Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9910D" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:30:03 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South Wales, and about Sydney. This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg, New South Wales'. Is there a better way? I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where I really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making 'spiral pasta cheese'). (This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park, but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under 'Bobbin Head'). Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:25:35 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: the future of web indexing (was automated vs. manual) In-Reply-To: <000e01bf1bd2$68885330$020000c0@sinbad> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Predictions of the future so often underestimate (et, the world market for photocopiers is about five (or somthing like that)) or overestimate (eg, the paperless office is nearly here) that it is really hard to tell what will happen. All you can do is position yourself for what you consider the likeliest occurrence. At the level of searching the whole internet, I believe that subtle developments will make automated searching much more feasible. Some of these tap into mass human brainpower, eg, of all the people who searched Yahoo for 'stomach ulcers', 50% chose X's website, so next time someone searches for 'stomach ulcers' we'll put her site to the top. On this scale statistical methods also become much more useful. (Of course, commercial imperatives can make it work the other way, so if Y pays a bit they go higher up in the list (I forget which sites do this)). At the level of a single document, eg, a book, it is a lot harder to imagine automated indexing doing anything useful. In my experience, 5 years ago everyone would have expected computers to do everything, and now a lot of people are involving humans, so I think the trends suggest continued involvement of humans for a while. There is also a difference between guessing what will happen, and getting involved to MAKE something happen. There are great sites out there with lousy access. What can we do about it? We can write and offer our services. Even if a tiny percentage respond positively this'll bring work for a decade. (This is hypothetical; I plan to do this, but haven't had time). I work as a 'web indexer' for one government department, in which a librarian suggested that they add metadata to enhance access. We need to communicate with other info workers, eg, librarians and web managers, to create our niche. A lot of it comes down to allocation of resources. We often say no-one can afford to index the whole Internet. I think it was Bella Haas Weinberg in an article in Keywords or The Indexer who made the excellent point that in the past a lot of money has gone into 'indexing' (in its many forms), but these were spread over different libraries, book publishers, etc. It is when all the info is massed together that the costs look overwhelming. I always figure that if an organisation can pay, say, 2 web staff per year ($80,000) they could easily pay an indexer a few thousand to organise an index for them. We jsut need to develop our marketing skills. Cheers, Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 22:29:34 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing Comments: To: "David M. Brown" , Web Indexers' Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is true if your goal is to prepare the site for access by a keyword-based search engine; otherwise, there is no reason to limit yourself to file-level access. > > The "keywords" META tag associates keywords with files, but you may want to index specific locations *within* those files. NAMEd anchors are valid targets for your index entries, and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to include them in your index. The problem is that there's no standard mechanism for associating keywords with anchors--that's one of the reasons we developed HTML Indexer. Just because you are indexing at a file level does not stop the usefulness of the index created via a search engine. I can't see how an HTML Indexer generated index can handle over a few 1000 entries. After that it will fail due to the labour required to keep it up to date. Embedded indexing through meta data is much more efficient than your tool when there are 100,000s of links to index. Yours would take years to index. Mine would take several weeks. > There must be at least six! :) Our Australian customers currently include: > > * Education Queensland > * Australian Taxation Office > * New South Wales Department of Health > * TACTICS Consulting > > Glenda Browne also uses HTML Indexer to maintain the AusSI web site index. I have trained several University and corporate librarians in Sydney in Web indexing using meta data. They are now using that in their library Web sites. That is way better than a one off index that requires much more labour to maintain. Most of my customers want to take the indexing inhouse. HTML Indexer cannot handle that. It requires specialised indexers to use it. Mine is for librarians and non-indexing personnel. My training in meta data is more extensible and open ended than your technology. I work in with the Webmaster, librarian and provide a range of HTML tools and methods of indexing, not just one way. We are more diverse and flexible than your single product. > Indeed, so good indexers can develop mutually advantageous relationships with their clients. Not always the case. I find most Australian companies tend to shaft you after about a year to save the cost of consultants. You have to have much more than a good relationship to keep them from doing that. > I disagree. Database indexing is much better suited to automation than web site indexing. A good web site index looks and works much like the index at the back of a book. Your back of book style Web indexing was what I pushed about 2 years ago. Now I see it does not cater for very large sites. It may do for small sites or intranets but you cannot handle very large sites with back of book style Web indexes. > Index Server only serves up the fruits of a human indexer's efforts. It has nothing to do with the *creation* of "keywords" META tags--that still requires intellect. Yes, but there are ways of automating this using software to multiply meta tags very quickly. There is a product that will do this already called Metabot (see ASI Web indexing SIG Web page): http://www.tetranetsoftware.com/products/metabot.htm Intellect is no good if it cannot scale. Meta data scales. Back of book style Web indexing does not. Dwight ---------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker WWWalker Web Development Pty. Ltd. (ACN 088 959 086) PO Box 428, Merrylands, Sydney, 2160, Australia http://www.wwwalker.com.au, http://www.speakeasy.org/~dwight (US mirror) tel +61-2-96371649, mob +61-412-405727, fax +61-2-97772058 ICQ No. 4631678, handle: wwwalker (www.icq.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:37:19 -0400 Reply-To: tombrown@mint.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: tom brown Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The problem I find with an entry "See also specific " is that the reader may have no idea what these names might be. In the example entry "Australia, see also names of specific towns and states," I would have no idea what the states are, and know only a couple of towns. Ideally, there might be an entry "States, listed,".but that would work only if the text actually contained such a list. -- ____ /om tombrown@mint.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Glenda Jermey wrote (in part): > If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however > broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone > looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South > Wales, and about Sydney. > > This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South > Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and > territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be > mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general > reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg, > New South Wales'. Is there a better way? ... > > > Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:56:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: getting feedback from clients MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Rooney asked: "Does anybody use a written evaluation form for the purpose of soliciting the editor's comments? What questions do you ask? Do you include a SASE? Any comments on these lines will be highly appreciated." I include a self-addressed stamped postcard whenever I submit a job to a client. I pre-print them here in my office, and fill-in the author/title of the work indexed, the date I sent it, and my signature before including it in the packet. The rest of the card includes space for the client to fill in the date they received the job, whether it met *their* specifications or not, and then several blank lines for comments/suggestions. At the top of the card I have something about "was my index on top of the world?" (some of my cards have world maps and globes on them) or "was my index as great as it could've been?" "Please help me improve my services so that I can provide great indexes to you for all your great books" -- or words to that effect. I haven't tallied how many of these I get back, but I do get most of them back. The feedback is generally positive or noncommittal (lots of yes's, or "fine" and "great" and such). But I often do get constructive comments on the blank lines, things that I can really apply like "really liked how you handled such-and-such" or "the bold didn't look so hot in final typesetting, please use italics next time" or some such. Many thanks to Sonsie Conroy for this idea, a few years back here on INDEX-L! Unfortunately, I've yet to find a suitable substitute for e-mail submissions. No matter how often I ask for a reply ("Please confirm if you got the file okay," for example), I often don't get much constructive feedback. --It's either that the file didn't convert as expected and they need another version, or they got it wonderfully and everything is just hunky dory and I'm fantastic. happy indexing, Pilar L. Pilar Wyman WYMAN INDEXING Annapolis, MD 410-757-7119 PilarW@aol.com Great Indexes for Great Books ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:20:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gravitz Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index In-Reply-To: <380F1B43.A67D6371@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rob, I'd be interested in your survey also. How about putting it on the list instead? Ina Gravitz (Soon to go from part-time to full-time indexing.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:34:43 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert-- In a message dated 99-10-21 13:39:15 EDT, you write: << We do the best we can. >> This lyric from Bernstein's Candide needs to be in our heads all the time. Hope you can "hear" the music there too. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:18:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as they > go. By this I mean, those who enter new locators in the same record as the > previous ones. I tend to do this so I can get a better picture of the index > as it is constructed and so I don't have to spend time at the end adjusting > 4 subheads that mean the same thing, but are worded slightly different from > each other > e.g. > Counterintelligence > during WWII > WWII examples > in Japan, during WWII > > You get the idea. So I might take the first one and use it all the time. > Cindex allows you to type the first few letters of an entry and it will > "jump" to it, allowing you to select it easily and add a new locator to the > ones already listed. I find that the improved consistency is worth not being > able to do a page order sort. SKY Index's autofill feature is great for this sort of thing. When you start typing the first few letters of a heading or subheading, the autofill fills in the most likely candidate from the entries you've already typed. For instance, in the example above, if you typed W, it would fill in "WII examples" -- saving you 12 keystrokes. If you had several options beginning with a capital W, it would fill in the most commonly/recently used one, changing as you add letters. In the example above, say you also had a subheading "Western." As soon as you typed "W" you would get "WWII examples" because you've used it more often. However, once you type the "e" you would get "Western." (You can update your list, too, to reflect changes you've made in phrasing or spelling -- great if you've caught a typo.) Once you have the term you want to use, you press enter and add your page number. It's possible to enter a complete record -- heading, subheading, and locator -- using as few as 6-10 keystrokes, without having to remember a lot of macros or acronyms (though you can have those, too.) And since each locator is entered as a separate record, you can print the index in page number order or sorted (alphabetical) order. I find the autofill feature cuts down on my entry time considerably, because I use a lot fewer keystrokes. It also cuts the editing time, since I'm more likely to use terms consistently. It's especially good for avoiding entries like "cat" and "cats," though it doesn't eliminate duplications like "dogs and" and "and dogs." However, if I enter "and dogs" the view window hops to "cats, and dogs," and I can see that I used "dogs and" and change my new entry to match. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:39:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Conolly wrote: > This thread is great and it has really gotten me thinking. I'm wondering if > anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols? Your symbols make sense, Dan, and would be good if someone besides the indexer is doing the data entry. (I'm assuming you meant these symbols to be used for editing a printed draft of the index, though some would also work for initial data entry.) However, if one is doing one's own editing, those symbols/codes may be overkill -- too time consuming. I usually do most of my editing on the screen. If I'm doing groups that are too big to contain on the screen, I may print the group out, but other than that, my first editing passes -- for groups, for inconsistencies, for "tightening" (eliminating subentries when there are too few to warrant the space, etc.), for locator errors (15-18, 17), and so on -- are done on screen. Then I do a printout and do a final editing pass, looking for anything I missed. Generally, I just highlight the errors or make a quick note; since I've already done the first passes on screen, this pass rarely turns up anything structural, such as the need for a double-post. If it does, I'll usually enter it immediately, while I'm thinking of it. Then I fix anything I've found and print out a final draft for proofreading. I also try to get someone else to proofread the index at this stage; sometimes, they will spot one or two things that I may have missed through being too close to the index. ( If I can't do that, I try to have enough time to go away from it and come back fresh.) Having a second, fresher pair of eyes look at an index can often eliminate minor errors and hence some of those "How did I let that mistake go through" self-recriminations. With email, the "other pair of eyes" doesn't even have to be local; one could team up with an indexing friend from anywhere, as long as s/he is willing to trade proofreading. Of course, ample time must be allotted for this, but it quells a lot of the qualms, and makes for a better product. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:50:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Beating me up Rachel, Sounds like you're saying part of the problem was you just didn't think of the missing cross-reference. My suggestion is to look at the indexes in other books on that subject. When you're about done with the index, go to the library and scan the indexes of a few other relevant books and see what another indexer did. You might see an entry or cross ref you didn't think of. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:01:10 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel, Most of the comments so far seem to apply to interim screens per se, i.e., not a hardcopy draft. My "last" task is to edit from a printout where screen misreads and omissions usually jump out for subsequent fixing. Re your abuse example, I'm not certain that it is really an error, unless you consider an omission one and the same. Yes, yes, errors of commision and omission. However, the first is more obvious and the second could be obsessively endless. Just do it as best you can and move on. Diane in Kazoo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:13:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Beating me up/X-refs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking about cross references.... Sometimes it helps to list the cross references on the screen and/or even print them out. Macrex will list them for you. If your software doesn't, just group on "see" and you'll have them right there. It will give you a sense of what type of roadmap you've created, and might spur some good thinking about additional ones you could add. I do that when in doubt. As for marking printouts and/or proof -- I don't use full words either, but have my own shorthand. An X in a circle tells me to make an x-ref. I mark an entry or a term with F2 if I want to create a main head from a subhead (F2 is the Macrex function key that does this), or F3 if I want to flip an entry (ditto). Works for me. Always work in red pen -- can see it better than blue or black. I find colored markers distract, but I'm sure everybody has their own way. Work methods are such an individual thing! ;-) Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:24:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Diane wrote: << Yes, yes, errors of commision and omission. However, the first is more obvious and the second could be obsessively endless. Just do it as best you can and move on.>> How true. We can be our own worst enemies. Bob's excellent posting has reminded us that we are working in "fastidious mode" against Amazing Time Constraints on difficult material. All we can do is the best we can. After that, we have to be good to ourselves. Where? ... in what other profession? .... do you see such a push for perfection?!! Programmers have to de-bug. They get to remove the errors and hold their heads up high while doing it. No shame in that part of their work. Software gets tested and things still show up in beta testing. Authors get edited. And edited, and edited. No guilty feelings there. It is expected that *their* creative product will undergo further polishing. We are so incredibly hard on ourselves! What we need is what a friends of mine has. It's a rubber glove stuffed so it looks lifelike, with a short broomhandle stub attached. And when she needs it, when feeing "down", she can reach for it and gives herself a well-deserved pat on the back for achieving a difficult task or for work well done. We hard work, we submit intellectual masterpieces, done in difficult circumstances, for not-such-good pay many times. Our product is needed and used. This is good, and we should feel better about our work. Damn we're good! Here's to self-acceptance!! Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:37:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: automated vs manual indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dwight Walker wrote: > > Just because you are indexing at a file level does not stop the usefulness > of the index created via a search engine. There must be a misunderstanding: I am *advocating* embedding index entries in the source files to which they refer. My statement is that "keywords" META tags can be associated only with files, and that they cannot be used to provide access to specific locations *within* those files. As for usefulness of a site search engine, consider two *identical* lists of index entries--one in which you can see all the words and phrases (as in the back of a book), and another in which you have to *guess* which words and phrases might be included (as in a keyword-based search engine). I don't see how the former can fail to be more useful than the latter. > > I can't see how an HTML Indexer generated index can handle over a few 1000 > entries. After that it will fail due to the labour required to keep it up > to date. ... Back of book style Web indexing ... does not cater for very > large sites. It may do for small sites or intranets but you cannot handle > very large sites with back of book style Web indexes. That simply is not the experience of the many people using HTML Indexer, but it's really not a question of which tool to use. (Sure I'm biased, but I think the issues are larger than that.) Sure, it requires effort to create the index for a large web site, just as it requires effort to index a large book or a volume of books. I thought that was the point of the discussion: helping web site managers see the value a back-of-the-book index brings to a web site, whether as an alternative or a supplement to a site search engine. It is in the maintenance phase that you see the real advantage of embedded index entries. Maintaining the site index involves (a) creating entries for new or changed information, (b) resolving any stylistic inconsistencies between new and existing entries, and (c) rebuilding the index (in HTML Indexer, a single mouse click). The other point of my message was that I believe good indexers are the people best suited to creating *and* maintaining those indexes--and that they can make a good living at it. Whether they are full-time indexing consultants, staffers with other additional responsibilities, or librarians who understand the principles of information access seems of little importance. > > I find most Australian companies tend to shaft you after about a year to > save the cost of consultants. You have to have much more than a good > relationship to keep them from doing that. As Glenda suggested in a follow-up message, that may bespeak a need for better marketing skills. As a consultant, I've always found those client relationships to be my most importnat business asset. I refer not simply to good *personal* relationships with your clients, but those in which you demonstrate that your consulting fees are a fair price for the value your work adds. > > Meta data scales. Back of book style Web indexing does not. It's a nonsensical comparison. META tags are a method of *embedding* keywords (albeit for files only). Back-of-the-book indexes are a method of *presenting* keywords (for files, named anchors, and any other valid URL). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:07:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The problem I find with an entry "See also specific " is that the reader > may have no idea what these names might be. In the example entry "Australia, see > also names of specific towns and states," I would have no idea what the states > are, and know only a couple of towns. Ideally, there might be an entry "States, > listed,".but that would work only if the text actually contained such a list. Agreed. But whereas for Australia the list of states might be manageable, the list of towns and cities might well not be. And can you imagine a cross-reference from "United States" to all fifty states -- by name?! If the "specific names" can be named in a list of manageable proportions, it makes sense to do so. Otherwise, one must take into account both the audience and the length of the index. For a book on social services in the United States, one might well have an entry "United States" with subheadings for population, racial distribution, poverty level, etc. One would probably also have similar subheads for many if not all states. Since the majority of the audience is likely to be familiar with the names of the states, it makes more sense to have a see-also cross-reference from "United States" to "specific states." One ought also to consider how easy it is to find the information concerning those "specific ". Any good atlas ought to give the reader the names of the states in the US, Australia, or other countries. It's when the "specific " are more obscure -- French generals during the First World War, for instance -- that these generic cross-references become more problematic: because the reader is unlikely to know or be able to easily find the names, it's more important that they be included in the cross-reference. But again, index length and audience affect that determination as well. Ultimately, it comes down to the indexer's judgement of what will serve this particular book the best. No index is without compromises -- in content, speed of completion, length, exhaustivity, or some other aspect. That's one of the reasons (to pull in another thread) I don't see automated indexing approaching the quality of human indexing until and unless true AI becomes a reality. In addition to the difficulties arising from contextual meaning* and implied concept**, computers simply cannot make the judgement calls on what material to include and exclude, and how, because they lack the reasoning ability needed to make those judgements. A computer can, as we've discussed before, produce a compendium. Programs could even be written to provide cross-references to certain synonyms. But the computer can't decide that this book needs a generic cross-reference, while that one really needs to have the cross-referenced terms spelled out (even though the main heading is identical in both books), because the program can't be written to handle that degree of analysis, not only of text but of audience and publisher needs. Nor can it be written to judge whether a reference is passing or really indexable, or to grasp the index structure and hierarchies implied by the text. That kind of judgement comes from experience, both lived and read. * contextual meaning: e.g., musical keys vs. house & car keys vs. figurative keys to solving a puzzle vs. islands south of Florida vs. the code for decrypting encrypted information ** implied concept: a concept which is discussed in the text without using the word or term which usually identifies it. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:12:25 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yup, Rachel, we all make mistakes. Just do your best. I do gather each subject main heading phrase using group mode in Macrex--to double-check that all the flipped entries are equivalent. It doesn't take all that long. I also look carefully at each line of the index and just think about it--does it look right, should these pages be posted anywhere else, are there any missing cross-references...I know what you mean about not having much time, though, and you just do have to leave enough. It's very hard to speed up an edit, and very hard for me to predict exactly how long it's going to take. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:58:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: <0.594db916.2541db9e@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: >After that, we have to be good to ourselves. Where? ... in what other >profession? .... do you see such a push for perfection?!! Programmers have >to de-bug. They get to remove the errors and hold their heads up high while >doing it. No shame in that part of their work. Software gets tested and >things still show up in beta testing. Authors get edited. And edited, and >edited. No guilty feelings there. It is expected that *their* creative >product will undergo further polishing. And when one is developing black and white photographs, (which I did on my vacation a week or two ago) one has the opportunity to further change that final picture either by using chemicals to change the color of the photograph or a brush to cover up the so-called "rough" spots. >We hard work, we submit intellectual masterpieces, done in difficult >circumstances, for not-such-good pay many times. Our product is needed and >used. This is good, and we should feel better about our work. Damn we're >good! Here's to self-acceptance!! > >Janet Perlman >SOUTHWEST INDEXING Thanks for the moral booster. When one is in the midst of meeting deadlines, it's frequently difficult to remember this. Willa (trying to figure out how I can set up a dark room for developing my own black and white photos....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 13:07:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeanne Moody Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think we indexers tend to be perfectionists. We agonize over details that others don't notice. To a certain extent that is what makes us good indexers. A small error here and there may affect the usability of the index for the few readers who happen to want information on that narrow topic but not for all readers of the book. It seems to me that I have found some "error" in 95% of the published indexes that I have done. Some, admittedly, were things I didn't catch in the editing process; some were made after the index left my hands. Some weren't really errors so much as astonishment that I had made a decision to do A instead of B and wondering whatever had possessed me! In one memorable case, I couldn't locate a topic I knew was in the book. When I finally found it in the index, it was in a logical place that would make more sense to the intended audience than to me, the layman. If doing it again, there would have been a double posting. Most errors in published indexes are the work of indexing gremlins who sneak in and do naughty things to perfectly good indexes en route from indexer to publisher. Jeanne Moody *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 10/21/99 at 1:01 PM Rachel Rice wrote: >Hi all, > >I just received my copy of a big job I did in August (for those of you who >were in on it, the suicide book with the horrible names index that was as >long as the subject index). When I sent in the index I felt really proud of >it, and thought I had a done a really good job. Well, I just looked it over >and saw at least 4 outright errors (what I consider errors) and several >things that aren't really errors but that could have been done much better. >I spent a lot of time on the edit phase, and I even waited a day and then >gave it a final going over, yet still I made errors. I did get good >feedback from the editor, who I guess didn't notice the errors. > >How do you all double check yourselves? How do you avoid blatant errors? >For example, I cross referenced "abuse" to two other locations, but didn't >cross reference it to another that it should have crossed to. How could I >have missed that? If I had gathered all the entries for abuse I would have >caught it, but I guess I didn't think of doing that. Should I gather every >key word even if I think I don't have any other entries, or that I got them >all? What if I don't have much time? That takes a lot of time. What can I >do to avoid similar errors in future? This really makes me mad at myself. I >really do think I'm a good indexer, but still make mistakes. Not that I >expect every index to be perfect, but those errors shold not have been >there. Any tips for this problem are greatly appreciated. > >Rae > > Rachel Rice > Directions Unlimited Desktop Services > Indexing, editing, proofreading > http://homepages.together.net/~racric > racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:11:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Following up, after turning in an index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------314DD3CC5AD63A2DAFA8D4DC" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------314DD3CC5AD63A2DAFA8D4DC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: I have attached what I hope to use as my indexing survey. Please e-mail all comments off-list. You are more than welcome to use this survey in any way you want. Hope this helps everyone. Rob -- Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAClBsAHtAC0AIAAPjAA ABAAGQBkAAAAGQAAAOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAACXBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgAAACMB//8SAAAAAAAAAB4AUgBhAHoAbwBy AHMAaABhAHIAcAAgAEMAbwBtAG0AdQBuAGkAYwBhAHQAaQBvAG4AcwAsACAASQBuAGMAAAAA AAAADwBSAG8AYgBlAHIAdAAgAEEALgAgAFMAYQBpAGcAaAAPAFIAbwBiAGUAcgB0ACAAQQAu ACAAUwBhAGkAZwBoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --------------314DD3CC5AD63A2DAFA8D4DC-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:23:15 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names of numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I could have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got to thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name as a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the individual names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint). Any opinions on this? TIA. Nina Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Jermey To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:40 PM Subject: indexing under broader topics >If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however >broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone >looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South >Wales, and about Sydney. > >This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South >Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and >territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be >mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general >reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg, >New South Wales'. Is there a better way? > >I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where I >really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped >under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making 'spiral >pasta cheese'). > >(This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National Park, >but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under >'Bobbin Head'). > >Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:48:25 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <381084A1.130FDC7C@brown-inc.com> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > There must be a misunderstanding There's plenty of scope for misunderstanding, so long as we continue to use the term "Web indexing" without spelling out what is meant by it. I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing: 1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites; 2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered throughout numerous files on that site; 3) indexing information contained within one HTML file. Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and "file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three? Other suggestions welcome! -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda: How about these definitions to refine yours: Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:36:42 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Collective Wisdom, Computer-book Division: I am indexing a 700-page book on creating 3D Games with a product called DirectX. Due today. The product has a C++ type of programming language, including objects, functions/methods, interfaces, structures, macros, etc. I've done this type of programming manual before, but my brain is fried after a solid week on the monster. Here's my question: I have a function, let's call it the ABC function, that is implemented by several interfaces. So I have these entries: ABC function AnotherSilly interface ObjectsStrided interface ZooHereInMyHouse interface OK, that's cool. I have another function, the XYZ function, that is implemented by only one interface. The entry I have now (beginning final edit) is: XYZ function OneLoneTransformationObject interface Do I have to make one single main entry like this: XYZ function, OneLoneTransformationObject interface, 56-63 ...that is, identifying the interface as well as the function? Or can I just say: XYZ function, 56-63 and leave it at that. The index is HUGE already, and many of the interfaces and the functions have VeryLongBiCapitalizedNames and they always wrap onto the next line in a 2-column index, making it very hard to read. I'd like to just put the function name. Thoughts? Ann Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:32:35 -0400 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's even worse than noted below. There are indexes on the web with links to pages on the web either on the same or different sites, but there are also indexes on the web that don't link. These are just web versions of printed indexes. Fran Lennie has suggested for this latter situation the term: web-mounted indexing. Dave Ream Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 44141-2939 Toll-free (NA) 888-838-1203 Local/Fax 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda Sutherland To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:48 PM Subject: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] > The message <381084A1.130FDC7C@brown-inc.com> > from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > > > There must be a misunderstanding > > > There's plenty of scope for misunderstanding, so long as we continue > to use the term "Web indexing" without spelling out what is meant by it. > > I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing: > > 1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites; > 2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered > throughout numerous files on that site; > 3) indexing information contained within one HTML file. > > > Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to > identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site > indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and > "file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella > term for all three? > > Other suggestions welcome! > > -- > Linda Sutherland > linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:51:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T., ABBA Index Services" Subject: Web indexing definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like these - they would be helpful to me. Ardith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert A. Saigh To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual = indexing] > Linda: >=20 > How about these definitions to refine yours: >=20 > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file >=20 > Rob >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:53:59 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, Why not? I don't like using only one single subheading after the main entry anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated to qualify the page locator. The word index, going back to its Latin root "indicare", means to indicate. A page locator indicates. It isn't always necessary "to inform" about the entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when there are many undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree, but that is the "rule" I go by. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:11:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: shortening an index Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recently I took Christin Keck up on her offer to pass on Maria Coughlin's list of measures for shortening an index. I've edited it and added to it and am passing it on for others to reorganize and add to and share in turn if they like. Shortening an Index Find out how much needs to be cut and ask about the possibility of getting more pages, and then: Suggest using smaller type Suggest using shorter indents Suggest using a different number of columns -- perhaps Suggest eliminating any extra space between letter groups Suggest eliminating header letters Suggest compressing (eliding) page ranges Suggest using run-in style and then: Verify use of _See_ refs instead of extensive double-posting Shorten wordings in headings Eliminate subsubheadings Eliminate qualifiers of lesser importance Eliminate subheadings of lesser importance Eliminate cross-references of lesser importance (including acronyms) and then: Suggest adding any unimplemented turnover line hyphenation Suggest compressing (condensing) the type in entries that barely turn over All the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: comparing documents In-Reply-To: <199910210113.VAA04200@superaje.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:12 PM 10/20/99 -0400, Keith McQuay wrote: > >When indexing in Word I am afraid I might accidentally insert a character or >zap a paragraph. At the end of a job I turn on track changes and do a quick >page down to check for accidents. Does anyone use compare document to do >this? > >I've tried saving the starting version under a different filename, then >comparing the indexed version, and either it's not working or I'm not seeing >what it is showing me. Also, for one file I got the message that the >document I'm comparing to already has changes do I want to continue. Don't >know what that means either... > >I seem to remember compare document taking you to each change in the >document from beginning to end but maybe that was WordPerfect. > >Any advice? Keith, if you don't mind not seeing special formatting like italics in your compared documents you could save ASCII versions of your old and new Word versions, and then go to DOS and compare the files by first creating a compare file, which will list the differences between the files, with the "fc" command, as in fc oldfile newfile > compfile and by then reading the compare file in your word processor. Users of indexing programs can compare their old and current files in the same way of course. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and interfaces and index space In-Reply-To: <0.6abd5f2.25421ad7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good. There's a consensus from you, me, and Dick. Yay! Thanks much. Ann > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf > Of JPerlman@AOL.COM > Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 3:54 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Need help: C++ functions and > interfaces and index space > > > Ann, > > Why not? I don't like using only one single > subheading after the main entry > anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated > to qualify the page locator. > > The word index, going back to its Latin root > "indicare", means to indicate. > A page locator indicates. It isn't always > necessary "to inform" about the > entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when > there are many > undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree, > but that is the "rule" I go > by. > > Janet Perlman > SOUTHWEST INDEXING > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:43:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names of > numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi > Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I could > have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of > Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got to > thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name as > a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the > individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am > limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the individual > names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint). In general, I think that if people are important enough to index, they ought to have their own entry. Don't "hide" them in a generic entry where many readers will miss them. The only time I've violated this principle is when the publisher preferred the individuals under a generic term ("artists" or "scientists"), and that was for a children's book index where the entire index fit on a two-page spread, and so could be seen in its entirety. I appreciate your desire to gather these people together by occupation, but take another look and make sure you aren't over-indexing. You need to be sure that including the topics "popes" and "rabbis" is relevant in the context of the book. In this case, I'd be inclined to index the individuals under their own names, and cross-reference (generically or specifically) from rabbis and from popes. Or even leave out "rabbis" and "popes" as entries entirely, unless there is information about rabbis and/or popes in general. Of course, it depends on your audience, but if I as a reader look up "rabbis," I don't necessarily expect a list of them, just information about rabbis as a group. And if I need information about a specific person -- very likely to happen, especially in the case of well-known or historical figures -- I am *not* likely to figure out that I have to look under a generic term to find it. Incidentally, I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone? JMHO, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:25:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Small Claims Court, again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This posting should be of interest to those subscribers in the five boroughs of the City of New York. The rest of you can delete this message now. I just returned from the Small Claims Court in Queens. I was there over a non-work related problem. It seems that the jurisdiction of Small Claims Courts in the City of New York has been narrowed and the fees have increased. Now, the Small Claims Courts in the City of New York can be used to sue defendants in the City of New York only. They can not be used against parties elsewhere in the state of New York. I am not sure what one does if one has a problem with somebody in the rest of New York State involving a small amount of money. I hate to think that the only option available is the Civil Court, which, in New York, is virtually impossible to navigate without a lawyer. The fees for using the Small Claims Courts are $10 for amounts under $1000 and $15 for amounts between $1000 and $3000. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:27:12 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <003001bf1cc4$5a74e040$0fb136cf@bna.com> from "David K. Ream" contains these words: > There are indexes on the web with links to pages on the web either on the > same or different sites, > but there are also indexes on the web that don't link. > These are just web versions of printed indexes. > Fran Lennie has suggested for this latter situation the term: web-mounted > indexing. I wouldn't have thought of these as Web indexes. Nor would I include printed indexes which direct the user to Web sites, but are not themselves on the Web. >From our - i.e. indexers' - point of view, the terms "Web index" and "Web indexing" have to be restricted to indexes on the Web which serve to locate information in other Web files. I say "have to", because those are the circumstances which require us to learn new skills and techniques, and/or adapt existing ones to the new environment. Without that requirement, there would be no point in distinguishing Web indexing from "traditional" indexing. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 23:27:25 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com> from "Robert A. Saigh" contains these words: > How about these definitions to refine yours: > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file I can certainly live with those if it turns out that the majority of indexers here prefer them, though honesty bids me say that I think my own suggested terms make the distinctions more immediately clear. But then I would think that, wouldn't I? :-) -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:36:27 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda Sutherland wrote: > > The message <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com> > from "Robert A. Saigh" contains these words: > > > How about these definitions to refine yours: > > > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file > > I can certainly live with those if it turns out that the majority of > indexers here prefer them, though honesty bids me say that I think my > own suggested terms make the distinctions more immediately clear. I'd suggest these: "web index" as a single index to the content of multiple web sites "web site index" or "site index" as a single index to the content of a single site Both are a kind of "HTML index," because HTML is the medium in which you're working. (Also, HTML Help and JavaHelp are both HTML-based, but indexes are presented in a different manner.) I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 20:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: dropping single subheadings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:36 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ann wrote: > >. . . >I have another function, the XYZ function, that is >implemented by only one interface. The entry I have now >(beginning final edit) is: > >XYZ function > OneLoneTransformationObject interface > >Do I have to make one single main entry like this: > >XYZ function, OneLoneTransformationObject interface, 56-63 > >...that is, identifying the interface as well as the >function? > >Or can I just say: > >XYZ function, 56-63 > >and leave it at that. > >The index is HUGE already, and many of the interfaces and >the functions have VeryLongBiCapitalizedNames and they >always wrap onto the next line in a 2-column index, making >it very hard to read. I'd like to just put the function >name. > >Thoughts? At 03:53 PM 10/22/99 EDT, Janet replied: > >Ann, > >Why not? I don't like using only one single subheading after the main entry >anyway. Many or none, IMHO. We aren't obligated to qualify the page locator. > >The word index, going back to its Latin root "indicare", means to indicate. >A page locator indicates. It isn't always necessary "to inform" about the >entry. Sometimes it is nice to do so, as when there are many >undifferentiated locators. Some might disagree, but that is the "rule" I go >by. And at 04:22 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Ann wrote: >Good. There's a consensus from you, me, and Dick. Yay! > >Thanks much. Uh oh! Sounds like I'm going to be a bit of "a stick in the mud"! (I wonder where this funny expression comes from?) Oh well! No harm intended! ;-) Ann, since the function in this case has only one implementation it does not _have_ to be identified, but if space is not much of an issue in this index since it's already so huge I'd keep the single subheading in order to maintain the form for such entries; and again, since this function has only one implementation, I'd reformat the subheading in parentheses as a gloss or qualifier. Unless there are many such cases, dropping a few subheadings like this won't do much to improve readability in this index, whereas maintaining the form has some intrinsic value and might help the reader a little. Still, in this case it really doesn't matter very much. Janet, I am one who does disagree with the "rule" of dropping single subheadings. Surely we need not to overinform or "rewrite the book" in long, wordy subheadings, but if a subheading is a good one -- clear and concise, etc. -- it serves to give the reader a better idea of what its locator indicates regardless of whether it stands alone or with other subheadings. Dropping it could easily lead a reader to look for something that keeping it in would exclude. In saying this I know I'm not saying anying at all new. I'm bringing it up because I've heard some of us say, as you are saying, that they drop single subheadings as a matter of style or personal preference, and I want to query this sense of style on behalf of -- you guessed it! -- our dear ole reader. So, I'd like to know, where does this style come from? Does anybody know? I didn't learn it during my training. Did I overlook it somewhere in the standard books on indexing? And what about this style? Does it best serve the reader, or not? Cheers!, and all the best, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 00:56:56 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit << > Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index copy to > the printed page if both are in exactly the same order.... << This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as they go. >> Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?) It also has a new feature: lists of entries and commands in reverse order. To tell you the truth, I don't usually do an exact page check, but it does come in handy in certain situations. Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 01:02:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan wrote: << I'm wondering if anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols? >> I have little abbreviations like the ones you suggested--they've just developed intuitively; I haven't needed to make a list of them or anything. For what it's worth, I'll drag some out of my subconscious. These appear right in the relevant entries, coded to neither print nor affect alphabetization in Macrex. I do delete them before finishing, but if I missed any, they would disappear when I put the index into my word processor. rew: reword (sometimes appears with a list of possible phrases) dp: double-post mr: more (get more page references) mrfr: more from (look under a specific heading and check its page refs to see if any belong here. sometimes I just copy the string of page refs into the note area) mrbfr: more before (I started picking it up at this page number--look at all the pages before that) cb: checkback (scan the book looking for this entry) bd: break down (make subheads for a main head) (although I try to get myself to do this as I go) vs: versus (compare this heading to another similar one) Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 19:58:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tree Bressen Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] In-Reply-To: <1999102219482572477@zetnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Linda wrote: >I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing: > >1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites; >2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered >throughout numerous files on that site; >3) indexing information contained within one HTML file. > >Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to >identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site >indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and >"file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella >term for all three? Of the suggestions i've read so far, this one sounds the clearest to me. Cheers, --Tree ------------------------------------------------------ Tree Bressen 2244 Alder St. Eugene, OR 97405 (541) 343-5023 tree@ic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 07:34:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: beating me up In-Reply-To: <0.6764afa4.25429a18@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A >Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number >order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?) Hi All: Yes, Cindex can do a page order sort easily. Willa (looking forward to playing contra dance music for many hours today...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:52:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 12:56 AM Subject: Re: beating me up > << > Primarily it's a matter of finding it easier to compare the index copy to > > the printed page if both are in exactly the same order.... > > << This is not possible for those indexers who tend to build the index as they > go. >> > > Macrex can take an index built-as-you-go and transfer it into page number > order and back very easily. (I thought Cindex and Sky could do this too?) It > also has a new feature: lists of entries and commands in reverse order. > > To tell you the truth, I don't usually do an exact page check, but it does > come in handy in certain situations. > > Do Mi Stauber > Yes, it can. Sorry about giving the impression that it can't. My fault./Dan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 16:15:27 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file. I can't think of an example where the index is in one file and the indexed material in another. But I've certainly come across files which include a list of internal links, allowing you to jump to a specific section of the file. Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents list, certainly. But regardless of what it looks like, if it helps the user to find the sought information quickly, shouldn't it count as an index? -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:10:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Ellen Brick Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) -----Original Message----- From: Dan Connolly To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 9:46 PM Subject: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) >This thread is great and it has really gotten me thinking. I'm wondering if >anyone has developed standard index editing markup symbols? > >For instance, Rachel indicates that she circles things to pull out to main >headings. What are some of the other things that need to be indicated on >index drafts. Here are some ideas and possible symbols: > >1. subs that need to be made main heads [ M ] >2. main heads that need to be made subs of another main head > S-mainheadname ] >3. cross-refs needed [ x-refs ] >4. double posts needed (via inversion/via rewording) [ DP-inv ] [ DP-rew ] >5. an entry that needs more locators (gathering related topics) [ Find >(topicname) ] >6. main entry that needs subs [ S ] > >I'm not sure what else, but there must be more. There are the standard >editing symbols for spelling errors and the like also. > >I like to have a really detailed, organized system for everything or I can't >remember to do it. I mean, if I don't write it on a list, it ain't gettin' >done! Ask the dog who ate hamburger and rice for almost a week because I >kept forgeting to buy dog food! > >Dan > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Rachel Rice >To: >Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 5:42 PM >Subject: Re: beating me up > >> >> Next pass I read all the entries looking for consolidations or where I >need >> to expand, or whatever else I see. I make notes of things to recheck or >> double check in the margin, circle things to pull out (I shoulda circled >> abuse!), connect things that need to be consolidated, stuff like that. I >> check that I double posted where I should have, made main entries of subs >> wehre necessary, stuff like that. I have a whole ton of personal abbrevs >> and symbols, sort of like editor's symbols, but all my own. >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:04:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sloan Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: <1999102219482572477@zetnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My views on the two disputed programs for web indexing are simply a matter of what is usefule to a spacific project. If I have 12 to 100 long chapters of an online book to index I will probably use HTML Indexer. If I have documents of 1-2 pages in length, then I would use a WEBIX type of tool. If I have 1,000 to 10,000 or more short documents then I would go to meta tags. It is not a matter of which is better but which is the most useful for the job. I admire Dwight for pioneering web indexing in all its forms and David for providing a useful tool for indexing long documents. I would hope both could live peacefully with each other. I would hope I could master at least 2 of not all 3 of these tools to be a Grand Master web indexer! Linda Kenny Sloan ************************************************************************ Information Universe Lksloan@informationuniverse.com Improving customer service through better information access for aerospace and astronomy publications both online and print. http://informationuniverse.com ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:47:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Linda Sloan wrote: > > My views on the two disputed programs ... I have to point out: I didn't even know the two programs were *in* dispute. It's certainly not my intention to put them at odds. As Ms. Sloan says, a good indexer may want to have multiple tools in his or her toolbox. Familiarize yourself with the strengths and weaknesses of the available tools, so you can choose the right one for each job. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 09:55:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda Sutherland wrote: > > The message <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com> > from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > > > I can't think of a useful example of indexing within a single file. > > I can't think of an example where the index is in one file and the > indexed material in another. Most web-site indexes are set up that way. Come to think of it, most large books are probably set up that way, too. (I'm speaking of books created in Word or Framemaker, for example.) > > ... I've certainly come across files > which include a list of internal links, allowing you to jump to a > specific section of the file. > > Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to > include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents > list, certainly. Yes, those are more like chapter-level TOCs in a book. > But regardless of what it looks like, if it helps > the user to find the sought information quickly, shouldn't it count > as an index? I tend to think of an index using a more narrow definition, but I've been focused on back-of-the-book indexing (as a tech writer and help developer) for over a decade. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:29:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: <3811E6B3.D3BA4D65@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >As Ms. Sloan says, a good indexer may want to have multiple tools >in his or her toolbox. Familiarize yourself with the strengths and >weaknesses of the available tools, so you can choose the right one >for each job. Hi All: Yet one one more thing for us to keep on top of (not good English, but...). Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference? Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:35:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: web indexing programs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: Would there be any chance of having these indexing programs demonstrated at a future ASI conference? That might be a good opportunity to educate a lot of indexers at one time in a non-competitive environment (hopefully). Willa (who apologizes if this post went to the list twice but I'm still learning to use Eudora 4.2 with two separate email boxes.....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 14:53:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics In-Reply-To: <199910222045.QAA26293@lycanthrope.crosslink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:43 PM 10/22/99 -0400, Kara wrote: > >. . . I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even >when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I >fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically >and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that >occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We >can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our >carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone? "gatheritis" (if not "gatherrhea") ;-) Michael ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 13:17:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing software MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Willa MacAllen wrote: > > Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these > programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference? I hope to attend an ASI conference in the future. Until I can, we can only support our customers when they demonstrate HTML Indexer in various venues, as several have done already. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 15:47:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: <381217C5.23689F8C@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:17 PM -0700 10/23/99, David M. Brown wrote: >Willa MacAllen wrote: >> >> Would there be any chance of having demonstrations in each of these >> programs in a noncompetitive setting at a future ASI conference? > >I hope to attend an ASI conference in the future. Until I can, we >can only support our customers when they demonstrate HTML Indexer in >various venues, as several have done already. > >--David > Kevin Broccoli demonstrated HTML Indexer during the Web Indexing workshop in conjunction with the ASI annual meeting in Indianapolis. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:20:03 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] In-Reply-To: <3810B8F7.5DDECE35@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Robert A. Saigh > Linda: > > How about these definitions to refine yours: > > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file > > Rob Or, looking at it from another angle: global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file Of course, any level may include the one(s) below it. Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:20:08 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] In-Reply-To: <3811030B.E533248B@brown-inc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And also programs can 'index' a website by putting all of the words in a searchable system. I read recently in a mini-article called 'Helping your reader locate key information' (and I must write in protest) 'Indexing a web site means preparing it for an internal search engine - quite different from the index you find in the back of a book.' Glenda > > > How about these definitions to refine yours: > > > > > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > > > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > > > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 17:29:53 -0400 Reply-To: "David K. Ream" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David K. Ream" Organization: Leverage Technologies, Inc. Subject: Re: web indexing programs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leverage Technologies will be demonstrating HTML/Prep at the ASI conference in May. This will be the new Windows version. It works with files from Cindex, Macrex, or any word processor or editor. Dave Ream Leverage Technologies, Inc. Cleveland, OH 44141-2939 Toll-free (NA) 888-838-1203 Local/Fax 440-838-1203 E-mail: DaveReam@LevTechInc.com Web: http://www.LevTechInc.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Willa MacAllen To: Sent: Saturday, October 23, 1999 4:35 PM Subject: web indexing programs > Hi All: > > Would there be any chance of having these indexing programs demonstrated at > a future ASI conference? That might be a good opportunity to educate a lot > of indexers at one time in a non-competitive environment (hopefully). > > Willa (who apologizes if this post went to the list twice but I'm still > learning to use Eudora 4.2 with two separate email boxes.....) > > Willa MacAllen > Information Organizer > MacAllen's Information Services > Boston > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:41:42 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3811E871.3C4363A5@brown-inc.com> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > Most web-site indexes are set up that way. Most web sites consist of more than one file, though, and therefore fit level 2 in my suggested categorisation. Indexing of a single file is level 3. I don't know of a practical example of a single file with an index devoted solely to that file's contents but located in a separate file. It's within the bounds of possibility though, that such a construction may exist, or will exist in future. Web publishing is still in its infancy, after all! > > Or am I stretching the definition of "index" too far by seeking to > > include these? In some cases, the list can look more like a contents > > list, certainly. > Yes, those are more like chapter-level TOCs in a book. > I tend to think of an index using a more narrow definition, but I've been focused on back-of-the-book indexing (as a tech writer and help developer) for over a decade. Dwight made a point to the effect that Web indexing requires different thinking. I'm leaning towards the idea that a blurring of the distinction between index and TOC may be part of that new approach. Not that I think the two will become identical, just that it may be more useful to regard them as lying at opposite extremes of a spectrum, rather than as two totally disparate concepts. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 01:20:34 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <000101bf1d9c$5ed53d00$bdcf23cb@pentium> from Jon & Glenda contains these words: > Or, looking at it from another angle: > global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites > local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site > Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file Yes - those are neater than mine, but still express the differences clearly. I'm tempted to switch my vote, but shall wait to see if any other suggestions are offered. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Readers may not know the names before they read the book, but what if they want to find information on a certain rabbi or pope later? Certainly they would look under the name. I would list under the name first. There may be some contexts where *also* listing names under rabbi or pope would be called for, but most of the time readers would be looking for information on the *topic* of rabbis or popes under those headings, not the names of individuals. Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina Forrest To: Sent: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:23 PM Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics > On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names of > numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi > Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I could > have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of > Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got to > thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name as > a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the > individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am > limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the individual > names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint). > > Any opinions on this? > > TIA. Nina > > Nina Forrest > Looking Up Indexing Service > e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Jermey > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 10:40 PM > Subject: indexing under broader topics > > > >If you are indexing a book about places, how do you ensure that however > >broadly a person searches they find what they need. For example, if someone > >looks up Australia, they should be able to find information about New South > >Wales, and about Sydney. > > > >This can be done, say, with a reference 'Australia, see also New South > >Wales'. The reference gets a bit longer when you include all the states and > >territories, and what about every individual city and town that could be > >mentioned. It becomes impossible. An alternative is to add a general > >reference, eg, 'Australia, see also names of specific towns and states, eg, > >New South Wales'. Is there a better way? > > > >I find a similar problem with other types of texts, eg, cookbooks, where I > >really think fettucini, macaroni and spaghetti dishes should be grouped > >under pasta (if I run out of macaroni I have no objection to making 'spiral > >pasta cheese'). > > > >(This question is prompted by me looking up Ku-ring-gai Chase National > Park, > >but not finding info I knew was there, because it was indexed only under > >'Bobbin Head'). > > > >Glenda. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 20:35:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >Kevin Broccoli demonstrated HTML Indexer during the Web Indexing >workshop in conjunction with the ASI annual meeting in Indianapolis. Hi All: I know that, since I was in the workshop on web indexing, which was wonderful, btw. I was just thinking that since the terminology and technology for indexing the web has changed within a relatively short period of time that providing a comparison of the indexing tools that are currently available would be helpful for those of us who might eventually want to purchase those tools. I do realize that vendors would have to travel to make this happen. I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did in Indianapolis on indexing the web was wonderful. I'd just like to see issues like this expanded as much as possible. It's the only way that some of us will be able to observe all the technologies that are in the market. Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 22:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Lane Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991023202602.0096eb30@mail.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5849926==_.ALT" --=====================_5849926==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote: >I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did in Indianapolis on indexing >the web was wonderful. . . And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate: Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop. Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-) --=====================_5849926==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote:

I thought the workshop that Marilyn/Kevin did in Indianapolis on indexing
the web was wonderful. . .


And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate:
Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop. 

Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-)

--=====================_5849926==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 23:45:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Indexers, This may be a totally naive question but I have a future project coming up for which we are considering putting 50 years of a quarterly journal on a CD. We would then like to have a comprehensive master index that you would search, click on a page reference, and be taken immediately to that page in that particular issue. If we html-coded the entries on the pages it would be a massive effort. A concordance might be useful as a starting point if we could then edit it. Is this pretty much the same thing we are discussing, but on a CD instead of out on the Internet? Is there software that would facilitate this? And, oh yes I should mention, that this is for a hobby group and would be a labor of love as a way of preserving the society's publications and making them accessible. In other words, a totally volunteer, not-for-pay project. I could get some help from other members, and I think there are a few that have the right mindset for indexing decisions, but not very many. And the journal was 16-32 pages in the early years, 48 pages for a long time, and has been 64 pages for a number of years. The page counts are per quarter, not annually. I must be nuts, right? I should stick to my paid work on business textbooks and software tutorials, right? Bill Lee Cincinnati, Ohio ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 00:59:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Blee811@AOL.COM wrote: > > ... we are considering putting 50 years of a quarterly journal on a CD. > We would then like to have a comprehensive master index that you would > search, click on a page reference, and be taken immediately to that page in > that particular issue. > > If we html-coded the entries on the pages it would be a massive effort. A > concordance might be useful as a starting point if we could then edit it. You don't mention whether the journals are coded in HTML (rather than some other format, such as PDF). If they are, read on. * If you want an index, you can use HTML Indexer to create it. (You're right--it's the same on a CD-ROM as on a web site.) * If you choose to do a simple concordance, you might want to look at a piece of shareware called (sadly) WWWIndexWizard. I don't remember the URL--it's been about a year since I looked at it--but the usual commercial web sites (Yahoo, AltaVista, and the like) should turn it up. I'm sure that's how I found it. Good luck! --David P.S. You're not nuts. :) I bet most of us have done a bit of "pro bono" work for the groups and causes we believe in. ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:34:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Web indexing software In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991023224957.0098e9a0@digital.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:54 PM 10/23/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 08:35 PM 10/23/99 -0700, Willa wrote: > > >And let's not forget the third member of the stellar triumvirate: >Gerry van Ravenswaay. It was a Marilyn/Kevin/Gerry workshop. > >Karen Lane, workshop assistant :-) Sorry about that, Karen. I should have included everyone who was involved with the program, especially since I was in the room with you all all day. It was a wonderful program, as should have been evident by the number of folks in the room that day. Willa (who just saw a rather depressing movie last nite....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:12:00 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Web indexing--What I'm looking for MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/99 4:04:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dmbrown@BROWN-INC.COM writes: << P.S. You're not nuts. :) I bet most of us have done a bit of "pro bono" work for the groups and causes we believe in. >> ===>Thanks for the information, David. I'll look into the information you sent. The organization is a plant society and the project would really only serve the members, not a larger social issue. Still, it's something I'd like to get done because the finished project would be useful to me. Bill Lee ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:30:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tree: Wouldn't meta tagging also be seen as a type of indexing? Although it is either "all on one site" or "all on one page" indexing, it serves a different purpose than regular indexing. Max mdalry@sr66.com http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Tree Bressen To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 11:36 PM Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] >Hi, > >Linda wrote: >>I'd suggest that there are three distinct "levels" of Web indexing: >> >>1) indexing information scattered across numerous Web sites; >>2) indexing information contained within one Web site but scattered >>throughout numerous files on that site; >>3) indexing information contained within one HTML file. >> >>Could we perhaps agree on a terminology that would allow us to >>identify which of these is under discussion? Perhaps "multi-site >>indexing" for the first, "one-site indexing" for the second, and >>"file indexing" for the third, keeping "Web indexing" as an umbrella >>term for all three? > >Of the suggestions i've read so far, this one sounds the clearest to me. > >Cheers, > >--Tree > > > >------------------------------------------------------ >Tree Bressen >2244 Alder St. >Eugene, OR 97405 >(541) 343-5023 >tree@ic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 07:32:54 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about adding: Meta tag indexing - indexing for the purpose of search engine placement Max http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Robert A. Saigh To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] >Linda: > > How about these definitions to refine yours: > > Interweb indexing: Indexing within many web sites > Intraweb indexing: Indexing within one web site > HTML indexing: Indexing in one HTML file > > Rob > >Razorsharp Communications, Inc. >Robert A. Saigh, President >6482 Lloyd Avenue >Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 > >314.781.4731 (voice/fax) >fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:29:27 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <001d01bf1e24$479b9de0$215542cf@mdalrysr66.com> from Max Dalrymple contains these words: > Meta tag indexing - indexing for the purpose of search engine placement To take the second part first, there is one lesson which remains firmly in my mind from the days when I was learning to be a librarian. That is, if you're going to subdivide a topic, do it using only one "characteristic of division" at a time. The three levels I suggested subdivide the broad topic of Web indexing according to where the indexed information is located - one page, one site, or numerous sites. Your suggestion proposes introducing another kind of division, according to purpose. I've no problem with that in itself - any topic can be subdivided in several different ways, and this one could probably be done by "purpose of index" rather than by "location of indexed material". Not perhaps equally well - for example, there are likely to be many more types of purpose than there are types of location, and if so the simplicity of the threefold division would be lost. But whether that last speculation's accurate or not, the important point, I think, is to use one way of division or the other - not to mix the two, as would happen if we made your suggestion another category alongside mine. That sounds like a recipe for confusion to me, and since clearing up confusion was what I was hoping to achieve when I started this thread, you'll appreciate that I don't want to go down a road that might lead away from that goal! I've stronger objections to the first part of your suggestion - the label "meta tag indexing". For one thing, I'm convinced that we should resist the temptation to confuse "assigning keywords" with "indexing". The two aren't synonymous - indexing includes assigning keywords, but goes beyond that by developing a structure of relationships between the keywords, traditionally expressed via subheadings and cross-references. There's no mechanism that I know of for developing such a structure of relationships when using meta tags, and for that reason I'd argue that it doesn't make sense to describe their use as "indexing". I know it often *is* described as such, but I don't think we're obliged to accept that as correct, and I do think that accepting it would be yet another recipe for confusion. My second objection is that meta tags, if I understand correctly, are directly associated only with the file which contains them. Strictly speaking, therefore, they can only be applied at level 3 of my suggested categorisation. (If they are used to assign keywords to a site, it can only be done by placing them in a file which is at the top of a hierarchy of linked files.) If those two points are correct - that meta tags can be used to assign keywords but not to create an index, and that they can be used only in association with a single file - then it seems to me that on both counts the term "meta tag" is too restricted to be appropriate as a label (or part of a label) for a kind of Web indexing. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:05:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Linda Sutherland wrote: > > ... meta tags, if I understand correctly, are > directly associated only with the file which contains them. That's correct, and it's one of the reasons I object to dependence on "keywords" META tags even in constructing an index (not to mention access by search engines). As Ms. Sutherland points out, another shortcoming of "keywords" META tags is that they include no mechanism for developing complex keywords (hierarchy, multiple words, cross-references, and so on). --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 15:59:25 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: Just pondering Folks, I can't help but see some similarities between the plights of freelance article writers and indexers, especially when it comes to things like not getting paid by publishers. Do those of you who are practicing or aspiring indexers also consider yourselves to be writers? I guess I have a very broad definition of *writer* that includes indexers, abstractors, text organizers, editors and poets. Do any other indexers feel as akin to these other types of writers as I do? This matters a lot to me. The more I learn about indexes and the more I practice making them, the more fascinated I am by indexes as language constructs. The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own ponderings? Cindy Monroe Monroe Knowledge Services www.monroeknows.com phone: (301) 897-2137 fax: (301) 493-4046 Cindy Monroe Monroe Knowledge Services www.monroeknows.com phone: (301) 897-2137 fax: (301) 493-4046 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:59:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Just pondering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/24/99 3:03:57 PM Central Daylight Time, clmonroe@EROLS.COM writes: << The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own ponderings? >> Okay, I'll bite, I'm taking a break from the "creative process" 8-/ (Midnight deadline for Australian project). So I guess I can ponder. It'll keep me from dwelling on author-indexer relations for a few minutes. 1) Yes, I consider myself a writer and I tell the IRS that too. Try explaining indexer in any other way to "them". 2) I came to indexing through a love of database design, thesaurus development and information management. I'm a capable writer of protocols, reports, procedures etc.. but I'm really awful at fiction. Everything sounds like a police report. I guess that's why I keep trying to write fiction, but I hide the results so no one in my family gets a peek. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to tell stories that wander around and develop some kind of tension. From a business standpoint, we have a lot incommon with other writers. There's an indexing section in the Writer's Digest, or at least, there used to be. Freelance writers and freelance indexers have similar overheads. Of course, travel writers have more fun.. maybe. I'd bet that we sometimes make as much from the index as the writers finally get from royalties and that we earn more per hour than most writers of fiction. Our concerns about copyrights overlap. We face many of the same trends in technology and electronic publishing. Freelancers, of all sorts, face the same insurance and health care issues and time management problems. Well, back to the grindstone. Anyone else got views on our status as writers? Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:02:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Web indexing definitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ardith: Glad I could help. Rob -- Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 17:07:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Index editing symbols (was: beating me up) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary: Not to sound like a party pooper here, but why use symbols at all? Companies don't pay us enough. I have heard other indexers say they mark up the manuscript and then index. That's double work. Why create symbols; that's also double work. I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve the index -- at least not the way I do it. My feeling is indexing is more of a business than an art. I treat it like a business. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 23:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: EF Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, indexer. = However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the similarities = between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing with a = background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, I've = decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it seems = like a natural career move after years as a freelance article writer and = weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many of the same = business problems but it seems to me that there are even more = similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's the = deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly = the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. A small = town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material = and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure = day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, this is a = sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who can write = a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories have to be = written that way.)=20 As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking for = the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this = will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially = the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would = be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20 As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between = right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the = same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering? Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I usually lurk because I'm an = aspiring, rather=20 than practicing, indexer.  However, I wanted to jump into the = discussion on=20 the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into = indexing=20 with a background as a writer.  After researching indexing as a = career,=20 I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it = seems like=20 a natural career move after years as a freelance article writer and = weekly=20 newspaper editor.  I guess all freelancers share many of the same = business=20 problems but it seems to me that there are even more similarities = between my=20 newspaper job and indexing.  First, there's the deadline = pressure. =20 Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the publisher, to = check over=20 one's work before it's published.  A small town newspaper editor = usually=20 writes all copy except the filler material and self-edits.  Is it = any=20 wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure day, stupid mistakes get into = the=20 finished product?  (Sorry, this is a sore point.  People make = jokes=20 about small town papers but who can write a first draft perfectly?  = With=20 time pressure, many stories have to be written that way.)
   As a journalist, I'm = accustomed to=20 summarizing an event, looking for the main points and sub-categories of = an=20 interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing.  It seems = that a=20 love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey = the=20 intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer = would=20 have in common.
   As both writer and = editor, I had to=20 switch back and forth between right brain and left brain thinking.  = Doesn't=20 an indexer have to do the same thing?  Is this the similar = cognitive=20 processes you were pondering?
  = Clicker, who's=20 learning so much from this list 
   
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01BF1E76.4D5BCFA0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:52:06 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to everyone who responded to this query of mine. I think we all agree there's a problem, but there was no clear unanimity about how to tackle it or even how important it is. I was prompted to ask the question on receiving my gratis copy of Rachel Barrowman's centennial history of Victoria University of Wellington, which I indexed. Here's an example of a real entry from it, one of those which (if I had a second chance) I think I would do differently: Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380; opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82; proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21 To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports", "unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement, despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the subheadings: Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme, 22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30; university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34, 38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315 But as Michael Wyatt said, if the subheadings are not too numerous, it probably doesn't much matter what order they are presented in, and the limited time available for editing an index probably precludes extensive reworking of subheadings. Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 05:50:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Re: Just pondering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon: One method of keeping your fiction from reading like a police report is to show your fiction to friends and family and ask for criticism. The suggestion is that you have two "friends" read your work before you submit it to a publisher. Indexers don't have the time to do that and are working in an area in which we are assumed to know what we are doing, and no one "reads an index" as a fun thing to do over the weekend. Have you thought of joining a writer's group? One advantage is the sharing of work and the criticism one gets. The other suggestion is that you try to write "police procedurals." The DRAGNET series is a type of mystery, and it can be a fun format. I also suggest you read some of Hemingway's short stories. "A Clean Well-Lighted Place" is a short short story which is "about" several concepts, none of which is directly mentioned. And it lacks the overt sexism of some of his other stories. I've used it in public library discussion groups. I frankly can't stand a lot of Hemingway, but that short story is one of my favorite stories. Perhaps it is "an indexer's" short story since you can examine it's "aboutness." Ooh - it's a good thing I don't teach indexing, because I think I'd have my students index Hemingway as a final exam! I didn't find your e-mail address on your e-mail, so this is going to the complete list. I think writer's need to be encouraged in their fiction writing. - One equivalent pricing technique is to compare and indexer's pay per word, since author's are sometimes paid this way and frequently compute the statistic. I've not read anyone on the index who's shared that information (and I think it would need to be kept as an indexer's trade secret - authors will howl if they find out). Max Dalrymple, who will be indexing his own website this week and remembers what Vonnegut said about indexing. http://www.computerhealthinfo.com/ http://www.geocities.com/publiclibrarycirc/ -----Original Message----- From: SHughes512@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Just pondering >In a message dated 10/24/99 3:03:57 PM Central Daylight Time, >clmonroe@EROLS.COM writes: > ><< The processes of creating and refining indexes seem to > reveal so much about how we think. Anybody want to share your own > ponderings? >> > > Okay, I'll bite, I'm taking a break from the "creative process" 8-/ >(Midnight deadline for Australian project). So I guess I can ponder. It'll >keep me from dwelling on author-indexer relations for a few minutes. 1) Yes, >I consider myself a writer and I tell the IRS that too. Try explaining >indexer in any other way to "them". 2) I came to indexing through a love >of database design, thesaurus development and information management. I'm a >capable writer of protocols, reports, procedures etc.. but I'm really awful >at fiction. Everything sounds like a police report. I guess that's why I >keep trying to write fiction, but I hide the results so no one in my family >gets a peek. Maybe someday I'll figure out how to tell stories that wander >around and develop some kind of tension. > From a business standpoint, we have a lot incommon with other writers. >There's an indexing section in the Writer's Digest, or at least, there used >to be. Freelance writers and freelance indexers have similar overheads. Of >course, travel writers have more fun.. maybe. I'd bet that we sometimes make >as much from the index as the writers finally get from royalties and that we >earn more per hour than most writers of fiction. Our concerns about >copyrights overlap. We face many of the same trends in technology and >electronic publishing. Freelancers, of all sorts, face the same insurance >and health care issues and time management problems. > Well, back to the grindstone. Anyone else got views on our status as >writers? > Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 09:41:34 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: Re: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I knew you would all have different and very interesting perspectives!=20 I think that EF understood best what I was trying to say, that the = processes of evoking and condensing meaning, organizing subjects etc are = very similar in indexing and in other sorts of writing. I am not saying = that either writing or indexing is the more honorable activity. I too = have always thought that that A Clean, Well-Lighted Place is one of the = best short-stories ever written. While it would be foolish to index = fiction, it might be fun to take a short story and index it and see what = sort of text you would come up with. Personally, it might answer my = question of why when I try to write fiction I always end up with a poem. = It might also be fun to take a short index and write a story from it = (working backwards.) It would be amazing to see the different texts = that would result. I think language is the best view we have into the = brain, and if we can learn from our use of it how we think alike and how = we think differently, then we might get closer to such practical things = as better search engines. Anyone wishing to ponder further on such = things can respond to me off list if they want. clmonroe@erols.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: EF=20 To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 12:20 AM Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering") I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, = indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the = similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing = with a background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, = I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it = seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article = writer and weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many = of the same business problems but it seems to me that there are even = more similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's = the deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except = possibly the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. = A small town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler = material and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high = pressure day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, = this is a sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who = can write a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories = have to be written that way.)=20 As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking = for the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this = will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially = the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would = be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20 As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between = right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the = same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering? Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I knew you would all have different and = very=20 interesting perspectives!
I think that EF understood best what I = was trying=20 to say, that the processes of evoking and condensing meaning, organizing = subjects etc are very similar in indexing and in other sorts of writing. = I am=20 not saying that either writing or indexing is the more = honorable=20 activity. I too have always thought that that A Clean, = Well-Lighted=20 Place is one of the best short-stories ever written. While it would be = foolish=20 to index fiction, it might be fun to take a short story and = index it=20 and see what sort of text you would come up with. Personally, it = might=20 answer my question of why when I try to write fiction I always end up = with a=20 poem. It might also be fun to take a short index and = write a=20 story from it (working backwards.)  It would be amazing to see=20 the different texts that would result. I think language is the best = view we=20 have into the brain, and if we can learn from our use of it how we think = alike=20 and how we think differently, then we might get closer to such practical = things=20 as better search engines. Anyone = wishing to=20 ponder further on such things can respond to me off list if they want.=20 clmonroe@erols.com
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 EF=20
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 = 12:20=20 AM
Subject: Writers & Indexers = (was=20 "Just Pondering")

I usually lurk because I'm an = aspiring, rather=20 than practicing, indexer.  However, I wanted to jump into the = discussion=20 on the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into = indexing with a background as a writer.  After researching = indexing as a=20 career, I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing = and it=20 seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article = writer and=20 weekly newspaper editor.  I guess all freelancers share many of = the same=20 business problems but it seems to me that there are even more = similarities=20 between my newspaper job and indexing.  First, there's the = deadline=20 pressure.  Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the=20 publisher, to check over one's work before it's published.  A = small town=20 newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material = and=20 self-edits.  Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure = day,=20 stupid mistakes get into the finished product?  (Sorry, this is a = sore=20 point.  People make jokes about small town papers but who can = write a=20 first draft perfectly?  With time pressure, many stories have to = be=20 written that way.)
   As a journalist, I'm = accustomed=20 to summarizing an event, looking for the main points and = sub-categories of an=20 interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing.  It seems = that a=20 love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey = the=20 intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer = would=20 have in common.
   As both writer and = editor, I had=20 to switch back and forth between right brain and left brain = thinking. =20 Doesn't an indexer have to do the same thing?  Is this the = similar=20 cognitive processes you were pondering?
  = Clicker, who's=20 learning so much from this list 
   
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BF1ECD.200216C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:14:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ilana Kingsley Subject: Re: Cross-reference & multiple indexes In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991019111939.00993380@chesco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for everyone's ideas & comments. I ended up using a minimal amount of cross-references and using lots of sub-headings. --Ilana Kingsley ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:57:05 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I try to give the reader as much help as possible when numerous subheadings are used, especially in run-in format. I will often use passive constructions to bring the key elements to the fore, thereby allowing these sometimes forbidding blocks of text to be scanned alphabetically in a more meaningful fashion. For example, "reform of university opposed by" or "Sunday tennis supported by" appeal to me here. Although these constructions can sound a bit stilted, I prefer them to some of the brief subentries in the second version. For example, "Hockey Club" does not clarify the relationship to the main heading (Did he found it, belong to it, become president of it, disband it?). Nick Koenig > >Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan >to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and >government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380; >opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82; >proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in >Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic >head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, >30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15, >315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21 > >To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports", >"unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the >subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have >so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs >were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement, >despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the >subheadings: > >Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building >named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence >classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey >Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme, >22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30; >university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34, >38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:18:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin g MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all. I'm working on Lesson 10 in the USDA course using Sky's demo version. In my liberal first-pass through the document, I reached the 300-entry limit. Eek! I'm ready to deepen my commitment to indexing and spring for the Sky's Standard edition, but I noticed that the product allows only two heading levels, not three. Here are my questions: --Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time), and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)? --Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know about that would affect being an effective part-time indexer? Feel free to reply offline: kfield@stellcom.com Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 11:17:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: INDEX-L Digest - 21 Oct 1999 to 22 Oct 1999 (#1999-84) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dwight wrote: >[...] very large sites [...] small sites or intranets Apart from the obvious extremes, how do you identify a "very large" vs "small" site? And why would an "intranet" necessarily be considered a "small" site? For example, the intranet we're currently building is likely to become what I would consider "very large". (It's for a large multinational and will access a huge number of files, everything from multimedia to drawings to formatted and unformatted text.) That's what I'd call an "obvious extreme". But in general, due to its more focussed nature, maybe an intranet would have a built-in "smallification" factor when comparing it with other sites and with printed books? Does anyone have a way to draw a parallel between site size and book size? Would the equivalent "size" be, for example, - number of screens (at maximized browser setting) vs number of printed pages - number of web pages vs number of sections, chapters, or subsections - number of web pages vs number of printed pages - number of words/pictures vs the same (not counting the difference between hyperlinks vs "see page xx" vs inline redundancies, I suppose) - ?? A side issue: I think the "density" of a site is easily comparable to the "density" of a book. What do you think? RAH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:56:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/25/1999 11:23:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kfield@STELLCOM.COM writes: << --Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time), and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)? --Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know about that would affect being an effective part-time indexer? >> I have been using Sky Standard as a full-time indexer for a year. So far, it has worked just fine for me. I have had no need for sub-subheads and have done a variety of types of books. Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:38:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin g Karen, I used Sky Standard for the USDA course and many practice indexes. The two sublevel feature is quite adequate - it means you can have a main heading, sub1 and sub2, which is probably all you'll need. Sky standard doesn't automatically suppress leading prepositions, but it is easy to write macros that do this (print the preposition but don't sort on it). It's been awhile since I used it, but it worked pretty well for me. The "bells and whistles" in Sky Professional would really speed up your editing and allow you to handle more books at a time. But you can decide later if you want to invest in that. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:49:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen, Sky Standard allows two *subheading* levels so it should be adequate for almost all indexes. The limitation is the lack of some of the more powerful tools for editing and checking for errors. This can slow you down considerably in some indexes when, for example you have to flip a lot of entries. If you can tolerate the extra time it takes the Standard Edition can do the job. For more details you may want to post you question to the Sky user's list at SKYIndexUsers@onelist.com Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field To: Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin g > Hi all. > > I'm working on Lesson 10 in the USDA course using Sky's demo version. In my > liberal first-pass through the document, I reached the 300-entry limit. Eek! > I'm ready to deepen my commitment to indexing and spring for the Sky's > Standard edition, but I noticed that the product allows only two heading > levels, not three. > > Here are my questions: > > --Is anyone using Sky Standard for part-time indexing (or even full-time), > and is this limitation a problem? In other words, do you get many indexing > assigments that require three levels (two sublevels)? > > --Also, are there other limitations to Sky Standard that I should know about > that would affect being an effective part-time indexer? > > Feel free to reply offline: kfield@stellcom.com > > Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:38:58 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Thanks Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-t ime indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Thanks to all who've replied on and offlist. I misunderstood the literature, and thought Sky allowed for only ONE subhead level. Since it allows for two subheads,I'm sure that will be enough. More than one person recommended looking into Macrex at this juncture. If you use Macrex and have a moment, please reply and tell me what you prefer over Sky. Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:42:44 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Natalie Boon Subject: thesaurus construction for databases Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Hello all, I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can anybody recommend anything? Natalie ----------------------------------------------------- Natalie Boon natalieboon@icqmail.com ICQ#: 52895289 Information Architect Higher Studies Abroad Project Institute for Leadership Development (ILD): A United Nations Global Partnership Program ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: Questions about Sky Standard edition related to part-time indexin g MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi Karen, I just wanted to let you know that SKY Index Standard Edition does automatically ignore prepositions if desired. I think that Susan is thinking of SKY Index version 4 - not version 5.1. As has been mentioned, for most people, the main difference between using the Standard or Professional Editions is going to be the speed at which you can complete the index. The Standard Edition has all of the basics needed to write professional quality indexes. Happy Indexing! Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 350 Montgomery Circle Stephens City, VA 22655 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: (800) 776-0137 or (540) 869-6581 Fax: (540) 869-6581 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:33:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:52 PM 10/25/99 +1300, Simon wrote: >Thanks to everyone who responded to this query of mine. I think we all >agree there's a problem, but there was no clear unanimity about how to >tackle it or even how important it is. > >I was prompted to ask the question on receiving my gratis copy of Rachel >Barrowman's centennial history of Victoria University of Wellington, which >I indexed. Here's an example of a real entry from it, one of those which >(if I had a second chance) I think I would do differently: > >Stout, Robert, _12_; administration building named after, 111; asks Jordan >to comment on university system, 30-1; chairman of Council, 381; and >government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; and music, 380; >opposes university reform, 31, 33, 34, 38; president of Hockey Club, 82; >proposes specialisation scheme, 22; proposes university college in >Wellington, 13-14; reforming speech (1886), 32; suggests permanent academic >head for college, 57; supports Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, >30; unveils memorial window, 49; vision of a 'people's university', 15, >315; wants extension or correspondence classes, 21 > >To use such words as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports", >"unveils", and "wants" to determine the alphabetical arrangement of the >subheadings strikes me (now) as somewhat perverse, since these words have >so many synonyms, and perhaps the heading would be better if such verbs >were simply omitted. Perhaps something like this would be an improvement, >despite the lack of grammatical connection between the main heading and the >subheadings: > >Stout, Robert, _12_; academic head for college, 57; administration building >named after, 111; chairman of Council, 381; extension or correspondence >classes, 21; government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; Hockey >Club, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; music, 380; specialisation scheme, >22; speech (1886), 32; Sunday tennis, 80; university chancellor, 30; >university college in Wellington, 13-14; university reform, 30-1, 33, 34, >38; vision of a 'people's university', 15, 315 > >But as Michael Wyatt said, if the subheadings are not too numerous, it >probably doesn't much matter what order they are presented in, and the >limited time available for editing an index probably precludes extensive >reworking of subheadings. Hello Simon: I wholeheartedly agree with your point that leading subheadings with words such as "asks", "opposes", "proposes", "suggests", "supports", "unveils", and "wants" is not as helpful for information retrieval as leading subheadings with key words, but if you'd have eliminated them as you suggest in your reworked list I think you'd have sacrificed too much of the clarity of your subheadings through not making a judicious use of function words. Here's another way of reworking your list based on how I understand your original subheadings and on what I think is a minimal use of function words to insure their clarity (and, for the sake of simplicity, on a presumption about the university-centered context of the book that could easily be a bit off): Stout, Robert, _12_; on academic leadership, 57; administration building named after, 111; as chancellor, 30; as Council chairman, 381; on extension (correspondence) classes, 21; and government scientific establishment, 13, 20, 50, 161; as Hockey Club president, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; and music (on music?), 380; on reform, 30-1, 32, 33, 34, 38; specialisation scheme, 22; on Sunday tennis, 80; vision of 'people's university', 15, 315; Wellington university college proposal, 13-14 On your last point about lacking time for reworking subheadings, the narrative form in which you conceived of and wrote your biographical subheadings may seem more natural to you, but if so this is probably just the way in which you learned to do it. If you now prefer such subheadings written in another way you probably can retrain yourself fairly easily to conceive of them in this way and never have to think about reworking them from narrative style. Best regards, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 10:03:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tree Bressen Subject: methods & efficiency In-Reply-To: <199910250402.AAA18135@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, Rob wrote: >I have heard other indexers say they mark up the manuscript and then >index. That's double work. Why create symbols; that's also double work. > > I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me >more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve >the index -- at least not the way I do it. This statement fascinates me. I'm fairly new to the profession and the list (currently indexing my 5th book, and just joined the list in August), yet it's clear that there are many different methods in use by different indexers. So far my dollar/hour has been much lower than many other people's. I expect simple practice will help raise it, and i'll likely upgrade my software at some point. However, i am very interested in other ways to improve my efficiency. Currently i am one of those indexers who mark up the manuscript first, then do the data entry chapter by chapter. I don't write out every detail on the manuscript, but i underline or check off main terms, write or indicate many subentries, and so on. If i didn't do this, i believe it would be significantly harder to edit the index later, because i wouldn't have any reference marks to draw my eye when i went back to refer to the manuscript page. I am very curious to hear how Rob and other indexers who just go straight through without marking text handle this? Cheers, --Tree ------------------------------------------------------ Tree Bressen 2244 Alder St. Eugene, OR 97405 (541) 343-5023 tree@ic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:11:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: web indexing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's been a lot of talk about Web indexing which I've paid no attention to as I haven't ever done it and didn't expect to do it, so now of course I've been offered a project and have no clue how to do it. Fortunately it's for a friend, with no time limit, so I have plenty of time to learn. Can someone point me to a crash course? It's for a site index (what did we decide on for that, intraweb index?). Just goes to show me that even if I think I'm not interested in something I should still pay attention. I still have no clue how to search the Index-L archives. Could someone give me a crash course on that, too? I was really pleased to see all the comments my post about beating myself up generated. It made me feel a lot better, and I learned a great deal. I hope everyone will forgive me for not sending individual thank yous, but I got nearly 30 responses. I read every single one, and they were all of great value. Noncat lovers, delete now. For the rest, I have come up with an ingenius (my humble opinion) way of keeping my cats off my monitor, which became imperative after the other day when I came in to find 3 of them all trying to shove each other off the monitor, meanwhile, I got to the monitor just in time to keep it from toppling. So what I did was get one of my rubbermaid outdoor little side tables, which just happens to fit perfectly over the monitor yet doesn't block the air flow. On top of that I put a sheet of aluminum foil which they don't like, and on top of the foil I put a lot of strips of low-tack double sided tape, which they really hate. No more cats on monitors. THANKS!!!!! Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 18:50:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: methods & efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tree, Don't feel guilty for marking pages. I've been indexing for many years, and have tried to change this modus operandi. I can't; that is the way I work. I can't seem to read, think, and enter data on the keyboard all at the same time. Just doesn't work for me. Different people work different ways. Pick the one you are most comfortable with, and stick with it. You might want to experiment, but in the end, whichever is most natural and productive for you is the one you should stick with, and don't let those "non-markup" folks intimidate you if you choose to keep marking proof, as I do. :-) Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 15:55:05 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: cross-references Comments: To: CindexUsers , SKYIndexUsers , Web Indexers' Mailing List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pardon the multiple=list posting, but I'm seeking information from all users of all indexing tools: Cindex, Macrex, Sky Index, typewriters, 3x5 cards, and anythig I've overlooked. ;) Specifically, I'd like to hear how each of you goes about cross-referencing: * Create index entries, then go back and create cross-references, or create cross-references along with "regular" index entries? * Keep a list of cross-references separate from "regular" index entries, or view them all in a single merged list? I'm not so much interested in arguing about the "right way" and the "wrong way" as in hearing how you *think* about cross-references and the way you use your chosen tools to create them. I leave it to your discretion whether to reply directly to me (dmbrown@brown-inc.com) or by way of the various lists. Thanks *very* much for taking time to share! --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 16:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: web indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Rice wrote: > > Can someone point me to a crash course? It's for a site index... The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also includes a lot of information about files, anchors, and other valid "targets" of your index entries; the significance of the directory structure; the need to make index entries unique; and many other aspects unique to a web-site index. The tutorial takes about an hour to go through if you're doing the exercises--significantly less if you're only plumbing the text! It's included with the free demo, available at the HTML Indexer web site. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:13:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: cross-references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi David, I use CINDEX, but I'm not sure that's really relevant as to how I write cross-references. I would say that I write cross-references at three points in the process: 1. I write some cross-references almost immediately when I begin picking out terms; 2. I write some as synonyms appear in the text; 3. and I write some when I am editing the index after creating entries. In the first instance, I can often anticipate the need for a cross-reference, especially when using terms with lots of obvious synonyms or hierarchical relationships. So those I can write in early on. I also write cross-references as I make connections between topics while creating main headings and subheads. In other words, if a topic appears to be related but I make a decision to put it in one place over another, I might write the cross-reference as I see the need for it. (These are often markers for future treatment of a topic, and I edit these over and over as I work.) Finally, at the final edit, I usually find a few more cases of related terms that need connecting. At the end, I also replace blind x-refs with double-posts if the entries aren't long. While working, I try to put the locators all in one place and double-post at the end, to save time. Sometimes an interim x-ref holds a spot for what will later be a double-posted entry. I'm not sure if using any particular software makes writing x-refs easier, but I do love the "verify" feature in CINDEX to check them. That saves lots of time and energy I used to have to spend laboriously checking x-refs at the edit stage. In fact, one of my editors says she has also been able to give up what used to be a routine check she had to make, because she knows that CINDEX takes the worry out of verifying the x-refs. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:05:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Re: web indexing In-Reply-To: <3814E2EE.8A69A572@brown-inc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also er, Thanks, Dave, but I should have said, I have a Mac. I did check out the demo but there doesn't appear to be a Mac version. :-( Rae Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Indexing, editing, proofreading http://homepages.together.net/~racric racric ICQ 31476947 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 19:09:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: web indexing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 10/25/1999 5:11 PM Rachel Rice wrote (in part): >Just goes to show me that even if I think I'm not interested in something I >should still pay attention. I still have no clue how to search the Index-L >archives. Could someone give me a crash course on that, too? First, send a message to the address for commands which contains the following message: INFO DATABASE You will receive a message back that has detailed information on how to search the archive database via e-mail, replete with examples. I recently used this for the first time and was very pleased with the results. The search language is quite flexible. In my case, I wanted to refresh my memory of the recent discussion of fictional characters and submitted the following query (also to the address for commands): Search 'fictional character' in Index-L I then received a list of discussions in which that string occurred, a brief snippet of the conversation, and a sample command which I could cut, paste, and send to get the complete posts containing the string 'fictional character'. hth, Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:32:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PDepri5514@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Small Claims Court, again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/22/99 5:38:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, elinzer@JUNO.COM writes: << Now, the Small Claims Courts in the City of New York can be used to sue defendants in the City of New York only. They can not be used against parties elsewhere in the state of New York. I am not sure what one does if one has a problem with somebody in the rest of New York State involving a small amount of money. >> Elliot; The plaintiff would have to go to the defendant's jurisdiction and sue him there. Patrick :-) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 17:56:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: web indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rachel Rice wrote: > > >The HTML Indexer tutorial is certainly product-centric, but it also > > er, Thanks, David, but I should have said, I have a Mac. I did check out > the demo but there doesn't appear to be a Mac version. :-( Ah. Sadly, that's correct. One day, if there's any way... --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 20:05:11 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kara, Thanks so much for your response and the explanation of the logic behind it. The consensus was to index the rabbis and popes under the individual names and I did that. My original question comes under the heading of WWITO? (What Was I Thinking Of? - I don't know if this is an already used abbreviation, but whenever I get a well thought out response like yours, WWITO comes to mind). I'm a new indexer and the information from experienced indexers like you is invaluable. Thanks, Nina -----Original Message----- From: John and Kara Pekar To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 2:51 PM Subject: Re: indexing under broader topics >> On this subject, I am indexing a book on Judaica that contains the names >of >> numerous (say 15) rabbis and several popes. I typed in the names as Rabbi >> Cohen, David so I could see how many were in the book (I realize now I >could >> have entered them last name first and just searched for all occurences of >> Rabbi!). I was going to invert each name (Cohen, Rabbi David) when I got >to >> thinking that maybe I should have a main heading Rabbis and put each name >as >> a subheading since I have a feeling that the reader would not know the >> individual names. And do the same thing for the popes. And since I am >> limited to the number of entries, I would not post each under the >individual >> names (I think I would double post if space were not a constraint). > >In general, I think that if people are important enough to index, they >ought to have their own entry. Don't "hide" them in a generic entry where >many readers will miss them. The only time I've violated this principle is >when the publisher preferred the individuals under a generic term >("artists" or "scientists"), and that was for a children's book index where >the entire index fit on a two-page spread, and so could be seen in its >entirety. > >I appreciate your desire to gather these people together by occupation, but >take another look and make sure you aren't over-indexing. You need to be >sure that including the topics "popes" and "rabbis" is relevant in the >context of the book. In this case, I'd be inclined to index the >individuals under their own names, and cross-reference (generically or >specifically) from rabbis and from popes. Or even leave out "rabbis" and >"popes" as entries entirely, unless there is information about rabbis >and/or popes in general. Of course, it depends on your audience, but if I >as a reader look up "rabbis," I don't necessarily expect a list of them, >just information about rabbis as a group. And if I need information about >a specific person -- very likely to happen, especially in the case of >well-known or historical figures -- I am *not* likely to figure out that I >have to look under a generic term to find it. > >Incidentally, I think this desire to pull all the threads together -- even >when it is unnecessary or detrimental -- is a common indexers' malady. I >fight it myself -- frequently. We're so used to thinking hierarchically >and relationally that it goes against the grain to realize that >occasionally, it isn't necessary or desirable, it's just overkill. We >can't stand the idea that there might be an "unattached" thread in our >carefully woven index. This syndrome needs a name. Ideas, anyone? > >JMHO, > >Kara Pekar >Wordsmith Indexing Services >jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 22:07:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ghg410@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Reagan biography index MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends, Why is this Reagan biography not being classified as historical fiction? It is one of my favorite genres and this one sounds like an especially good piece of historical fiction. Just having an index implies that this is not fiction does it not? (No offense intended to the indexer.) There was something unreal about an actor being president and now the feeling of unreality has carried over to his authorized biography. What will they think of next? How did the Library of Congress classify this book? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 21:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J. Naomi Linzer" Subject: editing tips (was beating myself up) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, I really appreciated all the posts in response to Rachel's e-mail about how to close the holes during final editing. Going through my index in page order to see if all DP's and X-ref are covered makes me feel more confident that I am editing systematically. (I'd like to avoid as many self-inflicted bruises as possible, too! Thanks all. Best, J. Naomi Linzer: Indexing Services POB 1341 459 Redway Drive Redway, CA 95560-1341 Phone: (707) 923-4361 fax: (360) 838-5620 jnlinzer@saber.net ****************************************************************************** http://www.asindexing.org <-- American Society of Indexers website. ****************************************************************************** ^Ý ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:34:59 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alan Walker Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases In-Reply-To: <19991025204244.21758.cpmta@c005.sfo.cp.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote: >I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can anybody recommend anything? Start by looking at This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction. Invaluable. Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 08:56:24 -0000 Reply-To: Christine Shuttleworth Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth Subject: Writers and indexers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit clmonroe wrote: Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: web indexing The message from Rachel Rice contains these words: > It's for a site index (what did we > decide on for that, intraweb index?). Don't think we've reached a decision yet - waiting to see if more ideas appear! People who take the list in digest form may only now be catching up with the discussion. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: methods & efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tree: I drill down through the index. In other words, I start with chapter titles, go to the headings, then the subheadings and then the text. I go through the text in sweeps also. By the time, I reach anything that's left, nothing usually remains. Also, more and more, publishers are specifying maximum index lengths which is fine with me because it shortens my job. At times, I have done index jobs wherein I barely touched the text because most of the necessary information was in the heads and subheads. I realize this is probably not completely kosher (or, maybe it is), but -- as I wrote in another e-mail -- the proof is in the pudding. I never mark up the text, and they are still hiring me. Thank goodness for that, too. Hope this helps you become more efficient in your endeavor. Rob Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 07:27:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Natalie Boon Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Thanks for your suggestion! On Tue, 26 October 1999, Alan Walker wrote: > > At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote: > >I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a > database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources > dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can > anybody recommend anything? > > Start by looking at > > This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction. > Invaluable. > > Alan > > -- > > Alan Walker, Indexer > President, Australian Society of Indexers > 10 Rockwall Crescent > Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia > Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 > Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 > Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ----------------------------------------------------- Natalie Boon natalieboon@icqmail.com ICQ#: 52895289 Information Architect Higher Studies Abroad Project Institute for Leadership Development (ILD): A United Nations Global Partnership Program ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------- Sign up for ICQmail at http://www.icq.com/icqmail/signup.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 11:50:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: How to search the archives easily MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are much, much easier ways to search the index-l archives. To search the archives prior to April 1999 go to http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html Fill in the little boxes and click the search button. To search the archives after April 1999, when the list moved to a internet-savvy server, go to http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html and click on the "search the archives" link fill in the little boxes, and click the "start the search" button. I have these two URLs in my bookmark file, labeled appropriately. Makes searching the archives a breeze and I don't have to keep emailing the listserver with programming commands in an arcane language. Happy hunting, Shelley Greenhouse database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:49:09 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: methods & efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Tree, I also index as I read the text. I don't mark up the pages and I try to make my entries as complete as possible the first time I write them. I also put in my cross references as I'm building my index. I find myself editing the index as it builds (this is easy to do in Macrex). This may mean that I re-write a main entry or combining or even separating a main entry as the text material requires. But I usually do this while still indexing the material and not during the final edit. Also, though I might look through the text before starting a book a don't read it beforehand. But I have found that reading the preface (which often is not indexed) will sometimes give me a pretty good idea where the author is going in the text. And experience in the subject also helps with speed as I'm already familiar with the vocabulary and concepts in the text. For example, if I'm indexing the political process I already know what "log rolling" means and don't have to spend a few pages wondering what the heck the author is talking about :-). Sometimes I find that the subheadings in the text make good entries or subentries, however, I always read the text as this is not always the case. Sometimes text subheads are right on and sometimes they can be somewhat misleading. Reading the text is the only way to tell. I've found that indexing this way means I have to spend very little time, relative to the indexing process, editing the final index. Most of my time editing is spent looking for typos, awkward entries, the aesthetics of the index etc. I then import the index file into Word, run a spellcheck (I'm a terrible speller and I know it), return to Macrex to finish up the final formatting of the index and make the .rtf file which I send to my client. It's taken many years of indexing to allow me to feel comfortable creating entries which are almost always complete on the first try. I also marked my pages the first six months until I felt comfortable enough not to and I did see my speed pick up considerably. But I do feel that no one ever needs to apologize for their working method. If marking up pages helps you to do a better job don't feel that you have to stop just because someone else doesn't mark their pages. Or if you write yourself notes or have three different versions of an entry while working--that's just fine. We are all different and I do think, as someone else said, the proof is in the pudding. The best validation is repeat work. Being able to speed up your work and increase your earning power is certainly a worthy goal. But don't feel that you have to do what other indexers are doing. While it's good to ask and hear about other's indexing processes (I'm interested in that myself) remember that we are all individuals with different ways of thinking, creating, and indexing. And, as long as the final index is useful to the reader, those indexing processes are all just fine! Increasing one's speed has a lot to do with just sheer experience. You'll get faster as you find your own special techniques and confidence in your indexing decisions (going back and double guessing yourself while indexing tends to take up time!). Good luck, doing your fifth index sounds as though you're on the right track. Best, Sylvia Coates -----Original Message----- From: Tree Bressen To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 7:00 AM Subject: methods & efficiency >Hello, > >Rob wrote: > >>I have heard other indexers say they mark up the manuscript and then >>index. That's double work. Why create symbols; that's also double work. >> >> I index as I go through and that's it. Even if companies paid me >>more, marking up the manuscript and/or using symbols would not improve >>the index -- at least not the way I do it. > >This statement fascinates me. I'm fairly new to the profession and the >list (currently indexing my 5th book, and just joined the list in August), >yet it's clear that there are many different methods in use by different >indexers. > >So far my dollar/hour has been much lower than many other people's. I >expect simple practice will help raise it, and i'll likely upgrade my >software at some point. However, i am very interested in other ways to >improve my efficiency. > >Currently i am one of those indexers who mark up the manuscript first, then >do the data entry chapter by chapter. I don't write out every detail on >the manuscript, but i underline or check off main terms, write or indicate >many subentries, and so on. If i didn't do this, i believe it would be >significantly harder to edit the index later, because i wouldn't have any >reference marks to draw my eye when i went back to refer to the manuscript >page. I am very curious to hear how Rob and other indexers who just go >straight through without marking text handle this? > >Cheers, > >--Tree > > > >------------------------------------------------------ >Tree Bressen >2244 Alder St. >Eugene, OR 97405 >(541) 343-5023 >tree@ic.org > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Kennedy Subject: Re: methods & efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Sylvia Coates > I also index as I read the text. I don't mark up the pages and I try to make > my entries as complete as possible the first time I write them. I also put > in my cross references as I'm building my index. . . . This may mean that I > re-write a main entry or combining or even separating a main entry as the > text material requires. But I usually do this while still indexing the > material and not during the final edit. . . . I might look through the text before starting a book a don't > read it beforehand. That is exactly the way I have always indexed. Although I edit more than I index, I've done a fair number of indexes over the years, for a variety of publishers, and neither a publisher nor an author has ever complained about one of my indexes. One of them was even cited in a review as a reason for readers to buy the book's new edition, in which the index appeared, even if they had the previous edition. Carol Kennedy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:34:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: methods & efficiency MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sylvia: I agree with you completely. Each indexer must do what he or she finds comfortable. If the indexing speed and dollar return are satisfactory by marking up the text, stick with that method. Whatever works. I tend to enjoy avoiding the computer as much as possible, so whatever speeds up the process (without sacrificing quality) is for me. Right now, I am beginning testing Naturally Speaking software (upgrade version) to see if I can use it exclusively for indexing, ergo no typing. Theoretically, once the system is trained, mistakes should drop and efficiency rise. In reality, I doubt it. Rob -- Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 13:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: methods & efficiency In-Reply-To: <3815F436.DEF67B4F@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been very satisfied with Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred for the Pentium III. Training took about 10 minutes and accuracy is quite high. I do find, though, that it's obviously not as effective with an index with lots of unusual personal names or complex terms. For general subjects, though, I estimate it reduces my entry time by about 30%. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com Right now, I am beginning testing Naturally > Speaking software (upgrade version) to see if I can use it exclusively > for indexing, ergo no typing. Theoretically, once the system is > trained, mistakes should drop and efficiency rise. In > reality, I doubt > it. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: clmonroe Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clmonroe Subject: Re: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering") MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_013F_01BF1FD1.402D4DC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01BF1FD1.402D4DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi EF or Clicker, I did send a follow-up to the list, but I am not sure it got posted. You = did understand *exactly* what I was trying to get at. It was interesting = to me to see that several people didn't get it at all. I have a pretty = high opinion of small town newspaper people. My family owned a small = paper in Illinois and my uncle was the editor until he died. Everyone in = the family worked at the paper, even after it was bought by Gannett. I = have a box of the old wooden type that they used to use. Right now I = have a freelance job where I write abstracts of newspaper articles. = Abstracting is also an interesting combination of right and left brain = thinking. Thanks for your message. Cindy ----- Original Message -----=20 From: EF=20 To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 12:20 AM Subject: Writers & Indexers (was "Just Pondering") I usually lurk because I'm an aspiring, rather than practicing, = indexer. However, I wanted to jump into the discussion on the = similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into indexing = with a background as a writer. After researching indexing as a career, = I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing and it = seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article = writer and weekly newspaper editor. I guess all freelancers share many = of the same business problems but it seems to me that there are even = more similarities between my newspaper job and indexing. First, there's = the deadline pressure. Then, there's the fact of no one, except = possibly the publisher, to check over one's work before it's published. = A small town newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler = material and self-edits. Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high = pressure day, stupid mistakes get into the finished product? (Sorry, = this is a sore point. People make jokes about small town papers but who = can write a first draft perfectly? With time pressure, many stories = have to be written that way.)=20 As a journalist, I'm accustomed to summarizing an event, looking = for the main points and sub-categories of an interview, and I think this = will be useful in indexing. It seems that a love of words, especially = the exact word or words to concisely convey the intended meaning, would = be something else that a writer and an indexer would have in common.=20 As both writer and editor, I had to switch back and forth between = right brain and left brain thinking. Doesn't an indexer have to do the = same thing? Is this the similar cognitive processes you were pondering? Clicker, who's learning so much from this list =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_013F_01BF1FD1.402D4DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi EF or Clicker,
 
I did send a follow-up to the = list, but I am=20 not sure it got posted. You did understand *exactly* what I was trying = to get=20 at. It was interesting to me to see that several people didn't get it at = all. I=20 have a pretty high opinion of small town newspaper people. My family = owned a=20 small paper in Illinois and my uncle was the editor until he died. = Everyone in=20 the family worked at the paper, even after it was bought by = Gannett. I have=20 a box of the old wooden type that they used to use. Right now I have a = freelance=20 job where I write abstracts of newspaper articles. Abstracting is also = an=20 interesting combination of right and left brain thinking. Thanks for = your=20 message.
 
Cindy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 EF=20
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU=20
Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 = 12:20=20 AM
Subject: Writers & Indexers = (was=20 "Just Pondering")

I usually lurk because I'm an = aspiring, rather=20 than practicing, indexer.  However, I wanted to jump into the = discussion=20 on the similarities between writers and indexers since I'm coming into = indexing with a background as a writer.  After researching = indexing as a=20 career, I've decided that it's something I believe I could enjoy doing = and it=20 seems like a natural career move after years as a freelance article = writer and=20 weekly newspaper editor.  I guess all freelancers share many of = the same=20 business problems but it seems to me that there are even more = similarities=20 between my newspaper job and indexing.  First, there's the = deadline=20 pressure.  Then, there's the fact of no one, except possibly the=20 publisher, to check over one's work before it's published.  A = small town=20 newspaper editor usually writes all copy except the filler material = and=20 self-edits.  Is it any wonder that after a 14 hour, high pressure = day,=20 stupid mistakes get into the finished product?  (Sorry, this is a = sore=20 point.  People make jokes about small town papers but who can = write a=20 first draft perfectly?  With time pressure, many stories have to = be=20 written that way.)
   As a journalist, I'm = accustomed=20 to summarizing an event, looking for the main points and = sub-categories of an=20 interview, and I think this will be useful in indexing.  It seems = that a=20 love of words, especially the exact word or words to concisely convey = the=20 intended meaning, would be something else that a writer and an indexer = would=20 have in common.
   As both writer and = editor, I had=20 to switch back and forth between right brain and left brain = thinking. =20 Doesn't an indexer have to do the same thing?  Is this the = similar=20 cognitive processes you were pondering?
  = Clicker, who's=20 learning so much from this list 
   
------=_NextPart_000_013F_01BF1FD1.402D4DC0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:57:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ellauri, Mrs. Amanda C." Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01BF1FC2.73B5C6F4" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1FC2.73B5C6F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Look for MULTITES, it is a very good software for doing so... -----Original Message----- From: Alan Walker [mailto:alan.walker@S054.AONE.NET.AU] Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:35 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for databases At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon wrote: >I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that will be used on a database that will be placed on the web. I've been looking for resources dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but haven't found much. Can anybody recommend anything? Start by looking at This site is the full bottle on anything to do with thesaurus construction. Invaluable. Alan -- Alan Walker, Indexer President, Australian Society of Indexers 10 Rockwall Crescent Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia Tel: +61 2 9368 0174 +61 2 9368 0176 Fax: +61 2 9358 5593 Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1FC2.73B5C6F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: thesaurus construction for databases

Look for MULTITES, it is a very good software for = doing so...

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Walker [mailto:alan.walker@S054.AON= E.NET.AU]
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 3:35 AM
To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: thesaurus construction for = databases


At 01:42 pm 25/10/99 -0700, Natalie Boon = wrote:
>I'm currently beginning work on a thesaurus that = will be used on a
database that will be placed on the web.  I've = been looking for resources
dealing with thesauri and indexing databases, but = haven't found much.  Can
anybody recommend anything?

Start by looking at <http://www.willpower.demon.co.uk>

This site is the full bottle on anything to do with = thesaurus construction.
Invaluable.

Alan

--

Alan Walker, Indexer
President, Australian Society of Indexers
10 Rockwall Crescent
Potts Point NSW 2011, Australia
Tel: +61 2 9368 0174  +61 2 9368 0176
Fax: +61 2 9358 5593
Email: alan.walker@s054.aone.net.au

------_=_NextPart_001_01BF1FC2.73B5C6F4-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 16:05:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: clenser@MCP.COM Subject: building freelance pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals, MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists. Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects. If you are interested, please send your resume to: New Riders Publishing 201 W. 103rd Street Indianapolis, IN 46290 ATTN: Cheryl Lenser or email your resume as an attached Word document to clenser@mcp.com. Thank you, Cheryl Lenser New Riders Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:17:26 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JAbbott916@AOL.COM Subject: Re: beating me up MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Darkroom no problem. Write back if you want details. John ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 17:20:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: methods & efficiency In-Reply-To: <000001bf1fee$ac73a200$0300000a@0rqfz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:14 PM 10/26/99 -0700, Charles Anderson wrote: >I've been very satisfied with Dragon Naturally Speaking Preferred for the >Pentium III. Training took about 10 minutes and accuracy is quite high. I >do find, though, that it's obviously not as effective with an index with >lots of unusual personal names or complex terms. For general subjects, >though, I estimate it reduces my entry time by about 30%. > >Charles R. Anderson Hi All: Has anyone tried the medical component to Dragon yet? If so, what was your reactions? Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:27:01 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: Re: How best to word alphabetically arranged subheadings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Stout, Robert, _12_; on academic leadership, 57; administration building >named after, 111; as chancellor, 30; as Council chairman, 381; on extension >(correspondence) classes, 21; and government scientific establishment, 13, >20, 50, 161; as Hockey Club president, 82; memorial window unveiling, 49; >and music (on music?), 380; on reform, 30-1, 32, 33, 34, 38; specialisation >scheme, 22; on Sunday tennis, 80; vision of 'people's university', 15, 315; >Wellington university college proposal, 13-14 Many thanks to Michael Brackney for his reworking of this entry. Some of the leading prepositions won't do, but then Michael doesn't have the book in front of him as I have. The general principles he puts forward seem to me perfectly sound. The reference to music on p. 380 is just another example of Stout's frugal mind at work. Just as he hoped to get government scientists to do some teaching of science on the cheap, so also he thought there might be a possibility of gaining the services of the city organist to teach music: "the organist would also be the professor of music, while the City would pay his salary". (Nothing came of this bright idea.) Really sometimes I despair of the arbitrariness of subject headings and subheadings (especially the latter). This subheading might conceivably be phrased in any of the following ways: "on music teaching", "conservatorium proposal", "city organist proposed as music professor", "on collaboration with city council", or "parsimoniousness" (with many more locators than this one); and no doubt there are several other possibilities. There are words in the text to justify any of these as index terms, except "parsimoniousness". I think "on music teaching" is probably the best choice among those I've been able to think of. Simon Cauchi, Hamilton, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 08:10:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Re: building freelance pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D0F093763AA608B01BFCB38B" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D0F093763AA608B01BFCB38B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CA111268ABEC59ACB1415596" --------------CA111268ABEC59ACB1415596 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning, Cheryl: I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion in the New Riders freelance pool. I am an experienced embedded indexer of computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and I have recently begun working for IDG. In addition, I am co-editor of a book on computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published this month by ITT publications. I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker, but would be willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there was sufficient promise of work). I am also able to convert Word-embedded document to Quark format. I am attaching my resume. You can also check out my Web site at http:www.dianebrenner.com. Sincerely, Diane Brenner clenser@MCP.COM wrote: > New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing > pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be > considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes > intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals, > MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists. > > Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word > and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under > tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects. > > If you are interested, please send your resume to: > > New Riders Publishing > 201 W. 103rd Street > Indianapolis, IN 46290 > ATTN: Cheryl Lenser > > or email your resume as an attached Word document to > clenser@mcp.com. > > Thank you, > Cheryl Lenser > New Riders Publishing --------------CA111268ABEC59ACB1415596 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning, Cheryl:

I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion in the New Riders freelance pool.  I am an experienced embedded indexer of computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and I have recently begun working for IDG.  In addition, I am co-editor of a book on computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published this month by ITT publications.  I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker, but would be willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there was sufficient promise of work).  I am also able to convert Word-embedded document to Quark format.

I am attaching my resume.  You can also check out my Web site at http:www.dianebrenner.com.

Sincerely,

Diane Brenner

clenser@MCP.COM wrote:

        New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing
pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be
considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes
intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals,
MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists.

        Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word
and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine.  We work under
tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects.

        If you are interested, please send your resume to:

        New Riders Publishing
        201 W. 103rd Street
        Indianapolis, IN 46290
        ATTN: Cheryl Lenser

        or email your resume as an attached Word document to
clenser@mcp.com.

        Thank you,
        Cheryl Lenser
        New Riders Publishing

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AAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAA/v////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////wEA/v8DCgAA/////wYJ AgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYYAAAATWljcm9zb2Z0IFdvcmQgRG9jdW1lbnQACgAAAE1TV29yZERv YwAQAAAAV29yZC5Eb2N1bWVudC44APQ5snEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --------------D0F093763AA608B01BFCB38B-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:48:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: How to search the archives easily URLs corrected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are much, much easier ways to search the index-l archives - especially when you have the correct URLs. Thanks to Deborah Patton for telling me to wipe the egg off my face, and tell you the two URLs are **supposed to be different** so delete the previous version of this message. To search the archives prior to April 1999 go to http://www.indexpup.com/index-list/index.html Fill in the little boxes and click the search button. To search the archives after April 1999, when the list moved to a internet-savvy server, go to http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html and click on the "search the archives" link fill in the little boxes, and click the "start the search" button. I have these two URLs in my bookmark file, labeled appropriately. Makes searching the archives a breeze and I don't have to keep emailing the listserver with programming commands in an arcane language. Happy hunting, Shelley Greenhouse database indexer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Pate, Pat" Subject: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain A question for users of Naturally Speaking - I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index) where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)? Pat Pate Ref. Libn. Univ. of Houston Clear Lake patep@cl.uh.edu Voice 281-283-3913 Fax 281-283-3937 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 10:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Attn: listowner RE: building freelance pool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listowner: Other lists have defaulted the Reply button to go to a single person, and the Reply to All button to go the list. Yet index-l uses Reply to go to the list, which results in a lot of erroneous postings like this one. Any way to fix? Karen Field Sr. Technical Writer Stellcom, Inc. kfield@stellcom.com -----Original Message----- From: Diane Brenner [mailto:dbrenner@JAVANET.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 5:10 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: building freelance pool Good morning, Cheryl: I saw your notice on Index-L and would like to be considered for inclusion in the New Riders freelance pool. I am an experienced embedded indexer of computer books; my long-term clients include Macmillan and Wrox, and I have recently begun working for IDG. In addition, I am co-editor of a book on computer-based indexing (Beyond Book Indexing), to be published this month by ITT publications. I work in Word (I do not own Framemaker, but would be willing to purchase it and learn to embed using it if there was sufficient promise of work). I am also able to convert Word-embedded document to Quark format. I am attaching my resume. You can also check out my Web site at http:www.dianebrenner.com . Sincerely, Diane Brenner clenser@MCP.COM wrote: New Riders Publishing is looking to expand its freelance indexing pool and is interested in hearing from anyone who would like to be considered for addition to the freelance contact list. New Riders publishes intermediate- to high-level computer books for networking professionals, MCSE candidates, and Web page/graphic design specialists. Anyone interested must be able to do embedded indexing in Word and/or Framemaker. Either PC or Macintosh platform is fine. We work under tight deadlines and expect quick turnaround on our projects. If you are interested, please send your resume to: New Riders Publishing 201 W. 103rd Street Indianapolis, IN 46290 ATTN: Cheryl Lenser or email your resume as an attached Word document to clenser@mcp.com. Thank you, Cheryl Lenser New Riders Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:22:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Robert A. Saigh" Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat: My understanding is that you would say: "Landscape in winter comma (and spell) Z-m-i-j-e-w-s-k-i." You might have to say "cap L" for the capital L. I will find out more this weekend as I more thoroughly test Naturally Speaking. Try contacting them at 617-965-5200. Rob -- Razorsharp Communications, Inc. Robert A. Saigh, President 6482 Lloyd Avenue Saint Louis, MO 63139-3445 314.781.4731 (voice/fax) fugleman@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:57:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Diane Brenner Subject: Culpas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies for being too quick on the trigger finger this morning and sending my cv to the list. I knew that I had erred the instant the message was sent, but hoped that my error would fade into the cyber miasma unnoticed. No such luck. So I apologize to those of you who were unnecessarily subjected to my marketing effort, and my thanks to those of you who were kind enough to point out some typos. I appreciate the feedback. Diane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 12:55:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 10/27/1999 11:42 AM Pate, Pat wrote (in part): >I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index) >where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and >composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title >(Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)? I do not use Naturally Speaking. My wife does, for medical transcription. While this also won't answer your question directly, I'd like to point out that there are two distinct types of speech recognition systems: continuous and discrete. Naturally Speaking is a continuous speech recognition system and works best with full sentences with no pauses between words. Dragon Dictate is a discrete speech recognition system that works one word at a time with pauses between words. I would think it would be more suited for indexing applications than Naturally Speaking, but again I am not a user. I know that when Naturally Speaking encounters a word it doesn't know (and it's a good guess it doesn't know Zmijewski) it takes its best shot at it and you then have to correct it, I believe by typing it in and repeating the word a couple of times. If it "hears" the same word later, it should be able to handle it. One thing I've seen often on the list is the query as to how speech recognition would handle complex acronyms, for instance WYSIWYG. I've asked my wife about that and she says that you can invent a pronunciation, spell it out for the program, and henceforth it will be a part of the vocabulary. So if you say wizzywig consistently, you'll consistently get WYSIWYG. It's simply a matter of deciding on a pronunciation of the acronym that you can remember. Hope this helps. Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com http://lastword.home.mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 11:15:37 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <381734EF.B7B3114F@mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use Naturally Speaking in its own word processing mode - not in Word or Cindex. In the example you give, I would say "Cap Landscape in winter comma" and then type the name which would be faster than spelling it out in Rob's example. Then you would say "tab key" and the page number and then "new line" The tab key command puts the page number into a separate field for CINDEX. If you wanted all letters capitalized, you would say "Caps on" followed by the phrase then "Caps off." Alternatively you could just say it and then highlight the phrase and say "format that initial caps." I'm continually surprised by the number of words that are already in the vocabulary. If Zmijewski were going to appear more than once, you can also train Naturally Speaking to recognize it the next time, or train it to insert that when you give an abbreviation. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com > My understanding is that you would say: "Landscape in winter comma > (and spell) Z-m-i-j-e-w-s-k-i." You might have to say "cap L" for the > capital L. > > I will find out more this weekend as I more thoroughly test > Naturally Speaking. Try contacting them at 617-965-5200. > > Rob > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:55:46 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] As no further suggestions have turned up, I'd like to suggest that we adopt Jon's terms for the three levels: > global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites > local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site > Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three. Can we agree on those? -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:12:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat, It is very easy to dictate with Dragon and when you come to a term that you don't want to add to your dictionaries, just type the term in, and then continue dictation. You will still realize major efficiency gains using Dragon! Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com Pate, Pat wrote: > > A question for users of Naturally Speaking - > > I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index) > where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and > composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title > (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)? > > Pat Pate > Ref. Libn. > Univ. of Houston Clear Lake > patep@cl.uh.edu > Voice 281-283-3913 > Fax 281-283-3937 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:11:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat, You can stop dictating at any time and begin typing - the cursor will be at the end of the last word you have dictated. Therefore, you could pause dictating and type in names, but if you are going to use the same name more than a couple of times, you can train the program to recognise it as Craig Brown has already posted. Ann Ann Truesdale anntrue@mindspring.com > A question for users of Naturally Speaking - > > I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index) > where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and > composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title > (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)? > > Pat Pate > Ref. Libn. > Univ. of Houston Clear Lake > patep@cl.uh.edu > Voice 281-283-3913 > Fax 281-283-3937 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:43:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Bidding for CD-ROM index MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors' Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs so I'm anxious to see what you have to say. Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for your help. Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca Question: A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a few lines I'd like some help with. 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:19:39 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been interested in trying Dragon, but I'd have to train myself out of the habit of thinking out loud -- or, occasionally, arguing with the text vociferously. Has anyone who uses Dragon for index entry found it difficult to restrict their speech to index entries? Also, how does it handle unexpected conversations (e.g., one's daughter wanders into the room talking to or for her stuffed dog, or one's cat decides that he absolutely, positively must be on one's desk this instant)? And how easy is it to turn it off if the phone rings? On a more indexing-specific note, how easy is it to edit what one has entered? For instance, if you dictated "automobiles. See cars" 20 minutes ago, and have now realized that the author uses "cars" more often than "automobiles," is it easy to go back and change that? I do a lot of editing on the fly, which saves me both time and headaches at the end (when I may be too tired to remember that I wanted to change "automobiles" to "cars" as a main heading.) I'm intrigued by the increase in efficiency that some of you have found with Dragon, but I'm not sure I want to give up my editing capability. TIA, Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ---------- > From: Susan Olason > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking > Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 4:12 PM > > Pat, > > It is very easy to dictate with Dragon and when you come to a term that > you don't want to add to your dictionaries, just type the term in, and > then continue dictation. You will still realize major efficiency gains > using Dragon! > > Susan Olason > Indexes & Knowledge Maps > 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com > > Pate, Pat wrote: > > > > A question for users of Naturally Speaking - > > > > I work on book-length indexes (Popular Song Index; World Painting Index) > > where titles of works are usually in common English words but painters and > > composers names are something else. How easy would it be to read in a title > > (Landscape in winter) and type in the painter's name (Zmijewski)? > > > > Pat Pate > > Ref. Libn. > > Univ. of Houston Clear Lake > > patep@cl.uh.edu > > Voice 281-283-3913 > > Fax 281-283-3937 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:22:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Info on a Packager Hi Everyone, I'm wondering if anyone on the list has done work for the packager PageMasters & Company, based in Boston. I'd like to know if your experience with them was positive or negative, and who your point of contact was. Thank you, - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 15:36:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Kara, Dragon does not seem to pick up extra conversations in the same room. But Dragon will pick up anything you say, whether it is meaningful or not (grin). When someone calls on the phone, I just click Dragon off by clicking the microphone icon. As for editing your Dragon entries (if you are using Dragon to create a text file) just dictate your Dragon edit commands, like Move up/back # lines, Select word, Dictate new word. It's hard to give you a sense of editing commands in Dragon, but they are intuitive, you can move easily around a document. I have found that I get the best efficiency gains from Dragon by restricting Dragon just for input of index entries, creating a text file that I import into my indexing software. For substantial editing, I use my indexing software. And remember, Dragon works directly with some indexing software (Macrex and SkyIndex, I believe), so you could use Dragon to also execute indexing software commands. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 303-973-5705 or email:oleduke@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:43:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you who are using it. Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the Professional is very expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers? Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:47:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use the preferred version, and it works fine. I have very problems with it, aside from missing some things when proofreading. For example, it can spell out page numbers instead of putting numerals in if you're not paying attention. You can just hit the "plus" key on the number pad quickly to turn it off if you wish to carry on a conversation with your spouse, child, or others. If I forget, I have gotten some garbled messages on the screen, but they're easy to delete. I dictate directly into the Dragon WP program and then import the text file into Cindex. I have no problems with that at all. On the other hand, it was not useful at all on one of the last indexes I did--there were a ton of Asian names. So I elected to input by hand. Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 18:46:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <38177E6A.C73551AA@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi All: At 03:36 PM 10/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >John and Kara, > >Dragon does not seem to pick up extra conversations in the same room. >But Dragon will pick up anything you say, whether it is meaningful or >not (grin). When someone calls on the phone, I just click Dragon off by >clicking the microphone icon. Just don't have a parakeet in a cage next to your computer work station. If you leave your computer with Dragon on while you do something else, you'll find gibberish on your screen when you return. Willa (sorry....I couldn't resist...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:05:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dalindex@AOL.COM Subject: Publisher Needs Help MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just spoke with Heather, managing editor, at Conari Press. She needs an indexer, available immediately, who has Quark (Mac) and can write an index in Quark (I hope I am explaining this right). The manuscript is on disk. If any of you can help her, please contact her at e-mail: hmcarthur@conari.com. Thank you, Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 17:06:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, I have been using Dragon Preferred for over 2 years and have been VERY happy with it. I can input about 100 pages per hour which is a MAJOR improvement since I am an extremely bad typist and speller. Not only has Dragon improved my input efficiency, it has also improved my editing efficiency since index entries are spelled correctly. Dragon also frees your hands to handle page proofs, and since I input directly from page proofs, this is great for me. I use different users for the different subjects I index in, therefore I have built subject dictionaries for computers, gardening, horses.... You can build these dictionaries from existing indexes or other documents. Also you can create dictation shorthands. For example, I dictate a common plant name and Dragon inputs that common name along with the botanical name, which I never could pronounce (grin). You could use these dictation shorthands for any complex scientific term or for any term that you use frequently. If you travel, you may want to look at the extra capability that allows you to dictate into a tape recorder. Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com SHughes512@AOL.COM wrote: > > This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you who are using it. > Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The > Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the Professional is very > expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers? > Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 16:12:25 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <0.3ae4cfd1.2548cbf3@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am using Preferred for the Pentium III (It is supposedly optimized for the new instruction set on the Pentium III chip). > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of > SHughes512@AOL.COM > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 2:43 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking > > > This is a great topic. I have a question for those of you > who are using it. > Which version are you using? There seems to be several levels. The > Preferred and the Professional look useful, but the > Professional is very > expensive. Would the Preferred work for indexers? > Sharon > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:23:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a fascinating topic. I think that all of us indexers would like to remove some of the drudgery (and sore hands) from the data entry component and improve our speed (time=money). So, with that in mind, I have a couple of questions/comments. 1.) If it works with Macrex and Sky, why not Cindex? Is there something that the first two have, but not the latter. Can this be remedied? 2.) Would anyone who uses it be willing to dictate a sample and post it here, unedited? We can choose a reference source for comparison of punctuation, spelling, etc. This would be a valuable demonstration of its usefulness (or not). I'd suggest reading from the index to _Indexing Books_ or perhaps some online source that we can all check? Or maybe an article in _The Indexer_ ? 3.) Dick, are you paying attention (for Albuquerque)? Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Olason To: Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking edited... > I have found that I get the best efficiency gains from Dragon by > restricting Dragon just for input of index entries, creating a text file > that I import into my indexing software. For substantial editing, I use > my indexing software. And remember, Dragon works directly with some > indexing software (Macrex and SkyIndex, I believe), so you could use > Dragon to also execute indexing software commands. > > Susan Olason > Indexes & Knowledge Maps > 303-973-5705 or email:oleduke@ix.netcom.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Methods & efficiency/ Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <011901bf20d2$5a11cc00$4f42b6d1@iwillp3450> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > >3.) Dick, are you paying attention (for Albuquerque)? Hi All: Actually, there was a discussion on Dragon at the meeting in Indianapolis which got a positive response. At least there were a lot of questions asked after the main presentatio on Saturday morning. If Dragon is included in the conference in Albuquerque, I think it would be helpful to have a demo, rather than just a discussion. The talk was an excellent starting point for everyone, but a demonstration would answer a lot of questions. And perhaps someone who uses Dragon with either Cindex or Sky would be willing to demonstrate for those of us who have had problems trying to make the two programs work together. Willa (who wonders what technology will be discussing next on this list....) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith W. Kip" Subject: Re Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have been using Dragon Preferred version 4 for about six weeks. I want= ed the most recent version and ordered it from their web site. I may have paid slightly more than at a discount store, but the stores in upstate N= ew York did not have the most recent version (and still don't) and that's wh= at I wanted. I am very happy with it. I use it with Sky Index and am learning the most efficient ways to enter versus edit. I am a sloppy typist and using Dragon is a great help for consistent spelling. I have been amazed at the words it know --especiall= y names . Judy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Judith W. Kip Indexing Owego, New York = JudithKip@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:04:09 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: Info on a Packager MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Susan, Would you believe that one of the three indexes I have done so far was a book on computer animation for this packager. My experience was negative in that 1) they were late in getting me the proofs, 2) Lesley did not answer my phone or e-mail queries (whether about the index itself or my payment) in a timely fashion or sometimes not at all, 3) it took over 45 days for payment to arrive. 4) I asked for, but did not receive acknowledgement that they received the index. I don't know if others would consider this a bad experience or not. I would probably work for them again if asked at this early stage of my indexing career. Hope this helps and you are doing well. I received general indexing instructions from CRC, but haven't heard anything about work yet. I will probably call them next week. Ms Jaffe (I forgot her first name) said my resume and sample indexes looked fine. Nina Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service 505-856-9166 e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com -----Original Message----- From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 3:25 PM Subject: Info on a Packager >Hi Everyone, > > I'm wondering if anyone on the list has done work for the packager >PageMasters & Company, based in Boston. > > I'd like to know if your experience with them was positive or >negative, and who your point of contact was. > > >Thank you, > >- Susan > > >*************************************** >Susan Danzi Hernandez >BookEnd Indexing >susanhernandez@juno.com >(316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:12:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Mea culpa from another person MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, I just made the same mistake that many others have by sending a personal answer to the entire list. Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. Nina Nina Forrest Looking Up Indexing Service 505-856-9166 e-mail: ninaf@mindspring.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 19:20:14 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max Dalrymple Subject: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using (TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the same I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?" Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all they need to do to protect their trademark. Max Dalrymple, MLS (I index the rest of this week!) mdalry@sr66.com http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 20:24:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Linda Sutherland wrote: > > > global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites > > local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site > > Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file > > plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three. > > Can we agree on those? I'm not trying to be negative, here, but I still think these terms are shaky, partly because they overload terms already in use: "Global index" implies "the entire Web" (like Yahoo or AltaVista). How about "multiple-site index" or some such? "Local index" implies "not available on the Web" (like an intranet). How about "single-site index" or just "site index"? As for "Web page index," I still can't imagine creating an index for a single web page--if the page is that big, it probably ought to be broken up into more useable chunks. Finally, "Web index" doesn't cover any of the other uses of HTML--intranets, help files, and so on. Why not use terms that describe the subject on which we're writing in a particular context? Examples include "hypertext index," "HTML index," "Help index," "WinHelp index," "back-of-the-book style index," "HTML Help index," "JavaHelp index," and so on? I would prefer specificity to generalities that have to further qualified in context. (I'm not trying to negative--honest!) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3, still the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 23:26:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/27/99 9:30:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ninaf@MINDSPRING.COM writes: << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> This list is set up the way most lists are and the way most of us are used to. We all make mistakes occasionally and it will happen no matter which direction the list is set up. There will be much more confusion if it is changed than if it is left alone. Bill Lee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:12:36 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Re Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <199910272038_MC2-8AAD-8B94@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can Dragon handle European accents? (I'm referring to grave, acute, umlaut, and so on; my own accent is generic Canadian.) Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 01:53:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The city of Denver owns the trademark for a product??? I don't think that I have ever heard of this before. I know that the federal government is prohibited from copyrighting their publications and from directly owning patents. (I know that this law has been violated in the past.) Assuming that this is true, let your editor know that the term is a trademark and strongly suggest that the trademark symbol follow the word directly (no space) where it appears in the index. The publisher is ultimately responsible for this, not the indexer. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 06:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Melissa Moore <55742@PEACHNET.CAMPUSCWIX.NET> Subject: Introduction and Questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi. My name is Melissa. I am a recently retired librarian looking to enter the field of freelance indexing. I truly enjoy this work and have a couple of questions: 1. What organizations do you advise me to join besides ASI? 2. How do you feel the field looks for new indexers, meaning the amount of work available? 3. Do you recommend the course offered by USDA? 4. This is the hard question. How do you find clients? My background is varied. I hold a B.A. in English. My library experience mostly revolves around cataloging items in medicine and computer science. Thank you. Melissa Moore ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:28:22 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3817C1F5.54611A78@brown-inc.com> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > (I'm not trying to negative--honest!) I understand and accept that. I wasn't trying to be negative when I commented on others' suggestions, either, though I did worry that it might seem so. But I work on the premise that, in a group of intelligent and civilised adults, it ought to be possible to offer constructive criticism, listen to that offered by others, reflect, argue amicably and, if they seem justified, take new ideas on board. I don't believe anyone has a monopoly on wisdom, particularly when breaking new ground, as we're doing here. There's food for thought in what you say, but unfortunately I don't have time today to give it that thought. I'll reply again when I've found the time. -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:00:38 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having just completed 2 indexes which include the term "xeriscape," I was moved to check the government's online database of trademarks (registered and pending), which could be missing some, of course, but they show no trademarks with the word "xeriscape." Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:21:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry for a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the trademark indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes (p. 138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor requests it. Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark indication in the index? Cheers, Mary -- * Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com * Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas * Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 * American Society of Indexers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:28:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ruth V Laningham Subject: Machine-aided indexing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good morning indexers -- Most of us have agreed that totally automated indexing is a bad thing. But does anybody out there use machine-*aided* indexing for a bibliographic database? In machine-aided indexing the computer identifies words in a document that are likely to be indexable, then returns a list of authorized subject terms from a controlled vocabulary. A human indexer accepts or rejects candidates from the list. The human can also add terms not suggested by the computer. I understand this is the way _Chemical Abstracts_ is done. (It probably wouldn't work for back-of-the-book indexing.) Does anybody have any experience with this? If so, what software do you use and what do you think of it? Or is there a more appropriate list for this question? Ruth laninghamr.oimc@gao.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:49:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Dragon Naturally Speaking We have been using the Preferred edition here at Lexis Publishing for a few months now and are very happy with it. To answer a few of the questions: 1) Why Preferred? The short answer is, "Price." There is a legal dictionary that you can get with the Professional edition, but we didn't think that the extra cost justified the convenience, and we have found that training the program to recognize legal terminology is not particularly difficult. 2) Can you use the keyboard easily? Yes, absolutely. We use the keyboard almost continuously because we don't reference to page numbers, but rather to code section numbers. The problem is that reference format of some of the codes can get quite Byzantine, for example: Illinois: 225: 705/34.01 Maryland: TR §21-10A-01 New York: Agr & M § 20 Virginia: §46.2-746.11:8 Needless to say, we don't want to have to dictate anything that looks like THAT! :-) 3) Editing considerations. Yes, there are some errors that we have learned to look for and recognize as "voice recognition errors." For example the number 55 may come out "5 the 5" and if you are dictating punctuation, you may notice several phrases that end with the word "common" rather than a comma. You quickly learn to recognize them for what they are and fix them. 4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent. Of our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern Virginia drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwestern accent, and it hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all pronouncing them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be a problem. All in all, it's a great time saver, especially for some of our senior indexers who aren't adept at keying but are used to using a dictaphone-- their speed and accuracy has improved dramatically. Hope this helps. Sharon Wright Sharon.Wright@lexis-nexis.com LEXIS Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:56:48 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry for > a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the trademark > indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes (p. > 138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor > requests it. > > Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark > indication in the index? I have included it, not for company names but for trademarked products (Xerox Corporation, but FrisbeeTM.) Generally, I look at the text; if the trademark is included with the product there (which I gather it should be), I use it in the index. I have occasionally alerted editors to the fact that something *is* trademarked, and let them make the decision as to whether to include the trademark in the text and index. Sometimes people just don't realize that the name is trademarked. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:06:46 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judi Alamia Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Definitely important to acknowledge trademarks. I work for attorneys, so I may be a bit more sensitive to this than others, but I know it can cost tens of thousands of dollars to research and then register a trademark. For a multimillion dollar company like Xerox, this is peanuts, of course, and they can run million dollar ads to remind people about their trademark, but for smaller companies, not so easy--they may not have the advertising budget, especially when they are just starting out. I know that words eventually get turned over to the language (note kleenex and aspirin), but IMHO, we are still obligated to note a TM or R and let the publisher know if they've neglected to include it in the text. Judi -----Original Message----- From: Max Dalrymple [mailto:mdalry@SR66.COM] Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 9:20 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Xeriscape(TM) The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using (TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the same I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?" Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all they need to do to protect their trademark. Max Dalrymple, MLS (I index the rest of this week!) mdalry@sr66.com http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:08:22 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D826FF@LNXCHOEXCH01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Wright, Sharon F. wrote: > 4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent. Of > our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern Virginia > drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwesternaccent, and it > hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform > pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all pronouncing > them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular > pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their > software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be a > problem. My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to recognize accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with French, German and Scandinavian accents. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) In-Reply-To: <0.b2fbc9ad.2549a7c9@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >On the issue of including the trademark symbol or (TM) in the index entry for >a trademarked term: It has been my practice to *not* include the trademark >indication in indexes. I just checked Mulvany, and found that she writes (p. >138) that the general practice is to not include it, unless the editor >requests it. > >Do any of you include the trademark, service mark or registered mark >indication in the index? > >Cheers, >Mary >-- >* Mary Mortensen * marymort@aol.com >* Indexing services * Lawrence, Kansas >* Publicity Committee Chair, * 785-841-3631 >* American Society of Indexers When I index supply catalogs, the client often asks me to do this on the index entry that is the trademarked product name. In regular text, usually not. Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:17:24 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> A lot of times, this is a function of your mail program, not the list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set how you want to handle this. HTH. Elaine Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:35:04 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls) uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is there. Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: > << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other > lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to > all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> > > > A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the > list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set > how you want to handle this. > > HTH. > > Elaine > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:53:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Wright, Sharon F." Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking If we can train it to recognize mispronounced Latin phrases, I think you can train it to recognize just about anything. I'm not trying to be flip, but honestly, I don't think it would be a problem. You would train it to recognize the name the same way that you would train it to recognize any other word that isn't already in the dictionary. > -----Original Message----- > From: mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL [SMTP:mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL] > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 9:08 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Wright, Sharon F. wrote: > > 4) Accents. Since the program learns your voice it learns your accent. > Of > > our Indexers who are currently using it, one has a very southern > Virginia > > drawl and another has a very distinct northern/midwesternaccent, and it > > hasn't had a problem with either. And since there is no uniform > > pronunciation for most of the Latin legal phrases, they are all > pronouncing > > them differently and the program is keyed to that person's particular > > pronunciation. As for foreign words and phrases, Dragon makes their > > software in several different languages, so I don't think that would be > a > > problem. > > My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to recognize > accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I > would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with > French, German and Scandinavian accents. > > Avital > > Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 > Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 > Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University > http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:21:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I can change the setting to reply-to-sender. However, that does not make sense. This is a discussion list, and most replies will be to the list. Personal replies are not a huge problem here. And I think we can tolerate the occaisonal slip. Just be careful out there...8-) Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator mspinnik@MSCC.HUJI.AC.IL wrote: > It's also a function of how the list is set up. I'm most familiar with > majordomo, since that's what my list (Orion list for Dead Sea Scrolls) > uses, but most software allows the list owner to change the default reply > function to either "reply to sender" or "reply to list." Newer lists such > as the ones cropping up on Onelist.com are nearly idiotproof (they give > you the settings and that's that, or only a limited number of choices) but > older lists require more fiddling. Whether a particular list owner knows > how to change the configuration depends solely on his or her knowledge of > the software and access to outside technical support but the choice is > there. > > Avital > > Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-1230 > Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 > Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University > http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly. > > On Thu, 28 Oct 1999, Elaine R. Firestone wrote: > > > << Someone mentioned in a recent posting that other > > lists have a way of replying to the entire list only when using Reply to > > all. I put in another vote for that if the powers that be can do it. >> > > > > > > A lot of times, this is a function of your mailprogram, not the > > list. In Eudora, there is a setting "Reply to all:" and then you set > > how you want to handle this. > > > > HTH. > > > > Elaine > > > > Elaine R. Firestone, ELS > > elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov > > -- Charlotte Skuster Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer Binghamton University Science Library P. O. Box 6012 Binghamton, NY 13902-6012 Phone: (607) 777-4122 Fax: (607) 777-2274 skuster@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:24:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "HEALY.SUSAN" Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) Comments: To: Max Dalrymple MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Max and others, When the Florida Legislature passed legislation several years ago regarding Xeriscape landscaping, our indexing staff pondered why the word was capitalized. We learned that the term was a registered trademark. Since that time we have continued to capitalize it in all occurrences in our indexes, however we do not include the TM symbol. Susan Healy Fla. Legislature Division of Statutory Revision ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Xeriscape(TM) Author: "Max Dalrymple" [SMTP:mdalry@SR66.COM] at HSE-EXCH Date: 10/27/99 9:20 PM The mention of indexing gardening books prompts me to remark: I've been writing about Xeriscape (TM) at suite101.com and I have noticed that Denver Colorado owns the word xeriscape as a trademark. I write about it in my first article, but so far everyone tends to underplay this fact, not using (TM) with the word, for example. Since I know indexers are word people and like to be precise I thought I'd see if the reaction of this list is the same I've repeatedly received: "Do you think it's important?" Would you mention it to a publisher if you saw the word in your index? If I remember correctly, Xerox had to run a lot of ads to tell people Xerox is a trademark and not a public domain word for photo-copying. I suspect that the City of Colorado ("The City That Owns a Word") may need to do so eventually. They appear to feel that since they aren't allowing nurseries and yard and garden stores to market "xeriscape plants" they're doing all they need to do to protect their trademark. Max Dalrymple, MLS (I index the rest of this week!) mdalry@sr66.com http://www.suite101.com/join.cfm/51112 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:54:53 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <07F3ED0E0DA7D1119A5B00805FA79A4803D82704@LNXCHOEXCH01> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with Cindex, or is it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor and then export to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it should also work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to have to enter outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in sorted order, and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work. Thanks! Caroline __________________________________________________________ | | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence | | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, | Software documentation, and Online help systems | | Tijeras, NM | 505-286-2738 | cparks@mindspring.com | | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." |_________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: greenhou@EROLS.COM Subject: Re: Changing the Reply function MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who want to, you can change your Index-L subscription parameters to allow your email programs to take care of this. Method one: Go to http://listserv.binghamton.edu/archives/index-l.html click on "join or leave the list (or change settings)" line Fill in the blanks as appropriate, and under mail header style, click to select " sendmail-style" (IETFHDR) Click the "join the list button" . Reply to the confirmation procedure as instructed. Note that from this screen you can change your list options. Following the login procedure also allows you to update your subscription interactively over the Web. Method two: Send a message to: LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu (CUT AND PASTE THIS ADDRESS INTO THE TO: LINE OF YOUR MESSAGE NOW) Leave subject line blank Message is: SET Index-L IETFhdr Send message. The listserver should send you back a message confirming your changes. This header style allows most email programs to see the original sender. Thus, clicking the "Reply" button sends to one person, and "reply to all" sends to that person plus the list. I use this with Netscape's built in email program, and it works. Shelley Greenhouse (been there, done that) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:56:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Max, Susan, and others, Out here in Arizona, xeriscape landscaping is a concept/term frequently used and written about. Interestingly, I've never seen it capitalized, even in our local newspaper's articles. I'm not disputing the fact that it is trademarked term. I *am* pointing out that it appears to be slipping into common parlance, and it will go the way of xerox, kleenex, etc ..... and at least here, it has become part of everyday life, a term with a life of its own. Just pointing out the local usage. Isn't language interesting? Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:43:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > My question is, can the English language version be "trained" to recognize > accents? Or is there another way to enter accents when using Dragon? I > would use an English version but I frequently have to type names with > French, German and Scandinavian accents. I think what Avital means is, Does the English-language version of Dragon recognize and supply diacritical marks, and/or can it be trained to insert them? (Is that what you meant, Avital?) I'm curious about this, too, as I do a fair amount of history and political history. Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 10:28:59 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nina Forrest Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ditto for Albuquerque. -----Original Message----- From: JPerlman@AOL.COM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Thursday, October 28, 1999 10:04 AM Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) >Max, Susan, and others, > >Out here in Arizona, xeriscape landscaping is a concept/term frequently used >and written about. Interestingly, I've never seen it capitalized, even in >our local newspaper's articles. I'm not disputing the fact that it is >trademarked term. I *am* pointing out that it appears to be slipping into >common parlance, and it will go the way of xerox, kleenex, etc ..... and at >least here, it has become part of everyday life, a term with a life of its >own. > >Just pointing out the local usage. Isn't language interesting? > >Janet Perlman >SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 09:47:11 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991028094718.00a1aa40@pop.mindspring.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's not that Naturally Speaking doesn't work with Cindex. It does. For me it's because using it in Cindex is a bit more cumbersome. I don't know how Sky or Macrex handle functions such as Cindex's "Page Down" or "Shift Page Up" for example. To dictate a record directly in Cindex one would say for example: (without the quotes) "Cap Cats new line pet insurance press down arrow 47 press page down" If you wanted to copy the record as well as add you could say at the end rather than "press page down," press shift page up." I haven't been able to find the right words to make it do "Ctrl-+" to swap the entries. The way I work is to dictate about 100-200 records in Dragon, import it into a temporary Cindex file (so I can do some editing in case Dragon chose the wrong word and I missed it), then I import into the main file. I know this sounds a bit cumbersome, but being able to look at the results in a sorted draft file before the records get lost in the whole index is my safety net. Even with all this, I still save about 33% on indexes that aren't using a lot of macros for example or have really bizarre names. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of Caroline Parks > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 8:55 AM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking > > > I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with > Cindex, or is > it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor > and then export > to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it > should also > work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to > have to enter > outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in > sorted order, > and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work. > > Thanks! > > Caroline > __________________________________________________________ > | > | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > | > | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, > | Software documentation, and Online help systems > | > | Tijeras, NM > | 505-286-2738 > | cparks@mindspring.com > | > | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines > can swim." > |_________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:49:38 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] In-Reply-To: <1999102719554672477@zetnet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:55 PM 10/27/99 GMT, Linda Sutherland wrote: >As no further suggestions have turned up, I'd like to suggest that we >adopt Jon's terms for the three levels: > >> global Website indexing: Indexing across many web sites >> local Website indexing: Indexing within one web site >> Web page indexing: Indexing in one HTML file > >plus "Web indexing" as an umbrella term for all three. > >Can we agree on those? P.S. (at the beginning of a message?!) I wrote this reply before seeing David Brown's latest comments, which, as will be obvious, make a lot of sense to me. In view of his comments I've added the aside in the last paragraph. Linda et al.: I have no Web indexing experience but I have been following this thread with interest -- especially since I just got my first web indexing inquiry -- and have been watching for for further suggestions from persons experienced in the field. I was not intending to say anything myself, but now that Linda is asking for agreement on terms I want to make a few comments. To begin with, I don't know whether the "w" in "Web" or "web", or in "Web-this" or "web-that", should always be capitalized. I've used capital "w"s in this message to help make the terms stand out in the text. I liked the sense of the first two terms Linda suggested: "multi-site indexing" and "one-site indexing" (as long as "Web indexing" or "Web site indexing" is understood as the context), but I thought they might be expressed somewhat better as "multiple-site indexing" and "single-site indexing" for short, and as "multiple-Website indexing" and "single-Website indexing" in full. "File indexing" at first sounded too unspecific, but in the context of "Web indexing" or "Web site indexing" it too might work for short, meaning "Web file indexing" in full. (HTML file indexing is broader since it includes files other than Web files, such as help files and CD-ROM files.) I also liked the sense of all of Jon's suggestions: "global Website indexing", "local Website indexing", and "Web page indexing", but on further reflection the term "global", meaning "everywhere", seems too broad to use when no more than "multiple" is meant; and if it be said that "global" _means_ "multiple", then to me "global" would sound like jargon I'd rather avoid. "Web page indexing" sounds good as long as there's no other kind of Web file indexing. If there is, "Web file indexing" would be more inclusive. Thus my untutored preferences so far are: "multiple-Website indexing" ("multiple-site indexing" for short), "single-Website indexing" ("single-site indexing" for short), and -- if there is such a thing -- "Web page indexing" (or possibly "Web file indexing", and "file indexing" for short). Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 530-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:58:54 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding using Dragon with Cindex, I was advised to use Dragon directly and then import the files because it would be faster and more efficient. Dragon works best within Dragon. So what I do is make a separate file for each chapter, import that file into Cindex when I finish each chapter, and keep Cindex open while I'm working. That way I can quickly go back and check any entries I might need. And using Dragon Spanish Edition with Cindex has been a hassle. First of all, I forgot I would have to relearn all the commands in Spanish. And because I'd been using the English edition for a while first, I would automatically say the command in English and have to force myself to switch to Spanish. More importantly, the diacriticals don't transfer over in the file. Fortunately, the "error characters" are quickly recognizable and consistent, so I can do global changes pretty easily. I do this when I am indexing only in Spanish. If it were just a few foreign words or phrases, I'd just type them in unless I felt that I'd be using them a lot. Leslie Frank Frank Words Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:26:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)? ----- Original Message ----- I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors' Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs so I'm anxious to see what you have to say. Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for your help. Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca Question: A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a few lines I'd like some help with. 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:12:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Xeriscape(TM) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elliot asks: > The city of Denver owns the trademark for a product??? I don't think >that I have ever heard of this before. > According to the catalog _A High Country Garden_ written and published in Santa Fe and which specializes in Xeriscape plants (my copy is from 1996): "Some years back the Denver Water Department coined the word 'Xeriscape', from the Greek word _xeri_ for dry, and applied it to the practice of water conservation through creative gardening." The word appears prominently on most of the catalog pages and is not marked with a trademark symbol. It is in caps, but that has more to do with page design. It is a beautiful and very useful publication. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com who finally decided to recreate a longed for English flower garden using plants that mimic flowering habits but are more suitable for the mostly arid climate of eastern Washington State. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 11:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? In-Reply-To: <000f01bf2169$82b13f00$c037c818@videotron.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe no one has responded because without knowing some variables it's difficult to estimate. 1) "Fairly technical" implies what? 10 entries per page? 2) How many pages an hour can you do? 10 for very technical work? 3) How much do you want to earn per hour? $50 for very technical indexing? So with the above parameters: 3000 pages at 10/hour = 300 hours X $50/hr = $15,000; 10 entries/page * 3000 pages = $15,000 divided by $30,000 entries = $.50 per entry. But 5 entries per hour and other numbers above constant = $1/entry. But change any factor and you get a different answer. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)? ----- Original Message ----- I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors' Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs so I'm anxious to see what you have to say. Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for your help. Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca Question: A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a few lines I'd like some help with. 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <0.91ff306e.2549dace@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > That way I can quickly go back and check any >entries I might need. >And using Dragon Spanish Edition with Cindex has been a hassle. First of all, >I forgot I would have to relearn all the commands in Spanish. And because I'd >been using the English edition for a while first, I would automatically say >the command in English and have to force myself to switch to Spanish. More >importantly, the diacriticals don't transfer over in the file. Fortunately, >the "error characters" are quickly recognizable and consistent, so I can do >global changes pretty easily. I do this when I am indexing only in Spanish. >If it were just a few foreign words or phrases, I'd just type them in unless >I felt that I'd be using them a lot. Hi All: It's for discussions like this that I would love to see one or two people demonstrate how they use Dragon with Cindex/Sky/Macrex at the next conference. It's obvious from the discussion that people have adapted the program to meet their specific needs. It would seem as tho' there would be a real interest in seeing how indexers have adapted Dragon into their indexing routine. Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:08:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've never done any CD-ROM indexing, but I find a per-entry charge is usually the fairest way to get paid for an index, particularly a large one. Per-page billing is not possible with a CD-ROM, and a per hour rate would be difficult to calculate. Another factor is what kind of software will you use. Some dedicated software like Cindex or Framemaker, or will you create the index in Word or some other format. These are things I would think about when making your estimates. Diana Witt Cournoyer wrote: > No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors' > Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs > so I'm anxious to see what you have to say. > Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for > your help. > Linda Cardella Cournoyer > cardella@videotron.ca > > Question: > A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a > request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a > few lines I'd like some help with. > > 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in > this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space > isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many > entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 14:10:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I forgot to add: The current per entry rate in the US is between $.65 and $.75 cents per entry, depending on the subject matter, how much time you have, etc. Diana Witt Cournoyer wrote: > No one has an answer for my post (from yesterday)? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > I have been asked to post this question for someone from the Editors' > Association of Canada list. I have no experience with indexing for CD-ROMs > so I'm anxious to see what you have to say. > Please respond to this list and I'll forward all the answers. Thanks for > your help. > Linda Cardella Cournoyer > cardella@videotron.ca > > Question: > A firm I'm associated with is bidding on a book, and has been sent a > request for estimate. They've asked me to help them out, and there are a > few lines I'd like some help with. > > 2. Index preparation @ ____ per entry. Is it usual to charge an index in > this way? If the MS is 3000 pages and fairly technical, and if space > isn't a consideration since the thing will be on CD-ROM, how many > entries might I expect, and how much would I charge per entry? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 12:41:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been following this discussion with great interest, but have been unwilling to pay the $199 price for the latest version. So I checked eBay, and there are about 70 new-in-box copies of the Preferred edition (versions range from 2.0 to 3.5), for prices ranging from $10-$50. There are also a number of editions of the Professional version, the USB version, etc. For those of you who have not used eBay for purchases before, I can recommend it based on about six months worth of both buying and selling. I've had a very few less-than-perfect experiences, but in all cases have been able to get the matter settled to my satisfaction. Somebody mentioned that they bought Dragon Preferred direct from its website in order to get the most recent version. Is there any pressing need to have v. 4.0 (the latest), or would 3.5, for instance, work well? I'd be willing to sacrifice some small new feature if I could save about 75% on the purchase price. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 15:53:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Huse@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Denver Water Board on Xeriscape (TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I'm here in Colorado I decided to call the Colorado Water Department (which also responds to Denver Water Board). I was told they do indeed hold the term "xeriscape" as a trademarked term (held under owner's name of Denver Water). When asked about use of the trademark symbol with the term, I was told they request that the term be indicated as trademarked at the first usage in a text, but they would not expect it to be so indicated in the index. Hannah Huse ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 13:56:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Olason Organization: Indexes & Knowledge Maps Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Caroline, I use Dragon with Cindex DOS. You have to create a tab delineated text file and import it into Cindex. I find that this has NOT been a problem or slowed me down, since I use Dragon ONLY for input. I then use Cindex for editing/manipulation of entries. I believe that keystroke shortcuts and macros are faster than dictation when it comes to substantial editing tasks. However, if you are looking to use Dragon for substantial editing or to save hand and wrist stress, I believe that the only indexing software that Dragon directly interfaces with is Macrex or SkyIndex. Could someone confirm that? Susan Olason Indexes & Knowledge Maps 303-973-5705 or email: oleduke@ix.netcom.com Caroline Parks wrote: > > I'm curious to know if anyone is using Dragon directly with Cindex, or is > it really necessary to dictate into Dragon's word processor and then export > to Cindex? It seems that if it works directly with SKY, it should also > work with Cindex.... I don't think I would find it useful to have to enter > outside of Cindex, since I prefer to work with the index in sorted order, > and I use so many of the index-editing functions as I work. > > Thanks! > > Caroline > __________________________________________________________ > | > | Caroline Parks -- Indexcellence > | > | Indexing services for Books, Technical documents, > | Software documentation, and Online help systems > | > | Tijeras, NM > | 505-286-2738 > | cparks@mindspring.com > | > | "Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim." > |_________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:17:12 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: J Flenner Subject: Re: Last (?) word on Xeriscape (TM) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies for this miss-sent email. BTW, about an hour ago I tried the 2nd method of changing my email preferences for reply, and heard nothing back from LISTSERV Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:13:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cournoyer Subject: Re: Bidding for CD-ROM index - No one? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Charles and Diana, A royal thank you! I won't be involved with this project but will pass your answers on to the woman who originally asked the question. I don't know anything about CD-ROM indexing but I'm very interested in learning. I would have thought that a program such as Cindex could not be used to index a CD-ROM and that an HTML program would have to be used. Can someone who has indexed a CD-ROM please tell me what program needs to be used and a tiny bit about the procedure. I don't even know if you get the CD-ROM to work from or the material is given to you in paper form. Your answers will also help me guide the person who originally asked the question since I don't think the company bidding for the job has ever done this either. Many thanks, Linda Cardella Cournoyer cardella@videotron.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:23:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Last call for proposals! In-Reply-To: <199910281559.LAA03967@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you are planning a proposal for the Albuquerque conference, the November 1 deadline looms large. For a refresher on the format of a proposal, go to the ASI Web site at www.asindexing.org and follow the jolly red pepper to the "Call for Proposals" page. Remember, the topics listed are only suggestions. You may submit a proposal on any topic that interests you. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:30:07 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith McQuay Subject: Working from PDF files Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A while back a client sent me a book in PDF format. Yuk I thought and immediately had a printout made at the copy shop intending to work from that. Much to my surprise, after the first 50 pages or so I was reading more off the screen and didn't touch the paper after page 100. Since then I've had several more books in PDF and work entirely off-screen, toggling back and forth between Acrobat and Cindex. PDF has become my preferred way of working, followed by paper, followed a distant third by embedded indexing in Quark or Word. I have all the functionality of Cindex plus searching and text copying capability in Acrobat -- it's like the best of both worlds. Do you know if indexing from PDF is common? Is this a beginning trend? (I hope) Keith ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 16:04:58 -0700 Reply-To: anderson@the-indexer.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Dragon Naturally Speaking In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19991028194134.0116674c@slonet.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 3.52 seems to work quite well for me, although DNS claims 99% accuracy for 4.0. They also say it works faster within Word 2000 - I do notice 3.52 is quite slow in that program, but I rarely use DNS with Word anyway. The upgrade price is only $99, so I'll probably upgrade after the first round of bugs are worked out of 4.0. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com PO Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 Voice: 206-985-8799 Fax: 206-985-8796 (fax) Web: http://www.the-indexer.com E-Mail: anderson@the-indexer.com >Somebody mentioned that they bought Dragon Preferred direct >from its website >in order to get the most recent version. Is there any pressing >need to have >v. 4.0 (the latest), or would 3.5, for instance, work well? I'd >be willing >to sacrifice some small new feature if I could save about 75% on the >purchase price. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 18:23:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: quaker1 Subject: Re: Last call for proposals! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick: Do you need a formal proposal for a roundtable disscussion? If so, consider this a formal proposal for a roundtable on the issues facing the Strategic Planning committee. The focus would be on any progress made between the Nov. board meeting and June on the initiatives I will outline at the bd meeting (you'll be getting them this weekend). I would also welcome any intput at that time from conference attendees. This is a little ahead of the game, but as you say, Nov. 1 is looming, and so I want to put this on the table. As you'll see from my SP presentation at the board, I have several ideas based on the material you sent me last summer. Diana Richard Evans wrote: > If you are planning a proposal for the Albuquerque conference, the November > 1 deadline looms large. For a refresher on the format of a proposal, go to > the ASI Web site at www.asindexing.org and follow the jolly red pepper to > the "Call for Proposals" page. > > Remember, the topics listed are only suggestions. You may submit a proposal > on any topic that interests you. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 01:13:26 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3817C1F5.54611A78@brown-inc.com> from "David M. Brown" contains these words: > "Global index" implies "the entire Web" (like Yahoo or AltaVista). How about "multiple-site index" or some such? The definition "indexing across many web sites" would certainly include efforts to index the entire Web, as well as those which cover fewer sites. But I think you mean that "global" implies *only* indexing the whole Web, not any smaller group of sites? If so, then yes, on reflection I think you're right to suggest we avoid the word. I'm happy with your suggested alternative. > "Local index" implies "not available on the Web" (like an intranet). How about "single-site index" or just "site index"? The term actually proposed was "local Website indexing" - the middle word makes it clear that intranets etc. are not included. But you've prompted a thought that hadn't occurred to me till now, namely that "local Website indexing" is quite a long phrase, and it's quite possible that in hurried or casual use people would be inclined to shorten it to "local indexing". If so, that certainly would be confusing. Of the two terms you suggest as substitutes, I prefer "single-site indexing". > As for "Web page index," I still can't imagine creating an index for a single web page--if the page is that big, it probably ought to be broken up into more useable chunks. "I dream of things that never were, and ask "why not?" " :-) (Quoted from memory - apologies if I've got the wording wrong!) To be serious, I can accept that indexing one Web page is likely to occur much less frequently than indexing one or many sites. In fact, I think we agreed earlier that neither of us was aware of an existing example. But a couple of thoughts make me wary of excluding the possibility completely, by not making provision for it at all in our fledgling vocabulary. One is that the length of the Web page isn't the most significant statistic, for indexing purposes. What matters more is the density of indexable elements in the page. One which contains mostly continuous text - e.g. a report - may need only one or two index entries per paragraph, at most. But another file of similar length which contains an annotated list of links to other Web sources may need one index entry per line, sometimes more. The first file might never merit an index of its own, but I'm not so sure about the second. The other thought is related to the above, and stems from the fact that a single index to even a fairly small site can result in a file which is large enough to require an appreciable period of time to download, on my system anyway. When that happens, more impatient users are likely to ignore the index in favour of whatever other site guidance is provided, blunter tools though these may be. In order to overcome this, it would be necessary to find some way of dividing up the index into smaller files, to reduce the download time. The most obvious way of doing that is to put each alphabetical section into a file of its own. There's another possibility, however, one which seems particularly suitable if the site includes lists of links as mentioned above. That is, to extract from the main index those entries which refer to the pages of links, and give each of these pages a sub-index of its own, in a separate file, with only broad headings left in the main index to guide the user to the sub-index. (Before you ask - no, I've never seen it done! But I have been toying with the possibility of experimenting with it on my own site.) > Finally, "Web index" doesn't cover any of the other uses of HTML--intranets, help files, and so on. It was never meant to. The definition I suggested in an earlier message was along the lines of "an index on the Web, serving to locate information in other Web files". What you're saying, I think, is that Web indexes form one subset of a larger group - indexes coded in HTML - other subsets of which are intranet indexes and help files? If so, presumably we need a still-wider umbrella term for that larger group. I'd suggest "HTML index/indexing ", except that I notice "HTML index" in your next paragraph, which implies that the term has already been commandeered for some other purpose. > Why not use terms that describe the subject on which we're writing in a particular context? Examples include "hypertext index," "HTML index," "Help index," "WinHelp index," "back-of-the-book style index," "HTML Help index," "JavaHelp index," and so on? I'm not sure what all of these are. Would you provide definitions/explanations? -- Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 01:12:50 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Sutherland Subject: Re: Web indexing terminology [was: automated vs manual indexing] The message <3.0.6.16.19991028095130.20bf5046@pop3.nccn.net> from Michael Brackney contains these words: > To begin with, I don't know whether the "w" in "Web" or "web", or in > "Web-this" or "web-that", should always be capitalized. Neither do I! - Linda Sutherland linda.sutherland@zetnet.co.uk