Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9902A" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:34:57 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Sending compressed files If you are sending a compressed file it is worth taking the extra step of converting it into a self-extracting archive (SEA). This is a program that when run will 'turn itself inside out' and extract copies of the files that are contained within it. The recipient doesn't need any special unzipping software; all they need to do is to be able to run a program. The extra overhead added to the ZIP file by turning it into an SEA is very small - on the order of tens of kilobytes. WinZip (http://www.winzip.com) will do this - I don't know about other programs. Jonathan ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 07:44:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nell Benton Subject: Re: Cindex files Thanks, Mike. I think it was AOL. Nell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:39:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Test e-mail This is a test. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:40:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: ASI Conference If you are not a member of ASI and wish to receive a conference brochure, please contact me directly, giving me your snail mail address. I will have your name added to the mailing list. Sandi Schroeder Vice president, ASI sanindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bill Waymer Subject: Re: Test e-mail Your test worked! Barbara Cohen wrote: > This is a test. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:37:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: ASI Conference In-Reply-To: <199902011544.KAA03335@shooter.bluemarble.net> Please do, address is Marvant Duhon 3671 South Hays Drive Bloomington, IN 47403 Thanks! On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Sandi Schroeder wrote: > If you are not a member of ASI and wish to receive a conference brochure, > please contact me directly, giving me your snail mail address. I will have > your name added to the mailing list. > > Sandi Schroeder > Vice president, ASI > sanindex@xsite.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:14:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith McQuay Subject: Working with word processing files I posted this question a couple of days ago but I don't think the email went through. Sorry if you've seen it before. I am about to talk to a prospective client who I suspect is going to ask me to index a 400 page book directly in his WordPerfect 8 files. Looking at WP's indexing capabilities they seem pretty rudimentary with just one level of subheading. How to do cross-references that don't end up with a locator? You can get into the index style and change things around but I have a feeling it will fail at more complicated things like turnover lines, "Continued"'s at the head of a new column or page and so on. Just seeing what you are doing will not be easy once you've past a small number of entries. I suspect I will have to do a lot of manual formatting of the index once it is generated. Have you had experience indexing large word processing documents? Is it as bad as it looks from here? THANKS Keith McQuay ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:48:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith Owen Richards Subject: Request for virtual mentor Greetings, I am new to this list, and considering quite strongly becoming involved in back-of-the-book indexing. Rather than swamping this list with my neophyte questions, I thought it might be better to put out a general request for some kind soul to act as a virtual mentor to me. If anyone on this list would not mind fielding some questions, I'd very much appreciate hearing from you. Some general information on myself: I have an M.A. (and some Ph.D.) work in English, and I've done some college teaching. My goal is primarily to index books in the humanities (especially literature, philosophy, and urban history/sociology). I haven't yet taken an indexing course, but plan to and would like to solicit opinions on which one might be the most appropriate. I can be contacted off-list at richardk@storm.simpson.edu Again, if anyone would be willing to give me a push (or a kick!) in the right direction, I'd be most thankful. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:26:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sending compressed files ZipIt will also create a Self-Extracting file. It gives you the option of creating a .ZIP or an .EXE file. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:30:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Working with word processing files At 12:14 PM 2/1/1999 -0500, Keith McQuay wrote: >I am about to talk to a prospective client who I suspect is going to ask me >to index a 400 page book directly in his WordPerfect 8 files. Looking at >WP's indexing capabilities they seem pretty rudimentary with just one level >of subheading. Keith, I haven't used WP for indexing since edition 5.1, but I wouldn't bother with its built-in indexing capabilities, rudimentary or not. What I always did was use it as a very expensive alphabetizing machine. Now, with sophisticated macro capabilities, you can probably do the job a lot easier than I did it years ago, but the basic operation is to use the program like a typewriter, not an indexing program. Type in each entry as you want it to appear, using macros to do the repetitive stuff, such as: Dogs, sporting, bloodhounds, 4, 78 Dogs, sporting, spaniels, 90, 102 Dogs, sporting, bluetick hounds, 33 Properly configured, you can type the whole entry once, then add subheads by invoking the macro and typing the subhead and page numbers. You can alphabetize as you go, every so often...or keep it in page number order (which is how you will type it) until the end. If you choose to alphabetize every few entries, be sure you've dealt with things so you don't "lose" the "see" and "see also" refs to the "s" department. When you're all through with the index, you add any "see" and "see also" references you may have missed, and tune it all up...spell check, edit, and so forth. It's cumbersome, but it will work. However, if it were me, I would suggest that he print out the index (or you do it and charge some nominal fee for the cost of time and paper) and just let you index the thing with Macrex or whatever program you use. It's just so much easier! If he wants embedded tags or something, that's an area I know next to nothing about. Otherwise, there's no reason to use WP to do any indexing at all. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 18:12:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Landes Subject: Re: Sending compressed files I've never tried sending anything this way, but other people have sent me self-extracting zip files compressed with WinZip. The self-extraction process worked perfectly, and I haven't lost any data. Cheryl Landes Tabby Cat Communications In a message dated 2/1/99 4:51:21 PM EST, jonjermey@HERMES.NET.AU writes: << jonjermey@HERMES.NET.AU >> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:43:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Patton Subject: DC Chapter meeting The Washington, DC Chapter will hold its next meeting on March 6, 1999 at the National Agricultural Library, Room 1400 in Beltsville, MD. 9:30 -10, pastries and socializing 10 - 12, annual Chapter business meeting (short) including introduction of candidates followed by roundtable schmoozes: marking up text with Richard Shrout; contracting with publishers with Enid Zafran; a "no topic" table where you decide what to talk about; and updates on Web indexing by members. There is no fee to attend, but please register by contacting Mike Bernier at mbernier@bna.com or 202/452-6395 Directions: the National Agricultural Library is just north of the Capital Beltway, on the east side of Route 1 (aka Baltimore Boulevard). From I-95 take exit 25 North on Route 1 to Beltsville. NAL is the tall brown building on the right. Due to renovations at the main entrance, we must use the employee entrance and parking lot on the Route 1 side of the building. Entering the employee entrance, you will be on the ground floor. Take the elevator to the 14th floor and we'll see you there! Deborah Patton Vice Chair/Chair-Elect Washington, DC Chapter of ASI ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:23:51 -0500 Reply-To: lfs7@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Loraine Schacher Organization: Editor, Writer, Indexer Subject: Zipped files Thanks for the information, Janet--now tell us please: What is "ZipIt," and is it available as shareware, or is it for specific platforms? I use an Apple Macintosh, and have an Iomega Zip drive. What do I need now to use the "ZipIt" you mentioned? Thanks, Loraine -------------------- Janet Perlman wrote: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:26:35 EST From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sending compressed files ZipIt will also create a Self-Extracting file. It gives you the option of creating a .ZIP or an .EXE file. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:21:37 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Marketing / LMP listings Hi all- Just noticed that the Literary Market Place contains a large listing of editorial service providers, including a number of indexers. Has anyone tried this route? If so, did you receive any work from your listing? Lillian ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:32:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erin Pierce Subject: Re: Marketing / LMP listings In-Reply-To: <199902022223.RAA06643@alphaclp.clpgh.org> I had just submitted my name to be in next years LMP. They will only take nominations until I think that end of last year (I could be wrong - the fine print in in there). So - I should be in 2000's - won't know much till then.... Erin Pier On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Lillian Ashworth wrote: > Hi all- > > Just noticed that the Literary Market Place contains a large listing of > editorial service providers, including a number of indexers. > > Has anyone tried this route? If so, did you receive any work from your listing? > > Lillian > ashworth@pullman.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:34:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Marketing / LMP listings In about 20 years of being listed in LMP I received maybe two calls--one a job I would never have taken and the other someone looking for work. Elinor Lindheimer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:42:25 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Request for virtual mentor In-Reply-To: <199902012046.MAA26306@mail-gw.pacbell.net> At 02:48 PM 02/01/1999 -0600, Keith wrote: >Greetings, > >I am new to this list, and considering quite strongly becoming involved in >back-of-the-book indexing. > >Rather than swamping this list with my neophyte questions, I thought it >might be better to put out a general request for some kind soul to act as a >virtual mentor to me. If anyone on this list would not mind fielding some >questions, I'd very much appreciate hearing from you. Hi Keith, Answering neophyte questions is one of the many things that Index-L excels at. Please don't be afraid to post your questions to the list. Also consider the fact that there are many other "neophytes" here who have the same questions you do, so many would benefit our responses to your particular questions. ;-D >Again, if anyone would be willing to give me a push (or a kick!) in the >right direction, I'd be most thankful. Consider yourself pushed (or kicked) in the right direction to get answers to your questions. ;-D Lynn *********************************** Lynn Moncrief (techndex@pacbell.net) "If we had no faults of our own, we would not take so much pleasure in noticing those of others." - Francois Duc De La Rochefoucauld *********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:40:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: freelance job scam Hi all- A word of warning: Last night NBC television Nightly News did a piece on online job searches toward the end of the evening newscast. According to Brokaw, these services were free. One of the sites mentioned was "hotjobs.com". Forget this one! I just tried it, got as far as writing my skills blurb and submitting a resume. I was promptly put through to the jobs listings, then hit with the punch line. Only one free job would be listed during trial membership. The job? advertising their service on chat/newsgroups. (Don't think this is the advertisement they had in mind!) All other job info not available without a $25.00 monthly fee! So much for not-so HotJobs! Lillian ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:02:21 -0800 Reply-To: "akelso@xcert.com" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Kelso Organization: Xcert International Inc. Subject: Thesaurus for Technical Manuals Hello, I'm one of two technical writers working in a relatively new department in a growing company. One of our tasks is to create indexes for our User Guides, and one of our problems is going to be maintaining consistent use of terminology and usage between us. I did quite a bit of indexing at my previous job where I was the lone technical writer, but I have no training in it and worked by intuition, examples from other manuals, and advice from lurking on this list, and at that time I didn't have to worry about keeping a consistent format/style with someone else. The other writer has no indexing experience but is currently taking a short indexing course. She said that the course teacher suggests developing a thesaurus. The thesaurus idea sounds like a good one to me, and I'm guessing that a basic thesaurus for a series of related technical manuals won't take the weeks, months, or years to accomplish that I saw mentioned in posts from a week or so ago. We each have to do 2 or 3 indexes and they need to have the same format and use the same terminology. However, I have never seen an indexing thesaurus and I think I would have a better understanding of how the process works if I saw a few examples. Would someone be willing to send me an example of a thesaurus, particularly one for technical material. Or, if we're headed in the wrong direction (I've started to wonder since I read the time estimates in the earlier posts from the archives) would someone be able to point us in a better direction. Thank you, Andrea Kelso Andrea Kelso Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street P.O. Box 10145, Pacific Centre tel: 1-604-640-6210 x 238 Vancouver, B.C., Canada V7Y 1C6 fax: 1-604-640-6220 http://www.xcert.com e-mail: akelso@xcert.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:58:15 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Request for virtual mentor I heartily agree with Lynn. Everyone on Index-L has been helpful in responding to my questions. I know their time is limited, but I have been amazed at the time they have given us novice indexers. As Lynn says, by asking your questions online, all of us can profit by the answers. Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing jeanmidd@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:55:00 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Thanks for your help on first project I want to thank Do Mi, Sonsi, Charlotte, and all who responded to my cry for help on my first project recently. I received the 338-page manuscript at noon on Thursday and delivered my final copy, a 5-page index to the publisher on Monday. I worked about 30 hours on it. I have no idea how experienced indexers would view the final product. I did the best I could. It was wonderful experience and showed me exactly what working toward a deadline would be like. I was accustomed to tight deadlines as a proposal editor for 29 years, but I was afraid I could not do such an indexing project fast enough. Actually, it is much easier since my office is here in my home now, not 42 miles away. I was spending 3 hours a day on the freeway. I would get home at 3 a.m. and leave home at 7 and work again to midnight. Here I could go to sleep and get up and work when I feel like it. It is perfect. The only way you can really see how you like indexing is to get into a project with a real deadline. I find it compelling, and I am sure all of you do, too. I know I am a novice, but I hope I have the knack for it. My husband kept asking, "Are you finished yet?" And I kept saying, "No." At any rate, thanks to all of you for being there. Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing Riverside, CA jeanmidd@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 03:10:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Thanks for your help on first project Jean, congratulations on successfully completing your first job--and with such a horrendous deadline, too! Sounds as if you'll tackle the next one with a lot of confidence! Good for you. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:34:23 -0500 Reply-To: "Bill_Menker@mazer.com" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bill Menker Organization: Mazer Corp Subject: Re: Thesaurus for Technical Manuals Andrea, You might consider purchasing ANSI/NISO's _Guidelines for the Construction, Format, and Management of Monolingual Thesauri_, available for $49 from NISO Press, Box 1056, Bethesda, MD 20827. On the web at: http://www.niso.org/pubpub.html Several examples of thesauri are included in the appendices. Also, you can find links to many various thesauri on the Web Thesaurus Compendium at: http://www-cui.darmstadt.gmd.de/~lutes/thesauri.html Hope this helps. Bill ********************************** Bill Menker Information Science Specialist The Mazer Corporation Dayton, Ohio Bill_Menker@mazer.com ********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:09:57 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Laurence Errington Subject: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK In-Reply-To: <000001be2cf4$d7c050e0$53b259c3@indexer> Below is a copy of a letter I had printed in the Winter issue of SIdelights. I'm placing a copy here as a decision was made to delete most of one paragraph (the portion between the ***) as it was considered untrue and I'd like to set the record straight on that point. Also the deletion and some consequential formatting errors adversely affected its sense. Lastly, some Index-L users in the UK might not read Sidelights so here's my chance to extend the audience for my protest! ORIGINAL LETTER: At conference '98 and in recent SIdelights issues we have been informed that IA listing from 2003 will be restricted to qualified indexers only. It will bar all unqualified indexers no matter what their degree of professional experience (despite the assurances we were given that people providing proof of a high degree of professional experience would still be allowed to be listed even if they did not enjoy the `automatic' right). No one provided evidence that there was a legal obligation for SI to list only those with qualifications (which was put forward as one reason for these changes). The other reason put forward is to encourage people to attain qualifications, but I think this way is unjust. This move will, I believe, adversely affect many good indexers. Some have wondered why I personally am worried. I have up until now, always been offered more work than I can cope with, and the publishers who I work for will still know me, even if I become unlisted. However, there is an increasing trend for publishers to subcontract work to freelance project managers, who will have to find indexers themselves. These freelancers will only have IA for locating indexers, and I won't know who these people are so that I can write to them all. Getting back on to IA will not be easy. There are changes in the Registration procedure from 2000, aiming to solve past problems, including addressing the issue of `objectivity'. I applaud that, but how will this help candidates, if the pass rate is maintained at the abysmally low rate? When I queried at conference the reason for the low pass rate (10-15%? - why will no-one publish the figures over the past 30 years?), there were outcries from one group as to why it should be raised, their argument being that RIs must be of the highest standard. The words sound fine (although pass rate was much much higher back in the late 60s and 70s as was apparent from Hazel Bell's historical article in The Indexer vol. 21 page 34). Is no one asking why such a high proportion of candidates for RI are applying (many with lots of practical indexing experience and accompanying relevant academic background in their subject), thinking that they are good enough to pass, yet failing? Only to attain qualifications to reach the highest, most prestigious and well-paid professions, where the rewards are high, are candidates prepared to submit themselves to examinations that have such low pass rates. For example, a Consultant friend who is a Member of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists told me that the proportion passing their membership exams is around 35%. It is exasperating to come up against such a brick wall. ****Furthermore, from 2000, only those with the lesser indexing qualifications will have a right to attempt Registration, barring even the most highly experienced indexers without qualification except `in exceptional circumstances' (which have not been made clear). I think it's unreasonable to expect such very experienced indexers to take a course appropriate to apprentice indexers, just so as to be allowed to attempt Registration and be able to get back on the IA list. It was even hinted, at the conference, that it is maybe an aim in the longer term to make RI the only the qualification to guarantee IA listing.*** These rule changes, distance me (a highly experienced indexer of over 800 texts supported by an 18 year university background appropriate to my indexing speciality), and I suspect many others, further and further from attaining Registration and listing in IA. It will, if anything, alienate a large number of indexers from the feeling that SI is practically representing them, and may impact unfavourably on membership numbers, and I suggest, quality. Might it undermine the credibility of the Society and its IA listing, if publishers notice that some of their favoured indexers, considered by them to produce indexes to the highest standards in their specialities, have suddenly been excluded. I would appeal to SI to reconsider their decisions regarding IA listing criteria, and ask ordinary members in the meantime to voice their opinions on these changes, in SIdelights, at meetings, on Index-L, or wherever. END OF LETTER TO SIDELIGHTS. The part deleted as you should see, was in the 5th paragraph starting `It is exasperating....' and dealt with the new registration guidelines. I think anyone reading the guidelines would have made the same interpretation as myself. The guidelines say that apart from indexers who `have satisfactorily completed an indexing course followed by practical indxing experience', the only other category of indexers to be allowed to attempt registration will be those `in exceptional cases, [that] have other suitable indexing and indexing-related experience'. I have since been informed that, in practice, this was meant to ensure that SI did not get applications from inexperienced with no training at all, and that applications would still be accepted as before from experienced indexers. I believe that there is to be re-drafting of the registration information leaflet, in which case, I hope the conditions applying to non-qualified indexers will be revised to make it clear that applications will indeed be accepted from professionally well- experienced indexers. I would also hope that in that revision, reasonably objective criteria can be found for what constitutes an experienced indexer, e.g. parameters such as the volume of indexing work one has completed. If proof was needed, one could be asked to provide letters from the publishers/project managers that one works for testifying as to the quantity of work one has done, and perhaps other things like satisfaction with the indexer's overall professional competence. -- Dr Laurence Errington 15 Kirkhill Terrace, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH16 5DQ Tel: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 Fax: 0044-(0)131-667-5406 (9-7pm GMT weekdays only) E-Mail: laurence@errington-index.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:56:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: ZipIt Someone recently asked where to obtain ZipIt for the Macintosh. Go to . ZipIt is listed as a shareware program on the second page. hth, Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:27:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Lynne M. Wellin" Subject: Carolina ASI Meeting The spring meeting of Carolina ASI will take place on Saturday, March 20, 1999 from 9 a.m.-2 p.m. at the Wren Memorial Library in Siler City, N.C. There will be a brief social period followed by a business meeting and results of the chapter election. Our guest speaker will be Lori Lathrop, ASI National President. Lunch will be held at Golden Corral in Siler City, N.C. We hope to see you there! Lynne Wellin Program Committee ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:43:56 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ITASCA.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: subscription info for ASI-l ? Would some kind soul please send me the info on how to subscribe to ASI-L? Thanks much. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 651-297-2952 maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:42:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kristina Ricks Subject: Questions about IX-Gen for FrameMaker Hi all-- I've been lurking for a week or so, hoping to see some discussion about IX-Gen for FrameMaker, and I haven't seen any yet. Is anyone familiar with this product? I've got some specific technical questions, I've been through the demo version and I'm not sure it does what I want. However, if someone more experienced has used it, I'd love to ask some questions. If this information is on an FAQ list somewhere, or if there's a better source than this list, please let me know. Thanks! Kristina Kristina Ricks 503/531-7061 (voice) 503/531-7001 (fax) MedicaLogic, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:57:36 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Frank Stearns Subject: Re: Questions about IX-Gen for FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <199902031944.LAA00928@mailhub.pacifier.com> from "Kristina Ricks" at Feb 3, 99 11:42:07 am > > Hi all-- > > I've been lurking for a week or so, hoping to see some discussion about > IX-Gen for FrameMaker, and I haven't seen any yet. Is anyone familiar > with this product? I've got some specific technical questions, I've been > through the demo version and I'm not sure it does what I want. However, > if someone more experienced has used it, I'd love to ask some questions. > > If this information is on an FAQ list somewhere, or if there's a better > source than this list, please let me know. Thanks! Hi Kristina - Back in September we answered a number of IXgen questions for you. Will be happy to answer any additional. You might also try the Framers news group and list serve. The news group is at comp.text.frame; the listserve changed recently, I believe, but a web search ought to find it fairly quickly. Thanks! + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | Frank Stearns Associates | Developers of Tools for FrameMaker(r): | | mailto:franks@fsatools.com | IXgen, FM2A, Programmable Export Kit | | 360/892-3970 fx:360/253-1498 | Now shipping IXgen 5.5 for Windows!! | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + | http://www.pacifier.com/~franks (Email if web page access problems) | + --------------------------------------------------------------------- + ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:55:33 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Thesaurus for Technical Manuals Andrea, It was my question about thesaurus construction that led to the time estimates you mention. Having read the replies and talked to a few people I have estimated 1 month or less to create a thesaurus for in-house use in a limited subject area. Many of the thesauri that take years to create are for broad subject areas for use by a large number of people, and I think these factors contribute to the length of time they take. If you only have to do a few indexes, and only have to keep two indexers consistent, it is possible that a simple list of preferred terms (ie terms you will use) would be adequate, perhaps with a few references from unused terms. You should be able to see an example of a thesaurus in a local library. Most would have Library of Congress Subject Headings at least (even though some people would not call it a proper thesaurus it still has the basic structure). Glenda. Andrea Kelso wrote: > I'm one of two technical writers working in a relatively new department in > a growing company. One of our tasks is to create indexes for our User > Guides, and one of our problems is going to be maintaining consistent use > of terminology and usage between us. I did quite a bit of indexing at my > previous job where I was the lone technical writer, but I have no training > in it and worked by intuition, examples from other manuals, and > advice from > lurking on this list, and at that time I didn't have to worry > about keeping > a consistent format/style with someone else. > > The thesaurus idea sounds like a good one to me, and I'm guessing that a > basic thesaurus for a series of related technical manuals won't take the > weeks, months, or years to accomplish that I saw mentioned in posts from a > week or so ago. We each have to do 2 or 3 indexes and they need > to have the > same format and use the same terminology. However, I have never seen an > indexing thesaurus and I think I would have a better understanding of how > the process works if I saw a few examples. > > Would someone be willing to send me an example of a thesaurus, > particularly > one for technical material. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:23:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) All - Regarding Dr. Laurence Errington's posting on the selectivity of SI: I don't want to overreact to this, and in the cosmic scheme of things SI and its policymakers surely are minor demons, even if Dr. Errington's observations are entirely accurate and understated. But even in our small world of indexing, in what one might expect to be a benign confraternity, I seem to see another example (rather small, to be sure) of that inexplicable impulse toward the "us vs. them" attitude that has partitioned our species into winners and losers and, at worst, into survivors and victims. Advocates of certification please take note. This aspect of our collective behavior (plus what I believe to be its intrinsic unworkability) is why I am opposed to ASI Indexer certification. In a parallel universe such a program might work beautifully, but on this planet I see only administrative hubris, destructive professional discrimination, and personal conflicts resulting from the imposition of such a structure. The circumstances outlined in Dr. Errington's posting surely should serve as a cautionary tale to those who see nothing but benefits in certification, or who claim "it can't happen here". It has been my observation over a fair number of years that goodness (or integrity, compassion and kindness) largely reside in individuals, but rarely so in organizations. Of course there are good people and wretched people, but at least there seems to be a reasonable distribution of these qualities. Organizations, on the other hand, with some wonderfully notable exceptions, seem to be clustered on the venal, inhumane end of the spectrum. I don't understand this dichotomy. Why do honest, gentle, reasonable people (good parents, church-going tithers, solicitous care-givers to aged parents, etc.) transform when working in organizations into policy makers for HMOs, politicians who want to eliminate health care, researchers developing germ warfare, automobile manufacturers selling unsafe cars, insurance companies that deny legitimate claims, hospitals that deny treatment, cigarette manufacturers and their advertising agencies, drug companies that grossly overcharge for essential medications and, of course, practitioners of "ethnic cleansing"? Although I often have known individuals who have refrained from some course of action because it was inappropriate or unkind or dishonest, I rarely have known of an administrative, government or commercial enterprise that has repudiated any apparently advantageous action or policy because it was unethical or even unspeakable. With no exceptions of which I am aware, anything that can be done will be done. For example, what rational species would apply gene manipulation to developing drug-resistant strains of anthrax with the intention of inflicting it on itself? Or would, as in the case of Monsanto, develop what is known as the Terminator Technology, in which crops are gene-manipulated so that their seeds are made sterile. Growers could not save a portion of their crop for replanting, but would have to buy new seed each year. This tinkering with the most basic life processes has the potential for destroying food-crop biodiversity and, if cross-pollination spreads these strains uncontrollably, could cause irreversible global famine. (BTW, for more information on this see the Rural Advancement Foundation International website at http://www.rafi.ca/) Now, admittedly it is a long way from the SI policy explicated by Dr. Errington to the control of the world's food supply by an insatiable mega- corporation. But other than a difference in scale, I don't see much difference in intrinsic quality, in the basic insensitivity to consequences. Is there a profound flaw in our species, a self-destructive twist in our collective DNA? We seem to embrace every behavior from the angelic to the demonic, with nothing excepted in between. Sometimes the prospects are wonderful and exciting, at other times simply exhausting and discouraging. We never seem to learn... Ah, well.... Please forgive my rant. Probably suffering from CNN overload or, more likely, simply sleep-deprived. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: youngll@banet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lana Young Subject: asi-l Maryann inquired about subscribing to ASI-L. This electronic forum is limited to current ASI members and by invitation only. ASI would contact the current member by email address or the member could write to info@asindexing.org. Seth Maislin is the ASI board member and ASI-L representative who originally sent the announcement ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:57:11 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Betty Frizzell Subject: Cindex tab indents This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a new indexer working on my third index. The specifications = provided by the publisher require that I insert tabs and not paragraph = format indenting for subentries and sub-subentries under main entries. I = am using Cindex for Windows. If I use the Delimited Records under Save = as type, will this be the proper way to accomplish this? If not, how do = I do it? =20 Also, I am having trouble figuring out how to make the Roman numbered = locators appear before the Arabic numbered locators.=20 =20 Thanks in advance. =20 Betty Frizzell Frizzell Indexing Service frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am a new indexer working on my = third index.=20 The specifications provided by the publisher require that I insert tabs = and not=20 paragraph format indenting for subentries and sub-subentries under main = entries.=20 I am using Cindex for Windows. If I use the Delimited Records under Save = as=20 type, will this be the proper way to accomplish this?  If not, how = do I do=20 it?
 
Also, I am having trouble figuring = out how to=20 make the Roman numbered locators appear before the Arabic numbered = locators.=20
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Betty Frizzell
Frizzell Indexing = Service
frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 04:59:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ken Reigner Subject: WIW Home Office Technology Conference, Feb. 20, Washington, DC [Please forgive the cross-posts.] Writers To Learn How To Streamline Their Home-Based Offices at WIW's Feb. 20 Home Office Technology Conference WASHINGTON--Tips and techniques for modernizing writers' home offices will be plentiful during the Home Office Technology Conference scheduled for Saturday, Feb. 20. Sponsored by Washington Independent Writers (WIW), the conference is designed for individuals who work from home-based offices. Sessions will focus on using technology to streamline home offices and improve efficiency. The meeting will run from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. at the University Club, 1135 16th St. N.W., Washington, D.C. Rob Pegoraro, editor of the Washington Post's Fast Forward section, will address how technology affects the media and the marketplace. Ken Norkin, free-lance copywriter and president of KN Creative, will speak about how writers can modernize their home offices. Melinda (Mindy) McAdams, American Press Institute Web strategist, will discuss how writers can connect to the world through the Internet. Sara Cormeny, independent Web site designer and founder of paperlantern.com, will advise writers on how to create World Wide Web pages. A question-and-answer session featuring free-lance writer and independent consultant Peter J. Ognibene, as well as all of the day's speakers, will close out the conference. Advance registration is $100 for WIW members and $125 for non-members. After Feb. 10, fees will increase to $115 and $140, respectively. Writers may join WIW and attend the conference for $180 with advance registration. After Feb. 10, that rate will increase to $195. A $10 surcharge will apply to registrations at the door. A buffet lunch is included with registration. For additional information or to register, contact WIW at (202) 347- 4973. Washington Independent Writers was founded as a non-profit organization in 1975 to provide writers, editors and journalists professional and social forums for the exchange of ideas and information. As the largest regional writers' organization in the country, it provides a variety of services and resources to its 2,000 members and plays an active role in issues that affect the independent writing profession. Information is available on the World Wide Web at or via e-mail at . The WIW office is located at 220 Woodward Building, 733 15th St. N.W., Washington, D.C. 20005. WIW also sponsors an Internet-based discussion and mailing list, WIW-L. To subscribe, send e-mail to , and in the body of the message, put the line "subscribe WIW-L your-first-name your- last-name" (without the quotation marks). ### -- Ken Reigner mailto:cbsmedia@earthlink.net Member, Board of Directors List Owner, WIW-L and WIW-JOBS Chairman, Technology Committee mailto:wiw-l-request@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu Washington Independent Writers mailto:wiw-jobs-request@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) As usual, Bob, you are remarkably eloquent, especially if you are sleep-deprived! :-) I agree with Bob (and Dr. Errington) that I would oppose any attempt at certification of Indexers through ASI or any other organization. As a member of a profession that does require rather strict licensing (law), I can testify to the inherent strengths and weaknesses of such a system. For the time being, I will spare you all the rant since it doesn't seem to be an issue of immediate concern, but suffice it to say that certification does little to weed out the incompetent or dishonest, as any casual perusal of any state's Bar disciplinary committee proceedings will tell you. I agree that attempting to impose certification standards would quickly become a bureaucratic nightmare and would ultimately do a grave disservice to both our profession and our customers. On a side note, I concur with Bob's observations about the nature of organizations v. individuals, and I wonder if perhaps part of the problem is that organizations are usually charged with developing their agendas and action plans based on "facts" and "hard data," and no one has ever figured out how to account for things like responsibility, kindness or simply doing the right thing on a spreadsheet. Just a thought. Back to work... -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:16:47 -0500 Reply-To: riofrancos@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Re: Cindex tab indents In-Reply-To: <19990204133747.NFQW29994@listserv.cuny.edu> Make sure you have the latest version of Cindex (I believe it's 1.06). Save As...Type .RTF, then click on Options... and select the Tab option. Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive New York, NY 10025 Tel: (212) 864-2121 -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU] On Behalf Of Betty Frizzell Sent: Thursday, February 04, 1999 1:57 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Cindex tab indents This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a new indexer working on my third index. The specifications = provided by the publisher require that I insert tabs and not paragraph = format indenting for subentries and sub-subentries under main entries. I = am using Cindex for Windows. If I use the Delimited Records under Save = as type, will this be the proper way to accomplish this? If not, how do = I do it? =20 Also, I am having trouble figuring out how to make the Roman numbered = locators appear before the Arabic numbered locators.=20 =20 Thanks in advance. =20 Betty Frizzell Frizzell Indexing Service frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am a new indexer working on my = third index.=20 The specifications provided by the publisher require that I insert tabs = and not=20 paragraph format indenting for subentries and sub-subentries under main = entries.=20 I am using Cindex for Windows. If I use the Delimited Records under Save = as=20 type, will this be the proper way to accomplish this?  If not, how = do I do=20 it?
 
Also, I am having trouble figuring = out how to=20 make the Roman numbered locators appear before the Arabic numbered = locators.=20
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Betty Frizzell
Frizzell Indexing = Service
frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BE4FC8.885CF700-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:23:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) On 2/4/1999 8:06 AM Wright, Sharon F. wrote (in part): >As usual, Bob, you are remarkably eloquent, especially if you are >sleep-deprived! :-) I will add this to the comments of Bob and Sharon. The cost of administering a certification program is not trivial. The cost of ASI membership would rise dramatically or, alternatively, the cost of testing would be borne by individuals being tested. And, if certification is to be effective, it must be repeated periodically as it is, for instance, in the court reporting profession. This would account for a recurring chunk of lost time each year or two when the indexer would have to take time out (and usually travel elsewhere) to be tested. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www/i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:01:37 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: Re: Cindex tab indents In-Reply-To: <199902041338.HAA20783@mailgw.flash.net> >Also, I am having trouble figuring out how to make the Roman numbered = >locators appear before the Arabic numbered locators.=20 >=20 Betty, I see the first part of your question has been answered. For the other, go to Tools>Sort>Locators and drag Roman Numerals to the top of the list; then double click on the left side of Roman Numerals so the plus sign appears. That should do it. Mike **************** Michael C. Rossa Allied Editorial Indexing, Copyediting, & Proofreading 972-267-2537 972-267-2538 fax rossa@flash.net **************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:19:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) Although I think ASI should have a certification program, to improve the quality of indexing, I know there are lots of valid objections that would have to be addressed. But I think we should at least study the issues before deciding not to do anything about it, or deciding to develop a program. I can't answer Bob's objection! One reason I left the corporate world to become self-employed is that I also see some sort of strange behavior patterns in large organizations that do not seem to apply to most individuals or small groups. Craig mentioned some valid points: > The cost of > administering a certification program is not trivial. The cost of ASI > membership would rise dramatically or, alternatively, the cost of testing > would be borne by individuals being tested. The programs I've seen require the individual to pay a fee. For example, the Board of Editors in the Life Sciences charges $25 for a study guide and $100 to take the test. (Caveat: I have only read the information on their Web site, www.wfi.fr/est/bels.html, and do not know how well this program works.) > And, if certification is to > be effective, it must be repeated periodically as it is, for instance, in > the court reporting profession. This would account for a recurring chunk > of lost time each year or two when the indexer would have to take time > out (and usually travel elsewhere) to be tested. I think this would have to be discussed. There are certification programs that do not require repeated certification. Also, a test is not necessarily the only mechanism. Alternatives include submission of an index or a portfolio of work. My two cents, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:16:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Maxine M. Okazaki" Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) If certification of indexers is indeed implemented (barring the obstacles such as cost, time involved, etc), it appears that there will be two groups of indexers in the US....those who are certified and those who are not. If only certified indexers are allowed to be listed in the Indexer Locator which is sent to publishers, then as Dr. Errington's stated, non-certified indexers will not have access to publishers. The non-certified indexers may then band together to start their own Indexing Society and circulate their own Indexer Locator to be sent to publishers. Many of these non-certified indexers will probably be experienced indexers. Such an outcome would not help the indexing profession, IMHO. I'm not for or against the certification. I just worry about the possible effects on the future of indexing. Just my two cents worth. Maxine M. Okazaki mokazaki@acpub.duke.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:27:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith Owen Richards Subject: Indexes as learning tools First of all, I'd like to thank those people who responded to my request posted earlier this week for a "virtual mentor." I had a very heartening response, and feel encouraged in my tentative efforts towards getting started as an indexer. In this case, I have a (somewhat) general theoretical question for the list at large. If anyone has any opinions on this subject, or could direct me towards articles, I'd be appreciative. Generally speaking, I'd like to know if there is any theory on indexes as guides to learning. I know that's the wrong way to put it (as, obviously, that _is_ one role of an index). Perhaps a practical example will make it clearer. I'm getting acquainted with some basic indexing principles by preparing an index for an introductory guide to philosophy. On p.24, there is a reference to Zeno. Initially, I went with main heading "Zeno" and subheading "as founder of Stoicism." Now, since this is the only reference to Zeno in the book, I'd have been left with an orphaned subheading (not, apparently, a good thing). Nonetheless, since the entry to Zeno is really only referring to him _as_ the founder of Stoicism (although in many more words than that), and not mentioning his "arrow" or anything, it seems to me that it is helpful for the reader (let's say a student in an intro to philosophy course) who is looking for information on Zeno to find, in the index, what the text thinks is important about him. Basically, they would then get the information twice, which might aid in memory (or re-memory, but I shouldn't get all Platonic here). So, simply put, should the entry be Zeno, 24 or Zeno, as founder of Stoicism, 24 Or is it a non-issue? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:57:52 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah Smith Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools In-Reply-To: <199902042130.PAA08401@sampo.creighton.edu> On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Keith Owen Richards told us that he's preparing an: > index for an introductory guide to philosophy. On p.24, there is a > reference to Zeno. Initially, I went with main heading "Zeno" and > subheading "as founder of Stoicism." Now, since this is the only reference > to Zeno in the book, I'd have been left with an orphaned subheading (not, > apparently, a good thing). Nonetheless, since the entry to Zeno is really > only referring to him _as_ the founder of Stoicism (although in many more > words than that), and not mentioning his "arrow" or anything, it seems to > me that it is helpful for the reader (let's say a student in an intro to > philosophy course) who is looking for information on Zeno to find, in the > index, what the text thinks is important about him. Basically, they would > then get the information twice, which might aid in memory (or re-memory, > but I shouldn't get all Platonic here). (Sorry to leave that all in, but I felt it was necessary) This is very much an issue, and I've seen it debated before. Should an index give information, or should it just point the way towards the information? I've seen it done both ways, and I look forward to hearing responses to this question from those on the list who are more experienced than I. -- Sarah Smith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:10:05 -0800 Reply-To: "akelso@xcert.com" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Kelso Organization: Xcert International Inc. Subject: Thesaurus Info Thanks Hello all, Many thanks to those of you who offered suggestions and encouragement in my question regarding preparing a thesaurus for technical manuals. The consensus seems to be that we are heading in the right direction, though at our level and scope we're at we may really be looking more at a master word list than a full blown thesaurus. A few people suggested some useful Web sites on the subject. Bob Richardson pointed me towards a wealth of information on thesauri at: http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk/index.htm Bill Menker offered a link to numerous examples at: http://www-cui.darmstadt.gmd.de/~lutes/thesauri.html Fred Brown mentioned an article that he wrote for Keywords (Nov/Dec) also available at: http://www.cyberus.ca/~fredb/art_02.htm Again, thank you to everyone who responded. I appreciate your help. Andrea Andrea Kelso Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street P.O. Box 10145, Pacific Centre tel: 1-604-640-6210 x 238 Vancouver, B.C., Canada V7Y 1C6 fax: 1-604-640-6220 http://www.xcert.com e-mail: akelso@xcert.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:24:21 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Keith Owen Richards proposed the index entry "Zeno, as founder of stoicism", and wrote: (heavily snipped) me that it is helpful for the reader (let's say a student in an intro to > philosophy course) who is looking for information on Zeno to find, in the > index, what the text thinks is important about him. Basically, they would > then get the information twice, I understand the temptation to add useful information to the index, but it is not the function of the index to duplicate the text. If the entry in the index leads only to the bald statement in the text that Zeno was the founder of stoicism, then it would be a frustrating waste of time for the reader to look up the page reference, only to find the exact information which is found in the index, and no more. With a number of entries like this, Keith is going to end up with something more resembling a glossary than an index. Hope this doesn't sound too harsh - only trying to help. Christine ************************************************************ Christine Shuttleworth, Indexing & Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB, UK e-mail: cshuttle@dircon.co.uk **************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:39:19 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bonnie Taylor Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools I'm interested in seeing the various opinions on this issue. I have felt at times like I am trying to add information to my indexes. I think it is the ghost of my law-school self that wants to turn everything into an outline! Bonnie Taylor << This is very much an issue, and I've seen it debated before. Should an index give information, or should it just point the way towards the information? I've seen it done both ways, and I look forward to hearing responses to this question from those on the list who are more experienced than I. >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:57:01 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) I don't find as great a descrepancy between human behavior outside and inside organizations as others do. Nevertheless, organizations do seem to provide incentives for acting contrary to one's conscience. Pressure from peers and supervisors is a powerful motivator. If the organization has profit as its goal, going against the grain, i.e., not being a team player, can land you in the unemployment line. In some political organizations it can land you in prison or the cemetery. Simple fear of ostracism is often a powerful concern for some. From what I saw of the certification process in another occupation, proponents are often motivated by hunger for status or fear of competition from those deemed less qualified, or both. I have no means of judging to what extent these motives afflict proponents in ASI and SI. Proponents always claim to be promoting quality. I always keep in mind the following question: Is certification being advocated by clients or by practitioners? Certification/licensure is demanded by clients when the consequences of incompetence are just unacceptable. A patient who dies because of the malpractice of a physician is not in a position to say: "Well, I'll never use that doc again!" In other words, clients are unwilling to accept the operation of the market as the final arbiter of quality. When certification is proposed by practitioners, a similar market aversion is exhibited. But why not just let bad indexers be weeded out by publishers? Are publishers themselves demanding certification credentials? Finally, I'd like to concur with those who expressed concern about the expense of certification. What is one getting for one's certification fee, if publishers themselves are indifferent as to whether their indexers are certified? Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:15:16 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools I agree with Christine that the proposed entry merely duplicates the text. A reader who wanted to know something about Zeno would have no alternative but to go to the single location. I have occasionally used expanded entries when I thought they were important, but I always ask: How important can this be if I need only one locator? But does this book really make no mention of Zeno's paradoxes? If it does, you might have the subject of another subentry. If not, I should think Zeno simpliciter should suffice. Nick Koenig Christine Shuttleworth wrote: > > Keith Owen Richards proposed the index entry "Zeno, as founder of stoicism", > and wrote: (heavily snipped) > > > me that it is helpful for the reader (let's say a student in an intro to > > philosophy course) who is looking for information on Zeno to find, in the > > index, what the text thinks is important about him. Basically, they would > > then get the information twice, > > I understand the temptation to add useful information to the index, but it > is not the function of the index to duplicate the text. > > Christine > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:43:23 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools In a message dated 99-02-04 16:30:56 EST, richardk@storm.simpson.edu writes: > So, simply put, should the entry be > > Zeno, 24 > > or > > Zeno, as founder of Stoicism, 24 > > Or is it a non-issue? In my view, an index is a pointer to information. It is not the place of the index to repeat information in the book. (Except in limited circumstances, see below.) In this case, for instance, if the only information provided in the text is that Zeno was the founder of Stoicism, then the index entry "Zeno, as founder of Stoicism, 24" does not point the reader to additional information. In fact why bother with a locator at all in that case? As a reader I expect to find additional information in the text. So my treatment would just be "Zeno, 24." On the other hand (as I remind you of Leise's first rule of indexing: There are no rules, only contexts."), I recently did an index for an auther who wanted the argument of the text carried into the index. Therefore, we did not just say: Annus Mirabilis subjects discussed in but actually listed the subjects, to show the breadth of material discussed in that essay. So my general guideline would be to use the index as a pointer. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:03:44 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: ASI-Conf......Roommate Wanted Hi everyone, I am planning to attend the ASI conf. in Indy in June. I am looking for a roommate to share the hotel costs. I have also written to Kara who is roommate coordinator for ASI conf. Surprisingly, I am the first person to contact her in this regard. Here is the general information. Name......Manjit K. Sahai Gender...Female Conf. Days.......I plan to attend conf. on June 9, 10 and 11. Basically, I will like to *check in* on June 8 and *check out* on June 12 morning. So I would be staying 4 nights in the hotel. General information........I am NON SMOKER. I *do not* drink. I HATE loud music. I sleep between 12.00-12.30AM, but I am quite flexible from sleeping point of view in hotels. *No offense* to anybody, but please no snorer. ONLY NON SMOKER FEMALE ROOMMATE WANTED. If anybody is interested being my roommate, please contact me offline. Thanks, Manjit K. Sahai Sterling, VA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:33:59 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Betty Frizzell Subject: Re: Cindex tab indents--THANKS This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE5086.1380CB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maro, Mike, Dave and Martha--=20 Thanks so much for your help! --Betty Frizzell Indexing Service frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE5086.1380CB00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maro, Mike, Dave and Martha-- =
 
       = Thanks so=20 much for your help!
 
--Betty
 
Frizzell Indexing = Service
frizzell@wolfenet.com ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE5086.1380CB00-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:47:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Richard wrote: << So, simply put, should the entry be > > Zeno, 24 > > or > > Zeno, as founder of Stoicism, 24 > > Or is it a non-issue? >> I agree with Fred and others that the index should point to information, not repeat it. Don't rewrite the book in the index. This is also related to Do Mi's Second Rule: Create subentries as needed to break down a main heading, not for intrinsic value. In other words, it's very rare for a heading to need a single subentry, because a heading with one page reference does not need to be broken down. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:01:16 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kay Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools I also agree with DoMi and Fred. It is tempting to add or adjust information in the index beyond the author's original scope, particularly if the author has missed an obvious connection or it is a poorly written/edited piece. However, it's simply not our job to explain the text in the index. I will use cross references to attempt to direct the reader, or offer terms that the author may not have chosen to use. Other than that, I grit my teeth and resist. Kay Schlembach ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:31:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools I concur with what's been said so far: I would include Zeno, and the page number. I figure that if someone is interested in Zeno, he/she can look up the reference. OTOH, if I had (for ex.) a city and one page locator, I would include a qualifier: Lafayette (IN), indexers in, 24. I justify the difference by thinking that a person is a far more limited subject and that people looking for that person are likely to look up the page number with or without that qualifier (as a Stoic) but a city is a far broader topic and people may be pickier about what they look up. Thus, someone interested in hospitals in Lafayette probably won't look up the above entry (unless of course they don't know what indexers are). BTW, I work on scholarly books. Anyone else approach this the same? differently? Margie Towery Towery Indexing Service ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:25:54 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK (Partly off-topic) To Everyone: Certification poses too many problems for implementation. 1. Who does the certifying and why them? 2. Who designs the test, who has a say in it, and why them? 3. Why get recertified and how often, who decides and why them? 4. What about all the different styles of certification? What if mine does match the style in the test? Am I wrong and you right? Are we to have a society of haves and have nots? Is this what we want? 5. Is this test to cover hardcopy indexing, or must it include embedded indexing, web indexing, indexing for CD-ROMs and more? Who decides this and why them? If you add certification as a stipulation for being a member, you change the entire reason for the association. I, for one, will opt out. That is not why I came on board. Robert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:33:01 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mark Miller Subject: Laurence Errington's point It seems to me very important that the Society of Indexers should promote good standards, which it at present does through initial training, workshops, conferences, publications, Registration, etc. It seems to me equally important that it should not try to act as a guardian of standards; this tends to involve an enormously disproportionate amount of time, money and effort being spent on a few grey areas, with little if any actual benefit resulting, and the possibility of harm being done. It also seems to me that Indexers Available should list just that - available indexers, the ones who are serious enough to join the Society, draft an entry and pay for inclusion. Publishers can readily see from each entry the training, qualifications, length and type of experience of each listed indexer. After that it's between the indexer and the publisher. As far as incompetence in indexing goes, I don't think much of that comes from listed indexers. There is a much more important job to be done educating and persuading authors and publishers to have their indexes done by professional indexers; but it's extremely difficult (impossible?) to do more than chip away at this a little bit at a time. Mark Miller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:52:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William G Meisheid Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools - long response and a question In-Reply-To: <199902051326.IAA03913@www.honza.com> I would like to throw out an idea, albeit a heretical idea, for discussion. If one believes that there are places where indexes should go beyond terse terminology (Zeno alone, when the reference speaks about him as the founder of stoicism) where does that put a person? re: However, it's simply not our job to explain the text in the index. How about qualify the text? How about saving useless looking up? If the only reference to Zeno in the book is as founder of Stoicism aren't we forcing someone to mine the text to find out the why Zeno is referenced? While this terseness of approach and limited qualification may be historical in book indexing, I feel it creates a problem online. Research shows how frustrated people get when they are forced to "mine" the information to find what they are looking for or go to something to find out what it is about. One wonders if this paradigm of terseness has less to do with information access (to me the real purpose of an index) and more with historical limitations imposed on space for printed indexes. Don't some indexes require a different approach? Do you index help systems the same way you would index a textbook on Advanced Cellular Structures? As a user of indexes, I have long felt that indexes could, and often should, be instructive and learning tools. When I scan the indexes in books on Dynamic HTML in Borders, I find it frustrating to have to mine the relatively unqualified entries to see if the book deals with what I want to know. In addition, if I am unfamiliar with a subject, I often use the index to get a feel for the subject matter and concepts being dealt with. This is especially critical online since the ability to thumb through the book doesn't exist. I understand that expanding the index (I tend to call this expanded approach an annotated index) creates considerably more work but then aren't we all (writers, information designers, indexers) at the service of the reader/user? Isn't our primary job to help them find information? Doesn't expanding the scope of the index help that task? Consider how we have denigrated Full Text Search and Natural Language Queries as replacements for indexing and balance the problems of those approaches with what I am discussing. Are all we doing is removing the irrelevant hits? Shouldn't we instead be trying to help the reader/user make an informed decision about where they want to go? Just a few thoughts from the rim... ________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:05:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: Laurence Errington's point To Everyone: I agree with Laurence. You don't need to certify ASI indexers. If the indexer does poor work, the marketplace will weed him/her out. After all, why would a publisher use an indexer a second time if he/she could not do the job properly the first time? Robert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:10:42 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Time4faith@AOL.COM Subject: How to unsubscribe? Can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this list? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:28:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe? Is it something we said? At 10:10 AM 2/5/99 EST, you wrote: >Can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this list? Thanks > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:19:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: NANCY WILLIAMSON Subject: SV: Hill says yes: go ahead and publish SIG/CR CFP!!!!! Forwarded to INDEX-L at the request of Hanne Albrechtsen Nancy Williamson ------ Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: Albrechtsen Hanne > > To: "'ejacob@indiana.edu'" , > > "'fidelr@u.washington.edu'" > , > > "'efthimis@u.washington.edu'" > , > > "'beghtol@fis.utoronto.ca'" > , > > "'schwartz@panix.com'" , > > "'padmini@uma.info-science.uiowa.edu'" > > , > > "'cjorgens@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu'" > , > > "'solomon@ils.unc.edu'" , > "'upriss@indiana.edu'" > > , > "'psmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu'" > > , "'jem@db.dk'" > , > > "'acarlyle@u.washington.edu'" > > > Subject: Hill says yes: go ahead and publish SIG/CR CFP!!!!! > > Date sent: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:40:30 -0000 > > > Hi all! > > > > Good news from here! Dick Hill from ASIS says okay to publish the > CFP as > > is!!!!! Now I would really appreciate any ideas from you about where > to > > publish the call. > > > > Here are some of ours from here: > > > > LIS-L > > ISKO-L > > Colis-L (via Peter Ingwersen) > > ASIS-L > > > > The journal Knowledge Organization; JASIS; JDoc (???) > > > > We will create a special list here of people who are interested in > the > > workshop so that we can keep them posted. We already got some mails > from > > colleagues in the US who would like to submit. Fingers crossed! > > > > All the best > > Hanne > > > > Hanne Albrechtsen > > Associate Professor, IT Consultant > > Royal School of Information and Library Science > > Birketinget 6 > > DK-2300 Copenhagen S > > Denmark > > phone: +45 32 58 60 66 > > fax: +45 32 84 02 01 > > e-mail: hal@db.dk > > http://www.db.dk/kon/hal/halhome_uk.htm > > > > > > > ---------- > > > Fra: Richard Hill[SMTP:rhill@asis.org] > > > Sendt: 3. februar 1999 13:30 > > > Til: Albrechtsen Hanne > > > Emne: Re: SV: ASIS SIG/CR workshop > > > > > > Go ahead and publish/post. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > At 08:15 AM 2/3/99 -0000, you wrote: > > > >Does that mean that it is okay for SIG/CR to publish the CFP now > (we > > > >need to do that ASAP)? > > > >Best wishes > > > >Hanne > > > > > > > >> ---------- > > > >> Fra: Richard Hill[SMTP:rhill@asis.org] > > > >> Sendt: 2. februar 1999 16:52 > > > >> Til: Albrechtsen Hanne > > > >> Emne: Re: ASIS SIG/CR workshop > > > >> > > > >> I got it and will be using it as soon as I get through the push > to > > > get > > > >> Mid > > > >> Year publicity out the door. > > > >> > > > >> Dick > > > >> > > > >> At 10:44 AM 2/2/99 -0000, you wrote: > > > >> >Dick: > > > >> > > > > >> >Did you get this message that I sent you last week? We have > had > > > some > > > >> bad > > > >> >"Internet-weather" here last week, so maybe it didn't reach > you. > > > >> > > > > >> >Would you let me know if ASIS can accept our CFP - we would > like > > > to > > > >> >publish it soon. > > > >> > > > > >> >Best wishes > > > >> >Hanne > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >Hanne Albrechtsen > > > >> >Associate Professor, IT Consultant > > > >> >Royal School of Information and Library Science > > > >> >Birketinget 6 > > > >> >DK-2300 Copenhagen S > > > >> >Denmark > > > >> >phone: +45 32 58 60 66 > > > >> >fax: +45 32 84 02 01 > > > >> >e-mail: hal@db.dk > > > >> >http://www.db.dk/kon/hal/halhome_uk.htm > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >> ---------- > > > >> >> Fra: Albrechtsen Hanne > > > >> >> Sendt: 29. januar 1999 12:25 > > > >> >> Til: 'Richard Hill' > > > >> >> Cc: 'ejacob@indiana.edu'; 'fidelr@u.washington.edu'; > > > >> >> 'efthimis@u.washington.edu'; 'beghtol@fis.utoronto.ca'; > > > >> >> 'schwartz@panix.com'; 'padmini@uma.info-science.uiowa.edu'; > > > >> >> 'cjorgens@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu'; 'solomon@ils.unc.edu'; > > > >> >> 'upriss@indiana.edu'; 'psmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu'; > > > >> 'jem@db.dk'; > > > >> >> 'acarlyle@u.washington.edu' > > > >> >> Emne: ASIS SIG/CR workshop > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Dick: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Below is our suggestion for the CFP for the ASIS SIG/CR > workshop > > > - > > > >> we > > > >> >> incorporated suggestions from the members of SIG/CR to the > text, > > > in > > > >> >> particular shortening the description of submission > procedure. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> You will notice that the workshop is suggested to take place > on > > > >> Sunday > > > >> >> 31 October from 8:30 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. An overwhelming > > > majority > > > >> >> among SIG/CR's members prefer Sunday for the workshop. It > has > > > been > > > >> >> mentioned, that for some members, coming to the workshop on > > > >> Saturday > > > >> >> will not be possible. For instance, overseas members > (Europe, > > > Asia > > > >> >> etc.) will be unable to attend. The ASIS SIG/CR workshop is > a > > > >> unique > > > >> >> international event - international workshops on > classification > > > >> >> research are rare. We also believe that having the workshop > on > > > >> Sunday > > > >> >> will eventually attract more attendants to the ASIS Annual > > > Meeting > > > >> >> itself. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> I am looking very much forward to hearing from you! > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Best wishes > > > >> >> Hanne > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Hanne Albrechtsen > > > >> >> Associate Professor, IT Consultant > > > >> >> Royal School of Information and Library Science > > > >> >> Birketinget 6 > > > >> >> DK-2300 Copenhagen S > > > >> >> Denmark > > > >> >> phone: +45 32 58 60 66 > > > >> >> fax: +45 32 84 02 01 > > > >> >> e-mail: hal@db.dk > > > >> >> http://www.db.dk/kon/hal/halhome_uk.htm > > > >> >> > > > >> >> -------- > > > >> >> Call for Participation > > > >> >> 10th ASIS SIG/CR > > > >> >> Classification Research Workshop > > > >> >> An Interdisciplinary Meeting > > > >> >> > > > >> >> J.W. Marriott Hotel > > > >> >> Washington, D.C > > > >> >> United States > > > >> >> Sunday October 31, 1999 > > > >> >> 8:30 a.m. - 5:00 p.m. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> The American Society for Information Science Special > Interest > > > Group > > > >> on > > > >> >> Classification Research (ASIS SIG/CR) invites submissions > for > > > the > > > >> 10th > > > >> >> ASIS > > > >> >> Classification Research Workshop to be held at the 62nd > Annual > > > >> Meeting > > > >> >> of > > > >> >> ASIS, November 1-4, 1999 in Washington, D.C. The workshop > will > > > be > > > >> >> held on > > > >> >> Sunday, October 31, 1999, from 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. at the > > > J.W. > > > >> >> Marriott Hotel. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> SCOPE > > > >> >> > > > >> >> The ASIS SIG/CR Classification Research Workshop is designed > to > > > >> >> promote the exchange of ideas among active researchers with > > > >> interests > > > >> >> in all aspects of classification theory and application > > > including > > > >> >> creation, development, management, representation, display, > > > >> comparison > > > >> >> and compatibility. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> TOPICS > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Topics suitable for presentation papers include, but are not > > > >> limited > > > >> >> to: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Analysis and explication of classification scheme(s) > > > >> >> Application in information retrieval and expert > systems > > > >> >> Automated document classification > > > >> >> Automated scheme generation > > > >> >> Bibliographic classifications in new environments > > > >> >> Classification algorithms > > > >> >> Classification structures > > > >> >> Cognitive representations > > > >> >> Comparison of classification schemes > > > >> >> Compatibility across classification schemes > > > >> >> Concept acquisition > > > >> >> Data structures for classification schemes > > > >> >> Image classification > > > >> >> Inheritance and subsumption > > > >> >> Interfaces for display of classification schemes > > > >> >> Knowledge management > > > >> >> Knowledge representation schemes > > > >> >> Mathematical techniques for developing semantic > classes > > > >> >> Natural language understanding > > > >> >> Procedural knowledge in classification schemes > > > >> >> Programming languages for classification schemes > > > >> >> Reasoning with classification schemes > > > >> >> Relations and their properties > > > >> >> Semantic classes > > > >> >> Social aspects of classification > > > >> >> Software for management of classification schemes > > > >> >> Subject analysis > > > >> >> Terminology > > > >> >> Thesaurus construction > > > >> >> User-based classification strategies > > > >> >> Warrant for concepts in classification schemes > > > >> >> WEB organization/indexing/metadata > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> SUBMISSIONS > > > >> >> > > > >> >> The Classification Research Workshop welcomes submissions > from > > > >> various > > > >> >> disciplines. Those interested in participating are invited > to > > > >> submit > > > >> >> a full-length research paper for presentation at the > workshop. > > > >> >> Submissions may include a background paper as an attachment. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> To submit a paper, please send: > > > >> >> 1. the title and a 2-3 page, single-spaced extended > > > abstract, and > > > >> >> 2. a brief, one-page statement describing the research > > > interests of > > > >> >> the submitter and the reason for participating in the > workshop. > > > >> >> to the workshop chair by April 5, 1999 > > > >> >> 3. name(s), affiliation(s), address(es), fax, phone, e-mail > of > > > >> >> submitting author(s) > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Submitted abstracts will be refereed for acceptance. > Authors of > > > >> >> accepted abstracts will be asked to submit a full version of > the > > > >> paper > > > >> >> which will also be refereed for inclusion in the workshop > > > >> proceedings. > > > >> >> Authors of full research papers are expected to attend the > > > >> workshop. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> All accepted papers will be published in the preliminary > > > workshop > > > >> >> proceedings that is mailed to early registrants prior to the > > > >> workshop. > > > >> >> Following the workshop, authors of full papers will be given > the > > > >> >> opportunity to revise their papers for final publication. > The > > > >> papers > > > >> >> will be published in: > > > >> >> Advances in Classification Research Vol. 10: > > > >> >> Proceedings of the 10th ASIS SIG/CR Classification Research > > > >> Workshop. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Previous proceedings have been published as Volumes 1 > through 9 > > > of > > > >> >> Advances in Classification Research: Proceedings of the 9th > ASIS > > > >> >> SIG/CR Classification Research Workshop and are available > from > > > the > > > >> >> publisher: > > > >> >> Information Today, Inc., 143 Old Marlton Pike, Medford, NJ > > > 08055. > > > >> >> Tel: 609-654-6266. URL: http://www.infotoday.com > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Electronic submissions are strongly encouraged. Submissions > of > > > >> >> abstracts should be sent to CR@DB.DK as an attachment to an > > > e-mail. > > > >> >> The attached file should be in the RTF format and titled > with > > > the > > > >> last > > > >> >> name of the submitting author(s). Abstracts should be in > the > > > hands > > > >> of > > > >> >> the workshop chair no later than April 5, 1999. If > electronic > > > >> >> submission is not possible two paper copies should be sent > to > > > the > > > >> >> address below. Confirmation of receipt of a submission will > be > > > >> sent > > > >> >> via e-mail. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Send submissions to: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Hanne Albrechtsen > > > >> >> Royal School of Library and Information Science > > > >> >> Birketinget 6 > > > >> >> DK-2300 Copenhagen S > > > >> >> DENMARK > > > >> >> Phone: +45 32 58 60 66 > > > >> >> Fax: +45 32 84 02 01 > > > >> >> > > > >> >> DEADLINES > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Schedule for submission of FULL-LENGTH RESEARCH PAPERS: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> April 5, 1999 > > > >> >> 1) Extended abstract in English, single-spaced and 2 to 3 > pages > > > in > > > >> >> length should be received by the workshop chair for > refereeing > > > by > > > >> the > > > >> >> program committee. The abstract should follow the APA > Manual of > > > >> Style > > > >> >> (4th ed., 1994). > > > >> >> 2) A brief, one-page statement describing the research > > > >> interests of > > > >> >> the submitting author(s) and the reason for wanting to > > > participate > > > >> in > > > >> >> the workshop > > > >> >> 3) Name(s), affiliation(s), address(es), fax, phone, e-mail > of > > > >> >> submitting author(s) > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> May 13, 1999. > > > >> >> Notification of acceptance or rejection provided to > submitters. > > > >> >> Instructions for full papers will be provided at this time. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> June 25, 1999. > > > >> >> Full papers should be received by the workshop chair for > > > refereeing > > > >> by > > > >> >> the program committee. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> August 8, 1999. > > > >> >> Refereed papers are returned to authors with comments of > > > referees > > > >> for > > > >> >> final revision. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Sept. 1, 1999. > > > >> >> Final copies of full research papers in camera-ready > condition > > > are > > > >> to > > > >> >> be in the hands of the workshop chair for publication in the > > > >> workshop > > > >> >> proceedings. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> REGISTRATION > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Early registration fees for WORKSHOP PARTICIPANTS are: > > > >> >> $35.00 for SIG/CR members; $35.00 for presenters of full > > > papers; > > > >> >> $45.00 for participants who are members of ASIS; and $60.00 > for > > > >> >> participants who are not members of ASIS. Because the > workshop > > > is > > > >> >> separate from the ASIS Annual Meeting, an additional > > > registration > > > >> fee > > > >> >> is required for the Annual Meeting. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> ADDITIONAL INFORMATION > > > >> >> Access http://newarkwww.rutgers.edu/asis.sigcr/crwork.shtml > or > > > >> >> contact the workshop chair via email at hal@db.dk > > > >> >> > > > >> >> WORKSHOP ORGANIZERS > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Workshop Chair > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Hanne Albrechtsen, Royal School of Library and > > > Information > > > >> >> Science > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Program Committee > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Clare Beghtol, University of Toronto > > > >> >> Allyson Carlyle, University of Washington > > > >> >> Efthimis N. Efthimiadis, University of Washington > > > >> >> Raya Fidel, University of Washington > > > >> >> Elin Jacob, Indiana University > > > >> >> Corinne Jorgensen, University of Buffalo > > > >> >> Jens-Erik Mai, Royal School of Library and Information > Science > > > >> >> Uta Priss, Indiana University > > > >> >> Ray Schwartz, New Jersey Institute of Technology > > > >> >> Phil Smith, Ohio State University > > > >> >> Paul Solomon, University of North Carolina > > > >> >> Padmini Srinivasan, University of Iowa > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> American Society for Information Science > > > >> 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 > > > >> Silver Spring, MD 20910 > > > >> (301) 495-0900 FAX (301) 495-0810 > > > >> http://www.asis.org > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > American Society for Information Science > > > 8720 Georgia Avenue, Suite 501 > > > Silver Spring, MD 20910 > > > (301) 495-0900 FAX (301) 495-0810 > > > http://www.asis.org > > > > > > Clare Beghtol > Associate Professor > Faculty of Information Studies > University of Toronto > 140 St. George St. > Toronto, Ontario M5S 3G6 > Canada > voice: (416) 978-8852 > fax: (416) 971-1399 > Clare Beghtol voice: (416) 978-8852 fax: (416) 971-1399 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:17:40 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools In a message dated 99-02-04 16:30:58 EST, you write: << So, simply put, should the entry be Zeno, 24 or Zeno, as founder of Stoicism, 24 Or is it a non-issue? >> To me it is a non-issue. Both versions take up only one line, but the second gives concrete info and I vote for it. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:22:26 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Worden Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools In a message dated 99-02-04 16:59:47 EST, you write: Re Zwno, << Should an index give information, or should it just point the way towards the information? >> As long as the info given in the index is part of the author's text or clarifies terms which look the same but have different meanings, doing it seems reasonable because it saves the reader time. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:05:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Margie wrote: << OTOH, if I had (for ex.) a city and one page locator, I would include a qualifier: Lafayette (IN), indexers in, 24. I justify the difference by thinking that a person is a far more limited subject and that people looking for that person are likely to look up the page number with or without that qualifier (as a Stoic) but a city is a far broader topic and people may be pickier about what they look up. Thus, someone interested in hospitals in Lafayette probably won't look up the above entry (unless of course they don't know what indexers are). BTW, I work on scholarly books. Anyone else approach this the same? differently?>> Differently, Margie (though I'm not saying you're doing a bad thing). I work on scholarly books and textbooks, and I almost never qualify a simple entry--the only exception for me is when the main heading by itself would be harmfully ambiguous. For instance, in a textbook called Your College Experience, which had a wide range of subjects, I had a heading Association, as memory aid, since I didn't think Association by itself was specific enough. But in any heading where the meaning is clear, I don't add a qualifier. I figure that if the reader is looking up a particular city--if that's their preferred access point--then my job is to tell them where to find that city. If they were looking for hospitals, I think they'd look under hospitals. So there you have two opinions from experienced indexers! Isn't it nice that this is a smorgasbord, not a rule book? Just make sure that the choices you make can be justified from the point of view of serving the reader. By the way, I want to make sure beginners understand that Margie and I are both (I presume) talking not about main headings with one subheading, like this: Association as memory aid, 36 but modified headings, like this: Association, as memory aid, 36. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:04:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Knoeller Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe? Could someone please forward subscriber info to me too? Thanks, Julie At 10:28 AM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >Is it something we said? > >At 10:10 AM 2/5/99 EST, you wrote: >>Can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this list? Thanks >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:02:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Alex O. Trotter" Subject: index without page numbers I've been given an index assignment of a type I haven't encountered before -- the index has already been done by the author, but there are no page numbers! Apparently they want me to fill them in. My inclination is to simply do the whole thing over from scratch, which I think would probably be easier than to key in all the material that was put there by the author, and then try to hunt it all down in the text. What would you do? AT ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: index without page numbers Oh, man, did somebody really miss the point! I'm laughing with you, Alex... really! :-) I've actually had that done to me, too! Yes, your first instinct is correct-- it would be much easier to do the index from scratch than to go back and put the page numbers into an existing index, unless you have the book in some sort of electronically searchable format in a program with a really good search/find feature. If the index is really near and dear to the author, keep it and compare it to yours when you're done to make sure that you've picked up the same things he did, but other than that, toss it. As far as you can. -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:21:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith Owen Richards Subject: indexes as learning tools (again) Hmmm...my head is reeling from the variety of responses to my earlier question. Thanks for the input. Do Mi wrote: "By the way, I want to make sure beginners understand that Margie and I are both (I presume) talking not about main headings with one subheading, like this: Association as memory aid, 36 but modified headings, like this: Association, as memory aid, 36." This was how I ran into the problem initially. I put in a main heading for "Zeno", first subheading "as founder of Stoicism," thinking that other subheadings would present themselves. They didn't, so when I was editing the index I had an orphaned subheading which I promoted to the main heading. Then I started thinking of the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of this. I suppose that underlying all of this is a question of consistency. I do this for Zeno, I should do it for all similar entries - for instance Thales, astronomy and philosophy of, 19 And then where does it end? It seems, though, that there may be _something_ to be said for William Meisheid's argument that readers may get grumpy being "forced to "mine" the information." However, to all those (and it's the majority) who contend that the entry should just read "Zeno," your points are well taken. I'm not in the habit of ignoring well-meaning advice, so I guess I'll consider the question answered for my purposes and continue to learn more from the debate. I think once I begin to develop more of a sense of what's appropriate for a particular _audience_ of a book, the question will make a bit more sense. Thanks all ------------------------------------------------------------- Keith O. Richards richardk@storm.simpson.edu "L'avenir dure longtemps" L. Althusser ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: index without page numbers In-Reply-To: <199902051317.rbmddo.7g3.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 01:02 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >I've been given an index assignment of a type I haven't encountered before >-- the index has already been done by the author, but there are no page >numbers! Apparently they want me to fill them in. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Whew! Thank you. I'm OK now. Sorry, this gave me flashbacks to an identical project: a 1,000 page book for which the author had created a 50-page index. All he wanted was the page numbers assigned. I pointed out that there were basically only two ways to do that: 1. Start on page 1 of the book and examine every one of the approximately 3,000 index entries to see if it occurred on that page. Repeat 1,000 times. 2. Start on index entry 1 and exam each page of the book to determine where the entry is found. Repeat 3,000 times. Nevertheless, that's what he wanted. A colleague accepted the job and it was even worse than expected. The author had apparently used some kind of search feature in his word processor to generate words for the index. The entire index was a pretty much random collection of words with no contextual analysis. If you really want to do this, charge by the hour. Charge a lot. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:35:35 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: indexes as learning tools (again) As I new indexer who just completed my first one to be printed, I have found this discussion most interesting and informative. I looked over my index and found at least three questionable entries. I will now examine my single headings more closely before I add additional information. For example, I had bullfight, Bergh's reaction to, 126 I now see that that should have been a subheading under Bergh and should not have even been a main heading. I had another Studor, Marilyn, testifies at trial, 287 I thought I needed the extra information since this is not a well-known person and would be looked up only if someone is interested in the trial testimony. However, there were many other accesses to the trial in the index, and so perhaps just her name would have been sufficient. The same was true of the entry Calhoun, Nehemiah (Capt.), cited for turtle abuse 114-15 The only reason one would look up Calhoun is in connection with the famous turtle case. I would hate to break Do Mi's "second rule" since I was fortunate to take her "Facing the Text" workshop in which she explained this. (I may have broken your "first rule," Do Mi, since I had such a quick deadline.) At any rate this discussion has been beneficial to me and to many others I am sure. Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing Riverside, CA jeanmidd@prodigy.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:02:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: index without page numbers In-Reply-To: <199902051840.NAA15409@carriage.chesco.com> At 01:39 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >At 01:02 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >>I've been given an index assignment of a type I haven't encountered before >>-- the index has already been done by the author, but there are no page >>numbers! Apparently they want me to fill them in. > >HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! > > > >Whew! Thank you. I'm OK now. > >Sorry, this gave me flashbacks to an identical project: a 1,000 page book >for which the author had created a 50-page index. All he wanted was the >page numbers assigned. > >I pointed out that there were basically only two ways to do that: [snip] I am soooo grateful for your comments !! I spent part of yesterday in a meeting with employees of an large NYC bank. They are responsible for the production of a 300+ page employee benefits manual & need an index. I felt like I was talking to a brick wall trying to explain the indexing process. Surely I could begin my work now (when they know they still have major edits to make) Of course it would save time if I had a list of terms & then "let the computer search, find those terms & create the index." This is in spite of the fact that I was asked to do a similar job about 5 years ago for their predecessor (pre bank mergers) & I got this job because they liked what I had produced before. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:03:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Indexes as learning tools (long) To qualify or not to qualify: therein lies the question. This thread defines the predicament I was in last summer. I preferred (read wanted) to use the single page number with no qualifications: Nile River, 7 My editor insisted that I use the following entry: Nile River, Moses found in, 7 The reference was to several paragraphs about Moses being found in the Nile. Nothing else. And the Nile was not mentioned elsewhere in the book. However, if it had been mentioned elsewhere, following the example I was given by the press, the entries would have looked like this: Nile River Moses found in, 7 annual flooding of, 9 To me, it makes more sense just to limit the entry thusly: Nile River, 7, 9 But the editor always has the final say. I was able to compromise in some instances where it was totally impossible to follow the guidelines she sent, but I left the Nile River entry with the qualifier. In Margie's example: >OTOH, if I had (for ex.) a city and one page locator, I would include a >qualifier: Lafayette (IN), indexers in, 24. What would you do if there were two locators, the sample you give plus a discussion of hospitals on page 53? Would your entry now read Lafayette (IN), 24, 53 or Lafayette (IN) hospitals, 53 indexers, 24 Are qualifiers of more value in entries with multiple locators? Or do they start to become subheads? This seems to be a chicken and egg problem. Do subheads only become important when there are long strings of locators (which means that the main heading comes first with the subhead breakout later) or to provide additional and narrowing access points for the index user which makes them part of the process of determining the main heading itself? Finally, I just completed an index in which people were identified (again, press style) in parenthetical phrases: Kaczynski, Ted, 18 Kahl, Gordon (Patriot), 56-57, 237-38, 338(10,n.1) Kahoe, E. Michael (FBI agent), 239 I was tempted to use Kaczynski, Ted (Unabomber), 18 but didn't. I decided to leave some titles out since it seemed unfair to lump small players together with major criminals all within the title category (Patriot). In this instance Kaczynski fell within the author's rubrick "Patriot". Determining what title to use in some of the cases was difficult since there were undercover agents and informants (here a tempting possibility presented itself --Doe, John (Snitch), 10-13 -- but I resisted) as well as convicted felons. For instance, I used the title (social worker) for the director of a Planned Parenthood office. The editor and I were especially concerned with keeping the book within their press guidelines while at the same time not making it a "hit list" for interested parties unkown (or at least not without some additinal research on their part!). Lillian ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: index without page numbers In-Reply-To: <199902051341.rbmeqp.8jk.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 01:39 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: > >If you really want to do this, charge by the hour. Charge a lot. Follow the lead of the plumber who quoted his rates to the homeowner thusly: I'll fix your leak for $50 per hour. If you watch, it's $75 per hour. If you help, it's $100. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:46:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mschwilk@AOL.COM Subject: (no subject) SIGN OFF ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:05:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A Note on Subheadings All - Lillian Ashworth, in a recent posting, discussed the "subheadings vs. no subheadings" dilemma. I would like to make two comments about this. She wrote: >I preferred (read wanted) to use the single page number with no qualifications > Nile River, 7 >My editor insisted that I use the following entry: > Nile River, Moses found in, 7 >The reference was to several paragraphs about Moses being found in the Nile. >Nothing else. And the Nile was not mentioned elsewhere in the book. >However, if it had been mentioned elsewhere, following the example I was >given by the press, the entries would have looked like this: > Nile River > Moses found in, 7 > annual flooding of, 9 >To me, it makes more sense just to limit the entry thusly: > Nile River, 7, 9 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Comment #1: In the first example, Lillian did not say if there was another main entry for "Moses". If there was, then the single "Nile" locator might have been adequate. Comment #2: In my view, the significant implictions of this thread have not been addressed, except in Bill Meisheid's thoughtful posting. It seems to me that we are losing sight of our primary function as indexers: to act as the reader's ombudsmen (ombudspersons?). The technical details of subheading structure are relevant, to be sure, and it is not my intention to denigrate the careful and detailed posts on this matter. However, these postings make clear (at least to me and evidently to Bill Meisheid) the basic dilemma of how best to serve the reader's interests while accurately reflecting the text and, of course, bowing (however reluctantly) to editorial imperatives. The operative item in Lillian's posting is this: > To me, it makes more sense just to limit the entry thusly: > Nile River, 7, 9 and it is with this that I respectfully disagree. Please keep in mind, though, that I am not considering space constraints or editorial instructions. Reality (unfortunately) is reality. My disagreement is with a point of view. I ask you to put yourselves in the place of a reader who opens the index. That person hasn't a clue as to the conceptual orientation of the index, or any idea of the structure and wording of the headings. From the user's point of view, the index simply is a free vocabulary. Hold your fire! I know that the vocabulary really isn't free, and that is it constrained by the text and by editorial instructions. But all this is transparent to the reader who is turning to the back of the book, especially an unread book on a bookseller's shelf. And despite editorial ....err.....guidance, the indexer does have substantial discretionary power in selecting terms. After all, the first article of the Canon of Indexing is: Indexing is a Creative Act! Now, I cheerfully bow to the arcane wisdom (no, let's say arcane impenatrability) of behavioral psychologists. but I do have some experience in using indexes. It seems to me that addressing an index is not unlike the celebrated "reference question interview" so beloved of reference librarians. Having been a practising librarian for many years (odd for an electrical engineer, I admit), I soon learned that engineers would come into the Technical Information Center and ask me to search for a specific, narrrowly- framed, bit of information. As I queried them about this, it often became obvious that the requestor simply had made a stab at what he (she) thought was wanted. But as the interview developed, the search parameters (doesn't that sound wonderfully technical?) were expanded and refined, and the final search was based on a set of criteria entirely different from those with which we started. The point here is that in addressing a printed index there is no reference librarian to guide the reader and refine the query. The reader simply takes a stab at it, and hopes he/she will find something in the index (and therefore in the text). If there is to be any reader assistance it must reside in the structure and content of the index. Admittedly one must thread a fine line between terse and prolix (astonishingly, I sometimes fail in this!) But in indexing I always will tend to err on the side of explication. Consider this: A reader, using an index for a book on certain aspects of military history, is looking for information on the Mexican War experiences of General Douglas MacArthur. Under the heading "MacArthur, General Douglas", the user finds three undifferentiated locators (well within conventional guidelines). So he/she rabbit-hunts through the text. After turning to the first page, and not finding what is wanted, the reader turns to the second and third pages, with increasing frustration. The point here is that the information is not in the text, and the search is doomed to failure. But the index gives no hint of this, and the reader follows a will-o-the-wisp, only to end defeated. This business of balancing an index is, to me, a non-trivial dilemma. An infinitely--detailed index is too large to be practicable, and a needlesly terse index is at least as frustrating to the reader as it is helpful. I believe that physicians take an oath that says, in part: "First, do no harm". I know of no corresponding code of ethics for indexers, but were one to be framed, it surely should include the injunction: "First, be helpful to the reader". Just a thought. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:57:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: index without page numbers Richard Evans Wrote: >> >>Sorry, this gave me flashbacks to an identical project: a 1,000 page book >>for which the author had created a 50-page index. All he wanted was the >>page numbers assigned..... >[snip] And Nancy Guenther chimed in: >I am soooo grateful for your comments !! I spent part of yesterday in a >meeting with employees of an large NYC bank. They are responsible for the >production of a 300+ page employee benefits manual & need an index. > >I felt like I was talking to a brick wall trying to explain the indexing >process. ... >Nancy Guenther Sorry for this message within a message within a bottle, or something like that. But it allows me to respond to two great comments in the same post. Like Dick said, you must take the word of experienced indexers that this would be like walking straight ahead on a trail after reading a sign "quicksand ahead". However I would go way past his comments. I wouldn't do this for a $1000 an hour. This is a one-way ticket to the loony-bin. Here's how it would go. You manage to wade all the way through the text, exercising a bizarre non-standard indexing method where every possibly indexable term would need to be compared to a list of terms. Unless you could commit every one of the index entries to photographic memory and thus had the gift of instant recognition, you would inevitably find that after going through the text once, you still would be missing a bunch of terms. So then you'd have to wade back in again. Perhaps you can see where this is leading. An iterative process that may have no end given the tenacious analness of many indexers. Unable to find those last 2 or 3 terms, after 20 years our indexer is quietly consigned to a mental ward, if any still exist, where he/she is heard to mumble "it's gotta be here somewhere. It's gotta be here somewhere..." Actually I just had an interesting thought and it involves informaton and entropy. In the above discussion I had implicitly assumed that you were given an alphabetized index. That is the reduced-entropy form of the information, at least with respect to the final user, for whom a page-order sorted index is another one-way ticket to the loony bin. Imagine if indexes were presented in page number order and you had to read every entry to know for sure if your term was there or not. On the other hand consider the original form of the data, its page-order sorted form. Arguably this is in a higher entropy state, yet if you were given such an index in your current project, the above paragraph wouldn't apply at all, or at least not nearly as much. Given a page-order sorted index with no page numbers it would be a hassle but well within the realm of the practicable, as you could go along with the certainty that if you have found term A at page sub A, and term C at page sub C, you can assume term B can be found in the interval between page sub A and page sub C. I must tell you the above musing on the relationship between information and entropy has a lot to do with a book I've been reading called Three Scientists and Their Gods, by a guy named Robert Wright. This little gem that I discovered wandering through a used book store talks a lot about the meaning and true nature of information. First in the form of the digital physics of Edward Fredkin, then in the form of DNA information in a long discussion of E.O. Wilson and his views abouts genes and social and cultural behavior, and finally in the work of Kenneth Boulding... but I haven't got to his part yet. I'm not actually sure what this means, but for what it's worth ask if the author can provide a page order sort. Actually I do have some ideas what this may mean but I've rambled too much already and I haven't even gotten to Nancy yet. Yes Nancy you _are_ talking to a brick wall. A strange sort of cognitive impairment can apparently be passed by computers to a certain class of people, for whom the solution to all life's complex dilemmas is something like "well gee why don't you just punch it all in the computer to collate and index and it will spit out the answer". I know there is the word Luddite for people who eschew technological advances, but has anyone come up with a word for those folks who irrationally ascribe almost supernatural powers to computers? Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:31:32 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: index without page numbers << I've been given an index assignment of a type I haven't encountered before -- the index has already been done by the author, but there are no page numbers! Apparently they want me to fill them in. My inclination is to simply do the whole thing over from scratch, which I think would probably be easier than to key in all the material that was put there by the author, and then try to hunt it all down in the text. What would you do? >> Aaackk! Tell them you need to index the book from scratch, or make them pay you a LOT extra. Second-guessing somebody with no guidance, unless it's the most straightforward dry book in the world and the author who made the index structure is an extremely expert indexer, is almost impossible. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:39:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: index without page numbers In-Reply-To: <199902051901.rbn1il.9am.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> At 06:57 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >I know there is the word >Luddite for people who eschew technological advances, but has anyone come up >with a word for those folks who irrationally ascribe almost supernatural >powers to computers? Perhaps "Babbitry" from the novel "Babbit" about a fellow in the (mumble mumble 1930s) who was fascinated with things technological. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:17:07 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools The index entry "Zeno, as founder of stoicism" gives more information than the index entry "Zeno", so I am amazed at the amount of feeling against such an entry. Someone searching the index for information on Zeno's paradoxes and seeing this entry will have their time saved by not having to look inside the book. Another way I would consider this is that the subject on that page is not Zeno, but more specifically Zeno's role in stoicism. The detailed entry is therefore an example of specific entry, rather than rewriting the book. And hopefully the book will provide more information than these five words, even if nothing more than the context of the statement. Glenda. Nicholas W. Koenig wrote: > I agree with Christine that the proposed entry merely > duplicates the text. A reader who wanted to know something > about Zeno would have no alternative but to go to the > single location. I have occasionally used expanded entries > when I thought they were important, but I always ask: How > important can this be if I need only one locator? > > But does this book really make no mention of Zeno's > paradoxes? If it does, you might have the subject of > another subentry. If not, I should think Zeno simpliciter > should suffice. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:25:00 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Lillian wrote: > This seems to be a chicken and egg problem. Do subheads only become > important when there are long strings of locators (which means that the main > heading comes first with the subhead breakout later) or to provide > additional and narrowing access points for the index user which makes them > part of the process of determining the main heading itself? > From the reader's point of view, looking up one to five page references to check if the materiel they are seeking is there, is not *too* great a burden. But if there are 10 or 15 page references then it would be a really time- consuming proposition. I think this is the crux of the problem, and the reason for the "rule" to break out subheads for more than approximately 5 locators per main heading. For the sake of the reader (who may be looking for information not even in the book) I would err on the side of more qualifiers and subentries rather than less, as space and time constraints permit. Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: A Note on Subheadings This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BE5155.AE3791E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Bob's thoughts are well posed, and the argument is valid. I tend = to agree with the original posting, preferring to err along the lines of = "less is more," but Bob is not wrong. In fact, it is because we can = disagree that the creativity of indexing is made more apparent. Basically, to sum up (so I don't have to attach any of the original = messages :-), here are the arguments: * Nile River, 7, 9 -- because the index is a tool for pointing to = information, not to provide information. * Nile River, Moses found in, 7 -- because the index is a tool for = pointing to information, and to identify the target of this pointing as = precisely as reasonable, given the editorial constraints. I hope Bob will accept my apologies for paraphrasing his arguments as = one incomplete sentence. :-) If worded this way, although both statements are certainly accurate in = theory, the latter argument -- the need for the indexer to point as = precisely as reasonable -- allows for greater freedom, and greater = subjectivity. For example, we could just as easily use this: Nile, 7, 9 But clearly this is not enough, nor is it fair to the reader. I don't = know how many other Niles there are out there, but there seems to be = extra room for ambiguity without the word "River" attached. On the other = hand, writing "Nile River (Egypt)" might be going overboard. But how much is "overboard"? As I wrote earlier, I err on the side of = "less is more." I create entries and subentries that provide only enough = information to be unambiguous. Clearly the example of including the word = "River" or the choice not to include the word "Egypt" falls into this = category. But ambiguity also applies to the content within the book = itself and not just the language. For example, my name does not yet = appear anywhere in this message. Yet if I were indexing this message, I = would want to include the author's name, and to point to the top of the = message authored. Thus creating an entry with just my name would be = insufficient. Sure, there's only one person with my name (and trust me, = I've looked), but it would make much more sense to create this entry: Seth Maislin, email message by This avoids the assumption that the message is about me, which is isn't. So there is definitely some subjectivity here, but I think the only true = goal is to avoid ambiguity, and that any information provided during = that process is a side-effect. So which is better, "Nile River" or "Nile River, Moses found in"? It = depends on the context of the book. Would a reader be somehow mislead by = viewing the shorter version? If book including an atlas, perhaps. If the = book were entirely about the life of Moses, then perhaps not. - Seth Seth Maislin=20 Focus Information Services=20 smaislin@world.std.com=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BE5155.AE3791E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think Bob's thoughts are well = posed, and the=20 argument is valid. I tend to agree with the original posting, preferring = to err=20 along the lines of "less is more," but Bob is not wrong. In = fact, it=20 is because we can disagree that the creativity of indexing is made more=20 apparent.
 
Basically, to sum up (so I don't = have to attach=20 any of the original messages :-), here are the arguments:
 
* Nile River, 7, 9 -- because the = index is a=20 tool for pointing to information, not to provide = information.
 
* Nile River, Moses found in, 7 -- = because the=20 index is a tool for pointing to information, and to identify the target = of this=20 pointing as precisely as reasonable, given the editorial=20 constraints.
 
 
I hope Bob will accept my apologies = for=20 paraphrasing his arguments as one incomplete sentence. :-)
 
If worded this way, although both = statements are=20 certainly accurate in theory, the latter argument -- the need for the = indexer to=20 point as precisely as reasonable -- allows for greater freedom, and = greater=20 subjectivity. For example, we could just as easily use = this:
 
    Nile, 7, = 9
 
But clearly this is not enough, nor = is it fair=20 to the reader. I don't know how many other Niles there are out there, = but there=20 seems to be extra room for ambiguity without the word "River"=20 attached. On the other hand, writing "Nile River (Egypt)" = might be=20 going overboard.
 
But how much is "overboard"? As I wrote = earlier, I=20 err on the side of "less is more." I create entries and = subentries=20 that provide only enough information to be unambiguous. Clearly the = example of=20 including the word "River" or the choice not to include the = word=20 "Egypt" falls into this category. But ambiguity also applies = to the=20 content within the book itself and not just the language. For example, = my name=20 does not yet appear anywhere in this message. Yet if I were indexing = this=20 message, I would want to include the author's name, and to point to the = top of=20 the message authored. Thus creating an entry with just my name would be=20 insufficient. Sure, there's only one person with my name (and trust me, = I've=20 looked), but it would make much more sense to create this = entry:
 
    Seth Maislin, email message = by
 
This avoids the assumption that the message is about = me, which=20 is isn't.
 
So there is definitely some subjectivity here, but I = think the=20 only true goal is to avoid ambiguity, and that any information provided = during=20 that process is a side-effect.
 
So which is better, "Nile River" or = "Nile=20 River, Moses found in"? It depends on the context of the book. = Would a=20 reader be somehow mislead by viewing the shorter version? If book = including an=20 atlas, perhaps. If the book were entirely about the life of Moses, then = perhaps=20 not.
 
- Seth

Seth Maislin
Focus Information Services =
smaislin@world.std.com=20
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BE5155.AE3791E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:05:11 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Response to Seth re Subheads Seth - I very much appreciate your moderate and rational response to my posting. But the points that you make illustrate a fundamental difference in the conceptual approaches that we take to indexing. If I understand you correctly, your primary philosophy is "less is more" and your primary criterion is to avoid ambiguity. I surely cannot quibble with that. But I do wish to point out that although I basically agree with you as far as you went, we seem to diverge on the issue of easing the task (burden?) of the reader. I would hesitate to claim that the guiding principles of indexing are limited only to accuracy and the avoidance of ambiguity. These are virtues, certainly, but my sense of my professional responsibilities includes helping the reader navigate the text. I have said, several times, that in my view the indexer is the pilot, guiding the reader through the uncharted waters of the text. To continue that analogy, it seems that you are saying that if the mariner (the reader) sees two lights that clearly are lighthouses and not bonfires on the shore, the pilot (the indexer) shrugs and walks away, claiming that this is sufficient information for him to make an easy and safe passage. After all, the criterion of unambiguity is fully met. This is analogous to an unambiguous entry with multiple undifferentiated locators, but no clue as to what they point to. Albert Einstein said: "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler." But be careful. If that always were true we would have neither cathedrals nor chorales, but would be chanting monotonic plainsong in prefabricated modular huts... Less is not always better. Mae West said: "Anything worth doing is worth doing to excess." Again, be careful. When that is practised we end up in twelve-step programs, or in prison, or dead. Pick your guru. I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between. Now, I really don't want to put too fine a point on this (as the Brits say) and, as I said in my original posting, I am fully cognizant of the limitations imposed by the real world. But it seems to me to be self-evident that two indexes to the same text, both entirely unambiguous, might be differently perceived by the reader in terms of helpfulness and ease of use. Of course that leads us to an endless, and probably acrimonious, thread on how one measure goodness in indexing. I am not at all sure that the Wilson criteria subsume all that can be said on this matter. But I really don't want to touch that. So, with your permission I shall fold my tent and, if not quietly, at least nonconfrontationally steal away. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:26:34 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Terminology Various compounds beginning with cyber- may be a bit more self-explanatory. cybersillies (those irrationally enthalled by computers) cybersuckers (those who believe eveything said by cybersillies) cybersickies (those who become nauseous in the presence of cybersillies and cybersuckers) cyberpsychos (presidents of large software companies who hire only cybersilllies and cybersuckers) Just a thought. Nick Koenig, cybersicky Richard Evans wrote: > > At 06:57 PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >I know there is the word > >Luddite for people who eschew technological advances, but has anyone come up > >with a word for those folks who irrationally ascribe almost supernatural > >powers to computers? > > Perhaps "Babbitry" from the novel "Babbit" about a fellow in the (mumble > mumble 1930s) who was fascinated with things technological. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 02:41:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Babbitry Nick Koenig wrote: >..........but has anyone come up with a word for those folks who irrationally >ascribe almost supernatural powers to computers? > Perhaps "Babbitry" from the novel "Babbit" about a fellow in the (mumble > mumble 1930s) who was fascinated with things technological. If you prefer something in the "Bs", How about "Babbagery", or "Babbaphilia", from Charles Babbage, (1791-1871), pioneer of machine computing. That leads to "Babbagerac" (as in insomniac) and "Babbaphiliac". Really too long to catch on. "Idiot" is more succinct... Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 03:53:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: OOps! Correction re Babbitry (and Five Laws of Information) All - Apologies to Kevin Mulrooney and Dick Evans! Kevin asked the question reposted by Nick Koening. Dick Evans supplied the "Babbitry" suggestion. Sorry, Kevin. I seem to be experiencing what you referred to as "cognitive impairment"! Sorry, Dick. I applaud you as a ranking member of the Digerati. BTW, Kevin, there IS no form of reduced-entropy for information. Informational entropy always moves in a direction to maximize itself, and to inhibit meaningful information transfer. Obviously you are unaware of Richardson's Theory of Inherent Informational Conflict. This states that: "For any snippet (highly technical term) of information in a very large database there will be another snippet of information that absolutely contradicts the first bit, eventually leading to total informational gridlock and functional paralysis." Richardson's Second Law of Information states that: "Random bits of information, no matter how numerous, do not constitute knowledge, and knowledge, no matter how technical and arcane, does not constitute wisdom." Richardson's Third Law of Information (with apologies to Mr. Gresham) states that: "Inaccurate but comfortable information always will drive out accurate but uncomfortable information." Richardson's Fourth Law of Information states that: "The half-life of irrational and destructive information is approximately five thousand years; the half-life of rational and constructive information is about three hours or until it can be suppressed, whichever is shorter." Richardson's Fifth Law of Information states that: 'Using a large enough database, you can convincingly prove anything." Rephrased in layman's terms, this says that regardless of our degree of confidence we really don't know what we are talking about, and are losing ground rapidly. Cheers! Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:29:39 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Glenda wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: indexes as learning tools In-Reply-To: <199902051823.KAA19037@dns1.mcn.org> Keith wrote: >It seems, though, that there may be _something_ to be said for William >Meisheid's argument that readers may get grumpy being "forced to "mine" the >information." I think once I begin to develop more of a sense of what's >appropriate for a particular _audience_ of a book, the question will make a >bit more sense. I think you've hit nail on head. For a computer manual or other technical document, or online indexes, or help docs, unexplained entries are annoying and distract the reader from the goal, which is the answer to a specific question, usually under duress. When I was trained as a law indexer, we did not ever include undifferentiated locators (for the reasons I've cited plus the fact that as the indexes were periodically revised more differentiated locators were often added). I imagine the same to be true in medical indexing, or at least, in the books I do for an alternative medicine publisher, I qualify entries. In a scholarly book, they are common and generally not destructive. I tend toward the "include the information" school, in general, but my practice for different types of audiences does vary considerably. Keith also wrote: >I suppose that underlying all of this is a question of consistency. I do >this for Zeno, I should do it for all similar entries - for instance > >Thales, astronomy and philosophy of, 19 > >And then where does it end? This too is what guides me in deciding whether to retain differentiating information in scholarly works and textbooks. Eventually information can begin to be lost in the effort to summarize such single references. Nevertheless, I will still sometimes choose to retain a single such instance and not others, based on the context. Best, Victoria vbaker@mcn.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:25:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK) I have hesitated to post again on this topic because, as ASI members will soon see, I stated my support for certification in the ASI ballot materials. (My name is on the ballot for a position on the Board.) I am uncomfortable with campaigning and don't want my posts on this topic to be construed that way. But since no one else is expressing any support, I will make a few brief responses to others' comments. In fact I could lose votes by speaking up. That's fine; I want those who disagree with me on this issue to know where I stand on the issue before they vote. I don't think certification is the number one issue that faces ASI, but I think we should take some time to study it. All of the objections raised would have to be addressed (I am saving all these posts). No specific proposals have been made, so we don't know what the policies would be on listings in the Indexer Locator. I doubt very much if membership in ASI would ever be restricted to certified indexers. Nick asked: > Is certification being advocated by clients or by practitioners? Both. I have talked to some clients who favor it (including at a roundtable on this topic at the 1997 ASI conference), as well as some who don't care. > But why not just let bad indexers be weeded out by publishers? Unfortunately, not all editors have the expertise and experience - nor sometimes the desire or the time - to judge index quality. Robert S. asked the basic questions that would have to be addressed, including: > Is this test to cover hardcopy indexing, or must it include embedded > indexing, web indexing, indexing for CD-ROMs and more? I don't think one certification process (as I mentioned previously, it does not have to be a test) could cover all these disciplines. It is probably too early in the technology life-cycles to address the other types Robert listed. As for periodical or database indexing, when this issue has come up on Index-L in the past, the database indexers indicated that the market does work in this field - clients/employers tend to train indexers and maintain good quality control, so certification is not needed. Therefore, when I talk about certification, I am thinking of traditional back-of-the-book indexing only. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools In-Reply-To: <000001be5176$cc21a3a0$b0cf23cb@pentium> >Someone searching the index for information on Zeno's paradoxes and seeing >this entry will have their time saved by not having to look inside the book. Here's why I disagree: If I came upon that entry, Zeno, as founder of stoicism, for one thing, how am I to know that that is all the information there is? I would still go to the text to see what it says about Zeno as founder of stoicism. No time saved. And if all I wanted to know was whether he was founder or not, I still have to go to the text, because for all I know, there is controversy over whether he was or not, and in the text, for all I know, it might come out that most people thought he wasn't the founder, so not only no time saved, but possibly I've been mislead to a false conclusion. It's not my job as indexer to teach the reader. It's my job to tell the reader where to find the info they need, and if there's more that one factoid, maybe tell them what factoids they'll find info on, and on what pages. Nothing more. Just my humble but strong opinion. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 4192176 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:42:21 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration inUK) Mary: I am glad everyone is examining certification carefully and not rushing in without considering the ramifications. I believe the marketplace will weed out the weak. If a publisher does not know who is good or not, he/she will discover quickly. Any good publisher will ask an indexer for previous references worked for or previous books worked on. If the indexer is new, he/she will not have any material to supply. That simple question from the publisher will automatically separate the amateurs from the professionals. Perhaps a checklist of what the publisher should ask or be looking for is all we need instead of certification. In fact, why not ask that membership is contingent on having completed at least one index within the last six months? And, once the person has become a member, why not make membership contingent doing a minimum of twelve indices per year (or some other number agreed upon)? These numbers will show everyone (and the interested publisher) that the indexer is serious and is a professional. This satisfies the adage of the proof is in the pudding. After all, if you are a good indexer, people will hire you. If not, they won't -- a kind of Catch-22. This, to me, proves more professionalism than certification and, even if it does not, is a lot easier and less expensive to implement. Just some thoughts to ponder. Rob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:46:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Indexes as learning tools Like so many other indexing issues (rates, marking the text, reading the book through, etc.) the answer to this dilemma may lie in the subject matter/density of the book. A book on cooking, crafts, travel interests, etc. (light reading) would not justify a sub-entry. A scholarly book (i.e., philosophy, psychology, quantum physics) many times, but not always, NEEDS a sub-entry. And the indexing endeavor is nothing if not ***flexible***. My "one-cent" worth. Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:49:56 -0800 Reply-To: ljm2001@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJM Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration inUK) Robert A. wrote: > > Mary: > > I am glad everyone is examining certification carefully and not > rushing in without considering the ramifications. I believe the > marketplace will weed out the weak. If a publisher does not know who is > good or not, he/she will discover quickly. Any good publisher will ask > an indexer for previous references worked for or previous books worked > on. If the indexer is new, he/she will not have any material to > supply. That simple question from the publisher will automatically > separate the amateurs from the professionals. > > Perhaps a checklist of what the publisher should ask or be looking > for is all we need instead of certification. > > In fact, why not ask that membership is contingent on having > completed at least one index within the last six months? And, once the > person has become a member, why not make membership contingent doing a > minimum of twelve indices per year (or some other number agreed upon)? > > These numbers will show everyone (and the interested publisher) that > the indexer is serious and is a professional. This satisfies the adage > of the proof is in the pudding. After all, if you are a good indexer, > people will hire you. If not, they won't -- a kind of Catch-22. > > This, to me, proves more professionalism than certification and, > even if it does not, is a lot easier and less expensive to implement. > > Just some thoughts to ponder. > > Rob > > According to your philosophy, then, a new indexer will never get hired! How do you suggest a beginning indexer become a "professional"? Sounds like the old catch-22 situation to me :-) Laura ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. S. Gangolly" Subject: Question on archive of this list. In-Reply-To: <199902060505.AAA20615@sarah.albany.edu> Is there an archive of the postings to this list? If so, how can it be accessed? J Gangolly ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: OOps! Correction re Babbitry (and Five Laws of Information) In-Reply-To: <199902060357.rbo104.8el.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> Re: Five laws of information Well, there's another Richardson original to hang on my wall next to the classic "An Indexer's Life." Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK) In-Reply-To: <199902060928.rbokco.8aa.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> I won't say I'm dead set against certification, but I will say that I have yet to see any concrete proposal that would allow me to evaluate it's usefulness. I attended the panel discussion at last year's conference and it generated more heat than light. My most basic concern is for the nature of the certification process: who decides who gets certified and what are the criteria. If I had absolute power in the matter, I think I would say to the strong proponents of certification: "OK, *you* get to administer the program but *I* get to set the criteria." If they were still enthused, I'd consider that a point in favor of certification. My second concern is the infrastructure required to manage such a program. We are a volunteer organization and it is already a full-time task to recruit volunteers to keep the existing organization running. Do we really want to undertake another fairly large function? With regard to the market weeding out bad indexers: Unfortunately, I don't see that working either. As has been said elsewhere, not many publishers know what to look for in index quality. If it arrives on time, looks like an index, and is the right size, it's often a "good" index. But, I don't know what certification would do to help that. Publishers are largely unaware of indexers and the ASI. Would they suddenly become more astute shoppers if we apply yet another layer to our profession? Publishers are also oriented to the bottom line. We've all been approached by publishers who want us to work for a pittance. Would such price shoppers care about certification? From what I've seen recently of publishers running pell mell to "computerize" their indexes, I'm less concerned with them hiring poor indexers than I am with them hiring none at all. I would like to think that educating the publishers is the way to go, but I'm skeptical of that approach too. I've lost two major clients in the last two years because they decided to "let the computer do it." My contacts in those companies were not happy with those decisions, and they well understood what goes into a good index, but the decisions were made at an executive level and left them no voice in the matter. If change is to be made in our favor, it must be made at the executive (decision making) level and it must be made as a business case, wherein hiring an indexer makes more business sense than letting the computer do it. That business case is best made by providing solid figures demonstrating the marketing advantage of a good index. Couple that information with educating the publishers on evaluating individual indexes. That is not a trivial effort either, but I would undertake that effort before I would undertake certification. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:57:25 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration inUK) Hello, Rob!! Rob said: [snip] > [W]hy not ask that membership is contingent on having > completed at least one index within the last six months? And, once the > person has become a member, why not make membership contingent doing a > minimum of twelve indices per year (or some other number agreed upon)? > > These numbers will show everyone (and the interested publisher) that > the indexer is serious and is a professional. This satisfies the adage > of the proof is in the pudding. After all, if you are a good indexer, > people will hire you. If not, they won't -- a kind of Catch-22. > [snip] And then Laura M. said: > According to your philosophy, then, a new indexer will never get hired! > How do you suggest a beginning indexer become a "professional"? Sounds > like the old catch-22 situation to me :-) > I'm also a beginner, and I'm with Laura. Unless Indexers, like the Shakers, are determined not to reproduce ;-( , what are your suggestions for how we beginners could ever get work?? Jackie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Question on archive of this list. In-Reply-To: <199902061513.KAA29343@carriage.chesco.com> At 10:10 AM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Is there an archive of the postings to this list? If so, how can it be >accessed? > >J Gangolly Take a look at: http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:12:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registrationin UK) Dick: I agree with you. Even if all of us professional indexers become certified, the publishers will still not know which of us to hire. I have learned from many years of teaching that tests only prove one thing -- how well you can take a test. I could very easily pass any test for certification you throw at me and yet still be a lousy indexer just as there are so many bad drivers in countries where the driving test is stringent and exacting. The law of the marketplace is caveat emptor. Most publishers are savvy enough to realize that. They find indexers in the same way we find them: word of mouth, advertising, etc. If a publisher is not worthy, word will get around soon enough. This is one of the great advantages of this listserv. We, the professional ASIers, will learn quickly whom to avoid. Publishers have their own networks built in that they have created. I, just like Mr. Evans, welcome a thorough review of the possibility of certification as long as meets everyone's approval. Rob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:34:03 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion Dick and others, Thanks for stating clearly one of the major concerns about certification: the effort involved for the benefits derived. We in ASI would do better putting our volunteer time into educational efforts and publicity about any members of ASI than in trying to police the quality of membership for the people who already have joined the organization. Let's not forget that there are many, many indexers out there who don't even belong to ASI. All those people who do the occasional index, or graduate students roped into indexing their professors' books, etc. Many of these people prepare substandard indexes through poor access to information about how to do better. Since ASI is an educational organization (not a professional one), our mission should be to educate people about better indexes. (Note, peple who don't index at all are welcome in ASI, and I think that is well within our mission statement. I wouldn't want to see that change.) To respond to Mary Mortensen's points: If someone wants to start a Board of Ceritifed Indexers, I have no trouble with that idea. But that organization would have a very different mission from ASI's. The certification issue is off-track within ASI's mission, in my opinion (one shared previous Boards, since this is "The Issue That Will Not Die"). Until ASI handles its stated mission better (doing more publicity, education, and marketing), we should be wary of tackling new projects, especially one like certification of members. When it comes right down to it, I guess that I would rather find that a publisher had hired a bad ASI-member indexer than a bad non-ASI-member indexer. But we haven't even fought that battle well yet. So, Mary, how about supporting a good publicity campaign? Supporting educational programs industry-wide? Printing a few thousand more copies of the "Indexer Locator" and getting them in the hands of every editor in the country? If anyone wants to know what ASI could do, there is a publicity campaign on the books at ASI (approved in 1995, I believe) that has been underfunded from day one and is now probably largely defunct for lack of funds and personnel (I know the subsequent Publicity Coordinators have spoken to me about it, but have decried the lack of support within ASI for the efforts outlined in that plan). We have yet to put our money behind broad educational and publicity efforts. Until we win that battle, certification remains a very minor issue (again, in my opinion). Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN PS. I'm sorry if this reads like a tirade today. I must be feeling cranky from reading all these postings about certification! But the certification issue just seems to be one where the people who are pushing for it haven't really digested the fact that it isn't ASI's mission to improve the quality of INDEXERS. Our mission is to improve the quality of INDEXES.... meaning indexes done by anyone, professional indexers or once-in- a-lifetime indexers. Certification advocates miss this subtle but important distinction. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:01:30 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Getting Started About the "Catch-22" of getting started: The number of professional indexers who are practicing today disproves the statement that new indexers can't get started in indexing. Everyone has to start somewhere. Figuring out HOW is part of the difference between those who make it and those who don't. Not one indexer practicing today had the "advantage" of certification--in fact, many of us got into the field before the USDA course was available, before there was a strong organization like ASI with regional chapters and special interest groups (as well as multi-day national meetings with workshops), before ASI had such a strong publications program, and before there were any good networks like INDEX-L to help us get into the field. So, if you are new indexer trying to break into the field, I would say that you need to start asking people how they got into the field--and try to emulate some of those methods. Many of us started out in-house, or through an internship, or through apprenticing and/or being mentored. Some people are self-trained. Some people persisted with letters and cold calls. Many of us met clients and potentials clients through networking within organizations in our subject areas of specialization. I think that you will find there are a thousand ways to "get that first job." What you have to figure out is, which way will work for you. Your method will probably turn out to be unique to you, based on your background, contacts, and ingenuity. (I have always enjoyed the variety of "getting started" stories that indexers have.) There is plenty of work available. Get someone to vouch for the quality of your work and you will get your foot in the door also. Take an indexing course. Get a mentor. Attend a conference and meet other indexers and editors. Work in-house temporarily to get some contacts. Start indexing as a volunteer (at your local library, for example). Meet local authors and writers, who might need an index. Keep pursuing all of the above for a few years. (I believe that is takes 1-2 years to develop a client base.) Don't give up. One day you will look back and realize that you have been indexing for X years. You will remember how hard it was to get started because you will remember how hard it is to find every new client. If the thought of having to find new clients all the time for the next X years depresses you, get a steady, in-house job now and save yourself some grief. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN PS. I sincerely believe that if you don't enjoy (or at least can make peace with) the process of finding new clients, you will not enjoy being a freelance professional indexer because few of us can rely solely on one or two clients for a long career. Although I look forward to reading the posts from anyone who works in such a glorious environment! Most of us work very hard to find and keep the clients we have. It is only slightly easier because we have a track record. How you get started is that you find ways around not having a track record to get your foot in the door, then you do good work, then you get replaced by a computer and start this process all over again. (OK. I am being somewhat cynical in order to make a point. But I don't think finding clients gets that much easier, especially if you move from one niche area to another. Perhaps other people who have worked in several publishing niches could chime in with some of their experiences?) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:49:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Getting Started Barbara Cohen was so right on **so** many levels! No one can make this first difficult step easy for the beginning indexer, nor perhaps should we. As a look at the "mentoring" thread on this list will show, a good mentor/mentoree is difficult to establish, especially from a distance - and let's face it, we don't find "an indexer on every street corner". And for some, if not most, new indexers, this list is about the best you're going to find - but this also requires diligence. Being an indexer requires flexibility, ingenuity, and extensive problem-solving abilities - with all the suggestions on "how to get started" to be found in the archives of this list, if an "indexer-wanna-be" can't get started, then it just wasn't destined to be. My cynicism this morning may stem from the fact that I've repeatedly tried to mentor and provide an "easy start" for those interested in the profession - mostly because I did it all the hard way (hardware, software, indexing conventions AND marketing clients). I have obviously chosen either the wrong people or the wrong method - more than likely both. The archives of this list contain a tremendous amount of informational material, so I think the best advice is to start digging! While I am on the mentoring subject, I would like to express my admiration for Maria Coughlin - both for her recent contribution to this list regarding her personal experiences/outlooks and also to her thoughtful and extensive contributions to those fortunate enough to have a mentoring relationship with her. There should be more of her in this world and I hope those who have received the benefit of her experience appreciate the "gift" they have been given. Thoughtfully, Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:04:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion Barbara: I am with you on this one. Let's put our money where our mouth and advertise, advertise, advertise. Rob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:33:09 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Veronica Richards Subject: Re: How to unsubscribe? Could someone forward me unsubscribe info, too? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:46:51 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK From Christine Headley Regarding Robert 's Questions (copied below), is there actually a proposal to Certify indexers in the USA? These questions have been answered in the UK and the registration process has been running for many years; it has recently been altered somewhat and Laurence Errington's post concerned proposed changes in eligibility for inclusion in Indexers Available, our directory which is sent out to publishers. I can't comment on how SI in the UK got to where it is now. I just know that I am having great difficulty finding a book which is neither too long nor too short, is a seriously good example of my work, doesn't have my name on it and I can remember the thought processes involved so that I can explain it in answer to the questionnaire. As far as I know, this is a British thing, and has not been suggested for the USA... So, while Robert's questions would certainly be germane if one were proposing to create from scratch, the threat doesn't seem to exist. Christine Headley Stroud, Glos >To Everyone: > > Certification poses too many problems for implementation. > > 1. Who does the certifying and why them? > 2. Who designs the test, who has a say in it, and why them? > 3. Why get recertified and how often, who decides and why them? > 4. What about all the different styles of certification? What if >mine > does match the style in the test? Am I wrong and you right? >Are > we to have a society of haves and have nots? Is this what we > want? > 5. Is this test to cover hardcopy indexing, or must it include >embedded > indexing, web indexing, indexing for CD-ROMs and more? Who > decides this and why them? > > If you add certification as a stipulation for being a member, you >change the entire reason for the association. I, for one, will opt >out. That is not why I came on board. > > Robert > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:43:27 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A Note on Publishers and Certification (long) All - Dear God! I really did not want to reopen the certification brouhaha when I responded to Laurence Errington's post about SI's .... err.... "selectivity" in listing and/or certifying indexers. I feel somewhat like the scientist in the old Godzilla films who, upon finding a giant egg on a tropical island, decides to hatch it! "Ah, so", he says in overdubbed Japanese, "I wish that I hadn't done that!" But (there always is a "but") Dick Evans raised a good point in his comment on publishers and index quality. Now, in preparation for the Roundtable Discussion on Certification in Seattle (which, as Dick points out, did raise the room temperature but not the level of illumination) I prepared a fairly lengthy and quite detailed analysis of certification as I perceived it. Unfortunately, the time alloted for presenting arguments was quite limited, and that paper never was read to the attendees. Two sections of it seem to be germane to Dick's point. The first has to do with payment by publishers for certified indexers; the second addresses the question of certification being entirely voluntary. Dr. Errington's experiences reinforce my concern. I have included them here, simply as caveats to think about. But do not, I implore you, start an endless and bitter thread about them! Please let this sleeping dog lie! (There are more apt metaphors than "sleepng dog", but this is a family list.) ASI has some serious professional and organizational issues to address at this time, and being pulled down into the acrimonious quicksand pit of certification will serve no one well. Note that tomorrow morning I hope to leave for a short but blessed respite away from indexing and, above all, away from this computer! BTW, in that context I observe that a portable computer doesn't break the chains that bind us, it only lengthens them... So, here are my two points: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Point #1: The idea that a "certified indexer" can command a higher price in the marketplace is, in my view, wishful thinking and deceptive. There is no conceivable correlation between paying a premium to hire a board- certified neurosurgeon (when you are paying for what you hope is life-saving competence) and a production-driven publisher of computer books expecting the index to a 500-page book in four days at the lowest possible rate. Nobody who has spent much time as a freelance indexer in today's marketplace can, in good conscience, suggest that the average publisher will require, pay for, or even have time to recognize, the refinement and nuances of indexing that proponents of certification say can be expected from so-called "topnotch" accredited indexers. It is not that an editor would not prefer an outstanding index if such could be had in the same time frame, and at the same cost, as a middle-of-the road adequate index. But, as I have said over and over in other writings, today's publishing imperatives are not those of 84 Charing Cross Road. An editor who is operating in good conscience has an obligation to provide an adequate index that reflects the text and satisfies the readers' needs, and to do so within time and budget constraints. Anything less than that is unsatisfactory (this sometimes happens) and anything substantially better that that is pure gravy (and that sometimes happens, too!) Editors have not been sitting on a hoard of gold, like the dragon Fafnir in Wagner's Ring, refusing to pay indexers higher rates because they were not certified. Editors don't pay higher rates because they haven't got the money, and getting higher rates usually is about as easy as getting blood from a stone. Certification will not change publishers' available cash. That is absurd. Can anyone seriously suggest that this dialog will take place: Indexer: "Hi! Guess what? I'm certified, so I am raising my rates by 50%." Editor: "Gosh! That's great! No problem. We have been hoping this would happen so we could pay you more!" But what is much more likely to happen is that an editor, routinely asking if an indexer is certified and being told "no", will hold her rate to the lowest scale because she will not (cannot) justify paying the higher rate to a non- certified indexer. Not because she is mean-spirited, but because her management typically requires her to cut costs. In my view, the more realistic outcome of certification is maintaining a steady pay scale for certified indexers, and a lower scale for those who are not certified. So unless ASI and indexers are willing to risk restraint-of- trade litigation by establishing fee scales for certified indexers, the appellation "certified" is heartwarming but utterly useless to raise rates in the competitive marketplace. But the foregoing comments apply only to freelance indexers. Another, and more sinister, possible consequence of certification (or the absence of it) will be its use by employers to discriminate between in-house indexers in granting or denying raises and promotions, and in determining pay scales for new hires. Certification status certainly will become a standard question in performance reviews and on employment applications. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Point #2: The idea that certification can be optional is unrealistic and disingenuous. Very quickly, certification will become the de facto standard, not only for freelancers but also for in-house indexers. Editors are like any other administrators: they want to get on with the job at minimal risk to themselves. If an editor has to choose an indexer, she would be taking unusual risks to select a non-certified indexer, even if that person were three times more competent than the "safer" indexer who passed a basic, textbook certification test. So most editors will routinely, almost reflexively, ask "are you certified?" No quality- or fee-related reason for this. It simply lowers the risk, if anything goes wrong, of her managing editor holding her responsible for picking the wrong freelancer. Certification will not raise our fees one iota. But lack of certification will be an excellent excuse to discriminate in establishing our rates. So, if other freelance indexers go about claiming to be chemically-pure and certified I surely will have to become certified, too. To all but the most casual dilettantes in this profession the idea of giving away all those marketing points probably will be unacceptable. Certification very quickly will become a de facto standard and, once established, it will be simple hell ever to undo this mischief. The genie will be out of the bottle, and there will be much pain before it can be put back again (if at all). Do any of you know of any system of academic or professional credentials that has voluntarily been abandoned? You can be sure that only the mavericks will press for abandonment; all the anointed ones will fight to the death to maintain their privilege and distinction. With the imposition of certification most good, competent, indexers will routinely, almost casually, be bypassed if they don't have the so-called "optional" certification. This kind of thing must be known to all experienced indexers and all experienced business persons. So it must be known to the current proponents of certification. And that is why I so deeply mistrust the apparent innocence of these suggestions. To be cynical about it, one might reflect that all indexers are not created equal, and it is well that these alleged differences in competence be arbitrarily determined and officially sanctioned by ASI for the benefit of clients who might otherwise hire an inappropriate freelancer, and for employers who desire additional criteria for manipulating in-house indexers' wages. An artificial, invidious, and destructive criterion for discriminating between indexers will have been endorsed by ASI and introduced into our professional world. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Best to you all, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:45:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion Hi Rob, You need to let the ASI Board know (if you think we should do more educational and publicity stuff). They repeatedly cut funds and told me to "stop doing such a good job" when I was the publicity coordinator--Bonnie couldn't keep up with the number of inquiries we were generating even from the small amount of publicity I did manage to do. Can you imagine?? Anyway, after 2 years, I gave up and turned the baton (and files) over to Janet Perlman. Then she turned it over to Peg Mauer. Peg just turned everything over to someone else. In other words, now the problem is compounded by lack of continuity too. We need more publicity, more ability to follow through, and so forth. But whenever I get frustrated, I try to keep in perspective that ASI is an organization too cheap to buy its own letterhead for the main office! (Bonnie has to use a photocopied version!) That helps me remember that ASI is mostly amateur-league in actually, but with great ambitions. Cynically yours, Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:00:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Certification Hi Bob, Thanks for posting your comments. I would love to see you publish your comments in KW, so we could have a source for referring people who think ASI should be in the certification business. Maybe a good pro and con discussion in print would help put the issue in perspective. (I almost wrote "to rest" instead of "in perspective" but I don't think this issue is going to go away in the USA as long as people cast their eyes to SI's system.) I still think my point about ASI's mission is the shortest answer about why ASI doesn't have certifiction. Some days, I wish it was called "The American Society of INDEXING" (rather than Indexers). That would clarify this issue, perhaps. I should clarify my own view: I am not opposed to the idea of certification in theory (although I do foresee major problems in practice and personally feel no need to police the industry or my colleagues in this way), but I think the discussion should take place OUTSIDE ASI because it isn't a relevant issue for ASI. So, if the pro-certification people want to establish a separate organization (a Board of Certified Indexers, or a Society of Professional Indexers, or some such), they would have my blessing about their efforts. I would be glad to see a proposal. I would be glad to look over criteria. I would be glad to see what dues might be. I could then decide to apply for certification or not. But none of this has anything to do with the ASI mission, which is solely educational. Maybe ASI needs a "Supreme Court" to determine just what is "constitutional" under ASI's mission statement. I would love to hear what some of the senior members of ASI (who were around when it was founded) think about the idea of certification vis a vis the intended mission of ASI. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:01:55 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Mortensen Subject: Re: ASI Certification In response to Barbara's point about the mission of ASI, my interpretation of the educational mission of ASI includes improving the quality of our members work, and I think setting minimum standards is part of that. But I can see how others think it is not a high priority. Since the issue keeps coming up, what I would like to see is a committee to evaluate the pros and cons, present a report to the ASI board with a recommendation (either to develop a certification program or not) and let the board vote. Then, if the board votes against development of a program, either because it outside the mission of the organization or for other reasons, when the issue comes up again we would have a document that lays out the pros and cons and an official ASI decision. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:11:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: ASI Certificatiion In-Reply-To: <199902061348.rbp3ko.9bc.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> At 01:45 PM 2/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Rob, > >You need to let the ASI Board know Be assured, the Board knows. The strategic planning committee knows. Candidates for office in the coming election know. I don't know if there is even anyone still on the Board from the period Barbara is talking about. But I do know that the current ground is fertile for such suggestions. The planning committee will present a strategic plan at the annual meeting and publicity and many other important concerns will be included. If anyone in the society has any pet projects or priority concerns, from now until the annual meeting is the time to bring them forward. Feel free to contact anyone on the planning committee (see addresses on the ASI Web site) or post to the new ASI-L list, which was provided specifically for matters concerning ASI. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:20:06 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration in UK) Mary Mortensen wrote: > > > Nick asked: > > Is certification being advocated by clients or by practitioners? > > Both. I have talked to some clients who favor it (including at a roundtable > on this topic at the 1997 ASI conference), as well as some who don't care. > I don't consider simple, favorable expressions to be advocacy. Are most publishers willing to invest their time and money in the development of an indexer certification program? I think not. As others have pointed out, no one really knows what the reaction of publishers might be to a certification program. Some of the possibilities don't seem too appealing. > > But why not just let bad indexers be weeded out by publishers? > > Unfortunately, not all editors have the expertise and experience - nor > sometimes the desire or the time - to judge index quality. I absolutely agree with you here. However, my impression is that many publishers are more interested in decent, hassle-free indexes from people they have worked with before than in exploring the prospect of getting a better index from someone they don't know. Similarly, the indexing rates of some publishers lead one to suspect that quality is hardly a major concern in certain quarters. Why then should indexers expend their time, energy and money in developing certification standards? I'd say the quality of indexes might be better served if all this effort were expended on actual indexing. One last comment on the workability of certification standards. If certification is only to be concerned with minimum standards, then surely publishers are capable of judging whether indexes they purchase or are sent as samples meet those standards. If not, maybe they should just fold up shop. If more than minimum standards are to be addressed, some crucial indexing abilities may be uncertifiable. For example, if indexing is a form of creative writing, then artistic content is an important component. Finally, how is one to judge the ability of an indexer to adequately map the contents of an entire book? Would certifiers really compare sample indexes with the books indexed? > > Mary > -- > * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com > * Lawrence, Kansas, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:52:57 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration inUK) Oops. Hadn't read, or even noticed, this bit of the thread until after despatching my earlier thoughts. Sorry. Christine Headley Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:42:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: A Note on Publishers and Certification (long) Bob: Your comments are welcome to this illuminating discussion of certification. The bottom line for all of us is not how much it will cost, etc., but will it do for us. In other words, will be able to make more money by being certified? In a perfect world, absolutely. In this world, .... You finish that sentence. Rob ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:07:40 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: A Note on Subheadings All - In a recent posting regarding my Nile River index examples, Bob Richardson posed the following rhetorical question: > >Comment #1: In the first example, Lillian did not say if there was >another main entry for "Moses". If there was, then the single "Nile" locator >might have been adequate. > There are additional entries on Moses, 7 to be exact. As a user, if I am looking for information about Moses, I look under "Moses", not under "Nile River". But, he didn't address my central question: What to do if there are 2 or more locators? >>However, if it had been mentioned elsewhere, following the example I was >>given by the press, the entries would have looked like this: >> Nile River >> Moses found in, 7 >> annual flooding of, 9 >>To me, it makes more sense just to limit the entry thusly: >> Nile River, 7, 9 > With addition of the second locator, the actual text on p. 7 hasn't changed. It's still as worthy of a qualifier as it was originally. Following his method, every entry containing 2 or more locators might well end up with no locators in the main heading, as my first example above shows, since you can't have an entry phrased Nile River, Moses found in, 7 annual flooding of, 9 or the reverse: Nile River, annual flooding of, 9 Moses found in, 7 This is even worse since it misleads the user by implying that Moses was found in the annual flooding of the Nile River. (Perhaps he was, but that's not what the author wrote.) If a major discussion of flooding occurs over a page range then you have several possibilities: (1) Nile River annual flooding of, 9-11 Moses found in, 7 (2) Nile River, 9-11 Moses found in, 7 (3) Nile River, 7 annual flooding of , 9-11 or (4) Nile River, 7, 9-11 Of these, my choice would be either (2) or (3), but again, I'm not assuming that the user is looking for information on Moses in this entry, only that there is a discussion of the Nile River on these pages. Further in his posting, he uses the following example: >. . .. Consider this: A reader, using an index >for a book on certain aspects of military history, is looking for information >on the Mexican War experiences of General Douglas MacArthur. Under the heading >"MacArthur, General Douglas", the user finds three undifferentiated locators >(well within conventional guidelines). If I was the researcher in this case, I would look under "Mexican War" for information about that War and under "MacArthur, General Douglas" for information on the General. If the locators intersect, then I'm in luck, but it really doesn't matter. If there are references given under both entries, then I make a note of the book for future research. But what I'm searching for in the index has something to do with the main topic of the book: a biography on the General will mention his various war experiences; a book on the Mexican War will have entries on who fought in it. And I know enough to search accordingly. In the original example, Zeno and Stoicism; if I'm looking for information on Zeno I look under his name; if my search is for Stoicism, then I look for entries under Stoicism. IMHO, using qualifiers puts too much emphasis on one entry. One of the main jobs of an indexer is to provide *multiple* points of access to the text. Whereas qualifiers may have a role in some single-locator entries, on the whole, they tend to clutter up the index. Afterall, we can't hold the user's hand all the time and point to the exact place in the text where s/he will find specifically what is wanted. We need to assume that the user will have enough sense to look at more than one index entry. Without this assumption, then aren't we implying a lack of intelligence on the part of the user? Lillian ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:43:04 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Holmes Subject: Tables & Figures within a page-range Hello All I'm currently working on a book about the formation of basins around the Mediterranean aimed at professional geologists. In one chapter (although there are many similar instances scattered throughout the book), a section is dedicated to the seismic survey of a lake, and how the data was acquired and processed. Within this section there are also two maps/charts presented as figures and two tables of technical details about the survey equipment. Would it be better to index all these elements as (where {} denote italics): Lake Balaton seismic survey data acquisition 369-72, 371t, {371}, 372t, {372} or just give the page range 369-72 and let the readers discover the figures/tables for themselves? Also, what if a figure appears over many pages? Which is better: Pannonian Basin chronostratigraphy {304-9} or just give {304} and let the readers see for themselves that a single figure spreads over a number of pages? Finally, how does one refer to a figure on a fold-out section without a page number of its own? Would this be acceptable: Bouguer Anomaly map {fold-out section between pp}250 & 251 or is there some other convention I should use? Many thanks John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Re: Tables & Figures within a page-range John, It's been my convention to either put t (for table), c (for chart), m (for map) following each page number, either italicized or not, or for that matter, page number plus letter italicized or not, with an explanatory sentence at top of index reading something like "Page numbers (or italicized page numbers) followed by a t, c, m, denote pages which contain a table, chart or map" - or something to that effect. This usually follows the convention used by the publisher - they should tell you what they want. But the most important thing is to be **consistent**. The example you have given mixes italicized numbers (without a designation) with numbers with a designation - this doesn't usually work well. Regarding the figure which spreads over multiple pages, I normally put the page range in. Regarding the fold out, what you have done is acceptable, except I would lose the word "section". I'm certain others will have alternative suggestions also. When I first look at the pages, if there are tables, pictures, charts, maps, etc., and the publisher hasn't already indicated how they want these handled, I ask them. Actually, when working for a new client, I **always** request a sample of their layout form and then configure my software print options to reflect their requirements. This is where Macrex is really **tops**. But I'm certain Cindex also is very good in this area. Hope this helps. Julie Grayson juliesg@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erik Spears Subject: help I'm looking for subscription, digesting, archives, etc. information for the Index-L list. Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance, --Erik ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:09:57 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.A Binns" Subject: Re: Tables & Figures within a page-range In-Reply-To: At 11:43 AM 2/7/99 -0000, John wrote: > > >Finally, how does one refer to a figure on a fold-out section without a page >number of its own? Would this be acceptable: > > Bouguer Anomaly map {fold-out section between pp}250 & 251 > >or is there some other convention I should use? I am currently working on a book which has fold-outs like this and am following the style set by a previous book in the series. In this case I would put: Bouger Anomaly map 251/2 with an explanatory note at the beginning of the index. However, Macrex will not accept / as part of a page number, so you have to type a 'dummy number' with tildes followed by 251/2 in curly brackets in order to get 251/2 to file correctly. In other words you have to type: ~251~{251/2} At least that is the way I have worked out. I dare say other people will have different solutions. I am sure Cindex etc. use similar methods. Margaret ============================ Margaret Binns Indexer 20 Hangleton Manor Close Hove, Sussex, BN3 8AJ, UK Tel: 01273 420844 binns@hangleton.u-net.com ============================ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:15:07 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: index without page numbers Any chance of treating the "preliminary index" as an "author's list of must-haves"? I've been writing and indexing mostly technical manuals ... a couple of the engineers I've worked with the past few years have been interested enough in documentation & usability to provide, gratis, a list of "must have" terms; I use those terms plus any others my own experience tells me should be there ... IMHO that cooperation makes a better product, besides (heh, heh) rewarding the engineers for caring. == RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:19:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: ASI Certification (Was: Indexers Availaible and Registration inUK) Publishers don't generally hire indexers without first either reviewing a sample index or reading over their business experience. If a publisher decides to hire an indexer that has no trainining in indexing mentioned on her resume, no experience having created indexes (whether for pay or not), and no references...then they already are showing that they are hiring the person out of either desperation because of needing someone quick, or they're looking for a cheap job. Why do indexers need certification when they can list such things as indexing courses that they have taken, as well as work experience? As far as newbies, they can work at creating indexes to provide as samples (perhaps doing some freebies for no-profit organizations that don't have much of a budget) , and take courses on indexing. This will give them something substantial to put on their resumes. Becoming involved in key volunteer positions for ASI chapters also looks great on a resume. Kevin Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:43:56 +1100 Reply-To: Troy Saltzgiver Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: About HyperIndex - PLEASE DIRECT RESPONSES TO troy@computer-source.com I am forwarding an enquiry I received - can you please direct responses to the author and not to me. Thanks ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi From: Troy Saltzgiver [mailto:troy@computer-source.com] Subject: HyperIndex I have been told that a review of the HyperIndex program for Macs appeared in one of the 1998 issues of The Indexer. I have tried to locate a copy of the article, but to date have been unable to do so. Could you direct me to a person or organization that might be able to assist me? I am preparing to take a basic indexing course, and am planning to use this software if it received a favorable review. The only information that I have received concerning this software has come from the author/programmer, and I would really like a second opinion before I invest time and money in it. Thank you for your assistance. Troy Saltzgiver ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:45:49 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: Indexers Available and Registration in UK Apparently non-certified indexers will not be included in the Indexer Locator (UK) in future. This worries me because it seems to remove a service from one group of members, and removes choice from the hands of publishers and employers of indexers. If certification is valid and useful (i.e. if it is a way of distinguishing good indexers from mediocre or bad indexers) then it should speak for itself, and publishers should naturally want to choose an indexer who is certified. This could be achieved by listing all indexers in the Locator, but distinguishing those who are registered in some way. In Indexers Available (Australian) registered indexers and non-registered indexers are distinguished by the use of different fonts (I think currently BOLD for registered). Registered indexers are those who have submitted an index for registration and had it passed as being of a satisfactory level. There might also be times when non-registered indexers are a better choice for a job. This could just be because someone hasn't applied for registration, or whatever. Or maybe someone with a book on higher mathematics would rather have a subject specialist who is an adequate indexer than an indexing specialist who might be out of depth with the subject. The whole indexing process is too complex to be limited by simple, broadly-applied rules. The idea that regular and recent indexing work is required for registration or whatever also bothers me. For one thing it will discriminate against parents who take time out of the paid workforce for childcare. Indexing skills depend primarily on basic intellectual skills, and these are not lost so readily (I hope). Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:45:53 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Professional ethics an oxymoron? Bob (? Richardson) wrote: > It has been my observation over a fair number of years that goodness (or integrity, compassion and kindness) largely reside in individuals, but rarely so in organisations. Of course there are good people and wretched people, but at least there seems to be a reasonable distribution of these qualities. > Organisations, on the other hand, with some wonderfully notable exceptions, seem to be clustered on the venal, inhumane end of the spectrum. I don't understand this dichotomy. I think the reasons why are not hard to seek. "Collective irresponsibility" would be a good point to start from. In talking about organisations, Bob has voiced some of the concerns I feel about the current drive towards 'professionalism'. I don't think it's any coincidence that two of the most 'professionalised' areas of work - law and medicine - tend to produce some of the most reactionary, unimaginative, narrow-minded and self-seeking expressions of opinion, even though the individuals working in them may be exemplary as individuals. And when someone talks about 'professional' behaviour, all too often they're looking for an excuse to be greedy, impatient or unfeeling. I can see that a 'professional' attitude might be necessary to maintain cohesion and lobbying power in a workgroup with tens or hundreds of thousands of members, just as it is in the armed forces. But to see it promoted in a tiny profession like indexing is rather sad. It's as if we're ashamed of being so friendly and reasonable and nice when everyone else is fighting over the money trough. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:27:18 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: e-fax is coming: I thought you might be interested to know about this. It apparently is not operative yet, but it sounds like a great idea to me. Jackie F. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.e-fax.com From the Newsweek U.S. Edition February 15, 1999 DATA Faxless Society If you still don't have a fax machine, you might never need one. Register your e-mail address with eFax (www.e-fax.com), a free fax-to-e-mail service, and get a traditional 10-digit fax number. Then, when someone sends a document to the number, eFax will convert it to an image file and send it to you as an attachment in an e-mail message. Handwritten text or drawings are OK; you can download the fax and read it easily with a simple viewer that eFax provides you. Faxes appear exactly as they would from a standard machine, right down to the time and date stamp on the top. eFax is great if you're on the road. In the office, use it to bypass the company fax when you're expecting a confidential memo -- or just to avoid a trip to the machine.