Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9911B" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: locator formatting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kathy, Since you are new to indexing, especially indexing grade-school books, I would recommend asking the editor what the house style is. The best solution is for the editor to send you a sample index done for a similar book that he or she liked. You can't go wrong following the client's instructions. Good luck with it. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:11:17 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: SIdeline MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Christine Headley The Society of Indexers now has its own members' e-mail List. Any member wishing to join should e-mail me - It helps verification enormously if new and/or overseas members can tell me so! I am also writing list guidelines and would like to include details of the Newbie List that is sometimes mentioned on Index-L. Could someone please let me have the contact details? Many thanks Christine Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:20:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Latin Redux One thing is for sure: If this quote appears in a book about baseball as an intro to a chapter, I sincerely hope that the author is planning on providing an English translation. If so many of us with various levels of proficiency in Latin can't figure out exactly what it's supposed to be saying, chances are the average reader of a baseball book won't be able to, either. Sounds like the author was trying to be cute with a quasi-Latin translation, but it obviously isn't working very well. Maybe this should be pointed out to the editors. Just a thought... > -----Original Message----- > From: Christin Keck [SMTP:shecrab@concentric.net] > Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 2:14 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females > > Ms. Topping is correct, the quote refers to opera, not > baseball. In fact, the ORIGINAL quote is "The OPERA ain't > over till the fat lady sings," and the exact origin of it is > actually known--it also refers to BASKETBALL. > > This is from The Straight Dope, by Cecil Adams: > (www.straightdope.com) > > > ::QUOTE:: > It was first used around 1976 in a column in the San Antonio > News-Express by sportswriter Dan Cook. Cook does not recall > the precise date or what the column was about. > > Cook, who is also a sportscaster for KENS-TV in San Antonio, > repeated the line during a broadcast in April 1978. He was > trying to buck up local basketball fans who were dejected > because the San Antonio Spurs were down three games to one > in > the playoffs against the Washington Bullets. > > Bullets coach Dick Motta heard the broadcast and used the > expression himself to caution fans against overconfidence > after his > team finished off the Spurs and took on Philadelphia. > > The phrase became the team's rallying cry as they went on to > win the championship. From there it entered the common pot > of > the language. > > Most newsies aspire to nothing grander than a Pulitzer > prize. But Cook can tell his grandkids he's in The Concise > Oxford > Dictionary of Proverbs. > > --CECIL ADAMS > ::END QUOTE:: > -- > > CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" > > VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: > http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:55:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: It's that time of year again... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > It's time to talk about year-end gifts again. I remember there was a wide > range of opinions last time (esp. concerning holidays, religious overtones, > etc.). Point being, I want to express to my new-found clients (after my > first full year in the biz) that I appreciate their business. > > Has anyone tried gift certificates to online merchants as a gift? Amazon.com > comes to mind. Or is that too...I don't know...I mean, there is an exact > dollar value to the gift, so perhaps it defines their worth to me too > precisely? Anyway, thoughts and opinions welcome./Dan Hi Dan, Last year when this came up, I mentioned that I send out calendars for the upcoming year. The calandars have *beautiful* color photographs of my little corner of the world. I think that the calendars are appropriate for clients of either sex, race, creed, religion, etc. The price is reasonable, it reminds them of me throughout the year, and I've had many compliments from the recipients. I include a card and personal note of thanks for their business, etc. In the note I can say "Merry Christmas" "Happy Holidays" or whatever is appropriate for the recipient. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG www.communication-link.com <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:46:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: German inversions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm doing a book on German-Japanese collaboration in WWII. Since the Germans are clearly Germans and not German-Americans or other permutations, it seems best to not sort on the 'vons' and 'vans.' That worked great until I came upon a guy with no first name. Commander von Krosigk (in the German naval attaché's office in Japan) Schwerin von Krosigk (German foreign minister) This won't work: Krosigk, (Commander) von Krosigk, Schwerin von (German foreign minister) or will it? Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:46:32 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Latin Redux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/8/1999 8:20 AM Wright, Sharon F. wrote (in part): >One thing is for sure: If this quote appears in a book about baseball as an >intro to a chapter, I sincerely hope that the author is planning on >providing an English translation. If so many of us with various levels of >proficiency in Latin can't figure out exactly what it's supposed to be >saying, chances are the average reader of a baseball book won't be able to, >either. Sounds like the author was trying to be cute with a quasi-Latin >translation, but it obviously isn't working very well. Maybe this should be >pointed out to the editors. Your thoughts parallel my initial impression. However, I don't think the book's audience is the "average reader" of a baseball book. It's aimed more at litterateurs who also happen to be interested in baseball, George Will, for instance, or Bart Giamatti were he still alive. So, in this case, I only pointed out a few minor spelling discrepancies to the editor and trusted the author's judgment. Craig Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 11:00:36 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Contracts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been indexing full-time for a year without asking clients to sign a contract. For the most part there have been no problems, but I think it would be best if I develop a simple contract outlining some of the basics such as payment terms, etc. My question is: Do you have the client sign one contract for all assignments or a contract for each assignment? One of my clients has me sign a contract for each assignment. Thank you, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:07:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: German inversions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Deborah, I think I would do this: Krosigk, von (Commander) Krosigk, Schwerin von I assume that you are not putting job title after all the names in the index. I wouldn't add it to any except that one with no first name. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Deborah E. Patton To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 10:46 AM Subject: German inversions > I'm doing a book on German-Japanese collaboration in WWII. Since the > Germans are clearly Germans and not German-Americans or other permutations, > it seems best to not sort on the 'vons' and 'vans.' That worked great until > I came upon a guy with no first name. > > Commander von Krosigk (in the German naval attaché's office in Japan) > Schwerin von Krosigk (German foreign minister) > > This won't work: > Krosigk, (Commander) von > Krosigk, Schwerin von (German foreign minister) > > or will it? > > Deborah > > ============================== > Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer > Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: marketing tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This tip on my daily "Tip World" mail seemed especially pertinent. The Internet is loaded with low-cost marketing and promotion ideas. A great Web site to start with is the Yahoo! Small Business center. This site overflows with free tips and advice for building your clientele. You'll find a treasure trove at this URL: http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/ Depending on the type of business you're running, you may also find worthwhile information at these sites: Retailer News (http://retailernews.com/) provides sales advice and inspirational anecdotes to retail business owners, managers, and salespeople. The Marketing Resource Center (http://www.marketingsource.com) gives advice on marketing your business on the Internet as well as through traditional channels. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:19:47 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: German inversions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I did a quick Web search on Krosigk, a somewhat unusual name. The foreign minister's full name is Count Lutz Schwerin von Krosigk and he appears to have started out as Finance Minister, only becoming Foreign Minister after Hitler's suicide. http://www.toyama-u.ac.jp/hmt/scs/dj50/wwII2.html His name sometimes appears as Schwerin-Krosigk. I haven't found anything on the other von Krosigk, no doubt a some kind of relative. Nick Koenig >I'm doing a book on German-Japanese collaboration in WWII. Since the >Germans are clearly Germans and not German-Americans or other permutations, >it seems best to not sort on the 'vons' and 'vans.' That worked great until >I came upon a guy with no first name. > >Commander von Krosigk (in the German naval attaché's office in Japan) >Schwerin von Krosigk (German foreign minister) > >This won't work: >Krosigk, (Commander) von >Krosigk, Schwerin von (German foreign minister) > >or will it? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:27:52 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Collective Wisdom (and experience), I just received a call from a MAJOR (big) publishing company that pays freelance indexers $15/hour. I negotiated a per page rate and am waiting to hear back for final approval. Several months ago another big publisher offered $18/hour. I can't help but wonder how they come up with these rates. Do experienced indexers routinely work at these rates? Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? Comments: To: "Richard T. Evans" In-Reply-To: <199911081834.NAA01616@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I just received a call from a MAJOR (big) publishing company that pays > freelance indexers $15/hour. I negotiated a per page rate and am > waiting to > hear back for final approval. Several months ago another big publisher > offered $18/hour. I can't help but wonder how they come up with > these rates. > Do experienced indexers routinely work at these rates? No, not by half. My accountant has a saying: "If you are self-employed, Uncle Sam is your partner," By that he means that you can figure on giving the IRS about 50% of your income. Right off the bat, you start paying the 7.5% FICA that an employer would otherwise contribute. Thus you're paying *all* of your FICA of about 15% plus about 25% in income tax. Hence the 50%. Now consider having to pay for your own office, your own equipment, your own health insurance, etc. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that $15 an hour is likely to net out to be lower than minimum wage. A more realistic hourly wage is $40. If you are working for a page rate, try to ensure that you can do enough pages per hour to provide a reasoanbel equivalent hourly wage. If you are getting $3 per page and only doing 5 pages per hour, you're right back where you started. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:47:35 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/1999 11:38:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, infodex@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << No, not by half. My accountant has a saying: "If you are self-employed, Uncle Sam is your partner," By that he means that you can figure on giving the IRS about 50% of your income. Right off the bat, you start paying the 7.5% FICA that an employer would otherwise contribute. Thus you're paying *all* of your FICA of about 15% plus about 25% in income tax. Hence the 50%. Now consider having to pay for your own office, your own equipment, your own health insurance, etc. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that $15 an hour is likely to net out to be lower than minimum wage. A more realistic hourly wage is $40. If you are working for a page rate, try to ensure that you can do enough pages per hour to provide a reasoanbel equivalent hourly wage. If you are getting $3 per page and only doing 5 pages per hour, you're right back where you started. Dick >> Dick, I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't understand is that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they do it? Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 12:34:58 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Bill-expressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few week ago Bob Richardson mused about the possible coining of the word "Billygate" to refer to Microsoft's current, and now worsing, legal problems. Indeed, since it appears that email did much of the damage to Microsoft's case, I can't help but wonder why these incriminating messages weren't just deleted. But then Nixon didn't smoke those tapes either. I purge my email twice a day. Now I just heard on the radio that if Microsoft is broken up the resulting entities, by analogy with those created by the breakup of Ma Bell, might be known as Baby Bills. Where will this all end? Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:37:58 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/8/99 1:57:38 PM Central Standard Time, Dalindex@AOL.COM writes: << So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they do it? >> It's silly for publishers to think that they can control the indexer's hourly rate. We don't have timeclocks. When editors start referring to an hourly rate, I usually ask for a sample of the book and send them a project price. Hours disappear from the horizon when they can have an upper limit for the project. Hourly rates are usually a sign that the editor is concerned about the total budget. Its up to me to make sure my quote is realistic. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:38:25 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debbie, Nobody I know works for that kind of rate. No indexers I know work for an hourly rate, either. In all my years of doing back-of-the-book indexing, I've only met up with one client who insists on paying me by the hour. Their pay rate has been $23-25 per hour for years now. It's too low, but their material is so familiar to me, and I've been with them a long time. I should even raise that! But $15 is ridiculous. Heed Dick's figures. They're right on target. Have you discussed other ways of figuring payment with this client. It is to their benefit, actually, to pay you by the indexable page. That way they know ahead of time how much it will cost, and it doesn't matter whether you work slowly or quickly. Working by the hour leaves you open to complaints later on about it costing too much, and they didn't know it would come out to so much, etc. Be careful. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:02:41 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Debbie, > So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they > do it? I don't have a definitive answer, but a few ideas. I think there *may* be some part-time indexers who have been indexing for years and have never raised their rates. I say this only because I talked to a woman about 3 years who was still charging $1/page for scholarly books - because she did it for professors at the university where she worked as a librarian, and didn't know what other indexers charged. My other pet theory is that the big publishers in NYC are used to paying measly salaries to their entry-level editors, and there are lots of starving actors, singers and dancers in NY who need part-time work and are willing to work for low rates. I started out working for a couple of those publishers in 1995 at $18/hour but after about a year, raised my rate to $25/hour. The editors at one company continued to call me because, they told me, they considered me fast at indexing, and they would pay me the same as slower indexers who charged less. I was never hired again by the other companies. Hmm, I guess it's time to raise that $25 rate again, but only by a couple dollars, as I like working for that publisher. (I do make more than $25 when I charge per-page, unless I've made a mistake and underestimated the time a book would take.) FWIW, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:12:04 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: Bill-expressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" <> Do you mean why didn't MS delete the incriminating messages? I guess I'm a little lost on how Microsoft problems began (aside from already having decided that Bill Gates is the Antichrist.) (For sensitive readers, that's a JOKE.) A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:11:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? In-Reply-To: <0.1c7e9114.255882d7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't understand is >that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each >year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they >do it? > >Debbie Hi All: I've been wondering the same thing, Debbie. I was recently offered a job doing a legal index. The job paid $15.00 an hour, and they wanted buth the subject and the table index. They also wanted a two-week turnaround for 800 pages. Luckily, I had to say no because of pending deadlines of my own. And they probably think that $15.00 an hour is a good rate for that much work! Willa (recuperating from two intensive but enjoyable days at the NOMAD Folk Festival in Conn...and who enjoyed African drumming, folk music, gospel music, shape note singing, playing my tin whistle and contra dancing, all under one roof...what a great way to unwind from a week of deadlines....). Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:18:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:47 PM 11/8/1999 EST, Dalindex@AOL.COM wrote: >I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't understand is >that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each >year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they >do it? They are able to get by with it because they are providing a second income in the family (their spouse or partner is earning a more substantial wage AND probably covering the indexer's withholding liability via their own withholding). Or they aren't doing this work full-time, but have a full- or part-time job to help out with the money. Or they are just plain struggling! Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:26:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judi Alamia Subject: Re: Bill-expressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" IMHO, the MS problems began when Bill Gates' dad said to an attorney on his staff, "my kid is moving his little computer business up here. Can you give him a hand?" That attorney still works for young Bill. Hearsay-type dialog based on a report in the New Yorker about the MS tale of woe with the guv'mint. Judi Jalamia@thefund.com -----Original Message----- From: Karen Field [mailto:kfield@STELLCOM.COM] Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 4:12 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Bill-expressions <> Do you mean why didn't MS delete the incriminating messages? I guess I'm a little lost on how Microsoft problems began (aside from already having decided that Bill Gates is the Antichrist.) (For sensitive readers, that's a JOKE.) A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF2A3B.5E314EB0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2A3B.5E314EB0 Content-Type: text/plain All the remarks about how this occurs are true. Moreover, when people are engaged in a cottage industry like indexing, they truly work alone, and often do not know that indexing is a "profession" and that there is a professional society like ASI giving information and doing market surveys. Like the ladies who did tailor piece-work till late in the night at home (and still do, though perhaps in a third-world country or county), the commissions from the BIG BOYS trickle down to the desperate. That this is a literate, well-educated population of the desperate is all to their benefit. Why do you think they dismissed their copyediting departments in favor of freelancers? As the editor-in-chief of a large medical publisher in the mid-Atlantic states once told me, "copy editors are a dime a dozen." "Will you have fries with that?" Hang on to those clients who give you $45 an hour. I never got that in 28 years, and I could never have been allowed to commission a work at that rate in 14 years as a managing editor. > ---------- > From: Dalindex@AOL.COM > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Monday, November 8, 1999 11:27 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Hourly Rate? > > Dear Collective Wisdom (and experience), > > I just received a call from a MAJOR (big) publishing company that pays > freelance indexers $15/hour. I negotiated a per page rate and am waiting > to > hear back for final approval. Several months ago another big publisher > offered $18/hour. I can't help but wonder how they come up with these > rates. > Do experienced indexers routinely work at these rates? > > Debbie > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2A3B.5E314EB0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Hourly Rate?

All the remarks = about how this occurs are true.  Moreover, when people are engaged = in a cottage industry like indexing, they truly work alone, and often = do not know that indexing is a "profession" and that there is = a professional society like ASI giving information and doing market = surveys.  Like the ladies who did tailor piece-work till late in = the night at home (and still do, though perhaps in a third-world = country or county), the commissions from the BIG BOYS trickle down to = the desperate.  That this is a literate, well-educated population = of the desperate is all to their benefit.  Why do you think they = dismissed their copyediting departments in favor of freelancers?  = As the editor-in-chief of a large medical publisher in the mid-Atlantic = states once told me, "copy editors are a dime a = dozen."

"Will you have = fries with that?"

Hang on to those = clients who give you $45 an hour.  I never got that in 28 years, = and I could never have been allowed to commission a work at that rate = in 14 years as a managing editor. 

----------
From:   Dalindex@AOL.COM
Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
Sent:   Monday, November 8, 1999 11:27 AM
To:     = INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: =        Hourly Rate?

Dear Collective Wisdom (and = experience),

I just received a call from a = MAJOR (big) publishing company that pays
freelance indexers $15/hour. I = negotiated a per page rate and am waiting to
hear back for final approval. = Several months ago another big publisher
offered $18/hour. I can't help = but wonder how they come up with these rates.
Do experienced indexers = routinely work at these rates?

Debbie

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2A3B.5E314EB0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:59:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0234_01BF2A1B.64C55200" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0234_01BF2A1B.64C55200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Hourly Rate?Ah, but you must have commissioned it unknowingly, if = you paid at least a fair page rate. Your first paragraph is worth noting. My take on this is that there are, = perhaps, hundreds of people who write indexes out there who do not know = about this list.They do not know about ASI. They may not even refer to = themselves as "indexers." They may feel they are office staff, editorial = assistants, whatever...they simply do indexes--some occasionally, some = frequently, some all the time. They charge what they've always charged, = for many different reasons.=20 It can be, truly, a cottage industry. I can't imagine how wide the range = of pay must be between some in this field. Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents Discussion List ---> = http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dorothy Dirienzi=20 To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:48 PM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? All the remarks about how this occurs are true. Moreover, when people = are engaged in a cottage industry like indexing, they truly work alone, = and often do not know that indexing is a "profession" and that there is = a professional society like ASI giving information and doing market = surveys. Like the ladies who did tailor piece-work till late in the = night at home (and still do, though perhaps in a third-world country or = county), the commissions from the BIG BOYS trickle down to the = desperate. That this is a literate, well-educated population of the = desperate is all to their benefit. Why do you think they dismissed = their copyediting departments in favor of freelancers? As the = editor-in-chief of a large medical publisher in the mid-Atlantic states = once told me, "copy editors are a dime a dozen." "Will you have fries with that?"=20 Hang on to those clients who give you $45 an hour. I never got that = in 28 years, and I could never have been allowed to commission a work at = that rate in 14 years as a managing editor. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0234_01BF2A1B.64C55200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Hourly Rate?
Ah, but you must have commissioned it = unknowingly, if you=20 paid at least a fair page rate.
 
Your first paragraph is worth noting. My take on = this is=20 that there are, perhaps, hundreds of people who write indexes out there = who do=20 not know about this list.They do not know about ASI. They may not even = refer to=20 themselves as "indexers." They may feel they are office staff, editorial = assistants, whatever...they simply do indexes--some occasionally, some=20 frequently, some all the time. They charge what they've always charged, = for many=20 different reasons.
 
It can be, truly, a cottage industry. I can't = imagine how=20 wide the range of pay must be between some in this field.
 
Dan
 
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ = ~
Daniel=20 A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com
Word = For Word=20 Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com<= /A>
Indexstudents=20 Discussion List ---> http://www.onelis= t.com/community/indexstudents
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dorothy Dirienzi
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 = 5:48=20 PM
Subject: Re: Hourly Rate?

All the remarks = about how this=20 occurs are true.  Moreover, when people are engaged in a cottage = industry=20 like indexing, they truly work alone, and often do not know that = indexing is a=20 "profession" and that there is a professional society like ASI giving=20 information and doing market surveys.  Like the ladies who did = tailor=20 piece-work till late in the night at home (and still do, though = perhaps in a=20 third-world country or county), the commissions from the BIG BOYS = trickle down=20 to the desperate.  That this is a literate, well-educated = population of=20 the desperate is all to their benefit.  Why do you think they = dismissed=20 their copyediting departments in favor of freelancers?  As the=20 editor-in-chief of a large medical publisher in the mid-Atlantic = states once=20 told me, "copy editors are a dime a dozen."

"Will you have fries = with=20 that?"

Hang on to those = clients who=20 give you $45 an hour.  I never got that in 28 years, and I could = never=20 have been allowed to commission a work at that rate in 14 years as a = managing=20 editor. 

------=_NextPart_000_0234_01BF2A1B.64C55200-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:54:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Baker Subject: Re: Bill-expressions In-Reply-To: <210369A967E8D2119B390050041CD4BD34C90A@pandora.stellcom.co m> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings, My name is Andrea Baker. I have been lurking on the list for a couple of months. Though I am currently working as an Indexer/Thesaurus builder I was a Records Manager in a previous incarnation. and perhaps I can offer something on this thread. When one deletes an e-mail, the address is disconnected but the content remains on the drive until it is written over by subsequent files. Since it is often not realized that these e-mails are business records and can be requisitioned by the courts, many organizations do not manage them at all. This situation is complicated further in a LAN environment where the files are often backed up on to tape drives nightly and stored indefinitely. It is also possible for experts in the field of file recovery to reconstruct files that have been written over several times. I have heard that files that have been written over 24 times can be recovered. It is ironic that Microsoft was one of the first companies caught in this trap. One of the things Records Managers often tell their clients is: Never send anything on e-mail that you don't want to see either in the paper or in court. Thanks for your indulgence. Andrea At 01:12 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote: ><why these incriminating messages weren't just >deleted.>> > >Do you mean why didn't MS delete the incriminating messages? I guess I'm a >little lost on how Microsoft problems began (aside from already having >decided that Bill Gates is the Antichrist.) > >(For sensitive readers, that's a JOKE.) > > >A ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:50:22 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: Bill-expressions In-Reply-To: <000a01bf2a28$bab13fa0$ec330d3f@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:34 PM -0800 11/8/99, nkoenig wrote: >... since it appears that email did much of the >damage to Microsoft's case, I can't help but wonder >why these incriminating messages weren't just >deleted. But then Nixon didn't smoke those tapes >either. I purge my email twice a day. >... > >Nick Koenig Yes, but do you also purge the backups that may be made by servers along the way, and the copies on the recipient's weekly tape backups, and what about the recipient's ISP, etc. etc. There is no guaranteed way of destroying your own email once it has been sent across an intranet or the internet. Except for this startup I just heard about where the email has an embedded encryption key which self-destructs after a time period selected by the sender of the message... no matter where it is stored in the meantime, or how many copies exist, none of them can be read any more. They are getting a LOT of inquiries from corporate executives. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:11:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsie, When you hit "send," you must have known that you'd get at least one strong rebuttal of your premise :-). I'm in the position you describe. My wife makes substantially more than I did this year (my first indexing). She didn't always make more when I worked out of the house, but we can survive if I don't work (amazing how much you spend on child care--and with one in the oven, one of our incomes might go towards it entirely). Anyway, I have a fairly keen business sense and would never take a rate like that. I think that I'm in a stronger position to refuse low-paying work than an indexer who supports herself solely. Imagine the pressure (you and many others probably know first-hand) to take this type of work to fill a void in the schedule. I'm sure it can overwhelm you at times. I would consider it a waste of my time not to be making at least $25/hr. on each project, and I have been making closer to $40 most of the time. Therein lies the flaw in your reasoning. Of course, your analysis will work, no doubt, in some cases. I'd opt for your last sentance--they're just struggling (and may not even know it, if they've been doing it for long). Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents Discussion List ---> http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ----- Original Message ----- From: Sonsie Conroy To: Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? > At 02:47 PM 11/8/1999 EST, Dalindex@AOL.COM wrote: > > >I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't understand is > >that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each > >year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do they > >do it? > > They are able to get by with it because they are providing a second income > in the family (their spouse or partner is earning a more substantial wage > AND probably covering the indexer's withholding liability via their own > withholding). Or they aren't doing this work full-time, but have a full- or > part-time job to help out with the money. Or they are just plain struggling! > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:50:17 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Bill-expressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, indeed. I would also add anything that you might not want to hang around for many years. I am still able to retrieve email I sent to a discussion list about four years ago. Now, given that Microsoft had already been involved in a serious suit by Apple in the late 80s, why couldn't it have hired a Records Manager, or even a lawyer, who could have given it this advice? My guess is that Bill would have had to decrease the number of bathrooms in his new house. Why would one intentionally archive email anyway? Could lack of trust be a factor? Certainly not anti-trust. Nick Koenig > >One of the things Records Managers often tell their clients is: Never send >anything on e-mail that you don't want to see either in the paper or in court. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:46:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? In-Reply-To: <024101bf2a46$e9e15800$1442b6d1@iwillp3450> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: >Anyway, I have a fairly keen business sense and would never take a rate like >that. I think that I'm in a stronger position to refuse low-paying work than >an indexer who supports herself solely. Imagine the pressure (you and many >others probably know first-hand) to take this type of work to fill a void in >the schedule. I'm sure it can overwhelm you at times. People who are starting out in the field are also forced to accept the lower rates until they have built up a client base. If one is just starting out and wants to get experience, it is frequently necessary to accept the lower paying jobs just to get started and to get references. When one has built up references and a client base, it becomes easier to reject the lower-paying jobs. It also takes experience for people to realize when they've reached the point where they can say no to the lower paying jobs. Willa (who is now playing at local contra dances as a volunteer musician, but who hopes to be good enough some day to actually get paid for it..) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: legal indexers needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I am not a legal indexer, I will pass this opportunity on to list members. Please respond directly to Michael Huppe. Contact him for additional information. Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing >>Michael Huppe MCLE Boston, MA We are a nonprofit legal publisher in Boston who uses freelance indexers for all our publications. Due to a very aggressive publications schedule, we are in need of freelance indexers for one immediate and several upcoming projects. If you are interested, or know anyone who might be, please contact Michael Huppe at mhuppe@mcle.org. Thanks for any consideration/information you can provide. Michael Huppe MCLE >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:36:13 PST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Sonsie, I respectfully disagree with your statement. My indexing income *is* supplemental for my family. I index *full time*. My husband is a VP in an engineering company and his income is in six figures. I will *never* work for any publisher who pays $15.00/18.00 per hour unless I am starving to death.I have *too much* respect for myself and for my profession. As a matter of fact, one big publisher from NY quoted me $15.00 hourly rate just about few weeks back. She told me to choose between $15.00 hourly rate ...or....$1.50 page rate. Needless to say, I did not choose any rate. I asked her if she has lots of indexers in her pool at that rate. She said,...."I certainly do not have shortage and my file is overflowing with indexers". These were her exact words. Only God knows who are those indexers who work at that kind of rate. Just my thoughts on this issue. MANJIT SAHAI Potomac Falls, VA >From: Sonsie Conroy >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? >Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:18:23 -0800 > >At 02:47 PM 11/8/1999 EST, Dalindex@AOL.COM wrote: > > >I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't >understand is > >that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each > >year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do >they > >do it? > >They are able to get by with it because they are providing a second income >in the family (their spouse or partner is earning a more substantial wage >AND probably covering the indexer's withholding liability via their own >withholding). Or they aren't doing this work full-time, but have a full- or >part-time job to help out with the money. Or they are just plain >struggling! > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:46:29 -0600 Reply-To: Julie Markle Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Markle Subject: Re: marketing tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit CK, Thanks for sharing this info. I greatly appreciate it! Julie Markle -----Original Message----- From: Christin Keck To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 11:55 AM Subject: marketing tips >This tip on my daily "Tip World" mail seemed especially >pertinent. > >The Internet is loaded with low-cost marketing >and promotion ideas. A great Web site to start >with is the Yahoo! Small Business center. This >site overflows with free tips and advice for >building your clientele. You'll find a treasure >trove at this URL: > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/ > >Depending on the type of business you're >running, you may also find worthwhile >information at these sites: > >Retailer News (http://retailernews.com/) >provides sales advice and inspirational >anecdotes to retail business owners, >managers, and salespeople. > >The Marketing Resource Center >(http://www.marketingsource.com) gives >advice on marketing your business on the >Internet as well as through traditional >channels. >-- >CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" >Visit the World of Whislbabe: >http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:05:03 -0500 Reply-To: shecrab@nospamconcentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: Marketing Tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're welcome. I heartily recommend the TipWorld Tips. These are little items delivererd right to your mailbox every day. They are on a huge variety of topics, some useful, some just fun. I believe the URL is simply http://www.tipworld.com to subscribe. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:50:24 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't believe that Sonsie meant any disrespect to anyone on the list. It's just that there are many reasons why an indexer might accept a very low rate. Among those reasons might be: 1. They are trying to establish themselves and will take any client at any price offered. 2. They simply don't know that other indexers are charging and receiving more money (as someone pointed out, not all indexers are in communication with other indexers). 3. They are having a slow period and are desperate for work. 4. They are interested in breaking into a new subject matter or type of indexing and willing to take lower pay in return for gaining experience. 5. Or, as I believe Sonsie meant, a family with two incomes simply has more options and may feel less financial pressure than a single income household. This could conceivably motivate such a person to accept lower pay as these kinds of jobs are readily available. Higher paying jobs are usually more difficult to get and may take more effort to complete. It certainly does not, nor did anyone imply, that an indexer producing a second income is any less of a professional or should accept lower pay. I might mention here that I, like Manjit, am a second income in similar circumstances. I work because I want to which gives me the kind of freedom to pick and choose my indexing projects. While I personally wouldn't work for $15/hour I can understand why someone take such a low pay even though it might be against their long range best interest. Regardless, it does seem shocking that major publishers would assume such low rates of pay to be acceptable. The nice thing about being a freelancer is that we are always free to say "no thank you." Best, Sylvia Coates --Original Message----- From: Manjit Sahai To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 2:55 AM Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? >Hi Sonsie, > >I respectfully disagree with your statement. My indexing income *is* >supplemental for my family. I index *full time*. My husband is a VP in an >engineering company and his income is in six figures. > >I will *never* work for any publisher who pays $15.00/18.00 per hour unless >I am starving to death.I have *too much* respect for myself and for my >profession. > >As a matter of fact, one big publisher from NY quoted me $15.00 hourly rate >just about few weeks back. She told me to choose between $15.00 hourly rate >...or....$1.50 page rate. Needless to say, I did not choose any rate. I >asked her if she has lots of indexers in her pool at that rate. She >said,...."I certainly do not have shortage and my file is overflowing with >indexers". These were her exact words. Only God knows who are those indexers >who work at that kind of rate. > >Just my thoughts on this issue. > >MANJIT SAHAI >Potomac Falls, VA > > > > >>From: Sonsie Conroy >>Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >>To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >>Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? >>Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:18:23 -0800 >> >>At 02:47 PM 11/8/1999 EST, Dalindex@AOL.COM wrote: >> >> >I absolutely agree with everything you are saying. What I don't >>understand is >> >that these big publishers must need many hundreds of books indexed each >> >year. So it would appear that many indexers do work for $15/hour. How do >>they >> >do it? >> >>They are able to get by with it because they are providing a second income >>in the family (their spouse or partner is earning a more substantial wage >>AND probably covering the indexer's withholding liability via their own >>withholding). Or they aren't doing this work full-time, but have a full- or >>part-time job to help out with the money. Or they are just plain >>struggling! >> >> Sonsie >> sconroy@slonet.org > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:27:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: German inversions In-Reply-To: <199911090509.AAA26433@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >This won't work: >Krosigk, (Commander) von >Krosigk, Schwerin von (German foreign minister) > >or will it? > That is how I'd handle those, except I'd drop the parens around "Commander." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:27:21 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Contracts In-Reply-To: <199911090509.AAA26433@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Do you have the client sign one contract >for all assignments or a contract for each assignment? One of my clients has >me sign a contract for each assignment. > Yes, I sign a contract for each assignment. The dates and even the fees vary so much, I don't know how I'd write a contract for more than one assignment (and maintain my independent contractor status). I use a contract whenever I work directly with an author or with a new publisher. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Debbie, I have a pretty good idea who the publisher is who is offering $18/hour. I doubt if anyone is actually earning that rate. It is just that indexers are submitting bills which conform to the rate some accountant thinks we should be making. I haven't worked for this particular client for several years, but when I was, I was told to be sure that the hours I billed for did not exceed the number of hours I had the work in my possession. Actually, I wasn't supposed to bill for more than about 40 or 45 hours per week, but it was mutually assumed that the number of hours was padded. As long as the total dollar amount looked right, nobody complained. This how my bill was actually determined: Back many years ago this giant publisher had a centralized Editorial Services Department. All freelance editing, proofreading and indexing assignments came through this department, regardless of which subsidiary of this huge publisher originated the work. The index editor in the Editorial Services Department was responsible for many hundreds of indexes passing through her hands. She knew that I wanted to make a certain amount per line of index. The figure I used 10 or 20 years ago would not be relevant today, so let's say I wanted $ 1.00 per line of index. If I was given a book to index with a line limit of, say, 2,100 lines and I submitted an index of exactly 2,100 lines, I would bill for 117 hours @ $18 per hour, for a total of $2,106.00. I was told to keep the hours in whole numbers, so 116:40 became 117 hours. As long as I had the work for three weeks this was agreeable to everybody. Nobody knew how much I actually earned per hour, and nobody cared. As long as the book came in at the budgeted amount, it didn't matter if I indexed fast or slow. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:27:52 EST Dalindex@AOL.COM writes: > Dear Collective Wisdom (and experience), > > I just received a call from a MAJOR (big) publishing company that pays > freelance indexers $15/hour. I negotiated a per page rate and am waiting to > hear back for final approval. Several months ago another big publisher > offered $18/hour. I can't help but wonder how they come up with these rates. > Do experienced indexers routinely work at these rates? > > Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 01:30:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: A Very Positive Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear fellow indexers, It is often that we see horror stories posted on this list. Usually regarding clients who don't pay their bills, make insane demands upon us, nitpick our work, change the material we are working from daily and generally don't appreciate us. Well, I have a different story to tell, a positive one, for a change. Almost a year ago, I indexed a book entitled "Mexico's Hope" for the Monthly Review Press, a small leftist publisher. The author, James Cockcroft, was very happy with my index and sent a note to the book's editor, who was less than enthusiastic about the index because he thought that I padded both the index and my invoice. The author also sent me a generous tip, something I have never received from an author before. Well, last Wednesday night there was a "book party/discussion" for "Mexico's Hope" sponsored by the publisher and an organization physically and politically close to it. I finally met Cockcroft. When I introduced myself to him, he responded with a bear hug! He then started to introduce me around as "The world's greatest living indexer." Since there were no other indexers in the room at the time (one did turn up much later), I felt no need to contradict him. During his talk, he read from the book's acknowledgements about three people in his life who have died in recent years. A few minutes later in his talk, he stopped and told about how important it is for an author to have an analytical indexer to index his or her book. He heaped lavish praise on me and my work. I was absolutely embarrassed. Later, during the Q and A, I got up, introduced myself, and the audience applauded me for what Cockcroft said about me. I've never had an experience quite like this. I am more used to editors being pissed at me for being late, for billing too much, for making some trivial error, well, you know the usual stuff. Something which must be mentioned here is that James Cockcroft, the author, was married to an indexer, Hedda Garza, who died in 1995 (one the three people who recently died that he acknowledged), so he started out knowledgeable about the lives and work of indexers. If there is anyone out there who knew Hedda Garza, please let me know. I'm curious about whose steps I'm following. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:34:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? In-Reply-To: <199911090509.AAA26433@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree with everybody else's cautions and advice. There is another possible explanation for the quote. Silly as it may sound, the editor may be new and is quoting you the press's rate for copyediting, thinking that all freelancers are paid the same. I don't know how copy editors can live on that either--I couldn't, and that's why I do only indexing now--but that's another story. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:24:35 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Bill-expressions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No, I don't purge all the copies. That's why I can still find them lurking on the NET. I purge what I can purge. I am not Microsoft, however. Some people are suggesting that Microsoft could not figure out a way to deep six the incriminating email or that it would be very difficult to do so. This is Microsoft, folks. They can do anything. And just look at the incentive they should have had. Now, they could have just taken the lowtech option and kept their "strangle Netscape" and "shove it down their throats" comments for the water cooler. I think the corporate arrogance explanation is more plausible than the technically infeasible explanation. After all, Microsoft could just have written the email destruct program, couldn't it? Nick Koenig >At 12:34 PM -0800 11/8/99, nkoenig wrote: >>... since it appears that email did much of the >>damage to Microsoft's case, I can't help but wonder >>why these incriminating messages weren't just >>deleted. But then Nixon didn't smoke those tapes >>either. I purge my email twice a day. >>... >> >>Nick Koenig > >Yes, but do you also purge the backups that may be made by servers >along the way, and the copies on the recipient's weekly tape backups, >and what about the recipient's ISP, etc. etc. > >There is no guaranteed way of destroying your own email once it has >been sent across an intranet or the internet. Except for this >startup I just heard about where the email has an embedded encryption >key which self-destructs after a time period selected by the sender >of the message... no matter where it is stored in the meantime, or >how many copies exist, none of them can be read any more. They are >getting a LOT of inquiries from corporate executives. > > >Regards, >Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter >[please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:57:20 -0500 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Re: legal indexers needed In-Reply-To: <19991108.181341.-447205.0.indexer@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2A88.0C79F020" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2A88.0C79F020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning Michael! I received an email from Shirley Warkentin on your need for indexers. I'm attaching my resume. I have been indexing for 25 years, and have a very broad background. I have some legal experience, having indexed pharmaceutical-related legal documents for marketed drugs and also for clinical trials. I am currently available to start a project, and I look forward to hearing from you. Sincerely, Joanne L. Rohrbach Dogwood InfoServices 3120 Naamans Rd, Stratford House 203 Wilmington, DE 19810 302-477-1223 ------------------------------------- > > >>Michael Huppe > MCLE > Boston, MA > > We are a nonprofit legal publisher in Boston who uses freelance indexers > for > all our publications. Due to a very aggressive publications schedule, we > are > in need of freelance indexers for one immediate and several upcoming > projects. If you are interested, or know anyone who might be, please > contact > Michael Huppe at mhuppe@mcle.org. > > Thanks for any consideration/information you can provide. > > Michael Huppe > MCLE >> > ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2A88.0C79F020 Content-Type: application/msword; name="Rohrbach.rtf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Rohrbach.rtf" {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\uc1 = \deff11\deflang1033\deflangfe1033{\fonttbl{\f0\froman\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\= panose 02020603050405020304}Times New = Roman;}{\f1\fswiss\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose = 020b0604020202020204}Arial;} {\f3\froman\fcharset2\fprq2{\*\panose = 05050102010706020507}Symbol;}{\f11\fswiss\fcharset0\fprq2{\*\panose = 00000000000000000000}MS Sans Serif;}{\f14\fnil\fcharset2\fprq2{\*\panose = 05000000000000000000}Wingdings;} {\f16\froman\fcharset0\fprq0{\*\panose 00000000000000000000}Bodoni Bd = BT;}}{\colortbl;\red0\green0\blue0;\red0\green0\blue255;\red0\green255\bl= ue255;\red0\green255\blue0;\red255\green0\blue255;\red255\green0\blue0;\r= ed255\green255\blue0; \red255\green255\blue255;\red0\green0\blue128;\red0\green128\blue128;\red= 0\green128\blue0;\red128\green0\blue128;\red128\green0\blue0;\red128\gree= n128\blue0;\red128\green128\blue128;\red192\green192\blue192;}{\styleshee= t{\widctlpar\adjustright=20 \f11\fs20\cgrid \snext0 = Normal;}{\s1\qc\keepn\widctlpar\tx10800\outlinelevel0\adjustright = \f1\cgrid \sbasedon0 \snext0 heading 1;}{\*\cs10 \additive Default = Paragraph Font;}{\*\cs15 \additive \ul\cf2 \sbasedon10 = Hyperlink;}{\*\cs16 \additive \b=20 \sbasedon10 = Strong;}}{\*\listtable{\list\listtemplateid67698697\listsimple{\listlevel= \levelnfc23\leveljc0\levelfollow0\levelstartat1\levelspace0\levelindent0{= \leveltext\'01\u-3978 ?;}{\levelnumbers;}\f14\fbias0 = \fi-360\li360\jclisttab\tx360 }{\listname=20 ;}\listid146215744}{\list\listtemplateid67698697\listsimple{\listlevel\le= velnfc23\leveljc0\levelfollow0\levelstartat1\levelspace0\levelindent0{\le= veltext\'01\u-3978 ?;}{\levelnumbers;}\f14\fbias0 = \fi-360\li360\jclisttab\tx360 }{\listname=20 ;}\listid398286506}{\list\listtemplateid67698689\listsimple{\listlevel\le= velnfc23\leveljc0\levelfollow0\levelstartat1\levelspace0\levelindent0{\le= veltext\'01\u-3913 ?;}{\levelnumbers;}\f3\fbias0 = \fi-360\li360\jclisttab\tx360 }{\listname ;}\listid568925408 }{\list\listtemplateid-210332018\listsimple{\listlevel\levelnfc0\leveljc0= \levelfollow0\levelstartat1976\levelspace0\levelindent0{\leveltext\'01\'0= 0;}{\levelnumbers\'01;}\fbias0 \fi-720\li2160\jclisttab\tx2160 = }{\listname ;}\listid697004676}} {\*\listoverridetable{\listoverride\listid697004676\listoverridecount0\ls= 1}{\listoverride\listid146215744\listoverridecount0\ls2}{\listoverride\li= stid398286506\listoverridecount0\ls3}{\listoverride\listid568925408\listo= verridecount0\ls4}}{\info {\title Joanne L}{\author J Rohrbach}{\operator Joanne L. = Rohrbch}{\creatim\yr1999\mo11\dy1\hr15\min4}{\revtim\yr1999\mo11\dy9\hr7\= min47}{\printim\yr1999\mo11\dy1\hr19\min12}{\version4}{\edmins6}{\nofpage= s2}{\nofwords641}{\nofchars3659}{\*\company DIS} {\nofcharsws0}{\vern113}}\widowctrl\ftnbj\aendnotes\aftnstart0\hyphhotz0\= aftnnar\lytprtmet\hyphcaps0\viewkind1\viewscale100\pgbrdrhead\pgbrdrfoot = \fet0\sectd \linex0\endnhere\sectdefaultcl = {\*\pnseclvl1\pnucrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta .}} {\*\pnseclvl2\pnucltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta = .}}{\*\pnseclvl3\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta = .}}{\*\pnseclvl4\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl5\pndec\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta = )}} {\*\pnseclvl6\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl7\pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl8\pnlcltr\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta = )}}{\*\pnseclvl9 \pnlcrm\pnstart1\pnindent720\pnhang{\pntxtb (}{\pntxta )}}\pard\plain = \qc\widctlpar\tx10800\adjustright \f11\fs20\cgrid {\f1 Joanne L. = Rohrbach \par 3021 Naamans Rd., Apt 203 \par }\pard\plain = \s1\qc\keepn\widctlpar\tx10800\outlinelevel0\adjustright \f1\cgrid = {\fs20 Wilmington, DE 19810-2191 \par }\pard\plain \qc\widctlpar\tx10800\adjustright \f11\fs20\cgrid {\f1 = 302-477-1223 \par Cellular: 302-584-8559 \par email: rohrbach@delanet.com}{\f16\fs24=20 \par }{\f1=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar\tx10800\adjustright {\b\f1 Summary:}{\f1=20 \par I have extensive experience }{\b\f1 abstracting}{\f1 and }{\b\f1 = indexing}{\f1 published journal articles and proprietary information = for a variety of companies. My primary interests are in the = medical/pharmaceutical, history, and sociology}{\b\f1 }{ \f1 areas. I also have experience in the technology of aircraft, = automobiles and their components, and nuclear power. I am familiar with = Internet documentation and searching, having done writing, editing, and = searching for online reference sites. \par=20 \par Formats indexed: books and manuals, journal articles and abstracts, = databases, and web pages. \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par }{\b\f1 Education:\tab }{\f1 1972 \tab Bachelor of Arts in = Biology, Hollins College, Hollins, Virginia \par \tab \tab \tab \tab Minor in Chemistry}{\b\f1=20 \par }{\f1 \tab \tab 1973\tab Graduate work, Medical School, Duke = University \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f1\fs20\cgrid \hich\af1\dbch\af0\loch\f1 = 1976\tab}}\pard \fi-720\li2160\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx2160{\*\pn = \pnlvlbody\ilvl0\ls1\pnrnot0\pndec\pnstart1976\pnindent2160\pnhang}\ls1\a= djustright {\f1 Wiswesser Line Notation \par }\pard \li1440\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 1976\tab PL-1 Programming = course, N.C. State University \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par }{\b\f1 Experience:\tab }{\f1 1972-1976\tab Autonomic Pharmacology = Research, Burroughs Wellcome Co., \par \tab \tab \tab \tab Research Triangle Park, NC \par \tab=20 \par }\pard \fi-1440\li2880\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 1976-1979\tab = Supervison, Indexing Section, Scientific Documentation Dept., Burroughs = Wellcome Co, Research Triangle Park, NC \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par \tab \tab 1976-present\tab Salaried/Free-Lance indexer/abstractor \par \tab \tab=20 \par \tab \tab Contracts, Past and Present \par \tab \tab \tab UG Division, GGS Information Services, York, PA \par \tab \tab \tab Editorial Services, Annapolis, Md. \par \tab \tab \tab John Wiley & Sons, New York City \par \tab \tab \tab Sinauer Associates, Sunderland, Massachusetts \par \tab \tab \tab Interpharm Press, Buffalo Grove, Illinois \par \tab \tab \tab Greg Hubit Bookworks, Larkspur, California\tab=20 \par \tab \tab \tab Institute for Scientific Information (ISI), = Philadelphia, PA \par \tab \tab \tab Peters Technology Transfer, Swarthmore, PA \par \tab \tab \tab E.I.DuPont DeNemours and Co., Inc., Wilmington, DE \par \tab \tab \tab Japanese Technical Information Service, Media, PA \par }\pard \fi720\li1440\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 Burroughs Wellcome = Co, Inc. (now Glaxo-Wellcome), Research \par }\pard \fi720\li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 Triangle Park, NC \par=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 \tab }{\b\f1 Listing of books = indexed:}{\f1\ul=20 \par }{\f1=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls2\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls2\adjustright {\f1\ul Our Sexuality}{\f1=20 , by Robert Crooks and Karla Baur, 7}{\f1\super th}{\f1 edition, c1999. = 704 pages. published by Brooks/Cole Publishers. \par }\pard \li720\widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls2\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls2\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 Validation and Qualification in Analytical Laboratories}{\f1 , by Ludwig = Huber, 1}{\f1\super st}{\f1 edition. c1998. 310 pages. Buffalo Grove, = Ill: Interpharm Press. \par }\pard \li720\widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls2\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls2\adjustright {\f1\ul Biological Psychology}{\f1=20 , by Mark R. Rosenzweig, Arnold L. Leiman, and S. Marc Breedlove. = 2}{\f1\super nd}{\f1 edition. c1998. 654 pages. Sunderland, = Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates, Inc. \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul Western Civilization}{ \cs16\b\ul : }{\cs16\f1\ul A History of European Society}{\f1\ul ,}{\f1 = by Steven Hause and William Maltby. 1}{\f1\super st}{\f1 edition. = c1999. 956 pages. Wadsworth Publishing Co. \par }\pard \widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright { \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul Encyclopedia of=20 Electrical and Electronics Engineering}{\f1 , ed. John G. Webster. = C1999. 23 volumes. (completed by a team of indexers)}{\f1\ul=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul Sociology in Our Time}{\f1=20 , by Diana Kendall. 2}{\f1\super nd}{\f1 edition. C1999. 494 pages. = Wadsworth Publishing Co.}{\f1\ul=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul American Corrections}{\f1=20 , by Todd R. Clear, and George F. Cole. 5}{\f1\super th}{\f1 edition. = C2000 (in press). 515 pages. Wadsworth Publishing Co.}{\f1\ul=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 Choices in Relationships: An Introduction to Marriage and the = Family}{\f1 , by David Knox, and Caroline Schacht. 6}{\f1\super th}{\f1 = edition. C2000 (in press). 534 pages. Wadsworth Publishing Co.}{\f1\ul=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar{\*\pn \pnlvlcont\ilvl0\ls0\pnrnot0\pndec = }\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f14\fs20\cgrid \loch\af14\dbch\af0\hich\f14 = \'76\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li1800\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx1800{\*\pn = \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls3\pnrnot0\pnf14\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb = v}}\ls3\adjustright {\f1\ul=20 >From These Beginnings : A Biographical Approach to American History}{ , = Vol. 1 and 2, by Roderick Nash and Gregory Graves. 6}{\super th}{ = edition. C1999. }{\f1\fs18 Addison-Wesley Publishing Co. }{\f1\ul=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par }\pard \fi-2160\li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f1 Membership: = \tab American Society of Indexers=20 \par }\pard \fi720\li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 1997- present \par=20 \par }\pard \fi-2160\li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 \tab }{\b\f1 = American Society of Indexers, Scientific/Technology Special Interest = Group=20 \par }\pard \fi720\li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 1997- present \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par }{\b\f1 Areas of expertise:\tab }{\f1 Medical and Pharmaceuticals, = Biology, Pharmacology, Toxicology,=20 \par \tab \tab \tab Medical Diagnostics, Pharmaceutical Production and = Quality Control,=20 \par }\pard \li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 Biotechnology, Nuclear = Power, Aircraft, Automotive Engineering, History, and Sociology. \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\f1=20 \par }{\b\f1 Fun and Recreation\tab }{\f1 1998-present \par }\pard \fi720\li720\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 \tab=20 \par }\pard \li2160\widctlpar\adjustright {\f1 Volunteer staff member = in-game systems operator, and Department Head, Staff Information = Management, MultiPlayer BattleTech\'ae (M PBT), a product of Kesmai Corp., Charlottesville, Virginia. MPBT is an = online, multiplayer war game offered at the Gamestorm web site = (}{\field\flddirty{\*\fldinst {\f1 HYPERLINK http://www.gamestorm.com) = }{\f1 {\*\datafield=20 00d0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b0200000017000000130000007700770077002e0= 0670061006d006500730074006f0072006d002e0063006f006d0029000000e0c9ea79f9ba= ce118c8200aa004ba90b3600000068007400740070003a002f002f007700770077002e006= 70061006d006500730074006f0072006d00 2e0063006f006d0029002f00000000007b0001fe0000920fa000002f43005c0000}}}{\fl= drslt {\cs15\ul www.gamestorm.com)}}}{\f1 , which is played against = other players in real time. I am in=20 the process of building an information website for staff member = retrieval of game-related online information. As the website grows, I = will be indexing the material for easy access. I am also trained in = strict in-game procedures to handle problem players and to teach players new to the game. Previously, I coordinated the = in-game operations of the staff. I also write standard operating = procedures for the in-game operations staff. \par=20 \par }\pard \widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f1 Hobbies\tab \tab }{\f1 = Camping, gardening, quilting}{\f0=20 \par }} ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BF2A88.0C79F020-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:06:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Very Positive Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elliot, Thanks for telling that story. I had a similar experience (although I wasn't called the 'greatest living indexer'!) last spring when I attended a book signing at the local bookstore by the (local) author of a book I'd indexed. The author introduced me and complimented my work. She then autographed my copy (the publisher had sent me a copy for once) with a written thanks for the index. In addition, the author, an art historian, has recently given my name to a museum curator for whom I am going to index an exhibit catalog. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:18:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Indented format; chronological order MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been asked to provide an index for a history book that will be in indented format, but with chronological order for subentries. I've seen chronological order in run-in format, but not in indented format. Anyone have experience with how this will look and whether I should recommend run-in format if they definately want to keep chrono order? Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents Discussion List ---> http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > susanhernandez@JUNO.COM wrote: > > > > ... many sopranos were overweight women. And David Brown queried: > So, what are they now? :) Thinner? I believe fewer of the top divas are overweight now than in previous eras -- though that stereotype has never been completely accurate. However, there does seem to be at least some correlation between operatic voices (in general) and larger bodies, due perhaps in part to the fact that larger chest cavities tend to produce larger voices. Of course, one can have a large chest cavity and not be overweight, but it seems that the genes for larger bones/larger skeleton are often accompanied by a genetic tendency to gain weight easily. (I've even heard it said that when some singers have lost weight, their voices have suffered. But I can't confirm that with firsthand observations.) That said, there are plenty of singers out there who are by no means "fat ladies" (what an awful term!) who nonetheless have phenomenal voices and are at or nearing the top of the operatic/classical field. Kathleen Battle, Frederica von Stade, and Denyse Graves jump immediately to mind. Kara Pekar (indexer and singer) (I'm not divulging my weight!) Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:26:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: The last word on Corpulent Singing Females MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit susanhernandez@JUNO.COM wrote: > > ... many sopranos were overweight women. David Brown queried: > > So, what are they now? :) To which Kara Pekar suggested: > > Thinner? I love this list! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:26:12 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm a little surprised at the response my post got. I certainly NEVER meant any disrespect for anybody here, whether they accept that kind of hourly rate or not. The question was, "how do they do it [live on such a low rate]?", and I gave three possible ways that they did...no judgment intended. And I certainly didn't mean that every single person who provides a second income to his/her family must, ipso facto, be happy to receive a pittance because theirs is not the primary income. Far from it! We are a two-income family (whose is greater fluctuates year to year and even month to month), and there have been times when out of desperation I have taken a much lower rate than I normally would accept. Mostly, though, I have not done this...witness my note a month or so ago, when I was offered $1.50 per page to index a 3000+ page project I'd been doing for years for $3.65. I turned it down flat, even though it represented a huge chunk of my yearly income. What I was getting at was that if your spouse is employed full-time at a job which provides many of the benefits an indexer doesn't get (health insurance, retirement benefits, paid vacations, etc.), it may be easier for you to accept a lower rate for your work because you don't have to cover all those expenses (to say nothing of dealing with estimated taxes quarterly). And, if you really want the work, or need it, you may feel it is necessary to take a low-paying job...knowing that these other financial details are covered. I also agree that for many, indexing is a solitary "cottage industry" kind of thing...no contact with other indexers, no idea of the going rate, etc. In fact, I think ALL the explanations that have been brought forward are legitimate. There are all kinds of reasons for accepting an extremely low rate...and the three I offered were just a sample. I'm sorry if I offended anybody, as I certainly didn't mean to. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:00:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Flaig Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I accept a lower hourly rate from a long-standing client, but I feel that I have derived some non-monetary rewards. I have a very congenial relationship with the editors--one of long standing. If I am slow, I know I can call them anytime, and as they publish many book they will usually come up with a project. The books they publish are very interesting and varied--and have provided me with a wealth of experience in tackling different fields and topics. When an editor has moved on, they have called me and hired me at a higher rate at their new company. I am also curious to know what types of publishers provide the much higher hourly rate--are they academic? or technical? I like to vary my workload and intersperse some lighter trade books which are easy and fun. I find that the trade publishers often have a standard lower hourly rate. I also sometimes work for an entry rate and I would be curious to know what experiences other indexers have had with it--is there a standard entry rate? When you work quickly, I think the entry rate can be an advantage. Marilyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:39:32 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: semper obesa cantat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To which list I would add Renee Fleming and Carol Vanesse. However, Jane Eglin can sing in my opera no matter how much weight she puts on. Nick Koenig > >That said, there are plenty of singers out there who are by no means "fat >ladies" (what an awful term!) who nonetheless have phenomenal voices and >are at or nearing the top of the operatic/classical field. Kathleen >Battle, Frederica von Stade, and Denyse Graves jump immediately to mind. > >Kara Pekar (indexer and singer) (I'm not divulging my weight!) >Wordsmith Indexing Services >jkpekar@crosslink.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:26:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: double posting entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have a question somewhat related to David Brown's recent survey on cross-references. I seem to always get myself in a muddle by the time I finish typing entries for an index. I often find that I have posted references to the same material under different index terms. Or I have some of it entered as sub-entries under a main heading and the rest posted as a main entry. Trying to pull all those loose ends together and getting all the equivalent entries to match seems to be one of the hardest tasks for me. This is an example of the sort of thing I end up with. federal taxes, 10-12, 15 income taxes, 25 social security taxes, 12, 18 state taxes, 22 taxes federal, 10-12 social security, 12 state, 9-10, 25 unemployment taxes, 20, 27 The page numbers don't jibe because I've forgotten the multiple postings I made for a topic, or posted differently on reoccurrence. A subheading for unemployment taxes needs to be added under "taxes." Then, I've thought of posting under "income taxes" on page 25, but there are also mentions on pages 9-12 that I don't have. In this case, grouping on "taxes" will pull all these together, which helps, but that trick doesn't always work. So even finding all these related entries can be a headache. My brain tends to freeze at this point, and I go take an aspirin. ;-) Obviously, if I had a better memory of how I post things it would help. Failing that, does anyone have any good tricks? I am considering plugging in _see_ references for every alternative term I can think of as soon as I post a topic in order to steer myself to one-and-only-one entry term. I can always convert the _see_ entries to double posts later, if needed. Any ideas on how it is best to enter a term initially -- as a main (federal taxes) or a sub-entry (taxes/ federal)? I lean toward the latter since it groups together related stuff. Or at least it does in this example. 8-/ Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:12:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Charlotte! It does not make sense to have the index-l list reply only to sender; it must continue to send its messages to all on the list. It is the individual replying to a message (whether it is from index-l or an individual) who must decide whether to reply to all or reply only to the sender - and it is that individual's mail software and personal settings that determine what each command does. (Unfortunately, my mail software replies to all when I choose Reply; but I am aware that I have to be careful, and for example cut and paste the individual's mail address into my reply if I want only that one person to receive it.) Charlotte Skuster wrote: > > Hi all, > I can change the setting to reply-to-sender. However, that does not make > sense. This is a discussion list, and most replies will be to the list. > Personal replies are not a huge problem here. And I think we can tolerate the > occaisonal slip. > Just be careful out there...8-) > > Charlotte Skuster > Index-l moderator > > mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL wrote: > > > It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with > > majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls) > > uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply > > function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such > > as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give > > you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but > > older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows > > how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of > > the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is > > there. > > > > Avital > > > > Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 > > Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 > > Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University > > http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. > > > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: > > > > > << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other > > > lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to > > > all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> > > > > > > > > > A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the > > > list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set > > > how you want to handle this. > > > > > > HTH. > > > > > > Elaine > > > > > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > > > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > > > > > -- > Charlotte Skuster > Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer > Binghamton University Science Library > P. O. Box 6012 > Binghamton, NY 13902-6012 > Phone: (607) 777-4122 > Fax: (607) 777-2274 > skuster@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:17:20 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joel S. Berson" Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But be careful about > This header style allows most email programs to see the original > sender. Thus, clicking the "Reply" button sends to one person, and > "reply to all" sends to that person plus the list. I use this with > Netscape's built in email program, and it works. Not all mailers are smart enough to make this distinction - mine isn't! Check what appears in your "Mail to" line when you Reply or Reply-to-All. greenhou@EROLS.COM wrote: > > For those of you who want to, you can change your Index-L subscription > parameters to allow your email programs to take care of this. > > Method one: > Go to http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html > click on "join or leave the list (or change settings)" line > Fill in the blanks as appropriate, and under mail header style, click to > select > " sendmail-style" (IETFHDR) > Click the "join the list button" . > Reply to the confirmation procedure as instructed. > > Note that from this screen you can change your list options. Following > the login procedure also allows you to update your subscription > interactively over the Web. > > Method two: > Send a message to: > LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu > (CUT AND PASTE THIS ADDRESS INTO THE TO: LINE OF YOUR MESSAGE NOW) > Leave subject line blank > Message is: SET Index-L IETFhdr > Send message. > The listserver should send you back a message confirming your changes. > > This header style allows most email programs to see the original > sender. Thus, clicking the "Reply" button sends to one person, and > "reply to all" sends to that person plus the list. I use this with > Netscape's built in email program, and it works. > > Shelley Greenhouse > (been there, done that) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:29:18 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I must disagree with the statement (made more than once now in this debate) that it is how the email software is configured that determines whether Reply goes to all or one. I'm also on the techwr-l list. REPLY for that list automatically goes to the individual poster; in index-l, REPLY goes to the list. With several years' experience in using and documenting software, I'm 99% confident this difference indicates that the result of clicking REPLY is list-determined, not email-software-determined. Just had to get that off my chest...:) Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Joel S. Berson [mailto:J.Berson@WORLDNET.ATT.NET] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 4:13 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function Thank you Charlotte! It does not make sense to have the index-l list reply only to sender; it must continue to send its messages to all on the list. It is the individual replying to a message (whether it is from index-l or an individual) who must decide whether to reply to all or reply only to the sender - and it is that individual's mail software and personal settings that determine what each command does. (Unfortunately, my mail software replies to all when I choose Reply; but I am aware that I have to be careful, and for example cut and paste the individual's mail address into my reply if I want only that one person to receive it.) Charlotte Skuster wrote: > > Hi all, > I can change the setting to reply-to-sender. However, that does not make > sense. This is a discussion list, and most replies will be to the list. > Personal replies are not a huge problem here. And I think we can tolerate the > occaisonal slip. > Just be careful out there...8-) > > Charlotte Skuster > Index-l moderator > > mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL wrote: > > > It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with > > majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls) > > uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply > > function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such > > as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give > > you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but > > older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows > > how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of > > the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is > > there. > > > > Avital > > > > Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 > > Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 > > Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University > > http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. > > > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: > > > > > << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other > > > lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to > > > all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> > > > > > > > > > A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the > > > list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set > > > how you want to handle this. > > > > > > HTH. > > > > > > Elaine > > > > > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > > > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > > > > > -- > Charlotte Skuster > Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer > Binghamton University Science Library > P. O. Box 6012 > Binghamton, NY 13902-6012 > Phone: (607) 777-4122 > Fax: (607) 777-2274 > skuster@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 16:47:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Jacobs Subject: Re: double posting entries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" .... I often find that I have posted >references to the same material under different index terms. Or I have some >of it entered as sub-entries under a main heading and the rest posted as a >main entry. Trying to pull all those loose ends together and getting all the >equivalent entries to match seems to be one of the hardest tasks for me. This is a perennial problem! One way I have of getting around it is to post to only one term until I am at the editing stage. Then I copy the entries wherever they seem best. This seems to work reasonably well, as you have a true picture of the whole at that point. In order to keep track of ideas, you can make "note records" to yourself such as: aa - double post record 235 under term x and z. (obviously you could abbreviate this note considerably eg: 235 >> x & y ) The aa will make all the notes file at the beginning of the index; you could use numbers too, I guess, depending on the index. Then when you do the edit you go through the notes systematically copying the entries where needed and erasing the notes. I think your "see" system might prove awkward because you might want to make entries under the rejected term that have nothing to do with the one you are pointing at. No harm in trying it out, however. Christine **************************************************************************** ****** Christine Jacobs cmjacobs@johnabbott.qc.ca Co-Chair Information and Library Technologies Dept. John Abbott College P.O. Box 2000 Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue, QC H9X 3L9 Canada Tel: (514) 457-6610 loc 470 Fax: (514) 457-4730 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:00:27 -0800 Reply-To: Julie Shawvan Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Shawvan Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Even though many of the editors who offer us $15 an hour have no power or inclination to change the situation, I think it is worth taking a few moments to educate them. They may look at that $15 figure, do a quick mental calculation, and conclude that we are earning $30,000 a year. I'm sure that some of them don't earn more than that, so why should they see us as anything but just another group that feels entitled to more than they are getting? We can explain that we pay for all of our own benefits, that we pay 15.3% self-employment tax off the top of our net income, and that we work many unpaid hours managing our businesses, work that in-house employees would be paid to do. It may seem like a drop in the ocean to say this to one editor, but I think that this is part of the continual educational process that we as professionals are responsible for. This is the business side of that education, which is as important as our efforts to teach editors about the process and purpose of good indexing. Julie Shawvan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:18:51 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: double posting entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann: I have made a rule for myself: never, *ever* double-post during the first pass, no matter how convinced I am that the term will never come up again or that I will remember if it does. I always make a cross-reference instead. Then at the final edit when I am checking all my cross-references I convert the appropriate ones to double-postings. This conversion takes a little more time during the final edit, but not as much as hunting down double-postings I may have missed. The only hard part is resisting the temptation to double-post while indexing. This approach pays off, at least for me. Whether you make the initial posting at the direct term or the indirect term doesn't matter, though it makes life easier if you're consistent. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Ann Truesdale To: Sent: Monday, 08 November, 1999 12:26 Subject: double posting entries > Hi all, > > I have a question somewhat related to David Brown's recent survey on > cross-references. I seem to always get myself in a muddle by the time I > finish typing entries for an index. I often find that I have posted > references to the same material under different index terms. Or I have some > of it entered as sub-entries under a main heading and the rest posted as a > main entry. Trying to pull all those loose ends together and getting all the > equivalent entries to match seems to be one of the hardest tasks for me. > > This is an example of the sort of thing I end up with. > > federal taxes, 10-12, 15 > income taxes, 25 > social security taxes, 12, 18 > state taxes, 22 > taxes > federal, 10-12 > social security, 12 > state, 9-10, 25 > unemployment taxes, 20, 27 > > The page numbers don't jibe because I've forgotten the multiple postings I > made for a topic, or posted differently on reoccurrence. A subheading for > unemployment taxes needs to be added under "taxes." Then, I've thought of > posting under "income taxes" on page 25, but there are also mentions on > pages 9-12 that I don't have. In this case, grouping on "taxes" will pull > all these together, which helps, but that trick doesn't always work. So > even finding all these related entries can be a headache. My brain tends to > freeze at this point, and I go take an aspirin. ;-) > > Obviously, if I had a better memory of how I post things it would help. > Failing that, does anyone have any good tricks? I am considering plugging in > _see_ references for every alternative term I can think of as soon as I post > a topic in order to steer myself to one-and-only-one entry term. I can > always convert the _see_ entries to double posts later, if needed. > > Any ideas on how it is best to enter a term initially -- as a main (federal > taxes) or a sub-entry (taxes/ federal)? I lean toward the latter since it > groups together related stuff. Or at least it does in this example. 8-/ > > Ann > > > Ann Truesdale > anntrue@mindspring.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:16:00 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991109172612.0119dc74@slonet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I'm a little surprised at the response my post got. I think people get rubbed a bit raw because there are repeated calls not to take low rates. It is good that the other side has been put for a change - that it isn't always so easy, or necessarily always right to hold out for high rates. It is always easy to exhort, or even condemn, but less easy to give practical help and advice, especially in this difficult area. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:47:05 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indented format; chronological order MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chronological or any other order is independent of the format of the index. Many times chron order is used in biographies, which might have larged indexes, hence use run-in format to save space. If the editor wants chron order and indented format, by all means provide it. I see no problem; it's sort of a mix-and-match situation so far as I'm concerned. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated Tue, 9 Nov 1999 9:23:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Dan Connolly" writes: > I've been asked to provide an index for a history book that will be in > indented format, but with chronological order for subentries. > > I've seen chronological order in run-in format, but not in indented format. > Anyone have experience with how this will look and whether I should > recommend run-in format if they definately want to keep chrono order? > > Dan > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com > Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com > Indexstudents Discussion List ---> > http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:04:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: caledoniaskye@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is the fourth e-mail I have sent requesting removal from the list. Please comply. Thank you Judith A. Rowland ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:36:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have been removed. Sorry, but this is the first message I have seen from you. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator caledoniaskye@JUNO.COM wrote: > This is the fourth e-mail I have sent requesting removal from the list. > Please comply. > > Thank you > > Judith A. Rowland -- Charlotte Skuster Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer Binghamton University Science Library P. O. Box 6012 Binghamton, NY 13902-6012 Phone: (607) 777-4122 Fax: (607) 777-2274 skuster@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is the fourth e-mail I have sent requesting removal from the list. > Please comply. > My husband watches some permutation of Star Trek nightly. I feel like I just got an e-mail from outer space - from 7 of 11, or whatever her name... er, number, is. ;-D To echo David's comment earlier today: I love this list! Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:50:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? Comments: To: Julie Shawvan In-Reply-To: <00c601bf2afd$ef02e4e0$eafaa9ce@0xjju> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 02:00 PM 11/9/99 -0800, Julie Shawvan wrote: >Even though many of the editors who offer us $15 an hour have no power or >inclination to change the situation, I think it is worth taking a few >moments to educate them. They may look at that $15 figure, do a quick mental >calculation, and conclude that we are earning $30,000 a year. Hi All: Are editors really thinking about what we, as a profession, might make on a yearly basis, or what they have to work with in terms of a budget for the specific book? Isn't it the budget that an editor/author has to work with that determines what we as indexers get paid? Willa (who is discouraged because I said no to a low-paying job and someone else took it 2 days later.....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:43:06 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function In-Reply-To: <3828B873.3231@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I disagree. Changing the default to "reply to sender" does not cut off discussion. It does, however, significantly reduce the chance of sending a personal letter to the list. I have done that at least twice on this list (and one of them could have had professional repercussions because it was confidential information about a publisher) because it is the only one of 14 lists to which I subscribe (with the exception of the one I moderate) which has a "reply to list address" default. In fact, the problem is becoming so common that I plan to change the default of my own list to "sender." In an ideal world, all subscribers would be alert and would check their headers vigilantly but we all have moments of fatigue and carelessness. Also, I think most of us tend to be more careful about what we write to a list (and that includes checking the header to make sure that it is going to the list and not to an individual), while writing personal letters in a more slapdash fashion. Just my own opinion. Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Thank you Charlotte! It does not make sense to have the index-l list > reply only to sender; it must continue to send its messages to all on > the list. > > It is the individual replying to a message (whether it is from index-l > or an individual) who must decide whether to reply to all or reply only > to the sender - and it is that individual's mail software and personal > settings that determine what each command does. (Unfortunately, my mail > software replies to all when I choose Reply; but I am aware thatI have > to be careful, and for example cut and paste the individual's mail > address into my reply if I want only that one person to receive it.) > > Charlotte Skuster wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > I can change the setting to reply-to-sender. However, that doesnot make > > sense. This is a discussion list, and most replies will be to the list. > > Personal replies are not a huge problem here. And I think we can tolerate the > > occaisonal slip. > > Just be careful out there...8-) > > > > Charlotte Skuster > > Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:39:18 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: double posting entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, I allow a third of my total indexing time for editing, and I know that at least some other indexers do the same. This is ample time to consolidate the sort of entries you show here, which look quite reasonable to me for raw data. I once decided to consolidate all entries at the beginning (ie make my decisions about See references as soon as I encountered a term). The section of the book was about symbolic play, which was treated as a synonym of pretend play, so I made a heading like 'symbolic (pretend) play' with a reference from 'pretend play'. Later I discovered subtle differences and had to go through all of the entries under my constructed term to see which should go under 'symbolic play' and which under 'pretend play'. So now I index everything under the word that seems best at the time, and fix it up afterwards. I do, however, make extensive references as I go, so that any thought I have about synonyms and other relationships is documented the moment I have it. The lovely thing about indexing software is that it is so easy to add and delete comments, etc. Glenda. > Hi all, > > I have a question somewhat related to David Brown's recent survey on > cross-references. I seem to always get myself in a muddle by the time I > finish typing entries for an index. I often find that I have posted > references to the same material under different index terms. Or I have some > of it entered as sub-entries under a main heading and the rest posted as a > main entry. Trying to pull all those loose ends together and getting all the > equivalent entries to match seems to be one of the hardest tasks for me. > > This is an example of the sort of thing I end up with. > > federal taxes, 10-12, 15 > income taxes, 25 > social security taxes, 12, 18 > state taxes, 22 > taxes > federal, 10-12 > social security, 12 > state, 9-10, 25 > unemployment taxes, 20, 27 > > The page numbers don't jibe because I've forgotten the multiple postings I > made for a topic, or posted differently on reoccurrence. A subheading for > unemployment taxes needs to be added under "taxes." Then, I've thought of > posting under "income taxes" on page 25, but there are also mentions on > pages 9-12 that I don't have. In this case, grouping on "taxes" will pull > all these together, which helps, but that trick doesn't always work. So > even finding all these related entries can be a headache. My brain tends to > freeze at this point, and I go take an aspirin. ;-) > > Obviously, if I had a better memory of how I post things it would help. > Failing that, does anyone have any good tricks? I am considering plugging in > _see_ references for every alternative term I can think of as soon as I post > a topic in order to steer myself to one-and-only-one entry term. I can > always convert the _see_ entries to double posts later, if needed. > > Any ideas on how it is best to enter a term initially -- as a main (federal > taxes) or a sub-entry (taxes/ federal)? I lean toward the latter since it > groups together related stuff. Or at least it does in this example. 8-/ > > Ann > > > Ann Truesdale > anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:43:28 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: names again In-Reply-To: <0.21bd83ce.2556697d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:34 am 7/11/99 EST, John Abbott wrote: >Dear C. W. >In the indexing of 30 years of a private school's quarterly newsletter, must >I/should I enter _every_ name, even the mommies who drive a bunch of kids to >school, or the kindergartner who wins awards with his art work? >TIA John > John, Having devoted some considerable time to indexing a school magazine, running from 1875 to 1999 and continuing, my top-of-the-head response is "yes". So I agree with Elliot Linzer. I'd be happy to justify this offline, and discuss the issues, if you like. Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 07:16:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Indexing source code - billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, How do those of you who do back-of-the book indexing of computer manuals handle long source code sections when it comes to billing. I'm more used to working with embedded indexes, and have just run in to this problem. I didn't actually index the source code contents, except insofar as introductory material and text discussions led me to do so; and, of course, I did index the presence of the code. Some code sections ran ten pages or more and there were at least 100 pages of source code. I'm wondering if, ethically, I should count those pages in my billing. Thanks, Diane http://www.dianebrenner.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:01:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sally Klingener Subject: Re: Indented format; chronological order In-Reply-To: <00b101bf2abd$50ea9680$0d42b6d1@iwillp3450> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dan Connolly said: At 09:18 AM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote: >I've been asked to provide an index for a history book that will be in >indented format, but with chronological order for subentries. > >I've seen chronological order in run-in format, but not in indented format. >Anyone have experience with how this will look and whether I should >recommend run-in format if they definately want to keep chrono order? > >Dan I'm doing such a format for the author/subject part of a cumulative index for a scientific journal. The author entries include the title and locator of the article as a subentry and are arranged in chronological order (similar to the arrangement in an academic's curriculum vitae). Using Macrex I insert a sorting, but non-printing date code preceding each title. The date is the year followed by an "a". When I see a second article in the same year I change the "a" to "b". Besides chronological order, if more than one article is in the same year, I use page number order, so the sorting code has to be monitored. The keyword, or macro, feature makes it easy to enter. The indented format is needed in this case for legibility as well as to mimic standard academic practice. Sally --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alice G. Klingener email: skling@oitunix.oit.umass.edu Biology Department sally@bio.umass.edu 221 Morrill Science Center tele: (413) 577-4560 University of Massachusetts fax: (413) 545-3243 Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:02:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Bill-expressions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi all. I feel like I'm really behind the 8-ball here. I must have missed something big time because I'm not real familiar with what's going on here with this thread. Could somebody fill me in? TIA. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:56:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Hourly Rate Thank You MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, everyone, for your many thoughtful responses to my question about $15 hourly rates. I feel as though I could write a long article about the many aspects of the issue. What was most helpful was confirmation from all of you that these rates are as unrealistic as I thought they were. The outcome of this particular situation was that the client agreed to $3.25/page (a fair amount for this book). I suspect that the willingness came after other indexers declined the $15. I think it it important that we tell clients when the rate is unacceptable and not just tell them we are busy. One of you asked about the name of the publisher. I do not want to name publishers because I want to be able to write candidly about client problems on Index-L. I look forward to meeting many of you at the ASI national conference in New Mexico in May. Many of your names are so familiar I feel I already know you. E-mail is great, but nothing beats in-person conversation. With appreciation for all of your help, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:44:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF2B9A.ECD6DB48" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2B9A.ECD6DB48 Content-Type: text/plain Editors are usually just trying to dodge corporate bullets coming through their cramped cubbies, and probably assume that someone who works at home in his or her own business is well-off enough not to have to put up with the stress the editor has. After all, freelancers work on only one book at a time, can take advantage of shopping other than at lunch or after six, don't have to pay babysitters, and take time out to romp with the dog and pet the cat. Really, don't we all think all auto mechanics have yachts off the Keys, and even cab drivers are amassing small fortunes under their beds in a glass jar, with which they are planning trips to Monte Carlo? > ---------- > From: Willa MacAllen > Reply To: Indexer's Discussion Group > Sent: Tuesday, November 9, 1999 7:50 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? > > At 02:00 PM 11/9/99 -0800, Julie Shawvan wrote: > >Even though many of the editors who offer us $15 an hour have no power or > >inclination to change the situation, I think it is worth taking a few > >moments to educate them. They may look at that $15 figure, do a quick > mental > >calculation, and conclude that we are earning $30,000 a year. > > Hi All: > > Are editors really thinking about what we, as a profession, might make on > a > yearly basis, or what they have to work with in terms of a budget for the > specific book? Isn't it the budget that an editor/author has to work with > that determines what we as indexers get paid? > > Willa (who is discouraged because I said no to a low-paying job and > someone > else took it 2 days later.....) > > Willa MacAllen > Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research > MacAllen's Information Services > Brighton, MA > ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2B9A.ECD6DB48 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: Hourly Rate?

Editors are usually = just trying to dodge corporate bullets coming through their cramped = cubbies, and probably assume that someone who works at home in his or = her own business is well-off enough not to have to put up with the = stress the editor has.  After all, freelancers work on only one = book at a time, can take advantage of shopping other than at lunch or = after six, don't have to pay babysitters, and take time out to romp = with the dog and pet the cat.  Really, don't we all think all auto = mechanics have yachts off the Keys, and even cab drivers are amassing = small fortunes under their beds in a glass jar, with which they are = planning trips to Monte Carlo?

----------
From:   Willa MacAllen
Reply To: =       Indexer's = Discussion Group
Sent:   Tuesday, November 9, 1999 7:50 PM
To:     = INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: =        Re: = Hourly Rate?

At 02:00 PM 11/9/99 -0800, Julie = Shawvan wrote:
>Even though many of the = editors who offer us $15 an hour have no power or
>inclination to change the = situation, I think it is worth taking a few
>moments to educate them. = They may look at that $15 figure, do a quick mental
>calculation, and conclude = that we are earning $30,000 a year.

Hi All:

Are editors really thinking = about what we, as a profession, might make on a
yearly basis, or what they have = to work with in terms of a budget for the
specific book?  Isn't it = the budget that an editor/author has to work with
that determines what we as = indexers get paid?

Willa (who is discouraged = because I said no to a low-paying job and someone
else took it 2 days = later.....)

Willa MacAllen
Indexing, Proofreading, = Editing, Research
MacAllen's Information = Services
Brighton, MA

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF2B9A.ECD6DB48-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:43:54 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: NatSpeak BM-III+ on Professional & Suites only In-Reply-To: <199911070508.AAA07474@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Re: So now my question is does the Preferred for the >Pentium III install Best Match III Plus? Do you know? Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: My post yesterday MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, all. Apparently my post yesterday caused some offense, and I want to apologize. In pointing out that the reply function appears to be list-configured, not client/software configured, I hoped to clear up an apparent misconception. To be clear that I wasn't targeting Charlotte or anyone else, I should have added that I think the listowners of index-l do a wonderful job, and--if I'm correct about configuration--it's certainly their option to administer the list as they choose. Even if I embarrass myself occasionally and send something to the list that I meant to send to an individual, I consider that small price to pay for being part of this list. Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Willa MacAllen [mailto:macallen@MINDSPRING.COM] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 6:51 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Hourly Rate? At 02:00 PM 11/9/99 -0800, Julie Shawvan wrote: >Even though many of the editors who offer us $15 an hour have no power or >inclination to change the situation, I think it is worth taking a few >moments to educate them. They may look at that $15 figure, do a quick mental >calculation, and conclude that we are earning $30,000 a year. Hi All: Are editors really thinking about what we, as a profession, might make on a yearly basis, or what they have to work with in terms of a budget for the specific book? Isn't it the budget that an editor/author has to work with that determines what we as indexers get paid? Willa (who is discouraged because I said no to a low-paying job and someone else took it 2 days later.....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:25:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Indexing source code - billing question In-Reply-To: <199911101221.HAA29358@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How do those of you who do back-of-the book indexing of computer manuals > handle long source code sections when it comes to billing. I bill for them. As a rule, I present a simple bill for all pages submitted to me. I do have one client who will not pay for blank separator pages between chapters and I reluctantly agree. However, my feeling is that once you start splitting hairs over what constitutes a billable page, you are on a slippery slope to chaos. If you are going to omit pages with source code, how about multi-page tables where several pages generate only one or two index entries? How about a half page of code here and a half page there? Should non-billable pages be cumulative? And so it goes. The other side of the coin is that if the client wants to pay less (or nothing) for easy pages, then it's only fair that they pay more for difficult pages. And who wants to start deciding levels of difficulty on a page-by-page basis? Far better to realize that my page rate reflects an average of some easy pages and some difficult ones and let it go at that. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:48:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melissa Moore <55742@PEACHNET.CAMPUSCWIX.NET> Subject: Ready to get started Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Everybody: I'm new and do not post much. I sent in my payment for the USDA course yesterday and am looking forward to the work. Since I have other income, my attitude is to learn, get comfortable with my abilities, and start the calls. I also joined ASI a few days ago. This may sound like a silly question. I read that indexers enjoy crossword puzzles and "Jeopardy." I was wondering if any of you enjoy Jumble and Logic. I keep books of these for weekends. The lady at the bookstore orders the Logic books only for me. She says no one else buys them! :) Anyway, does anyone else out there enjoy these activties? Dan, I want to thank. Your exercises are wonderful. I am learning so much from the members' messages to one another on specific topics. This work really fascinates me. Sorry to ramble on here. Just wanted to let everyone know you'll be having one more student!! :) Regards, Melissa PS Even though I am new, do you recommend I attend the meeting in May? I live in Georgia but transportation would not be a problem, esp. when one has a sister with many many many (!) frequent flyer miles. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:03:29 -0800 Reply-To: woolstons@earthlink.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Woolston Subject: Re: Rates (and other mysteries. . .) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Willa (who is discouraged because I said no to a low-paying job and someone > else took it 2 days later.....) How in the world do you find out if another indexer has taken a specific job? I am having plenty of trouble just finding jobs that are available :) Sincerely, how much contact do seasoned indexers have with the project editor? For me it's just a call asking if I'll take the book, another call or e-mail if I have big-time queries, and a followup call to make sure the file opened and the index is what they expected. Maybe one of the reasons that I'm not working this week is that I'm not communicative enough. How often should I be calling and chatting? I sure hope that workflow spurts and silences are normal during the first year of freelancing. Blythe Woolston woolstons@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:43:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Another Very Positive Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Monday evening, I was in a position to receive on many indexers' behalf the nicest compliment! At the RMBPA (Rocky Mountain Book Publisher's Association) Conference in Portland, OR, Alan Bernhard (the RMBPA Executive Director) made a point of how pleased he was that the ASI was exhibiting at the conference. He made some quite pertinent comments about how appropriate & useful our presence was, and he hopes we (both indexers in general and the ASI specifically) will continue having a visible presence at future RMBPA conferences. We also got a lot of very cheering feedback from conference attendees and our fellow vendors. Some people stopped by our table to find out what indexers do, and their reactions were positive. Others stopped by to tell us "anecdotes of appreciation" for indexers they'd worked with! Many great thanks to all (ASI members and others) who laid the groundwork and did the work of getting us to this conference! :-) RAH P.S. From the conference program: "RMBPA is ... dedicated to the education of present and future publishers and the advancement of the book industry ..." Mostly, their members are mid-sized publishing companies in the USA and Canada. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:00:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Indexing source code - billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diane Brenner is indexing computer manuals which contain lots of source code which is nonindexable. The question is, how to bill for the work. My advice for this problem is the same as my advice for many of the problems raised here: talk to the editor who assigned the job to you. This problem exists because you are billing by the page, a very common practice, looking at the many threads regarding billing that we see in INDEX-L. This is the same problem as we have when we index heavily illustrated books where only a brief caption gets indexed. The editor probably has in mind a budget figure for the index. If including the pages which contain only source code keeps your invoice within budget, it is not a problem. Don't lose any sleep over it. It is like being paid for the blank pages between chapters or the pages containing end notes when you are not indexing the end notes. These pages balance out the pages with 30 or 40 indexable items on them. My preference is to negotiate a job rate before I agree to indexing the book or manual. Lots of factors go into determining the job rate: the number of pages in the book, the number of lines available for the index or the expected length of the index, the subject matter, the depth of the material, the deadline, etc. Once a job rate is set, unless the book is totally misrepresented, that figure is final. Both parties know what the final invoice will look like. There can be no squabbling about nonindexable pages or padding the bill. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:42:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Grimes, Keith" Subject: Capitalization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello to everyone. This is my first post to INDEX-L and I'm a little nervous. I've been lurking for a few weeks but I've got a question that I need an answer to. I know you have answers for me. I'm a technical writer working for a robotics company, FANUC Robotics (no, not Fa-NOOK - FAN-ic). I'm not a professional indexer, but I'm quite interested in becoming one on a freelance basis. I first became interested in indexing when I discovered that there are real-live people out there who do real-live indexing as a profession. We do our own indexes here, and admittedly, are not very good at it. I expressed an interest in improving our indexes, and voila, I'm now leading the charge. I wanted to start by adding a section on indexing conventions to our in-house style guide. And one of my first questions is when to capitalize our proprietary software feature names. For example, in our painting division, the developers have created a new software feature called Collision Guard, a feature that the robot uses to avoid collisions with objects in the work cell. Should Collision Guard be capitalized (not only in the index, but in the manual section itself) or should it be lower case? My inclination is to capitalize it; my editor says lower case, but is somewhat soft in her stance. The developer, of course, thinks it should be capped. I can hear the gasps now. Is this the first time this question has come up? The answer: no. Our editor says lower case, but because she has faced so much opposition, she wavers. Is there an ultimate truth to this question out there? I know that with your help, we can finally put this baby to bed. Looking forward to mixing it up with all of you. Thanks, Keith. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:45:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Capitalization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd capitalize it as its the name of a specific product, e.g. Microsoft Word, Adobe Acrobat: FANUC Collision Guard The only reason I wouldn't capitalize it is if instead of being a specific product, there was a larger category of "collision guards" with numerous subsets of materials/features/products etc. that belong to it, then I would list, say: collision guards FANUC Stay Away [or Stay Away (FANUC)] padding Xarrest etc. Diane "Grimes, Keith" wrote: > Hello to everyone. > > This is my first post to INDEX-L and I'm a little nervous. I've been > lurking for a few weeks but I've got a question that I need an answer to. I > know you have answers for me. > > I'm a technical writer working for a robotics company, FANUC Robotics (no, > not Fa-NOOK - FAN-ic). I'm not a professional indexer, but I'm quite > interested in becoming one on a freelance basis. I first became interested > in indexing when I discovered that there are real-live people out there who > do real-live indexing as a profession. We do our own indexes here, and > admittedly, are not very good at it. I expressed an interest in improving > our indexes, and voila, I'm now leading the charge. > > I wanted to start by adding a section on indexing conventions to our > in-house style guide. And one of my first questions is when to capitalize > our proprietary software feature names. For example, in our painting > division, the developers have created a new software feature called > Collision Guard, a feature that the robot uses to avoid collisions with > objects in the work cell. Should Collision Guard be capitalized (not only > in the index, but in the manual section itself) or should it be lower case? > My inclination is to capitalize it; my editor says lower case, but is > somewhat soft in her stance. The developer, of course, thinks it should be > capped. > > I can hear the gasps now. Is this the first time this question has come up? > The answer: no. Our editor says lower case, but because she has faced so > much opposition, she wavers. Is there an ultimate truth to this question > out there? I know that with your help, we can finally put this baby to bed. > > Looking forward to mixing it up with all of you. > > Thanks, > Keith. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:41:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: A Very Positive Experience In-Reply-To: <199911100509.AAA00013@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks, Elliot, for sharing that wonderful story. What a rush that must have been. Mary, thanks for sharing your story, too. I've rarely met any of my authors f2f, but I've had some very positive experiences with authors, who generally do seem to appreciate the work we do. I know that a lot of indexers hate to work directly with authors, but I've had so many more positive experiences than negative ones that I don't shy away from it at all. When I went to the ASI conference in Seattle, a couple of other indexers and I wandered into a chic artglass type of store. It carried a lot of pieces by Dale Chihuly, whose studio is in Seattle. There on a table was Chihuly's book, which I had indexed. The other indexers I was with told the salesman that I had indexed the book. Much to my surprise and delight, the salesman started gushing about how important indexes are, would I sign the desk copy, etc. He treated me like a celebrity! It was way fun! I keep hoping that the local bookstore here will bring one of my authors in for a book party, but it's never happened yet. Maybe I should give the store manager a list of the books I've indexed. ;-) I could be my own publicist. Hm, at the very least, maybe I should inquire about how they decide who to bring in. Seriously, though, I think that a collection of very positive stories, like Elliot's, would make a great piece for Key Words. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:41:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Indented format; chronological order In-Reply-To: <199911100509.AAA00013@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I've been asked to provide an index for a history book that will be in >indented format, but with chronological order for subentries. > >I've seen chronological order in run-in format, but not in indented format. >Anyone have experience with how this will look and whether I should >recommend run-in format if they definately want to keep chrono order? > I think it looks fine; I wouldn't see any need to switch to run-in. Although I haven't used chrono order often, I have used it for certain entries. For example, I once used it for a list of labor strikes that were named by the year in which they occurred. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:41:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: double posting entries In-Reply-To: <199911100509.AAA00013@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >federal taxes, 10-12, 15 >income taxes, 25 >social security taxes, 12, 18 >state taxes, 22 >taxes > federal, 10-12 > social security, 12 > state, 9-10, 25 >unemployment taxes, 20, 27 > >Obviously, if I had a better memory of how I post things it would help. >Failing that, does anyone have any good tricks? I am considering plugging in >_see_ references for every alternative term I can think of as soon as I post >a topic in order to steer myself to one-and-only-one entry term. I can >always convert the _see_ entries to double posts later, if needed. > >Any ideas on how it is best to enter a term initially -- as a main (federal >taxes) or a sub-entry (taxes/ federal)? I lean toward the latter since it >groups together related stuff. Or at least it does in this example. 8-/ Ann, I often end up with a mishmash like you describe. Here are some tricks that I use: 1. When I become aware that a particular word appears often in my index (whether that happens during keying in or during editing), I do a search (I use Cindex) for the word, so that I can see all the relevant entries at once. Because I know that I'll be using that technique, I often opt to list the entries initially as "federal taxes," "income taxes," etc., because I know I can decide later whether to bring them all together and create a new main heading. Or use a "see" reference. 2. Another tricky situation is when the author uses two different terms for the same thing. Rather than deal with that while I'm keying in, I usually pick one of the terms and add the alternate term in hidden text. If I decide not to use the second one, I can just leave it there, because the hidden text doesn't show in the rtf file. Or I can then use that term to create a "see" reference. 3. Another way I use the search function of Cindex (I imagine the same is true for Macrex and Sky) is to search for several related terms at once, e.g., women OR men OR gender Then I get to see related entries in one window, and it's easier to assess whether the locators should match. 4. And finally, when I make an entry that I think I'll want doubleposted, I'll often just add "dp" in hidden text, so I can doublepost during the editing stage, rather than have to remember all the ways I entered the term and add locators to two different entries over and over again. Rather than placing these kinds of notes to myself at the beginning of the index, I place them right within the relevant entries and then do a search for all the hidden text at once, or sometimes all hidden text of a certain type. For example, I might search for "{dp" to collect together all the entries I want to flip. I love the "hidden text" feature, because you can leave *all* your notes to yourself in the index and not do the extra work of deleting them. Generally speaking, I try to use the power of my indexing software and rely less on memory. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:06:05 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: Capitalization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one program has a special feature called 'Collision Guard' I look on this as a proper name and would capitalise it. If may programs have them, they would be 'collision guards' in my index. This is really a style issue for writing before indexing, though, so I guess my other answer would be to follow the usage in the text. Glenda. > I wanted to start by adding a section on indexing conventions to our > in-house style guide. And one of my first questions is when to capitalize > our proprietary software feature names. For example, in our painting > division, the developers have created a new software feature called > Collision Guard, a feature that the robot uses to avoid collisions with > objects in the work cell. Should Collision Guard be capitalized (not only > in the index, but in the manual section itself) or should it be lower case? > My inclination is to capitalize it; my editor says lower case, but is > somewhat soft in her stance. The developer, of course, thinks it should be > capped. > > I can hear the gasps now. Is this the first time this question has come up? > The answer: no. Our editor says lower case, but because she has faced so > much opposition, she wavers. Is there an ultimate truth to this question > out there? I know that with your help, we can finally put this baby to bed. > > Looking forward to mixing it up with all of you. > > Thanks, > Keith. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:37:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Capitalization question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keith: Great job! If you need any help, let me know. I've bought a few of Radio Shack's robotic arms and thought I'd have time to connect them to a computer. Never happened, but I love robotics and have written "the computer documentation that worked" as a beta test site of library automation software. If your product is trademarked, or if you feel it will be trademarked, or if you want to imply that it will be trademarked, I'd definitely capitalize. If it's "just another feature," your editor is probably correct. Max Dalrymple, MLS mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: Grimes, Keith To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 2:13 PM Subject: Capitalization question >Hello to everyone. > >This is my first post to INDEX-L and I'm a little nervous. I've been >lurking for a few weeks but I've got a question that I need an answer to. I >know you have answers for me. > >I'm a technical writer working for a robotics company, FANUC Robotics (no, >not Fa-NOOK - FAN-ic). I'm not a professional indexer, but I'm quite >interested in becoming one on a freelance basis. I first became interested >in indexing when I discovered that there are real-live people out there who >do real-live indexing as a profession. We do our own indexes here, and >admittedly, are not very good at it. I expressed an interest in improving >our indexes, and voila, I'm now leading the charge. > >I wanted to start by adding a section on indexing conventions to our >in-house style guide. And one of my first questions is when to capitalize >our proprietary software feature names. For example, in our painting >division, the developers have created a new software feature called >Collision Guard, a feature that the robot uses to avoid collisions with >objects in the work cell. Should Collision Guard be capitalized (not only >in the index, but in the manual section itself) or should it be lower case? >My inclination is to capitalize it; my editor says lower case, but is >somewhat soft in her stance. The developer, of course, thinks it should be >capped. > >I can hear the gasps now. Is this the first time this question has come up? >The answer: no. Our editor says lower case, but because she has faced so >much opposition, she wavers. Is there an ultimate truth to this question >out there? I know that with your help, we can finally put this baby to bed. > >Looking forward to mixing it up with all of you. > >Thanks, >Keith. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:12:19 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elspeth Pope Subject: [Fwd: Request for Information] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------33E19EB8822E7686858DC465" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------33E19EB8822E7686858DC465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This came up on my email this morning but I have no knowledge of this subject. Rather than just delete it, I will send it forth and ask you to reply to the sender if you can help. -- Elspeth Pope --------------33E19EB8822E7686858DC465 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from rs6a.wln.com (rs6a.wln.com [192.156.252.2]) by emu.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18287 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from popper1.vphos.net [207.102.129.202] (HELO service-growth.com) by rs6a.wln.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) via SMTP id for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:07:54 -0800 Received: from ws14 ([207.194.144.10]) by popper1.vphos.net ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:07:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000c01bf2b95$e9cfe2a0$0a90c2cf@ws14> Reply-To: "Pema Doma" From: "Pema Doma" To: Subject: Request for Information Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:08:53 -0800 Organization: Service-Growth Consultants MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Dear Elspeth Pope: I am writing to request for information on the "outsourcing" of indexing and abstracting services for a handbook on "back office" operations (also called outsourcing) that the International Trade Centre UNCTAD/WTO (Geneva) is preparing. I am wondering if you would have any information on the firms (in Canada, USA) that outsource their indexing and abstracting functions whether to local/national firms or to international firms. Any contact information would be very helpful. As well, I am wondering if there are any publications available on this subject that I could look at. I would appreciate any help or any suggestions as to who I might contact to obtain this information. I look forward to your response. Thank you. Sincerely, Pema Doma Service-Growth Consultants Inc. Vancouver, B.C., Canada Tel: (604) 684-8281 Fax: (604) 684-8283 E-mail: pema@service-growth.com --------------33E19EB8822E7686858DC465-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:30:24 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Billing question Diane wrote: I didn't actually index the source code contents, except insofar as introductory material and text discussions led me to do so; and, of course, I did index the presence of the code. Some code sections ran ten pages or more and there were at least 100 pages of source code. I'm wondering if, ethically, I should count those pages in my billing. To show my take on this question, allow me to use some analogies: You take your car in to get it tuned, and when the mechanic gives you the bill he says "I didn't have to change the belts, but I charged you for it." You bring your computer in to the shop because the hard drive is acting funny. When the technician hands you the bill he says "It was the CD-ROM, not the hard drive, but I charged you for a new hard drive anyway." You finish an index and send it off to the editor with a note: "I didn't have to index some of the pages because they were blanks, non-indexable end notes, or 99% source code, but I charged you for it." How do you like to be treated? "Do unto others...." ( And what constitutes a billable page? Well, let's start with something that has words printed on it.) - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:38:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: quick question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cognoscenti-- Given a cross-reference, such as garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer what do you call the index entry it points to (such as "sanitation engineer")? Is it a locator? To avoid spontaneous napping among fellow list members, you may choose to reply directly to me. :) Thank you! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:44:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, yes. Per page, billable page, and indexable page. ......... The answer to these billing questions is that it is extremely important to be very clear, going into your job, that you and your client are in agreement, and know what you will bill for. There is no "right way". It is between client and freelancer. There are some publishers (clients) who pay quite literally "per page", and who don't count up blanks, bibliography pages, etc. They will pay you for all pages, inclusive, and that's that. Their per-page rate is geared to that. Others pay per indexable page. Some are not distressed by the presence of many illustrations, or by source code. Others are. Networking with others in your specific area is the best way to find out what the norm is in your "corner" of the industry, if there is one. But the bottom line is to have good communication between yourself as indexer and the client, so you are both in agreement. That way, it isn't just your call as freelancer, wondering how the client will handle your invoice. I have to say, I resented the tone of Susan's posting. And I didn't find the analogies to be analogous either. There is no cat in the bag when the final invoice is handed over. Indexers are NOT trying to cheat clients with these differing ways of counting pages. It is an open agreement between client and freelancer. If communication is open and an agreement is made, that is all it takes. A publisher can net out the same with a lower rate per page, paying for inclusive pages, AND a higher rate per indexable page, with exclusions specified. There is more than one way to arrive at a final payment figure for indexing, and there is no subterfuge or lack of ethics in one or the other. We as freelancers work in an open marketplace. A client has the right to agree or disagree, when open discussion takes places when a job is offered. There is no question of "do unto others......" The implication of dishonesty here is unfortunate, especially from a fellow indexer on an open list. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: quick question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also call this the target of the cross reference or xref target. You could use xref destination too or referenced heading. Of course, I'm not an indexer. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: David M. Brown To: Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 12:38 AM Subject: quick question > Cognoscenti-- > > Given a cross-reference, such as > > garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer > > what do you call the index entry it points to (such as > "sanitation engineer")? > > Is it a locator? > > To avoid spontaneous napping among fellow list members, > you may choose to reply directly to me. :) > > Thank you! > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > > Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! > > > - > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:34:00 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Rates (and other mysteries. . .) In-Reply-To: <199911110506.AAA14513@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sincerely, how much contact do seasoned indexers have with the project >editor? For me it's just a call asking if I'll take the book, another >call or e-mail if I have big-time queries, and a followup call to make >sure the file opened and the index is what they expected. >Maybe one of the reasons that I'm not working this week is that I'm not >communicative enough. How often should I be calling and chatting? I really only chat with my editors when there's a reason to be talking to them anyway (about something else). I take my cue from them; if they start to chat, I chat right back. Editors are very busy, so I would certainly never call merely to chat. On most jobs, my experience is similar to what you describe: initial call, occasional contact midstream to clear up questions, turn in the job (they e-mail me if they can't open the file). Believe it or not, though, you can get to know them over time. The editors at one press, in particular, are now sort of following my ballroom competitions, wishing me luck, asking me how I did, etc. I love it! BTW, when you're traveling, don't pass up the opportunity to get together with your editors if you're going to be in their vicinity. I finally had a chance to do this on my last trip to California, and it was fabulous. Some of it was friendly, getting-to-know-you-better stuff, but we also talked about indexing, authors, the freelance life, the scholarly SIG, and so on. A very positive experience. *And* my accountant tells me I can deduct the trip because of that meeting. > >I sure hope that workflow spurts and silences are normal during the >first year of freelancing. > Very normal. Very few of us can say we had continuous work during our first or even our second year. After all, your client base is still pretty small in the beginning. You can use the silences as a time to do some marketing, some professional development, some networking with other indexers, etc. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: Billing question Comments: To: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, I actually pride myself on my honesty-- which is why I asked the question in the first place. I don't think this is so cut and dry, though. With embedded indexing -- which, as I've said, I've done alot of -- you do charge for code because you have to insert entries. Also, as someone else pointed out, you don't get to charge extra for more difficult pages -- to use your anaology -- the auto mechanic who charges the same rate for an oil change and a new transmission would be in trouble. Here we don't have the same luxury -- so a page with a table that has, say, twenty-thirty entries, is typically billed the same as a page with three or four. In these books there are typiocally a great many entries in the pages preceding the code because the contents of the code and their ramifications are often discussed in detail. Thanks for your input. Diane susanhernandez@JUNO.COM wrote: > Diane wrote: > > > I didn't actually index the source code contents, except insofar as > introductory material and text discussions led me to do so; and, of > course, I did index the presence of the code. Some code sections ran ten > pages or more and there were at least 100 pages of source code. I'm > wondering if, ethically, I should count those pages in my billing. > > To show my take on this question, allow me to use some analogies: > > You take your car in to get it tuned, and when the mechanic gives you > the bill he says "I didn't have to change the belts, but I charged you > for it." > > You bring your computer in to the shop because the hard drive is > acting funny. When the technician hands you the bill he says "It was the > CD-ROM, not the hard drive, but I charged you for a new hard drive > anyway." > > You finish an index and send it off to the editor with a note: "I > didn't have to index some of the pages because they were blanks, > non-indexable end notes, or 99% source code, but I charged you for it." > > How do you like to be treated? "Do unto others...." > > ( And what constitutes a billable page? Well, let's start with > something that has words printed on it.) > > - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:01:51 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Billing question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" When I begin a project I number each page. This gives me the first go at the indexable page count since I tally all blank pages, to be subtracted from total page count. During the project I may encounter a repetitive feature, such as an introductory page to each chapter. In a case like that, I also subtract their number from the total. After that, I use the advice given to me by my mentor: if you have to read the page, it is indexable. For that reason, I don't have any qualms about charging for several successive pages of endnotes that don't yield any material for the index. I had to read the pages to determine that. In the case cited, I'm not sure, but I think I probably would not charge for pages of code. If I could very quickly scan and see that the next five pages were nothing but code, I think I would exclude them from the indexable page count. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:15:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rhodes, Cathy" Subject: Re: quick question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I think that would be "preferred term" or "main entry". Cathy Rhodes *************************************** Catherine Rhodes, M.L.I.S. Reference/Instruction Librarian Briscoe Library University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio 7703 Floyd Curl Drive San Antonio, TX 78229-3900 telephone: (210)567-2400 fax: (210)567-2490 mailto:rhodesc@uthscsa.edu > -----Original Message----- > From: David M. Brown [mailto:dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 11:38 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: quick question > > > Cognoscenti-- > > Given a cross-reference, such as > > garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer > > what do you call the index entry it points to (such as > "sanitation engineer")? > > Is it a locator? > > To avoid spontaneous napping among fellow list members, > you may choose to reply directly to me. :) > > Thank you! > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > > Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! > > > - > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: Elizabeth Felicetti Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Felicetti Subject: Publisher axed my subentries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF2C28.E9991160" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF2C28.E9991160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been reading this list with interest for weeks. I am brand new to = indexing; I am only on lesson 3 in the USDA course, but I did finish = Susan Holbert's video course. Anyway, a friend of mine is publishing her = first book, and asked me to index it. I was thrilled at the opportunity, = but she has eliminated almost all of my subentries. When sending out = letters to publishers, should I not mention that I did complete one = index, or should I send it (the ruined index) with a note that says = "This was heavily edited and I would not just list nine locators without = subentries...", or...? Any suggestions? I would be so grateful. Elizabeth Felicetti freelance literary services (757) 638-4948 (757) 638-4947 (fax) ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF2C28.E9991160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have been reading this list with = interest for=20 weeks. I am brand new to indexing; I am only on lesson 3 in the USDA = course, but=20 I did finish Susan Holbert's video course. Anyway, a friend of mine is=20 publishing her first book, and asked me to index it. I was thrilled at = the=20 opportunity, but she has eliminated almost all of my subentries. When = sending=20 out letters to publishers, should I not mention that I did complete one = index,=20 or should I send it (the ruined index) with a note that says "This was = heavily=20 edited and I would not just list nine locators without subentries...", = or...?=20 Any suggestions? I would be so grateful.
 
Elizabeth Felicetti
freelance = literary=20 services
(757) 638-4948
(757) 638-4947 = (fax)
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF2C28.E9991160-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: quick question In-Reply-To: <003801bf2c0c$23b1fc80$97ba36cf@bna.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cognoscenti, once again -- Given a cross-reference, such as garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer and given that the referenced heading "sanitation engineer" is called the "target" of the cross-reference, what, if anything, is the main heading "garbage man" called? Michael At 01:15 AM 11/11/99 -0500, David K. Ream wrote: > >I also call this the target of the cross reference or xref target. You could >use xref destination too or referenced heading. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: David M. Brown >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 12:38 AM >Subject: quick question > > >> Cognoscenti-- >> >> Given a cross-reference, such as >> >> garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer >> >> what do you call the index entry it points to (such as >> "sanitation engineer")? Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:31:18 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Counting pages (was Billing question) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like Craig, I determine the number of indexable pages when I receive the proofs. This is part of my vetting process (I got the idea from an article Maria Coughlin wrote in KeyWords several years ago, just as I was starting out - thanks, Maria!) I check for missing pages, badly-copied pages, etc. As I go through the proofs page by page, I keep a pen and a piece of paper next to me, and write down the page ranges as I go. Sometimes this ends up being 1-284 (if there are no blank pages), but for other books I list the page ranges. I then calculate the number of indexable pages, and add endnote pages later if applicable. I'm usually fairly generous with counting endnote pages, meaning I don't count them unless I index something on them. Sometimes it is easy to tell with a glance that all of the endnotes on a page are simply bibliographical references. But I do agree that it is more time-consuming to index a book with some substantive endnotes, because I am constantly turning to the notes as I read a chapter to see if there is substantive information in them. (I find it easier to make notes on the topics for the endnotes if I'm looking at them at the same time as the text to which they refer. I read and mark the proofs before entering terms in the computer.) All that said, I do have one client who pays for all pages, including front and back matter and blank pages (at a lower rate than I would normally accept). I still go through the vetting process, just without writing down the page ranges. Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:28:56 -0500 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: quick question In-Reply-To: <382A5648.20191E44@brown-inc.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi David, I would call it "the referenced entry" or maybe simply "the reference". As with Dave Ream, I'm not an indexer. I took a quick look at "Indexing Books", nothing jumped out at me. Happy Indexing! Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 350 Montgomery Circle Stephens City, VA 22655 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: (800) 776-0137 or (540) 869-6581 Fax: (540) 869-6581 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cognoscenti-- Given a cross-reference, such as garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer what do you call the index entry it points to (such as "sanitation engineer")? Is it a locator? To avoid spontaneous napping among fellow list members, you may choose to reply directly to me. :) Thank you! --David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:52:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Huerster, Robert" Subject: Meta tags I would like to hear from anyone who has hands-on experience indexing web pages with meta tags. (I know about sources of information like the Dublin Core, etc.). Thanks in advance. Bob Huerster, huerro@consumer.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:10:01 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Billing question > >We as freelancers work in an open marketplace. A client has the right >to >agree or disagree, when open discussion takes places when a job is >offered. >There is no question of "do unto others......" The implication of >dishonesty >here is unfortunate, especially from a fellow indexer on an open list. > Yes, it is an open list, an open forum. When someone posts to Index-L, they are, essentially, standing up in front of 800+ people to ask a question or make a statement. You have to be willing to get an answer you don't like hearing. A situation was given and a question asked; "is it ethical?" Three people answered. Two said "Yes, it is", one said "No, it isn't". By voicing their opinion, the two who said "yes" imply that anyone who says "no" is incorrect. And the person who said "no" (that would be me), has voiced her opinion that "yes" isn't always right. Of course you can charge for all inclusive pages if the editor says you can. But if you don't ask, I don't think you should. And, frankly, I don't agree that the blanks are there to even out the hard pages. The person asking the question hadn't asked the editor about it. She asked what she should do. I gave her my opinion in an open forum. - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:52:34 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << The person asking the question hadn't asked the editor about it. She asked what she should do. >> The best advice for the person who asked the question would be to go back to her editor and ask -- even at this point, after the fact. Then there are no ethical questions. If the communication is established and maintained, nobody will feel taken advantage of. It would have been better if the situation had been discussed and clarified before the fact. Since this didn't happen, then either go back and ask. OR not to bill for those pages. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:24:24 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Headley Subject: Re: Billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Christine Headley Janet Perlman wrote >The answer to these billing questions is that it is extremely important to be >very clear, going into your job, that you and your client are in agreement, >and know what you will bill for. There is no "right way". It is between >client and freelancer. (and a lot more good stuff that I snipped) I once sent in an invoice to a major publisher with the number of pages, and thus the final total, blank. When 'they' knew how many pages the book was going to have, they multiplied that number by the agreed page rate and paid me! (The page rate wasn't exactly impressive, so I assume they knew that there would be a lot of unindexable pages when they fixed the rate.) Best wishes Christine Christine Headley Copyeditor and Indexer Stroud, Glos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:37:12 -0800 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Publisher axed my subentries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF2C49.DBBB8E80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF2C49.DBBB8E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Send them your best work, the sort of thing they will get if they hire you. I'm sure a lot of indexes=20 get tinkered with after they are accepted and paid for. Such activity may be very irritating to the indexer, but it is something over which one has little control. In any case, mentioning what was done to your=20 index would only muddy the waters. I really doubt=20 that any potential client would be interested in this=20 unfortunate business. So, you aren't being dishonest with them by not telling them details that they probably will be indifferent to anyway. Nick Koenig =20 =20 I have been reading this list with interest for weeks. I am brand = new to indexing; I am only on lesson 3 in the USDA course, but I did = finish Susan Holbert's video course. Anyway, a friend of mine is = publishing her first book, and asked me to index it. I was thrilled at = the opportunity, but she has eliminated almost all of my subentries. = When sending out letters to publishers, should I not mention that I did = complete one index, or should I send it (the ruined index) with a note = that says "This was heavily edited and I would not just list nine = locators without subentries...", or...? Any suggestions? I would be so = grateful. =20 Elizabeth Felicetti freelance literary services (757) 638-4948 (757) 638-4947 (fax) ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF2C49.DBBB8E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Send them your best work, the sort = of thing=20 they
will get if = they hire=20 you.  I'm sure a lot of indexes
get tinkered with after they are accepted and=20 paid
for.  Such activity may be very irritating to = the=20 indexer,
but it is something over which one has little=20 control.
In any case, mentioning what was done to your =
index would only muddy the waters.  I really = doubt=20
that any potential client = would be=20 interested in this
unfortunate business.  = So, you aren't=20 being dishonest
with them by not telling them details that they=20 probably
will be indifferent to anyway.
 
Nick Koenig

 
I have been reading this list with = interest for=20 weeks. I am brand new to indexing; I am only on lesson 3 in the USDA = course,=20 but I did finish Susan Holbert's video course. Anyway, a friend of = mine is=20 publishing her first book, and asked me to index it. I was thrilled = at the=20 opportunity, but she has eliminated almost all of my subentries. = When=20 sending out letters to publishers, should I not mention that I did = complete=20 one index, or should I send it (the ruined index) with a note that = says=20 "This was heavily edited and I would not just list nine = locators=20 without subentries...", or...? Any suggestions? I would be so=20 grateful.
 
Elizabeth Felicetti
freelance = literary=20 services
(757) 638-4948
(757) 638-4947=20 (fax)
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01BF2C49.DBBB8E80-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:32:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where I can get hold of a medical thesaurus, dictionary or similar word list online? It would be a great help to me while I index a medical journal. I want to be sure I am using current, accepted terminology. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: double posting entries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to those who replied to my question. I am relieved to know that I am not the only one who runs into a problem here. As always, it is interesting to see the wide range of methods of handling this, which I believe depends upon both the type of material and the mind-workings of the particular indexer. I'll try some of the suggestions and see what works for my brain. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melanie Edwards wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get hold of a medical thesaurus, dictionary or > similar word list online? It would be a great help to me while I index a > medical journal. I want to be sure I am using current, accepted terminology. Here's one I've bookmarked, but I haven't used it yet so I can't critique it for you. Let us know what you think of it if you try to use it. Multilingual Glossary of medica l terms Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:20:24 -0500 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: P.S.Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's one I had in a separate folder in my bookmarks--you'll have to look around on the site a bit, but I'm sure what you're looking for is here somewhere. U.S. National Library of Medicine ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:19:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Lathrop, Sarah" Subject: Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Try this site; it has all kinds of online dictionaries: http://www.pacific-mall.com/dictnary/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: Melanie Edwards [mailto:Mgendx@AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 4:32 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: medical word list needed Does anyone know where I can get hold of a medical thesaurus, dictionary or similar word list online? It would be a great help to me while I index a medical journal. I want to be sure I am using current, accepted terminology. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:57:18 -0000 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: medical word list needed In-Reply-To: <382B3ECA.A7960BF7@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Melanie Edwards wrote: > > > Does anyone know where I can get hold of a medical thesaurus, dictionary > > or similar word list online? It would be a great help to me while I > > index a medical journal. I want to be sure I am using current, accepted > > terminology. See also: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh for Medical Subject Headings, but be prepared for long downloads if you use the material. It will at least be up to date, though it is more for literature searches than self-contained indexes. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:02:01 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Enrique Gildemeister Subject: Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Melanie, Try looking at the MeSH (Medical Subject Headings) list. This is a controlled vocabulary used for indexing and cataloging. This is not a medical word list per se but might be tangentially helpful. Go to: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/libserv.html Rick Gildemeister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:13:53 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Johnson or Carol De Boeck Subject: Re: P.S.Re: medical word list needed Comments: To: varney@mindspring.com Yes, what you want is MeSH (Medical Subject Headings) the National Library of Medicine's thesaurus of medical terms: it must represent the closest thing to a standard (Western) list. Peter Johnson ---------- > From: J Flenner > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: P.S.Re: medical word list needed > Date: November 11, 1999 2:20 PM > > Here's one I had in a separate folder in my bookmarks--you'll have to > look around on the site a bit, but I'm sure what you're looking for is > here somewhere. > > U.S. National Library of Medicine > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:55:22 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: function/functional words? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Greetings. I'm trying to search the archives on this topic, but to no avail so far. As I complete lesson 10 of the USDA course, I find that I'm averse to using function (or is it functional--I'm still a newbie on the terminology) words. For example, drainage water --alternatives (rather than "alternatives to") --salinity (rather than "salinity in") --treating This isn't a perfect example, so please don't critique. Here's the question: Please write with your feelings on function words? Do you like them? Not like them? Find that publishers always want them, etc.? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:54:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I posted this privately in answer to the original query, but based on the responses I'm seeing on the list, I'd better let y'all know about them. I consider these sites to be the gold standard as far as medical terminology is concerned (as they represent the thesaurus and indexing that goes into Index Medicus) (but of course, no one knows who I really am and whether my opinion is worth much . I've been a medical and scientific indexer for databases for the past ten years, if that helps). http://www.nlm.nih.gov/mesh/99MBrowser.html This is the official MeSH site, where you can search the MeSH tools and their chemical database. You don't need to download MeSH, you can search it over the Internet here. If you need help translating what you get, or can't figure out why you're not getting anything, feel free to ask me. I've been using this and PubMed for a few years now for my own indexing contracts. Also, please be aware that any minute now (really), it will be outdated as the new 2000 MeSH tools get phased in for use. Another great site is http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ This is the PubMed database. If you want to know how MeSH indexers may have indexed a particular term, I suggest typing in the term in the text box followed by this :[ti] The ti within the square brackets narrows the hits to only those articles with the preceding word in the title. Again, if you don't see the word itself in the indexing, it may be because it doesn't exist in the MeSH thesaurus and indexers have had to combine terms to describe the concept. There is also a MeSH browser associated with PubMed. It is looser than the official site, and will helpfully suggest permutations of your term if an exact match isn't in the database, but can't be use for MeSH indexing as the allowed qualifiers it provides can often be incorrect (trust me on this, I found out the hard way). S. Greenhouse greenhou@erols.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:15:35 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: quick question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In library cataloguing we called 'garbage man' the nonpreferred term, and 'sanitation engineer' the preferred term. There was another comparable pair, but I can't remember it now. Perhaps it was authorised term/nonauthorised term. In normal speech I call it 'the term which is used' which is not very precise, I must admit. I'd definitely not call it a locator, as a locator must refer to the final source, eg, a page in a book. Glenda. > Given a cross-reference, such as > > garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer > > what do you call the index entry it points to (such as > "sanitation engineer")? > > Is it a locator? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:13:44 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, I have just had confirmation that two one-day courses sponsored by AusSI on Web indexing with HTML Indexer will be running in Queensland this month. The whole 6 hours is mine (compared with UNSW where I teach 4 out of 6) so I will be doing more practical. I want to put in a bit about references. Rather than retype it, would you be happy for me to download the stuff from your website and use that? I see that integrated cross-references are in the pipeline. Do you have any idea when they might be ready? Cheers, Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:51:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: function/functional words? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 11/11/1999 5:55 PM Karen Field wrote (in part): >Here's the question: Please write with your feelings on function words? Do >you like them? Not like them? Find that publishers always want them, etc.? I think if you could take a poll you'd find a slight majority in favor of their omission. In my own case I've been trying to use them less. However, I contend there are instances in which they lend clarity that only a tortuous rewording would avoid. For instance: American Indians massacres by, 125-128 massacres of, 213-216 When you searched the archives did you use the key word "prepositions?" It seems to me that word has been used in discussions of function words. Also possibly "conjunctions." hth, Craig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:32:43 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Billing question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan, et al., Thanks. I though I was the only one here having a great ethical problem with charging for pages on which nothing appears. I never charge for blank pages. There is nothing possibly indexible on them. However, if there is anything on a page that is possibly indexible, like a line of type or a single illustration caption, then I have to read it and make my usual indexing decisions. I have indexed that page. So I charge for it. It's not a slippery slope. It's a simple yes/no decision. That's my take, anyway. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-11-10 21:37:58 EST, susanhernandez@juno.com writes: > You finish an index and send it off to the editor with a note: "I > didn't have to index some of the pages because they were blanks, > non-indexable end notes, or 99% source code, but I charged you for it." > > How do you like to be treated? "Do unto others...." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:47:16 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: medical word list needed In-Reply-To: <382B3ECA.A7960BF7@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Melanie Edwards wrote: > >> Does anyone know where I can get hold of a medical thesaurus, dictionary or >> similar word list online? It would be a great help to me while I index a >> medical journal. I want to be sure I am using current, accepted terminology. Found this one,tto, but haven't tried it yet, either. http://www.graylab.ac.uk/omd/ J. Naomi Linzer: Indexing Services POB 1341 459 Redway Drive Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org/ <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:53:06 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Snyder Subject: Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might also look at www.kcls.org/kcls/refsvcs.html It has a variety of references. For example, you can double-click on medical, and it lists a variety of medical references. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:58:51 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Snyder Subject: Re: P.S.Re: medical word list needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Speaking of MeSH, isn't there a workshop offered on the east coast that has to do with MeSH? Dawn Jettio@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:17:50 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a reminder, here's what I asked: > Given a cross-reference, such as > > garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer > > what do you call the index entry it points to (such as > "sanitation engineer")? > > Is it a locator? Here's what I got back: > I guess it is a locator, but since that word usually refers to page > or section numbers, I call it the "chosen term." > I would call it "the referenced entry" or maybe simply "the reference". > I think that would be "preferred term" or "main entry". > ... the referenced heading "sanitation engineer" is called the > "target" of the cross-reference > I also call this the target of the cross reference or xref target. > You could use xref destination too or referenced heading. > Of course, I'm not an indexer. > In library cataloguing, we called 'garbage man' the nonpreferred term, > and 'sanitation engineer' the preferred term. I'd definitely not call > it a locator... > I'd call "garbage man" the "lead-in term", and "sanitation engineer" > the "preferred term". So it looks like we can call them pretty much whatever we want! :) My sincere thanks to each of you who answered, and to Binghamton for supporting this unique forum! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:43:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Publisher axed my subentries In-Reply-To: <199911120504.AAA20053@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >When sending out = >letters to publishers, should I not mention that I did complete one = >index, or should I send it (the ruined index) with a note that says = >"This was heavily edited and I would not just list nine locators without = >subentries...", or...? Any suggestions? I would be so grateful. There's no reason you can't send the unedited version of the index. When I send samples, I never send the version that's actually in the book; I simply send the first two or three pages from the version of the index that I submitted. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:03:14 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: function/functional words? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen, After reading that medal-winning indexes tended to use less little words than others, we tried omitting them. However, in many cases we have added them back in, as they sometimes make things easier to read. I think yours are fine as they stand, however I would probably use 'alternatives to' as it is a bit less staccato. (I must say, I don't quite understand how or where you have an alternative, so perhaps seeing the text could clarify the decision). I have never had a comment from publishers, no matter what I have done, but it wouldn't hurt to ask new clients if they have a preference. Glenda. > Greetings. > > I'm trying to search the archives on this topic, but to no avail so far. > > As I complete lesson 10 of the USDA course, I find that I'm averse to using > function (or is it functional--I'm still a newbie on the terminology) words. > For example, > > drainage water > --alternatives (rather than "alternatives to") > --salinity (rather than "salinity in") > --treating > > This isn't a perfect example, so please don't critique. > > Here's the question: Please write with your feelings on function words? Do > you like them? Not like them? Find that publishers always want them, etc.? > > Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:47:42 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KnissB@AOL.COM Subject: Position Opening -PT Researcher/Job Developer - Boston Area Comments: cc: bkniss@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, As a past indexer, I am posting this job opportunity to the list as the skill-set required by this job opportunity is similar to that required for an indexer. I currently am the Director of Research and Job Development for Transition Solutions, an executive outplacement/career management firm in Wellesley, MA. I am seeking candidates for the following opportunity: Researcher/Job Developer - Part-time Summary: Sources job opportunities for specified caseload of executive level clients using the Internet and various database tools. May occasionally perform research on companies and their executives utilizing Lexis-Nexis via the Internet. Schedule: Average of 5-10 hours per week. This is a flexible opportunity. Location: Telecommuting opportunity where duties can be performed remotely if individual has a computer with Internet access. Candidate must live in the greater Boston area. Requirements: Bachelor's degree required. 1-2 years research related experience. Excellent computer and Internet skills required. The successful candidate must have a research orientation, strong attention to detail, a high degree of self-motivation, and the ability to work well under limited supervision in order to meet deadlines. Contact Info: Please email resume to bkniss@yahoo.com; telephone - 781-239-2304 or 508-881-1196. Thank you, Beth Kniss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:46:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: indexers of non-English materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The members of the Med.Sci SIG of ASI have had the first opportunity to reply to this, but Mr Kaim still needs to hear from more indexers who can index from another language into English. Please contact him directly. Mr Kaim is bidding on a project for a multinational company and needs to know if the resources are available to handle the work. The subject matter is generally medical/pharmaceutical with a little biotech possible. He wants to know if there are indexers who read other languages well enough to index the material into English. In other words, the index (and the typing) will be in English but the source material will be in other languages. He would like to hear from you if you are interested. It sounds like many languages are needed. (Asian, Middle Eastern, European, etc) The majority of the material will be in English with a more limited distribution of non-English language material. As a side note, he is also still (I forwarded that note a while ago) looking for an indexing manager (in house) I get the feeling that if you felt you could manage indexers from a distance he'd be interested in hearing from you too. Contact Ed Kaim directly at ekaim@kaim.com or fax him at 203-227-4509 ______Note extract follows___ I now have another question for you related to this database project. My client wishes to collect and index all literature in any language that pertains to any of the approximately 300 products they market globally. This is a major undertaking, of course, but what seems especially daunting is the need to index from a variety of languages without English translation. I wonder if you could give me some idea of the capabilities of your SIG's members to handle non-English literature. I would also be grateful for any suggestions you might have regarding supplementary or alternative contacts I might make in order to meet this need. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:02:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melanie Edwards Subject: medical wordlist thanks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a listserv! Thanks to all for the feedback. Melanie Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:46:02 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Request for Indexers of non-English materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I just got this note.. its an ammendment to the first announcement. Sharon _____Note follows____ Dear Sharon, I'm getting a number of responses from people who saw your message. All of the responses appear to relate to indexing from non-English articles. I realize this was what I emphasized in our last correspondence; but I wonder if your message indicated I needed ONLY indexing from non-English articles. In fact, the bulk of the articles (like 78%) will be in English, and most of the indexers I will need will be indexing only from English. So, if your message to the worldwide list you mentioned addressed my need for indexing only from foreign languages, perhaps you would do me the additional favor of posting an amendment indicating I am looking for indexers from English as well. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes In-Reply-To: <199911071400.JAA17661@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:01 AM 11/7/99 -0500, Kara Pekar wrote: >Barbara Roos wrote: >> I would save more space still by dropping the parentheses and the spaces >> between note numbers. A unit is created by not spacing; nn alerts the >> reader that there's more than one note number following. >> >> 287-288nn3,5,7,9, 292n15 > (>When note numbers are singular on the page, I agree that parentheses are >not really necessary, but I think they are helpful when notes are multiple >on a page or page range. I find > >287-288nn3,5,7,9 > >to be a little confusing, since the commas would usually indicate the end >of that locator. The parentheses serve to group the multiple notes >together. Therefore, if there are multiple notes on a page/page range, I >would use parentheses for all notes in the name of consistency. Kara: Now that you mention it I can see that not grouping multiple notes in annotated page numbers like the one above might be a little confusing, though not nearly as confusing for me as breaking up the locator by including spaces after the commas that separate the notes. Also, I agree that if we use parentheses to group multiple notes we should use them to enclose single notes too for the sake of consistency (even though they're not necessary and take up extra space in the index), but I prefer not to use parentheses to group multiple notes, not merely because they take up extra space but more because I think they unnecessarily lengthen the annotations in locators that are already quite long, and also because using them for multiple notes would necessitate using them for single notes as well. Thinking about all this I remembered that some publishers require that annotations such as "n" and "t" be italicized, and it occurred to me to try grouping multiple notes together without using parentheses by italicizing them along with the preceding "nn", as in 287-288_nn3,5,7,9_ This format may eliminate any need for parentheses by clearly distinguishing commas between note numbers from commas between locators; and more importantly, by grouping multiple notes together with the "nn"s preceding them and thereby distinguishing the annotations in toto from the unformatted page numbers they follow, this format may markedly improve the readability of annotated page numbers. > I also agree that the space after the nn isn't necessary in any case. >However, the example I gave uses the format (parentheses and a space after >nn) required by more than one of my publishers. In my experience house style requirements are not necessarily set in stone. They've usually been in place for awhile and may well include some provisions that have come to be more or less important than others. By obtaining and studying house style guidelines we can inquire about individual styles and find out which ones editors may be willing to bend according to our recommendations in order to improve index presentation. Thus, for example, if I have a good relationship with an editor I may be able to suggest that not including spaces after "nn"s or note numbers might make annotated page numbers more readable and thereby initiate a small but significant improvement in the practice of indexing. Thereafter who knows? If the above idea about grouping multiple note numbers with italics instead of parentheses turns out to be any good maybe the time will come when I can suggest it. All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:37:42 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dawn Snyder Subject: Re: Request for Indexers of non-English materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon: Who should we contact to offer our services as an indexer? I remember seeing this post about the non-English indexing, but I didn't keep it because I'm not fluent in other languages. Dawn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:30:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is how I also handle them: italics and no parentheses. Marlene London Profindex@worldnet.att.net ---------- > From: Michael Brackney > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes > Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 3:41 PM > > At 09:01 AM 11/7/99 -0500, Kara Pekar wrote: > >Barbara Roos wrote: > >> I would save more space still by dropping the parentheses and the spaces > >> between note numbers. A unit is created by not spacing; nn alerts the > >> reader that there's more than one note number following. > >> > >> 287-288nn3,5,7,9, 292n15 > > > (>When note numbers are singular on the page, I agree that parentheses are > >not really necessary, but I think they are helpful when notes are multiple > >on a page or page range. I find > > > >287-288nn3,5,7,9 > > > >to be a little confusing, since the commas would usually indicate the end > >of that locator. The parentheses serve to group the multiple notes > >together. Therefore, if there are multiple notes on a page/page range, I > >would use parentheses for all notes in the name of consistency. > > > Kara: > > Now that you mention it I can see that not grouping multiple notes in > annotated page numbers like the one above might be a little confusing, > though not nearly as confusing for me as breaking up the locator by > including spaces after the commas that separate the notes. Also, I agree > that if we use parentheses to group multiple notes we should use them to > enclose single notes too for the sake of consistency (even though they're > not necessary and take up extra space in the index), but I prefer not to > use parentheses to group multiple notes, not merely because they take up > extra space but more because I think they unnecessarily lengthen the > annotations in locators that are already quite long, and also because using > them for multiple notes would necessitate using them for single notes as well. > > Thinking about all this I remembered that some publishers require that > annotations such as "n" and "t" be italicized, and it occurred to me to try > grouping multiple notes together without using parentheses by italicizing > them along with the preceding "nn", as in > > 287-288_nn3,5,7,9_ > > This format may eliminate any need for parentheses by clearly > distinguishing commas between note numbers from commas between locators; > and more importantly, by grouping multiple notes together with the "nn"s > preceding them and thereby distinguishing the annotations in toto from the > unformatted page numbers they follow, this format may markedly improve the > readability of annotated page numbers. > > > > I also agree that the space after the nn isn't necessary in any case. > >However, the example I gave uses the format (parentheses and a space after > >nn) required by more than one of my publishers. > > In my experience house style requirements are not necessarily set in stone. > They've usually been in place for awhile and may well include some > provisions that have come to be more or less important than others. By > obtaining and studying house style guidelines we can inquire about > individual styles and find out which ones editors may be willing to bend > according to our recommendations in order to improve index presentation. > > Thus, for example, if I have a good relationship with an editor I may be > able to suggest that not including spaces after "nn"s or note numbers might > make annotated page numbers more readable and thereby initiate a small but > significant improvement in the practice of indexing. Thereafter who knows? > If the above idea about grouping multiple note numbers with italics > instead of parentheses turns out to be any good maybe the time will come > when I can suggest it. > > All the best, > > Michael > > > > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:35:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Locators for endnotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've appreciated the additional input on this question, which has given me several alternatives to propose to this publisher next time the end note issue arises. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:21:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Billing question In-Reply-To: <199911110237.VAA09183@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You take your car in to get it tuned, and when the mechanic gives you > the bill he says "I didn't have to change the belts, but I charged you > for it." Bad analogy. You car dealer bills for work much the same way an indexer bills for work. The dealer works from what's called a "flat rate manual." The manual gives the average amount of time a mechanic should spend on any given job, such as changing belts. The dealer then multiplies that average time against his hourly labor rate. If the book says that changing belts on a '94 Taurus averages 1.6 hours and the dealer's labor rate is $50 per hour, then every owner of a '94 Taurus pays $80 for a belt change. This includes the car owned by the little old lady in Tampa, a car that has only 23,000 miles on it and has been given regular service. The engine is clean, the bolts and nuts all come off easily, the job is actually done in about an hour. The mechaninc doesn't even raise a sweat. The next car in line was used as a NY taxi. 240,000 miles at the hands of a penny pinching driver who never spent a dime he didn't have to. The nuts and bolts are rusted, one of the pulleys is bent, and a recently defunct squirrel is decomposing just behind the air cleaner. The job takes three hours of greasy, sweaty, smelly effort. Price: $80. For an indexer, the agreed upon page rate is the equivalent of a "flat rate manual." The indexer agrees to deliver an end result (a professional index) at a fixed price, regardless of the level of difficulty. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:59:16 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One interesting thing about indexing is that indexers come from various other fields - librarianship, info science, editing and publishing and tech writing. I have a feeling that the replies 'preferred term' are from librarians and 'target' from techies. Both are fine, but wouldn't it be nice if we could agree on one word. Indexing from A to Z by Wellisch has 'preferred term' in the index, leading to three discussions where thesauruses are mentioned. So I also guess that in the field of thesaurus construction this is the term used. And altho we can all call it what we like, what will YOU call it? Glenda. > As a reminder, here's what I asked: > > > Given a cross-reference, such as > > > > garbage man. *See* sanitation engineer > > > > what do you call the index entry it points to (such as > > "sanitation engineer")? > > > > Is it a locator? > > Here's what I got back: > > > I guess it is a locator, but since that word usually refers to page > > or section numbers, I call it the "chosen term." > > > I would call it "the referenced entry" or maybe simply "the reference". > > > I think that would be "preferred term" or "main entry". > > > ... the referenced heading "sanitation engineer" is called the > > "target" of the cross-reference > > > I also call this the target of the cross reference or xref target. > > You could use xref destination too or referenced heading. > > Of course, I'm not an indexer. > > > In library cataloguing, we called 'garbage man' the nonpreferred term, > > and 'sanitation engineer' the preferred term. I'd definitely not call > > it a locator... > > > I'd call "garbage man" the "lead-in term", and "sanitation engineer" > > the "preferred term". > > So it looks like we can call them pretty much whatever we want! :) > > My sincere thanks to each of you who answered, and to Binghamton for > supporting this unique forum! > > --David > > ============================= > David M. Brown - Brown Inc. > dmbrown@brown-inc.com > ============================= > > A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ > > HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real > back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. > > Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! > > > - ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:49:51 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Submitting citations to NIH (Was: medical word list needed) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I index a periodical. The publisher has applied for it to be included in Medline. It is early days yet, but I gather that if accepted we will submit data for each article in the publication in tagged format. There is also a field for author-supplied keywords, but they are not included in the database at the moment. I assume that indexing will be done by Medline staff, but that we have saved work by supplying tagged citations. Since there have been a number of replies here to a previous question from people knowledgable about MeSH etc, I thought I would see if anyone has had experience with submitting citations for inclusion in Medline, and whether anyone has also submitted indexing terms. Thanks, Glenda. > > Speaking of MeSH, isn't there a workshop offered on the east coast that has > to do with MeSH? > > Dawn > Jettio@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julia Marshall Subject: Re: Raising rates In-Reply-To: <199911040504.AAA21083@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear collective wisdom, I read the Brenner article with interest, because I am thinking of charging more per page when I have to index over 9 entries per page. The reason for this is that when I put in that many entries per page, it takes much longer to enter the data, plus it of course makes the resulting index longer which takes longer to index. I was just wondering what people thought about this idea of if any of you have graduated rates depending on how many entries per page that you have. Thanks in advance. Regards, Julia Marshall Marshall Indexing Services 301-585-8757 Regards, Julia Marshall Marshall Indexing Services 301-585-8757 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:30:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Raising rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think entries per page is a fine criterion for establishing page rates. The problem may be in being able to determine this in advance of commencing the project. I wouldn't recommend going back to the publisher (on a regular basis) and renegotiating a page rate in the middle of the project. But, in the initial negotiation, using this criterion and your estimate of total time to index would be a very objective approach. Dan ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Daniel A. Connolly ---> mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services ---> http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Indexstudents Discussion List ---> http://www.onelist.com/community/indexstudents ----- Original Message ----- From: Julia Marshall To: Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Raising rates > Dear collective wisdom, > I read the Brenner article with interest, because I am thinking of > charging more per page when I have to index over 9 entries per page. The > reason for this is that when I put in that many entries per page, it takes > much longer to enter the data, plus it of course makes the resulting index > longer which takes longer to index. I was just wondering what people > thought about this idea of if any of you have graduated rates depending on > how many entries per page that you have. Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > 301-585-8757 > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > 301-585-8757 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:12:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Rates Revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Considering the direction of the thread on rates is taking regarding what is indexable, it is beginning to sound as though we need to clarify what our definition of the indexble item(s) in a contract are prior to starting the project. How do others reflect this aspect of defining their rates in their contracts? Just wondering..... Willa (looking forward to a celebration dinner for my minister and his wife (who are retiring after 40 years of service) this evening with some mixed feelings.....and who used to think of church as a place that didn't change....) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:42:21 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Request for Indexers of non-English materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Copy of notice: Hi all, I received this today. Mr Kaim is bidding on a project for a multinational company and needs to know if the resources are available to handle the work. The subject matter is generally medical/pharmaceutical with a little biotech possible. He wants to know if there are indexers who read other languages well enough to index the material into English. In other words, the index (and the typing) will be in English but the source material will be in other languages. He would like to hear from you if you are interested. It sounds like many languages are needed. (Asian, Middle Eastern, European, etc) The majority of the material will be in English with a more limited distribution of non-English language material. As a side note, he is also still (I forwarded that note a while ago) looking for an indexing manager (in house) I get the feeling that if you felt you could manage indexers from a distance he'd be interested in hearing from you too. Contact Ed Kaim directly at ekaim@kaim.com or fax him at 203-227-4509 ______Note extract follows___ I now have another question for you related to this database project. My client wishes to collect and index all literature in any language that pertains to any of the approximately 300 products they market globally. This is a major undertaking, of course, but what seems especially daunting is the need to index from a variety of languages without English translation. I wonder if you could give me some idea of the capabilities of your SIG's members to handle non-English literature. I would also be grateful for any suggestions you might have regarding supplementary or alternative contacts I might make in order to meet this need. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:47:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glenda wrote: > > ... I have a feeling that the replies 'preferred term' are from > librarians and 'target' from techies. > > ... altho we can all call it what we like, what will YOU call it? Falling a little closer to the "techie" end of the continuum :) I'm leaning toward "target of the cross-reference" (and perhaps "x-ref target" for variety). "Preferred term" is too centered on the language-control aspect to be a good choice for our purposes. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:29:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Billing question On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:21:37 -0500 Richard Evans writes: >> You take your car in to get it tuned, and when the mechanic gives >you >> the bill he says "I didn't have to change the belts, but I charged >you >> for it." > >Bad analogy. You car dealer bills for work much the same way an >indexer >bills for work. The dealer works from what's called a "flat rate >manual." > >For an indexer, the agreed upon page rate is the equivalent of a "flat >rate >manual." The indexer agrees to deliver an end result (a professional >index) >at a fixed price, regardless of the level of difficulty. > >Dick The point of the analogy, however flawed, is that it is unfair to charge for work that was not done. To address the flaw you see, a flat rate works very well for indexing. That is what I have in mind when I quote a per page rate. But I think it is the easy _text_ pages, not the blanks, that even out the hard text pages. The presence of the blanks is completely arbitrary - how can you even run a business quoting a price based on something that may not be there? If there aren't any blanks, do you feel gypped? If there are tons of blanks, do you lower your per page rate? Do you step back and say, "Well, the hard book without blanks is balanced by the next easy book"? That may work for you, but it isn't fair to the "easy book" editor. To me, if you really want to avoid "splitting hairs" and want a simple, one line invoice to send in, the fairest billing formula, (which justly compensates you for the work you did and gives the editor a fair, fixed price) is: per page rate * number of indexable pages = total bill. (It is the per page rate that compensates for the level of difficulty - it can not be "regardless of the level of difficulty." But if you're counting blanks, I'd say the level of difficulty in indexing a blank is pretty darn low.) - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:50:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <382DA42B.149B1902@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:47 AM 11/13/99 -0800, David M. Brown wrote: >. . . >I'm leaning toward "target of the cross-reference" (and perhaps >"x-ref target" for variety). > >"Preferred term" is too centered on the language-control aspect >to be a good choice for our purposes. I've been surprised to find out that "target" is not widely known and accepted as the term for the terms to which cross-references refer, so I just looked it up in Mulvany's _Indexing Books_ and found that she uses no one term. Instead she uses various terms including the "heading pointed to" and the "term referred to" on page 107 and the "referenced term" on page 219 -- and not the "target" anywhere I looked. I must have gotten "target" from my mentor, and I'd have thought he'd have gotten it from his teacher, Nancy Mulvany, but now I'm not sure. It may have come from the Macrex manual, which, as I recall, uses it consistently. I wonder what term(s) CINDEX and Sky Index use? Anyway, I prefer "target" and "referenced term" to "preferred term" because "target" and "referenced term" indicate an aspect of the cross-reference itself and "preferred term" does not; and I prefer "target" to "referenced term" because "target" is immediately clear and "referenced term" is not, because it could be misunderstood as the term referred from instead of the term referred to. This brings me back to my earlier question: if we refer to the term referred to as the target, how do we refer to the term referred from? I've just thought of "base". Might it do? Anything else? Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:45:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Raising rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that most of you seem tied to charging a page rate. That leads to the sort of hairsplitting discussion taking place now, as to what is an indexable and chargeable page. This is certainly a step up from charging by the hour, but it certainly is not the best option. For the past few years I have negotiated a job rate for almost every index I have done. Sometimes it is necessary to translate the job rate into some other units to satisfy some accounting department, but the job rate is what the editor sees and what I know I am getting. This may not be the best tactic for newbies, but any experienced indexer would probably be better off this way. With a job rate both sides will know almost down to the penny what the invoice will say at the end. In negotiating the job rate you can take into account your page rate, line rate, entry rate or hourly rate and multiply it by the number of pages, lines, entries or hours needed for the index, or any combination of these. If the publisher (or other client) does not want a job rate (a rare event), I have always used a line rate. I find that it is easier to identify what a line is than what an index entry is. Everything from the first line to the last line counts, including the blank lines in letter breaks. A line containing five page references is one line. A line containing a cross-reference is one line. A heading which is takes up three lines is three lines. There is no room for ambiguity. Usually I am told how much space is available for the index, setting a maximum number of lines. If not, I ask how long the client wants the index to be. If I am not given a line limit or suggested length, a aim for 4 or 5 lines per page for most trade books, more for scholarly books, about 10 lines per page for history text books. Computer manuals and books vary all over the map, but computer companies and publishers of computer books are the clients most eager to agree to a job rate. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:49:39 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Landeen - Indextrous Subject: Character mapping of Arabic letters Dear Collective Wisdom, I found myself typing quite a few Arabic names for my most recent index. While I have been able to find most of the letters with diacritical markings in the Word "insert symbols" character maps, I have not been able to find them all. I am especially interested in finding the letter h with a dot underneath. Also, there are two very small symbols, similar to parentheses but shaped more like the letter c, and half-size. These I found symbols for, but they don't seem quite exact. Any help out there? Cynthia Landeen In.dex.trous 541.345.3079 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:52:05 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Michael Brackney wrote: > > ... if we refer to the term referred *to* as the "target," > how do we refer to the term referred *from*? You hear "source" and "target," or "source" and "destination," used to describe opposite ends of a hypertext link. A cross-reference really is a kind of mental "jump" from one point to another--like a hypertext link, it has two ends: the term you look up and the term to which you're redirected. I think of cross-references as "special" only in that they refer to locations within the index, which don't exist until the index is created and which may change--or even disappear!--each time the index is reconstructed. In HTML Indexer, we'll probably use the terms "cross-reference entry" and "cross-reference target" ("x-ref entry" and "x-ref target" for short). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 23:13:10 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rates Revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Willa, The church as a spiritual concept doesn't change; we know that the human institution is a little less permanent. I love this definition of church: The structure of Truth and Love; whatever rest upon and proceeds from divine Principle. John ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 16:39:55 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: Raising rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To my knowledge few Australian indexers are offered a per-page rate for indexing. Sometimes we work on an hourly rate (I quite like this since, despite 10 years experience, I seem to often under-quote) but usually we are sent the page proofs of a job - or at least a sample - and are asked to give a project quote. This quote may be accepted, rejected, or negotiated down (with a 'simpler' index resulting). I have in mind a rough 'per page' figure for each sort of book, but this might range from $2 to $10, for heavily illustrated, light text, large font books to detailed medical texts. Even for a book of one type I will consider what indexing is required (eg, tables and illustrations), the number of nonindexable pages (eg, lists of references) and so on. I wouldn't mind being offered a per page rate, but I would want to see the book to check that I could do an appropriate index in the time that would allow. I agree absolutely with Elliot Linzer who says in another post that the use of a per page rate leads to the problems discussed recently - what is an indexable page, etc. There is nothing sacred about a page. What matters is the information on that page, and that can't be so easily summarised. So my quick answer to the question below is Yes, most definitely. Charge for indexing work, not for paper supplied. Glenda. > Dear collective wisdom, > I read the Brenner article with interest, because I am thinking of > charging more per page when I have to index over 9 entries per page. The > reason for this is that when I put in that many entries per page, it takes > much longer to enter the data, plus it of course makes the resulting index > longer which takes longer to index. I was just wondering what people > thought about this idea of if any of you have graduated rates depending on > how many entries per page that you have. Thanks in advance. > > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > 301-585-8757 > Regards, > Julia Marshall > Marshall Indexing Services > 301-585-8757 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 07:33:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: Re: Character mapping of Arabic letters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: >I am especially interested in finding the letter h with a >dot underneath. Also, there are two very small symbols, similar to >parentheses but shaped more like the letter c, and half-size. I don't know the name of the h with the dot under it, but the two "c's" are an ayn and a hamza. The ayn faces right and the hamza faces left making it look sort of like an apostrophe. It may be best for you to insert these as a code and enclosing them in, say, square brackets so the publisher can find them. [ayn] [hamza] [hdot] might work well -- we used to do this sort of thing when we only had DOS-based programs to work with and the ASCII extended character set didn't include Arabic characters. We limped then, but it worked. Deborah Deborah E. Patton Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 09:55:22 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Character mapping of Arabic letters In-Reply-To: <199911140054.TAA28796@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:49 PM 11/13/99 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Collective Wisdom, >I found myself typing quite a few Arabic names for my most recent index. >While I have been able to find most of the letters with diacritical >markings in the Word "insert symbols" character maps, I have not been able >to find them all. I am especially interested in finding the letter h with a >dot underneath. Also, there are two very small symbols, similar to >parentheses but shaped more like the letter c, and half-size. These I >found symbols for, but they don't seem quite exact. Any help out there? >Cynthia Landeen For Semitic diacriticals (you are describing the subdot, aleph and ayin), I've been using the free font SPAtlantis. It includes haceks, macrons, breves, rockers and just about anything you need for Semitic languages transliterated into English. It's available from Scholars Press at: ftp://scholar.cc.emory.edu/pub/fonts/. The keymap is in the "readme" file. Best of all (for my purposes, at least), it comes in both Mac and PC versions and so there's no problem converting documents from one platform to the other. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:27:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Raising rates In-Reply-To: <19991113.185522.-176887.0.elinzer@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:45 PM 11/13/99 -0500, you wrote: > I know that most of you seem tied to charging a page rate. That > leads >to the sort of hairsplitting discussion taking place now, as to what is >an indexable and chargeable page. This is certainly a step up from >charging by the hour, but it certainly is not the best option. > For the past few years I have negotiated a job rate for almost every >index I have done. Sometimes it is necessary to translate the job rate >into some other units to satisfy some accounting department, but the job >rate is what the editor sees and what I know I am getting. This may not >be the best tactic for newbies, but any experienced indexer would >probably be better off this way. With a job rate both sides will know >almost down to the penny what the invoice will say at the end. > In negotiating the job rate you can take into account your page rate, >line rate, entry rate or hourly rate and multiply it by the number of >pages, lines, entries or hours needed for the index, or any combination >of these. > Hi All: As you can imagine, the rate issue has been discussed on the freelance list on a regular basis. The majority of experienced freelancers on that list prefer the project rate versus defining a more specific rate. Eliot is right, however, that it takes newbies time to figure out what an appropriate project rate is (not good English, but). That's why lists like Index-l and Freelance are so useful. They are a great resource tools for people getting started. Willa (who is enjoying a weekend of celebrations....a retirement party and a birthday party for someone in Boston who has organized contra dances for 40 years.......) Willa MacAllen Indexing, Proofreading, Editing, Research MacAllen's Information Services Brighton, MA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 12:17:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <382E23D5.A362EABE@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:52 PM 11/13/99 -0800, David M. Brown wrote: >Michael Brackney wrote: >> >> ... if we refer to the term referred *to* as the "target," >> how do we refer to the term referred *from*? > >. . . >In HTML Indexer, we'll probably use the terms "cross-reference entry" and >"cross-reference target" ("x-ref entry" and "x-ref target" for short). David: I like this simple suggestion. It cuts off my groping for some term such as "base" (which now seems way off!) and brings our search back to reality! "X-ref entry" looks right to me except for one thing: it's synonymous with the term "cross-reference" itself in that the term "entry" means both a heading and a reference (a reference being either a locator or an xref target). Thus, I think the "heading" of the cross-reference is the term we want (and "x-ref heading" or "xref heading" in broader contexts). Do you agree? Thanks, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:15:03 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Brackney wrote: > > "X-ref entry" looks right to me except for one thing: it's synonymous with > the term "cross-reference" itself in that the term "entry" means both a > heading and a reference (a reference being either a locator or an xref > target). Thus, I think the "heading" of the cross-reference is the term we > want (and "x-ref heading" or "xref heading" in broader contexts). Do you > agree? Perhaps my thinking is too narrow, but I have trouble with "heading" for an entry that has no subentries. I guess I'll have to "grope" a bit longer. :) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:31:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Herzog Subject: misunderstood emails MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF2EA4.7E0DA180" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF2EA4.7E0DA180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Everyone, I belong to a couple of lists and I always see cases of injured feelings = over email messages. One of the major pitfalls of written communication = is that we can't see the smile in someone's eyes, or hear the warmth of = their laughter. To rely on words only can be a narrow framework from which to draw = inferences.=20 I think one should therefore assume that we are all here to support and = uplift one another. If you want to fight..Please tell me plainly! I refuse to draw that = conclusion on my own! Pamela aa2463@wayne.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF2EA4.7E0DA180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Everyone,
I belong to a couple of lists and I always see = cases of=20 injured feelings over email messages. One of the major pitfalls of = written=20 communication is that we can't see the smile in someone's eyes, or hear = the=20 warmth of their laughter.
To rely on words only can be a narrow = framework from=20 which to draw inferences.
I think one should therefore assume that we = are all here=20 to support and uplift one another.
If you want to fight..Please tell me plainly! = I refuse=20 to draw that conclusion on my own!
Pamela
aa2463@wayne.edu
= ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF2EA4.7E0DA180-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:33:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pamela Herzog Subject: oops..wrong list! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF2EA4.DD288E00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF2EA4.DD288E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I just posted to the wrong list. Pamela aa2463@wayne.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF2EA4.DD288E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, I just posted to the wrong = list.
Pamela
aa2463@wayne.edu
= ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01BF2EA4.DD288E00-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:48:31 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY In-Reply-To: <382EFC27.7F5D0C91@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:15 am 14/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >Michael Brackney wrote: >> >> "X-ref entry" looks right to me except for one thing: it's synonymous with >> the term "cross-reference" itself in that the term "entry" means both a >> heading and a reference (a reference being either a locator or an xref >> target). The international standard ISO 999 (Guidelines for the content, organization and presentation of indexes) says: "See" cross-references should be made from non-preferred synonyms and alternative forms to preferred headings. (7.5.1) Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:11:24 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: oops..wrong list! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF2EB2.843FE6E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF2EB2.843FE6E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Pamela, Perhaps your message wasn't meant for Index-L but it was good advice for = any list! Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: Pamela Herzog To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU = Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: oops..wrong list! =20 =20 Sorry, I just posted to the wrong list. Pamela aa2463@wayne.edu ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF2EB2.843FE6E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Pamela,
 
Perhaps your message wasn't meant for Index-L but it = was good=20 advice for any list!
 
Best,
Sylvia Coates
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Pamela Herzog <aa2463@WAYNE.EDU>
To: = INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMT= ON.EDU=20 <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMT= ON.EDU>
Date:=20 Sunday, November 14, 1999 6:55 PM
Subject: oops..wrong = list!

Sorry, I just posted to the wrong = list.
Pamela
aa2463@wayne.edu
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF2EB2.843FE6E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Note or Not? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello listmembers, Please excuse the simplicity of this question...I don't often work with footnote material that must be indexed, and I'm wondering about the standard way of handling this. When a work is quoted in the text, but actually cited in a footnote on the same page, does the entry for that work have the locator as the text page (plain ole 93) or the note (93n2)? For instance, the text on page 93 says: "And Bob Jones stated, 'Blah Blah Blah.' And the footnote reads "Bob Jones, _Incredible Stories_ 306" I want to index Incredible Stories as an entry. What would the locator be? Thanks in advance for any guidance. Marcy Brown Wordsmith Services Delmont PA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:10:13 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon and Glenda Subject: Re: quick question: SUMMARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't the word 'source' come up before? (I have deleted old messages). This is better than entry I think. As it stands, these terms would refer to both See and See also refs. It would be more precise to refer to 'See reference targets' if this is the general approach taken. Glenda. > At 06:52 PM 11/13/99 -0800, David M. Brown wrote: > >Michael Brackney wrote: > >> > >> ... if we refer to the term referred *to* as the "target," > >> how do we refer to the term referred *from*? > > > >. . . > >In HTML Indexer, we'll probably use the terms "cross-reference entry" and > >"cross-reference target" ("x-ref entry" and "x-ref target" for short). > > > David: > > I like this simple suggestion. It cuts off my groping for some term such > as "base" (which now seems way off!) and brings our search back to reality! > > "X-ref entry" looks right to me except for one thing: it's synonymous with > the term "cross-reference" itself in that the term "entry" means both a > heading and a reference (a reference being either a locator or an xref > target). Thus, I think the "heading" of the cross-reference is the term we > want (and "x-ref heading" or "xref heading" in broader contexts). Do you > agree? > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > Brackney Indexing Service > 134 Kathleen Way > Grass Valley, CA 95945 > 530-272-7088