Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9908A" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 08:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Third levels subentries, etc In-Reply-To: <001f01bedbad$82182c40$42b5cdcf@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nina, I'll just tackle number 4, How much info. to put. What I do is while I'm entering, I always put in the extra info as a subentry. Later when I edit (and I edit as I go along, so that by the time I do a final edit it usually takes only 3 or 4 hours), if I find that a main entry has only 1-4 subentries, and those subentries only have one page locator, then I'll take them all out. I find it easier to take them out later than find out I have a main entry and getting up toward 5 or more locators. Examples Entry phase automatic variables returning pointers to, 2, 6 and then there never is another mention of automatic variables Final edit automatic variables, 2, 6 But: automatic variables returning pointers to, 2, 6 and something else, 4, 7 and another thing, 9 and one more and in alpha order of course, 11, 23-28 would be left as is in the final edit but automatic variables returning pointers to, 2 and something else, 4 and another thing, 9 and one more and in alpha order of course, 11 would end up as automatic variables, 2, 3, 9, 11 I would be annoyed at myself if on the final edit I found this: automatic variables, 2, 4, 6, 9, 23-28, 30 and had to go back it to find subentry topics. Does this make any sense? Does it help? Rachel 4. How much information should an index entry provide? (I was not given a size limit for the entries). I was having this difficulty mostly on main entries w/ no subentries. For example, the topic "Don't return pointers to automatic variables". Would you index this as "automatic variables", or "automatic variables, returning pointers to". Or "Making sure a structure size stays within bounds." This could be "structure size" or "structure size, staying within bounds." Thanks, Nina Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Third levels subentries, etc On Sat, 31 Jul 1999 17:36:21 -0600 Nina Forrest writes: > >I am doing my first "for pay" index (I did one previously, but only = >updated the page numbers) and it is raising various questions. I'd = >appreciate the prevailing wisdom on the following: > Hi Nina, There are no hard and fast rules to apply to any of your questions - the answers all depend on the big picture - type of book, audience, depth of the subject, etc. Third level entries have their place in an index - I use them all the time on the science and engineering books I index. The books I don't use them on are the trade books I sometimes do. They just don't need that much analysis. If the book you are doing now has chapters broken into sections and subsections, I think you will need a main heading, subheading, and sub-sub headings to present the information well without using long page ranges. >2. When is it useful to put page numbers on the main entry when there >= >are also subentries? Some people argue that this provides quick, useful information. I think it is redundant if the main heading page range is completely covered by the subheadings. If you put a 10 or 15 page locator range next to the main heading, you're not helping the reader much - that's alot of pages to leaf through. I would only put page numbers by the main heading if that page is not covered by a subhead (maybe it's extremely general introduction that you just can't put a qualifying term in front of). >3. Is a See cross-reference from a subentry acceptable? I think >Mulvaney = >says it's not a good idea. Well, if you have a lot of information to present, it makes sense to use a subhead see reference instead of crowding everything together. What if that subhead appears as a main heading with subheads of it's own? If you didn't use a see reference, you would have to consolidate all those subheads into one long line of locators. Then you aren't helping the reader very much. >4. How much information should an index entry provide? (I was not >given = >a size limit for the entries). I was having this difficulty mostly on >= >main entries w/ no subentries. For example, the topic "Don't return = >pointers to automatic variables". Would you index this as "automatic >= >variables", or "automatic variables, returning pointers to". Or >"Making = >sure a structure size stays within bounds." This could be "structure = >size" or "structure size, staying within bounds." =20 Be succinct without being cryptic! If the only reference to "structure size" in the whole index is about staying within bounds, I think "structure size, staying within bounds" helps the reader who wants to know all the book has to say about structure size. (I know many indexers will chime in and vote for "structure size" alone as the entry, but this is what I would do!) Hope I'm making sense! - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:59:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Marking pages versus entering directly In-Reply-To: <199908010409.AAA27096@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I began experimenting with not marking concepts when I realized that it was >taking an inordinate amount of time. In essence, I was working out all the >phrasing, etc., and writing it out in the margins, then typing that in >later. During the typing phase, I ended up re-reading and re-thinking my >entries, so the typing took no less time than the original marking phase. >Incidentally, I was really nervous about trying this (not marking text) so >I waited until I had a dead-easy children's activity book to index for a >publisher I had worked with before. Kara has described perfectly my own evolution to not marking up, except that the easy book I tried it on wasn't a children's book. Nowadays, as I'm keying terms in, I underline the phrase on the page, without worrying about whether it matches what I typed in and without writing anything else on the page. That has made it easier for me to find it if I have to go back (e.g., to break down a long locator string), and it doesn't seem to take longer. The key timesaver for me was finding a method that prevented me (well, almost) from editing the index to death while making my way through the book. If I hadn't discovered that I had that expensive habit, I might not have experimented with not marking up in the first place. Ann Truesdale wrote: >How do you make the tick marks without interfering with >typing? If you happen to have three arms (which seems to me >would be a great asset to anybody ) or a method of >holding a pen in your mouth, fine. Otherwise, you have to >pick up pen, make tick, put down pen, resume typing, etc. I >have been trying typing entries for a page and then going >back to mark what I have entered. How do others manage this? > I actually do hold a pen in my mouth or stick it behind my ear while I type. Then I underline a few phrases at a time. Do Mi I'd love to hear more about the gizmo that keeps the pen in or on your hand. Sometimes I wish I could be like Inspector Gadget. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Third levels subentries, etc In-Reply-To: <199908010409.AAA27096@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >1. Even if the publisher allows third-level entries, is it more usable = >for the reader to have them or is it better to separate the would-be = >third level entries and make them main and secondary entries? (Hope this = >is clear w/o an example.) I think it's easier for the reader if you go down only to the subentry level, which is practically necessary anyway if your client wants a run-in index. For literary criticism, I'll sometimes unclude a third level for "works." You can usually get by with just two levels by adding modifiers to main entries. For example, this (warning: example from a not-yet-edited index): Latin America as "distant neighbors" of United States vision of history in Latin American literature about dictators and European culture and Latin American history/identity transformation between 1890 and 1900 Latin American writers in Paris U.S. inspiration for U.S. literature read by writing in English instead of this: Latin America as "distant neighbors" of United States literature of about dictators and European culture and Latin American history/identity transformation between 1890 and 1900 vision of history in writers in in Paris U.S. inspiration for U.S. literature read by writing in English > >2. When is it useful to put page numbers on the main entry when there = >are also subentries? I looked a sample index provided by the publisher = >and also tried to analyze Nancy Mulvaney's book, but I couldn't discern = >a clear pattern. Sometimes it seemed that the page numbers on the main = >entry indicated a long discussion of a topic, other times it was a = >single point about the topic, which would seem to me should be another = >subentry.=20 Yes, certainly for long discussions. If there's a 20-page discussion of a subject, I'll want that page range with the main heading but will also break it down into subs. There are two other times when I might have individual page numbers with a main heading even though I have subs: (1) when the discussion is so warm and fuzzy that I really can't come up with a subentry phrase (I'm not lazy about this; I do try) and (2) when I'm up against a length limit and I see subs with only one locator, in which case I'll often leave subs that have more than one locator but retain only the locator for the others. > =20 >3. Is a See cross-reference from a subentry acceptable? I think Mulvaney = >says it's not a good idea. I use them, although not often. I think it can be clearer to the reader to do this: Netherlands Catholic Southern, 29, 56n.69 defense forces in, 25-29, 31 (see also civic guards) than this: Netherlands Catholic Southern, 29, 56n.69 defense forces in, 25-29, 31 See also civic guards Doing it the second way, the reader knows only that there's more info about the Netherlands under "civic guards," but the first way, they get the hint that the civic guards are a type of defense force, which they may need to know when they get to those pages in the text. I decide on a case-by-case basis which way I think will be more useful to the reader. > >4. How much information should an index entry provide? (I was not given = >a size limit for the entries). I was having this difficulty mostly on = >main entries w/ no subentries. For example, the topic "Don't return = >pointers to automatic variables". Would you index this as "automatic = >variables", or "automatic variables, returning pointers to". Or "Making = >sure a structure size stays within bounds." This could be "structure = >size" or "structure size, staying within bounds." I tend to keep entries paired down. When you tell readers what page the discussion of authomatic variables is on, you (usually) don't also need to tell them what it says about them there. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:24:40 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Enter without marking up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you enter without marking up, how do you cope with topics that go over a number of different pages (but do not have a section heading to show this). Do you find a topic on one page, and then always look on the next page to see whether it goes on? Or do you just enter page at a time, andcombine things as necessary (ie if a topic does go over a few pages). Glenda. (I'm going to try this method again next index). =================================== Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Indexing, PC Training, Web Page Authoring http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey jonjermey@hermes.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:14:57 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Indexing demand, and divinity In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What an enticing subject line! I have been told (in Sydney) that there is a shortage of good legal indexers, but I have not heard it of general indexing. Glenda. > In particular, that publishers are complaining of a shortage of good > indexers. >> > > Pretty common, usually in the field of scholarly indexing of social > sciences/humanities books. I also often get calls from scholarly authors > looking for an indexer; sometimes they've been through a list of 10-12 > experienced indexers, all of whom are too busy to take the job. > > On a lighter note, a client called me a goddess the other day. Isn't that > nice? And all I did was agree to take a job next month! So be heartened, > beginners--get good and reliable, and you too can be divine! > > Do Mi > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:32:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: Third levels subentries, etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01BEDDDE.86B464C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BEDDDE.86B464C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nina: As usual, the answer to your question on 3rd level entries is, "it = depends." If there are only a few such in the entire index, I see no = problem with the occasional third level. Is the book aimed at scholarly = readers who understand how to interpret the third level? For one book I = did, the index format was entirely my decision. I made up a page of = sample entries with 3rd level headings and the same entries with the = second level repeated several times in a row to keep the index to two = levels only. I took the page to my other job and asked colleagues which = they preferred. I was very surprised to find that some people (even = college graduates) found the third indentation confusing and did not = appreciate how it related to the main entry. Two levels were definitely = preferred, which was in line with what I had been taught in the = classroom. Jeanne Moody -----Original Message----- From: Nina Forrest To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Saturday, July 31, 1999 7:57 PM Subject: Third levels subentries, etc I am doing my first "for pay" index (I did one previously, but only = updated the page numbers) and it is raising various questions. I'd = appreciate the prevailing wisdom on the following: =20 1. Even if the publisher allows third-level entries, is it more usable = for the reader to have them or is it better to separate the would-be = third level entries and make them main and secondary entries? (Hope this = is clear w/o an example.) =20 2. When is it useful to put page numbers on the main entry when there = are also subentries? I looked a sample index provided by the publisher = and also tried to analyze Nancy Mulvaney's book, but I couldn't discern = a clear pattern. Sometimes it seemed that the page numbers on the main = entry indicated a long discussion of a topic, other times it was a = single point about the topic, which would seem to me should be another = subentry.=20 =20 3. Is a See cross-reference from a subentry acceptable? I think Mulvaney = says it's not a good idea. =20 =20 4. How much information should an index entry provide? (I was not given = a size limit for the entries). I was having this difficulty mostly on = main entries w/ no subentries. For example, the topic "Don't return = pointers to automatic variables". Would you index this as "automatic = variables", or "automatic variables, returning pointers to". Or "Making = sure a structure size stays within bounds." This could be "structure = size" or "structure size, staying within bounds." =20 =20 Thanks, Nina =20 Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BEDDDE.86B464C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nina:
 
As usual, the answer to your = question on 3rd=20 level entries is, "it depends."  If there are only a few = such in=20 the entire index, I see no problem with the occasional third = level.  Is the=20 book aimed at scholarly readers who understand how to interpret the = third=20 level?  For one book I did,  the index format was entirely my=20 decision.  I made up a page of sample entries with 3rd level = headings and=20 the same entries with the second level repeated several times in a row = to keep=20 the index to two levels only.  I took the page to my other job and = asked=20 colleagues which they preferred.  I was very surprised to find that = some=20 people (even college graduates) found the third indentation confusing = and did=20 not appreciate how it related to the main entry.  Two levels were=20 definitely preferred, which was in line with what I had been taught in = the=20 classroom.
 
Jeanne Moody
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Nina Forrest <ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM>
T= o: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMT= ON.EDU=20 <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMT= ON.EDU>
Date:=20 Saturday, July 31, 1999 7:57 PM
Subject: Third levels = subentries,=20 etc

I am doing my first "for = pay" index (I=20 did one previously, but only updated the page numbers) and it is raising = various=20 questions. I'd appreciate the prevailing wisdom on the = following:
 
1. Even if the publisher allows third-level entries, = is it=20 more usable for the reader to have them or is it better to separate the = would-be=20 third level entries and make them main and secondary entries? (Hope this = is=20 clear w/o an example.)
 
2. When is it useful to put page numbers on the main = entry=20 when there are also subentries? I looked a sample index provided by the=20 publisher and also tried to analyze Nancy Mulvaney's book, but I = couldn't=20 discern a clear pattern. Sometimes it seemed that the page numbers on = the main=20 entry indicated a long discussion of a topic, other times it was a = single point=20 about the topic, which would seem to me should be another subentry.=20
   
3. Is a See cross-reference from a subentry = acceptable? I=20 think Mulvaney says it's not a good=20 idea.           &n= bsp;          =20
 
4. How much information should an = index entry=20 provide? (I was not given a size limit for the entries). I was having = this=20 difficulty mostly on main entries w/ no subentries. For example, the = topic=20 "Don't return pointers to automatic variables".  Would = you index=20 this as "automatic variables", or "automatic variables, = returning=20 pointers to". Or "Making sure a structure size stays within=20 bounds." This could be "structure size" or = "structure size,=20 staying within bounds."  
 
Thanks,
Nina
 
Nina Forrest
Looking Up Indexing = Service 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BEDDDE.86B464C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:59:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Mulvaney MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone wrote: Could someone keep a list of how many times one of us uses Mulvaney instead of Mulvany? I did it at least twice until someone sent me a nice note off list. I find it rather amusing, once I got over being utterly embarassed. Not to start a flame war! I'm just tickled and probably should be keeping it to myself. Paula Durbin-Westby, sending this after proofreading thrice ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:34:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Happy 99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just had this one. I think it's the one that changed the name of my hard drive to "Groovie." McAfee found and got rid of it (after I ran out and bought McAfee, finally...!) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:52:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, first of all, I'm leaving for a long vacation in two days. Before I go I already have to finish editing and send off a very long index whose pages changed a whole lot; the revised pages were supposed to come a month ago and arrived on Friday. The editor told me to leave it till after vacation if necessary (bless him!) but I need the money for it, so was planning to try and finish. Then today I got an email from the editor of a scholarly index I mailed last week, with a list of the first batch of changes the author wants made in it. I had a list of concepts from her that was only somewhat helpful because she listed quite a few concepts that, although they're the hottest topics in her field, were not discussed in the book. Her list of changes (which she says is only the first one; she's planning to do another pass through the index) includes a couple of typos in the index (mea culpa!), some wording changes (to words I don't think work as well as mine, but that's fine), and three topics from her list that she wants indexed even though I didn't find them in the text. The editor, new to me though client is an established one, forwarded the list to me expecting me to make the changes she wants, including the next list, which I shrink to find out about. He also expects me to deal directly with her, which of course sometimes works fine but in this case is likely to be a nightmare. I hate this! It happens every once in a while, and I always hate it. I think I made a decent index for this book, which is a collection of essays and therefore by nature on the disjointed side and leading to a somewhat disjointed index. I had to make a lot of judgement and wording calls. I'm feeling defensive now, can you tell? I don't have time (not to mention inclination) to re-index the book with the author instructing me at every step; that's not something I ever agree to do anyway. In fact, I'm not sure I have time to read through the text looking for the contexts of the topics she thinks are in there so I can demonstrate that they're not in there! What happens to me in this situation is that I start second-guessing my indexing and wondering if I missed an entire large concept. Every other time this kind of thing has happened, though, I was right the first time and the author is spinning dreams, so I try to trust myself. Okay, here's my plan of action so far: --go through her list and change the little wording things --decide whether or not to spend the evening trying to find justifications for not putting in the things she thinks are there (and making sure I'm not crazy). Maybe I can find a reference or two to make her happy; that sometimes helps a lot. --call the editor tomorrow. Tell him I'm going on vacation; author changes are usually carried out between the author and the editor, with me available to clarify my reasons if necessary (though that almost never happens); the additions she wants to the index are not reasonable (guess I'd better be able to back that up). Advise him to thank her for finding the typos, agree to the wording changes she wants, and talk to her about how indexing is a subjective process and when you hire a professional indexer you get that indexer's judgement, and that if she wants to create new categories she can do that (if it's okay with him). (I would say all of this very very politely, of course!) What do you think? Should I be staying up all night reindexing this book? Should I start explaining indexing process to the author via email? Any advice or sympathy welcome. Do Mi, planning to make myself feel better by reading the file where I keep notes of praise for my indexes... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:22:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/2/99 10:59:54 PM EST, DStaub11@aol.com writes: << What do you think? Should I be staying up all night reindexing this book? Should I start explaining indexing process to the author via email? >> Do Mi-- I'm up late tonight for many of the same reasons: *supposed* to be leaving on vacation Saturday, received revised proofs Friday for the first chapter of an index for which I had never been told there would be revised proofs (yes, I was just about finished with the index), an author decided he didn't like an interview that I been working on putting together in some sort of decent shape from a mumbled tape-recording--just two weeks before a final publishable interview needs to be ready for a magazine, etc. So you have my sympathy. Here's my advice: I hope by now you've decided *not* to stay up all night reindexing this book. TRUST YOUR JUDGMENT! The author is the expert in her field, and you're the expert in yours -- indexing. Diplomatically explaining some points to the author by e-mail probably wouldn't hurt and may even help. Definitely proceed with your "call the editor" plan! Hang in there... -- Teddy D. Teddy Diggs DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES dtdiggs@aol.com phone: 501-771-1727 fax: 501-771-1731 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:42:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do Mi, Trust your professional judgment, and don't give in to doing this rush work gratis, please! You did your best job. Your experience is long, your credentials impeccable. I have a client who has me handling repagination and layout changes at the last minute on foreign language medical indexes (in Spanish). I caved in on the first book, and "ate" the time, since it didn't take more than a few hours total. I shouldn't have, but I did. I did it again and again. This time, the 4th such book, it was the job from hell, for the editor, for her supervisor, and for me. All of us have suffered. When the re-folioed pages kept arriving and the time was mounting up, I started feeling bad, taken advantage of. I jotted an email and told the supervisor that normally my rate is figured without any dealing with re-folioing, that I had done so with her, and was being graceful until now in doing this at no cost. But that based on the 10 hrs I had spent so far, and anticipating it would take another 5-10 hours, I wanted her approval to submit an additional invoice for time spent at my hourly rate of $X (and not low, either). I received a very understanding note back offering to pay me for an additional 15 hours at the rate I requested. A win-win situation for all. She knew that I was accommodating her tight timeframe and working hard. I knew she valued what I was doing. So ...... my take on your situation is that their emergency doesn't make it *your* emergency. I would offer to make those changes and any others that come along .... when I got back from vacation, and billable at your hourly rate. I would invoice them now for the index as submitted, if you haven't already done so, so that your invoice gets into the Accounts Payable loop now, and then ask to be paid the additional for time spent handling this additional work. The poor editor is caught between a crazy author and you, with her job on the line. She's between a rock and a hard place. This will give her an "out", albeit one that costs money. At the least, it may motivate her to be creative and get the author to back down. And at worst, the author will have to pay for this out of his/her royalties, which'll teach him/her a lesson about fooling with the index! If the author wants changes, it'll cost him/her. Or the editor will do the work, not you. I can't see any other graceful way out of this situation. Your index was undoubtedly adequate and of high quality. The author is entitled to see it his/her way, too. No fault stuff. Please don't personalize it and feel inadequate. It happens. When it happened to me, I told the editor (another situation, not the one above) that I didn't want to deal directly with the author, and she did that. One l-o-o-o-n-n-g memo of requested changes was enough for me. She handled it from then on. I hope this has helped, DoMi. Go and have a good vacation, and I hope it all works out for you. Best, Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 05:16:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KimIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Do Mi Yes, I'd suggest e-mailing the author (cc editor) with your views of what she's asking you (which seems to me to be thoroughly unreasonable not to say bizarre (how can you index something that's not in the book!) and point out that you've done the work in the timescale set and now you have no time before your holiday to do anything except the small changes. You could take a risk and say that you're willing to make the rest of the 'reasonable' changes (those that can be made easily) whilst you're away if you can find an Internet cafe to e-mail them to her (this IS a big risk because you'd (I'd!) be hoping that they would feel guilty and tell you not but still feel you were putting yourself out. And I'd also point out the extra charges; sometimes I fnd publishers want these far-reaching changes to be made for nothing. This situation is a nightmare. I've had a few authors coming up with a list of topics after I thought the book was done and dusted weeks before. I suppose they go through your index and it gives them all sorts of ideas. They don't seem to realise that you've already been booked up by then and picking out the odd word here and there (which is normally what it involves) is almost as time-consuming as doing the original index. I hate it when authors get involved (well, to be fair, I've had a few good experiences and they mainly leave you to it). Good luck, Do Mi and enjoy your hols! Kim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 05:27:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KimIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I work at home and most of us do.I've just moved to a new flat in London. There's a young man downstairs who only seems to work now and then. The rest of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk (which I can't move for various reasons). We've spoken to him three times now. He always apologises then does it again. Do I just put up with it? Kim (boom chukka boom chukka boom) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: Re: author's changes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Do Mi - This happened to me last year. I had received a huge concordance-type list of topics/keywords/etc from the author prior to indexing a scholarly book and remained somewhat in touch with him regarding conceptual things while I was working. (That was actually a first, and it turned out to be quite a nice thing to have a relationship with the author to clarify concepts, etc.) However, I really paid little attention to his list throughout my development and entry phase; so much of it was absent from the actual text! Then when I had done the index, laudatory comments from the author, in writing, but with the expectation that he would be "adding to the index." The editor let me know that the author did make some changes, but did not ask me to manage them and did not ask for a re-submission. I tried not to have an ego-involvement at that stage and haven't seen the published index. In light of your comments, I am very grateful for receiving stronger intervention than you are getting from your editor. Definitely hope you did not stay up all night re-indexing, but I commiserate with how it makes one start second-guessing a completed work. Did I miss something important? Was that concept covered and I blinked on that page? Yuk. Stick with the structure you've created and follow your plan; I think it's tactful and professional. I don't think it's helpful to start explaining the indexing process to the author, blinded somewhat at this stage by the desire to see the book finally in print and the tendency to believe it contains a bit more than it does. Have a great vacation ! Barbara********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:28:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Do Mi writes: > What do you think? Should I be staying up all > night reindexing this book? > Should I start explaining indexing process to the > author via email? Any > advice or sympathy welcome. I haven't much advice... but lots of sympathy. I spent 4 hours with a client yesterday, after agreeing to go over and pick up some changed page proofs (not something I usually do). So here's what we did: Went through the ENTIRE BOOK, page by page (164 of 'em) with him saying, "Have you got this?" and me replying, "Yup," or "No, that didn't seem significant enough to index; it's just a mention of where the guy went to school," or "No, but I can add if you really want it. Remember our size constraints," and him saying, "Oh I don't think these few things will add much to the size of the index. Do you have this one?" "Yup." After about two hours we finished. I said, "Thanks. I really need to go now." "Oh," says he, "I wanted to go through the names index before you leave; just real quick." "OK," I agree reluctantly, "*real* quick; I really need to go." So we proceeded to go through the 1850-line names index, name by tedious name... "Did you know these were the same person?" "Yes, I've already corrected that. In fact, all the items highlighted on your copy of the index have already been resolved. Remember? I worked on it with Tom last week?" "Oh yes. You got this one, right? He's supposed to be a Jr., not a III." "Yes, that's one of the highlighted items. I t h a s a l r e a d y b e e n r e s o l v e d." "Oh good." And so it went. At 5:00 he let his gaze stray over the 900-line subject index. "Well," I said, leaping to my feet, "Thanks for ALL your help. I really must leave now. Good-bye." And did I mention that they want this legal history by noon this Friday. I've been working from proofs that were printed on 8.5"x11" paper, with sidebars, photos, and appendices all given to me in separate files. Now the page proofs are ready, and not only do I have to finish the thing, I also have to do all that re-paginating now that the large, coffee-table sized book has all the photos and sidebars scattered thorough the text. By Friday. At noon. Don't have q u i t e all the final proofs yet. So, my sympathies Do Mi. I would take your editor's offer and do it after your vacation; I understand about needing the money, but--for me--sanity has to come first sometimes. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:35:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KimIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ann Oh my God!!! That's the worst I've heard! Kim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:47:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Do Mi's problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Do Mi, Don't lose confidence! You're an experienced and excellent indexer. I look up to you as a role model! This is just one of the nightmares we have to go through to be freelancers in a very specialized field. At least copyeditors can open up a book of rules of grammar and show why you can't do this or that. We have to defend our work in an objective and intellectual realm. Don't you just want to really say, Look, I'm the indexer, you're the author. If you want the index the way you want it, do it yo' own self, and be prepared to be laughed at. And then go on your vacation and faget about it! Easy for me to say. I'm taking work with me on my vac in Sept. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:55:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Mac laptop update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, I read every single word you all wrote back to me, and finally made my decision about laptops. I did't get the one that started the whole thing, but I went on eBay and got a better one by far (a later model Duo with the dock, floppy drive, and modem) than that one, and also a backpack carrying case and a Stylewriter II (all older but adequate for my needs) all for just under $350 which included shipping charges, and a guarantee to be in working order on arrival. Ebay can be dangerously addictive, but it can also be an amazing place to get a great deal. Thanks for all the input as always. I really don't think I could function as an indexer and freelancer and isolative person without you all. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:21:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Do Mi's problem In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh well, oops, I meant to say SUBJECTIVE and intellectual realm, not objective. Der. R Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:46:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Do Mi, Oh, it's the old "you did a good job but that doesn't make the author happy" scenario! When I have been given a list of topics I couldn't find, I usually explain that since I didn't find them the first time around, I could use a clue as to where the author thinks they are located. I am happy to put those page numbers in the index. I don't sweat it. I may not think those topics are on those pages, but if the author does, who am I to quibble? But I don't want to be looking for a needle in a haystack either. Since my indexes tend to err on the side of completeness, I usually feel just as you do about trying to add "ghost" topics. But what can you do? I would get the author to give you clearer information about what he/she is driving at. As for going through 2 rounds of corrections, this happened to me recently, and I still couldn't make the author happy with my index. But I tried. I told myself after the fact that I did the best I could "under the circumstances." In my case, I thought the author was a little unreasonable, and in talking to the editor, I found out she'd been equally unreasonable at the edit stage (and probably that is why I found so many things to query in her text that the index I sent her was clearly marked "draft"--I usually imply that rather than state it). Oh well. Re-read your "praise" file. Go off on vacation with a clear mind. And put this incident behind you. Here's a virtual hug of sympathy. For some reason, things like this usually happen when I have the least patience to deal with them. Must be a grand plan in there somewhere, but damned if I know where! Try to see it as a test of character, and float above the hassles (if you can--I never can, but I know what I SHOULD do). "Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag and smile, smile, smile!" Bon vacance! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:50:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! I think that a very important question is whether or not they are planning to pay you additional cash for all of the extra work. I think that your plan sounds fine, but I would not begin to undertake reindexing the book or trying to put in concepts that simply aren't there unless we worked out a compensation scheme in advance. I would be emphatic about working through the editor if you think that dealing with the author is going to be a problem, but if you have to deal with the author be very up front about how much editing you will be willing to do, when you will be available (she doesn't have to know that you're going to be on vacation, just that you will not be available) to work on it and at what point you will require additional compensation. Her plans to revamp the index may come to a screeching halt if she realizes that she has to pay for the privilege! Try to keep your cool, and you have the support and sympathy of all of your fellow indexers! Enjoy your vacation! -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: DStaub11@AOL.COM [SMTP:DStaub11@AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 11:52 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! > > Well, first of all, I'm leaving for a long vacation in two days. Before I > go > I already have to finish editing and send off a very long index whose > pages > changed a whole lot; the revised pages were supposed to come a month ago > and > arrived on Friday. The editor told me to leave it till after vacation if > necessary (bless him!) but I need the money for it, so was planning to try > and finish. > > Then today I got an email from the editor of a scholarly index I mailed > last > week, with a list of the first batch of changes the author wants made in > it. > I had a list of concepts from her that was only somewhat helpful because > she > listed quite a few concepts that, although they're the hottest topics in > her > field, were not discussed in the book. Her list of changes (which she says > is > only the first one; she's planning to do another pass through the index) > includes a couple of typos in the index (mea culpa!), some wording changes > (to words I don't think work as well as mine, but that's fine), and three > topics from her list that she wants indexed even though I didn't find them > in > the text. The editor, new to me though client is an established one, > forwarded the list to me expecting me to make the changes she wants, > including the next list, which I shrink to find out about. He also expects > me > to deal directly with her, which of course sometimes works fine but in > this > case is likely to be a nightmare. > > I hate this! It happens every once in a while, and I always hate it. I > think > I made a decent index for this book, which is a collection of essays and > therefore by nature on the disjointed side and leading to a somewhat > disjointed index. I had to make a lot of judgement and wording calls. I'm > feeling defensive now, can you tell? I don't have time (not to mention > inclination) to re-index the book with the author instructing me at every > step; that's not something I ever agree to do anyway. In fact, I'm not > sure I > have time to read through the text looking for the contexts of the topics > she > thinks are in there so I can demonstrate that they're not in there! > > What happens to me in this situation is that I start second-guessing my > indexing and wondering if I missed an entire large concept. Every other > time > this kind of thing has happened, though, I was right the first time and > the > author is spinning dreams, so I try to trust myself. > > Okay, here's my plan of action so far: > --go through her list and change the little wording things > --decide whether or not to spend the evening trying to find > justifications for not putting in the things she thinks are there (and > making > sure I'm not crazy). Maybe I can find a reference or two to make her > happy; > that sometimes helps a lot. > --call the editor tomorrow. Tell him I'm going on vacation; author > changes are usually carried out between the author and the editor, with me > available to clarify my reasons if necessary (though that almost never > happens); the additions she wants to the index are not reasonable (guess > I'd > better be able to back that up). Advise him to thank her for finding the > typos, agree to the wording changes she wants, and talk to her about how > indexing is a subjective process and when you hire a professional indexer > you > get that indexer's judgement, and that if she wants to create new > categories > she can do that (if it's okay with him). (I would say all of this very > very > politely, of course!) > > What do you think? Should I be staying up all night reindexing this book? > Should I start explaining indexing process to the author via email? Any > advice or sympathy welcome. > > Do Mi, planning to make myself feel better by reading the file where I > keep > notes of praise for my indexes... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:59:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! In-Reply-To: <199908030359.XAA09206@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not sure I > have time to read through the text looking for the contexts of > the topics she > thinks are in there so I can demonstrate that they're not in there! You can't prove a negative. If she says they are there, have her tell you where. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:56:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think I'd stay up ALL night redoing the index. I've had a similar one recently. The ideas were in the author's head but not directly in the book although I could see where they were implied. So, if I bowed to the author's wishes, I'd have created index references which may lead the index user nowhere. When I could follow the author's thinking I used cross references from the "non-topic" to a closely-related topic that WAS in the book. Does this make sense? Paula Durbin-Wstby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:27:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 8/3/1999 4:27 AM KimIndex@aol.com wrote (in part): >I work at home and most of us do.I've just moved to a new flat in London. >There's a young man downstairs who only seems to work now and then. The rest >of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk (which I can't >move for various reasons). We've spoken to him three times now. He always >apologises then does it again. Do I just put up with it? There is a device available that uses sound wave inversion to cancel out incoming sounds. One that I've seen for sale looks a great deal like a Walkman or small radio with earphones. Put one the earphones, adjust the device, and theoretically you will have silence. YMMV on individual devices, but the science is sound and, I have read, is being applied on a larger scale in places where noise is a problem, for instance motels near airports. I'd suggest looking in any advertising flyers you can get that have electronic gadgets. The one I saw cost under $100 US, which I think would be well worth it. Be aware, though, that it will do nothing to cancel out any floor vibrations you might have. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@i1.net www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:32:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I highly recommend posting to this list in all cases of even slight crisis of confidence. It's 8:30 the next morning, and it's all resolved. Here's what happened: I logged on here three times last night reading the wonderful posts. I decided to set my timer for 45 minutes and use that time to scan through the book very fast looking for the four topics she thought were in there. Indeed, two of them weren't there at all (one was a title of her own book that she was sure she'd cited--it was cited in two endnotes with no substantive material). There was a big conceptual one that she saw as a thread throughout the book; that was the one that had me worried. I found four places that could conceivably but very marginally be indexed under that topic. In other words, I was right originally. I emailed the editor last night and told him "I need to talk to you about this. I'm going on vacation on Wednesday. I'll call you at 11:00 your time in the morning." Just talked to him and explained the nature of the author's requests. He started right out by saying, "the index looks really clean to me." I apologized (not too vociferously) for the typos and he said, "Oh, that's okay." After I'd told him my take on the addition requests and that I think the index is fine as it stands, he said, "Well, considering what you've told me, and that the index already looks clean, I'd like to keep it on schedule and not start adding things." I offered to email him a new copy with the few changes I would recommend to help the author like it (mostly additions of see also references, and those few marginal pages) and he said no, just send me a list of the changes. All done. I'm going on vacation, and I'm not taking any indexing work with me! Thank you again for all the support. It was really just what I needed. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:24:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home > I work at home and most of us do.I've just moved to a new flat in London. > There's a young man downstairs who only seems to work now and then. The > rest > of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk (which I > can't > move for various reasons). We've spoken to him three times now. He always > apologises then does it again. Do I just put up with it? > > Kim > > (boom chukka boom chukka boom) > Take up tap dancing until he's ready to talk truce? :-) -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:28:49 -0700 Reply-To: Julie Shawvan Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Shawvan Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the nice things about these noisy young neighbors is that they usually don't stay long--find a girl/boyfriend and move out. If I were you, I would get a good set of earplugs (I much prefer the silicone ones), keep complaining occasionally and politely, possibly mention it to the manager of the building and ask her/him to talk to the tenant, and then wait it out. If he doesn't work much, he may not be able to pay the rent and will be evicted soon enough. Speaking from experience, Julie Shawvan Kim wrote: >I work at home and most of us do.I've just moved to a new flat in London. >There's a young man downstairs who only seems to work now and then. The rest >of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk (which I can't >move for various reasons). We've spoken to him three times now. He always >apologises then does it again. Do I just put up with it? > >Kim > >(boom chukka boom chukka boom) > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:19:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Enter without marking up In-Reply-To: <199908030404.AAA10093@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >If you enter without marking up, how do you cope with topics that go over a >number of different pages (but do not have a section heading to show this). > >Do you find a topic on one page, and then always look on the next page to >see whether it goes on? Or do you just enter page at a time, andcombine >things as necessary (ie if a topic does go over a few pages). Yes, I look ahead to see how far the discussion goes and then key it right in. I can always add locators later if the discussion goes further than I realized. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 1 Aug 1999 to 2 Aug 1999 (#1999-5) In-Reply-To: <199908030404.AAA10093@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I hate this! It happens every once in a while, and I always hate it. I think >I made a decent index for this book, which is a collection of essays and >therefore by nature on the disjointed side and leading to a somewhat >disjointed index. I had to make a lot of judgement and wording calls. I'm >feeling defensive now, can you tell? I don't have time (not to mention >inclination) to re-index the book with the author instructing me at every >step; that's not something I ever agree to do anyway. In fact, I'm not sure I >have time to read through the text looking for the contexts of the topics she >thinks are in there so I can demonstrate that they're not in there! First of all, you definitely have my sympathies. I would get right on the phone with the editor and, at the very least, explain that you're leaving on vacation and won't have time to do all that the editor and the author are asking (OK, I see that's part of your plan). Then I would insist that the author send a page proof set with with the missing terms highlighted and the appropriate pages flagged. If the author thinks the terms are there and you don't, its up to him or her to show them to you. It's really ridiculous that this editor didn't give you any warning that this was coming; that kind of crap usually tells me I'm working with an inexperienced editor. One of the things I do during the keying in process--which I *hope* minimizes this kind of author tinkering--is to make notes (which I type right into a cover lette) of my thinking on certain aspect of the index, anything of which I think the editor or the author might think, "Why did she do it this way?" This helps convey the idea that the index is carefully thought out and is intended to discourage authors from making major changes. I'm wondering if other indexers do much of that. >and talk to her about how >indexing is a subjective process and when you hire a professional indexer you >get that indexer's judgement, and that if she wants to create new categories >she can do that (if it's okay with him). (I would say all of this very very >politely, of course!) I also tell authors that what that subjectivity means is that six different people would index the book six different ways. > >What do you think? Should I be staying up all night reindexing this book? >Should I start explaining indexing process to the author via email? Any >advice or sympathy welcome. Definitely the second. You've already done the work you agreed to. Unless you thought her criticisms were valid, which you apparently don't, I would opt for spending some time educating her, explaining about not indexing passing mentions, not building too hierarchical an index, etc. etc. I had to do this with an author about a month ago. She was very open to learning (not insistent on her changes), so it turned out to be a rewarding, albeit time-consuming, experience. I once had this index I thought was pretty good and was hoping to submit to the Wilson Award Committee. When I spoke to the editor about it, they asked that I not submit it, because they didn't feel the work was entirely mine! Get this: the author made seven changes (yes, seven!) changes to the index. All but one of those changes involved merely rephrasing subentries. The seventh change was a term I hadn't included but which the author thought was important. > >Do Mi, planning to make myself feel better by reading the file where I keep >notes of praise for my indexes... Please also accept this virtual pat on the back, Do Mi. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:19:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Mulvaney In-Reply-To: <199908030404.AAA10093@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Could someone keep a list of how many times one of us uses Mulvaney instead >of Mulvany? I did it at least twice until someone sent me a nice note off >list. I find it rather amusing, once I got over being utterly embarassed. That's cute, Paula. Every time I want to refer to her book in a post to Index-L, I have to go grab the book off the shelf to check the spelling. Mental block, I guess. Sounds like I need a mnemonic (or a Johnny Mnemonic!). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:32:16 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 1 Aug 1999 to 2 Aug 1999 (#1999-5) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Roberts wrote: > > It's really ridiculous that this editor didn't give you any warning that this > was > coming; that kind of crap usually tells me I'm working with an > inexperienced editor. > > I had to do this with an author about a month ago. She was very open to learning > > (not insistent on her changes), so it turned out to be a rewarding, albeit > time-consuming, experience. This brings us an interesting point, where has the editor been through this process? It's one thing for an author to not understand the indexing process but I do expect the editor to appreciate the quality of an index. All too often it seems as though editors leave indexers to fend for themselves with the authors. While I appreciate that many editors dislike being confrontational with the author it is so much more awkward for an indexer to have to defend their own work to someone who may not understand the indexing process. Carol, congratulations on having the patience to work with the author in question. And how fortunate that she was open to learning about indexing. However, I can't help but wonder how much less time-consuming it might have been for you if the editor (that is assuming that you weren't working directly with the author in this case) had run interference for you. My message is not to caste aspersions on the character of all editors. Most of the editors I work for are great! But, I do think that behind many a horror story with an author hides an editor who ran for the hills and left the indexer to fend for themselves. Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:50:32 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: [Fwd: INDEX-L Digest - 1 Aug 1999 to 2 Aug 1999 (#1999-5)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------00BC0511ADC726FE8FBC0126" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------00BC0511ADC726FE8FBC0126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List members, Please pardon me if you have already received this message. I am forwarding it back to the list because I received notification of a delivery failure. Best, Sylvia Coates --------------00BC0511ADC726FE8FBC0126 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <37A6D371.7BC508C@slip.net> Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 11:33:05 +0000 From: Sylvia Coates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Indexer's Discussion Group Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 1 Aug 1999 to 2 Aug 1999 (#1999-5) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Roberts wrote: > > It's really ridiculous that this editor didn't give you any warning that this > was > coming; that kind of crap usually tells me I'm working with an > inexperienced editor. > > I had to do this with an author about a month ago. She was very open to learning > > (not insistent on her changes), so it turned out to be a rewarding, albeit > time-consuming, experience. This brings us an interesting point, where has the editor been through this process? It's one thing for an author to not understand the indexing process but I do expect the editor to appreciate the quality of an index. All too often it seems as though editors leave indexers to fend for themselves with the authors. While I appreciate that many editors dislike being confrontational with the author it is so much more awkward for an indexer to have to defend their own work to someone who may not understand the indexing process. Carol, congratulations on having the patience to work with the author in question. And how fortunate that she was open to learning about indexing. However, I can't help but wonder how much less time-consuming it might have been for you if the editor (that is assuming that you weren't working directly with the author in this case) had run interference for you. My message is not to caste aspersions on the character of all editors. Most of the editors I work for are great! But, I do think that behind many a horror story with an author hides an editor who ran for the hills and left the indexer to fend for themselves. Best, Sylvia Coates --------------00BC0511ADC726FE8FBC0126-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:24:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: author changes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << This brings us an interesting point, where has the editor been through this process? It's one thing for an author to not understand the indexing process but I do expect the editor to appreciate the quality of an index. >> Yes, I was surprised that the editor initially sent it on to me. He did say that he was very surprised to find such a long list of changes (6 comments in addition to the few typos)--he thought it would be two or three little changes. Then I was pleasantly surprised when I talked to him and he did stand up for me. I did manage to sneak into the conversation the sentence, "These kinds of changes are usually handled between the author and the editor without involving me..." So in the end he did appreciate the quality of my index, thank goodness! I'm always grateful when an editor does this--the good ones see it as part of their job, and it looks as if this one is clearer on that now. I have had an editor ask to pay me to spend some time educating an author--his extensive complaints all stemmed from not understanding the indexing process and specifically the concept of metatopic (oh no! the most important concept in the book is missing from the index! Here are the fifty subheadings it should have!) In that case I agreed to take the (paid) time, and kept the three-page treatise I produced to use in future writing. Do Mi Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:28:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit < There's a young man downstairs who only seems to work now and then. The rest > of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk (which I can't > move for various reasons). >> This happened to me my first semester in college--rock music playing so loudly in the room below us, coming up through the radiator, that our hallmates kept asking us to turn down our music! After months of trying to get the college to do something, my roommate finally turned on Also Sprach Zarathustra (you know, the classical theme from 2001? Bah bah bah BOOM?) extremely loudly and aimed both speakers right at the radiator. That was it for a couple of weeks, at least. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:45:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-08-03 12:36:15 EDT, you write: << Kim > > (boom chukka boom chukka boom) > Take up tap dancing until he's ready to talk truce? :-) -- Sharon W. >> An even better choreographic activity might be clogging! Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:59:23 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KimIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/08/99 16:38:46 GMT Daylight Time, lastword@I1.NET writes: << There is a device available that uses sound wave inversion to cancel out incoming sounds >> Dear Craig That sounds marvellous! I'll look out for it! best wishes Kim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:11:24 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: elgecko@IAFRICA.COM Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Why not try Spanish flamenco music?? It worked a treat for me when I found myself living nextdoor to a violin player who practised the instrument until after 20:00 hours each night. Good luck Jeanne ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 11:59 AM Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home > In a message dated 03/08/99 16:38:46 GMT Daylight Time, lastword@I1.NET > writes: > > << There is a device available that uses sound wave inversion to cancel out > incoming sounds >> > > Dear Craig > > That sounds marvellous! I'll look out for it! > > best wishes > > Kim > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:40:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: job opportunity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please respond to Sharon Gray, not to the list. ______________________ Position Description Information Specialist International Rehabilitation Research Center Database and Web Site The Center for International Rehabilitation Research and Information Exchange (CIRRIE) is a newly-funded Center at the University at Buffalo. One of the priorities of the Center is to create a Web-accessible bibliographic database of international rehabilitation research and a Web site for the Center. The Information Specialist will identify information for inclusion in the database and the Web site; will assist the Database Coordinator with the design of the database and its user-friendliness; will create and maintain the project Web site; and will select resources to be linked to the Web site. Responsibilities. The Information Specialist will: * Assist in the design of the database and the search interface * Use commercial and publicly available databases to select references for inclusion in the database * Import citations into a Web-searchable database * Screen citations for quality control and consistency * Assign subject headings to each citation * Develop a thesaurus for the database using the REHABDATA thesaurus as a foundation * Collaborate with other staff and researchers affiliated with CIRRIE to assess the effectiveness of the database and Web site * Identify and maintain contact with foreign rehabilitation research centers to facilitate information dissemination * Maintain the project Web site * Provide reference assistance to researchers worldwide. QUALIFICATIONS: Required: M.L.S. from ALA-accredited program. Experience in indexing or cataloging. Knowledge of controlled vocabulary including at least one standard subject heading scheme. Familiarity with biomedical literature. Excellent written communication skills, strong analytical skills, and abstracting ability. Experience with database management software such as Microsoft Access. Experience searching numerous biomedical databases with different search engines. Experience searching the WWW for research-related information, and with Windows or NT operating systems. Experience in developing Web pages using HTML. Ability to work independently as well as participate actively as a member of a team. Highly motivated; evidence of initiative. PREFERRED: Reading knowledge of at least one foreign language; familiarity with disability and rehabilitation research literature. Knowledge of thesaurus construction. Salary is competitive. UB offers a generous benefits program. Please send letter of application and resume including the names of at least three references to: Sharon Gray, Head Reference and Education Services Health Sciences Library University at Buffalo Buffalo, NY 14214-3002 The Research Foundation is an equal opportunity/Affirmative Action employer. Prospective candidates from protected groups are encouraged to apply. No person in whatever relationship with the Research Foundation of the State University of New York shall be subject to discrimination on the basis of age, creed, color, disability, national origin, race, religion, sex, sexual orientation, marital or veteran status. - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:40:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: index-l archives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, With the move of index-l to the new server, the archives have become more accessible. Go to the url: http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html Here you will find only the archives created since the move. For earlier archives (since 1992), you must go to: http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/ Remember also, that the address for sending messages has changed to INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU And the address for sending commands (nomail, unsubscribe, digest, etc.) has changed to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU -- Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: other changes to index-l MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, In addition to accessing the archives at http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html, you can also post to the list or change the settings for your subscriptions from this site. Click on "Post to the list" or "Join or leave the list (or change settings)". I do not know how well these functions work, but I will say that I have used the list management function from this site and that works very well. Its a brave new world...8-). -- Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:40:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: not indexing but working at home In-Reply-To: <199908040406.AAA23330@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've had two situations like that. Once it was people across the street, who would put their stereo speakers in the windows of their house, facing into the street (!), so they could hang out outside and have loud music. I called the cops twice, and that put an end to it. Another time it was a downstairs neighbor who worked third shift and left her dog chained in the backyard, and the dog literally howled all night long, night after night. I complained to my neighbor several times; told her I wasn't getting any sleep (earplugs just aren't enough when I dog is howling its little heart out). I complained to the apartment manager several times. It continued. Finally, I threatened to poison her dog, and she found another home for him. Never in a million years would I poison a dog, so no flaming e-mail, please. My point is, I guess, that sometimes is takes persistent complaints--and occasionally a willingness to fight fire with fire. I like the tap dancing idea. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:40:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Help! Author changes--advice/commiseration needed! In-Reply-To: <199908040406.AAA23330@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Carol, congratulations on having the patience to work with the author in >question. >And how fortunate that she was open to learning about indexing. However, I >can't >help but wonder how much less time-consuming it might have been for you if the >editor (that is assuming that you weren't working directly with the author >in this >case) had run interference for you. Yes, it certainly would have been less time-consuming. The editor had asked me from the outset if I would work with the author, and I had agreed (and allowed time for it and was being pretty well paid). Although I occasionally have had miserable times with authors, my overwhelming experience with them has been very positive, so I don't shy away from it. When an editor asks me to contact and work with an author, the first thing I ask is whether this is the author's first book. I try to determine how savvy the author is likely to be about the whole process. If the author seems inexperienced, I make an early contact to sew the subjectivity-of-the-index seed. That's not foolproof of course, but I suspect it has helped me on more than one occasion. Unlike some of you, I don't view the author's input as interference with my work. I may not always agree with the author, but I do think they have every right to have some input. If I were having my house painted or my kitchen remodeled, I'd certainly expect to have plenty of input even while acknowledging that the contractor is the expert. If I see a doctor, I still expect to discuss my treament even though I acknowledge that she's the expert. And I expect these experts to think of the time spent with me as part of their job and to set their fees accordingly. This is not to say that I *want* to have my work questioned or that I *enjoy* spending real time going over an index line by freakin' line. But when that does happen, I try not to take the author's comments as criticism of my work; often I find that they're sort of curious about the thought process more than anything else. But yes, I'll admit I have some author horror stories, too. And yes, I do prefer to work with the editor, submit my work, have it accepted unquestioned as the masterpiece that it is, and get my check. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:53:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sindexer@AOL.COM Subject: In-house indexer position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear fellow indexers: Cadmus Journal Services, medical and scientific printers, has an opening for an in-house indexer/editor. The main responsibility would be indexing medical and scientific journals, but back-up editing on some journals would also be in the job description. We are located in Linthicum, MD (near Baltimore). Please respond to me off-list and I will get in touch with more info, Thanks, Sally Lawther ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:15:41 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Testing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, I am just testing if my message will be posted via new Index-L address. Happy indexing! MANJIT K. SAHAI _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:43:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: not indexing but working at home In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The feng shui solution is to position mirrors to reflect back the energy to the person generating it. A friend of mine did this with an annoying neighbor (I don't recall the offense) and (coincidently?) they moves away! Good luck. Naomi PS I also agree with the premis that young/annoying neighbors like this usually don't stay put for too long, though it did take months for a neighbor to move who had a dog that barked at anyone coming home to their own house within a radius of hers. *****************************************************************************J. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:41:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: patting my back, oh, my elbow. . . Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, taking time out when I should be working, but we've been discussing charging our worth and standing up for ourselves, so I wanted to tell you all this story. I had arranged for a project of 360 pages to come to me "sometime" mid to late August. Last week I got the call about this big book (client B) with all the names that you all know about, and that one is 600 pages, densely indexable, due Aug. 24. I called the first client (client A) to see if she knew the date yet for her book, as I felt she had first dibs on my time, and she still didn't know, and I told her I would take the other assignment then, and she said fine, didn't expect them to overlap. So today I get an email from Client A, so happy to let me know that her book will be coming to me Aug 11 (what happened to around the 18th?) and is now 416 pages, and, here I quote, "I know you don't want to hear this, but we have a really tight schedule and we'd like to have it back in a week if you think that's humanly possible." I actually laughed. Out loud. LOL. Humorlessly. So I wrote back immediately saying, not even without the other book in house could I do 416 pages in a week unless all they wanted was headings and nothing else. And that I didn't think I could even find another indexer who could do a good index in a week but that I could try, and might even be successful. I said, I must be honest, I just can't get it back to you before Sept. 5, and I'd rather tell you that up front than take the book and do a crappy job and get it back late. And this is what I got back: ------- I'm sure we can adjust our schedule to work for you. I appreciate your honesty in regard to the schedule and I'll see how much time we can give you. We are really happy with your past work and will do our best to shuffle work on our end to give you the time you need to do the index -------- Well, at this I cried. Out loud. Joyously. I really and truly and most tremendously needed that today. I am so unbelievabley stressed and was having a crisis of confidence in other areas of my life, and this really helped. I'm starting a Do Mi file of positive strokes for when I have a day like Do Mi had. Enjoy the positives today and disregard the negatives when they come. Thanks for listening, Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:34:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am thinking of changing my email service. Is there a service that's the BEST? Or are they all about the same? (Is "service" what you call it?) I'd like to be able to access it from on the road. The reason I'm thinking of changing it is that people are having a very hard time getting pdf and rtf files from me, I'm at a loss and so are the very knowledgeable people I'm trying to send the stuff to. I thought they'd be able to just figure it out for me, but not so. The "computer experts" I know think it's my particular email service and not just ME (which is a step up from what they would have said a month or so ago!) I have Internet Mail, by the way. Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:29:58 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Re not indexing but working at home In-Reply-To: <65fdc72b.24d80fff@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kim - do you have access to his fusebox? Pulling out his fuses is a good way to draw attention to your complaint. If he keeps it up you could try hiding them. Jon > The rest > of the time, he plays loud dance music directly under my desk > (which I can't > move for various reasons). We've spoken to him three times now. He always > apologises then does it again. Do I just put up with it? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:16:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: What's your fav email? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:34 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: >Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? Unless you get Juno Web, "plain vanilla" Juno doesn't allow file transfers...so that would be out if you are thinking of using it for business. If you plan to do a lot of traveling, you'll want to pick one that has LOTS of local nodes and toll-free telephone numbers. I use a local ISP because it's quite inexpensive and I don't expect to do a lot of traveling while I work...and thus don't need to call it from, say, 1500 miles away. Otherwise, I'd be out looking, too. I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually every town in the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf and .pdf files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious file-sending. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:38:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am using Juno Gold, which is Juno plus the ability to attach files. While plain vanilla Juno is completely free, Juno Gold is $ 2.95 per month. You pay for one year in advance, $ 35.40. If you cancel before the year is up, you get the balance returned. I've been using Juno Gold for only about one month, but I have been sending files as attachments with no problem. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:16:17 -0700 Sonsie Conroy writes: > At 08:34 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: > > >Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? > > Unless you get Juno Web, "plain vanilla" Juno doesn't allow file > transfers...so that would be out if you are thinking of using it for > business. If you plan to do a lot of traveling, you'll want to pick > one that > has LOTS of local nodes and toll-free telephone numbers. > > I use a local ISP because it's quite inexpensive and I don't expect > to do a > lot of traveling while I work...and thus don't need to call it from, > say, > 1500 miles away. Otherwise, I'd be out looking, too. > > I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually every > town in > the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf > and .pdf > files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious > file-sending. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:11:35 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Subject: indexing chapters and verses In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990805031617.01392ee8@slonet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Indexing mavens, I have a question that I run into frequently because I index books dealing with the ancient Near East and was wondering whether any of the standard indexing manuals give a definitive answer. It has to do with chapters and verses from the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, etc. In what order should one put inclusive numbers? I was reading D. J. A. Clines' "The Sheffield Manual for Authors & Editors in Biblical Studies" and came across the following: In indexes of references, the larger block of text precedes the smaller. Thus the correct order is: Genesis 1-3 1-2 1 1:1-3:6 1:1-3:5 1:1-4 1:1-3 1:1 [I've change the original dividing period to a colon because North American readers seem more familiar with that format.] It looks odd to my eye but I don't have any authority to cite for a different order. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:22:01 -0400 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Re: What's your fav email? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990805031617.01392ee8@slonet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have AOL and use it a lot for file transfers, and I've not had any problems with it at all. I have a friend that uses Hotmail, but I've never asked him how he likes it. If you get 'web-based' email and you use a mail reader program like Microsoft's Outlook or Netscape's Communicator, you want to make sure you can access your email via your mail reader program. AOL won't allow you to do this, the last I looked. I don't know how Hotmail, Yahoo, and Juno handle this. I use Outlook 98, and the incoming mail server has to be either a POP3 or an IMAP server, and the outgoing has to be an SMTP server for me to use it. Maybe our collective wisdom knows more about these server types than I do? Joanne ===================== > I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually > every town in > the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf and .pdf > files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious > file-sending. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:14:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At 08:34 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: >Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? Sonsie Conroy I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually every town in the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf and .pdf files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious file-sending. LH Feldman comments: I use both AOL and Erols. AOL not only has local numbers in the USA but also abroad. In June I sent an index file (in Microsoft for Macintosh) from Seville Spain using their local number to an address in the USA and the publisher said it arrived without any problem. The problems I've had with AOL in the recent past are: (1) system overload-- the lines are busy so one can't either send and/or receive mail. This can last a couple of hours. This problem is less common than it has been in the USA but is still very much present in a big city like Madrid where AOL has few phone numbers but many subscribers (2) AOL e-mail occasionally arrives in a completely unreadable format. Usually, but not always, this is when someone is trying to send a picture or other illustration. (3) I can't get on the net using my desktop and AOL. This is a function of having an older desktop machine with not enough RAM. It is also the primary reason why I subscribe to Erols which I only use when I'm in Maryland. I also use Erols as a backup when AOL is "busy" and I absolutely have to e-mail someone urgently. This has happened a few times. (4) I should add that AOL charges extra for using its services abroad. So it costs more to use AOL from outside the USA. In summary, while AOL usually works (and is a necessity if one does lots of travel with a laptop), I strongly recommend also subscribing to a cheap local service as a backup. Lawrence H. Feldman Indexer-Researcher-Writer Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:39:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Jeopardy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a note to me this morning, an editor noted: "You will also be pleased to know that one of the contestants (on the "Jeopardy" quarterfinals last evening) was an indexing editor, and he won. Rah! Rah! Let's hear it for indexers!" Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Indexers Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For some years the Australian Society of Indexers has published "Indexers Available", a list of indexers who are members of the Society and available to take commissions. From 1999, the Society is making this information available on its Web site. The online version will be kept up to date with new and amended information. You can find an indexer by name, by subject competencies, by materials and formats indexed, and by location. As well, each indexer's entry contains contact details, related services offered, like proofreading and editing, and some examples of recent publications indexed. "Indexers Available" has recently been loaded onto the Society's Website at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/indexersavailable/ All members who applied for inclusion have been notified by either email or fax. If you did not receive notification, please check your details on the site (including all the links to your entry), and send any corrections to me by either email at keyword@ozemail.com.au or fax (02) 9331 7785 before 18 August. Michael Wyatt Membership Secretary Australian Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:11:10 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Liam Chambers Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My experience is that Aol mail is unstable when transferring large amounts of data by mail, especially by attachment. This is true especially at peak times. Better to use either CompuServe (also owned by AOL) or an ISP which pairs with other suppliers to provide local pops. Well at least that's the experience in Europe. Hotmail and most web based mail systems have limits on the amount of attachment data you can send, which makes it sort of pointless. FTP is still the best way of sending data especially to publishers. Liam ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: 05 August 1999 14:14 Subject: Re: What's your fav email? > At 08:34 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: > > >Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? > > Sonsie Conroy > > I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually every town in > the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf and .pdf > files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious > file-sending. > > LH Feldman comments: > > I use both AOL and Erols. AOL not only has local numbers in the USA but also > abroad. In June I sent an index file (in Microsoft for Macintosh) from > Seville Spain using their local number to an address in the USA and the > publisher said it arrived without any problem. > > The problems I've had with AOL in the recent past are: (1) system overload-- > the lines are busy so one can't either send and/or receive mail. This can > last a couple of hours. This problem is less common than it has been in the > USA but is still very much present in a big city like Madrid where AOL has > few phone numbers but many subscribers (2) AOL e-mail occasionally arrives in > a completely unreadable format. Usually, but not always, this is when > someone is trying to send a picture or other illustration. (3) I can't get > on the net using my desktop and AOL. This is a function of having an older > desktop machine with not enough RAM. It is also the primary reason why I > subscribe to Erols which I only use when I'm in Maryland. I also use Erols > as a backup when AOL is "busy" and I absolutely have to e-mail someone > urgently. This has happened a few times. > (4) I should add that AOL charges extra for using its services abroad. So > it costs more to use AOL from outside the USA. > > In summary, while AOL usually works (and is a necessity if one does lots of > travel with a laptop), I strongly recommend also subscribing to a cheap > local service as a backup. > > Lawrence H. Feldman > Indexer-Researcher-Writer > Lawrenc846@aol.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:17:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: What's your fav email? Comments: To: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paula - I seriously doubt that this is actually your e-mail SERVICE that is causing the problem. It may have something to do with the program you are using, and settings in it. Do I understand that you are using Microsoft's included mail software? The list of "services" at the end of your note includes 3 e-mail services and a software program (Pegasus - not a service) - you might do as well staying with your current provider, and change software. The "free" services tack on advertising - not very professional looking. Traveling presents other problems - depending on where you are going, even some of the biggies don't have a local portal - my provider recently began a service that let's you call their 800 number to get in, with a 10 cent-a-minute charge - OK for e-mail, but I wouldn't want to surf on it. AOL doesn't have a local number for me (I'm 30 min from Columbus, OH) and Compuserve doesn't have a local high-speed node. I am currently using the e-mail incorporated in Netscape, and have no problem with attachments, outgoing or incoming. I would be willing to kibbitz with you (off-list) and try things out to see what works for sending and receiving. Iris Ailin-Pyzik ibap@crystalsys.com "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" wrote: > > I am thinking of changing my email service. Is there a service that's the > BEST? Or are they all about the same? (Is "service" what you call it?) I'd > like to be able to access it from on the road. The reason I'm thinking of > changing it is that people are having a very hard time getting pdf and rtf > files from me, I'm at a loss and so are the very knowledgeable people I'm > trying to send the stuff to. I thought they'd be able to just figure it > out for me, but not so. The "computer experts" I know think it's my > particular email service and not just ME (which is a step up from what they > would have said a month or so ago!) I have Internet Mail, by the way. > > Yahoo? Hotmail? Juno? Pegasus? > > Paula Durbin-Westby > dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:26:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, Weighing in on ISPs ..... I have used AOL for years, and still do. I send indexes as .doc attachments and never have a problem. It's true that it is sometimes crowded, but it has not been a major problem for me where I live. System traffic sometimes makes the system slow, but it hasn't been a major problem for me. I have also received .pdf files successfully. One thing to know, though. If you need FTP privileges, you can't use AOL to upload to FTP sites other than the public domain ones they specify. This is a limitation that is annoying. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:41:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << I would recommend AOL because it is so universal and virtually every town in the US has a local number, but I'm not sure how it does with .rtf and .pdf files. I have an AOL acount, but have never tested it for serious file-sending. >> I send rtf files via AOL all the time, and it works fine; haven't tried a PDF file. If an attachment is short, AOL will put it into the email, thus losing formatting; the fix for that is to zip the file. Otherwise I haven't had any problems, and I love being able to access it anywhere with a local number. However, the cost can add up; I gather it's quite a bit more expensive than regular ISPs. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:24:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Posada Subject: Re: Jeopardy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Was that the guy in the middle that kicked butt? --- "Deborah E. Patton" wrote: > In a note to me this morning, an editor noted: > > "You will also be pleased to know that one of the > contestants (on the > "Jeopardy" quarterfinals last evening) was an > indexing editor, and he won. > Rah! Rah! Let's hear it for indexers!" === John Posada Western Union International (w) jposada@westernunion.com (p) john@tdandw.com _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:55:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: What's your fav email? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:41 AM 8/5/99 EDT, DStaub11@AOL.COM wrote: >However, the cost can add up; I gather it's quite a bit more expensive than >regular ISPs. Actually, I am paying $18 a month for my local ISP (which is a nonprofit), so AOL at $22.95 isn't THAT much more expensive, IMO. And a good insurance policy for when/if you need to travel and work at the same time...or just check your email. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:26:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While Sonsie may recommend AOL, I have stayed with CompuServe, even though they've been bought by the competition. CServe has problems with attachments. I can send ANYTHING to a fellow CompuServe user, but to send to another system I must Uuencode stuff. Which works quite well. Cheers, Dave Talcott ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:12:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Page Maker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all! I need some help once again. I'm on a tight deadline for a book that the author and editor want to review and edit (don't ask!!), and they want me to email it to them so that they can open it in Page Maker. I don't have Page Maker and I have no experience with it, nor any time to figure it out at this point! If anyone out there knows of an easy, foolproof way to email material to be imported into Page Maker, please help me! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:05:37 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I seem to have an ISP that no one else seems to have on our list: Prodigy Internet. I began as a beta tester with the original Prodigy back in the eighties and have always been satisfied with their prices and their service. When PI began a few years ago I switched to that. I was also allowed to keep my Prodigy Classic, as it was called. We were allowed six separate IDs. My children, my husband, and other family members had their own accounts in different locations, and my charge was all that was paid. They could not access my credit card or other personal information, and I could cut them off of services at any time they misused them. One by one all my relatives got their own service, and now Prodigy is eliminating Prodigy Classic this coming October. I keep AOL as a backup (5 hours a month for $9.95) since I cannot afford to be without Internet access. I would not like AOL as my primary service, however, because it seems they have much more difficulty in receiving attachments such as photos. They have to go through a download whereas on PI the picture is right there immediately and the document goes at once into Word. I realize AOL is very popular, but this is the way I view it. Jean Middleton IndexPro@IndexEmpire.Com http://www.IndexEmpire.Com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:36:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Are we talking about email programs, or ISPs? Seems like it's the latter. I use cable modem, which I think is unbeatable. My phone line is never out of service, the speed is incredible, my ISP handles large files well and quickly, and I never time-out from a download or lose a connection. The cost? I pay a flat $45/mo, but that includes Internet access 24 hours a day if I want to leave my connection and browser open, several email accounts, a Web site, remote email access, and other goodies. If you have cable modem available in your area, I highly recommend it. Some people balk at the cost, but when you pay at least $20/mo just for access, plus any costs for time online, I believe the costs are comparable. Regards, Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:46:58 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Page Maker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Save as an RTF file and send. That worked for me. PageMaker accepts RTF files. Jean Middleton EditPro@IndexEmpire.Com http://www.indexempire.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:53:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: emillen@MCP.COM Subject: Re: Page Maker Comments: To: Kari Miller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both Word and RTF files can be imported into PageMaker. RTF is probably the simpler choice since some versions of PageMaker require you to backsave to Word 4 or Word 6. Erika Millen ---------- From: Kari Miller at internet Sent: Thursday, August 5, 1999 4:12 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU at INTERNET Subject: Page Maker Hello all! I need some help once again. I'm on a tight deadline for a book that the author and editor want to review and edit (don't ask!!), and they want me to email it to them so that they can open it in Page Maker. I don't have Page Maker and I have no experience with it, nor any time to figure it out at this point! If anyone out there knows of an easy, foolproof way to email material to be imported into Page Maker, please help me! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:08:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use a regional provider, Crosslink, which until recently was the only ISP offering a local access telephone number in my *small* GTE local phone pocket. (To explain, for those who haven't run into this phenomenon before: Back when Ma Bell owned everything, they allowed GTE [and other services?] to control a few small areas so that Bell could claim it wasn't a monopoly -- or so I understand it. These pockets still survive, though now they are pockets within the various regional Bell companies, etc. On my local telephone service, I can call anyone in my rural county, which includes two small towns and a naval research base. Period. Calling the nearest city - which is about 20-25 minutes away, a mere 18 miles -- requires an area code and costs in-state long distance rates.) I was *not* willing to pay that kind of money every time I was on the Net or checking email, so I went with the local provider. Crosslink is an ISP in the Mid-Atlantic states and perhaps beyond. For $20/month I get 40 hours of access, which was comparable to what AOL was offering when I signed up, and is less than anyone was offering for their 1-800-line access programs. I'm not away that much, and when I am out of Crosslink's area of local numbers, I simply dial in long-distance and eat the cost. It's less than I would have to pay if I went with a national provider whose closest number was long-distance for me. I've been very happy with Crosslink, though I have little else to compare it with. Another gripe about being in a little phone pocket -- you can't get many of the services other people take for granted. They just started offering caller-ID about a year and a half ago, and they've been promising and reneging on voice mail for two years. At last check, they couldn't tell me when we'd get it. Grrr. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:54:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: What's your fav email? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" One thing I would strongly recommend in choosing an ISP is to be sure that the name is unambiguous in different fonts. Case in point is my current ISP, Internet 1st. My address is lastword@i1.net. In many fonts that looks like il.net. I've also had people tell me they couldn't reach me at 1l.net. Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@il.net (uh, I mean 1l.net... no! i1.net!) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:10:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Page Maker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kari, In a message dated 99-08-05 15:21:35 EDT, you write: << foolproof way to email material to be imported into Page Maker>> Send it as an attached .rtf file. It will slide into PageMaker with no problems. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:11:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: What's your fav email? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the useful responses about email and ISPs. I knew I could count on you all to bring me up to date! Paula dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:50:05 +1200 Reply-To: Kathie Napier Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathie Napier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEE01A.F8BA8F20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEE01A.F8BA8F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable set index-l nomail ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEE01A.F8BA8F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
set index-l = nomail
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BEE01A.F8BA8F20-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 14:20:45 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: New AusSI newsletter on Web Comments: To: ALIA Indexers List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By the time you read this the new AusSI Newsletter should be on the Web at http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl/9907aug ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi aussi@zeta.org.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 19:27:38 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: indexing chapters and verses Comments: cc: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Avital Pinnick writes: >I have a question that I run into frequently because I index books dealing >with the ancient Near East and was wondering whether any of the standard >indexing manuals give a definitive answer. It has to do with chapters and >verses from the Hebrew Bible, New Testament, apocrypha, pseudepigrapha, >etc. > >In what order should one put inclusive numbers? The rule I follow is this: Sort verses by ascending numerical order within books, rather than (implied) size of entry, and go from simple to complex notation. I forget now how many authorities I consulted to satisfy myself that this is in fact the usual convention, but I do remember one of them: a set of the Greek and Latin Fathers published in several series, in the original languages, under the general title Corpus Christianorum. Each volume in the Series Latina has an index of biblical references, just like the _index locorum_ in a book about classical Latin literature, but called (if I remember rightly) the Index Sanctae [or perhaps it was Sacrae] Scripturae. I suggest you visit an academic library and have a look at some of the volumes in the (very large) Series Latina. The only book I have to hand follows the same system, but I couldn't find any examples of references to more than a single chapter. It's The Bible As It Was, by James L. Kugel (Cambridge and London: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1997). Here are some examples from its index: HEBREW BIBLE Genesis 4:1 4:1-2 4:2 PSEUDEPIGRAPHA Philo of Alexandria, Joseph (De Josepha) 165 165-66 The example you give of the Sheffield Manual system appears to contradict the prescription: >In indexes of references, the larger block of text precedes the smaller. >Thus the correct order is: > >Genesis >1-3 >1-2 >1 >1:1-3:6 [but from ch.1, v.1, to ch.3, v.6, is much longer than ch.1 on its own] >1:1-3:5 [but from ch.1, v.1, to ch.3, v.5, is much longer than ch.1 on its own] >1:1-4 >1:1-3 >1:1 I don't know the reputation of D. J. A. Clines' "The Sheffield Manual for Authors & Editors in Biblical Studies" and can find no mention of it in the sources I have been consulting: Indexing, The Art of (Knight), Indexers on Indexing (ed. Harrod), Indexing Books (Mulvany), Indexing from A to Z (Wellisch). For all I know, Clines' recommendations may be generally accepted in biblical studies, at any rate among protestant Christians. I shall go to the local university library a.s.a.p., probably tomorrow, and seek out some reputable examples of _indices locorum_ (classical and biblical) and report what (if anything) I find that's relevant to your query. Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:12:41 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: indexing chapters and verses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:27 PM 8/6/99 +1200, Simon Cauchi wrote: > Sort verses by ascending numerical order within books, rather than > (implied) size of entry, and go from simple to complex notation. > >I forget now how many authorities I consulted to satisfy myself that this >is in fact the usual convention, but I do remember one of them: a set of >the Greek and Latin Fathers published in several series, in the original >languages, under the general title Corpus Christianorum. Each volume in the >Series Latina has an index of biblical references, just like the _index Although I didn't mention what system I had been following before, that is the system I've always used, i.e., ascending order. I indexed a volume for the Corpus Christianorum series a few years ago and don't recall getting any complaints about the source index. >any examples of references to more than a single chapter. It's The Bible As >It Was, by James L. Kugel (Cambridge and London: The Belknap Press of >Harvard University Press, 1997). Here are some examples from its index: That's the same practice I've always followed, although it may have something to do with the fact that Jim Kugel is a former professor of mine and was on my thesis committee. One picks up more from one's advisors than one realises. >The example you give of the Sheffield Manual system appears to contradict >the prescription: .... >(Wellisch). For all I know, Clines' recommendations may be generally >accepted in biblical studies, at any rate among protestant Christians. Or at least among authors in biblical studies who publish with Sheffield! ;-) Does this mean that the question of indexing biblical references is not addressed by the standard indexing handbooks? Strange. >I shall go to the local university library a.s.a.p., probably tomorrow, and >seek out some reputable examples of _indices locorum_ (classical and >biblical) and report what (if anything) I find that's relevant to your >query. Many thanks for checking and for the general reassurance. I'd started lying awake at nights, hyperventilating and wondering whether I'd been doing my source indexes *backwards* all these years! Rant warning... I just finished a 140 pp. index (my Nightmare Project of the Nineties) and sent out the lexeme index to be checked because I don't read Ugaritic, Akkadian or Persian dialects. Then I was informed by the publisher that the pagination had changed. For the SIXTH TIME!!! Two pages were added after p. 380 of a 942 page book. Thousands of locators will have to be changed by hand. Indexing martyrdom.... Did I mention that I'm being paid a pittance for this work? I finally woke up to the fact that no amount of money was enough to compensate me adequately for the 2+ years that I've laboured over this book, collecting copyright permissions, correcting errors, and dealing with a thoroughly unpleasant and incompetent publisher (one of his more endearing habits is to phone me while eating his lunch). I suggested tactfully to the volume editors that they move me from the preface to the title page, to which they readily agreed--one of the perks of a useless doctorate. It won't make me rich but it'll be another line on my academic CV. End of rant. Have a nice weekend, everyone. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:06:07 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: What's your fav email? In-Reply-To: <199908052054.QAA27193@mail1.cetlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > One thing I would strongly recommend in choosing an ISP is to be sure that > the name is unambiguous in different fonts. Case in point is my current > ISP, Internet 1st. My address is lastword@i1.net. In many fonts that > looks like il.net. I've also had people tell me they couldn't reach me at > 1l.net. Have they had complaints about this? I would have thought a name- change might be advisable for them. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Miller Subject: Thanks Re: Pagemaker help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everyone who answered my question about Pagemaker. I sent a test document this morning, and the author said almost everything worked except some indenting and italics. Someone (I forget who!) made a great suggestion about sending a copy in Word as well, so she will have a hard copy to refer to. I may well be dancing on the table tops when this job is completed! Kari Miller ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:08:59 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: indexing chapters and verses Comments: cc: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I examined a variety of indexes this afternoon, with inconclusive results. The "Index of References" is David Clines' own book, Interested Parties: The Ideology of Writers and Readers of the Hebrew Bible (Sheffield Academic Press, 1995), follows the style prescribed in the Sheffield Manual, as you would expect. Thus one typical sequence goes like this: Job 1-2 1:1-3 1:1 1:2 1:3 1:8 The "Index Locorum Sacrae Scripturae" of St Gregory the Great's Commentaries on the Song of Songs and the First Book of Kings (Corpus Christianorum, Series Latina, CXLIV) follows a different sorting principle, thus: Genesis 3:1 3:1-6 3:5 3:6 3:9 The "Index of Texts" in the final volume of the 9-vol. set The Anti-Nicene Fathers (a photolitho reprint of an original published in 1887) follows a method like Clines' of giving precedence to longer passages first, as in this sequence: Genesis 1 1:1-3 1:1-2 1:1 1:2 1:4,5,7 1:4 So it seems there is long-established precedent for Clines' method in biblical studies. However, the Sheffield Manual is presumably not the only guide available to authors and editors in this field, and I'd suggest seeking out rival publications and comparing their recommendations with Clines'. At least some classical scholars follow a different system, as seen for example in the "Index of Passages Cited" in C. O. Brink's Horace on Poetry (Cambridge University Press, 1963): HORACE Ars Poetica 1-23 1-40 1-152 7-9 However, I found this sequence in an "Index Locorum" to some Pahlavi manuscripts: AVN 1-3 AVN 1.1-17 AVN 1.4 (For ease of comparison, I have standardised the form of the biblical references given above to arabic numerals with a colon separating chapter from verse.) Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 17:16:47 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: indexing chapters and verses (again) Comments: cc: Avital Pinnick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Does this mean that the question of indexing biblical references is not >addressed by the standard indexing handbooks? Strange. Yes, it's true -- and not very strange! There's nothing on your question in the works I cited earlier (Knight, Mulvany, Wellisch, and a collection of articles reprinted from The Indexer). Nor have I found anything relevant in more recent issues of The Indexer (1995-99). Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 10:56:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Indexing statistics on usability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was recently asked the following question. I don't think that such statistics are available, but thought I'd throw it out to the collective wisdom. We *should* try to do some kind of study to come up with such statistics if they don't exist! Do you have any statistics on how having an index lets people find info faster? "Users can locate information 37% faster if the book has an index," that sort of thing. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 09:47:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Indexing statistics on usability In-Reply-To: <88cce87.24dda31e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:56 AM 8/7/99 , you wrote: >I was recently asked the following question. I don't think that such >statistics are available, but thought I'd throw it out to the collective >wisdom. We *should* try to do some kind of study to come up with such >statistics if they don't exist! > >Do you have any statistics on how having an index lets people find info >faster? "Users can locate information 37% faster if the book has an index," >that sort of thing. > >Peg Mauer I would check ASIS for information like that. Lancaster or some such person might know where to find that. I believe Lancaster has recently published a 2nd edition of "Abstracting and Indexing". I would look there first. Linda Kenny Sloan ************************************************************************ Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com Improving customer service through better information access for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 20:57:32 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: indexing chapters and verses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:08 PM 8/7/99 +1200, Simon Cauchi wrote: >The "Index Locorum Sacrae Scripturae" of St Gregory the Great's >Commentaries on the Song of Songs and the First Book of Kings (Corpus >Christianorum, Series Latina, CXLIV) follows a different sorting principle, >thus: >The "Index of Texts" in the final volume of the 9-vol. set The Anti-Nicene >Fathers (a photolitho reprint of an original published in 1887) follows a >method like Clines' of giving precedence to longer passages first, as in >this sequence: CCSL is published in Belgium and ANF and PNF are published in Edinburgh. Maybe Clines' system reflects UK practice? Christine, do you know? >So it seems there is long-established precedent for Clines' method in >biblical studies. However, the Sheffield Manual is presumably not the only >guide available to authors and editors in this field, and I'd suggest >seeking out rival publications and comparing their recommendations with >Clines'. As time is running short and I hope to send out one of the indexes tomorrow (not the one which has to be changed), I will probably resort to that time-honoured course of action: ask the publisher. ;-) The one that is almost finished is for Brill and they do not follow any particular style. As long as it's coherent and follows some accepted order, it'll be okay. Thanks very much for all your trouble. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly