Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9910A" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:21:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Alphabetizing specific names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OK, I'm lost. How would you alphabetize the following names? 1 - Masao Abe is a Buddhist theologian. Is this name Westernized? 2 - Sri Aryyaratne is the neo-Gandhian leader in Sri Lanka, and Sri Aurobindo is a Sri Lankan mystic. Is Sri an honorific? 3 - And finally, Arend Th. van Leeuwen, a theologian. I'm tending toward using L, unless he is known differently: Leeuwen, Arend Th. van Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 19:17:26 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: Alphabetizing specific names In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 pm 30/09/99 -0700, Martha wrote: >OK, I'm lost. How would you alphabetize the following names? > >1 - Masao Abe is a Buddhist theologian. Is this name Westernized? I can help with the first one. He is Japanese, and the family name is Abe, so it goes: Abe, Masao Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:45:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: feedback? In-Reply-To: <01a501bf0ba6$b22662c0$4dc256d1@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Again: > >Of course, beggars can't be choosers. I find that getting any projects at >all is the biggest hurdle for beginners. > >Regards, >Homer Of course you are right. As with getting started in any profession, finding people who are willing to hire beginners is the most difficult task. After that comes building that all important client base.....that's my current goal. :) Willa (who is on vacation until next weekend and looking forward to taking an Elderhostel on black and white photography in western Mass....if you feel your ears burning during the week, it's probably me talking about indexing to other Elderhostelers.... ) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 10:59:50 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: Romanian diacritics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone on the list faced a plethora of names with Eastern European diacritics, Romanian in particular? I'd be interested in hearing how this problem was handled. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:38:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: ASI call for proposals In-Reply-To: <199910011728.NAA21582@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Most, if not all, of the Jul/Aug KeyWords containing the call for proposals for the Albuquerque conference should be in the hands of ASI members by now. The deadline for submitting proposals is November 1, only 30 days away. The conference draws about 250 editors, publishers, and indexers. ASI is seeking proposals for half-day and full-day workshops, panel discussions, roundtable discussions, and general session lectures. If you are considering presenting at Albuquerque, please submit your proposal as soon as possible. If you do plan to present but can^Òt submit your proposal by November 1, please drop me a note stating your intention. For details, including a list of suggested topics, see the ASI site at: www.asindexing.org and follow the jolly red pepper . Or contact me at infodex@mindspring.com Dick Evans Vice President/Conference Planner American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 16:34:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: International Personal Name Resource Book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQoNClRoYXQgaXMgbGlrZWx5IHRvIGJlIGEgcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRpdGxlIGFuZCBub3Qg YXZhaWxhYmxlIGZvciBpbnRlcmxpYnJhcnkgbG9hbi4gIE1vc3QgbGlicmFyaWVzIGhvbGRpbmcg aXQgd291bGQgcHJvdmlkZSB0aGUgbmVlZGVkIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHRvIHNvbWVvbmUgd2hvIHBo b25lZCB0aGUgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGRlc2suICBUaGUgT0NMQyBkYXRhYmFzZSB3aWxsIGdpdmUgYSBs aXN0IG9mIGxvY2FsIG9yIG5lYXJieSBsaWJyYXJpZXMgd2hvIGhhdmUgcHVyY2hhc2VkIGl0Lg0K DQpBbm5lIFRheWxvcg0Kc2FsdEBpbmxpbmsuY29tDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0t LS0tDQpGcm9tOiBGcmFuayBFeG5lciA8ZmV4bmVyQFlBSE9PLkNPTT4NClRvOiBJTkRFWC1MQExJ U1RTRVJWLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVIDxJTkRFWC1MQExJU1RTRVJWLkJJTkdIQU1UT04uRURVPg0K RGF0ZTogVGh1cnNkYXksIFNlcHRlbWJlciAzMCwgMTk5OSA0OjA1IFBNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBJbnRl cm5hdGlvbmFsIFBlcnNvbmFsIE5hbWUgUmVzb3VyY2UgQm9vaw0KDQoNCj5IaSBmb2xrLA0KPg0K PlNvbWUgdGltZSBhZ28gdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgdGhyZWFkIGFib3V0IGZvcm1zIG9mDQo+cGVyc29u YWwgbmFtZXMgb3V0c2lkZSB0aGUgVVMgYW5kIENhbmFkYS4gUmVjZW50bHkgSQ0KPmZvdW5kICJO YW1lcyBvZiBQZXJzb25zOiBOYXRpb25hbCBVc2FnZXMgZm9yIEVudHJ5IGluDQo+Q2F0YWxvZ3Vl cyIgcHVibGlzaGVkIGJ5IEsuIEcuIFNhdXIgKElTQk46DQo+MzU5ODExMzQyMCkuIFRoaXMgaXMg dGhlIGZvdXJ0aCByZXZpc2VkIGFuZCBleHBhbmRlZA0KPmVkaXRpb24uIFRoZSBib29rLCByZWxl YXNlZCBieSB0aGUgSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbA0KPkZlZGVyYXRpb24gb2YgTGlicmFyeSBBc3NvY2lh dGlvbiAoSUZMQSksIGlzIHJhdGhlcg0KPnByaWNleSAoJDEyNS4wMCksIGJ1dCBpdCBtaWdodCBi ZSBhdmFpbGFibGUgYnkNCj5JbnRlci1saWJyYXJ5IExvYW4uDQo+DQo+QmVzdCBvZiBsdWNrLA0K PkZyYW5rIEV4bmVyLCBMaXR0bGUgQmVhcg0KPg0KPg0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+RG8gWW91IFlhaG9vIT8NCj5CaWQgYW5k IHNlbGwgZm9yIGZyZWUgYXQgaHR0cDovL2F1Y3Rpb25zLnlhaG9vLmNvbQ0KPg0K ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:15:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: ASI web site index Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Just a note to suggest that indexers looking for information remember the ASI web site, which has dozens of links to great reference sources. I also want to mention the re-designed site index, which has been very well-received with our visitors so far. Check it out at http://www.asindexing.org/ Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 15:06:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: DC/ASI Workshop: Facing the Text Comments: To: dcpubs@egroups.com, indexstudents@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A workshop by Do Mi Stauber Facing the Text Content Analysis and Entry Selection in Social Sciences and Humanities=20 Indexing Saturday, November 6, 1999 National Institutes of Health Building 31, Conference Rm. 6 Bethesda, MD (For more directions, go to http://www.nih.gov) The DC Chapter of ASI (American Society of Indexers) is pleased to host a=20 workshop by Do Mi Stauber. Her participatory workshop focuses on the=20 practical processes of indexing. We will survey the steps that indexers=20 follow as we interpret texts and create index structures, using examples and=20 hands-on exercises from a range of real texts and indexes. This workshop=20 covers back-of-the-book indexing of both scholarly books and textbooks in th= e=20 social sciences and humanities. It is not a basic introduction to indexing,=20 but novices as well as experienced indexers should benefit. Among subjects t= o=20 be discussed: main topics, indexable topics, index structure, subheads, cros= s=20 references, and wording.=20 Participants receive approximately 40 pp of handouts, including an outline o= f=20 indexing strategy information and extensive examples.=20 Do Mi Stauber has been a full-time back-of-book indexer for the past eleven=20 years. She managed Twin Oaks Indexing Collective for two years, supervising=20 and training a group of indexers. She indexes scholarly books, textbooks and=20 government documents in all of the social sciences and humanities. She is a=20 past chair of the Wilson Award judging committee, and is the author of=20 "Jewels in the Cavern: The Special Challenge of Scholarly Indexing." Schedule: 9am-4pm, with breaks in the morning and afternoon, and a lunch hou= r=20 [bring a bag lunch]. Directions: --By car, take I-495 north to Exit 34, Rt. 355 (Wisconsin Ave./Rockville=20 Pike) South. Turn right onto Cedar Lane, then left to West Dr. to NIH. Turn=20 left onto Center Dr. Building 31 will be on your left. OR take I-495 north to Exit 36, Old Georgetown Rd. Go south 2 miles, then=20 left on Center Dr. into NIH. Stay on Center Dr. across South Dr. Building 31=20 will be on your right. Parking: Visitor pay parking for Building 31 is in Lot 4A, on Center Dr.=20 --By metro: Take the Red Line to Medical Center Station. The NIH campus=20 shuttle bus stops at the station every 15-20 minutes. For more information contact Deborah Patton: deborahpatton@mindspring.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- ---------------------------- REGISTRATION FORM Name Telephon= e=20 E-mail =20 =20 Mailing address =20 =20 =20 =20 In order to help Do Mi Stauber focus her presentation to the audience, pleas= e=20 answer the following questions: =95 How long have you been indexing? =20 =20 =20 =95 What type of materials do you index? =20 =20 =20 =95 What are your main areas/subjects of expertise? =20 =20 =20 Registration fees are $50 for ASI members, $65 for nonmembers. [Don't forget=20 to bring a bag lunch!] Send completed forms and checks to: Bill Lively, DC/ASI Treasurer, 410 Schle= y=20 Road, Annapolis, MD 21401-2261. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- ---------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 12:27:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: anonymity, fictional names and Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A new project has come my way which will include numerous names of people who wish to remain anonymous. The author has given them fictional names and identities. These names contain a forename and an initial for the surname. They are further identified by occupation and location, also both fictional. In addition, the index will include subject entries and place names. Has anyone indexed this type of material? If so, how did you handle it? My inclination is to index the names as follows: John D. (accountant), 56-58 John D. (attorney; New York), 100-12 John D. (attorney; Los Angeles), 250-55 Sally S. (artist), 90-93 Somehow, using the inverted style here doesn't seem to be an option; the user will most likely remember the first name rather than the initial, and by identifying the occupation, and, if necessary the location, will be able to find the person in the text. I doubt that anyone would look under "D." or "S.", no matter whether they've read the book or not. A headnote might be useful to explain how this construction came about. (I'm guessing that the fictional locations should not be indexed.) I will be discussing how these entries should be handled with the editor on Monday; meanwhile, I would appreciate any suggestions or advice you might have. TIA, Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 21:12:19 +0100 Reply-To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Diepeveen Subject: Fees dilemma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear collective wisdom, Today I got a second commission for an index from a quite prestigious British publisher. I have not been in indexing for very long (less than two years), so I was obviously delighted. However, the editor told me over the phone that my fees are on the high side and that most of his other indexers charge less. He said he knew I was charging the minimum hourly fee recommended by the Society of Indexers here in the UK (£14/hour and I index 10 pages per hour of fairly straightforward academic text), but what did I think about this? I asked him what sort of fee he had in mind, he answered that he did not have anything in mind. I told him that I was hesitant to charge less, because it might be considered unprofessional conduct by other members of the Society of Indexers. He said fine do the index for £14 per hour. I am now facing a dilemma. This editor must have been fairly happy with my work, otherwise he would not have come back to me. However, he was also implying that I would get more regular work and larger assignments if I lowered my fees. Has anyone else ever faced a dilemma like this one? If so, I would love to hear what you did and what the results were. Caroline Diepeveen Indexer Aberdeenshire (Scotland) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 13:56:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan McQuarrie Subject: Re: Fees dilemma Comments: To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just once have I had an editor, after asking what my hourly rate was, gasp and say that seemed a bit high. I said something like, "you haven't seen how fast I work - let me do the index and I guarantee you will be surprised at how reasonable the charge is." She continues to offer me jobs. Of course we don't have minimum standards here, and I would not necessarily be in favor of them if we did. I believe that anyone is free to set whatever price they will be comfortable working for, regardless of what someone else may think that's called free enterprise - and I think that's ultimately the call you'll have to make. BTW, 14 pounds ($23.17 US at today's prices) isn't much when one looks at an article in the Internationl Herald Tribune September 29, (p. 1), which gives some comparative prices between the UK and US: Unleaded gasoline: US $1.30, London, $5.44; 6-pack of Coca-cola, $14 US, $24 in London; Color Printer HP Deskjet 1100 - $400 US , $655 in London! Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com P.O. Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 phone: 206-985-8799 fax: 206-985-8796 anderson@the-indexer.com http://www.the-indexer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 17:21:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fees dilemma Comments: To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-10-01 16:12:42 EDT, Carolinediepeveen@COMPUSERVE.COM writes: << Has anyone else ever faced a dilemma like this one? If so, I would love to hear what you did and what the results were. >> Well, this is a business. Its his job to get the project done a the lowest possible price and its your job to make sure you don't lower your prices lower than the cost of your expences plus a salary you can live on. It wouldn't do you much good to have a lot of work at a rock bottom rate and have no time to look for a higher paying client. Or have too much lower paid work and be unable to accept that job from an unexpected caller who would offer a better hourly rate. If you need to build your client list and your resume, go ahead and accept the projects but don't "marry" your business to a low paying client. One idea might be to ask to see samples of the work and then bid with a project price for the job. This price would be based on how long it would take you to do the index but he wouldn't be looking at your hourly rate. If you are quick or slow you would make the same money and how many hours you spend would be your own business. Sometimes an hourly rate can intimidate an editor because they sit there and think, that they dont make that much. They forget they are hiring a business with overheads. Putting the emphasis on the product price might work out better. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 16:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Fees dilemma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 10/1/1999 3:56 PM Susan McQuarrie wrote (in part): >BTW, 14 pounds ($23.17 US at today's prices) isn't much when one looks at an >article in the Internationl Herald Tribune September 29, (p. 1), which gives >some comparative prices between the UK and US: Unleaded gasoline: US >$1.30, London, $5.44; 6-pack of Coca-cola, $14 US, $24 in London; Color >Printer HP Deskjet 1100 - $400 US , $655 in London! Susan, you're buying your Coca-Cola at the wrong place. I hope that was a typo. In the St. Louis area it costs less than $1 for a two-liter bottle (79 cents on special). ;) Back on topic, my initial impression, Caroline, is that your editor was running a little test and that if you'd agreed to lower your rate he would have found a way to save his company some money. This is not an underhanded thing. Many people try to negotiate a favorable price. The bargaining mindset. I think your decision to stand by your rate is a good one. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:08:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Fees dilemma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The solution to Caroline Diepeveen's dilemma, to my eyes, is to negotiate a job rate with the client. This way both sides know what the assignment is going to cost. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Oct 1999 22:08:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: anonymity, fictional names and MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lillian is having a problem not with names of fictional characters, but with pseudonyms for real people. I assume that the people are not celebrities. The first names and initials for family names carry no particular meaning. Pseudonyms have been used since Freud's day to refer to patients in psychiatry books and in allied fields. I do not know of any specific rule or convention for this situation. What Lillian suggested, using the pseudonyms, uninverted, with an identification in parentheses, looks to me like it does the job. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 01:22:35 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Negotiating a Rate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - Elliot Linzer wrote (with regard to an editor asking an indexer to lower her fee): >The solution to Caroline Diepeveen's dilemma, to my eyes, is to >negotiate a job rate with the client. This way both sides know what the >assignment is going to cost.< That is excellent advice, but in this case I would respectfully disagree. Caroline's initial posting said that she already had established a fee in her first project, and that this fee was restated for her second project. Quite consistent. When the editor, also quite reasonably, asked if she would consider lowering her fee, she demurred for good reason. The editor (perhaps reluctantly) agreed, and it seems to me that the issue has been settled. I can't see any compelling reason to renogitiate at this time - - obviously her work, in the editor's eyes, is worth her fee. That is one sleeping dog I would not recommending awakening (or, if you prefer a different metaphor, one can of worms I would leave unopened). One factor that might mitigate this would be if the client offered a much simpler text, and Caroline agreed that because of the expected ease of indexing, she could agree to lower her fee in the knowledge that her hourly compensation still would be satisfactory. In such a case, we have a so-called "two-tier" pricing system, and that is entirely reasonable. One of my favorite clients typically sends me very difficult scientific/engineering texts, and for this they pay an appropriate fee. I have asked one editor if she would not consider sending me some simpler texts now and then, like "See the rabbit hop. Hop, rabbit, hop!" and that I would happily invoke Bob's Discount Indexing for these more amiable books. She responded, sympathetically, that she had a lot of indexers to whom she sent the easy ones, but she saved me for the hard ones! Hmmnnn. So much for two-tier pricing... Some years ago I had a somewhat different experience from Caroline's. In my case, a packager offered me a technical book to index at a fee that could not exceed $2.50/page. I told him that this was below my minimum rate for this type of indexing. "Ah," he said, "but at that rate I can give you all the work you can handle!" It took me about 15 seconds to digest this response, and then the delightfully surreal quality of his economics struck me. One index at below-minimum fee might not be attractive, but ten indexes at below-minimum fee were an irresistible opportunity for enrichment! Somewhat like saying that his restaurant offered really bad food, but the portions were very large... But the discussion was quite amicable. He was doing his thing, and I was doing mine. Fair enough. In Caroline's case, one factor that might influence her decision is the degree of [self] confidence that she has regarding her attractiveness as a freelance indexer to this or other clients. My sense is that the editor already has made clear that he values her work at her original fee, and is willing to accept it. The fear of pricing oneself out of the market is not unreasonable. But it must be tempered with a countervailing professional confidence, lest we become browbeaten both by client pressure to reduce costs and by our own diffuse and unfounded anxiety. Life, as we all know, is not without some irreducible risk. The trick seems to be to strike a reasonable balance between outright bravado and being afraid to move. After many years of banging around this rather difficult planet, and accumulating a fine assortment of dents in my fenders, I have come to believe that in general one must set some sort of boundaries, do one's best, and then, having done what you believe to be right, accept the consequences. You win some, and you lose some, but in general winning proves to be ephemeral, and losing usually is not catastrophic. To me, the important thing is to be able to look in the mirror and not be too ashamed of what you see. Sometimes that takes all the courage we can muster; sometimes it take a bit more... Bless us all... Those dark nights can get pretty scary. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:33:09 +1200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: Alphabetizing specific names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >2 - Sri Aryyaratne is the neo-Gandhian leader in Sri Lanka, and Sri >Aurobindo is a Sri Lankan mystic. Is Sri an honorific? Yes, "Sri" is an honorific, meaning "holiness". Alphabetise as Aryyaratne, Sri, and Aurobindo, Sri. >3 - And finally, Arend Th. van Leeuwen, a theologian. I'm tending toward >using L, unless he is known differently: > Leeuwen, Arend Th. van If he is Dutch, yes. If he is from an English-speaking country but has a Dutch name, then "Van Leeuwen, Arend Th." Likewise if it's an Afrikaans name. Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 15:42:36 EST+10 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sau Foster Organization: State Library of New South Wales Subject: SIGNOFF How do I get off this list? I've followed the procedure outlined to sign-off the list and I did so a few days ago and I'm still receiving mail ... Help, S. Foster sfoster@ilanet.slnsw.gov.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 16:28:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Spern Subject: Re: ASI web site index In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good job on the site index! I was really impressed with the new "look and feel" of the index. Thanks Larry and the other indexers. Karen Spern Ahimsa Media kspern@bestweb.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of > larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM > Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 2:16 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: ASI web site index > > > Just a note to suggest that indexers looking for information remember > the ASI web site, which has dozens of links to great reference > sources. I also want to mention the re-designed site index, which has > been very well-received with our visitors so far. Check it out at > http://www.asindexing.org/ > > > Regards, > Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter > [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 14:52:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ivana PrijicNiseteo Subject: Re: SIGNOFF In-Reply-To: <1749FDBE5BCA@macquarie.slnsw.gov.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm trying to get off the list as well, since mid-August... HELP! On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Sau Foster wrote: > How do I get off this list? > > I've followed the procedure outlined to sign-off the list and I did > so a few days ago and I'm still receiving mail ... > > Help, > > S. Foster > sfoster@ilanet.slnsw.gov.au > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 18:12:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: fax/phone software--modems??? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I recently got a new computer and PhoneTools fax/phone software was preinstalled on it. This software does not seem to be working well, in spite of the free upgrade the company gave me when I complained. I can receive phone calls, but the fax machine does not consistently work. Since I need some consistency here to look professional, I am researching other software. Does anyone have experience with PhoneTools and advice about that particular software? Does anyone have any other suggestions? (I already have a scanner, so I don't need to worry about having an independent fax machine.) Lastly, does anyone have any experience with MessageSaver, a specialized fax modem that actually can accept and store received faxes and voice messages without the computer being on? Thanks in advance for any information. Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:11:44 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: SIGNOFF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0CF9.33AF9C00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0CF9.33AF9C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just in case they've changed the procedures on you I thought I'd send you what I was told today after I signed up. They may not have changed the procedures on you, but I don't have any other information on sign-offs to send you. Max mdalry@sr66.com You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF INDEX-L" command to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU. You can also tell LISTSERV how you want it to confirm the receipt of messages you send to the list. If you do not trust the system, send a "SET INDEX-L REPRO" command and LISTSERV will send you a copy of your own messages, so that you can see that the message was distributed and did not get damaged on the way. After a while you may find that this is getting annoying, especially if your mail program does not tell you that the message is from you when it informs you that new mail has arrived from INDEX-L. If you send a "SET INDEX-L ACK NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will mail you a short acknowledgement instead, which will look different in your mailbox directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is an acknowledgement you can read later. Finally, you can turn off acknowledgements completely with "SET INDEX-L NOACK NOREPRO". -----Original Message----- From: Ivana PrijicNiseteo To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Saturday, October 02, 1999 4:05 PM Subject: Re: SIGNOFF >I'm trying to get off the list as well, since mid-August... >HELP! > > >On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Sau Foster wrote: > >> How do I get off this list? >> >> I've followed the procedure outlined to sign-off the list and I did >> so a few days ago and I'm still receiving mail ... >> >> Help, >> >> S. Foster >> sfoster@ilanet.slnsw.gov.au >> ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0CF9.33AF9C00 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Max Dalrymple.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Max Dalrymple.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Dalrymple;Max FN:Max Dalrymple EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:publiclibrary@crosswinds.net REV:19991002T231143Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0CF9.33AF9C00-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 19:11:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: fax/phone software--modems??? Hi Leslie, I've been using eFax.com for receiving faxes. It is a free service that stores received faxes on a remote site and sends it to you as an e-mail attachment. It has been working great. The phone number assigned is not necessarily in your state, but it's quite likely your own fax number would be long distance for anyone anyway. the web site has more information at www.efax.com. They also offer more services for a fee, including sending faxes from your computer (it's only about $2.95 a month). To send faxes I am using WinFax Pro starter edition - I got it as free software when I bought Norton Systemworks (which, as many people have stated before, sucks). I paid $50 for Norton, am getting a $20 rebate, and am consoling myself that I got a fax software program for $30. - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 21:33:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: queries: literary & fine arts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings all: I have two questions I haven't been able to resolve -- and, big surprise, that I need to have resolved soon in order to meet a deadline. 1. The author says: I believe it was Piglet, in _Wind in the Willows_, who said so wisely, "Come along inside. We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." Unless I'm badly mistaken, there's no Piglet in WW, but then who said this? Was it Badger in WW? or Christopher Robin in _The House at Pooh Corner_? I've just heard from someone that it is a character in WW but they don't know who. Any of you know? 2. Again the author says: There is a painting in the Louvre by a certain Olivier depicting perhaps the most famous French tea. It is entitled _Tea a l'anglaise in the Grand Salon of the Temple with the Court of the Prince de Conti Listening to the Young Mozart_. Any of you know Olivier's given names and/or initials? I suspect that he or she lived in about the 17th century. TIA to anyone who can and would care to check out one or both of these questions for me, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 23:39:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991002183536.26cf299e@pop3.nccn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf > Of Michael Brackney > Sent: Saturday, October 02, 1999 9:34 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: queries: literary & fine arts > > > Greetings all: > > I have two questions I haven't been able to > resolve -- and, big surprise, > that I need to have resolved soon in order to > meet a deadline. > > > 1. The author says: > > I believe it was Piglet, in _Wind in the > Willows_, who said so wisely, > "Come along inside. We'll see if tea and > buns can make the world a > better place." You are right that Piglet does not appear in Wind in the Willows--he is of the Pooh books. In Wind in the Willows, Rat frequently (very frequently!) says, "Come along" to Mole, and offers food (so does Badger for that matter) but the exact quote you give here does not appear in the text. The mention of "buns" sounds more like the Pooh books, to me. Honestly, the quote sounds more like someone's paraphrase of one of the two books; it just doesn't quite sound authentic--just my opinion--for either book. The phrase "make the world a better place" doesn't sound right to me--I could be crazy, though! Anyway, here is a fully searchable electronic version of Wind in the Willows: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/etext95/wwill 10.txt Unfortunately, I cannot find searchable text for House at Pooh Corner or for Now We Are Six. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 00:40:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You are right that Piglet does not appear in Wind in the > Willows--he is of the Pooh books. In Wind in the Willows, > Rat frequently (very frequently!) says, "Come along" to > Mole, and offers food (so does Badger for that matter) but > the exact quote you give here does not appear in the text. > The mention of "buns" sounds more like the Pooh books, to > me. > > Honestly, the quote sounds more like someone's paraphrase of > one of the two books; it just doesn't quite sound > authentic--just my opinion--for either book. The phrase > "make the world a better place" doesn't sound right to me--I > could be crazy, though! It doesn't sound like Milne to me either. Could it possibly be E. Nesbit? Or Noel Streatfield? Incidentally, isn't it _The Wind in the Willows_ rather than _Wind in the Willows_? At least according to my copy. Kara Pekar jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 01:18:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts(2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, could the "fully searchable text" of WW be abridged? My book is abridged, so I couldn't find the text in it. But my husband did a net search and found three sites, each quoting the identical quote and attributing it to Graham's _The Wind in the Willows._ This may, of course, be a commonly misquoted "bit," but the attribution seems consistent. Of course, it certainly wasn't Piglet who said it, since as Ann pointed out (and Michael already spotted), Piglet is in the Milne books, not WW. For scads more quotes on tea, see http://www.teatime.com/tea/sayings.html Thank God for tea! What would the world do without tea! How did it exist? I am glad I was not born before tea. -Sidney Smith Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 03:41:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts In-Reply-To: <37F6C90E.1BE9CFA0@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Ann, Kara, Shelly Greenhouse, et al.: Thanks a lot for your efforts! Surprisingly to me -- I haven't done much of this -- the results of all your Web searches varied considerably: from not finding the quote in the text, and not even some of the key words in the quote, to finding the quote verbatim in its entirety. It seems like you, Shelly, found enough of the passage (plus an extra "He has "!) to provide the answer so I'm copying your message to me back to everybody else to show how continued searches in the face of repeated denials can be fruitful. At 11:10 PM 10/2/99 -0400, Shelly Greenhouse wrote to me: > >The Web is a fine, fine place. The entire text of WW can be viewed/read/ >searched at >http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed-new?id=GraWind&images=ima ges/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed&tag=public > > > >Be sure to stretch your email window to get the whole thing on one line. >The text can then be searched for a) Piglet and b) the tea quote. Piglet >and the phrases "come along inside" and "tea and buns" are not found by >the search facility on my browser. A search for tea reveals it was had >by Toad, served by a unnamed girl on pages 166-168) in the electronic >version. > >Project Gutenberg >ftp://ftp.datacanyon.com/pub/gutenberg/etext95/wwill10.txt >also has an electronic version of Wind in the Willows, which also >reveals that tea, buns, Giles (see below), world, better, along, and >inside did not turn up the quote. > >However, > http://users.ticnet.com/land-of-pi/teatray.html >credits the quote to Kenneth Grahame from 'The Wind in the Willows' >Go figure. > >And from >http://www.tealand.com/famous.htm > "Talk and tea is his specialty," said Giles. "He has Come along >inside... We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." > -The Wind in the Willows > >And finally, from >http://members.aol.com/kaisgo/tea.html > Come along inside... We'll see > if tea and buns can > make the world a better place. > -The Wind in the Willows > >Perhaps the quote is in the front matter? > >Shelley Greenhouse >database indexer, insomniac, and general busybody So, it looks like Giles said it: I don't remember who Giles is but at this point "Giles" sounds great to me! Thanks very much everybody, Michael P.S. I still don't have a given name for Olivier but that's less of a problem. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 04:00:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Eighteenth century indexing in Portuguese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I came across the following a few days ago at Torre da Tombo, the Portuguese=20 National Archives in Lisbon, and thought it might be interesting to the list=20 as an example of how one indexer organized his entries in the 18th century. The sixteenth century manuscript holdings of the archive section known as=20 Chancellaria were indexed in the eighteenth century. The following examples=20 are a few of the many pages of citations in a 1768 manuscript inventory inde= x=20 entitled: Indice Alfabetico dos 45 livros de Padroens, Doa=E7oes, Officias, e Merces d= a=20 Chancellaria de El Rey D. Filippe II. Escrivao [scribe] Euzebio Manoel da=20 Silva. Alvaro de Amorim. Alv de Tenca de Trigo. Liv. 43. f. 234. Alvaro de Araujo. Alv de Portr. do Cons. da India. L. 21. folha 5. Alvaro Arnao. Alv. de ordinaria. Liv. 25. f. 13. Alvaro de Athayde carta de Capitania. Liv. 14, f. 138. carta de capita=F5 de viagem da Armada Real. Liv. 43, f. 279. All these citations are sorted in the index by first and not by family name. =20 The citations give manuscript book number and folio number. One of the=20 abbreviations translates as: Cons. da India [Council of the Indies --=20 colonial ministry equivalent] another, Alv., may mean alcalde. The last=20 entry translates as "letter of the captain [or alternatively flagship] of th= e=20 voyage [expedition?] of the Royal Fleet." Since none of these entries were=20 of interest for my work, I didn't check the actual documents. LH Feldman currently (Oct 3-99) in Madrid=20 Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 09:29:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shelley found this quote at: > >http://www.tealand.com/famous.htm > > "Talk and tea is his specialty," said Giles. "He has Come along > >inside... We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." > > -The Wind in the Willows However, at the same site, on a different page (http://www.teatime.com/tea/sayings.html), I found that this is actually two quotes, the first from Agatha Christie's "Sleeping Murder:" "Talk and tea is his specialty," said Giles. "He has about five cups of tea a day. But he works splendidly when we are looking." (I believer Giles is referring to their gardener, but I am not absolutely certain.) The other quote begins with "Come along inside..." and is the WW quote everyone is referring to. Apparently the quote Shelley found had been accidentally merged with the Christie quote. To me, this whole think illustrates both the worth and the danger of Web searches. While the quote has been found and attributed to _The Wind in the Willows_, searches of the text of WW have not turned up the quote, and one search pulled up a quote which is actually two quotes squashed together. Internet searches can be very helpful, but there is also a lot of inaccuracy or deliberate misinformation on the Internet. That's why it is best to verify material found there through some other source if at all possible. Were I the author in this instance, unless I could personally locate the WW quote in the text of the book, I think I would choose to introduce it as "popularly believed to be from Kenneth Graham's _The Wind in the Willows_" or words to that effect. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 10:06:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991003003524.2707ca7e@pop3.nccn.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, All - I can't believe it, but I simply CANNOT find my old copy of The Wind in the Willows. Darn it! I agree with Shelly: the Web is a fine, fine place. I have to add that there is a great deal of inaccurate information on the Web. People copy and re-post such info. Quotes and their attributions are notoriously inaccurate. I am concerned about attributing that quote to some unknown person named Giles without being able to actually see the quote in context. All those tea-related quote sites do not show the full text; they may have copied the quotes--quite innocently--from one another. And the two reputable sites that have full text do not include the quote. I wonder if their is a British version and an American version of the book? That could be significant. Anyway, until I can see the quote in the book, I have to say that I really don't think it is correctly attributed. Sorry to be a poop-head. Ann > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf > Of Michael Brackney > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 3:42 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts > > > Dear Ann, Kara, Shelly Greenhouse, et al.: > > Thanks a lot for your efforts! Surprisingly to > me -- I haven't done much > of this -- the results of all your Web searches > varied considerably: from > not finding the quote in the text, and not even > some of the key words in > the quote, to finding the quote verbatim in its > entirety. It seems like > you, Shelly, found enough of the passage (plus an > extra "He has "!) to > provide the answer so I'm copying your message to > me back to everybody else > to show how continued searches in the face of > repeated denials can be > fruitful. > > > At 11:10 PM 10/2/99 -0400, Shelly Greenhouse wrote to me: > > > >The Web is a fine, fine place. The entire text > of WW can be viewed/read/ > >searched at > >http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbin/browse-mixed -new?id=GraWind&images=ima ges/modeng&data=/lv1/Archive/eng-parsed&tag=public > > > >Be sure to stretch your email window to get the whole thing on one line. >The text can then be searched for a) Piglet and b) the tea quote. Piglet >and the phrases "come along inside" and "tea and buns" are not found by >the search facility on my browser. A search for tea reveals it was had >by Toad, served by a unnamed girl on pages 166-168) in the electronic >version. > >Project Gutenberg >ftp://ftp.datacanyon.com/pub/gutenberg/etext95/wwill10.txt >also has an electronic version of Wind in the Willows, which also >reveals that tea, buns, Giles (see below), world, better, along, and >inside did not turn up the quote. > >However, > http://users.ticnet.com/land-of-pi/teatray.html >credits the quote to Kenneth Grahame from 'The Wind in the Willows' >Go figure. > >And from >http://www.tealand.com/famous.htm > "Talk and tea is his specialty," said Giles. "He has Come along >inside... We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." > -The Wind in the Willows > >And finally, from >http://members.aol.com/kaisgo/tea.html > Come along inside... We'll see > if tea and buns can > make the world a better place. > -The Wind in the Willows > >Perhaps the quote is in the front matter? > >Shelley Greenhouse >database indexer, insomniac, and general busybody So, it looks like Giles said it: I don't remember who Giles is but at this point "Giles" sounds great to me! Thanks very much everybody, Michael P.S. I still don't have a given name for Olivier but that's less of a problem. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Alphabetizing Dutch names Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Martha asked about how to alphabetize the name "Arend Th. van Leeuwen." The "van" in a Dutch (or Flemish) last name is analogous to the "von" in German last names. Therefore, you'd want to alphabetize as Leeuwen, Arend Th. van If you have space, you might also want to include van Leeuwen, Arend Th. _See_ Leeuwen, Arend Th. van just to cover all bases. Another possibility is to have a copy of _Webster's Biographical Dictionary_ handy and to check to see how names are alphabetized there. Of course, the person may not be "famous" enough for _Web Bio_ to include. For example, I don't find "Arend Th. van Leeuwen" in my dictionary. And a lot depends on how the author of the book refers to a particular person. In your book, Martha, if the author consistently refers to "van Leeuwen," then you might consider putting the name under "van," with a cross-reference from "Leeuwen." Which makes me think fo the name "Vincent van Gogh." Most of us would be inclined to index him under "van," because he is so often referred to as "van Gogh." However, from the perspective of a Dutch or Flemish speaker, this would be incorrect. _Web Bio_ has the artist under "Gogh, Vincent Willem van." Again, were you to get this name in a book, you might want to supply a cross-reference for your readers. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (mailto:hazelcb@digitalexp.com), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at once." (A. Brilliant) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Shocking, I wrote: > I wonder if their is a British version Good GRIEF!!!!!!!!!! Ann (blushing with grammatical embarrassment) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:07:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Eighteenth century indexing in Portuguese MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0D8F.8D906C40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0D8F.8D906C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Interesting example. I suspect the index reflects the information on names available during the earlier period and not indexing standards of the 18th century. Is that my own bias, or are there other 18th century indexes by first name? Max Dalrymple mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Sunday, October 03, 1999 2:11 AM Subject: Eighteenth century indexing in Portuguese I came across the following a few days ago at Torre da Tombo, the Portuguese National Archives in Lisbon, and thought it might be interesting to the list as an example of how one indexer organized his entries in the 18th century. The sixteenth century manuscript holdings of the archive section known as Chancellaria were indexed in the eighteenth century. The following examples are a few of the many pages of citations in a 1768 manuscript inventory index entitled: Indice Alfabetico dos 45 livros de Padroens, Doaçoes, Officias, e Merces da Chancellaria de El Rey D. Filippe II. Escrivao [scribe] Euzebio Manoel da Silva. Alvaro de Amorim. Alv de Tenca de Trigo. Liv. 43. f. 234. Alvaro de Araujo. Alv de Portr. do Cons. da India. L. 21. folha 5. Alvaro Arnao. Alv. de ordinaria. Liv. 25. f. 13. Alvaro de Athayde carta de Capitania. Liv. 14, f. 138. carta de capitaġ de viagem da Armada Real. Liv. 43, f. 279. All these citations are sorted in the index by first and not by family name. The citations give manuscript book number and folio number. One of the abbreviations translates as: Cons. da India [Council of the Indies -- colonial ministry equivalent] another, Alv., may mean alcalde. The last entry translates as "letter of the captain [or alternatively flagship] of the voyage [expedition?] of the Royal Fleet." Since none of these entries were of interest for my work, I didn't check the actual documents. LH Feldman currently (Oct 3-99) in Madrid Lawrenc846@aol.com ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0D8F.8D906C40 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Max Dalrymple.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Max Dalrymple.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Dalrymple;Max FN:Max Dalrymple EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:publiclibrary@crosswinds.net REV:19991003T170758Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF0D8F.8D906C40-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:07:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Fictional characters in nonfiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think someone asked a few weeks ago about the fictional character representing the author in the new Reagan biography. From the excerpts in Newsweek, I learned that there are at least two more fictional characters in the book as well. I saw the book at a bookstore yesterday. I checked the index briefly, and looked for the author's name. It is not in the index, but the indexer did include the name of the fictional author's son Gavin Morris (with subentries, too.) This seems to be consistent with how I, and most of us I believe, would treat an author's references to himself or herself (except in an autobiography), that is to not index them. I'm not sure what I would have done in this case, though. I think there are arguments on both sides. Best, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 13:46:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: queries: literary & fine arts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings again Kara and Ann: Thanks very much once again, this time for your caution in using material from the Internet. Under the circumstances I think it would probably be good to suggest sidestepping the issue, perhaps by changing I believe it was Piglet, in _Wind in the Willows_, who said so wisely, "Come along inside. We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." to I think it was someone in _The Wind in the Willows_ who wisely said, "Come along inside. We'll see if tea and buns can make the world a better place." Since the author chose to hazard what he thought was a good guess here, something like this should work fine, or at least a lot better. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:58:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Was it really the Indexer? (was: Fictional characters in nonfiction) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mary, You wrote: snip "I checked the index briefly, and looked for the author's name. It is not in the index, but the indexer did include the name of the fictional author's son Gavin Morris (with subentries, too.) " snip I wanted to make a comment that the indexer sometimes does include an author's name and it gets edited out. This happened to me. Perhaps we might refer to the index not containing the author's name rather than the indexer did not include the author's name. You did say "it is not in the index," which is closer to not saying the indexer left it out. Thank you! No, I am not the indexer of this book. But, still huffy over the editing job done on an index. And, yes, I did speak with the editor to enlighten her as to why I thought certain entries impotant to the compete fabric of the index and the author's excellent writing. But like many of you who are editors wrote me, the editor makes the final call! Live with it. However, I now say "the index does not contain" rather than "the indexer did not include" - having been burnt. 8-/ Ah, ain't personal growth funeth? Ardith ABBA Index Services Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 20:54:19 +0100 Reply-To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Diepeveen Subject: Re: Fees dilemma MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about fees. It was great to read about your ideas and suggestions about this thorny subject. I especially liked the idea to suggest to the editor that I would be willing to bid for jobs. This way I might be able to find out whether I am missing out on jobs because of my fees. Anyway, as someone rightly remarked, the £14 per hour is a minimum recommended fee, not a norm. And yes, the cost of living in the UK is very high especially in a oil city like Aberdeen. One is not likely to seek early retirement while earning £14/hour. So, I will not lower my fee, for the time being, but I will stop talking about hourly fees when negotiating with editors and just make the appropriate sums in my head. I must admit though, that I find it hard to negotiate with someone over the phone, whom I have never met. But I guess that will become easier with experience. Caroline Diepeveen Indexer Aberdeenshire (Scotland) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:52:41 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Was it really the Indexer? (was: Fictional characters in ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ardith, > However, I now say "the index does not contain" rather than "the indexer did > not include" - having been burnt. 8-/ Yes, I take your point and thank you for mentioning it. I'm sure this has happened to me too but I must have blocked those memories because the only specific case I can think of right now is one where names in the text were changed but the index was not. The result is that the index includes incorrect locators. I've also had the experience of pagination being changed after the index was complete, again with no updates to the index, and of poor proofreading of the index resulting in subentries set flush (not indented), making it look like I didn't know the alphabet. (I'm not trying to start a "bash editors" session, just sympathizing with Ardith.) I guess all we can do is continue to communicate with editors, and then focus on what we *can* control. Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:15:56 +0100 Reply-To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Diepeveen Subject: Re: Alphabetizing Dutch names In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, I don't want to complicate things, but here is just a note from the Dutch perspective on filing of Dutch names. The 'van' part of the name is a preposition, but is certainly considered to part of someone's name. Vincent van Gogh would always be referred to as Van Gogh by Dutch and Flemish speakers not as Gogh or Gogh, van. The filing, however, is a different matter. People's family names are generally not filed under their prepositions in Dutch publications. English sources seem to struggle with the 'van names'. My Chambers Biographical Dictionary, for example, seems to be terribly inconsistent with the filing of 'van names', but does have cross-references in each case. I do not know mr Arend van Leeuwen, it is a very common Dutch name, but whichever way you chose to file him, I would make a cross-reference from the alternative method as well. Hope this helps, Caroline Diepeveen Indexer Aberdeenshire (Scotland) PS.: Chambers has Van Gogh filed under 'Van'. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-index-l@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > [mailto:owner-index-l@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Hazel > Blumberg-McKee > Sent: 03 October 1999 18:01 > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Alphabetizing Dutch names > > > > Martha asked about how to alphabetize the name "Arend Th. van > Leeuwen." The > "van" in a Dutch (or Flemish) last name is analogous to the "von" > in German > last names. Therefore, you'd want to alphabetize as > > Leeuwen, Arend Th. van > > If you have space, you might also want to include > > van Leeuwen, Arend Th. _See_ Leeuwen, Arend Th. van > > just to cover all bases. > > Another possibility is to have a copy of _Webster's Biographical > Dictionary_ > handy and to check to see how names are alphabetized there. Of course, the > person may not be "famous" enough for _Web Bio_ to include. For example, I > don't find "Arend Th. van Leeuwen" in my dictionary. > > And a lot depends on how the author of the book refers to a particular > person. In your book, Martha, if the author consistently refers to "van > Leeuwen," then you might consider putting the name under "van," with a > cross-reference from "Leeuwen." > > Which makes me think fo the name "Vincent van Gogh." Most of us would be > inclined to index him under "van," because he is so often referred to as > "van Gogh." However, from the perspective of a Dutch or Flemish speaker, > this would be incorrect. _Web Bio_ has the artist under "Gogh, Vincent > Willem van." Again, were you to get this name in a book, you might want to > supply a cross-reference for your readers. > > Hazel > Hazel Blumberg-McKee (mailto:hazelcb@digitalexp.com), > Tallahassee, Florida, > USA > "I try to take one day at a time, but sometimes several days attack me at > once." (A. Brilliant) > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:21:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Bower Subject: Hello to All Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good afternoon, My name is Anne Bower and at the suggestion of my friend, Richard Evans, I have been subscribed to this list for the last few weeks. It is my hope that within the next year I will be joining you in the profession of Indexing. If the posts to this list are representative of the profession, you are a group of bright, dedicated, kind, and often funny people and I look forward to meeting many of you in person. It is my intention to start the USDC course in January expecting to be through it by the end of next year. Right now I and my husband, Dick, who will be joining me in indexing (when he can shake free of IBM) are being mentored and tutored by Richard. From the discussion topics on this list I must say I am awed by the scope of your work and your expertise. Dick and I are planning on attending the conference in Albuquerque next year hoping to have learned enough by then to not look too stupid. By way of introduction I'll give you a brief bio. My background is a BA in Anthropology and MA in Social Research (Evans and I were in the same Masters Program because he lived in Binghamton for many years and we became friends when Richard and Dick worked together at IBM.) My husband has a BS in Electrical Engineering and a MS in Computer Science. For the past nine years I have been publisher and editor of a small alternative press magazine, "the Body Politic." I loved my work, but it was all volunteer and now it's time to get a paying job again. That's all for now. If anyone wants to reach me off list our phone is 607-648-3858 and we live at 40 Treadwell Road, Binghamton, NY 13905. Regards to all, Annie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 14:06:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Fictional characters in nonfiction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was the one who ask about the new Reagan book and its index --thank you, Mary, for your response. I have yet to see the book but hope to this week. Apparently Morris not only made up fictional characters, but fictional events and possibly locations as well. It does seem to be a problem for an indexer to identify or not to identify when fact merges with fiction. Will future researchers be able to even use the book? If there's no distinction made in the index between fact and fiction and none apparently anywhere else, how can we actually have faith in that what is purported to be fact is indeed fact and not a figment of the author's imagination? Although I've now heard several good reviews of the book and listened to the author trying to defend his work, I still think that nonfiction morphing into fiction --unless it is clearly identified-- presents a dilemma for the indexer and reader alike. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com >I think someone asked a few weeks ago about the fictional character >representing the author in the new Reagan biography. From the excerpts in >Newsweek, I learned that there are at least two more fictional characters in >the book as well. I saw the book at a bookstore yesterday. I checked the >index briefly, and looked for the author's name. It is not in the index, but >the indexer did include the name of the fictional author's son Gavin Morris >(with subentries, too.) This seems to be consistent with how I, and most of >us I believe, would treat an author's references to himself or herself >(except in an autobiography), that is to not index them. I'm not sure what I >would have done in this case, though. I think there are arguments on both >sides. > >Best, >Mary >-- >* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com >* Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas >* Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 >* American Society of Indexers > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 15:50:35 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Fictional characters in nonfiction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have Morris's Reagan memoir. I am sure he deliberately used the term _memoir_ instead of biography. I have not finished the book, but I am enjoying the literary technique Morris used. All material is carefully documented in notes with sources given. It seems clear to me that information about Reagan himself is accurate and documented. The fictional Morris is of course just that. I can understand how a biographer might almost feel as though he was with his subject throughout his life after years of study. All biographers insert themselves into the biographies of their subjects, but not so obviously as has Morris. I plan to take the time to read the book thoroughly before saying more. So many have jumped to conclusions that the book was "weird" on the basis of reading excerpts. After all, what would be the point of more than one biography of a subject if each author does not take a unique viewpoint? Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:07:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, I always wonder why we *must* reread our own messages after we have sent them winging into cyberspace? If one could resist that temptation many blushes would be saved. Ann Truesdale, whose fingers seem to function totally of their own volition quite frequently ----- Original Message ----- From: Ann Norcross To: Sent: Sunday, October 03, 1999 1:00 PM Subject: Re: queries: literary & fine arts > Shocking, I wrote: > > > I wonder if their is a British version > > Good GRIEF!!!!!!!!!! > > Ann (blushing with grammatical embarrassment) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 22:20:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Hello to All In-Reply-To: <199910032031.QAA05680@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Good afternoon, > My name is Anne Bower and at the suggestion of my friend, > Richard Evans, I have been subscribed to this list for the last > few weeks. See, coming out of lurk mode doesn't hurt. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:18:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: inclusion of authors cited/discussed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When it comes to scholarly books, I'm familiar with the arguments and sentiments for and against including in the index authors whose works are quoted, discussed and/or cited in the text. However, I'm currently indexing a business book. Could some of you who do a lot of business-book indexing address this issue as it pertains to business books? Does one customarily include such authors, or leave them out? What criteria do you use to decide whether to include the material or not? If you include them, how do you handle discussions/mentions/citations of previous works by the author or authors of the work you are indexing? (These particular authors cite or refer to their own previous works a *lot*, and some of those works were co-authored by people not involved in this current work.) I don't want to commit a faux pas by leaving quoted/cited/mentioned author's names out if it's customary to include them. However, my inclination in this particular case would be to leave them out, except in the few cases where the work is discussed at length. Most of the mentions of authors and their works are citations, either in the text [Smith and Jones (1992) define organizational integrity as....] or in parentheses [Organizational integrity can be defined as.... (Smith and Jones 1992.)] I appreciate any input! TIA, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:02:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Website not-really-index examples MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Rhodes, Cathy" wrote: > > A few weeks ago we gathered some examples of "good" website > indexes. How about some examples of aids that are presented as > "site indexes" but aren't, really? I'm thinking of "indexes" that are > really more tables of contents, site maps, or guides to websites > than true indexes. I'd guess that nearly every link labeled "site index" (or similar) would fall into this category. I'm always surprised to find such a link actually leading to an index. Depending on my mood, this seems either a bad thing (because it adds to the general confusion about what a site index should be) or a good thing (because there's so much opportunity out there for indexers to add value and be paid well for it). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3.1, still the easiest way to create and maintain back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 10/4/1999 10:18 AM John and Kara Pekar wrote (in part): >When it comes to scholarly books, I'm familiar with the arguments and >sentiments for and against including in the index authors whose works are >quoted, discussed and/or cited in the text. However, I'm currently >indexing a business book. Could some of you who do a lot of business-book >indexing address this issue as it pertains to business books? Does one >customarily include such authors, or leave them out? What criteria do you >use to decide whether to include the material or not? The most important criterion is finding out what the editor wants. Most of the business books I've done include names of cited authors. In fact, some editors have asked for separate name and subject indexes. But, there's no substitute for asking your editor for his or her opinion. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:15:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: ASI Web site Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just a note to say that, a few minutes ago, I used the ASI Web site to hunt down some names of photographers. What an immense help this site is! The Getty indexes are terrific. I'd attempted to find six names in my _Webster's New Biographical Dictionary_, and only one appeared there. I wanted to verify the spellings, and sure enough, the Getty materials pointed up several misspellings. Great job in putting together such a useful Web site, ASI! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (mailto:hazelcb@digitalexp.com), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen at all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects." (Herodotus) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:43:38 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd ask the editor to clarify their policy to you. I also index business books and have found that most of the time authors are indexed. I've been told by the editors of these books that the marketing department likes to have as many authors cited as possible because it improves the sales for the book. On occasion, I've even been asked to list the authors from the back of the chapter references (a really big pain) just to make the marketing department happy. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: John and Kara Pekar To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Monday, October 04, 1999 4:05 PM Subject: inclusion of authors cited/discussed >When it comes to scholarly books, I'm familiar with the arguments and >sentiments for and against including in the index authors whose works are >quoted, discussed and/or cited in the text. However, I'm currently >indexing a business book. Could some of you who do a lot of business-book >indexing address this issue as it pertains to business books? Does one >customarily include such authors, or leave them out? What criteria do you >use to decide whether to include the material or not? If you include them, >how do you handle discussions/mentions/citations of previous works by the >author or authors of the work you are indexing? (These particular authors >cite or refer to their own previous works a *lot*, and some of those works >were co-authored by people not involved in this current work.) > >I don't want to commit a faux pas by leaving quoted/cited/mentioned >author's names out if it's customary to include them. However, my >inclination in this particular case would be to leave them out, except in >the few cases where the work is discussed at length. Most of the mentions >of authors and their works are citations, either in the text [Smith and >Jones (1992) define organizational integrity as....] or in parentheses >[Organizational integrity can be defined as.... (Smith and Jones 1992.)] > >I appreciate any input! > >TIA, >Kara Pekar >Wordsmith Indexing Services >jkpekar@crosslink.net > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:03:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kara: I leave them out unless the publisher/author wants them in. I customize according to their wishes. If no customization is specified, I leave the names out. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:06:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eighteenth century indexing in Portuguese Comments: To: mdalry@sr66.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It may be Portuguese convention of the 18th century or could reflect the=20 earlier period when somebody called Andres de Segovia was literally Andres=20 from Segovia. Surnames were certainly in use in sixteenth century Spain but=20 at times the way they were used could be very confusing. This is the only=20 Portuguese example I've seen from the 18th century. =20 In 18th century Spanish indices of 18th century manuscripts, of which there=20 are a great many examples in the Archivo General de Indias (Seville) and=20 elsewhere (e.g. Archivo General de la Nacion in Mexico City), indexing was b= y=20 both subject categories and individuals but I don't remember ever seeing non=20 inverted names. By the way the Spanish government of the 18th centuries was=20 issuing all sorts of guides on how to prepare official documents, so I expec= t=20 there is somewhere an 18th century guide to indexing Spanish official=20 documents. The system they use certainly seems to be pretty uniform and=20 standard. This system is not used in 20th century Spanish records. LH Feldman (who spent the day going through 20th century diplomatic=20 correspondence in the Archivo General de Administracion at Alcala de Henares= ) October 4, 1999 =20 Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 11:07:59 -0600 From: Max Dalrymple mdalry@SR66.COM writes--- Interesting example. I suspect the index reflects the information on names=20 available during the earlier period and not indexing standards of the 18th=20 century. Is that my own bias, or are there other 18th century indexes by=20 first name? Max Dalrymple mdalry@sr66.com -----Original Message----- From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date:=20 Sunday, October 03, 1999 2:11 AM Subject: Eighteenth century indexing in Portuguese I came across the following a few days ago at Torre da Tombo, the Portuguese=20 National Archives in Lisbon, and thought it might be interesting to the list=20 as an example of how one indexer organized his entries in the 18th century. The sixteenth century manuscript holdings of the archive section known a= s=20 Chancellaria were indexed in the eighteenth century. The following examples=20 are a few of the many pages of citations in a 1768 manuscript inventory inde= x entitled: Indice Alfabetico dos 45 livros de Padroens, Doa=C1oes, Officias, e Merces d= a=20 Chancellaria de El Rey D. Filippe II. Escrivao [scribe] Euzebio Manoel da=20 Silva. Alvaro de Amorim. Alv de Tenca de Trigo. Liv. 43. f. 234. Alvaro de Araujo. Alv de Portr. do Cons. da India. L. 21. folha 5. Alvaro Arnao. Alv. de ordinaria. Liv. 25. f. 13. Alvaro de Athayde carta de Capitania. Liv. 14, f. 138. carta de capitai de viagem da Armada Real. Liv. 43, f. 279. All these citations are sorted in the index by first and not by family name.=20 The citations give manuscript book number and folio number. One of the=20 abbreviations translates as: Cons. da India [Council of the Indies=20 -=1Fcolonial ministry equivalent] another, Alv., may mean alcalde. The last=20 entry translates as "letter of the captain [or alternatively flagship] of th= e voyage [expedition?] of the Royal Fleet." Since none of these entries were=20 of interest for my work, I didn't check the actual documents. LH Feldman currently (Oct 3-99) in Madrid Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 14:53:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: anonymity, fictional names and In-Reply-To: <199910020402.AAA13092@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Has anyone indexed this type of material? If so, how did you handle it? My >inclination is to index the names as follows: > >John D. (accountant), 56-58 >John D. (attorney; New York), 100-12 >John D. (attorney; Los Angeles), 250-55 >Sally S. (artist), 90-93 > That's what I learned. When you have no last name, you index by first name, even if there is an initial in place of last name. Aha! I just found it in Mulvany's _Indexing Books_ (p. 164): "Sometimes a text makes a reference to an individual by only a forename or a surname. If such references are indexable and the full name cannot be ascertained, the name is entered as given in the text and further identified by a qualifying phrase: Sarah (Lady Jane's handmaid)" I don't see why this wouldn't apply to pseudonyms. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:14:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen G Kasoff Subject: Re: ASI Web site Pardon my ignorance, but what is a Getty index? Suellen On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:15:19 -0400 Hazel Blumberg-McKee writes: >Just a note to say that, a few minutes ago, I used the ASI Web site to >hunt >down some names of photographers. What an immense help this site is! >The >Getty indexes are terrific. I'd attempted to find six names in my >_Webster's >New Biographical Dictionary_, and only one appeared there. I wanted to >verify the spellings, and sure enough, the Getty materials pointed up >several misspellings. > >Great job in putting together such a useful Web site, ASI! > >Hazel >Hazel Blumberg-McKee (mailto:hazelcb@digitalexp.com), Tallahassee, >Florida, >USA >"Very few things happen at the right time, and the rest do not happen >at >all. The conscientious historian will correct these defects." >(Herodotus) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:29:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all of you for replying so quickly. The consensus was to check with the editor (which I intended to do, but wanted some sense of "established practice" first.) Several people pointed out, on or off list, that the business field is one in which it may be helpful to have cited/discussed authors in the index. Reasons for this ranged from a reader's need to find certain quotes to a comment that the author of a business book probably doesn't want to make any "business enemies" by failing to include people in the index. Since many authors of business books are also consultants whose business could be impacted by such "enemies," I take the point. In this case, the editor does want these names included, except where citations are parenthetical. He also wants all references to the authors' previous works included (with the same criterion.) While it still seems a bit odd to me to include entries like: Smith, John on contracts on hiring on salaries (and so on; there are quite a number of them) in a book *by* Smith (after all, the whole book is "Smith, on something or other"), if that's what the customer wants, that's what they'll get! :-) Thanks again, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:19:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robert Brod Subject: ASI-Wisconsin Chapter, Fall Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <A reminder that earlybird registration rates end this Saturday, October 9th!>

American Society of Indexers, Wisconsin Chapter
Fall Conference 1999

Featured Speaker:=A0 Maria Coughlin
"Editing the Index: Basic Principles, and Specific Applications to
Medical and Scientific Indexes"

Saturday, October 23
8:30 a.m. - 1:30 pm
Lake Lawn Resort
2400 East Geneva St.
Delavan, WI=A0=A0 53115
262-728-7950
www.lakelawnresort.com

This participatory workshop focuses on the basic principles of editing an index and includes an editing "practicum," an opportunity for participants to edit an actual index draft. This practice session will be followed by discussion of the nitty gritty of medical and scientific editing conundrums, which are applicable to a broad range of indexing projects. Participants are encouraged to bring examples of editing problems, so that the group can benefit from tackling them.

Following the workshop, we will break into groups for roundtable discussions during lunch. The roundtable topics and facilitators are as follows (please indicate your preference on the form below):

Kay Wosewick: writing resumes
Barbara Littlewood: getting work
Sally Albertz and Edith Ericson: indexing genealogy
Carol Roberts: negotiating with clients

Conference Schedule:

8:30 to 9:00 am: Check-in

9:00:=A0 Maria Couglin, "Editing the Index: Basic Principles and Specific Applications"

12:00: Lunch and roundtable discussions

The morning session will include refreshments and a short break. Lunch is a Southwestern buffet, including both meat and vegetarian dishes.

Maria Coughlin has been indexing for more than 15 years. Her subject specialties are medicine (clinical practice books, textbooks, manuals, etc.), biology, and physiology. She currently has an indexing business that employs seven associate indexers. She has served ASI locally and nationally in various capacities for a total of 5 person-years, and looks forward to meeting both indexers and editors at her workshop.

REGISTRATION:

Postmarked by 10/9/99: $45 for ASI members; $50 for non-members
Postmarked after 10/9/99: $55 for ASI members; $60 for non-members

No registrations can be accepted after 10/19/99. Space is limited.

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Please return check (payable to Wisconsin Chapter-ASI) and this form to
Carol Roberts, 1908 E. Edgewood Ave., Shorewood, WI=A0=A0 53211.

You may cancel your reservation up until Friday October 15, and receive a full refund.

ACCOMODATIONS AND DIRECTIONS

Lake Lawn Resort, on 275 lakeside acres, is a year-round destination and conference resort. Conference participants may want to stay for part of the weekend to enjoy the facilities, which include a pool, golf, miniature golf, tennis, softball, basketball, sand volleyball, video game room, trail rides, petting farm, fishing, boating, shopping, and massage therapy. To make your arrangements please contact Lake Lawn Resort at 262-728-7950.

Directions:

From Milwaukee: I-43 southwest to Highway 50. Hard left on Highway 50 (east) for 1 mile.

From Madison: I-90 east to Janesville. Highway 14 S (turns into Highway 11) to Delavan. At first stop light in Delavan, turn right onto 7th St. Lake Lawn=A0 is approximately 2 more miles on your right, after the Geneva Lake.

From O'Hare Airport: I-94 north to Highway 50 (Kenosha exit). Turn left (west) onto Highway 50. Lake Lawn is approximately 45 minutes from I-94 and 8 miles west of Lake Geneva Kennel Club.

For more information, please contact Mary Brod, 262-784-0372, or rbrod@execpc.com




========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 18:15:15 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In this case, the editor does want these names included, except where >citations are parenthetical. The distinction your editor is making, between parenthetical and non-parenthetical citations of authors, is arbitrary and makes no sense. It will mean that some citations are included [Smith and Jones (1992) define organizational integrity as....], and others are excluded [Organizational integrity can be defined as.... (Smith and Jones 1992.)], merely on the basis of sentence structure. The choice between one and the other depends on the flow of the paragraph and gives no indication at all of the relative importance of the author or authors cited vis-a-vis the topic under discussion. May I suggest that, although editors' instructions are of course to be respected, it's often a bad idea to ask them for advice about indexing. Rather, make up your mind how best to tackle the problem, and put your proposed solution to them as a suggestion inviting the response you want to hear: "Yes, that's a good idea, do that." Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:41:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I> The distinction your editor is making, between parenthetical and > non-parenthetical citations of authors, is arbitrary and makes no sense. It > will mean that some citations are included [Smith and Jones (1992) define > organizational integrity as....], and others are excluded [Organizational > integrity can be defined as.... (Smith and Jones 1992.)], merely on the > basis of sentence structure. The choice between one and the other depends > on the flow of the paragraph and gives no indication at all of the relative > importance of the author or authors cited vis-a-vis the topic under > discussion. I agree, but in this case, I've been given a directive, and the editor and I have already discussed it at length. However, I noticed that when it was clear that the cited author's work was fairly important vis-a-vis the relevant topic, the name(s) were included within the text. In looking at the material, it seems that few authors were only cited parenthetically, and in those cases, it appeared that the work was cited more to bolster the author's point than because the topic was drawn primarily from the cited author's work. So in this case, I think most of the really important citations will have made it in, which makes me feel slightly better about it. However, may I borrow your phrasing for future discussions with editors on this issue? :-) Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:43:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Marketing and Tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I don't know how many of you might be aware that you can get tips for running your home and small office delivered right to your online mailbox. Today, I got this one, which although it's just common sense, is something we might just forget about marketing. These tips, as well as other tips on various topics come from TipWorld,and you can sign up to have any number of them delivered to your mailbox by going to TipWorld Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Psvenndex@AOL.COM Subject: Library of Congress-OT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Morning, I have been trying to find out if a certain author has their book (don't know the name of the work) in the Library of Congress, is this possible on-line. Thanks, Pamela Venneman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:00:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Madroco@AOL.COM Subject: Library of Congress Online Catalog MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Click here: Library of Congress Online Catalog ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:03:26 -0400 Reply-To: ibap@crystalsys.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Library of Congress-OT Comments: To: Psvenndex@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sure is. Go to http://www.loc.gov/ and search the catalog. Neat! And surprisingly fast. Iris Ailin-Pyzik Psvenndex@aol.com wrote: > > Good Morning, > I have been trying to find out if a certain author has their book (don't know > the name of the work) in the Library of Congress, is this possible on-line. > Thanks, > Pamela Venneman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: kbab@northnet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kate Babbitt Subject: Re: Library of Congress-OT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Pamela. Yes, the URL is http://lcweb.loc.gov/catalog/ They've recently improved this database so it is much faster than before. Enjoy. Kate Babbitt kbab@northnet.org Psvenndex@AOL.COM wrote: > Good Morning, > I have been trying to find out if a certain author has their book (don't know > the name of the work) in the Library of Congress, is this possible on-line. > Thanks, > Pamela Venneman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 10:52:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Fees dilemma Comments: To: Carolinediepeveen@compuserve.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroline wrote (snipped): I must admit though, that I find it hard to negotiate with someone over the phone, whom I have never met. But I guess that will become easier with experience. to which I respond: When I first started indexing the thought of talking, not to mention NEGOTIATING, with anyone over the phone was daunting. One thing I did was to make a list of points to be made during negotiations. I also wrote down, in ink so that I could see it, my bottom line price. It seems that if it was already in print before my very eyes, I was less likely to be talked into a lower price! I'd look at that number while talking and it would bolster my confidence. I'm not saying I never went lower, but at least I had a fighting chance! Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 08:39:51 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Chronological Biographical Directory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF0F0D.30FF6A60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF0F0D.30FF6A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of an "out-of-copyright" chronological biographical directory? This is a biographical directory which lists little information other than occupation, birth date, and death deate, time and place of birth and death. The good ones have indexes in the back by occupation and are sorted by year and day. The one I saw at the University of Texas PCL (which has the distinction of being one of the few buildings with a floor plan shaped like the map of Texas-not a recommended practice in library design) was rudimentary, but I've seen more recent publications that were better. Thanks in advance! Max Dalrymple, MLS 702 Sunset Road B-13 Tucumcari, NM 88401 505/461-1292 mdalry@sr66.com ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF0F0D.30FF6A60 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Max Dalrymple.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Max Dalrymple.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Dalrymple;Max FN:Max Dalrymple EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:publiclibrary@crosswinds.net REV:19991005T143950Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF0F0D.30FF6A60-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 07:35:19 -0700 Reply-To: indexer@ibm.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sherry L. Smith" Subject: Fw: PNW Chapter, Fall meeting announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fall Meeting, 1999 Pacific Northwest Chapter, American Society of Indexers Saturday, October 23 9:30AM-4:30PM Sylvia's Italian Restaurant 5115 NE Sandy Blvd Portland, Oregon 9:30-10:00 Registration & Refreshments & Socializing/Networking Time 10:00-10:30 Business meeting and special announcements 10:30-12:00 PUBLISHER/INDEXER RELATIONS This part of the meeting will be a panel of publishers and indexers. Microsoft Press and the Oregon Historical Society will describe how they work with indexers. Experienced indexers will describe how they work with publishers. There will be lots of time for questions. You can also ask questions in advance for the panel members. Send them via e-mail (see the registration form). 12:00-1:15 LUNCH with roundtable topics. Each table will discuss and share experiences and ideas on two topics-- MARKETING and OFFICE LAYOUT. Talk with other indexers about how you approach publishers and about how you set up your work space. Please come with questions and answers. Experienced, new and interested indexers will be at each table. 1:30-2.45 ERGONOMICS SPEAKER. Shawnalea Shelly, OT (occupational therapist), from Situs Inc. of Portland, will be our featured speaker. She has over eleven year's experience with the rehabilitation of hand and upper body injury. Shawnalea is now specializing in ergonomic care so she can help people avoid the kind of injuries she has seen in the past. She will tell us how to avoid repetitive stress injuries in our work. There will be time for questions. 2:45-3:00 BREAK with refreshments 3:00-4:15 INDEX COMPARISONS-PEER REVIEW This activity will occur in small, friendly groups of 2-3. In your group, you will have an opportunity to share your index, receive feedback on your product and do the same for someone else. Every effort will be made to match experience levels so that everyone benefits. Success will require that EVERYONE bring an index to share. Perhaps it should be one that you had problems with or perhaps one that you are most proud of or perhaps it's the last one you completed. If you are new to indexing, create a sample index from a book. If you absolutely cannot bring one you wrote, copy one that you admire. Bring THREE COPIES. 4:15-4:30 Thank yous and wrap up. 5:30---There will be an informal dinner for all interested indexers (family welcome if they are traveling with you). It will be at a restaurant near Sylvia's to be announced at the meeting. We will be seated as a group. Costs for the dinner are not included in the registration fee. DIRECTIONS: I5 south to I-84. I5 north to I-84. Take I-84 to 39th Avenue Exit. At the light, off the exit, turn left and go back over the freeway. There will be two more lights. At the 2nd light, (Sandy Blvd), go right and up to 51st. The restaurant is on the left hand corner of 51st and Sandy Blvd. From Eastern Washington and Oregon,g et yourself onto I-84 and travel west. Take the 43rd Avenue exit. The exit brings you to a light. Take a right at the light and go to the next light which is 47th Avenue. Take a left on 47th Avenue to the next light which is Sandy Blvd. Take a right on Sandy Blvd. and go to 51st. The restaurant is on the left hand corner of 51st and Sandy Blvd. For a map, use this URL http://portland.citysearch.com/E/V/PDXOR/0003/83/36/7.html If you want more detailed instructions from your location, call the restaurant at 503-288-6828. FEE: $25 ASI members; $30 non-ASI members. Includes lunch, program and two refreshment periods. Deadline for registration, October 16. Please fill out the registration form below. REGISTRATION FORM for the Saturday, OCTOBER 23, 1999 PNW/ASI MEETING Portland, Oregon Deadline for Registration: October 16 Please print clearly 1. Name ___________________________________________________ Business Name ____________________________________________ Address ____________________________________________ ____________________________________________ Phone ____________________________ Email _______________________________________________ 2. Is this your First Chapter meeting ____yes ____no 3. Your Indexing experience ____none ____1-2 yrs ____3-5 yrs ____6-10 yrs ____ 10 yrs +____ 4. Are you willing to be a meeting host for the day for someone who is attending for the first time? The only requirements are that you introduce yourself, introduce the person to other indexers and help the new person feel more comfortable in a group of strangers. ____Yes ____ No 5. Will you be attending the informal dinner which starts at 5:30 (not included in the Workshop fee) ? ____ Yes ____ No 6. WORKSHOP PAYMENT BY CHECK ___ Workshop Cost: Members $25 Non-Members $30 Send check (payable to Pacific Northwest Chapter/ASI) and this completed registration form by October 16th to PNW/ASI c/o Martha Osgood 2845 University Street Eugene, Oregon 97403-1669 7. Questions for Panel Members: Please email your questions to Sherry Smith, indexer@ibm.net . She will forward them to the panel participants. 8. Questions about Registration or about the Program as a whole: please contact Sherry Smith at indexer@ibm.net (or call 541-382-6414) or Martha Osgood at index@teleport.com (or call 541/484-1180). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:22:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Fees dilemma In-Reply-To: <19991005101334.04cce875.in@mail.louisa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >When I first started indexing the thought of talking, not to mention >NEGOTIATING, with anyone over the phone was daunting. One thing I did was >to make a list of points to be made during negotiations. If you care to share your key list of points I'd love to see it! Thanks. J. Naomi Linzer Indexing Services POB 1341 459 Redway Drive Redway, CA 95560 (707) 923-4361 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:45:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Fees dilemma In-Reply-To: <199910051625.MAA29758@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >When I first started indexing the thought of talking, not to mention > >NEGOTIATING, with anyone over the phone was daunting. One thing > I did was > >to make a list of points to be made during negotiations. > > If you care to share your key list of points I'd love to see it! Thanks. > Sounds like a topic for the conference. Anyone interested? Check out the ASI page at www.asindexing.org and follow the red pepper to the Call for Proposals page. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:10:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Reagan biography index Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This book was featured on two segments of the "Newshour" on PBS last night. The first segment was an interview with Edmond Morris; the second consisted of interviews with several presidential scholars and journalists about the book. In the first comment following the interview itself, Haynes Johnson was asked about the litrary device of the fictional character(s) used by Morris. He mentioned that the index contains names of a number of "Morris' --not just one". I found this comment interesting; it also points to my original question of how an indexer handles material of this type. Did the indexer know that these characters were fictional? If the only indication is in copy on the dust jacket, indexers don't normally see this information, and wouldn't necessarily pick up on the fact that non-existent characters were being introduced. Johnson seemed to feel that since the characters were in the index and even had footnotes about them in the text itself, they seemed to be legitimate people. In his view, with nothing to indicate otherwise, index entries are used to indicate fact, not fiction. The general consensus of the panel was that the bits about Reagan himself were entirely accurate but, because there is very little identification of the literary device being used, it tends to weaken the overall strength of the book. They also felt that the device, while still questionable, would have worked if it had been identified more clearly. And they closed with a word of warning: That this type of "biography" may occur again and that readers, historians, researchers (and indexers) should be aware that, in some instances, fact may indeed be fiction. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:11:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: anonymity, fictional names and Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My thanks both to Elliot Linzer and Carol Roberts for their answers to my earlier question. Carol writes: >Aha! I just found it in Mulvany's _Indexing Books_ (p. 164): "Sometimes a >text makes a reference to an individual by only a forename or a surname. If >such references are indexable and the full name cannot be ascertained, the >name is entered as given in the text and further identified by a qualifying >phrase: > > Sarah (Lady Jane's handmaid)" > >I don't see why this wouldn't apply to pseudonyms. > Thanks, Carol, for this suggestion. In fact, it is the section upon which I based my construction: > >John D. (accountant), 56-58 >John D. (attorney; New York), 100-12 >John D. (attorney; Los Angeles), 250-55 >Sally S. (artist), 90-93 > I was just a little uncertain as to the interpretation of the words "Obscure Names" which Mulvany uses as the section head. This is also the same section I used to back-up my suggestions on how to word index entries for fictional character names in books of literary criticism in the thread that ran a little earlier. Elliot's suggestion: > Pseudonyms have been used since Freud's day to refer to patients in >psychiatry books and in allied fields. I do not know of any specific >rule or convention for this situation. >using the >pseudonyms, uninverted, with an identification in parentheses, looks to >me like it does the job. > The idea of styling pseudonym entries, no matter what type of material they reflect, in this fashion was definitely in my mind and I was thinking about checking indexes in psychology case study books. I have a copy of the APA style book --which covers everything *except* indexes! My thanks again for the shared insights of both Carol and Elliot. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:19:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Timelines MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF0F34.4079BFA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF0F34.4079BFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill-Thanks! It's a long flat book (I wish I could remember the color; I feel like a patron) and - alas! - not too useful in PCL's first floor reference. Thanks for reminding me about Timelines; I think that's how I found the PCL book. I'm actually looking for something more substantial than what I found at PCL, something that might be updated - by someone - Isn't that a good job for me? I'm looking specifically at a specialty market. It isn't just that it's out-of-copyright; I'd like more historical references. References to people not famous now, but famous then. Thanks for thinking of me for your Spanish list. I've only gotten nibbles so far and have hooked my first freelance work. I wish I did know Spanish, but I am limited to English. Thankfully, I'm very good with that language. Believe it or not. I'll try the other references mentioned. Since I'm trying for a book i.d. it didn't try the obvious Internet resources. I should have. Thanks. Is anyone else as uncomfortable as I am about capitalizing Internet? Max mdalry@sr66.com ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF0F34.4079BFA0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Max Dalrymple.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Max Dalrymple.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Dalrymple;Max FN:Max Dalrymple EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:publiclibrary@crosswinds.net REV:19991005T191927Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF0F34.4079BFA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:43:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joyce Nester Subject: Re: Reagan biography index In-Reply-To: <199910051910.MAA03356@whale.fsr.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii hey ruby, we don't have this one. sorry! jn At 12:10 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >This book was featured on two segments of the "Newshour" on PBS last night. >The first segment was an interview with Edmond Morris; the second consisted >of interviews with several presidential scholars and journalists about the book. > >In the first comment following the interview itself, Haynes Johnson was >asked about the litrary device of the fictional character(s) used by Morris. >He mentioned that the index contains names of a number of "Morris' --not >just one". > >I found this comment interesting; it also points to my original question of >how an indexer handles material of this type. Did the indexer know that >these characters were fictional? If the only indication is in copy on the >dust jacket, indexers don't normally see this information, and wouldn't >necessarily pick up on the fact that non-existent characters were being >introduced. Johnson seemed to feel that since the characters were in the >index and even had footnotes about them in the text itself, they seemed to >be legitimate people. In his view, with nothing to indicate otherwise, >index entries are used to indicate fact, not fiction. > >The general consensus of the panel was that the bits about Reagan himself >were entirely accurate but, because there is very little identification of >the literary device being used, it tends to weaken the overall strength of >the book. They also felt that the device, while still questionable, would >have worked if it had been identified more clearly. And they closed with a >word of warning: That this type of "biography" may occur again and that >readers, historians, researchers (and indexers) should be aware that, in >some instances, fact may indeed be fiction. > >Lillian Ashworth >ashworth@pullman.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:34:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Reagan biography index I read about this book in the Washington Post this weekend, too. The name of the book is Dutch, and you'll probably see a lot about it, whether you want to or not. There is and will be a lot of controversy surrounding this book because it purports to be fact, but huge chunks of it are pure fiction and there is nothing in the text of the book to distinguish which is which. The notes (and apparently the index) even cite letters from fictional characters alongside real historical documents, again with no distinction between the two. From a historical and research perspective, this is appalling. The entire book must be thrown out as a viable resource because there is no way to know what is true and what isn't. This is especially sad because Morris was Reagan's official biographer and was actually in the Reagan White House after about 1985 and witness to some truly compelling historical events. The historian and political scientist in me weeps for the book he could have written-- an analysis of an increasingly controversial president at the height of his power and popularity from a talented and observant author with unprecedented access to insider information. Instead we get this claptrap. It's the Oliver Stone's "JFK" of the book world. From an indexing perspective, it does raise interesting and challenging questions. If this book is successful (and the publishers are certainly banking on that), we can expect to see more like it in the future. An indexer's job is to index the text they are given, but it would truly bother my conscience if I knew that part of what I was indexing was untrue and misleading-- fiction disguised as fact-- and I did nothing to warn the beleaguered user of the nature of the material. I'll be interested to hear other people's take on this. > -----Original Message----- > From: Lillian Ashworth [SMTP:ashworth@PULLMAN.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 3:11 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Reagan biography index > > This book was featured on two segments of the "Newshour" on PBS last > night. > The first segment was an interview with Edmond Morris; the second > consisted > of interviews with several presidential scholars and journalists about the > book. > > In the first comment following the interview itself, Haynes Johnson was > asked about the litrary device of the fictional character(s) used by > Morris. > He mentioned that the index contains names of a number of "Morris' --not > just one". > > I found this comment interesting; it also points to my original question > of > how an indexer handles material of this type. Did the indexer know that > these characters were fictional? If the only indication is in copy on the > dust jacket, indexers don't normally see this information, and wouldn't > necessarily pick up on the fact that non-existent characters were being > introduced. Johnson seemed to feel that since the characters were in the > index and even had footnotes about them in the text itself, they seemed > to > be legitimate people. In his view, with nothing to indicate otherwise, > index entries are used to indicate fact, not fiction. > > The general consensus of the panel was that the bits about Reagan himself > were entirely accurate but, because there is very little identification of > the literary device being used, it tends to weaken the overall strength of > the book. They also felt that the device, while still questionable, would > have worked if it had been identified more clearly. And they closed with > a > word of warning: That this type of "biography" may occur again and that > readers, historians, researchers (and indexers) should be aware that, in > some instances, fact may indeed be fiction. > > Lillian Ashworth > ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:00:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Re: Fees dilemma MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Caroline wrote (snipped): I must admit though, that I find it hard to negotiate with someone over the phone, whom I have never met. But I guess that will become easier with experience. And I respond: Unfortunately, experience can be the hard way to learn to negotiate. The price to pay, in my case, was a lot of work for very little money. I know now that I cannot rely only on an author's or editor's description of a book to decide on a price (although I had read this bit of advice many times!). My suggestion is to never negotiate a price without having seen several representative pages from different parts of the book. If I had seen sample pages I would have known that every page contained many foreign words and that the indexable endnote pages (smaller type size therefore denser text) represented 25% of the book. In future I will index the sample pages and doing so will undoubtedly bring up many of the questions I need to ask. This will also give me time to think rather than feeling rushed into quoting a price during the initial conversation with the author or editor. Live and learn, Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:36:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Alphabetizing specific names In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:21 PM 9/30/99 -0700, Martha wrote: >OK, I'm lost. How would you alphabetize the following names? > >1 - Masao Abe is a Buddhist theologian. Is this name Westernized? > >2 - Sri Aryyaratne is the neo-Gandhian leader in Sri Lanka, and Sri >Aurobindo is a Sri Lankan mystic. Is Sri an honorific? > >3 - And finally, Arend Th. van Leeuwen, a theologian. I'm tending toward >using L, unless he is known differently: > Leeuwen, Arend Th. van > Hello Martha (et al.): Thanks for asking your question: I really enjoyed reading all the fine responses. Re the wording of your question, I want to pass on a criticism by Bella Haas Wienberg of the misuse of the word "alphabetize" in the _Chicago Manual of Style_ -- a misuse that propagates thoughout indexingdom. In her review of the chapter on indexing in the current edtion of CMS (published in _The Indexer_, Volume 19 No. 2 of October 1994) Weinberg points out that deciding whether to index a name under one part or another is not a matter of how to _alphabetize_ the name but of how to _enter_ it (for subsequent alphabetization). All the best, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:36:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: inclusion of authors cited/discussed In-Reply-To: <199910050022.UAA26575@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:29 PM 10/4/99 -0400, Kara wrote: > >. . . > >In this case, the editor does want these names included, except where >citations are parenthetical. He also wants all references to the authors' >previous works included (with the same criterion.) While it still seems a >bit odd to me to include entries like: > >Smith, John > on contracts > on hiring > on salaries > (and so on; there are quite a number of them) > >in a book *by* Smith (after all, the whole book is "Smith, on something or >other"), if that's what the customer wants, that's what they'll get! :-) > Hello Kara: Such entries seem odd to me too but primarily for a different reason. The main problem I see is that these subs are to be used for indexing citations instead of discussions in the text, to which they logically and presumably refer, and for which we use them commonly. Although such constructions under the name of the author may look odd, the experience of looking up the references and finding only citations may be very frustrating. I've raised this problem before on Index-l: the ambiguity inherent in indexing citations with plain unformatted and/or unannotated page numbers in the same way that we often index substantive information about people in unmodified name-only headings. Except in works in which all name-only headings can be presumed to be citations, this practice can mislead readers into looking up name references with the expectation of finding substative discusssions. We could resolve this problem by annotating page references to citations with "w" -- for "work(s) cited" (as in "op. cit."). (I think "w" would work better than "c" because "w" would refer directly to the work itself, as opposed to the author's citation of it.) Thus, in your example: Smith, John, 234 (a reference to an about-the-author discussion on the last page) on contracts, 29w on hiring, 205w on salaries, 117w I acknowledge that using this construction would impose an initial demand on the reader but I believe that the added clarity would make it worthwhile. What do you (and others) think? All the best, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:02:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - I have been following, with great interest, the recent thread on Reagan's fictionalized biography "Dutch", especially Sharon Wright's eloquent cry of outrage and despair. Sharon concluded by saying: "An indexer's job is to index the text they are given, but it would truly bother my conscience if I knew that part of what I was indexing was untrue and misleading -- fiction disguised as fact-- and I did nothing to warn the beleaguered user of the nature of the material. I'll be interested to hear other people's take on this." Although I share Sharon's sense of... well... betrayal, it seems to me that from the indexer's point of view if one were to place a period, rather than a comma, after the word "given" in her first sentence, Sharon would have answered her own question. That is, "An indexer's job is to index the text [she] is given." Now, before Index-L rises in flames, perhaps I should amplify that a bit, because that statement is not as shallow or narrowly focussed as one might infer. In an excellent essay entitled "Inside the Whale" (I am going back about 40-50 years), George Orwell discussed his experiences writing about the Spanish Civil War. He observed that many of the purported factual events recorded in the newspapers and official Spanish dispatches (on both sides) either were not at all as reported or, in some cases, never took place. His conclusion was that historical truth never can be accurately known, even to those who were participants in, or witness to, the events. Now, please understand that I am not condoning the (as Sharon says) "appalling" disregard for making even a rudimentary distinction between fiction and fact. But my life experience suggests to me that truth is vanishingly elusive. Surely the events of this century (and I have been witness to more of them than most of you - a regrettable consequence of having been around longer) makes clear that truth (read: historical accuracy) is a very rare commodity. Even bedrock beliefs about, say, the events of World War II have been revealed, by subsequent research, to have been largely fictionalized. The historical precedents go back a long, long way. A bit of arcane WW II trivia: Very soon after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor there was a flurry of media (then it was called "newspaper and radio"} coverage of the heroic sacrifice of an Army Air Force pilot named Colin Kelly, who crashed his early-model B-17 into an Axis (I believe Japanese) warship, thereby striking a blow for Democracy against a despicable and treacherous enemy. For a while Colin Kelly was everybody's hero. Turned out, of course, that there never was such a pilot or such an event; the entire thing was a so-called "morale booster." The current phrase for professional liar is "spin doctor." The whirring sound you hear is Aesculapius spinning in his grave. So we have not just discovered sin. With great care and earnestness we unknowingly index historical fiction all the time. What strikes me as unusual in the biofiction novel "Butch" (my descriptor, but you're welcome to it) it its extraordinary and apparently unconscionable blatancy. So where does the professional indexer fit into all of this? Well, I surely can't decree a response, but I can suggest some alternative points of view. I would opine that in this, as in most of life's decisions, one must make some distinction between professional/public responsibility and personal ethics. They are not unrelated, and often the distinction blurs. Possibly no other conflict has so bedeviled this sorry planet as this dilemma. Whether we are speaking of the massive horrors of the Nuremberg War Crimes trials, or the minor bureaucratic beancounter who is instructed to refuse HMO coverage of a diagnostic procedure or treatment, these crises (and failures) of conscience haunt us all. Many postings on Index-L have expressed the respondents' objections to indexing texts that they find unacceptably offensive. That is a matter of conscience. We can (and sometimes do) refuse to participate in any way in bringing an objectionable text before the public, regardless of whether or not our contribution is made anonymously. As Nathan Hale once said "I do not always agree with your decision not to index this book, but I will defend with my life your right to refuse it." Or words to that effect... Of course I believe that the fundamental responsibility for Truth and Honesty in Publishing (!!) rests, not with the indexer, but with the author and the publisher. So we can, to a large degree, rest our consciences with the thought that we are, after all, hired guns, and not principals on the drama. But others will say "No! That would be wimping out! Just because we are anonymous hirelings (like that appellation?), we still must answer to our individual consciences. Therefore we will not lend our hands and our hearts to these enterprises!" There are, of course, countervailing imperatives. As Hamlet said: "Thus doth, not conscience, but the need to pay our bills make cowards of us all." So it seems to me that in this, as in so many things, we despair in public and make our personal decisions in private, each answering as best we can to the conflicting dictates of our circumstances and our conscience. Your thoughts? Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:25:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Mega Typo! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - Covered with egg... Re Reagan pseudobio: "Dutch", not "Butch"! Sorry. Spellchecker of no help here! (No matter how damned careful.....) RR ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:53:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem I see is this one: It is my standard practice to identify fictional characters with "(fict.)" after their name. This alerts the reader to the fact that the individual is, indeed, fictional. (I'm not talking about indexing, for example, a novel, where this practice would be irrelevant.) Now we have a biography of a historical figure alongside a fictional character. I should be indexing Morris as "Morris (fict.)". And, in fact, if I were indexing the Reagan biography, that is what I would do. If I did not indicate that Morris was fictional, I would feel I was misleading the reader. Of course, this presupposes that I am given the information that Morris is fictional. Which gets us back to the point that it is the editor's responsibility to let the reader know of the fictional character. Clearly we all are aware of the problem. But what happens when the school student, who is not cognizant of the controversy reads the book? Does it matter that the student doesn't know a character is "fictional"? I think it does. Why? Because the truth matters. Each of us creates an identity based on our perception of the truth. What we do with it is our business. But I think that having the truth available is important. Think about what happens to an adopted child who first finds out that truth. It often leads to significant questioning of identity. "If you're not my real parents, then who is the real me?" The problem I see with this book is that there is no indication **in the text itself** that the truth has been played with. It's just like the Soviets erasing people from photographs when they were out of favor. Anyway, enough of a rant. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > Of course I believe that the fundamental responsibility for Truth and > Honesty > in Publishing (!!) rests, not with the indexer, but with the author and the > publisher. So we can, to a large degree, rest our consciences with the > thought that we are, after all, hired guns, and not principals on the drama. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:08:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") In-Reply-To: <9c69bd64.252beb7a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree to much of what was said on the unknowability of history and the wrongness of intentionally adding to it. But are you sure there was no Colin Kelley? My impression is that there had been such a person, whose B17 crashed in the Pacific, but that whether this had been his intent (as opposed to the intent of Japanese gunners) and whether he landed on a Japanese Destroyer was in dispute. Haven't seen anything on the subject in a generation other than statements by Colin Powell, so I may have missed something. Thanks, Marvant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:42:37 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Reagan biography index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just begun reading "Dutch," but the fictional characters seem perfectly obvious to me. Perhaps, however, it is because I heard so many interviews talking about the technique that I was prepared for it. I should think the indexer would have been aware, and I agree that s/he should have distinguished them in the index somehow. I actually had this problem in the first published book I indexed (Out of the Darkness: The Story of Mary Ellen Wilson). The author had interspersed some fictional characters to represent people who were described in the research as "a social worker" or "a doctor." The author had given them names in the book, but he had me remove these names from the index so they would not become confused with the real people. I would love to hear from the indexer of "Dutch" to see if the decision to make no distinction between real and fictional characters was intentional. If I were doing "Darkness" today, I believe I would use the technique of identifying them as (fict.) or putting the names in quotations with an explanatory headnote. This is an issue many indexers face especially when indexing what Hazel Bell calls "biographies and other stories of human lives." Jean Middleton http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:52:47 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF0F84.5846D500" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF0F84.5846D500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't read the original comment, but if Colin Kelley crashed in the Pacific he is more likely to be George H. W. Bush who, as I understand it, crashed in the Pacific, than Colin Powell. The name was probably chosen to be intentionally misleading. Just as no one talks about his relationship to Benedict Arnold. -----Original Message----- From: marvant duhon To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 8:21 PM Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") > I agree to much of what was said on the unknowability of history >and the wrongness of intentionally adding to it. But are you sure there >was no Colin Kelley? My impression is that there had been such a person, >whose B17 crashed in the Pacific, but that whether this had been his >intent (as opposed to the intent of Japanese gunners) and whether he >landed on a Japanese Destroyer was in dispute. Haven't seen anything on >the subject in a generation other than statements by Colin Powell, so I >may have missed something. > Thanks, > Marvant ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF0F84.5846D500 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Max Dalrymple.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Max Dalrymple.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Dalrymple;Max FN:Max Dalrymple EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:publiclibrary@crosswinds.net REV:19991006T045246Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF0F84.5846D500-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 21:27:01 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Reagan biography index In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D82630@LNXCHOEXCH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Wright wrote: > There is and will be a lot of controversy surrounding this book because it > purports to be fact, but huge chunks of it are pure fiction and there is > nothing in the text of the book to distinguish which is which. The notes > (and apparently the index) even cite letters from fictional characters > alongside real historical documents, again with no distinction between the > two. ... > I'll be interested to hear other people's take on this. There's a paragraph in one of the _Beachcomber_ books by J.B. Morton which sends up the Hollywood biopic industry: I don't have it to hand but it goes something like this: The scene is a little French country town: the year is 1802. The doctor arrives home in the rain in the early hours of the morning, muddy and exhausted, but triumphant. "It was a long confinement," he tells his beautiful wife, "but it was worth it. Do you know who was born today? Victor Hugo!" I think we have a touch of the same thing here. Was Reagan at college really so interesting that one of his classmates would take the time and trouble to record all the details of his everyday life? Or is this just the Great Man theory being applied after the fact? Jon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:45:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") In-Reply-To: <002b01bf0fb6$a42f6fe0$155542cf@mdalrysr66.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My reference to Colin Powell was misunderstood. When General Powell was in the spotlight because of his role in the Gulf War and his being urged to enter politics, he several times said how he changes the pronunciation of his first name to identify with his hero Colin Kelley, and how whites treated him well because of it, and how this was a significant step towards his successful career in the Army. This may or may not have been true of course, because General Powell spent years of his career as an extremely successful Public Affairs Officer during the Vietnam War lying about who controlled what area, covering up the My Lai Massacre, etc. My question was primarily as to where the claim that there had never been a Colin Kelley came from. It is not in the slightest unusual for US forces to exaggerate by a factor of 2 or 3 the enemy forces destroyed in an action even today, which is being much more modest than is usual for other countries, but I had not heard of Kelley being invented of whole cloth. Best, Marvant On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Max Dalrymple wrote: > I haven't read the original comment, but if Colin Kelley crashed in the > Pacific he is more likely to be George H. W. Bush who, as I understand it, > crashed in the Pacific, than Colin Powell. The name was probably chosen to > be intentionally misleading. Just as no one talks about his relationship to > Benedict Arnold. > -----Original Message----- > From: marvant duhon > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Date: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: A Note on Ficitonalized biography (Was: Reagan biography > index") > > > > I agree to much of what was said on the unknowability of history > >and the wrongness of intentionally adding to it. But are you sure there > >was no Colin Kelley? My impression is that there had been such a person, > >whose B17 crashed in the Pacific, but that whether this had been his > >intent (as opposed to the intent of Japanese gunners) and whether he > >landed on a Japanese Destroyer was in dispute. Haven't seen anything on > >the subject in a generation other than statements by Colin Powell, so I > >may have missed something. > > Thanks, > > Marvant > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:09:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Alphabetizing Comments: To: Michael Brackney In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.19991005143133.2fafe2c0@pop3.nccn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good point, Michael - and many thanks (again) to others who also responded to my question. Martha Osgood Back Words Indexing >... Weinberg points out that >deciding whether to index a name under one part or another is not a matter >of how to _alphabetize_ the name but of how to _enter_ it (for subsequent >alphabetization). > >All the best, > >Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:59:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marilyn Flaig Subject: Re: Reagan biography index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am working on an index right now on a book about the effects of climate change. It contains descriptions of an envisioned storm which would herald a new ice age. This is a fictional scenario but mentions real places and organizations. I feel that I must index this "fictional" information since it is a significant part of the book--and I feel that people would want to be able to locate information on how such an event might impact places like New York etc., as well as how organizations might respond. Marilyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" Subject: Re: A Note on Fictionalized biography (Was: Reagan biography index") This discussion of the Reagan biography reminds me of the stink raised several years ago over film 'docudramas'. These were put across as documentaries containing fact with some dramatization of 'actual' events. The worst example of this was the nasty and racist "Death of a Princess". Luckily, though they are still around, most people realize that they are simply fiction. There will always be those who will look at 'docudramas', or even films that purport to be nothing but fiction, and see pure fact. I imagine the same will be true of this form of biography. I share Sharon's cry of despair, but as an historian I have had to use autobiographies in my work and you can't beat those for fictionalization of events. You might hope for better from a fellow historian but I would never bet on it. I would have to agree with Bob Richardson, if you object strongly to a work don't index it, otherwise you just have to do your best and pray that the reader has some common sense. I actually find the style of the Reagan ironic. It seems fitting that the first major biography of a man who was known to recount fictional events as real would have a biography with the much the same problem. Brian M. Peck Technical Librarian/Indexer North Carolina General Assembly brianp@ms.ncga.state.nc.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:57:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Reagan biography index That's a good point. It's a similar situation. But in your situation the fictionalized information is clearly indicated, and you could, if you felt compelled, put something in the index entries to indicate that the reference is to a hypothetical scenario. That isn't unusual in science writings and not even in the social sciences (How would WWII have been different if the United States had entered earlier? etc. Historians and philosphers love to debate hypothetical scenarios!). The difference here is material that is NOT clearly defined as fictional but which is, in fact, solely the product of the author's imagination. When a five year old does it we call it "lying." I would be tempted to create an index entry called "Big Fat Lies" and index all such material underneath it, but I don't suppose that would get me any more work from either that author or that publishing company! :-) It's a tough call, and as Rob so eloquently pointed out, a personal one. I'm not sure what I'd do if faced with such a situation. I'd like to think I'd take the high road, refuse to be a party to such actions and send the project back with instructions to find another indexer, but realistically that would probably depend on how badly I needed the money and the contact with the author/publisher. It's an interesting dillemma, though. > -----Original Message----- > From: Marilyn Flaig [SMTP:MFIndexer@AOL.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:00 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Reagan biography index > > I am working on an index right now on a book about the effects of climate > change. It contains descriptions of an envisioned storm which would > herald a > new ice age. This is a fictional scenario but mentions real places and > organizations. I feel that I must index this "fictional" information > since > it is a significant part of the book--and I feel that people would want to > be > able to locate information on how such an event might > impact places like New York etc., as well as how organizations might > respond. > Marilyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 08:23:36 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: A Note on Fictionalized biography (Was: Reagan biographyindex") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Brian Peck (Research/Library)" wrote: > I actually find the style of the Reagan ironic. It seems fitting that > the first major biography of a man who was known to recount fictional > events as real would have a biography with the much the same problem. > > Isn't this exactly the reason Morris chose this style? No other seemed to > fit the subject so well. This, while the only authorized biography, is not > the first major one. Several others (Anne Edwards and Lou Cannor, for > example) have recounted the facts of Reagan's life. Morris felt the need > to delve more deeply and finally decided that this technique of using > scenarios and fictional characters created the right feeling for Reagan. I > am reading the book and find it both entertaining and informative. I have > no difficulty differentiating between fact and fiction and the author's > perceptions. What would have been the point of merely reciting facts > already well known? Jean Middleton http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:59:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Colin Kelly redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - Well, I am amused that after Sharon Wright's eloquent cry of despair over the fictionalization of Reagan's official biography, and my [I thought] reasonably balanced response, the bulk of the Index-L postings seem to have focussed on the Colin Kelly question, and largely have stepped past the point of what Sharon and I were trying to say (Brian Peck's thoughtful answer, and some others, excepted). I cannot give you a satisfactory attribution for my comment re Kelly. I remember having read that many years ago. I also remember having seen the original newspaper reports (yes, I was old enough to read in 1941). But I am surprised that Colin Powell viewed Colin Kelly as some sot of role model. Considering the many persons more directly relevant to Powell's career (Patton, Marshall, Eisenhower, even Heinz Guderian, the German Panzer leader) I find it a tad odd that he would have picked Colin Kelly. Most successful generals tend to emulate persons who have crushed the enemy, not those who have immolated themselves. I even - perish the thought- - could have been mistaken! But don't gloat yet - - this might be a bit difficult to unwind, because references to old newspaper reports are pointless... And some historians tend simply to quote each other, thus perpetuating the original error. Probably fun to try checking it out. In the context of apocryphal war heroes, let us not overlook that equally famous and revered Magyar freedom fighter Colin Ouskopi, who crashed his disabled fighter plane into a Nazi ammunition train on the outskirts of the Hungarian village of Buns, thereby frustrating von Manstein's Fourth Panzer Army's drive to cut the L'vov-Odessa railroad. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:45:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: IndexJim@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Colin Kelly redux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI. There also is a school in Eugene, Oregon named for Colin Kelly. "By John L. Frisbee, Contributing Editor Colin Kelly He was a hero in legend and in fact. On the morning of Dec. 10, 1941, six B-17Cs of the 14th Bomb Squadron, 19th Bomb Group, sat in the rain at a rough landing strip near San Marcelino on the Philippine island of Luzon. The crews had spent the night without food, sleeping in or under their planes. Of the war situation they knew little except that Japan had attacked Clark Field and other installations near Manila on Dec. 8--Pearl Harbor on the 7th--and some 400 Japanese aircraft had destroyed most of the US B-17s and pursuit planes. Squadron Commander Maj. Emmett "Rosy" O'Donnell Jr., had flown to Clark before daylight to get orders for his squadron. He radioed his pilots to proceed to Clark at daybreak. Only three of the B-17s were allowed to land. They were flown by Capt. Colin P. Kelly Jr., and Lts. George E. Schaetzel and G. R. Montgomery. Captain Kelly, a 1937 graduate of the US Military Academy and a former B-17 instructor, was one of the most experienced and respected pilots of the 19th Bomb Group. An imminent air attack sent the three bombers off to their respective targets before refueling and bomb loading were completed. Captain Kelly had only three 600-pound bombs aboard and orders to attack airfields on Formosa (Taiwan), some 500 miles north of Clark. The mission would earn Colin Kelly a place in American history and legend. In the confusion of the early days of the Pacific war, Kelly was credited with sinking a Japanese battleship and with award of the Medal of Honor. Overnight he became a national hero. It later was determined that Kelly and his crew did not sink a battleship, nor was he awarded the Medal of Honor, although some still believe both. In fact, Colin Kelly was recommended for the Medal of Honor by Maj. Gen. Lewis H. Brereton, commander of the US Far East Air Forces. The award he received was the Distinguished Service Cross, on the orders of Gen. Douglas MacArthur's headquarters. This is what actually happened, as told in mission debriefings by members of Kelly's crew and in an official report of the mission prepared in February 1942. For Captain Kelly and his crew, it was a solo mission deep into territory where the Japanese held absolute air superiority. They had no fighter escort. By Dec. 10, there were only 22 flyable P-40s and a few obsolete P-35s left. As they flew north toward Formosa, Kelly and his crew passed over a large Japanese landing in progress at Aparri on the north coast of Luzon. The presence of an enemy carrier in the vicinity had also been reported. Kelly radioed Clark Field for permission to attack the landing force, which was supported by several destroyers and a large warship, thought to be a battleship, bombarding the coast from several miles offshore. After two calls to Clark that brought only a response to stand by, Kelly told the crew they were going ahead on his decision to attack the battleship--actually a cruiser. Kelly made two dry runs at 20,000 feet, giving bombardier Sgt. Meyer Levin time to set up for an accurate drop. On the third run, he told Levin to release the bombs in train. As best the crew could tell, two of the three bombs bracketed the ship with one direct hit. Smoke prevented more accurate assessment. The B-17 then headed for Clark Field, its bomb bay empty. As it approached Clark, the bomber was hit by enemy fighters. The first attack killed TSgt. William Delehanty, wounded Pfc. Robert Altman, and destroyed the instrument panel. A second attack set the left wing ablaze. The fire spread rapidly into the fuselage, filling the flight deck with smoke. Captain Kelly ordered the crew to bail out while he still had control of the doomed bomber. Fire began to engulf the flight deck. SSgt. James Halkyard, Pfc. Willard Money, and Private Altman went out the rear. Navigator 2d Lt. Joe Bean and Sergeant Levin, after a time-consuming struggle, pried open a stuck escape hatch and took to their chutes. The nose of the aircraft was now an inferno. Colin Kelly remained at the controls as copilot 2d Lt. Donald Robins moved to the upper escape hatch. At that moment, the bomber exploded, hurling a badly burned Robins clear of the aircraft. The B-17 crashed about five miles from Clark Field. Colin Kelly's body was found at the site. The early report of his heroism, which inspired a nation in shock, is in no way diminished by the actual events of that December day in 1941. Alone and far from friendly territory, he attacked and damaged a heavily armed ship, then sacrificed his own life to save his crew. Thanks to Robert Altman, a member of Capt. Colin Kelly's crew, captured by the Japanese during the surrender of the Philippines, and for 40 months a POW in Japan." Published June 1994. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:59:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Venting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well, folks, it finally happened to me. :-( I've been indexing a four-volume standard teaching/reference work for about ten years now...maybe longer. My work has always been highly praised, and my fee was never disputed. The company that produces the books was sold and broken up, and this particular series was assigned to another company. They kept me on as indexer for the past two years, but once again, the responsibility for the books has shifted to somebody else...and I am now told that I have been overcharging and that they can find somebody to do this work at the "going rate" of $1.50 a page. If I'm not willing to meet that price, too bad. This amounts to about a 60% reduction in pay...never mind that the "going rate" for indexing this type of material hasn't been $1.50 a page in well over ten years. I was quite willing to negotiate a somewhat lower fee, based on the repetitiveness of the work from year to year, but had expected to be working with, at most, a dollar difference. This project occupied about 50% of my work time for about 4 months of each year. Now I am left with a huge hole to fill in my calendar, to say nothing of the frustration and disappointment that years of good work could just be waved aside in this manner, and the rather large loss of income. There's nothing here to negotiate, really, and there's nothing I can do about any of this, but I just felt like moaning and wringing my hands in front of a sympathetic audience. Thanks for your indulgence. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:30:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Venting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsi, Haven't got a solution, but it sounds like you could use a hot fudge sundae w/walnuts and real whipped cream, and a large hug! In my piece in Keywords I said: "... Increasingly, publishers are not handling book production in-house. So indexers who have painstakingly built up excellent working relationships with publishers and editors suddenly find themselves working, if at all, for unknown packagers. We get swept up in this pressure cooker and it is reflected in our rates, in our deadlines, and in our levels of stress. " Come to think of it, take TWO large hugs (two sundaes would be overkill)! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:38:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Law Subject: Re: Venting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsie, Perhaps you should send these folks a copy of the ASI survey of professional indexers to show them how they are clearly off the mark with their "going rate." I am a good deal less experienced than you at this business and I could not afford to work at that rate on such a time-consuming project even if only for the experience of it. I urge, urge, urge indexers with any sense of professionalism at all to refuse to work for such low per hour rates. It smacks of scab-ism to me. IMHO Carolyn Law CLLaw Manuscript Services clawmss@cs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:44:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: Venting In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991006205904.00f1d6ac@slonet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > ... the frustration and disappointment that years of good work could >>just be waved aside in this manner...and there's nothing I can do >about any of this, but I just felt like moaning and wringing my hands >in >front of a sympathetic audience. You got it, Sonsie, this is a sad story. My sympathies to you. Martha stifling a snarl at publishers who demand one-sided loyalty and focus solely on the bottom line ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:16:28 -0500 Reply-To: dlwitt@concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Venting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Despite the loss of income, you are much better off refusing to work for them. You could do better waiting on tables or even (gasp) working in the local library. If indeed they have someone who will do it for that amount (and they may be bluffing), they will not get a quality product. And if they are truly exploiting someone to that extent, there is no reason to aid and abet them in their endeavor. Quit now while you are ahead. All of us have gone through lean times, but I will quit indexing before I work at that rate again. Diana Witt Sonsie Conroy wrote: > Well, folks, it finally happened to me. :-( > > I've been indexing a four-volume standard teaching/reference work for about > ten years now...maybe longer. My work has always been highly praised, and my > fee was never disputed. The company that produces the books was sold and > broken up, and this particular series was assigned to another company. They > kept me on as indexer for the past two years, but once again, the > responsibility for the books has shifted to somebody else...and I am now > told that I have been overcharging and that they can find somebody to do > this work at the "going rate" of $1.50 a page. If I'm not willing to meet > that price, too bad. > > This amounts to about a 60% reduction in pay...never mind that the "going > rate" for indexing this type of material hasn't been $1.50 a page in well > over ten years. I was quite willing to negotiate a somewhat lower fee, based > on the repetitiveness of the work from year to year, but had expected to be > working with, at most, a dollar difference. > > This project occupied about 50% of my work time for about 4 months of each > year. Now I am left with a huge hole to fill in my calendar, to say nothing > of the frustration and disappointment that years of good work could just be > waved aside in this manner, and the rather large loss of income. > > There's nothing here to negotiate, really, and there's nothing I can do > about any of this, but I just felt like moaning and wringing my hands in > front of a sympathetic audience. Thanks for your indulgence. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:54:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Venting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As hard a pill as it is to swallow, this is a "character-strengthening experience". One of life's little favors to us that in the long run cause us to seek out greener pastures and move ahead. I know that sounds corny, but things have often happened to me that way. When a door slams, there are often new challenges right behind it. You will do the right thing to refuse to capitulate to this unprofessional rate they are offering you. I would let it go and look for clients who appreciate your skill and expertise. They are out there for you. Market, market, market, ....... and new clients will come to you. New challenges, new projects. Janet Perlman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:01:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: Venting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsie said: > > I've been indexing a four-volume standard teaching/reference work for about > ten years now...maybe longer. My work has always been highly praised, and my > fee was never disputed. The company that produces the books was sold and > broken up, and this particular series was assigned to another company. They > kept me on as indexer for the past two years, but once again, the > responsibility for the books has shifted to somebody else...and I am now > told that I have been overcharging and that they can find somebody to do > this work at the "going rate" of $1.50 a page. If I'm not willing to meet > that price, too bad. > I have a sneaking suspicion that the way they are going to get someone to do the job at a reduced rate is to use your original indexing (i.e. brain-work) and simply re-jig it by adding the updated information. (I do quite a bit of this type of work, but only (a) after confirmation from the client that the original indexer has been approached and is not interested in doing the new edition (b) charging the current recommended rate -- actually I charge a little more). Morally, I believe that the earlier indexes are your intellectual property, but legally I believe it has never been tested. Since you are unlikely to get further work from these clients, in your place I would be tempted to call their bluff and forbid them to use my earlier indexes as a basis for new indexes, if only for the sake of revenge. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:05:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dorothy Dirienzi Subject: Re: Venting MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF1057.9D5F35C8" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1057.9D5F35C8 Content-Type: text/plain There was a great discussion on CSPAN Book TV this past weekend by the woman who is the director of Beacon Press. Her lecture was titled Publishing 101, and listening to her flashed me right back to my personal experiences in medical publishing merger mania (which could be any publishing merger mania). The keywords to her talk were "synergy" and "bottom line." The end result is that, as with every other aspect of our economy and culture, money talks and talk walks. Being set aside abruptly after investing years of work in putting out quality products that one literally wrenches into existence through determination, sweat, neuronal wear-and-tear, and the endless learning of how to use computer hardware and software is a bitter hurt. The feeling of betrayal and outrage can be overwhelming. No doubt many of us have clung to editorial and indexing skills after we were flung into the freelance sea by idiot corporate "captains of industry." To be struck again is doubly bitter. Don't let them pull you under, though. Be proud of what you did accomplish and the skills you possess. You have no control of the market except deciding what conditions you yourself are willing to work for and under. Maintain your personal integrity. Continue to nourish those contacts you made, and attempt to follow the editors who so trusted you. See if you can use them for references. Forge new alliances. In publishing, as in life, take nothing for granted. And always, be proud of yourself. And tonight at 2 a.m., stick your head out the window and shout: "I'm sick and tired and I'm not going to take it anymore!" Dorothy DiRienzi, Associate Editor Academic and Administrative Documents e-mail: dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu Rainy days-- silkworms droop on mulberries. [Basho] ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1057.9D5F35C8 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: Venting

There was a great = discussion on CSPAN Book TV this past weekend by the woman who is the = director of Beacon Press.  Her lecture was titled Publishing 101, = and listening to her flashed me right back to my personal experiences = in medical publishing merger mania (which could be any publishing = merger mania).  The keywords to her talk were "synergy" = and "bottom line."  The end result is that, as with = every other aspect of our economy and culture, money talks and talk = walks.

Being set aside abruptly = after investing years of work in putting out quality products that one = literally wrenches into existence through determination, sweat, = neuronal wear-and-tear, and the endless learning of how to use computer = hardware and software is a bitter hurt.  The feeling of betrayal = and outrage can be overwhelming.  No doubt many of us have clung = to editorial and indexing skills after we were flung into the freelance = sea by idiot corporate "captains of industry."  To be = struck again is doubly bitter.  Don't let them pull you under, = though.

Be proud of what you did = accomplish and the skills you possess.  You have no control of the = market except deciding what conditions you yourself are willing to work = for and under.  Maintain your personal integrity.  Continue = to nourish those contacts you made, and attempt to follow the editors = who so trusted you.  See if you can use them for references.  = Forge new alliances. 

In publishing, as in life, = take nothing for granted.  And always, be proud of yourself.  =

And tonight at 2 a.m., = stick your head out the window and shout:  "I'm sick and = tired and I'm not going to take it anymore!"




Dorothy = DiRienzi, Associate Editor

Academic = and Administrative Documents

e-mail:  dorothy.dirienzi@asu.edu

Rainy = days--
silkworms droop
on = mulberries.   [Basho]

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1057.9D5F35C8-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 20:57:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Full-time work, part-time indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A potential student for the Introduction to Indexing course that I teach is considering adding indexing as a part-time income enhancer (her background is finance/business). If any of you in a similar situation, i.e., working (non-indexing) full time plus indexing part time, would be willing to share some of your experiences doing that, I know she would be grateful. In addition, if anyone feels extra-kind and wouldn't mind chatting briefly with this individual, please e-mail me directly as to how she might contact you. Thanks. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:00:20 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: New Website for Australian Society of Indexers Comments: cc: "aliaINDEXERS@alianet. alia. org. au" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Australian Society of Indexers has a new Website at http://www.aussi.org. The structure of the site is the same as the old one, so specific pages can still be found in the same directories: ie. http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi/anl/9908sep has become http://www.aussi.org/anl/9908sep and so on. Visitors to the old site will be redirected to the new home page until about the end of the year, when the old account will be closed. There are also new email addresses for AusSI-related mail to national committee members: president@aussi.org memsec@aussi.org secretary@aussi.org treasurer@aussi.org newsletter@aussi.org webmaster@aussi.org Please adjust your links and addresses accordingly. Let me know if you have any problems or enquiries. Jon. Jon Jermey Webmaster, Australian Society of Indexers http://www.aussi.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:53:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Kawabata Subject: Re: Venting In-Reply-To: <704261d3.252d3b30@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:54 PM 10/6/1999 -0400, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >As hard a pill as it is to swallow, this is a "character-strengthening >experience". One of life's little favors to us that in the long run cause us >to seek out greener pastures and move ahead. > >I know that sounds corny, but things have often happened to me that way. >When a door slams, there are often new challenges right behind it. This reminds me of one of my favorite quotations: "Every exit is an entrance somewhere else...but the hallways are a bitch." Julie Kawabata Portland, Oregon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:18:55 -0000 Reply-To: Christine Shuttleworth Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 5 Oct 1999 to 6 Oct 1999 (#1999-68) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IndexJim has meanwhile supplied very full information on Colin Kelly, but a friend of mine to whom I passed the recent exchange responded thus: From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I haven't come across any info as to which publishers are paying how much. It might help in negotiating if one knew one's client's real going rate. I think there have been surveys of rates, but not broken down by publisher. Has this been done? Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:06:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Publishers' rates Comments: To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com John Sampson wrote: > I haven't come across any info as to which publishers are paying > how much. It might help in negotiating if one knew one's client's real > going rate. I think there have been surveys of rates, but not broken > down by publisher. Has this been done? It would be wonderful if indexers knew publishers' rates; then we could vie for the ones with the higher rates of pay. :) All the cut-rate publishers would soon discover that no indexer was interested in them (and that computers don't index concepts) and raise their rates accordingly. If all the publishers got hold of the list though, they might decide as a group to LOWER rates. Then we'd all have to quit for awhile and go sling burgers somewhere until they begged for us to come back. In all seriousness, I only know what I charge a publisher/ what they pay me, but not what they are paying anyone else, and not what their idea of "going rate" really is. Only rarely has an indexer told me what a particular publisher pays them. I know I rarely do so myself. I suppose part of that is that I think other indexers might "underbid" me, and part of it is that I have this idea that I'm not supposed to tell. Maybe they are paying me $3.00 per page and paying everyone else 1.50 (or vice versa) and we'd all get mad if we found out what the other was earning; there'd be demands on all sides. I'm a bit afraid to ask a publisher straight out, "What's your going rate?" figuring they'll say "A buck-fifty." I prefer to tell a new publisher my highest per-page rate. Sometimes, based on my impressions of the conversation (stunned silence? a change of topic?) I'll tell them it's negotiable, depending on certain factors. If it gets that far, I'll tell them what the factors are. Paula Durbin-Westby > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:56:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Paula C. Durbin-Westby To: Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Publishers' rates > John Sampson wrote: > > > I haven't come across any info as to which publishers are paying > > how much. It might help in negotiating if one knew one's client's real > > going rate. I think there have been surveys of rates, but not broken > > down by publisher. Has this been done? > > > It would be wonderful if indexers knew publishers' rates; then we could vie > for the ones with the higher rates of pay. :) All the cut-rate publishers > would soon discover that no indexer was interested in them (and that > computers don't index concepts) and raise their rates accordingly. If all > the publishers got hold of the list though, they might decide as a group to > LOWER rates. Then we'd all have to quit for awhile and go sling burgers > somewhere until they begged for us to come back. A good analysis. > > In all seriousness, I only know what I charge a publisher/ what they pay > me, but not what they are paying anyone else, and not what their idea of > "going rate" really is. Only rarely has an indexer told me what a > particular publisher pays them. I know I rarely do so myself. I suppose > part of that is that I think other indexers might "underbid" me, and part > of it is that I have this idea that I'm not supposed to tell. Maybe they > are paying me $3.00 per page and paying everyone else 1.50 (or vice versa) > and we'd all get mad if we found out what the other was earning; there'd be > demands on all sides. When I make a referral to another indexer, I make sure that the indexer to whom I've referred a job knows about what I get from that publisher. Otherwise, I don't discuss rates too much. My reasoning is that I don't want them to undercut me, and that I want them to get a fair price (if it's fair). I think this can backfire for the person receiving the information. They may think that's the ceiling and not try for more, which they might have done without the information. > > I'm a bit afraid to ask a publisher straight out, "What's your going rate?" > figuring they'll say "A buck-fifty." I prefer to tell a new publisher my > highest per-page rate. Sometimes, based on my impressions of the > conversation (stunned silence? a change of topic?) I'll tell them it's > negotiable, depending on certain factors. If it gets that far, I'll tell > them what the factors are. > Here's a tip for that situation: When you start talking price has much to do with how much you can get. If you've spent a good bit of time contacting this publisher/editor, if you have a rapport going, if they have expressed that they want to work with you, then you are bound to get more than if you have not made a "connection" with that person. You can then safely go for the "high end" of your range. Otherwise, you might shoot for the low to middle end (where is the middle end?). In that editor's mind, she's already contracted with you and the price, while not necessarily a formality, is bumped up a bit. Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:18:56 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Krys Bottrill Subject: Re: Full-time work, part-time indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would also be interested in hearing about this. My own background is biomedical sciences (BSc Cellular Pathology, PhD Immunology). I currently work for a charity (hence the need to supplement income) looking into alternatives to the use of animals in science. In the course of my work I have picked up a lot of toxicology, vaccine development and numerous other things. krys > A potential student for the Introduction to Indexing course that I > teach is > considering adding indexing as a part-time income enhancer (her > background is > finance/business). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:04:58 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Job for Contract Indexer, offsite, FrameMaker files, $50/hr | bid Comments: To: stcisig-l@lists.stc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're interested/available/qualified, please contact pubpros@synergistech.com. Refer to "CIX013, Contract Indexer, offsite, FrameMaker files, $50/hr | bid" If you're interested in the following offsite FrameMaker indexing project, please respond ASAP -- this client's in a real hurry. Company: Synergistech Communications, Inc. Position: CIX013, Contract Indexer Deliverable: Softcopy index for ~225pp of FrameMaker files -- 1 sw manual, 1 technical reference manual Audience: End-users and installers of complex telecom equipment Location: Offsite, altho it would be ideal if you could meet the client at least once at their office in Los Gatos Duration: 1-2 weeks' full-time work Required: Experience indexing tech manuals. FrameMaker expertise. Desired: Understanding of telecom concepts, DSL equipment, hw/sw Pay rate: Up to $50/hr on a 1099 basis, pref as a not-to-exceed bid Starts: Immediately Summary: Focused, top-notch Technical Indexer required to create comprehensive index (by editing entries directly into FrameMaker 5 files) for two books (~225 pages). Work offsite on own equipment, but project must be complete within ~10 days of handoff. Prefer not-to-exceed project bid to per-hour billing. 1099 only. - Andrew Davis Synergistech Communications, Inc. Recruiting and Career Coaching Services for Technical Communicators tel: (650) 344-2141 ext. 12 fax: (650) 344-5664 email: pubpros@synergistech.com web: http://www.synergistech.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:04:49 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Venting Comments: To: dlwitt@concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank goodness I've long since passed the point of being so desperate for work that I would do anything for any rate! It's galling, but I will survive. Thanks so much for your note...it's great to be able to get such support from my colleagues. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:11:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Venting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you all for your words of wisdom, wonderful support, and the opportunity to "let it all hang out" here among colleagues. There's no way I can "negotiate" this price into something acceptable, and so I will write to my contact this morning and explain why I can't...and bid her a warm adieu. She herself is a freelancer, working for this company as a supervisor on the overall publication, and I have a sneaking suspicion that HER pay was cut, as well. I have no way of knowing this, of course, but with that sort of mind-set, I'm sure the company decided it could cut everybody because we were all overpaid. :-( I think I will take the rest of the day off... Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:35:17 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: Re: Job for Contract Indexer, offsite, FrameMaker files, $50/hr | bid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Mr. Davis, This is in reference to "CIX013, Contract Indexer, offsite, FrameMaker files, $50/hr | bid" I index in FrameMaker and have indexed two user manuals--one for a museum collections program and one for an accounting program for Schwab. Presently I am copyediting and indexing a book about UNIX. I have been indexing for about two years--mostly scholarly books, but now I am branching out into the technical field. I live in Sacramento and a visit to Los Gatos would be no problem-- in fact, it would be nice to get out of my office. $50 an hour is acceptable--though I would need to see a sample page or two to determine a page per hour rate. These could be sent via fax or as an attachment. I must admit though, that I am familiar with DSL, but only as a service that I am going to subscribe to. It would be nice to know how it really works. If you are interested in using my services, please contact me. I can fax/email you my resume. Thank you for your time. Kathy Paparchontis Kathleen Paparchontis K & D, Associates 916-344-3846 916-344-9564 (fax) kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:23:03 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <002501bf10c3$771fc0a0$1142b6d1@iwillp3450> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ates > > accordingly. If all the publishers got hold of the list though, they > > might decide as a group Yes, I can see perhaps one would have to be a bit cannier than to have a list people could get hold of. There might be a facility where indexers could call for some confidential low-down on the publisher they are negotiating with, including the rates they are paying. It might need some non-judgmental person to receive confidential info from indexers as well as supply it. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:17:36 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KimIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). Many thanks and best wishes Kim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:44:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary S Stephenson Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! Comments: To: KimIndex@AOL.COM In-Reply-To: <0.79f3174c.252e8410@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kim, You shouldn't have to re-load any application software. I don't use Lotus, but so far I haven't had any software that worked with Windows 95 not work with Windows 98 [including a really old version of MS Word I keep on my office computer for use by a retired faculty member]. Best advice I can give is make sure you have a minimum of 32K RAM [with 64 or 128 even better] unless you want to experience REALLY slow response. Cheers, Susie Stephenson SLAIS/UBC Vancouver mss@interchange.ubc.ca On Thu, 7 Oct 1999 KimIndex@AOL.COM wrote: > Hi! > > I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can > anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in > case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). > > Many thanks and best wishes > > Kim > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:48:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Mea (more or less) Culpa MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - I want to thank all of those who have flown (how subtle!!) to the defense of Colin Kelly. I really did believe that he was fictitious. Like many (most?) people who have had a cherished and long-standing belief challenged and shown to be in error, some small kernel of stubborn denial still smoulders in the unrepentant part of my spirit. Perhaps the original disclaimer that I read so long ago simply was that he had not crashed his B-17 into a Japanese battleship (he didn't) and, over the years, my recollection morphed (Eengleesh, she is going to hell, eh?) into the impression that the man as well as the deed was fictitious. Perhaps the bit of 1994 purple prose that IndexJim so thoughtfully posted (I could hear the massed choir in the background) really was a simple (albeit breathlessly heroic) statement of fact. All that happened over fifty years ago, in the heat of a most frighteningly dangerous time for the United States. Our ultimate success in that war was, then, by no means assured. We faced a long, costly and difficult struggle, and the outcome was very much in doubt. Pearl Harbor just had been devastated. The Japanese were sweeping virtually unopposed across the Pacific. The long defense, and ultimate surrender, of Corregidor and the Philippines was a saga of heroic defeat. The Bataan death march was about to take place. At the time, the Colin Kelly attack on a Japanese warship was a desperately-needed bit of positive encouragement in an otherwise unrelievedly bleak and discouraging situation. Perhaps the Kelly story is exactly true, perhaps not. It really doesn't matter now. It was terribly important then. And if he existed I really don't want to play false to the memory of a heroic flyer. As a loyal Orwell reader I also note that in "1984" the star-crossed hero, Winston Smith, worked in the Ministry of Truth, and his job was to make Big Brother's predictions match perfectly what actually happened. He did this by removing from the archive the issue of the newspaper in which Big Brother made his prediction, changing the prediction to match the facts, reprinting the entire paper, and then replacing it into the file. Having watched my (and all other) governments in action for all these years, I have learned to sprinkle a lot of salt on my daily helping of official pronouncements. When told that it is daytime, for example, I first look out the window, and then check my wallet. That is a nondiscriminatory statement, applying equally to Republicans, Democrats, and the ever-present lunatic fringe. So to all of you, and to the children in that Oregon Colin Kelly school, I offer my apologies for my apparently unjustified disbelief. Bob PS. The point of my original posting had to do with indexing pseudohistory. For some reason, that agenda has been overlooked in the C-K brouhaha. We have heard of the K-T boundary, which marked the end of the Cretaceous and the extinction of the dinosaurs. We now have the C-K boundary, which evidently marks the extinction of the discussion regarding indexing fiction masking as fact. RR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:47:16 -0400 Reply-To: ibap@crystalsys.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! Comments: To: KimIndex@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been lots of stories of problems with installing 98 over 95. Most often, the rememdy is to back up, reformat the hard drive, install 98, then re-install software. You might get away with the easy route, and you might not. Just a warning! Iris KimIndex@aol.com wrote: > > Hi! > > I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can > anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in > case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). > > Many thanks and best wishes > > Kim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: Nevermind@nospam.me Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: Never. It spoils my system. Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! Comments: To: ibap@crystalsys.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > Hi! > > > > I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can > > anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in > > case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). > > > > Many thanks and best wishes > > > > Kim I upgraded over a year ago to 98. I've had absolutely no problems at all. All my software worked just fine, inlcluding all my 1996 stuff. But think about this: do you really NEED 98? I mean, what about it do you think you will like better? It's not faster, or more efficient, except in the disk utilities. If your hard drive isn't compressed or you don't plan to compress it, you probably don't need the upgrade at all. You can ask me pretty much anything about the process, if you like--just mail me off-list -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:16:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EF Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! Comments: To: ibap@crystalsys.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with the warning. My computer guru son had problems installing 98 over 95 and I was without use of a computer for over a week before the problems were resolved. Clicker -----Original Message----- From: Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, October 07, 1999 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! >There have been lots of stories of problems with installing 98 over 95. >Most often, the rememdy is to back up, reformat the hard drive, install >98, then re-install software. You might get away with the easy route, >and you might not. Just a warning! > >Iris > >KimIndex@aol.com wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can >> anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in >> case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). >> >> Many thanks and best wishes >> >> Kim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:38:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wanda Harding Subject: Re: Windows 98 - not indexing, just advice! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I upgraded to Win 98 and found that it ran a TON better by removing Internet Explorer. There is a web site: www.98lite that has the details. Good luck! Wanda "Iris B. Ailin-Pyzik" wrote: > There have been lots of stories of problems with installing 98 over 95. > Most often, the rememdy is to back up, reformat the hard drive, install > 98, then re-install software. You might get away with the easy route, > and you might not. Just a warning! > > Iris > > KimIndex@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hi! > > > > I'm considering (at last) upgrading to Windows 98 from Windows 95. But can > > anyone tell me whether I will have to reload all my software (and, just in > > case anyone has tried this, does Lotus 96 work with Windows 98). > > > > Many thanks and best wishes > > > > Kim ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:09:40 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: AusSI Newsletter for October available on Web Comments: To: "aliaINDEXERS@alianet. alia. org. au" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit By the time you read this the AusSI newsletter for October should be on the Web at our new site: http://www.aussi.org/anl/9909oct Articles this month include: Hobart Conference Reports International Agreement Indexers Medal 1999 President's Letter Sky Index Users Mailing List New AusSI Website and email addresses Regards Jon