Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9910C" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:51:07 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a user I prefer B. But as an indexer I would probably follow A, because it requires less thought and therefore time, and the index is invariably needed the day before yesterday. If I agonised over the position of every subheading I'd never meet a deadline. I do not believe that a typical user encountering a list of subheadings is going to home in on where they expect to find what they're looking for, and give up if it's not there, but rather scan down all of them. For that reason it is certainly in principle more helpful to ensure that a meaningful word is the first word of the subheading. So I would take a lot of care if there were 24 or 36 subheads as you say there are in this case, but with the more usual eight or fewer I wouldn't use precious time worrying about it. The indiscriminate use of "and" is a definite no-no. Its use is quite precise -- when the indexer wishes to avoid implying any relationship between the heading and the subheading, either because the discussion in the text covers many types of relationship or because the type of relationship is not clear in the text. You can usually indicate the relationship much more specifically, e.g. "Vertigo banned by". As far as prepositions are concerned, AS/NZS 999 (a rebadged ISO 999) says in clause 7.2.2.5 "Prepositions should as far as possible be used only if their absence might cause ambiguity. Examples -- countryside: public access ("to" unnecessary); food: rationing ("of" unnecessary); land: use ("of" unnecessary); but computers: for management; computers: management of." A survey of winners of the Wheatley Medal reported in The Indexer a few years back discovered that what the winners had in common was an avoidance of prepositions. (Of course, as was pointed out to me this morning, this may indicate nothing more than that medal judges dislike prepositions!) Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 KEYWRD (0500 539 973) Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Cauchi To: Sent: Thursday, 14 October, 1999 1:38 Subject: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings > If subheadings are to be arranged alphabetically, what is the best way of > wording them? Should the key word comes first, or can the word used for > alphabetical sorting be an arbitrarily chosen word? Let me explain what I > mean by way of an example. > >... > Which formulation and which arrangement of subheadings do you prefer among > the following, and why? > > A: Bloggs, Joseph > appointed vice-chancellor > bans _Vertigo_ > takes role in _Hamlet_ > veteran athlete > visits Cambridge > > B: Bloggs, Joseph > athletic prowess > Cambridge visit > as Ghost in _Hamlet_ > and _Vertigo_ > vice-chancellor > ... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:56:40 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Jr.'s vs Sr.'s -- alphabetizing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Brackney posted: "Also, Pilar, there's another case to take into account: a "Jr." instead of a "II" who's followed by a "III", as in, say Stephens, Olin J. (Sr.) Stephens, Olin J., Jr. Stephens, Olin J. III (Olie) Stephens, Rod (Sr.) Stephens, Rod, Jr. and what interests me in this case is the sorting issue." Yes, good point. I must admit, I was a bit relieved that Olin's case was consistent within his own nuclear family, and that Rod didn't have a son, too (though one of his daughters may, but at least he wasn't mentioned in this book)! I think I would have sorted the names as you have above. That is, I make sure to sort "III" and any other roman numerals as numerals, not letters, and to respect the chronological aspect of these names. I think I also very much like your suggestion of including "Sr." in parentheses. At first, I was taken aback, but it's actually quite consistent, I think, with the nicknames that are used in the book, which, as you can see, I have also included in parentheses. Putting "Sr." in parentheses indicates to the reader that that's another way the name will be mentioned in the text, and reflects more directly how the author has treated the name (as Barbara asked about). Too bad I already submitted that index! Thanks for the suggestion. happy indexing, Pilar L. Pilar Wyman WYMAN INDEXING Annapolis, MD 410-757-7119 PilarW@aol.com Great Indexes for Great Books ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:51:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings I agree that putting the "and" at the end makes the index more scannable. (Is that a word? Easier to scan, how's that?) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paula C. Durbin-Westby [SMTP:dwindex@LOUISA.NET] > Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 11:17 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings > > I am embarking upon the indexing of a multi-volume work , part of which > was > indexed by the author. He invariably put his "ands" at the beginning. I > indexed one volume a year ago and tried to follow his usage so that the > indexes would all have the same style. But I find myself balking at doing > it in this year's volume. After consulting the editor, I may move all the > "ands" to what I think of as their proper location: behind the important > words, not in front of them. > > Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:02:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Christy Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan You may be able to access a copy of the Tampa Tribune article from its website at Tampatrib.com. The article was in the Sunday, October 10, 1999 issue in the Employment Plus section. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Sunderman Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dan - I think you may have the wrong Susan?? - Susan Sunderman -----Original Message----- From: Dan Christy [mailto:Dmdc9570@AOL.COM] Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 9:02 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune Susan You may be able to access a copy of the Tampa Tribune article from its website at Tampatrib.com. The article was in the Sunday, October 10, 1999 issue in the Employment Plus section. Dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:21:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune In-Reply-To: <199910151438.KAA12036@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > You may be able to access a copy of the Tampa Tribune article from its > website at Tampatrib.com. The article was in the Sunday, October 10, 1999 > issue in the Employment Plus section. I went there and found no search engine or index. They did have a link to the last three days of news, but that didn't get back to the date of the indexing article. Is there a search feature I'm missing? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:25:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune In the archives there is a search feature, but I didn't find it there, either. > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Evans [SMTP:infodex@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 11:21 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune > > > You may be able to access a copy of the Tampa Tribune article from its > > website at Tampatrib.com. The article was in the Sunday, October 10, > 1999 > > issue in the Employment Plus section. > > I went there and found no search engine or index. They did have a link to > the last three days of news, but that didn't get back to the date of the > indexing article. > > Is there a search feature I'm missing? > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:59:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Recent article on indexing in Tampa Tribune Someone who can create a search engine or some sort of index for them might start thinking about the best way to aprroach these folks and get the job! (Not me; I don't have those skills.) You can tell 'em dozens (so I exaggerate) of indexers searched for that article in vain and complained mightily. Paula ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:27:56 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Small Claims Court MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, this has been an interesting thread for me. Not because I've been stiffed by a client (knock on wood here) but because I always like to know what my options are just in case :-). After reading Elliot's message I did some research of my own. I'm in California so what I found may only apply to my state. I called the small claim's court and was told that you can serve an out-of-state corporate party if, and only if, you can serve their "agent for service" here in California. When a corporation does business in California (like selling it's books to distributors, storing books etc.) they have to register their agent for service with the California secretary of state. It is the agent for service (an individual who physically does business in California) who can be served by the small claims court. The summons is addressed to the corporation in care of the agent for service. In other words, you can sue an out-of-state company in small claims court as long as you can serve a company entity doing business in your home state. So, how do you find out who the agent for service is and where they can be served? Right now you have to write to the California secretary of state and pay $4.00 per name for each inquiry. However, their office told me that the list is due to be online by mid November of this year and that then the information will be both more accessible and free! Now, it is possible that not all out-of-state publishing companies do business in California, but I would imagine that many of them do. Any state which has the large book distribution companies will be doing business with publishers. Of course, this might not be applicable to all out-of-state publishers, but better some than none. Again, this information is valid for the California small claims court. I don't know about any other state. However, it shouldn't be too hard to find out what the procedure is in a specific state. I would find it hard to believe that what is possible in California isn't possible in other states. And once you went to small claims court and received a judgment you could then go ahead and get the sister-state judgment which would allow you to try to collect from the publisher (which is another difficult issue). I want to thank Elliot for being so persistent in his investigation into this matter. I think that it is very important for all of us to know and understand our options for collecting unpaid bills. I certainly now know more about this procedure than I did before. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: Elliot Linzer To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 4:35 AM Subject: Small Claims Court > I was prepared to eat my words regarding using Small Claims Courts >to sue an out-of-state client. Sylvia Coates and I have had an exchange >of >letters off-list over this issue and I called the Small Claims Court for >Queens County, New York. > It looks like I won't have to eat my words. In New York State, and >probably in other states, you can not use Small Claims Courts against >out-of-state defendants. That's what I was told by one of the clerks I >spoke with earlier today. > Sylvia's case (1) did not really involve an out-of-state party and >(2) >was not generalizable to the sort of freelancer-client case in issue >here. >Sylvia's case was a standard landlord-tenant dispute. Both parties >started >off as residents of the same state, California. Her "deadbeat renter" >owned >property in Nevada, so she wanted her California judgment enforced in >Nevada. > Sylvia suggestion of getting a "sister-state judgment" from the >civil >court where the defendant is located is valid. The problem is that when >you are trying to take an action against an out-of-state defendant, the >Small Claims Court is likely to send you to the Civil Court for your >county. > Often it is easy to win your case in Small Claims Court and >difficult to >collect after your victory. Usually, the clerks for the Small Claims >Court >or for the country Sheriff's Office or Marshall can help you with >collections (Believe it or not, each Borough [county] in the City of New >York has a Sheriff. There is also a City Marshall. I can never remember >the jurisdiction of each, but both exist to collect debts.). > If the client you are suing is one of the giant publishers, the case >is >likely to be settled before the court appearance. On the other hand, if >you are suing a tiny publisher or book packager, they may have little or >no assets, so they may feel that it is in their advantage to lose by >default >and force you to collect. By that time they may be bankrupt or have >vanished without going through any formal legal procedures. > In my 28 years of freelancing, I have resorted to the Small Claims >Court only five times. Only once was a case contested and I had to >actually show up in court to defend my position. The other four were >settled, in one case only hours before the scheduled court appearance. >Most of the cases involved the client holding back on paying me. > > >| Elliot Linzer >| 43-05 Crommelin Street >| Flushing, New York 11355 >| (718) 353-1261 >| elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:25:53 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <199910150401.AAA12655@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Subject: Publishers' rates >Tree wrote: For me the concept of not disclosing pay is >associated with management strategies aimed at keeping workers down, which >is definitely not something i want to support. I certainly agree. If I can't do a project and pass it on to another indexer, I always say what I would have bid, so that I will not be UNDERBID. I think if we communicated more about what we charged, we would not have to bid lower than we are worth in order to underbid other potential indexers. I also feel it's good to publicize high rates in order to encourage others to ask the same. In order to do that, I'm happy to tell the list what I charge: I think no indexer, however, inexperienced, should charge less than $3/page, unless the book has only one line of text per page. Pierce (my husband, who works with me) and I have a guideline of $4/page minimum. We often charge $4.50-$5 for our textbook clients and $5 and up for our software clients. My hourly rate is $55, which my last client (a financial company operating in the Boston area) accepted without a blink of an eye. Clients who want top-quality work know they can get that from us and are willihg to pay. Clients who want a bargain don't hire us, which I think is a good way of regulating work flow. At the moment we have many more projects than we can handle. Remember that it IS possible to negotiate. If a client offers $3, ask for $3.50 or $4. See what happens. If they say no, you can still take the job at $3, if you want to. We recently turned down a freelance book packager who was offering $3/page for indexing, when we have been getting $4.75 from the same textbook client! She obviously didn't know how to negotiate. Raising your rates is good for all of us. Susan Susan Holbert --- 781-893-0514 "Basic Indexing Skills" training video Boston-area workshop October 30 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:38:56 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: The Reagan Bio "Dutch" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was recently some discussion here of the index in "Dutch," the recent Reagan biography. I am reading the book now and just came upon something interesting, the mention of the index in he text! Here is the excerpt on page 170: "At least one boy, ten-year-old Jerry Parr of Miami, Florida, vowed that he, too, would become a Secret Service agent like Brass Bancroft [character played by Reagan in a movie], 'dauntless in the face of danger. . .fearless in the face of death!' Readers interested in young Parr's subsequent career should check his name in the index." Of course I checked the index (p. 857) and found the following: Parr, Jerry, 170, 428-29, 430, 432 Of course Jerry Parr went on to be the Secret Service agent who may have saved Reagan's life during the assassination attempt. I just thought some of you might be interested that the index was actually noted in the text of the book, something I find quite unusual. Am I wrong? Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:11:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: FYI, ASI mail server In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19991015142553.0080b740@world.std.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It appears that the ASI mail server is back up. If you try to send a message, and it bounces, please contact me, Ilana Kingsley, at inewby@beryl.ils.unc.edu or indexpup@indexpup.com. --Ilana Kingsley ASI Co-Webmaster ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:42:26 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: fyi: the recent decision re freelance copyright & web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/issue310/item6810.asp The Freelance Writer's Web by Wendy M. Grossman Thursday, October 14, 1999 Recently, the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York reversed a 1997 federal court decision in Tasini v. The New York Times. That decision had threatened to upend many years of established copyright law by allowing publishers to reuse freelance-written material in electronic databases and on the Web without further payment. The result is good news for freelance writers, most of whom spend their careers struggling to make ends meet. . . . Unfortunately, the most likely next step will be for publishers to demand all rights even more vigilantly -- and the average freelancer is not in a position to refuse because he or she needs the work. The recent reversal of the Tasini decision will, I hope, give more of us the courage to insist on fairer terms. Otherwise, the future for freelance writers will be as piece-workers in tiny huts in obscure locations, churning the stuff out with no time for thought or research. That is a bad idea by any standards. Wendy M. Grossman is co-editor of Skeptic magazine and was a judge for the Online Journalism Awards. The full text of her last book, net.wars, is online for free. She is a regular commentator for IntellectualCapital.com. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:47:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Organization: the-indexer.com Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Susan wrote: I think no indexer, however, inexperienced, should charge > less than > > $3/page, unless the book has only one line of text per page. > > Maybe I'm missing something here. If I understand you correctly, you are > saying that even given a extremely simple book to index, perhaps a > children's book with at most two to three very easy-to-decide-upon entries > per page, so that one can, even with the most painstaking line edit, finish > 30 or more pages per hour, still no one should charge less than $3/page even > for this simple book. Leaving aside that extremely convoluted sentence, if > one of my editors realized I wanted to charge $80-$90 an hour to do a simple > book, I'm sure they would quite rightly conclude I was out of any reasonable > fair bounds. > > I certainly support reasonable return for professional work and not constant > low bids keeping the market down, but I also feel that there has to be some > match to the quantity, sophistication, and time required for a particular > job in figuring a bill. This is a mark of professionalism I believe > (leaving aside such things as the way doctors bill). When I calculate what > it costs me to operate a vehicle, I don't base my calculations solely on the > price of gasoline per dollar. I include things like what gas mileage I get. > (Maybe there's a better simile than the gas comparison, but I hope you get > what I mean.) > > I will continue to charge what I have set as a fair hourly return for my > time and that may translate to $4.50 a page or it may translate to $1.75 a > page. An artificial fixed per page rate which everyone is supposed to use > as a minimum just doesn't meet my definition of ethical pricing. I am > bothered by a plumber who says I will charge you $40 just to walk in your > door no matter whether I spend five minutes on your problem or thirty > minutes. I'm bothered by the current trend in telephone software support > where one may be charged $25 to talk to a software engineer and spend ten > minutes or thirty minutes solving a problem. While this does seem to be the > way of the world, I don't have to follow it, or feel guilty that I am > undercutting other indexers. And, as a final comment, I just recently > raised my hourly rate from $35/hour to $40/hour. That is certainly low by > Susan's standards, but I feel good about it, and my editors seem > comfortable. > > Charles R. Anderson > the-indexer.com > P.O. Box 15642 > Seattle, WA 98115-0642 > phone: 206-985-8799 > fax: 206-985-8796 > anderson@the-indexer.com > http://www.the-indexer.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:46:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan McQuarrie Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Susan wrote: I think no indexer, however, inexperienced, should charge less than > $3/page, unless the book has only one line of text per page. Maybe I'm missing something here. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that even given a extremely simple book to index, perhaps a children's book with at most two to three very easy-to-decide-upon entries per page, so that one can, even with the most painstaking line edit, finish 30 or more pages per hour, still no one should charge less than $3/page even for this simple book. Leaving aside that extremely convoluted sentence, if one of my editors realized I wanted to charge $80-$90 an hour to do a simple book, I'm sure they would quite rightly conclude I was out of any reasonable fair bounds. I certainly support reasonable return for professional work and not constant low bids keeping the market down, but I also feel that there has to be some match to the quantity, sophistication, and time required for a particular job in figuring a bill. This is a mark of professionalism I believe (leaving aside such things as the way doctors bill). When I calculate what it costs me to operate a vehicle, I don't base my calculations solely on the price of gasoline per dollar. I include things like what gas mileage I get. (Maybe there's a better simile than the gas comparison, but I hope you get what I mean.) I will continue to charge what I have set as a fair hourly return for my time and that may translate to $4.50 a page or it may translate to $1.75 a page. An artificial fixed per page rate which everyone is supposed to use as a minimum just doesn't meet my definition of ethical pricing. I am bothered by a plumber who says I will charge you $40 just to walk in your door no matter whether I spend five minutes on your problem or thirty minutes. I'm bothered by the current trend in telephone software support where one may be charged $25 to talk to a software engineer and spend ten minutes or thirty minutes solving a problem. While this does seem to be the way of the world, I don't have to follow it, or feel guilty that I am undercutting other indexers. And, as a final comment, I just recently raised my hourly rate from $35/hour to $40/hour. That is certainly low by Susan's standards, but I feel good about it, and my editors seem comfortable. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com P.O. Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 phone: 206-985-8799 fax: 206-985-8796 anderson@the-indexer.com http://www.the-indexer.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 15:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Robert Brod Subject: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FWIW, I had two indexes this year, from two different university presses, that were editied to add prepositions, including "and" frequently, and placed at the beginning of the subentry. One editor emailed me: "...many editors and indexers disagree among themselves about the degree to which using prepositions and conjunctions in helpful/necessary. My preference is to use them fairly frequently and consistently." Both of these indexes were in paragraph format, and the thought occurs to me that the prepositions, especially in this format, serve to help visually separate the subentries (along with the punctuation). Mary Brod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:40:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I determine my Valued Clients by the hourly rate that I average, not the page rate they pay. I feel it is up to us as Professional Indexers to raise our hourly income by working more efficiently. That is something we can control and improve upon. I can increase my efficiency by analyzing and improving my indexing workflow, making maximum use of software tools, and by just gaining more indexing experience. I have much less control over what publishers will pay per page. I can slowly inch up my rates, but I will eventually hit a limit. Therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I cannot rely entirely on publishers to support the hourly rate that I want to make or to even keep pace with inflation. So I really think our income depends on both factors, publishers' rates and us. I've realized significant increases in my hourly rate over the past few years by paying attention to what I can control and improve upon, my indexing quality and efficiency. My average hourly income is now in the low $90.00. And if I'm making that kind of hourly income, I really don't care what the page rate is...I'm happy (grin). Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 11728 Elkhead Range Road Littleton, CO 80127-3706 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com > > >Susan wrote: I think no indexer, however, inexperienced, should >charge less than $3/page, unless the book has only one line of text per >page. > > Charles wrote: I will continue to charge what I have set as a fair >hourly return for my time and that may translate to $4.50 a page or it >may translate to $1.75 a page. An artificial fixed per page rate which >everyone is supposed to use as a minimum just doesn't meet my definition >of ethical pricing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:13:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <002f01bf174e$5e8c3c80$0300000a@0rqfz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: >I certainly support reasonable return for professional work and not constant >low bids keeping the market down, but I also feel that there has to be some >match to the quantity, sophistication, and time required for a particular >job in figuring a bill. This is a mark of professionalism I believe >(leaving aside such things as the way doctors bill). Isn't that the reason why we check projects out first before quoting a price...so that we can set a fair price for each job, rather than doing one rate for everything? Willa (who will be upgrading to Eudora 4.2 this weekend and who hopes that I don't loose email connection in the process...keep your fingers crossed...:) ) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 23:42:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just overindexed a book and now have to cut drastically. I'm familiar with Mulvany and CMS. Are there any other tricks to prevent this? Marlene London Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:34:02 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Fw: Small Claims Court MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Pardon me if this message has already appeared on the List. I sent it Friday morning and it never showed up in my inbox so I'm resending it. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: Sylvia Coates To: Indexer's Discussion Group Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Small Claims Court >Well, this has been an interesting thread for me. Not because I've been >stiffed by a client (knock on wood here) but because I always like to know >what my options are just in case :-). > >After reading Elliot's message I did some research of my own. I'm in >California so what I found may only apply to my state. I called the small >claim's court and was told that you can serve an out-of-state corporate >party if, and only if, you can serve their "agent for service" here in >California. > >When a corporation does business in California (like selling it's books to >distributors, storing books etc.) they have to register their agent for >service with the California secretary of state. It is the agent for service >(an individual who physically does business in California) who can be served >by the small claims court. The summons is addressed to the corporation in >care of the agent for service. > >In other words, you can sue an out-of-state company in small claims court as >long as you can serve a company entity doing business in your home state. > >So, how do you find out who the agent for service is and where they can be >served? Right now you have to write to the California secretary of state and >pay $4.00 per name for each inquiry. However, their office told me that the >list is due to be online by mid November of this year and that then the >information will be both more accessible and free! > >Now, it is possible that not all out-of-state publishing companies do >business in California, but I would imagine that many of them do. Any state >which has the large book distribution companies will be doing business with >publishers. Of course, this might not be applicable to all out-of-state >publishers, but better some than none. > >Again, this information is valid for the California small claims court. I >don't know about any other state. However, it shouldn't be too hard to find >out what the procedure is in a specific state. I would find it hard to >believe that what is possible in California isn't possible in other states. > >And once you went to small claims court and received a judgment you could >then go ahead and get the sister-state judgment which would allow you to try >to collect from the publisher (which is another difficult issue). > >I want to thank Elliot for being so persistent in his investigation into >this matter. I think that it is very important for all of us to know and >understand our options for collecting unpaid bills. I certainly now know >more about this procedure than I did before. > >Best, >Sylvia Coates > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Elliot Linzer >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 4:35 AM >Subject: Small Claims Court > > >> I was prepared to eat my words regarding using Small Claims Courts >>to sue an out-of-state client. Sylvia Coates and I have had an exchange >>of >>letters off-list over this issue and I called the Small Claims Court for >>Queens County, New York. >> It looks like I won't have to eat my words. In New York State, and >>probably in other states, you can not use Small Claims Courts against >>out-of-state defendants. That's what I was told by one of the clerks I >>spoke with earlier today. >> Sylvia's case (1) did not really involve an out-of-state party and >>(2) >>was not generalizable to the sort of freelancer-client case in issue >>here. >>Sylvia's case was a standard landlord-tenant dispute. Both parties >>started >>off as residents of the same state, California. Her "deadbeat renter" >>owned >>property in Nevada, so she wanted her California judgment enforced in >>Nevada. >> Sylvia suggestion of getting a "sister-state judgment" from the >>civil >>court where the defendant is located is valid. The problem is that when >>you are trying to take an action against an out-of-state defendant, the >>Small Claims Court is likely to send you to the Civil Court for your >>county. >> Often it is easy to win your case in Small Claims Court and >>difficult to >>collect after your victory. Usually, the clerks for the Small Claims >>Court >>or for the country Sheriff's Office or Marshall can help you with >>collections (Believe it or not, each Borough [county] in the City of New >>York has a Sheriff. There is also a City Marshall. I can never remember >>the jurisdiction of each, but both exist to collect debts.). >> If the client you are suing is one of the giant publishers, the case >>is >>likely to be settled before the court appearance. On the other hand, if >>you are suing a tiny publisher or book packager, they may have little or >>no assets, so they may feel that it is in their advantage to lose by >>default >>and force you to collect. By that time they may be bankrupt or have >>vanished without going through any formal legal procedures. >> In my 28 years of freelancing, I have resorted to the Small Claims >>Court only five times. Only once was a case contested and I had to >>actually show up in court to defend my position. The other four were >>settled, in one case only hours before the scheduled court appearance. >>Most of the cases involved the client holding back on paying me. >> >> >>| Elliot Linzer >>| 43-05 Crommelin Street >>| Flushing, New York 11355 >>| (718) 353-1261 >>| elinzer@juno.com > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 21:40:44 -0700 Reply-To: Charles Anderson Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Organization: the-indexer.com Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly! That's why I was speaking against the idea of a blanket minimum rate. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: Willa MacAllen To: Sent: Friday, October 15, 1999 8:13 PM Subject: Re: Publishers' rates > Hi All: > > >I certainly support reasonable return for professional work and not constant > >low bids keeping the market down, but I also feel that there has to be some > >match to the quantity, sophistication, and time required for a particular > >job in figuring a bill. This is a mark of professionalism I believe > >(leaving aside such things as the way doctors bill). > > Isn't that the reason why we check projects out first before quoting a > price...so that we can set a fair price for each job, rather than doing one > rate for everything? > > Willa (who will be upgrading to Eudora 4.2 this weekend and who hopes that > I don't loose email connection in the process...keep your fingers > crossed...:) ) > Willa MacAllen > Information Organizer > MacAllen's Information Services > Boston > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 03:45:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: fyi: the recent decision re freelance copyright & web Comments: To: varney@mindspring.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To those in the New York area who may be interested, Jonathan Tasini, of the Tasini v. The New York Times ruling, will be speaking at the next general meeting of the Editorial Freelancers Association, on Tuesday, November 9, starting at 5:30 PM, at the EFA office, 71 West 23rd Street, Suite 1910. There is no charge for EFA members, but the fee for nonmembers is $ 10.00. If you are planning to attend, please RSVP at info@the-efa.org or call the office at (212) 020-5400/\. Here is the official announcement of the meeting: General Membership Meeting November 9/Tuesday/5:30 to 6:15 networking/program begins promptly at 6:15 Topic:Tasini v The New York Times Ruling Guest Speaker: Jonathan Tasini On September 24 a federal appeals court ruled in favor of freelance writers in a landmark lawsuit that protects their intellectual property and extends standard principles of copyright law to electronic publishing. The ruling in Tasini v The New York Times is expected to send shock waves throughout the media industry. The impact will have major repercussions for all freelancers hoping to negotiate a fair method of compensation for their work. We are very pleased that Jonathan Tasini, lead plaintiff in the case and also president of the National Writers Union, has agreed to discuss the case and its implications for freelancers with us. Important note: Because we expect a large crowd for this important meeting, we must ask that you reserve your place by e-mailing, faxing, or calling the office. As usual, there is no charge for EFA members; the fee for guests is $10. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:58:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Olason wrote: > I determine my Valued Clients by the hourly rate that I average, not the > page rate they pay. I feel it is up to us as Professional Indexers to > raise our hourly income by working more efficiently. That is something > we can control and improve upon. I can increase my efficiency by > analyzing and improving my indexing workflow, making maximum use of > software tools, and by just gaining more indexing experience. > > I have much less control over what publishers will pay per page. I can > slowly inch up my rates, but I will eventually hit a limit. Therefore, I > have come to the conclusion that I cannot rely entirely on publishers to > support the hourly rate that I want to make or to even keep pace with > inflation. Susan, what have you done to increase your efficiency and workflow? As a result of a discussion on Index-L some time ago, I have stopped marking text for all but the most complex books, and that has certainly increased my speed somewhat. However, I would like to increase my speed and efficiency still further. Can you share some things which have been helpful for you? Thank you, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:35:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SFrankmail@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am very curious about the string about the $90+ per hour rate. This is the highest rate per hour that I have ever heard of. How is this actually billed to the publisher? By the hour, entry, per page, per project? I usually average between $35 and $50 per hour, but this is figured out after the project has been completed and has been billed at a per-page rate (which was determined at the beginning of the project). There are times when I hire a typist to help me out, which actually increases the workload possibilities. She charges $25 per hour--she is an excellent typist and is well worth the money, especially when I am in a crunch of some sort. Sandi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:47:57 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KArrigoni2@AOL.COM Subject: Charging for add-on embedded indexing projects? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have a new client that I just finished creating a FrameMaker embedded index for. The client liked my work and also wants me to update the index when the manual is updated (changed and new information in the manual, added chapters, and so forth). The only other client that I do this type of updating work for trusts me enough to let me charge an hourly fee for this sort of work. A per-page rate doesn't seem quite fair if I've already indexed most of the manual already. Yet, on the other hand, I have a feeling that this could run into a bit of work, depending on the extent of the changes. I was wondering how other people charge for this type of work (other than an hourly rate), or is an hourly rate the only way to go? Thanks for any advice. Karin Arrigoni Write Away Editorial Services San Jose, California URL: http://home.earthlink.net/~karrigoni/writeaway/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:22:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SFrankmail@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.13b26935.253a004d_boundary" --part1_0.13b26935.253a004d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'M NOT SURE IF THIS WENT THROUGH OR NOT SO I AM SENDING IT [AGAIN?]. SANDI --part1_0.13b26935.253a004d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: SFrankmail@aol.com From: SFrankmail@aol.com Full-name: SFrankmail Message-ID: <0.81efa943.2539f551@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:35:45 EDT Subject: Re: Publishers' rates To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 216 I am very curious about the string about the $90+ per hour rate. This is the highest rate per hour that I have ever heard of. How is this actually billed to the publisher? By the hour, entry, per page, per project? I usually average between $35 and $50 per hour, but this is figured out after the project has been completed and has been billed at a per-page rate (which was determined at the beginning of the project). There are times when I hire a typist to help me out, which actually increases the workload possibilities. She charges $25 per hour--she is an excellent typist and is well worth the money, especially when I am in a crunch of some sort. Sandi --part1_0.13b26935.253a004d_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:27:34 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Charging for add-on embedded indexing projects? In-Reply-To: <0.3c6ef0a6.2539f82d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I always charge hourly for embedded indexing. There are just too many issues that can come up that a per page rate cannot handle - file corruption, font and graphics display issues, emailing files, compilation and debugging of the index - things that don't come up in standalone indexes. Some of these are out of your control - for instance, how the pages are laid out, how much conditional text is used, how complex the design is, and therefore how many additional fonts you may have to install so that the pages display correctly and you don't corrupt the files, whether you need to see the graphics to index them, and therefore must download bigger files. Part of the job at times is to educate the production staff so they know how not to accidently delete the indexing codes once the files are indexed, because honestly sometimes they don't know. Hourly is the only way to go. I use TraxTime to clock the hours, so if a client ever wants to see a breakdown of what process was going on and when, I can send them time tracking info. Jan Wright At 11:47 AM 10/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I have a new client that I just finished creating a FrameMaker embedded >index for. The client liked my work and also wants me to update the >index when the manual is updated (changed and new information in the >manual, added chapters, and so forth). > >The only other client that I do this type of updating work for trusts me >enough to let me charge an hourly fee for this sort of work. A per-page >rate doesn't seem quite fair if I've already indexed most of the manual >already. Yet, on the other hand, I have a feeling that this could run >into a bit of work, depending on the extent of the changes. I was >wondering how other people charge for this type of work (other than an >hourly rate), or is an hourly rate the only way to go? > >Thanks for any advice. > >Karin Arrigoni >Write Away Editorial Services >San Jose, California >URL: http://home.earthlink.net/~karrigoni/writeaway/index.htm =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:47:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Psvenndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good Afternoon All, Several months ago many of us became aware of some new US Postal Service changes proposed for private mailbox holders. I received a note that said that the Postal Service had notified the MailBoxes Etc. corporate office that instead of using PMB as part of your address, you may use # instead in front of your box number. You may not use suite or apt beginning in April. Pamela Venneman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:01:04 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Postal Service MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, I just saw the notice in my mailbox place this week too. It is a victory for all of us who use a "mailbox address". I'm so glad the Postal Service didn't get it's way on this. Since they were threatening to turn mail back that was "incorrectly" addressed, it had dire implications for those of us who use such addresses. I envisioned my 1099 forms going lost next January/February. Not to mention lost packages and business. The power of the people has prevailed! It's good to know our voices can still be heard! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:37:03 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Katie Banks Subject: Re: The Reagan Bio "Dutch" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If the author knew what was to be in the index as he wrote the book, perhaps he did his own indexing? Just a thought. That might also explain why a distinction was not made between real and fictional characters - in the author's mind there seems to have been a fairly fuzzy distinction. Katie Banks Eagle-Eye Indexing -----Original Message----- From: Jean Middleton To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 12:50 PM Subject: The Reagan Bio "Dutch" >There was recently some discussion here of the index in "Dutch," the >recent Reagan biography. I am reading the book now and just came upon >something interesting, the mention of the index in he text! Here is the >excerpt on page 170: > >"At least one boy, ten-year-old Jerry Parr of Miami, Florida, vowed that >he, too, would become a Secret Service agent like Brass Bancroft >[character played by Reagan in a movie], 'dauntless in the face of >danger. . .fearless in the face of death!' Readers interested in young >Parr's subsequent career should check his name in the index." > >Of course I checked the index (p. 857) and found the following: > >Parr, Jerry, 170, 428-29, 430, 432 > >Of course Jerry Parr went on to be the Secret Service agent who may have >saved Reagan's life during the assassination attempt. > >I just thought some of you might be interested that the index was >actually noted in the text of the book, something I find quite unusual. >Am I wrong? > >Jean Middleton >IndexEmpire Indexing Services >http://www.indexempire.com >Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:05:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marlene: For future reference, I always ask for a line length approximation from the editor before I begin. When I reach an appropriate mark, I see how many lines I have. This way, I can track the progress of the index length and insure I do not go beyond the set limitations. As for your current situation, try deleting entries (if less important) that only appear once. Rob -- Robert A. , President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:03:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Postal Service In-Reply-To: <199910161702.NAA18252@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Yes, I just saw the notice in my mailbox place this week too. It is a > victory for all of us who use a "mailbox address". I'm so glad > the Postal > Service didn't get it's way on this. Since they were threatening to turn > mail back that was "incorrectly" addressed, it had dire implications for > those of us who use such addresses. I envisioned my 1099 forms going lost > next January/February. Not to mention lost packages and business. > > The power of the people has prevailed! It's good to know our voices can > still be heard! At the risk of seeming a wet blanket, it is an incomplete victory and perhaps even premature to categorize it as a victory. I believe I was the first to bring up this matter and have been following it closely through a Web site called www.postalwatch.org. The last update I had from them said that the USPS had *verbally* stated that the PMB designation was no longer a requirement, but had not actually changed the regulation. I've had no such notice from my Mailboxes Etc. office. A victory to me would be when the USPS completely drops the issue and lets things stay the way they were. As it is, the USPS still reserves the right to not deliver your mail if you use the designation "suite" in your address. You are still faced with the expense of printing new stationery if you have used "suite" on your old stationery. You are still faced with notifying everyone who ever did business with you as a "suite" that they may no longer do so. This includes not only your clients, but every mail order house you've ever bought supplies from, every computer dealer, both hardware and software, who has your equipement registered under a "suite" address, and even people you've never heard of who have simply filed your old "suite" address from an old ad or Yellow Pages listing. And even once you've notified them, you have no control over whether or not they *use* the new address. So, even if the USPS does back off to the extent mentioned, we are all still very much at risk for losing important correspondence. And I won't even get started on the privacy issues of having to supply personal information on the form 1583 that is subsequently available to anyone who asks for it. Not just postal inspectors or law enforcement agents with legitimate warrants, but *anyone*. If our voices were truly being heard, then this fiasco would never have gotten past the initial call for comments when replies ran 8000 against and only 10 in favor of these new regulations. The USPS has never demonstrated that there is any significant problem that will be solved by mandating the new addressing scheme. The whole thing is a bureaucratic solution in search of a problem. For a more complete history, see www.postalwatch.org. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:59:03 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: michelle wiseman Subject: LMP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all- I have ordered a copy of the Literary Market Place 2000. The only information I have is that it is to be released in October 1999. Does anyone have any more specific information on the release date? I am in Montana, and my public library does not have a copy of Literary Market Place. What else can I be doing to market my services? To date I have completed two for-pay indexes, and I am anxious to get going on marketing. However, I feel like I am kind of stuck with no way to get a copy of LMP soon. TIA, Michelle Wiseman By-The-Book Indexing Services ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:36:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 10/15/1999 10:42 PM Marlene London wrote (in part): >I have just overindexed a book and now have to cut drastically. I'm >familiar with Mulvany and CMS. Are there any other tricks to prevent this? I keep a small spreadsheet for each active index. As I finish a chapter (or other appropriate segment) I enter: current page number number of entries number of lines number of references (all as provided by Cindex) To the right of these are calculation cells which yield: entries per page lines per page references per page percent of completion chapter number (calculated) date and time of completion (manual entry) As Rob indicated, you need some goal from the editor. Mine usually provide the maximum allowable number of lines. Some indicate a maximum number of pages from which I calculate lines. Even if the editor tells me there is no length limit, I maintain the spreadsheet because it is a good progress indicator for me. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:37:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EMickiT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Good index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is really wonderful to hear an index praised on Index-L. I am sure it will be of help to new indexers to have another source for good examples, in addition to the Wilson Awards. Experienced indexers would probably also appreciate a "good read." Erin (Micki) Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:41:14 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: LMP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit michelle wiseman wrote: > Hi all- > > I have ordered a copy of the Literary Market Place 2000. The only > information I have is that it is to be released in October 1999. Does > anyone have any more specific information on the release date? I am in > Montana, and my public library does not have a copy of Literary Market > Place. What else can I be doing to market my services? To date I have > completed two for-pay indexes, and I am anxious to get going on marketing. > However, I feel like I am kind of stuck with no way to get a copy of LMP > soon. > I would suggest ordering a copy of "Writer's Market" from Amazon.com. It is quite inexpensive compared to LMP (although not as comprehensive of course). It will help until your LMP arrives. Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:54:01 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: The Reagan Bio "Dutch" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katie Banks wrote: > If the author knew what was to be in the index as he wrote the book, perhaps > he did his own indexing? Just a thought. > Katie, I had not thought of the author's doing his own indexing, but that is certainly a possibility. Jean Middleton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:20:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Publishers rates In-Reply-To: <199910160402.AAA05083@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forgive me. My note was misleading if it seemed to say that I recommended taking advantage of clients. I was not suggesting that indexers gouge their clients and I do bid different rates depending on the density of sample pages. I do not work with childrens' books, but that sort of book is what I had in mind when I said "unless there is only one line of text per page." I think the problem of "price-gouging" is much less common among indexers than the problem of underbidding, and that was the problem my note was meant to address. As far as textbooks, professional books, and scholarly books go, I know of many instances in this sector of the market where indexers are working for $3/page and making roughly $30/hour. If memory serves me right, the last ASI survey listed this as the average or median. I do figure my income on an hourly rate, and I recommend doing so, to make sure you are bidding correctly. It is important to remember that an hourly rate for a freelancer must pay for cash benefits such as health and disability insurance, office overhead and equipment, holidays, sick days, vacation days, marketing and bidding time, and all other non-billable hours as well as times in between jobs, professional development, etc. In short, $30/hour is roughly equivalent to an annualized workplace salary of $30,000. My congratulations to the indexer who is making $90,000/year, but I think it is the exceptional indexer who is making even $50,000 after benefits and expenses are deducted. Also, I would like to remind people that although this is a sensitive and controversial subject, I think we should all give each other the benefit of the doubt and conduct our discussion on the assumption that everyone is speaking in good faith. Otherwise, it will be that much harder for people to disclose sensitive information, even if many of us would benefit from the increased communication. Susan Susan Holbert --- 781-893-0514 "Basic Indexing Skills" training video Boston-area workshop October 30 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:55:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Postal Service Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:01 PM 10/16/99 EDT, JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: >Yes, I just saw the notice in my mailbox place this week too. It is a >victory for all of us who use a "mailbox address". I'm so glad the Postal >Service didn't get it's way on this. Since they were threatening to turn >mail back that was "incorrectly" addressed, it had dire implications for >those of us who use such addresses. I envisioned my 1099 forms going lost >next January/February. Not to mention lost packages and business. Thanks goodness! I had just had mailing labels and business cards printed up when the original directive was handed down, and was mad as hell about it. Luckily, I had chosen to use the number sign (#175) on both items, so I guess I am now in the clear, and won't have to either write over a perfectly good label, or toss them all out. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:55:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Publishers' rates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:35 AM 10/16/99 EDT, SFrankmail@AOL.COM wrote: >I am very curious about the string about the $90+ per hour rate. This is the >highest rate per hour that I have ever heard of. How is this actually billed >to the publisher? By the hour, entry, per page, per project? I usually >average between $35 and $50 per hour, but this is figured out after the >project has been completed and has been billed at a per-page rate (which was >determined at the beginning of the project). $90 an hour is indeed a premium rate, but I get pretty close to that with some projects. If the publisher pays $3.50 a page, and the material is simple and very well organized, and there is no need to include an author or name index, I can whizz through the pages at a very fast pace and still produce a complete and well-designed index. On jobs like that, I occasionally come very close to $90 an hour...and certainly can average $60-$70 an hour. In fact, I once did an index for a book that was about 150 pages (a library edition of a self-help notebook that HAD to have an index, even though the subject didn't require it) and made about $100 an hour while charging only $1.50 a page. It all boils down to a combination of subject matter, density of material, organization, and your own work speed. The occasional "winner" in the per-hour-rate category makes up a little bit for the beasts where we end up earning about $15 an hour no matter what outrageous per-page rate we are able to negotiate. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:30:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kara, I developed a Let's Get Profitable! workshop that I presented at our 5th Annual Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference this September in Colorado. I just sent a proposal into ASI for presenting this workshop at the ASI National Convention in Albuquerque. I discuss everything that has helped me increase my efficiency and profitability; indexing workflow analysis, maximizing the application of indexing software capabilities, utilizing macros, incorporating voice recognition software, financial planning, marketing, and software/hardware planning. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 11728 Elkhead Range Road Littleton, CO 80127-3706 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > Susan, what have you done to increase your efficiency and workflow? As a > result of a discussion on Index-L some time ago, I have stopped marking > text for all but the most complex books, and that has certainly > increased my speed somewhat. However, I would like to increase my > speed and efficiency still further. Can you share some things which > have been helpful for you? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Indexer Wanted: Full-time in-house position Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Permanent, full-time position in the Minnesota Senate (Saint Paul, Minnesota) as an Indexer in the Index Department. Will be responsible for online summarizing and assigning of subject headings for bills introduced in the Senate, keeping miscellaneous records, assisting in compiling the print index to the permanent Senate Journal and answering research questions under supervision of the Director of Index. Duties: reads, analyzes and summarizes the content of bills introduced in the Senate and assigns appropriate subject headings for retrieval from the Internet legislative bill status system. Monitors Senate floor sessions and maintains records of proceedings. Maintains miscellaneous records. Assists in preparation of portions of the index to the permanent Senate Journal. Assists in and responds to research requests for information dissemination purposes. Candidate must possess a bachelor's degree or a combination of education and experience providing knowledge of the principles of indexing, excellent writing and communication skills and accuracy under pressure. Legislative, legal, publications or proofreading and computer experience preferred. Must be able to work extended hours when necessary. Beginning annual salary: $25,766; salary commensurate with experience. Please send resume, cover letter and list of references by November 15, 1999 to: Judy Askeland Director of Index Room 110 State Capitol Building 75 Constitution Avenue St. Paul, MN 55155 Fax: 651-296-6511 Email: judya@senate.leg.state.mn.us Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:36:57 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Indexer Wanted: Full-time in-house position MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry: Thanks for posting the job opening. I've gotta ask considering the location: What is the party breakdown of the state legislature? Are you in a position to know? Thanks. Max Dalrymple -----Original Message----- From: larryh123@HOME.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Saturday, October 16, 1999 4:41 PM Subject: Indexer Wanted: Full-time in-house position >Permanent, full-time position in the Minnesota Senate (Saint Paul, >Minnesota) as an Indexer in the Index Department. Will be responsible >for online summarizing and assigning of subject headings for bills >introduced in the Senate, keeping miscellaneous records, assisting in >compiling the print index to the permanent Senate Journal and >answering research questions under supervision of the Director of >Index. > >Duties: reads, analyzes and summarizes the content of bills >introduced in the Senate and assigns appropriate subject headings for >retrieval from the Internet legislative bill status system. Monitors >Senate floor sessions and maintains records of proceedings. Maintains >miscellaneous records. Assists in preparation of portions of the >index to the permanent Senate Journal. Assists in and responds to >research requests for information dissemination purposes. > >Candidate must possess a bachelor's degree or a combination of >education and experience providing knowledge of the principles of >indexing, excellent writing and communication skills and accuracy >under pressure. Legislative, legal, publications or proofreading and >computer experience preferred. Must be able to work extended hours >when necessary. > >Beginning annual salary: $25,766; salary commensurate with experience. > >Please send resume, cover letter and list of references by November >15, 1999 to: > >Judy Askeland >Director of Index >Room 110 State Capitol Building >75 Constitution Avenue >St. Paul, MN 55155 >Fax: 651-296-6511 >Email: judya@senate.leg.state.mn.us > > > >Regards, >Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter >[please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:42:25 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Popes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've looked sporadically at the data bases and other references that list the popes. Every one lists the reign of the popes, but not their birth and death dates. Although I could conceivably look up every date of every Pope, the thought of that much computer time makes me ask: Has anyone seen a LIST of Popes with their birthdates and death dates in Day Month and Year? Thank you very much those who respond as well as those who have responded to my earlier inquiries. Max Dalrymple mdalry@sr66.com http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:10:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991016205538.00ff4ea8@slonet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: >In fact, I once did an index for a book that was about 150 pages (a library >edition of a self-help notebook that HAD to have an index, even though the >subject didn't require it) and made about $100 an hour while charging only >$1.50 a page. It all boils down to a combination of subject matter, density >of material, organization, and your own work speed. The occasional "winner" >in the per-hour-rate category makes up a little bit for the beasts where we >end up earning about $15 an hour no matter what outrageous per-page rate we >are able to negotiate. Thanks for expressing this aspect of the hourly rate issue, Sonsie. There are also projects that we get that occur on an annual or quarterly basis. Once we've indexed material for one year, we're already familiar with the context of information in the material and how to index it. The hourly rate for this kind of job is obviously much higher than material wihich we are analyzing and indexing for the first time. The amount of familiarity with material we are indexing should have a major impact on what our hourly rate is for that particular project. Willa (who is shocked how far ahead the Red Sox are..it's almost worth missing out on a contra dance to watch.....:::) ) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 17:43:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: Re: Popes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max, The only suggestions I can offer are the Catholic Encyclopedia, which apparently has biographical listings for all the popes (see http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/09224a.htm for background information); and perhaps a biographical dictionary or encyclopedia, although I would imagine this is a very time-consuming way of going about it. Regards, Homer ----- Homer Ellison Advantage Media Solutions Manuscript services info@advmediasol.com http://www.advmediasol.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Max Dalrymple To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Popes > I've looked sporadically at the data bases and other references that list > the popes. Every one lists the reign of the popes, but not their birth and > death dates. Although I could conceivably look up every date of every Pope, > the thought of that much computer time makes me ask: Has anyone seen a LIST > of Popes with their birthdates and death dates in Day Month and Year? Thank > you very much those who respond as well as those who have responded to my > earlier inquiries. > > Max Dalrymple > mdalry@sr66.com > http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:48:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: marvant duhon Subject: Re: Popes In-Reply-To: <002b01bf1838$aab224e0$0bc156d1@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Good suggestion but there just aren't birth years or birth months (sometimes there is a birth month without a birth year for prominent Christians; I suspect that may be the case with some premodern popes) for dozens of popes. The years that we do have for some are probably wrong. This has been no secret to the popes (nor have they tried to keep it secret from the public: there is no claim of papal infallability in such matters as this one); in fact the matter is messier still in some periods. More than one pope has appointed a commission of scholars to determine which of several claimants in a past time had actually held the title, or how many previous popes of his name had preceded him in office. Though the lists all look very neat now, popes named John have more than once been revised their numbering, with the most controversial question being whether the pope claimed to be female (Joan and John in Latin become equivalent for numbering) was or was not a pope. Death years are the last year of reign, with one possible exception. Best, Marvant On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Homer Ellison wrote: > Max, > > The only suggestions I can offer are the Catholic Encyclopedia, which > apparently has biographical listings for all the popes (see > http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/09224a.htm for background information); > and perhaps a biographical dictionary or encyclopedia, although I would > imagine this is a very time-consuming way of going about it. > > Regards, > Homer > > ----- > Homer Ellison > > Advantage Media Solutions > Manuscript services > info@advmediasol.com > http://www.advmediasol.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Max Dalrymple > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: Popes > > > > I've looked sporadically at the data bases and other references that list > > the popes. Every one lists the reign of the popes, but not their birth > and > > death dates. Although I could conceivably look up every date of every > Pope, > > the thought of that much computer time makes me ask: Has anyone seen a > LIST > > of Popes with their birthdates and death dates in Day Month and Year? > Thank > > you very much those who respond as well as those who have responded to my > > earlier inquiries. > > > > Max Dalrymple > > mdalry@sr66.com > > http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:28:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF1804.4AD6F340" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF1804.4AD6F340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. = I did not know this and would not choose it. =20 I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I = assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent = through the email program. Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been = writing directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. Over, Ardith ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF1804.4AD6F340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,
 
I have just been informed that my = postings come to=20 you as attachments.  I did not know this and would not choose = it. =20
 
I have seen this from some other = indexers who write=20 to the Index-L.  I assumed they were written in a word processing = program=20 and then sent through the email program.
 
Does anyone know how I can change this=20 dynamic?  I have simply been writing directly in my Outlook Express = New=20 Mail or Reply To categories.
 
Over,  Ardith
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF1804.4AD6F340-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:41:11 -0400 Reply-To: Nospam@mymailbox.concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marlene London wrote: > > I have just overindexed a book and now have to cut drastically. I'm > familiar with Mulvany and CMS. Are there any other tricks to prevent this? > > Marlene London > Profindex@worldnet.att.net I just got back from an ASI Heartland chapter conference in which Maria Coughlin gave out handouts that had a whole list of remedies for shortening a too-long index. If you're interested, I could email them to you privately--unless others on the list would like to see them also. My favorite was "Leave out the Letter L", which she said she told an editor once, when the editor refused to give her more pages. (Yes, she got the pages!) The list is serious, however, and has some really excellent suggestions. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:26:51 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely, definitely and without question I think the important word should go first. It is usually possible to do this quite easily; if not then a decision has to be made depending on the importance of the other words in the subheading. For example, in the example below 'Vertigo banned by' gives more specific information than 'and Vertigo' and also puts the important word where it will be most useful. If I use 'and', which is rarely, I put it at the end. Someone at an AusSI meeting pointed out that there can be a different meaning with 'and' at the front or back, eg, climate change and butterflies butterflies and where we decided that one was the effect of butterflies on climate change and the other the effect on butterflies of climate change. We also decided, however, that both of these could be worded better (eg, butterflies' effect on). In the index I have just finished I decided that the distinction between 'and' at the front and back was too subtle, and, again, there were nearly always better ways to word things. Glenda. > If subheadings are to be arranged alphabetically, what is the best way of > wording them? Should the key word comes first, or can the word used for > alphabetical sorting be an arbitrarily chosen word? Let me explain what I > mean by way of an example. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 05:33:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Doris Rich Subject: Re: Indexer Wanted: Full-time in-house position Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apply, apply, apply....I can do what I need to do anywhere. ---------- >From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Indexer Wanted: Full-time in-house position >Date: Sat, Oct 16, 1999, 6:18 PM > > Permanent, full-time position in the Minnesota Senate (Saint Paul, > Minnesota) as an Indexer in the Index Department. Will be responsible > for online summarizing and assigning of subject headings for bills > introduced in the Senate, keeping miscellaneous records, assisting in > compiling the print index to the permanent Senate Journal and > answering research questions under supervision of the Director of > Index. > > Duties: reads, analyzes and summarizes the content of bills > introduced in the Senate and assigns appropriate subject headings for > retrieval from the Internet legislative bill status system. Monitors > Senate floor sessions and maintains records of proceedings. Maintains > miscellaneous records. Assists in preparation of portions of the > index to the permanent Senate Journal. Assists in and responds to > research requests for information dissemination purposes. > > Candidate must possess a bachelor's degree or a combination of > education and experience providing knowledge of the principles of > indexing, excellent writing and communication skills and accuracy > under pressure. Legislative, legal, publications or proofreading and > computer experience preferred. Must be able to work extended hours > when necessary. > > Beginning annual salary: $25,766; salary commensurate with experience. > > Please send resume, cover letter and list of references by November > 15, 1999 to: > > Judy Askeland > Director of Index > Room 110 State Capitol Building > 75 Constitution Avenue > St. Paul, MN 55155 > Fax: 651-296-6511 > Email: judya@senate.leg.state.mn.us > > > > Regards, > Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter > [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:28:33 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: LMP Comments: To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Our public library nbow has the LMP 2000 so it must be out, somewhere. Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:42:06 -0700 Reply-To: Charles Anderson Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Organization: the-indexer.com Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig has some good advice. For what it's worth, I do something similar while working on an index, but I add a couple of items that some might find useful: 1) I use the NOW function in Excel to enter the current date and time automatically, then I add the Elapsed time figure from Cindex and have Excel calculate the time per page. 2) Then I have Excel project some more calculations: Total time Total entries Total lines Total references 3) I also enter the maximum (lines, pages, etc.) from the editor and have a calculated value for how much I am currently over or under. 4) Finally, at the end of each index I use these figures in my Timekeep for Windows project to build the Index Estimator database to refine my estimating capabilities. It's all a little extra work but in a way amusing, interesting, and possibly helpful. Maybe I just like tinkering with software! Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com P.O. Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 phone: 206-985-8799 fax: 206-985-8796 anderson@the-indexer.com http://www.the-indexer.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Brown To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING > On 10/15/1999 10:42 PM Marlene London wrote (in part): > > >I have just overindexed a book and now have to cut drastically. I'm > >familiar with Mulvany and CMS. Are there any other tricks to prevent this? > > I keep a small spreadsheet for each active index. As I finish a chapter > (or other appropriate segment) I enter: > > current page number > number of entries > number of lines > number of references (all as provided by Cindex) > > To the right of these are calculation cells which yield: > > entries per page > lines per page > references per page > percent of completion > chapter number (calculated) > date and time of completion (manual entry) > > As Rob indicated, you need some goal from the editor. Mine usually > provide the maximum allowable number of lines. Some indicate a maximum > number of pages from which I calculate lines. Even if the editor tells > me there is no length limit, I maintain the spreadsheet because it is a > good progress indicator for me. > > hth, > > > Craig Brown > The Last Word > Indexing Services > (314) 352-9094 > lastword@mindspring.com > http://lastword.home.mindspring.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:43:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Willa wrote: The hourly rate for this kind of job is obviously much higher than material wihich we are analyzing and indexing for the first time. Why is it more? I would think it should be less since there is less "analyzing" and a certain eased familiarity with the subject and style, etc. Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ardith, I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click "properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 attachment on each, though I have not added any! Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for the above reason and others. I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that version number! :) Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services To: Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Postings as Attachments Dear List, I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I did not know this and would not choose it. I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent through the email program. Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. Over, Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:52:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I keep a small spreadsheet for each active index. As I finish a chapter > (or other appropriate segment) I enter: > > current page number > number of entries > number of lines > number of references (all as provided by Cindex) > > To the right of these are calculation cells which yield: > > entries per page > lines per page > references per page > percent of completion > chapter number (calculated) > date and time of completion (manual entry) For those using SKYIndex, the Statistics function tracks many of these -- number of pages indexed, number of lines, time elapsed, and entries per page are the ones I find most useful for keeping tabs on how well or poorly I'm meeting the targeted length. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 19:36:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <000001bf18f2$3ea7cd80$f0c5fea9@net.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >Why is it more? I would think it should be less since there is less >"analyzing" and a certain eased familiarity with the subject and style, etc. >Ardith Hi All: Actually, the analyzing is still the same for each year of this particular project. The same amount of material has to be picked up properly on an annual basis. I think individual rates can vary when people have indexed a specific subject enough times to be really familiar with the terminology and the software they are using. Once somone has mastered terminology in a specific topic and software issues, it would seem as though they should be able to increase their hourly rate of income because they are faster at analyzing material and entering that material in their softare of choice. . Willa (trying to find my brother and his wife in the fans at Fenway Park among the thousands of Sox fans there...Go Sox! :) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:53:51 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SamS Subject: Re: Popes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Catholic Popes, nowadays, have a secular name and the oficial name = (John Paul II). The first one, Peter, is an obvious exception. = That is why it seems difficult to have a list of secular names for all the = popes, followed by secular dates of birth and death. I recommend the American Theological Library Association = Discussion List [ATLANTIS] at atlantis@lyris.hds.harvard.edu for this question Samuel Robinson Librarian Sao Paulo - Brazil ---------- De: Max Dalrymple[SMTP:mdalry@SR66.COM] Responder: Indexer's Discussion Group Enviada: S=E1bado, 16 de Outubro de 1999 20:42 Para: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Assunto: Re: Popes I've looked sporadically at the data bases and other references that = list the popes. Every one lists the reign of the popes, but not their birth = and death dates. Although I could conceivably look up every date of every = Pope, the thought of that much computer time makes me ask: Has anyone seen a = LIST of Popes with their birthdates and death dates in Day Month and Year? = Thank you very much those who respond as well as those who have responded to = my earlier inquiries. Max Dalrymple mdalry@sr66.com http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:38:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Darrell Hubbard Subject: Classification of Economic Industries and Job Occupations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am seeking up-to-date sources for Classifying and Indexing all Economic Sectors (Industries) and Job Occupations. We have been using NAICS and SOC classification systems, provided by the government, as a basis. However, these sources are not complete in defining industries and occupations in areas such as Technology or Professional Services. Would anyone have any links to online sources or have done any previous work in this area which would be useful? Darrell Hubbard Chairman and CEO, www.thekx.com THE Knowledge Xchange Helping People Succeed through Knowledge ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:54:42 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Ardith, I have gotten quite a few of your posts as attachments last week. MANJIT >From: Ann Truesdale >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments >Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:01:12 -0400 > >Ardith, > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 >attachment >on each, though I have not added any! > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for >the above reason and others. > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that >version number! :) > >Ann > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > >Dear List, > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I >did not know this and would not choose it. > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent >through >the email program. > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > >Over, Ardith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:24:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small Claims Court MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/99 8:29:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elinzer@JUNO.COM writes: << There is also a City Marshall. I can never remember the jurisdiction of each, but both exist to collect debts.). >> Elliot; The Marshall's jurisdiction is city wide. :-) Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 20:04:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ardith, I haven't been receiving your messages as attachments, but I have an idea as to why some might be. I notice that you send your messages in HTML format. Some e-mail programs can only handle plain text and not HTML. You might want to try configuring your software to compose messages to the list in plain text. FWIW, I have Outlook Express too, but to my knowledge I've never had this problem. It sounds like something in the way you have your software configured--I would start with setting it for plain text. I hope this helps. Regards, Homer ----- Homer Ellison Advantage Media Solutions Manuscript services info@advmediasol.com http://www.advmediasol.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Manjit Sahai To: Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:54 PM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > Hi Ardith, > > I have gotten quite a few of your posts as attachments last week. > > MANJIT > > > >From: Ann Truesdale > >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" > >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > >Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > >Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:01:12 -0400 > > > >Ardith, > > > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using > >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click > >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 > >attachment > >on each, though I have not added any! > > > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook > >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for > >the above reason and others. > > > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that > >version number! :) > > > >Ann > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM > >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > > > > >Dear List, > > > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I > >did not know this and would not choose it. > > > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I > >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent > >through > >the email program. > > > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing > >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > > > >Over, Ardith > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:30:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Illustrations ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must complete an index tomorrow and am not sure how to handle locators for illustrations. For example: adaptive devices, 22-23, 23 table 2-5 When the page number with the illustration is already a locator (22-23), can I leave out the reference to the illustration (23 table 2-5)? I have looked in Chicago, Mulvany, and Wellisch without success. Mulvany seems to come closest by saying, "If the display material appears on the same page as textual discussion of the material, it is usually not necessary to index the display individually." Second question: If there are two illustrations on a page: endoscope, 80 fig. 4-2, 80 fig. 4-3 is there a shorthand to combine them. 80 figs. 4-2 - 4-3 seems awkward. Thank you, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:38:54 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Phyllis Manner Subject: Re: Illustrations ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I always put page numbers of figures in italics, and page numbers followed by a t to indicate tables. P Manner ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:46:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Shrout Subject: Re: Illustrations ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You really should contact your publisher. Each of mine has different policies on the handling of illustrations. If they have no policy, then I would suggest leaving out special references to illustrations. You will likely get other opinions from the collective wisdom. Thought I would answer since you won't get many responses this time of night on Sunday. Richard Shrout Dalindex@AOL.COM wrote: > > I must complete an index tomorrow and am not sure how to handle locators for > illustrations. > > For example: > > adaptive devices, 22-23, 23 table 2-5 > > When the page number with the illustration is already a locator (22-23), can > I leave out the reference to the illustration (23 table 2-5)? > > I have looked in Chicago, Mulvany, and Wellisch without success. Mulvany > seems to come closest by saying, "If the display material appears on the same > page as textual discussion of the material, it is usually not necessary to > index the display individually." > > Second question: > > If there are two illustrations on a page: > > endoscope, 80 fig. 4-2, 80 fig. 4-3 > > is there a shorthand to combine them. 80 figs. 4-2 - 4-3 seems awkward. > > Thank you, > Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:08:41 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I, too, use Outlook Express. I was told last week I was sending an attachment, a rolodex card with little more on it than my name and an e-mail address I no longer use. I removed the attachment in TOOLS and either STATIONARY or OPTIONS. Then I mailed the person back who was candid enough to tell me about the attachments. She wrote back to tell me I still had the attachments! I then clicked on TOOLS, etc., and instead of removing the checkmark that said I wanted attachments - yes, it was there again - I erased everything that was listed in the attachments including that e-mail service I cancelled as soon as I tried it. Then I e-mailed again and told there were not attachments. I have concluded that Outlook Express is not the most user friendly e-mail program, although I'm willing to suspect that there are unscrupulous e-mail services that derive some unknown benefit from creating attachments which Outlook Express users need to look out for. That being said, I must admit that my use of the Index List has increased my mail to the extent that I know get a notice telling me I need to compact my e-mail. I have tried twice to put my mail in folders and each time I do I've gotten a message that tells me I cannot do what I just attempted I need to try doing what I just attempted. If any Outlook Express user has a suggestion to make, I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to thank those who've responded to the Popes question. I've searched until frustrated about three times. The first two times I knew the death dates were almost always the last year of reign date, but I had forgotten I had that much information. The suggestion I try the other LIST is probably a solution I will try. Thanks again. Max Max Dalrymple who will be putting up the beta versions of http://www.computerhealthinfo.com again - and who will probably be putting up the beta version of http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc soon! -----Original Message----- From: Ann Truesdale To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments >Ardith, > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 attachment >on each, though I have not added any! > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for >the above reason and others. > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that >version number! :) > >Ann > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > >Dear List, > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I >did not know this and would not choose it. > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent through >the email program. > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > >Over, Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "sctopping:First sctopping:Last" Subject: Re: Illustrations ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I usually indicate illustrations by italicizing the page number. I do not indicate the figure or table number in the page locator. It is sufficient that the reader knows that the italicized page number indicates an illustration -- not "which" illustration. Tables are indicated by the page number followed by an italicized t (maps are m; footnotes are n; etc.) Then I compose a short explanatory note for the index heading. Unless there are specific reasons not to use this system, every publisher I've worked with approves of it. -----Original Message----- From: Dalindex@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:41 PM Subject: Illustrations ? >I must complete an index tomorrow and am not sure how to handle locators for >illustrations. > >For example: > >adaptive devices, 22-23, 23 table 2-5 > >When the page number with the illustration is already a locator (22-23), can >I leave out the reference to the illustration (23 table 2-5)? > >I have looked in Chicago, Mulvany, and Wellisch without success. Mulvany >seems to come closest by saying, "If the display material appears on the same >page as textual discussion of the material, it is usually not necessary to >index the display individually." > > >Second question: > >If there are two illustrations on a page: > >endoscope, 80 fig. 4-2, 80 fig. 4-3 > >is there a shorthand to combine them. 80 figs. 4-2 - 4-3 seems awkward. > >Thank you, >Debbie > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:42:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Illustration Thank Yous MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Marlene, Richard, and Phyllis for your late night (or early morning) help on illustrations. I am going with Marlene's suggestions. This publisher has no guidelines; it is their first index. Also, space is not a problem so I am going to spell out "table" and use "fig." rather than italics. When I went through and deleted the illustration locators that duplicated the text locators, there weren't any with multiple illustrations on a page. But I will use the suggestion, "80 fig. 4-2, 4-3" in the future. With much appreciation, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 10:29:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments In-Reply-To: <004001bf18f1$bc63b820$b5c5f7a5@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not getting anyone's mail as attachments but from some people I always get a little attached file called vcf and from some people little gif files. I never use them that I know of, and can't figure out what they are. One is a teeny picture of ivy, one is from Max D, and I can't remember who else I get them from. No offense to anyone who's generating them, but I find them extremely annoying. Is there some use for these that I don't know of? Can they be turned off somehow? Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:56:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I can't stand by and watch the discussion about this any more without suggesting that people frustrated with Outlook Express (or Netscape Communicator) take a serious look at Eudora, which I consider a "real" email program for both Windows and Mac. They have a free downloadable "Light" product which I used for years before finally putting up a few bucks for the "Pro" version. I recommend both, because of their nice user interfaces and excellent reliability. http://www.eudora.com/ (Just a happy Eudora user) Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judi Alamia Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Have you tried Eudora? Eudora Light is free; organizes mail as easily as Outlook (not Outlook Express), and in the 18 months I've used it, I've never had a problem. Your storage capacity is limited only by the memory on your PC. www.eudora.com Judi Jalamia@thefund.com -----Original Message----- From: Max Dalrymple [mailto:mdalry@SR66.COM] Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 10:09 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments I, too, use Outlook Express. I was told last week I was sending an attachment, a rolodex card with little more on it than my name and an e-mail address I no longer use. I removed the attachment in TOOLS and either STATIONARY or OPTIONS. Then I mailed the person back who was candid enough to tell me about the attachments. She wrote back to tell me I still had the attachments! I then clicked on TOOLS, etc., and instead of removing the checkmark that said I wanted attachments - yes, it was there again - I erased everything that was listed in the attachments including that e-mail service I cancelled as soon as I tried it. Then I e-mailed again and told there were not attachments. I have concluded that Outlook Express is not the most user friendly e-mail program, although I'm willing to suspect that there are unscrupulous e-mail services that derive some unknown benefit from creating attachments which Outlook Express users need to look out for. That being said, I must admit that my use of the Index List has increased my mail to the extent that I know get a notice telling me I need to compact my e-mail. I have tried twice to put my mail in folders and each time I do I've gotten a message that tells me I cannot do what I just attempted I need to try doing what I just attempted. If any Outlook Express user has a suggestion to make, I'd love to hear it. I'd also like to thank those who've responded to the Popes question. I've searched until frustrated about three times. The first two times I knew the death dates were almost always the last year of reign date, but I had forgotten I had that much information. The suggestion I try the other LIST is probably a solution I will try. Thanks again. Max Max Dalrymple who will be putting up the beta versions of http://www.computerhealthinfo.com again - and who will probably be putting up the beta version of http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc soon! -----Original Message----- From: Ann Truesdale To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:02 PM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments >Ardith, > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 attachment >on each, though I have not added any! > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for >the above reason and others. > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that >version number! :) > >Ann > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > >Dear List, > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I >did not know this and would not choose it. > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent through >the email program. > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > >Over, Ardith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:24:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Eudora also makes it easy to upgrade from one version to the next. I've just upgraded from Eudora 3.0 to Eudora 4.2 over the weekend and wonder why I waited so long to do this. At 11:15 AM 10/18/99 -0400, you wrote: >Have you tried Eudora? Eudora Light is free; organizes mail as easily as >Outlook (not Outlook Express), and in the 18 months I've used it, I've never >had a problem. Your storage capacity is limited only by the memory on your >PC. > >www.eudora.com > >Judi >Jalamia@thefund.com > >-----Original Message----- >From: Max Dalrymple [mailto:mdalry@SR66.COM] >Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 10:09 AM >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > > >I, too, use Outlook Express. I was told last week I was sending an >attachment, a rolodex card with little more on it than my name and an e-mail >address I no longer use. I removed the attachment in TOOLS and either >STATIONARY or OPTIONS. Then I mailed the person back who was candid enough >to tell me about the attachments. She wrote back to tell me I still had the >attachments! I then clicked on TOOLS, etc., and instead of removing the >checkmark that said I wanted attachments - yes, it was there again - I >erased everything that was listed in the attachments including that e-mail >service I cancelled as soon as I tried it. Then I e-mailed again and told >there were not attachments. I have concluded that Outlook Express is not >the most user friendly e-mail program, although I'm willing to suspect that >there are unscrupulous e-mail services that derive some unknown benefit from >creating attachments which Outlook Express users need to look out for. > >That being said, I must admit that my use of the Index List has increased my >mail to the extent that I know get a notice telling me I need to compact my >e-mail. I have tried twice to put my mail in folders and each time I do >I've gotten a message that tells me I cannot do what I just attempted I need >to try doing what I just attempted. If any Outlook Express user has a >suggestion to make, I'd love to hear it. > >I'd also like to thank those who've responded to the Popes question. I've >searched until frustrated about three times. The first two times I knew the >death dates were almost always the last year of reign date, but I had >forgotten I had that much information. The suggestion I try the other LIST >is probably a solution I will try. Thanks again. >Max >Max Dalrymple who will be putting up the beta versions of >http://www.computerhealthinfo.com again - and who will probably be putting >up the beta version of http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc soon! >-----Original Message----- >From: Ann Truesdale >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Date: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:02 PM >Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > > > >Ardith, > > > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also using > >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click > >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 >attachment > >on each, though I have not added any! > > > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with Outlook > >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, for > >the above reason and others. > > > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that > >version number! :) > > > >Ann > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM > >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > > > > >Dear List, > > > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. I > >did not know this and would not choose it. > > > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I > >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent >through > >the email program. > > > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been writing > >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > > > >Over, Ardith Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:29:16 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Eudora MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, Judi, et al - Stop! Sob!! Sob!! You're breaking my heart!! For years I have longed for, lusted for, Eudora (the e-mail program, not Eudora Welty, for whom the program really was named). But that *%$#@$% AOL doesn't support Eudora, because that have made a pact with the Redmond Devil and use Internet (Ugh!) Explorer! And Billy G., like a shrike fledgling, pushes all the other chicks out of the Windows nest... I wonder, if there ever is another Microsoft scandal concerning shredding/deleting e-mail and memos, if the press will refer to the coverup as "Billygate"? Bah! I suppose that I will have to graduate fom the cutesy, merchandised-to-the-max AOL kindergarten to a lean, mean, professional ISP. Off with the training wheels! But what to do with the eight million saved e-mail messages and URLs that use proprietary AOL software and can't be dumped into another readable file? Song of lament (to the tune of "I got Plenty of Nothin'" : I got plenty of e-mail! I just keep getting more! No time to read it, Jes' won't delete it, My old brain sure's gettin' sore! Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:37:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@AOL.COM Subject: Charging for add-on embedded indexing projects? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karin asks, I was wondering how other people charge for this type of work (other than an hourly rate), or is an hourly rate the only way to go? I agree with Jan Wright; I charge by the hour by embedded indexing because you never know how long it's going to take you to do what the client wants you to do (even though your experience will help you estimate). Even if they provided you with revision bars in the document to indicate the changes that they've made, you still have to check some existing index entries, and edit the index after you add index entries for the text that they've added or edited. And you have to make sure that they haven't broken any of your ranges by deleting your index markers. It's hardly ever as straightforward as the client initially leads you to believe. Hope that helps. Peg Mauer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:16:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments Comments: cc: ABBA House Ministries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rachel, =20 That little ivy picture is a stationary available on Outlook Express. = The sender needs to deselect any stationary as your email program is not = compatible with this stationary - naturally! Ardith 8-) Ok, everyone. I am now sending in Plain Text but wondering what this = means: Uuencode. It is an option available in Outlook Express under = Tools/Options/Send/Plain Text. It is not explained in my Help menu, = either! My only other option in Plain Text is MIME format, which I hope is = translated for you at the receiver end into readable text. Also, I have = selected Quoted Printable in Plain Text Settings, hoping this means = MIME will be translated at your end. =20 Please someone let me know how this does now. I have even sent a cc of = this posting to myself on my other email address so I can see what = happens. =20 How vexing it is to receive MIME format untranslated! (as someone so = succintly put it in a posting to me yesterday.) 8-) The weather here in Central Viginia is Gorgeous! Ardith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rachel Rice To: Sent: Monday, October 18, 1999 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > I'm not getting anyone's mail as attachments but from some people I = always > get a little attached file called vcf and from some people little gif > files. I never use them that I know of, and can't figure out what they = are. > One is a teeny picture of ivy, one is from Max D, and I can't remember = who > else I get them from. No offense to anyone who's generating them, but = I > find them extremely annoying. Is there some use for these that I don't = know > of? Can they be turned off somehow? >=20 > Rae >=20 > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 14:12:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: Eudora In-Reply-To: <0.1ecce18b.253ca4dc@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Bah! I suppose that I will have to graduate fom the cutesy, >merchandised-to-the-max AOL kindergarten to a lean, mean, professional ISP. >Off with the training wheels! > >But what to do with the eight million saved e-mail messages and URLs that use >proprietary AOL software and can't be dumped into another readable file? The saved e-mail messages can be forwarded to your ISP account, but I suppose that involves opening each one and it would take a long time, wouldn't it. I wonder whether there is a way of moving them as files. I know that my Eudora folders can be opened (each folder as a whole text file) by at least one of my word processing programs, so sometimes I can just search through a big file to look for a particular person's message that way. I still have an AOL account but switched to another server for most of my access (and I pay about the same; you pay about half for AOL if you use another ISP to go in, and there are lots of cheap ISPs with adequate service), and I am sooooo much happier than when I just used AOL. I very much prefer Netscape to Internet Explorer, and really like Eudora a whole lot. You could move the URLs by using a URL utility, I think, or getting them onto one of the web page services that allows you to store bookmarks. The URL utility I use is URL Manager Pro, found at the web site: http://www.url-manager.com/ It is compatible with either Netscape or Internet Explorer, so you could I assume move all your URLs into URL Manager, and then use that to have them with whatever browser you use with a new ISP. I never downloaded AOL4, so maybe things have improved, but I hated reading e-mail on AOL, there was just this tiny window with room for only about ten lines of text at once, and even when you enlarged the window, there was never the flexibility I have with Eudora. And I do library research and send myself e-mail files from library on-line catalogues; they would come into AOL as attached files if they were bigger than 20 or 25k, while huge texts (as big as 200k) have been swallowed whole in one gulp by my ISP and Eudora. It's just so much more convenient than downloading the attached file. Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 13:42:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Contract Wording Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Yet another contract has come through for a pending job that says: "Payable as follows: $ upon Publisher's acceptance of _____________" I'm interpreting this to mean that I would not be paid if the editor is unhappy with my work. Is that the right interpretation? Is there anything I can do, short of crossing out the objectionable phrase, as suggested earlier on this list. I'm not anticipating any complications with the project, but am wondering if more and more publishers are including this phrase (or a similar one) in their contracts to protect themselves. Any thoughts? Willa (who apologizes if I've sent a duplicate copy of any post to index while adjusting to a new program...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:02:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Publishers' rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Willa wrote: > The hourly rate for this kind of job is obviously much higher than material > which we are analyzing and indexing for the first time. > > Why is it more? I would think it should be less since there is less > "analyzing" and a certain eased familiarity with the subject and style, etc. > Ardith (Hi, Ardith!) I think Willa means that since the per-page rate remains the same, one is able to work faster on subsequent volumes/editions/etc. Since one can work faster, one gets through more pages per hour. 5 pages an hour at $3/page equals $15/hour, 10 pages/hour equals $30/hour, 15 pages/hour equals $45/hour, and so on. This actually holds true for books in the same field, as well. The first time I do a book on a subject that is new to me, I tend to work slower than my average rate. By the time I've done two or three on the same subject, I work faster, because I'm more familiar with the terms/jargon, the concepts, and to some extent even the structure than I was the first time around. Is that more or less what you meant, Willa? Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 12:37:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan McQuarrie Subject: Re: Contract Wording MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, when you write an article for a magazine, typically there is either an agreement to pay upon acceptance or upon publication. For an index, I'd rather be paid upon acceptance than upon publication! Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with the phrase. The editor/publisher is buying a product just as we buy products in stores or online. If the product isn't satisfactory, then we don't expect to have to pay for it. Presumably with an index, it is a professional situation where the editor (except for those few horror stories we see on the list now and then) is not going to be unhappy with a good, professional job. If the editor is unhappy for invalid reasons, then maybe one is out a single fee but has also learned that this is not a person to work for in the future. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com P.O. Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 phone: 206-985-8799 fax: 206-985-8796 anderson@the-indexer.com http://www.the-indexer.com Willa wrote: > Yet another contract has come through for a pending job that says: > "Payable as follows: > > $ upon Publisher's acceptance of _____________" > > I'm interpreting this to mean that I would not be paid if the editor is > unhappy with my work. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 15:40:01 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Contract Wording MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yet another contract has come through for a pending job that says: > > "Payable as follows: > > $ upon Publisher's acceptance of _____________" > > I'm interpreting this to mean that I would not be paid if the editor is > unhappy with my work. > > Is that the right interpretation? Is there anything I can do, short of > crossing out the objectionable phrase, as suggested earlier on this list. You could try crossing out "acceptance" and writing in "receipt." That makes it clear that you expect to be paid for your work regardless of whether the editor likes it. However, you could also make clear to the editor (in a phone call) that in the unlikely event that s/he finds errors of substance, you would be happy to fix them. If you also use that call to clarify any style issues that may arise -- or at least the most foreseeable ones -- the editor will probably be confident enough of your professionalism to let the contract change stand. If the editor isn't comfortable with that change, ask why. Better you know ahead of time if you have a potential "problem client" on your hands! Good luck, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:35:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Publishers' rates In-Reply-To: <199910181905.PAA17334@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >(Hi, Ardith!) > > >This actually holds true for books in the same field, as well. The first >time I do a book on a subject that is new to me, I tend to work slower than >my average rate. By the time I've done two or three on the same subject, I >work faster, because I'm more familiar with the terms/jargon, the concepts, >and to some extent even the structure than I was the first time around. > >Is that more or less what you meant, Willa? Hi All: Yes, Kara, that's exactly what I meant. At least in my experience, I lost out on hours for my first few jobs because I wanted to submit a quality index. I didn't mind putting in additional time on my first few indexes even thoough I might not get paid for it since I wanted the client to like my index. I can't be the only person who lost out on time without pay during my first few indexes, but who has made up the difference later on as my skills increased. Willa (who hopes that Boston fans react more favorably tonite, whether we win or loose....I was ashamed to admit that I was from Boston when I heard the news how fans reacted at the end of the game...) I Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:57:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Eudora (and AOL) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >Bah! I suppose that I will have to graduate fom the cutesy, > >merchandised-to-the-max AOL kindergarten to a lean, mean, professional ISP. > >Off with the training wheels! > > > >But what to do with the eight million saved e-mail messages and URLs that use > >proprietary AOL software and can't be dumped into another readable file? > > The saved e-mail messages can be forwarded to your ISP account, but I > suppose that involves opening each one and it would take a long time, > wouldn't it. I wonder whether there is a way of moving them as files. I > know that my Eudora folders can be opened (each folder as a whole text > file) by at least one of my word processing programs, so sometimes I can > just search through a big file to look for a particular person's message > that way. > Hi all, The AOL folder can be opened as a text document also, but it is one big run-together mess with a lot of garbage thrown in to boot. When I quit AOL I left the program on my computer for a few months so that I could access that e-mail if I needed to. Eventually a lot of it was obsolete. I clipped and pasted the rest into text documents which I placed in a "AOL e-mail" folder. It was a tedious job, but I made it a little easier by clipping several related messages into the same document most of the time. Some ISP's have conversion utilities for URLs and address books available as part of their sign-up process. Mindspring has a link (on its home page I think) that is titled something like "how to kick AOL." I am not sorry that I made the switch. :) Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:27:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING In-Reply-To: <199910160402.AAA05083@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I have just overindexed a book and now have to cut drastically. I'm >familiar with Mulvany and CMS. Are there any other tricks to prevent this? > I'm assuming you had some kind of length limit, which you exceeded? One way that I keep from overindexing is to make early guidelines for myself about the number of entries per page that I expect to find (which varies with the type of book, of course), so I can catch myself if the indexing is getting too finegrained. Watch out for indexing places or events that are included only to give a setting or time frame, e.g., "After World War II, . . . ." If a discussion of topic X spans, say 2 or 3 pages, it isn't necessary (except in some medical contexts) to index (via subentries) every blessed thing said about X. For example, in an art history book, this would be a case of overindexing: _Landscape with Three Gabled Cottages_ (Rembrandt) composition of, 10 dating of, 10 sources for, 10 style of, 11 When a client gives me a length limit that looks like it will be a bit tight, I try to get the client to tell me what kinds of things they're interested in and what can be left out. I also track how fast the index is growing, so I can predict how long the index will be well before I'm done. Sometimes none of that works, and you just have to edit it down anyway. I once had to edit a 6,000-line index to 3,000 lines. The client had told me to index all personal names, titles, themes. This was for a bibliography of art, whose entries averaged of 20 personal names! Even though I extrapolated from a sample so as to warn the client of how huge the resulting index was going to be, they wanted me to do it anyway. Naturally, they were still appalled at how long it turned out to be, so I had to put in many hours on a series of edits, making decisions with the client as to how to cut. I was being paid by the hour on this job, so it was the client who lost money on it. But it was such a shame to have done it that way. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Illustrations ? In-Reply-To: <199910180402.AAA03235@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I must complete an index tomorrow and am not sure how to handle locators for >illustrations. > >For example: > >adaptive devices, 22-23, 23 table 2-5 > >When the page number with the illustration is already a locator (22-23), can >I leave out the reference to the illustration (23 table 2-5)? > >I have looked in Chicago, Mulvany, and Wellisch without success. Mulvany >seems to come closest by saying, "If the display material appears on the same >page as textual discussion of the material, it is usually not necessary to >index the display individually." > > >Second question: > >If there are two illustrations on a page: > >endoscope, 80 fig. 4-2, 80 fig. 4-3 > >is there a shorthand to combine them. 80 figs. 4-2 - 4-3 seems awkward. I never include the table or figure numbers, just the locators. There are several styles for indicating illustrations (assuming your client wants that indicated): put the locator in italics or in bold, include a parenthetical, e.g., 23 (table), 80 (fig.) or 23 (illus.), 80 (illus.) I always check to see if the client has a preference. Some do, some don't. If there's more than one illustration on a page, I just give the one locator and leave it at that. If there are two consecutive pages of illustrations on the same topic, I give a page range, e.g., 80-81 (figs.). I prefer to use itals for locators of illustrations, though, and most of my clients seem to like that style. As for whether it's necessary to indicate illustrations that appear on the same page as the text, I think it depends so much on the book. If you're indexing an art book, you'd certainly want to let readers know which page, if any, has a photo of the painting. Cheers, Carol Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 16:04:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: McAfee Clinic Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone tried the McAfee Clinic? It has gotten a lot of good reviews. Basically, it seems to provide applications for virus scanning without having to update DAT files and scan engines. It also is supposed to provide utilities for optimizing system configuration and Y2K compliance. These utilities are on the McAfee server which you can access as many times as you want for a yearly fee. If anyone has any experience with McAfee Clinic, please email me. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 19:47:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Contract Wording In-Reply-To: <199910182042.QAA08701@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >You could try crossing out "acceptance" and writing in "receipt." That >makes it clear that you expect to be paid for your work regardless of >whether the editor likes it. However, you could also make clear to the >editor (in a phone call) that in the unlikely event that s/he finds errors >of substance, you would be happy to fix them. If you also use that call to >clarify any style issues that may arise -- or at least the most foreseeable >ones -- the editor will probably be confident enough of your >professionalism to let the contract change stand. If the editor isn't >comfortable with that change, ask why. Better you know ahead of time if >you have a potential "problem client" on your hands! Hi All: Thanks, Charles & Kara for your helpful responses. The project actually is a research job rather than an index, and its the first opportunity that I've had to work with this particular editor, who I've gotten to know by supporting a local professional organization in Boston. The contract took me by surprise because of its lengthiness and specificity. The one good thing about this particular project, which I was realizing after I made my post to the list, is that payment is broken into small segments. I would be submitting a sample (one chapter's worth) by midNovember. So it wouldn't be the same as putting in hours on an index and then not getting paid for it. I do like the idea of approaching the editor first, before I sign the contract. As usual, I've learned and appreciated everyone's thoughtfulness. It helps to have the insight of collective wisdom. Willa (hoping that the Red Sox have a better nite tonite....but not holding up hope considering their history....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:27:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marlene London Subject: Re: OVERINDEXING MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Micki Taylor, Rob , Craig Brown, Charles Anderson, Kara Pekar, Carol Roberts, Martha Osgood, Kari Kells, and anyone I may have overlooked: Many thanks for the advice re overindexing. You're a great bunch of collective wisdom. It's so comforting to know you all are out there! Marlene London Professional Indexing Services Profindex@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: locators for illustrations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii You asked: >adaptive devices, 22-23, 23 table 2-5 >When the page number with the illustration is already a locator (22-23), can >I leave out the reference to the illustration (23 table 2-5)? The example is a little odd. I would reformat the locators like this: 22-23, 23 (table 2-5) This would be a way to handle tables, maps, etc. Illustrations (photographs) are usually expressed more simply, using italic type. If this were done, the locators would read: 22-23, 23 (expressed as SGML) Now the question is, can the 2nd reference be left out, since it is included in the range of the first? I say NO - the locators are in different series. First is the series of text references. Second is the series of illustration references. They can actually be separated, with a semicolon, like this: 22-23, 50-55, 100; 23 This makes it clear why the illustration locator can't be suppressed. Clearly, the user should be able to go straight to the illustrations. Their position in the book is usually pretty arbitrary, anyway; but this shouldn't affect how they appear in the index. > 80 fig. 4-2, 80 fig. 4-4 The second example I would express like this: 80 fig. 4-2, 4 or better 80 (fig. 4-2, 4) *** Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Proofreading rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've been asked to make a single estimate for a combined job of proofreading AND indexing. Needless to say, I'll do the two jobs on two sets of pages. I know how to estimate the indexing component; but it's been years (decades) since I've done straight proofreading, and I'm out of touch with the rates. An hourly rate would be useless for the purpose of this blind estimate. (Yes I know it would be foolish to make a blind *BID*, but this will only be an estimate for the purpose of moving the project forward.) I'd like to know a per-page going rate for proofreading against copy. The pages are straight text, in the public policy field, approx. 400 words per page. Is there a newsgroup of proofreaders (parallel to INDEX-L) that might have published going rates? Thanks, everyone. Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:56:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Contract Wording In-Reply-To: <199910190400.AAA12389@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Yet another contract has come through for a pending job that says: > >"Payable as follows: > >$ upon Publisher's acceptance of _____________" > >I'm interpreting this to mean that I would not be paid if the editor is >unhappy with my work. > >Is that the right interpretation? Is there anything I can do, short of >crossing out the objectionable phrase, as suggested earlier on this list. > >I'm not anticipating any complications with the project, but am wondering >if more and more publishers are including this phrase (or a similar one) in >their contracts to protect themselves. > >Any thoughts? The phrase might also mean "upon Publisher's receipt of." In any case, I would cross out "acceptance" and write "receipt" above it, and put my initials in the margin. I've often ammended contacts in this way (e.g., when the contract says I have to have this or that kind of insurance, I simply cross that out), and no one has yet questioned it or refused to send me the work. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:20:57 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments - VCF files In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I'm not getting anyone's mail as attachments but from some people I always > get a little attached file called vcf and from some people little gif > files. I never use them that I know of, and can't figure out what > they are. The .VCF file is a Visiting Card file which contains information about you - the idea is that someone can open the file, read about your details and add you to their Address Book if they wish. The file can contain all the details found in an Address Book entry, including notes, birthdays, children's names, etc, etc - in fact, you can choose any address from your Contacts list or Address Book (not just your own) and forward it to someone as a .VCF file. The idea is to avoid having to write all those messages that say "So-and-so's address is..." - you just pass on their VCard from your own Address Book. Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:42:39 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments - UUENCODE In-Reply-To: <005301bf198c$811c61e0$f0c5fea9@net.crosslink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ardith Ayotte wrote: > Ok, everyone. I am now sending in Plain Text but wondering what > this means: Uuencode. It is an option available in Outlook > Express under Tools/Options/Send/Plain Text. It is not explained > in my Help menu, either! This is a piece of Internet history. Back in the bad old days about eight years ago, email and newsgroup messages could only contain plain text (the stuff you type in at your keyboard). In order to transmit pictures of Anna Nicole Smith and other deeply meaningful non-text files, the sender had to convert them into a sequence of text characters using an UUENCODE program, and embed them in their letters, which thus became very long and full of gibberish. The recipient then had to unencode them using the same program in reverse at the other end. The first improvement was that UUENCODE was built in to the mail system, as described above; the second was that it was replaced by MIME, a more powerful system which works in the background without the need for user intervention (mostly). Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 01:20:57 -0700 Reply-To: elinorl@mcn.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Proofreading rates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've recently received $2.50 per page for proofreading material like the public policy book you mentioned. Elinor Lindheimer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 06:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Proofreading rates In-Reply-To: <1999101903720319169@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: >Is there a newsgroup of proofreaders (parallel to INDEX-L) that >might have published going rates? Thanks, everyone. > >Peter Rooney >magnetix@ix.netcom.com As far as I know, there is no list for proofreaders as there is for indexers. I actually threatened to start one a few years ago, but got busy and never followed through on it. My proofreading rates have always been an hourly rate, from $15.00 to $20 per hour, depending on the industry and the topic involved. Willa (looking forwrd to playing at a local contra dance tonite....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:36:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan_Weiss@TAX.ORG Subject: Freelance indexer needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I received the memo below about a job for a freelance indexer with Harcourt. I am not available to take the job. If you are interested in the position, please communicate directly with Mr. George Gold at Harcourt. Do not send any inquiries to me or to Index -L. Mr. Gold can be reached at ggold@harcourt.com or by phone (703-837-9326). Memo from Mr. Gold: I am currently developing a line of books for Harcourt Professional Publishing. The primary target market is Year 1-3 associates at mid- large-size law firms, in addition to young attorneys in the office of corporate counsel, and with non-profits or government. For each title (primarily substantive law, e.g., bankruptcy, antitrust, commercial real estate, as well as skills training titles) , we pair a prominent law school professor (who writes the underlying text) with a well-known practitioner (whocontributed practice commentaries, including forms, checklists, cautions, etc.). You may be aware that a Harcourt is the BarBri bar review course, and we are following the youngsters along as they navigate the partnership track. A number of titles are already in the pipeline, with others on the drawing board. Manuscript will start flowing in toward the end of this year. Sue Weiss ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Cross-reference & multiple indexes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm indexing (or overindexing!) a 3 vol. Encyclopedia of American Third Parties. There are three indexes... subject, biography, and geographical. I'm finding that I'm doing a lot of cross-referencing between them. For example: Bio index: Hamilton, Alexander ambition & goals of 3:405 biography of 3:645 Federalist Papers 2:45 see also Anti-Federalism (Subject Index); Federalist Party (Subject Index) Subject index: Anti-Federalism emergence of 1:304-305 legacy of 1:306-308 ratification of Constitution and 1:300-302 see also Federalist Party; Hamilton, Alexander (Bio Index); Madison, James (Bio Index) The problem is, sometimes there is *a lot* of see also's. Especially under the Socialist Party. Has anyone come across this before? Suggestions? I suppose I could some how not use so many cross-references, but I think they are appropriate because a person looking under Anti-Federalism will see the related names of the Anti-Federalist people (e.g., bio index). Thanks in advance. --Ilana Kingsley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:26:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: Cross-reference & multiple indexes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Is your editor insistent that there be separate indexes? I worked for more than 11 years as a reference librarian at a community college before I began freelance indexing. There was little more confusing to students (and faculty) than to be moving through multiple indexes. In reality it seems all of your topics are subjects -- just people as subject, places as subject. I know this doesn't reduce the number of cross-references but it does reduce the space required and allows the user to work with one alphabetic listing. Nancy Guenther At 10:53 AM 10/19/1999 -0400, you wrote: >I'm indexing (or overindexing!) a 3 vol. Encyclopedia of American Third >Parties. There are three indexes... subject, biography, and geographical. >I'm finding that I'm doing a lot of cross-referencing between them. For >example: [snip] >The problem is, sometimes there is *a lot* of see also's. Especially >under the Socialist Party. > >Has anyone come across this before? Suggestions? I suppose I could some >how not use so many cross-references, but I think they are appropriate >because a person looking under Anti-Federalism will see the related names >of the Anti-Federalist people (e.g., bio index). > >Thanks in advance. > >--Ilana Kingsley ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:01:31 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Cross-reference & multiple indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Ilana, You have an interesting problem here. I can certainly see why you would want to do cross references. However, after speaking the editor about this, my inclination would be to not do cross references between the individual indexes. I often do multiple indexes (names and subjects; or scriptures and subjects) and there are often related entries from both indexes. However, my personal feeling is that cross referencing between indexes is just too messy. Perhaps you could solve this by using the name information in the sub entries of the related subject entry? This would then lead the reader who is seeking more information over to the individual in the bio index. In this particular case it seems that your indexes are really very tied together. Are you absolutely bound (by the editor) to having to produce these three indexes? Is there no way that you could do just a name (bio) and combined subject index? It would interesting for me to hear how others handle this problem. It's a continuing issue for multiple indexes. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: Ilana Kingsley To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 3:06 PM Subject: Cross-reference & multiple indexes >I'm indexing (or overindexing!) a 3 vol. Encyclopedia of American Third >Parties. There are three indexes... subject, biography, and geographical. >I'm finding that I'm doing a lot of cross-referencing between them. For >example: > >Bio index: >Hamilton, Alexander > ambition & goals of 3:405 > biography of 3:645 > Federalist Papers 2:45 > see also Anti-Federalism (Subject Index); Federalist Party (Subject >Index) > > >Subject index: >Anti-Federalism > emergence of 1:304-305 > legacy of 1:306-308 > ratification of Constitution and 1:300-302 > see also Federalist Party; Hamilton, Alexander (Bio Index); Madison, >James (Bio Index) > > >The problem is, sometimes there is *a lot* of see also's. Especially >under the Socialist Party. > >Has anyone come across this before? Suggestions? I suppose I could some >how not use so many cross-references, but I think they are appropriate >because a person looking under Anti-Federalism will see the related names >of the Anti-Federalist people (e.g., bio index). > >Thanks in advance. > >--Ilana Kingsley > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:59:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cross-reference, multiple indexes, and Solomon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ilana, et al - You raise a very interesting question (x-referencing between author-subject-geography indexes). My first (and, on reflection, probably incorrect) reaction was to ask why you need to x-ref in the manner shown in your examples at all. The three indexes (subject, biography, geographical) are entirely separate, freestanding, individual entities. In a sense, it would seem as though the original text had been printed in three separate volumes, only one of which had all the indexes. Upon more sober reflection, I believe that this interpretation is incorrect. My second trip around this barn suggests that x-refs are necessary, and that one must not be misled by the caprice of formatting - - that is, by the fact that what is basically one index has been partitioned into three. The problem, of course, is that a reader who doesn't know, for example, about Hamilton's connection with the Federalist Papers will not think to look under that main heading in the subject index. So the problem of mining (new trendy catch word) all three indexes for all entries about Hamilton is not resolved without the x-refs. In that sense, the fact that the indexes are separate is irrelevant. Cross-referencing between them seems unavoidable, as it would be in any single index. The real problem appears to me to be the visual clutter that results from qualifying each x-ref to another index. The need to qualify each x-ref (when it is to another index) will seriously clutter the entries, because it is likely that almost everything will somehow be connected to everything else. My off-the-cuff response, then, is that your problem is not the need for x-refs, but is the visual complexity that will result from qualifying these x-refs. I would suggest that the x-refs are entirely legitimate in your case, and that what is needed is a simple typographic convention that tells the reader in which other index(es) to look. For example, perhaps an italic capital "G" for "Geography index", and a capital italic "S" for "Subject index", etc., would suffice, and not be so obtrusive. The identifying letters could, or could not, be contained within parenthesis. So, in the Biography index, for example, you might have: Hamilton, Alexander ---sub 1 ---sub 2 ---sub 3 See also Federalist Papers (S) Not too bad that way, and you could program a few function keys to insert the qualifiers in a single keystroke. Obviously, a single index would be better, and it is not clear why your editor(s) want three chunks instead of one integrated index. But it is not to fathom the mysteries of the Editorial Mind! Solomon (King Solomon, not Solomon Grundy) once said that there were four things that he could not understand: The way of a ship upon the sea, the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, and the way of a man with a maid. He then added, "You know, I never could figure out the Editorial Mind, either!" Best wishes, Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:29:15 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Definition of "galley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I need to know the definition of the word "galley" as used in the publishing industry. I am reading a book that uses the term in connection with proofreading - and is very confusing! It doesn't seem to mean exactly what I thought, at least in this context. Maybe the term is not as specific as I believed. Thanks, Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:44:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Definition of "galley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, When I was an in-house editor, galleys were the strips of text that had been set. It was just paragraph after paragraph, no illustrations or tables set in. This way they could be proofread, checked, changed, etc., without as much cost, and then they could be cut up and made into dummy pages. Of course, with computer publishing, this is needed less and less. And I left that world around 8 years ago. Good luck, Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:49:42 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Cross-reference, multiple indexes, and Solomon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I have to agree with several of Bob's points. There really does seem to be a crying need for cross references between the indexes. However, I still think that it's just way too messy and confusing to do so. The obvious solution is to have only one index. The typical name index is usually for author names. In your case the names seem not to be cited authors but individuals who are intimately tied to the subject entries. I would contact the editor, explain the problem, and request using only one index for this text. I've seen indexes which contain elaborate "explanations" and, while they may be unavoidable at times, I think that keeping it simple is usually the best. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Cross-reference, multiple indexes, and Solomon >Ilana, et al - > >You raise a very interesting question (x-referencing between >author-subject-geography indexes). > >My first (and, on reflection, probably incorrect) reaction was to ask why >you need to x-ref in the manner shown in your examples at all. The three >indexes (subject, biography, geographical) are entirely separate, >freestanding, individual entities. In a sense, it would seem as though the >original text had been printed in three separate volumes, only one of which >had all the indexes. Upon more sober reflection, I believe that this >interpretation is incorrect. > >My second trip around this barn suggests that x-refs are necessary, and that >one must not be misled by the caprice of formatting - - that is, by the fact >that what is basically one index has been partitioned into three. > >The problem, of course, is that a reader who doesn't know, for example, about >Hamilton's connection with the Federalist Papers will not think to look under >that main heading in the subject index. So the problem of mining (new trendy >catch word) all three indexes for all entries about Hamilton is not resolved >without the x-refs. In that sense, the fact that the indexes are separate is >irrelevant. > >Cross-referencing between them seems unavoidable, as it would be in any >single index. The real problem appears to me to be the visual clutter that >results from qualifying each x-ref to another index. The need to qualify >each x-ref (when it is to another index) will seriously clutter the entries, >because it is likely that almost everything will somehow be connected to >everything else. > >My off-the-cuff response, then, is that your problem is not the need for >x-refs, but is the visual complexity that will result from qualifying these >x-refs. I would suggest that the x-refs are entirely legitimate in your >case, and that what is needed is a simple typographic convention that tells >the reader in which other index(es) to look. > >For example, perhaps an italic capital "G" for "Geography index", and a >capital italic "S" for "Subject index", etc., would suffice, and not be so >obtrusive. The identifying letters could, or could not, be contained within >parenthesis. > >So, in the Biography index, for example, you might have: > >Hamilton, Alexander >---sub 1 >---sub 2 >---sub 3 >See also Federalist Papers (S) > >Not too bad that way, and you could program a few function keys to insert the >qualifiers in a single keystroke. > >Obviously, a single index would be better, and it is not clear why your >editor(s) want three chunks instead of one integrated index. But it is not >to fathom the mysteries of the Editorial Mind! > >Solomon (King Solomon, not Solomon Grundy) once said that there were four >things that he could not understand: The way of a ship upon the sea, the >way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, and the way of a >man with a maid. He then added, "You know, I never could figure out the >Editorial Mind, either!" > >Best wishes, > >Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:39:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jacqueline Lyn Subject: automated vs. manual indexing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello I was hoping that I could get some feedback into the advantages/disadvantages of manual versus automated indexing. I supervise the manual indexing for an online information database. Management has expressed interest in exploring automated indexing as an alternative to manual indexing. Any feedback would be much appreciated Jacqueline Lyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:22:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: new mail address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Just wanted to let you know that I have a new mail address: macallen@mindspring.com I'll keep the tiac address till the end of the month, but will be on mindspring completely by November 1. Willa (who now has to do new business cards....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:12:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline, To my mind, the main reason not to use automated indexing is that anything -- term of concept -- not specifically articulated will not be indexed. This is what the human mind does that a computer program will not do. It speaks to the concept of "aboutness". A paragraph or discussion can be "about" a topic without specifically using those words. For example, if there is a discussion of passwords, you are speaking about security issues. But that word may not appear in that paragraph. Similarly for encryption. It takes a mind to draw that conclusion. Also, resolving similar spellings into one entry, and/or resolving singular and plural forms of the word may not take place with automated indexing. These, in short, are my issues with automated indexing. They may provide a rough type of "index" -- and note that I used quotes there. To me it is little more than a concordance. It certainly will not produce a refined index. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:18:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Definition of "galley" In-Reply-To: <001801bf1a57$8c0555a0$74c9f7a5@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition: "Galley proof is proof of typeset text before it is made into pages. It is usually in the form of long columns and is used by the proofreader and author for proofreading. It may also be cut into sections for making dummy pages." I have occasionally had to index from paged galleys, i.e., galleys where the editor as marked off and numbered the pages. It's a little scary because of the danger of later changes, but with Cindex's ability to alter page references it can be handled. I have seen general rules that say one galley page equals three final pages - but this can vary. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com I need to know the definition of the word "galley" as used in the publishing industry. I am reading a book that uses the term in connection with proofreading - and is very confusing! It doesn't seem to mean exactly what I thought, at least in this context. Maybe the term is not as specific as I believed. Thanks, Ann ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy A. Guenther" Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Your examples will vary depending on the discipline. However, I believe the overriding issue is the extent to which language is not precise. We can have a single term have multiple meanings. In the computer text I am currently indexing, the word "client" can mean the person for whom the business provides a service; the computer connected to the server in a network; or the software running on a network. For example Web browsers are clients on the Internet. On a broad level consider how terms develop varied meanings -- for example "key" on pianos, for computers, to unlock doors, to unlock puzzles, for security, or as a geographic feature, as in Key West. At the same time we deal with an author's use of multiple terms to indicate one concept. Once again in the computer field -- application, software, program are often used interchangeably. Without a human being analyzing context, it seems that automation falls far short in bringing together relevant links and avoiding the unrelated. Nancy Guenther At 01:39 PM 10/19/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Hello > >I was hoping that I could get some feedback into the >advantages/disadvantages of manual versus automated indexing. I supervise >the manual indexing for an online information database. Management has >expressed interest in exploring automated indexing as an alternative to >manual indexing. > >Any feedback would be much appreciated > >Jacqueline Lyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:03:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Indexer needed for short presentations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Professional indexers: The Suncoast Chapter of the STC (Society for Technical Communication) is looking for someone to make a presentation on the evening of Thursday, November 4, 1999. The location is in Tampa, Florida. Bill Graham writes to ask if a professional indexer would be willing to make a thirty to forty minute presentation that evening. (I'm sending this out because Bill's email is down right now...Please don't reply to me, reply to Bill G - contact info is below.) They have one other lead right now, but no one has committed to make a presentation that evening. They would like to hear how indexing relates to technical information in the form of manuals or online help. Some topics that may be of interest are: indexing software demonstrations, the importance of an index to a technical document, or even basic indexing principles related to a technical theme. If you will be in Tampa on November 4, and would like to come and visit us, contact Bill Graham, the Chapter's Treasurer. home email: wggraham@mindspring.com (this address IS working) work email: bill.graham@gsbsc.gensig.com home telephone: 941-752-0380 work telephone: 941-739-4218 Thanks for any help you can give the chapter on this, and have a nice day. Please don't reply to me (jan wright) but reply to Bill!!! Thanks. =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:47:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Indexer needed for short presentations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan: Do you have any idea if someone in Florida responded to this? I don't want to bug you, but one of the things I'd like Strategic Planning to do is to make sure that requests like this get covered by someone in a local chapter. Any info you have would be helpful. Diana Witt "Jan C. Wright" wrote: > Professional indexers: > > The Suncoast Chapter of the STC (Society for Technical Communication) is > looking for someone to make a presentation on the evening of Thursday, > November 4, 1999. The location is in Tampa, Florida. Bill Graham writes to > ask if a professional indexer would be willing to make a thirty to forty > minute presentation that evening. (I'm sending this out because Bill's > email is down right now...Please don't reply to me, reply to Bill G - > contact info is below.) > > They have one other lead right now, but no one has committed to make a > presentation that evening. They would like to hear how indexing relates to > technical information in the form of manuals or online help. Some topics > that may be of interest are: indexing software demonstrations, the > importance of an index to a technical document, or even basic indexing > principles related to a technical theme. > > If you will be in Tampa on November 4, and would like to come and visit us, > contact Bill Graham, the Chapter's Treasurer. > > home email: wggraham@mindspring.com (this address IS working) > work email: bill.graham@gsbsc.gensig.com > home telephone: 941-752-0380 > work telephone: 941-739-4218 > > Thanks for any help you can give the chapter on this, and have a nice day. > > Please don't reply to me (jan wright) but reply to Bill!!! Thanks. > > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= > Wright Information Indexing Services > http://www.wrightinformation.com > Jancw@wrightinformation.com > =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing One other aspect not really mentioned so far is the ability of the indexer to distinguish between what is and is not relevant. I will steal shamelessly from Kevin Broccoli's excellent presentation at the ASI conference and refer you to an interesting article on the User Interface Engineering website called "Why Search Engines Stink." Admittedly, this article refers to search engines and not automated indexing programs, but there is a tremendous overlap between the two technologies. http://world.std.com/~uieweb/searchar.htm Neither search engines nor automated indexing programs can determine what is and is not a relevant reference-- they can only sort the terms that appear in a document according to certain preprogrammed patterns. This is the major disadvantage of any automated program. The advantage of automated programs is that they are initially cheap-- you don't have to pay an indexer, you only have to purchase the software. The issue generally comes down to two major considerations: 1) How standardized is the language in the documents you are trying to index? and 2) How concerned is your company with quality? Others have already addressed the issue of standardization of language and how the same word can have multiple meanings or the same concept can be described with a variety of terms, so I won't belabor the point. As for the second question, this may not be a question that you or even your boss can answer. Every company SAYS, when initially faced with this question, that they are very concerned about quality, but quality is hard to quantify, and the real question becomes How much quality is your company willing to pay for? Good business people with well-developed long-term strategies know that quality is the only thing that will keep a business going in the long run, but these are the days of instant gratification and fast-paced, profit-motivated corporate visions, and long-term strategies generally don't extend beyond the next quarterly stockholder's meeting. Upper-level management and finance/accounting people tend to be quickly and thoroughly dazzled by the prospect of short-term, big-ticket savings that technology like automated indexing can represent without any concern for what this will mean to either their customers or to the company itself 5, 10 or 20 years down the road when they have lost all of their customers and all of their market credibility because of the shoddy products produced by the disciples of the Quick Hit. And why should they: With corporate trends being what they are the people who make these decisions won't be around to either profit from or pay for the consequence of their decisions. Sorry if this sounds horribly negative, but it is based on my observations after working almost five years in the publishing industry. I don't like this trend and I think it's going to hurt the entire industry in the long run, but I also don't think that we have seen the last of it. As long as Wall Street runs amok and people can get rich by tossing quality out the window in the name of expediency and next month's stock prices, the trend will continue. -- Sharon Wright > -----Original Message----- > From: Jacqueline Lyn [SMTP:jlyn@INFOMART.CA] > Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 1:39 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: automated vs. manual indexing > > Hello > > I was hoping that I could get some feedback into the > advantages/disadvantages of manual versus automated indexing. I supervise > the manual indexing for an online information database. Management has > expressed interest in exploring automated indexing as an alternative to > manual indexing. > > Any feedback would be much appreciated > > Jacqueline Lyn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:20:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sherri Linsenbach Subject: Florida Chapter of Indexers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Florida indexers: I am currently working on establishing a Florida chapter of the American Society of Indexers. I have heard from several Florida indexers who are interested, but would be glad to hear from more. If we are able to establish a Florida chapter based upon the requirements for ASI chapters, I will be creating a Web site for the group where we can post relevant information for Florida indexers. If you are interested in becoming a part of a Florida chapter of ASI, please e-mail me, rather than posting to the list. Thank you! Sherri Linsenbach AccuWrite Professionals Indexing~Editing Services SherriL@abac.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:34:33 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Contract Wording In-Reply-To: <007a01bf19a0$47479ac0$0300000a@0rqfz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with the phrase. The editor/publisher > is buying a product just as we buy products in stores or online. Such products are usually mass-produced. A percentage of returns is budgeted for. Should we budget for rejected work? Contracts with no-pay-if-not-satisfied clauses seem to be a new phenomenon. In my opinion we should be regarded as service providers, not manufacturers. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:24:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments - UUENCODE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Jon, and all others who have let me know that the very same = email arrives in a variety of ways depending on the program the = recipient has; i.e., as an attachment (to just two recipients), in MIME = to a digest-form recipient, and normal to everyone else. At this point, I would appreciate knowing anytime my email arrives as an = attachment. I am not sending it as such.=20 Jon's explanation below is very helpful, so I forwarded it on to those = of you with internet experience and the newbies on internet as a = learning tool. Ardith 8-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jon & Glenda To: Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:42 AM Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments - UUENCODE > Ardith Ayotte wrote: >=20 > > Ok, everyone. I am now sending in Plain Text but wondering what > > this means: Uuencode. It is an option available in Outlook > > Express under Tools/Options/Send/Plain Text. It is not explained > > in my Help menu, either! >=20 > This is a piece of Internet history. Back in the bad old days about = eight > years ago, email and newsgroup messages could only contain plain text = (the > stuff you type in at your keyboard). In order to transmit pictures of = Anna > Nicole Smith and other deeply meaningful non-text files, the sender = had to > convert them into a sequence of text characters using an UUENCODE = program, > and embed them in their letters, which thus became very long and full = of > gibberish. The recipient then had to unencode them using the same = program in > reverse at the other end. The first improvement was that UUENCODE was = built > in to the mail system, as described above; the second was that it was > replaced by MIME, a more powerful system which works in the background > without the need for user intervention (mostly). >=20 > Jon. >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:55:14 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sara Schertz Subject: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm a technical writer for a small software company. We are working on the indexes for the books in our documentation set and we've run into the following problem: how do you index the main topic of the book? In our case, this is the product name. For instance, assume the product is called "WidgetTracker." The entire user's guide is therefore about "using WidgetTracker." Should the term WidgetTracker appear in the index at all? If so, how do we pare down the potentially huge list of sub-entries? Has anyone had this problem before? How do you solve it? Thanks for any advice!! Sara Schertz Senior Technical Writer Interface Software, Inc. sschertz@interfacesoftware.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 17:13:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Conley, Kathe" Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have, in good faith, tried to unsubscribe to this list. I have followed the instructions to no availl to the nth degree, etc. Help!-----Original Message----- > From: Homer Ellison [SMTP:advms@MINDSPRING.COM] > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 10:05 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > > Ardith, > > I haven't been receiving your messages as attachments, but I have an idea > as > to why some might be. I notice that you send your messages in HTML > format. > Some e-mail programs can only handle plain text and not HTML. You might > want to try configuring your software to compose messages to the list in > plain text. > > FWIW, I have Outlook Express too, but to my knowledge I've never had this > problem. It sounds like something in the way you have your software > configured--I would start with setting it for plain text. > > I hope this helps. > > Regards, > Homer > > ----- > Homer Ellison > > Advantage Media Solutions > Manuscript services > info@advmediasol.com > http://www.advmediasol.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Manjit Sahai > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 17, 1999 5:54 PM > Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > > > > Hi Ardith, > > > > I have gotten quite a few of your posts as attachments last week. > > > > MANJIT > > > > > > >From: Ann Truesdale > > >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" > > > >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > > >Subject: Re: Postings as Attachments > > >Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:01:12 -0400 > > > > > >Ardith, > > > > > >I have not been getting your posts as attachments, but... I am also > using > > >Outlook Express and I noticed a couple of days ago that when I click > > >"properties" on the messages in my outbox it says that there is 1 > > >attachment > > >on each, though I have not added any! > > > > > >Is anyone getting attachments from me? I am not really happy with > Outlook > > >Express because I'm don't feel as if I know exactly what I am sending, > for > > >the above reason and others. > > > > > >I am using Outlook Express version 5.00.2314.1300; I can't believe that > > >version number! :) > > > > > >Ann > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services > > >To: > > >Sent: Saturday, October 16, 1999 6:28 PM > > >Subject: Postings as Attachments > > > > > > > > >Dear List, > > > > > >I have just been informed that my postings come to you as attachments. > I > > >did not know this and would not choose it. > > > > > >I have seen this from some other indexers who write to the Index-L. I > > >assumed they were written in a word processing program and then sent > > >through > > >the email program. > > > > > >Does anyone know how I can change this dynamic? I have simply been > writing > > >directly in my Outlook Express New Mail or Reply To categories. > > > > > >Over, Ardith > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:11:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sara, I would try to turn any subentries under WidgetTracker that aren't simply double-postings such as "installing," "hardware requirements for," and such like entries into task-oriented main entries somewhere else. In other words, I wouldn't put the "printing" or "file storage" information there, but would put information about these concepts under task- and object-oriented entries of their own. In software manuals, I generally find it hard to live without ANY subentries under the product name, but I do try to be ruthless about creatively moving things away from there and putting only items that have no other natural home in that location. Usually, you can keep the subheads there fairly short if you edit carefully and have a lot of task-oriented entries throughout the index.(Probably most everyone but the program designers would look under a term for the task they are performing or trying to perform before looking under the proprietary name for some term that covers what they are trying to find. Such subheads are documentation oriented, not task oriented.) I might have a main entry for "hardware requirements," but I do sometimes find that the client wants some preliminary information there in the index as well. Often it is a place to collect information from the preface, intro, and appendixes under the product name. I am assuming you are reacting to the rule "Never make the main topic an entry in the index." As Fred Leise is so fond of noting, many (most!) such rules need to be broken under some circumstances. If you can justify the purpose of the subheads, then you need to use them, despite any rules you might have internalized. In the final analysis, the needs of the user are cause to override the strictest interpretation of the rules. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 02:11:39 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon Wright: Thanks for the information on search engine evaluations. I asked a questions almost a month ago that was an attempt at getting this type of information. Additionally, I've been negotiating with a friend's company and will use the information you provide on quality. Just for the record, they're a "green" company that recently experienced some vandalism. I feel its distracting them, probably by intent of the vandals, but there are a lot of reasons companies make a short term decision to ignore quality, despite its obvious advantages in both the short and long terms. Max Dalrymple -----Original Message----- From: Wright, Sharon F. To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 2:38 PM Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing >One other aspect not really mentioned so far is the ability of the indexer >to distinguish between what is and is not relevant. I will steal >shamelessly from Kevin Broccoli's excellent presentation at the ASI >conference and refer you to an interesting article on the User Interface >Engineering website called "Why Search Engines Stink." Admittedly, this >article refers to search engines and not automated indexing programs, but >there is a tremendous overlap between the two technologies. > >http://world.std.com/~uieweb/searchar.htm > >Neither search engines nor automated indexing programs can determine what is >and is not a relevant reference-- they can only sort the terms that appear >in a document according to certain preprogrammed patterns. This is the >major disadvantage of any automated program. The advantage of automated >programs is that they are initially cheap-- you don't have to pay an >indexer, you only have to purchase the software. The issue generally comes >down to two major considerations: > >1) How standardized is the language in the documents you are trying to >index? and >2) How concerned is your company with quality? > >Others have already addressed the issue of standardization of language and >how the same word can have multiple meanings or the same concept can be >described with a variety of terms, so I won't belabor the point. > >As for the second question, this may not be a question that you or even your >boss can answer. Every company SAYS, when initially faced with this >question, that they are very concerned about quality, but quality is hard to >quantify, and the real question becomes How much quality is your company >willing to pay for? Good business people with well-developed long-term >strategies know that quality is the only thing that will keep a business >going in the long run, but these are the days of instant gratification and >fast-paced, profit-motivated corporate visions, and long-term strategies >generally don't extend beyond the next quarterly stockholder's meeting. >Upper-level management and finance/accounting people tend to be quickly and >thoroughly dazzled by the prospect of short-term, big-ticket savings that >technology like automated indexing can represent without any concern for >what this will mean to either their customers or to the company itself 5, 10 >or 20 years down the road when they have lost all of their customers and all >of their market credibility because of the shoddy products produced by the >disciples of the Quick Hit. And why should they: With corporate trends >being what they are the people who make these decisions won't be around to >either profit from or pay for the consequence of their decisions. > >Sorry if this sounds horribly negative, but it is based on my observations >after working almost five years in the publishing industry. I don't like >this trend and I think it's going to hurt the entire industry in the long >run, but I also don't think that we have seen the last of it. As long as >Wall Street runs amok and people can get rich by tossing quality out the >window in the name of expediency and next month's stock prices, the trend >will continue. > >-- Sharon Wright > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jacqueline Lyn [SMTP:jlyn@INFOMART.CA] >> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 1999 1:39 PM >> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >> Subject: automated vs. manual indexing >> >> Hello >> >> I was hoping that I could get some feedback into the >> advantages/disadvantages of manual versus automated indexing. I supervise >> the manual indexing for an online information database. Management has >> expressed interest in exploring automated indexing as an alternative to >> manual indexing. >> >> Any feedback would be much appreciated >> >> Jacqueline Lyn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 05:52:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings In-Reply-To: <000001bf1881$beda7960$9ccf23cb@pentium> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:26 PM 10/17/99 +1000, Glenda wrote: > >Absolutely, definitely and without question I think the important word >should go first. It is usually possible to do this quite easily; if not then >a decision has to be made depending on the importance of the other words in >the subheading. > I too make it a point to put the key words in subheadings first and I agree that it usually is possible to do this easily, but sometimes it's a struggle that can eat up precious time. In this regard, I was struck by Michael Wyatt's comment: >As a user I prefer B. But as an indexer I would probably follow A, because >it requires less thought and therefore time, and the index is invariably >needed the day before yesterday. If I agonized over the position of every >subheading I'd never meet a deadline. Not taking the trouble to put the key word first is something I'm usually not willing to do but this comment, exaggerated though it may be, does make me stop and think about practical realities. I wonder whether it might be better sometimes to refuse to agonize by entering the best wording I can come up with quickly and flag it for consideration later on, time permitting, if I'm not very pleased with it. I hardly ever do this because I really want to get the matter settled before I move on! Michael Wyatt goes on to clarify his actual practice: >I do not believe that a typical user >encountering a list of subheadings is going to home in on . . . >what they're looking for, and give up if it's not there, but rather >scan down all of them. For that reason it is certainly in principle more >helpful to ensure that a meaningful word is the first word of the >subheading. So I would take a lot of care if there were 24 or 36 subheads as >you say there are in this case, but with the more usual eight or fewer I >wouldn't use precious time worrying about it. I agree, though I probably draw the line at closer to four subheadings than eight. BTW Michael, regarding your reference to "the more usual eight or fewer" subheadings under a main heading, is this a number you've identified from observing your own indexing practice or have you learned it from some other source? Glenda continues: >If I use 'and', which is rarely, I put it at the end. Someone at an AusSI >meeting pointed out that there can be a different meaning with 'and' at the >front or back, eg, > >climate change > and butterflies > butterflies and > >where we decided that one was the effect of butterflies on climate change >and the other the effect on butterflies of climate change. We also decided, >however, that both of these could be worded better (eg, butterflies' effect >on). In the index I have just finished I decided that the distinction >between 'and' at the front and back was too subtle, and, again, there were >nearly always better ways to word things. > I too use "and" to point out a relationship between the subjects of a heading and a subheading without specifying what the relationship is, for several different reasons: because pointing out the relationship itself is more important than specifying what it is, because the type of relationship is not specified clearly in the text, because there's not enough space in the index to specify what such relationships are, or because the discussion in the text specifies more than one type of relationship. I put "and" at the beginning or at the end of subheadings in whatever way presents the logical order, or if that's not applicable, the natural language order between main heading and subheading, and in so doing I avoid following any set order that may or may not be logical or that abandons natural language order more often than seems necessary. In most cases this means putting "and" at the beginning of subheadings; but in some cases it means putting "and" at the end of subheadings, as in the case above in which "climate change: butterflies and" suggests "the effect of butterflies on climate change" -- a logical relationship of cause and effect between the subject of the subheading and the subject of the main heading. As Glenda and others have said, this may seem like too subtle a distinction between "and" at the front and "and" at the back, but I don't see it this way except, perhaps, as something that might trouble someone like an indexer looking at index structure. For anyone who's looking something up in an index and knows nothing about indexing conventions of putting "and" either first or last, it seems to me that this distinction doesn't even arise in reading headings with "and" subheadings that are written clearly in logical and natural language order. When I wrote about this topic once before on Index-l saying that I like to use "and" subheadings to index relationships of cause and effect Fred Leise wrote back to say that when we want to index such relationships we should do so explicitly, and now Glenda and the AusSI members with whom she met are saying much the same in saying that there are better ways of wording subheadings when indexing relationships of cause and effect. I too appreciate this view, but in practice when it comes to writing "climate change: butterflies as affected by" instead of "climate change: and butterflies", or the rather awkward "climate change: butterflies' effect on" instead of "climate change: butterflies and" I often prefer the simpler, more inclusive albeit implicit phrase; and if "and" does not seem explicit enough in such cases then I'd say that these may be good examples of cases in which pointing out the relationship itself is more important than specifying exactly what it is. All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:04:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Brackney asked: > > BTW Michael, regarding your reference to "the more usual eight or > fewer" subheadings under a main heading, is this a number you've identified > from observing your own indexing practice or have you learned it from some > other source? > It came from off the top of my head. The usual scientific research method of thinking of a number, doubling it, and taking away the number I first thought of. MW ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 08:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I find that that I usually have to include some reference to the subject of a software manual. Mainly though I try to limit these entries to information about the background and history of the product, release numbers, changes or improvements in the current release etc. Usually this info is right at the beginning of the book, but sometimes not. Thus: WidgetTracker history new features versions, differences among Other entries related to actually using WidgetTracker would be indexed under the topics themselves; e.g., installing scanning devices WidgetTracker record keeping tracking green Widgets red Widgets WidgetTracker personnel Good luck. Diane Brenner http://www.dianebrenner.com Sara Schertz wrote: > I'm a technical writer for a small software company. We are working on the > indexes for the books in our documentation set and we've run into the > following problem: how do you index the main topic of the book? In our case, > this is the product name. > > For instance, assume the product is called "WidgetTracker." The entire > user's guide is therefore about "using WidgetTracker." Should the term > WidgetTracker appear in the index at all? If so, how do we pare down the > potentially huge list of sub-entries? > > Has anyone had this problem before? How do you solve it? > > Thanks for any advice!! > > Sara Schertz > Senior Technical Writer > Interface Software, Inc. > sschertz@interfacesoftware.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 09:42:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kari J. Kells" Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 18 Oct 1999 to 19 Oct 1999 (#1999-81) In-Reply-To: <199910200406.AAA06318@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter & others - from time to time as questions arise on this list that professionals in other fields might better answer, you might try searching for discussion lists or newsgroups by going to Tile.Net . You can search through titles and descriptions of such groups by keyword. I've been doing Tile.Net searches for years & have found it to be the most complete such search engine. You can always also try your general search engines - just use keywords for the profession or topic and the terms "discussion list" or "newsgroup". Hope that helps. Happy proofreading! -Kari ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Kari Kells I n d e x W e s t indexwest@mindspring.com http://www.mindspring.com/~indexwest/ P.O. Box 2748 Vashon Island, WA 98070 206-567-5696 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ At 12:00 AM 10/20/99 -0400, you wrote: >There are 29 messages totalling 1262 lines in this issue. >Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 23:36:18 -0500 >From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM >Subject: Proofreading rates > >I've been asked to make a single estimate for a combined job of proofreading >AND indexing. Needless to say, I'll do the two jobs on two sets of >pages. I know how to estimate the indexing component; but it's been >years (decades) since I've done straight proofreading, and I'm out of >touch with the rates. An hourly rate would be useless for the purpose >of this blind estimate. (Yes I know it would be foolish to make a >blind *BID*, but this will only be an estimate for the purpose of moving >the project forward.) > >I'd like to know a per-page going rate for proofreading against copy. >The pages are straight text, in the public policy field, >approx. 400 words per page. > >Is there a newsgroup of proofreaders (parallel to INDEX-L) that >might have published going rates? Thanks, everyone. > >Peter Rooney >magnetix@ix.netcom.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:15:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KMArrigoni@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sarah wrote: >For instance, assume the product is called "WidgetTracker." The entire >user's guide is therefore about "using WidgetTracker." Should the term >WidgetTracker appear in the index at all? If so, how do we pare down the >potentially huge list of sub-entries? Hi Sarah, I usually add the name of the product as an index entry, but with very limited subentries that refer specifically to the main entry. For example: WidgetTracker installing optimizing performance of system requirements for troubleshooting web site for I think it's helpful for the readers to have this sort of information. Karin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:15:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KMArrigoni@AOL.COM Subject: Charging for add-on embedded indexing projects--thanks! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jan and Peg, Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences/advice. I really appreciate it. I had a feeling that hourly was the way to go. Now I just have to convince the client! Thanks again, Karin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:22:25 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sara: I only index the main title name if some subheading is relevant. For instance, if I am indexing Microsoft's 2000 Server and the entire book is about the Server, I might index: Microsoft 2000 Server features, XXX-XXX Again, the subheading has to be relevant and important. Hope this helps. Rob Robert A. , President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:36:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KMArrigoni@AOL.COM Subject: FrameMaker and power outages--and a question on UPS systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everyone, I thought I would share this in case it happens to anyone else. I was working on a rush indexing project last week and all of a sudden the power went out while I was in the midst of adding embedded entries in Frame. Well, when the power came back on and I got into Frame again, I noticed that my fonts started looking weird (jagged and "melty" looking)--not all the time, but enough to be annoying. I tried several things to no avail, and finally asked a Frame expert I know what to do. She recommended reinstalling the program--which I did--and it worked fine after that. Soooo...I think I'm finally motivated to buy myself a UPS system. If I would have had one at that time, I could have quit the program normally and it wouldn't have gotten corrupted--which cost me several valuable hours to figure out how to fix. Can anyone recommend a UPS system that can be used for both Power Mac and PC computers? How many outlets are best to get, and what do you put on them? For example, I've seen UPS systems with six outlets and I was wondering if I could put my Mac, PC, printer, modem, zip drive, and I don't know what else on it. I thought it would be a good idea to be able to print out an index, put the index on a diskette or zip cartridge, or quickly send an e-mail message in the short amount of extra time the UPS system gives you. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Karin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:10:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit HI, Someone, I think its Do Mi, has a good lecture on how to avoid indexing the "metatopic" of the book. If I remember rightly, if you find that a large number of your entries fit under one heading, you need to take another look. People already know where to find the Metatopic because they chose to read the book. Most of those subheadings should be examined to see if they are really headings. On the other hand, I often, at the risk of re-doing the table of contents, put some major headings under the metatopic. You have to be really careful with this. Authors tend to think that once you start, whatever you do will be too short. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 11:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: FrameMaker and power outages--and a question on UPS systems In-Reply-To: <0.4e199d42.253f3b7f@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" KMArrigoni@AOL.COM wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I thought I would share this in case it happens to anyone else. I was >working on a rush indexing project last week and all of a sudden the >power went out while I was in the midst of adding embedded entries in >Frame. Well, when the power came back on and I got into Frame again, I >noticed that my fonts started looking weird (jagged and "melty" >looking)--not all the time, but enough to be annoying. I tried several >things to no avail, and finally asked a Frame expert I know what to do. >She recommended reinstalling the program--which I did--and it worked fine >after that. > >Soooo...I think I'm finally motivated to buy myself a UPS system. If I >would have had one at that time, I could have quit the program normally >and it wouldn't have gotten corrupted--which cost me several valuable >hours to figure out how to fix. > >Can anyone recommend a UPS system that can be used for both Power Mac and >PC computers? How many outlets are best to get, and what do you put on >them? For example, I've seen UPS systems with six outlets and I was >wondering if I could put my Mac, PC, printer, modem, zip drive, and I >don't know what else on it. I thought it would be a good idea to be able >to print out an index, put the index on a diskette or zip cartridge, or >quickly send an e-mail message in the short amount of extra time the UPS >system gives you. > >Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > >Karin Hi Karin, I consider a UPS essential if you work on deadlines at all, and they cost less than a good file backup device, so I hope your tale convinces more people to get one. Concerning PC and Mac compatibility, the only issue is the software to detect a power failure and shut down the computer when you are not sitting there; check into this with the manufacturer. I have been very happy with an APC unit, but others are good, too. The power backup feature is, of course, totally platform-independent. Whatever you do, do NOT put a *laser* printer on a UPS. The laser printer has a heating element in it to set the toner on the page, and it draws a large amount of current when warming up to print. You can cause your UPS battery to die an early death, and it can damage the other equipment attached to the UPS due to voltage fluctuations coming out of the UPS with the sudden current draw. There are other guidelines about plugging surge-protected power strips into them, and vice versa, but these are less critical and are documented with the equipment. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: FrameMaker and power outages--and a question on UPS systems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karin, I just bought a new UPS last month from Office Depot. They had units starting at about $100. I went with one for $150 because it has a few extra features. One that was a *must* for me is surge protection for a telephone line to protect my modem. The UPS that I got has two outlets with power back-up, plus a third one that is surge protected only. I have my computer tower and the monitor on the battery outlets since that is all I need to keep running to shut down the system. My modem and scanner are on the surge protected only plug. Included in the package was a good deal on Power Chute software which would automatically shut down the computer in the event of power outages. I didn't order that because I don't leave my computer on overnight or when I am not at home. The documentation had warnings about attaching laser printers and power strips along the lines of what Larry has already posted. Happy shopping! Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 11:36 AM Subject: FrameMaker and power outages--and a question on UPS systems > Hi everyone, > > I thought I would share this in case it happens to anyone else. I was > working on a rush indexing project last week and all of a sudden the > power went out while I was in the midst of adding embedded entries in > Frame. Well, when the power came back on and I got into Frame again, I > noticed that my fonts started looking weird (jagged and "melty" > looking)--not all the time, but enough to be annoying. I tried several > things to no avail, and finally asked a Frame expert I know what to do. > She recommended reinstalling the program--which I did--and it worked fine > after that. > > Soooo...I think I'm finally motivated to buy myself a UPS system. If I > would have had one at that time, I could have quit the program normally > and it wouldn't have gotten corrupted--which cost me several valuable > hours to figure out how to fix. > > Can anyone recommend a UPS system that can be used for both Power Mac and > PC computers? How many outlets are best to get, and what do you put on > them? For example, I've seen UPS systems with six outlets and I was > wondering if I could put my Mac, PC, printer, modem, zip drive, and I > don't know what else on it. I thought it would be a good idea to be able > to print out an index, put the index on a diskette or zip cartridge, or > quickly send an e-mail message in the short amount of extra time the UPS > system gives you. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Karin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 17:09:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing Comments: To: Jacqueline Lyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't read all the replies to this question very carefully, because for some reason the replies appeared in my email box before the original query. I work for several databases indexing medical and scientific journal articles, so it is from this perspective I'll answer. I sometimes obsess about being made obsolete by full-text search engines that will eliminate the need for manual indexing of scientific and medical literature (mostly at 3 a.m. when I can't sleep). In manual indexing, an intelligent being (one hopes) is analyzing the article for its aboutness. I try to look at the article and figure out who would want to see this article, what is important in the article and what terms that occur in the thesaurus a searcher would use to access the article. Automatic indexing would somehow match the words in the article to the thesaurus, and if a word occurred frequently enough, that word would be considered a suitable index entry point or keyword for retrieval. A big problem would be that just because a term "occurs" in an article, it doesn't necessarily follow that the article is *about* that term. I remember hearing an anecdote (during an indexing discussion about search engines on the Web) about a fellow who wanted to locate information on a third world country during the 40s. His search engine combed the Web and dutifully returned a picture of the *third* baseman in the *world* series during a game in the *40s*. Close, but no cigar. So, a searcher in your database could select terms that describe the concepts being sought, and get hits on absurd references containing similar words, but not the concept. An article about traffic accidents could be indexed under cars, trucks or vehicles. But if none of those terms are in the article, or a variant that isn't mapped to a thesaurus term appears in the article, or one of the thesaurus terms appears too few times to trigger inclusion as a keyword, then searchers trying to access articles may not hit this article, depending on how they word their search query. I could think of more examples where the automatic bean, er, term counter would include or miss terms, or mismatch the nuance (does the author mean atlas as in vertebrae or as in maps). If secondary publishers go with automatic indexing to save money, their customers will make them realize they will still need to have a human look over the automatic indexing to clean it up and make it relevant to the article topic, add in concepts implied in the article but not discussed, and cross-refer topics. Glenda Browne has a wonderful article on automatic indexing at http://www.aussi.org/resources/conferencepapers/browneg.htm Another article on the Aussi Indexing Society site is a book review of _Computer Support to Indexing_ http://www.aussi.org/anl/9902mar/computer_support_to_indexing_.htm Shelley Greenhouse database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 18:08:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How do you index the main topic of the book? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon wrote: << Someone, I think its Do Mi, has a good lecture on how to avoid indexing the "metatopic" of the book. If I remember rightly, if you find that a large number of your entries fit under one heading, you need to take another look. People already know where to find the Metatopic because they chose to read the book. Most of those subheadings should be examined to see if they are really headings. On the other hand, I often, at the risk of re-doing the table of contents, put some major headings under the metatopic. You have to be really careful with this. Authors tend to think that once you start, whatever you do will be too short. >> Yup, that was me. I also talk, though, about the exceptions to that rule--general subheadings that wouldn't make sense as headings on their own. As someone else said, every rule has an exception! Don't get me started on what authors understand about indexes...When I have a confused author every once in a while, it's usually because they're worried that not much, or nothing, is in the index under their most important topic. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 21:12:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith McQuay Subject: Word compare document feature Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When indexing in Word I am afraid I might accidentally insert a character or zap a paragraph. At the end of a job I turn on track changes and do a quick page down to check for accidents. Does anyone use compare document to do this? I've tried saving the starting version under a different filename, then comparing the indexed version, and either it's not working or I'm not seeing what it is showing me. Also, for one file I got the message that the document I'm comparing to already has changes do I want to continue. Don't know what that means either... I seem to remember compare document taking you to each change in the document from beginning to end but maybe that was WordPerfect. Any advice? Thanks Keith McQuay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:23:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Law Subject: Re: Cross-reference & multiple indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had a similar situation in which I worked cross-references between two indexes (name and subject) with an explanatory headnote indicating that persons indicated in bold type also appear in the name index. I am at the moment stumped as to how you might juggle three indexes, though. Caroly Law CLLaw Manuscript Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:11:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tree Bressen Subject: married couples' names In-Reply-To: <003501bf1971$5ecdaec0$e4d0173f@f82ps> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello folks, I am indexing a biography of an American educator in China. I am unsure how to list the following and would appreciate hearing suggestions (on- or off-list): Madame Chiang Kai-shek (the General's wife) Mr. and Mrs. H. H. Kung (i presume this name is westernized such that Kung is the surname) Mayor and Mrs. Liu Gi-wan (i suppose this name is non-westernized, so Liu would be the surname) Madame Sun Yat-sen (Sun is the surname) Madame Sung I can send a query to the author, but i imagine it is not likely she'll be able to find out the given names of the wives, with the possible exception of the Madames. Thanks, --Tree Bressen ------------------------------------------------------ Tree Bressen 2244 Alder St. Eugene, OR 97405 (541) 343-5023 tree@ic.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:06:53 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tree Bressen Subject: P.S. on married couples' names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" P.S. Here's more specificity on my query re Chinese couples. I know Chinese names should be listed surname first, uninverted (unless westernized). Therefore my questions are: (1) Do i include the title Mrs., when usually i would not include that in an index, because it is the only way to differentiate the woman? (2) If so, do i then include the title Mr. on male entries in order to be consistent? (3) If so, then for Liu do i use the title Mayor instead of Mr. even though usually political titles are not indexed? (4) If i include a title such as Mrs., does it occur at the end for Chinese names but before the given name for westernized names (e.g., Chiang Kai-shek, Madame, but Kung, Mrs. H. H.)? Here is the list again, for reference: Madame Chiang Kai-shek (the General's wife) Mr. and Mrs. H. H. Kung (i presume this name is westernized such that Kung is the surname) Mayor and Mrs. Liu Gi-wan (i suppose this name is non-westernized, so Liu would be the surname) Madame Sun Yat-sen (Sun is the surname) Madame Sung Thanks! --Tree ------------------------------------------------------ Tree Bressen 2244 Alder St. Eugene, OR 97405 (541) 343-5023 tree@ic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:09:06 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: Word compare document feature In-Reply-To: <199910210113.VAA04200@superaje.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I seem to remember compare document taking you to each change in the > document from beginning to end but maybe that was WordPerfect. I have Word 7 for Windows which does not seem to have a feature for comparing documents. I use a shareware utility Araxis PMDiff for comparing files. It has obvious drawbacks for word processor documents but it is the best I know of. For me, Word came free with the computer. I wouldn't spend good money on it. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:34:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marcy Brown Subject: Re: Word compare document feature MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Keith, I used to use a program called CompareRite, which was part of a suite of programs offered by Lexis-Nexis (the legal database folks). I do know that you can purchase the program separately from the other products in the suite, and I seem to remember it costing around $60 or so, although my recollection of cost could be completely wrong. I know that it is available for all major word processors. It did a more than adequate job for the review of legal contracts, which was my primary use. Here's where you can find more information: http://www.lexis-nexis.com/y2k/choices/compare.asp Good luck! Marcy Brown Wordsmith Services Delmont PA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:15:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Moore Subject: UPS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi! My wife is an indexer, but she passed this on to me as I am a computer technician by trade. A UPS can indeed be a valuable piece if equipment. APC is probably a good way to go due to their stature in the marketplace and the reputation they enjoy and have enjoyed for quite some time. Check out their website at http://www.apcc.com for some pretty thorough information. One thought I might add is that a "Smart UPS" is quite a bit better than just the standard for a multitude of reasons. But when looking to purchase, a serious look at a Smart UPS is well advised. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:39:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've started a practice of calling the editor a day or so after turning in an index job, and asking if it's ok. Rationale: if the editors are having problems with it, it's best for me to know immediately - and I would rather fix the index myself, than let them fiddle with it. Another reason to call is to see if they've received my invoice, have approved it, and will pay. If I don't do this, I may find myself calling them a couple of months later and discovering that they never even *saw* the invoice (because it was buried in other paper). Of course, it can be a little embarrassing to hear that the editor *is* having problems; but it's better than waiting in the dark, and perhaps never getting another job from that editor. Now I have a question. Does anybody use a written evaluation form for the purpose of soliciting the editor's comments? What questions do you ask? Do you include a SASE? Any comments on these lines will be highly appreciated. Peter Rooney magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:47:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: UPS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Moore wrote: > > Hi! My wife is an indexer, but she passed this on to me as I am a computer > technician by trade. > > A UPS can indeed be a valuable piece if equipment. APC is probably a good > way to go due to their stature in the marketplace and the reputation they > enjoy and have enjoyed for quite some time. Check out their website at > http://www.apcc.com for some pretty thorough information. > > One thought I might add is that a "Smart UPS" is quite a bit better than > just the standard for a multitude of reasons. But when looking to > purchase, a serious look at a Smart UPS is well advised. Although most of the persons on this list are computer literate, you MAY want to clarify that in the above message UPS does not stand for United Parcel Service, but in fact means "UNINTERRUPTED POWER SUPPLY." This is a device to keep your computer and peripherals running if your power goes out. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:55:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter: I also call the client the day after a job has been completed as a courtesy and to insure he/she was satisfied. Return business depends on that call (because I ask when the next project is coming). Many times I have discovered they had to tweak the index which should be my job. I try to make myself as invaluable as possible. As to your question, funny you should ask. I have just completed a survey which I plan to send to my clients (and maybe potential clients). If you are interested, I can send it to you off-list. Rob Robert A. , President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:20:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing Comments: cc: WEBIX@listbot.com, WINDMAIL@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Shelley Greenhouse wrote to Index-L: IMHO, this translates into the spectre of trying to re-index someone = else's index, albeit that someone else was Joe Microchip! It seems one = would need to do an actual index from scratch to , what a waste! My husband, a non-indexer but computer groupie and avid reader of = several computer magazines (because this industry changes moment to = moment!), suspects that WEB indexing will become totally automated due = to the great quantities of programs advertized in these magazines to = . =20 Because I am in the beginnings of studying to learn WEB indexing to = diversify my indexing qualifications, I hesitate to really spend any = time in such a study if my training will be obsolete and non-marketable = before I try to market my newly learned skills. What is your opinion, WEB indexers out there?=20 Ardith Ayotte, R.T. ABBA Index Services in sunny Virginia ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:41:46 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing Comments: To: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Comments: cc: WEBIX@listbot.com, WINDMAIL@listbot.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Because I am in the beginnings of studying to learn WEB indexing to diversify my indexing qualifications, I hesitate to really spend any time in such a study if my training will be obsolete and non-marketable before I try to market my newly learned skills. > > What is your opinion, WEB indexers out there? You will probably end up doing meta data tagging. Large sites in Australia have started to use this to index their site. The search engine then takes those tags to index the site automatically. You cannot index every word, even in a book. Garry Cousins did concept indexing for a CDROM - A History of Australia by Manning Clark. He indexed the concepts but left the search engine to index all the key words. You cannot compete with a program that can index every letter in the dictionary. However you can work on the concept index. This is why I have stopped creating a new Web indexing tool. I know there are whiz-kids out there who will try to out-do whatever I dream up. They will use XML or Java or meta data or some new database to streamline searching. However you cannot replace the quality of retrieval that a humble human generated index can create. You have to choose what the index is for. Are you after a complete and thorough key word index? Use a computer program. If you are after a briefer but more useful index then generate one by hand. I keep getting these kind of business oriented questions from the USA. Over there it is much more competitive than it is here. Here we are more likely to work for a large corporation who has asked us to index their intranet. You are not going to get far with most computer people. They believe everything is computable. Librarians are much better to work with on Web indexing. They know the value of a classified index. That is what librarians have been doing for 100s of years in various forms. I don't live off Web indexing. I mostly do Web sites and technical manuals. That is the hard facts of life. I only know of 2 people in Australia who are making any money from Web indexing - Glenda Browne and Madeleine Davis. There is one person I know in USA has worked for a large Web portal too full-time. They built on what I prepared through the Web indexing prize. Glenda does some meta data indexing on large govt sites and Madeleine Davis does Yahoo like category based indexing with AustLII (Australian Legal Information Institute.) Both are nice Web indexing jobs. They are not your usual 'one-off' indexes that book indexers seem to like to do. They are on-going indexes. They will change and need adding to as the Web sites change. This is the difference here. You are looking at database indexing when you look at Web indexing. It is like a treadmill - you never get off. That is why you use tools like Microsoft Index Server or some other meta data editor to just speed up the meta data tagging process. I hope that helps. I get a lot of egg on my face because people who did my course have not earned a red cent but I believe if you can do the occasional Web index or navigation design on a Web site you will be ready to do some large project like Madeleine landed. She was very lucky. Most indexers I know do not have full-time jobs with large institutions like AustLII. That is all I have to offer. No good luck charms in the indexing world I'm afraid. Start prodding Webmasters of large Web sites to see if they need a Web indexer or classifier or cataloguer or something similar. There is no harm doing some market research in this field. I cannot give too much away or I'd lose my edge in this very competitive field of indexing. That is the trouble with working in a field of 100% freelancers. No-one will really help you or they will lose work themselves. There is a lot to learn about being lateral in your thinking. Don't think like a book indexer. Think like a Web based business who constructs classified indexes for portals or other sites that MUST have a good retrieval rate. Search engines are not the place to be in this field, believe me. They DO NOT work. Throw some ideas together about where you think your skills in this field will lie then you will start to see where the traditional indexing model falls down here. You have to be a Net person not a book person. Break the mould. Go for electronic not paper... I did. It really has a lot of potential but will not just fall into your lap. Dig and explore in your spare time. Have a normal job to get by in the mean time. That is how I survive as I grow my micro-business. Life is a hard slog at times but can give you some rewards if you are ready for them. I find running a business like being in the army. You have to be so organised and ready for the opportunities that come across then jump at them and have a ready answer for the event that will make you money. That is my main suggestion in this new electronic world. Ask your husband to list all these products. I will go through them and see if they are what you need. They are not all what they are cracked up to be, mate! There is a lot of hype in computer circles believe it or not. Bye Dwight ---------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development Pty. Ltd. (ACN 088 959 086) PO Box 428, Merrylands, Sydney, 2160, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au, http://www.speakeasy.org/~dwight (US mirror) tel +61-2-96371649, mob +61-412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.icq.com) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:45:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: smaislin@LYCOS.COM Subject: Indexer Web Sites: posting on Lycos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Indexers with web sites, I just recently accepted a position at Lycos, the internal portal. As such, I am in a position to put indexing-related web sites online, in the Lycos database. This is my job; this offer comes today only. Here's what I need if you are interested in posting your web site online. (1) The URL of your site. (2) The name of your site. (3) A two-sentence description for your site. Do not be shamelessly self-promoting; try to be fair. I also reserve the right to edit these descriptions. Send this information -- and NOTHING else -- to smaislin@lycos.com. And I cannot be more clear here: follow these instructions precisely, or I will simply ignore you. I am doing this as a favor, but I am a Lycos employee first in this circumstance, and I will not tolerate abuse. I will accept the following kinds of indexing URLs: * commercial-style web sites for indexers (that is, web pages that talk about your job as indexers) * web sites for indexing companies or partnerships * web sites for companies that offer indexing services * web sites for companies that distribute indexing software * web sites for indexing societies or other professional groups (please submit only once!) * web sites for organized groups/chapters within societies, provided they have a domain that is different from the society's Being the editor of this section, I reserve the right to not include a web site if I feel that it is not appropriate to a list of indexing web sites. Deliberately duplicate submissions will upset me. Be nice. Get it right the first time. Once received, it can take 2 or 3 weeks before the sites go live on the Lycos site. After waiting that long, go to www.lycos.com and search for your site by name. Or visit http://dir.lycos.com/Business/Industries/Publishing/Indexing. Thank you for your understanding. Spread the word. Do not abuse this favor. - Seth Seth Maislin Directory Manager Lycos, Inc. smaislin@lycos.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:07:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated vs. manual indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" wrote: > > My husband ... suspects that WEB indexing will become totally > automated due to the great quantities of programs advertized in > these magazines to . > > What is your opinion, WEB indexers out there? I sincerely hope that does not happen, and not just for the obvious reasons. As I've stated on this list and elsewhere, I believe that: * Most web site visitors benefit from having a real index-- even if there's a search engine, too. * Good indexes come from good index entries, which come from skilled people, not from automation. * Indexers are the people with the right skills to do the work, and they can make a good living at it. I also know that there's a lot of misunderstanding about what an index is, and that a fully automated solution (concordances and the like) is very tempting to web site managers with large amounts of information or rapidly changing data. It may turn out that, as an indexer, you have to develop your understanding of hypertext, define a niche or expertise, sell your skills and the benefits to web site managers in your chosen area, and develop long-term relationships. I hope that's possible, because the alternative is a web full of sites where it's more difficult than it ought to be to find shat you're looking for. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:32:48 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Indexer Web Sites: posting on Lycos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sid, Please submit my site to Lycos as follows: (1) http://www.indexempire.com (2) IndexEmpire - Professional Book Indexes (3) IndexEmpire creates high-quality indexes for nonfiction books of many types and subjects. Jean Middleton, professional indexer, provides the indexing services. Thank you, Jean Middleton IndexPro@indexempire.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:36:29 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: jenny coates Subject: Re: Indexer Web Sites: posting on Lycos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello I have just started indexing and don't have a web site so I am not requesting a mention. I just wanted to say congratulations on your new job and hope you find it enjoyable and rewarding. Jenny Coates >From: smaislin@LYCOS.COM >Reply-To: "Indexer's Discussion Group" >To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU >Subject: Indexer Web Sites: posting on Lycos >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:45:27 -0400 > >Indexers with web sites, > >I just recently accepted a position at Lycos, the internal portal. As such, >I am >in a position to put indexing-related web sites online, in the Lycos >database. > >This is my job; this offer comes today only. Here's what I need if you are >interested in posting your web site online. > >(1) The URL of your site. >(2) The name of your site. >(3) A two-sentence description for your site. Do not be shamelessly >self-promoting; try to be fair. I also reserve the right to edit these >descriptions. > >Send this information -- and NOTHING else -- to smaislin@lycos.com. And I >cannot >be more clear here: follow these instructions precisely, or I will simply >ignore >you. I am doing this as a favor, but I am a Lycos employee first in this >circumstance, and I will not tolerate abuse. > >I will accept the following kinds of indexing URLs: > >* commercial-style web sites for indexers (that is, web pages that talk >about >your job as indexers) >* web sites for indexing companies or partnerships >* web sites for companies that offer indexing services >* web sites for companies that distribute indexing software >* web sites for indexing societies or other professional groups (please >submit >only once!) >* web sites for organized groups/chapters within societies, provided they >have a >domain that is different from the society's > >Being the editor of this section, I reserve the right to not include a web >site >if I feel that it is not appropriate to a list of indexing web sites. >Deliberately duplicate submissions will upset me. Be nice. Get it right the >first time. > >Once received, it can take 2 or 3 weeks before the sites go live on the >Lycos >site. After waiting that long, go to www.lycos.com and search for your site >by >name. Or visit >http://dir.lycos.com/Business/Industries/Publishing/Indexing. > >Thank you for your understanding. Spread the word. Do not abuse this favor. > >- Seth > >Seth Maislin >Directory Manager >Lycos, Inc. >smaislin@lycos.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:42:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Shirley K Warkentin Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I liked Peter's idea about calling the editor and asking about the index, the invoice, and future jobs. With new clients I send out the following one-page survey 2-3 weeks after the index is sent. The first four questions have simple checkboxes plus space to write. I always include a SASE. TO: FROM: REGARDING THE INDEX FOR: Please take a few minutes to answer these questions. Your answers will help me serve you better and save you editing time in the future. 1. The index was received early on time late 2. The style of the index met our specifications had to be changed in the following area to meet our specifications: 3. The length of the index was satisfactory too short too long 4. In general, the index was excellent satisfactory needed improvement in the following way: 5. Other comments: Shirley Warkentin Cornerstone Indexing BUILDING A BETTER BOOK! indexer@juno.com http://home.earthlink.net/~warkentin4 On Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:39:35 -0400 magnetix@IX.NETCOM.COM writes: > I've started a practice of calling the editor a day >or so after turning in an index job, and asking if it's >ok. Rationale: if the editors are having problems with it, >it's best for me to know immediately - and I would >rather fix the index myself, than let them fiddle >with it. > Another reason to call is to see if they've >received my invoice, have approved it, and will pay. >If I don't do this, I may find myself calling >them a couple of months later and discovering that >they never even *saw* the invoice (because it was >buried in other paper). > Of course, it can be a little embarrassing to hear >that the editor *is* having problems; but it's >better than waiting in the dark, and perhaps never >getting another job from that editor. > Now I have a question. > Does anybody use a written evaluation form for >the purpose of soliciting the editor's comments? >What questions do you ask? Do you include a SASE? >Any comments on these lines will be highly >appreciated. > > > >Peter Rooney >magnetix@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: beating me up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I just received my copy of a big job I did in August (for those of you who were in on it, the suicide book with the horrible names index that was as long as the subject index). When I sent in the index I felt really proud of it, and thought I had a done a really good job. Well, I just looked it over and saw at least 4 outright errors (what I consider errors) and several things that aren't really errors but that could have been done much better. I spent a lot of time on the edit phase, and I even waited a day and then gave it a final going over, yet still I made errors. I did get good feedback from the editor, who I guess didn't notice the errors. How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other locations, but didn't cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. How could I have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse I would have caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I gather every key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself. I really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all: I like Shirley's idea of a follow-up survey for newer clients. Great. Rob -- Robert A. , President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. " <> Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel: We're human. We do the best we can. I avoid errors by examining each piece of the index separately. I look at the cross references first, then the spelling, then the pagination. And, so on. I also make sure I get enough sleep so as not to make any mistakes. If your client keeps hiring you back, the proof is in the pudding, eh? Rob -- Robert A. , President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:50:58 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First - remember the closing line from the movie Some Like It Hot, where Jack Lemmon has confessed he is really a man - "well, nobody's perfect!" I've been indexing 27 years and I can still see this happen. You are dealing with an enormous amount of minutiae and no matter how much checking goes on, there will always be the possibility of errors. Typos stay in published books as well. For what it's worth, I do think that this happened less frequently (as infrequent still as it is) when I was using 3x5 cards and typing the final index. The computer brings problems as well as solutions. Second - do you do a line edit, that is, print the draft in order of input and go through line by line? Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com > > How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid > blatant errors? > For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other > locations, but didn't > cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. > How could I > have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse > I would have > caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I > gather every > key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or > that I got them > all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of > time. What can I > do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me > mad at myself. I > really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. > Not that I > expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been > there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. > > Rae > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:00:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: <380F4E12.172134D5@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:32 PM 10/21/99 -0500, you wrote: >Rachel: > > We're human. We do the best we can. I avoid errors by examining >each piece of the index separately. I look at the cross references >first, then the spelling, then the pagination. And, so on. I also make >sure I get enough sleep so as not to make any mistakes. > > If your client keeps hiring you back, the proof is in the pudding, >eh? > > Rob Hi All: I'm glad you said that, Rob. I was just about to post the same comment. No matter how much space you try to give a project, you'll still find things that you could have done differently. That's not good English, but hopefully it makes the point. Willa (who is trying to figure out how I can design a Halloween costume out of an index that I've written this year for the Halloween contra dance....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:52:42 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? Although computers aren't intelligent enough to make indexes, they might become able to check indexes using artificial-intelligence techniques. The error-checking facilities of the present indexing programs could be developed further, perhaps incorporating thesauri. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:08:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index In-Reply-To: <380F1B43.A67D6371@mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Peter: > > I also call the client the day after a job has been completed as a >courtesy and to insure he/she was satisfied. Return business depends on >that call (because I ask when the next project is coming). Many times I >have discovered they had to tweak the index which should be my job. I >try to make myself as invaluable as possible. > > As to your question, funny you should ask. I have just completed a >survey which I plan to send to my clients (and maybe potential >clients). If you are interested, I can send it to you off-list. > > Rob Though this sounds like a great idea for the indexer, I imagine editors might be hard pressed to find the time to complete such a survey. Perhaps it would be more profitable to take a moment of their time on the phone, either after it's sent out or without even sending it out. Naomi J. Naomi Linzer: Indexing Services POB 1341 459 Redway Drive Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:07:23 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Back Words Indexing Subject: Re: beating me up Comments: To: Rachel Rice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1271585131==_ma============" --============_-1271585131==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant >errors? ... Should I gather every >key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them >all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I >do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at >myself. I really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make >mistakes. Not that I >expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been >there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. Thank you for bringing up this thread, Rachel. I could have written your whole note. I am preparing to attend the PNW/ASI Fall Meeting with my three copies of an index which will be critiqued by fellow indexers in one of the afternoon sessions. As I look over the index I'll take to the meeting and which I submitted six weeks ago to the satisfaction of the publisher, I groan. I am doing two things (at least) to (try to) help myself stop groaning in the future. 1) I often add a hidden note in Cindex's curly brackets (often with a question mark in it to make sure I clear it up eventually - my last three process are always to verify cross-references, spell check again, and Find All hidden question marks again) into entries for the other terms or synonyms that will call up the entry when I do the Find All portion of my editing. This can be in the entry itself, or in a subentry, or even in a sub-subentry which I will definitely remove later. (I do a Find All on most roots throughout the index: "ident", for example, could call up "identify", "identification", "self-identity", "cultural identity", and "intercultural personhood{identity}" and "process relationship{identity}" - then I can decide how to connect or separate them correctly.) and 2) I have created a subgroup of indexers from Index-L who can sometimes respond to calls from each other to "review" indexes. When I review an index for someone else, I gain by seeing another's style. I can catch errors that they make that I suddenly realize I make too. I incorporate the solutions, or at least the awareness, into my own subsequent work. When I have an index reviewed, their suggestions about my format, subentries, word choice, prepositions, use of gerunds/participles, C-R and D-P, clarity, relationships, even spelling, etc., take the scales from my eyes. Yeah, it's scary: they might find out that I'm really all hot air and no substance, but I still think this review-sharing process is worth it.* Martha Osgood Back Word Indexing (*notice the subtle sales pitch to encourage others to be a part of this review-sharing group...) --============_-1271585131==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? ... Should I gather every key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself. I really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. Thank you for bringing up this thread, Rachel. I could have written your whole note. I am preparing to attend the PNW/ASI Fall Meeting with my three copies of an index which will be critiqued by fellow indexers in one of the afternoon sessions. As I look over the index I'll take to the meeting and which I submitted six weeks ago to the satisfaction of the publisher, I groan. I am doing two things (at least) to (try to) help myself stop groaning in the future. 1) I often add a hidden note in Cindex's curly brackets (often with a question mark in it to make sure I clear it up eventually - my last three process are always to verify cross-references, spell check again, and Find All hidden question marks again) into entries for the other terms or synonyms that will call up the entry when I do the Find All portion of my editing. This can be in the entry itself, or in a subentry, or even in a sub-subentry which I will definitely remove later. (I do a Find All on most roots throughout the index: "ident", for example, could call up "identify", "identification", "self-identity", "cultural identity", and "intercultural personhood{identity}" and "process relationship{identity}" - then I can decide how to connect or separate them correctly.) and 2) I have created a subgroup of indexers from Index-L who can sometimes respond to calls from each other to "review" indexes. When I review an index for someone else, I gain by seeing another's style. I can catch errors that they make that I suddenly realize I make too. I incorporate the solutions, or at least the awareness, into my own subsequent work. When I have an index reviewed, their suggestions about my format, subentries, word choice, prepositions, use of gerunds/participles, C-R and D-P, clarity, relationships, even spelling, etc., take the scales from my eyes. Yeah, it's scary: they might find out that I'm really all hot air and no substance, but I still think this review-sharing process is worth it.* Martha Osgood Back Word Indexing (*notice the subtle sales pitch to encourage others to be a part of this review-sharing group...) --============_-1271585131==_ma============-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:47:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel, We would all like to be able to catch all errors...but it is just not possible to be perfect, so stop beating yourself up. However, I catch quite a few errors by letting the index cook...after I do my final edits, I set the index aside for a short time and start working on another index. It's amazing what you see when you come back to a project after focusing on something else! Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 11728 Elkhead Range Road Littleton, CO 80127-3706 Rachel Rice wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just received my copy of a big job I did in August (for those of you who > were in on it, the suicide book with the horrible names index that was as > long as the subject index). When I sent in the index I felt really proud of > it, and thought I had a done a really good job. Well, I just looked it over > and saw at least 4 outright errors (what I consider errors) and several > things that aren't really errors but that could have been done much better. > I spent a lot of time on the edit phase, and I even waited a day and then > gave it a final going over, yet still I made errors. I did get good > feedback from the editor, who I guess didn't notice the errors. > > How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? > For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other locations, but didn't > cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. How could I > have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse I would have > caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I gather every > key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them > all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I > do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself. I > really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I > expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been > there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. > > Rae > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:42:25 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: beating me up Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks for everyone's great ideas but they bring up more questions for me. I do verify cross references, several times, in fact, and always as the last thing I check before saving as an .rtf to make a Word file. But that will only check that I didn't make any circular, dead end, or malformed xrefs. It won't tell me that I never thought to xref to substance abuse from abuse. I do edit in a printed out version, but I've never done one in order of input. Charles, can you elaborate a bit? What are you looking for when you do the line edit this way? The only thing I can think of is checking page numbers and ranges, but I always check the pages before I save the record, so I don't know if that would be of much use. How will it help me not to miss things like the abuse xref? What else will it help with? Here's my editing process, more or less. I do a lot of interim editing, usually when I start up every day. By going over what I've done already it refreshes my memory and gets me in gear. I usually find a few things to fix. I do a lot of Find alls, like Martha does, in fact I do that very frequently throughout the inputting phase. While I'm working throughout, I keep a Stickies memo open (for non-Mac people, it's just a notepad type of thing) and on it put things like: xref abuse <--shoulda but didn't this time, I'm abusing myself for missing this important xref gather methods, rates of incidence, etc reverse (and/or flip) all somethings, thingys, whosits, etc verify spelling of such and such check if this is the same as that As I do these things I move them to the bottom of the list under a line, which signifies to me that I did it. I go over this list when I think I'm done and do anything I forgot to do, and see if I should recheck any of them. After everything is inputted, I print out the index and make one pass just looking for duplicates next to each other, like cat and cats. Well, that wouldn't happen, but sometimes I flip entries and end up with some weird stuff right next to each other, like making a better index making better indexes (well obviously I wouldn't have an entry like those but you get my drift) Next pass through the printout checks page numbers, to avoid things like cats, 2-15, 13 Next pass I read all the entries looking for consolidations or where I need to expand, or whatever else I see. I make notes of things to recheck or double check in the margin, circle things to pull out (I shoulda circled abuse!), connect things that need to be consolidated, stuff like that. I check that I double posted where I should have, made main entries of subs wehre necessary, stuff like that. I have a whole ton of personal abbrevs and symbols, sort of like editor's symbols, but all my own. Then I make all those changes, spell check again, verify xrefs again, and print out again. If lucky, I've had enough time to wait a day for this last pass. Sometimes I don't even have time for this last pass at all. This time I read it all over again, trying to sort of free-float my mind, I can't really describe it, sort of go outside of it and look at the whole picture. I can usually pick up a few more things this way that I missed before. Yet still, I miss things. If these things are so glaring to me now, why did I miss them before? I know that time and distance has a lot to do with it, but still, jeesh. I hope more people will post some tips of what they do. I appreciate the reminders that we aren't perfect. I guess I should give myself credit for caring that I made mistakes. And as I've said before and will say again, the reason I like to index as an adjunct to psychiatric crisis intervention is that if I screw up an index, no one is going to die. Not necessarily true in my other job. Anyway, thanks to all the answerers so far, and looking forward to seeing more. Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:53:10 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rae, Your note arrived just when I was pondering how I could be sure that the indexing I am working on was thorough and accurate without being overindexed. It made me realize that even experienced indexers don't always get it exactly right. As everyone has mentioned, no index is perfect. I would imagine that even if you could fix the "mistakes" you said you made, if you looked at the index again the next day, you would find other "mistakes" as well. I noticed that even when I use Nancy Mulvany's book, there are things I try to find in the index that are not there. However, I certainly am interested in any tips and techniques that folks can offer to minimize the problems you describe. I find that using the Group function in Macrex (I guess other software has a similar function) to see the relationship between similar entries is one of the most helpful utilities I have found so far (in addition to going over the index in several passes, looking for a different thing each time as well as looking at the index after having been away from it for a couple of hours to a day or so). Hope your confidence has returned with all the feedback! Nina Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Rice To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:12 AM Subject: beating me up >Hi all, > >I just received my copy of a big job I did in August (for those of you who >were in on it, the suicide book with the horrible names index that was as >long as the subject index). When I sent in the index I felt really proud of >it, and thought I had a done a really good job. Well, I just looked it over >and saw at least 4 outright errors (what I consider errors) and several >things that aren't really errors but that could have been done much better. >I spent a lot of time on the edit phase, and I even waited a day and then >gave it a final going over, yet still I made errors. I did get good >feedback from the editor, who I guess didn't notice the errors. > >How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? >For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other locations, but didn't >cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. How could I >have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse I would have >caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I gather every >key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them >all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I >do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself. I >really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I >expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been >there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. > >Rae > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:06:03 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is reading the index in hard copy, in addition to whatever reading, checking, and editing you do on the screen. I find things leaping out off the paper that I didn't spot on the screen. Somehow I think the brain works differently when faced with a paper copy than when reading online. I often print an interim copy just before leaving the project for the day, and look at it with fresh eyes in the morning, or at the next work session. Try it -- it may work for you. If not, forget it. It's a waste then. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:17:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rachel, It sounds like you have developed a lot of techniques to improve the quality of your indexes. The only thing I can think of to add is something I do in my non-working time, such as in the shower or taking a walk, when I am otherwise not thinking about the index: I think about the large concepts in the book and how they relate to each other, trying to put myself in the reader's place at the conceptual level. Often this gives me an idea of at least one cross-reference to add. I don't do this for every book, just for the complex ones. I also use this tactic to brainstorm ideas for the wording of headings and subheadings for complex topics in a book. I find that this bit of distance really helps. If I feel it is necessary, I try to do this thinking early in the editing process, or even before I start entering headings in my software. I also try to manage my time so that I finish most of the editing of an index the day before I need to send it, so that, as someone else mentioned, I can look at it with fresh eyes in the morning and not feel pressured that last day. And FWIW, I too know exactly what you're going through. I sometimes look at my indexes later and can't believe I made certain decisions. I have looked at one of my indexes in a bookstore, wondering if the editor changed something, because I can't imagine using specific words in a subentry. Then I come home, look at the file I sent to the client, and realize that they published what I sent. Strange feeling. Or maybe it's just my memory going... Best, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:38:08 -0400 Reply-To: Nospam@mymailbox.concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "J. Naomi Linzer" wrote: > > Though this sounds like a great idea for the indexer, I imagine editors > might be hard pressed to find the time to complete such a survey. Perhaps > it would be more profitable to take a moment of their time on the phone, you know, this subject was addressed at the Heartland ASI conference. Several of the more experienced indexers felt the same--that it would be too taxing on most editors to fill out and return a printed survey. Some folks there said they had reduced the feedback to a form that was sent with the index, with check-boxes and so forth, POSTAGE PAID, so that the editor/author could check off categories of satisfaction and areas of concern. The upshot was that some pros prefer to have feedback, and others didn't bother because, as they stated, if you have repeat work from the same publisher, you're probably doing fine! I think this might be driven also by the number of layers that your index has to travel through before final acceptance. If there is more than one person who will be reviewing it, a feedback form might be a real problem for anyone to complete. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:43:15 -0400 Reply-To: Nospam@mymailbox.concentric.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: All the time. It's my job. Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You know, Rachel, this is exactly the kind of thing I stressed out over when I was taking the USDA course. I found that asking another person what they thought was also helpful. Such as "what would YOU look up in this publication?" This probably isn't possible with very technical stuff, but if you are doing books for general readership, or highly narrative work, it might be refreshing to see it from other points of view. I think I would tend to want to resist anything that extended the amount of time I had to work on an index, however; for instance, I wouldn't write my distant cousin several states away and ask a bunch of long questions. But if you have an expert around--a teacher/professor, or perhaps someone who has read books of the nature of the one you're doing--asking them what they might want to SEE in the index could possibly help. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:06:13 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of perfection..... Someone once told me that Balzac would try to make changes even after his manuscript was in the process of being typeset. Since type was set by hand, Balzac made a real nuisance of himself. The printers finally started keeping their doors locked just in case Balzac might try to burst in and make changes. I have never seen this story in print, so it may not be true. If it isn't, it should be! Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 16:08:22 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel, My suggestion probably won't help you with cross references, and I don't always do it myself. However, there are several things that I find helpful about this kind of edit. Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index copy to the printed page if both are in exactly the same order. For example: 1) If I am working with a lot of foreign names, particularly long and difficult ones, maybe with odd accent marks, even though I can watch the spelling as I enter, being able to review the page proofs and the printed index in the exact same order makes it easier to check entries. 2) For the same reason, if you are at all prone to typos (that spell checkers won't catch) it is a lot easier to look up information as you work through the edit if the entries are in the same order as the pages. 3) Also, since there are editors who do go through the index line by line checking spelling and page references, I'd rather not be caught by one of them with a simple mistake. (Although, as others have said, no one is perfect!) Charles > -----Original Message----- > I do edit in a printed out version, but I've never done one > in order of > input. Charles, can you elaborate a bit? What are you looking > for when you > do the line edit this way? The only thing I can think of is > checking page > numbers and ranges, but I always check the pages before I > save the record, > so I don't know if that would be of much use. How will it > help me not to > miss things like the abuse xref? What else will it help with? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:02:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: <0.325769fd.2540eae4@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >And FWIW, I too know exactly what you're going through. I sometimes look at >my indexes later and can't believe I made certain decisions. I have looked >at one of my indexes in a bookstore, wondering if the editor changed >something, because I can't imagine using specific words in a subentry. Then >I come home, look at the file I sent to the client, and realize that they >published what I sent. Strange feeling. Or maybe it's just my memory >going... Hi All: It's comforting to know that even experienced indexers have this same reaction several weeks or months after submitting an index. I've only been indexing for a couple of years, but when I print out an index that I've done a few months or weeks earlier, I always find things that I thought should be done differently. It's not your memory. It's just that you have dropped an index for a while and are looking at it with a different pair of eyes later on. Willa (wondering what's wrong with me when I'm thinking about spending an evening indexing rather than contra dancing...at least I can console myself with the fact that I'll be playing at a contra dance tomorrow nite...and feeling lucky to be living in a city with so much folk music...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Rachel, Charles Anderson and some of the others who have replied to you have the right idea. We are human. We all make errors from time to time. If we were machines, we would make even more errors. Every index I submit has a covering memo. Near the end of the covering memo is this sentence, or one similar: "Please look over the index manuscript carefully for any errors I may have made." Sometimes I add to this by suggesting that the editor specifically look at the foreign names or words, or look at the jargon I may not be familiar with. Sometimes, when I am exchanging letters with a new client, I have a sentence like this "I am only human and capable of making the usual sort of errors which humans make." There have been times that I have had clients (usually book packagers) complain that they found an error or several errors in one of my indexes. If I get a chance to reply, I ask them if they expect their authors to submit their manuscripts completely error-free. As we all know, spell checkers have are very limited in the errors they will find in indexes. I am happy about the ones they do find, but more often than not, my indexes contain too many proper nouns or jargon for a spell checker to do much good. I am dubious of technological fixes for all our problems. Rachael, just keep up the good work and stop beating yourself up. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: <199910212346.TAA17533@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep a copy of Bob Richardson's remarks on "An Indexer's Life" prominently displayed on my wall. I won't repost the whole thing (maybe Bob will), but basically it reminds us that indexers are the only people in the entire publishing process who are expected to get it right the first time, with no editors or proofreaders giving us feedback. Think of yourself as an author who must submit his work as a finished product in one pass. No editors, no proofreaders, no intermediate drafts. Just one shot. Under those circumstances, how bad can you feel about a handful of minor mistakes? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Christin Keck To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index > "J. Naomi Linzer" wrote: > > > > Though this sounds like a great idea for the indexer, I imagine editors > > might be hard pressed to find the time to complete such a survey. Perhaps > > it would be more profitable to take a moment of their time on the phone, > > > you know, this subject was addressed at the Heartland ASI > conference. Several of the more experienced indexers felt > the same--that it would be too taxing on most editors to > fill out and return a printed survey. Some folks there said > they had reduced the feedback to a form that was sent with > the index, with check-boxes and so forth, POSTAGE PAID, so > that the editor/author could check off categories of > satisfaction and areas of concern. Regarding the issue of time, I would think that e-mail might be the least intrusive, if it's an option. Include your questions, give instructions to hit reply and answer the multiple choice, check box questions. > > The upshot was that some pros prefer to have feedback, and > others didn't bother because, as they stated, if you have > repeat work from the same publisher, you're probably doing > fine! I think feedback (in this format) is probably unecessary if you get repeat business. If this is a new client, as Shirley mentioned, then it might be just the type of thing to seal the deal. They might appreciate that you are looking for this type of feedback (even if they don't respond to it ). On the other hand (isn't there always another hand?), they might think you lack experience or confidence and never use you again. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:58:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Anderson To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 7:08 PM Subject: Re: beating me up > Rachel, > > My suggestion probably won't help you with cross references, and I don't > always do it myself. However, there are several things that I find helpful > about this kind of edit. > > Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index copy to > the printed page if both are in exactly the same order. For example: This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as they go. By this I mean, those who enter new locators in the same record as the previous ones. I tend to do this so I can get a better picture of the index as it is constructed and so I don't have to spend time at the end adjusting 4 subheads that mean the same thing, but are worded slightly different from each other e.g. Counterintelligence during WWII WWII examples in Japan, during WWII You get the idea. So I might take the first one and use it all the time. Cindex allows you to type the first few letters of an entry and it will "jump" to it, allowing you to select it easily and add a new locator to the ones already listed. I find that the improved consistency is worth not being able to do a page order sort. Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:03:19 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beating Me Up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All - As an old theater cat, how can I resist a bit of applause? Dick Evans wrote: >I keep a copy of Bob Richardson's remarks on "An Indexer's Life" prominently >displayed on my wall. I won't repost the whole thing (maybe Bob will), but >basically it reminds us that indexers are the only people in the entire >publishing process who are expected to get it right the first time, with no >editors or proofreaders giving us feedback.< This is the last page of the original posting. It is what Dick was referring to: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` "But consider, also, this perspective: Indexers are the only professionals with any kind of creative role (indexing is a creative act!) who are expected to do a flawless job right out of the box, on the first try, under tremendous time pressure, on a book of unknown complexity and coherence, often multi-authored, on a subject (or even a language) they might not have worked with before, often received piecemeal with unpaginated proofs and chapters out-of-sequence, and do it with virtually no time to study the text, little opportunity to discuss alternatives or resolve questions, and no opportunity to see what changes might have been made to their work without their knowledge or consent. All this with the probability that if anything goes wrong they will not have a chance to correct it, and perhaps will not hear from that publisher again. Oh yes, and usually do it anonymously. Very few people in publishing operate under such constraints. "The other side of that coin is this: In the world of commercial publishing, indexing is a profession that still affords the increasingly rare opportunity to be both independent and creative. When the indexer starts to work, she/he is alone with the text and with her own skill, insight, experience, and depth of understanding. It is one of the last truly professional experiences: to be entirely responsible for the quality of one's work on one's own terms. "Of course there are publishers' guidelines and house standards, but in the final cut it's the indexer, all alone with the book (often late in the night), who brings forth this delicately-balanced, complex, tapestry called an index. And at its best it is very, very satisfying.... " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:16:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing Comments: To: Web Indexers' Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In response to this question from Ardith Ayotte... > > Because I am in the beginnings of studying to learn WEB indexing to > diversify my indexing qualifications, I hesitate to really spend any > time in such a study if my training will be obsolete and non-marketable > before I try to market my newly learned skills. > > > > What is your opinion, WEB indexers out there? ...Dwight Walker wrote: > > You will probably end up doing meta data tagging... The search engine > then takes those tags to index the site automatically. This is true if your goal is to prepare the site for access by a keyword-based search engine; otherwise, there is no reason to limit yourself to file-level access. The "keywords" META tag associates keywords with files, but you may want to index specific locations *within* those files. NAMEd anchors are valid targets for your index entries, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to include them in your index. The problem is that there's no standard mechanism for associating keywords with anchors--that's one of the reasons we developed HTML Indexer. > > I only know of 2 people in Australia who are making any money from Web > indexing... There must be at least six! :) Our Australian customers currently include: * Education Queensland * Australian Taxation Office * New South Wales Department of Health * TACTICS Consulting Glenda Browne also uses HTML Indexer to maintain the AusSI web site index. > > [Web site indexes] are on-going [sic] indexes. They will change and > need adding to as the Web sites change. Indeed, so good indexers can develop mutually advantageous relationships with their clients. > > You are looking at database indexing when you look at Web indexing. I disagree. Database indexing is much better suited to automation than web site indexing. A good web site index looks and works much like the index at the back of a book. > > That is why you use tools like Microsoft Index Server or some other meta > data editor to just speed up the meta data tagging process. Index Server only serves up the fruits of a human indexer's efforts. It has nothing to do with the *creation* of "keywords" META tags--that still requires intellect. Again, I urge indexers not to limit themselves to file-level entries, but to advocate the advantages of a back-of-the-book index to web site managers. See the short article "Why Create an Index?" on the HTML Indexer web site for more information and links to related articles. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:28:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread is great and it has really gotten me thinking. I'm wondering if anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols? For instance, Rachel indicates that she circles things to pull out to main headings. What are some of the other things that need to be indicated on index drafts. Here are some ideas and possible symbols: 1. subs that need to be made main heads [ M ] 2. main heads that need to be made subs of another main head S-mainheadname ] 3. cross-refs needed [ x-refs ] 4. double posts needed (via inversion/via rewording) [ DP-inv ] [ DP-rew ] 5. an entry that needs more locators (gathering related topics) [ Find (topicname) ] 6. main entry that needs subs [ S ] I'm not sure what else, but there must be more. There are the standard editing symbols for spelling errors and the like also. I like to have a really detailed, organized system for everything or I can't remember to do it. I mean, if I don't write it on a list, it ain't gettin' done! Ask the dog who ate hamburger and rice for almost a week because I kept forgeting to buy dog food! Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Rachel Rice To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 5:42 PM Subject: Re: beating me up > > Next pass I read all the entries looking for consolidations or where I need > to expand, or whatever else I see. I make notes of things to recheck or > double check in the margin, circle things to pull out (I shoulda circled > abuse!), connect things that need to be consolidated, stuff like that. I > check that I double posted where I should have, made main entries of subs > wehre necessary, stuff like that. I have a whole ton of personal abbrevs > and symbols, sort of like editor's symbols, but all my own. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:06:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indexlady@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index editing symbols MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> I think it's great if you're working in a publishing house, and someone else has to do your data entry. Or, if you train other indexers, and have THEM do the data entry. Otherwise, UCKEY-POOH! There goes all the fun and spontaneity out of this job! It has the same overtones of learning proofreading marks just for the sake of it. More uckey-pooh! I don't WRITE out stuff. I draw pictures. It's much, much faster for me. I'd DIE if I had to WRITE something out. Forming letters seems like a left-brained activity, or some such. I know that if I'm in a REALLY big hurry, I don't write right-to-left. I write left-to-right and often have the letters in mirror image. Heaven help any person who has to do my data entry! For inversion, I use a curved arrow and usually a slash through the approximate area where the inversion should occur. I also use orange highlighter for main thoughts, and circle with purple ink stuff for further descriptors or such, with lines through the paragraph indicating what orange thing that the purple thing goes with. Purple circles and lines all drawn without lifting the pen. Write an "M"? Nope, slash through it with an orange highlighter. My mind isn't stopped on trying forming a correct letter. The drawing allows me to continue on with my indexing thoughts, without stopping, unlike WRITING. Much faster. Also, write out "x-ref"? I draw an X, although it doesn't LOOK like an X because I don't lift my pen. So, it's closed on the right side, where normally it's open. I also have a habit of writing numbers in such a hurry that they almost look like a foreign language because I don't lift my pen. That's the only thing I do write out. Beside every entry, I write the page ref's. That way, I just sit down with the book, and data entry. Really never have to analyze the material again. (I used to just input and read at the same time, but this last project has broken me of that habit.) This is what I LOVE about indexing--the "free to be me" part! Including marking the proofs. That's one thing I ALWAYS ask the publisher--Do you want your proofs back? If yes, I make my own set. I'd never send back a set I've marked all over--it would look like a child has been at work. Yet, it works for me! And my hubby instinctively understands my scribbles (he spot-checks my work for the fun of it). D ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:20:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Partly this has to do with being inside a system. It is always most difficult to evaluate a system, any system that one is part of. That's why therapy happens - to get someone else outside the system to guide you to new ways of thinking. After having worked on an index for many days or several weeks, one becomes a part of its system. Often, one begins to see things as they should be rather than they are. I know I am terrible at proofreading material I have been indexing: I just don't see the obvious mistakes. Finally, when you have sent the index in and start to work on another, you are back outside the system and see the obvious/glaring errors. Analysis: stuff happens. Do you best and know you have done it. The rest is small stuff. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > Yet still, I miss things. If these things are so glaring to me now, why did > I miss them before? I know that time and distance has a lot to do with it, > but still, jeesh. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 23:13:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel's "Stickies" notes are similar to what I do, but I do it in the index itself. I almost always have a heading GROUP, under which I subhead the words, phrases, or parts of words ("identi") that I may want to group at the end. Once I finish the index, I group each of these terms in turn, looking for inconsistencies and places where I should cross-reference and/or combine terms. After I group and clean up a term, I delete it under GROUP; when I'm done, the heading disappears. I also have a heading NOTES, under which I subhead any non-group things I want to be sure to do, like look for all hyphens followed by a number (to catch date ranges which should have an en dash between them). These stay in until I've done them, which sometimes means that I remove them in the word processor file rather than in SKY. I also have a standard series of codes set up on macros. These include codes like CHK DIV, which goes after a name to remind me to double-check the inversion. At the end of the input process, I can pull up these codes as necessary, deal with what needs to be dealt with, and eliminate the codes with a Find/Remove All. I forgot to mention that any notes I throw into the index go in as ALL CAPS, which makes them *much* easier to spot! That way, I don't leave them in by accident. I have a standard checklist I put the index through on final edit; it includes looking for and eliminating any remaining notes. I find that notes and codes make it much easier for me to remember to do things: Oh, yes, I needed to group that term; Oops, don't forget to check those hyphens. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net