Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG0001A" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:03:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Is this company legit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit < I have no idea what sort of financial condition the company is in; does anyone know how to find out if a company is declaring bankruptcy? I doubt that's true in this case but might want to check, having just reread the Carol Publishing thread (that was my "break" from work today- blech!) > If a company is in the process of filing their bankruptcy petition, it is in their interest to tell you about it. Once the petition is filed, if your name is on it, you will be hearing from the bankruptcy court. While they are still thinking about it, the company would probably play their cards close to the vest. Telling their suppliers too soon risks being cut off prematurely. I may as well take this opportunity to wish everyone on INDEX-L a happy new year. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Bower Subject: Help with USDC Course Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear almost colleagues, At the beginning of a new millennium, I was feeling rather symbolic last night and decided to start my new profession by registering for the USDC course in basic indexing. A strange message about an Expired Security Certificate kept me from doing that last night, but my husband, the alpha geek, is now home from his stint coddling some of the IBM computer network, and we were able to get to the place on the site to register for the course. The first question they ask is, do you want the course for credit, or audit? I certainly want to see my grades, but there is no "organization" looking over my shoulder to see if their money is well spent, so, any idea which box I should check and what the difference is? Thanks for any help and a very Happy New Year to all. Annie of AnDix ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:39:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Is this company legit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/30/1999 10:33:21 AM Central Standard Time, JPerlman@AOL.COM writes: << My course of action would be to call the editor and tell him/her that you will do no further work for them until you are paid for previous work. So they either FedEx you a check immediately, in which case you will do the work on the new project, or you he/she needs to find another indexer. Plain and simple. If they want you to return the page proof, make sure they pay for it by giving you their FedEx #. >> Don't hesitate to do it. I have been in the same situation. One publisher was slow paying and I would not take any new work from them unless it was accompanied by a check for the previous work It worked, but I should have started demanding payment in advance. (I had received complements on my work from both of the editors I worked for at that company, so they knew the work would good and on time. There was no risk on their part in paying in advance.) They filed for chapter 7 recently, so I may never see a penny for the last book. Luckily it was a short, easy book, so I am not out much. I'm now sorry I didn't take them up on their offer to pay me in books from their warehouse--they would have made good Christmas gifts. (FYI, they made that offer after the invoice was several months overdue.) Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 01:32:46 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM Subject: Re: donor lists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You guys are fabulous! Where else can a beginner have the kind of help that is often supplied by a one on one mentor or personal coach. Many thanks! John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:10:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Help with USDA Course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Anne, If what you want is the learning and not the grades, audit does just fine. Welcome to the club. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:10:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Washington, DC Indexing Roundtables meeting Comments: To: dcpubs@egroups.com, indexstudents@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Washington, DC Chapter, American Society of Indexers Indexing Roundtables Saturday, February 12, 2000 10:00am -- 12 noon Cadmus Journal Services Airport Square 7, 940 Elkridge Landing Rd. Linthicum, MD (From Baltimore/Washington Parkway, take West Nursery Rd. to Winterson Road, to Elkridge Landing Rd.) Getting Started in Indexing: Start off the new century thinking about the business of indexing! Barbara De Gennaro will lead this session, though we all know we learn from each other in implementing business strategies. This session will focus on the business of indexing, marketing, working part-time, going full-time, file delivery, etc. Index Education Projects: Editorial Services will talk about their indexing project in the schools. If we're ever going to turn off the question "you do WHAT?" we're going to have to educate our next customers about the structure and use of indexes. Hear too about Fred Leise's adult education course "Begin at the Back of the Book: An Introduction to Using Indexes" and discuss how we could activate such a program in this region. Computer Indexing Applications: We'll take the index we created (in Cindex for DOS) with the Editorial Services project and see how the same index would get formatted in SKY, Cindex for Windows, and Cindex for Macintosh. We will have a Word file of the text to see also how SKY's Better Prose tool and Cindex embed entries into it. There is no fee for this meeting. But please register with Deborah Patton so we can make sure to have enough chairs and hot drinks: deborahpatton@mindspring.com or call 410/243-4688. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:18:24 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: off-topic: B & B's in I-95 snowbird corridor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear INdexers: I'm planning a drive from South Carolina north to New England. Can you recommend any b & b accommodations between SC and Maryland ??? Thanks ! Barbara Stroup********************** Barbara Stroup, Indexer 30 Spruceland Avenue, Springfield, MA 01108 413 785-1835 e-mail indexa2z@the-spa.com **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:25:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Bower Subject: Re: Help with USDA Course In-Reply-To: <0.8aeb164f.25a0ee7b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Diane, Well, even though at 56 I am not looking forward to be graded again, I took the advice of a few people and signed up to get a grade. I'm hoping that will keep me focused and give me a real idea of how I'm doing. As one person said, editor's are now getting smart and asking if you took the course for credit. Are you planning on going to Albuquerque? My husband and I will be there and look forward to meeting everyone. Thanks for taking the time to write. Regards, Annie At 13:10 1/2/00 EST, you wrote: >Dear Anne, > If what you want is the learning and not the grades, audit does just >fine. Welcome to the club. > Diane in Kazoo > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:50:58 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Posada Subject: Re: off-topic: B & B's in I-95 snowbird corridor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Check this link http://www.travelguides.com/bandb/ --- Barbara Stroup wrote: > Dear INdexers: I'm planning a drive from South > Carolina north to New England. Can you recommend any > b & b accommodations between SC and Maryland ??? > Thanks ! ===== John Posada, Merck Research Laboratories Sr Technical Writer, WinHelp and html (work) john_posada@merck.com - 732-594-0873 (pers) jposada01@yahoo.com - 732-291-7811 "When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 08:52:58 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: On-Line indexing of periodicals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 3 January 2000 A very belated thank-you for all the responses to my question about the on-line indexing of a periodical. I really appreciate the expertise and helpfulness of all of you on this discussion group. Thanks again and best wishes for the new year! --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:56:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF560B.6DF03130" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF560B.6DF03130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Dear Indexers: Regarding all the discussion about naming companies who are slow payers or possibly bad debts outright, I have a question: Some years ago my husband and I were in the crafts art circuit, and we would request creditor references from shop or gallery owners on a first-purchase net 30 days; if they could not provide them, we would only ship C.O.D. One formerly "upscale" gallery gave other artists in the exhibition as credit checks, and we soon discovered that the gallery had to be badgered and threatened repeatedly to pay up. When we approached the gallery owner about the situation, before we sent our hand-wrought products, the owner threatened legal action against crafts-artists who "smeared" or libeled their reputation. Has anyone in indexing had a similar experience? I think it is an excellent idea to share information about companies who are poor pays when, like crafts artists, the small business relies only on the skill of a single indexer who works very hard alone. I would like to see it continue, but I am concerned that some arrogant owner or lawyer might become vindictive. What is the collective opinion? Do you really need to name a name? Might this eventually lead to the creation of a blacklist and get us all in trouble? Would we be better off with giving general advice and strategies? Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning-- one crow after another. [Basho] ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF560B.6DF03130 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Indexers:

Regarding all the = discussion about naming companies who are slow payers or possibly bad = debts outright, I have a question:  Some years ago my husband and = I were in the crafts art circuit, and we would request creditor = references from shop or gallery owners on a first-purchase net 30 days; = if they could not provide them, we would only ship C.O.D.  One = formerly "upscale" gallery gave other artists in the = exhibition as credit checks, and we soon discovered that the gallery = had to be badgered and threatened repeatedly to pay up.  When we = approached the gallery owner about the situation, before we sent our = hand-wrought products, the owner threatened legal action against = crafts-artists who "smeared" or libeled their = reputation.  Has anyone in indexing had a similar = experience?

I think it is an excellent = idea to share information about companies who are poor pays when, like = crafts artists, the small business relies only on the skill of a single = indexer who works very hard alone.  I would like to see it = continue, but I am concerned that some arrogant owner or lawyer might = become vindictive.  What is the collective opinion?  Do you = really need to name a name?  Might this eventually lead to the = creation of a blacklist and get us all in trouble?  Would we be = better off with giving general advice and strategies?


Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor

Academic and Administrative Documents

Arizona State University

e-mail:  dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after = another.   [Basho]

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF560B.6DF03130-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:30:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: OFFTOPIC: Student project help needed In-Reply-To: <0.529f90bc.258a8115@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My apologies for taking list time, but I need help for my 8-year old daughter's school project. Her class is studying the United States & the teacher is encouraging them to ask friends and family to send postcards from different states sharing some of the unique features of their state. As it happens my family all lives in PA & all within an hour of one another. If anyone is able to take time to send her a picture postcard, I'd greatly appreciate it. This can be anytime, now through March. Katherine Guenther in care of Mrs. Mayer's class Bradford Heights Elementary School 1330 Romig Road Downingtown, PA 19335 Thanks & my apologies again, Nancy Guenther ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 14:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faye Ratcliff Subject: Indexing course resale? I have been in business as a legal transcriptionist and scopist [translation of stenotype] since 1992. I am interested in book indexing and have been intestigating it. I feel I have the basic skills, but need further training. Since I work full-time from a home office, I am not sure I want to commit to taking a course right now. Is it appropriate to ask if anyone who has finished their course would consider reselling their materials? If not, please excuse this post. I know it is an acceptable practice in scoping. I trained for that profession for a year before starting out and have been approached about selling my materials to beginners. I realize this means that there would be no feedback from instructors. But if anyone has any info on this, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Faye Ratcliff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:12:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:56 AM 1/3/2000 -0700, Dorothy Dirienzi wrote: >Dear Indexers: > When we approached the gallery owner about the >situation, before we sent our hand-wrought products, the owner threatened >legal action against crafts-artists who "smeared" or libeled their >reputation. Has anyone in indexing had a similar experience? I haven't...but I can tell you a couple of things that affect this situation. One, anybody can sue anybody for anything. Winning, however, is a different matter entirely. And two, if the artists gave you accurate, honest information, they cannot be SUCCESSFULLY sued for slander or libel. If you report that Company A has taken an average of 60 days to pay invoices, and that you've had to threaten to sue them in order to get some of your bills paid, that's not slander as long as it's true. OTOH, if, given the same information, you state that Company A is run by a bunch of liars and thieves who routinely try to screw freelancers out of their hard-earned money, that may very well be actionable. I work as a moderator for a national online service, and one of the issues we face is exactly this kind of thing: How to allow people to disseminate "bad" information about a company without exposing the online service to possible suits. The most common method is for somebody to post that they have had a bad experience with a company, describe it well enough so that others have at least a general idea of which company it is, and then request that people ask for more details in email, rather than posting the nitty-gritty stuff in public. The key here is to NOT name the company publicly, nor identify it down to the last jot and tittle, but to give a general description. It would be easy enough, given that our profession is pretty small and the group of companies that hire us is fairly limited, to say something like, "I recently had a bad experience with a small university press in the Western U.S. Please email me for details, if you think you might also be working for this organization," or "I'm having trouble collecting on an invoice issued to one of the largest trade presses in New England...", and so forth. Most of us would know pretty much right away whether or not either of these companies sounded familiar. We need to remember that this is an open list, and anybody may subscribe. In fact, an editor with that very company may be reading your message as soon as you send it. While truth is an absolute defense against slander or libel, I wouldn't want to risk the "anybody can sue anybody" situation if it's possible to avoid it. We also need to remember that some of these situations may not, in fact, be the fault of the company. Much as we might like to think that all our colleagues are at least as good as we are at what they do, we don't know that for a fact. And we also don't know when personalities and emotions have overtaken the situation. The company may have withheld payment for a perfect good reason, or the editor and indexer may have gotten into a personal vendetta that doesn't even really involve the company at all. This has all been a rather long-winded way of saying that a certain amount of circumspection is in order, IMO, when we talk about slow-pay, no-pay situations or other outrages of freelancing. Yes, I DO want to know if one of my clients has developed a problem regarding freelance payments (and I DO want others who might be in the same situation to know, if I'm the one with the info). But I think I will stick to generalities on the list, and ask that people email me for specific details. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:25:08 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: slow/no payment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/3/2000 11:04:41 AM Central Standard Time, DOROTHY.DIRIENZI@ASU.EDU writes: << When we approached the gallery owner about the situation, before we sent our hand-wrought products, the owner threatened legal action against crafts-artists who "smeared" or libeled their reputation. Has anyone in indexing had a similar experience? >> My experience in general is that dishonest people always blame or threaten others when they are caught. I wonder what the real chance of a law suit is based on. Our businesses are so small, that we may be easy to intimidate. Any legal action is likely to be a terrible burden. We may have to weigh ethics against fear. Index-L is a type of community. Ethically, can we allow members of our community to be cheated? Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 15:30:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shana Milkie Subject: Re: Indexing course resale? In-Reply-To: <200001031929.OAA05817@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Faye, I can understand your reticence in not wanting to sign up for a course when you're already working full-time, but you can take a good long time to do it. Many people take a full year to complete the course, and some even more (like me). The course materials are a spiral-bound notebook and Nancy Mulvany's book "Indexing Books." You tear out the pages from the notebook for your assignments, so it's not easy to re-use the notebook. I think the cost for the course is something like $350. If you don't want to sign up for the course, I would recommend buying the Mulvany book (approx. $35?) and practicing writing indexes on your own. Good luck adding indexing to your freelancing skills! - Shana Milkie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:57:07 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM Subject: name index revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All, If I have a main index and a name index, does this mean that no names will show up in the main index? Or might names appear under headings such as "Board of Trustees", or "Class of 1995"? TIA, John ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:07:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Re: indexing course MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know where you are located, but I recommend Susan Holbert's basic= indexing course which she gives several times a year in Boston. It's a one-day course. = I think she's linked to the ASI web page, if not please get back to me an= d I'll find her URL for you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Judith W. Kip Indexing Owego, New York = JudithKip@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:19:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: name index revisited In-Reply-To: <0.da91756d.25a27533@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: I think it depends on how much a specific person is discussed in the text. For instance, if an entire chapter discusses the actions of one person, it would make sense to list that name in both the subject and the name index. Of course, you can also put a note at the beginning of the subject index referring readers to the name index to get the listing of pages for each of the names in the text. Just my .02 cents worth.... Willa (who hasn't made any resolutions so far.....) At 04:57 PM 1/3/00 -0500, you wrote: >Dear All, If I have a main index and a name index, does this mean that no >names will show up in the main index? Or might names appear under headings >such as "Board of Trustees", or "Class of 1995"? >TIA, John Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 17:02:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Deadbeat clients MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dorothy Dirienzi asks several questions about identifying slow-paying clients and mentions an incident in which a gallery threatened legal action against artists who discussed their collection problems openly. This is not a new topic on this list. Some others on the list disagree with me on this, but I see no problem in identifying clients who are habitual slow payers. Just stick to the truth and tell your experiences without advising others about whether or not they should work for such clients. I've mentioned both on this list and at meetings of the New York City Chapter of the American Society of Indexers and of the Editorial Freelancers Association that Bookbuilders, Inc. (BBI), a book packager, takes between six and eight months to pay freelance indexers who have worked for them. This has been the experience of several New-York-based indexers, not just me. About three years ago BBI owed me for two large outstanding invoices. At the time I took the unusual step of contacting BBI's clients, the publishers of the books I had indexed. Since I had not been paid, I still owed the copyrights on my indexes. I informed the publishers that they were publishing material which they did not own. BBI was furious! They threatened to sue me. I told them to go ahead and sue me! I called their bluff. If they did sue, I would have been more than happy to send out press releases announcing it. To make a long story short, after exchanging threats, I received every penny owed to me. By the way, as far as I know, BBI still has the reputation of being a slow payer. If anyone has information which contradicts this, please let me know, either in a public posting or a private communication. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 18:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DINA PALLAZOLA Subject: Re: Indexing course resale? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! Usually, I would agree with you. I am a committed self-studier. However, in this course there is much teacher feedback that you just can't get in the book. I completely lesson 5, went over it several times, and thought it was perfect! I got a 71! My instructor explained that it's supposed to be part of the learning process. From what I hear on this list and on the index student's list, I'm not alone with my grade! BTW, I am also a scopist. Right now, I work for my sister on Global Cat software. Can you write me off list and let me know about your business? Do you do any work long distance by e-mail? What software do you use? Is there a list for scopists? You get the idea. Sorry everyone, for getting off topic! Dina ------Original Message------ From: Faye Ratcliff To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Sent: January 3, 2000 7:25:37 PM GMT Subject: Indexing course resale? I have been in business as a legal transcriptionist and scopist [translation of stenotype] since 1992. I am interested in book indexing and have been intestigating it. I feel I have the basic skills, but need further training. Since I work full-time from a home office, I am not sure I want to commit to taking a course right now. Is it appropriate to ask if anyone who has finished their course would consider reselling their materials? If not, please excuse this post. I know it is an acceptable practice in scoping. I trained for that profession for a year before starting out and have been approached about selling my materials to beginners. I realize this means that there would be no feedback from instructors. But if anyone has any info on this, it would be greatly appreciated. TIA, Faye Ratcliff ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com?sr=mc.mk.mcm.tag001 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:25:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: Indexing course resale? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am among those who believe that feedback and grades give the USDA course its value. I tried practice books and reading Mulvany and others on my own before taking the course, but I really learned some of the important indexing techniques from having an instructor and having to complete lessons on time. Jean Middleton jeanmidd@prodigy.net http://www.indexempire.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 22:31:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jmazefsky@AOL.COM Subject: Job opportunity: Consulting for Voyetra Turtle Beach (Files in Robohelp) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.2300d5a2.25a2c3ac_boundary" --part1_0.2300d5a2.25a2c3ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all - This company urgently needs someone to work on this project (on an ongoing basis). Please respond directly to Ms. Harris. Janet Mazefsky --part1_0.2300d5a2.25a2c3ac_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh02.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:19:49 -0500 Received: from exch-1.voyetra.com ([12.14.112.106]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:19:34 -0500 Received: by EXCH-1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:19:24 -0500 Message-ID: <11EE7B923FA7D3118D74005004E221A0038F41@EXCH-1> From: Nicole Harris To: "'Jmazefsky@aol.com'" Cc: Seth Dotterer Subject: RE: Consulting for Voyetra Turtle Beach Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 11:19:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Janet, Thanks for responding to my email. Here is the scope of the project I mentioned in my email: Help files for CD ROM of Music Notation Program "Music Write 2000 - Standard Edition" - Created in Robohelp 5.0. Word count: 38,000 - WinHelp. We have the ground work - basic help files in MS Word, but they need to be edited and cleaned up - These basic Help Files were created by downsizing the Pro version for the Standard Edition. The bug count is 65. Missing items are to be found in the PRO version. Deadline : ASAP - very urgent - our original deadline is next Monday. If this is something that you cannot do, I would appreciate if you could send me the email address of Index-L and ASI-L. We will need consultants on a regular basis. Thank you, Nicole -----Original Message----- From: Jmazefsky@aol.com [mailto:Jmazefsky@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 10:53 PM To: nharris@exch-1.voyetra.com Subject: Re: Consulting for Voyetra Turtle Beach Dear Nicole: Could we talk in person about this project? I am not sure that it is something that I would be able to do, but I could certainly get some names for you. Another possibility is forwarding it to an indexing listserv (Index-L or ASI-L), which I can do for you ... though you may be inundated with responses! Anyway, here is my phone number: 212-427-7375. I'll be around Friday morning, then can retrieve messages on my voicemail. Janet --part1_0.2300d5a2.25a2c3ac_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:19:13 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: slow/no payment In-Reply-To: <0.30f61f71.25a25fa4@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > We may have to weigh ethics against fear. Index-L is a type of community. > Ethically, can we allow members of our community to be cheated? > > It seems to me it must depend whether a remark distributed on Index- L could be construed as libel. The usual thing would be for Societies such as SI or ASI to publish from time to time a list of troublesome clients saying merely that if a client is on the list please contact so-and-so before accepting work from them. 'So-and-so' being someone in the society who will give info confidentially. I am not a lawyer, but I assume that there is little risk of litigation from clients so mentioned. This is an advantage of belonging to a professional Society, if it provides such a service. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:40:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: name index revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Abbott has questions about what belongs in a subject index when you have a separate name index. First, the usual advice: ask your editor for instructions. Find out what your client wants. Once you have this information here are some suggestions. While, as a general rule, names are not headings in a subject index, they certainly can be subheadings. While name indexes usually do not contain subheads, subject indexes do, so in some cases where the discussion of the works or ideas of an individual dominates a chapter or more of a book, I have no problem seeing that person as belonging in the subject index. For example, Marx, Weber and Freud may belong in the subject indexes of sociology and psychology text books. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 08:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: slow/no payment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against slow-paying clients through our professional societies > The usual thing would be for Societies such as SI or ASI to publish > from time to time a list of troublesome clients saying merely that if a > client is on the list please contact so-and-so before accepting work > from them. 'So-and-so' being someone in the society who will give > info confidentially. I am not a lawyer, but I assume that there is little > risk of litigation from clients so mentioned. > > This is an advantage of belonging to a professional Society, if it > provides such a service. This is an interesting proposal. Unfortunately, the indexing societies will never go along with this or any similar proposal. The American Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the other indexing societies are not exclusively for freelancers. The very clients who are cheap or slow-paying can be members or even officers of our professional societies. I've been a member of ASI since its early years (ASI was founded in 1969. I joined in 1971.) and I can not remember ASI ever taking a stand in which it supported the claims of freelance indexers against the interests of publishers and other clients. Both ASI and SI exist to further the interests of "indexing" in the abstract, not the interests of indexers. This may be because the leaderships of the organizations, over the course of their histories, have believed that their tax exemptions would be endangered if they ever took a strong stand on anything. I am not convinced that this interpretation of the tax codes is correct. Our societies are closer to being trade associations than they are to being charities. They should have the same right of advocacy as other trade associations. I know that not everyone shares this view. I encourage others to state their views, just don't let this become a flame war. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:16:20 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Building an Index in QuarkXPress 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is an article in the February 2000 (current issue) Macworld entitled: Building an Index in QuarkXPress 4 by David Blatner (pps. 104-106) that might be of interest for someone. The author know the difference between a concordance and an index and he is talking about indexing . I'm not familiar with QuarkXPress so I won't comment further. LH Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:07:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Durbin-Westby Subject: Re: slow/no payment Comments: To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't see anything wrong with naming a company who is habitually slow = in paying me. I knew all along that were slow, but then they got even = slower, right after I had done quite a few projects for them. I = wondered if anyone was in the same boat, and I also wanted to let my = colleagues know that the company is a s-l-o-w payer. I have had to "go = after" twelve payments this year, and didn't feel compelled to name the = authors or publishers because it was mostly a one-time thing; a = forgetful author, a misplaced invoice. These things happen. (I won't = tell you how many of the twelve were all the same company!) I did have a check come in six months late yesterday. This particular = company has no prior history, with me anyway, of late payments. I = neglected to notice that they hadn't paid me; I think if I had called = them I would have received prompt payment. (And, considering how annoyed = I was with R&L/UPA, I feel almost relieved that I *didn't* notice the = other missing payment!) You can make your own decision about whether or not to work for a = company who has been slow in paying its freelancers. I believe my = mistake was in taking on several projects. One late payment would have = been an annoyance rather than a problem for me. Lesson learned! I'm sure the company could threaten to sue me, but they'd only be suing = me for stating a fact. I think it would be hard to construe "this = company has always paid me late" as libel. I'm not sure why the company can't pay on time when other companies can, = so I won't speculate online, although I have done so offline! :) Best regards, Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Durbin-Westby Subject: Re: Is this company legit? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reporting in! I received one payment from the company for the first project. This one = was paid in 90 days. They still owe me for three. One is past 60 days = overdue, the others are more recent. Since they are paying within 90 = days I don't expect to see payment for these two before late March. =20 I've decided to do the one on my desk, since I did receive a check. I = don't expect to be paid for it until April. I am also doing a small R&L = book for a packager who says I will receive prompt payment, not = dependent on R&L/UPA's cash flow. I've been told that they have a cash flow problem but are not going = under financially. No one I've talked to foresees them solving their = problem anytime soon. I've made some decisions about what conditions need to be met before I = will accept future work from this corporation. They'll need to sign a = contract with me, for one thing. I may need to have part of the payment = in advance, definitely so if it's a large project. I certainly will = have to have been paid for any prior work. Since I have quite a few = clients I may elect to avoid them altogether. On- or offline responses welcome! Best, Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:41:42 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SFrankmail@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Washington, DC Indexing Roundtables meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are these roundtable discussions held concurrently in the 2-hour time frame? If so, do you have to pick just one topic? Or are they held singularly? It seems that the time frame is very short, so I am curious. Thanks in advance for the clarification. Sandi Frank sfrankmail@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:51:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Indexing an introductory list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have gotten into the habit of critiquing the indexes in books I read as a way to hone my techniques. I have noticed several cases where mentions were indexed that I would not have included. I'd like some input on the situation, which follows. An introductory paragraph to a chapter or major section of a book lists items to be discussed in the following sections of that chapter. For example, "A thingamajing consists of several components: (1) a widgit, (2) a bauble, (3) a bangle and (4) a bead." Then immediately after that paragraph are sections on each of those items. I have been indexing the sections but *not* the introductory paragraph, which contains nothing more than a list. I guess you could argue that the relationship of the topics is pertinent info that should be indexed, but in the instances I have seen that relationship has been evident anyway. What do you think? Should the mentions in that paragraph be indexed? I'll be interested in your opinions. Thanks, Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: Washington, DC Indexing Roundtables meeting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two will be concurrent (getting started in indexing and teaching indexing in schools and other places) and the third one on the software is for all of us. Deborah Patton Washington, DC Chapter Chair 1999-2000 deborahpatton@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing an introductory list In-Reply-To: <200001041558.KAA28709@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > An introductory paragraph to a chapter or major section of a book lists > items to be discussed in the following sections of that chapter. For > example, "A thingamajing consists of several components: (1) a > widgit, (2) a > bauble, (3) a bangle and (4) a bead." Then immediately after that > paragraph > are sections on each of those items. > > I have been indexing the sections but *not* the introductory paragraph, > which contains nothing more than a list. I guess you could argue that the > relationship of the topics is pertinent info that should be > indexed, but in > the instances I have seen that relationship has been evident anyway. > > What do you think? Should the mentions in that paragraph be > indexed? I'll be > interested in your opinions. > I only index the introductory paragraph if the items are *defined* there, not simply listed. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:19:48 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: Slow or no pays MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF56D7.E76D2D34" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF56D7.E76D2D34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Elliot Linzer has mentioned the following about a suggestion for advocacy on the part of the indexing societies: John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against slow-paying clients through our professional societies This is an interesting proposal. Unfortunately, the indexing societies will never go along with this or any similar proposal. The American Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the other indexing societies are not exclusively for freelancers. The very clients who are cheap or slow-paying can be members or even officers of our professional societies. I do not know anything about tax status being jeoparidized, but the legal entanglements that might ensue strike me as an extraordinary committment that probably goes way beyond the capacity of the volunteer board and extant monies to support. Moreover, I would dislike seeing litigation or whatever on behalf of individuals take over the primary functions of the societies, which I suspect might easily occur. We are a small group that is struggling for identification from publishers and editors who know less and less, I fear, about "what" we do. If our professional organization were to become embroiled in disputes with publishers, it would be difficult for it to simultaneously advocate using professional indexing services. Rather, I very much like the sort of exchange and support I see going on here. If the topic of "slow" or "nonpayers" has not yet been addressed in Keywords or The Indexer, it should be--advice on how to proceed. Also, I very much like Elliot's contention that ownership of a index resides with the indexer until payment for the work is achieved. I am seriously thinking of putting some sort of statement to that effect in an "acceptance of work" letter to new clients, just to give them a heads-up. I think that is an excellent idea. (There is no need for flame wars on this or any other issues. As mature adults, we discuss ideas.) I appreciate everyone's response to my initial inquiry about this issue; you have been quite helpful. Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning-- one crow after another. [Basho] ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF56D7.E76D2D34 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Slow or no pays

Elliot Linzer has = mentioned the following about a suggestion for advocacy on the part of = the indexing societies:

        John Sampson suggests = that we take collective action against slow-paying
clients through our = professional societies

        This is an interesting = proposal.  Unfortunately, the indexing societies
will never go along with this = or any similar proposal.  The American
Society of Indexers, the = Society of Indexers (UK) and the other indexing
societies are not exclusively = for freelancers.  The very clients who are
cheap or slow-paying can be = members or even officers of our professional
societies. 

I do not know anything = about tax status being jeoparidized, but the legal entanglements that = might ensue strike me as an extraordinary committment that probably = goes way beyond the capacity of the volunteer board and extant monies = to support.  Moreover, I would dislike seeing litigation or = whatever on behalf of individuals take over the primary functions of = the societies, which I suspect  might easily occur.  We are a = small group that is struggling for identification from publishers and = editors who know less and less, I fear, about "what" we = do.  If our professional organization were to become embroiled in = disputes with publishers, it would be difficult for it to = simultaneously advocate using professional indexing = services.

Rather, I very much like = the sort of exchange and support I see going on here.  If the = topic of "slow" or "nonpayers" has not yet been = addressed in Keywords or The Indexer, it should be--advice on how to = proceed.  Also, I very much like Elliot's contention that = ownership of a index resides with the indexer until payment for the = work is achieved.  I am seriously thinking of putting some sort of = statement to that effect in an "acceptance of work" letter to = new clients, just to give them a heads-up.  I think that is an = excellent idea.

(There is no need for = flame wars on this or any other issues.  As mature adults, we = discuss ideas.)  I appreciate everyone's response to my initial = inquiry about this issue; you have been quite helpful.

Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor

Academic and Administrative Documents

Arizona State University

e-mail:  dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after = another.   [Basho]

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF56D7.E76D2D34-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:42:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: OT: What's a scopist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Slow or no pays Comments: To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A0_01BF56B1.13613100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01BF56B1.13613100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Slow or no paysThis is an interesting point. I think that the = indexing organizations might want to look at taking up some sort of = banner for freelance indexers. While slander and libel (and their = near-relations, innuendo and blacklisting) may not be the sort of thing = they should do, it might be worthwhile to actively promote the knowledge = that freelance indexers own the copyright of indexes that are unbought = (you know what I mean). Advocacy of our rights and publicity of same do = appear to benefit "indexing" as a field, in addition to indexers as = people. Publishers should know that indexing is a creative, original = skill and that they need to respect the conventions of the field. You = can't go begging for respect unless you do something to earn it. Stand = up and fuss if need be. I'm thinking of putting a statement on my = invoice that would indicate that I own the damn index until they pay and = they will be in violation of my copyright if they publish before it is = paid for. That ought to get their attention. Dan ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dorothy Dirienzi=20 To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 12:19 PM Subject: Re: Slow or no pays Elliot Linzer has mentioned the following about a suggestion for = advocacy on the part of the indexing societies:=20 John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against = slow-paying=20 clients through our professional societies=20 This is an interesting proposal. Unfortunately, the indexing = societies=20 will never go along with this or any similar proposal. The American=20 Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the other = indexing=20 societies are not exclusively for freelancers. The very clients who = are=20 cheap or slow-paying can be members or even officers of our = professional=20 societies. =20 I do not know anything about tax status being jeoparidized, but the = legal entanglements that might ensue strike me as an extraordinary = committment that probably goes way beyond the capacity of the volunteer = board and extant monies to support. Moreover, I would dislike seeing = litigation or whatever on behalf of individuals take over the primary = functions of the societies, which I suspect might easily occur. We are = a small group that is struggling for identification from publishers and = editors who know less and less, I fear, about "what" we do. If our = professional organization were to become embroiled in disputes with = publishers, it would be difficult for it to simultaneously advocate = using professional indexing services. Rather, I very much like the sort of exchange and support I see going = on here. If the topic of "slow" or "nonpayers" has not yet been = addressed in Keywords or The Indexer, it should be--advice on how to = proceed. Also, I very much like Elliot's contention that ownership of a = index resides with the indexer until payment for the work is achieved. = I am seriously thinking of putting some sort of statement to that effect = in an "acceptance of work" letter to new clients, just to give them a = heads-up. I think that is an excellent idea. (There is no need for flame wars on this or any other issues. As = mature adults, we discuss ideas.) I appreciate everyone's response to = my initial inquiry about this issue; you have been quite helpful. Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning--=20 one crow=20 after another. [Basho]=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01BF56B1.13613100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Slow or no pays
This is an interesting point. I think that the = indexing=20 organizations might want to look at taking up some sort of banner for = freelance=20 indexers. While slander and libel (and their near-relations, innuendo = and=20 blacklisting) may not be the sort of thing they should do, it might be=20 worthwhile to actively promote the knowledge that freelance indexers own = the=20 copyright of indexes that are unbought (you know what I mean). Advocacy = of our=20 rights and publicity of same do appear to benefit "indexing" as a field, = in=20 addition to indexers as people. Publishers should know that indexing is = a=20 creative, original skill and that they need to respect the conventions = of the=20 field. You can't go begging for respect unless you do something to earn = it.=20 Stand up and fuss if need be. I'm thinking of putting a statement on my = invoice=20 that would indicate that I own the damn index until they pay and they = will be in=20 violation of my copyright if they publish before it is paid for. That = ought to=20 get their attention.
 
Dan
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dorothy Dirienzi
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 = 12:19=20 PM
Subject: Re: Slow or no = pays

Elliot Linzer has mentioned = the following=20 about a suggestion for advocacy on the part of the indexing = societies:=20

       =20 John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against=20 slow-paying
clients = through our=20 professional societies

       =20 This is an interesting proposal.  Unfortunately, the indexing=20 societies
will never go = along with=20 this or any similar proposal.  The American
Society of Indexers, the Society of = Indexers (UK)=20 and the other indexing
societies=20 are not exclusively for freelancers.  The very clients who = are=20
cheap or slow-paying can be = members or=20 even officers of our professional
societies. 

I do not know anything about = tax status=20 being jeoparidized, but the legal entanglements that might ensue = strike me as=20 an extraordinary committment that probably goes way beyond the = capacity of the=20 volunteer board and extant monies to support.  Moreover, I would = dislike=20 seeing litigation or whatever on behalf of individuals take over the = primary=20 functions of the societies, which I suspect  might easily = occur.  We=20 are a small group that is struggling for identification from = publishers and=20 editors who know less and less, I fear, about "what" we do.  If = our=20 professional organization were to become embroiled in disputes with=20 publishers, it would be difficult for it to simultaneously advocate = using=20 professional indexing services.

Rather, I very much like the = sort of=20 exchange and support I see going on here.  If the topic of "slow" = or=20 "nonpayers" has not yet been addressed in Keywords or The Indexer, it = should=20 be--advice on how to proceed.  Also, I very much like Elliot's = contention=20 that ownership of a index resides with the indexer until payment for = the work=20 is achieved.  I am seriously thinking of putting some sort of = statement=20 to that effect in an "acceptance of work" letter to new clients, just = to give=20 them a heads-up.  I think that is an excellent idea.

(There is no need for flame = wars on this=20 or any other issues.  As mature adults, we discuss ideas.)  = I=20 appreciate everyone's response to my initial inquiry about this issue; = you=20 have been quite helpful.

Dorothy DiRienzi,=20 Associate Editor

Academic and=20 Administrative Documents

Arizona State=20 University

e-mail: =20 dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after another.   [Basho]=20

------=_NextPart_000_00A0_01BF56B1.13613100-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 10:59:29 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Russell Subject: coming out of hiding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF56A2.C611F6E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF56A2.C611F6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All,=20 I have been lurking on this site for quite some time. I have learned a = lot just listening in on your comments and discussions. But, with the = new year, I have decided to stop hiding, here and to publishers, and = make a real effort to get this business off the ground. I am currently = working on Lesson 10 of the USDA course but still don't feel very = confident in my abilities. I have, however, decided that the best thing = to do is to jump in, so I am planning to start marketing my services. I = am wondering how other people presented themselves when marketing before = finishing the course? Do you say you have completed the course = (expecting that you will finish soon) or that you are currently working = on the course? I am also wondering if there are other people on this = list from Vancouver, BC? Wishing everyone a happy and successful new year, Sharon Russell ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF56A2.C611F6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All,
I have been lurking on this site for = quite some=20 time. I have learned a lot just listening in on your comments and=20 discussions. But, with the new year, I have decided to stop hiding, = here and to=20 publishers, and make a real effort to get this business off the ground. = I am=20 currently working on Lesson 10 of the USDA course but still don't feel = very=20 confident in my abilities. I have, however, decided that the best = thing to=20 do is to jump in, so I am planning to start marketing my services. I am=20 wondering how other people presented themselves when marketing before = finishing=20 the course? Do you say you have completed the course (expecting = that you=20 will finish soon) or that you are currently working on the course? I am = also=20 wondering if there are other people on this list from Vancouver,=20 BC?
 
Wishing everyone a happy and successful = new=20 year,
 
Sharon = Russell
------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF56A2.C611F6E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:50:08 -0500 Reply-To: Elizabeth Felicetti Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Felicetti Subject: Re: coming out of hiding MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF56C2.FE953A20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF56C2.FE953A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sharon. I am also mostly a lurker. I have not yet finished the USDA = course, however, and I have started getting some jobs. I note on my = resume that I am currently enrolled in the course. I also took Susan = Holbert's video workshop, and note that one as "completed." Best of luck to you! Elizabeth Felicetti freelance literary services (757) 638-4948 (757) 638-4947 (fax) efelicetti@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF56C2.FE953A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sharon. I am also mostly a lurker. I = have not=20 yet finished the USDA course, however, and I have started getting some = jobs. I=20 note on my resume that I am currently enrolled in the course. I also = took Susan=20 Holbert's video workshop, and note that one as "completed."
 
Best of luck to you!
 
Elizabeth Felicetti
freelance literary services
(757)=20 638-4948
(757) 638-4947 (fax)
efelicetti@earthlink.net
 
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BF56C2.FE953A20-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:02:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carroll Smith Subject: Re: OT: What's a scopist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you run a search on www.dogpile.com you will find a number of people offering this service. It appears to be the process of converting the tapes created by the court stenographer's steno machine to readable text. It is a service sold to court stenographers. cas Karen Field wrote: > Can anyone enlighten me? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:24:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi all. The subject I've put on this post comes from a bumper sticker I got in a packet of materials from an indexing workshop I attended last spring. I liked it so much, I put it on my office door at work, where, as you can probably imagine, I got lots of very strange looks. Anyway, I was wondering if any of you out there had actually heard of *kids* being taught at least elementary indexing in school? My middle schooler had a reading project (the subject is really called "Reading" BTW) to make a book. There were lots of things to put in there, most of which was mandated by the assignment. One of the things was an index to the "book" which had to contain at least 10 items. I asked my son if he was actually taught how to do this and he said no (although he may have not been paying attention when she did go over it). I guess the teacher figured the kids would have to look up how to do it or copy a style from a book. Thankfully, I was there, and gave him some pointers of how to start it (I didn't want to do it *for* him of course). We won't know until around February what grade he got on the assignment, but I was just curious if anyone had similar experiences. Happy New Year to one and all. elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 12:51:37 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: OT: What's a scopist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Would you believe there is a scopists.com WEB site that explains in detail what scopists do. Is this a great NET or what? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:02:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Blair Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello. That question on children learning to index is interesting. I have a fifth grader, but he has yet to have such an assignment. This might be a good lesson to teach kiddos--as a librarian, I have seen that our youth don't fully know how to use an index. Maybe if they had to create one, they would appreciate its value more. --angela washington-blair, ph.d, aka "Index Doctor" --drawblair@juno.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Elaine R. Firestone [SMTP:elaine@SEAWIFS.GSFC.NASA.GOV] > Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2000 8:24 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? > > Hi all. The subject I've put on this post comes from a bumper > sticker I got in a packet of materials from an indexing workshop I > attended last spring. I liked it so much, I put it on my office door > at work, where, as you can probably imagine, I got lots of very > strange looks. > > Anyway, I was wondering if any of you out there had actually heard of > *kids* being taught at least elementary indexing in school? My > middle schooler had a reading project (the subject is really called > "Reading" BTW) to make a book. There were lots of things to put in > there, most of which was mandated by the assignment. One of the > things was an index to the "book" which had to contain at least 10 > items. I asked my son if he was actually taught how to do this and > he said no (although he may have not been paying attention when she > did go over it). I guess the teacher figured the kids would have to > look up how to do it or copy a style from a book. Thankfully, I was > there, and gave him some pointers of how to start it (I didn't want > to do it *for* him of course). We won't know until around February > what grade he got on the assignment, but I was just curious if anyone > had similar experiences. > > Happy New Year to one and all. > > elaine > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:11:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This type of project probably doesn't happen much around the country. That's one reason the ASI Board talked about initiating such a project in local areas. As far as I know, Maria Coughlin and her crew at Editorial Services in Annapolis are the only ones who've taken on such a project. That's the same bunch who printed up the bumper sticker you have and are selling them to provide $$ for educational programs for the Washington, DC Chapt. of ASI. They did a presentation to the ASI annual conference in Denver about their program, but we in the DC Chapter haven't all heard about it. So on February 12... -- well refer to the previous announcement about our upcoming chapter meeting. If you want a bumper sticker or want to come to our meeting, let me know -- happy indexing, Deborah Deborah Patton Washington, DC Chapter Chair, 1999-2000 deborahpatton@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 21:25:20 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hello - Elliott Linzer points out that since the SI and ASI are not exclusively for freelances they would not publish lists of problem clients. In the SI Constitution I find no express remit to guard the interests of indexers against clients. However, the Registrar does give advice and help in cases of conflict, such as payment difficulties. I don't know if the ASI has an equivalent. Knowing that a supplier is a member of a professional Society should be some deterrent to a client taking him/her to the cleaners. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:49:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: great moments in indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had to go to a new doctor today for a small orthopedic matter. The doc asked me what I do for a living. He knew immediately what an indexer is. In fact, he started telling me about Nelson's Pediatric something-or-other that he believed Nelson's daughter-in-law indexed. He got that far and I said "Birds, for the!" And he knew I really did index because who else would have known about that wonderful indexing joke. We had a good laugh over it. For those of you who don't know about Nelson's annual volume that in 1959 had this marvelous entry, you can get better specifics from the ASI website (www.asindexing.org). I'm sure I've mangled the specifics about Nelson's volume, but as the good indexer that I hope I am, I know where to look it up. This doctor may have even had the 1959 version -- he definately knew this entry wasn't there in 1958 or 1960... and he had a solution for my small orthopedic matter. Hurray! happy indexing, Deborah ================================= Deborah E. Patton, Indexer deborahpatton@mindspring.com http://pattonindexing.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:14:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: name index revisited In-Reply-To: <200001040505.AAA24843@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Dear All, If I have a main index and a name index, does this mean that no >names will show up in the main index? Or might names appear under headings >such as "Board of Trustees", or "Class of 1995"? Only personal names should appear in the index, not names of organizations or anything else that's not a person. As for the subject index, although almost all personal names would go into the name index, I could imagine *some* kinds of personal names that would end up in the subject index, e.g., fictional names, names of animals (maybe they don't even count as personal names, but they should!). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 16:14:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Deadbeat clients In-Reply-To: <200001040505.AAA24843@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree with Elliot, and I, too, have posted the name of a publisher that refused to pay until I hired a lawyer (Genesis Press), who sent a threatening letter. Actually, Elliot's post made me realize there's another good reason to post such info, assuming you feel comfortable doing that. Some indexers aren't too concerned with a longish wait, so long as they get paid eventually. If somebody says, I've done 3 books for Company X, and they are so slow at paying, blah, blah, blah, I might then relax about Company X. I could accept jobs from them, knowing that I'll have to allow for a long wait but that doesn't mean they're not going to pay. I do a lot of work for University of California Press. The editors are wonderful to work with and very warm people, they publish interesting books, rates are open to negotiation, *but* they have sometimes taken 6 weeks or longer to pay. Fortunately, they have a new accounting system and have been much quicker lately. My point is, since I have steady income from lots of different clients, when one Press is slow, that's not necessarily the kiss of death for that relationship. I wouldn't give up an otherwise good client for that. I realize the situation i'm describing is different from the one that started this thread; just wanted to add a different perspective on having to wait. But in general, I prefer to take my chances, just print the truth, and let other indexers decide for themselves whether to work with that Press or not. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Indexing an introductory list In-Reply-To: <005d01bf56cc$1919c6a0$26cab7c7@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:51 AM 1/4/00 -0500, Ann Truesdale wrote: > >. . . critiquing the indexes in books I read as a >way to hone my techniques. I have noticed several cases where mentions were >indexed that I would not have included. I'd like some input on the >situation, which follows. > >An introductory paragraph to a chapter or major section of a book lists >items to be discussed in the following sections of that chapter. For >example, "A thingamajing consists of several components: (1) a widgit, (2) a >bauble, (3) a bangle and (4) a bead." Then immediately after that paragraph >are sections on each of those items. > >I have been indexing the sections but *not* the introductory paragraph, >which contains nothing more than a list. I guess you could argue that the >relationship of the topics is pertinent info that should be indexed, but in >the instances I have seen that relationship has been evident anyway. > >What do you think? Should the mentions in that paragraph be indexed? I'll be >interested in your opinions. In such cases I index the main topic of the introductory paragraph (here, the "thingamajing") and not the components listed. Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:26:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? In-Reply-To: <200001042113.QAA06757@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed If memory serves correctly, Maria Coughlin of Editorial Services gave her presentation on teaching indexing to elementary school students at the May 1998 ASI conference in Seattle - and it was a fascinating project and informative presentation. At 04:11 PM 1/4/00 -0500, you wrote: >This type of project probably doesn't happen much around the country. >That's one reason the ASI Board talked about initiating such a project in >local areas. As far as I know, Maria Coughlin and her crew at Editorial >Services in Annapolis are the only ones who've taken on such a project. >That's the same bunch who printed up the bumper sticker you have and are >selling them to provide $$ for educational programs for the Washington, DC >Chapt. of ASI. They did a presentation to the ASI annual conference in >Denver about their program, but we in the DC Chapter haven't all heard about >it. So on February 12... -- well refer to the previous announcement about >our upcoming chapter meeting. > >If you want a bumper sticker or want to come to our meeting, let me know -- >happy indexing, >Deborah > >Deborah Patton >Washington, DC Chapter Chair, 1999-2000 >deborahpatton@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:11:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Slow/no payers In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting paid. In more than 10 years of indexing, I've never had a real problem; the worst has been a six-week wait for a check. While I may just be lucky, and am thankful that's so, I wonder if we aren't blowing this thread out of proportion? --Victoria vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:01:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Slow/no payers In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000104150939.00d2e730@mail.asis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:11 PM 1/4/00 -0800, you wrote: >This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting >paid. In more than 10 years of indexing, I've never had a real problem; the >worst has been a six-week wait for a check. While I may just be lucky, and >am thankful that's so, I wonder if we aren't blowing this thread out of >proportion? Hi All: Well, for those of us who have had to wait for more than 6 weeks for a check, it's a serious issue. Although I've never had to write off a job, I've had situations when I've waited for 60 days for a check. One of my rules in terms of thumb when working for clients is never to let money owed get to be too large. For instance, if I'm on a project and am owed over $1,000, I'll hold off work until the client pays. I don't want the client to assume that I'll work for free. As freelancers, we have a right to decide how to handle situations in cases where a client is late in paying. Willa (who almost wishes that the rain we are getting in Boston were snow, considering the time of year...and wondering if I'll even get a week on snowshoes this winter....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 19:05:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:11:39 -0800 Victoria Baker writes: > This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting > paid. In more than 10 years of indexing, I've never had a real problem; the > worst has been a six-week wait for a check. While I may just be lucky, and > am thankful that's so, I wonder if we aren't blowing this thread out of > proportion? > > --Victoria > vbaker@asis.com Victoria, you have been incredibly lucky. I am still owed money from one client for work I finished in August. It is more common for my clients to be late than on time in their payments. Just about all book packagers tend to pay late. They practically have to. Usually, a packager will pay a freelancer only after they have been paid by their client. Often the big publishers fall behind in their invoices. Big publishers also have the problem of a half-a-dozen employees who have to sign-off before a check is issued. If one of them is on vacation, sick or at an out-of-town business meeting, the invoice or purchase order may just sit on the desk collecting dust. Then there is the problem of the "lost invoice," but that's where this thread began. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:21:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is there any hope for us new indexers? Just last year we were told that out-of-work actors and prisoners were doing indexing, and now kids???? (g) Jean Middleton http://www.indexempire.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:30:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't seen or heard of children being taught how to create an index, but when I was teaching, I made sure my students learned how to *use* an index. I wasn't surprised that no one had ever taught the third and fourth graders this skill, but I was appalled that at least half of my high school students had no idea how to use an index or why it was there. Almost none of those who did know had every had any formal education on the subject; they had simply figured it out, learned it from their parents, or been shown once, in a cursory manner, what to do. I think going into schools and libraries to educate children on how to use an index is an excellent idea. I'm giving serious thought to putting together some sort of program to do in my local school system -- somehow, in my "copious spare time," as my husband ironically calls it. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 18:19:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? In-Reply-To: <200001050143.UAA28554@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kara wrote: >I think going into schools and libraries to educate children on how to use >an index is an excellent idea. I'm giving serious thought to putting >together some sort of program to do in my local school system -- somehow, >in my "copious spare time," as my husband ironically calls it. Well, once upon a time, I was taught how to use library resources and indexes in about third grade. I don't understand why that's changed, but maybe its presence in the curriculum was rare even then (mid 1960s). I do not understand how children can excel academically without those skills, and if it's come down to volunteer/auxiliary teachers providing them, then I think that would be really good work to do. It's making me think maybe a teaching credential really would be a good thing to go get. --Victoria vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:13:51 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a good question. My homeschooling daughter's 12, and I've been planning for a while to do an indexing project with her--thanks for reminding me! I think we're going to redo an abysmally indexed simple children's book. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:59:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonald@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I homeschool my kids, too. Sometimes I obsess about whether or not we're covering enough things or the right things. But I try to remember that it doesn't matter if you don't know everything . . . just so long as you know where to find the info when you need it! Believe it or not, that's one of the things I like about this whole Pokemon craze. My 7 yr old son can go to his strategy guide to read a chart and find out at what level Magikarp evolves into Gyrados--or whatever the burning issue of the day is. I like the idea of involving a child in indexing. I don't know that my son is quite ready, but I'm going to hang onto this idea! Thanks! Bonnie Taylor << This is a good question. My homeschooling daughter's 12, and I've been planning for a while to do an indexing project with her--thanks for reminding me! I think we're going to redo an abysmally indexed simple children's book. Do Mi >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 22:02:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Victoria: I too, cannot believe this has never happened to you. I am the one who started this thread, and I didn't do it out pique or hysteria. I've been indexing for 22 years, and every so often I get stiffed. The one thing I have learned is that the worst thing you can do is to sit around and do nothing, hoping that the check will somehow magically arrive. Since in my case, the delay was with one of the largest publishing companies in the world, I felt it was only natural to poll other freelancers about it, since I am sure a fair number of them have also worked with Wiley. It was also important to let others know that when I did finally make some noise, my problem was solved promptly by my editor. In my case, this time, things ended happily, but I too have been stiffed by bankrupt, fly-by-night companies, and I feel it is a legitimate matter for discussion. Diana Witt Elliot Linzer wrote: > On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 15:11:39 -0800 Victoria Baker > writes: > > This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting > > paid. In more than 10 years of indexing, I've never had a real > problem; the > > worst has been a six-week wait for a check. While I may just be lucky, > and > > am thankful that's so, I wonder if we aren't blowing this thread out > of > > proportion? > > > > --Victoria > > vbaker@asis.com > > Victoria, you have been incredibly lucky. I am still owed money from > one client for work I finished in August. It is more common for my > clients to be late than on time in their payments. Just about all book > packagers tend to pay late. They practically have to. Usually, a > packager will pay a freelancer only after they have been paid by their > client. Often the big publishers fall behind in their invoices. Big > publishers also have the problem of a half-a-dozen employees who have to > sign-off before a check is issued. If one of them is on vacation, sick > or at an out-of-town business meeting, the invoice or purchase order may > just sit on the desk collecting dust. Then there is the problem of the > "lost invoice," but that's where this thread began. > > | Elliot Linzer > | 43-05 Crommelin Street > | Flushing, New York 11355 > | (718) 353-1261 > | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 23:27:51 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Victoria, Ditto. I've never been stiffed (knock on wood, or whatever). But I once got to 75 days out on an invoice of about $1,000, a few years ago, and despaired of ever getting paid. I had to ask my husband to get on the phone and "talk tough" to the packager (I knew I was getting the runaround!), which resulted in the 2 men insulting each other -- and my getting a check right away. Seems like this year has been "it" as far as late payments. I've had more problems than ever before, and I can almost say more clients have been late this year than are paying on time. I've had to repeatedly make inquiries. And from major publishers, too, and professional associations. Right now I am waiting for a check of about $650 from a technical organization that was billed November 22nd. Before that it was a major textbook publisher who paid for work billed September 3rd in mid-November. And on and on. It's getting bad. It has started to happen. Makes me ever so thankful for those clients who pay quickly and with no reminders. They are my treasures. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 00:50:46 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: slow/no payment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elliot Linzer wrote: > John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against slow-paying >clients through our professional societies >> The usual thing would be for Societies such as SI or ASI to publish >> from time to time a list of troublesome clients saying merely that if a >> client is on the list please contact so-and-so before accepting work >> from them. 'So-and-so' being someone in the society who will give >> info confidentially. I am not a lawyer, but I assume that there is little >> risk of litigation from clients so mentioned. >> >> This is an advantage of belonging to a professional Society, if it >> provides such a service. > > This is an interesting proposal. Unfortunately, the indexing societies >will never go along with this or any similar proposal. The American >Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the other indexing >societies are not exclusively for freelancers. The very clients who are >cheap or slow-paying can be members or even officers of our professional >societies. This may be an example of a difference between one side of the Atlantic and the other. In the UK, the Society of Freelance Editors and Proofreaders (set up as a sister-society to SI) has a number of corporate members - mainly publishers. Towards the back of every issue of their newsletter, CopyRight, is a cryptic note followed by a short list of publishers one would do well to discuss with a member of the Committee before taking on work from them. They are mostly outfits I have never heard of. This knowledge might stop the corporates from misbehaving, but if they are going to be members, they are unlikely to transgress in the first place. It would also appear that corporate members occasionally get up the professional noses of freelance members, but more in the matter of not paying National Union of Journalists rates rather than not paying at all. Best wishes Christine Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 06:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: slow pays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good morning all: How many people on the list work with a retainer fee before beginning work with a new client? I tried asking this question a couple of years ago and was surprised at the response of people who thought it wasn't necessary to ask for retainer fees. But this thread is making me wonder about the practicality of using retainer fees automatically when working with clients. Any thoughts? Willa (who is finding small comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one who has dealt with clients who took a long time to pay....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:00:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: slow pays In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000105062454.0096e800@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My only slow payers have been consulting firms and packagers who insisted that their cash flow required them to wait to pay me until they had been paid. Since I knew this in advance I made an adjustment in my rate to compensate for the extended waiting time. (It seemed a reasonable way of balancing their work with the work of my more prompt publishers.) I've had a major benefit to maintaining good contacts with the editor even as I battled with accounting. At one point I had completed several projects and was owed several thousand by a packager. The company apparently was treating free-lancers & employees equally unreasonable so my contact left & formed his own company. The new company paid my outstanding invoices, not out of legal obligation, but because my contact valued my work. It was done with the understanding that if I ever received payment from the original packager that I would reimburse the new one. I never did receive payment from the original company. One point I've always made is to ask at the first contact what the payment schedule is likely to be. As soon as that time has past I make contact to request an update. This usually is all that is required since people discover the invoice buried in the wrong stack of papers, etc. More than once the check has arrived the next day by FedEx. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F. (LNG-LLP)" Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? Victoria wrote: > Well, once upon a time, I was taught how to use library resources and > indexes in about third grade. I don't understand why that's changed, but > maybe its presence in the curriculum was rare even then (mid 1960s). I do > not understand how children can excel academically without those skills, > and if it's come down to volunteer/auxiliary teachers providing them, then > I think that would be really good work to do. It's making me think maybe a > teaching credential really would be a good thing to go get. > I'm finding this discussion really interesting. I was taught on more than one occasion how to use an index-- first in elementary school, then in the sixth grade (when we learned how to do research and write term papers), and later it was reinforced in middle and high school. I graduated from high school in 1983, so we're talking about the mid-70's here. Admittedly, I went to a very good public school system, but I am somewhat surprised that this was unique. I guess I shouldn't be, though: When I got to college (and later, law school) I was frequently surprised at how many of my fellow students didn't know the very basics of how to research, write and document papers longer than three pages. I'd been doing it since I was 11! I agree that this is an issue that as individuals we could and should address. I don't have kids, but my sister teaches in public schools and I am a long-time advocate of them, and I am a strong believer in parental involvement and community support. I would discuss with the teachers and the administrators the possibility of establishing a library skills program that would include instruction on using indexes and see about getting one established in the school system. Believe me, the children will thank you when they get to college and find that they really need those skills! That is NOT the time to have to learn them! -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:28:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: slow/no payment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christine: What an excellent idea. I think perhaps we should try something similar. While we do not have national rate, we certainly have many sad tales of indexers being asked to work for a dollar a page when the national average is three. You may know that we are in the process of doing a salary survey (Sharon Hughes' project). It is hoped that it will give us some sort of benchmark that freelancers can use as a salary guide for projects. It might also be useful as a tool when dealing with editors. Of course a rate guideline does nothing about tardy payments, but even large companies might not like the idea that their names would appear on a deadbeats list. Thanks for contributing to this discussion. Diana Witt Christine Headley wrote: > Elliot Linzer wrote: > > > John Sampson suggests that we take collective action against > slow-paying > >clients through our professional societies > >> The usual thing would be for Societies such as SI or ASI to publish > >> from time to time a list of troublesome clients saying merely that if a > >> client is on the list please contact so-and-so before accepting work > >> from them. 'So-and-so' being someone in the society who will give > >> info confidentially. I am not a lawyer, but I assume that there is little > >> risk of litigation from clients so mentioned. > >> > >> This is an advantage of belonging to a professional Society, if it > >> provides such a service. > > > > This is an interesting proposal. Unfortunately, the indexing > societies > >will never go along with this or any similar proposal. The American > >Society of Indexers, the Society of Indexers (UK) and the other indexing > >societies are not exclusively for freelancers. The very clients who are > >cheap or slow-paying can be members or even officers of our professional > >societies. > > This may be an example of a difference between one side of the Atlantic and > the other. In the UK, the Society of Freelance Editors and Proofreaders > (set up as a sister-society to SI) has a number of corporate members - > mainly publishers. Towards the back of every issue of their newsletter, > CopyRight, is a cryptic note followed by a short list of publishers one > would do well to discuss with a member of the Committee before taking on > work from them. They are mostly outfits I have never heard of. This > knowledge might stop the corporates from misbehaving, but if they are going > to be members, they are unlikely to transgress in the first place. It would > also appear that corporate members occasionally get up the professional > noses of freelance members, but more in the matter of not paying National > Union of Journalists rates rather than not paying at all. > > Best wishes > Christine > > Christine Headley > Copyeditor and Indexer > Stroud, Glos > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:34:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tzolelet@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a school librarian who picked up on the thread mid-stream. Most kids do not know how to use existing indexes effectively and many indexers, I feel (having been on both sides of the fence), do not know how kids use indexes. I tell my students to think like an indexer and give them anecdotes from my own experience to demonstrate the idiosyncratic thought patterns of indexers and catalogers. It is really a good idea to use indexing skills as study skills, particularly with middle school kids, who are learning about classification and hierarchy in subject areas. I find that poor understanding of indexes is the most common reason for fear of research and I have begun to use terms like "locator" and "modifier" and "qualifier" with my students in grades 6-12. Even - or I should say especially - the most scatterbrained kid straightens up and improves performance when given a handle on the mysteries of the index. I will be interested to see where this thread continues. Anne Dykstra Librarian, Professional Performing Arts School New York City tzolelet@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:37:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Personally, I would hesitate to ask for a retainer fee. Given the choice between an indexer who uses a retainer fee, and one who doesn't, which is a publisher likelier to choose? Once you have a good relationship with a client, and they have learned to value your work, they would probably be willing to pay you a retainer -- but if your relationship with them is good, a retainer fee is probably not necessary. I would think that asking for a retainer could be a stumbling block to getting new clients. On the one hand, it can be thought of as professional; on the other, it suggests a lack of trust. So far, my experience with getting paid has been reasonably good. I've gone over 60 days on an invoice, but (occasionally with some nagging) I've always gotten paid. I'd prefer, based on my own experience, to approach a new client relationship with the assumption of mutual trust and professionalism. They trust me to do a good, professional, and on-time job; I trust them to treat me with professionalism and pay on time. Generally, this works. I admit that we are not dependent upon my income to put bread on the table and a roof over our heads. My income, while important, is not our sole income. Perhaps this makes it easier for me to trust that I will eventually get paid; it certainly makes it a little easier to manage financially when payments are late. I would never tell another person, particularly one who is totally dependent upon a freelance income, that s/he shouldn't ask for a retainer fee. But I do think that asking for a retainer might do an indexer as much harm as good. Just my two cents' worth, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:37:50 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Willa: I have only been able to get a retainer on large extensive projects. I think the reason this isn't done more often is that many indexing projects are always rush rush. The editor calls you in a panic and asks if you can complete the project 2 days before yesterday. Then they get the index, send it to the typesetter if they haven't asked you to do that, and the bill sits there. I think retainers work best on large projects with a reasonable deadline. I've only heard myths about reasonable deadlines. I've never actually experienced one. Diana Witt Willa MacAllen wrote: > Good morning all: > > How many people on the list work with a retainer fee before beginning work > with a new client? I tried asking this question a couple of years ago and > was surprised at the response of people who thought it wasn't necessary to > ask for retainer fees. But this thread is making me wonder about the > practicality of using retainer fees automatically when working with clients. > > Any thoughts? > > Willa (who is finding small comfort in knowing that I'm not the only one > who has dealt with clients who took a long time to pay....) > Willa MacAllen > Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research > MacAllen's Information Services > Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 08:41:51 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never done anything formally with this, but my children and all their friends were subjected to discussions and instructions on how to use indexes and databases. With my own children, I often had them help me with small clerical tasks related to my indexing business, so they were well aware of how an index was constructed. I can't imaging doing home schooling as I have neither the time nor the temprament for it, and they are both much smarter than I am, but I certainly took them with me to libraries when they were little. I must say that at 18 and 20, they are seasoned researchers, and seem to do well on papers and use indexes efficiently. Diana Witt "Wright, Sharon F. (LNG-LLP)" wrote: > Victoria wrote: > > > Well, once upon a time, I was taught how to use library resources and > > indexes in about third grade. I don't understand why that's changed, but > > maybe its presence in the curriculum was rare even then (mid 1960s). I do > > not understand how children can excel academically without those skills, > > and if it's come down to volunteer/auxiliary teachers providing them, then > > I think that would be really good work to do. It's making me think maybe a > > teaching credential really would be a good thing to go get. > > > I'm finding this discussion really interesting. I was taught on > more than one occasion how to use an index-- first in elementary school, > then in the sixth grade (when we learned how to do research and write term > papers), and later it was reinforced in middle and high school. I graduated > from high school in 1983, so we're talking about the mid-70's here. > Admittedly, I went to a very good public school system, but I am somewhat > surprised that this was unique. I guess I shouldn't be, though: When I got > to college (and later, law school) I was frequently surprised at how many of > my fellow students didn't know the very basics of how to research, write and > document papers longer than three pages. I'd been doing it since I was 11! > > I agree that this is an issue that as individuals we could and > should address. I don't have kids, but my sister teaches in public schools > and I am a long-time advocate of them, and I am a strong believer in > parental involvement and community support. I would discuss with the > teachers and the administrators the possibility of establishing a library > skills program that would include instruction on using indexes and see about > getting one established in the school system. Believe me, the children will > thank you when they get to college and find that they really need those > skills! That is NOT the time to have to learn them! > > -- Sharon W. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:52:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: retainer fee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Willa, I've never asked for a retainer, nor do I know any indexers who have. It doesn't seem to be a practice that indexers use. What I have done with larger project is to build in interim payment, so that I don't work for months on a project with no income. When doing an annual index for some journals, I asked for half payment in June, with the understanding that I would submit my January through June index for their approval (not for use yet). That worked. The client was happy, I was happy. The next year I worked for them, I dropped that and billed only once, at end of year when work was done. It was only a few thousand dollars total, so.............. For another client for whom I submit biweekly cumulative indexes on a weekly publication, I have my contract arranged for quarterly payments. That works. But again, that isn't the same as a retainer, because I'm submitting work constantly, so they have value (product) for their money. In these tight economic times, I don't know if asking for money "up front" would work, although in some cases it might be nice. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:26:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nathalie Richard Subject: Re: slow pays In-Reply-To: <3873573D.9402DF48@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, On the topic of this slow pay business, I was wondering whether it might be a good idea to stipulate in the contract (does everyone use contracts?) that the fee must be paid withing 30 days of receipt of the index and perhaps also the invoice (for example)? Or is that a no-no? I was thinking that if the client signs such a contract, would they not be obligated by law to pay within that period of time? It seems to me it would certainly be easier to force them to pay within a reasonable time frame... I am in the process of getting my own business off the ground (I'm the image indexer looking to branch out), and I'm now in the process of creating a generic contract, so I will be very curious to see the answers to this post... Nathalie ****************************************** Nathalie Richard Bibliothecaire Universite de Moncton Campus de Shippagan ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:05:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/05/2000 9:34:15 AM Central Standard Time, nrichar2@IS2.DAL.CA writes: << I was wondering whether it might be a good idea to stipulate in the contract (does everyone use contracts?) that the fee must be paid withing 30 days of receipt of the index and perhaps also the invoice (for example)? >> That question might be answered through the new salary survey if enough ASI members reply. I know I only use contracts for large projects or when the editor sends me theirs. Last year I was offered a contract that was full of penalties if I was late with delivery of the index, BUT, when I countered by altering the contract to include penalties for late payment of an acceptable index, the issue had to go to the VP level and a lawyer before they would sign it. - I guess double standards are normal. They signed the contract, I included the clause in the invoice, and I think I got the fastest payment in the history of the Association. I was told to expect payment in 30-45 days and got it in 5. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 10:30:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Beverlee and Doug Subject: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Elaine, When I was a school librarian for K-5 graders, I taught the students parts of a book. I included, of course, an index. By the time they were in 5th grade, they should have known what a back of the book index was for, where it was, and how to use one. We also made books in grades 2 and 3, but since these were fiction, we did not include an index. However, making a non-fiction book with an index would have been a fun project. Time constraints were a big problem in my school library; I am not sure how it works in your son's school. Your son's teacher or school librarian would probably be excited if you offered your expertise by giving a lesson on the process of writing an index. It is a great idea! It is, of course, necessary that children learn how to use indexes, but learning the process of writing one may help them appreciate them even more. Beverlee Day Guided by Words Indexing >Hi all. The subject I've put on this post comes from a bumper >sticker I got in a packet of materials from an indexing workshop I >attended last spring. I liked it so much, I put it on my office door >at work, where, as you can probably imagine, I got lots of very >strange looks. > >Anyway, I was wondering if any of you out there had actually heard of >*kids* being taught at least elementary indexing in school? My >middle schooler had a reading project (the subject is really called >"Reading" BTW) to make a book. There were lots of things to put in >there, most of which was mandated by the assignment. One of the >things was an index to the "book" which had to contain at least 10 >items. I asked my son if he was actually taught how to do this and >he said no (although he may have not been paying attention when she >did go over it). I guess the teacher figured the kids would have to >look up how to do it or copy a style from a book. Thankfully, I was >there, and gave him some pointers of how to start it (I didn't want >to do it *for* him of course). We won't know until around February >what grade he got on the assignment, but I was just curious if anyone >had similar experiences. > >Happy New Year to one and all. > >elaine > >Elaine R. Firestone, ELS >elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 09:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who will? In-Reply-To: <0.617e41a8.25a4b089@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1265028840==_ma============" --============_-1265028840==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, >Here's a school librarian who picked up on the thread mid-stream. >Most kids do not know how to use existing indexes effectively and >many indexers, I feel (having been on both sides of the fence), do >not know how kids use indexes. I think the article "Indexing children's information books" in The Indexer Vol. 21 No. 4 October 1999: p. 174-179 is excellent and speaks to the quality of the indexes found in children's books--perhaps a twine of the main thread. Naomi -- ***************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER Indexing Services P.O. Box 1341 ~ 459 Redway Drive ~ Redway, CA 95560-1341 jnlinzer@saber.net ~ 707/923-4361 ~ Fax: 360/838-5620 ***************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers web site. ****************************************************************************** --============_-1265028840==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: If you won't talk to your kids about indexing, who
Hi,

Here's a school librarian who picked up on the thread mid-stream.
Most kids do not know how to use existing indexes effectively and many indexers, I feel (having been on both sides of the fence), do not know how kids use indexes.


I think the article "Indexing children's information books" in The Indexer Vol. 21 No. 4 October 1999: p. 174-179 is excellent and speaks to the quality of the indexes found in children's books--perhaps a twine of the main thread.

Naomi
--
*****************************************************************************
                J. NAOMI LINZER Indexing Services
        P.O. Box 1341   ~   459 Redway Drive    ~   Redway, CA  95560-1341
                        jnlinzer@saber.net   ~   707/923-4361   ~   Fax: 360/838-5620 *****************************************************************************
http://www.asindexing.org/   <-- American Society of Indexers web site.
******************************************************************************
--============_-1265028840==_ma============-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:59:45 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/4/2000 5:14:03 PM Central Standard Time, vbaker@ASIS.COM writes: << This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting paid. >> Personally, I have only had trouble with one publisher. However, with so very many of us on the list, if even a small percentage of us have had a payment problem, it certainly can seem like a lot of indexers have had trouble getting paid. I mention this only to assure the newbies that they usually will not have payment problems. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:49:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faye Ratcliff Subject: Re: Indexing course resale? Comments: To: smilkie@MICH.COM Shana, I appreciate very much your input on this. Actually, I am about halfway through the book at present. I've already been through the "Handbook of Indexing Techniques." Of course, there is nothing like actually doing it . Thanks, Faye ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faye Ratcliff Subject: Thank you all! Thanks to everyone who responded to my message about the reselling of indexing course material. I appreciate the help very much! Sincerely, Faye Ratcliff Quality Transcription ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:55:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: slow pays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This has been an informative thread. When a similar conversation arose some time back it seems to me that I saw a couple of comments along this line: "Your client is only 60 days past due? That's nothing!" I am encouraged that the prevailing attitude now seems to be that 60 days is a serious delinquency. My own practice is to get in touch with the client at 30 days plus about a week just to be sure the invoice didn't get "lost" in transit. At 60 days I'm a polite terror. My point is that if some indexers are tolerant of 60-day (and longer) receivables it makes it really tough on those of us who aren't. My reading of this thread indicates high intolerance for slow payers. Craig Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 12:03:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF57AF.9BBFD73C" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF57AF.9BBFD73C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I don't think persons new to indexing should be discourage by the idea of "children" learning how to index. That isn't the point: the point is to guarantee educated consumers for our product. As books are shoved through the development and production pipelines faster and faster to feed the relentless appetites of corporate accountants, the need for/use of/appreciation of quality indexing is in question more and more. It's bad enough that I get "youngsters" at the publishing houses whom I have to coach long distance about the basics of publishing itself, but our actual children of today who rely on Web browsers more and more will be at an even greater disadvantage in the future. In the crafts art community, one of the interesting developments was the "graying" of the profession. New blood, new talent, new work was woefully wanting, as was quality. Now, rarely is it worth it, because people shop at Pier 1 and Cost Plus for cheap handmade goods of "earthy" look. Craftspeople of quality work have fewer and fewer mainstream customers willing to pay a fair price for well done work! And regarding slow pays---chalk much of that up to the chaos in publishing caused by merger after merger, and the discharge of so many experienced editorial and production people who knew the business. Many of the freelancers, and probably most of the EDP packagers, are refugees of these "wars," and cash flow is, unfortunately, a major problem as a whole generation rushes to gobble up crumbs from the same feast. We need to encourage respect for our skills as much as possible. The dissemination of information requires care and attention. I am deeply dismayed of seeing so much misinformation published in my kids' textbooks, and I worry about the HMO doctor-babies I visit, who have to carry pocket dictionaries to understand medical terms! And now they all think that if it's on the Web, it's accurate! Let's take care while we can; the ecology of education is as important as that of the environment. Sorry for the lecture. Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning-- one crow after another. [Basho] ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF57AF.9BBFD73C Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays

I don't think persons new = to indexing should be discourage by the idea of "children" = learning how to index.  That isn't the point: the point is to = guarantee educated consumers for our product.  As books are shoved = through the development and production pipelines faster and faster to = feed the relentless appetites of corporate accountants, the need = for/use of/appreciation of quality indexing is in question more and = more.  It's bad enough that I get "youngsters" at the = publishing houses whom I have to coach long distance about the basics = of publishing itself, but our actual children of today who rely on Web = browsers more and more will be at an even greater disadvantage in the = future.

In the crafts art = community, one of the interesting developments was the = "graying" of the profession.  New blood, new talent, new = work was woefully wanting, as was quality.  Now, rarely is it = worth it, because people shop at Pier 1 and Cost Plus for cheap = handmade goods of "earthy" look.  Craftspeople of = quality work have fewer and fewer mainstream customers willing to pay a = fair price for well done work!

And regarding slow = pays---chalk much of that up to the chaos in publishing caused by = merger after merger, and the discharge of so many experienced editorial = and production people who knew the business.  Many of the = freelancers, and probably most of the EDP packagers, are refugees of = these "wars," and cash flow is, unfortunately, a major = problem as a whole generation rushes to gobble up crumbs from the same = feast.  We need to encourage respect for our skills as much as = possible.  The dissemination of information requires care and = attention.  I am deeply dismayed of seeing so much misinformation = published in my kids' textbooks, and I worry about the HMO = doctor-babies I visit, who have to carry pocket dictionaries to = understand medical terms!  And now they all think that if it's on = the Web, it's accurate!

Let's take care while we = can; the ecology of education is as important as that of the = environment.

Sorry for the = lecture. 



Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor

Academic and Administrative Documents

Arizona State University

e-mail:  dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after = another.   [Basho]

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF57AF.9BBFD73C-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Slow/no payers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erin (Micki) Taylor wrote: > However, with so very many of us on the list, if even a small percentage of > us have had a payment problem, it certainly can seem like a lot of indexers > have had trouble getting paid. I mention this only to assure the newbies > that they usually will not have payment problems. It's also true that payment problems will get aired a lot more than payments made on time. No one would post to the list about every invoice they received on time. One might post about an unexpected bonus, or a payment made *extremely* promptly, but otherwise, posts about payments are likely to be either problem-related, or very general ("Most of my clients pay on time.") So one doesn't really get a clear impression regarding the percentage of payments made on time vs. late. I suspect the "late" category is fairly small overall, which doesn't diminish the impact on individual indexers who are dealing with a late-paying company. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:53:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Faye Ratcliff Subject: Re: OT: What's a scopist? Hi, I guess my post raised this question. Before arriving here I probably would have asked, "What is an indexer?" I will admit that the term "scopist" doesn't really describe the profession, though. A scopist uses a software program [C.A.T] and then manually translates the portions that the program does not. They then do the editing, punctuating, formatting, etc. Tapes may or may not be used as a backup, it differs from state to state. I personally don't work for anyone that uses them. The training for scoping includes learning how to read machine shorthand [stenotype]. Hope that helps. Faye Ratcliff Quality Transcription ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 11:14:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: slow pays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:27 AM 1/5/2000 -0500, Willa MacAllen wrote: >How many people on the list work with a retainer fee before beginning work >with a new client? I tried asking this question a couple of years ago and >was surprised at the response of people who thought it wasn't necessary to >ask for retainer fees. But this thread is making me wonder about the >practicality of using retainer fees automatically when working with clients. I have not yet done this. Most of my new clients come recommended from old ones, who pay reasonably promptly. Thus, I feel some assurance that their business associates do, also. But aside from that, it is such an unusual practice in this business (at least, as far as I can tell), that it would probably be almost impossible to get one. I might do that with an author-client...in fact, I think somebody here has mentioned doing this. But that's a kind of a different situation, IMO. You have no business to collect from, just an individual who you probably don't know a thing about (especially his or her finances or honesty). But a regular corporate indexing client would almost certainly laugh me off if I asked for a retainer. Maybe somebody else has had better experience with this. It certainly does seem like a wise move under certain circumstances. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:25:23 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Angela Blair Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I, too, bill for 30 days net, as requested by several publishers. At day 32, I call clients to see if the invoice is lost. Yes, I agree we as indexers must be consistent. Payment should be prompt. I am more tolerant if a client let's me know that the check will be late and when I can expect it. Lateness is not always malicious, but invoices can get lost in the shuffle--the editor thinks it's in accounts payable, accounts payable says that a signature is needed, etc. I am not independently wealthy--I am also working as a library director, but I still look forward to my indexing checks--I do not forget about them, so therefore they never go past 5-6 weeks from the time I submit my invoice. --Angela Washington-Blair, Ph.D. aka "Index Doctor" --drawblair@juno.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Brown [SMTP:lastword@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:55 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: slow pays > > This has been an informative thread. When a similar conversation arose > some time back it seems to me that I saw a couple of comments along this > line: "Your client is only 60 days past due? That's nothing!" I am > encouraged that the prevailing attitude now seems to be that 60 days is a > serious delinquency. > > My own practice is to get in touch with the client at 30 days plus about > a week just to be sure the invoice didn't get "lost" in transit. At 60 > days I'm a polite terror. > > My point is that if some indexers are tolerant of 60-day (and longer) > receivables it makes it really tough on those of us who aren't. My > reading of this thread indicates high intolerance for slow payers. > > Craig > > Craig Brown > The Last Word > Indexing Services > (314) 352-9094 > lastword@mindspring.com > http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:58:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jerry Frobom Subject: Re: Slow/no payers In-Reply-To: <71.71054315.25a4e091@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks, Micki, for the assurance. As a "newbie" just getting back into the field, I was getting concerned about getting payments within a reasonable time frame. I will be very interested in seeing the results of the survey...I am leaning toward using the ASI standard contract as often as possible. I think it will benefit both me as a professional, as well as clients. Comments, anyone? Jerry Frobom Internet--jerryf@unllib.unl.edu (402) 483-7129 On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 EMickiT@AOL.COM wrote: In a message dated 1/4/2000 5:14:03 PM Central Standard Time, vbaker@ASIS.COM writes: << This thread sounds like many indexers have had a lot of trouble getting paid. >> Personally, I have only had trouble with one publisher. However, with so very many of us on the list, if even a small percentage of us have had a payment problem, it certainly can seem like a lot of indexers have had trouble getting paid. I mention this only to assure the newbies that they usually will not have payment problems. Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Durbin-Westby Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hear! Hear! If one thinks of indexing as a *real job,* how many of us = would go to work every week for an employer who didn't give us our first = paycheck until 60-plus days later (and made no promises that it wouldn't = be 90 days)?! Paula Durbin-Westby Craig wrote: >=20 > My point is that if some indexers are tolerant of 60-day (and longer) > receivables it makes it really tough on those of us who aren't. My > reading of this thread indicates high intolerance for slow payers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01C052FB.6761B760" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C052FB.6761B760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow PaysDear Dorothy, Thank you for that wonderful message! I couldn't agree more with your = thoughts and really appreciate you sharing them with all of us. Three = cheers! Best, Sylvia Coates ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dorothy Dirienzi=20 To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 11:03 AM Subject: Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays I don't think persons new to indexing should be discourage by the idea = of "children" learning how to index. That isn't the point: the point is = to guarantee educated consumers for our product. As books are shoved = through the development and production pipelines faster and faster to = feed the relentless appetites of corporate accountants, the need for/use = of/appreciation of quality indexing is in question more and more. It's = bad enough that I get "youngsters" at the publishing houses whom I have = to coach long distance about the basics of publishing itself, but our = actual children of today who rely on Web browsers more and more will be = at an even greater disadvantage in the future. In the crafts art community, one of the interesting developments was = the "graying" of the profession. New blood, new talent, new work was = woefully wanting, as was quality. Now, rarely is it worth it, because = people shop at Pier 1 and Cost Plus for cheap handmade goods of "earthy" = look. Craftspeople of quality work have fewer and fewer mainstream = customers willing to pay a fair price for well done work! And regarding slow pays---chalk much of that up to the chaos in = publishing caused by merger after merger, and the discharge of so many = experienced editorial and production people who knew the business. Many = of the freelancers, and probably most of the EDP packagers, are refugees = of these "wars," and cash flow is, unfortunately, a major problem as a = whole generation rushes to gobble up crumbs from the same feast. We = need to encourage respect for our skills as much as possible. The = dissemination of information requires care and attention. I am deeply = dismayed of seeing so much misinformation published in my kids' = textbooks, and I worry about the HMO doctor-babies I visit, who have to = carry pocket dictionaries to understand medical terms! And now they all = think that if it's on the Web, it's accurate! Let's take care while we can; the ecology of education is as important = as that of the environment.=20 Sorry for the lecture. =20 Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning--=20 one crow=20 after another. [Basho]=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C052FB.6761B760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays
Dear Dorothy,
 
Thank you for that wonderful message! I = couldn't=20 agree more with your thoughts and really appreciate you sharing them = with all of=20 us. Three cheers!
 
Best,
Sylvia Coates
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dorothy Dirienzi
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, = 2000 11:03=20 AM
Subject: Re: If you won't tell = . . And=20 Slow Pays

I don't think persons new to = indexing=20 should be discourage by the idea of "children" learning how to = index. =20 That isn't the point: the point is to guarantee educated consumers for = our=20 product.  As books are shoved through the development and = production=20 pipelines faster and faster to feed the relentless appetites of = corporate=20 accountants, the need for/use of/appreciation of quality indexing is = in=20 question more and more.  It's bad enough that I get "youngsters" = at the=20 publishing houses whom I have to coach long distance about the basics = of=20 publishing itself, but our actual children of today who rely on Web = browsers=20 more and more will be at an even greater disadvantage in the=20 future.

In the crafts art community, = one of the=20 interesting developments was the "graying" of the profession.  = New blood,=20 new talent, new work was woefully wanting, as was quality.  Now, = rarely=20 is it worth it, because people shop at Pier 1 and Cost Plus for cheap = handmade=20 goods of "earthy" look.  Craftspeople of quality work have fewer = and=20 fewer mainstream customers willing to pay a fair price for well done=20 work!

And regarding slow = pays---chalk much of=20 that up to the chaos in publishing caused by merger after merger, and = the=20 discharge of so many experienced editorial and production people who = knew the=20 business.  Many of the freelancers, and probably most of the EDP=20 packagers, are refugees of these "wars," and cash flow is, = unfortunately, a=20 major problem as a whole generation rushes to gobble up crumbs from = the same=20 feast.  We need to encourage respect for our skills as much as=20 possible.  The dissemination of information requires care and=20 attention.  I am deeply dismayed of seeing so much misinformation = published in my kids' textbooks, and I worry about the HMO = doctor-babies I=20 visit, who have to carry pocket dictionaries to understand medical=20 terms!  And now they all think that if it's on the Web, it's=20 accurate!

Let's take care while we can; = the ecology=20 of education is as important as that of the environment.

Sorry for the lecture. =20



Dorothy DiRienzi,=20 Associate Editor

Academic and=20 Administrative Documents

Arizona State=20 University

e-mail: =20 dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after another.   [Basho]=20

------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C052FB.6761B760-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:23:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: contracts, etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, and others leaning toward use of contract -- I wholeheartedly support professionalism in our industry, and that includes using a contract and "getting it in writing". As freelancers, we need to take advantage of every possible legal protection. Those who know me know that I am very business-like in my approach. However, be aware of some possible pitfalls of using a contract. If it is for a small project, ie, one book, it will more than likely create problems for your editor. He/she is probably not empowered to sign any contracts, and that will mean kicking it upstairs to his/her boss, and possibly to the legal department for review. Industry practice is that most companies are not geared to using contracts with freelancers for "small" jobs, and it will create a hassle. This, in turn, may make you less likely to be used as a freelancer. It may pay to try for alternatives. You could write a letter confirming the phone conversation (or email) you had where you agreed to the job and terms. It will be unsigned by the client, so less protection. But nonetheless, it puts something in writing. It is businesslike, spelling things out, without requiring the client's signature -- a blessing (no legal review on their part, as above), and a curse (less enforceable if there is a problem). Sometimes I have generated such a letter (one page) and put a signature block for both me and client at the bottom, asking the client to signify acceptance of these terms by signing and returning one copy. Ditto legal review, but it is less imposing than a contract, and might squeak through at the editor's or his/her bosses' level. Alternatively, ask if they will generate an agreement for you to sign, or a Work for Hire Letter. That will be their paperwork, spelling out terms, and signing rights over to them. Be careful of the language in that document -- it may be to their advantage. Most are fairly straightforward and neutral, and at least they get the basic down in writing. It is sometimes easier to get this from the client than to have them sign *your* contract. I'm not saying not to use a contract. I'm saying that for small jobs, the industry norm is to work on a handshake. Many indexers work this way most of the time, especially when it is a repeat client or a big publishing house. And many publishers and packagers generate a letter with terms as a cover letter for the project when it is sent out to you. What I am saying is that contracts from you to the client need to go through hoops at the publisher's end, and create problems for your editor. They should be used sparingly, and perhaps best saved for very large projects. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:40:08 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: name index revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/04/2000 5:21:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, indexer@EXECPC.COM writes: << Only personal names should appear in the index, not names of organizations or anything else that's not a person. >> Unless, of course, it's an Author Index or Citation Index, wherein it's conceivable that a corporate author (an organization) would have been cited. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 07:56:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Slow/no payers In-Reply-To: <0.c0363284.25a42247@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I regularly have a problem getting paid. There have been many times when I have begun a regular weekly call-in, and right now am going through it on the project I mentioned before. Yesterday I sent my weekly email and told him no money, no work. And, I got no answer. I am getting extremely good at it due to having to do it so much. Maybe I ought to start an Indexers' Collections Company. If anyone is actually interested in having me do their collections for them, let me know. My record wait for payment is 7 months, and of my 10 or so regular clients, only 4 or 5 pay promptly without me having to poke at them. The whole payment thing is the one thing I dislike about freelancing. Admittedly I work at indexing only part time, and if I had a better cash flow going it wouldn't be such a problem, but I'm not planning to increase my work load any time soon (though I do have an opening in my schedule right now if anyone has anything they want to refer to me). Now, can anyone tell me how I'm going to pay taxes when I didn't set any money aside this year? I was shocked to find that I made more than twice what I've ever made in the past, and between freelance and my job I jumped into a new tax bracket for the first time in my life. I know I should have been setting aside a third of every payment, and I probably will get slapped for not paying estimated taxes but I never have had to before so I didn't think of it. Anyone have any creative financing ideas? I will be getting a $2K raise at work. I suspect it will go straight to the IRS on my Sched C. I know I can pay it out but that will then include penalties. Bit of the barn door situation, I know, but if anyone has any ideas, lemme hear em. Rae >Victoria, > >Ditto. I've never been stiffed (knock on wood, or whatever). But I once got >to 75 days out on an invoice of about $1,000, a few years ago, and despaired >of ever getting paid. I had to ask my husband to get on the phone and "talk >tough" to the packager (I knew I was getting the runaround!), which resulted >in the 2 men insulting each other -- and my getting a check right away. > >Seems like this year has been "it" as far as late payments. I've had more >problems than ever before, and I can almost say more clients have been late >this year than are paying on time. I've had to repeatedly make inquiries. >And from major publishers, too, and professional associations. Right now I >am waiting for a check of about $650 from a technical organization that was >billed November 22nd. Before that it was a major textbook publisher who paid >for work billed September 3rd in mid-November. And on and on. It's getting >bad. It has started to happen. > >Makes me ever so thankful for those clients who pay quickly and with no >reminders. They are my treasures. > >Janet Perlman >SOUTHWEST INDEXING Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: slow pays In-Reply-To: <115E339DD36AD3118EF700805F7D132501B680@mail.pqc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I used to put payable 30 days net, but now I put Payable on delivery on the invoice, and then wait 30 days, then check once, then begin my weekly call ins. I don't use retainers but if I'm wary or been warned, I request a deposit from 30 to 50 percent depending. If I work again for a slow payer I insist on a deposit. I do put a line in about finance charges will be paid on accounts past 30 days, and clients have signed that, but so far, no one who's paid late has ever paid finance charges even when billed for them. It makes me mad, but it's usually only a few bucks and not worth arguing over. I no longer feel I have to work for a slow payer. I've got enough of a business going, with plenty of repeat clients, that I don't have to put up with any ca-ca. So I don't. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:32:31 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Organization: Prodigy Internet Subject: Need CW: Writer's Digest ad for indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all: My son gave me an unusual gift for my December birthday: 2 months of advertising for my indexing business in Writer's Digest. I know that most indexers do not advertise in this way, but if any of you have had experience or suggestions, I would certainly appreciate it. I have not attempted to write the ad yet. My son is a writer and has had some success in advertising his work there, but indexing is different. You can respond to the group or to me. Thanks, Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services jean@indexempire.com http://www.indexempire.com 909-697-2819 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:49:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: Slow/no payers Comments: To: Rachel Rice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 7:56 AM -0500 1/5/00, Rachel Rice wrote: .... >Now, can anyone tell me how I'm going to pay taxes when I didn't set any >money aside this year? I was shocked to find that I made more than twice >what I've ever made in the past, and between freelance and my job I jumped >into a new tax bracket for the first time in my life. I know I should have >been setting aside a third of every payment, and I probably will get >slapped for not paying estimated taxes but I never have had to before so I >didn't think of it. Anyone have any creative financing ideas? I will be >getting a $2K raise at work. I suspect it will go straight to the IRS on my >Sched C. I know I can pay it out but that will then include penalties. Bit >of the barn door situation, I know, but if anyone has any ideas, lemme hear Rachel, I don't know the details, and this ain't tax advice, but you don't necessarily owe a penalty for underpayment. The rules are set up to make allowances for a large increase in income in a given year. Check with your tax adviser and/or read the instructions for last year's 1040 for more info. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:19:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsie Conroy wrote: > I might do that with an author-client...in fact, I think somebody here has > mentioned doing this. But that's a kind of a different situation, IMO. You > have no business to collect from, just an individual who you probably don't > know a thing about (especially his or her finances or honesty). Funny this should come up right now...I was just asked, last week, if I would like an "advance" by an author with whom I'm working! I was very, very pleasantly surprised, but turned down the offer. I didn't feel quite comfortable accepting, but it certainly was nice that she offered. Marcy Brown Wordsmith Services Delmont PA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: [ASI-L] unknown first names In-Reply-To: <20000102.153352.-67377.0.indexer@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the first name is likely to be readily known from general reference= books, I take a few minutes to look it up and add it to the index entry.= Otherwise, I ask the editor or author. They usually have the name= available. As last resort, I've occasionally used an entry like "Smith,= Mrs." or "Jones, Dr."--anything to give a clue and avoid the blank line.= Actually, I never had had to use the blank line. Jeanne Moody *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 1/2/00 at 3:33 PM Shirley K Warkentin wrote: >From: Shirley K Warkentin > >I am enjoying digging into the back issues of ASI's Keywords. The >March/April 1989 issue (page 9) suggests that the indexing convention for >surnames without known given names is > >Adams, ______ 50 > >Do current indexers still follow this convention? > > >Shirley Warkentin >Cornerstone Indexing >559-322-2145; indexer@juno.com >http://homestead.juno.com/indexer >"Building A Better Book" > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Independent contractors: Find your next project gig through JobSwarm! > You can even make money by referring friends. >Click Here > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:53:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: slow pays In-Reply-To: <3873D17D.39C882D0@westol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marcy wrote: >Funny this should come up right now...I was just asked, last week, if I would >like an "advance" by an author with whom I'm working! I was very, very >pleasantly >surprised, but turned down the offer. I didn't feel quite comfortable >accepting, >but it certainly was nice that she offered. It's certainly up to you to decide but one of my longstanding clients pays me in stages on big projects. It makes up for the fact that their deadlines change constantly. There's nothing wrong with taking money upfront, in fact in a previous round on the subject some indexers stated that they ask author clients (as opposed to publishers) for 1/2 the fee upfront. Prosperity consciousness: don't turn down money when offered. I recently got exposed to this thought and after some resistance have realized it makes a lot of sense. --Victoria vbaker@asis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 17:00:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Slow/no payers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:56 AM 1/5/2000 -0500, Rachel Rice wrote: > Maybe I ought to start an Indexers' >Collections Company. If anyone is actually interested in having me do their >collections for them, let me know. My record wait for payment is 7 months, >and of my 10 or so regular clients, only 4 or 5 pay promptly without me >having to poke at them. Kidding aside, Rachel, this is a great idea! Having another, uninvolved, person call up and politely ask for (or demand) payment might actually be more imposing than the same-old, same-old phone call from the indexer. My husband has offered to do this for me the few times I've run into real problems, but I've never taken him up on it. I really like the idea, though! Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:34:59 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GSCHAAR1@AOL.COM Subject: sign-up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sign-up new member Peggy Gschaar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:48:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Michaud Subject: OT: an addition in the family In-Reply-To: <20000104190059.50040.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had thought I posted this several weeks ago, but I'm now informed that it never appeared on the list. I wanted to let my friends in the Massachusetts chapter and elsewhere know that I had a baby girl on Wednesday, Nov. 24th, 1999. Her name is Jillian Laura, and we are both doing very well. I'm on a temporary hiatus from indexing, but I do hope to make it to the spring meeting. Christine Michaud Michaud Editorial Services cmichaud@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 07:19:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: coming out of hiding In-Reply-To: <200001050503.AAA27286@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I did start marketing myself before I'd finished the course. I didn't say anything at all about the course, but neither did I pretend to be anything other than a brand-new indexer. If you are concerned about whether you are yet capable of producing a professional-quality index, I highly recommend that you do at least 2 practice indexes and find an experienced indexer to critique them for you. Even if you have to pay a consulting fee (experienced indexers have to eat, too). That should give you a good idea of whether you're ready to hang out your shingle. If it makes you feel any better, we've all been there and experienced the self-doubt. Your confidence will start building as you start tackling those indexes (even the practice ones) and seeing some good results. Good luck! Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:28:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: coming out of hiding In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >If you are concerned about whether you are yet capable of producing a >professional-quality index, I highly recommend that you do at least 2 >practice indexes and find an experienced indexer to critique them for you. >Even if you have to pay a consulting fee (experienced indexers have to eat, >too). That should give you a good idea of whether you're ready to hang out >your shingle. If it makes you feel any better, we've all been there and >experienced the self-doubt. Your confidence will start building as you >start tackling those indexes (even the practice ones) and seeing some good >results. Good luck! > >Cheers, Hi All: Paying attention to threads on this list is also a wonderful training tool. It always amazes me how timely questions are on this list. And if you can't use the information that is being discussed today, you will sometime in the future. Willa (who is looking forward to a contra dance this evening after working on deadlines for two weeks....and wondering if I'll be able to stay awake for the dance....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:30:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dorothy Dirienzi wrote: "I don't think persons new to indexing should be discourage by the idea = of "children" learning how to index. That isn't the point: the point is = to guarantee educated consumers for our product." _________ Well Dorothy, although that is a good point (guaranteeing educated consumers for our product), it wasn't *the* point of my post. It was more along the lines of: are kids getting an education on how an index is put together? More importantly though, is whether kids are getting educated on how to actually *use* indexes to get information, as well as other library-type skills. If my son is any indication, I would say not. Although he's great at getting information from the Web (I believe you brought up something about kids getting information from web browsers), he didn't realize he could have gotten the same information in 5 minutes by calling the reference librarian at the local library. My standard retort to him when he tells me "It *has* to be from the Web", is "Well then what do students in your class do if they don't have a computer and/or web access at home?" He usually backs down after this and admits that it really doesn't *have* to be from the Web... that's just his preferred method of garnering the information. As far as the quality of indexes in kids' textbooks, I can tell you that it's pretty bad from what I've seen. No wonder he prefers using the Web! He has a geography text with an index that I feel is very poorly put together. (I'm not out to criticize the indexer... she or he may not have had much say in the structure, or the original terrific index could have been cut down by someone not in-the-know about how to do this, etc.) The drawback of it is yes, it uses the terms in the textbook, but those aren't necessarily the terms a child would use to look up something. As an example, where it might talk about rock formations of igneous rock in Idaho (I'm making this up), the index with have Igneous rock: in Idaho rock formations It won't, however, have a reference like Rock formations: igneous rock in Idaho A kid would more likely look up something like the second one, not the first, but there won't be anything under "Rock formations" in the index. I know I've gotten wa-a-a-ay off the original topic here, but as you can probably see, this is a subject very near and dear to my heart. If kids are expected to use indexes to get information, at least have indexes that are useful to them. Rant mode off. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: collections company In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.20000106010047.0137fc10@slonet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I will seriously consider going into business as a collections company if there's an interest. I did collections for a newspaper on Martha's Vineyard and in one 3 month period got nearly 23 thousand bucks worth of past due money. I really am pretty good at it. If you're interested, contact me off-list, and if I get enough responses I'll learn all the ins and outs and see what happens. I agree with Sonsie that having a third party call who's objective and calm can sound more intimidating. Anyway, let me know if you're interested. Rachel Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 10:22:35 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: If you won't tell . . And Slow Pays In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:30 AM -0500 1/6/00, Elaine R. Firestone wrote concerning her son: >...Although he's great at getting information from the >Web (I believe you brought up something about kids getting >information from web browsers), he didn't realize he could have >gotten the same information in 5 minutes by calling the reference >librarian at the local library. My standard retort to him when he >tells me "It *has* to be from the Web", is "Well then what do >students in your class do if they don't have a computer and/or web >access at home?" He usually backs down after this and admits that it >really doesn't *have* to be from the Web... that's just his preferred >method of garnering the information. > ... My son also prefers to search for information on the web, but it is not very productive for him. If you search for typical middle school geography topics or science topics, you get about 99.9% irrelevant hits. Unfortunately, by the time he has checked a few dozen of these, 45 minutes have passed and he has forgotten what the original task was! It may be interesting and educational in one sense, but it is very inefficient at getting a task accomplished in a small amount of time, i.e. for homework. More and more, I steer him to the World Book over in the corner. That was the best $500 we ever spent on his education. He needs another level of learning about doing research: what topics are best researched on the web (e.g. anything about computers, sports, entertainment, or current events), and what topics are best found in printed references (things that haven't changed in 25 years, e.g. the geology of Idaho and how to measure viscosity). He is learning this (I hope) through experience. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:09:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julia Marshall Subject: slow pays In-Reply-To: <200001060504.AAA09294@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Thought I'd put my two cents into this discussion. Last fall I had a terrible time collecting from a major publisher who had been one of my best clients. What happened was that this publisher had been bought out and everyone on the production staff of the old company had been let go, including the production editor that I had worked on for the book that I needed to get paid for. It was the same situation that a lot of you had described of calling and e-mailing but no response. I persisted though and called some other contacts in the company and finally got paid. I'm not going to count this client out. I'll be sending my resume to the new people. I'm not sure what I could've done differently in this case. On a related note, my invoice says that I must receive payment within 30 days. If I don't receive payment, I tack on a %15 surcharge to the total fee. I've never collected this fee, even from the client mentioned above although I wish I had. I figure that that %15 surcharge pays for the time that I spend calling, e-mailing and sending letters. I wish now that I had stuck to my guns with the abovementioned client and said that I wanted that %15 fee because of all the time that I did spend trying to collect. But by the time they were resolving the issue, I was just relieved to get paid. Does anyone else tack on surcharges? I'm curious. Regards, Julia Marshall Marshall Indexing Services Silver Spring, MD, 20910 301-585-8757 Regards, Julia Marshall Marshall Indexing Services 301-585-8757 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:32:04 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avril Ehrlich Subject: Unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF586B.F29EC6A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF586B.F29EC6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please sign off Avril Ehrlich (a.ehrlich@tesco.net) ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF586B.F29EC6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please sign off Avril Ehrlich=20 (a.ehrlich@tesco.net)
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BF586B.F29EC6A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:42:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: How to unsubscribe, do the digest etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone out there tell me how to reduce the numbers of mails I get to the digest format for this group? I am having a difficult time dealing with all the inbox clutter. Also, how does one unsubscribe? (Not that I want to, but I thought I'd save the info.) -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit my domain http://www.seekaye.com or the World of Whislbabe in Geocities, SoHo/Square/4033 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 13:42:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM Subject: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For you "embedders" out there: I'm editing and indexing a book (about 400-500 pages, with many charts, graphs, and tables) that the author and publisher plan to update every 12-18 months or so. Thus the index seems to me a good candidate for embedded indexing. I've been reading this list's threads on embedded indexing for a while, but this will be my first attempt to produce one. The publisher will provide me with whatever software I feel is necessary for the job. My question: should I attempt the embedded index with Microsoft Word, a program with which I am familiar (though not with the embedded indexing feature), or should I purchase FrameMaker? If the latter, how difficult is it to learn FrameMaker (in your opinion), and does it work well (as well as Word) for the word-processing function? Thanks for any help or advice. Teddy D. Teddy Diggs DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES dtdiggs@aol.com phone: 501-771-1727 fax: 501-771-1731 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:46:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: OT--Research on the Web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM >My son also prefers to search for information on the web, but it is >not very productive for him. If you search for typical middle school >geography topics or science topics, you get about 99.9% irrelevant >hits. Maybe your son needs to learn more effective search techniques or use different search engines. >He needs another level of learning about doing research: what topics >are best researched on the web (e.g. anything about computers, >sports, entertainment, or current events), and what topics are best >found in printed references (things that haven't changed in 25 years, >e.g. the geology of Idaho and how to measure viscosity). Here are some of the topics my middle- and high-school kids have effectively researched on the Web recently: blastomycosis, the 13-lined ground squirrel, Korean history and culture, tourism in the Bahamas, transportation in the early 1900s. We have a print encyclopedia and three CD-ROM encyclopedias, and both the kids and I think the Web is a better resource. Carol Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Durbin-Westby Subject: Re: slow pays MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like Julia's idea of tacking on surcharges and then making an effort = to collect the surcharge when the payment is late. If I could do it by = email instead of spending the surcharge fee on a long-distance call, = that would be great. Wonder if it would work? =20 I think I'd have to pick a day when I was in a fairly assertive mood. = Nice people on the phone always have a way of making me feel sorry for = them and backing down. On the other hand, I had the *sweetest* author = once who ended up not paying me for 5 months! I finally turned into the = Incredible Hulk ("you don't want to make me ANGRY!") and started calling = her every other day at home. I didn't scream or yell, I just annoyed = her. I got the check about a week later. Maybe Rachel's collection service could be of value to those of us who = just want to write indexes. I'm tempted to try it if my client's cash = flow schedule slips even more.=20 Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:18:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, Teddy. What software was used to create the file? That will be the defining factor. If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert it back to Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. As much as I hate Word, I have to say it's indexing features aren't bad, although somewhat limited (you can do only one sublevel of entries). My main recommendation is to stick with whatever software the file was created and will be maintained in. Hope that helps. Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM [mailto:DTDIGGS@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:43 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Embedded indexing question For you "embedders" out there: I'm editing and indexing a book (about 400-500 pages, with many charts, graphs, and tables) that the author and publisher plan to update every 12-18 months or so. Thus the index seems to me a good candidate for embedded indexing. I've been reading this list's threads on embedded indexing for a while, but this will be my first attempt to produce one. The publisher will provide me with whatever software I feel is necessary for the job. My question: should I attempt the embedded index with Microsoft Word, a program with which I am familiar (though not with the embedded indexing feature), or should I purchase FrameMaker? If the latter, how difficult is it to learn FrameMaker (in your opinion), and does it work well (as well as Word) for the word-processing function? Thanks for any help or advice. Teddy D. Teddy Diggs DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES dtdiggs@aol.com phone: 501-771-1727 fax: 501-771-1731 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:27:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question In-Reply-To: <91.91c090cc.25a63c2c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What are they going to be using to lay the book out in? If they are going to flow Word files into Frame for final production, do your indexing in Frame. Otherwise, you would have to tweak the Frame index codes anyway to get page ranges and cross references to work right. Frame is not the easiest thing on earth to learn. But with the add-on called IXGen, you can do an index in it without too much pain. I probably would still write my index in Cindex, sort by page order, and then embed the codes into Frame, rather than try to write it in Frame and edit it in Frame. Frame costs a bunch - that is one downside. But if the final book is in Frame, and the upcoming changes to the book would be done in the frame files, it's the best choice. I can't imagine that they would do the changes in Word and then reflow it into Frame - that's a lot of rework for them. Jan Wright At 01:42 PM 01/06/2000 -0500, you wrote: >For you "embedders" out there: > >I'm editing and indexing a book (about 400-500 pages, with many charts, >graphs, and tables) that the author and publisher plan to update every 12-18 >months or so. Thus the index seems to me a good candidate for embedded >indexing. I've been reading this list's threads on embedded indexing for a >while, but this will be my first attempt to produce one. The publisher will >provide me with whatever software I feel is necessary for the job. My >question: should I attempt the embedded index with Microsoft Word, a program >with which I am familiar (though not with the embedded indexing feature), or >should I purchase FrameMaker? If the latter, how difficult is it to learn >FrameMaker (in your opinion), and does it work well (as well as Word) for the >word-processing function? Thanks for any help or advice. Teddy > >D. Teddy Diggs >DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES >dtdiggs@aol.com >phone: 501-771-1727 >fax: 501-771-1731 =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 11:30:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Berman Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, This is my first-ever posting to the group. I am a technical writer who indexes her own books. I have used both MS Word and FrameMaker for indexing. My preference is FrameMaker for the following reasons: 1. Complex page numbers (eg. page 2.15) are automatically generated. I don't know if Word does that now or not. It used to be a nightmare. 2. An index is *easy* to edit in FrameMaker. Very easy. 3. An index is *easy* to generate in FrameMaker. Very easy. 4. The Find/Replace feature in FrameMaker makes it easy to find those rare markers that have "gone astray", such as empty markers. 5. Page ranges, See and See also entries are very easy to create. 6. You can designate where See and See also references go in the sub-entry list (first or last or simply alphabetical) 7. You have a fair amount of control over how the index is generated using the Reference Page feature in FrameMaker. Reference pages aren't the easiest thing to learn quickly, but they are very powerful. I'll probably think of a dozen more reasons after I send this. The downside to FrameMaker is that it is expensive and you'll need a little time to learn the ins-and-outs. I've used it for years and love it, as you might be able to tell. If you'll need to convert the current manuscript to FrameMaker and no one knows it just for the indexing flexibility, though, it may not be a worthwhile undertaking, especially if time is short. Have you checked with the publisher and author? Cynthia Berman Senior Technical Writer eBusiness Applications Siebel Systems, Inc Emeryville, CA 510.594.6141 cberman@siebel.com -----Original Message----- From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM [mailto:DTDIGGS@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:43 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Embedded indexing question For you "embedders" out there: I'm editing and indexing a book (about 400-500 pages, with many charts, graphs, and tables) that the author and publisher plan to update every 12-18 months or so. Thus the index seems to me a good candidate for embedded indexing. I've been reading this list's threads on embedded indexing for a while, but this will be my first attempt to produce one. The publisher will provide me with whatever software I feel is necessary for the job. My question: should I attempt the embedded index with Microsoft Word, a program with which I am familiar (though not with the embedded indexing feature), or should I purchase FrameMaker? If the latter, how difficult is it to learn FrameMaker (in your opinion), and does it work well (as well as Word) for the word-processing function? Thanks for any help or advice. Teddy D. Teddy Diggs DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES dtdiggs@aol.com phone: 501-771-1727 fax: 501-771-1731 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:42:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question In-Reply-To: <200001061915.OAA04089@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > What software was used to create the file? That will be the > defining factor. > If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert > it back to > Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. > > As much as I hate Word, I have to say it's indexing features aren't bad, > although somewhat limited (you can do only one sublevel of > entries). My main > recommendation is to stick with whatever software the file was created and > will be maintained in. Learning Framemakeris a major undertaking and I wouldn't advise doing it for one job. If the document in question is in Word, better to look at recent developments in Cindex and SKYindex for interacting with Word files. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:33:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael J. Patten" Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The word processor in Star Office also has an "Indexing" feature, although it may not be any better than Microshaft Word. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:47:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael J. Patten" Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe, do the digest etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice web site. More clutter. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:26:43 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jon Subject: Re: Need CW: Writer's Digest ad for indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We advertised once in a publishing newsletter in Australia, and got one new client from it. As he is a repeat client with interesting work I am really glad we did it. Can't remember the ad, but it was very simple and straightforward, with our web address for more details. Glenda. My son gave me an unusual gift for my December birthday: 2 months of advertising for my indexing business in Writer's Digest. I know that most indexers do not advertise in this way, but if any of you have had experience or suggestions, I would certainly appreciate it. I have not attempted to write the ad yet. My son is a writer and has had some success in advertising his work there, but indexing is different. You can respond to the group or to me. Thanks, Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services jean@indexempire.com http://www.indexempire.com 909-697-2819 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 07:26:47 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jon Subject: Re: OT: What's a scopist? In-Reply-To: <200001051856.NAA02789@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As an indexer, doing a job I hadn't heard of the year before I started doing it, I am always interested in other jobs. Recently in a taxi after an indexing course I tried to explain to the driver what I did. He said the oddest jobs he had heard of was a couple who went around the state helping schools with their timetables (seems to me this would be a job with two months work and ten months holiday each year) and a guy who was a pooper-scooper - he went to parks and houses collecting dog poo! I have read an interview with a crossword puzzle writer who said hers was the sort of job that careers advisors never mention - just like indexing. Glenda. > I guess my post raised this question. Before arriving here I probably > would have asked, "What is an indexer?" I will admit that the term > "scopist" doesn't really describe the profession, though. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 12:52:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: To J. Clendenen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sorry folks but I can't get a message to go through to Joanne so I'm using this to let her know that-- Joanne, please check the ASI-L site for an update. Thanks. -- ***************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER Indexing Services P.O. Box 1341 ~ 459 Redway Drive ~ Redway, CA 95560-1341 jnlinzer@saber.net ~ 707/923-4361 ~ Fax: 360/838-5620 ***************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers web site. ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:32:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Job op - scholarly book - rush job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO ME OR THE LIST!! Here's a job opportunity for someone who is available to index a book on "Developing a Comprehensive Faculty Evaluation System." Here's the info that I have: ms is about 200-222 indexable pages; can be done in dedicated indexing software (as opposed to Word or Quark); index needed "next week sometime"; ms is 8.5 x 11" 11 pt, with some graphs and figures; the audience is college faculty and administration. Author is ready to send ms to indexer via overnight courier tonight. Please contact the author directly: Raoul Arreola (on faculty at U of TN at Memphis) (901) 448-6123 (work) (901) 758-0762 (home) raarreola@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, you can do more than two levels of headings, but you have to "code" them yourself. That is, Word only asks you in the dialog box for two levels. But in the lower level field, you can add more levels separating them with semicolons, I think. I've seen it done but haven't done it myself. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question > Hi, Teddy. > > What software was used to create the file? That will be the defining factor. > If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert it back to > Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. > > As much as I hate Word, I have to say it's indexing features aren't bad, > although somewhat limited (you can do only one sublevel of entries). My main > recommendation is to stick with whatever software the file was created and > will be maintained in. > > Hope that helps. > > Karen Field > Sr. Technical Writer > Stellcom, Inc. > kfield@stellcom.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: DTDIGGS@AOL.COM [mailto:DTDIGGS@AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 10:43 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Embedded indexing question > > > For you "embedders" out there: > > I'm editing and indexing a book (about 400-500 pages, with many charts, > graphs, and tables) that the author and publisher plan to update every 12-18 > months or so. Thus the index seems to me a good candidate for embedded > indexing. I've been reading this list's threads on embedded indexing for a > while, but this will be my first attempt to produce one. The publisher will > provide me with whatever software I feel is necessary for the job. My > question: should I attempt the embedded index with Microsoft Word, a program > with which I am familiar (though not with the embedded indexing feature), or > should I purchase FrameMaker? If the latter, how difficult is it to learn > FrameMaker (in your opinion), and does it work well (as well as Word) for > the > word-processing function? Thanks for any help or advice. Teddy > > D. Teddy Diggs > DIGGS EDITORIAL SERVICES > dtdiggs@aol.com > phone: 501-771-1727 > fax: 501-771-1731 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:36:54 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts In-Reply-To: <200001060504.AAA09294@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On the topic of this slow pay business, I was wondering whether it might >be a good idea to stipulate in the contract (does everyone use contracts?) >that the fee must be paid withing 30 days of receipt of the index and >perhaps also the invoice (for example)? Or is that a no-no? I was >thinking that if the client signs such a contract, would they not be >obligated by law to pay within that period of time? It seems to me it >would certainly be easier to force them to pay within a reasonable time >frame... I use a contract only when I'm being paid by the author (rather than the Press) or working with a Press for the first time. With my established editors, I don't use one. In those contracts, I do stipulate that payment is due within 30 days. Enforcing that is another matter entirely. You can point out to a client that he or she is past the 30 days, but there's no guarantee you'll receive payment. All the stipulation in the contract does is give you a stronger case if you sue. I do included the "30-day" blurb on all my invoices, but I have no way of knowing whether that has any effect. OTOH, I don't seem to have a lot of slow-paying clients, so this is less of an issue for me than for some of the other folks who are posting. In particular, very few of my clients are book packagers (but the few I've had have paid on time). >I, too, bill for 30 days net, as requested by several publishers. At day 32, >I call clients to see if the invoice is lost. Yes, I agree we as indexers >must be consistent. Payment should be prompt. I have a small reminder program on my computer that I use for this purpose. Every time I send out an invoice, I instruct the computer to ask me in 32 days whether the check has arrived. If it hasn't, I send a reminder to the editor along the lines of, "I haven't yet received payment for X. Would you mind checking to see whether my invoice has fallen through the cracks?" >Sometimes I have generated such a letter (one page) and put a signature block >for both me and client at the bottom, asking the client to signify acceptance >of these terms by signing and returning one copy. Ditto legal review, but it >is less imposing than a contract, and might squeak through at the editor's or >his/her bosses' level. > >Alternatively, ask if they will generate an agreement for you to sign, or a >Work for Hire Letter. That will be their paperwork, spelling out terms, and >signing rights over to them. Be careful of the language in that document -- >it may be to their advantage. Most are fairly straightforward and neutral, >and at least they get the basic down in writing. It is sometimes easier to >get this from the client than to have them sign *your* contract. When I do use a contract, it's of the "confirmation with signature block" type that Janet describes above. Some of my clients use their own contract, I think mostly to establish that I'm an independent contractor. Be aware that you can change the language of those if there's a clause or whatever that you don't want to agree to. For example, if the publisher's standard contract says that I must have liability and/or worker's compensation insurance, I just cross that out, initial the change, and circle my initials. So far, no one has questioned this. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 16:14:59 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For what it's worth, I've been putting Net Due 30 Days on my invoices from the beginning. For a while I also added, 1.5% Service Charge added to accounts over 30 days. I've never had a publisher honor the service charge even when over due for two months. And of course even on a $1,000 index, that's only $15 dollars - I never felt it was worth turning them over to a collection agency for that. In my experience, based on 28 years now of billing publishers and authors, there are a few who will pay within 30 days. There are a few who will pay within 15 days. The great majority need a reminder invoice after thirty days saying, "Forgive this reminder if you've paid this invoice in the last few days, but ...." I've never felt it was the editor's fault, who have been uniformly apologetic, it's just the way the financial/business department works and short of creating a really nasty fuss, I've learned to live with it. Of course, I've never had anyone go too far past 60 days, except once for a university press. On that one, when I told the managing editor that I couldn't take any more indexes from them until I was paid for the last one, I got a check within a week. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642, Seattle, WA 98115-0642 5028 37th Ave. NE, Seattle, WA 98105 (non-USPS deliveries) Voice: 206-985-8799, 206-524-6624 Cell Phone: 206-841-5209 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Carol Roberts Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 3:37 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts >On the topic of this slow pay business, I was wondering whether it might >be a good idea to stipulate in the contract (does everyone use contracts?) >that the fee must be paid within 30 days of receipt of the index and >perhaps also the invoice (for example)? Or is that a no-no? I was >thinking that if the client signs such a contract, would they not be >obligated by law to pay within that period of time? It seems to me it >would certainly be easier to force them to pay within a reasonable time >frame... I use a contract only when I'm being paid by the author (rather than the Press) or working with a Press for the first time. With my established editors, I don't use one. In those contracts, I do stipulate that payment is due within 30 days. Enforcing that is another matter entirely. You can point out to a client that he or she is past the 30 days, but there's no guarantee you'll receive payment. All the stipulation in the contract does is give you a stronger case if you sue. I do included the "30-day" blurb on all my invoices, but I have no way of knowing whether that has any effect. OTOH, I don't seem to have a lot of slow-paying clients, so this is less of an issue for me than for some of the other folks who are posting. In particular, very few of my clients are book packagers (but the few I've had have paid on time). >I, too, bill for 30 days net, as requested by several publishers. At day 32, >I call clients to see if the invoice is lost. Yes, I agree we as indexers >must be consistent. Payment should be prompt. I have a small reminder program on my computer that I use for this purpose. Every time I send out an invoice, I instruct the computer to ask me in 32 days whether the check has arrived. If it hasn't, I send a reminder to the editor along the lines of, "I haven't yet received payment for X. Would you mind checking to see whether my invoice has fallen through the cracks?" >Sometimes I have generated such a letter (one page) and put a signature block >for both me and client at the bottom, asking the client to signify acceptance >of these terms by signing and returning one copy. Ditto legal review, but it >is less imposing than a contract, and might squeak through at the editor's or >his/her bosses' level. > >Alternatively, ask if they will generate an agreement for you to sign, or a >Work for Hire Letter. That will be their paperwork, spelling out terms, and >signing rights over to them. Be careful of the language in that document -- >it may be to their advantage. Most are fairly straightforward and neutral, >and at least they get the basic down in writing. It is sometimes easier to >get this from the client than to have them sign *your* contract. When I do use a contract, it's of the "confirmation with signature block" type that Janet describes above. Some of my clients use their own contract, I think mostly to establish that I'm an independent contractor. Be aware that you can change the language of those if there's a clause or whatever that you don't want to agree to. For example, if the publisher's standard contract says that I must have liability and/or worker's compensation insurance, I just cross that out, initial the change, and circle my initials. So far, no one has questioned this. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 16:28:41 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another slant. If you have a formal contract, it may be possible to write in a clause providing a discount for timely payment. I have a contract with a government body to which I give a 3 percent discount if payment is made within 30 days. This is for a regular indexing job, which I deliver monthly. Last month (for the first time) they did not pay on time, but they paid the discounted price. I have informed them and they have accepted that the 3 percent will be added to next month's bill. But, like many other indexers, I have some other regular clients with whom I do not have formal contracts, and who are always slow to pay... Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:50:31 +0530 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Doulton Organization: Parametric Technology Corporation - India Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen Field wrote: > > What software was used to create the file? That will be the defining factor. > If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert it back to > Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. Actually.... You won't lose your index markers if you convert from Frame to Word. Amazingly enough Word actually manages NOT to screw that up! But play around first, find a combination that suits you. I agree with Wright, create the index in Cindex first so that when you finally begin embedding, in whatever software, you save time and energy (which you'll need in large quantities especially for Word!). Good Luck! --- Melanie Doulton Technical Writer Parametric Technology Corporation -India ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:46:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Antoinette Arsic Subject: Re: slow pays In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000106120947.0090c250@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, I am taking an indexing class now but was formerly a magazine publisher for 6 years. I added a 1.5 monthly % rate for late bills and if I had clients that paid consistently but were slightly late I didn't charge it, if they went over 60 days I did. Or if I had to send out a second invoice after 30 days I tacked it on for everyone and sure enough checks came in right away for the original amount as if they had "crossed in the mail." They don't want to pay more but just sending out a second invoice lets them know you are serious and their bills will just accrue and it behooves them to get that money in! Antoinette Arsic On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Julia Marshall wrote: > Hi all, > Thought I'd put my two cents into this discussion. Last fall I had a > terrible time collecting from a major publisher who had been one of my best > clients. What happened was that this publisher had been bought out and > everyone on the production staff of the old company had been let go, > including the production editor that I had worked on for the book that I > needed to get paid for. It was the same situation that a lot of you had > described of calling and e-mailing but no response. I persisted though and > called some other contacts in the company and finally got paid. I'm not > going to count this client out. I'll be sending my resume to the new > people. I'm not sure what I could've done differently in this case. > On a related note, my invoice says that I must receive payment within 30 > days. If I don't receive payment, I tack on a %15 surcharge to the total > fee. I've never collected this fee, even from the client mentioned above > although I wish I had. I figure that that %15 surcharge pays for the time > that I spend calling, e-mailing and sending letters. I wish now that I had > stuck to my guns with the abovementioned client and said that I wanted that > %15 fee because of all the time that I did spend trying to collect. But by > the time they were resolving the issue, I was just relieved to get paid. > Does anyone else tack on surcharges? I'm curious. > > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > Silver Spring, MD, 20910 > 301-585-8757 > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > 301-585-8757 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:56:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean-Michel Johnson Subject: the indexing of electronic journals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I wonder if any of you are aware of the existence of a policy concerning the indexing of electronic journals (often referred to as e-zines). I am referring to the bibliographic description of articles that are published on the Internet and therefore do not exist in paper form. Some of the questions that have come up in our experience are ones dealing with: 1- stability of the record (how to be sure that the URL of the document will not change, and what to do when it does). 2- how to describe the record itself - you cannot provide the page numbers of the article, as the length is not the same on each computer screen and may vary depending on the browser used; besides, the virtual "pages" of the articles are not numbered. Alternatively, some of you may have experience with this task. If so, I would like to receive some comments describing your experience, i.e. problems encountered and how they were solved. Thanks in advance for any ideas any of you might be able to provide. Regards, -- Jean-Michel JOHNSON (jmjohnson@sirc.ca) Director of Indexing Services, SIRC SPORTQuest - The Virtual Resource Centre for Sport Information http://www.sportquest.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:51:22 -0500 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you do create the index in Cindex as noted below, it is most helpful to be using Cindex 1.5 since you can drag and drop the entries from Cindex into Word and it creates the embedded entries automatically. You don't have to do any retyping. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Melanie Doulton To: Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 5:20 AM Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question > Karen Field wrote: > > > > > > What software was used to create the file? That will be the defining factor. > > If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert it back to > > Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. > > > > Actually.... > > You won't lose your index markers if you convert from Frame to Word. Amazingly > enough Word actually manages NOT to screw that up! But play around first, find > a combination that suits you. I agree with Wright, create the index in Cindex > first so that when you finally begin embedding, in whatever software, you save > time and energy (which you'll need in large quantities especially for Word!). > > Good Luck! > > --- > Melanie Doulton > Technical Writer > Parametric Technology Corporation -India > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Another option (Was: How to unsubscribe, do the digest etc) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christin, I have set up a filter to automatically place mail from each of the lists I subscribe to into a separate folder from my inbox. This takes all those messages out of my inbox and puts them where I can go through them whenever I have time. I have used filters to do this in both Outlook Express and in Netscape Messenger. I assume most e-mail programs have the feature. I find this works better for those lists with high volume than using digest. It takes less time to zap individual messages that I am not interested in reading than to scroll past them in the digest. Also, I can save ones I want to keep without having to keep the whole digest. A couple of low volume lists I do set for digest, such ASI-L and the SIG lists. Those seldom have more than 3 or 4 posts so scrolling through them is easier. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Christin Keck To: Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 1:42 PM Subject: How to unsubscribe, do the digest etc > Can anyone out there tell me how to reduce the numbers of mails I > get to the digest format for this group? I am having a difficult > time dealing with all the inbox clutter. > > Also, how does one unsubscribe? (Not that I want to, but I > thought I'd save the info.) > -- > CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" > Visit my domain http://www.seekaye.com > or the World of Whislbabe in Geocities, SoHo/Square/4033 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:42:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts (long) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Charles Anderson wrote: For what it's worth, I've been putting Net Due 30 Days on my invoices from the beginning. For a while I also added, 1.5% Service Charge added to accounts over 30 days. I've never had a publisher honor the service charge even when over due for two months. And of course even on a $1,000 index, that's only $15 dollars - I never felt it was worth turning them over to a collection agency for that. _____________ Although I don't do a whole lot of freelancing of any kind (I'm a wage slave), I've been following this thread with interest in case I ever do become a freelancer. Because I've been involved in the business end of things in past job reincarnations, and my mother was a bookkeeper for over 40 years, I'd like to shed some light on the corporate side to this thread. (Mind you, I'm not defending it, just explaining it.) Say you complete an index and your practice is to send the invoice with the completed index. The invoice *says* "Net 30 days". Your index and accompanying invoice arrives at the packager or publisher on the 5th of the month. According to the terms of the invoice, that would make the payment due on the 5th of the following month. HOWEVER (I'm not shouting, just adding extra emphasis), even if your contact immediately sends your invoice to the Accounts Payable Dept. that same exact day, it doesn't mean diddly squat because AP departments usually have a schedule of when they actually pay bills. So, let's take the invoice dated the 5th of January, for example. That invoice goes to the AP dept. of XYZ Publishers, Inc. on the 6th. Great so far. The AP dept., however, is currently in the process of paying December's bills and this process lasts until the 15th (process includes not just making out the checks, having them signed, and sending them out, but also updating all spreadsheets, tax stuff, etc.). Their next scheduled date for *starting* the processing of *January's* bills is February 16th, whereby according to your invoice they are already 11 days late and by the time you actually *receive* the check (assuming snail mail), it could be anywhere's around 20--30 days late, and this assumes AP got the invoice immediately. Once you take into account a contact who misplaces or misfiles your invoice before it ever gets to AP, well... See what I'm saying here? Even the "Net 30 days" or "1.5% Service Charge added to accounts over 30 days" means virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things with a large firm. The most it will do is to be a deterrent for your contact there to sit on it. I once asked my mother about this issue when I went in to help her at her office once. I noticed that she paid some bills that had these very same caveats on them, but they were "late" being paid, and yet the surcharge wasn't paid. She gave me virtually the answer I related above except it was more along the lines of "I pay bills a certain time every month and if I paid attention to that stuff, that's all I'd be doing is paying one bill here, two bills there. Nothing else would get done and nothing would be organized." Now she was the soul bookkeeper (she did *everything*) for three stores. Multiply that by a large corporation and you'll get chaos. My $0.05. Hope it helps. elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 11:34:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: OT: tracking down copyright MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I apologize for the off-topic post, but I thought that this list would be a good place to ask: Does anyone know how to go about tracking down who owns the copyright to a work or body of works? I'm guessing that if the books are still in print, one contacts the publisher? What if the books are out of print? I'd appreciate any and all pointers, leads, and thoughts on how to go about this. Thank you, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:28:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: slow pays and contracts (long) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:42 AM -0500 1/7/00, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: >...So, let's take the invoice dated the 5th of January, for example. >That invoice goes to the AP dept. of XYZ Publishers, Inc. on the 6th. >Great so far. The AP dept., however, is currently in the process of >paying December's bills and this process lasts until the 15th >(process includes not just making out the checks, having them signed, >and sending them out, but also updating all spreadsheets, tax stuff, >etc.). Their next scheduled date for *starting* the processing of >*January's* bills is February 16th, whereby according to your invoice >they are already 11 days late... > > I'm confused. This hypothetical company AP department pays December's bills in the first half of January, until the 15th, and they go skiing for a month and start paying January's bills the *second* half of February, the 16th? Continuing this cycle of six weeks for each month's bills wouldn't this mean they would be paying ..umm.. August's bills in December? Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Corporate AP Procedures MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF592D.E4265602" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF592D.E4265602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I am quite thankful for Elaine Firestone's explanation. Even people who worked in industry or corporate venues might have little knowledge of how various other departments work. I think the more we learn about the "real world" gut workings, the more we can understand how to deal with it realistically. Thanks Elaine. Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents Arizona State University e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Snowy morning-- one crow after another. [Basho] ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF592D.E4265602 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Corporate AP Procedures

I am quite thankful for = Elaine Firestone's explanation.  Even people who worked in = industry or corporate venues might have little knowledge of how various = other departments work.  I think the more we learn about the = "real world" gut workings, the more we can understand how to = deal with it realistically. 

Thanks Elaine.


Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor

Academic and Administrative Documents

Arizona State University

e-mail:  dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Snowy = morning--
one crow
after = another.   [Basho]

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF592D.E4265602-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:55:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Another option - filters for e-mail In-Reply-To: <00ac01bf5921$c7ef3a00$1ccab7c7@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Christin, > >I have set up a filter to automatically place mail from each of the lists I also have done this with Eudora Lite and now am doing this with Eudora Pro, keeping my incoming (and outgoing) mail a bit more under control! -- ***************************************************************************** J. NAOMI LINZER Indexing Services P.O. Box 1341 ~ 459 Redway Drive ~ Redway, CA 95560-1341 jnlinzer@saber.net ~ 707/923-4361 ~ Fax: 360/838-5620 ***************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers web site. ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:47:10 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Omnibus cross references Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Last night, while looking over indexes in biography books that are in my own library for some style pointers, I ran across the following entry sequence in a biography of Henry VIII published by Summit Books in 1980: Henry VIII, king of England: see also specific persons and topics In an age of generality, this one really takes the cake! Or perhaps it is the "one size fits all" indexing method? Lillian ashworth@pullman.com (who's still laughing over this one) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 10:38:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Embedded indexing question In-Reply-To: <3875BDEE.43C86E3B@ptc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No you don't lose them, but page ranging in word doesn't transfer over, and the see reference structure is off. Jan At 03:50 PM 01/07/2000 +0530, you wrote: >Karen Field wrote: > > >> >> What software was used to create the file? That will be the defining factor. >> If you convert a Word file to Frame and then index it and convert it back to >> Word, for example, your index marks will be lost. > > > >Actually.... > >You won't lose your index markers if you convert from Frame to Word. Amazingly >enough Word actually manages NOT to screw that up! But play around first, find >a combination that suits you. I agree with Wright, create the index in Cindex >first so that when you finally begin embedding, in whatever software, you save >time and energy (which you'll need in large quantities especially for Word!). > >Good Luck! > >--- >Melanie Doulton >Technical Writer >Parametric Technology Corporation -India =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 09:37:47 -0800 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: tracking down copyright In-Reply-To: <200001071636.LAA15731@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any public library reference librarian should be able to give you information on this. Also, if you visit the Library of Congress Web site - http://lcweb.loc.gov and click on the Copyright info button, you will find a helpful FAQ. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642, Seattle, WA 98115-0642 5028 37th Ave. NE, Seattle, WA 98105 (non-USPS deliveries) Voice: 206-985-8799, 206-524-6624 Cell Phone: 206-841-5209 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of John and Kara Pekar Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 8:35 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: OT: tracking down copyright I apologize for the off-topic post, but I thought that this list would be a good place to ask: Does anyone know how to go about tracking down who owns the copyright to a work or body of works? I'm guessing that if the books are still in print, one contacts the publisher? What if the books are out of print? I'd appreciate any and all pointers, leads, and thoughts on how to go about this. Thank you, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 14:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Late pays (or a first!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Given the recent thread on slow pays/no pays I have to report a first in my life as a contractor. In addition to being happy with my work, he paid upon receipt of the two completed indexes! Getting paid on receipt is a first! I guess that that would be a Net zero on the invoice, right? :) Now I can get caught up on sleep and play at that contra dance in Concord tomorrow nite. :). .. Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:02:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Durbin-Westby Subject: contra dancing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Willa: I have been thinking about contra dancing all day for some reason... I = haven't done it in a while but just found a an old pair of shoes I had = tried to convert into good contra shoes by gluing smooth leather on the = bottom. What do you play? I've thought of playing piano for contra = dances but then I wouldn't get to dance! Regards, Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:04:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Off topic: contra dancing In-Reply-To: <20000107211525.AAA9871@Astrovan.cstone.net@client209-3-22- 108.louisa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: I play tin whistle and am a wanna-be contra dance musician. I figure if I play enough years, I'll get to recognize some contra dance tunes by ear. Then I won't have to depend on sheet music, as I do now. Will you be going to the conference in May? Maybe we could combine forces and organize a chance to jam sometime during the conference, assuming there is a piano at the conference hotel. Let me know off-list if you will be there and maybe we could schedule something. Speaking of which, I was wondering if there will be a chance for indexers to combine musical talents at the conference this year, as we did last June? At 05:02 PM 1/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Willa: > >I have been thinking about contra dancing all day for some reason... I >haven't done it in a while but just found a an old pair of shoes I had >tried to convert into good contra shoes by gluing smooth leather on the >bottom. What do you play? I've thought of playing piano for contra >dances but then I wouldn't get to dance! > >Regards, > >Paula Durbin-Westby Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 19:03:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Music at the ASI annual conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed So it's begun -- I was wondering if there would be an interest in doing some musical things at the Albuquerque meeting, similar to last year. I you want me to organize it, I will. So: if you're going to be at the Albuquerque meeting and want to participate in some informal musical events (vocal, instrumental, dance), let me know and I'll put you all together so you can plan something. Think I'll post something to ASI-L, now that I'm thinking of it . . . Karen Lane klane@klane.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 23:39:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Clare Watsky Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 5 Jan 2000 to 6 Jan 2000 (#2000-7) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/6/00 9:03:47 PM, LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU writes: << Well Dorothy, although that is a good point (guaranteeing educated consumers for our product), it wasn't *the* point of my post. It was more along the lines of: are kids getting an education on how an index is put together? More importantly though, is whether kids are getting educated on how to actually *use* indexes to get information, as well as other library-type skills. ....... Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov Elaine, Since I work an elementary school library, and have children in middle school, this topic is close to my heart also. At our school we do teach card catalog skills (yes, we still have one, this is California after all) but I think we are the exception for elementary schools in our district. In our library we have research games which are designed to help kids use the encyclopedia. Of course the web can be an invaluable source of information, but that does not mean that children can skip learning to look things up in the encyclopedia, dictionary, etc., This is a fundamental skill for intellectual development, like many others which are somehow seen as passe. Certainly my own kids have bought into the idea of the web as a easy, quick shortcut. (see High Tech Heretic by Clifford Stoll) Clare Watsky