kari Kells I n d e x W e s t indexwest@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/ P.O. Box 2748 Vashon Island, WA 98070 206-567-5696 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ At 07:14 PM 10/19/98 -0400, you wrote: >Oh man, I just received a copy of a book I indexed, and there are whole >entries deleted from it, so that all that info is now lost, and furthermore >there are now cross refs to those now non-existent entries. Can you believe >it? I am extremely disappointed, because this index was for a prestigious >and well-known company and I had looked forward to being able to use it as >a sample. It is now of course completely unusable as a sample. Anyone who >uses this now seriously impaired index will think I am an effing moron as >they will not know that I am not the Slasher who murdered the index. I'm >sure the index wasn't perfect, but I think it was pretty good. I'm mad as >heck. Mad as heck. > >Fuming fuming > >Oh well. On to the next one. > >Rache > > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:07:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In a message dated 10/20/98 11:58:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, WordenDex@AOL.COM writes: > Is this a frequent result of not > establishing better relationships with production people or what? Being an in-house indexer, I have a cozy relationship with the production people and I still have problems. The layout person removed all the indentations last week because they were "all over the place," and she thought a straight margin would be more attractive. She had done the same thing a year ago and I had patiently explained what main headings, what subheadings are, and the reasons for the indents. Moral: Always be on guard! Nell ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:31:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Editors and Edits Diane wrote: << Rachel's experience of finding her index has been .... tampered with happened to one of mine too that I was particularly proud .... Is this a frequent result of not establishing better relationships with production people or what? >> Diane, To my way of thinking it has more to do with education than with relationships. I think it points up an extreme lack of knowledge on the part of the production staff and the editors in the publishing house. It is my opinion that many (not all) of the production people we deal with do not realize the importance of a good, professional index, have no knowledge of what such an index is, and do not realize the level of skill the work of indexing requires. They simply do not know how we work and what we do. And yes, this is a sweeping generalization, my "take" on how we indexers are perceived, generally. I think this speaks to a general lack of understanding. What is missing is Knowledge and Information. As a result, our work is often thought of as more clerical than anything else. Why else would somebody want to have a computer create an index (I still hear that from editors from time to time). Why else would we have to fight so for a professional level rate for our work. Why else would we have to make such an issue over seeing corrections/changes to our work. Authors are accorded the courtesy of reviewing edits. Why not us? Are we not professionals too? Apparently we aren't being viewed that way. Lest some of my Enlightened Editors be reading this.... Publishers *do* have editors and production people who are respectful and knowledgable about indexing and indexers. I have met quite a few, and they are my most valued clients and friends. I give them 150% when I work for them, because I know they know what I go through to get them a good product within their tight timeframe. And they are respectful of my work, and consult me if edits are needed, or a mistake appears to have crept in. With email, phone, and fax, it doesn't delay the book's production schedule. So ... we all have a lot of work to do. I find myself often in the role of educator -- educating my client about what I do and how difficult it is, how it requires intellectual analysis, is NOT clerical, etc. I think we all must continue to be professionals and to stress the professional aspects of our profession, as one of many freelancers in the publishing field. We really bridge 2 fields, when we think of it. We are publishing professionals, AND information retrieval professionals. This puts us square in the forefront of a major, growing field, rather than in the background. Info retrieval is where it's at. If you can't find it, it isn't there!! We are much needed, and we need to tell people so. [BTW, when I find myself in the position of explaining what an indexer does, I often say I work in the publishing field as an information retrieval specialist. It puts me right where I want to be!] So ... I'll step down off my soapbox now. There's work to be done. By each of us individually, and by the American Society of Indexers, if it is to represent our profession. Our image needs lifting, and our professional society should be helping us out with this! Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810201558.LAA09986@mail4.bellsouth.net> No, I think it's basically a "them-or-us" issue.... No editor *ever* sends me proofs of indexes I've done, but I don't expect it, either. The editor is concerned with getting the whole project done in time and (as we all know) the indexer is the last person outside that office to handle the material. (I always have this mental image of a group of people standing around in the editorial office, tapping their toes, checking their watches, and waiting impatiently for UPS.) Sometimes (too often), even with talented and experienced production people, the space available for the index turns out to be not quite enough and it has to be cut, or thinned down, or condensed, or whatever -- and they're not going to have time to send it back to you for your okay. Besides, you're not even one of "them," no matter how good your working relationship is. You're hired help, you've done what they've paid you for, and now the work belongs to them, and they've got twenty other projects waiting to be worked on. So I don't take it personally. :) Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Diane Worden |Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 9:09 AM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! | | |Rachel's experience of finding her index has been (to be polite) |tampered with |happened to one of mine too that I was particularly proud of, |major publisher |and all. It is now worthless as a sample. Is this a frequent result of not |establishing better relationships with production people or what? | Diane in Kazoo | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:09:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC4C.69A69EE0 Content-Type: text/plain Regarding butchered indexes: If this happened to me (it hasn't yet but I'm a relatively new indexer) I would quickly write a letter to the publisher AND the author, tactfully pointing out the errors that resulted from their chopping of the index. If nothing else, it would absolve me, the indexer, of any blame when readers inevitably notice the mistakes and point them out. Aside from the index's uselessness as a sample, I'd worry that the author or publisher would come to regard my work as substandard, not realizing or admitting that the mistakes arose during last minute production. Anne Day > ---------- > From: Kari Kells > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 3:43 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! > > Oy, do I feel for you, Rachel. The same thing happened to me this year > after a trusted, smart, best-editor-I-know client butchered my latest > index > for her. I was devastated. Crushed. Humiliated. The thought of a > colleague seeing that index terrified me. It still does. > > At that point I took a drastic measure: I decided I would ONLY allow my > name to be attached to my indexes (1) if I was able to review and approve > all edits or (2) if I knew that the publisher would make _no_ edits. It > was a difficult decision. You know, I want to see my name in the books I > work on and I want indexers to start getting recognized for this difficult > work. But after seeing that one index that would downright ruin my > reputation as a professional indexer if anyone saw it.... well, I had to > do > something. > > It was awkward at first hearing "you're sure you don't want your name on > this? You'll see our editors know what they're doing." I use it as > another opportunity to educate clients on how specialized indexing is, and > that editors who deal with indexes really ought to be trained in indexing. > No one has been offended '-) and I don't have to worry about it ever > happening again. > > Hope this helps. > -Kari "boy is the adrenaline rushing now" Kells > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > Kari Kells > I n d e x W e s t > indexwest@mindspring.com > http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/ > > P.O. Box 2748 > Vashon Island, WA 98070 > 206-567-5696 > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > > At 07:14 PM 10/19/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Oh man, I just received a copy of a book I indexed, and there are whole > >entries deleted from it, so that all that info is now lost, and > furthermore > >there are now cross refs to those now non-existent entries. Can you > believe > >it? I am extremely disappointed, because this index was for a prestigious > >and well-known company and I had looked forward to being able to use it > as > >a sample. It is now of course completely unusable as a sample. Anyone who > >uses this now seriously impaired index will think I am an effing moron as > >they will not know that I am not the Slasher who murdered the index. I'm > >sure the index wasn't perfect, but I think it was pretty good. I'm mad as > >heck. Mad as heck. > > > >Fuming fuming > > > >Oh well. On to the next one. > > > >Rache > > > > > > Rachel Rice > > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > > Indexing, editing, proofreading > > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > > > ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC4C.69A69EE0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: extreme arrrrgh!!!

Regarding butchered indexes: = If this happened to me (it hasn't yet but I'm a relatively new indexer) = I would quickly write a letter to the publisher AND the author, = tactfully pointing out the errors that resulted from their chopping of = the index. If nothing else, it would absolve me, the indexer, of any = blame when readers inevitably notice the mistakes and point them = out.  Aside from the index's uselessness as a sample, I'd worry = that the author or publisher would come to regard my work as = substandard, not realizing or admitting that the mistakes arose during = last minute production.

Anne Day

    ----------
    From:   Kari Kells
    Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
    Sent:   Tuesday, October 20, 1998 3:43 AM
    To:     = Multiple recipients of list = INDEX-L
    Subject: =        Re: = extreme arrrrgh!!!

    Oy, do I feel for you, Rachel.  = The same thing happened to me this year
    after a trusted, smart, = best-editor-I-know client butchered my latest index
    for her.  I was = devastated.  Crushed.  Humiliated.  The thought of = a
    colleague seeing that index terrified = me.  It still does.

    At that point I took a drastic = measure: I decided I would ONLY allow my
    name to be attached to my indexes (1) = if I was able to review and approve
    all edits or (2) if I knew that the = publisher would make _no_ edits.  It
    was a difficult decision.  You = know, I want to see my name in the books I
    work on and I want indexers to start = getting recognized for this difficult
    work.  But after seeing that one = index that would downright ruin my
    reputation as a professional indexer = if anyone saw it.... well, I had to do
    something.

    It was awkward at first hearing = "you're sure you don't want your name on
    this?  You'll see our editors = know what they're doing."  I use it as
    another opportunity to educate = clients on how specialized indexing is, and
    that editors who deal with indexes = really ought to be trained in indexing.
    No one has been offended '-) and I = don't have to worry about it ever
    happening again.

    Hope this helps.
    -Kari "boy is the adrenaline = rushing now" Kells

    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~
    Kari Kells
    I n d e x   W e s t
    indexwest@mindspring.com
    http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/

    P.O. Box 2748
    Vashon Island, WA 98070
    206-567-5696
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~

    At 07:14 PM 10/19/98 -0400, you = wrote:
    >Oh man, I just received a copy of = a book I indexed, and there are whole
    >entries deleted from it, so that = all that info is now lost, and furthermore
    >there are now cross refs to those = now non-existent entries. Can you believe
    >it? I am extremely disappointed, = because this index was for a prestigious
    >and well-known company and I had = looked forward to being able to use it as
    >a sample. It is now of course = completely unusable as a sample. Anyone who
    >uses this now seriously impaired = index will think I am an effing moron as
    >they will not know that I am not = the Slasher who murdered the index. I'm
    >sure the index wasn't perfect, = but I think it was pretty good. I'm mad as
    >heck. Mad as heck.
    >
    >Fuming fuming
    >
    >Oh well. On to the next = one.
    >
    >Rache
    >
    >
    > Rachel Rice
    > Directions Unlimited Desktop = Services
    > Indexing, editing, = proofreading
    > http://homepages.together.net/~racric
    >

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC4C.69A69EE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:21:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! Michael wrote: << Besides, you're not even one of "them," no matter how good your working relationship is. You're hired help, you've done what they've paid you for, and now the work belongs to them, and they've got 20 other projects waiting to be worked on. >> Yes, and that's why I say we have to assert ourselves about professionalism. We're not "just" hired help. We have to act as if our work is important, and the index is important. I know about schedules and working with a client when they are in a major crunch. Sometimes you just have to deal with the deadline schedule and leave the education to another time. Timing is everything. Education may have to take place after that, when a production is out of "crunch mode" and can listen and think about what you're saying. But ..... the education needs to be done. We have to explain that the index is important. This is about quality -- the quality of the book as a whole. It isn't only about speed. IF production editors were of the belief that the quality of the index would sell a book better ( or cause it *not* to sell), and IF sales figures were traceable back to an index and their decisions about the indexes, they'd sing a different tune. I still say education about the value of an index would help a lot. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:33:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Preventing mangling of indexes I just had another idea, but you experienced indexers can tell me whether or not it's realistic. Since index-mangling by typesetters/production people seems to be such a big problem, what if the indexer submits either 1) two versions of the index, one being the "ideal" index and the other a slightly pared down version and labelled as such, or 2) straightforward directions as to which parts of the index should be cut first if space is a problem? I don't think either would add a lot of time to the indexing process but might prevent the mangling in some cases. It sounds like many in-house production people just delete lines arbitrarily, so perhaps they'd be relieved to have a few directions to follow. What do you think? Anne Day ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:43:11 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Moira Greenhalgh Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! >Michael wrote: > ><< Besides, you're not even one of "them," no matter how good your working >relationship is. You're hired help, you've done what they've paid you for, and >now the work belongs to them, and they've got 20 other projects waiting to be >worked on. >> I suppose, if you see yourself as `hired help', then that is how you deserve to be treated. Moira moiracg@dialin.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:55:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes Anne wrote: << ...Since index-mangling by typesetters/production people seems to be such a big problem, what if the indexer submits either 1) two versions of the index, one being the "ideal" index and the other a slightly pared down version and labelled as such, or 2) straightforward directions as to which parts of the index should be cut first if space is a problem? >> I'm not sure I'd want to offer them two versions of my index, since I try to make it the best possible index for the book. But I do sometimes tell the editor (in my letter accompanying the index) to call me if they need to cut the index, offering to tell them how to do it without harming index quality. I tend to do this 1) if I know they're having space problems 2) if, while making the usual somewhat arbitrary decisions about how far to break things down and how many details to put in, etc., I've tended to err on the expansive side. However, I've rarely been taken up on this offer...so I don't know what that proves! Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:00:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810201722.NAA11078@mail1.bellsouth.net> I wasn't being flip, Janet (not deliberately, anyway...). I do some educating of the client, too -- but nearly always with academic first-timers, professors getting ready to publish their first book through a university press, with the help of a grant. When they're on their own to find an indexer, and especially when they've been thinking about doing it themselves ("It's easy: You just highlight the words you want, right?"), that's when they're most in need of a careful explanation of the role of the index, why it's not just a mechanical function their computer can do, and why it can make or break their book. (Academics who have a book or two behind them have a much clearer grasp of the process, and of what's *necessary*, and are much easier to deal with.) But I also have a few clients who are managing editors or production managers with larger university presses, or with large commercial houses, with whom I've been dealing for as long as ten years. These aren't kids or beginners and they know what the book *ought* to have -- but they're constrained by the 'bottom line'. Occasionally, one of them will apologize for (say) having to cut an index by 20% at the last minute; they *sigh* when they say it. I put that in the same category as having to do a ten-day index in three days, with all the shortcuts such a schedule demands. I *sigh*, too, but this is a business. ----- I also do some writing for pay (hell, I'll take a crack at almost anything that involves moving words around), and when someone discovers that I'm a "writer," and (inevitably) asks "What do you write?", I usually say "I'm a hack -- but a good one." I don't consider "hack" a pejorative. I mean that I'm a professional. I write something -- a manual, some mail-order catalog copy, an executive's bio for a house organ, fluff for an annual report -- and I get paid for it,... and it isn't "art." It's just work. It's generally *important* work, esp to the client, but I don't have much ego investment in it. If the client decides to rewrite the whole thing, that's okay by me, as long as he's sent me the check. Perhaps that sounds cynical, but after 15+ years of this, I can't treat every piece of work I do as my "baby." Strangely enough, I'm also co-editor of a genealogical journal and I do the copyediting and book review column for another journal, both as an unpaid volunteer, and I have a *lot* more ego invested in both of those.... Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds |-----Original Message----- |From: Indexer's Discussion Group |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of JPerlman@AOL.COM |Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 12:21 PM |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! | | |Michael wrote: | |<< Besides, you're not even one of "them," no matter how good your working |relationship is. You're hired help, you've done what they've paid |you for, and |now the work belongs to them, and they've got 20 other projects |waiting to be |worked on. >> | |Yes, and that's why I say we have to assert ourselves about |professionalism. |We're not "just" hired help. We have to act as if our work is |important, and |the index is important. I know about schedules and working with a |client when |they are in a major crunch. Sometimes you just have to deal with |the deadline |schedule and leave the education to another time. | |Timing is everything. Education may have to take place after that, when a |production is out of "crunch mode" and can listen and think about |what you're |saying. But ..... the education needs to be done. We have to explain that |the index is important. This is about quality -- the quality of |the book as a |whole. It isn't only about speed. IF production editors were of |the belief |that the quality of the index would sell a book better ( or cause |it *not* to |sell), and IF sales figures were traceable back to an index and their |decisions about the indexes, they'd sing a different tune. I still say |education about the value of an index would help a lot. | |Janet Perlman |Southwest Indexing | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:05:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! To Everyone: I must be in the minority, but since I am never given credit for a book I index, then it is the publisher's book to deal with. Indices can change due to space constraints, time constraints, monetary constraints. If the publisher changes the index without consulting me, then it does so at its own risk. I do not worry what the index will look like in the end. I am always proud of the work I do in the form I sent to them. If I find they changed it dramatically, well that is their prerogative. They're footing the bill, after all. The one time my index had better be perfect is for one of my own books. I realize this may seem contrarian, but so be it. We are the last link in the chain, an important link of course, but a link that can be altered and sometimes has to be. Rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:12:42 -0700 Reply-To: indexer@ibm.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sherry L. Smith" Subject: Re: index importance; was extreme arrrrgh!!! Working with publishers is one way to promote the indexing profession and the importance of indexes. Another way is communication with book reviewers. Each of us reads a variety of newspapers and periodicals. How many of those publications mention the index when reviewing a book? What if each of us requested that information from the publication? A letter to the editor, for example, could comment on a book review and ask for index information. This type of request speaks more directly to the market---the buyers and readers of the books. As readers begin to expect comments on indexes, publishers will start placing more importance on creating and producing them. Those publishers who already recognize their importance will be one step ahead in their sales and marketing. This kind of education and communication is relatively easy to do because there are lots of us indexers and there is no need to create an ASI structure or project to complete it. ASI efforts could be focused on the publishers and individual efforts could focus on the book reviewers. Sherry Sherry L Smith INDEXING SERVICES 63505 Bridle Lane Bend, OR 97701 541 382 6414 indexer@ibm.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:48:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC1F.6FE24F10 Content-Type: text/plain This is just a thought from a wannabee indexer, but perhaps a campaign to potential readers to inundate the publisher with complaints when the index is unusable and severely interferes with the usability of the book. Probably naive and impossible--just a random thought. FWIW 'Course I don't know how you'd actually do this. Sigh. It really is more than a shame when the potential of the book is severely curtailed by an unusable index. I know I get very frustrated when I run across this as a reader. From now on, every time I do, I'm going to write the editor. Again FWIW. Toni > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael K. Smith [SMTP:mksmith1@BELLSOUTH.NET] > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 5:37 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! > > No, I think it's basically a "them-or-us" issue.... No editor *ever* > sends > me proofs of indexes I've done, but I don't expect it, either. The > editor is > concerned with getting the whole project done in time and (as we all > know) > the indexer is the last person outside that office to handle the > material. > (I always have this mental image of a group of people standing around > in the > editorial office, tapping their toes, checking their watches, and > waiting > impatiently for UPS.) > > Sometimes (too often), even with talented and experienced production > people, > the space available for the index turns out to be not quite enough and > it > has to be cut, or thinned down, or condensed, or whatever -- and > they're not > going to have time to send it back to you for your okay. Besides, > you're not > even one of "them," no matter how good your working relationship is. > You're > hired help, you've done what they've paid you for, and now the work > belongs > to them, and they've got twenty other projects waiting to be worked > on. > > So I don't take it personally. :) > > Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services > mksmith1@bellsouth.net ICQ #15741870 > http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > It doesn't TAKE all kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds > > > |-----Original Message----- > |From: Indexer's Discussion Group > |[mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Diane Worden > |Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 9:09 AM > |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > |Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! > | > | > |Rachel's experience of finding her index has been (to be polite) > |tampered with > |happened to one of mine too that I was particularly proud of, > |major publisher > |and all. It is now worthless as a sample. Is this a frequent result > of not > |establishing better relationships with production people or what? > | Diane in Kazoo > | ------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC1F.6FE24F10 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is just a thought from a = wannabee indexer, but perhaps a campaign to potential readers to = inundate the publisher with complaints when the index is unusable and = severely interferes with the usability of the book. Probably naive and = impossible--just a random thought. FWIW  'Course I don't know how = you'd actually do this. Sigh. It really is more than a shame when the = potential of the book is severely curtailed by an unusable index. I = know I get very frustrated when I run across this as a reader. From now = on, every time I do, I'm going to write the editor. Again = FWIW.


Toni

    -----Original Message-----
    From:   Michael K. Smith = [SMTP:mksmith1@BELLSOUTH.NET]
    Sent:   Tuesday, October 20, 1998 5:37 PM
    To:     Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
    Subject:       = Re: extreme arrrrgh!!!

    No, I think it's = basically a "them-or-us" issue....  No editor *ever* = sends
    me proofs of = indexes I've done, but I don't expect it, either. The editor is
    concerned with = getting the whole project done in time and (as we all know)
    the indexer is the = last person outside that office to handle the material.
    (I always have this = mental image of a group of people standing around in the
    editorial office, = tapping their toes, checking their watches, and waiting
    impatiently for = UPS.)

    Sometimes (too = often), even with talented and experienced production people,
    the space available = for the index turns out to be not quite enough and it
    has to be cut, or = thinned down, or condensed, or whatever -- and they're not
    going to have time = to send it back to you for your okay. Besides, you're not
    even one of = "them," no matter how good your working relationship is. = You're
    hired help, you've = done what they've paid you for, and now the work belongs
    to them, and = they've got twenty other projects waiting to be worked on.

    So I don't take it = personally.  :)

    Michael K. = Smith           Smith = Editorial Services
    mksmith1@bellsouth.net      = ;          ICQ = #15741870
    http://members.tripod.com/~smith_editorial/ses.html
     ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    It doesn't TAKE all = kinds -- we just HAVE all kinds


    |-----Original = Message-----
    |From: Indexer's = Discussion Group
    |[
    mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On = Behalf Of Diane Worden
    |Sent: Tuesday, = October 20, 1998 9:09 AM
    |To: Multiple = recipients of list INDEX-L
    |Subject: Re: = extreme arrrrgh!!!
    |
    |
    |Rachel's = experience of finding her index has been (to be polite)
    |tampered = with
    |happened to one of = mine too that I was particularly proud of,
    |major = publisher
    |and all. It is now = worthless as a sample. Is this a frequent result of not
    |establishing = better relationships with production people or what?
    |     Diane in Kazoo
    |

------ =_NextPart_001_01BDFC1F.6FE24F10-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:50:16 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! The message <199810192321.AAA06416@irwell.zetnet.co.uk> from Rachel Rice contains these words: > Oh man, I just received a copy of a book I indexed, and there are whole > entries deleted from it, so that all that info is now lost, and furthermore > there are now cross refs to those now non-existent entries. I'd be equally annoyed, if that ever happened to me! When submitting a quotation, I habitually add a "condition of contract" to the effect that whatever I deliver to the client shouldn't be changed except by me or with my agreement. No one's objected to the clause so far, and, touch wood, no one's transgressed either. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:36:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes The problem is especially tough with work-for-hire jobs, because even when you have a contract or confirmation letter stating that the index corrections should be cleared with the indexer, it is hard to enforce. (When you hold the copyright, you might have more leverage, although you are still subject to the editor's or production manager's decision to send or not.) Usually the indexer has little recourse after the book has gone to the printer. I have tried sending a letter to the editor with an edited index to be kept on file, should the book be reprinted. That's about the only recourse after the fact that I have felt was truly useful. (Crying into our pillows about those lovely indexes that never see the light of day seems kinda pointless.) I'm certainly not opposed to our trying to educate editors and production managers about the value of having the indexer scrutinize the changes made, but I am a realist about how effective we can be, given the tightness of most deadlines in the contemporary publishing environment. What might be helpful is to have an ASI- and SI-sanctioned brochure or flyer to include with each job, stating the facts about why the index proof should be sent to the indexer before the film heads to the printer. (Presumably clarifying the difference between work-for-hire jobs and indexer-held copyrighted ones.) This would be very do-able, as a master copy could be distributed to ASI and SI members via Web pages, in the society newsletters (much as the original sample contract was years ago), or through chapter reps. Each person could then photocopy as many as needed, to be included in their index bundles. I've always hoped that ASI would develop a series of "fact sheets" that indexers could distribute, so perhaps we have identified the first one we need to write. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes I think that nothing but the pared down index would ever be printed. Space is ALWAYS an issue, and anything that can be done to reduce printing costs will be done. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne Day [SMTP:ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:34 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Preventing mangling of indexes > > I just had another idea, but you experienced indexers can tell me whether > or > not it's realistic. Since index-mangling by typesetters/production people > seems to be such a big problem, what if the indexer submits either 1) two > versions of the index, one being the "ideal" index and the other a > slightly > pared down version and labelled as such, or 2) straightforward directions > as > to which parts of the index should be cut first if space is a problem? I > don't think either would add a lot of time to the indexing process but > might > prevent the mangling in some cases. It sounds like many in-house > production > people just delete lines arbitrarily, so perhaps they'd be relieved to > have > a few directions to follow. > > What do you think? > > Anne Day ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes To Whom Is Concerned: I always send an index that meets the publisher's, or contractor's, requirements. Usually, I get line length (maximum allowed), customization requirements, etc., and I go from there. I see no reason to create extra work for myself (and for the client) to create a pared-down version especially when I am not making any extra money for the endeavor. I am not trying to be cold-hearted; I am a professional and do my job right the first time. I do not agonize over what happens to the index once it goes to the publisher/contractor. If he/she is happy, then I am happy. I have no jurisidiction over whether lines can be cut, nor do I expect any. As I stated before, when I am working on my own books, then I have complete control. When I am being hired freelance, then I am hired to do a job and I do it. I know indexers have been complaining that their index jobs have been mangled, but isn't that really the publisher's loss? The important thing should be did you do your part of the job the best you could? If the publisher, does not check back with you about taking lines and/or x-refs out, then it is the publisher's loss. We should educate him/her about this loss, but we cannot expect to be in the final phases of production if the publisher feels we are not needed. Rob fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: index importance; was extreme arrrrgh!!! Sherry wrote: > Another way is communication with book reviewers. Each of us reads a variety of newspapers and periodicals. How many of those publications mention the index when reviewing a book? What if each of us requested that information from the publication? A letter to the editor, for example, could comment on a book review and ask for index information. < This _would_ be a good idea, except that most reviewers receive bound galleys, which do not have the index in them because you're doing it while they're reviewing. Rachel, my condolences. Cheers, Deborah shawd@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:35:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <249761ec.362cb53e@aol.com> Wow. No indents? That's actually funny once you think about it. An index with no indents. How about the one I did for the now defunct Ventana in which a new editor didn't know not that articles, preps, etc. are to be ignored in the alpha sort, and went ahead and changed them all. Kari, that was one I dreaded a colleague seeing!! I have been having those same dread thoughts today. What if one of you guys saw that index and judged my by it. I do like the thought of whoever it was (sorry I forget who) who lightened up my attitude last night by saying it would eventually be used as a good "Don't do an index this way" example. I think I wouldn't really mind so much--as Rob F said, I know that what I sent was a good job (again, maybe not perfect, but good)--except that my name is in the book as indexer. Hence the arrrrgh and paranoia. The good news is that I sent an email to my contact and she's looking into it for me. Haven't been able to reach her yet and have to go out of town for a few days. More soon (someday), and THANKS to everyone for all your support in this time of Utter Despair. Rachel >In a message dated 10/20/98 11:58:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >WordenDex@AOL.COM writes: > >> Is this a frequent result of not >> establishing better relationships with production people or what? > >Being an in-house indexer, I have a cozy relationship with the production >people and I still have problems. The layout person removed all the >indentations last week because they were "all over the place," and she thought >a straight margin would be more attractive. She had done the same thing a year >ago and I had patiently explained what main headings, what subheadings are, >and the reasons for the indents. Moral: Always be on guard! >Nell Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:37:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Promotional cards Hi everyone, What might be helpful is to have an ASI- and SI-sanctioned brochure o= r flyer to include with each job, stating the facts about why the index proof= should be sent to the indexer before the film heads to the printer. (Presuma= bly clarifying the difference between work-for-hire jobs and indexer-held copyrighted ones.) This would be very do-able, as a master copy could= be distributed to ASI and SI members via Web pages, in the society news= letters (much as the original sample contract was years ago), or through chap= ter reps. Each person could then photocopy as many as needed, to be included in= their index bundles. I've always hoped that ASI would develop a series of "fact sheets" th= at indexers could distribute, so perhaps we have identified the first on= e we need to write. I think this is a good idea. The editing association I belong to has = just published a card measuring 8.5" x 3.66" (an 8.5" x 11" card cut into = 3 sections) titled "An Editor Can Help Your Business." On the front it= has the association logo and it says "Your image is important. You want t= o communicate effectively. Hire an editor." The back has "How an editor= can help" and "How to hire an editor" and then lists the association's na= tional address and local branches (there are only five). I would like to see ASI (in cooperation with all the other indexing associations... I belong to IASC) produce such a card explaining the = work of a professional indexer and perhaps mentioning the importance of invol= ving the indexer in the final editing process. Maybe those of us who are interested could buy these cards and includ= e them with our resum=E9s. Actually, maybe there could be two cards... one for resum=E9s (future= clients) and one for present clients to be given with the signed contract or s= ent with the bill. Different messages but both excellent promotional tool= s, I think. I'm not sure my clients have ever heard of IASC or ASI. I mention bot= h in my resum=E9 but this might be a good way of reminding them that I belong= to professional associations. Whereas the regular IASC and ASI brochures are aimed at informing and attracting new members, these cards could enhance our individual and collective profiles as professionals and could also increase business= by mentioning our directories and our Web sites. What do others think about this? Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca Beloeil, Quebec ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Plain text vs. HTML Just a quick question. I sent my first message in plain text but it appears, on my computer, with = signs at the end of every line. For future reference, how can I get rid of that? I now also know that plain text does not support French accents. My apologies. Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:52:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In a message dated 10/20/98 1:09:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nmbenton@AOL.COM writes: << Being an in-house indexer, I have a cozy relationship with the production people and I still have problems. The layout person removed all the indentations last week because they were "all over the place," and she thought a straight margin would be more attractive. She had done the same thing a year ago and I had patiently explained what main headings, what subheadings are, and the reasons for the indents. Moral: Always be on guard! Nell >> My first thought after reading this was: THAT is a neatnik! My second thought was: Layout people are graphical/spatial neatniks. Indexers are conceptual/organizational neatniks. And the two don't always translate. This layout person is definitely "challanged" [to be PC ;-) ] in the latter capacities. Aren't people interesting? and different? Too bad the result of a "collaboration" sometimes is a real mess. As Mike Smith has in his sig. -- It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds! Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:52:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Editors and Edits In a message dated 10/20/98 1:10:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JPerlman@AOL.COM writes: > To my way of thinking it has more to do with education than with > relationships. I think it points up an extreme lack of knowledge on the part > of the production staff and the editors in the publishing house. It is my > opinion that many (not all) of the production people we deal with do not > realize the importance of a good, professional index, have no knowledge of > what such an index is, and do not realize the level of skill the work of > indexing requires. They simply do not know how we work and what we do. > And yes, this is a sweeping generalization, my "take" on how we indexers are > perceived, generally. > A few years ago I was one of the majority of the population who had not given a thought to where an index came from -- but I find it amazing that professionals in the publishing industry don't have a better understanding. > I think this speaks to a general lack of understanding. What is missing is > Knowledge and Information. As a result, our work is often thought of as > more clerical than anything else. Why else would somebody want to have a > computer create an index (I still hear that from editors from time to time). Why > else would we have to fight so for a professional level rate for our work. Why > else would we have to make such an issue over seeing corrections/changes to > our work. Authors are accorded the courtesy of reviewing edits. Why not us? > Are we not professionals too? Apparently we aren't being viewed that way. > Many professions have this problem, so don't feel alone. How would you feel if, after becoming one of the 5% of veterinary school applicants who are accepted, someone told your mother, "Too bad she can't be a *real* doctor"?? Happened to a classmate of mine. And I can't tell you how often I have gotten the "how sweet" reaction when some dodo finds out I am a DVM. What do they think I do, play with kitties and puppies all day? OTOH, in an earlier life, when I had a no-brain, dull-as-dirt job in a biochemistry research lab, everybody was really impressed! Go figure. (paragraph snipped... ) > So ... we all have a lot of work to do. I find myself often in the role of > educator -- educating my client about what I do and how difficult it is, how > it requires intellectual analysis, is NOT clerical, etc. I think we all must > continue to be professionals and to stress the professional aspects of our > profession, as one of many freelancers in the publishing field. We really > bridge 2 fields, when we think of it. We are publishing professionals, AND > information retrieval professionals. This puts us square in the forefront of > a major, growing field, rather than in the background. Info retrieval is > where it's at. If you can't find it, it isn't there!! We are much needed, > and we need to tell people so. > (paragraph snipped... ) > > Janet Perlman > The bottom line, IMHO, is to do the work you want to do and don't worry too much about lack of appreciation *in principle*. That just gives you high blood pressure, etc. *In practice* we all have to deal with the above problems as best we can. Doing the education Janet talks about above is essential, but putting too much angst into it can be detrimental to one's health. This is *not* meant to imply that I think you shouldn't say "Aaarrrgh!" to the rest of us on Index-L when you get tromped -- that's called venting. ;-D Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:52:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: index importance; was extreme arrrrgh!!! In a message dated 10/20/98 2:15:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, indexer@ibm.net writes: > Working with publishers is one way to promote the indexing profession and > the importance of indexes. > > Another way is communication with book reviewers. Each of us reads a > variety of newspapers and periodicals. How many of those publications > mention the index when reviewing a book? What if each of us requested that > information from the publication? A letter to the editor, for example, > could comment on a book review and ask for index information. > Sounds like a great idea to me. If publishers knew the the index (or lack thereof) would likely be mentioned in reviews, that would give some "value enhancement" to indexes. I think I will make up a "template" letter that I can send to any publications I receive that have reviews for non-fiction books. After all, in most cases, I will not buy the book if it doesn't have a decent index. Maybe I can get some of my "reader" friends & family members to do the same. How much demand from the public would it take to actually get reviewers to put index info in the reviews? Could we generate enough letters to make a difference? (We probably need to form a PAC and get something legislated here. Look at what all those other minorities are accomplishing! Too bad we don't have the $$. ;-D) I am going to stop reading e-mail & get some sleep. I think my mind has really switched off when politics, in any form, seems attractive, even tongue-in- cheek. Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:25:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Checking proof In response to Barbara Cohen, who said: Like Janet, I think it's easier to index anonymously unless you know the client well enough to trust how your work will be handled after it leaves your office. On the other hand, I owuld love to see us all get behind this issue because it would be a relatively simple thing to accomplish and would provide better service for the readers, not to mention the clients. Perhaps someone could write an article for KeyWords about this, with some tips about how to get clients to comply?? Actually, I submitted an article to KeyWords earlier this week, and I have encouraged a member of the ASI Colorado Chapter to write an article as well. :-) BTW, my article was inspired by the panel discussion on The Editor/Indexer Relationship at this year's Society of Indexers annual conference in Tynemouth. The attendees at the SI conference were also very interested in having the opportunity to review page proofs. Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop (76620.456@compuserve.com) Lathrop Media Services Web site: http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:18:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Thomas P. Copley" Subject: ANNOUNCE> Growing Mindshare Workshop GROWING MINDSHARE WORKSHOP: OUTREACH FOR YOUR WEB SITE The 1990s have been a virtual gold rush period for Web site growth. Individuals, businesses and organizations have flocked by the millions to establish a presence on the Web. However, having a Web address is little or no guarantee that visitors will come, and even less so that they will ever return. Each site owner struggles to get _mindshare_. Mindshare is that ephemeral quality that causes Web surfers in large numbers to think of your site first when it comes to the content that you offer. Without mindshare a Web address is little more than a mining claim without the mine. The Growing Mindshare Workshop: Outreach for Your Web Site is a six week workshop conducted entirely by email and the World Wide Web (WWW). It will help you to achieve a favorable mindshare for your site. Visitors to your site are either there on a mission to find information that you offer, or else have arrived there accidentally. Both groups are important, but require different approaches in order to enhance mindshare. Serving the former requires careful structuring of your site in order to permit rapid access. Reaching the latter involves increasing the chances that random visitors will hit on your site again and again. This workshop will provide a hands-on opportunity to learn about specific strategies and methods for developing, improving, and maintaining mindshare. Topics that will be covered include: * Positioning your site for maximum advantage on search engines, portals and indices. Ethical versus questionable tactics. * Setting up tags using standardized approaches such as the Dublin Core. How to avoid index spamming. * Understanding how XML-based search engines work. Near-term and future potential will be explored. How to index site maps with Resource Description Framework (RDF). * Advancing mindshare through promotional activities. Advantages and disadvantages of display advertising, reciprocal links, affiliate programs, publicity, etc. * Gaining visibility for your information in an environment where content is increasingly being made open. To charge or not to charge, and if so how much or how little. * Making your Web site configurable and adaptable to changing needs through database publishing and effective interface design. * The ins and outs of transactions processing. Understanding credit card processing, micropayments, and electronic data interchange (EDI). * Analyzing server log statistics in order to maximize Web site effectiveness. The cost of the workshop is $35 US. ** How to Sign Up A six week session of the Growing Mindshare Workshop is scheduled to begin Monday, November 2, 1998 and will end Friday, December 11, 1998. To sign up for the Growing Mindshare Workshop, please send an email message to the address: majordomo@arlington.com and in the body of the message, place subscribe grow In order to gain maximum advantage of the Growing Mindshare Workshop, it will be necessary to have either an up-to-date version of Microsoft Internet Explorer or Netscape Navigator. Thomas P. Copley, Ph.D., has successfully taught several online courses. These include the Dynamic Duo Workshop (now underway), Tune in the Net Workshop, first offered in 1997, Make the Link Workshop, introduced in 1995, and the Go-pher-it Workshop, begun in 1994. He has been actively involved in online teaching for more than a decade, and has been a consultant to Apple Computer, Inc. He is also one of the founders of the Electronic University, and has been on the faculty of Antioch College in Yellow Springs, Ohio, and Washington State University. He is co-moderator of the online-ed mailing list. ** NOTE: While Make the Link, Tune In the Net, and Dynamic Duo Workshops are not prerequisites for the Growing Mindshare Workshop (GMW), all three provide complementary information that may also be of interest to many participants in GMW. A discounted price for GMW is available to past participants in these workshops, or to those who now wish to take them. ________________________________________________________________ THOMAS P. COPLEY tcopley@arlington.com Growing Mindshare Workshop www.bearfountain.com/arlington/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:01:46 +0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: No doubt we should educate potential clients, but if they read Judith Butcher's 'Copy-editing' they should already be educated. There is a chapter on indexes which discusses checking cross-references among other things. Also, a course on copy-editing I attended at Book House covered indexes. In my innocence I might suppose proper treatment of indexes was part of the copy-editing business. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:44:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! Wow, this one blows me away. I assume that in spite of her position, this layout person has never actually USED an index? Iris Nell Benton wrote: > > > Being an in-house indexer, I have a cozy relationship with the production > people and I still have problems. The layout person removed all the > indentations last week because they were "all over the place," and she thought > a straight margin would be more attractive. She had done the same thing a year > ago and I had patiently explained what main headings, what subheadings are, > and the reasons for the indents. Moral: Always be on guard! > Nell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 05:46:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes In-Reply-To: <199810202134.OAA03864@decibel.electriciti.com> I am really under the gun. I am finishing the second index for a two-volume work. The contributed-chapter works went into production prematurely because the editorial department just logs in chapters and sends books to production, ready or not. Editorial gets praised for not holding up manuscripts and apparently thinks the less time a ms is in their department--the less blame they get for problems. The folks working in editorial often don't know or care about such basics as whether a call-out is a table or a figure, permissions, and that there really is a problem if the academic editor has a chapter 7, chapter 8a, chapter 8b, chapter 9, and so on. Folks in production get the garbage dumped on them and get expected to to meet sometimes unrealistic deadlines under the best of circumstances. Life just is not always fair. But, I flipped when Windows froze and 4 indexed chapters were gone after the re-boot (fortunately they were still on a saved floppy). The person pushing me to finish just sent an email of tremendous support. Maybe I'm too stressed to make sense of this, but I do encourage indexers to report problems to production editors. Production often needs to document problems to their superiors--who may [and may not] work to correct problems. But, I am convinced that maintaining communication is vital. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes I think these will be my last two comments on this topic, as I don't wish to extend its life beyond uesfulness. First, concerning the idea that a publisher would ALWAYS use the shorter version of the index, if given a choice, because "anything that can be done to reduce printing costs will be done..." Books are printed in "forms" of usually 16 or 32 pages. When a publisher has, say, 8 pages allotted for the index, and the indexer submits an 8-page index as well as a pared-down 6-page version, the publisher would have no reason to use the smaller one. If the extra 2 pages are not filled by the index, they will be blank. A minute amount of ink might be saved but this cost would not be passed on to the publisher. The cost of paper is usually the largest printing cost, so blank pages are basically equal in cost to printed ones. Second, you may think me naive or idealistic, but I'm confused by some indexers' declarations that the quality of the printed index is not their concern. True, we're basically doing this for the money, not fame and glory, but I feel that a ruined index is an utter waste of my time and resources if it isn't useful, even though I got paid. In some cases, all of the AUTHOR'S time was wasted also if his or her information is lost due to a malforned index. It's more than just an ecomonic loss to the publisher... why produce something if it isn't used? Or are we only working to pay the bills? This isn't just perfectionism or inflated ego on the part of the indexer (me), it's a commitment to making my work really "matter." If I have to spend an unpaid hour on an index to possible insure that it is ultimately useful, I will! Otherwise I will have wasted my time, the author's, the publisher's, and that of ALL the people who contributed to the book. True, we don't have total control, but we should exercise what control we do have. That's it, thanks for listening. Anne > ---------- > From: Wright, Sharon F. > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:48 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes > > I think that nothing but the pared down index would ever be printed. > Space > is ALWAYS an issue, and anything that can be done to reduce printing costs > will be done. > > -- Sharon W. > Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anne Day [SMTP:ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:34 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Preventing mangling of indexes > > > > I just had another idea, but you experienced indexers can tell me > whether > > or > > not it's realistic. Since index-mangling by typesetters/production > people > > seems to be such a big problem, what if the indexer submits either 1) > two > > versions of the index, one being the "ideal" index and the other a > > slightly > > pared down version and labelled as such, or 2) straightforward > directions > > as > > to which parts of the index should be cut first if space is a problem? I > > don't think either would add a lot of time to the indexing process but > > might > > prevent the mangling in some cases. It sounds like many in-house > > production > > people just delete lines arbitrarily, so perhaps they'd be relieved to > > have > > a few directions to follow. > > > > What do you think? > > > > Anne Day > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: [index-l] extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810201722.NAA23433@jane.penn.com> Janet Perlman wrote: ... we have to assert ourselves about professionalism. We're not "just" hired help. We have to act as if our work is important, and the index is important. I know about schedules and working with a client when they are in a major crunch. Sometimes you just have to deal with the deadline schedule and leave the education to another time. Timing is everything. Education may have to take place after that, when a production [editor] is out of "crunch mode" and can listen and think about what you're saying. But ..... the education needs to be done. We have to explain that the index is important. This is about quality -- the quality of the book as a whole. It isn't only about speed. IF production editors were of the belief that the quality of the index would sell a book better ( or cause it *not* to sell), and IF sales figures were traceable back to an index and their decisions about the indexes, they'd sing a different tune. I still say education about the value of an index would help a lot. Production/project editors don't have any power; they just have responsibilities. Even if they understand perfectly the value of an accurate index they are not in a position to do any more than beg for more time, which, in context, makes them whiners, seeming to beg for special favors. I completed my career as an employee by working as a project editor for a medical publisher. I was not supposed to spend time actually editing myself, despite the fact that several freelance editors would be working on a single book and their work was never consistent. Amount of time allotted for indexing depended totally on the schedule, set by the production department on orders of acquisition editors and publisher. No one could be sure that the Production Department would implement corrections; that depended on budget and schedule. Editors were not informed as to whether corrections were made. Acquisitions editors and publisher talked about finding quality manuscripts, and about their high publishing standards, but that was only for outside consumption. They didn't look for good material, and schedules were totally a matter of expedience. Publishing in time for fall society meetings was the most important factor in their schedule-making, followed by inventory/tax considerations. I believe that their business depended on a certain level of inadequacy in every book they published; otherwise how to justify the next year's revision or the replacement of that book by another? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:14:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: [index-l] extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810201752.NAA31652@jane.penn.com> Moira wrote: >I suppose, if you see yourself as `hired help', then that is how you >deserve to be treated. ________________ I understood the original statement as an attempt to understand why editors treat indexers as they do, not as evidence that indexers are doormats. I was once an inhouse project editor, and I was convinced that the publisher regarded ME merely as hired help--but I struggled against arbitrary treatment of freelancers, increased hours for decreased pay, sloppy production, and arbitrary speed requirements. I was not a doormat. The publisher liked to tell us about how copyeditors had once been required to stand at their desks to do their work; he'd get a wistful look in his eyes and say, Maybe we should bring that back. It was a joke, sure, but he also wanted to make sure we remembered who called the shots. My point is that we must recognize that our professional pride does not in itself represent power. Thinking positively will not yield us all incomes above $36,000 per year. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:42:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Amundson Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes In-Reply-To: <199810202037.QAA15183@jane.penn.com> Barbara E. Cohen wrote: >What might be helpful is to have an ASI- and SI-sanctioned brochure or flyer >to include with each job, stating the facts about why the index proof should >be sent to the indexer before the film heads to the printer. (Presumably >clarifying the difference between work-for-hire jobs and indexer-held >copyrighted ones.) This would be very do-able, as a master copy could be >distributed to ASI and SI members via Web pages, in the society newsletters >(much as the original sample contract was years ago), or through chapter reps. >Each person could then photocopy as many as needed, to be included in their >index bundles. > >I've always hoped that ASI would develop a series of "fact sheets" that >indexers could distribute, so perhaps we have identified the first one we need >to write. ________________ Publishers don't as a rule educate their project editors, and some proje ct editors might appreciate the information (once), but publishers who slash indexes already know they're screwing them up. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:36:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes Just a clarification, then, I agree, we can put this issue to rest. I think we're talking about too many variables. Therefore, I shouldn't have issued such a broad statement ("anything that can be done to reduce printing costs will."). If we are talking about the difference between a 6 page and an 8 page index, I agree-- no publisher is going to care. But if we are talking about the difference between a 50 page index and a 20 page index, they will, and that's not at all unusual in my field. (Of course, one of our challenges is frequently to adjust our page count to fit within a 1,600 page volume limit, so I'm used to dealing with a very different scale!) As for the page count of the "forms," I'm not sure that that is universally true. I think it depends on type of printing press, type of binding, etc. For stitched bound volumes, I know this is correct, but for softbound pubs, I'm not sure. Perhaps someone with more press experience can answer that. -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne Day [SMTP:ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 9:28 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes > > I think these will be my last two comments on this topic, as I don't wish > to > extend its life beyond uesfulness. > > First, concerning the idea that a publisher would ALWAYS use the shorter > version of the index, if given a choice, because "anything that can be > done > to reduce printing costs will be done..." > Books are printed in "forms" of usually 16 or 32 pages. When a publisher > has, say, 8 pages allotted for the index, and the indexer submits an > 8-page > index as well as a pared-down 6-page version, the publisher would have no > reason to use the smaller one. If the extra 2 pages are not filled by the > index, they will be blank. A minute amount of ink might be saved but this > cost would not be passed on to the publisher. The cost of paper is usually > the largest printing cost, so blank pages are basically equal in cost to > printed ones. > > Second, you may think me naive or idealistic, but I'm confused by some > indexers' declarations that the quality of the printed index is not their > concern. True, we're basically doing this for the money, not fame and > glory, > but I feel that a ruined index is an utter waste of my time and resources > if > it isn't useful, even though I got paid. In some cases, all of the > AUTHOR'S > time was wasted also if his or her information is lost due to a malforned > index. It's more than just an ecomonic loss to the publisher... why > produce > something if it isn't used? Or are we only working to pay the bills? > This > isn't just perfectionism or inflated ego on the part of the indexer (me), > it's a commitment to making my work really "matter." If I have to spend an > unpaid hour on an index to possible insure that it is ultimately useful, I > will! Otherwise I will have wasted my time, the author's, the publisher's, > and that of ALL the people who contributed to the book. True, we don't > have total control, but we should exercise what control we do have. > > That's it, thanks for listening. > Anne > > > ---------- > > From: Wright, Sharon F. > > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:48 PM > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes > > > > I think that nothing but the pared down index would ever be printed. > > Space > > is ALWAYS an issue, and anything that can be done to reduce printing > costs > > will be done. > > > > -- Sharon W. > > Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Anne Day [SMTP:ADay@PROFESSIONALJEWELER.COM] > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:34 PM > > > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > > > Subject: Preventing mangling of indexes > > > > > > I just had another idea, but you experienced indexers can tell me > > whether > > > or > > > not it's realistic. Since index-mangling by typesetters/production > > people > > > seems to be such a big problem, what if the indexer submits either 1) > > two > > > versions of the index, one being the "ideal" index and the other a > > > slightly > > > pared down version and labelled as such, or 2) straightforward > > directions > > > as > > > to which parts of the index should be cut first if space is a problem? > I > > > don't think either would add a lot of time to the indexing process but > > > might > > > prevent the mangling in some cases. It sounds like many in-house > > > production > > > people just delete lines arbitrarily, so perhaps they'd be relieved to > > > have > > > a few directions to follow. > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Anne Day > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:17:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes Hi Anne, I don't think that indexers who say that they are willing to let their indexes be mangled are okay about it. Just pragmatic. Let's not accuse anyone of being in the business for the filthy lucre. Since there isn't any! :) Some of us just try to fight the battles we think we can win, and obviously mangled indexes appear to be a battle most of us have learned to live with, like impossible deadlines and low respect for our work. On the whole, I'd be hard pressed to believe that anyone LIKES any of these practices. But on a day-to-day basis, one does learn to prioritize one's agonies. Otherwise, the stress would wipe out more indexers than it does. I am VERY interested to see how much mail this topic has generated, and Lori says she has submitted an article to KeyWords about this issue, so let's move from complaining about what we can't change (and making disparaging remarks about our more practical or more defeated colleagues) to changing what we can. From my soapbox, Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:14:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah Huse Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of Indexes An earlier message said that no publisher would care about the difference between a 6 and an 8 page index. I often work to strict space limitations and they do indeed care about the difference. If the total number of index lines is less than 800, two pages is a big difference. Working to space limitations is the hardest part of my indexing task. Hannah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:23:28 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sven Wair Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of indexes > Wright, Sharon F. wrote: > As for the page count of the "forms," I'm not sure that that is universally > true. I think it depends on type of printing press, type of binding, etc. > For stitched bound volumes, I know this is correct, but for softbound pubs, > I'm not sure. Perhaps someone with more press experience can answer that. > I used to work for a company that prepared plates for book printing. A typical signature, or form, would be of 32pp, printed either one or two sigs to a sheet. As a large proportion of books do not fit a format of multiples of 32pp, signatures of 16pp are common. These are printed on the same sheet size, but using only one plate, which is turned over (either 'print-and-turn' or 'print-and-tumble'). Only half the run of sheets of paper is then used. Also 8pp sigs are not uncommon, printed either 4 to a sheet, or on smaller sheets on a different press. 4pp sigs are not unheard of. It is all a matter of what the production department thinks that it is important to get in the book. By using combinations of these different sig sizes, most books have very few blank pages, whatever their extent. Sven M. Wair 17, Cedars Road, Colchester, Essex, CO2 7BS. Fax & Tel: 01206 563 824 email: svwa@globalnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:08:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: extreme arrrrgh!!! In-Reply-To: <199810202314.QAA01636@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 03:35 PM 10/20/98 -0400, Rachel wrote: >Wow. No indents? That's actually funny once you think about it. An index >with no indents. Hi Rachel, Sorry to be chiming in late with my empathy here, but ooooh how do I empathize!!!!!!!!!!!!! You may remember when a publisher mangled one of my indexes by publishing it without indents. The book was bought by ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL INDEXER who, of course, found the index practically useless!!!! And she mentioned it on Index-L, describing the book in enough detail that I realized that it probably was my index (my name wasn't in the book, thank goodness). ;-D I was so mortified about what happened that I posted a message here saying that it sounded like it was one of my own indexes (thus making it public that it was me), but that it certainly had indents when I sent the file to the publisher. I could have kept quiet about it and no one would have known that I was the indexer, but I wanted to try to make things right for her and let everyone know that it wasn't my fault in case word ever got out that it was indeed my index. ;-D She and I exchanged private emails and phone calls in which I offered to send her my original index file so that she'd have a usable index to go with the book. Also, I called the publisher and unsuccessfully tried to get them to give her her money back for the book. However, in response to my telling them that my professional reputation was at stake, the publisher did post an apology here on Index-L, salvaging my reputation. Then, as a dramatic codicil to this entire saga, I had my first heart attack the next day (actually, I was starting into it the day I was talking to the other indexer and the publisher on the phone) and the poor indexer thought she was the cause of it!!!! Actually, now in retrospect, we can laugh about the whole thing. ;-D >How about the one I did for the now defunct Ventana in which a new editor >didn't know not that articles, preps, etc. are to be ignored in the alpha >sort, and went ahead and changed them all. This happened to me too with the first index I did for a software company client. The managing editor sent me a marked up copy of my index indicating how she had re-sorted all of those particular entries. It was too late for that particular index, but I explained standard indexing practice regarding ignoring prepositions and articles in the sort order and we went on to have a terrific client-indexer relationship over the years. Fortunately, that first manual with the mangled sort order did not contain my name as indexer. In later manuals, they started including the names of everyone who worked on the product, including the documentation staff and indexer. But, by that point, I trusted them not to do bad things to my indexes (excepting an admittedly funny practical joke they inserted into one of them). ;-D The only concern I have now is that they redo some of my indexes inhouse for manuals accompanying later versions of their products. (They now do most of their indexes inhouse, retaining me to do the indexes to manuals for their flagship products.) I found this out by buying the latest version of one of their products and recognized the index as a ...ahem... mutated version of one of mine. I have to dig the manual out to see whether my name is in it (which I didn't think to check when I saw the index). Good luck on straightening this out with the publisher (at least for future indexes)! As others have said here, I don't insist on having my name listed as indexer in books and manuals (though some publishers do it anyway) because of the potential for having the index mangled once it leaves my hands. Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:16:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Beginner rates (WARNING: looong and ranty) In-Reply-To: <199810200350.UAA09405@mail-gw3.pacbell.net> At 09:46 PM 10/19/98 -0500, Meredith wrote: >Hello Everyone, >I am a new indexer in New Orleans and would like to contact any = >established indexers working in or around the >New Orleans area. > >I am at a loss as to the going rates for indexing. As beginner I realize = >that I would need to charge at the low end of the scale but where does = >that scale start? Oh dear, Meredith! Time for my periodic rant about "beginners' rates". ;-D (Hmmmm. No one else posted anything in response to this. Were you all waiting for my annual rant on the subject? Well, I had to write an entirely new one for this occasion, the old one having disappeared two computers ago. See what you made me do? ;-D) I'm not dumping on you, Meredith, by any means. In fact, please take this as encouragement, support, and all kinds of warm, fuzzy things that'll help you get started in our profession at a livable income. Don't feel that just because you are a beginner that you need to charge "beginners' rates". Surely you intend to submit a quality product from the very beginning of your indexing career, not a "beginner's index". I know it requires a bit of chutzpah to do this, but don't even think of yourself as a beginner. You are a professional indexer (or WILL be before hanging out your shingle). Period. After all, do doctors just starting out in private practice charge less because they are "beginners"? No indeed. And we're providing a product (as well as a service) with measurable parameters of quality, for crying out loud. Either it works or it doesn't (without intentionally trying to start however interesting a discussion about indexes as art--which they also are). So what if you haven't done an index for pay yet? You've done several practice indexes that you are very proud of, haven't you? If not, I strongly urge you to do some. Keep at it until you've done a few that you are sure will rival the best that you have seen in quality. Not only will they help you to truly start thinking of yourself as an indexer (not a "beginner"), but you'll eventually generate indexes that you can use as samples in the process. See below.) Another thing you can do in preparation for those first encounters with prospective clients is consider what value for the dollar, in addition to providing a high-quality index, can you give a client (e.g., ontime delivery, formatted to specifications, and anything else you can think of). The purpose of this preparatory mental exercise is to convince yourself that you will be providing a truly valuable service and product that is worth every penny that you'll be asking for. Also, you can use these as talking points with prospective clients. Now, having done the practice/sample indexes, stand in front of the mirror and say five times, "I am (resounding mental chorus echoing "I AM" in background) AN INDEXER." (Best done to the beat of "I AM ...I am... SOMEBODY... somebody" to really get the juices flowing.) After you're able to do this without blushing or giggling, you are then ready to quote a decent rate to a prospective client without blushing (out loud) or giggling. ;-D What's the worst thing that the prospective client can do? Tell you that you've quoted too high a rate or something to that effect, eh? I seriously doubt that they'll call you names, scream at you, or slam the phone down in your ear. (If they do, you don't want to work for them anyway, so hang up and move on. ;-D) Well, maybe, it'll be rather awful if they simply start to giggle or worse break out in thigh-slapping guffaws at the ridiculously high rate you quoted. (But you won't be exorbitant because you're going to check ASI's rate survey first.) OK, so then you say it's negotiable and start negotiating downward. But, you don't even mention rates until after you've offered to send them a sample or two of your work. (Do it early in the conversation before they have a chance to bring it up.) If you haven't been able to build up an impressive bibliography of indexes yet (I hate resumes because we're businesspeople showing people what we can do, not job applicants giving a life history), you don't even want the Rates Discussion to begin until after you've sent them your sample index or at least offered to. Note that you haven't even mentioned that you're a beginner in all of this. Not mentioning it is NOT hiding material information from the prospect. It is totally IRRELEVANT because you're going to provide a quality product, right? Important: I'm *not* telling you to lie to a prospective client. Never do that as it insidiously poisons the potential relationship from the outset. But, if they ask you about other clients, you can tell them that you are in the process of starting your indexing business and therefore do not have other clients yet, but DO have samples of your work you'd like to send them. (Remind them of what you DO have to offer.) However, by having offered to send the sample indexes (which you can say are "unpublished", if asked) early in the conversation, you may completely forestall any discussion of "other clients", "years of experience", etc. altogether. After all, if you have samples to send, then obviously you've done indexes. You're not a One-Day Wonder who just read a Money magazine article about making $50k/year in indexing and immediately hung out your shingle. Also, if they do accept your offer to send samples, they then are forced to judge you as an indexer based upon those samples. Being that those samples are absolutely stellar, when you have your followup conversation, they are looking at you in awe as a real PRO!! ;-D (It should be obvious by now that I don't think folks should hang out their shingles as indexers until they've really honed their skills at this profession. Practice, practice, practice...) It is quite reasonable to ask for references (other clients) to determine whether a prospective indexer is on time, etc. But often when they've looked over a sample index, they don't ask for references. If they do, tell them truthfully that you haven't yet developed a client base yet (still don't refer to yourself as a "beginner"), but then immediately ask them what they thought of your sample index, moving them back to something that really impressed them. OTOH, it's probably a good idea to have references ready from other life experiences who will establish that you are reliable, can meet deadlines, are trustworthy, etc. and present them to that effect if asked for references. Believe me, I had the chutzpah when starting out, to ask for $4/page on my first prospect and got it. (I've worked on subsequent projects for lower, but $3/page has always been my absolute bottom, while my top figure has increased over the years.) Yes, there was a shocked moment of silence when I quoted that rate. ;-D But it was because their previous indexers had been working for them for less. (Note: I kept control of the conversation so that it never got around to those icky questions that could reveal that I was a "beginner". And I did have samples to send! When you know your samples are good, you can ask for what you feel you are ENTITLED to for the quality of your work without feeling apologetic, which comes through in your voice. So actually, "chutzpah" is not totally accurate here. We're talking about just being realistic with oneself. ;-D) Anyway, when the shocked silence continued a bit longer than I was comfortable with, I said, "Well we could negotiate this if it exceeds your budget." Some folks don't like to admit to having a small budget, so they quickly respond, "Oh, no! That's fine!", preferring to cut corners elsewhere than admit that. ;-D If they don't mind admitting to having an unreasonably small budget for indexing, then you begin negotiating. But whenever you negotiate, you need to have somewhere from which you can negotiate downward to something that you will still feel reasonably comfortable with. I read somewhere that before entering into negotiations about anything (not just rates or fees) that you need to establish for yourself what you'd really like to have (within near reason). Then establish a figure (or set of conditions) below which you absolutely refuse to go, that less would be unacceptable. (The other party, OTOH, also has a high and a low figure. When the two of you meet in the middle, it's win-win, which is why bargaining is so much fun.) Unacceptable should be anything lower than the lower-end of the rate survey, IMHO. First of all, "beginners rates" do a disservice to our entire profession. Not only does it keep most of us scrambling trying to make a living at this profession, but it devalues the profession and the importance of our service/product. Indexes are too valuable that those of us who create them should be forced to pull allnighters for weeks on end to make a living at producing them!!!! (I know that's too tortured a sentence to ever serve as a rallying cry.) There is a concept called "perceived value" associated with marketing, I think. If something is priced too inexpensively, it's considered to be of lesser value, regardless of what it's true value is. So, if you quote "beginners' rates", you're subtly devaluing what you have to offer in the others' eyes. Secondly, if you do get a client at "beginners' rates", you'll always be "behind" with them in eventually trying to get your rates up to standard levels. So, you do yourself a disservice as well. Whew! I went on for even longer than earlier versions of this annual post did. But I hope something in these ramblings will help you and others embarking on indexing careers get paid as the professionals you are from Day One. Warm wishes for your success!!!!!! Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:45:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Beginner rates (WARNING: looong and ranty) In-Reply-To: <199810211927.PAA12763@camel10.mindspring.com> At 12:16 PM 10/21/98 -0700, Lynn wrote: > >Oh dear, Meredith! Time for my periodic rant about "beginners' rates". ;-D >(Hmmmm. No one else posted anything in response to this. Were you all >waiting for my annual rant on the subject? Actually, I was. Really. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:17:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Preventing mangling of Indexes In-Reply-To: <199810211715.KAA11700@mail-gw5.pacbell.net> At 01:14 PM 10/21/98 EDT, Hannah wrote: >An earlier message said that no publisher would care about the difference >between a 6 and an 8 page index. I often work to strict space limitations and >they do indeed care about the difference. If the total number of index lines >is less than 800, two pages is a big difference. Working to space limitations >is the hardest part of my indexing task. Hi Hannah, I think that publishers don't care about the difference between 6 or 8 pages (to use your example) when their books aren't bound into signatures of a given size. For example, I've yet to have a software company client (whose manuals aren't bound into signatures) give me a space limitation for an index, but with traditional book publishers it's almost always the case. What's left over in the signature is what's allotted for the index, regardless of the size of the book and what size index it *should* have. (OTOH, I actually had a publisher ask me to create as large an index as possible to fill up a 32-page signature where they had only used one or two pages. The book was less than 200 pages. Talk about triple and quadruple posting! "Let's see how many other permutations of this concept we can come up with." Even so, I think they had to print the index in 14 or 16 pt type, single-column. ;-D) In your case, where the publisher is very concerned, it may be that they need leeway to account for differences between what you submit and what they actually print in font sizes, margins, letter headings, etc. to avoid exceeding what's available in the signature containing the index. I used to run into this problem with one publisher until I asked them the actual size of the image area they use on a page. Fortunately, we could play with font size and number of columns across. I then set up a template in Word specifically for their indexes with the correct page, margin, and gutter sizes. That way, when I was given only 10 pages for the index to a highly technical, 700-page book, I was able to shoehorn it in by going down to 7 pts, three-columns across. (Don't try this at home, boys and girls. I found a copy of the book in a store and needed a magnifying glass to read the entries. ;-D) I also created a macro in Word where I could take an .RTF file from Macrex and format it within seconds to see how well the index was staying within the page allotment. Being that I delivered my indexes to them as Word files, it was an easy matter for them to import my files into their DTP software with all paragraph styles intact, leaving us all happy campers. Anyway, working with your clients regarding the above measurements may make life just a bit easier on both ends. (You may have to speak directly with their production people to accomplish this.) There may be some flexibility on their end regarding font sizes and number of columns. (BTW, three columns becomes problematical unless you go way down in font size to prevent excessive rollovers.) If anyone follows this suggestion, I strongly recommend leaving at least one column empty at the end of the index to stay on the safe side. As a postscript, it happened to be this same publisher who mangled one of my indexes by printing it without indentations. (See my post to the "Extreme aargh" thread.) However, this happened to be the work of a production editor who was extremely incompetent and was fired not long afterwards for this and other fiascos, so I was told by the editor I usually worked with there. So nothing is truly fail-safe. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:06:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Debra Lindblom Subject: Thank you, for beginner rates info In a message dated 10/21/98 2:28:02 PM EST, techndex@PACBELL.NET writes: << Whew! I went on for even longer than earlier versions of this annual post did. But I hope something in these ramblings will help you and others embarking on indexing careers get paid as the professionals you are from Day One. Warm wishes for your success!!!!!! Lynn >> Thank you, Lynn. You helped me. Debbie Lindblom