Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9903B" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:05:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: W: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Karen Lane Subject: Music at the ASI conference (June 9-13) PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THE LIST! SEE BELOW FOR REPLY ADDRESSES Going to Indianapolis for the American Society of Indexers (ASI) annual conference? Can you sing or play an instrument? If so, we can make beautiful music together. Join your colleagues for an informal music-making session after hours (probably on Thursday, June 10). If you sing or play an instrument, let's have some fun. All ranges of abilities welcome. What kind of music? All kinds. Pop, classical, jazz, folk, barbershop, swing, whatever. Do you have to sign up first? Sort of. We'll need to get an idea beforehand of how much participation to expect and what kinds of music we'll be enjoying. Some music types require printed music, and it would be nice to get some of that organized before we arrive in Indianapolis. Also, you may find that there are others with whom you can join for duets, trios, quartets, etc. Contact Karen Lane (klane@digital.net) if you sing, and Marilyn Rowland (marisol@marisol.com) if you play an instrument. Remember, we're looking for amateurs. You don't have to be a professional musician; you just have to love making music. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:30:45 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: automatic Web site indexing software In-Reply-To: You would hope so, but in Australia a few years ago a restaurant critic was successfully sued for criticising a meal. I can't remember an;y relevant details, and I think Australia has pretty strict libel laws, but its just a reminder that common sense doesn't always rule in the courts. Glenda > Seems to me that a factual product review is > pretty safe. > > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:30:41 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: AusSI Newsletter available via the Web The March Edition of the Australian Society of Indexers' newsletter is now available via the Web on http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl/9902mar ------------------------------ Jonathan Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:25:54 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Fw: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE6724.D7642260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Denise_Felch@cch.com To: SAnindex@xsite.net Date: Friday, March 05, 1999 4:23 PM >Thank you for all your help. > >(See attached file: Sr.Indexer fast 4194.doc) > ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE6724.D7642260 Content-Type: application/X-Lotus-Manuscript1; name="Sr.Indexer fast 4194.doc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Sr.Indexer fast 4194.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Lotus Manuscript 1.0 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAA EAAAJgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQD+/wMKAAD/ ////BgkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARhgAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCBEb2N1bWVudAAKAAAATVNXb3Jk RG9jABAAAABXb3JkLkRvY3VtZW50LjgA9DmycQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE6724.D7642260-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:09:07 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: continuous publishing Irene Wong wrote: > > ... it sounds similar to the updatable services that legal, > accounting, standards, etc. publishers do all the time. ... > They call this "looseleaf publishing", although much of it is > on CD or online now. It is a massive, very profitable industry > throughout the world. ... > > ... a few issues come immediately to mind: > > * Index all the bits and pieces that you gradually send out. > Release a new index with each update. (I guess it depends on > whether you think a search is good enough if it is online. > But so much material really needs a professional manually > prepared index.) A search is almost never good enough. More and more web sites and other HTML documents include real indexes, too. Indexers would do well to concentrate on these emerging opportunities. See "Why Create an Index?" at the URL below for more information, including links to related articles. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:40:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chandonnet /Soumah Subject: IASC Annual General Meeting Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE68CA.078E4780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! 1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING We are pleased to announce that IASC Annual General Meeting will be held on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal, Quebec. Here s an overview of what we have in store for you. On Friday, May 7 *Two half-day workshops : - Indexing 101 - offered in English by Catherine Keenan and Christopher Blackburn (9:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.) A workshop for indexers new, and not so new! An overview of the process of generating an index, from beginning to end. A chance to revisit the common work of all indexers: defining aboutness and pointing to it. The experienced workshop leaders will guide participants through hands-on indexing exercises, and will emphasize the characteristics of book indexes, periodical indexes and web indexes. Other topics which will be discussed include, but are not limited to: the time factor in the production of indexes, the client s input into the final form of the index, reference materials, indexing software, embedded indexing. - Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offered in French by Michhle Hudon (1:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.). De la nicessiti du contrtle du vocabulaire dans divers environnements (de l imprimi aux riseaux informatiques) 1) Types et niveaux de contrtle du vocabulaire: - contrtle flexionnel, contrtle morpho-lexical, - contrtle terminologique, contrtle simantique 2) La gestion du vocabulaire : normes, mithodes, instruments, politiques, etc. 3) Le contrtle d autoriti des noms propres (personnes, organismes, lieux, ivinements, etc.) Both workshops will be held at the Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information, Universiti de Montrial, Pavillon Lionel-Groulx, 3150 Jean-Brillant Street, Montreal, Quebec. Cost for each workshop : 50 $ (IASC members) 60 $ (non membres) Registration deadline: Friday April 30, 1999 On Saturday, May 8 * Keynote presentation by Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professor at Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information de l Universiti de Montrial, and well known researcher in the field of indexing; * description and discussion of techniques used for indexing visual materials, a fast developing field of practice; * presentations of subject and name authority files used in various contexts (local, national, international); * round table on the theme: marketing your indexing services ; * general assembly of members of the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada. Half of the presentations will be made in English. You will find attached the registration form for the workshops and/or the activities of May 8. We hope that many of you will accept our invitation to participate in these activities, a good opportunity to update your knowledge on various subjects, to meet with colleagues, and to make new friends. See you soon, in Montreal. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE68CA.078E4780-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 00:09:04 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Lodging for IND. Conference Hello all; Is anyone interested in getting a weeks lodging for the Indiana Conference for about $150 per week? If so, please respond to Pdepri5514@aol.com, off list. Also, please put "IND. Lodging Conference" in the subject box, otherwise your email may be deleted as junk mail! :-) Patrick. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:45:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Brenda Herlevi Subject: Re: chapters of the bible In a message dated 99-03-05 05:35:58 EST, you write: << I agree with everyone who disagreed with me, now that I know it is a paper for/about homelessness. I am a new indexer just completing the USDA course and threw out my two cents/went out on a limb to learn something. Naomi >> Naomi -- that's why I'm here too -- I'm just working on getting started in this business, and lots of the posts here are "deeper" than my knowledge, but I'm sure learning lots! By the by, what do you think of the USDA course? Brenda ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:35:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Index "in the news" Did anyone else see ... ? An index made the front page of Friday March 5's Wall Street Journal. The "Minor Memos" in the Washington Wire column starts off wit= h mention of indexed subjects under Linda Tripp in the Lewinsky book. They= include "bent on betrayal," "malice and spite," and "supportive friend." Not a book I'll ever read, but good to see an index in the "spotlight." Judy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:56:19 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: chapters of the bible (now Chinese names) In-Reply-To: Library cataloguing rules (AACR2) use the comma, but it has always grated on me. I think I prefer it without the comma. On the other hand, the comma does let you know which is the surname. GLenda. > Chinese names, as we know, have the 'surname' first: thus Mao Zedong is > filed under 'M' rather than 'Z'. However many Chinese who live > in the West > have changed their names round in order to avoid confusion. Thus the > author Yung-fa Chen would have been known in China as Chen Yung-fa. > > The question is: in an index should his name appear as Chen, Yung-fa - ie > with a comma? Normally Chinese names would of course not have a comma. > > Regards > > Richard > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:56:18 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: automatic Web site indexing software In-Reply-To: Kevin mentioned software that automatically indexes websites, and the discussion moved on to Indexicon. But I am confused - is Indexicon now marketed for web indexing, or is that a totally different product? Glenda. > > If I'm reading it correctly the review listed is for a previous version of > Indexicon. It was originally included in Computer Shopper in Oct '96. > > Nancy Guenther > > At 10:15 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: > >It looks to me like Indexicon is now being marketed ... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:54:29 -0500 Reply-To: Gravitz Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gravitz Subject: Re: WordPerfect to Cindex In-Reply-To: <199903031810.NAA05086@mx.suffolk.lib.ny.us> The indexers on index-l came through again. I greatly appreciate the replies. I got back to the publisher ready to tell him that the conversion would be have to be done by Cindex. Before I could say anything, he told me that they would pay $100 for the entire job: indexing the new material and stripping and replacing the old references. And of couse they wanted both hard copies and diskette in alpha and page sorts. So I explained to him that Cindex could make the conversion and dropped it there. He thanked me and said that he'd contact me for other jobs in the future. Ina Gravitz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 18:43:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chandonnet /Soumah Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rencontre_g=E9n=E9rale_annuelle_de_la_SCAD?= Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BE68CA.55E66E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit L'INDEXATION : DE LA PRATIQUE @ LA RECHERCHE ... @ LA PRATIQUE! RENCONTRE GINIRALE ANNUELLE 1999 DE LA SCAD Veuillez prendre note que la rencontre ginirale annuelle 1999 de la SCAD aura lieu les 7 et 8 mai prochains ` Montrial (Quibec). Voici un apergu de ce que nous priparons pour vous. Le vendredi 7 mai : *deux ateliers de formation d une demi-journie : - Indexing 101, offert en anglais par Catherine Keenan et Christopher Blackburn (9h00 ` 12h00) "A workshop for indexers new, and not so new! An overview of the process of generating an index, from beginning to end. A chance to revisit the common work of all indexers: defining aboutness and pointing to it. The experienced workshop leaders will guide participants through hands-on indexing exercises, and will emphasize the characteristics of book indexes, periodical indexes and web indexes. Other topics which will be discussed include, but are not limited to: the time factor in the production of indexes, the client s input into the final form of the index, reference materials, indexing software, embedded indexing." - Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offert en frangais par Michhle Hudon (13h00 ` 17h00). De la nicessiti du contrtle du vocabulaire dans divers environnements (de l imprimi aux riseaux informatiques) Types et niveaux de contrtle du vocabulaire: - contrtle flexionnel, contrtle morpho-lexical, - contrtle terminologique, contrtle simantique La gestion du vocabulaire : normes, mithodes, instruments, politiques, etc. Le contrtle d autoriti des noms propres (personnes, organismes, lieux, ivinements, etc.) Les deux ateliers se tiendront ` l'Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information de l Universiti de Montrial, Pavillon Lionel-Groulx, 3150 Jean-Brillant, Montrial (Quibec). Co{t par atelier: 50 $ (membres de la SCAD) 60 $ (non-membres) Date limite d inscription : Vendredi le 30 avril 1999 Le samedi 8 mai : * confirence d ouverture donnie par Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professeure ` l Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information de l Universiti de Montrial et chercheure de renom dans le domaine de l indexation; * communications sur les techniques d indexation de l image, un domaine en pleine expansion; * prisentations de fichiers d autoriti des noms et des sujets en usage dans divers milieux (locaux, nationaux et internationaux); * table ronde sur le marketing des services d indexation offerts par des indexeurs indipendants; * assemblie ginirale des membres de la Sociiti canadienne pour l analyse des documents. Nous privoyons que la moitii des communications seront faites en frangais. Vous trouverez ci-joint le bulletin d inscription aux ateliers du 7 mai et/ou ` la journie du samedi 8 mai. Nous espirons que vous serez nombreux ` accepter notre invitation ` participer ` ces activitis qui vous donneront l occasion de vous ressourcer, de rencontrer vos collhgues et amis et d itablir de nouveaux contacts. @ bienttt, ` Montrial. 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========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 21:31:15 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jan Mucciarone Subject: Marketing Letters and SASE Just a quick question for all of you!! When sending out Marketing letters to publishers do you usually also send along a SASE so they may reply if they so desire? Thanks to all, Jan Mucciarone Elite Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 15:38:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: opening pdf w/ FrameMaker This is my day for questions! Anyone know if you can open pdf files w/ FrameMaker? I know that you can *create* them w/ FrameMaker, but would you need Acrobat to open one in order to edit it? Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:12:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: chapters of the bible In-Reply-To: <199903042001.MAA28104@neti.saber.net> Catherine Keenan wrote: >As to term selection, -- i don't know if this is a closed system or if new >issues of the paper are going to be added as the indexer works -- But in my >experience, most newpaper subject vocabularies are open-system, controlled, >and deliberately general. To use the earlier example: a story about >religion and capital punishment, I'd probably assign ethics and cp to it. >This is deliberately broad, because of the broad scope newspaper articles >can take. > >Anyway, my point is, there's no way you'd see a list of biblical references >in an index to newspapers because it's way too specific. For newspaper >articles, you can't index anything -- especially biblical quotations -- just >because it's there. > >This may seem ruthless, and I agree with Patricia that by not indexing these >references, we are going to lose something significant here -- but I don't >believe an index exists to explain the foundations of people's thoughts, -- >why they think what they think -- but only those thoughts themselves, the >content, the what. This is an open system perspective. Thank you so much for contributing to this thread. This is exactly what I was "feeling." , but because I've just started this volunteer indexing project and am a newbie I could not quite express why I thought it was inappropriate in this context to include the quotations. Thank you again. Naomi *****************************************************************************Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents <--Indexing students e-mail-list. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kat Hagedorn Subject: Classification Strategies Thanks to those folks who answered my previous question on the USDA course. Now I have another one. I'm not certain it's quite on topic, but I figured you're all such smart folks, it would be worth a shot! I'm interested in getting some recommendations on classification strategies and tools. I am working on a project to build a browsing interface for Early English documents. We're trying to find a good approach for creating and populating a topic tree to provide subject-based browsing -- one of our hurdles is building the topic tree in modern English when the documents are in Early English (and Welsh, Latin, Old French, etc.). We have been looking for thesauri or translation tools that will let us map the various languages to modern English. Additionally, we are interested in classification schemes that might cover this subject area better than LCSH, DDC or UDC would. Finally, we're planning to explore semi-automated solutions for indexing. I'm interested in finding out about software tools that will automatically classify the documents, or populate a manually created topic tree. We are aware of some products already, such as Verity's Content Classification Engine. We'd appreciate any advice or recommendations. Please reply to me and not the list. I will summarize responses for the entire list. Thanks very much! [Apologies for cross-posting.] ________________________________________ Kat Hagedorn :: Information Architect Argus Associates :: http://argus-inc.com 734-913-0010 :: kat@argus-inc.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:59:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: inconsistent terms What does everyone think about the following: I'm working on a software manual which uses certain terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to express the same thing. Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most preferred). I plan on using these *standard* terms for main headings, and then cross-reference to them from the synonyms. However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression "designed speed" within the text. The user may or may not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term appears elsewhere w/in the text. This must have been addressed before, but I don't remember it specifically. Any ideas? Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:32:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TShere7566@AOL.COM Subject: Reminder--Golden Gate indexing workshop There is still space available for our March 20 workshop to be given in Berkeley by Do Mi Stauber. Please join us--this is a not-to-be-missed opportunity! ASI GOLDEN GATE CHAPTER 16th ANNUAL CONFERENCE The American Society of Indexers--Golden Gate Chapter invites you to attend its annual full-day program on March 20, 1999. This year, we are thrilled to have freelance indexer Do Mi Stauber coming from Oregon to give her workshop titled FACING THE TEXT: CONTENT ANALYSIS AND ENTRY SELECTION IN SOCIAL SCIENCES AND HUMANITIES INDEXING This is a superb opportunity for professional development: no matter how long or short a time you have been indexing, you will find this session educational and stimulating. This is a participatory workshop which focuses on the practical processes of indexing. We will survey the steps that indexers follow as we interpret texts and create index structures, using examples and hands-on exercises from a range of real texts and indexes. The workshop covers back-of-the book indexing of both scholarly books and textbooks in the social sciences and humanities, but will be of value for indexers working in other areas as well. It is not a basic introduction to indexing, but novices as well as experienced indexers will benefit. Among subjects we will discuss are: main topics, indexable topics, index structure, subheads, cross references, and wording. You will go home with a full set of handouts to file away for future reference. Do Mi Stauber has been a full-time back-of-the-book indexer for the past eleven years. She managed Twin Oaks Indexing Collective for two years, supervising and training a group of indexers. She indexes scholarly books, textbooks and government documents in all of the social sciences and humanities. She chaired the judging committee for the 1998 Wilson Award, and is the author of "Jewels in the Cavern: The Special Challenge of Scholarly Indexing." DATE: Saturday, March 20, 1999 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. LOCATION: Berkeley City Club, 2315 Durant Ave., Berkeley, CA (510) 848-7800 COST: $80 ASI members, $95 nonmembers before March 8. After March 8, add $10. This workshop has not been subsidized by ASI-National, and we are offering it at or below cost. Morning pastries, fruit, and coffee, a delicious luncheon, and afternoon snacks and coffee are included. (Please let us know if you are a vegetarian.) REGISTRATION DEADLINE: March 8, 1999 Space is limited, so please register early to be sure of a place. SCHEDULE: 8:30 - 9:00 Registration, coffee, fruit and pastries 9:00 - 12:15 Workshop (with a fifteen-minute break at a convenient point) 12:15 - 1:45 Lunch, short business meeting, networking time 1:45 - 5:00 Workshop (with another break, with coffee, beverages and snacks available) TO REGISTER: Print out the form below and send it in by March 8 with your check for $80 (ASI members) or $95 (nonmembers), payable to ASI-Golden Gate, to: Blythe Woolston (510) 864-8667 776 Taylor Apt. B picapica@pacbell.net Alameda, CA 94501 For registration after March 8, please contact Blythe to see if there is space; add $10 to the cost if you register late. Requests for refunds must be received in writing by March 8; refunds will be sent within two weeks following the conference day and will be subject to a $25.00 processing fee. If you need to stay overnight in Berkeley, the historic Berkeley City Club itself has bed-and-breakfast rooms available on the workshop site. Call them at (510) 848-7800 for information and reservations. Another possibility is the Hotel Durant, three blocks away at 2600 Durant Ave. Their telephone number is (510) 845-8981. DIRECTIONS: From I-80, take the Ashby Ave. exit and take Ashby east to Shattuck. Turn left on Shattuck, then right on Durant (about 12 blocks). Go 2 blocks to the City Club on your left. Parking is available in a garage just west of the Club and in a lot just east of it. From Hwy. 13 or 24 follow signs for Berkeley. Continue west on Hwy. 13 (which becomes Ashby Ave.) to Shattuck. Turn right on Shattuck, then right on Durant as above. *PLEASE NOTE*: If you would like to attend the lunch/networking time only from 12:15 - 1:45, you may send in the form below and pay $22 (ASI members) or $25 (nonmembers). REGISTRATION FORM Please register ____ persons to attend the ASI-Golden Gate full-day workshop on March 20, 1999 in Berkeley. I enclose my check for $80 for each ASI member ($95 for each nonmember), payable to ASI-Golden Gate. ___I wish to attend the luncheon only from 12:15 - 1:45 p.m. I enclose my check for $22 (ASI members) or $25 (nonmembers). Name(s) ___________________________________________________________________ Address ____________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________________ __ Phone ______________________________ Email________________________________ In order to help Do Mi Stauber focus her presentation to the audience, please answer the following questions: How long have you been indexing? ______________________________________________ What types of materials do you index? ____________________________________________ What are your main areas/subjects of expertise? _____________________________________ Send this form to: Blythe Woolston, 776 Taylor Apt. B, Alameda, CA 94501 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:27:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Rofman Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Indexing for Project Gutenberg Regarding indexing for Project Gutenberg: As suggested I contacted Michael Hart and he asked what sort of index I meant when I offered to index non-fiction texts. Below is my reply and his response. I then agreed that there was no point if the information could be accessed more efficiently electronically but I thought a more experienced indexer might have a better answer as to the usefulness of such an index for an Etext. He agreed I might post that query here. Anyone? Rebecca "Michael S. Hart" wrote: > > On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Barry Rofman wrote: > > > Michael, > > > > A standard "back of the book" index such as you might find with any > > nonfiction book. That is, a way to identify and locate relevant > > information in the text with the indexed material being organized in a > > concise, systematic and helpful manner for the reader. > > > > Rebecca > > Please understand, I don't mean to let any air out of your balloon, > but what is to keep anyone from just searching the entire book in > one second for any reference they might find in such an index? > > > Apologies if I am being dense, here. . . . > > Thanks! > > So nice to hear from you!! > > Michael S. Hart > [hart@pobox.com] > Project Gutenberg > "Ask Dr. Internet" > Executive Director > Internet User ~#100 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 01:01:05 -0600 Reply-To: pcraine@interaccess.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Craine / Lisa Strubin Subject: New Subscriber Dear Sir/Madam: I am interested in subscribing to Index-l. Please send messages to pcraine@interaccess.com Thank you, pcraine ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:00:08 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: Re: opening pdf w/ FrameMaker You can do minor changes to PDFs in Acrobat Exchange (add pages, remove page, insert buttons), but more substantial changes need to be done in the FrameMaker file itself. You cannot open the PDF in Frame. (sorry!) :) christy Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > This is my day for questions! > > Anyone know if you can open pdf files w/ FrameMaker? > > I know that you can *create* them w/ FrameMaker, but > would you need Acrobat to open one in order to edit it? > > Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:01:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Forwarded Message I don't know about everyone else, but the forwarded message Sandi sent came out as a bunch of gibber- ish on my end. Could you please resend Sandi? I don't know if it may need to be reformatted or something. Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: automatic Web site indexing software I think Indexicon is for publications...I could be wrong, it has happened one or two times before ;-) But the product I was referring to is "Wisebot". Go to... http://www.tetranetsoftware.com Kevin Broccoli -----Original Message----- From: Jon & Glenda To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:36 AM Subject: Re: automatic Web site indexing software >Kevin mentioned software that automatically indexes websites, and the >discussion moved on to Indexicon. But I am confused - is Indexicon now >marketed for web indexing, or is that a totally different product? > >Glenda. >> >> If I'm reading it correctly the review listed is for a previous version of >> Indexicon. It was originally included in Computer Shopper in Oct '96. >> >> Nancy Guenther >> >> At 10:15 AM 3/5/99 -0800, you wrote: >> >It looks to me like Indexicon is now being marketed ... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:07:31 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Re: Forwarded Message I didn't keep it. It was a job posting that someone else had written. I could read it and assumed others could also. It was in Word. Sandi -----Original Message----- From: Kevin A. Broccoli To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 10:56 AM Subject: Forwarded Message >I don't know about everyone else, but the forwarded >message Sandi sent came out as a bunch of gibber- >ish on my end. > >Could you please resend Sandi? I don't know if it >may need to be reformatted or something. > >Kevin > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:37:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Catherine Keenan Subject: Re: Index "in the news" > An index made the front page of Friday March 5's Wall Street Journal. Let's pop a copy into the mail for the next issue of The Indexer! catherine indexer/hurdy gurdy player toronto ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: inconsistent terms Kevin, What you describe is an ongoing problem in technical books, especially when multiple authors and/or editors are involved. The difficulty with a See reference is that the reader will not find the indexed term on the page and will not know what the new term is unless they happened to start with that term and worked from the See reference to the new term. Here is where indexing becomes an art. Another option that I would lean toward in this situation is the use of See also references. Index the terms as they are and direct the reader to the other set of terms with See also references. The beauty of this option is that the index shows both terms in both places. The downside is that the reader must go to two places in the index. I will be interested to read how social science indexers and others deal with this situation. Richard Shrout Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > What does everyone think about the following: > > I'm working on a software manual which uses certain > terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to > express the same thing. > > Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list > of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most > preferred). > > I plan on using these *standard* terms for main > headings, and then cross-reference to them from > the synonyms. > > However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression > "designed speed" within the text. The user may or may > not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate > capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term > appears elsewhere w/in the text. > > This must have been addressed before, but I don't > remember it specifically. > > Any ideas? > > Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:45:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: automatic Web site indexing software In-Reply-To: <199903081202.re80la.hte.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 12:06 PM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >I think Indexicon is for publications...I could be wrong, it >has happened one or two times before ;-) Indexicon is an add-on for MS-Word that generates indexes from Word documents. To the extent that a Word Doc can be converted to a Web doc, you might say that Indexicon can index Web pages, too. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:50:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Index "in the news" In-Reply-To: <199903081652.IAA25140@decibel.electriciti.com> At 08:35 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: > Did anyone else see ... ? > An index made the front page of Friday March 5's Wall Street >Journal. The "Minor Memos" in the Washington Wire column starts off wit= >h >mention of indexed subjects under Linda Tripp in the Lewinsky book. They= > >include "bent on betrayal," "malice and spite," and "supportive friend." > I won't read the book, either, but would have edited the above entries to: betrayal, bent on malice/spite spite/malice friendship, supportive Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 09:54:02 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: inconsistent terms In-Reply-To: <199903081653.IAA25161@decibel.electriciti.com> At 10:59 AM 3/7/99 -0500, Kevin asked about: >What does everyone think about the following: > > >I plan on using these *standard* terms for main >headings, and then cross-reference to them from >the synonyms. Good choice. > >However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression >"designed speed" within the text. The user may or may >not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate >capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term >appears elsewhere w/in the text. Why not make the entry nameplate capacity (designated speed) which would help the index user hook up to the information on each page and maintain the integrity of the "standard terms." > Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: That hypothetical page.... OK, we've discussed per page charges for indexing, but what consitutes that "standard" page? Not what is an indexable page, but how big is this page we've been talking about? 81/2x11"? 7x9"? Type size? Word count? Does anyone want to start the discussion with a suggestion for this one? Is this the major factor in the variation in rates that we've heard? Iris Ailin-Pyzik ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: opening PDF with FrameMaker Kevin wrote: <> My understanding is that the latest version of Frame (5.5.6) can import PDF files (it treats them almost as if they are graphics, I think). I don't have that version, though, so I can't verify that, but here's what the Adobe site has to say: PDF import - With version 5.5.6, you can now place any page from an Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) file directly into a FrameMaker document (Power Macintosh and Windows only). You can include the PDF page by reference or copy it into the document. John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:13:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: Re: opening PDF with FrameMaker You're right! I have 5.5.6 and just tried it. Frame does treat it just like a graphic, though, so this won't help the editing process. :) christy John R. Sullivan wrote: > > Kevin wrote: > > < > I know that you can *create* them w/ FrameMaker, but > would you need Acrobat to open one in order to edit it?>> > > My understanding is that the latest version of Frame (5.5.6) can import PDF > files (it treats them almost as if they are graphics, I think). I don't have > that version, though, so I can't verify that, but here's what the Adobe site > has to say: > > PDF import - With version 5.5.6, you can now place any page > from an Adobe Portable Document Format (PDF) file > directly into > a FrameMaker document (Power Macintosh and Windows > only). > You can include the PDF page by reference or copy > it into the > document. > > John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:11:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: IASC Annual General Meeting At 06:40 PM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. > >------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE68CA.078E4780 >Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! >1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING > >We are pleased to announce that IASC Annual General Meeting will be held >on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal, Quebec. Here s an overview of what we have >in store for you. > ... >You will find attached the registration form for the workshops and/or the >activities of May 8. >0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAA >EAAAJgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////s >pcEAWQAMBAAAABK/AAAAAAAAEAAAAAAABAAAogYAAA4AYmpiavNX81cAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Gentlemen: Please send the registration form as an attachment; or please give me your web address. Many thanks! M. Jessie Barczak Washington, D.C. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:14:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: inconsistent terms Jan Wright also made the below suggestion. Much thanks Pam & Jan! In some cases, there are even up to 5 synonyms used! But I guess that happens when 4 or 5 different writers are used...as in this manual. Kevin >Why not make the entry > >nameplate capacity (designated speed) > >which would help the index user hook up to the information on each page and >maintain the integrity of the "standard terms." > >> > >Pam Rider >Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth >prider@electriciti.com >prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:26:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rowena Hart Subject: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns? Hello, I posted this question to the FrameMaker list but no one knew the answer. I'm hoping that someone on this list who has used Frame- Maker's indexing tools will be able to help me out... I am indexing a large document and I need to know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker to "carry over" subject headings across columns. Example: If I have 20 subentries under the heading "certificates" and 10 of these subentries flow from the bottom of column A to the top of column B, can I instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the heading "certificates, cont'd..." at the top of column B? Thanks in advance, Rowena ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowena Hart Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:37:45 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: Re: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns? Not that I know of--I do FrameMaker work for a translation company and we always have to insert the "continued"s by hand after we are finished with generating the index. Anybody else have a better answer? (I hope!) :) christy Rowena Hart wrote: > > Hello, > > I posted this question to the FrameMaker list > but no one knew the answer. I'm hoping that > someone on this list who has used Frame- > Maker's indexing tools will be able to help me > out... > > I am indexing a large document and I need to > know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker to > "carry over" subject headings across columns. > > Example: If I have 20 subentries under the heading > "certificates" and 10 of these subentries flow from > the bottom of column A to the top of column B, can > I instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the heading > "certificates, cont'd..." at the top of column B? > > Thanks in advance, > > Rowena > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rowena Hart Technical Writer > > Xcert International Inc. > 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 > Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 > Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 10:28:34 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: IASC Annual General Meeting In-Reply-To: <001001be68f3$f11cf120$ed0f35c6@Soumah> This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---559023410-1804928587-920917714=:14914 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=iso-8859-1 Content-ID: Hi, Could I suggest that members not post messages with attachments? These files are the source of many of the viruses that are lurking on the internet, so I routinely delete messages containing attachments without opening the attachment. I suspect others do the same, but perhaps I'm just being overly cautious? If so, I'll just continue to delete and not worry about it. Thanks, Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@interchange.ubc.ca On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, Chandonnet /Soumah wrote: > INDEXING : FROM PRACTICE TO RESEARCH ... AND BACK! > 1999 IASC ANNUAL GENERAL MEETING > > We are pleased to announce that IASC Annual General Meeting will be held > on May 7 and 8 1999 in Montreal, Quebec. Here s an overview of what we have > in store for you. > > On Friday, May 7 > > *Two half-day workshops : > > - Indexing 101 - offered in English by Catherine Keenan and Christopher > Blackburn (9:00 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.) > > A workshop for indexers new, and not so new! An overview of the process of > generating an index, from beginning to end. A chance to revisit the common > work of all indexers: defining aboutness and pointing to it. > > The experienced workshop leaders will guide participants through hands-on > indexing exercises, and will emphasize the characteristics of book indexes, > periodical indexes and web indexes. > > Other topics which will be discussed include, but are not limited to: the > time factor in the production of indexes, the client s input into the final > form of the index, reference materials, indexing software, embedded > indexing. > > - Gestion du vocabulaire et contrtle d autoriti, offered in French by > Michhle Hudon (1:30 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.). > > De la nicessiti du contrtle du vocabulaire dans divers environnements (de > l imprimi aux riseaux informatiques) > > 1) Types et niveaux de contrtle du vocabulaire: > - contrtle flexionnel, contrtle morpho-lexical, > - contrtle terminologique, contrtle simantique > > 2) La gestion du vocabulaire : normes, mithodes, instruments, politiques, > etc. > > 3) Le contrtle d autoriti des noms propres (personnes, organismes, lieux, > ivinements, etc.) > > Both workshops will be held at the Icole de bibliothiconomie et des sciences > de > l information, Universiti de Montrial, Pavillon Lionel-Groulx, 3150 > Jean-Brillant Street, Montreal, Quebec. > > Cost for each workshop : > 50 $ (IASC members) > 60 $ (non membres) > > Registration deadline: Friday April 30, 1999 > > On Saturday, May 8 > > * Keynote presentation by Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, professor at Icole de > bibliothiconomie et des sciences de l information de l Universiti de > Montrial, and well known researcher in the field of indexing; > > * description and discussion of techniques used for indexing visual > materials, a fast developing field of practice; > > * presentations of subject and name authority files used in various contexts > (local, national, international); > > * round table on the theme: marketing your indexing services ; > > * general assembly of members of the Indexing and Abstracting Society of > Canada. > > Half of the presentations will be made in English. > > You will find attached the registration form for the workshops and/or the > activities of May 8. > > We hope that many of you will accept our invitation to participate in these > activities, a good opportunity to update your knowledge on various subjects, > to meet with colleagues, and to make new friends. > > See you soon, in Montreal. > > The planning committee. > > > > ---559023410-1804928587-920917714=:14914 Content-Type: APPLICATION/MSWORD; NAME="Registration AGM.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAA EAAAJgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== ---559023410-1804928587-920917714=:14914-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:37:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: opening PDF with FrameMaker One additional note about Acrobat files -- PDF is a "final" output format. Although you can make extremely minor changes/corrections in Exchange using the Text tool, and there are tools to extract text and graphics from PDFs, you really shouldn't think of the PDF as something that can be edited. If you need to make substantive changes, do so in the source application (Frame, Word, whatever) and then re-convert to PDF. John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Fw: At 04:25 PM 3/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > ... >> ... >0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAA >EAAAJgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// >///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////s >pcEAWQAJBAAAABK/AAAAAAAAEAAAAAAABAAAngoAAA4AYmpiavNX81cAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >AAAJBBYAHhQAAJE9AQCRPQEAngYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD//w8AAAAA >AAAAAAD//w8AAAAAAAAAAAD//w8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAF0AAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAOgEAADoB >AAAAAAAAOgEAAAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAOgEAABQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE4BAAAAAAAATgEA >AAAAAABOAQAAAAAAAE4BAAAAAAAATgEAAAwAAABaAQAAFAAAAE4BAAAAAAAAMgwAALYAAAB6AQAA >AAAAAHoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAAAHoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAAAHoBAAAA >AAAAtAoAAEUBAAD5CwAAAAAAAPkLAAAAAAAA+QsAAAAAAAD5CwAAAAAAAPkLAAAAAAAA+QsAACQA >AADoDAAA9AEAANwOAAB2AAAAHQwAABUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOgEAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAA >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAAAHoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAAAB0MAAAAAAAA >mgEAAAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHoBAAAAAAAAe This does not translate ... please submit via an attachment ! Many thanks, M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. "This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this one?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:04:44 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: inconsistent terms Hi all, Richard is certainly correct that this is a common and potentially serious issue during the indexing process. I index both technical and social science subjects (more social science than technical) and come across this problem quite often. This is where it is crucial to know your subject and the appropriate vocabulary. Often, if there are very few locators (page references) involved I will simply double post the entries. That way I'm anticipating what different users might be looking up without forcing them from one entry to another. Obviously this won't work if there are numerous locators. In that case I will use the "See also" reference. Selecting the reference that I end up using is where accurate knowledge of your subject is crucial. When there are many authors, all using a variety of terms for the same subject, I will use 1. the term used by most of the authors 2. if there isn't one term which is obviously used more often I will try to select the term most often used within the discipline and which would be the most likely entry to be looked up by users. Regardless of which term I end up selecting I will also list the other terms used in the text and use a "See" reference to guide the user over to the term I have selected. I also try to use caution regarding combining similar but different terms. For example, I once indexed a book on government policies on drug enforcement. The text discussed both legalization of drugs and decriminalization. While the two terms are certainly related, they are also distinct from one another and it would have been a mistake to combine them under one entry with a "See" reference. Instead, I listed both terms separately with a "See also" reference to one another. The editor told me how pleased she was that I had listed them separately. Studies have shown that index users don't like to spend much time looking up terms. I see our job, at least in part, as creating an index which helps the user to look up the needed term as quickly and with the least amount of hassle to them as possible. Of course this means that we, as indexers, are stuck with having to deal with these vocabulary control issues. I have a recurring fantasy of asking authors (especially technical authors) "what were you thinking?" And I know that's never going to happen :). I'd be interested in hearing how other indexers handle this sticky and common problem. Best, Sylvia Coates Richard Shrout wrote: > Kevin, > > What you describe is an ongoing problem in technical books, especially > when multiple authors and/or editors are involved. > > The difficulty with a See reference is that the reader will not find the > indexed term on the page and will not know what the new term is unless > they happened to start with that term and worked from the See reference > to the new term. > > Here is where indexing becomes an art. Another option that I would lean > toward in this situation is the use of See also references. Index the > terms as they are and direct the reader to the other set of terms with > See also references. The beauty of this option is that the index shows > both terms in both places. The downside is that the reader must go to > two places in the index. > > I will be interested to read how social science indexers and others deal > with this situation. > > Richard Shrout > > Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > > > What does everyone think about the following: > > > > I'm working on a software manual which uses certain > > terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to > > express the same thing. > > > > Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list > > of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most > > preferred). > > > > I plan on using these *standard* terms for main > > headings, and then cross-reference to them from > > the synonyms. > > > > However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression > > "designed speed" within the text. The user may or may > > not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate > > capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term > > appears elsewhere w/in the text. > > > > This must have been addressed before, but I don't > > remember it specifically. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 13:53:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: inconsistent terms At 10:59 AM 3/7/99 -0500, you wrote: >What does everyone think about the following: > >I'm working on a software manual which uses certain >terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to >express the same thing. > >Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list >of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most >preferred). > >I plan on using these *standard* terms for main >headings, and then cross-reference to them from >the synonyms. > >However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression >"designed speed" within the text. The user may or may >not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate >capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term >appears elsewhere w/in the text. > >This must have been addressed before, but I don't >remember it specifically. > >Any ideas? > >Kevin Use the following: Nameplate capacity See also Designated speed if both terms are used. If only one term is the "correct" term (for example, Nameplate capacity), then choose that term and say: Designated speed See Nameplate capacity. This enters the realm of authority control, in the indexing/cataloguing parlay. M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. "This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this one?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:12:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... Page size and text density are among the first things I ask about when trying to determine rates. I would generally charge more for a two column 9X12 page in 9 pt type than a 7X9 one column page in 11 pt. type. Often (but not always) the denser text is also more technical. Per page price is actually something that I determine on a case-by-case basis. Even my potential interest (or lack thereof) with the topic, my appointment calendar, and the state of my bank account enters into the price quote to a certain extent. Such subjectivity is probably unprofessional, but I never saw any need to work out a pricing chart according to typographic specifications. Jeanne Moody ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:17:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lenity Mauhar Subject: upcoming indexing product Here's a snippet from a press release about a new automatic indexing utility. Adobe InDesign is a page layout product. It doesn't sound like we'll all soon be unemployed. ------------ Virginia Systems (virginiasystems.com) has announced an indexing companion for Adobe's upcoming InDesign, due to ship in mid-1999, following InDesign's release. Named Sonar Bookends InDesign, the $195 utility will be able to index based on word frequency, user-supplied word lists and automatic identification of proper nouns, according to the company. Other features include indexing across documents and multi-level sorting. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:00:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: IASC Annual General Meeting At 10:28 AM 3/8/99 -0800, you wrote: > This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, > while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. > Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. > >---559023410-1804928587-920917714=:14914 Please give us the URL of the webpage of the IASC. Thanks. M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. "This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this one?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 14:23:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: upcoming index product Lenity wrote: <> If I'm not mistaken, Sonar Bookends has been around for some time -- this is just a version ported to Adobe's new page layout tool. Keep an eye on such tools. In the not-too-distant future they may become sophisticated enough that people who are more interested in the bottom line than in quality indexing might be saying "Hey, the automatically generated index isn't great, but it will do!" John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 11:29:55 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jack Lewis Subject: Re: Job Op--O'Reilly & Associates This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6956.FDA36380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Claire Cloutier LeBlanc, I am responding to a post on Index-L. I am attaching my resume and a four page sample from an index that I did for Osborne McGraw-Hill. I would not be interested in relocating to Cambridge, but I would be open to going to Cambridge for a training period and could make occassional visits if needed. I have worked as a free lancer and have fould it very easy to handle questions and projects via e-mail and fax. I also believe that O'Reilly has an office in Sebastopol, CA. Sebastopol is about 45 minutes from where I live and would be very convenient for me to make visits to that office if necessary or useful. I had spoken with Frank Willison at the Sebastopol office about a year ago and he referred me to you. I have sent you my resume previously but I am including it again at this time. I have recently been investigating courses in Frame Maker as there is an increasing demand for embedded indexes. I am intending to extend my professional skills by learning both embedded indexing and Web indexing. I am looking forward to hearing from you. Thank you. Warmest regards, Jack Lewis -----Original Message----- From: Claire Cloutier LeBlanc To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, March 04, 1999 12:20 PM Subject: Job Op--O'Reilly & Associates >Associate Indexer Wanted > > >O'Reilly & Associates, Inc., a computer book publisher in Cambridge, MA, >seeks an associate indexer. Must be available to work on-site in our office >(some work may also be done at home). This position can be either full-time >or part-time. Benefits included. > >The Associate Indexer will create embedded-tag indexes in Framemaker and >possibly in other formats. Responsibilities include marking up hard copy, >inserting index tags in files, generating indexes from completed files, and >editing and revising indexes. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BE6956.FDA36380-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:42:04 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... I've been wondering the same thing. I hope there is some good discussion on this one. How many "words" constitute a "page"? Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:55:27 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BE697C.1588CA60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0071_01BE697C.1588CA60" ------=_NextPart_001_0071_01BE697C.1588CA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Continued lines have to be inserted manually in FrameMaker indexes. And you can *always* post your FrameMaker-related indexing questions to = this list. There are a couple indexing experts in this group. :-) - Seth =20 Seth Maislin=20 Focus Information Services=20 smaislin@world.std.com=20 -----Original Message----- From: Rowena Hart I am indexing a large document and I need to know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker to "carry over" subject headings across columns. Example: If I have 20 subentries under the heading "certificates" and 10 of these subentries flow from the bottom of column A to the top of column B, can I instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the heading "certificates, cont'd..." at the top of column B? ------=_NextPart_001_0071_01BE697C.1588CA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Continued lines have to be inserted = manually in=20 FrameMaker indexes.
 
And you can *always* post your FrameMaker-related = indexing=20 questions to this list. There are a couple indexing experts in this = group.=20 :-)
 
- Seth
 
3DSeth
Seth = Maislin=20
Focus Information Services
smaislin@world.std.com
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rowena Hart <rhart@XCERT.COM>

I am indexing a large = document and I=20 need to
know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker = to
"carry=20 over" subject headings across columns.

Example: If I have 20 = subentries under the heading
"certificates" and 10 of these = subentries flow from
the bottom of column A to the top of column B, = can
I=20 instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the heading
"certificates,=20 cont'd..." at the top of column B?
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At 12:58 PM 3/8/1999 -0500, Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote: >OK, we've discussed per page charges for indexing, but what consitutes that >"standard" page? Not what is an indexable page, but how big is this page >we've been talking about? >81/2x11"? 7x9"? Type size? Word count? Does anyone want to start the >discussion with a suggestion for this one? Is this the major factor in the >variation in rates that we've heard? Anything two-column is generally going to be denser , unless it has lots of artwork that doesn't have to be indexed. Smaller pages generally use a smaller typeface, so you frequently end up with just as many words on that 6 x 9 page as you do on an 8 x 12. The subject and the intensity level of presentation are bigger clues for me than actual page size. To a lesser extent, the amount of art and whether it will be indexed is also important. Another important factor: whether the book is scholarly (thus having, generally, fewer heads and other organizational guidelines) or a textbook (generally easier to index, because it is organized for students rather than professionals and has lots of heads, subheads, boldface terms, etc.). Of course, I've been tricked before, and probably will be again. I had a call some months ago to index a "tiny" nurse's guide that was to fit into a uniform pocket. How bad could this be, I said to myself. Luckily, I asked for sample pages, and when I got them, I saw. It was filled with tables, charts, lists...virtually every word had to be indexed! And when I quoted my "full page" rate, the editor was aghast. "But it's so tiny!" she said...and it was. Not much bigger than a 3 x 5 index card...crammed full of material on both sides. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:53:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: New workshop The workshop on Wednesday afternoon, entitled Publishing Essentials for Indexers with Barbara Cohen has been replaced by Publishing World 101 with Janet Perlman. The subject matter covered will be much the same and we are sure you will find your attendance beneficial. This workshop will orient the freelancer about the publishing industry and the book production process. Discuss and learn the terminology, the processes, and the technology. Find out what is probably most important to editors--and least important. We will start with the basics and end with a discussion of trends in the industry. Audience: Beginning to Intermediate Indexers who want to learn more about the industry they work in. Presenter: Janet Perlman has been indexing for more than 25 years. She began in publishing as an editorial assistant and then editorial supervisors with a major New York City publisher, and learned to index as part of her job. Janet specializes in scientific, medical, and engineering materials and also provides indexing services for Spanish-language materials. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:24:15 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Payjones@AOL.COM Subject: Subscribe SUB INDEX-L: Paula York Jones ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 10:01:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marsha Lofthouse Subject: Re: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns? This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE6A4E.7BA4E02E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rowena, As far as I know, there is no way to do what you want other than manually. Seth Maislin has a great document on his Web site (http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth/) titled "Tutorial on Index Tagging" that addresses creating an index using FrameMaker. In it he recommends waiting until you are certain (well, as certain as you can be) that the index is finished and the locator won't change, then manually edit the index file itself. This is a great tutorial on FrameMaker indexing. Thanks Seth! Marsha Lofthouse TargetSmart, Inc. mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com See our Web site at http://www.targetsmart.com -----Original Message----- From: Rowena Hart [mailto:rhart@XCERT.COM] Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:27 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns? Hello, I posted this question to the FrameMaker list but no one knew the answer. I'm hoping that someone on this list who has used Frame- Maker's indexing tools will be able to help me out... I am indexing a large document and I need to know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker to "carry over" subject headings across columns. Example: If I have 20 subentries under the heading "certificates" and 10 of these subentries flow from the bottom of column A to the top of column B, can I instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the heading "certificates, cont'd..." at the top of column B? Thanks in advance, Rowena ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowena Hart Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BE6A4E.7BA4E02E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across columns?

Rowena,

As far as I know, there is no way to do what you want = other than manually. Seth Maislin has a great document on his Web site = (http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/seth/) titled = "Tutorial on Index Tagging" that addresses creating an index = using FrameMaker. In it he recommends waiting until you are certain = (well, as certain as you can be) that the index is finished and the = locator won't change, then manually edit the index file itself. =

This is a great tutorial on FrameMaker indexing. = Thanks Seth!

Marsha Lofthouse
TargetSmart, Inc.
mailto:marsha_lofthouse@targetsmart.com
See our Web site at http://www.targetsmart.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Rowena Hart [mailto:rhart@XCERT.COM]
Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 11:27 AM
To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L
Subject: FrameMaker -- Carrying headings across = columns?


Hello,

I posted this question to the FrameMaker list
but no one knew the answer.  I'm hoping = that
someone on this list who has used Frame-
Maker's indexing tools will be able to help = me
out...

I am indexing a large document and I need to
know if it is possible to instruct FrameMaker = to
"carry over" subject headings across = columns.

Example: If I have 20 subentries under the = heading
"certificates" and 10 of these subentries = flow from
the bottom of column A to the top of column B, = can
I instruct FrameMaker to auto-generate the = heading
"certificates, cont'd..." at the top of = column B?

Thanks in advance,

Rowena
---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

Rowena Hart   Technical Writer

Xcert International Inc.
1001-701 West Georgia Street  Phone:  1 = (604) 640-6210
Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6  Fax: 1 (604) = 640-6220
Web: http://www.xcert.com    E-mail: = rhart@xcert.com

---------------------------------------------------------------= -------

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE6A4E.7BA4E02E-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 08:56:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... At 01:05 PM 3/8/99 -0800, you wrote: >At 12:58 PM 3/8/1999 -0500, Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik wrote: > >>OK, we've discussed per page charges for indexing, but what consitutes that >>"standard" page? Not what is an indexable page, but how big is this page >>we've been talking about? ... >Anything two-column is generally going to be denser , unless it has lots >of artwork that doesn't have to be indexed. Smaller pages generally use a >smaller typeface, so you frequently end up with just as many words on that 6 >x 9 page as you do on an 8 x 12. > >The subject and the intensity level of presentation are bigger clues for me >than actual page size. To a lesser extent, the amount of art and whether it >will be indexed is also important. Another important factor: whether the >book is scholarly (thus having, generally, fewer heads and other >organizational guidelines) or a textbook (generally easier to index, because >it is organized for students rather than professionals and has lots of >heads, subheads, boldface terms, etc.). > >Of course, I've been tricked before, and probably will be again. I had a >call some months ago to index a "tiny" nurse's guide that was to fit into a >uniform pocket. How bad could this be, I said to myself. Luckily, I asked >for sample pages, and when I got them, I saw. It was filled with tables, >charts, lists...virtually every word had to be indexed! And when I quoted my >"full page" rate, the editor was aghast. "But it's so tiny!" she said...and >it was. Not much bigger than a 3 x 5 index card...crammed full of material >on both sides. > > =Sonsie= Charge by the hour and erase the headaches and calculating. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:02:31 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Indexing for Project Gutenberg In-Reply-To: Barry Rofman wrote: > > Regarding indexing for Project Gutenberg: > > As suggested I contacted Michael Hart and he asked what sort of index I > meant when I offered to index non-fiction texts. Below is my reply and > his response. I then agreed that there was no point if the information > could be accessed more efficiently electronically but I thought a more > experienced indexer might have a better answer as to the usefulness of > such an index for an Etext. He agreed I might post that query here. Barry - I think the point to make is the difference between finding a word and finding a concept. If I look through the Etext of, say, the Life of James Nasmyth by Samuel Smiles (which is on the Gutenberg site) for the words "steam" or "engines" or "factory", I will find them well over a hundred times each. But only one of each of those will take me to the discussion of running many small steam engines by piping steam from a single large boiler, which is a technique that Nasmyth pioneered. Rather than my having to deal with 297 false drops, an index would allow me to go to steam piped to factory engines in only one hit. There are many other illustrative examples. To really make this work we need a way of identifying locations in text files - preferably a non-obtrusive way that doesn't require fiddling with the text. How about counting the number of characters from the beginning of the document (electronically, of course!)? Then the reference above could appear as steam piped to factory engines 11703 and a simple utility program could open the specified file and jump to the word beginning with that character. Jon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:43:37 -0800 Reply-To: choose1@wenet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Keys Organization: ChooseOne Services Subject: Re: inconsistent terms Kevin and All, It seems like you've been getting two different answers, both of which look good to me, but I'll throw you my 2 cents about deciding when to use which. One answer is to use a regular See cross reference from the non-standard term to the standard one and let it go at that. The other answer is to add the non-standard term in parentheses for clarification under the main entry. It seems to me that the difference lies in the reader's familiarity with the subject (as best you can predict). If the terms involved are "car" and "automobile," for example, leave out the synonym in parentheses. The reader will not be confused to find a reference under "automobile" and only find "car" in the text. But if the terms are obscure or you think the reader will not have read the text thoroughly and may not know that these terms are synonyms, then give them the extra help for clarification. Dontcha think? Karen Keys Kevin A. Broccoli wrote: > > What does everyone think about the following: > > I'm working on a software manual which uses certain > terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to > express the same thing. > > Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list > of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most > preferred). > > I plan on using these *standard* terms for main > headings, and then cross-reference to them from > the synonyms. > > However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression > "designed speed" within the text. The user may or may > not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate > capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term > appears elsewhere w/in the text. > > This must have been addressed before, but I don't > remember it specifically. > > Any ideas? > > Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Message timestamps Recently there was a message posted to the list that was a reply to an earlier one, but seemed to be timestamped earlier than the original message. Since I usually sort my messages by date, and I suspect most of us do, here is what is probably happening when you have a "new" message that seems way out of whack. I learned about this when a friend was replying to my messages and the timestamp was before my message to her. Note that your local clock will be right, even with this problem. In Win95, and I suspect Macs too, somewhere there is a timezone setting. Often this is not set correctly. One of the ones to the list recently was via a San Francisco internet provider, but appears to have a time zone setting (next to the date embedded in the message is a +/- to GMT) of GMT (it had +0000) so my system used this assumption to give it a time in my local timezone, which is of course wrong. I am told that many systems are set for Pacific time by default, since that is where the computer companies call home. So, in Win95, you can either go to Control Panel > Date & Time or double-click on the time in the system tray, and check your timezone via the timezone tab. Sorry, I haven't used a Mac in so long, I have no idea how to do this, but it should be however you set the system time. Iris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:11:31 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: inconsistent terms At 10:59 AM 3/7/99 -0500, Kevin Broccoli wrote: >What does everyone think about the following: > >I'm working on a software manual which uses certain >terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to >express the same thing. > >Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list >of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most >preferred). > >I plan on using these *standard* terms for main >headings, and then cross-reference to them from >the synonyms. > >However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression >"designed speed" within the text. The user may or may >not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate >capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term >appears elsewhere w/in the text. > >This must have been addressed before, but I don't >remember it specifically. > >Any ideas? Kevin: The method Pam suggested, designed speed. _See_ nameplate capacity . . . nameplate capacity (designed speed) . . . is the method that was suggested the first time I saw a discussion of this issue on this list. It struck me as an excellent idea then and I've used it ever since. No matter which term is used in the text, the reader can find it. Many thanks to whoever made this suggestion back then. I've indexed three equivalent terms as A (B/C) . . . B. _See_ A (B/C) C. _See_ A (B/C) and if there were more I'd include 'em the same way, putting the terms in the qualifier not in alphabetical order, necessarily, but in the order of most to least commonly used if there were clear differences. At 01:53 PM 3/8/99 -0500, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: > >Use the following: > > >Nameplate capacity > >See also > >Designated speed > > >if both terms are used. Jessie: The problem with indexing information under both terms and writing _See also_ references between them is that information pertaining to equivalent terms is made to look like information pertaining to related terms. As Sylvia pointed out, this is the method for indexing similar terms. If all information pertaining to equivalent terms is not gathered in one place, readers who are not interested in looking up information under what appears to be related terms may miss what's indexed under alternate but equivalent terms, and readers who _are_ interested in looking up information under what appears to be related terms may be mislead into thinking that there is some important distinction between terms that actually are equivalent. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:55:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: automated indexing All - John Sullivan wrote (re an Adobe product): "Keep an eye on such tools. In the not-too-distant future they may become sophisticated enough that people who are more interested in the bottom line than in quality indexing might be saying "Hey, the automatically generated index isn't great, but it will do!" I agreee absolutely. Some years ago, at an ASI conference that has faded into the dim netherworld of half-remembered events, I recall Nancy Mulvany making a presentation in which (I think) she discussed the need for Microsoft to improve the imbedded indexing module in Word. The point, if I remember it correctly, was that Microsoft had not really bothered to make a significant commitment of programming resources to the indexing module, but merely was keeping up with the competition. The old "If they've got it then we must have it also" philosophy. My recollection is that Nancy felt that Microsoft, et al, should get with it and develop really useful, workable, indexing modules for their products. At the time I was reminded of the old Aesop fable of the woodsman who goes into the forest with only an axehead, and cries to the trees that he is a poor woodcutter who can't make ends meet because he is without an axe handle, and that his family is poor and his children are hungry. The trees take pity on him, and one drops a suitable branch. The woodsman fits the branch into his axehead, and then proceeds to chop down the forest. So much for irrational acts of kindness. Now my point, of course, is that in my opinion urging Microsoft on to greater success in developing automatic indexing capabilities is... well... suicidal. Now at this juncture I must explicitly state that I am not criticizing Nancy, and that I have the greatest respect for her professionalism and for her judgment. I might have remembered that meeting incorrectly, and I do not want to start anything remotely like a contentious thread with her, or with Index-L in general. I believe that her point was that if indexers are going to be forced to work with imbedded indexing, their lives would be much easier if the wretched modules worked well. But as I reflect on the evolution (devolution?) of publishing during the years since that ASI conference, I am reinforced in my oft-stated conviction that publishing is not anything like 84 Charing Cross Road anymore, that the industry is overwhelmingly market-driven, and that books are moving from being cherished to being merely ephemeral commodities. Certainly most technical books seem to be so. I never have been an in-house editor, so I speak only from inferences, not from experience. Always dangerous. But my sense is that editors increasingly are pressured to strike often impossible balances between cost, schedule and quality. Even editors of impeccable professionalism and good conscience must make compromises that truly are Hobson's choices. I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of marriage as "a compromise that satisfies neither party." So it seems that the editorial criterion for indexes is becoming (has become?) one of "In good conscience, is it good enough?" Not is it the best, or the most gracefully structured, or the most comprehensive, or the most reader- friendly, but "Is it good enough?" In this climate I find it difficult to believe that most harried, pressured, editors would not welcome an adequate automated indexing capability, available to in-house editors and to authors, that will generate an updatable index that meets some basic requirements for functionality. Of course not all books will lend themselves to automated indexing. I shudder to think of how the output of such a program would compare to one of Hazel bell's exquisitely-crafted biographical indexes. A machine that attempted to index John McPhee's "Annals of the Former World" probably would melt down into a smoking heap of slag. There always will be some need for professional indexers. But technology has an energy and a momentum of its own, and no latter-day Luddites will stop the relentless enveloping of our lives (I hope not our souls) by the digital tsunami. So John's cautionary comment is, in my view, entirely appropriate. Don't know just what we can do with this insight. Might be somewhat like the Asteroid doomsday flicks, in which the astronomer says: "Three days, five hours and twenty minutes to impact." Not that precise, of course, but still useful to keep one eye on the heavens, looking for new software modules that are on Indexer-Crossing orbits. Hey! Let's hear it for the dinosaurs! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 15:21:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jack Lewis Subject: Apology This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE6977.5AA5E9C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Apologies! I sent my response to the O'Reilly job offering to the whole = list. I guess that is one way to get a resume out- albeit an embarassing = one! Thanks to those who notified me of the error. =20 Jack ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE6977.5AA5E9C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Apologies! I sent my response to the O'Reilly job = offering to=20 the whole list. I guess that is one way to get a resume out- albeit an=20 embarassing one! Thanks to those who notified me of the = error.
 
Jack
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BE6977.5AA5E9C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 16:46:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "M. Jessie Barczak" Subject: Re: Fw: At 04:25 PM 3/5/99 -0600, you wrote: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >mgEAAAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAACa >AQAAAAAAAJoBAAAAAAAAmgEAAAAAAAB6AQAAFgAAADoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAAHoB >AAAAAAAAtAoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATgEAAAAAAABOAQAAAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAOgEA >AAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAADoBAAAAAAAAegEAAAAAAAC0CgAAAAAAAJoBAADMBAAAmgEAAAAAAABmBgAA >GgEAAM4JAADMAAAAOgEAAAAAAAA6AQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAtAoAAAAAAAB6AQAAAAAAAG4BAAAMAAAAwEvNPVhn >vgFOAQAAAAAAAE4BAAAAAAAAkAEAAAoAAACaCgAAGgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARkVE >RVJBTCBBTkQgU1RBVEUgVEFYDQ1Qb3NpdGlvbjogU2VuaW9yIEluZGV4ZXIJCQkJR3JhZGUgMTYN >RGVwYXJ0bWVudDogRmVkZXJhbCBUYXggU2VydmljZQkJCUxvY2F0aW9uOiBSaXZlcndvb2RzDVJl >cG9ydHMgdG86IFBhbSBDYXJyb24gDQ1SZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0aWVzOg0NR2VuZXJhdGVzIGFuZCBt >YWludGFpbnMgaW5kZXggZm9yIEZlZGVyYWwgVGF4IFNlcnZpY2UgKEZUUykgYW5kIG90aGVyIEZl I can't read your message. Please send as attachment or as ASCII text! M. J. Barczak Washington, D.C. "This is me in a nut shell; Help! I'm in a nut shell! how did I get into this nutshell? What kind of nut has a shell like this one?" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:50:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: inconsistent terms In-Reply-To: <199903081859.KAA00207@decibel.electriciti.com> Here, here! to Sylvia about sensitivity to related, but different terms. But, I have had to deal with long and convoluted disease nomenclature. There's a serious craniofacial anomalous condition, now known as Robin sequence. I indexed a book on cleft palates with six highly opinionated designations for this. It used to be Pierre Robin syndrome or Robin syndrome, so those are routinely made into See entries. But, some of the eggheads insisted it be a long string (sequence, ya know) of multisyllabic specifics. Each and all of these referred to the very same thing. I am not a bit sorry I squawked about this. So what that an indexer gets a headache and spends time that could never be billed in sorting it out, the readers lose because of such sloppiness. Once not so long ago, the academic editor(s) of contributed books were expected to enforce consisency among and between chapters. Some continue to care enough to do it. It's not an unrealistic goal and I work for it when copyediting, but that stage is a little late. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 22:25:46 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Marketing Letters and SASE In-Reply-To: > When sending out Marketing letters to publishers do you usually also send > along a SASE so they may reply if they so desire? No. I regard my marketing letters as announcements. I think if they find an SASE they will be wondering what question they missed when reading my letter. In fact I am rather surprised (not unpleasantly) that so many publishers do reply when really they have nothing to say except that they will put my name on a file. Perhaps it is regarded as the polite thing to do. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:28:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maria Coughlin Subject: Well Done, Whoever You Are In-Reply-To: <199903050508.WAA01108@indexing.com> I've finally had a chance to catch up on some professional development reading, and I've noticed a few instances in which indexes were praised in book reviews, so I thought I'd pass the comments along to the list, in case subscribers recognize books that they indexed, and thus deserve the praise for. From JAMA (The Journal of the American Medical Association): February 10, 1999, in the review of *Euthanasia and Law in the Netherlands* (Griffiths et al., University of Michigan Press, 1998), the reviewer praises the entire book, and mentions specifically "a comprehensive list of cited literature and a detailed index..." January 27, 1999, in the review of *The Science and Practice of Pediatric Cardiology* (Garson et al., eds., Williams and Wilkins, 1998), the reviewer states "The index is also helpfully arranged and complete." I think this was a nice thing to say, but I'm puzzled about the "helpfully arranged." Is there some helpful arrangement other than alphabetical order? Or did the reviewer mean to praise the heading/subheading relationships? Hmm. From CBE Views: Nov-Dec 1998, in CBE ReViews, Frances Porcher reviews the *American Medical Association Manual of Style* (Flanagin et al., Williams and Wilkins 1998), and she states "The index seems particularly thorough and easy to use, topically and typographically." Congrats to you indexers who did such good jobs that your work was noticed by the reviewer! I have actually accumulated stacks of similar reviewer comments, going back one or two years, and unless subscribers to the list scream for mercy, I'll post a few occasionally, when I'm desperately avoiding some dreadful indexing project. Maria Coughlin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:05:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information, Inc. Subject: Quark Indexing Is anyone out there indexing sucessfully with Quark Express? That is, indexing only with the Quark indexing utility, not indexing in Cindex, Macrex, or SKYIndex and then embedding the entries in the Quark files. Thanks, Ann -- Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 17:02:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Broccoli- change of e-mail address Hello, I have changed my e-mail address and wanted to let you know. The new address is: brocindx@in4web.com (I am sending this via my old address, but soon will not be using it any longer.) Please update your address book(s). Hope to hear from you soon! Kevin Broccoli Broccoli Information Management brocindx@in4web.com http://www.bim.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:01:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Audiotapes Several people have contacted me about providing audiotapes/transcripts of the upcoming ASI conference. So I would like to take an informal poll so that I can make an informed decision. The tapes would be available at a reasonable price. I will be attending the ASI conference but I would also like to purchase some audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. I will not be attending the ASI conference, but I would purchase some audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. Please reply directly to me. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI Sandindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:22:04 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Chris Bittle Subject: Re: Audiotapes I shall not be attending the conference but would be definitely interested in audio tapes of most if not all of the sessions. Thanks, Christine M. Bittle Oklahoma Dept. of Libraries Oklahoma City, OK 73105 cbittle@oltn.odl.state.ok.us Sandi Schroeder wrote: > Several people have contacted me about providing audiotapes/transcripts of > the upcoming ASI conference. So I would like to take an informal poll so > that I can make an informed decision. The tapes would be available at a > reasonable price. > > I will be attending the ASI conference but I would also like to purchase > some audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. > > I will not be attending the ASI conference, but I would purchase some > audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. > > Please reply directly to me. > > Sandi Schroeder > Vice President, ASI > > Sandindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:23:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199903091508.reavue.7lc.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> I think we need to clarify one point here.... embedded indexing is different than automatically generated indexing. Word's embedded indexing module can be used to insert hand-crafted indexes into Word files. Word also has a concordance generator- an automatic index generator that is nearly useless for indexing. It is a different module. So when Nancy Mulvany was talking about improving the embedded indexing module in Word, she was talking about making it easier for us as indexers to create and write fine indexes in Word -- she wasn't supporting the concordance concept. The module for embedded indexing does not lend itself well to our ways of working. Jan Wright At 06:55 PM 3/8/99 EST, you wrote: >All - > >John Sullivan wrote (re an Adobe product): > >"Keep an eye on such tools. In the not-too-distant future they may become >sophisticated enough that people who are more interested in the bottom line >than in quality indexing might be saying "Hey, the automatically generated >index isn't great, but it will do!" > >I agreee absolutely. Some years ago, at an ASI conference that has faded into >the dim netherworld of half-remembered events, I recall Nancy Mulvany making a >presentation in which (I think) she discussed the need for Microsoft to >improve the imbedded indexing module in Word. > >The point, if I remember it correctly, was that Microsoft had not really >bothered to make a significant commitment of programming resources to the >indexing module, but merely was keeping up with the competition. The old "If >they've got it then we must have it also" philosophy. My recollection is that >Nancy felt that Microsoft, et al, should get with it and develop really >useful, workable, indexing modules for their products. > >At the time I was reminded of the old Aesop fable of the woodsman who goes >into the forest with only an axehead, and cries to the trees that he is a poor >woodcutter who can't make ends meet because he is without an axe handle, and >that his family is poor and his children are hungry. The trees take pity on >him, and one drops a suitable branch. The woodsman fits the branch into his >axehead, and then proceeds to chop down the forest. > >So much for irrational acts of kindness. > >Now my point, of course, is that in my opinion urging Microsoft on to greater >success in developing automatic indexing capabilities is... well... >suicidal. Now at this juncture I must explicitly state that I am not >criticizing Nancy, and that I have the greatest respect for her >professionalism and for her judgment. I might have remembered that meeting >incorrectly, and I do not want to start anything remotely like a contentious >thread with her, or with Index-L in general. > >I believe that her point was that if indexers are going to be forced to work >with imbedded indexing, their lives would be much easier if the wretched >modules worked well. > >But as I reflect on the evolution (devolution?) of publishing during the years >since that ASI conference, I am reinforced in my oft-stated conviction that >publishing is not anything like 84 Charing Cross Road anymore, that the >industry is overwhelmingly market-driven, and that books are moving from being >cherished to being merely ephemeral commodities. Certainly most technical >books seem to be so. > >I never have been an in-house editor, so I speak only from inferences, not >from experience. Always dangerous. But my sense is that editors increasingly >are pressured to strike often impossible balances between cost, schedule and >quality. Even editors of impeccable professionalism and good conscience must >make compromises that truly are Hobson's choices. > >I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of marriage as "a compromise that >satisfies neither party." > >So it seems that the editorial criterion for indexes is becoming (has become?) >one of "In good conscience, is it good enough?" Not is it the best, or the >most gracefully structured, or the most comprehensive, or the most reader- >friendly, but "Is it good enough?" > >In this climate I find it difficult to believe that most harried, pressured, >editors would not welcome an adequate automated indexing capability, available >to in-house editors and to authors, that will generate an updatable index that >meets some basic requirements for functionality. > >Of course not all books will lend themselves to automated indexing. I shudder >to think of how the output of such a program would compare to one of Hazel >bell's exquisitely-crafted biographical indexes. A machine that attempted to >index John McPhee's "Annals of the Former World" probably would melt down into >a smoking heap of slag. > >There always will be some need for professional indexers. But technology has >an energy and a momentum of its own, and no latter-day Luddites will stop the >relentless enveloping of our lives (I hope not our souls) by the digital >tsunami. > >So John's cautionary comment is, in my view, entirely appropriate. Don't know >just what we can do with this insight. Might be somewhat like the Asteroid >doomsday flicks, in which the astronomer says: "Three days, five hours and >twenty minutes to impact." Not that precise, of course, but still useful to >keep one eye on the heavens, looking for new software modules that are on >Indexer-Crossing orbits. > >Hey! Let's hear it for the dinosaurs! > >Bob > +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 12:49:43 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita York Subject: Re: New workshop How do I find out more info on the Publishing 101 workshop? -----Original Message----- From: Sandi Schroeder To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:08 PM Subject: New workshop >The workshop on Wednesday afternoon, entitled Publishing Essentials for >Indexers with Barbara Cohen has been replaced by Publishing World 101 with >Janet Perlman. The subject matter covered will be much the same and we are >sure you will find your attendance beneficial. > >This workshop will orient the freelancer about the publishing industry and >the book production process. Discuss and learn the terminology, the >processes, and the technology. Find out what is probably most important to >editors--and least important. We will start with the basics and end with a >discussion of trends in the industry. > >Audience: Beginning to Intermediate Indexers who want to learn more about >the industry they work in. > >Presenter: Janet Perlman has been indexing for more than 25 years. She began >in publishing as an editorial assistant and then editorial supervisors with >a major New York City publisher, and learned to index as part of her job. >Janet specializes in scientific, medical, and engineering materials and also >provides indexing services for Spanish-language materials. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 12:47:27 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: inconsistent terms This message is a duplicate (plus an additional response) of one I sent yesterday that did not go through as far as I can tell. Sorry if I've plagued anybody with two copies. At 10:59 AM 3/7/99 -0500, Kevin Broccoli wrote: >What does everyone think about the following: > >I'm working on a software manual which uses certain >terms, and later in the manual *different* terms to >express the same thing. > >Realizing this, the editor has provided me with a list >of *standard* terms (that is to say, the ones most >preferred). > >I plan on using these *standard* terms for main >headings, and then cross-reference to them from >the synonyms. > >However, I worry about the user looking up, for example, > "nameplate capacity" and only finding the expression >"designed speed" within the text. The user may or may >not know that they are one and the same. Yet "nameplate >capacity" is the chosen, *standard* term...and this term >appears elsewhere w/in the text. > >This must have been addressed before, but I don't >remember it specifically. > >Any ideas? Kevin: The method Pam suggested, designed speed. _See_ nameplate capacity . . . nameplate capacity (designed speed) . . . is the method that was suggested the first time I saw a discussion of this issue on this list. It struck me as an excellent idea then and I've used it ever since. No matter which term is used in the text, the reader can find it. Many thanks to whoever made this suggestion back then. I've indexed three equivalent terms as A (B/C) . . . B. _See_ A (B/C) C. _See_ A (B/C) and if there were more I'd include them in the same way, putting the terms in the qualifier not in alphabetical order, necessarily, but in the order of most to least commonly used if there were clear differences. (See also question on Pam's follow-up message below.) At 01:53 PM 3/8/99 -0500, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: > >Use the following: > > >Nameplate capacity > >See also > >Designated speed > > >if both terms are used. Jessie: The problem with indexing information under both terms and writing _See also_ references between them is that information pertaining to equivalent terms is made to look like information pertaining to related terms. As Sylvia pointed out, this is the method for indexing similar terms. If all information pertaining to equivalent terms is not gathered in one place, readers who are not interested in looking up information under what appears to be related terms may miss what's indexed under alternate but equivalent terms, and readers who _are_ interested in looking up information under what appears to be related terms may be mislead into thinking that there is some important distinction between terms that actually are equivalent. At 12:50 PM 3/8/99 -0800, Pam Rider wrote: > >. . . I have had to deal with long and convoluted disease nomenclature. >There's a serious craniofacial anomalous condition, now known as Robin >sequence. I indexed a book on cleft palates with six highly opinionated >designations for this. It used to be Pierre Robin syndrome or Robin >syndrome, so those are routinely made into See entries. But, some of the >eggheads insisted it be a long string (sequence, ya know) of multisyllabic >specifics. Each and all of these referred to the very same thing. Pam: This sounds like it might have been much too much to deal with in a qualifier, so how did you handle the long designations? TIA, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:12:08 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated indexing ROBJRICH@AOL.COM expressed concern that automated indexing tools might one day replace human indexers; but in doing so, he equated *automated* indexing with *embedded* indexing. "Automated indexing"--computers creating index entries--refers to some process by which a computer SEARCHES for terms that might be important. The results, such as concordances and full-text search, vary widely in terms of usefulness and quality. "Embedded indexing"--computers compiling indexes--refers to some process by which a computer STORES index entries at the point where the information is found. Examples include Word's XE fields, WinHelp's K footnotes, and HTML Indexer's comment blocks. The results are as useful as the human indexer makes them. The advantage of embedded indexing is that the human indexer can focus on the entries, leaving the computer to calculate page numbers or URLs. Computers are pretty lame at creating index entries, but they're really good at compiling indexes. To avoid confusion, think of it this way: Embedded indexing is good. Automated indexing is evil. I hope this clears things up. ;) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:18:03 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing Jan Wright wrote that many program's modules for embedded indexing do not lend themselves well to indexers' way of working. Products like IXgen (for FrameMaker) and HTML Indexer (for HTML files) address these shortcomings in UI design, giving indexers a more natural environment in which to create index entries. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:29:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Annual Rant on Replies Here it is: Please look at the TO: field on your email messages BEFORE you click the send button. Lately there has been an overwhelming number of posts sent to index-l even though the original post clearly states: Reply directly to ________ . For example, on the "Audiotapes" thread, the original message clearly states: > Please reply directly to me. > > Sandi Schroeder > Vice President, ASI > > Sandindex@xsite.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:37:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Sweeney Subject: Embedded indexes using Quark I have used previous versions of QuarkXpress for page layout. Now I've upgraded to Quark 4.0 and have an interest in indexing. From experimenting with the indexing module and lurking on Index-L, I understand that the best route (if using Quark is my goal) is to use indexing software (Cindex, Macrex, Sky) to index, and to use Quark to embed the index. Do I have it right so far? When I practiced the embedding in Quark, it seemed very primitive. I could define my own terms for entries for selected text, but had trouble selecting appropriate text for sub-entries. I won't even try to describe the index that was generated from my efforts--Quark documentation says things like "it is unlikely that you will be absolutely happy with the first index you build. You can solve some issues by editing and rebuilding the index, while other issues will require local formatting of the index text." And "When you have an index you are happy with--and are almost certain the publication will not change--you can often still improve your index with local formatting." The problem is that I thought the purpose of embedded indexes was to allow for publication changes, so local formatting should never be an option. Am I answering my own question? Does the Quark indexing module work in an environment I'm not envisioning, or is it just not a viable tool for indexing? Sharon Sweeney Hohner Word Design ssweeney@midusa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:47:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Audiotapes In-Reply-To: <199903091510.reb00t.utq.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> At 02:01 PM 3/9/99 -0600, you wrote: >Several people have contacted me about providing audiotapes/transcripts of >the upcoming ASI conference. So I would like to take an informal poll so >that I can make an informed decision. The tapes would be available at a >reasonable price. > > >I will be attending the ASI conference but I would also like to purchase >some audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. This came up last year. Simple audio tapes of unstructured sessions are of little value to anyone who was not there. I don't recommend getting into it. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:49:13 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: HTML Indexer About HTML Indexer, Glenda Browne wrote: > > I have finally had the opportunity to take a closer look at it, > and am delighted with what I find. ... this program does for web > indexing what Macrex, Cindex, and SkyIndex do for print indexing. > > ... you can download the tutorial and a demo version of the program > (functional except it can't save) from http://www.html-indexer.com. Thanks for those kind words, Glenda! I hope indexers will feel comfortable in HTML Indexer. To clarify one point: The only difference between the demo and the registered software is that the demo does not embed your enhanced index entries in the HTML source files. You can still create a finished index that is identical to the output of the registered software. (In a project of more than a few pages, of course, you will want to embed the entries so your index can easily be maintained. To do so, you need to register HTML Indexer. See the "read-me" file for details.) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:10:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Re: New workshop What else would you like to know? The basic cost is $55 for ASI members and $65 for non ASI members who register before May 9. In order to register, write it in on the registration form. Sandi Schroeder -----Original Message----- From: Anita York To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:48 PM Subject: Re: New workshop >How do I find out more info on the Publishing 101 workshop? >-----Original Message----- >From: Sandi Schroeder >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:08 PM >Subject: New workshop > > >>The workshop on Wednesday afternoon, entitled Publishing Essentials for >>Indexers with Barbara Cohen has been replaced by Publishing World 101 with >>Janet Perlman. The subject matter covered will be much the same and we are >>sure you will find your attendance beneficial. >> >>This workshop will orient the freelancer about the publishing industry and >>the book production process. Discuss and learn the terminology, the >>processes, and the technology. Find out what is probably most important to >>editors--and least important. We will start with the basics and end with a >>discussion of trends in the industry. >> >>Audience: Beginning to Intermediate Indexers who want to learn more about >>the industry they work in. >> >>Presenter: Janet Perlman has been indexing for more than 25 years. She >began >>in publishing as an editorial assistant and then editorial supervisors with >>a major New York City publisher, and learned to index as part of her job. >>Janet specializes in scientific, medical, and engineering materials and >also >>provides indexing services for Spanish-language materials. >> > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 17:14:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: automated vs. embedded indexing All - Jan Wright is correct. Automatic indexing and imbedded indexing are quite different. I apologize for any ambiguity in my posting. I did say: >..... I recall Nancy Mulvany making a presentation in which (I think) she discussed the need for Microsoft to improve the imbedded indexing module in Word< - snip - >I believe that her point was that if indexers are going to be forced to work with imbedded indexing, their lives would be much easier if the wretched modules worked well.< But imbedded indexing modules and automatic concordance indexing are not the thrust of my concern. We all have thrown up our hands at the intractability of various imbedded indexing modules, and despaired at el-cheapo "automatic" concordance indexes with strings of thirty or forty undifferentiated locators. It is the movement (perhaps "thrust" is too strong a word) toward more sophisticated automatic indexing that I was speaking about in my posting. My sense is that the syntactical and conceptual difficulties are so formidable that true automatic indexing, at this time, is only a barely-discernable speck on the farthest horizon. But things have a way of changing rather quickly in our accelerating megatech world. Perhaps the challenge of being first to develop a workable automatic indexing module will prove irresistable to some digital Edmund Hillary. As Yeats said: ''And what rough beast, it's hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"** Bob **Yeats also said (in "The Second Coming"): The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." Might have been taken from today's op-ed pages. The man surely had a way with words...... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:30:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sandi Schroeder Subject: Replacement workshop My original message may not have been posted on Index-L. So I am reposting it. I apologize if you have already seen this message. There is a new workshop on Wednesday afternoon, entitled Publishing World 101, with Janet Perlman. It replaces the one entitled Publishing Essentials for Indexers with Barbara Cohen. The subject matter covered will be much the same and we are sure you will find your attendance beneficial. This workshop will orient the freelancer about the publishing industry and the book production process. Discuss and learn the terminology, the processes, and the technology. Find out what is probably most important to editors--and least important. We will start with the basics and end with a discussion of trends in the industry. Audience: Beginning to Intermediate Indexers who want to learn more about the industry they work in. Presenter: Janet Perlman has been indexing for more than 25 years. She began in publishing as an editorial assistant and then editorial supervisors with a major New York City publisher, and learned to index as part of her job. Janet specializes in scientific, medical, and engineering materials and also provides indexing services for Spanish-language materials. Sandi Schroeder Vice President, ASI ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:37:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Well Done, Whoever You Are At 05:28 PM 3/8/1999 -0500, Maria Coughlin wrote: >January 27, 1999, in the review of *The Science and Practice of Pediatric >Cardiology* (Garson et al., eds., Williams and Wilkins, 1998), the reviewer >states "The index is also helpfully arranged and complete." I think this >was a nice thing to say, but I'm puzzled about the "helpfully arranged." Is >there some helpful arrangement other than alphabetical order? Or did the >reviewer mean to praise the heading/subheading relationships? Hmm. I'm pretty sure the index was alphabetical, but I bet the indexer took the time (and had the skill) to create useful "pull out" headings for important groups of information (all of one type of drug, etc.) that were not otherwise grouped in the text, but that a doctor would find very helpful. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:37:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... At 08:56 AM 3/9/1999 -0500, M. Jessie Barczak wrote: >Charge by the hour and erase the headaches and calculating. Unfortunately, Jessie, most publishers won't pay what I would charge per hour. Even though they would pay the same amount to have me index the book whether I charge by the page or by the hour, the rate would throw them into shock. And, after all these years, I'm almost never too far off in my calculations of how long a job will take, factoring in all those oddments of type page, column width, artwork, heads, etc. Besides, most publishers I work with expect to be quoted per page. An hourly rate just confuses things. I'm sure others do it differently... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:59:38 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... Re rates: My experience is similar to Sonsie's. If I quoted by the hour, my clients would go away, because (a) it isn't the norm, and (b) the figure would appear very high. Actually, for back-of-the-book indexes it works out to the same figure. I too can estimate pretty well what it would take, timewise, to do a particular index. It would cost the client the same whether quoted per page or per hour. But the industry norm is per indexable page or per entry. Over the years I have only had 1 client who paid by the hour. Bear in mind that for embedded indexing, and perhaps in certain specialties, this practice of per-page rates might not be prevalent, and a per-hour rate might be the norm. This is my experience, though. Consider the editor's position. With a per-page rate, he/she knows right off the bat how much it will cost to get the index done, and whether he/she is staying within budget. When you ask for an hourly rate, you are asking for an open-ended dollar figure -- to be determined. This is bound to make the client uncomfortable. The client needs to know that you are not too expensive. You will probably not get the job, or not get called again. Best to stick with industry practice. There is no workaround for a fair and equitable rate. No point in trying to disguise it. Set the per-page rate where it ought to be and stick to that when negotiating. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barry Rofman Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Indexes "in the news" Trivia...In the March 15 Time (magazine) the indexes of Andrew Morton's books on Princess Diana and Monica L. are cited, i.e. "mentions of Monica L.s weight in the index ..." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:14:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In-Reply-To: <199903092002.rebh4v.k4j.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 07:59 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Consider the editor's position. With a per-page rate, he/she knows right off >the bat how much it will cost to get the index done, and whether he/she is >staying within budget. When you ask for an hourly rate, you are asking for an >open-ended dollar figure -- to be determined. This is bound to make the >client uncomfortable. The client needs to know that you are not too >expensive. You will probably not get the job, or not get called again. Also consider your position as ain indexer. If you charge by the page, you make more per hour as you become more proficient. Say you start a new client at $3 per page. Suppose the material is new, their house styles are different, etc. Say you only do 10 pages per hour. That's effectively $30 per hour. Now say that three or four projects later you are more familiar withe the material and the client's expectations, and you are doing 15 pages per hour. Effective hourly rate is $45. If you start charging by the hour, you never benefit from increased proficiency. You end up doing more pages for the same amount of money. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 20:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE6A6A.44A82360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > If you start charging by the hour, you never benefit from increased > proficiency. You end up doing more pages for the same amount of = money. That's only true if you never raise your rates. :-) - Seth ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE6A6A.44A82360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
> If you start charging by the hour, you never benefit from=20 increased
> proficiency.  You end up doing more pages for the = same=20 amount of money.

That's only true if you never raise your rates.=20 :-)
 
- Seth
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE6A6A.44A82360-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Re: Audiotapes Richard Evans wrote: > > This came up last year. Simple audio tapes of unstructured sessions are of > little value to anyone who was not there. I don't recommend getting into it. > > Dick Having only been to SLA conferences the last few years (and never to ASI), I can only say that if the sessions are so unstructured that audio does no justice, perhaps the sessions should be better organized. I can understand why roundtables might not translate to audio, but formal presentations? Although being there is definitely better, a good quality audio is a nice second-best. Marcy Brown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: Audiotapes In-Reply-To: <199903092010.PAA27593@mx03.erols.com> >I will not be attending the ASI conference, but I would purchase some >audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:32:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... Janet Perlman writes: >Re rates: My experience is similar to Sonsie's. If I quoted by the hour, my >clients would go away, because (a) it isn't the norm, and (b) the figure would >appear very high. I think this may vary by area, and, as Janet points out, by types of indexing. In 15 years of indexing I have never used any other method but by the hour for back-of-the-book indexes. I often work for authors directly, but sometimes for publishers too. However, I always give an estimate range, and I never go over the upper estimate unless there has been a change in the specs to justify it. That way the client feels protected. When I first started out the only guidelines I had for charging were those used by the local editor's association, and those were by the hour. Local publishers were used to this also, so it all worked out. I would agree that it is probably best to use the method that is the norm in your area so that it does not confuse the clients. If you calculate appropriately it comes to the same thing. Christine ************************************************************************* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 of:(514) 457-6610, loc.470; fax: (514) 457-4730 ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:50:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Audiotapes In a message dated 3/9/99 6:50:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, sanindex@XSITE.NET writes: << I will not be attending the ASI conference, but I would purchase some audiotapes of some of the workshops and general sessions. >> Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: indexer@INETCOM.NET Subject: Re: inconsistent terms Lexicon: the vocabulary of .... an individual subject Comparing the writings of multiple authors on the same subject area reveals that often each group or author strives to establish "lexicon dominance". [see for example Pam Rider's post] An author will introduce a term coined by someone else, and attempt to establish lexicon dominance by making up his/her own version of the term as perhaps "more informative". There is a "lexicon shakeout period" where the competing terms vie for dominance. However in rapidly changing fields, such dominance can not take hold in certain subject areas because there is not yet the benefit of hindsight into the true nature of things, which in the end is the best arbiter of a lexicon. [In hindsight, a certain lexicon is seen to most lucidly express observed reality and as a result the other lexicon candidates rapidly whither and die on the vine.] What develops instead are "lexicon factions" where research group A uses lexicon A, group B uses lexicon B, etc., with large areas of overlap in less contentious areas. This is widely seen in the business and computer literature in particular, where many papers and texts are just thinly-veiled advertisements for consulting services. Writers are pitching their lexicon as much as their ideas and they'd love to get huge consulting fees to come and teach you their lexicon, be it "teams", or "excellence", or "organizational effectiveness", or whatever is the flavor of the moment. Creating your own unique lexicon for this purpose is thus seen as a marketing ploy. The perceived need for lexicon dominance seems to correlate with potential earnings. Thus archeology, astronomy, or say geology texts will be found (in my experience at least) to have much less term variation. Like how many different words for asteroid or planet or stratigraphy or igneous can you think of? There aren't many huge sexy grants (not to be confused with Hugh Grant) to be had in these fields. But in a business or computer text, for research group A to use research group B's lexicon would be to tacitly admit their (B's) view of reality is "better" and more worthy of getting funded. In my experience at least two other factors bedevil the indexer trying to control term usage: 1) dyslexification of multi-word terms, and 2) attempts by authors to impress the reader with their ability to come up with alternate versions of any given term. I can't help but note that an indexer is required to take in the whole ball of wax of a lexicon and try to make some sense out of it. To some extent this is what we do on almost every project. In sharp contrast the professional end users of specialized lexicons usually need only understand their own tiny portion of the overall subject lexicon, and often are lost when they stray too far away from their "lexiconic neighborhood", even in their broad subject field. And people ask: what do we need human indexers for? Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 http://www2.inet.net/~indexer/kjm.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 22:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Audiotapes In-Reply-To: <199903092110.rebl44.pm0.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 09:15 PM 3/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >Richard Evans wrote: > >> >> This came up last year. Simple audio tapes of unstructured sessions are of >> little value to anyone who was not there. I don't recommend getting into it. >> >> Dick > >Having only been to SLA conferences the last few years (and never to ASI), >I can only say that if the sessions are so unstructured that audio does no >justice, perhaps the sessions should be better organized. I can understand >why roundtables might not translate to audio, but formal presentations? Although >being there is definitely better, a good quality audio is a nice second-best. If you are talking about a simple lecture, that follows a script and has little deviation from audience interaction, then there might be some value in an audio tape. Roundtables, workshops, etc, involve too much give and take between the audience and the presenter. They follow a route dictated on the spur of the moment and may be difficult to follow for anyone who was not there. I'm saying this not just from the perspective of ASI conferences, but also from many years in corporate life, where such taping seemed like a good idea at the time but never delivered in the end. I also agree that copyright is an issue. I would not agree to have my sessions taped and sold. Lastly, what would be the cost benefits to ASI to do it? We would have to pay a professional to record the sessions. It would not be sufficient to simply set a cassette recorder in the room. Then there is the cost of producing the tapes. How many would we have to sell to make it worthwhile? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:46:18 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Indexes "in the news" The comments on the index to Monica's Story prompts me to wonder whether an new trend in perceptible in the publishing industry: the indexing of fiction. Last night I passed a bookstore that prominently displayed the book of "that woman, Miss Lewinsky," and each copy had a 25% off sticker on it. Shouldn't that be 100% off? difficile est satura non scribere -- It is difficult not to write satire. Juvenal Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:35:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: inconsistent terms In-Reply-To: <199903090507.XAA05217@mixcom.mixcom.com> What I do in a case like that is use the nonstandard term in parens with the standard term: designed speed. _See_ nameplate capacity nameplate capacity (designed speed) If there's more than one term that needs to go in parens, just separate them by semicolons. Sorry if lots of other people have posted the very same answer. My Index-L came through lopped off, probably because of that binary gibberish that somebody posted, which made that day's digest exceed some mysterious/arbitrary size limit. GRRRRRR! Cheers, ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:35:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Marketing Letters and SASE In-Reply-To: <199903090507.XAA05217@mixcom.mixcom.com> >When sending out Marketing letters to publishers do you usually also send >along a SASE so they may reply if they so desire? No, because they typically respond by phone if they want you. If they don't want me, they'll either spring for the stamp to let me know or just not respond. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:34:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In-Reply-To: <199903090507.XAA05217@mixcom.mixcom.com> >Of course, I've been tricked before, and probably will be again. I had a >call some months ago to index a "tiny" nurse's guide that was to fit into a >uniform pocket. How bad could this be, I said to myself. Luckily, I asked >for sample pages, and when I got them, I saw. It was filled with tables, >charts, lists...virtually every word had to be indexed! And when I quoted my >"full page" rate, the editor was aghast. "But it's so tiny!" she said...and >it was. Not much bigger than a 3 x 5 index card...crammed full of material >on both sides. Sonsie's experience is precisely the reason that my per-page quote is based on average number of indexables per page (density), rather than size of page. Of course that sometimes can't be determined until you have the pages (or a sample chapter) in hand, because production editors are not always the best judges of density. More and more I find myself telling clients, "My fee will be in the range of X-Y, which is based on an average of 5 indexable terms per page. I can give you a more precise figure once I've seen the pages." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer http://www.mixweb.com/Roberts.Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:23:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: In Search of FrameMaker Help! I've been pulling my hair out trying to learn Frame. Does anyone know the answers to these questions?? Thanks in advance. --Ilana Kingsley > I've looked through their documentation, but haven't found answers. > > 1)How do I merge the indexes for each book? I need to do this so I can > edit the headings & subheadings. > 2)Currently, I have foonotes or (some authors) indexed with: > African Americans:suffrage rights:for men <$pagenum>n. para font>15<$nopage> > > However, if I have the same heading, withouth the <$pagenum>..stuff, the > entries in the generated index appear as: > > African Americans > suffrage rights > for men 27n.15 > for men 13-14 > > > --How do I get these to appear on the same line? > > 3> How do I get a comma to appear after the heading? > e.g. > > African Americans, 38 > suffrage rights > > [right now the entries look like: > African Americans 38 > suffrage rights ] > > 4)How can I make the sort order ignore quotations? I've tried changing the > sort order in the reference page to: > <$numerics><$alphabetics><$symbols> > > but this does not help. For example, > > I have an entry: > "permanent campaign, the 17" > > > I can either make this appear at the top of the document, the bottom, but > not in the P's. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 23:30:31 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... As I said in my previous posting, my experience, and that of most US book indexers, is that the norm is a per-indexable-page rate. I did point out in my original posting that some areas of indexing might use a per-hour rate, and embedded indexing of technical books is one of those. Christine Jacobs has brought up another good exception. Rates also depend on geography. Christine is in Canada, and I gather from her posting that per- hour rate is common there. I believe it is also more the norm in England. So when we discuss rates and the norm on rates, we need to remember that not all indexers are US-based, nor do they work in the same "segment" of the industry. There will be differences. As Christine put it, it is best to stick with the norm in your area. It will make negotiating easier. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 20:39:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anita York Subject: Re: New workshop Is this an "on-line " workshop, or a "in person" workshop somewhere? Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Sandi Schroeder To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:14 PM Subject: Re: New workshop >What else would you like to know? > >The basic cost is $55 for ASI members and $65 for non ASI members who >register before May 9. In order to register, write it in on the registration >form. > >Sandi Schroeder > >-----Original Message----- >From: Anita York >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 2:48 PM >Subject: Re: New workshop > > >>How do I find out more info on the Publishing 101 workshop? >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Sandi Schroeder >>To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >>Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 12:08 PM >>Subject: New workshop >> >> >>>The workshop on Wednesday afternoon, entitled Publishing Essentials for >>>Indexers with Barbara Cohen has been replaced by Publishing World 101 with >>>Janet Perlman. The subject matter covered will be much the same and we >are >>>sure you will find your attendance beneficial. >>> >>>This workshop will orient the freelancer about the publishing industry and >>>the book production process. Discuss and learn the terminology, the >>>processes, and the technology. Find out what is probably most important to >>>editors--and least important. We will start with the basics and end with a >>>discussion of trends in the industry. >>> >>>Audience: Beginning to Intermediate Indexers who want to learn more about >>>the industry they work in. >>> >>>Presenter: Janet Perlman has been indexing for more than 25 years. She >>began >>>in publishing as an editorial assistant and then editorial supervisors >with >>>a major New York City publisher, and learned to index as part of her job. >>>Janet specializes in scientific, medical, and engineering materials and >>also >>>provides indexing services for Spanish-language materials. >>> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: In Search of FrameMaker Help! This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BE6A91.938AC560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Ilana Kingsley > 1)How do I merge the indexes for each book? I need to do this so I can > edit the headings & subheadings. To merge indexes, you need to create a book file that contains all the indexed files. For example, if your first book has Chapters 1 through 8, and the second book has Chapters 9 through 16, you need to create a book with 16 chapters. To do this in FrameMaker you should save one of your existing books under a different name and then add the chapters of the other book. (If you need the specifics of how to do this, please write me privately.) Once the book is created, you can generate an index for the *whole* book. Make sure that your page numbers for all chapters are what you want before running the index. > 2)Currently, I have foonotes or (some authors) indexed with: > African Americans:suffrage rights:for men <$pagenum>n. para font>15<$nopage> > > However, if I have the same heading, withouth the <$pagenum>..stuff, the > entries in the generated index appear as: > > African Americans > suffrage rights > for men 27n.15 > for men 13-14 > > --How do I get these to appear on the same line? To sort FrameMaker entries, you need to use square brackets. For example, the entry African Americans:suffrage rights:for men[African Americans:suffrage rights:men] will ignore the word "for" in the sub-subentry. If you are using other tags in the entry, such as the <$pagenum> tag, you should still make sure you are sorting the entries appropriately. From what I understand about <$pagenum> (it's something I never use), the text that follows it will be a part of the generated page number. Thus if the marker Washington, George<$pagenum>i appears on page 140, the entry you'll receive is Washington, George 140i So if you want to index that note (and to sort the sub-subentry under "m"), make sure the index marker appears within the text of the footnote, and use this tag: African Americans:suffrage rights:for men<$pagenum>n [African Americans:suffrage rights:men] If all your markers have matching sort strings (or they all have none but are spelled correctly), the entries should combine properly, with the page numbers in order. > 3> How do I get a comma to appear after the heading? This is a style thing. You need to make the adjustment in your global variables. (I don't know how to do this myself, but you should be able to find this in the documentation.) I am certain that a variable is defined for the text that follows an index entry and preceeds the first locator (such as a nonbreaking space and comma, or an en space). Other variables control other elements of the syntax, such as the character between ends of a range (usually a hyphen or an en dash for simple page numbers, or the text " to " between complex locators). > 4)How can I make the sort order ignore quotations? Use the square brackets for the entire entry. If the entry you were trying to create were "File not found" error, 140 the marker (on page 140) would look like this: "File not found" error[File not found error] What appears within the square brackets defines how FrameMaker will sort the entry. Seth Maislin Focus Information Services smaislin@world.std.com ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BE6A91.938AC560 Content-Type: image/gif Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <004a01be6abb$7c486360$e14a3ea6@focus-computer> R0lGODlhRAAeAHcAACH5BAEAANcALAAAAABEAB4AhwAAAAAAMwAAZgAAmQAAzAAA/wAzAAAzMwAz ZgAzmQAzzAAz/wBmAABmMwBmZgBmmQBmzABm/wCZAACZMwCZZgCZmQCZzACZ/wDMAADMMwDMZgDM mQDMzADM/wD/AAD/MwD/ZgD/mQD/zAD//zMAADMAMzMAZjMAmTMAzDMA/zMzADMzMzMzZjMzmTMz zDMz/zNmADNmMzNmZjNmmTNmzDNm/zOZADOZMzOZZjOZmTOZzDOZ/zPMADPMMzPMZjPMmTPMzDPM /zP/ADP/MzP/ZjP/mTP/zDP//2YAAGYAM2YAZmYAmWYAzGYA/2YzAGYzM2YzZmYzmWYzzGYz/2Zm AGZmM2ZmZmZmmWZmzGZm/2aZAGaZM2aZZmaZmWaZzGaZ/2bMAGbMM2bMZmbMmWbMzGbM/2b/AGb/ M2b/Zmb/mWb/zGb//5kAAJkAM5kAZpkAmZkAzJkA/5kzAJkzM5kzZpkzmZkzzJkz/5lmAJlmM5lm ZplmmZlmzJlm/5mZAJmZM5mZZpmZmZmZzJmZ/5nMAJnMM5nMZpnMmZnMzJnM/5n/AJn/M5n/Zpn/ mZn/zJn//8wAAMwAM8wAZswAmcwAzMwA/8wzAMwzM8wzZswzmcwzzMwz/8xmAMxmM8xmZsxmmcxm zMxm/8yZAMyZM8yZZsyZmcyZzMyZ/8zMAMzMM8zMZszMmczMzMzM/8z/AMz/M8z/Zsz/mcz/zMz/ //8AAP8AM/8AZv8Amf8AzP8A//8zAP8zM/8zZv8zmf8zzP8z//9mAP9mM/9mZv9mmf9mzP9m//+Z AP+ZM/+ZZv+Zmf+ZzP+Z///MAP/MM//MZv/Mmf/MzP/M////AP//M///Zv//mf//zP///wAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAj/AK8JHEiwIMFWrVoZNGjQoEGDBg0aNEhw0IssWV4MMmjQoEGDBg0aNGjw2qAXBAe1MmjQoEGD Bg0aNGjwRauCgwwaNGjQoEGDBg0WzDLI4CCDBVtlMWjQoEGDBg0SfNGqYKtWBgm2KpDFoEGDBg0a NDiw1QuDBg1myTLIoEGDBg0aNDhwUBaDBgu2epGllUGDBg0aNGhwYJZBBg0WHJQli8GBrQYZNGjQ oMGCL1oZNFjwxaBBBgUOKpDFoEGDBg0WfGHQYMFWL7K0MnitVYEsBg0aNGjQ4AuDBgsOypLF4LVW LwYZNGjQoEGDrbIYNFgwy4tWBVtleZHFoEGDBg0a/7w2KIvBgq1aEXyRheCgF1lavWhl0KBBgwYN Xhs0yGBBgINetLp2rVWBVq0GZXmRpdW1QVkAXhM4kGBBgwcRCszSKuHAQS+yZMlS4MWLLIMIvmiV MGHChAKztEpYsNWgAoMODnqRMGHChANfEGz14kUrhFkKIHzRKmHChAkHFhjYqsCgQYMODnqR5WCr FwkTJkxI8MXAQVmutRpksFWWLK0OvmiVMGHChANbZRk4aNC1QYMMZmn14mCrFwkTJmz1olXCa4Oy DBw0qNULg1latXpx8MWghAkTXnvxIksrhIMGDWyVJUurgoMGXRs0yGCrF61evHiRpVXChAVbZRn0 ov/VwSytBrYqMKjgoEECs7QymGXQi0ECB71olTBhwVZZWr140argi4GtXhQo2CrLwBcGW714MYhg qxeDEia81mpgqyzXWr3I0kpgqxcCsxQYlGXQwEEAs1y7du3aC4DXBA7MUqDVwIGtXrxoNXDgwIED r7XKMvBaqyytrg168SLLiwIvXmRpda3Vi0GDXmRpNfBaloEDCwwaOHBgqxdZWg0cOHDgtVYvWg0U 2CpLK4GtWr0Y1GqgwFZZsrQaOLDVwIFZBg4cOHDQixdZWg0ceK3VoBcvBg0cKDDLIIGtXgC8JnAg wYIGDyIc2GpQlgIAXwgc+CLLIIDXBA4keK1VliwVLwYVLFiwYMGCBQsWvNaqVauC1wICADs= ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01BE6A91.938AC560-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 01:05:29 -0500 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: FrameMaker Indexing Help! -----Original Message----- From: Ilana Kingsley > 1)How do I merge the indexes for each book? I need to do this so I can > edit the headings & subheadings. To merge indexes, you need to create a book file that contains all the indexed files. For example, if your first book has Chapters 1 through 8, and the second book has Chapters 9 through 16, you need to create a book with 16 chapters. To do this in FrameMaker you should save one of your existing books under a different name and then add the chapters of the other book. (If you need the specifics of how to do this, please write me privately.) Once the book is created, you can generate an index for the *whole* book. Make sure that your page numbers for all chapters are what you want before running the index. > 2)Currently, I have footnotes or (some authors) indexed with: > African Americans:suffrage rights:for men <$pagenum>n. para font>15<$nopage> > > However, if I have the same heading, without the <$pagenum>..stuff, the > entries in the generated index appear as: > > African Americans > suffrage rights > for men 27n.15 > for men 13-14 > > --How do I get these to appear on the same line? To sort FrameMaker entries, you need to use square brackets. For example, the entry African Americans:suffrage rights:for men[African Americans:suffrage rights:men] will ignore the word "for" in the sub-subentry. If you are using other tags in the entry, such as the <$pagenum> tag, you should still make sure you are sorting the entries appropriately. From what I understand about <$pagenum> (it's something I never use), the text that follows it will be a part of the generated page number. Thus if the marker Washington, George<$pagenum>i appears on page 140, the entry you'll receive is Washington, George 140i So if you want to index that note (and to sort the sub-subentry under "m"), make sure the index marker appears within the text of the footnote, and use this tag: African Americans:suffrage rights:for men<$pagenum>n [African Americans:suffrage rights:men] If all your markers have matching sort strings (or they all have none but are spelled correctly), the entries should combine properly, with the page numbers in order. > 3> How do I get a comma to appear after the heading? This is a style thing. You need to make the adjustment in your global variables. (I don't know how to do this myself, but you should be able to find this in the documentation.) I am certain that a variable is defined for the text that follows an index entry and precedes the first locator (such as a nonbreaking space and comma, or an en space). Other variables control other elements of the syntax, such as the character between ends of a range (usually a hyphen or an en dash for simple page numbers, or the text " to " between complex locators). > 4)How can I make the sort order ignore quotations? Use the square brackets for the entire entry. If the entry you were trying to create were "File not found" error, 140 the marker (on page 140) would look like this: "File not found" error[File not found error] What appears within the square brackets defines how FrameMaker will sort the entry. Seth Maislin Focus Information Services smaislin@world.std.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:14:30 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: Well Done, Whoever You Are Maria Coughlin wrote: From: Jon & Glenda Subject: plural forms of words in indexes It is generally agreed that index entries in general books should be written in the plural form for countable things (e.g. dogs) and that non-countable things (e.g. honesty) should be in the singular. Does anyone have a good explanation why this is the best way? Secondly, technical books often have entries in the singular form. Is there any good reason for this, and has anyone seen problems in this? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 22:05:11 +1100 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: gerund form in indexes (e.g. running) Hi, To my knowledge when verbs are used in indexes the gerund form is preferred. My non-grammatical reasoning for this has been that the gerund is the most noun-like form of a word. Does anyone know a good reason why we use gerunds, and is there any reason why it would be undesirable to use a verb such as 'run' in an index? Would the same philosophy apply to headings. For example, in a computer book do you think the heading "Printing" would be better than the heading "Print"? Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: plural forms of words in indexes At 10:05 PM 3/10/99 +1100, Jon & Glenda wrote: >It is generally agreed that index entries in general books should be written >in the plural form for countable things (e.g. dogs) and that non-countable >things (e.g. honesty) should be in the singular. I am not sure of all the reasons, but it does help to distinguish between words that have both concept and object meanings: eg: Injustice and Injustices in which the first is a concept and the second is occurances of injustice. And perhaps part of the rule is based on the pragmatic decision that whatever we choose to do, it should be consistent -- if sometimes you have to distinguish between object and concept, then do it all the time. Christine **************************************************************************** ******* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC Canada H9X 3L9 (514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 **************************************************************************** ******** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: gerund form in indexes (e.g. running) At 10:05 PM 3/10/99 +1100, Jon & Glenda wrote: >To my knowledge when verbs are used in indexes the gerund form is preferred. >My non-grammatical reasoning for this has been that the gerund is the most >noun-like form of a word. Again, this is an educated guess, but if you do not use the gerund form, then you would have to have a rule about which form of the verb would be best: run, runs, to run, ran... Using the noun form increases consistency and the likelihood that people will look for the same form. Also, I have a feeling that people tend to look for a "something" in an index, rather than a "motion/movement/verb". This is based on what I have seen students look for and choose as terms. So maybe that is part of the origin of choosing a noun form. >Would the same philosophy apply to headings. For example, in a computer book >do you think the heading "Printing" would be better than the heading >"Print"? Personally I would translate these as meaning different things: the first referring to the process of printing, the second probably to a command/icon... don't know if that would be universally true. Christine **************************************************************************** ******* Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC Canada H9X 3L9 (514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 **************************************************************************** ******** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:09:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: automated indexing David Brown wrote: <> From an indexer's perspective, this may be true. From the point of view of someone who has no clue as to what a good index is but needs one quickly and cheaply, this might be expressed differently: "Embedded indexing is good. Automated indexing is even better. Hiring an expensive professional indexer is evil." Just playing devil's advocate again, as usual..... John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:43:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... I was burned by hourly rate estimating many years ago. On the basis of galley sheets, the editor estimated approximately 375 pages, but the book ended up with closer to 500 pages. The accounting branch had the firm idea that my estimate was a firm fee plus or minus an hour or two. There was nothing left in the budget for more. We ended up compromising on how many hours I' d be paid for (a few less than actually spent). If you charge by the page, and there are more pages than estimated, that's the publisher's problem. You still get a fair payment for the work. Jeanne Moody ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:49:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... > Jeanne Moody wrote: > > I was burned by hourly rate estimating many years ago. On the basis of > galley sheets, the editor estimated approximately 375 pages, but the book > ended up with closer to 500 pages. The accounting branch had the firm > idea > that my estimate was a firm fee plus or minus an hour or two. There was > nothing left in the budget for more. ... One way to handle this is to include an "assumptions" or "conditions" paragraph in your estimate, explaining the basis of your estimate. For example, in Jeanne's instance, she could have included right in the estimate, "Estimate based on page count of 375 pages," which would have given the financial people very little wiggle room when the page count dramatically increased. Just a thought... -- Sharon W. Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:03:28 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "[Sarah Lewis]" Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... My next door neighbor is a science textbook editor. She asked that I send my resume to the production editor at her publishing house, along with "my rate sheet" for indexing and proofreading. I have been charging by the hour for two long term clients, as that is their preference. Does anyone have a template for a rate sheet? I also think that because this is a new relationship, I should begin with per page rates. I live in New England. I thought $2.00 per page would be reasonable for elementary school Paleontology text. What about proofreading rates, does anyone have suggestions for hourly or by-page rates? I'm sure this subject has been posted before, but since I'm right in the thick of it (new client) and just joined the board, thought I'd ask. You can e-mail me directly if you like. I'd appreciate any advice or input. Thanks, Sarah Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:13:07 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated indexing John R. Sullivan wrote: > > ... someone who has no clue as to what a good index is but needs > one quickly and cheaply [might say] "Embedded indexing is good. > Automated indexing is even better. Hiring an expensive professional > indexer is evil." The person Mr. Sullivan describes is probably already comfortable with the idea that increased usability means lower support costs, lower reader dissatisfaction, fewer lost prospects, and so on. The indexer's task is to show that potential client that usability increases with the addition of a well crafted index. From there, it's an easy step to get the client to pay for that index: They're also familiar with the idea that you have to invest if you expect to get any return. So how *do* indexers sell potential clients on the value of a index? Once you're over that hurdle, the decision to embed index entries in the source material is simple--at least in dynamic publications--because it helps hold down the cost of maintaining your well crafted index. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 09:14:57 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Subject: Re: Audiotapes I've bought audiotapes of sessions for other conferences, both for sessions I've attended and sessions I hadn't. My experience is that tapes, by themselves, are nearly worthless, even if I had attended the session. One misses the ambience, the body language, any audio-visuals, etc., and one can almost never hear the questions from the audience. Just my 2 cents worth. -- Joy Thomas Social Sciences Librarian California State University, Long Beach 562 985-7817 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:33:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Catherine Keenan Subject: Re: automated indexing At 09:09 AM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >David Brown wrote: >From the point of view of someone who has no clue as to what a good index is but needs one quickly and >cheaply, this might be expressed differently: "Embedded indexing is good. >Automated indexing is even better. Hiring an expensive professional indexer >is evil." Well! if we're dancing with the devil, how about: "Embedded indexing is okay. 'Automated indexing' is a lie of the most fundamental kind, worthy of the label 'newspeak', a total waste of time and money; money and time better spent on a real indexer. Yes, the human beats the machine at this job. But if you won't come up with the scratch, better a table of contents than an automated index." catherine, an index user, "automated" index user, and yes, indexer toronto ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:46:54 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Weekend posts arrive on Tuesday?? Just wondering.... Did anyone else have their e-mail from last weekend delivered on Tuesday?? I got few e-mails on Fri. and Sat., and nothing at all for most of Sun., Then I got Monday's stuff & could see that I had missed many Index-l posts (and I don't know what else). Then, early Wed. a.m. I downloaded & find that the "missing" posts are in this batch. I suspect AOL is the culprit. Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:46:53 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: inconsistent terms (sort of, off topic :-D ) Kevin wrote: > This is widely seen in the business and computer literature in particular, > where many papers and texts are just thinly-veiled advertisements for > consulting services. Writers are pitching their lexicon as much as their > ideas and they'd love to get huge consulting fees to come and teach you > their lexicon, be it "teams", or "excellence", or "organizational > effectiveness", or whatever is the flavor of the moment. Creating your own > unique lexicon for this purpose is thus seen as a marketing ploy. Kevin, This made me laugh because I recalled that some years ago a veterinary practice consultant copywrited the term "Practice of Excellence" to describe the lucky practices who were benefiting from her management strategies. I thought it was a hoot, and had a nice chuckle every time I saw one of her "thinly-veiled advertisements" in the form of a magazine article. :-D Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services Yonges Island, SC ************************************************************** If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:24:05 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marite Tweeddale Subject: Re: Weekend posts arrive on Tuesday?? Yes, same happened to me as well. I thought everyone in the US had fallen off the planet. Then on Tuesday - woosh. Marite Marite Tweeddale Precis, Information & Knowledge Management Services 136 Onslow Road, Wellington 4, New Zealand Tel. 00 64 4 479 6798 email: marite@paradise.net.nz -----Original Message----- From: Ann Truesdale To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, 11 March 1999 06:47 Subject: Weekend posts arrive on Tuesday?? >Just wondering.... Did anyone else have their e-mail from last weekend >delivered on Tuesday?? I got few e-mails on Fri. and Sat., and nothing at all >for most of Sun., Then I got Monday's stuff & could see that I had missed many >Index-l posts (and I don't know what else). Then, early Wed. a.m. I downloaded >& find that the "missing" posts are in this batch. I suspect AOL is the >culprit. > >Ann > >Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) >TrueWords Freelance Services >Yonges Island, SC >************************************************************** > If quitters never win, and winners never quit, what fool > came up with, "Quit while you're ahead"? > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:42:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: automated indexing I had the chance, not too long ago, to index material on artificial intelligence. There were so many "but how's?" and so little expla- nations of concrete, feasible methods of producing *real* A.I. that the entire discussion seemed absolutely ridiculous. Think about this... *what would be the method of recognizing implied discussion of a topic although the exact term is never used? *how will the program recognize the different needs of different audiences? *subentries- I don't even have to say anything about this one. The science of programming always seems to boil down to two fundamental products: a YES and a NO, or an ON and an OFF, or a 0 and a 1...but never involves *reasoning* I would be interested in hearing *real* discussion on exactly *how* this could be done. May be over my head, but let's give it a go. Anyone? Kevin Broccoli -----Original Message----- From: Catherine Keenan To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 12:24 PM Subject: Re: automated indexing >At 09:09 AM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >>David Brown wrote: >>From the point of view of someone who has no clue as to what a good index >is but needs one quickly and >cheaply, this might be expressed differently: >"Embedded indexing is good. >Automated indexing is even better. Hiring an >expensive professional indexer >is evil." > >Well! if we're dancing with the devil, how about: > >"Embedded indexing is okay. 'Automated indexing' is a lie of the most >fundamental kind, worthy of the label 'newspeak', a total waste of time and >money; money and time better spent on a real indexer. Yes, the human beats >the machine at this job. But if you won't come up with the scratch, better a >table of contents than an automated index." > >catherine, >an index user, "automated" index user, and yes, indexer >toronto ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith B. Ayotte, CRTT" Subject: Re: gerund form in indexes (e.g. running) In-Reply-To: <199903101343.IAA13238@nessie.crosslink.net> At 08:50 AM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >At 10:05 PM 3/10/99 +1100, Jon & Glenda wrote: > >>To my knowledge when verbs are used in indexes the gerund form is preferred. >>My non-grammatical reasoning for this has been that the gerund is the most >>noun-like form of a word. > >Again, this is an educated guess, but if you do not use the gerund form, >then you would have to have a rule about which form of the verb would be >best: run, runs, to run, ran... Using the noun form increases consistency >and the likelihood that people will look for the same form. Also, I have a >feeling that people tend to look for a "something" in an index, rather than >a "motion/movement/verb". This is based on what I have seen students look >for and choose as terms. So maybe that is part of the origin of choosing a >noun form. > > >>Would the same philosophy apply to headings. For example, in a computer book >>do you think the heading "Printing" would be better than the heading >>"Print"? > >Personally I would translate these as meaning different things: the first >referring to the process of printing, the second probably to a >command/icon... don't know if that would be universally true. > >Christine > > > > >**************************************************************************** >******* >Christine Jacobs >cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca > >Co-Chair >Information and Library Technologies Dept. >John Abbott College >P.O. Box 2000 >Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue QC Canada H9X 3L9 >(514) 457-6610, loc 470; fax: (514) 457-4730 >**************************************************************************** >******** >Glenda, In support of your thinking, I hope the following is of some help. I am presently studying with Susan Holbert via her excellent video series of actual training conferences. She teaches that the noun or noun form is the RULE for every main entry. A gerund is a verb that functions as a noun. Both adjectives and verbs should be turned into noun phrases or gerunds. If you are interested in this excellent course, you can email Susan Holbert at susanh@world.std.com or phone her at (617)893-0514. She has a website, too: http://www.abbington.com/holbert Hope this helps. Have a GREAT day! Ardith Ayotte in Virginia, DC Chapter of ASI. P.S. The March 6th DC Chapter meeting - my first - was so worth the almost 4 hour round trip. Looking forward to the next one! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:50:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: automated indexing On 3/10/1999 12:42 PM Kevin A. Broccoli wrote (in part): >I had the chance, not too long ago, to index material on artificial >intelligence. There were so many "but how's?" and so little expla- >nations of concrete, feasible methods of producing *real* A.I. that >the entire discussion seemed absolutely ridiculous. I had a similar indexing project (speech recognition) and agree that we're a long way from computerized indexing. For instance, if I state: "I told the waitress to take the steak back because it was too rare," most people would assume a restaurant setting. Not from the individual words, though. I could have said, "My cousin is a waitress," or "I love rare steak," neither of which has anything to do with a restaurant setting. Not to say we should be complacent. Perhaps some of us will cap our careers as consultants to AI firms who wish to build databases of indexing knowledge. Craig Brown ===================================================== The Last Word lastword@i1.net Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 ===================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:06:19 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Audiotapes As a presenter, I am opposed to audiotaping workshops. I understand that people who can't attend a conference would like to have the benefit of the workshops and other presentations. I could imagine that general sessions might be worth taping, but besides the problems with usefulness that other people have mentioned, I'm not willing to have my own workshops disseminated in this fashion. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:09:15 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Automatic Indexing Redux All - It seems that whatever one posts to Index-L, someone else will post a riposte. Or, to put it another way: Where there's a will there's a won't. David Brown's last posting was interesting. I don't want to encourage a controversial thread, because there is little point or benefit in arguing about automatic or imbedded indexing. What will happen (evolve) in our profession will happen, and taking hard doctinaire positions serves little purpose. David wrote: "The person Mr. Sullivan describes is probably already comfortable with the idea that increased usability means lower support costs, lower reader dissatisfaction, fewer lost prospects, and so on." I agree that increased usability means lower reader dissatisfaction (by definition), and with the possibility that potential buyers, thumbing through an index in Border's bookstore, might be moved to purchase the book because it has a dynamite index. But I see no connection between usability and support costs (I assume that "support costs" means revising an index as a book moves into subsequent editions). There also is a possible downside to using imbedded indexing when dealing with a second edition. I had the opportunity, in indexing the second edition of a text that I had indexed five years before, to create a much better index the second time around. Many of the changes in the index were structural. Merely tweaking an imbedded index, in that case, would have interfered with that improvement. In other words, imbedding an index might ensure ease of maintenance, but it also might mean perpetuating a poor index. David also wrote: "The indexer's task is to show that potential client that usability increases with the addition of a well crafted index. From there, it's an easy step to get the client to pay for that index: They're also familiar with the idea that you have to invest if you expect to get any return." There are a number of assunptions in that assertion that might be difficult to support. I never have had the sense that most clients hold "usability" as a primary criterion for indexes. Invariably, they presume adequacy and then focus on schedule and cost. In my experience it never has been "an easy step to get the client to pay for that [well-crafted] index"! Many clients will pay some small premium for an excellent index, but usually only if they are familiar with the indexer's work and if there is some incentive to pay an additional increment (e.g., difficult text, short turnaround, etc.). But using the words "easy", "pay" and "client" in one sentence is, in my view, a compound oxymoron. The idea that "you have to invest if you expect to get any return" is not, I fear, a thought that is uppermost (or even present) in the minds of the editors with whom I have dealt It is not that they are foolish, frivolous or mean-spirited. It simply is because they are not paid to take the long view. They are paid to get that book out on schedule and on budget and somehow deal with intractable authors who insist on last-minute aa's and/or sit on the page proofs and blow the schedule. Pressure is the name of the editor's game. It is difficult to imagine a scenario in which an editor meets with her marketing and production people and says that she intends to go overbudget by another eight hundred dollars and also to delay the book three weeks in order to get a superior, reader-friendly "usable" index that will lower reader dissatisfaction, and that they should consider this as "an investment" from which they will gain a significant return. Ah, well. It would be comforting to have a set of reasonable, consistent, sunny, cheerful, up-beat criteria to guide us in our professions and in our lives. It would be wonderful if all our interfaces, personal and professional, were gentle, caring and mutually supportive. Then the prisons would be empty and Prozac would gather dust on pharmacists' shelves. But the world doesn't seem to work that way. So indexers and editors try to deal with it, sometimes gracefully and sometimes with egg on our faces. And we go on. Regarding doctrinaire controversy: In Gulliver's Travels he came across the Big Endians, who opened their eggs on the large end, and the Little Endians, who opened only the small ends of their eggs. Their convictions were so strong that they went to war over this. Perhaps this is a cautionary tale that we all should re-read... Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:09:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: automated indexing Kevin wrote: <> This topic has come up several times before on Index-L, and (not surprisingly) the very suggestion that a computer-generated index could ever be acceptable is met with laughter and ridicule. However, I'm just trying to be realistic about this -- in at least some cases, people who think they can save money by using automated indexing tools will do just that. The computer companies that I have worked for over the past 12 years would never EVER hire someone to index their books -- it's too expensive, and even if they were willing to spend the money it would not fit into the project schedule. No amount of arguing over improved usability and reduced customer support costs would ever, EVER convince those in charge that it would be cost-effective to hire a professional indexer. As far as these companies are concerned, the mediocre indexes created by tech writers who, in many cases, have no clue as to what "real" indexing involves (my apologies to those tech writers out there who don't fall into that category) are considered "good enough." And if a tool came along that could do the job to that same level of mediocrity, it would stand a reasonable chance of being adopted for use by such companies (as long as it didn't cost much and required little or no training). As far as the "science of programming" not involving "reasoning" -- well, I'm not a programmer, so I'm not qualified to pass judgment on such things. I do know, however, that 20 years ago people were saying the same things about chess computing software that folks here on Index-L are saying about automatic indexing software -- and today you can walk into your local CompUSA, plunk down $29.95, and walk out with a sophisticated chess-playing program that can easily beat probably 99 percent of the chess players in the world. All I'm suggesting is that we not dismiss this technology. John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: automated indexing In-Reply-To: <199903101222.redaj0.3dp.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 09:13 AM 3/10/99 -0800, you wrote: > >So how *do* indexers sell potential clients on the value of a index? > I used to struggle with this. I used to buy books with bad indexes just so I could approach the publisher about doing a better job for them. My success rate was zero. Then I attended an STC lecture on marketing yourself. The first thing the lecturer said was that you can't sell a solution to a problem that the customer doesn't realize he has. This suddenly made perfect sense to me. Now I only spend time with people who realize they have a problem and ask for my advice. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:33:21 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Raper Organization: Indexing Specialists Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing I have tried HTML Indexer and find it is very limited. Might have a use for defining URLs in a database, but try as I can, i have not yet found a way that this software can index the contents of a file. Surely three identifying entries, for example, to a file containg 20 thousand words of text is unsatisfactory. perhaps David can enlighten me on how toi make it do this properly. From Richard Raper David M. Brown wrote: > Jan Wright wrote that many program's modules for embedded indexing do > not lend themselves well to indexers' way of working. > > Products like IXgen (for FrameMaker) and HTML Indexer (for HTML files) > address these shortcomings in UI design, giving indexers a more natural > environment in which to create index entries. > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. -- Richard Raper Indexing Specialists Tel: 01273 738299 Home page http://www.pavilion.co.uk/indspec ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:18:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: Re: automated indexing First, I don't think I'm completely disagreeing. What John mentions below is true. Some companies will settle for poor indexes to save money. What I am saying is that we seem (in my humble opinion) to be a loooooooooooong way off from quality automated indexing. I have serious doubts as to whether we will *ever* see it. Not because I am an indexer, but because no one has yet sucess- fully explained *how*. At least give me a clue. How could it be done? I would accept that it will someday come if at least the theory could be explained. No one has attempted to answer my 3 previous questions. Ob- viously we're indexers and we don't know the answers to A.I. problems. But there must be some source that discusses such issues that gives more answers that the material that I indexed. If not, then transportation (a la Star Trek) seems more likely to develop before high-quality automated indexing. At least transportation has *some* scientific basis behind it, crazy as it might sound. What Dick mentions as far as improvement in automated indexing to the point that *more* editors accept it as an easy way out...sure that could happen. Not that *all* would go that route. Unless w/ the passage of time values change even more than they have. We all hope not. Not just for our jobs, but for the whole idea of it. Regarding the disagreement among each other, that's perfect- ly normal and healthy for the list. Reality...reality is that not one of us knows for sure what the future holds...we can only hope. Oh, and argue about our own little predictions :-) Kevin Broccoli >This topic has come up several times before on Index-L, and (not >surprisingly) the very suggestion that a computer-generated index could ever >be acceptable is met with laughter and ridicule. However, I'm just trying to >be realistic about this -- in at least some cases, people who think they can >save money by using automated indexing tools will do just that. The computer >companies that I have worked for over the past 12 years would never EVER >hire someone to index their books -- it's too expensive, and even if they >were willing to spend the money it would not fit into the project schedule. >No amount of arguing over improved usability and reduced customer support >costs would ever, EVER convince those in charge that it would be >cost-effective to hire a professional indexer. As far as these companies are >concerned, the mediocre indexes created by tech writers who, in many cases, >have no clue as to what "real" indexing involves (my apologies to those tech >writers out there who don't fall into that category) are considered "good >enough." And if a tool came along that could do the job to that same level >of mediocrity, it would stand a reasonable chance of being adopted for use >by such companies (as long as it didn't cost much and required little or no >training). > >As far as the "science of programming" not involving "reasoning" -- well, >I'm not a programmer, so I'm not qualified to pass judgment on such things. >I do know, however, that 20 years ago people were saying the same things >about chess computing software that folks here on Index-L are saying about >automatic indexing software -- and today you can walk into your local >CompUSA, plunk down $29.95, and walk out with a sophisticated chess-playing >program that can easily beat probably 99 percent of the chess players in the >world. > >All I'm suggesting is that we not dismiss this technology. > >John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:20:12 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: inconsistent terms (lexicon dominance) In-Reply-To: What is dyslexification? Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:23:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Dinse Subject: Re: Quark Indexing I just finished a job using Quark to embed indexing. I know there are a few in-house indexers lurking here who do the same. Anyone willing to speak up? Johnna VanHoose Indexing, Editing, Proofreading Indianapolis, IN johnnav@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: Ann Norcross To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:09 PM Subject: Quark Indexing >Is anyone out there indexing sucessfully with Quark Express? >That is, indexing only with the Quark indexing utility, not >indexing in Cindex, Macrex, or SKYIndex and then embedding the >entries in the Quark files. > >Thanks, >Ann >-- >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information, Inc. >mailto:norcross@ipass.net > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 15:24:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Johnna VanHoose Dinse Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing Thanks Jan, we needed that. I think sometimes embedding indexing gets a bad rap because it's often misunderstood and mistaken for automated indexes. Johnna VanHoose Indexing, Editing, Proofreading Indianapolis, IN johnnav@iquest.net -----Original Message----- From: Jan C. Wright To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:31 PM Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing >I think we need to clarify one point here.... embedded indexing is >different than automatically generated indexing. Word's embedded indexing >module can be used to insert hand-crafted indexes into Word files. Word >also has a concordance generator- an automatic index generator that is >nearly useless for indexing. It is a different module. So when Nancy >Mulvany was talking about improving the embedded indexing module in Word, >she was talking about making it easier for us as indexers to create and >write fine indexes in Word -- she wasn't supporting the concordance >concept. The module for embedded indexing does not lend itself well to our >ways of working. > >Jan Wright > >At 06:55 PM 3/8/99 EST, you wrote: >>All - >> >>John Sullivan wrote (re an Adobe product): >> >>"Keep an eye on such tools. In the not-too-distant future they may become >>sophisticated enough that people who are more interested in the bottom line >>than in quality indexing might be saying "Hey, the automatically generated >>index isn't great, but it will do!" >> >>I agreee absolutely. Some years ago, at an ASI conference that has faded >into >>the dim netherworld of half-remembered events, I recall Nancy Mulvany >making a >>presentation in which (I think) she discussed the need for Microsoft to >>improve the imbedded indexing module in Word. >> >>The point, if I remember it correctly, was that Microsoft had not really >>bothered to make a significant commitment of programming resources to the >>indexing module, but merely was keeping up with the competition. The old "If >>they've got it then we must have it also" philosophy. My recollection is >that >>Nancy felt that Microsoft, et al, should get with it and develop really >>useful, workable, indexing modules for their products. >> >>At the time I was reminded of the old Aesop fable of the woodsman who goes >>into the forest with only an axehead, and cries to the trees that he is a >poor >>woodcutter who can't make ends meet because he is without an axe handle, and >>that his family is poor and his children are hungry. The trees take pity on >>him, and one drops a suitable branch. The woodsman fits the branch into his >>axehead, and then proceeds to chop down the forest. >> >>So much for irrational acts of kindness. >> >>Now my point, of course, is that in my opinion urging Microsoft on to greater >>success in developing automatic indexing capabilities is... well... >>suicidal. Now at this juncture I must explicitly state that I am not >>criticizing Nancy, and that I have the greatest respect for her >>professionalism and for her judgment. I might have remembered that meeting >>incorrectly, and I do not want to start anything remotely like a contentious >>thread with her, or with Index-L in general. >> >>I believe that her point was that if indexers are going to be forced to work >>with imbedded indexing, their lives would be much easier if the wretched >>modules worked well. >> >>But as I reflect on the evolution (devolution?) of publishing during the >years >>since that ASI conference, I am reinforced in my oft-stated conviction that >>publishing is not anything like 84 Charing Cross Road anymore, that the >>industry is overwhelmingly market-driven, and that books are moving from >being >>cherished to being merely ephemeral commodities. Certainly most technical >>books seem to be so. >> >>I never have been an in-house editor, so I speak only from inferences, not >>from experience. Always dangerous. But my sense is that editors >increasingly >>are pressured to strike often impossible balances between cost, schedule and >>quality. Even editors of impeccable professionalism and good conscience must >>make compromises that truly are Hobson's choices. >> >>I am reminded of Ambrose Bierce's definition of marriage as "a compromise >that >>satisfies neither party." >> >>So it seems that the editorial criterion for indexes is becoming (has >become?) >>one of "In good conscience, is it good enough?" Not is it the best, or the >>most gracefully structured, or the most comprehensive, or the most reader- >>friendly, but "Is it good enough?" >> >>In this climate I find it difficult to believe that most harried, pressured, >>editors would not welcome an adequate automated indexing capability, >available >>to in-house editors and to authors, that will generate an updatable index >that >>meets some basic requirements for functionality. >> >>Of course not all books will lend themselves to automated indexing. I >shudder >>to think of how the output of such a program would compare to one of Hazel >>bell's exquisitely-crafted biographical indexes. A machine that attempted to >>index John McPhee's "Annals of the Former World" probably would melt down >into >>a smoking heap of slag. >> >>There always will be some need for professional indexers. But technology has >>an energy and a momentum of its own, and no latter-day Luddites will stop the >>relentless enveloping of our lives (I hope not our souls) by the digital >>tsunami. >> >>So John's cautionary comment is, in my view, entirely appropriate. Don't >know >>just what we can do with this insight. Might be somewhat like the Asteroid >>doomsday flicks, in which the astronomer says: "Three days, five hours and >>twenty minutes to impact." Not that precise, of course, but still useful to >>keep one eye on the heavens, looking for new software modules that are on >>Indexer-Crossing orbits. >> >>Hey! Let's hear it for the dinosaurs! >> >>Bob >> > >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= >Wright Information Indexing Services >http://www.wrightinformation.com >Jancw@wrightinformation.com >+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 12:39:03 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing Richard Raper wrote: > > ... try as I can, i have not yet found a way that [HTML Indexer] > can index the contents of a file. Surely three identifying entries, > for example, to a file containg 20 thousand words of text is > unsatisfactory. perhaps David can enlighten me on how toi make it > do this properly. Nearly two months ago, I suggested to Mr. Raper that he take a few minutes to run through the tutorial. It's pretty clear that he still hasn't done that. The "three identifying entries" to which he refers are the default entries--one for the file itself and one each of the two anchors within it. If he'd been through the tutorial, Mr. Raper would know that the default entries are only a starting point. As is clearly explained in the online help and the FAQ, and demonstrated repeatedly in the tutorial: YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT THE DEFAULT ENTRIES. THEY ARE THERE SIMPLY TO REMIND YOU OF THE INFORMATION LOCATED AT THE ASSOCIATED TARGETS. YOU CAN CREATE AS MANY INDEX ENTRIES AS YOU LIKE FOR ANY EXISTING TARGET. YOU CAN INDEX OTHER LOCATIONS IN A FILE BY ADDING MORE NAMED ANCHORS TO THE FILE, USING ANY HTML OR TEXT EDITOR. As I've explained to Mr. Raper personally, HTML Indexer DOES NOT create index entries FOR YOU. Perhaps he should've waited for the automated indexing software we've been discussing for the last day or so. He seems to have missed the point of HTML Indexer entirely. To read a few comments from people who really *have* used HTML Indexer, please see "User Feedback" at the URL below. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:04:51 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Automatic Indexing Redux ROBJRICH@AOL.COM wrote: > > I see no connection between usability and support costs Consider the index to an online help system--a better index means the user finds answers in the help system, rather than calling customer support. > There also is a possible downside to using imbedded indexing when > dealing with a second edition. ...imbedding an index might ensure ease > of maintenance, but it also might mean perpetuating a poor index. On the contrary, embedded index entries can be edited or deleted, and new entries can be added as needed. Remember, embedding is only a matter of storage. It imposes no constraints on the quality of the index entries or the overall structure of the index. > I never have had the sense that most clients hold "usability" as a > primary criterion for indexes. My statement was that the usability of the *document* increases with the addition of a well crafted index, and that increased usability translates into fewer lost prospects, fewer support calls, greater reader satisfation (depending on the nature of the document, of course). I don't know how it is in the print publishing world, but our clients (primarily in the software and hardware industries) are *very* interested in those results. They have been happy with the indexes we create (some of which have even been excellent) and have never balked at giving us time to create them. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:13:56 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated indexing Richard Evans wrote: > > I attended an STC lecture on marketing yourself. The first thing the > lecturer said was that you can't sell a solution to a problem that the > customer doesn't realize he has. This suddenly made perfect sense to > me. Now I only spend time with people who realize they have a problem > and ask for my advice. Without a bit of customer education (or self promotion, if you like) how can the indexer expand into the hypertext world, where the lure of fast and cheap full-text search is so strong? --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kevin A. Broccoli" Subject: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing Yes, we need to separate HTML Indexer from automatic indexing software. It's to "aid" in indexing and does a fine job at it when using for Web sites or intranets. Like Macrex or Cindex, you wouldn't expect it to generate the index for you. As David brought out, you create anchors w/in the text which you can add index entries to in the actual index. It is one of the top tools out there for internet indexing. Kevin Broccoli > >-----Original Message----- >From: David M. Brown >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 3:39 PM >Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing > > >>Richard Raper wrote: >>> >>> ... try as I can, i have not yet found a way that [HTML Indexer] >>> can index the contents of a file. Surely three identifying entries, >>> for example, to a file containg 20 thousand words of text is >>> unsatisfactory. perhaps David can enlighten me on how toi make it >>> do this properly. >> >>Nearly two months ago, I suggested to Mr. Raper that he take a few >>minutes to run through the tutorial. It's pretty clear that he still >>hasn't done that. >> >>The "three identifying entries" to which he refers are the default >>entries--one for the file itself and one each of the two anchors within >>it. If he'd been through the tutorial, Mr. Raper would know that the >>default entries are only a starting point. >> >>As is clearly explained in the online help and the FAQ, and demonstrated >>repeatedly in the tutorial: >> >> YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT THE DEFAULT ENTRIES. THEY ARE >> THERE SIMPLY TO REMIND YOU OF THE INFORMATION LOCATED AT >> THE ASSOCIATED TARGETS. >> >> YOU CAN CREATE AS MANY INDEX ENTRIES AS YOU LIKE FOR ANY >> EXISTING TARGET. >> >> YOU CAN INDEX OTHER LOCATIONS IN A FILE BY ADDING MORE >> NAMED ANCHORS TO THE FILE, USING ANY HTML OR TEXT EDITOR. >> >>As I've explained to Mr. Raper personally, HTML Indexer DOES NOT create >>index entries FOR YOU. Perhaps he should've waited for the automated >>indexing software we've been discussing for the last day or so. >> >>He seems to have missed the point of HTML Indexer entirely. >> >>To read a few comments from people who really *have* used HTML Indexer, >>please see "User Feedback" at the URL below. >> >>--David >> >>============================= >> David M. Brown - Brown Inc. >> dmbrown@brown-inc.com >>============================= >> >>N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ >> >>Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real >>back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:03:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Absolutely Last Redux re Imbedded, etc. All (esp. David Brown) - Well, I suppose that it is important to define terms so that we know what we are agreeing to disagree about. David and I are not seeing different views of the same elephant. We're seeing entirely different elephants! I come from the mainstream print-medium point of view. David evidently embraces the programmer/software/online perspective. Sorry that we were at cross-purposes, David. Never occurred to me that we were talking about two different worlds (although they do seem to be converging). To mainstream print publishers the term "usability" is a fuzzy concept. There is no correlation with cost in this venue. That is not so for the online/computer-publishing world. To software vendors, the term "usability" is highly relevant, and is measurable. Many software vendors (e.g., Microsoft) spend big bucks evaluating usability, and the documentation is very much a part of that. I agree with David that from the software vendor pespective, increased "usability" of their documentation, online or printed, can correlate with fewer calls to tech support, and hence to lower costs. But this is not true for third-party publishers of computer guidebooks who don't sell the software they are writing about. For them, a poor index might frustrate the reader but it won' t generate calls to their editors for technical help. However, it might generate calls to the software vendor. So in a sense any deficiency in computer help manuals eventually will reflect in higher costs to someone, either to the software vendor and/or to the poor user who often must pay for calls to tech support. So David and I are speaking from different points of view, and I don't think that we really are in disagreement at all. As to the question of imbedded indexes tending to perpetuate mediocre indexes - - well, I will let that slumbering rhinocerous lie undisturbed. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 00:49:06 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh@MILLCOMM.COM Subject: Re: automated indexing OK, Kevin, here is my view of how truly automated indexing could *eventually* be done in a way that could hold its own with human indexers on at least some book-length material. In my previous career in the computer industry, I had occasion to receive briefings on an AI project called CYC, run by Doug Lenat. The firm I worked for was supporting the research and I was one of the people charged with "transferring the technology" to our company when feasible. More about this after an aside. There is a form of AI which uses rules to reason about a field. This is not a future technology, but has been in practice for at least fifteen years. These computer programs use rules derived (at great expense and effort with specialist involvement) from human experts in the practice of that field, and have the logic needed to develop solutions or recommended actions by applying the rules to an actual situation. The AI programs which do this are called "expert systems." Examples of fields where expert systems have been developed include oil exploration, consumer credit approval and medical diagnosis. I think it would be feasible to develop rules for producing an index for certain types of material, say for a special subject field or a formulaic book ("XYZ for Dummies" comes to mind), *once the concepts and relationships in the book were understood.* In my view, the understanding of the natural language found in the material being indexed is the fundamental challenge of true automated indexing, rather than the construction of a usable index. No matter how extensive the dictionary and grammar references available to the computer, understanding the language seems a hopeless task. I need not explain to readers of index-l the role of context and knowledge about the world in understanding what a sentence in English is about. If you ever watch Jay Leno's "Headlines" feature you know how ambiguity abounds in everyday written language, just waiting to trip up the unsuspecting computer program. Computers are lousy at this because they don't experience the world, and only "know" what the program and data contain. This has been identified as a key obstacle in having computers read and understand (i.e. accurately identify meaning, concepts and relationships) language as it is used by people, as opposed to language formulated for easy understanding by a computer. Doug Lenat's Project CYC has as its goal the creation of a data base of common sense rules, in other words, rules about how the world works, in order to guide interpretation of written language and solve once and for all the natural language understanding problem. "Ambitious" is far from adequate to describe this goal. Ten years ago, when I was somewhat up to date with the project, he had just increased his estimate of the number of rules required to understand 8th grade level English from 100,000 to 1,000,000. (The rules have to include all the basic information a child learns in the early years: if you let go of an object in midair it falls, when you spill something it spreads out into a puddle, a person cannot be the parent of someone younger than they are, to reach a high object you climb on something, causes cannot happen after consequences, etc. etc. etc.) Referring to the chess analogy, these rules would be the equivalent of the board, pieces, legal moves and rules, strategy and tactics of chess. Obviously, understanding the world to this degree dwarfs the chess-playing program in complexity. The research consortium Lenat worked in has been disbanded, but I read last year that he has obtained funding to continue the work. He is an excellent salesman for his ideas, and has obviously found some organization with deep pockets that hopes to profit from the successful completion of the project. (He is now thinking it will take 10,000,000 rules. Does the word "perseverance" come to mind?) I cannot predict whether Lenat will succeed, or when. However, I do predict that no automatic indexing tool will do an adequate job on back-of-the-book indexing until it has the capability to understand natural language with good reliability. I also predict that natural language understanding will remain unsolved until someone succeeds in "teaching" a computer program at least as much about how the world works as any normal four-year-old child knows. Unfortunately, some publishers find printing the poor excuses for indexes now produced by automated tools preferable to incurring the time and expense of a human indexer. Take comfort in the slim likelihood of a true automated replacement for human indexing, but also be prepared for the day when some of your clients succumb to this sad trend. Larry Harrison [SPAM-proof return address; to reply to me remove NOSPAM] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 23:10:13 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Leonard Will Subject: Re: plural forms of words in indexes In-Reply-To: <921064136.2010610.0@listserv.cuny.edu> In article <921064136.2010610.0@listserv.cuny.edu>, on Wed, 10 Mar 1999 at 22:05:10, Jon & Glenda writes >It is generally agreed that index entries in general books should be written >in the plural form for countable things (e.g. dogs) and that non-countable >things (e.g. honesty) should be in the singular. > >Does anyone have a good explanation why this is the best way? I always think that this is sensible because when you are indexing a whole book, or a collection of journal articles or museum objects, you are in effect assigning items to a category. The index entry "teapots" will have after it lots of references to all kinds of teapot, not normally just one teapot. The plural is the more natural form of heading for a generic category or a subject heading. This is a long-standing discussion I continue to have with my colleagues in the field of thesaurus development for museum object documentation, because they think of "naming an object" when they catalogue it, whereas I believe they should be thinking of "assigning the object to a category". The heading for the category may not be the precise name of the object, but it is a convenient label for retrieval purposes which can encompass several alternative "non-preferred" terms. Non-count-nouns such as the names of materials or concepts often mean something different in the singular and the plural (e.g. water, brass, wood) and in any case they imply a general category rather than a specific instance, so the singular is appropriate. The ISO standard for thesaurus construction (ISO 2788-1986) says that you can use the plural in specialised fields where "the community of users served by the index regards a given substance or material as a class with more than one member" (e.g. plastics, poisons). >Secondly, technical books often have entries in the singular form. Is there >any good reason for this, and has anyone seen problems in this? Perhaps they are again thinking of naming specific items of hardware rather than classes. Also I believe that singulars are more commonly used in French and German thesauri, so there may be a transfer of thinking from these. Leonard Will -- Willpower Information (Partners: Dr Leonard D Will, Sheena E Will) Information Management Consultants Tel: +44 181 372 0092 27 Calshot Way, Enfield, Middlesex, EN2 7BQ, UK Fax: +44 181 372 0094 L.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk Sheena.Will@Willpower.demon.co.uk --------------- --------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:17:34 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Raper Organization: Indexing Specialists Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing We have (both me and several colleagues in my company) have executed the teaching program and have explored every which way in how your claims are made to work. I can only conclude that your instruction notes make assumptions that don't allow for 'bears with very little brains'! Remember, when teaching others, your client is not necessarily a fool, but if they are into the deep end they need help in getting afloat. I would be delighted as anybody if I can make your software work effectively in support of the claims made for it; but so far instructions for using it are insufficient. There is no advantage treating your readers as inadequate, if your reader fails to grasp what you are saying. Surely the best way is to explain again how in a way that makes it easier to understand. Richard Raper David M. Brown wrote: > Richard Raper wrote: > > > > ... try as I can, i have not yet found a way that [HTML Indexer] > > can index the contents of a file. Surely three identifying entries, > > for example, to a file containg 20 thousand words of text is > > unsatisfactory. perhaps David can enlighten me on how toi make it > > do this properly. > > Nearly two months ago, I suggested to Mr. Raper that he take a few > minutes to run through the tutorial. It's pretty clear that he still > hasn't done that. > > The "three identifying entries" to which he refers are the default > entries--one for the file itself and one each of the two anchors within > it. If he'd been through the tutorial, Mr. Raper would know that the > default entries are only a starting point. > > As is clearly explained in the online help and the FAQ, and demonstrated > repeatedly in the tutorial: > > YOU DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT THE DEFAULT ENTRIES. THEY ARE > THERE SIMPLY TO REMIND YOU OF THE INFORMATION LOCATED AT > THE ASSOCIATED TARGETS. > > YOU CAN CREATE AS MANY INDEX ENTRIES AS YOU LIKE FOR ANY > EXISTING TARGET. > > YOU CAN INDEX OTHER LOCATIONS IN A FILE BY ADDING MORE > NAMED ANCHORS TO THE FILE, USING ANY HTML OR TEXT EDITOR. > > As I've explained to Mr. Raper personally, HTML Indexer DOES NOT create > index entries FOR YOU. Perhaps he should've waited for the automated > indexing software we've been discussing for the last day or so. > > He seems to have missed the point of HTML Indexer entirely. > > To read a few comments from people who really *have* used HTML Indexer, > please see "User Feedback" at the URL below. > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. -- Richard Raper Indexing Specialists Tel: 01273 738299 Home page http://www.indexing.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "John R. Sullivan" Subject: Re: automated indexing Larry Harrison wrote: <> My last comments on this subject (at least until this thread works its way back around on Index-L again), and then I'll crawl back into my hole. Obviously, such an understanding of the world dwarfs just about everything else in complexity. However, keep in mind that chess is an incredibly complex game that many people play but very few play well. I see many parallels between writing (and indexing, for that matter) and chess playing. Chess computers cheat, of course. They have instantaneous access to huge libraries of opening moves; they can instantly compare each position to a database of millions of games by the best players. Imagine playing a game of chess against an opponent who has a perfect memory of every game you've ever played, every game Garry Kasparov has ever played, every game that Bobby Fischer has ever played. Kind of puts you, the lowly human, at a bit of a disadvantage. Automatic indexing software may never be any better than it is today. However, there's the potential that it could reach a level of sophistication that would make it attractive to some low-life publishers. So don't dismiss it outright. I can say no more. John Sullivan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:58:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: New Mexico Spring Indexing Workshop NEW MEXICO SPRING INDEXING WORKSHOP WITH DO MI STAUBER AND LORI LATHROP Join the A to Zia Indexers on Saturday, May 1st when Do Mi Stauber presen= ts her popular workshop: FACING THE TEXT: CONTENT ANALYSIS AND ENTRY SELECTION IN SOCIAL SCIENCES = AND HUMANITIES INDEXING Past participants in Do Mi's workshop have called her a dynamic and elect= ric speaker. Whether you=92re an experienced indexer or are just getting started, what= ever your areas of expertise, this is a great opportunity to develop and expand your indexin= g skills. Also joining us will be ASI president Lori Lathrop, who will give us an u= pdate on current ASI activities at the national level. Do Mi's participatory workshop focuses on the practical processes of inde= xing. We will survey the steps that indexers follow as we interpret texts and create in= dex structures, using examples and hands-on exercises from a range of real texts and inde= xes. This workshop covers back-of-book indexing of both scholarly books and textboo= ks in the social sciences and humanities. It is not a basic introduction to indexing, but = novices as well as experienced indexers should benefit. Among the subjects to be discusse= d: main topics, indexable topics, index structure, subheads, cross references, and wordin= g. Do Mi Stauber has been a full-time back-of-book indexer for the past elev= en years. She managed Twin Oaks Indexing Collective for two years, supervising and trai= ning a group of indexers. She indexes scholarly books, textbooks, and government document= s in all of the social sciences and humanities. She has been the chair of the Wilson Awar= d judging committee and is the author of "Jewels in the Cavern: The Special Challen= ge of Scholarly Indexing." DATE: Saturday, May 1, 1999 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. LOCATION: Lomas/Tramway Public Library, 908 Eastridge Dr. NE, Albuquerque= , NM. Directions will be sent with registration confirmation. COST: $75 for ASI members, $85 for nonmembers. After April 19th, add $10= . Snacks, coffee & tea, and a delicious Mexican lunch are included. SCHEDULE: 8:30 - 9:00 Registration 9:00 - 12:15 Morning workshop session 12:15 - 1:45 Lunch, ASI update from Lori Lathrop 1:45 - 5:00 Afternoon workshop session TO REGISTER: Please print the form below and send it by April 19th with a= check for $75 (ASI members) or $85 (nonmembers), payable to A to Zia Indexers, to: Nancy Ford, Treasurer 66 Skyland Tijeras, NM 87059 Registration after April 19th is $85 for ASI members, $95 for nonmembers. For more information, contact Caroline Parks (cparks@mindspring.com, 505-= 286-2738). If you'll need overnight accommodations, please call us for hotel recommenda= tions; it's possible we'll have a room or two available in local members' homes as we= ll. _______________________________________________________ A TO ZIA INDEXERS SPRING WORKSHOP -- MAY 1, 1999 "FACING THE TEXT" with DO MI STAUBER REGISTRATION FORM Name _______________________________________ Address _____________________________________ _____________________________________ Phone ___________________ Fax ______________ Email _______________________________________ In order to help Do Mi Stauber focus her presentation to the audience, pl= ease answer the following questions: How long have you been indexing? _______________ What type of materials do you index? _____________________________________________ What are your main areas/subjects of expertise? _____________________________________________ Make checks payable to A to Zia Indexers. Mail this form with your check= for $75 (ASI members) or $85 (nonmembers) (after April 19th add $10) to Nancy Ford 66 Skyland Tijeras, NM 87059 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:05:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: Automatic Indexing Redux Bob wrote: >David wrote: >>"The person Mr. Sullivan describes is probably >>already comfortable with the idea that increased >>usability means lower support costs, lower reader >>dissatisfaction, fewer lost prospects, and so on." >I see no connection between usability and support >costs (I assume that "support costs" means revising >an index as a book moves into subsequent editions). Interesting take. In the industry where I work, "support costs" related to indexing almost always means "Can the customer find information easily in the document -- or will we have to hire more technical support engineers to answer phone calls?" >I had the opportunity, in indexing the secondedition >of a text that I had indexed five years before, to >create a much better index the second time around. >Many of the changes in the index were structural. >Merely tweaking an imbedded index, in that case, >would have interfered with that improvement. Hm. Completely restructuring an embedded index is a matter of (first) running a macro to strip the embedded field codes and (then) re-indexing from scratch. Not significantly more work than indexing the document in the first place. Five years? Second edition? You & I work in very different environments! The documents I index (mostly technical manuals) go through at least one edition a year, if not four. >In other words, imbedding an index might ensure ease >of maintenance, but italso might mean perpetuating a >poor index. I think, if an indexer is going to perpetuate a poor index, that implies a poor indexer (or at least one with his or her hands tied by impossible project requirements) rather than a poor tool. >>The indexer's task is to show that potential client >>that usability increases with the addition of a well >>crafted index. From there, it's an easy step to get >>the client to pay for that index: They're also >>familiar with the idea that you have to invest if >>you expect to get anyreturn." >There are a number of assunptions in that assertion >that might be difficult to support. I never have had >the sense that most clients hold "usability"as a >primary criterion for indexes. So far, my employers have all been highly aware of "usability" as an important criterion for all aspects of their products. A customer who can't find relevant information *quickly* in the manual (online *or* printed) is not going to be satisfied with the product. That means high tech-support costs, returned products, and bad press. When I can cite usability studies in my cost estimates, more often than not I'm getting the tools, time, and even on occasion the outsourcing budget I need for good indexing. >In my experience it never has been "an easy step to >get the client to pay for that [well-crafted] index"! >[...] It simply is because they are not paid to take >the long view. They are paid to get that book out on >schedule and on budget Your editors have a totally different set of problems than mine! There isn't always a "long view" taken in this industry either -- but there are the considerations I mentioned above. Also, the documentation often is produced as "alpha" and "beta" versions (as is the product), allowing for frequent (sometimes as often as monthly) refinement of the index before it is offered to the public. >difficult to imagine a scenario in which an editor >meets with her marketing and production people and >says that she intends to go overbudget by another > eight hundred dollars and also to delay the book >three weeks in order to get a superior,reader-friendly >"usable" index that will lower reader >dissatisfaction, and that they should consider this >as "an investment" from which they will gain a >significant return. I would think, if your editor has no vested interest in the consequences ("People can't use this manual! Calls to tech support have increased 200%! Lynch the editor!") she would have no reason to strain her budget that way. >Regarding doctrinaire controversy: In Gulliver's >Travels he came across the Big Endians, who opened >their eggs on the large end, and the Little >Endians, who opened only the small ends of their >eggs. Their convictions were so strong that they went >to war over this. Sporadic outbreaks of fighting continue, but I think Intel has mostly won this one. And now, speaking of eggs, I have to figure out how to make a small hole in both ends of a raw egg without the thing collapsing all over my hands. == RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:25:43 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: automated indexing vs. embedded indexing In-Reply-To: > We have (both me and several colleagues in my company) have executed the > teaching program and have explored every which way in how your claims are > made to work. I can only conclude that your instruction notes make > assumptions that don't allow for 'bears with very little brains'! My impression when trying the tutorial was that it used items in the example Web pages which were not meant for making indexes. It was very easy but the result made little sense as an index. I then tried indexing another Web site, but I felt I was inventing my own way of using HTML Indexer rather than applying what I had learned in the tutorial. I believe one must start by embedding indexing terms in the Web pages to be indexed, and the tutorial should start this way too. It may not be so easy or so suitable as a quick evaluation, but it would start the beginner on the right track. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:10:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dafydd Llwyd Talcott <75711.1537@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Weekend posts arrive on Tuesday?? AOL is ALWAYS the culprit. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Indexing humor So, okay, I'm indexing Pharmacoeconomics and I need a little levity. Here goes: What's Skindex: a) a new piece of indexing software b) a dermatological quality-of-life-instrument c) the name of an indexing business whose owner's initials are S.K. One correct answer is b. Look it up in MedLine. Honest. Shelley Greenhouse a very silly database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:35:59 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: Indexing humor In a message dated 99-03-11 17:54:04 EST, greenhou@EROLS.COM writes: << Shelley Greenhouse- a very silly database indexer >> thanks heavens for humor. I can use some today. I did find one item in book today called "in vivo role modeling" I spend a few happy minutes imagining using a corpse as a role model. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:24:04 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Indexing humor Would someone who avoided throwing rocks from a glass house be an in vitro role model??? Sharon Hughes wrote: > I did find one item in > book today called "in vivo role modeling" I spend a few happy minutes > imagining using a corpse as a role model. > > Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:25:16 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig@sprynet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nicholas W. Koenig" Subject: Re: Indexing humor I know not what course others may take, but I refuse to use Skindex until I am assured it will not leave streaks. S. Greenhouse wrote: > > So, okay, I'm indexing Pharmacoeconomics and I need a little levity. Here > goes: > > What's Skindex: > a) a new piece of indexing software > b) a dermatological quality-of-life-instrument > c) the name of an indexing business whose owner's initials are S.K. > > One correct answer is b. Look it up in MedLine. Honest. > > Shelley Greenhouse > a very silly database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:12:00 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: indexing HTML files (was "automated indexing vs. embedded indexing") J.R. Sampson wrote: > > I believe one must start by embedding indexing > terms in the Web pages to be indexed. A hypertext link has to point to a specific location--a place to go when you click on the link. In HTML, a hypertext link can point to a filename or a named anchor. (Web addresses, like www.brown-inc.com, are implied filenames, so I won't single them out in this discussion.) If you have an HTML file, you have a potential target for a link. If that file contains a named anchor, you have another potential target for a link. In a "back of the book"-style index (such as HTML Indexer creates), the index entries are links to those targets. Each index entry looks like this: cats, grooming The phrase "cats, grooming" is your index entry, typically shown in blue text with an underline. When you click on it, your browser will open the file Cats.html and scroll down to the point where it finds an anchor that looks like this: ... The former is called a "hypertext reference anchor" or "HREF anchor;" the latter is a "named anchor." Together they form a hypertext link. For a file, the HREF anchor looks like this (and you don't need a named anchor): poodles The word "poodles" is your index entry. When you click on it, your browser will open the file Poodles.html. That's pretty much it. You can create links to files, but can't jump to a point *within* a file unless there's a named anchor there. If you want your index entry to point to the top of a file, you don't need to do anything. If you want your index entry to point to a specific location *within* a file, you have to put a named anchor at that location. That's the only "embedding" you have to do. This has nothing to do with HTML Indexer--it's the definition of HTML. Hypertext links, such as your index entries, must specify filenames and anchor names precisely with careful attention to capitalization and relative paths, using a nonintuitive syntax in which mistakes are easy to make and hard to spot. HTML Indexer saves you having to worry about filenames, paths, anchor names, and HTML syntax by handling them for you. It shows you the files in your index project and any named anchors it finds within those files. Beginning a new project, HTML Indexer shows you *all* the potential targets. You decide which files and anchors you want to create index entries for, and which ones you want to exclude from your index. You create as many index entries as you like for those files and anchors that you've chosen to include in your index. There's no limit on the number of entries that point to any one target, length, or levels of nesting you can use. If you need to remind yourself of the content of your HTML files, you open them in your HTML browser. (In HTML Indexer, just select the file you want to view, then select View > Selected Source File.) If you decide to create an index entry that points to another location in a file, you use your HTML editor to add a named anchor there. (In HTML Indexer, just select the file you want to edit, then select Edit > Selected Source File.) The next time you open that file in HTML Indexer, it finds the new anchor and shows it to you along with all the other files and anchors, in a familiar hierarchical "project tree." HTML Indexer won't let you create index entries that don't point to a valid target, because they wouldn't work in your index. HTML Indexer cannot get the targets wrong, so you can't accidentally create index entries that won't work. I'd be happy to discuss HTML Indexer, or indexing HTML and other hypertext documents in general, with anyone who's interested. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:41:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: Compact Pro If you're one of those people who hoard information that may one day come in handy, this snippet may save you hours of grief in the future. A client (Australia's largest typesetting company) emailed me a set of compressed files with the extension ".SEA". I was unable to open it using any decompression software I could lay my hands on, including WinZip. The client was using a Macintosh and was rather perplexed that I use a PC. They had used compression software called Compact Pro, a program specifically for Macintoshes. Because the files were to big to email uncompressed it looked as though I would lose the job. However, I was able to track down a program that runs on PCs whose function is to extract files from CompactPro. It's not easy to use, but it does the job. It's called ExtractorPC and you can download it free from http://www.cyclos.com/extractorpc.htm So if a client send you a file with the extension .sea, don't panic! Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:16:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ":) christy" Subject: Re: Compact Pro I thought .sea files were self-extracting archives--just double click and they open. But what do I know? :) christy Michael Wyatt wrote: > > If you're one of those people who hoard information that may one day come in > handy, this snippet may save you hours of grief in the future. > > A client (Australia's largest typesetting company) emailed me a set of > compressed files with the extension ".SEA". I was unable to open it using > any decompression software I could lay my hands on, including WinZip. The > client was using a Macintosh and was rather perplexed that I use a PC. They > had used compression software called Compact Pro, a program specifically for > Macintoshes. Because the files were to big to email uncompressed it looked > as though I would lose the job. > > However, I was able to track down a program that runs on PCs whose function > is to extract files from CompactPro. It's not easy to use, but it does the > job. It's called ExtractorPC and you can download it free from > http://www.cyclos.com/extractorpc.htm > > So if a client send you a file with the extension .sea, don't panic! > > Michael Wyatt > Keyword Editorial Services > 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia > Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 > keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:15:08 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael C. Rossa" Subject: South Central Chapter/ASI Embedded Indexing Workshop The South Central Chapter of the American Society of Indexers is pleased to announce our Spring Meeting/Workshop, "Embedded Indexing and Electronic Documents," to be held on Saturday, April 10, 1999 at the Radisson Hotel & Suites Dallas, 2330 Northwest Highway, Dallas, TX 75220. We are excited to offer this valuable full-day workshop, led by Larry S. Bonura, a well-known technical writer and indexer in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex. Larry says this about the workshop: "Many of us have to create our indexes using electronic publishing or help authoring packages for online documents. Sometimes these packages can present quite a challenge to getting the index out the door. This workshop will discuss how to create embedded indexes--those indexes that have to be created in an electronic publishing tool, using Word and FrameMaker. Also, we'll look at using RoboHELP to create online documents with indexes." Larry Bonura is the author of The Art of Indexing, published by John Wiley & Sons, and teaches indexing seminars to technical documentation specialists across the nation. He is a senior member of the Society for Technical Communication (Lone Star Chapter) and the Region 5 STC Indexing SIG regional representative. He is a technical writer and web designer who has worked in the telecommunications, computer, database, and Internet fields. Larry is also a member of the American Society of Indexers (South Central Chapter). SCHEDULE: 8:00 A.M. - 9:00 A.M. Networking (Continental Breakfast Included) 9:00 A.M. - 12:00 P.M. Embedded Indexing Workshop 12:00 P.M. - 1:00 P.M. Catered Lunch 1:00 P.M. - 3:30 P.M. Embedded Indexing Workshop Continues 3:30 P.M. - 4:30 P.M. South Central Chapter Business Meeting COST: Until March 26: $65.00 (ASI member) $80.00 (nonmember) After March 26: $75.00 (ASI member) $90.00 (nonmember) Registration includes the full-day workshop, continental breakfast, a catered lunch, and morning and afternoon refreshments. Please make checks payable to "South Central Chapter of ASI" and return to: Laura Rustin 9731 Greenwillow Houston, TX 77096 (713) 728-4473 If you register directly from this message to Laura Rustin, please indicate your lunch choice of Chicken Monterey or vegetarian. LODGING: The Radisson Hotel is offering reduced rates to workshop attendees. They are $89 and $99 for single and double rooms, respectively. Be sure to confirm these rates when making reservations. Radisson Hotel & Suites Dallas, 2330 Northwest Highway, Dallas, TX 75220, (214) 351-4477, Worldwide Reservations (800) 333-3333 For more information or to receive a flier with registration form and directions, please contact Mike Rossa at (972) 267-2537 or via e-mail at . Mike Rossa president-elect/program chair South Central Chapter/ASI ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:18:23 -0800 Reply-To: dmbrown@brown-inc.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Compact Pro christy wrote: > > I thought .sea files were self-extracting archives--just double click > and they open. You're right, but they run only in Mac OS. To open them on a PC, you need a program that knows how to peel back the self-extraction wrapper to expose the juicy bits. :) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:05:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: OFF TOPIC: New Carissa You are following the saga of the New Carissa, the %#@*# boat that keeps returning to the coast of Oregon, right? Well, the Lincoln City locals are making the most of it, selling T-shirts with the logo: Ship Happens Will somebody please pass this along to the CEL-mates and the tech writers list - they would love this play on words. Martha O Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:27:09 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Subject: plural forms of words in indexes Glenda wrote: It is generally agreed that index entries in general books should be written in the plural form for countable things (e.g. dogs) and that non-countable things (e.g. honesty) should be in the singular. Does anyone have a good explanation why this is the best way? Wellisch (Indexing from A to Z) says "Austin [PRECIS] observed that this rule is intuitively applied by all of us in everyday language" and quotes the famous verse from "The Walrus and the Carpenter". Is everyone's intuition identical? It seems that the "everybody knows" defence is the closest to a good explanation we're likely to get. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:30:13 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "" Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In a message dated 3/9/99 8:02:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, JPerlman@AOL.COM writes: What, in actual dollars is the indexable page rate that most people are quoting. Is there a range depending on page size? What are most publishers agreeing to? Another question: What are the Index-L archives and how do I access them? question 3: What do people think of Cindex for Windows compared to Cindex for DOS? So far I find the Windows version hard to get used to, and am still using Cindex6. Looking forward to your responses. Thanks. Marion Lerner Levine ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In-Reply-To: <199903112332.reh66l.mg6.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> At 11:30 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >question 3: What do people think of Cindex for Windows compared to Cindex >for DOS? So far I find the Windows version hard to get used to, and am >still using >Cindex6. I will relinquish CINDEX DOS when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Once you become a power user of a command line interface, there is no comparison to a GUI interface. I did 60 books last year, and over 20,000 pages. Speed is my friend and speed is simply absent from the Windows version. Also notably absent are the ability to assign executable actions (complex patterns searchs and the like) to function keys and a full-fledged macro capability. If you didn't use those features in DOS, you probably don't miss them in Windows, but I would be seriously hobbled without them. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:26:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lisa Schulz Subject: Career path Okay, this newbie is properly impressed by from watching the list chat. I'm almost done with library school,(MLS) and I have the opportunity to take the class 'Indexing and Abstracting'. What other preparation would me to land a job in indexing? I've spent years nit-picking over digital databases as a Cartographer, and I do book reviews for the Journal of Government Information. Plus I've done the public services thing in libraries for 9 years and I know I prefer working with concepts to working with people. Am I marketable? Please tip me off to the best leads for jobs also. Assuming I'm mobile, which are the companies to watch? Thanks much for an insider's view! - Lisa Schulz, St Louis LSchulz@Maryville.edu or Wooflberry@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC: New Carissa I heard on NPR this morning that they finally had to use a torpedo from a nuclear submarine to sink the thing-- 70 rounds from a destroyer didn't do the job. The manufacturers of that ship should be very proud! :-) -- Sharon W. x7255 Rm. 223 Sharon.Wright@Lexis-Nexis.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Back Words Indexing [SMTP:index@TELEPORT.COM] > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 9:05 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: OFF TOPIC: New Carissa > > You are following the saga of the New Carissa, the %#@*# boat that keeps > returning to the coast of Oregon, right? Well, the Lincoln City locals > are > making the most of it, selling T-shirts with the logo: Ship > Happens > > Will somebody please pass this along to the CEL-mates and the tech writers > list > - they would love this play on words. > > Martha O > Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:31:41 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Toni Williams TPG/SG Subject: Re: Indexing humor There are some days when they would make the very best ones. TGIF! > -----Original Message----- > From: Sharon Hughes [SMTP:SHughes512@AOL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 1999 3:36 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: Indexing humor > > In a message dated 99-03-11 17:54:04 EST, greenhou@EROLS.COM writes: > > << Shelley Greenhouse- a very silly database indexer >> > > thanks heavens for humor. I can use some today. I did find one item in > book today called "in vivo role modeling" I spend a few happy minutes > imagining using a corpse as a role model. > > Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:02:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Career path In a message dated 99-03-12 07:29:17 EST, Wooflberry@AOL.COM writes: > Okay, this newbie is properly impressed by from watching the list chat. I'm > almost done with library school,(MLS) and I have the opportunity to take the > class 'Indexing and Abstracting'. What other preparation would me to land a > job in indexing? I've spent years nit-picking over digital databases as a > Cartographer, and I do book reviews for the Journal of Government > Information. > Plus I've done the public services thing in libraries for 9 years and I know > I > prefer working with concepts to working with people. Am I marketable? > Please tip me off to the best leads for jobs also. Assuming I'm mobile, > which > are the companies to watch? Thanks much for an insider's view! > - Lisa Schulz, St Louis Unfortunately, a library school class in indexing and abstracting will not teach you to actually do indexing. At least if it's anything like the class I taught at Dominican University (formerly Rosary College). The class focussed on theoretical background for indexing and abstracting, such as exhaustivity, consistency, specificity, without covering how to do indexing. I would suggest taking the USDA course or an introduction to indexing course, which is taught through a number of continuing education programs around the country, such as the University of Chicago's Publishing Program. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Abstracting ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:42:21 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: automated indexing larry wrote: >a form of AI [...] use rules derived (at great >expense and effort with specialist involvement) from >human experts in the practice of that field, and have >the logic needed to develop solutions or recommended >actions by applying the rules to an actual situation. >The AI programs which do this are called "expert >systems." I was involved with one of those systems in the early 80s. (Remember what LISP is an acronym for? *grin*) Sure, you could ("one could") produce a pretty decent automated indexer. However, IMHO, such a project would be useful only as an academic exercise. Some university might want to fund it, I suppose. The cost of developing such a system would be ridiculous compared to hiring any professional indexer, even if you kept the focus (i.e. the diversity of books it could process) narrow enough to control the expense of building the expertise. It would be a fun project, though ... == RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:23:08 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: indexing HTML files David, Thanks for a very lucid explantion of this topic. I have one question. If I understand correctly you can have multiple index entries point to the same "target". But, can you have an index entry that points to more than one "target"? My knowledge of HTML is rudimentary, so I apologise if this a "dumb" question. And my apologies to those on the list who are more than tired of this thread. Ann Ann Truesdale (anntrue@aol.com) TrueWords Freelance Services > > A hypertext link has to point to a specific location--a place to go when > you click on the link. In HTML, a hypertext link can point to a > filename or a named anchor. (Web addresses, like www.brown-inc.com, are > implied filenames, so I won't single them out in this discussion.) > > If you have an HTML file, you have a potential target for a link. If > that file contains a named anchor, you have another potential target for > a link. > > In a "back of the book"-style index (such as HTML Indexer creates), the > index entries are links to those targets. Each index entry looks like > this: > > cats, grooming > > The phrase "cats, grooming" is your index entry, typically shown in blue > text with an underline. When you click on it, your browser will open > the file Cats.html and scroll down to the point where it finds an anchor > that looks like this: > > ... > > The former is called a "hypertext reference anchor" or "HREF anchor;" > the latter is a "named anchor." Together they form a hypertext link. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:55:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: indexing HTML files Ann Truesdale wrote: > > ... you can have multiple index entries point to the same "target". Yes, in that sense a hypertext index is just like a print index, in which "grooming cats" and "cats, grooming" cite the same page number. > But, can you have an index entry that points to more than one "target"? Good question. As you thought, each hypertext link must point to exactly one target. There are ways to work around this characteristic: * In Windows help, if you click on an index entry that is associated with multiple help topics, you see a "Topics Found" list from which you must choose a specific topic to display. You could do the same thing in HTML by coding the common entry to point to a "mini-index" of the topics associated with it. * My own preference is to differentiate the topics within the index itself, typically using subentries under the common heading. Some indexers don't express concern that this makes the index larger than its print counterpart would be. I've never considered that a drawback in hypertext, where page count isn't an issue-- however, it's mostly a matter of personal preference. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:24:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In-Reply-To: <19990312101749.SBK27356@listserv.cuny.edu> Well, as one of the longest Cindex users (from the very first DOS version), after taking the time to familiarize myself with the Windows version, I find I make better time on it than on DOS. Yes, I missed the full-fledged macro capability at first. Prior to the Windows version, I used a separate macro utility called Prokey with Cindex for DOS because I did complex macros for entries. I have found now, though, that using the abbreviation capabilities of the Windows version coupled with the conveniences of the new Cindex, that I don't miss the macros as much as I thought I would. Speed is important to me, particularly on one 7,000+ entry index I do. I really feel that I have had at least a 10-20% gain with the Windows capabilities. Charles Anderson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Richard Evans Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:18 AM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... At 11:30 PM 3/11/99 -0500, you wrote: >question 3: What do people think of Cindex for Windows compared to Cindex >for DOS? So far I find the Windows version hard to get used to, and am >still using >Cindex6. I will relinquish CINDEX DOS when they pry it from my cold dead fingers. Once you become a power user of a command line interface, there is no comparison to a GUI interface. I did 60 books last year, and over 20,000 pages. Speed is my friend and speed is simply absent from the Windows version. Also notably absent are the ability to assign executable actions (complex patterns searchs and the like) to function keys and a full-fledged macro capability. If you didn't use those features in DOS, you probably don't miss them in Windows, but I would be seriously hobbled without them. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:13:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: Career path Even though a course in abstracting and indexing may emphasize theory instead of how-to, I would encourage you to sign up for it. How-to aspects of indexing can easily be picked up on your own from any number of sources. Theory is hard to come by, and it will stand you in good stead. My indexing education about 30 years ago came mainly from a library school courses in abstracting and indexing. I picked up the how-to via on-the-job mentoring. That was not at all difficult because I already had a good grasp of the basic principles. I also found the theoretical background useful in making library management decisions on setting up databases for in-house collections, thesaurus development or modification, online searching, etc. Jeanne Moody ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:38:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Deborah Shaw Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... In-Reply-To: <199903081259.re8410.mes.37kbi15@mx7.mindspring.com> A page is a manuscript page of 250 words, at least for the purpose of setting a fee. This is 10-point Courier, double spaced. If you have an electronic copy of the document, you can get a word count. That's unlikely, though, if you're indexing. An alternate method is to choose three pages at random, count the words, and average the word count. (You can also do this with lines.) If your normal rate is $3.00 per 250-word page for this type of material, and the page proofs average 500 words, then you'd quote a rate of $6.00 per page. You should test index five pages and time yourself before setting a per-page rate. The depth of indexing and complexity of the material means much more than a raw word count, but both you and the client need something tangible on which to hang the rate. Cheers, Deborah > OK, we've discussed per page charges for indexing, but what consitutes that "standard" page? < ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:33:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rowena Hart Subject: Indexing glossary items? Hi folks, If a large technical document has an extensive glossary, should you index the glossary terms? In other words, would you add an index marker (in FrameMaker) to the glossary term as it appears in the glossary? Thanks, Rowena ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowena Hart Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:33:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing glossary items? In-Reply-To: <199903121724.rej512.4uc.37kbi14@mx6.mindspring.com> At 02:33 PM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >If a large technical document has an extensive glossary, >should you index the glossary terms? In other words, >would you add an index marker (in FrameMaker) to the >glossary term as it appears in the glossary? As a freelancer, this decision is in the hands of my individual clients. Sometimes a client wants the glossary entry indexed with a qualifier of "defined" or "definition". On the other hand, there is generally no need to index material that is self indexing, such as a glossary, Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:48:56 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: voice programs and cindex for windows Hi all, Leslie here, back from a long break from posting.... I was recently in an auto accident and am having a lot of problems sitting at the computer for any extended period of time (can be from 1/2 hour to an hour, or less, depending on the day). I am thinking of how I can continue to meet my obligations and am wondering if anyone has used DragonSpeak (not sure if that is the name) or any similar programs with Cindex for Windows with any success. I would love to hear any and all feedback about as I have to make a decision about it in the next week or so. Thank a lot, Leslie Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:55:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: That hypothetical page.... At 04:38 PM 3/12/1999 -0500, Deborah Shaw wrote: >A page is a manuscript page of 250 words, at least for the purpose of >setting a fee. This is 10-point Courier, double spaced. If you have an >electronic copy of the document, you can get a word count. That's unlikely, >though, if you're indexing. An alternate method is to choose three pages at >random, count the words, and average the word count. (You can also do this >with lines.) Hmmm. In all my years of indexing, I've never been asked to index such a page. The only time I've ever seen double-spaced pages typed in 10 pt. Courier has been when editing, not indexing. IMO, this isn't a particularly useful definition of "standard page"...at least, not for indexers. >If your normal rate is $3.00 per 250-word page for this type of material, >and the page proofs average 500 words, then you'd quote a rate of $6.00 per >page. Well, again, you almost never index this kind of page. And if you did, and doubled your rate to $6 per page of 500 words, you'd have just about priced yourself out of the market. Of course, most book pages don't contain 500 words, but many contain 300-400 (particularly double-column pages). Even $5 a page is very high, except when working on technical or scholarly documents that are very dense with indexable terms. >You should test index five pages and time yourself before setting a >per-page rate. The depth of indexing and complexity of the material means >much more than a raw word count, but both you and the client need something >tangible on which to hang the rate. If I were in doubt about a reasonable page rate for a specific book, five pages would barely begin to tell me if I was in the ballpark. A test index for me would be at least one chapter, and preferably NOT the first chapter...which in many cases is introductory and not particularly dense. I agree, though, that the depth of indexing and complexity of material is much more important than the number of words on the page. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:09:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rowena Hart Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows Leslie, I don't know about Cindex compatability, but I do know the product you are asking about -- Dragon Naturally Speaking. The TECHWR-L listserve archives will contain a number of references to this program under CTS, RSI, and other injury-related subject headings. The word on the street about Dragon Naturally Speaking is that it takes a few weeks to "train" the program to recognize your voice. Until the program is trained (or you are trained, perhaps) there will be a great number of errors in any documents you produce. These must be edited out by hand. Best of luck, Rowena ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowena Hart Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: voice programs and cindex for windows >Hi all, Leslie here, back from a long break from posting.... >I was recently in an auto accident and am having a lot of problems sitting at >the computer for any extended period of time (can be from 1/2 hour to an hour, >or less, depending on the day). I am thinking of how I can continue to meet my >obligations and am wondering if anyone has used DragonSpeak (not sure if that >is the name) or any similar programs with Cindex for Windows with any success. >I would love to hear any and all feedback about as I have to make a decision >about it in the next week or so. >Thank a lot, > >Leslie >Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:43:54 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Charles R. Anderson" Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows In-Reply-To: <19990312230234.PWLR24770@listserv.cuny.edu> On the other hand, the Pentium III supposedly has 70 new instructions built in, some of which deal with Voice Recognition. An article I read recently said that a freelancer who had spent six months training Dragon Naturally Speaking to get to a 95% accuracy, obtained the same results in five minutes on a Pentium III. Sounds hard to believe - but maybe so. Charles Anderson -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Rowena Hart Sent: Friday, March 12, 1999 3:09 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows Leslie, I don't know about Cindex compatability, but I do know the product you are asking about -- Dragon Naturally Speaking. The TECHWR-L listserve archives will contain a number of references to this program under CTS, RSI, and other injury-related subject headings. The word on the street about Dragon Naturally Speaking is that it takes a few weeks to "train" the program to recognize your voice. Until the program is trained (or you are trained, perhaps) there will be a great number of errors in any documents you produce. These must be edited out by hand. Best of luck, Rowena ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rowena Hart Technical Writer Xcert International Inc. 1001-701 West Georgia Street Phone: 1 (604) 640-6210 Vancouver, BC, Canada V7Y 1C6 Fax: 1 (604) 640-6220 Web: http://www.xcert.com E-mail: rhart@xcert.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Friday, March 12, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: voice programs and cindex for windows >Hi all, Leslie here, back from a long break from posting.... >I was recently in an auto accident and am having a lot of problems sitting at >the computer for any extended period of time (can be from 1/2 hour to an hour, >or less, depending on the day). I am thinking of how I can continue to meet my >obligations and am wondering if anyone has used DragonSpeak (not sure if that >is the name) or any similar programs with Cindex for Windows with any success. >I would love to hear any and all feedback about as I have to make a decision >about it in the next week or so. >Thank a lot, > >Leslie >Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:57:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows At 03:43 PM 3/12/1999 -0800, Charles R. Anderson wrote: >On the other hand, the Pentium III supposedly has 70 new instructions built >in, some of which deal with Voice Recognition. An article I read recently >said that a freelancer who had spent six months training Dragon Naturally >Speaking to get to a 95% accuracy, obtained the same results in five minutes >on a Pentium III. It seems to me that the professional version of DragonSpeak is considerably easier to "train" and also much more accurate. I'm pretty sure I have a clipping about this somewhere on my overloaded desk, and will post excerpts when I find it. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:27:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hernandez Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows Leslie, The Feb 99 issue of "Home Office Computing" has a review of seven voice recognition programs. Dragon NaturallySpeaking Preferred got the highest rating for professional voice recognition and at $159 was termed a "Best Buy." The review said that installation plus training took about a hour. You read prepared documents (some from Arthur C. Clarke and Dave Barry) to create the voice recognition unique to you (or something like that). Anyway, Dragon Systems has a web site at www.naturalspeech.com and Home Office Computing has one at www.smalloffice.com and might have the review on line (I'm not sure, but you can look.) I have also seen voice recognition programs reviewed in the Wall Street Journal technology column. I recall Dragon Preferred being well reviewed there, also. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com bookend@sprynet.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 Reply-To: leditor@frontiernet.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows One listmember stated: > > An article I read recently said that a freelancer who had spent six months training > > Dragon Naturally Speaking to get to a 95% accuracy, obtained the same results in five > minutes on a Pentium III. > > Sounds hard to believe - but maybe so. > Another asked: > I am wondering if anyone has used DragonSpeak (not sure if > that is the name) or any similar programs with Cindex for Windows with any > success. Dragon NaturallySpeaking takes about one hour for initial training. 98% accuracy is readily attainable for indexing purposes, assuming one is using appropriate equipment. The forthcoming Pentium III speech recognition features are not necessary for effective speech recognition. Indexes can be readily dictated into CINDEX for Windows via Dragon NS version 3.0 of higher although the quicker way of doing this is to create a tab-delineated file in Dragon's own WordPad-like feature and then download that into CINDEX. Manipulation of lines in an existing CINDEX for Windows file is another matter as is the varying capabilities of any manufacturer's speech recognition system in WordPerfect vs MS Word. I will be addressing these issues in detail in a presentation at the ASI conference in Indy. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:52:26 +1100 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: automated indexing In-Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli wrote: > I would be interested in hearing *real* discussion on exactly *how* > this could be done. May be over my head, but let's give it a go. Grammar checking used to be in the 'too hard' basket for a long time as well. Admittedly, the grammar checking we have now is far from perfect, but it does have a role to play. I understand that grammar checkers now use a multilevel system where text is examined at the word level to see if it is appropriate at the same time as the phrase and the sentence levels are being evaluated - maybe there's a document level that compares the sentence or paragraph to the context of the whole document as well. If all the levels match and produce an 'OK' then the sentence is accepted. If they all produce a 'NO GOOD' then the sentence is flagged as a possible error. If some levels say OK and some say NO GOOD then the search is broadened to include surrounding text until a definite conclusion is reached. When I was studying cognitive science the fundamental argument supporting AI went like this: "Human brains are (nothing but) complex mechanical systems." "Human brains can do X (indexing, say)" "Therefore complex mechanical systems can do indexing." Notice that nothing is assumed about _how_ complex, or how long this level of complexity will take to attain in constructed devices. On the other hand, the complexity of computer systems is doubling about every eighteen months, so if you accept that the human brain is just a computer which is N (pick a number) times as complex as the ones we have today, the maximum time taken to achieve any task the human brain can do should be 18 months times the log(2) of N. Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:24:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Catherine Keenan Subject: Re: Indexing glossary items? If it's your decision to index or not the glossary, nah, I'd wouldn't index the terms. They'd take up too much room. I wouldn't index to indicate the presence of a glossary either; I'd leave that job to the contents page. But I would run this decision by the editor first. THey usually decide this sort of thing. catherine indexer/hurdy gurdy player toronto At 02:33 PM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >If a large technical document has an extensive glossary, >should you index the glossary terms? In other words, >would you add an index marker (in FrameMaker) to the >glossary term as it appears in the glossary? > >Thanks, Rowena catherine indexer/hurdy gurdy player toronto ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:57:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: voice programs and cindex for windows I have recently started using Dragon NS Preferred Edition. I have not been able to get the recognition percentage usually cited, even after using the program for several weeks. There are additional steps in training required to get the best results; you also continue to train as you are using the program. I have used it some in Sky Index and found that the recognition is very good when you are entering the same terms repetitively as is sometimes the case in indexing. The reason for this is that the program continues to "learn" as you use it and recognition becomes better for phrases or words that are used repeatedly. I don't know if the Professional Edition has better recognition capability. It does have the option of getting specialized vocabularies, i.e., medical, legal. It also costs a *lot* more money. Some potential hang-ups: You need a high end sound card, and even then some computer systems with preinstalled cards don't function as expected. I have a Dell which has this problem. (Sigh) The microphone is important. Some give better recognition and speed. You need lots of computer power! The programs are memory hogs - even worse for the Pro Edition I hear. For more info on these issues and tips on getting best performance check these web sites: http://idt.net/~edrose19/page7.html http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/default.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing glossary items? Catherine Keenan wrote: > > ... I wouldn't index the terms. They'd take up too much room. > I wouldn't index to indicate the presence of a glossary either; > I'd leave that job to the contents page. In hypertext, where the extra space usually isn't a concern, I'd be more likely to index both the terms and the presence of a glossary. It helps the Index serve as the central point for information access. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:44:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Indexing glossary items? In-Reply-To: <199903131623.LAA08244@carriage.chesco.com> As has been noted, most often the editor will provide instructions for me. My experience is different than what is described in this note, however. In most instances the glossary brings together terms described elsewhere in the text. What you usually end up adding is one more page reference, not an entire new line. Secondly, my goal in creating an index is to minimize the number of places a reader needs to check to determine if the needed information is available. If the glossary is not indexed, I always encourage the use of a headnote indicating that a section of the text is not included (and therefore should be checked directly.) As a sideline, just because the editor's instructions provide a guideline, it doesn't mean it was set in stone. I recently completed a computer text. My initial instructions indicated I should not index the command reference which was approx 200 p. of a 900 p. text. I did receive this section & discovered that commands were grouped in categories, not in a quickly accessible order. I asked about the decision process & learned that the decision had been based on previous books in the series which had reference sections in alphabetic order. The editor was glad I asked & I received the go-ahead to index the entire set of pages. Nancy Guenther nanguent@chesco.com At 11:24 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >If it's your decision to index or not the glossary, nah, I'd wouldn't index >the terms. They'd take up too much room. I wouldn't index to indicate the >presence of a glossary either; I'd leave that job to the contents page. > >But I would run this decision by the editor first. THey usually decide this >sort of thing. > >catherine >indexer/hurdy gurdy player >toronto > >At 02:33 PM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote: >>Hi folks, >> >>If a large technical document has an extensive glossary, >>should you index the glossary terms? In other words, >>would you add an index marker (in FrameMaker) to the >>glossary term as it appears in the glossary? >> >>Thanks, Rowena >catherine >indexer/hurdy gurdy player >toronto ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:09:31 -0800 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Plugging Your Own Index I wonder how many of you have books you recently indexed for sale on Amazon.com? Have you thought of writing a review of the book online and, just incidentally, plugging your index? I just indexed my first book for my son, Eric Shelman. Although he and his coauthor, Dr. Stephen Lavoritz, spent many years researching the factual material for their book detailing the first child rescued from child abuse in the United States, I had to convince Eric to let me index his book. It is now on Amazon, and since readers of the book are invited to write a review, I did so and plugged the index with a line as well. I just thought I would mention it in case any of you would like to do the same for your books. The author might appreciate it as well, and since we indexers are anonymous, who knows we are plugging our own indexing? Since it is my first published index, I have no idea whether my index is good or not, but had I not done it, the factual information in "Out of the Darkness: The Story of Mary Ellen Wilson" would not be so easily accessible. Jean Middleton Inland Empire Indexing Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:41:45 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: indexing glossaries Hi all, Nancy's message is a perfect example of how an indexer should approach each job. By examining the project and asking relevant questions to produce the most useful index possible. I have worked on projects which both included and excluded glossary items in the index (as per requests by editors). I have also done a few glossary/index combinations (which are unusual and have been previously discussed on this list). There are no absolutes about indexing glossary items, just what is typical for a particular press and what is appropriate given the nature of the text. Technical, textbook, and scholarly indexes all have different approaches to indexing glossary items just as publishing houses will have their own guidelines to be followed. In short, while my experience has been that usually glossaries are not included in the index, each indexing project is unique and should be approached as such. I find that editors are very pleased to have indexers who try to produce an index which will best serve the user while adhering to the needs of the editor (space constraints, time limitations, budget issues etc.). It's the way to best create good indexes and relationships with editors, which of course leads to repeat work :). Best, Sylvia Coates Nancy A. Guenther wrote: > As has been noted, most often the editor will provide instructions for me. > > My experience is different than what is described in this note, however. > In most instances the glossary brings together terms described elsewhere in > the text. What you usually end up adding is one more page reference, not an > entire new line. > > Secondly, my goal in creating an index is to minimize the number of places > a reader needs to check to determine if the needed information is > available. If the glossary is not indexed, I always encourage the use of a > headnote indicating that a section of the text is not included (and > therefore should be checked directly.) > > As a sideline, just because the editor's instructions provide a guideline, > it doesn't mean it was set in stone. I recently completed a computer text. > My initial instructions indicated I should not index the command reference > which was approx 200 p. of a 900 p. text. I did receive this section & > discovered that commands were grouped in categories, not in a quickly > accessible order. I asked about the decision process & learned that the > decision had been based on previous books in the series which had reference > sections in alphabetic order. The editor was glad I asked & I received the > go-ahead to index the entire set of pages. > > Nancy Guenther > nanguent@chesco.com > > At 11:24 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > >If it's your decision to index or not the glossary, nah, I'd wouldn't index > >the terms. They'd take up too much room. I wouldn't index to indicate the > >presence of a glossary either; I'd leave that job to the contents page. > > > >But I would run this decision by the editor first. THey usually decide this > >sort of thing. > > > >catherine > >indexer/hurdy gurdy player > >toronto > > > >At 02:33 PM 3/12/99 -0800, you wrote: > >>Hi folks, > >> > >>If a large technical document has an extensive glossary, > >>should you index the glossary terms? In other words, > >>would you add an index marker (in FrameMaker) to the > >>glossary term as it appears in the glossary? > >> > >>Thanks, Rowena > >catherine > >indexer/hurdy gurdy player > >toronto ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:26:55 +1100 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: automated indexing (database indexing) In-Reply-To: I think automated indexing has the potential to work where the amount of information in the knowledge base and the amount of information in the item to be indexed are large enough to allow statistical methods a good chance to work. This is much more likely with database indexing than with book indexing. With book indexing I would say chapters and sections are relatively easy to index because they have been structured to contain material on a certain topic, and have a neatly worded heading to tell you what is there. It is when you get to paragraph level that you have to glean clues from all of the words. It would be interesting to study indexing of articles in bibliographic databases to see what correlation there is between words in the article titles and words in the indexing. I suspect (from the one database that I have indexed) that there would be an extremely high correlation (especially, perhaps, in the 'hard' subjects such as the sciences). If indexers get a lot of their inspiration from titles (then abstracts and section headings) I think computers could do much the same. For subjects that are not explicitly stated, the quality of the indexing will depend on the quality of the knowledge base. In the restaurant example given below, a knowledge base entry for the topic restaurant might give ten points for the word restaurant, and one point each for the words steak, waitress, maitre d', bookings, etc. There would have to be a lot of words that can be relevant to topics other than restaurants as well as to the topic restaurant present for the indexing term restaurant to be allocated. I'm not saying that computers could do it now, but I see no reason why they couldn't in the not so distant future. I agree with Craig that maybe one day some of us will have challenging jobs working on this sort of knowledge base. It is also important to remember that we should not compare the output of a computer with the job of a top professional indexer, but with the indexing that is now being done (ie with the same financial and time constraints that apply). Some database indexing is APPALLING. Maybe computers now can do as well as the worst that humans currently provide. NFAIS has published a book on Computer Support to Indexing (by Gail Hodge and Jessica Milstead) which gives information about the use of computers in database indexing at the present. It is interesting because it tells what is really happening under commercial constraints, and gives some visions of the future. There is a review of this book in the Jan/Feb AusSI Newsletter, available on the AusSI website (http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl). (Unfortunately the AusSI website index is not up-to-date enough to include the online newsletter so you will have to go through the hierarchy.)(And I will send myself a TO DO notice to update it asap). Glenda > On 3/10/1999 12:42 PM Kevin A. Broccoli wrote (in part): > > >I had the chance, not too long ago, to index material on artificial > >intelligence. There were so many "but how's?" and so little expla- > >nations of concrete, feasible methods of producing *real* A.I. that > >the entire discussion seemed absolutely ridiculous. > > I had a similar indexing project (speech recognition) and agree that > we're a long way from computerized indexing. > > For instance, if I state: "I told the waitress to take the steak back > because it was too rare," most people would assume a restaurant setting. > Not from the individual words, though. I could have said, "My cousin is > a waitress," or "I love rare steak," neither of which has anything to do > with a restaurant setting. > > Not to say we should be complacent. Perhaps some of us will cap our > careers as consultants to AI firms who wish to build databases of > indexing knowledge. > > Craig Brown > > ===================================================== > The Last Word lastword@i1.net > Indexing http://www.i1.net/~lastword > (314)352-9094 fax: (314)481-9254 > ===================================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 10:33:30 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andy Schoenhofer Subject: hurdy gurdy; indexing in Toronto In-Reply-To: <199903131623.LAA19407@granite.sentex.net> Recently, Catherine Keenan wrote as follows: >indexer/hurdy gurdy player >toronto Interesting. Did you see the Mediaeval Baebes at Convocation Hall before Xmas? Some hurdy gurdy playing there. I went because I'm interested in choirs and recorders, having just taken up the recorder a few months ago. Do you perform anywhere around town? Also: I was wondering what the indexing market is like here in Toronto. Is there room for another indexer? Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 11:46:01 LCL Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andy Schoenhofer Subject: Sorry! Jeez! I apologise in the utmost for sending that previous message about hurdy gurdys to the list! Wasn't concentrating. Never happen again. Sorry. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:50:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: USDA course In-Reply-To: <199903081645.IAA06795@neti.saber.net> You wrote: >By the by, what do you think of the USDA course? > >Brenda I am finding the course a good introduction to indexing. The comments from my instructor are extremely helpful. And, I am suplementing the course with as many workshops as possible, both presented by my local chapter and at the National conventions. I think it's a good solid start for someone (me) who has not been in the publishing business at all. Naomi *****************************************************************************Ms. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/indexstudents <--Indexing students e-mail-list. http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/FAQ <--Index-L e-mail list FAQS. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 18:46:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Catherine Keenan Subject: hurdy gurdy; indexing in Toronto >Also: I was wondering what the indexing market is like here in Toronto. Is >there room for another indexer? at the risk of being flip: the indexer market in toronto is slightly larger than the hurdy gurdy market ps let me know if you want to hear (off list) my medieval babes story catherine indexer/hurdy gurdy player toronto ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:27:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Women in Scholarly Publishing To get more information about WISP, call or email Jean Sue Johnson Libkind. Her phone number is (607) 272-5408, and her email address is jeansu@aol.com. I encourage all women who index scholarly books to join this organization. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:02:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Margie Towery Subject: Re: Women in Scholarly Publishing All: Do Mi missed an e in Jean Sue's email: jeansue@aol.com. I've contacted her and will also have WiSP brochures available at the ASI meeting in June. Margie Towery ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:21:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Bryant Subject: Re: Women in Scholarly Publishing I will email Jean Sue, but could someone familiar with Women in Scholarly Publishing tell us more about it? Others on the list may want to know, too. CB At 09:02 PM 03/14/1999 EST, you wrote: >All: > >Do Mi missed an e in Jean Sue's email: jeansue@aol.com. > >I've contacted her and will also have WiSP brochures available at the ASI >meeting in June. > >Margie Towery > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:13:28 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Women in Scholarly Publishing << Do Mi missed an e in Jean Sue's email: jeansue@aol.com. I've contacted her and will also have WiSP brochures available at the ASI meeting in June. >> Oops! Thanks, Margie. Good idea to bring brochures. Do Mi