Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9904E" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:11:29 EDT Reply-To: BECohen653@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Interesting bid In figuring out a reasonable per-page or per-entry rate for a large project: One consideration on a large job (whether that is 40 entries a page or 150) is that your per-page/per-entry overhead should be much lower, assuming that you are going to be working for a long time on this one project. In other words, you should have some fewer "variable" overhead costs associated with taking on long-term work (only one editor to chat with, as opposed to three or four, only one package to mail, only one disk to send, only one bill to prepare--you get the idea). Hence you can afford a somewhat lower per-entry or per-page rate. (One good argument for knowing just what it costs you to sit at your desk each day and where every penny goes.) Of course, your "fixed" expenses (health insurance, computer maintenance) are not any lower. But it does theoretically take less time and materials to manage one large job than four smaller ones of equal number of entries/pages. (Just for starters, the paperwork fits into 25% of the number of file folders, so you have a 75% savings in that cost!) Unfortunately, the problems one runs into in a large project often offset the pleasure of working long-term on a single project, at least in my own experience. However, I have heard diametrically opposed opinions from indexers who truly prefer long-term contracts. I think for a project like this, part of what you have to access is your own ability to work long-term on a single subject. For myself, I've take on dense projects ("slow page turners" is how I think of them) only when the books are on topics I truly love. Otherwise, I have to face living with a topic I dislike for far longer than I like. Just my two cents' worth. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:26:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara J. Garten" Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry eJ8+IgUEAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAPwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES AQC/MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLaAAAAAAAALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSESAQC/ MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLbAAAQAAAA/DHo86X90hGY6ABgCJ0hEhUAAABTdWJqZWN0IGFy ZWEgSW5xdWlyeQAAAEAAMgCgqkUb+JG+AQMANgAAAAAAAgFDAAEAAABbAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZ nW4A3QEPVAIAAAEAQXV0b21hdGljIGRpZ2VzdCBwcm9jZXNzb3IAU01UUABMSVNUU0VSVkBCSU5H Vk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAeAEQAAQAAABsAAABBdXRvbWF0aWMgZGlnZXN0IHByb2Nl c3NvcgAAHgBJAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFMAAEAAABaAAAAAAAA AIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAEASW5kZXhlcidzIERpc2N1c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAU01UUABJTkRF WC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAAeAE0AAQAAABsAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cAAAQABOAED/jk/Mkb4BQABVAICAQJX1kb4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVj dCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb6Ry5otp28Btf1wEdKKsAAQSyL9iQALIEZE AB4AcgABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHMAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgB0AAEAAAAeAAAAUmVjaXBpZW50cyBv ZiBJTkRFWC1MIGRpZ2VzdHMAAAALAAgMAAAAAAIBHQwBAAAAGwAAAFNNVFA6QkdBUlRFTkBFQVJU SExJTksuTkVUAAALAAEOAQAAAAsAHw4BAAAAHgABEAEAAAAVAAAATWVzc2FnZSB3YXMgcmVhZCBv bjoAAAAAAwAGEAAAAAADAAcQAAAAAB4ACBABAAAAAgAAAAQAAAADABAQiOn6AAMAERDwQPsAAgH4 DwEAAAAQAAAAJWQ+L2yM0hGOpQCAyOKxxQIB+g8BAAAAEAAAACVkPi9sjNIRjqUAgMjiscUCAfsP AQAAAIkAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEA qgA32W4AAABDOlxXSU5OVFxQcm9maWxlc1xBZG1pbmlzdHJhdG9yXEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIERhdGFc TWljcm9zb2Z0XE91dGxvb2tcTWFpbEJhcmIucHN0AAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAA ADEAAAAwMDAwMDAwMDI1NjQzRTJGNkM4Q0QyMTE4RUE1MDA4MEM4RTJCMUM1ODRDMDREMDAAAAAA ajM= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 23:36:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Anglican saints In-Reply-To: <199904290317.WAA12899@shooter.bluemarble.net> Please excuse any clumsy wording on my part in this matter. When a congenial member of the list misnamed the King James Version the St. James Version I both made the correction and, knowing that I also make mistakes, softened the blow by noting that there was a sense in which the error was not entirely wrong. Since this is off-topic I will make this my final posting, but I note that my statements have been attacked on bases like that the Anglican Church has no saints, and that King James I was a devout Protestant. He was what we would consider a Protestant, but he played both sides of the fence (for example marrying his son to the daughter of His Most Catholic Majesty, the King of Spain), and although the most famous attempt on his life was by the Catholic Guy Faulkes, there were also attempts by Protestants as well. I have read in popular sources (I am no expert on James I) that he was never trusted by the Protestants, who once imprisoned him because they suspected him of being too favorable to Catholicism. There were accusations that he secretly encouraged his family to remain Catholic, and while I would not know if he did, certainly anyone with general knowledge of the House of Stuart will know that most of his descendants did do so. To add historical flavor, remember that before the time of William of Orange what we know of as the Church of England, the Anglican Church, or the Episcopal Church was then nothing of the sort. When Henry VIII broke with Rome, he and others thundered out abundantly that there was only ONE true and universal church and Henry was the head of it. A numismatic memory of this can be found on any English coin in the Latin inscription Fidei Defensor (Defender of the Faith), variously abbreviated and often paired with DG (by the Grace of God). The Pope had granted H VIII the title for his attack on Luther, but revoked the title because of later deeds. H VIII was still violently opposed to Luther, and as head of the Church reinstated his own title for fighting Protestantism and made it hereditary. Though not recently, I have read of the details of those days and with certain major differences that English Church had many Catholic aspects that have since been lost. NOR would I expect such monarchs's saintly status to get much press today, in the same way (but more so) that the Russian Orthodox Church has recently expressed ambivalent feelings about Czar Saints (including many Romanoffs). Therefore I would not expect James I to appear in any general book of the major Saints. For example, in researching the name Russell, which we gave our son, I noted that in its Latin variant it was one of the most common saint names of the early Christian Church, with over 200 of that name in the first two centuries. How many of them, or of Irish monks of various spellings, appear in that volume? Best, Marvant ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:44:08 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing >Is "all caps" style acceptable? Is either fine? Or should I recommend to >the client that I cap proper nouns only? >> Do Mi wrote: >Most of my clients want all caps; two want only proper nouns capped. What this means to me is that either style is generally acceptable. My experience is similar to Do Mi's, except that many clients don't care, or don't say. But of those that do, most ask for all caps. I agree that either style can be accpetable. I used to prefer to capitalise only proper names, because it aids readability, by helping users distinguish between different sorts of entries. I still think that this is generally true. Then I had the embarrassing experience, at a book launch, when the launcher publicly mistook one of my lower case entries for a subentry, and grossly misreported what the index revealed about the book. So now I think you have to take the typographical appearance of the whole index into account. When most of the entries are proper names (as often happens in a book about literature, or art, or music, for instance) then it can be a good idea to capitalise the concept entries too, so that they don't get lost. Alan -- ********************************************************** Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent, Potts Point, NSW, Australia 2011 Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ********************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:04:16 LCL Reply-To: David E Woodard Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David E. Woodard" You have probably gone over this topic before, but I am new to the list and need some advice. I am just starting as an Indexer and need help deciding what computer program(s) to use. Should I start out with something simple--I have only a few jobs at this point? If so, what would you suggest? Can I Index using MS Word or WordPerfect? Or should I invest in one of the more expensive programs now? If so, which one? I would appreciate some direction and help. Any suggestions and clarifications on the computer part of Indexing will be appreciated (you can email my home address if you want). David E. Woodard, Ph.D. St. Paul, MN wooda002@tc.umn.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:34:44 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Garbled messages This is just a gentle enquiry and in no way a complaint against any individual. Out of a number of Index-L messages I have just received (early Thursday morning in the UK), three (apparently from Kamm Schreiner, Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne, and Barbara J. Garten), looked like this: From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Interesting bid In-Reply-To: Seth wrote: >Sorry, I think it was my numbers. :-) Yes, per-entry rates are >usually astoundingly low. Imagine that your job were simply to fill >in a database by typing in names. If a typist can make $16 per hour >typing 100 names an hour, each name is worth only $.16. As an >indexer, you should make more than $16. I would expect a competent typist to be able to enter six or more names per minute, or about 350 per hour. Let's not underestimate other people's skills because they're different to our own. Jon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:35:49 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paul Webb Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry eJ8+IjEJAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAKQEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES AQC/MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLaAAAAAAAALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSESAQC/ MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLbAAAQAAAA/DHo86X90hGY6ABgCJ0hEhUAAABTdWJqZWN0IGFy ZWEgSW5xdWlyeQAAAEAAMgCgGmOPI5K+AQMANgAAAAAAAgFDAAEAAABBAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZ nW4A3QEPVAIAAAEATWFyaiBNaXRjaGVsbABTTVRQAG1taXRjaGVsbEBNU0pDT1JQLkNPTQAAAAAe AEQAAQAAAA4AAABNYXJqIE1pdGNoZWxsAAAAHgBJAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVp cnkAAAAAAgFMAAEAAABaAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAEASW5kZXhlcidzIERpc2N1 c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAU01UUABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAAeAE0A AQAAABsAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cAAAQABOAED/jk/Mkb4BQABVAABpZa/L kb4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb6Ry5ot p28Btf1wEdKKsAAQSyL9iQAV/U26AB4AcgABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHMAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgB0 AAEAAAAkAAAATXVsdGlwbGUgcmVjaXBpZW50cyBvZiBsaXN0IElOREVYLUwACwAIDAAAAAACAR0M AQAAAB8AAABTTVRQOlBBVUwuV0VCQkBDUk9TU1BST0QuQ08uVUsAAAsAAQ4BAAAACwAfDgEAAAAe AAEQAQAAABUAAABNZXNzYWdlIHdhcyByZWFkIG9uOgAAAAADAAYQAAAAAAMABxAAAAAAHgAIEAEA AAAEAAAAsLPfAAMAEBCY+5UCAwAREOQEAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAAr5Cf3rUHSEZGQsLIDwQAAAgH6 DwEAAAAQAAAAK+Qn961B0hGRkLCyA8EAAAIB+w8BAAAAUAAAAAAAAAA4obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbC AABQU1RQUlguRExMAAAAAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XFdJTkRPV1Ncb3V0bG9vay5w c3QAAwD+DwUAAAADAA00/TcAAAIBfwABAAAAMQAAADAwMDAwMDAwMkJFNDI3RjdBRDQxRDIxMTkx OTBCMEIyMDNDMTAwMDA0NDI5MjcwMAAAAAB5Eg== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:48:43 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Garbled messages In-Reply-To: Again, we have no knowledge of this message being sent. A list of INDEX-L subscribers can be obtained by any member by e-mail from the listserver. I wonder if someone is putting said list to some nefarious purpose? Jon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:10:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Importance of correct synonyms (was archives; biblical texts) Hello all, By continuing this discussion a bit, I do not intend to denigrate anyone. This discussion underscores a larger issue that I think needs to be addressed. Read on. While in a sense the discussion on the King James Bible could be considered off topic, I still say that if a possible synonym is suggested on the list, then I want to be sure that the suggestion is a correct one. It can be important in cross-referencing. As an indexer, I cannot possibly be expected to know every single synonym for every possible term that I come across--that is why I rely on this list and on reputable reference sources to help me when I need help in this area (an example of this was last week's Maori names question on INDEX-L. Regular reference sources did not help me at all with that one). The implication of the message about James I as a saint was that "St. James Bible" was an alternative way of referring to the King James Bible. That was an honest mistake on the part of the original poster. A subsequent posting suggested that James I "was formally declared a Saint of the religion of which he was the head, as had been his predecessors like Henry VIII and Elizabeth I." The better term there would have been "Defender of the Faith." "Defender of the Faith" and "Saint" do not have the same meaning. It is very important (at least to me) that when we post on INDEX-L that we be sure of our facts and terminology as much as possible. Yes, yes, I know. We all make mistakes. We whip off replies quickly as we try to help someone who boo-booed* in front of 800 people (and having boo-booed myself a few times, believe me, it is not a great feeling). But the beginning of this entire discussion was due in part to someone's asking about how to access the INDEX-L archives. The archives are there, at least in my mind, to serve as a reference source... So please, let's be careful with our facts and terminology in our postings. What we write here CAN end up in an index somewhere, somehow. Like maybe St. James Bible. See King James Bible Cynthia *Boo-booed: to make a mistake! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:29:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JRCNDX@AOL.COM Subject: Re: USDA class question In a message dated 99-04-28 17:52:56 EDT, MHam62@AOL.COM writes: > but I am now thoroughly > bummed to find that it may take 10 months to complete 3 semester hours for > the basic indexing class. I am in the process of finalizing lessons 8 and 9. I have been at it for a year, due to my own negligence in turnaround time. The average time between mailing the lessons and having them returned to me has been 3 weeks. I mail directly to my instructor, who is wonderful in answering questions and also in getting them graded and back to USDA. After mailing in lesson 1 alone (as requested in the instructions), I mailed 2 lessons at a time since most odd numbered lesson are indexing type assignments. Good luck! Jerry Cole ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:47:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Garbled messages Christine and others: I too have received these messages and am curious as to the cause and/or source. Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:57:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Interesting Bid If you are able to persuade the publisher to send you an Acrobat PDF version of the book, you could experiment with cutting and pasting names from the PDF file into your indexing program. If you are using Sky Index or Cindex for DOS you can set up macros to invert names, insert punctuation and qualifiers, and all sorts or magical things at the press of key. Or you can easily convert the PDF file to text and cut and paste from your word-processor. If you're using Cindex for Windows you can drag text from the word-processor into your index, but the Macro facilities are much more limited. I have recently indexed two humongous directories requiring little brain-power but enormous amounts of text, and by cutting and pasting from PDF files I was able to charge a rate that had the clients jumping for joy, and I still made much more money than my usual rate. A warning though -- my mouse wrist got very sore. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:07:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Garbled messages I got the messages, too, but since they were from people who have posted to the list before without problems, I assumed it was a glitch and not anything serious. Maybe I should rethink that assumption... -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Christine Shuttleworth [SMTP:cshuttle@DIRCON.CO.UK] > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 1999 2:35 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Garbled messages > > This is just a gentle enquiry and in no way a complaint against any > individual. > > Out of a number of Index-L messages I have just received (early Thursday > morning in the UK), three (apparently from Kamm Schreiner, Jonathan Jermey > & > Glenda Browne, and Barbara J. Garten), looked like this: > > WN > y > b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4Rj > NB > > etc. There was a further message from Kamm Schreiner which was legible as > usual and which disclaimed authorship of an earlier message (presumably > the > scrambled one). This doesn't normally happen to me with Index-L messages > and > I wonder if other people received the messages in the same unreadable > format, which clearly my software was unable to handle. And what might > have > caused it? > > Christine > > ************************************************************ > Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services > Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue > London W12 8JB > cshuttle@dircon.co.uk > ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:10:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: Garbled messages This may be a computer virus. I would suggest anyone who's email address is attached to these messages to fully clean their system and check with a couple of the virus sites to see if anything similar is listed or being discussed. Brian M. Peck Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us -----Original Message----- From: Julie Sherman Grayson [mailto:juliesg@IX.NETCOM.COM] Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 8:48 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Garbled messages Christine and others: I too have received these messages and am curious as to the cause and/or source. Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:13:14 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Importance of correct synonyms (was archives; biblical texts) In-Reply-To: >Cynthia wrote: >Yes, yes, I know. We all make mistakes. We whip off replies quickly as we >try to help someone who boo-booed* in front of 800 people (and having >boo-booed myself a few times, believe me, it is not a great feeling). > >*Boo-booed: to make a mistake! > Sorry Cynthia, but I think you may have boobooed again! Surely the term comes from boob - a mistake. Margaret Binns ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:08:04 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PCONNOLLY Subject: Re: Garbled messages I don't think it's deliberate posting. The fact that the header on all these messages reads "Read Subject area Inquiry" indicates that it's an automatic reply generated when the original message "Subject area Inquiry" was opened. It's possible that the sender of the original message has an automatic notification for read messages function active on her/his mail software, and somehow this is causing automatic notifications to go to the list in garbled form. Maybe some more technically expert list member can comment? Phil Jon wrote: > Again, we have no knowledge of this message being sent. A list of INDEX-L > subscribers can be obtained by any member by e-mail from the listserver. I > wonder if someone is putting said list to some nefarious purpose? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:26:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Importance of correct synonyms (was archives; biblical texts) At 02:13 PM 4/29/99 +0100, J.A Binns wrote: > >Sorry Cynthia, but I think you may have boobooed again! Surely the term >comes from boob - a mistake. > >Margaret Binns > > Well, now, I beg to differ. There is a word as you describe, true, BUT there is also this: Read Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition, page 131: boo-boo: meaning #2: MISTAKE; BLUNDER Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: copyediting Is there anyone on the list who is also a copyeditor? I've had some inquiries regarding it. What does it involve? -Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:17:55 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Garbled messages In-Reply-To: <199904291328.JAA00346@mx05.erols.com> Hi All, There have been several good suggestions on the list regarding the garbled messages which I have followed up on. I have checked my computer for viruses and none were found. (It was checked on April 25th also.) As far as an automatic reply, I can find no such facility in Outlook 98 - I searched the help file and examined the available options too. Further there is no evidence that the message was sent from my email program. A copy of all sent messages goes into my Sent Mail folder and that message was not there. (Is this true of the other folks that had garbled messages appear with their names on them?) If a virus is responsible. I suspect it is more likely on the listserve that on the individual's computers. Viruses are really pretty rare and to have 4 people from a rather small list get infected with the same virus is doubtful in my mind. Anybody else have ideas? Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com , Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472, Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:35:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Interesting bid At 07:29 PM 4/29/1999 +1000, Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: >I would expect a competent typist to be able to enter six or more names per >minute, or about 350 per hour. Let's not underestimate other people's skills >because they're different to our own. Wow! I type about 70 wpm, and I'm certain I could not enter the names, as described, in ten seconds each. As I recall, they involved many diacriticals, they were all "foreign" (depends, of course, on what is your native language), and they were arranged on pages with about 150 other names that needed to be typed. And if you're going to check or proofread your work (and with names like that, you really had better), you have to add some time for that process as well. All in all, 100 names an hour doesn't sound slow. In fact, it may actually be faster than average for such a Herculean undertaking. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:35:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: copyediting At 10:08 AM 4/29/1999 -0400, Kevin Broccoli wrote: >Is there anyone on the list who is also a copyeditor? I've had some >inquiries regarding it. What does it involve? Kevin, I've copyedited for 25 years, but I'm specializing now in indexing. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me off-list. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:53:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marj Mitchell Subject: Re: Subject area Inquiry This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE9250.199CED0A Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Kara. Thanks for responding. The variety of types of employment, subjects and mediums for indexing is amazing. It's a surprising bit of intel to learn the theatre publishers use in-house indexers. I'm out in CA, and the trend seems to be outsourcing of indexing by publishers (general subjects, not nec. theatre). I am going to approach this as a generalist (that was my MO in theatre, which is why I was a stage manager). Half the fun will be working on an ever-changing subject matter. Anyway, thanks again. -Marj > -----Original Message----- > From: John and Kara Pekar [SMTP:jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET] > Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 1999 8:08 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Subject area Inquiry > > > I am wondering if anyone has any information as to the viability of > indexing > > for the specialties of theatre and music. > > I've studied all areas of theatre - from acting through technical areas > to > > management. > > I've studied music - from composition to lit and history. > > Would these areas be large enough markets to specialize in? (Assuming I > > prove good enough.) > > Would these areas have more or less indexers already working them than > other > > subject areas? > > Welcome, Marj! > > I tried to break in to indexing using my own theater credentials. What I > discovered is that all the theater-book publishers I contacted used > in-house indexers. There are certainly publishers who do an occasional > book on the theater, but not enough to specialize in as far as I can tell. > I found a similar situation in the music field, though my marketing search > was not as extensive in that field. > > My advice is to start as a generalist. I actually did get a job from a > publisher I contacted because they did some theater books; the job I got > was on postmodern pedagogy, and had nothing to do with theater. Pull out > all your interests, not just areas you've studied formally. Are you a > cook? An avid gardener? Well-read in history or anthropology? Think > about what you do and what you enjoy reading about, and start making a > list. That gives you a broader base of publishers to target, and > increases > your chances of getting work. > > That's not to say you'll never get a chance to do theater or music books. > Keep looking for them. 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Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE9250.612F64CC Content-Type: text/plain Paula, Thanks for the reply. Every little bit of info is useful. -Marj > -----Original Message----- > > I have done music-related indexes for several publishers. There seems to > be less of it each year, and one of my main contacts for music > theory/history/criticism told me they weren't getting as many manuscripts. > I don't know if that's just that particular publisher or an unfortunate > trend. I was a music major and so try to look for publishers who > specialize > in music theory. 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Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Garbled messages Collective, I just love a mystery. About those "Read: Subject area inquiry" messages containing the "winmail.dat" file: Well, I was brave and let Word read it, asking it to find "any recoverable text." The text appears below. This appears to be *automatically* generated as a receipt to the sender notifying them that their email message has been read, and is being propagated by the list. I hope we don't see 800+ of these as each member of Index-L reads their morning mail. We've discovered another wrinkle in list membership (another being to not set your autoresponder to answer every posting from the list). Watch checking that receipt box. In Netscape, there are three tabs at the top of the message, one is the address tab, one is a paperclip (attachments) and the third is a mail sending options. There is a box for return receipt. Usually, my mail program has spawned a little box asking me if I want to send a receipt to the sender, and my guess is that the listserver that handles Index-L treated that as another message to send out. The last four lines are the receipt message, all the garbage everyone was seeing must be the header information. This does not appear to be a virus in the common sense, but it does seem to be self replicating. S. Greenhouse database indexer and all around busybody Here's what came up: IPM.Microsoft Mail.Read Receipt FC31E8F3A5FDD21198E80060089D2112 PCDFEB09 EMSMDB.DLL /o=AOD Network/ou=MSJ/cn=Recipients/cn=Marj M Subject area Inquiry Marj Mitchell mmitchell@MSJCORP.COM Marj Mitchell Subject area Inquiry Indexer's Discussion Group INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU Indexer's Discussion Group Subject area Inquiry Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L SMTP:DIAGONAL@HERMES.NET.AU Message was read on: PSTPRX.DLL C:\DATA\Outlook\mailbox.pst 000000003A7B2FDF7B75BD11873EB697C9E3B00E24132800 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 10:58:50 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen Kasoff Subject: Re: Garbled messages Yes, I have received them too. Suellen On Thu, 29 Apr 1999 06:34:44 -0000 Christine Shuttleworth writes: > >This is just a gentle enquiry and in no way a complaint against any >individual. > >Out of a number of Index-L messages I have just received (early >Thursday >morning in the UK), three (apparently from Kamm Schreiner, Jonathan >Jermey & >Glenda Browne, and Barbara J. Garten), looked like this: > >y >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB > >etc. There was a further message from Kamm Schreiner which was legible >as >usual and which disclaimed authorship of an earlier message >(presumably the >scrambled one). This doesn't normally happen to me with Index-L >messages and >I wonder if other people received the messages in the same unreadable >format, which clearly my software was unable to handle. And what might >have >caused it? > >Christine > >************************************************************ >Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services >Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue >London W12 8JB >cshuttle@dircon.co.uk >************************************************************ > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:08:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marj Mitchell Subject: Garbled messages - mea culpa Auto-response turned off. For those interested, the option is located in Outlook 97 under: Tools | Options | Sending | Tracking Options Wow. Never had this problem with my other lists. An inauspicious entry into the indexing community... Marj begin 600 winmail.dat M>)\^(@\/`0:0"``$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y`0```````#H``$(@`<` M&````$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`06``P`.````SP<$`!T` M"``(``0`!``/`0$@@`,`#@```,\'!``=``@`"``-``0`&`$!"8`!`"$````S M-C1!13A&,T$U1D1$,C$Q.3A%.#`P-C`P.#E$,C$Q,@`+!P$$@`$`'0```$=A M M`#^`""`&``````#`````````1@`````WA0```0````$`````````'@!`@`@@ M!@``````P````````$8`````.(4```$````!``````````(!"1`!````A0$` M`($!```3`@``3%I&==2,\;P#``H`@@`J0#XP(`!&-H"L!S970P(/\'$P*#`%`1'P<3![`*P`-@FG<"@'T*@`C( M(#L)8IT.(#@)NP*`"H%U8P!03PL##-`!P0Q@;&X"(&5#"Z82$'5T;RT)<'-F M<`(@$=`@=`AP&(!D="!O`2`N"J(*A`J`1K$%L71H;QGA"X!T!)"S!Y`<0&0L M&[$9\&\%,)YI`B`<$`0@"0!C81R1&1P1($\90`D`;VL@H#DW('5N!($Z&L3J M5!ZP;`0@?!Y@'3,@(I<&8!\P"X!G(#%4<@#0GFLA0B!E&LH7B2!7%)#J+@>Q M=@20(!&@&F`;P(T=D7`#8`)@96T@`_!Q&\`@;7D:00`=',D4",/ M$A`=<6Z\8749H`W@'5`HL"`)\.QT=8N*V`BJV,2LC$%T`K`OFHL40+1`4`:TQ31`"X@`````P`F```````#`#8` M``````L``@`!````'@!P``$````=````1V%R8FQE9"!M97-S86=E`#!``0````<```!-05)*($T```,`&4```````P#]/^0$```#`(`0 M_____P(!1P`!````,@```&,]55,[83T@.W`]04]$($YE='=O`#E``0````<```!-05)*($T``$``!S"V*5AT49*^`4``"#`FT40: M4I*^`1X`/0`!`````0`````````>`!T.`0```!T```!'87)B;&5D(&UE Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: problem messages I have been having trouble this morning with messages coming from Index-L, beginning with the one Kamm mentioned that was piggybacked from his account. I imagine others are having a problem as well. I'm going to temporarily go nomail if I can and hopefully the problem will be fixed. I'll emial Charlotte as well. If anyone else is having trouble, I'd be interested to know. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:19:49 -0700 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: Garbled messages Another source of the garbled messages is a format that MS Outlook uses (application/ms-tnef) that a lot of other mail programs can't read. Netscape is one of them. I tried downloading a shareware program that can read tnef files, but it didn't work. Bill Gates strikes again :-) Laura ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:39:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ? about index in progress << My thinking is that even though the authors are listed in the back reference section, the readers (professors and their students) might want to know where and in what context the authors are in the text. So I am indexing all referenced authors. >> If your editor has no opinion, I would do what you're doing. A few of my scholarly clients don't want citations indexed, but many of them (including some major ones) do. (Sometimes it varies from book to book.) Don't index citations that appear only in foot- or endnotes, unless there's substantive information about the book in the note. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:39:12 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Time needed for USDA course In-Reply-To: <199904290222.TAA05631@neti.saber.net> I had two 10 week stretches for turn-around time and as a result my instructor organized two free 3-month extensions. Naomi >I think a lot of it depends on your instructor--it took mine over 3 >months to get a single assignment back. At that rate, it is hard to >finish in a short amount of time... > >:) christy > *****************************************************************************J. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents <--Indexing students e-mail-list. http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/FAQ <--Index-L e-mail list FAQS. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 14:05:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Sherayko Subject: Working directly for authors Hi, I seem to have lots of questions this week. When you contract directly with the author for an index (primarily for scholarly books), do you ask for some portion of your fee up front? Do you send an invoice for this portion? When? Have you ever had difficulty getting payment from an author? Thanks in advance for the help. Carolyn C. Sherayko...........csherayko@centralva.net Sherayko Indexing Service 401 Norfolk Ave. Lynchburg, VA 24503........PH: 804.847.8893 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:27:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: "Newby" question In-Reply-To: <199904281710.rieu9r.9en.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> Almost none of my indexes are "standalone" - indexes that are not embedded in files. Most indexers who work outside of the technical arena can do more standalone indexes than I do. But in technical work, which almost all of mine is, embedded is the rule, and projects that involve single-sourcing one doc set to both print and online formats are getting fairly common. (That means we index once, and it has to work in both print format and online format after the documents are converted.) I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. Jan Wright At 12:19 PM 4/28/99 -0600, you wrote: >I'm unlurking briefly because (and this is a rarity) I've got a question >that the postings have not so far answered. I am not a full-time indexer, I >am a tech writer, but I care deeply about the quality of indexes that go in >the back of my manuals. I've been doing indexes through the tools built into >Word and Frame. > >All the replies to the recent "Newby" post seem to indicate the publisher >usually sends hard copy pages. I understand the basic concept and probably >could manage to construct an index with 3x5 cards and a shoebox, but somehow >I don't think that's what most of you do these days. > >So my question is, How often do you put markers in a text file of some sort >and then automatically generate the index listing, and how often is your >index completely free-standing, i.e., not connected to the text files? Maybe >it's not such an issue with academic books that are published in final form >and then rarely or only slightly revised thereafter. However, I find the >prospect of doing an index that does not consist of markers embedded in the >text rather alarming, because the material I work on changes so rapidly. > >Thanks in advance to the collective wisdom. ;-) > >Marcia Morrison >Qualitative Marketing Software >Boulder, Colorado >mmorrison@qmsoft.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:20:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: "Newby" question "Jan C. Wright" wrote: > > I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded > indexing, and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. The only indexing work we do any more is embedded (Windows Help and HTML). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:52:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: off-grid In a message dated 99-04-26 11:03:18 EDT, you write: << I would like to ask if anyone has experience or information on using PC's with an inverter (Solar power) or generators and also on cell phone modems (with a desk top PC). You can tell where this is going, right? Eventually we will be living OUT in the country!! >> Victoria replied: <> Real Goods (Ukaih, CA, 800-919-2400, www.realgoods.com) is an excellent source of information. The can set up an entire solar system for you, or give advice on your setup. They have a variety of other products, such as soaps, 100% cotton towels, air filters, etc. Anyone can purchase items, but the best deal is to become a member. For $50 you get the Sourcebook and a 5% discount on all purchases. See also Alternative Energy Engineering, below. On cell phone modems: Our cell phone company told us everyone they sold a cell phone modem to was disappointed. We had a regular phone line put into our farm. It didn't cost much more than a regular line, even though they had to dig in several miles of cable. It did take two months longer than we were promised. Electricity: We are off the grid and currently on solar, but will have a windmill, too. My husband is an electrician and my sister has a company that sets up solar power systems for houses. (Those who want her company's address can e-mail me off-list at IndexTaylr@aol.com.) The best solution is to buy devices meant to run on DC to begin with, rather than using an inverter. They are much more efficient. RV catalogs may help with locating some household devices. I don't know of any DC printers, so we will be using inverters for our printers. We have two laptop computers. (Always have a backup!) Even when I was on the grid, I wouldn't have anything else. Many models have optional 12 volt power supplies, also called car adapters. Our brands did not have adapters, so we bought the SmartSupply and SmartCord made by Nesco Battery Systems. It can be purchased from Alternative Energy Engineering (www.alt-energy.com, 800-777-6609). They have a tech support group to advise on setting up solar, wind and hydo systems (800-800-0624). Laptop computers are designed to use minimal power. Even after about a week of cloudy days, I have plenty of power to work on my computer all day. You need to put a lot of thought into purchasing an inverter. True sine wave are best, but some devices may work on modified sine wave inverters. You may not be happy with the results, though. Don't get a square wave. When picking an inverter, you have to carefully calculate the power usage of every device you will run and how many are running simultaneously. Get lots of detailed information from several experts. I'd love to hear from others who are off the grid. E-mail me off-list at IndexTaylr@aol.com. Maybe we can get a group to share experiences, as well as suppliers. Erin (Micki) Taylor 1313 23rd Road Kanopolis, KS 67454 785-472-3912 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:08:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information, Inc. Subject: Re: "Newby" question "David M. Brown" wrote: > > "Jan C. Wright" wrote: > > > > I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded > > indexing, and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. I am now doing a lot of embedded Quark indexing. It is currently about 40%-50% of my workload. Ann -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:15:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: "Newby" question In-Reply-To: <199904291444.riha4h.qpk.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> At 11:27 AM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, >and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would >be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, >and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. Virtually 100% standalone, virtually all technical books. Sixty books last year (about 20,000 pages), all done as standalone. This year I've done two for which the final product will be in FrameMaker, but even at that I do the indexes in Cindex then give a page-order sort to the packager, who embeds the tags. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:18:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Weiss Subject: Re: "Newby" question At 11:27 AM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, >and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would >be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, >and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. I'm not a freelancer. I work for a publisher. 100% of our indexing is done with Cindex. About 95% of the indexing is for periodicals. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:25:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: "Newby" question I'm doing about half and half, embedded and standalone; the trend is towards more embedded than standalone; also, those tend to be the larger books/higher paying projects. Susan Weiss wrote: > At 11:27 AM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: > >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, > >and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would > >be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, > >and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. > > I'm not a freelancer. I work for a publisher. 100% of our indexing is done with > Cindex. About 95% of the indexing is for periodicals. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:25:46 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Importance of correct synonyms (was archives; biblical texts) In-Reply-To: My Chambers English Dictionary has 'booboo' meaning blunder; the same as 'boob', which itself comes from 'booby' as in booby-prize, booby-trap etc. Boo-Boo was Yogi Bear's side-kick wasn't he? Is that where Merriam Webster's definition comes from? Is this another difference between English and American? Margaret At 09:26 AM 4/29/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:13 PM 4/29/99 +0100, J.A Binns wrote: >> >>Sorry Cynthia, but I think you may have boobooed again! Surely the term >>comes from boob - a mistake. >> >>Margaret Binns >> >> > >Well, now, I beg to differ. There is a word as you describe, true, BUT there >is also this: > >Read Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition, page 131: > >boo-boo: meaning #2: MISTAKE; BLUNDER > >Cynthia > ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 15:27:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re[2]: "Newby" question > "Jan C. Wright" wrote: > > > > I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded > > indexing, and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. I'm in-house, not a freelancer, but 100% of my work is embedded. We use a combination of Word, QuarkXPress, and PageMaker. Erika Millen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:39:47 -0700 Reply-To: hmcmurra@ix.netcom.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HEATHER MCMURRAY Subject: Re: Interesting bid I have carpal tunnel after 15 years of software testing, and don't think that anyone should really ask a typist to type consistently fast Heather Sonsie Conroy wrote: > At 07:29 PM 4/29/1999 +1000, Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne wrote: > > >I would expect a competent typist to be able to enter six or more names per > >minute, or about 350 per hour. Let's not underestimate other people's skills > >because they're different to our own. > > Wow! I type about 70 wpm, and I'm certain I could not enter the names, as > described, in ten seconds each. As I recall, they involved many > diacriticals, they were all "foreign" (depends, of course, on what is your > native language), and they were arranged on pages with about 150 other names > that needed to be typed. And if you're going to check or proofread your work > (and with names like that, you really had better), you have to add some time > for that process as well. > > All in all, 100 names an hour doesn't sound slow. In fact, it may actually > be faster than average for such a Herculean undertaking. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:51:47 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: c.anderson.seattle@ATT.NET Subject: Re: Working directly for authors Many years ago when I was starting out in this business, I took some jobs from academic authors directly. There were three and each one was a headache. Each author seemed to feel that his/her words were so priceless than it was in insult if they werent' indexed - a concordance would have pleased them well. Payment was a problem - constant second guessing was a problem - finally, I made it a rule of business that I would never again work directly with an author - and I have never regretted that rule. I know others have had positive experiences but for myself, I have the amount of work I want to do right now just from editors who understand professional indexing. If you're going to work with an author I would certain get a good contract and a deposit up front. Charles Anderson > Hi, > I seem to have lots of questions this week. > When you contract directly with the author for an index (primarily for > scholarly books), do you ask for some portion of your fee up front? Do you > send an invoice for this portion? When? Have you ever had difficulty > getting payment from an author? Thanks in advance for the help. > > Carolyn C. Sherayko...........csherayko@centralva.net > Sherayko Indexing Service > 401 Norfolk Ave. > Lynchburg, VA 24503........PH: 804.847.8893 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:01:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Garbled messages > Again, we have no knowledge of this message being sent. A list of INDEX-L > subscribers can be obtained by any member by e-mail from the listserver. I > wonder if someone is putting said list to some nefarious purpose? > > Jon Or perhaps someone is playing a practical joke? Not a particularly funny one... Kara ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:08:15 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ralph REID Subject: Re: dictionary cross-referencing Hi Pam Would I expect it? Never in a million years! Regards from Ralph Reid Sydney Australia -----Original Message----- From: Pam Rider To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, 29 April 1999 2:04 AM Subject: dictionary cross-referencing >Would folks here expect that cross-references in a dictionary would be >logical and/or helpful. I recognize that general dictionaries refer readers >to synonyms and antonyms, but I mean actual "See also" entries. > >Examples: > >dog [definition here] See also canine > >hearing [definition here] See also ear > >red [definition here] .See also color >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 18:25:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Dinse Subject: Re: "Newby" question I would say 70% of my work is embedded in Word files which are then flowed into PageMaker at the publisher. The PageMaker files are compiled and the index is converted to RTF and sent to me so I can edit the finished product in Word. 30% of my business is stand-alone using Cindex. Johnna VanHoose Indexing Editing Proofreading Indianapolis johnnav@iquest.net >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, >and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would >be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, >and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:44:14 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry eJ8+Ig4AAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAKgEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES AQC/MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLaAAAAAAAALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSESAQC/ MFAxib/REZh8AGAInSESAAAAARLbAAAQAAAA/DHo86X90hGY6ABgCJ0hEhUAAABTdWJqZWN0IGFy ZWEgSW5xdWlyeQAAAEAAMgAg8oatJZK+AQMANgAAAAAAAgFDAAEAAABBAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZ nW4A3QEPVAIAAAEATWFyaiBNaXRjaGVsbABTTVRQAG1taXRjaGVsbEBNU0pDT1JQLkNPTQAAAAAe AEQAAQAAAA4AAABNYXJqIE1pdGNoZWxsAAAAHgBJAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVp cnkAAAAAAgFMAAEAAABaAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAEASW5kZXhlcidzIERpc2N1 c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAU01UUABJTkRFWC1MQEJJTkdWTUIuQ0MuQklOR0hBTVRPTi5FRFUAAAAeAE0A AQAAABsAAABJbmRleGVyJ3MgRGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBHcm91cAAAQABOAED/jk/Mkb4BQABVAIDma43L kb4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAbAAAAAb6Ry5ot p28Btf1wEdKKsAAQSyL9iQAWhNjiAB4AcgABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAHMAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgB0 AAEAAAAkAAAATXVsdGlwbGUgcmVjaXBpZW50cyBvZiBsaXN0IElOREVYLUwACwAIDAAAAAACAR0M AQAAABwAAABTTVRQOkRJQUdPTkFMQEhFUk1FUy5ORVQuQVUACwABDgEAAAALAB8OAQAAAB4AARAB AAAAFQAAAE1lc3NhZ2Ugd2FzIHJlYWQgb246AAAAAAMABhAAAAAAAwAHEAAAAAAeAAgQAQAAAAQA AABgsM0AAwAQEJj7DAIDABEQ5AQAAAIB+A8BAAAAEAAAADp7L997db0Rhz62l8njsA4CAfoPAQAA ABAAAAA6ey/fe3W9EYc+tpfJ47AOAgH7DwEAAABVAAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsqVsIAAFBT VFBSWC5ETEwAAAAAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcREFUQVxPdXRsb29rXG1haWxib3gu cHN0AAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADEAAAAwMDAwMDAwMDNBN0IyRkRGN0I3NUJE MTE4NzNFQjY5N0M5RTNCMDBFODQxRTI4MDAAAAAAaxY= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:44:15 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing In-Reply-To: I must admit to being an absolute convert to the 'caps for proper names only' school, since this is one area where I believe there is research to support it (not specifically for indexes, but in all sorts of writing). If, in a normal index, caps on proper names only is useful because it distinguishes these proper names from other entries, then shouldn't it also work the other way in a book with mainly proper names (where the lower case entries would be distinguished and more easily findable because they didn't look the same)? Perhaps the thing to change in this example would be the layout rather than the capitalisation; maybe if the subdivisions were indented more they could not be confused with lower-cased main entries. Nice to be invited to a book launch too... Glenda. > I used to prefer to capitalise only proper names, because it aids > readability, by helping users distinguish between different sorts of > entries. I still think that this is generally true. > > Then I had the embarrassing experience, at a book launch, when > the launcher > publicly mistook one of my lower case entries for a subentry, and grossly > misreported what the index revealed about the book. > > So now I think you have to take the typographical appearance of the whole > index into account. When most of the entries are proper names (as often > happens in a book about literature, or art, or music, for > instance) then it > can be a good idea to capitalise the concept entries too, so that > they don't > get lost. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:25:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Time needed for USDA course In a message dated 4/28/99 6:52:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, susanhernandez@JUNO.COM writes: << This is offered as a "FYI" to people taking or thinking about taking the USDA Basic Indexing course: I did it, from start to certificate in hand, in 5 months. It does not have to take 10 months to a year to complete. - Susan >> Susan; Were you working at the time? Also, I've noticed that the lessons take time to get to the teacher, and then the graded paperwork has to go back to USDA. How did you get around that? :-) Patrick. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:30:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: proofreading In a message dated 4/28/99 9:35:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lfs7@erols.com writes: << Maybe others will like to have this information, too. The company named "EEI Communications" conducts courses in proofreading, editing, indexing, and other subjects at their site in Alexandria, VA. They publish >> Loraine; How long does the on-site training last? Patrick. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:55:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: Working directly for authors Hi Carolyn, I have worked directly for authors fairly frequently over the last 15 years. I have never had a problem getting paid, but I do try to make sure that the author signs a formal contract right at the beginning. At the same time I go through a list of specs with them and try to clarify mutual expectations. I also try to find out how they are paying for the index -- eg, if it is a research grant they will know how much they can spend and whether it fits in their budget. Sometimes they ask me to bill as if it were some kind of text preparation service, because that is how the budget is divided up at the university. Most have been extremely grateful that they did not have to do this work on top of getting the whole thing finished. The one thing I do have trouble collecting sometimes is my copy of the published book. I do put it right on the invoice, but sometimes there is quite a time lapse until it appears. The author may forget, I may forget, or he/she finds that there are not enough free copies to spread around. I also don't go out of my way to accomodate authors who start fussing right from the first that it is very expensive. I just suggest they call some other indexers to get a comparison, and offer them a few names from the registry. They never call back. I have never asked for a deposit, but I imagine that it would be a good idea if you were at all doubtful about the author's intentions. Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:28:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Gabriel Subject: Read: Subject area Inquiry This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE9276.7DDA3040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your message To: Recipients of INDEX-L digests Subject: Subject area Inquiry Sent: 4/28/99 4:11 PM was read on 4/29/99 4:30 PM. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE9276.7DDA3040 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IioCAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEIAAUABAAAAAAAAAAAAAEJAAQAAgAAAAAA AAABBoADAA4AAADPBwQAHQATABwAAAAEACoBAQOQBgBgBwAALQAAAAsAAgABAAAACwAjAAAAAAAD ACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAACwArAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAIBMQABAAAAFgEAAFBDREZFQjA5AAEAAgBw AAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsqVsIAAEVNU01EQi5ETEwAAAAAAAAAABtV+iCqZhHNm8gAqgAv xFoMAAAAT1NDQVIAL289QU9EIE5ldHdvcmsvb3U9TVNKL2NuPVJlY2lwaWVudHMvY249TWFyaiBN AC4AAAAAAAAAnpXM347g0RGYpwBgCJ0hEgEAvzBQMYm/0RGYfABgCJ0hEgAAAAES2gAAAAAAAC4A AAAAAAAAnpXM347g0RGYpwBgCJ0hEgEAvzBQMYm/0RGYfABgCJ0hEgAAAAES2wAAEAAAAPwx6POl /dIRmOgAYAidIRIVAAAAU3ViamVjdCBhcmVhIElucXVpcnkAAAADADYAAAAAAAIBTAABAAAAWgAA AAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAABAEluZGV4ZXIncyBEaXNjdXNzaW9uIEdyb3VwAFNNVFAA SU5ERVgtTEBCSU5HVk1CLkNDLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVAAAAHgBNAAEAAAAbAAAASW5kZXhlcidz IERpc2N1c3Npb24gR3JvdXAAAB4AcAABAAAAFQAAAFN1YmplY3QgYXJlYSBJbnF1aXJ5AAAAAAIB cQABAAAAIAAAAAG+kcuaLadvAbX9cBHSirAAEEsi/YkAMygq+wAGOLwgCwAXDAAAAAACAR0MAQAA ABMAAABTTVRQOkpFQU5AR0FCRS5PUkcAAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAGDgA4sxCxkr4BAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAA AAAAACrCbItbh9IRu9kAYAgCotDCgAAACwAfDgEAAAADAAYQdaSWkwMABxBqAAAAHgAIEAEAAABl AAAAWU9VUk1FU1NBR0VUTzpSRUNJUElFTlRTT0ZJTkRFWC1MRElHRVNUU1NVQkpFQ1Q6U1VCSkVD VEFSRUFJTlFVSVJZU0VOVDo0LzI4Lzk5NDoxMVBNV0FTUkVBRE9ONC8yOS85OQAAAAACAQkQAQAA AA4BAAAKAQAAewEAAExaRnVW1KIQAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcgAqQD4wIAY2gK wABzZXQwIFRhaJsDcQKAfQqACMggOwlvZjACgAqBdWMAUAsDZiBpLTE0NAFAbGkXFSMM0BUjYwBB dWxuhQIgZQukMTYgWQhh4iAHgXNhZxbgCrEKhMUKgCAZA1RvOgyCB/AfBZAFIAiQAjAEIG9mIABJ TkRFWC1MIDRkaRggcxpgGKpTdbRiagWQdBmEHHUgCsAEZWEasG5xdWlyDnkbuxpBGYQ0LzI4CC85 OR/QOjExIJxQTRhICzEYYndhBCBdHdFkGoADoB/hOSAkM1sRYCCwLhhKEgEAJKAAAAMAEBAAAAAA AwAREAEAAAALAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAA4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAA AABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAOMVAAAeAAiACCAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjUACwAMgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABoUA AAAAAAADAA2ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAFoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAXgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADABmACCAGAAAAAADA AAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AKIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAA AAAeACmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAqgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAsAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAIKFAAABAAAA CwA0gAsgBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAIgAAAAAAAALADaACyAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAF iAAAAAAAAAIB+A8BAAAAEAAAACrCbItbh9IRu9kAYAgCotACAfoPAQAAABAAAAAqwmyLW4fSEbvZ AGAIAqLQAgH7DwEAAABzAAAAAAAAADihuxAF5RAaobsIACsqVsIAAFBTVFBSWC5ETEwAAAAAAAAA AE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcV0lORE9XU1xBcHBsaWNhdGlvbiBEYXRhXE1pY3Jvc29mdFxP dXRsb29rXG91dGxvb2sucHN0AAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEAAAAxAAAAMDAwMDAwMDAy QUMyNkM4QjVCODdEMjExQkJEOTAwNjAwODAyQTJEMDg0MzcyMjAwAAAAAORy ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BE9276.7DDA3040-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 22:12:30 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: Cindex importing Hi All, I was given a concordance, made in MSWord 97, and am to turn this into an index. All of these words must appear in the index. The problem I am having is trying to figure out how to import the list into Cindex. In the handbook it says to import records make with a word-processor to choose Tab Separated from the Files of type drop-down list. Well, I can't find Tab Separated. Maybe I'm just tired. I'd appreciate any help. Thanks, kathy paparchontis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 23:42:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Subject: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE929F.42B58400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help! Please help, o kind collective wisdom! I've been asked to do some major revisions to an index I've done for a regulation -- my jurisdiction's Rules of Court. I'll be paid for the revisions, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep everybody happy (the publisher and the publisher's boss), while still producing an index that will be useful for the readership (mostly lawyers). I also don't know how to estimate my time for this. The judge who is the head of the Rules of Court committee says he wants the index to be just like the index that was done in 1968--says it's the best, although there have been several done since. (It would have been nice if I'd known about this view before I wrote my index! For all I know, he wrote the old one, so I'd better be diplomatic.) That index was 88 pages, in two columns of fine print. Mine is about 35 pages, in one column of 10-point text. The publisher likes the brevity, naturally, and is anxious about the expense of increasing the length (both printing cost and indexing cost). Actually, it has just occurred me that part of the difference in length is because I've already done separate indexes for some parts of the whole binder, and some other parts were to be done in future indexes -- e.g., Court of Appeal rules. The current index relates to just 444 pages of a total of about 900, where the old one dealt with everything (whatever that was 31 years ago). My main problem is that I think the old index is strangely organised and very wordy. For instance, it has a main head for "absconding debtor", instead of having it as a subhead under "debtor." Similarly, it has "abridgment of time" as a main head, where I would have thought it more convenient to have entries relating to time under a head called "time". It has four columns of entries under "actions", which is, in my view, like having a main head for "Clinton, Bill" in a book about Bill Clinton. (OK, so I have "actions" too, but the subheads are mostly cross-references to more specific headings.) As for wordiness, here's a sample: Actions order carrying on, after death, insolvency or person interested coming into existence Another form of wordiness, it seems to me, is the excessive use of subheads. The index should reference every concept of substance, but surely we don't need 15 sub-subheads that all refer to the same few subsections of one rule? It does have good points -- possibly I should have more double-posting, e.g., "adjournment" as a main head, in addition to sub-heads under each type of proceeding: trial adjournment I know I can't and don't want to make an index just like the old one, but I need to be reasonably accommodating. And I need to make some sort of rational defence of the proposed revision vis a vis the old index. And I need to figure out just how to attack the revision process -- is there some kind of structured approach I could use? And just how do I estimate this beast??? Help!.... Kate Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB kwelsh@planet.eon.net Indexing - Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing Briefs - Legal materials - Manuals - Plain language materials - Policies ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE929F.42B58400 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Help! Please help, o kind collective=20 wisdom!
 
I've been asked to do some major revisions to an index I've = done for a=20 regulation -- my jurisdiction's Rules of Court. I'll be paid for the = revisions,=20 but I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep everybody happy (the = publisher=20 and the publisher's boss), while still producing an index that will be = useful=20 for the readership (mostly lawyers). I also don't know how to estimate = my time=20 for this.
 
The judge who is the head of the Rules of Court committee says = he wants=20 the index to be just like the index that was done in 1968--says it's the = best,=20 although there have been several done since. (It would have been nice if = I'd=20 known about this view before I wrote my index! For all I know, = he wrote=20 the old one, so I'd better be diplomatic.) That index was 88 pages, in = two=20 columns of fine print. Mine is about 35 pages, in one column of 10-point = text.=20 The publisher likes the brevity, naturally, and is anxious about the = expense of=20 increasing the length (both printing cost and indexing=20 cost).
 
Actually, it has just occurred me that part of the difference = in length=20 is because I've already done separate indexes for some parts of the = whole=20 binder, and some other parts were to be done in future indexes -- e.g., = Court of=20 Appeal rules. The current index relates to just 444 pages of a total of = about=20 900, where the old one dealt with everything (whatever that was 31 years = ago).
 
My main problem is that  I think the old index is = strangely=20 organised and very wordy. For instance, it has a main head for = "absconding=20 debtor", instead of having it as a subhead under = "debtor."=20 Similarly, it has "abridgment of time" as a main head, where I = would=20 have thought it more convenient to have entries relating to time under a = head=20 called "time". It has four columns of entries under=20 "actions", which is, in my view, like having a main head for=20 "Clinton, Bill" in a book about Bill Clinton. (OK, so I have=20 "actions" too, but the subheads are mostly cross-references to = more=20 specific headings.)
 
As for wordiness, here's a sample:
 
Actions
    order carrying on, = after death,=20 insolvency or person interested coming into = existence
 
Another form of wordiness, it seems to me, is the excessive use = of=20 subheads. The index should reference every concept of substance, but = surely we=20 don't need 15 sub-subheads that all refer to the same few subsections of = one=20 rule?
 
It does have good points -- possibly I should have more = double-posting,=20 e.g., "adjournment" as a main head, in addition to sub-heads = under=20 each type of proceeding:
 
trial
    adjournment
 
I know I can't and don't want to make an index just like the = old one, but=20 I need to be reasonably accommodating. And I need to make some sort of = rational=20 defence of the proposed revision vis a vis the old index. And I need to = figure=20 out just how to attack the revision process -- is there some kind of = structured=20 approach I could use? And just how do I estimate this=20 beast???
 
Help!....
Kate
 

Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB
kwelsh@planet.eon.net
Indexi= ng -=20 Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing
Briefs - = Legal=20 materials - Manuals - Plain language materials - = Policies


 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BE929F.42B58400-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:56:03 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry In message , "Barbara J. Garten" writes >eJ8+IgUEAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB >NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAPwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA >KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA >RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y >ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES etc., etc. Dear Barbara, and certain other 'offenders', PLEASE could you send Index-L messages in English, or at least a recognisable language? Best wishes, Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England Tel/fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Mobile: 07771-615239 (Vodafone) ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tony Davies Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry In-Reply-To: <199904300923.CAA10916@crow.prod.itd.earthlink.net> I don't think Ms Garten meant either to offend or to address the group in a language other that English. It would have been more helpful to caution about accidentally pasting into the body of an email message something that isn't ASCII text. Tony Davies Date sent: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:56:03 +0100 Send reply to: "Indexer's Discussion Group" From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry Originally to: "Barbara J. Garten" To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > In message , "Barbara J. Garten" writes > >eJ8+IgUEAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAIAAAAElQTS5NaWNy > >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5SZWFkIFJlY2VpcHQAAwsBDYAEAAIAAAACAAIAAQqAAQAhAAAARkMzMUU4RjNB > >NUZERDIxMTk4RTgwMDYwMDg5RDIxMTIAGgcBA5AGAPwEAAAiAAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsA > >KQAAAAAAAgExAAEAAAAWAQAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAHAAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAA > >RU1TTURCLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAAG1X6IKpmEc2byACqAC/EWgwAAABPU0NBUgAvbz1BT0QgTmV0d29y > >ay9vdT1NU0ovY249UmVjaXBpZW50cy9jbj1NYXJqIE0ALgAAAAAAAACelczfjuDREZinAGAInSES > > etc., etc. > > Dear Barbara, and certain other 'offenders', > > PLEASE could you send Index-L messages in English, or at least a > recognisable language? > > Best wishes, > > Betty > ==================================================================== > Elizabeth M. Moys > email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk > Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, > Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England > Tel/fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 > Mobile: 07771-615239 (Vodafone) > ==================================================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:22:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry Dear Tony et al Re Betty's message. Don't be so sensitive! Betty was merely being mildly sarcastic! Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:44:38 +0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Working directly for authors In-Reply-To: <99Apr29.215737-0400_edt.1042-223464+288@email.unc.edu> I've been working directly for authors of scholarly publications off and I've only had one problem getting paid, and that was more disorganization than unwillingness. The problem inherent in working for authors [i.e. getting paid by authors] is that there is a sort of author-editor-indexer triangle, and there can be conflicting expectations, with the indexer not knowing quite whom she's directly responsible to. There are many many good editors who deal effectively with this, so that even when the author is paying, what's expected of the indexer is clear. If this isn't the case, the only way to deal with it is to very explicitly ask for an author's input up front and ask questions when necessary of both author and editor. It's important to express at the beginning and again at the end that what you have submitted is the very best product you can give, not a draft that is subject to joint rewriting with the author after the index is submitted. If that isn't acceptable, then it's probably better not to accept the work. ________________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman Rare Book Collection Wilson Library CB# 3936 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (919) 962-1143 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:43:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Interesting reference sources for indexers Hello all, I was just doing some Web searching for a project and came up with these three sites: The World Biographical Index by K.G. Saur Publishing (free) http://www.biblio.tu-bs.de/acwww25u/wbi_en/ This database is based on the 5th edition of the World Biographical Index containing about 2.4 million short biographical entries for eminent individuals who lived in North and South America, Western and Central Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and Oceania. This edition is also a compiled index to many biographical archives. (Could possibly be used for name verification. Note that Asia and Africa are not included in the scope of the database.) Initial Articles http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/katmandu/catcopy/article.html This site includes an introduction to the issue of initial articles, followed by a list of initial articles to ignore in sorting--in several unusual languages, too. I printed out the list for future reference. Then for those of you who are isolated from libraries or pressed for time, there is this: Literary Market Place and International Literary Markeplace Online (fee necessary) http://lmp.bookwire.com/ Follow the instructions for sign-up. You can sign up for both LMP and ILMP for $291.75 (single subscriptions for either LMP or ILMP are $216.75). This is a complete online and searchable version of the print version, and there are more frequent updates than with the print version. This might be something to consider subscribing to if you are doing a lot of marketing or want to branch out into a new subject realm of indexing. It certainly would save time and gasoline spent in running to the library and then searching manually through the print editions. Sometimes when I go to use LMP, it is nowhere to be found, even though it is in the reference section and is not circulated. Either someone has used it and left it in a carrel or is using it and my trip was for naught! Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia Purdy Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing Services Cookbooks and Food Writing a Specialty cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:53:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: cperry Christine Perry Subject: Re: "Newby" question "Jan C. Wright" wrote: >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, and of those who do embed, how much of our work >entails it. > I work for a software development company as a technical writer. Our products change so quickly that a stand alone index would be obsolete before we sent it to the printer. All of our indexing is embedded. Depending on the project, we either enter the index codes in Word and convert the documents to a Windows help format (using HDK), or we enter the codes in an online format (Windows help using Robohelp) and convert the online to Word documents. Both methods require some creative cleanup and are less than ideal. The amount of time I spend indexing varies, maybe around 20%. I consider the indexes essential to the usability of our documentation and hope to allocate more indexing time to future products. Christine Perry Senior Technical Writer Macola Software cperry@macola.com www.macola.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:54:49 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Garbled messages In-Reply-To: <199904291451.KAA24181@mx05.erols.com> I have another clue for the mystery of the garbled messages. Has anyone else noticed that the garbled messages had the subject "Read: Subject area Inquiry" and that the original message had a subject of simply "Subject area Inquiry". Outlook 98 ads "Re: " to the subject of a message when it is being replied to - not "Read: ". I don't know of *any* email program that ads "Read: ". Is anyone familiar with an email program that does? Kamm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com , Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472, Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:09:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Time needed for USDA course > This is offered as a "FYI" to people taking or thinking about taking > the USDA Basic Indexing course: I did it, from start to certificate in > hand, in 5 months. It does not have to take 10 months to a year to > complete. > > - Susan > I finished the course in approx. 7 mos. actual working time, although I had a 5 month period between lessons 4 & 5 when I had to drop it due to personal reasons. And that included a 6-week hold-up getting the first two lessons graded because there was a change in the instructor. I often submitted two lessons at a time. I always had the next lesson ready to go as soon as the last ones were returned, so that I only had to make any revisions needed from the feedback on the prior lessons & drop it in the mail. If your instructor hits a bottleneck or has some crisis, that can slow things down a lot, and it is just a matter of luck, I guess. Someone recently posted that they had requested and received a change in instructor when their lessons were not being returned in a reasonable amount of time - that should be not be more than approximately a month. My instructor usually got my lessons done within 10 to 14 days, as far as the actual grading. Yep, it is possible to do it in less than 10 months! Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:40:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Stump the group ... >Who is the administrator for this group? I have a question about the instructions which I received when I subscribed. > >to-wit: > > > >" ... You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" command to >LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). ..." > >Why are two addresses listed? Which one do we use? > >Thanks! > >MJB Many thanks to all those replies received for this query. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:36:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Garbled messages I have another clue for the mystery of the garbled messages. Has anyone else noticed that the garbled messages had the subject "Read: Subject area Inquiry" and that the original message had a subject of simply "Subject area Inquiry". Outlook 98 ads "Re: " to the subject of a message when it is being replied to - not "Read: ". I don't know of *any* email program that ads "Read: ". Is anyone familiar with an email program that does? Kamm Outlook does. What these are are automatically generated resonses produced by Outlook letting the sender know that the recipient has read the message that they posted. Someone-- probably unintentionally-- has their email program configured to notify them when the recipient of their message has read their messages (I think it's a default setting on Outlook), and these notifications are somehow being sent to the list-- possibly by someone who also has another automatic message programmed (and "out of the office" message, for instance). -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:11:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy Kate, It sounds like what you've run into is one of the more delicate situations that we have to deal with frequently, and that is people (judges and attorneys) who want to be able to practice law from the index. The index is supposed to get them to the section, but we should not be setting out the text of the statutes (or rules) in the index. Unfortunately, that's what some clients want. That having been said, though, I have to agree with the judge that your index, while commendably brief, sounds rather too brief for the subject matter indicated. The kind of index you describe as the 1968 index is representative of the old style of legal indexing where we did used to have 15 subentries under one heading all referring to the same rule and subsection, which is, of course, blatant overindexing and simply bad form. However, a good compromise would be to find a way to take those 15 subentries and make main headings out of them-- in other words, spread them around, don't try to clump them. With court rules or other legal procedure-type material, if you try to take an overall subject matter approach (like only treating "absconding debtors" under "debtors"), you will end up with only a handfull of main headings, each going on for pages and pages. There's nothing wrong with making "absconding debtors" a main entry-- in fact, it should be a main entry-- but if you have a heading "debtors" it needs to be treated there, too. Court rules tend to be pretty dense, so we usually get 4 or 5 entries, and it's not unusual to get 25-30 entries, out of any one rule (depending on the rule and it's length). One other factor that may be an issue is specific legal terminlogy. According to your signature line you don't appear to have a law degree. While it's not necessary for legal indexers to have law degrees, especially when dealing with treatises, etc., when you're dealing with primary legal material (statutes, constitutions, court rules and, to a lesser extent, administrative regulations), having a law degree is almost essential. Otherwise, it's like trying to index a book written in a language that you don't speak, or that you only speak a little of. There are certain terms of art and jargon that if you have a law degree you just know to look for and use. I only bring this up because actually, "absconding debtor" is one of them. As a lawyer doing legal research, that's where I would look first. Of course, if I didn't find it there I would then look under "debtors," but I would be surprised if the term wasn't used as a main heading. There are literally thousands of examples of this. I'm not trying to undermine your confidence or imply that you aren't capable of creating a legal index-- far from it!-- but I would suggest that you look through that old index carefully and pay attention particularly to the main headings that were used. If you have questions about whether some of the phrases are actual legal terms of art or just bad indexing, feel free to email me offlist or on the list-- I'm sure I'm not the only one on the list who could help you. Good luck! And incidentally, as a group here at Lexis Law Publishing the consensus among all of us indexers is that we HATE to index Court Rules for precisely some of the reasons that you've encountered and that I've laid out here! It's usually a source of a major battle to see who gets stuck with them! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:46:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: ASI Annual Meeting The early bird deadline to register for the ASI Annual Meeting, June 9-13, 1999, in Indianapolis is May 9. In addition the hotel block deadline is May 11. There are still a few rooms left for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights. Program Update **Wednesday Morning Workshops** What's In a Name with Jean Thompson Basic Indexing, Part I with Kay Schlembach and Joanne Clendenen Advanced MACREX with Gale Rhoades OnLine Help Indexing, Part l with Bill Meisheid **Wednesday Lunch Roundtables** Beyond Book Indexing with Marilyn Rowland and Diane Brenner Editing Indexes with Kay Banning and Linda Webster Indexing by Moonlight with Carolyn Weaver Mechanics of Indexing with Becky Hornyak and Rachel Rice Perfectionism in Indexing with Sharon Duffy Periodical Indexing with Sharon Hughes (CLOSED) Teaching Indexing with Fred Leise Usability Testing of Indexes with Dick Evans What Editors are Looking For with Caryl Wenzel (CLOSED) Why Indexers Should Have Web Sites with Kevin Broccoli and Gerry Van Ravenswaay Working with Others (Even Other Indexers) with Seth Maislin **Wednesday Afternoon Special Event** Tour of Macmillan Computer Publishing **Wednesday Afternoon Workshops** Publishing Essentials for Indexers (Canceled) New Users of Cindex for Windows with Maria Sullivan Young Indexing Legal Materials: Sharing Approaches with Kristine Karnezis Online Help Indexing, Part 2 **Wenesday Evening Special Event** Take Me Out to the Ballgame **Thursday Morning Workshops** Basic Macrex with Gale Rhoades Basic Indexing, Part 2 with Kay Schlembach and Joanne Clendenen Moving Beyond the Basics with CINDEX with Maria Sullivan Young Web Indexing, Part 1 with Kevin Broccoli, Marilyn Rowland, and Gerry Van Ravenswaay (CLOSE to CLOSING) **Thursday Afternoon Roundtables** Finding Work with Barb Littlewood (CLOSED) Genealogy with Peg Mauer Getting Started with Melinda Davis and Enid Zafren The Indexer's guide to the Internet with Lori Lathrop (CLOSE TO CLOSING) Indexing Books in Spanish with Francine Cronshaw Indexing Specialties: History with Margie Towery Indexing Specialties: Medical with Pilar Wyman Isolation and Other Psychological Tips with Becky Hornyak and Rachel Rice Negotiating with Clients with Carol Roberts Scholarly Indexing with Martin White (CLOSE TO CLOSING) **Thursday Afternoon Workshops** Open/Closed Indexing with Susan Klement (CANCELED) Polishing the Product with Enid Zafran (NEW) Introduction to MACREX with Do Mi Stauber Thesaurus Development with Jessica Milstead Web Indexing, Part 2 with Kevin Broccoli, Marilyn Rowland, and Gerry Van Ravenswaay **Thursday Night Special Event** SIG Meeting **Friday Morning Chapter Leaders Meeting** **Friday Morning General Sessions** Secondary Indexing--The Specifics of Managing Revisions, Cumulations, and Spin-Offs with Frances Lennie What Happens When You Talk to Your Computer: The Ins and Outs of Voice Recognition and What It Can and Can't Do For an Indexer with Larry Edmonson Shoah Visual History Foundation Macmillan: Editorial Process Macmillan: Embedded Indexing **Friday Panel Presentations** Editor-Indexer Relations with Diane Worden (Moderator); Peace Kwiatek, McGraw-Hill; Sandra Merz Bott, Human Kinetics; Sue Breckenridge, University of Nebraska at Lincoln; and Dr. David Noble, JiST Works. Working with Packagers with Mary Mortensen (Moderator); Cindy Miller, Clarinda Prepress; James Reidel, Custom Editorial Productions; and Marcia Craig, Graphic World. Scholarly Offerings wih Laura Moss Gottlief (Moderator), Ruth Melville, Ohio State University Press; Scott Lenz, University of Wisconsin Press; and Kathryn Kraynek, University of Chicago Press. Indexing Technology in the 21st Century with Lori Lathrop (Moderator); Bell Meischeid, Seth Maislin, and Dick Evans. **Friday Afternoon Workshops** Marketing for the Shy with Carol Roberts Opening Windows on Your PC with Maria Sullivan Young Exhaustivity of Indexes: Books, Journals, and Electronic Full Text with Bella Hass Weinberg (CLOSE TO CLOSING) Indexing Skills for Technical Communicators with Lori Lathrop **Friday Afternoon Special Event** Hospitality Suite Hosted by IDG Books and York Graphics **Friday Evening Special Event** Arts Garden Award Reception and Banquet **Saturday Morning Town Hall Meeting** **Saturday Morning General Sessions** What's Happening in ASI with ASI Board Indexing Consistency and Training with Kim Schroeder The Index as an Electronic Retrieval Tool with Michael Stelmach Taking Back the Desktop with Gregory Rawlins **Saturday Lunch Keynote Speech** with Joe Queenan, author of Red Lobster, White Trash, and Blue Lagoon. **Saturday Afternoon Workshops** Who Are You Talking to with Sharon Hilgenberg SKY Index Professional with Kamm Schreiner Embedded Indexing with Peg Mauer CD-ROM Indexing with X Bonnie Woods (New) **Sunday Morning Stretch .n Stride 5K Walk Run** (Canceled) For additional information, contact Sandi Schroeder at sanindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:03:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 10:11 AM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >Kate, > >It sounds like what you've run into is one of the more delicate situations >that we have to deal with frequently, and that is people (judges and >attorneys) who want to be able to practice law from the index. The index is >supposed to get them to the section, but we should not be setting out the >text of the statutes (or rules) in the index. Unfortunately, that's what >some clients want. ;;; There are certain terms of >art and jargon that if you have a law degree you just know to look for and >use. I only bring this up because actually, "absconding debtor" is one of >them. As a lawyer doing legal research, that's where I would look first. >Of course, if I didn't find it there I would then look under "debtors," but >I would be surprised if the term wasn't used as a main heading. You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, medicine, or any other industry, would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing what they have been taught/trained to do? Perhaps as a fill-in between jobs, but certainly not for a lengthy period of time ... So you can't have everything ! M. Jessie Barczak MJB Indexing Washington, D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:01:44 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: IndexJim@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Garbled messages In a message dated 4/30/1999 7:07:39 AM CST, skysoft@EROLS.COM writes: > I have another clue for the mystery of the garbled messages. Has anyone else > noticed that the garbled messages had the subject "Read: Subject area > Inquiry" and that the original message had a subject of simply "Subject area > Inquiry". Outlook 98 ads "Re: " to the subject of a message when it is being > replied to - not "Read: ". I don't know of *any* email program that ads > "Read: ". Is anyone familiar with an email program that does? MS Outlook add "Read: " to the subject of a message when the sender asks the system to tell the sender when the original message has been read. It also adds "Delivered: " when the sender asks the system to tell when the original message has been delivered. Jim Pilarski ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:38:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy << You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, medicine, or any other industry, would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing what they have been taught/trained to do? >> Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) Bonnie Taylor Attorney at home ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:40:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing Hi all, I have been following this thread, and I definitely lean toward proper names only in caps rather than the all caps style. Someone commented that the all caps style was more standard with medical books. I pulled down a couple of my medical books, and I could immediately see why this style is useful here. First, there are few proper names, so no confusion there. Second, one or two entire columns of subentries under one main is not unusual. One book I looked at had 3 columns on a page. When one of those long lists of subs rolls over to a second column, having them in lower case helps a reader differentiate them from the mains. It would be far better yet if they used "Main (continued)" at the top of the column, but they don't. I guess we can't have everything. Alan wrote: > > Then I had the embarrassing experience, at a book launch, when the launcher > publicly mistook one of my lower case entries for a subentry, and grossly > misreported what the index revealed about the book. > Well, there *is* one in every crowd.... ;-) I don't know if we can be made responsible for a reader that obuse when we write indexes. > So now I think you have to take the typographical appearance of the whole > index into account. When most of the entries are proper names (as often > happens in a book about literature, or art, or music, for instance) then it > can be a good idea to capitalise the concept entries too, so that they don't > get lost. > It seems to me that the concepts would be easier to pick out from the names if they were *not* capitalized. Typography could be an issue, but probably only if the puplisher picked an inappropriate font style for the index. Would be nice if we had some control over that, huh? Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:52:46 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kim Harris Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy In a message dated 30/04/99 16:40:31 GMT Daylight Time, Bonald@AOL.COM writes: << << You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, medicine, or any other industry, would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing what they have been taught/trained to do? >> Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) >> Me, too! There are a million reasons why I'd rather do this than practice law! Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:55:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, medicine, or any other industry, would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing what they have been taught/trained to do? Perhaps as a fill-in between jobs, but certainly not for a lengthy period of time ... So you can't have everything ! M. Jessie Barczak MJB Indexing Washington, D.C. Well, there are nine of us here who would disagree! :-) Lexis Law Publishing (formerly Michie) which primarily publishes state and federal code and other legal materials, requires that all indexers or Legal Analyst have law degrees precisely because you have to have a law degree in order to understand what you're reading. We are compensated for the law degree, but admittedly we don't make as much as we possibly could in private practice. However, you might be surprised. It is a common misconception that all lawyers make a lot of money. It's true that if you graduate from an well respected law school at the top of your class or choose to work for a big law firm you can do quite well. However, in order to make that kind of money (to clarify, I'm talking $75,000 a year or better), you have to be prepared to sell your soul to the firm. They require 60 and 70 hour weeks, which doesn't leave you a lot of time to enjoy all that money! If you choose to work as a prosecutor, government attorney or in Legal Aid, you may start off making less than $30,000 a year (for Legal Aid, maybe less that $25,000), and the same goes for practicing in a small or mid-size firm. Despite what you read about in the Wall Street Journal or see on television in L.A. Law, Ally McBeal or The Practice, 70% of the attorneys in the country work for small or mid-sized firms. Most of us choose this field because we are interested in publishing, but many of us have stumbled into it while seeking alternatives to the rat race that practicing law can be. For me, personally, it was a life style choice-- that is, I chose to have a life outside of work! :-) Interestingly, you would be amazed at the number of people (according to alumni polls, anyway) who are working in "alternative legal careers" (like publishing) or non-legal careers. I'm pretty sure that West, the biggest U.S. legal publisher also requires law degrees for many of their positions (at least they used to), and we also have a network of freelance indexers with law degrees who handle some of the outsourced work. Not all of the freelancers have law degrees, but many of them do, and most of the ones who deal with primary source materials do. Sorry for the lengthy diversion, but hey, I'm an attorney. Of course I'm going to try to set the record straight! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:56:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy Maybe we should start a support group! :-) -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Kim Harris [SMTP:KimIndex@AOL.COM] > Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 11:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy > > In a message dated 30/04/99 16:40:31 GMT Daylight Time, Bonald@AOL.COM > writes: > > << > << You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, > medicine, or any other industry, > would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be > practicing > what they have been taught/trained to do? >> > > Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) > >> > > Me, too! There are a million reasons why I'd rather do this than practice > law! > > Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:59:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy In a message dated 04/30/1999 11:40:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Bonald@AOL.COM writes: > << You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, > medicine, or any other industry, > would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing > what they have been taught/trained to do? >> > > Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) > Me too. (Sorry to break that list rule, just this once.) I turned to indexing because I was totally burned out as a veterinarian, and indexing is something I can do at home without many of the pressures of my previous work. Also, I will still be able to use my medical knowlege, and I am mentally suited to this type of work. Then, of course, veterinarians don't make the kind of money attorneys and physicians usually command; but no amount of money would have been enough to keep me working in my former situation. (And if you are wondering, yes, I do miss working with the pets & their owners -- a lot.) Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:07:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Adding workshops If you have already registered for the ASI conference and wish to add either "Polishing the Product" by Enid Zafran or "CD-ROM indexing, by X Bonnie Woods," simply send a note to the registrar at American Society of Indexers, P.O. Box 39366, Phoenix, AZ 85069-9366 stating what you want to add. Please include a check for $55. or the authorization to charge $55 to your charge card. There is no change fee for making this change. In previous years, we have had some individuals making numerous changes to their registrations. This caused a lot of extra work for our registrar. Therefore, I added a change fee this year to cover costs for handling the changes. There is also no change fee for adding an additional roundtable or workshop, only for making changes in what you have registered for. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:13:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 11:59 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 04/30/1999 11:40:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >Bonald@AOL.COM writes: > >> << You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, >> medicine, or any other industry, >> would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be >practicing >> what they have been taught/trained to do? >> >> >> Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) >> >Me too. (Sorry to break that list rule, just this once.) > >I turned to indexing because I was totally burned out as a veterinarian, and >indexing is something I can do at home without many of the pressures of my >previous work. Also, I will still be able to use my medical knowlege, and I >am mentally suited to this type of work. Then, of course, veterinarians don't >make the kind of money attorneys and physicians usually command; but no >amount of money would have been enough to keep me working in my former >situation. (And if you are wondering, yes, I do miss working with the pets & >their owners -- a lot.) > >Ann Truesdale > > Absolutely! I did not mean to imply that NOBODY who has a law degree would want to index for a living. It would be a great living for a retired person, or someone like yourself who is burned out. There are a lot of people with law degrees that do advocacy work for less money than a high-profile coporate lawyer, too! There is always something new to do and learn and the more education one has the more choices they have. That's why I believe in education! MJB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:24:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 11:38 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote: ><< You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, > medicine, or any other industry, > would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing > what they have been taught/trained to do? >> > >Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) > >Bonnie Taylor >Attorney at home > > That's another category of legal/medical/professional person who may want to do an index -- the mom who is not working fulltime on her professional job but working fulltime at her professional mom job! MJB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:41:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy -----Original Message----- From: Wright, Sharon F. >Lexis Law Publishing . . . requires that all indexers or Legal >Analyst have law degrees precisely because you have to have a law degree in >order to understand what you're reading. Maybe, maybe not. I have copyedited many, many books of law and on law, and I have more than once caught the law-degreed-writer or law-degreed-editor in an error in law. I have also indexed law books; my lawyer husband says that my indexes are superior to any others he has used in the legal field. He urged me to apply for a job at a legal publisher whose indexes he has found to be especially poor; however, the publisher hires only people with law degrees . . . Carol Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:53:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions In-Reply-To: <19990430162247Z41355-9788+89@edtnps03.telusplanet.net> M. Jessie Barczak wrote: > That's another category of legal/medical/professional person who may want > to do an index -- the mom who is not working fulltime on her professional > job but working fulltime at her professional mom job! I fall in this category too, for now. Sharon thought that my problems with the index stemmed from not having legal training. However, I'm afraid the cause must be located elsewhere. I do have a law degree; in fact, I passed the Bar as well, so I'm a lawyer, albeit non-practicing. "LLB" stands for Bachelor of Laws -- that is how a law degree is indicated in Commonwealth countries (I am a Canadian). My background is in legal education and research. Now that we've established that there may be a rationale for a lawyer to want to do indexing, can anyone offer some help with my immediate problem? I need to put together a solution by Monday -- not a whole new index by then, but a persuasive argument supporting some compromise between my index and the old one. I would also appreciate receiving some tips about practical strategies for doing the work efficiently. Thanks for the (professional!) consulting services. Kate Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB kwelsh@planet.eon.net Indexing - Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing Briefs - Legal materials - Manuals - Plain language materials - Policies ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:56:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 11:38 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote: ><< You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, > medicine, or any other industry, > would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing > what they have been taught/trained to do? >> > >Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) > >Bonnie Taylor >Attorney at home Lots of people, and not just the retired or stay-at-home: it's a question of what you place value in. With my Masters in ChemE and all but the paperwork for the PhD I could be making 75-100K with benefits in industry. For me, the benefits of what I do so outweigh money it's not even funny; going back would be like trying to put toothpaste back in a tube. I sit at bars all the time and have guys working for Uncle Dupey (DuPont) literally almost crying about the stress of the ax hanging over their heads 24/7, which is now the standard reality in industry. They beg me to teach them the ropes of getting started at what we indexers do. As predicted by the Law of Unintended Consequences the era of downsizing has resulted in a completely new ethos in the American Workplace. (this is no original idea on my part; all sorts of studies point to a sea-change in worker attitudes) Morale is nonexistent in many professional jobs anymore; people are running on fear and adrenalin. Partly as a result according to a book I indexed last year employee theft of laptop computers from corporate America now eclipses the economic volume of stolen automobiles. This fact just blows my mind. I have all kinds of 9-5 acquintances who think since I'm self-employed I'm a good guy to call when they need to have their car taken in for an oil change, etc. I say "sure man no problem. I charge $ 40/hr starting from when I leave my house". They then have the gall to get all mad at me; that feeling alone: of pointing out the infinite value of time, is worth a solid 20K a year to me. When my daughter calls in the afternoon and says "Dad can you pick me up at the High School after softball practice" I love to be able to say "sure sweety no problem" without having to sweat some pointy haired Dilbert boss. Knowing that despite yuppie hopes to the contrary it is indeed QUANTITY of time with your kids that matters and not QUALITY: Another 20K. When my friends call and say "Kevin we're gonna go backpacking, or caving, or whatever", I love to be able to take a 3 or 4 day weekend if I can swing it, even if I have to bring some work to mark up around the campfire at night, without having to check how many vacation days I have left. Another solid 20K. Being paid to learn all sorts of incredible things, maintaining a childlike sense of wonder at the universe: almost priceless. Living my life in the here and now instead of working for 50 years just for the hope of being able to have a life _after_ I retire: PRICELESS. [apology to 9-5er indexers out there: I don't think any less of your choices in life; I just wanted to show that there are things that at least some people value as much if not more than money, that help to make up for the negatives of the self-employed life] Just my pittance 2 cents worth Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:12:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy "-----Original Message----- From: Wright, Sharon F. >Lexis Law Publishing . . . requires that all indexers or Legal >Analyst have law degrees precisely because you have to have a law degree in >order to understand what you're reading. Carol Kennedy replied: Maybe, maybe not. I have copyedited many, many books of law and on law, and I have more than once caught the law-degreed-writer or law-degreed-editor in an error in law. I have also indexed law books; my lawyer husband says that my indexes are superior to any others he has used in the legal field. He urged me to apply for a job at a legal publisher whose indexes he has found to be especially poor; however, the publisher hires only people with law degrees . . ." I would have to agree. Legal publishing may be fooling itself (I will withhold comments on Lexis-Nexis products). I have often run into this opinion regarding Law Librarians, but luckily not so far in my indexing. I had a major run-in with a lawyer in our offices who swore a non-lawyer could not run a law library (I ran a branch library for 3 years for Arizona's second largest firm and received no complaints). In indexing and librarianship the problem is the same for any subject area, knowing the language. It does not take a lawyer to index legal materials any more than it takes a nuclear physicist to index those materials. Knowledge of the language of the subject and some familiarity of the major issues are all that is needed and these can be picked up fairly easily. Brian M. Peck Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:12:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Legal Index - Suggestions Sorry, Kate, I didn't notice the LLB. I do know what it stands for, but that's what I get for being to quick on the trigger finger. My fault. As for solutions, what I was trying (not very helpfully, obviously) to suggest was to try to salvage some of the main headings from the old index to beef up your existing index. Also, your suggestion of taking some of the subheadings, bumping them up to main heading and then filling them out is an excellent way to proceed. I wouldn't hesitate to dual post or even triple post. As for estimating, a lot depends on how much revision they want done. Extensive revising could take almost as long as the initial creation, so I would estimate based on that, but other freelancers may be able to give you a better idea of what kind of time you should negotiate for. As for the space concerns of your publisher, could you make your index double columns? That would significantly reduce page count. I agree with the statement in your initial posting that having the old index to go by would have been useful before you constructed the new one, but unfortunately that doesn't help now. It sounds like you and the judges had radically different expectations about what the finished product should look like which always makes matters difficult. The fact that their model seems to be oddly worded and organized doesn't help much, either. Good luck, and let us know how it goes. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:56:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Re: Cindex importing In-Reply-To: <199904300512.BAA11406@beryl.ils.unc.edu> Kathy, There are several ways to to this. Since you have been given a concordance, should I assume that there are no subheadings? If this is the case, then what I recommend doing is this. In Word, select all (CTRL-A), then open up Excel. Click the top sell and paste (CTRL-V). Now, go to the file menu, and SAVE AS, the dialog box which appears will have a drop down menu toward the bottom (Save as type). Select Tab Delimited. Now you are set. The document will be save as a .txt file and you should be able to import this into Cindex w/ not problem. Let me know if this doesn't work-- or if you have subheadings in the concordance. --Ilana Kingsley ***************************************** * Kingsley Indexing Services * * 125 Olive Branch Church Road * * Roxboro, NC 27573 * * inewby@beryl.ils.unc.edu * * http://www.indexpup.com * * (336) 597-5380 * ***************************************** On Sun, 2 May 1999, Kathy Paparchontis wrote: > Hi All, > > I was given a concordance, made in MSWord 97, and > am to turn this into an index. All of these words must > appear in the index. > > The problem I am having is trying to figure out > how to import the list into Cindex. In the handbook it says > to import records make with a word-processor to choose Tab > Separated from the Files of type drop-down list. > > Well, I can't find Tab Separated. Maybe I'm just tired. > > I'd appreciate any help. > > Thanks, > kathy paparchontis > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:41:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions In-Reply-To: <199904301650.JAA20195@mail.mcn.org> Kate wrote: >Now that we've established that there may be a rationale for a lawyer to >want to do indexing, can anyone offer some help with my immediate problem? I >need to put together a solution by Monday -- not a whole new index by then, >but a persuasive argument supporting some compromise between my index and >the old one. Sharon touched on this a bit but you didn't come back to it at all, and that is about the issue of stating the content of the law. I was mentored as a law indexer for Matthew Bender about 9 years ago; the mentoring program was slashed when they were purchased and downsized (I was chosen specifically because they wanted to find out about non-lawyers doing their indexing). There was an absolute rule about not stating the law in the index, only the subject of the law, and this was based not just on prudence, if I recall correctly, but on suits brought against publishers when the index (allegedly?) failed to state the law correctly. If the old index contains statements of law, this argument may be one that could help you in creating a compromise index. We double posted everything, and triple posted nearly everything. It seems to me that law is an area in which every subentry is also a main entry; that was certainly our practice at M. B., and that practice accounts for the length of law indexes in great part, at least in my experience. Best, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:46:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Hamlet on Errata Dear collective wisdom (or angst) - A couple of things: First, I'd like to commend Sharon Wright and Kevin Mulrooney on their thoughtful postings re lawyers, et al, and indexing. Of course, Sharon, Index-L is our support group... Second, now that we're so nicely warmed up, I thought that I'd catch the starlings on the wing with another topic (one that has been touched on before, I believe): How do you deal with errata in the text, especially errors that don't affect the index, or that you can work around, but that should be corrected? This often is a difficult judgment call. I feel uncomfortable, in conscience, not mentioning something, because I believe that it is unfair not to bring a problem to an editor's attention. On the other hand, a book is so far downstream by the time I get it that it usually is too late to change anything much (or anything at all!). Books about to go to press are like love affairs that are ending - - those moving on to the next adventure want them Over With as quickly and with as little fuss as possible. Indexers don't get paid to copyedit. Personalities and pressures intrude... In researching this question,. I discovered that there is an historical precedent. In a recently-discovered Shakespeare folio, Hamlet addresses this question: "To say something or not to say something, That is the question! Whether 'tis nobler just to let it go or, By sending strings of errata, Irritate your editor, That overworked, overstressed critter Who has enough to do without your carping notes, And, by so doing, Lose many points, indeed!" I look forward to hearing from you. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:52:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 11:41 AM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Wright, Sharon F. >>Lexis Law Publishing . . . requires that all indexers or Legal >>Analyst have law degrees precisely because you have to have a law degree in >>order to understand what you're reading. > >Maybe, maybe not. I have copyedited many, many books of law and on law, and >I have more than once caught the law-degreed-writer or law-degreed-editor in >an error in law. I have also indexed law books; my lawyer husband says that >my indexes are superior to any others he has used in the legal field. He >urged me to apply for a job at a legal publisher whose indexes he has found >to be especially poor; however, the publisher hires only people with law >degrees . . . > >Carol Kennedy > > Yeah, it hurts don't it? MJB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:55:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions - Lengthy At 12:56 PM 4/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:38 AM 4/30/99 EDT, you wrote: >><< You are absolutely right, but of course, what degreed person in law, >> medicine, or any other industry, >> would want to work on an index for a pittance when they could be practicing >> what they have been taught/trained to do? >> >> >>Me, for one! Well, except for that "pittance" part anyway. :) >> >>Bonnie Taylor >>Attorney at home > >Lots of people, and not just the retired or stay-at-home: it's a question of >what you place value in. With my Masters in ChemE and all but the paperwork >for the PhD I could be making 75-100K with benefits in industry. For me, >the benefits of what I do so outweigh money it's not even funny; going back >would be like trying to put toothpaste back in a tube. > ... When my friends call and say "Kevin we're gonna go >backpacking, or caving, or whatever", I love to be able to take a 3 or 4 day >weekend if I can swing it, even if I have to bring some work to mark up >around the campfire at night, without having to check how many vacation days >I have left. Another solid 20K. Being paid to learn all sorts of >incredible things, maintaining a childlike sense of wonder at the universe: >almost priceless. Living my life in the here and now instead of working for >50 years just for the hope of being able to have a life _after_ I retire: >PRICELESS. > >[apology to 9-5er indexers out there: I don't think any less of your choices >in life; I just wanted to show that there are things that at least some >people value as much if not more than money, that help to make up for the >negatives of the self-employed life] > >Just my pittance 2 cents worth >Kevin Mulrooney Hear-hear, Kevin! MJB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:33:55 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Read: Subject area Inquiry In-Reply-To: > I don't think Ms Garten meant either to offend or to address the group in > a language other that English. It would have been more helpful to caution > about accidentally pasting into the body of an email message something > that isn't ASCII text. > Are these coded messages actually coming from the people they appear to be coming from? I have had one apparently from Jonathan Jermey. I am wondering if the list server has been hacked in some way. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:44:04 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Question re: capitalizing Since everyone else has chimed in on this one, here goes... The packager for my current book (textbook) insists on caps for all main heads, lowercase for subs (except proper nouns). She says that in cases where there are 20 or 30 subheads (like in this book), it becomes difficult to tell if you are in subs or main heads without the capitalization, as you scan down and up columns./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 14:21:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Welsh Subject: Re: Legal Index - Suggestions In-Reply-To: <19990430171551Z41117-22542+68@edtnps03.telusplanet.net> Many thanks to Victoria and Sharon for their very helpful comments. I'll let you all know how it turns out. Kate Kate Welsh, BA(English), LLB kwelsh@planet.eon.net Indexing - Research - Substantive editing - Stylistic editing - Writing Briefs - Legal materials - Manuals - Plain language materials - Policies ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 16:35:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions You got it, Victoria! That's precisely the issue that we ran into as well (liability for misstating the law). For liability (and good indexing practice) reasons we had to revise a lot of our old indexes, and many of our customers didn't like it. The WANTED to be able to practice law from the index! Oh, well. Can't please everyone. -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Victoria Baker [SMTP:vbaker@MCN.ORG] > Sent: Friday, April 30, 1999 2:41 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Legal Index - Problems & Questions > > Kate wrote: > >Now that we've established that there may be a rationale for a lawyer to > >want to do indexing, can anyone offer some help with my immediate > problem? I > >need to put together a solution by Monday -- not a whole new index by > then, > >but a persuasive argument supporting some compromise between my index and > >the old one. > > Sharon touched on this a bit but you didn't come back to it at all, and > that is about the issue of stating the content of the law. I was mentored > as a law indexer for Matthew Bender about 9 years ago; the mentoring > program was slashed when they were purchased and downsized (I was chosen > specifically because they wanted to find out about non-lawyers doing their > indexing). There was an absolute rule about not stating the law in the > index, only the subject of the law, and this was based not just on > prudence, if I recall correctly, but on suits brought against publishers > when the index (allegedly?) failed to state the law correctly. If the old > index contains statements of law, this argument may be one that could help > you in creating a compromise index. > > We double posted everything, and triple posted nearly everything. It seems > to me that law is an area in which every subentry is also a main entry; > that was certainly our practice at M. B., and that practice accounts for > the length of law indexes in great part, at least in my experience. > > Best, > Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:17:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Newby" question Subject: Re: "Newby" question At 11:27 AM 4/29/99 -0700, you wrote: >I would love to see what percentage of us on the list do embedded indexing, >and of those who do embed, how much of our work entails it. For me it would >be about 50% of my work, with another 40% of my work being online indexing, >and only about 10% of my work being standalone indexing. 100% of my indexing work is for computer documentation (mostly software). Last year, it was as follows: Embedded (Frame): 45% Standalone: 40% Embedded (Word): 10% Online help: 5% So far this year, I'm doing more standalone and embedded Frame indexes, and less online help and embedded Word indexes. Karin