on your fall list at your website and was wondering if you'd assigned an indexer yet. I'd really like to have a shot at it, since I'm a world-renowned authority on the subject (or whatever)." Go for it. As an aside, I'd also like to support the idea that telephone marketing to someone's business (offering a service that will help them) is not telemarketing in the sense that we all know and hate. You're calling to bring a business service to the attention of a businessman to make their job easier. This is not a private residence. I personally think that it should be against the law to make an unsolicited phone call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm wacked--so I won't get into it here. Best/Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Indextrous <bookindexer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Marketing by Phone > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sent > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which makes me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won't pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person, or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortunate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:00:03 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Macrex, which I have used and loved for many years, can also export CINDEX files quite nicely. I've worked with both editors and on team projects which required CINDEX files and had no problems whatsoever using Macrex to generate the files. I realize that the original question was about Sky but it never hurts to know about as many software programs as possible. Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:35:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to beat a dead horse any further, but to clarify my comment about being "ahead financially" by making phone calls over attending conferences: The cost of a conference (registration, transportation, meals, lodging) could easily be $500-1,000 (if not more), so cold calls are cheaper for marketing. But I still contend that for my purposes, conferences offer more immediate rewards, dollar per dollar. This is clearly a case of finding different ways to skin the proverbial cat. . . And each indexer must find his or her own way to make contact. In general, indexers tend to be reluctant to get out and press the flesh. (Someone once ventured the opinion that we are freelancers precisely because we prefer to be alone.) Perhaps that is why I do well at conferences. Editors are surprised to meet a "real live indexer" and are usually eager for information. Someone usually has a job pending and didn't know who to ask for help. And there are generally few other indexers in attendance trying to get the editors' attention. Much easier to stand out in that kind of crowd, and to make an impression on the first try. In 15 years in business, I have never made a cold call. You ask "where do you find out who to send the letter to?" I find out at conferences. I usually come home with a stack of business cards for follow-up contacts. In my experience, the percentage of people who are actually looking for indexers is higher at conferences than I think I could determine by reading the LMP or any other listing of presses. (Frankly, why anyone would decide to become an indexer if they didn't know anyone who would hire them has remained a mystery to me, but that is a topic for another time. I started my business because I had clients. Until you have your first client actually paying you for an index, you are still just a possible indexer. I guess from my own perspective, I wouldn't have imagined becoming an indexer except that someone paid me for my first index and THEN I thought of myself as an indexer. Perhaps in future I will suggest to wannabe indexers that they find a client first, get trained later. Maybe that would overcome the problem of trained indexers left wandering the continent in search of potential clients. Perhaps you shouldn't get your USDA certificate until you've landed a client?!) Anyway, back to the topic at hand: Please keep in mind that no one here is saying that this is the way YOU (and of the 800 yous out there on Index-L) should do things. I'm just trying to say that this is what I have done. But, to reiterate again, I think what Susan has done has worked for her. Although I thought from the tone of her posting that she was complaining about not having had good results. I was trying to make the point that I thought she had had good results based on my interpretation of what she had accomplished from those calls. 205 minutes of phone calls per job discussion still seems like a good ratio to me, even if it translates into $250 (or whatever the total is) per job prospect. Marketing is expensive, it never stops, and there's no one route to pursue. You do everything you can think of, in as many directions as possible, and one day you find you are too busy to keep making cold calls. Until the next crisis, when some major contact retires and you find yourself with a gap, and you are back pounding the pavement looking for new contacts. That is a constant. Because there is no one place to advertise yourself, even if you pay for an ad in Publisher's Weekly or the LMP, you have to get creative about where you position yourself so your clients can find you at some point. That's at least one measure of success: that new clients come calling you and not vice versa. Keep at it. It does happen! As I once told someone who was losing heart in the struggle to find work, if you can't keep at it from now until forever, you maybe should find a job indexing in-house. It's a lot easier on your nerves if you aren't cut out to keep marketing yourself. This isn't meant to be disrespectful to people who aren't good at self-promotion. It's a fact of life that we all have different capabilities. You have to work with your strengths and minimize your weaknesses--all the more so when you are everything in the company from the janitor to the marketing manager. I don't have a problem with the continual marketing. In fact, I don't even see it as a problem, since I enjoy getting out and going to conferences and networking. But if it is a problem for someone, they should consider ways to avoid it, like working contractually or in-house for a single client. For that person, that situation might be a better solution than feeling frustrated about continual marketing hassles. In this world, "yous makes your choices, yous takes your chances." (in the immortal words of who?) In indexing, marketing to and finding potential clients is an expensive and time-consuming task. This doesn't make anyone happy, but it does seem to be a fact of life. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:40:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Can I sign that petition to introduce a bill to banish telemarketing to private residences? OK, so I overstated the point about cold calls as compared to telemarketing. But, in my opinion, they are still an intrusion in the work day. No editor would want to be flooded with calls from potential freelancers. That's one reason why meeting potential clients at conferences works so well. You aren't interrupting their work day when you are making contact. You are networking at a time set aside for such things. Just my 2 cents. (And end of my rant about marketing methods for the moment, I swear.) Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:16:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, I may have missed a post, but I read your posting about attending conferences to make contacts with editors with great interest. Can you suggest what kinds of conferences you go to that include editors? Bill Lee Cincinnati, OH ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:21:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). Cynthia and others doing phone marketing or research calls should make sure they investigate the various long-distance plans available. I don't pay peak long-distance; I'm on one of those plans where I can get all my long distance for 10 cents a minute (actually, I think they recently dropped it to 7 cents, so I have to make sure that's what I'm getting.) I pay a little extra a month to get that plan, but since it covers both my home and business phone on a single plan, and I also have a long-distance mentor, the plan works out to considerably less than I would pay otherwise. And the cost of the plan is deductible, since I wouldn't necessarily need it for my personal calls, but certainly do for my business calls. If you spent 205 minutes on the phone, and you paid $80 for that time, you paid about 39 cents per minute. On a calling plan such as I am on, you would have paid $20.50 for the calling time plus between $5 and $7 for the plan, saving over $50. (I'm not trying to make you feel bad, Cynthia, just save you some money!) Please, if you haven't checked out long-distance plans yet, check them out. And don't assume your long-distance provider automatically puts you on the most beneficial plan; they don't. You have to ask for it. Even if they advertise new rates for the specific plan you are on, you will have to ask the company to give you the newer rate. And incidentally, long-distance companies will often waive the "switching" fee if another company is also waiving it -- but again, you have to ask. Phone companies are one business in which it pays to be a very informed (and gently assertive) customer. Good luck! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:59:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, I tend to do scholarly and reference works, so I go to a lot of scholarly conferences in subject areas of interest to me. Also, I have attended Midwestern Presses and Southern Presses conferences, two regional conferences of AAUP. I have also attended the AAUP national conferences. I try to keep an eye out for any major conferences within driving distance also. There are also major conferences of for trade publishers, journals editors, and so forth. You have to ask your editors where they go! Best of luck, Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:15:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Cynthia, You are the second person to mention a $35 LMP! Please tell me what this LMP consists of, as I just purchased the 1999 2 vol. set at half price for $189, the Year 2000 set coming out in Oct is $289. Is yours the 2 vol. set? Is it 1999? If so, please send me the bookstore's phone number where you purchased it, ok? Thanks so much for any assistance. Ardith 8-) abbaindx@crosslink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Indextrous <bookindexer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Marketing by Phone > As I am the 205 minutes person, who made 110 calls and sent 44 letters I > became very curious just how much it had cost me to do this. Admittedly I > have very nice stationary and perhaps it was a bit spendy, but it gave me > some extra confidence when I started mailing. If I don't include the cost > of the graphic designer.... > 44 letters (letter, envelope, business card, index example) cost about > $40.00. > 110 letters would have cost about $100.00. > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). > The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost $35.00 > (a find at Powell's Books). > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sent > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which makes me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won't pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person, or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortunate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:16:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Suellen G Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes It seems to me that if I could get 2 jos with CINDEX, I would certainly buy it and switch. Suellen On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:19:52 PDT Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM> writes: >Hi everyone, > >In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason >that I do >not use CINDEX. Both were related to indexing medical journals. This >is an >area where I want to break in. > >Both of these publishers told me that if and whenever I start using >CINDEX, >then I should notify them and they will start giving me work in >journal >indexing. They also told me that their cumulative indexes are compiled >in >CINDEX. As a matter of fact, I do index medical books for *one of >these >clients*. Having CINDEX is not necessary for creating book index for >this >client, but having CINDEX is *must* for journal indexes acc. to >journal >editor. Needless to say, I am very upset just because I use SKY, not >CINDEX. >So I have few questions to ask from those indexers who do journal >indexing. > >1....when the journal index is created, do you send it as RTF file or >WORD >DOC file or use some other kind of file format? > >2....are journal indexes compiled by the indexer or by the publisher? > >3...what can CINDEX do (from publisher's point of view)that SKY does >not do? > >4...I send WORD DOC file to all of my clients for their indexes. None >of my >current clients has ever asked which indexing software I use. So why >journal >indexing editors are hung up on CINDEX? > >5...is there any indexer on Index-L who does journal indexing with SKY >software? > >6...is CINDEX must if an indexer wants to get into journal indexing? > >Personally, I am *extremely happy* with SKY software and I create all >indexes with SKY. I never realized that software issue would become a >big >problem for me for getting into journal indexing. > >Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. > >Thanks in advance. > >MANJIT K. SAHAI > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:09:38 -0700 Reply-To: Homer Ellison <info@advmediasol.com> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Homer Ellison <info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found Powell's Books (where Cynthia bought her LMP) at www.powells.com, but an online search for LMP turned up nothing for me. Maybe you'll have better luck? Regards, Homer >Dear Cynthia, > >You are the second person to mention a $35 LMP! Please tell me what this >LMP consists of, as I just purchased the 1999 2 vol. set at half price for >$189, the Year 2000 set coming out in Oct is $289. > >Is yours the 2 vol. set? Is it 1999? If so, please send me the bookstore's >phone number where you purchased it, ok? > >Thanks so much for any assistance. > >Ardith 8-) >abbaindx@crosslink.net > >> The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost >$35.00 >> (a find at Powell's Books). >><snip> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" <skysoft@EROLS.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes In-Reply-To: <19990920011953.94534.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Manjit, As you've already learned from other responses on this list, SKY Index can both import and export Cindex .DAT files. If that is not sufficient for your client, the solution is easy... Simply buy Cindex and use SKY Index for your data entry and editing. Then, prior to sending the file to your client, export it as a DAT file and then import it into Cindex. Although it is a rather large expense, if you believe it will bring you follow-on work, then you'll get your money back in the long run and you'll still be able to use the advanced features of SKY Index to get your index done quickly. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472 Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:36:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Homer and all. I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? Just my thoughts. Karen Field Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer -----Original Message----- From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: FrameMaker conversion I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:32:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Karen, I am in the process of changing from WP to WORD, very expensive! Is Framemaker a word processing program? (I am so ignorant!) If so, do you use SKY? Kamm says SKY works better with WORD than with WP. Over, Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion > Hi Homer and all. > > I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any > time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like > index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to > Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. > > Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't > want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. > IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. > When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling > out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. > > Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? > > Just my thoughts. > > Karen Field > Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer > -----Original Message----- > From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: FrameMaker conversion > > > I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a > FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to > convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once > the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:49:50 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Jean Middleton <jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET> Subject: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested in purchasing an out-of-print copy of LMP 1998, I have a suggestion. The ISBN number is 0835239284. Go to isbn.nu and search for this ISBN number. If you do not find a price you like, ask to be notified when the price changes. That is what I have done. At this time Amazon sells it retail for $189 and Powells has it at $150. Since the new edition is coming out soon, I think I'll just wait to see if the price goes down. I don't know where that $35 edition came from, but I would like to find it. Jean Middleton http://www.indexempire.com IndexEmpire Indexing Services Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:00:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ardith and all, FrameMaker is a desktop publishing program, and Word is a Word processing program (think huge books with lots of graphics vs. one-two page letters, etc.). (Please don't flame me if you Word as a DTP tool and like it. I hate using Word for what I do with a passion; that's just how I feel from experience.) Tech writers use Frame because it can handle large docs and incorporate the DTP needs of such docs, which Word cannot. The only reason I believe a full-time indexer needs Frame would be if a lot of his/her clients have docs in Frame for which they need embedded indexing. Obviously from Homer's questions about Frame, that happens, at least occasionally. Hope that helps. Karen -----Original Message----- From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T. [mailto:abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 10:32 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion Dear Karen, I am in the process of changing from WP to WORD, very expensive! Is Framemaker a word processing program? (I am so ignorant!) If so, do you use SKY? Kamm says SKY works better with WORD than with WP. Over, Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion > Hi Homer and all. > > I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any > time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like > index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to > Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. > > Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't > want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. > IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. > When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling > out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. > > Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? > > Just my thoughts. > > Karen Field > Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer > -----Original Message----- > From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: FrameMaker conversion > > > I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a > FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to > convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once > the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you go to: <http://www.abebooks.com/cgi/abe.exe/routera^progname=inventoryKeys^phase=1^clientId=12702> (sorry for the long url--I have my bookmark set to the search page, so you may have to copy/paste) input "Literary Market Place" and set to "all bookstores" There's a 1998 LMP for $49.95. Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: P.S. Re: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a shorter URL for that search page I just sent: <http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=12702> Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:48:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET> Subject: on-line legal references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Index-L: In addition to the on-line legal references suggested on this list in response to my recent query (many thanks), I also discovered Oran's dictionary of the Law at site below and thought I would pass it on. http://www.lawoffice.com/pathfind/orans/orans.asp Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@ruraltel.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:23:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Cynthia <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, You're such an inspiration to the beginners. I still remember your plan of calling to say you had a space in your schedule (which I'm going to use soon) and because I thought it was so clever it always makes me brave. And on that second point, don't worry, wacked or not I agree. > Dan Connolly wrote: Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > <snip> re-contact your prospective clients. Make that third contact. You got the name, > you spoke briefly with them, you sent them your information. Now seal the deal with a > follow-up call. > <snip>I personally think that it should be against the law to make an unsolicited phone > call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm wacked--so I > won't get into it here. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Legal References Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" There are several links to good internet legal references on the ASI web site: http://www.asindexing.org/refbooks.shtml#legal Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:22:17 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= <jingting@MAGMA.CA> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone In-Reply-To: <000901bf0310$4c67e2e0$27dc0e3f@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regard to marketing--tele-m. or otherwise, Harvey Mackay says it best: It's not who you know, or what you know; it's what you know =3D> about <=3D who you know.* Cordially, Yves Jeaurond jingting@magma.ca * Mackay, Harvey, "How to Build a Network of Power Relationships", Simon = & Schuster Audio, 1995 ---------- > As I am the 205 minutes person, who made 110 calls and sent 44 letters = I > became very curious just how much it had cost me to do this. Admitted= ly I > have very nice stationary and perhaps it was a bit spendy, but it gave = me > some extra confidence when I started mailing. If I don't include the = cost > of the graphic designer.... > 44 letters (letter, envelope, business card, index example) cost about > $40.00. > 110 letters would have cost about $100.00. > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). > The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost = $35.00 > (a find at Powell's Books). > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sen= t > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I = am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which mak= es me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won'= t pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person= , or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortun= ate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing= and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Legal References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies to Larry and ASI for suggesting this really great legal reference site (Oran's Dictionary of the Law) when it's been there on the ASI "webshelf" all the time. Blushingly, Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@ruraltel.net larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM wrote: > There are several links to good internet legal references on the ASI web site: > > http://www.asindexing.org/refbooks.shtml#legal > > Regards, > Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter > [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:21:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Kansas-Missouri Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Kansas-Missouri Group FALL MEETING Saturday, October 23, 1999 Spencer Art Reference Library, Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art 4525 Oak St., Kansas City, Missouri 9:30 - 10:00 am - informal networking and coffee 10:00 am - 12:00 noon - formal meeting noon - lunch TOPICS Periodical Indexing Hear from two indexers who are working on long-term periodical indexing projects: Jane Zander, Senior Cataloger at the Spencer Library, who is indexing the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art Bulletin, and Sharon Sweeney, a freelance indexer who works on the Harper's Magazine index. If you have experience indexing other periodicals, please come and share it, or if you don't, come and learn more about periodical indexing. Annual conference A review of the Indianapolis conference in June. Following the meeting, please join us for lunch at the museum's Rozelle Court restaurant. Food service is cafeteria-style and we will pay for lunch individually. You may want to spend the afternoon exploring the museum (admission is free on Saturdays!) or the nearby Country Club Plaza. Temporary exhibits at the Nelson will be "Echoes of Eternity: The Egyptian Mummy and the Afterlife" and "In the Absence of Color" (contemporary art). The permanent collections are also worth a visit if you haven't seen them. Additional information is available on the museum's Web site: www.nelson-atkins.org Directions to the Nelson-Atkins are given in great detail at www.nelson-atkins.org/information/map.htm If you do not have Web access or need more information, contact Mary Mortensen at 785-841-3631 or marymort@aol.com. Parking is on the north side of the museum and you can enter through the employee entrance on the west side (Oak Street.) Guests are welcome! Please let us know if you are coming by Oct. 20, so we can make sure we have enough chairs for the meeting and for lunch. Either call 785-841-3631, email marymort@aol.com, or return the registration form below to: Mary Mortensen, 2127 Rhode Island St., Lawrence, KS 66046. =============================================== ___ persons will attend the October 23, 1999, meeting ___ persons will eat lunch with the group Name(s) ___________________________________________________________ Telephone _____________________ Email ________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, Where can one obtain the conference schedules for these organizations? Do any of them have web sites? Also, do you need to be a member, or do the conferences allow non-members, perhaps with a higher registration fee? I would go to something within driving distance *if* I knew about it. ;-) Asking editors where they go only works after you have "met" some editors, which won't be much help for those trying to get started . Speaking for myself, I would rather do my marketing face to face than on the telephone whenever possible. Thanks for suggesting an alternative to the telephone route. Ann Truesdale Barbara wrote: > > I tend to do scholarly and reference works, so I go to a lot of scholarly > conferences in subject areas of interest to me. Also, I have attended > Midwestern Presses and Southern Presses conferences, two regional conferences > of AAUP. I have also attended the AAUP national conferences. > > I try to keep an eye out for any major conferences within driving distance > also. > > There are also major conferences of for trade publishers, journals editors, > and so forth. You have to ask your editors where they go! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:39:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia, Thanks for the kind words. Best of luck. Determination will see you through./Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cynthia <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > Dan, You're such an inspiration to the beginners. I still remember your > plan of calling to say you had a space in your schedule (which I'm going to > use soon) and because I thought it was so clever it always makes me brave. > And on that second point, don't worry, wacked or not I agree. > > Dan Connolly wrote: Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > > <snip> re-contact your prospective clients. Make that third contact. You > got the name, > > you spoke briefly with them, you sent them your information. Now seal the > deal with a > > follow-up call. > > <snip>I personally think that it should be against the law to make an > unsolicited phone > > call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm > wacked--so I > > won't get into it here. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM> Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, You're right about the flooding. I just never consider myself to be part of the rising tide (personally, I think I'm more like a rogue wave). I concede your points on the conferences and will be looking in my area./Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 1:40 AM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition > Hi Dan, > > Can I sign that petition to introduce a bill to banish telemarketing to > private residences? > > OK, so I overstated the point about cold calls as compared to telemarketing. > But, in my opinion, they are still an intrusion in the work day. No editor > would want to be flooded with calls from potential freelancers. > > That's one reason why meeting potential clients at conferences works so well. > You aren't interrupting their work day when you are making contact. You are > networking at a time set aside for such things. > > Just my 2 cents. (And end of my rant about marketing methods for the moment, > I swear.) > > Barbara > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:18:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ann, Virtually every group I know about does maintain a Web site. Also, I am a member of 10 professional organizations at the moment, so I get lots of newsletters with calendars of upcoming meetings. I always having reading material to catch up on! One of the most thorough calendars is in the American Anthropological Association newsletter. Society for Scholarly Publishing also tries to keep up. Garden Writers Association of American has a lot of regional things too, and their membership directory is a treasure for marketing. The Organization of American Historians has a good, informative newsletter. There is an organization for anything and everything under the sun, once you start to look around. Just for the record, I also belong to Sigma Xi, College Art Association, American Association for State and Local History, Society for Technical Communication, Women in Scholarly Publishing, and the Women's National Book Association. I have also belonged to the Society for American Archaeology and regional archaeology groups, the Society for Scholarly Publishing, and some others I can't recall at the moment. As far as I know, all of these except Sigma Xi are open to anyone. (For Sigma Xi, you have to be nominated in, as it is a science honor society--I got in when I was a Ph.D student and have kept up my membership because I love the journal, American Scientist, even though I've never been to one of their conferences and don't do much work in the hard sciences.) (And this doesn't even include my "hobby" memberships. Is it any wonder I have to work to pay all these dues?! I try not to think about the expense, because I like the organizations. And also, I've been in business for 15 years and have added most of the in the last 5-6. Clearly, a new indexer doesn't need so many. But I have always maintained the anthropology ones, so ASI and KeyWords have never been my only source of information. I never saw the ASI as an organization to get business; for me it has been an organization to meet other indexers and gain professional skills.) As a former academic, I still maintain ties to professional organizations in my subject areas (being an anthropologist, there's plenty of overlap and lots of reasons to belong to more than one organization). And yes, before you ask, I do pay a considerable amount in dues every year, as you can see. But I opt for the cheapest rates whenever I can. For example, for AAA I am down to a newsletter subscription only, at the moment. So there are ways to keep the costs down, if you take the time to sort out your priorities. As to Web sites: I have bookmarked a number of major organizations with good conferences and try to scan the Web sites a few times a year. Since I generally sketch out my travel plans 6 months to a year ahead, I try to think about travel from one ASI conference to the next, more or less. As for attending these conferences, I have never been turned away from any conference I've ever tried to attend, no matter how small or exclusive. Even AAUP, which has a history of treating freelancers as outsiders (because of its institutional orientation), lets anyone attend, not just employees of member presses. WiSP is a good source for freelancers for information about that group and it's national and regional conferences. And you don't have to be a woman to belong. You just have to be an advocate of women's issues. (Important aside: WiSP also provides professional development grants for members, which as far as I know is the only group that provides travel funds for freelancers. I know that quite a few indexers have taken advantage of this benefit for becoming members of WiSP over the years. Dues is $20 or $30 a year, based on income levels.) What I usually say is this: if you use your creativity about it, you'll find way more places than you can afford to attend, or pay dues to, or keep up with. For a few years, I rotated memberships between some organizations I wasn't sure about. Then I settled down into the ones I have at the moment. But this is always subject to change. I guess this answer got long, but what I would say to sum up is this: there is a clear reason my business took off quickly and has stayed strong (touch wood). I have marketed myself aggressively, made use of the resources I knew about from my former profession(s), and keep up my academic credentials. What anyone else does, I have no idea. How you can "break into" a field you don't know much about and have no contacts in, I don't know about and no advice to offer. My business grew as a natural progression out of my former contacts. What I usually suggest to new indexers is that they take the same approach or work in-house for a while to get those kinds of contacts. Otherwise, I do tend to think the walls would look too high for me to scale. But then again, I'm a little on the lazy side. I don't believe in beating my head against a wall, when I can see there's a door somewhere. I'd rather spend time searching for the door than using my head as a battering ram. Sure sign of an academic frame of mind! :) Hope this helps someone out there in Indexing Inter-space! Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:20:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, I'll concede your rogue wave and raise you one rip tide. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:37:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Robert Brod <asi-wisc@EXECPC.COM> Subject: ASI-Wisconsin chapter Fall Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" American Society of Indexers, Wisconsin Chapter Fall Conference 1999 Featured Speaker: Maria Coughlin "Editing the Index: Basic Principles, and Specific Applications to Medical and Scientific Indexes" Saturday, October 23 8:30 a.m. - 1:30 pm Lake Lawn Resort 2400 East Geneva St. Delavan, WI 53115 262-728-7950 www.lakelawnresort.com This participatory workshop focuses on the basic principles of editing an index and includes an editing "practicum," an opportunity for participants to edit an actual index draft. This practice session will be followed by discussion of the nitty gritty of medical and scientific editing conundrums, which are applicable to a broad range of indexing projects. Participants are encouraged to bring examples of editing problems, so that the group can benefit from tackling them. Following the workshop, we will break into groups for roundtable discussions during lunch. The roundtable topics and facilitators are as follows (please indicate your preference on the form below): Kay Wosewick: writing resumes Barbara Littlewood: getting work Sally Albertz and Edith Ericson: indexing genealogy Carol Roberts: negotiating with clients Conference Schedule: 8:30 to 9:00 am: Check-in 9:00: Maria Couglin, "Editing the Index: Basic Principles and Specific Applications" 12:00: Lunch and roundtable discussions The morning session will include refreshments and a short break. Lunch is a Southwestern buffet, including both meat and vegetarian dishes. Maria Coughlin has been indexing for more than 15 years. Her subject specialties are medicine (clinical practice books, textbooks, manuals, etc.), biology, and physiology. She currently has an indexing business that employs seven associate indexers. She has served ASI locally and nationally in various capacities for a total of 5 person-years, and looks forward to meeting both indexers and editors at her workshop. REGISTRATION: Postmarked by 10/9/99: $45 for ASI members; $50 for non-members Postmarked after 10/9/99: $55 for ASI members; $60 for non-members No registrations can be accepted after 10/19/99. Space is limited. Name: __________________ Address:________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Daytime phone:____________________________ E-mail:___________________________________ Roundtable preference: 1st choice:________________________________ 2nd choice:________________________________ 3rd choice:________________________________ Please return check (payable to Wisconsin Chapter-ASI) and this form to Carol Roberts, 1908 E. Edgewood Ave., Shorewood, WI 53211. You may cancel your reservation up until Friday October 15, and receive a full refund. ACCOMODATIONS AND DIRECTIONS Lake Lawn Resort, on 275 lakeside acres, is a year-round destination and conference resort. Conference participants may want to stay for part of the weekend to enjoy the facilities, which include a pool, golf, miniature golf, tennis, softball, basketball, sand volleyball, video game room, trail rides, petting farm, fishing, boating, shopping, and massage therapy. To make your arrangements please contact Lake Lawn Resort at 262-728-7950. Directions: From Milwaukee: I-43 southwest to Highway 50. Hard left on Highway 50 (east) for 1 mile. From Madison: I-90 east to Janesville. Highway 14 S (turns into Highway 11) to Delavan. At first stop light in Delavan, turn right onto 7th St. Lake Lawn is approximately 2 more miles on your right, after the Geneva Lake. From O'Hare Airport: I-94 north to Highway 50 (Kenosha exit). Turn left (west) onto Highway 50. Lake Lawn is approximately 45 minutes from I-94 and 8 miles west of Lake Geneva Kennel Club. For more information, please contact Mary Brod, 262-784-0372, or rbrod@execpc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:08:59 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM> Subject: Re: Breaking in with no contacts (was Marketing at Conferences) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: BECohen653@AOL.COM <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Date: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 12:33 AM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences How you can "break into" a field you don't >know much about and have no contacts in, I don't know about and no advice to >offer. It has been most interesting to hear about Barbara's marketing strategies. They have obviously been very effective. My own experience has been quite different. I'm afraid that I am one of those who entered the world of indexing without any contacts, no work experience, and no indexing experience. Oh, and dare I mention that I had never even turned on a computer. I've been indexing for over ten years now and have had no shortage of work since my first year (during which I indexed about 40 books). I graduated from college pregnant with my first child. By 24 years of age I had four sons and was very happy become a typical soccer mom (yes, I not only coached several championship teams but coordinated the referee program --80 games per weekend--for two years!). By the time our sons were teenagers I was tired of volunteer work and started to look around for something else. Indexing kept coming up during my research and I decided to take some classes including the USDA course (which I highly recommend). Before I had finished up the USDA course I got my first two indexes jobs through a fluke. My husband and oldest son purchased a dirt bike from a priest who was a Catholic Press publisher. My husband mentioned I was taking an indexing course and, surprise, two weeks later I was working for the press. It was great because I didn't have to pretend anything, they knew I was a beginner. I received my next ten jobs directly through referrals from the generous members of my local ASI chapter. It was only after indexing at least 10 or 12 books that I began to market myself. I've been pretty successful at retaining my clients and so have only had to market myself when I felt like expanding my client base. So why was I successful with such a sorry foundation? Well, first of all, I did my homework learning about indexing, computer equipment, and the business of indexing. Second, taking the USDA course and gathering as much information on the indexing process, was invaluable to me. Third, ASI chapter networking which was how I received most of my early editor contacts. Fourth, my volunteer experience was surprisingly good preparation for the marketing and business aspects of indexing. And last of all, but very important, since my husband was supporting us I didn't have any financial pressure to make a consistent income right away. What I'm saying is that it doesn't necessarily take publishing contacts and experience to break into indexing. Though, undeniably, contacts and experience would make the process much easier. What it does take is proper preparation and execution of your goals. Also, Barbara alluded to the deluge of marketing currently being directed toward editors. I don't believe that the mass marketing techniques, sending out hundreds of brochures or letters, is very effective. This is particular true if such marketing doesn't include references or stated experience. It's my understanding that many editors have been openly complaining about these mass mailings. I would never have marketed myself before getting some experience first. And, there are ways to get experience, through volunteer work, mentoring for other indexers, or good old-fashioned networking. And Dan also made an excellent point about standing out from the crowd. That's hard to do if you have no experience or some other unique quality to offer. I'm not criticizing anyone out there who has chosen another route, I'm just stating, as Barbara has, what I've been comfortable and successful in doing. As in so many things, there are many paths into an indexing career. I hope that my experience might be helpful to someone out there. Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:36:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sylvia, I think you illustrate my point perfectly. Each person has to find his or her own way into the profession. The "fluke" you mention happened because you were ready to take advantage of it. (See my KW article "Luck is Hard Work" for a more detailed explanation of why I think there is no such thing as dumb luck. And why your experience illustrates that point so well.) I especially like the point that you started working for someone who helped you to build a client base. Whether that is contractual, in a mentor or apprentice situation, or working for an editor willing to help you get started, the point is, it does help to have some kind of opportunity arise that you are prepared to take advantage of (prepared as in "chance favors the prepared mind"). Anyway, it is good to listen to what everyone else did, but successful indexers getting started now have to put all the pieces together in a way that takes into consideration their strengths and opportunities, as well as current publishing practices (which have changed a lot in the 15 years since I got started). No one else can predict where the break will come or when. We've all had it. None of us could have predicted it. Mine was in preparing an index for an author I had edited fairly regularly for 3 years. I thought the index would be fun to try, the book was short (and I had been involved in editing it), and the editor in question didn't care who did the index as long as it got done on time. The author was more than happy to let me "have at it." Hence my "fluke" opportunity. I don't mean to discourage anyone with my comments, but I do hope to discourage the false belief that there is some clear and straightforward path to becoming an indexer. Because I do feel that would be misleading. There is no one path. There is a path you find, and once you have constructed that pathway in, you find it consists of the support network you have built and will use for many years to come. Just one freelancer's opinion about why each of our businesses is unique and reflects our individual skills and expectations, Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:39:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer Comments: cc: Dwight Walker <dwight@wwwalker.com.au>, SKYIndexUsers@onelist.com, ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Barbara, SO BEAUTIFUL AND ENCOURAGING! THANK YOU! I did a mass marketing (only 90 mailings) last week. I am hoping for that "fluke" which I call "Providence" to open one or two more publishers to my services. I want so much to diversify from medical indexing, thus the marketing effort. I have read the many interesting opinions based on experience (in most cases) from my fellow indexers which has helped expand my own thinking regarding marketing. Of course, as Sylvia mentioned, referrals from fellow indexers is important. Also, ASI-L does publish those rare job requests to us from publishers and other indexers. These go like hotcakes! Thanks to all of you who take the time and energy to write to our discussion group. It is most helpful to newer indexers like myself. 8-) Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer > Hi Sylvia, > > I think you illustrate my point perfectly. Each person has to find his or her > own way into the profession. The "fluke" you mention happened because you > were ready to take advantage of it. (See my KW article "Luck is Hard Work" > for a more detailed explanation of why I think there is no such thing as dumb > luck. And why your experience illustrates that point so well.) > > I especially like the point that you started working for someone who helped > you to build a client base. Whether that is contractual, in a mentor or > apprentice situation, or working for an editor willing to help you get > started, the point is, it does help to have some kind of opportunity arise > that you are prepared to take advantage of (prepared as in "chance favors the > prepared mind"). > > Anyway, it is good to listen to what everyone else did, but successful > indexers getting started now have to put all the pieces together in a way > that takes into consideration their strengths and opportunities, as well as > current publishing practices (which have changed a lot in the 15 years since > I got started). No one else can predict where the break will come or when. > We've all had it. None of us could have predicted it. > > Mine was in preparing an index for an author I had edited fairly regularly > for 3 years. I thought the index would be fun to try, the book was short (and > I had been involved in editing it), and the editor in question didn't care > who did the index as long as it got done on time. The author was more than > happy to let me "have at it." Hence my "fluke" opportunity. > > I don't mean to discourage anyone with my comments, but I do hope to > discourage the false belief that there is some clear and straightforward path > to becoming an indexer. Because I do feel that would be misleading. There is > no one path. There is a path you find, and once you have constructed that > pathway in, you find it consists of the support network you have built and > will use for many years to come. > > Just one freelancer's opinion about why each of our businesses is unique and > reflects our individual skills and expectations, > > Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: An Optimist! Comments: To: JACQUI519@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jacqui, Thank you for the response. Yes, I too "fear" too many = calls from 90 mailings, thus the follow-up calls needed. But then you = probably know what the definition for an optimist is? An Optimist: Someone with one foot planted firmly on the ground! Ardith 8-) ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Jacqui, Thank you for the response. = Yes, I=20 too "fear" too many calls from 90 mailings, thus the follow-up calls=20 needed. But then you probably know what the definition for an = optimist=20 is?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>An Optimist: Someone with one foot planted = firmly on the=20 ground!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ardith 8-)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, I must say you do keep up with things. ;-) Of the organizations to which I belong, I don't see any of them offering much opportunity for marketing, other than ASI - not even the Association for Veterinary Infomatics. Anybody out there got any suggestions for the medical and science topic areas? Outside of scholarly indexing I don't see much potential there. Ann Truesdale Barbara wrote: > Hi Ann, > > Virtually every group I know about does maintain a Web site. Also, I am a > member of 10 professional organizations at the moment, so I get lots of > newsletters with calendars of upcoming meetings. I always having reading > material to catch up on! > <snip> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:52:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: SageWords1@AOL.COM Subject: Indexers Experienced with Scientific Material - Job Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, The Lyons Press in New York needs a book indexed. I was offered the job, but after reviewing some sample pages feel that it is beyond my capabilities at the current time. The book is called The Scientific American Book of the Brain and is a compilation of 30+ articles written by scientists about all aspects of the brain. It is full of scientific words and jargon, and is approximately 340 pages, with 10 pages available for the index. There are some illustrations. Time frame to complete the index is ASAP/3 weeks. If you have experience with this type of material, please contact Jane Elias, Production Editor at The Lyons Press. Jane asked for e-mails only--no phone calls please. If you do not have experience with scientific material, please do not contact her about this job. Jane's e-mail address is: janelias@aol.com Thanks for your help, and good luck! Debbie Graf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@TIAC.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences In-Reply-To: <004b01bf046e$7201d6a0$4ac9f7a5@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: > >Anybody out there got any suggestions for the medical and science topic >areas? Outside of scholarly indexing I don't see much potential there. > >Ann Truesdale One organization is the American Medical Writers Association, which is having it's annual meeting in Philadelphia near the end of October. Willa (who would love to spend my entire professional life attending conferences rather than working, but who knows that that that won't pay my bills (sigh)... :) ) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:46:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, There are writers' groups all over the place, and you might try the Council for Biology Editors, as just one example of a scientific/editorial group. I'm sure there are many others I know nothing about. Since academics write a lot of trade books, you could try at your local college or university to find out what groups meet locally. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:49:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, AMWA has local chapters . . . I know the Indy chapter is meeting this very evening. You might have a local chapter in your area. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:02:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Husband-Wife Indexer Teams Comments: To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List members, Helen wrote to Sandi Shroeder and to ASI-L today: "BTW, my husband, Alan, and I attended the Colorado Chapter's workshop = in Boulder with Susan Olason as speaker on Saturday. It was a great = workshop and we were impressed with the number of people who attended, the thorough presentation, the professionalism of the chapter members, and the fact = that our ASI president (you!) attended. We are contemplating careers in = indexing and were favorably influenced! Thank you for attending and for all your = wonderful support! We look forward to more communication with you and = other ASI members." -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 I, too, am grateful to Sandi and other Board members for their = commitment to our ASI and for their hard work (volunteers!), in the = midst of their own indexing work. Thank you all SO MUCH! =20 Secondly, I am interested in hearing from/about any Husband-Wife Indexer = Teams. My husband and I have discussed his joining me in this = interesting and rewarding profession - especially with the joy and = comfort of working out of our home office. =20 Are any of our colleagues teaming with their spouse in our craft? How = goes it? Any advice? =20 =20 From VERY SOGGY, still raining here in Virginia (near Fredericksburg), Ardith Ayotte 8-) ABBA Index Services =20 abbaindx@crosslink.net ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear List members,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Helen wrote to Sandi Shroeder and to ASI-L=20 today:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"BTW, my husband, Alan, and I attended the Colorado = Chapter's=20 workshop in<BR>Boulder with Susan Olason as speaker on Saturday. = It was a=20 great workshop and<BR>we were impressed with the number of people who = attended,=20 the thorough<BR>presentation, the professionalism of the chapter = members, =20 and the fact that<BR>our ASI president (you!) attended. <STRONG>We = are=20 contemplating careers in indexing<BR>and were favorably = influenced! =20 </STRONG>Thank you for attending and for all your wonderful = support! We=20 look forward to more communication with you and other ASI members."<BR> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I, too, am grateful to Sandi and other Board = members for=20 their commitment to our ASI and for their hard work (volunteers!), in = the midst=20 of their own indexing work. Thank you all SO MUCH!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Secondly, <STRONG><EM>I am interested in hearing = from/about=20 any Husband-Wife Indexer Teams</EM></STRONG>. My husband and I = have=20 discussed his joining me in this interesting and rewarding profession -=20 especially with the joy and comfort of working out of our home=20 office.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are any of our colleagues teaming with their spouse = in our=20 craft? How goes it? Any advice? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>From VERY SOGGY, still raining</FONT><FONT size=3D2> = here in=20 Virginia (near Fredericksburg),</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ardith Ayotte 8-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>ABBA Index Services</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20 href=3D"mailto:abbaindx@crosslink.net">abbaindx@crosslink.net</A></FONT><= /DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_009F

Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9909C" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:26:29 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: pop artist names In-Reply-To: <005701befedd$e95d83c0$4d9393c3@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Christin Keck wrote > > >Hi. I'm a new participant to the list. > >What if you're indexing a list of cartoon mice? How would > >you do it then? Couldn't you list them under > >Mouse > > Mickey > > Mighty > > Jerry > > Minnie > >? > >(Actually, I'm not very serious about this. I do find it > >amusing to contemplate.) ;-) > > > You could, but I think it would be better to invert them: > > Mouse, Mickey > Mouse, Mighty > Mouse, Jerry > Mouse, Minnie > > and, depending on the number of citations (!) also index them under their > uninverted forms - Mickey Mouse, etc - or cross-refer. > > A serious answer to a silly problem An even more serious answer would be: mice Danger Mouse Jerry Mouse Mickey Mouse Mighty Mouse Minnie Mouse The main entry might need to be 'cartoon mice' or 'animated mice' depending on the context of the whole book. Jon. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: pop artist names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Elliot Linzer writes: > I hate to spoil the humor in this thread, but "Snoop Doggy Dogg" and >"Micky Mouse" are not analogous. A different rule is applied to each. >"Snoop Doggy >Dogg" is a real person using a pseudonym. I would not invert it because >it is not possible to determine which part is his family name and which >part is his given name. > "Mickey Mouse," as well as "Mighty Mouse" and "Minnie Mouse" are >fictional characters, not people. When I first learned indexing, 30 >years ago, when I worked in-house as an indexer on a then-popular >encyclopedia, fictional characters were "things" in the trichotomy >"people, places and things." As such, they were never inverted. "Tom >Sawyer" was indexed as "Tom Sawyer," not as "Sawyer, Tom." I totally agree with Elliot. Fictional characters are frequently included in indexes for volumes of literary criticism and are never inverted. Names of books are sometimes contained in the entry: Elizabeth Bennet (in _Pride and Prejudice_) for a book on Jane Austin, for instance, or simply Elizabeth (in _Pride and Prejudice_) Tom (in _Tom Sawyer_) but character/ names are not inverted, no matter the nature of the index. Lillian ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:55:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erin Hartshorn Subject: telephone time Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Collective Wisdom, I'm trying to prepare a budget for my first year of indexing (ahead of time, as I'm only half-way through the USDA course). I'm interested in knowing how much time indexers spend on telephone calls during marketing and when actually working on a project for a client. (I'm asking for time estimates, since rates will vary depending upon location and telephone carrier.) Also, does anyone ahve any feel for whether these times change depending upon how long one has been indexing? Thanks in advance, Erin Hartshorn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 14:38:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Organization: the-indexer.com Subject: Re: telephone time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the advent of email my phone time with editors while working on an index has gone down to almost nothing. Occasionally with a new client, particularly an author, I may end up talking 15-20 minutes to explain things, but I've also found that by pre-referring someone new to my Web pages, I can cut down on some explanatory information. Since I do very little direct marketing, I can't help you with an estimate for that area. Charles R. Anderson the-indexer.com P.O. Box 15642 Seattle, WA 98115-0642 phone: 206-985-8799 anderson@the-indexer.com http://www.the-indexer.com fax: 206-985-8796 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:04:49 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: telephone time MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 559 minutes and counting, YTD, in this, my first year of indexing/marketing. Projects to 698 minutes for the year. Boy, that's a lot of 3-minute calls!/Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Erin Hartshorn To: Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 1999 4:55 PM Subject: telephone time > Collective Wisdom, > > I'm trying to prepare a budget for my first year of indexing (ahead > of time, as I'm only half-way through the USDA course). I'm interested in > knowing how much time indexers spend on telephone calls during marketing > and when actually working on a project for a client. (I'm asking for time > estimates, since rates will vary depending upon location and telephone > carrier.) Also, does anyone ahve any feel for whether these times change > depending upon how long one has been indexing? > Thanks in advance, > > Erin Hartshorn > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:42:06 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: indexing ethics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, In our author thread, of a couple of weeks ago, none of us mentioned having to instruct authors in ethical behavior. I just had an experience today which I'd like to share with the list. An author contacted me using my old email address. I usually check the old server only once a day. So, by the time I was able to call him back the author had already made an agreement with another indexer. However, since I was apparently the top recommendation by the university press editor, the author wanted to know if I could still take the job. Naturally, I said no. It amazes me (and bothers me to no end) that an author would have made an agreement with one indexer and be so quick to make an attempted contract with another one. So, I guess I'll have to add "watch for ethical behavior in authors" to my list! Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:07:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: pop artist names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Lillian Ashworth says: > > I totally agree with Elliot. Fictional characters are frequently included > in indexes for volumes of literary criticism and are never inverted. Names > of books are sometimes contained in the entry: > > Elizabeth Bennet (in _Pride and Prejudice_) > > for a book on Jane Austin, for instance, or simply > > Elizabeth (in _Pride and Prejudice_) > Tom (in _Tom Sawyer_) > > but character/ names are not inverted, no matter the nature of the index. > Why, for goodness sake? This appears to me to be totally opposed to common sense. I couldn't for a moment ever imagine looking up the name of a fictional character other than as if it were a real name. It's hard enough training index users on indexing conventions -- once we've taught them that names are entered under surname, why do we make an exception for fictional names? A name is a name is a name -- real or fictional doesn't seem to me to be an issue. (In fact, to many authors and their commentators the names of their characters are quite as "real" as real people. Countless surveys indicate that watchers of TV soaps are often incapable of distinguishing between real people on TV and characters in TV stories.) I'm quite prepared to believe you -- I just need some pretty good evidence. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 20:19:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Willa MacAllen Subject: Re: telephone time In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: I'm interested in >knowing how much time indexers spend on telephone calls during marketing >and when actually working on a project for a client. (I'm asking for time >estimates, since rates will vary depending upon location and telephone >carrier.) The amount of time you spend marketing via the telephone/letters will be intensive the first year or two, and will become less of an issue as you start building a client base and get repeat clients. Also, don't forget to include in your figure the amount of time you are on email. Willa (missing out on playing for 2 local contra dances this weekend because of trail work weekend at Cardigan...and frequently wishing I could be in two places at once...) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 22:29:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: telephone time I'm >interested in >knowing how much time indexers spend on telephone calls during >marketing >and when actually working on a project for a client. My experience was that most of my calls averaged only about a minute long - it only took that long to find out they didn't hire freelancers. For publishers that did hire, 3 minutes or so was enough to find that out, ask to send a resume, and get the name and address. I spent less than $40 on my first marketing blitz. But - I was always careful to use a 1-800 number when it was available, which I'm sure saved a few dimes here and there. While working on a project, phone time (and expense) is minimal, if not non-existant. They call me to start with, then I use e-mail whenever I can. I'd say that postage and high quality paper were my biggest marketing expenses. That's why "cold call" phone calls are much more cost effective than "cold call" letters. - Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 23:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: Nevermind@nospam.me Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: Never. It spoils my system. Subject: Re: pop artist names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Wyatt wrote: > > From: Lillian Ashworth says: > > > > I totally agree with Elliot. Fictional characters are frequently included > > in indexes for volumes of literary criticism and are never inverted. > Names > > of books are sometimes contained in the entry: > > > > Elizabeth Bennet (in _Pride and Prejudice_) > > > > for a book on Jane Austin, for instance, or simply > > > > Elizabeth (in _Pride and Prejudice_) > > Tom (in _Tom Sawyer_) > > > > but character/ names are not inverted, no matter the nature of the index. > > > > Why, for goodness sake? This appears to me to be totally opposed to common > sense. I couldn't for a moment ever imagine looking up the name of a > fictional character other than as if it were a real name. It's hard enough > training index users on indexing conventions -- once we've taught them that > names are entered under surname, why do we make an exception for fictional > names? A name is a name is a name -- real or fictional doesn't seem to me to > be an issue. (In fact, to many authors and their commentators the names of > their characters are quite as "real" as real people. Countless surveys > indicate that watchers of TV soaps are often incapable of distinguishing > between real people on TV and characters in TV stories.) I'm quite prepared > to believe you -- I just need some pretty good evidence. Well, I imagine it keeps you from ending up with things like: Man, Aqua Man, Bat Man, He Man, Super Man, X Woman, Super Woman, Wonder etc. I suppose it embodies the same principles as that old joke: Q: What do Winnie the Pooh and Attilla the Hun have in common? A: Same middle name. Smiling through it all, Christin -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 00:01:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: pop artist names Comments: To: Nevermind@nospam.me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Come now, I know you're kidding. These are not the same cases as last name, first name for fictional characters. They are more analogous, I believe, to "French music," which is preferably indexed directly rather than "music, French," as most people tend to look things up the way they speak - in direct order. There is nothing wrong with having Aqua Man Marner, Silas (fictional) Wonder Woman X Man Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-09-15 23:41:12 EDT, you write: > Man, Aqua > Man, Bat > Man, He > Man, Super > Man, X > Woman, Super > Woman, Wonder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:20:52 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Estimating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have been collecting data for some time on such parameters as length of book, length of index, time taken etc. This refers to over 100 jobs and I am still unable to discern any trend of correlation when comparing one figure with another. If there were one, it would be most helpful in giving estimates. In many cases I guess right, though I couldn't say why. In some cases I am quite wrong. Obviously there are factors I have not quantified such as difficulty of the text (whatever that means), complications about receiving proofs or other events during the course of indexing, etc. Perhaps external factors affecting speed of thought, such as life events. I would be interested in experience of methods of estimating other than guessing! Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 07:23:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Deborah E. Patton" Subject: more on MAD CD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Dick, Since you have the MAD CD, would you tell us a little about how the index for it works?? I was talking with another indexer yesterday who wondered, for instance, about how they handled differentiating among the Spy vs. Spy cartoons. The plot of them were essentially all the same -- lots of lurking -- and since CD indexes are hyperlinks from the index to the desired subject -- how are these subentries (if you will) done? And yes, the review on Monday did say the viewing the content of the CD is frustrating because of exactly what you didn't like -- nothing seems to be a full screen view, so the user has to scroll up and down to view it all. Maybe the index is the best part of the this one. Seems like it would make a great teaching tool because one wouldn't (or might not) be burdened with the MEGO (my eyes glaze over) effect. Is the index called an 'index?' or is it that Search-O-Meter thing? Or are they separate and what's the difference? Or can I take that CD off your hands at a reduced rate and answer all these questions for myself?? Deborah ============================== Deborah E. Patton, Freelance Indexer Baltimore, MD, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 11:02:29 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: pop artist names; and, when rules get in the way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christin Keck wrote: > Well, I imagine it keeps you from ending up with things > like: > > Man, Aqua > Man, Bat > Man, He > Man, Super > Man, X > Woman, Super > Woman, Wonder > etc. You're missing the point. To begin with, names like Batman, Superman, etc. aren't separable, because they are one word. Wonder Woman is two words, but "Woman" is not a surname in that context. It would be more analogous to someone named Sue Anne -- a compound name element, not a given name and surname. "Mickey Mouse" would fall in the same category. And 5 years ago, as a fairly well-educated person who was not yet an indexer, I would have looked them up thus: Batman Mickey Mouse Superman Wonder Woman Actually, there are two other points here, as well. First, most of the names in your example are not the fictional character's real names. They are what the characters are commonly known as, but most of the characters have "real-life" names as well (fictionally speaking.) I think the names Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, etc. are more analogous to real-life singers Madonna and Wynona, who have chosen to be known by a single name. Second, many if not all the names on your list are trademarked; that, too, argues in favor of presenting this sort of name without any inversion. As far as fictional characters with "real" names go, I'm with Michael Wyatt. The average non-indexer, unless also highly trained in literary criticism and/or English, is likelier to look for a fictional character with a realistic name (Tom Sawyer, Elizabeth Bennet, Ebenezer Scrooge, Sherlock Holmes, James T. Kirk, Ally McBeal) under the last name of that character. Not only are they likely to think "surname first" as they have been trained by teachers, librarians, and the phone book, but in many cases, it's the character's last name which comes to mind. How many of you even *know* the first names of Dr. Jekyll; Holmes' sidekick, Dr. Watson; Poirot's sidekick, Hastings; Mr. Micawber; or Jane Eyre's Mr. Rochester? Perhaps one ought to consider the audience when deciding what convention to use. For a lit-crit audience, one could follow the uninverted name convention, as Lillian and Elliot suggest. For a general or mixed audience, the "surname-first" convention appears to me to make more sense. In either case, it would be helpful to provide either cross-references or an explanatory headnote. One should also consider how the character is best known. If the first name is used far more than the last, and you are following the inverted-name convention, a cross-reference would definitely be in order. Similarly, if you are following the uninverted-name convention, and the character is best known by the last name, a cross-reference would be not only helpful, but necessary. Broadening this line of thinking, there are some indexing conventions which (dare I say it) don't make sense to the average index user. Recognizing when breaking the rules makes more sense than following them is one of our jobs; it's part of what makes indexing a job requiring intelligence, thought, and judgement. I recently chose to break alphabetical sorting rules somewhat by placing the works of an author above the (extremely long) string of entries referring to various film and stage adaptations of those works. I felt that it made more sense for the reader to encounter the original work first, rather than have to search for it among (literally) 30 other works by the exact same title. When I had another indexer look at the index, she didn't even notice the "wrong" sort order at first, because it felt so logical as she read it. (Incidentally, I also chose to use a word-by-word sort in this case, because it made my "rule-breaking" far less obvious, and led to a much more logical ordering of entries for this particular situation.) I think we do the reader a far greater service by using "rules" as guidelines, and using reason and judgement to determine when those rules should or should not be followed. And just as in English, rules change over time. Many of us have bewailed the impending demise of "passim," but if its meaning was not apparent to most readers, there wasn't much point in using it. Yes, we need to encourage the teaching of indexing conventions to students at all levels, and I'm not by any means advocating the "dumbing down" of scholarly-book indexing. But if we want indexes to be usable, we need to approach indexing conventions as we approach phrasing of entries: by considering the audience and working to make the index as accessible and user-friendly as possible. Now back to watching the hurricane creep closer and closer, and wondering whether the power will stay on... Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 01:43:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: pop artist names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Wyatt writes, on the issue of not inverting the names of fictional characters: > Why, for goodness sake? This appears to me to be totally opposed to common >sense. I couldn't for a moment ever imagine looking up the name of a > fictional character other than as if it were a real name. It's hard enough > training index users on indexing conventions -- once we've taught them that > names are entered under surname, why do we make an exception for fictional > names? A name is a name is a name -- real or fictional doesn't seem to me to > be an issue. (In fact, to many authors and their commentators the names of > their characters are quite as "real" as real people. Countless surveys > indicate that watchers of TV soaps are often incapable of distinguishing > between real people on TV and characters in TV stories.) I'm quite prepared > to believe you -- I just need some pretty good evidence. > > Michael Wyatt When I first encountered this style, I thought the same way. Now, I understand that it is essential to distinguish real flesh-and-blood humans (dead or alive) from fictional characters, especially those fictional characters who share names with real people. I know that this can get to be a real problem when indexing literary criticism and music criticism. Like it or not, fictional portrayals of historical figures are not intended to be accurate portrayals of those people. Every novelist or composer who put Joan of Arc or Dante or Napoleon or Charles Darwin or Al Capone into a novel or opera has played with the facts to make the character fit the composition. It is essential that the index distinguish between the fictional character and the real person. Of course, put in all the cross-references you need to insure that the readers will find what they are looking for. If there is only one reference to the character, nobody will bring you up on charges for having double-posting the reference, such as in: "Tom Sawyer, 123" and "Sawyer, Tom, 123." However, if you are indexing the papers from a conference on Mark Twain, you are not going to waste space by putting each reference in two places. If some people mix up the fictional characters they see on television with real people, well, it's their problem, not one we should encourage. What it comes down to is that "people," "places" and "things" are mutually exclusive groups and fictional characters are "things," not "people." I'm happy that I usually stay away from indexing literary criticism. [I am not always this deadpan serious.] | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:01:35 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." Subject: Re: pop artist names and MUSIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, I am jumping into the frey here because I am a musician and I must say, I would look up French music under "Music, French". However, I think we must not forget to CONSIDER THE AUDIENCE/READER. As a musician, and familiar with indexes, I would not look up French music because I use this in my speech. I would know an index has major headings, and then the WONDERFUL SUBHEADINGS which get me where I want to go and also tell me if there are any other kinds of music I wish to see, even when I didn't think of them. Just MHO. Smiling, too, and often singing, Ardith Ayotte, R.T. ABBA Index Services ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 12:01 AM Subject: Re: pop artist names > Come now, I know you're kidding. These are not the same cases as last name, > first name for fictional characters. They are more analogous, I believe, to > "French music," which is preferably indexed directly rather than "music, > French," as most people tend to look things up the way they speak - in direct > order. > > There is nothing wrong with having > > Aqua Man > Marner, Silas (fictional) > Wonder Woman > X Man > > Fred Leise > Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services > > > In a message dated 99-09-15 23:41:12 EDT, you write: > > > Man, Aqua > > Man, Bat > > Man, He > > Man, Super > > Man, X > > Woman, Super > > Woman, Wonder ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:06:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." Subject: Re: pop artist names; and, when rules get in the way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good, Kara! I agree (mostly.) Thanks, Ardith p.s. We have 2 families who came to us as "refugees" from Wilmington, N.C. last night. Guess who is awaiting the big H! Go figure! ha ha ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:43:17 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Y2K-generators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone purchased or is anyone seriously considering purchasing a generator to run their computer in case of Y2K power failures? The cheapest generator I've seen is about 700.00. I'm wondering if I would regret not having a generator if I had a $700.00 project due and the power failed. Mostly I am not too worried about Y2K....but don't want to be the only indexer who can't meet a deadline if all the rest of you have generators! Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:46:41 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Y2K-generators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:43 PM 9/16/99 -0400, Paula C. Durbin-Westby wrote: >Has anyone purchased or is anyone seriously considering purchasing a >generator to run their computer in case of Y2K power failures? The >cheapest generator I've seen is about 700.00. I'm wondering if I would >regret not having a generator if I had a $700.00 project due and the power >failed. Mostly I am not too worried about Y2K....but don't want to be the >only indexer who can't meet a deadline if all the rest of you have >generators! IMO, I would not consider buying an expensive item like a generator JUST for possible Y2K problems. If I lived in a place where it was a fairly normal occurrence to lose power, I'd consider it a reasonable investment. Otherwise, no. Remember, if you are having Y2K problems with deadlines, there is a very good chance that the publisher is, too...and the compositor, and the copyeditor, and so on. If I end up accepting jobs that run through the end of the year, I will find out what I need to know about how the publisher plans to deal with Y2K issues, including what leeway is built into the schedule for possible power failures, interrupted mail or UPS delivery, lack of email access, etc. If there are problems, most likely everybody in the chain will be experiencing them...not just indexers. And everybody is going to have to accommodate to the glitches. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:01:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: April Bolton Subject: need expert opinion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to draw on your experience and expertise. Among the things we publish here are a number of four-page (8.5"x11") monthly newsletters. Each issue of the newsletters treats a particular topic and is written by a single author. For three of these newsletters--in publication six years, seventeen years, and twenty-six years--we do annual "sourcebooks" consisting of each issue of the particular publication currently in print, along with author index, title index, and topical index. The topics are rather broad and there has never been a proper keyword index. There are a few rumblings now for better indexes for the sourcebooks for the benefit of our customers and of our customer service people, who are asked to recommend suggestions for material from among our publications on particular topics and issues. We wonder how best to go about it. We're thinking of having someone experienced in such an undertaking--indexing all those back issues--give us a consultation with recommendation and cost estimate. Is this done? Do you think this is the right approach? Do you have better ideas? You may reply to me on the list or at ABolton@AmericanCatholic.org Thanks in advance. April -- April Bolton St. Anthony Messenger Press 1615 Republic Street Cincinnati, Ohio 45210 ph: 513-241-5615, ext. 142 fax: 513-241-0399 e-mail: ABolton@AmericanCatholic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 14:10:01 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Y2K-generators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sonsie said it well. << If there are problems, most likely everybody in the chain will be experiencing them...not just indexers. And everybody is going to have to accommodate to the glitches. >> Should the power grid be affected, likelihood is that it won't be local. In that eventually, there will be consequences of national proportions. Phone systems, computer systems, FedEx, transportation systems ........ business will not be able to run normally then. Then my indexing deadlines will not be an important issue. My clients will have bigger problems than that. So, as far as indexing deadlines, I figure I'll deal with it as it happens. I will take obvious precautions, like being sure I have good backups of critical files, having appropriate copies of bank statements, investment statements, etc, etc ....... in case computers go a-tizzy for a while. Also will probably want to have cash on hand, in a somewhat larger than usual amount. Other than that, I don't plan to make any major investments, like buying a generator. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:17:16 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Re: Estimating In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I keep lots of statistics, too, but they only really help when I am offered a book in the same series as ones I have indexed before. Where I have done several indexes for the same publisher I am getting better at predicting how long they will take. I still find that if a text is rather boring my mind wanders, and that adds more time, and conversely when I'm working on something I'm really interested in I tend to reflect on it - and that adds more time too. Estimating is often the hardest part of the job. Best wishes Sue >I have been collecting data for some time on such parameters as >length of book, length of index, time taken etc. This refers to over >100 jobs and I am still unable to discern any trend of correlation >when comparing one figure with another. If there were one, it would >be most helpful in giving estimates. In many cases I guess right, >though I couldn't say why. In some cases I am quite wrong. > >Obviously there are factors I have not quantified such as difficulty of >the text (whatever that means), complications about receiving proofs >or other events during the course of indexing, etc. Perhaps external >factors affecting speed of thought, such as life events. > >I would be interested in experience of methods of estimating other >than guessing! > >Regards > >_John Sampson_ -------------------------- Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader Polperro, Cornwall, England email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk -------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: fictional names (was: pop artist names) In-Reply-To: <199909160401.AAA09960@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I totally agree with Elliot. Fictional characters are frequently included >in indexes for volumes of literary criticism and are never inverted. Do you or Elliot have a reference for this? I don't remember ever hearing this rule before, nor do I find anything in Mulvany or Wellisch. How do others out there handle fictional names? As a reader, I think I'd look them up under their last names. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:25:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: pop artist names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael Wyatt writes on name inversion and fictional characters: > > Why, for goodness sake? This appears to me to be totally opposed to >common >>sense. > I'm quite >prepared > to believe you -- I just need some pretty good evidence. and Elliot Linzer replies: > Like it or not, fictional portrayals of historical figures are not >intended to be accurate portrayals of those people. Every novelist or >composer who put Joan of Arc or Dante or Napoleon or Charles Darwin or Al >Capone into a novel or opera has played with the facts to make the >character fit the composition. It is essential that the index >distinguish between the fictional character and the real person. > > What it comes down to is that "people," "places" and "things" are >mutually exclusive groups and fictional characters are "things," not >"people." Exactly right! But I also agree with Kara that sometimes rules can get in the way; these decisions are the choices we make as indexers. As to quoting authorities on the subject, most are silent. CMS doesn't cover fictional names, nor does _Words Into Type_; Mulvany comes the closest in her discussions of "obscure names" or "common usage". (Can someone check out Wellisch on the topic?) But I think that Elliot's point that fictional characters are "things" and not "people" and that a distinction must be made between them is right on target. Here is a group of listings in a lit crit index I recently finished: "Cathy" (Wuthering Heights), ix-x, 3, 154 "David Wilson" (Pudd'nhead Wilson), 163ff, 182-83, 193-96, 200-1 "Grendel" (Beowulf), 3-4, 17, 198, 219n. 13 "Ishmael" (Moby Dick), 3 "Lavinia" (Titus Andronicus), 3, 10, 53f, 68-80 passim, 220nn. 16,17 As you can see, most of the entries do not include last names and I could easily have left out "Wilson" in the entry that does (probably should have!), or change the entry to "Wilson", except that the character is referred to as "David Wilson." Nevertheless, if you are looking up character names, you most likely will be looking up one-word names so the question of to invert or not to invert doesn't often come into play. Also, a distinction is made by putting the name in quotes and using a head note to the index to explain the structure used. I did some checking in actual books last night and ran across an "Index of Characters" in an old College Outline Series book: _Tudor and Stuart Plays_. (Talk about obscure references!) Here, the names of characters are inverted, but the entire index consists of character names and is clearly identified as such. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 20:45:25 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: fictional characters In-Reply-To: <19990916.123953.-112075.0.elinzer@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I read an old essay on 'The Woman in White' which put quote marks round the names of characters, e.g 'Count Fosco' - it seemed quite a good idea. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: pop artist names; and, when rules get in the way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > Christin Keck wrote: > > > Well, I imagine it keeps you from ending up with things > > like: > > > > Man, Aqua > > Man, Bat > > Man, He > > Man, Super > > Man, X > > Woman, Super > > Woman, Wonder > > etc. > > You're missing the point. No, _you_ missed the point. I was JOKING. Sheesh. -- CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" AKA "Jumping Cat's Whisker" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 17:48:33 -0300 Reply-To: Noeline Bridge Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Fictional names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Here is a group of listings in a lit crit index I recently finished: > > "Cathy" (Wuthering Heights), ix-x, 3, 154 > "David Wilson" (Pudd'nhead Wilson), 163ff, 182-83, 193-96, 200-1 > "Grendel" (Beowulf), 3-4, 17, 198, 219n. 13 > "Ishmael" (Moby Dick), 3 > "Lavinia" (Titus Andronicus), 3, 10, 53f, 68-80 passim, 220nn. 16,17 > > As you can see, most of the entries do not include last names and I could > easily have left out "Wilson" in the entry that does (probably should > have!), or change the entry to "Wilson", except that the character is > referred to as "David Wilson." Nevertheless, if you are looking up > character names, you most likely will be looking up one-word names so the > question of to invert or not to invert doesn't often come into play. Also, a > distinction is made by putting the name in quotes and using a head note to > the index to explain the structure used. But what would you do with literary criticism of novels whose characters mostly belong to families and have first and last names? For example, a book I have on Jane Austen's novels has the following index entries: Bates, Miss Bennet, Elizabeth Bennet family Bertram, Edmund Crawford, Henry among others, all of the above being fictional characters. It would seem to me to be quite unhelpful if the individual characters had been entered under the first elements of their names--Miss Bates, Mr. Elton, e.g.--which would then group them in the index by marital status and first names, and not family names, thus removing Henry and Mary Crawford from each other, and detaching Elizabeth Bennet from her family. How useful would it be to have Lady Catherine de Burgh under Lady, or to group the Catherines thus, Catherine Bennet Catherine de Burgh Catherine Morland ? I must say that it would never have occurred to me to look up fictional characters with first and last names by the first only, or under Mr., Miss etc.; I'm quite sure I've never seen them presented that way in indexes I've consulted in my reading. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: pop artist names; and, when rules get in the way MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi! Thanks for forwarding the stuff about website indexing. You're really doing a great job at getting yourself trained and ready to go. Let me know how it goes with Grolier's! (And keep me in mind, if they ever need more indexing than you can handle on your own.) > p.s. We have 2 families who came to us as "refugees" from Wilmington, N.C. > last night. Guess who is awaiting the big H! Go figure! ha ha Ah, but the worst appears to have missed us, thanks be to God. I know it's not quite over; there's still quite a bit of wind out there, and the sheer quantity of rainfall suggests that there will be some flooding of major rivers for the next few days at least. But all in all, I think this area dodged the bullet. Gert looks to blow up into the Atlantic, at least at this point, so I think we can all heave a sigh of relief and get back to indexing. Phew! God bless, Kara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: more on MAD CD In-Reply-To: <199909161132.HAA20564@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Since you have the MAD CD, would you tell us a little about how the index > for it works?? I was talking with another indexer yesterday who wondered, > for instance, about how they handled differentiating among the Spy vs. Spy > cartoons. First off, it's not at all obvious how to invoke the Search-O-Meter. Or anything else, for that matter. The program shows a full-screen picture of a garbage-strewn alley. As you hover the cursor over items in the garbage pile, clickable items light up and display a text description of what they do. The S-O-M is near the bottom right corner. It pops up a dialog box wherein you can specify search keywords. For what little experimenting I did, I'm really impressed with the indexing. Obviously done with human intervention. For instance, a search on Spy vs. Spy yields a list of each strip with a brief description: "Clubbed from inside tree", "Electric spaghetti dinner", etc. The list shows you which CD each one appears on and you have the option of jumping to a selected item. As I said, I have an extensive collection going back to 1958, so I did a search on a couple of items I remember from early issues. A search on "Cadillac" took me to two satires of Cadillac ads from 1959. One other quirk: Having jumped to a slected item, clicking on "Back" takes me back to the garbage in the alley, and not back into S-O-M. The good news is that I can jump from the alley back into S-O-M and pick up where I left off. A little investigation showed that there is an alternative to the Back button that does take me back to S-O-M: It's a button with a picture of a Spy on it. Overall, I'd really like to know how they indexed it. Maybe we could get the indexer(s) to speak at the conference? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:28:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: pop artist names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elliot Linzer responded good-humouredly to my rather ill-tempered reply: > Now, I > understand that it is essential to distinguish real flesh-and-blood > humans (dead or alive) from fictional characters ... What I don't see is why it is essential to make this distinction when there is no confusion. Or even why it is desirable. I can't see who is served. Either the index-user already knows this when they look it up; or if they don't, they'll find out when they follow up the page reference. > ... especially those > fictional characters who share names with real people. > Like it or not, fictional portrayals of historical figures are not > intended to be accurate portrayals of those people. Every novelist or > composer who put Joan of Arc or Dante or Napoleon or Charles Darwin or Al > Capone into a novel or opera has played with the facts to make the > character fit the composition. It is essential that the index > distinguish between the fictional character and the real person. Okay, but only to avoid misleading the user. I cannot accept that the user is going to think, "I want Charles Darwin the person, so I'll look up D", and then "Now I want Charles Darwin the fictional character, so I'll look up C." As I keep pointing out on this list, there is no evidence that index-users stop to think about their search strategy before turning to the index. If it is reasonable to suppose that the real Charles Darwin and his fictional counterpart might appear in the same book, I might use "Darwin, Charles (character in "XYZ")". If they did both appear in the same index, I would consider treating them as the same person (because undoubtedly to the reader they are): Darwin, Charles begins "Origin of species" fictionalised in "XYZ" visits Australia > If some people mix up the fictional characters they see on television > with real people, well, it's their problem, not one we should encourage. Our readers' problems are our problems. It's what we're paid for. That's why we do not use the same indexing techniques for an elementary school textbook as we do for a post-graduate university textbook, even though the latter may be more "correct". > What it comes down to is that "people," "places" and "things" are > mutually exclusive groups and fictional characters are "things," not > "people." First, I disagree totally. Fictional people are not things, they are people. People are not just flesh and bones, they are emotions, responses, reactions to stimuli, creators of events, they laugh and cry, they fall in and out of love -- Elizabeth Bennet is not just a glob of gunk in sprigged muslin. From over here, I have absolutely no proof that Bill Clinton is a real person, he could well be a fiction dreamt up by a journalists' conspiracy. To me, he is no more or less real than Elizabeth B. But most importantly, I don't think "people, places and things" is the issue here, if it ever is. To my way of thinking, the issue is not (or even is never) one of type of entity, but one of type of name. It's not "Is it a book, a ship, a town, a woman, a chemical, a song, or a character in a play?" Rather, it's "Is one element of this name a family-type name, and if so which is it, and if not which element is the user likely to expect as the entry point?" Please don't take any of this personally. I've been stuck in a small mining town for 12 months with no-one to talk to but you lot. It's kept me sane, believe me. (Typical in-depth dialogue as experienced by me: "Gidday mate, beaut weather, innit? Who dya reckonll win the footy this arvo?") Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services ex-22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia, temporarily absent for sins unremembered Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 23:58:44 -0400 Reply-To: Nevermind@nospam.me Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Organization: Never. It spoils my system. Subject: Re: pop artist names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Wyatt wrote: I think I agree with you Michael. You're basically saying that how a fictional character's name gets into the index ought to be however it is going to be most useful to the reader--is that correct? This is why I was treating the topic with humor. I know that Batman isn't going to be indexed as Man, Bat. I know Mickey Mouse isn't going to appear as Mouse, Mickey. But, don't we all? I had a hard time believing that there was any real argument. To me, it was more amusing than serious. I suppose there might be some instances where you would have a list of fictional character names to put into an index, but if you did, wouldn't you be able to distinguish whether they would be more "findable" if they were inverted or not inverted _before_ you actually wrote the index? I doubt somehow that there would be this much agony in the actual situation. -- Christin Keck CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" VISIT THE WORLD OF WHISLBABE: http://www.geocities.com/soho/square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 10:20:28 +0100 Reply-To: jsampson@indexes.u-net.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "J.R. Sampson" Subject: Re: communication failures In-Reply-To: <37E1508B.A6A198EF@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > No, _you_ missed the point. I was JOKING. > Sheesh. I reckon misunderstandings of this sort are why they have emoticons e.g. :-) for a smiley. One has to allow for the narrow bandwidth of communication in email - one can't hear tone of voice or see faces. Regards _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:53:01 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jon & Glenda Subject: Re: pop artist names In-Reply-To: <001f01bf0066$496233e0$17906ccb@michaelw> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Wyatt says: >Lillian Ashworth says: > > > > I totally agree with Elliot. Fictional characters are frequently included in indexes for volumes of literary criticism and are never inverted. > > Why, for goodness sake? This appears to me to be totally opposed to common > sense. I couldn't for a moment ever imagine looking up the name of a > fictional character other than as if it were a real name. It's hard enough > training index users on indexing conventions -- once we've taught > them that names are entered under surname, why do we make an exception for fictional > names? I recently indexed a book of literary criticism, following this principle, and encountered the following difficulties: i) Incomplete names - what to do when the character is only ever referred to (by the critic and/or the original author) just as 'Magwitch' or 'Jane'? Do you try and infer a first name or surname, or just omit it? ii) Consistently used nicknames - who would look for Pip in _Great Expectations_ under Pirrip, Phillip? iii) What to do with honorifics - Bennett, Mr., or Bennett, Mr. James, or Bennett, James (Mr.)? iv) British aristocrats who change names completely in midstream - Escott, Daniel, becomes Viscount Grayling becomes Lord Partridge. v) The custom of referring to the eldest unmarried Smith sister as 'Miss Smith', so Miss Sarah Smith suddenly becomes Miss Smith when her elder sister marries. Admittedly these apply to real names too, but an extra layer of difficulty is added by the fact that a fictional character may not HAVE a 'real' name other than a nickname or first name; even if they have one it may never be used in the original novel; or if used in the novel it may not be used in the criticism or commentary being indexed. I still think that using surnames is the best approach, but we need to recognise that there are difficulties. A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can be found on my Web site at http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm Jonathan. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 22:50:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: Estimating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Sampson said: > I have been collecting data for some time on such parameters as > length of book, length of index, time taken etc. > > I would be interested in experience of methods of estimating other > than guessing! > Some years ago I began subcontracting out various indexing processes, and I wanted to ensure that clients would be charged a comparable rate for a comparable product, regardless of who wrote the index or how long it took them, so I developed a schedule fee. After much study I concluded that the cost of indexing a book is based primarily on the number of location references that result. Clearly other factors play a part, but I discovered to my surprise that the length of the text, other than determining the number of location references, has almost no effect! Using my schedule fee, I am able to estimate fairly accurately how much a book will cost to index simply by marking up a few typical pages. Here is a rather simplified version of my charging schedule. Prices are in Australian dollars, but I'm sure you can work out the equivalent in your own currency. Page references: As I said, the cost of an index is determined by the number of location references. I also found that a topic discussed over a span of pages costs half as much again as a topic discussed on a single page. To arrive at a "chargeable unit", I add the number of records to the number of location records (both these figures are provided by both Cindex and SKY Index). I multiply the result by 40 cents. Navigation aids: Books with explanatory headings and subheadings are easier to index. I calculate the "chargeable units" for headings and subheadings separately, and multiply by 35 cents. Names: Name indexes are often quicker to compile, because the text does not need to be read with such a depth of understanding. I charge 30 cents per chargeable unit for name indexes. If an index has many names but I still have to read it carefully for subjects, I charge 35 cents per chargeable unit for the names and 40 cents for the subjects. Complexity: There are a number of what are termed "readability indexes" (index as in mathematics, not as in book). The best-known is Gunning's Fog Index. These purport to indicate how many years of formal education a reader needs to have completed in order to understand the text. (According to this, one postgraduate text that I recently indexed required 28 years of formal education! The editor just laughed.) I discovered that any number below 10 does not materially affect the time required to index. For any number over ten I multiply my basic charge by one-tenth of the readability index number -- so if the readability index number is 13, I multiply by 1.3. Type of text: Some types of book do not fall into this type of charging scheme at all. Examples are craft books, cookery books, and directories. Number of authors: When you are writing an index, part of the process is thinking yourself into the author's head. If there are many authors, and no attempt has been made to rewrite the contributions into a single voice -- conference proceedings are typical -- you have to repeat this process for each author. To cover this, I add 1 per cent for each additional author. "Service": The costing process covers an initial consultation, a reasonable number of phone calls, and materials such as stationery. There are times, however, when you will have a particularly troublesome job, or a client who phones you up or faxes you constantly, often when you are working on another job, or taking some time off. I have contemplated introducing (but have not done so) an additional fee, as solicitors do, for each "service", that is, each time I answer the phone or respond to a fax or email, of say $7. It seems unfair that Client B should pay for all the interruptions that Client A makes while I'm working on Client B's job. It's even more unfair that I should constantly interrupt my leisure time -- heaven knows, there's not much of it, and I've earned it! Ballpark figures: From time to time someone phones for an estimate, but does not have any copy ready to send me. They waffle on about how many pages the book is and what would such a book cost to index. The answer, of course, is "How long is a piece of string?" I suggest that they go through a few pages marking what they would expect to find in the index, multiply by the number of pages in the book, and multiply the answer by 80 cents. I stress that this is not a quote, but simply an indication of "how many zeros to put on the end". These fee schedules allow me to quote fairly accurately. If I have underquoted, I wear it, and resolve to fine-tune the process. If I have over-quoted, I split the difference between the quote and the cost to myself -- I get more money than I have earned, and the client gets a nice surprise: win-win. I hope this has been helpful. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 09:34:59 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: communication failures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > No, _you_ missed the point. I was JOKING. > > Sheesh. > > I reckon misunderstandings of this sort are why they have > emoticons e.g. :-) for a smiley. One has to allow for the narrow > bandwidth of communication in email - one can't hear tone of voice > or see faces. And I'll add that, regardless of whether Christin was joking or serious, it has sparked some interesting discussion. For instance, I hadn't considered Elliot's point about needing to distinguish between real people and fictional representations of them. A book on Shakespeare's works, for instance, might include references to both real kings and characters in his plays. There are several ways to handle that sort of distinction. If there are only a few references to the fictional character, one could use a subhead like "in Shakespeare's plays" or "fictional representations of." If there are enough references to both the fictional character and the real person to warrant subheadings for each, however, a distinction must be made in the heading, probably using parentheses: "Henry V" and "Henry V (in Shakespeare's plays)", for example. Christin is right; *if* we use good judgement in the context of a given index, we will probably not have to think about it this hard at the time, since the "right" way to do it -- for that book -- may be clear. But I find it helpful, as an indexer with only a few years experience, to hear the reasoning of more experienced indexers who have encountered situations I haven't encountered yet. It exposes me to possible solutions I might not have thought up on my own, or challenges me to think through my own position. So thank you, Christin, for opening the opportunity for this discussion, however inadvertently. (And Christin -- I had no way to know whether you were joking. I couldn't contact you directly, because of your return email address. You identified yourself as new to the list, so I hadn't had time to get to know your "style." You didn't include any language or emoticons to make it clear you were joking. And I've seen suggestions put forward in exactly the same way that were not intended as jokes. I interpreted your remarks as best I could, given the circumstances. I'm sorry you were annoyed by my response.) Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:37:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christin Keck Subject: Re: communication failures MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John and Kara Pekar wrote: > > > > No, _you_ missed the point. I was JOKING. > > > Sheesh. > > > > I reckon misunderstandings of this sort are why they have > > emoticons e.g. :-) for a smiley. One has to allow for the narrow > > bandwidth of communication in email - one can't hear tone of voice > > or see faces. > > And I'll add that, regardless of whether Christin was joking or serious, it > has sparked some interesting discussion. For instance, I hadn't considered > Elliot's point about needing to distinguish between real people and > fictional representations of them. A book on Shakespeare's works, for > instance, might include references to both real kings and characters in his > plays. There are several ways to handle that sort of distinction. If > there are only a few references to the fictional character, one could use a > subhead like "in Shakespeare's plays" or "fictional representations of." > If there are enough references to both the fictional character and the real > person to warrant subheadings for each, however, a distinction must be made > in the heading, probably using parentheses: "Henry V" and "Henry V (in > Shakespeare's plays)", for example. > > Christin is right; *if* we use good judgement in the context of a given > index, we will probably not have to think about it this hard at the time, > since the "right" way to do it -- for that book -- may be clear. But I > find it helpful, as an indexer with only a few years experience, to hear > the reasoning of more experienced indexers who have encountered situations > I haven't encountered yet. It exposes me to possible solutions I might not > have thought up on my own, or challenges me to think through my own > position. So thank you, Christin, for opening the opportunity for this > discussion, however inadvertently. > > (And Christin -- I had no way to know whether you were joking. I couldn't > contact you directly, because of your return email address. You identified > yourself as new to the list, so I hadn't had time to get to know your > "style." You didn't include any language or emoticons to make it clear you > were joking. And I've seen suggestions put forward in exactly the same way > that were not intended as jokes. I interpreted your remarks as best I > could, given the circumstances. I'm sorry you were annoyed by my > response.) Well, no harm done! and I thought I DID put a smiley in my message! I'm sorry if it wasn't clear! I laugh a lot at myself and other things, as you can tell if you visit my web site. ;-D Anyway, it WAS kinda interesting to talk about. -- Christin Keck CK, or as they say in Spain, "Yes, what?" Visit the World of Whislbabe: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/4033/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 11:05:05 -0700 Reply-To: nkoenig Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: nkoenig Subject: Re: fictional names (was: pop artist names) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been following this thread with a good deal of interest. I recently completed a project that raised the issue of fictional names. The editor hadn't really thought about this question and just said to invert them. Since the book was clearly intended for high school/lower division college students, I saw no problem with this. I did convince her that the fictional names needed to be indexed under the uninverted forms as well. After all, the characters were usually referred to by their first names and I try to index under forms most likely to be a reader's first choice when looking in an index. If there is a tradition of not inverting fictional names in industrial strength literary criticism texts, I am more than happy to follow it. When I got this project I realized that virtually all the literary criticism I have ever read has dealt with poetry and drama. So, I had no models to emulate. It wasn't really heavy lit. crit. anyway. On the other hand, I am sceptical that the source of such a tradition is the necessity of distinguishing names of fictional characters by not inverting them. If someone has enough interest to tackle a 500 page tome on Mark Twain, surely this fanatic is likely to know that Tom Sawyer is a fictional character. For my part, I would be more likely to look under Tom, simple because Twain so often calls him that. Some writers prefer first names and others prefer last names, as other INDEX-Lers have pointed out. The form under which a reader is most likely to look for information in an index may well be related to the proclivities of the writer and not to any established tradition. Now, concerning the relative merits of the fictional and the non-fictional, I recall a scene from Woody Allen's Purple Rose of Cairo. The heroine has fallen for a movie character who has come down off the screen and is telling her husband that she is leaving him (I quote roughly): "I've found someone else. He loves me and he treats me good. He's fictional, but nobody's perfect." Surely fictional characters are good enough to warrant name inversion, at least when it might help the reader. Indeed, our heroine eventually dumps her fictional character for the non-fictional actor who portrayed him but is promptly dumped by this non- fictional cad the very next day. I suppose Woody was trying to tell us something. Thank you all for a very interesting airing of issues. Nick Koenig ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 14:01:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan_Weiss@TAX.ORG Subject: student internship Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tax Analysts, a non-profit, multi-media legal tax publisher is looking for either a Law student or a Library student for an open-ended internship. Primary function of this intern will be to do maintenance and development on our thesaurus. Must be familiar with indexing, knowledge of Cindex software a plus. 15 hours per week in a casual work environment, metro accessible (East Falls Church). Please submit resume to Human Resources, Attn: RS, 6830 N. Fairfax Drive, Arlington, VA 22213, fax to (703)533-4619, or e-mail to hr@tax.org. No phone calls please. EOE. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 19:07:40 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: pop artist names Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I agree with Nick Koenig that this has been an informative thread. I also wish to thank all who contributed on-list and off to my original query about Snoop Doggy Dogg. FWIW I have indexed him under the letter S and have included no reference whatever to his (unmentioned in the text) birth name of Calvin Broadus. Thanks! Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@mindspring.com www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 20:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Bealle Subject: Re: fictional names (was: pop artist names) In-Reply-To: <000601bf0137$2ca05f80$9d330d3f@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For what it's worth, I looked at the MLA International Bibliography to see how it treats fictional characters. I don't mean to suggest this as a replacement for good intuition, but it seems it does give an idea of conventional practice. Here is a sample of how different types of names are handled in this reference work. I used both the online version, where names are listed in the non-classifying facets at the bottom of the reference, and the printed version, where this information is extracted into a subject index. It is useful to note that the folklore volume contributes names that blur the edges of fiction and reality, and, thereby, to see how little a name's status as fictional or real figures into the decision to invert it. "Bloom, Molly (character)" - fictional character. Note that "(character)" indicates that fact. This example is given in the instruction manual for field bibliographers. "Sawyer, Tom (character)" "Crane, Ichabod (character)" "Tucker, Dan (character)" ("Old Dan Tucker," minstrel song character) "Railroad Bill" [real person with legendary persona] "Little Richard" (real pop singer with colloquial name) "Hurt, Mississippi John" (real blues singer with attached colloquial name) "Arthur, King. *Used for:* King Arthur" - [many, many examples of this one] "Robin Hood" "Tuck, Friar" "Santa Claus. *Used for:* Father Christmas" "Nicholas, Saint" "Peter, Saint" "Mickey Mouse" "Howlin' Wolf" (real blues singer with colloquial name) "Bunyan, Paul" or "Paul Bunyan" [legendary figure with real-sounding name) - Of a dozen or so citations for Paul Bunyan, the inverted one outnumbered the noninverted ones about three to one. I presume the variation is due to error, and that the inverted form is the preferred one. Although nowhere does it say so, I believe the operative logic is this: where the last name appears to resemble a legitimate family name--whether fictional, real, or in between--invert. John Bealle ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:36:49 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: >A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can be >found >on my Web site at >http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm That should have been http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermeyIBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm. Apologies. Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:51:10 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Correction to correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: >A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can be >found >on my Web site at >http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm That SHOULD have been http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm. The more haste, the less speed. Apologies again, Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 04:14:36 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indextrous Subject: Phone Time when Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF018C.51ACEDC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF018C.51ACEDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a new marketer. I checked my phone records for the last two = months. As my long distance carrier does not total the minutes (and it = is 4:30 a.m. here) you'll have to trust my math. I came up with 205 = minutes in marketing and 25 minutes in talking with a publisher about = one job. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF018C.51ACEDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am a new marketer. I checked = my phone=20 records for the last two months. As my long distance carrier does = not=20 total the minutes (and it is 4:30 a.m. here) you'll have to trust my = math. =20 I came up with 205 minutes in marketing and 25 minutes in talking with a = publisher about one job.

------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01BF018C.51ACEDC0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:40:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Phone Time when Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My reaction to this is: you spent considerably less for those 205 phone minutes, even at long-distance rates, than you would have spent to attend a conference and meet potential clients face to face. Nothing in marketing yourself is guaranteed. I'd say the "risk" involved in making the phone calls was well rewarded if you managed to connect with one editor interested in hiring you. By the way, how many calls were included in the 205 total? If that represents 20 calls and you managed to get one editor to talk to you about an actual project, I'd say that way pretty good odds, or better than I would expect through cold calling. (Assuming that your list of calls wasn't pre-selected to favor editors someone had told you were looking for indexers at the moment.) Did you precede these calls with a letter? Did these editors have any information about you before the phone rang? If the only marketing you are doing is through cold calling, you can spend a lot of money with few results, in my opinion. I prefer to send a visual cue (such as a letter saying you will be calling or a brochure with a cover letter), because the editor can read it at his/her leisure (less intrusive than a phone call) and you can reflect your working skills better in a printed document than over the phone. (Or at least I can.) Since I hate telemarketers, I try not to be one. Just my 2 cents about cold calls. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 15:50:22 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Lightfoot Subject: Re: (pop artist) Fictional names In-Reply-To: <000701bf00f2$6e03ed60$abcf23cb@pentium> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wellisch suggests putting fictional names in quotes to distinguish them from real people. The Concise Oxford Companion to English Literature distinguishes typographically between real names and fictional names, thus: _Bennett_, Mr and Mrs, Jane, Elizabeth, Mary, Kitty, and Lydia, characters in J. Austen's _Pride and Prejudice_. _BENNETT_, Alan (1934-), dramatist and actor . . . _Pip_, in Dicken's _Great Expectations_, the name by which the hero, Philip Pirrip, is commonly known. _Pipchin_, Mrs, in Dickens's _Dombey and Son_, a boarding-house keeper in Brighton. If these were all in the same index, wouldn't this fit the bill: Bennett, Alan "Bennett, Elizabeth" "Bennett, Jane" "Bennett, Mr" "Pip (Philip Pirrip)" "Pipchin, Mrs" Sue Lightfoot >ii) Consistently used nicknames - who would look for Pip in _Great >Expectations_ under Pirrip, Phillip? > >iii) What to do with honorifics - Bennett, Mr., or Bennett, Mr. James, or >Bennett, James (Mr.)? -------------------------- Sue Lightfoot - Indexer, Proofreader Polperro, Cornwall, England email: slightfoot@macace.co.uk -------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 08:39:12 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Middleton Subject: Re: Phone Time when Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BECohen653@AOL.COM wrote: > > I prefer to send a visual cue (such as a letter saying you will be calling or > a brochure with a cover letter), because the editor can read it at his/her > leisure (less intrusive than a phone call) and you can reflect your working > skills better in a printed document than over the phone. (Or at least I can.) > > Since I hate telemarketers, I try not to be one. > > Just my 2 cents about cold calls. > > Barbara E. Cohen > Indianapolis, IN As a new indexer just beginning to market, I am wondering how you know to whom to address the letter/brochure if you do not call first to find out (1) whether they hire freelance indexers and (2) to whom to address your materials. I would much prefer not making cold calls since I agree with Barbara that I hate telemarketers. Some seem to be having good results by cold calling, however. Jean Middleton IndexEmpire Indexing Services http://www.indexempire.com Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 11:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: susanhernandez@JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Marketing through phone calls (was Phone Time) On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 10:40:28 EDT BECohen653@AOL.COM writes: > >By the way, how many calls were included in the 205 total? If that >represents >20 calls and you managed to get one editor to talk to you about an >actual >project, I'd say that way pretty good odds, or better than I would >expect >through cold calling. >Did you precede these calls with a letter? Did these editors have any >information about you before the phone rang? If the only marketing you >are >doing is through cold calling, you can spend a lot of money with few >results, >in my opinion. > >I prefer to send a visual cue (such as a letter saying you will be >calling or >a brochure with a cover letter), because the editor can read it at >his/her >leisure (less intrusive than a phone call) and you can reflect your >working >skills better in a printed document than over the phone. (Or at least >I can.) > >Since I hate telemarketers, I try not to be one. > I disagree that marketing "cold calls" are a form of telemarketing. First, my definition of "cold call" is to call a publisher and ask the operator if I can speak to the person who can tell me if they hire freelance indexers. Once I am connected to that person my purpose is not specifically to sell myself, but rather to get information. I don't say anything like "Hi, I'm an indexer and did you realize that indexes can sell books? Hire me and I will help sell your books." No, I say "I am calling to ask if you hire freelance indexers." If the answer is yes, I tell them what I index, (after already done the research to know that's what they publish), and ask to send my resume and samples. I then repeat my name, and tell them they will receive my letter in a few days. I think the precursor of a phone call is efficient and cost effective. I now know this publisher does hire indexers and exactly who to send the letter to, and they know to expect my letter and not view it as junk mail from a totally unknown person. A phone call costs considerably less than postage for nine pages in a marketing packet. If I had only written letters to the 200 publishers I wanted to contact in my subject areas, I would have spent literally hundreds of dollars and been forced to send them all to the unknown "Editorial Director," and my chances of getting work from them,and even knowing if my letter was ever received, are almost non-existent. You don't have a name, you can't say "I'll follow up and call in two weeks" because you don't know who to call, and they are not going to call you because they have other things to do. And you can't keep sending marketing updates as your experience improves because you don't know if your first letter ever got there! As in many things in indexing, marketing techniques vary by person, and if you're doing something that works for you, than there isn't any reason to change. But I expect to market the same way for all the years I am indexing - even when I have hundreds of books indexed, I will still call before I mail anything. - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:00:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen G Kasoff Subject: Re: Correction I'm still getting a HTTP/1.0 404 object not found. Suellen On Sat, 18 Sep 1999 19:36:49 +1000 Jonathan Jermey writes: >I wrote: > >>A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can >be >>found >>on my Web site at >>http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm > >That should have been >http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermeyIBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm. > >Apologies. > >Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:03:12 -0700 Reply-To: Homer Ellison Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: Re: Correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon, The latest address you gave is missing a slash. The address should read: http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm HTH, Homer -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Jermey To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 2:42 AM Subject: Correction >I wrote: > >>A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can be >>found >>on my Web site at >>http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm > >That should have been >http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermeyIBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm. > >Apologies. > >Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 16:04:17 -0700 Reply-To: Homer Ellison Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: Re: Correction to correction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please disregard my last post. I didn't see that Jon had already corrected it. Sorry! Homer -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Jermey To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Date: Saturday, September 18, 1999 3:55 AM Subject: Correction to correction >I wrote: > >>A different slant on the results of indexing literary criticism can be >>found >>on my Web site at >>http://www.hermes.net.au/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm > >That SHOULD have been >http://www.hermes.net.au/jonjermey/IBG/postmodernism_and_the_internet.htm. > >The more haste, the less speed. > >Apologies again, > >Jon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 18:25:26 -0700 Reply-To: Homer Ellison Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Homer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1999 23:46:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: fictional names In-Reply-To: <199909170402.AAA23298@bingnet2.cc.binghamton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It is essential that the index >distinguish between the fictional character and the real person. That in itself doesn't imply that the names must be inverted. One could do this: Sawyer, Tom (fictional character) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 10:06:49 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing through phone calls (was Phone Time) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't disagree about calling for information. But then, I wouldn't consider the 205 minutes of calls as marketing calls, I'd consider them information-gathering and not expect any work-related discussion to ensue at that time. Then I would send a follow-up letter and brochure. In other words, I'd have a different expectation about the results (or I would define "results" in a different way). If you called 100 companies and got 100 responses about indexing (yes, no, maybe, along with a name), then you got 100 "positive" responses by my definition. Perhaps I misread your initial posting, but I thought you represented yourself as having made 205 minutes of calls with only one positive response. (Which I still thought was a good ratio, by the way.) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 12:25:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: SHughes512@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Phone Time when Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-09-18 11:54:22 EDT, jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET writes: << I would much prefer not making cold calls since I agree with Barbara that I hate telemarketers. Some seem to be having good results by cold calling, >> Before I became interested in indexing as a way to provide extra income and security ( I was doing research and dependent on government grants) I was a part-time real estate broker. I did a lot of cold calling until I discovered that I could reach a bigger and more receptive market by publishing a newsletter focused on the interests of the people in the area where I was working . I also started and hosted an AOL forum for real estate agents/brokers. So I had a LOT of marketing and networking experience. The cold calling was painful but it worked. When I started indexing full-time, I needed to build my client base. I found that the old techniques worked well, and while I was gathering information about publishers and their needs, I found that calling potential clients about indexing jobs was a world away from the kind of cold calling you do in telemarketing. Its much more personal and there is usually a good exchange of information. Editors who use freelance indexers are mostly interested in seeing your resume. They like having indexing resources "in the bank". The method of calling to extablish the accuracy of your information and to speak with an editor who hires indexers, asking if you can send your resume to be kept on file, then following up with your resume and finally calling back to see if they received your information and if they have any questions about your background seems to be effective. When people are reminded of your name three times in a brief period they are more likely to remember you. Remember to ask if they know of anyone else who is hiring indexers. Editors know editors and they often hear things. You have to ask for the referral and the work. On the other hand, I find that networking with other indexers is the most efficient way to find work. And much less painful than calling strangers. Join your local chapter, volunteer and get known. Put your name in the local directory if they have one. Volunteer for projects for the national society. Let people know you are building your client base. They may think of you when they have extra work. When you are chatting while folding brochures etc, ask if anyone knows of publishers who are hiring or building a list of indexers, or if they have a client who they feel pays too little and they are thinking of taking off their list, their pay might be right for a newcomer. Ask if they would pass your name or resume along, or give you the telephone number of the editor. Just as editors sometime take indexers off their lists for odd and unexpected reasons, indexers sometimes want to stop working for editors for their own, mostly financial, reasons. Oops this got longer than I expected. Hope some of this is useful. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 17:41:13 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Generator problems (was Y2K-generators) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I just saw this post while catching up on my e-mail after being shut down by Floyd for a few days. Having just spent 3 1/2 days on generator power, I have discovered a reason to not use one to power my computer! Since Hugo, which left us without power for over a week, we have our generator set up to power several circuits in our home (main breaker off, of course, for the safety of the power company workers). Right after my husband started the generator on Thursday morning and flipped the breakers to turn on the power, there was a terrible power surge. As a result we have a substantial list of casualties including our TV and the surge protector/UPS for my computer. This apparently had something to do with the muffler being loose on the generator. I would definitely suggest a *very* good surge protector for anyone planning to use a generator to power their computer. Well, back to clean-up operations. We finally got power back last night, and my hearing is coming back to normal after three days of listening to a generator run with no muffler! ;-) Ann Truesdale near Charleston, SC > Has anyone purchased or is anyone seriously considering purchasing a > generator to run their computer in case of Y2K power failures? The > cheapest generator I've seen is about 700.00. I'm wondering if I would > regret not having a generator if I had a $700.00 project due and the power > failed. Mostly I am not too worried about Y2K....but don't want to be the > only indexer who can't meet a deadline if all the rest of you have > generators! > > Paula Durbin-Westby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:55:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Phone Time when Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sharon, I completely agree about the networking suggestion. See Kate Mertes's article in this KW to reinforce that! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:19:52 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manjit Sahai Subject: Compilation of Journal Indexes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi everyone, In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason that I do not use CINDEX. Both were related to indexing medical journals. This is an area where I want to break in. Both of these publishers told me that if and whenever I start using CINDEX, then I should notify them and they will start giving me work in journal indexing. They also told me that their cumulative indexes are compiled in CINDEX. As a matter of fact, I do index medical books for *one of these clients*. Having CINDEX is not necessary for creating book index for this client, but having CINDEX is *must* for journal indexes acc. to journal editor. Needless to say, I am very upset just because I use SKY, not CINDEX. So I have few questions to ask from those indexers who do journal indexing. 1....when the journal index is created, do you send it as RTF file or WORD DOC file or use some other kind of file format? 2....are journal indexes compiled by the indexer or by the publisher? 3...what can CINDEX do (from publisher's point of view)that SKY does not do? 4...I send WORD DOC file to all of my clients for their indexes. None of my current clients has ever asked which indexing software I use. So why journal indexing editors are hung up on CINDEX? 5...is there any indexer on Index-L who does journal indexing with SKY software? 6...is CINDEX must if an indexer wants to get into journal indexing? Personally, I am *extremely happy* with SKY software and I create all indexes with SKY. I never realized that software issue would become a big problem for me for getting into journal indexing. Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. MANJIT K. SAHAI ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:51:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Subject: Re: Marketing through phone calls MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I was the 205 minutes person I would like to reply, > Barbara Cohen wrote: > > By the way, how many calls were included in the 205 total? 110 calls were made in 205 minutes. Of the 110 calls, I sent 44 letters as follow up, got one project and one lead (which hasn't led anywhere yet). > If that represents 20 calls and you managed to get one editor to talk to you about an > actual project, I'd say that way pretty good odds, or better than I would expect > through cold calling. (Assuming that your list of calls wasn't pre-selected > to favor editors someone had told you were looking for indexers at the > moment.) I did get one project and my list wasn't pre-selected to favor anyone but myself. I marked the Writer's Market with highlighter to indicate which publishers I might have a chance with and then started phoning. I try to phone one letter of the alphabet at a time. So far I am at letter "P". > > Did you precede these calls with a letter? Did these editors have any > information about you before the phone rang? If the only marketing you are > doing is through cold calling, you can spend a lot of money with few results, > in my opinion. I don't send materials first as I wouldn't have a clue who to send them to. I understood from everything I read here about marketing that would be a veeeeeeeerrrrrry bad choice. > > I prefer to send a visual cue (such as a letter saying you will be calling or > a brochure with a cover letter), because the editor can read it at his/her > leisure (less intrusive than a phone call) and you can reflect your working > skills better in a printed document than over the phone. (Or at least I can.) But who would you send it to? Just as Jean and Susan wrote below. > Jean Middleton wrote: > As a new indexer just beginning to market, I am wondering how you know to whom to > address the letter/brochure if you do not call first to find out (1) whether they > hire freelance indexers and (2) to whom to address your materials. I would much prefer > not making cold calls since I agree with Barbara that I hate > telemarketers. Some seem to be having good results by cold calling, however. > Susan Hernandez wrote: > I say "I am calling to ask if you hire freelance indexers." > If the answer is yes, I tell them what I index, (after already done the > research to know that's what they publish), and ask to send my resume and > samples. I then repeat my name, and tell them they will receive my > letter in a few days. > As in many things in indexing, marketing techniques vary by person, > and if you're doing something that works for you, than there isn't any > reason to change. But I expect to market the same way for all the years > I am indexing - even when I have hundreds of books indexed, I will still > call before I mail anything. Cynthia Landeen In.dex.trous On behalf of the reader-with the voice of the author 541.345.3079 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 22:13:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "larry e. edmonson" Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Manjit Sahai wrote: > In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason that I do > not use CINDEX....So why journal indexing editors are hung up on CINDEX?... > Personally, I am *extremely happy* with SKY software and I create all > indexes with SKY. I never realized that software issue would become a big > problem for me for getting into journal indexing. Software preferences are something we all have. But isn't it more important to serve our clients than to impose our preferences on them? I have the same preference issues regarding MS WORD and WORD PERFECT. I've found the easiest way around the problem is to use the software I prefer and then convert the data to the publisher's preferred brand before sending it off. Seems like the same approach would work for SKY and CINDEX. Larry Edmonson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:22:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: S Sweeney Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Manjit--This is not in reference to journal indexing, but I simply tell editors I can deliver a Cindex file although I use SKY. They are satisfied with that answer and happy with the results. Just be sure you export as Cindex and rename the .txt file to .dat (think I have that straight--check with the experts!). I've sent these files as e-mail attachments and not had a single complaint. In fact, one editor said he had never imported anything so easily!(?) Why would journals be different if you are giving them exactly the same file they would get if generated by Cindex? Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@ruraltel.net Manjit Sahai wrote: > Hi everyone, > > In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason that I do > not use CINDEX. Both were related to indexing medical journals. This is an > area where I want to break in. > > Both of these publishers told me that if and whenever I start using CINDEX, > then I should notify them and they will start giving me work in journal > indexing. They also told me that their cumulative indexes are compiled in > CINDEX. As a matter of fact, I do index medical books for *one of these > clients*. Having CINDEX is not necessary for creating book index for this > client, but having CINDEX is *must* for journal indexes acc. to journal > editor. Needless to say, I am very upset just because I use SKY, not CINDEX. > So I have few questions to ask from those indexers who do journal indexing. > > 1....when the journal index is created, do you send it as RTF file or WORD > DOC file or use some other kind of file format? > > 2....are journal indexes compiled by the indexer or by the publisher? > > 3...what can CINDEX do (from publisher's point of view)that SKY does not do? > > 4...I send WORD DOC file to all of my clients for their indexes. None of my > current clients has ever asked which indexing software I use. So why journal > indexing editors are hung up on CINDEX? > > 5...is there any indexer on Index-L who does journal indexing with SKY > software? > > 6...is CINDEX must if an indexer wants to get into journal indexing? > > Personally, I am *extremely happy* with SKY software and I create all > indexes with SKY. I never realized that software issue would become a big > problem for me for getting into journal indexing. > > Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance. > > MANJIT K. SAHAI > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:26:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Wyatt Organization: Keyword Editorial Services Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Manjit: You said: > In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason that I do > not use CINDEX. Both were related to indexing medical journals. This is an > area where I want to break in. > > Both of these publishers told me that if and whenever I start using CINDEX, > then I should notify them and they will start giving me work in journal > indexing. They also told me that their cumulative indexes are compiled in > CINDEX. As a matter of fact, I do index medical books for *one of these > clients*. Having CINDEX is not necessary for creating book index for this > client, but having CINDEX is *must* for journal indexes acc. to journal > editor. Needless to say, I am very upset just because I use SKY, not CINDEX. > So I have few questions to ask from those indexers who do journal indexing. > 5...is there any indexer on Index-L who does journal indexing with SKY > software? I can only answer Question 5. I use both Cindex and SKY Index, because they have different areas of excellence. I create all of my journal indexes in SKY Index, because for me it is a faster tool and handles complex citations better. If every edition of the index has to mesh with earlier indexes, you will probably need an authority list: creating a printed authority list in Cindex is easy, though creating a machine-readable authority file is equally cumbersome in both programs; on the other hand you can set SKY Index to "beep" if you use a term not in the authority list which (I think) is not possible in Cindex. As a member of the SKYIndexUsers list you will have seen my posting on providing .DAT files from SKY Index for use in Cindex, but for those who haven't see it, I'll repeat it: A list member has asked me about advertisements for indexers that specify Cindex users only. I can imagine such a qualification being important only if you are required to work in-house, or as part of a team project with other Cindex users. Even so, SKY Index imports and exports Cindex data files flawlessly. [One list member reported a problem, but I have never experienced it.] However, data files do not carry formatting information. If you receive a Cindex .DAT file, you must set up the formatting yourself (unless you are going to re-export a .DAT file, in which case it's irrelevant). If you send a Cindex .DAT file to a Cindex user, they will have to set up the formatting in Cindex. The only other thing to watch for is names beginning with Mc: whereas SKY Index can handle these automatically, in Cindex each must be manually coded individually. Importing a Cindex .DAT file is straightforward [and here I described how to do it.] When you are exporting a .DAT for Cindex [and here I described how to export .DAT files]. You can read the whole posting at http://www.onelist.com/archive/SKYIndexUsers for 9 September. Michael Wyatt Keyword Editorial Services 22 Kendall Street, Surry Hills 2010 Australia Phone 0500 539 973 Fax (02) 9331 7785 keyword@ozemail.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 19:31:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Indextrous Subject: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As I am the 205 minutes person, who made 110 calls and sent 44 letters I became very curious just how much it had cost me to do this. Admittedly I have very nice stationary and perhaps it was a bit spendy, but it gave me some extra confidence when I started mailing. If I don't include the cost of the graphic designer.... 44 letters (letter, envelope, business card, index example) cost about $40.00. 110 letters would have cost about $100.00. The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak daytime, unfortunately). The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost $35.00 (a find at Powell's Books). So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sent letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I am at my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which makes me believe I can make the next call. It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won't pay for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person, or the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortunate that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing and I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. In.dex.trous On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. 541.345.3079 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 23:22:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been following this thread with some interest. For one thing, Cynthia, you've landed one job and that's more important than anything. Next, you need to let time work for you before assessing the success of your efforts. One important component that I have done, and I believe was touched on by Barbara, is to re-contact your prospective clients. Make that third contact. You got the name, you spoke briefly with them, you sent them your information. Now seal the deal with a follow-up call. Find out if they got your information, if they looked it over, if they have anything on their desk right now that you could help them out with. Being glib and easy to talk to always helps, but if necessary, make a list of small talk topics. We all know that editors are busy and we don't want to bother them (that will certainly work against you), but you need to give them something to latch onto besides your technical information. Sales are made by making a connection, selling yourself (not your indexing ability--which they can see is untested at this stage). I can't stress this enough. Differentiate yourself from the crowd. Talk about a book they published that you've read. Or talk about a book they're going to publish that you want to index. "I saw on your fall list at your website and was wondering if you'd assigned an indexer yet. I'd really like to have a shot at it, since I'm a world-renowned authority on the subject (or whatever)." Go for it. As an aside, I'd also like to support the idea that telephone marketing to someone's business (offering a service that will help them) is not telemarketing in the sense that we all know and hate. You're calling to bring a business service to the attention of a businessman to make their job easier. This is not a private residence. I personally think that it should be against the law to make an unsolicited phone call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm wacked--so I won't get into it here. Best/Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Indextrous <bookindexer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Marketing by Phone > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sent > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which makes me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won't pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person, or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortunate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 21:00:03 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Macrex, which I have used and loved for many years, can also export CINDEX files quite nicely. I've worked with both editors and on team projects which required CINDEX files and had no problems whatsoever using Macrex to generate the files. I realize that the original question was about Sky but it never hurts to know about as many software programs as possible. Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:35:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to beat a dead horse any further, but to clarify my comment about being "ahead financially" by making phone calls over attending conferences: The cost of a conference (registration, transportation, meals, lodging) could easily be $500-1,000 (if not more), so cold calls are cheaper for marketing. But I still contend that for my purposes, conferences offer more immediate rewards, dollar per dollar. This is clearly a case of finding different ways to skin the proverbial cat. . . And each indexer must find his or her own way to make contact. In general, indexers tend to be reluctant to get out and press the flesh. (Someone once ventured the opinion that we are freelancers precisely because we prefer to be alone.) Perhaps that is why I do well at conferences. Editors are surprised to meet a "real live indexer" and are usually eager for information. Someone usually has a job pending and didn't know who to ask for help. And there are generally few other indexers in attendance trying to get the editors' attention. Much easier to stand out in that kind of crowd, and to make an impression on the first try. In 15 years in business, I have never made a cold call. You ask "where do you find out who to send the letter to?" I find out at conferences. I usually come home with a stack of business cards for follow-up contacts. In my experience, the percentage of people who are actually looking for indexers is higher at conferences than I think I could determine by reading the LMP or any other listing of presses. (Frankly, why anyone would decide to become an indexer if they didn't know anyone who would hire them has remained a mystery to me, but that is a topic for another time. I started my business because I had clients. Until you have your first client actually paying you for an index, you are still just a possible indexer. I guess from my own perspective, I wouldn't have imagined becoming an indexer except that someone paid me for my first index and THEN I thought of myself as an indexer. Perhaps in future I will suggest to wannabe indexers that they find a client first, get trained later. Maybe that would overcome the problem of trained indexers left wandering the continent in search of potential clients. Perhaps you shouldn't get your USDA certificate until you've landed a client?!) Anyway, back to the topic at hand: Please keep in mind that no one here is saying that this is the way YOU (and of the 800 yous out there on Index-L) should do things. I'm just trying to say that this is what I have done. But, to reiterate again, I think what Susan has done has worked for her. Although I thought from the tone of her posting that she was complaining about not having had good results. I was trying to make the point that I thought she had had good results based on my interpretation of what she had accomplished from those calls. 205 minutes of phone calls per job discussion still seems like a good ratio to me, even if it translates into $250 (or whatever the total is) per job prospect. Marketing is expensive, it never stops, and there's no one route to pursue. You do everything you can think of, in as many directions as possible, and one day you find you are too busy to keep making cold calls. Until the next crisis, when some major contact retires and you find yourself with a gap, and you are back pounding the pavement looking for new contacts. That is a constant. Because there is no one place to advertise yourself, even if you pay for an ad in Publisher's Weekly or the LMP, you have to get creative about where you position yourself so your clients can find you at some point. That's at least one measure of success: that new clients come calling you and not vice versa. Keep at it. It does happen! As I once told someone who was losing heart in the struggle to find work, if you can't keep at it from now until forever, you maybe should find a job indexing in-house. It's a lot easier on your nerves if you aren't cut out to keep marketing yourself. This isn't meant to be disrespectful to people who aren't good at self-promotion. It's a fact of life that we all have different capabilities. You have to work with your strengths and minimize your weaknesses--all the more so when you are everything in the company from the janitor to the marketing manager. I don't have a problem with the continual marketing. In fact, I don't even see it as a problem, since I enjoy getting out and going to conferences and networking. But if it is a problem for someone, they should consider ways to avoid it, like working contractually or in-house for a single client. For that person, that situation might be a better solution than feeling frustrated about continual marketing hassles. In this world, "yous makes your choices, yous takes your chances." (in the immortal words of who?) In indexing, marketing to and finding potential clients is an expensive and time-consuming task. This doesn't make anyone happy, but it does seem to be a fact of life. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 01:40:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Can I sign that petition to introduce a bill to banish telemarketing to private residences? OK, so I overstated the point about cold calls as compared to telemarketing. But, in my opinion, they are still an intrusion in the work day. No editor would want to be flooded with calls from potential freelancers. That's one reason why meeting potential clients at conferences works so well. You aren't interrupting their work day when you are making contact. You are networking at a time set aside for such things. Just my 2 cents. (And end of my rant about marketing methods for the moment, I swear.) Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:16:42 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Blee811@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, I may have missed a post, but I read your posting about attending conferences to make contacts with editors with great interest. Can you suggest what kinds of conferences you go to that include editors? Bill Lee Cincinnati, OH ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:21:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: John and Kara Pekar <jkpekar@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia wrote: > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). Cynthia and others doing phone marketing or research calls should make sure they investigate the various long-distance plans available. I don't pay peak long-distance; I'm on one of those plans where I can get all my long distance for 10 cents a minute (actually, I think they recently dropped it to 7 cents, so I have to make sure that's what I'm getting.) I pay a little extra a month to get that plan, but since it covers both my home and business phone on a single plan, and I also have a long-distance mentor, the plan works out to considerably less than I would pay otherwise. And the cost of the plan is deductible, since I wouldn't necessarily need it for my personal calls, but certainly do for my business calls. If you spent 205 minutes on the phone, and you paid $80 for that time, you paid about 39 cents per minute. On a calling plan such as I am on, you would have paid $20.50 for the calling time plus between $5 and $7 for the plan, saving over $50. (I'm not trying to make you feel bad, Cynthia, just save you some money!) Please, if you haven't checked out long-distance plans yet, check them out. And don't assume your long-distance provider automatically puts you on the most beneficial plan; they don't. You have to ask for it. Even if they advertise new rates for the specific plan you are on, you will have to ask the company to give you the newer rate. And incidentally, long-distance companies will often waive the "switching" fee if another company is also waiving it -- but again, you have to ask. Phone companies are one business in which it pays to be a very informed (and gently assertive) customer. Good luck! Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:59:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill, I tend to do scholarly and reference works, so I go to a lot of scholarly conferences in subject areas of interest to me. Also, I have attended Midwestern Presses and Southern Presses conferences, two regional conferences of AAUP. I have also attended the AAUP national conferences. I try to keep an eye out for any major conferences within driving distance also. There are also major conferences of for trade publishers, journals editors, and so forth. You have to ask your editors where they go! Best of luck, Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:15:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Cynthia, You are the second person to mention a $35 LMP! Please tell me what this LMP consists of, as I just purchased the 1999 2 vol. set at half price for $189, the Year 2000 set coming out in Oct is $289. Is yours the 2 vol. set? Is it 1999? If so, please send me the bookstore's phone number where you purchased it, ok? Thanks so much for any assistance. Ardith 8-) abbaindx@crosslink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Indextrous <bookindexer@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Sunday, September 19, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Marketing by Phone > As I am the 205 minutes person, who made 110 calls and sent 44 letters I > became very curious just how much it had cost me to do this. Admittedly I > have very nice stationary and perhaps it was a bit spendy, but it gave me > some extra confidence when I started mailing. If I don't include the cost > of the graphic designer.... > 44 letters (letter, envelope, business card, index example) cost about > $40.00. > 110 letters would have cost about $100.00. > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). > The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost $35.00 > (a find at Powell's Books). > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sent > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which makes me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won't pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person, or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortunate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:16:37 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Suellen G Kasoff <lserve@JUNO.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes It seems to me that if I could get 2 jos with CINDEX, I would certainly buy it and switch. Suellen On Sun, 19 Sep 1999 18:19:52 PDT Manjit Sahai <ramindexing@HOTMAIL.COM> writes: >Hi everyone, > >In the last 3 weeks I lost 2 prospective clients due to the reason >that I do >not use CINDEX. Both were related to indexing medical journals. This >is an >area where I want to break in. > >Both of these publishers told me that if and whenever I start using >CINDEX, >then I should notify them and they will start giving me work in >journal >indexing. They also told me that their cumulative indexes are compiled >in >CINDEX. As a matter of fact, I do index medical books for *one of >these >clients*. Having CINDEX is not necessary for creating book index for >this >client, but having CINDEX is *must* for journal indexes acc. to >journal >editor. Needless to say, I am very upset just because I use SKY, not >CINDEX. >So I have few questions to ask from those indexers who do journal >indexing. > >1....when the journal index is created, do you send it as RTF file or >WORD >DOC file or use some other kind of file format? > >2....are journal indexes compiled by the indexer or by the publisher? > >3...what can CINDEX do (from publisher's point of view)that SKY does >not do? > >4...I send WORD DOC file to all of my clients for their indexes. None >of my >current clients has ever asked which indexing software I use. So why >journal >indexing editors are hung up on CINDEX? > >5...is there any indexer on Index-L who does journal indexing with SKY >software? > >6...is CINDEX must if an indexer wants to get into journal indexing? > >Personally, I am *extremely happy* with SKY software and I create all >indexes with SKY. I never realized that software issue would become a >big >problem for me for getting into journal indexing. > >Any helpful suggestions would be appreciated. > >Thanks in advance. > >MANJIT K. SAHAI > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:09:38 -0700 Reply-To: Homer Ellison <info@advmediasol.com> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Homer Ellison <info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I found Powell's Books (where Cynthia bought her LMP) at www.powells.com, but an online search for LMP turned up nothing for me. Maybe you'll have better luck? Regards, Homer >Dear Cynthia, > >You are the second person to mention a $35 LMP! Please tell me what this >LMP consists of, as I just purchased the 1999 2 vol. set at half price for >$189, the Year 2000 set coming out in Oct is $289. > >Is yours the 2 vol. set? Is it 1999? If so, please send me the bookstore's >phone number where you purchased it, ok? > >Thanks so much for any assistance. > >Ardith 8-) >abbaindx@crosslink.net > >> The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost >$35.00 >> (a find at Powell's Books). >><snip> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" <skysoft@EROLS.COM> Subject: Re: Compilation of Journal Indexes In-Reply-To: <19990920011953.94534.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Manjit, As you've already learned from other responses on this list, SKY Index can both import and export Cindex .DAT files. If that is not sufficient for your client, the solution is easy... Simply buy Cindex and use SKY Index for your data entry and editing. Then, prior to sending the file to your client, export it as a DAT file and then import it into Cindex. Although it is a rather large expense, if you believe it will bring you follow-on work, then you'll get your money back in the long run and you'll still be able to use the advanced features of SKY Index to get your index done quickly. Sincerely, Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472 Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:36:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Homer and all. I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? Just my thoughts. Karen Field Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer -----Original Message----- From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: FrameMaker conversion I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:32:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Karen, I am in the process of changing from WP to WORD, very expensive! Is Framemaker a word processing program? (I am so ignorant!) If so, do you use SKY? Kamm says SKY works better with WORD than with WP. Over, Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion > Hi Homer and all. > > I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any > time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like > index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to > Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. > > Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't > want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. > IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. > When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling > out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. > > Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? > > Just my thoughts. > > Karen Field > Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer > -----Original Message----- > From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: FrameMaker conversion > > > I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a > FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to > convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once > the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:49:50 -0700 Reply-To: jeanmidd@prodigy.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Jean Middleton <jeanmidd@PRODIGY.NET> Subject: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested in purchasing an out-of-print copy of LMP 1998, I have a suggestion. The ISBN number is 0835239284. Go to isbn.nu and search for this ISBN number. If you do not find a price you like, ask to be notified when the price changes. That is what I have done. At this time Amazon sells it retail for $189 and Powells has it at $150. Since the new edition is coming out soon, I think I'll just wait to see if the price goes down. I don't know where that $35 edition came from, but I would like to find it. Jean Middleton http://www.indexempire.com IndexEmpire Indexing Services Riverside, CA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:00:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ardith and all, FrameMaker is a desktop publishing program, and Word is a Word processing program (think huge books with lots of graphics vs. one-two page letters, etc.). (Please don't flame me if you Word as a DTP tool and like it. I hate using Word for what I do with a passion; that's just how I feel from experience.) Tech writers use Frame because it can handle large docs and incorporate the DTP needs of such docs, which Word cannot. The only reason I believe a full-time indexer needs Frame would be if a lot of his/her clients have docs in Frame for which they need embedded indexing. Obviously from Homer's questions about Frame, that happens, at least occasionally. Hope that helps. Karen -----Original Message----- From: Ardith Ayotte, R.T. [mailto:abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET] Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 10:32 AM To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion Dear Karen, I am in the process of changing from WP to WORD, very expensive! Is Framemaker a word processing program? (I am so ignorant!) If so, do you use SKY? Kamm says SKY works better with WORD than with WP. Over, Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Field <kfield@STELLCOM.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 12:36 PM Subject: Re: FrameMaker conversion > Hi Homer and all. > > I use FrameMaker daily (I'm also a tech writer) and from what I know, any > time you convert a file from it's original format, any special marks like > index marks are lost. In other words, you could convert the Frame file to > Word, but when you convert it back your index marks will be lost. > > Also, having used both Word and Frame, if I were your client, I wouldn't > want you to convert the file to Word if I were planning on using it again. > IMHO, FrameMaker is God and Word is Satan when it comes to formatting, etc. > When I've tried to convert a doc to Frame from Word, I've ended up pulling > out all of Word's wierd formatting one tiny thread at a time. > > Would it be worth it to purchase Frame for your indexing business? > > Just my thoughts. > > Karen Field > Technical Writer, Editor, and Indexer > -----Original Message----- > From: Homer Ellison [mailto:info@ADVMEDIASOL.COM] > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 1999 6:25 PM > To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU > Subject: FrameMaker conversion > > > I wonder if anyone can offer a suggestion. I need to create an index for a > FrameMaker file, but I do not have FrameMaker software. Is there a way to > convert FM files into files that are compatible with MS Word, and then once > the index is created with Word, convert the file back into FrameMaker? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Regards, > Homer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:17:03 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you go to: <http://www.abebooks.com/cgi/abe.exe/routera^progname=inventoryKeys^phase=1^clientId=12702> (sorry for the long url--I have my bookmark set to the search page, so you may have to copy/paste) input "Literary Market Place" and set to "all bookstores" There's a 1998 LMP for $49.95. Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: varney@mindspring.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: J Flenner <varney@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: P.S. Re: Literary Market Place MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a shorter URL for that search page I just sent: <http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=12702> Jackie F. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:48:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET> Subject: on-line legal references MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Index-L: In addition to the on-line legal references suggested on this list in response to my recent query (many thanks), I also discovered Oran's dictionary of the Law at site below and thought I would pass it on. http://www.lawoffice.com/pathfind/orans/orans.asp Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@ruraltel.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:23:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Cynthia <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, You're such an inspiration to the beginners. I still remember your plan of calling to say you had a space in your schedule (which I'm going to use soon) and because I thought it was so clever it always makes me brave. And on that second point, don't worry, wacked or not I agree. > Dan Connolly wrote: Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > <snip> re-contact your prospective clients. Make that third contact. You got the name, > you spoke briefly with them, you sent them your information. Now seal the deal with a > follow-up call. > <snip>I personally think that it should be against the law to make an unsolicited phone > call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm wacked--so I > won't get into it here. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM Subject: Legal References Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" There are several links to good internet legal references on the ASI web site: http://www.asindexing.org/refbooks.shtml#legal Regards, Larry Harrison Co-Webmaster American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:22:17 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= <jingting@MAGMA.CA> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone In-Reply-To: <000901bf0310$4c67e2e0$27dc0e3f@att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With regard to marketing--tele-m. or otherwise, Harvey Mackay says it best: It's not who you know, or what you know; it's what you know =3D> about <=3D who you know.* Cordially, Yves Jeaurond jingting@magma.ca * Mackay, Harvey, "How to Build a Network of Power Relationships", Simon = & Schuster Audio, 1995 ---------- > As I am the 205 minutes person, who made 110 calls and sent 44 letters = I > became very curious just how much it had cost me to do this. Admitted= ly I > have very nice stationary and perhaps it was a bit spendy, but it gave = me > some extra confidence when I started mailing. If I don't include the = cost > of the graphic designer.... > 44 letters (letter, envelope, business card, index example) cost about > $40.00. > 110 letters would have cost about $100.00. > The long distance portion of the phone bill was about $80.00 (all peak > daytime, unfortunately). > The Writer's Market cost about $25.00 and my new edition of LMP cost = $35.00 > (a find at Powell's Books). > > So where am I ahead? The advantage I see is that I spoke with, and sen= t > letters to, a real, named person. As I wait to make my calls until I = am at > my highest and happiest energy, hopefully they will remember me in a > positive light. And mostly my calls are taken by nice people which mak= es me > believe I can make the next call. > > It's challenging to be new and to earn your stripes. My first job won'= t pay > for the cost of the printer alone to say nothing of the graphics person= , or > the indexing software. But I'm not discouraged (and I feel quite fortun= ate > that I was able to do this without a regular day job). I love indexing= and > I've waited a long time to find work that I look forward to each day. > Cynthia Landeen, Ph.D. > In.dex.trous > On behalf of the reader, with the voice of the author. > 541.345.3079 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:11:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: S Sweeney <ssweeney@RURALTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Legal References MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies to Larry and ASI for suggesting this really great legal reference site (Oran's Dictionary of the Law) when it's been there on the ASI "webshelf" all the time. Blushingly, Sharon Sweeney ssweeney@ruraltel.net larryNOSPAMh123@HOME.COM wrote: > There are several links to good internet legal references on the ASI web site: > > http://www.asindexing.org/refbooks.shtml#legal > > Regards, > Larry Harrison > Co-Webmaster > American Society of Indexers http://www.asindexing.org/ > and Secretary/Treasurer, Twin Cities Chapter > [please remove NOSPAM to email me directly] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:21:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: MaryMort@AOL.COM Subject: ASI Kansas-Missouri Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AMERICAN SOCIETY OF INDEXERS Kansas-Missouri Group FALL MEETING Saturday, October 23, 1999 Spencer Art Reference Library, Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art 4525 Oak St., Kansas City, Missouri 9:30 - 10:00 am - informal networking and coffee 10:00 am - 12:00 noon - formal meeting noon - lunch TOPICS Periodical Indexing Hear from two indexers who are working on long-term periodical indexing projects: Jane Zander, Senior Cataloger at the Spencer Library, who is indexing the Nelson-Atkins Museum of Art Bulletin, and Sharon Sweeney, a freelance indexer who works on the Harper's Magazine index. If you have experience indexing other periodicals, please come and share it, or if you don't, come and learn more about periodical indexing. Annual conference A review of the Indianapolis conference in June. Following the meeting, please join us for lunch at the museum's Rozelle Court restaurant. Food service is cafeteria-style and we will pay for lunch individually. You may want to spend the afternoon exploring the museum (admission is free on Saturdays!) or the nearby Country Club Plaza. Temporary exhibits at the Nelson will be "Echoes of Eternity: The Egyptian Mummy and the Afterlife" and "In the Absence of Color" (contemporary art). The permanent collections are also worth a visit if you haven't seen them. Additional information is available on the museum's Web site: www.nelson-atkins.org Directions to the Nelson-Atkins are given in great detail at www.nelson-atkins.org/information/map.htm If you do not have Web access or need more information, contact Mary Mortensen at 785-841-3631 or marymort@aol.com. Parking is on the north side of the museum and you can enter through the employee entrance on the west side (Oak Street.) Guests are welcome! Please let us know if you are coming by Oct. 20, so we can make sure we have enough chairs for the meeting and for lunch. Either call 785-841-3631, email marymort@aol.com, or return the registration form below to: Mary Mortensen, 2127 Rhode Island St., Lawrence, KS 66046. =============================================== ___ persons will attend the October 23, 1999, meeting ___ persons will eat lunch with the group Name(s) ___________________________________________________________ Telephone _____________________ Email ________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, Where can one obtain the conference schedules for these organizations? Do any of them have web sites? Also, do you need to be a member, or do the conferences allow non-members, perhaps with a higher registration fee? I would go to something within driving distance *if* I knew about it. ;-) Asking editors where they go only works after you have "met" some editors, which won't be much help for those trying to get started . Speaking for myself, I would rather do my marketing face to face than on the telephone whenever possible. Thanks for suggesting an alternative to the telephone route. Ann Truesdale Barbara wrote: > > I tend to do scholarly and reference works, so I go to a lot of scholarly > conferences in subject areas of interest to me. Also, I have attended > Midwestern Presses and Southern Presses conferences, two regional conferences > of AAUP. I have also attended the AAUP national conferences. > > I try to keep an eye out for any major conferences within driving distance > also. > > There are also major conferences of for trade publishers, journals editors, > and so forth. You have to ask your editors where they go! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:39:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cynthia, Thanks for the kind words. Best of luck. Determination will see you through./Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: Cynthia <busterlandeen@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > Dan, You're such an inspiration to the beginners. I still remember your > plan of calling to say you had a space in your schedule (which I'm going to > use soon) and because I thought it was so clever it always makes me brave. > And on that second point, don't worry, wacked or not I agree. > > Dan Connolly wrote: Subject: Re: Marketing by Phone > > <snip> re-contact your prospective clients. Make that third contact. You > got the name, > > you spoke briefly with them, you sent them your information. Now seal the > deal with a > > follow-up call. > > <snip>I personally think that it should be against the law to make an > unsolicited phone > > call to someone's private residence--but I don't want you all to think I'm > wacked--so I > > won't get into it here. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Dan Connolly <connolly@NECA.COM> Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, You're right about the flooding. I just never consider myself to be part of the rising tide (personally, I think I'm more like a rogue wave). I concede your points on the conferences and will be looking in my area./Dan ================================ Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ================================ ----- Original Message ----- From: <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Monday, September 20, 1999 1:40 AM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition > Hi Dan, > > Can I sign that petition to introduce a bill to banish telemarketing to > private residences? > > OK, so I overstated the point about cold calls as compared to telemarketing. > But, in my opinion, they are still an intrusion in the work day. No editor > would want to be flooded with calls from potential freelancers. > > That's one reason why meeting potential clients at conferences works so well. > You aren't interrupting their work day when you are making contact. You are > networking at a time set aside for such things. > > Just my 2 cents. (And end of my rant about marketing methods for the moment, > I swear.) > > Barbara > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:18:32 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ann, Virtually every group I know about does maintain a Web site. Also, I am a member of 10 professional organizations at the moment, so I get lots of newsletters with calendars of upcoming meetings. I always having reading material to catch up on! One of the most thorough calendars is in the American Anthropological Association newsletter. Society for Scholarly Publishing also tries to keep up. Garden Writers Association of American has a lot of regional things too, and their membership directory is a treasure for marketing. The Organization of American Historians has a good, informative newsletter. There is an organization for anything and everything under the sun, once you start to look around. Just for the record, I also belong to Sigma Xi, College Art Association, American Association for State and Local History, Society for Technical Communication, Women in Scholarly Publishing, and the Women's National Book Association. I have also belonged to the Society for American Archaeology and regional archaeology groups, the Society for Scholarly Publishing, and some others I can't recall at the moment. As far as I know, all of these except Sigma Xi are open to anyone. (For Sigma Xi, you have to be nominated in, as it is a science honor society--I got in when I was a Ph.D student and have kept up my membership because I love the journal, American Scientist, even though I've never been to one of their conferences and don't do much work in the hard sciences.) (And this doesn't even include my "hobby" memberships. Is it any wonder I have to work to pay all these dues?! I try not to think about the expense, because I like the organizations. And also, I've been in business for 15 years and have added most of the in the last 5-6. Clearly, a new indexer doesn't need so many. But I have always maintained the anthropology ones, so ASI and KeyWords have never been my only source of information. I never saw the ASI as an organization to get business; for me it has been an organization to meet other indexers and gain professional skills.) As a former academic, I still maintain ties to professional organizations in my subject areas (being an anthropologist, there's plenty of overlap and lots of reasons to belong to more than one organization). And yes, before you ask, I do pay a considerable amount in dues every year, as you can see. But I opt for the cheapest rates whenever I can. For example, for AAA I am down to a newsletter subscription only, at the moment. So there are ways to keep the costs down, if you take the time to sort out your priorities. As to Web sites: I have bookmarked a number of major organizations with good conferences and try to scan the Web sites a few times a year. Since I generally sketch out my travel plans 6 months to a year ahead, I try to think about travel from one ASI conference to the next, more or less. As for attending these conferences, I have never been turned away from any conference I've ever tried to attend, no matter how small or exclusive. Even AAUP, which has a history of treating freelancers as outsiders (because of its institutional orientation), lets anyone attend, not just employees of member presses. WiSP is a good source for freelancers for information about that group and it's national and regional conferences. And you don't have to be a woman to belong. You just have to be an advocate of women's issues. (Important aside: WiSP also provides professional development grants for members, which as far as I know is the only group that provides travel funds for freelancers. I know that quite a few indexers have taken advantage of this benefit for becoming members of WiSP over the years. Dues is $20 or $30 a year, based on income levels.) What I usually say is this: if you use your creativity about it, you'll find way more places than you can afford to attend, or pay dues to, or keep up with. For a few years, I rotated memberships between some organizations I wasn't sure about. Then I settled down into the ones I have at the moment. But this is always subject to change. I guess this answer got long, but what I would say to sum up is this: there is a clear reason my business took off quickly and has stayed strong (touch wood). I have marketed myself aggressively, made use of the resources I knew about from my former profession(s), and keep up my academic credentials. What anyone else does, I have no idea. How you can "break into" a field you don't know much about and have no contacts in, I don't know about and no advice to offer. My business grew as a natural progression out of my former contacts. What I usually suggest to new indexers is that they take the same approach or work in-house for a while to get those kinds of contacts. Otherwise, I do tend to think the walls would look too high for me to scale. But then again, I'm a little on the lazy side. I don't believe in beating my head against a wall, when I can see there's a door somewhere. I'd rather spend time searching for the door than using my head as a battering ram. Sure sign of an academic frame of mind! :) Hope this helps someone out there in Indexing Inter-space! Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:20:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dan's Telemarketing Petition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, I'll concede your rogue wave and raise you one rip tide. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:37:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Robert Brod <asi-wisc@EXECPC.COM> Subject: ASI-Wisconsin chapter Fall Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" American Society of Indexers, Wisconsin Chapter Fall Conference 1999 Featured Speaker: Maria Coughlin "Editing the Index: Basic Principles, and Specific Applications to Medical and Scientific Indexes" Saturday, October 23 8:30 a.m. - 1:30 pm Lake Lawn Resort 2400 East Geneva St. Delavan, WI 53115 262-728-7950 www.lakelawnresort.com This participatory workshop focuses on the basic principles of editing an index and includes an editing "practicum," an opportunity for participants to edit an actual index draft. This practice session will be followed by discussion of the nitty gritty of medical and scientific editing conundrums, which are applicable to a broad range of indexing projects. Participants are encouraged to bring examples of editing problems, so that the group can benefit from tackling them. Following the workshop, we will break into groups for roundtable discussions during lunch. The roundtable topics and facilitators are as follows (please indicate your preference on the form below): Kay Wosewick: writing resumes Barbara Littlewood: getting work Sally Albertz and Edith Ericson: indexing genealogy Carol Roberts: negotiating with clients Conference Schedule: 8:30 to 9:00 am: Check-in 9:00: Maria Couglin, "Editing the Index: Basic Principles and Specific Applications" 12:00: Lunch and roundtable discussions The morning session will include refreshments and a short break. Lunch is a Southwestern buffet, including both meat and vegetarian dishes. Maria Coughlin has been indexing for more than 15 years. Her subject specialties are medicine (clinical practice books, textbooks, manuals, etc.), biology, and physiology. She currently has an indexing business that employs seven associate indexers. She has served ASI locally and nationally in various capacities for a total of 5 person-years, and looks forward to meeting both indexers and editors at her workshop. REGISTRATION: Postmarked by 10/9/99: $45 for ASI members; $50 for non-members Postmarked after 10/9/99: $55 for ASI members; $60 for non-members No registrations can be accepted after 10/19/99. Space is limited. Name: __________________ Address:________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Daytime phone:____________________________ E-mail:___________________________________ Roundtable preference: 1st choice:________________________________ 2nd choice:________________________________ 3rd choice:________________________________ Please return check (payable to Wisconsin Chapter-ASI) and this form to Carol Roberts, 1908 E. Edgewood Ave., Shorewood, WI 53211. You may cancel your reservation up until Friday October 15, and receive a full refund. ACCOMODATIONS AND DIRECTIONS Lake Lawn Resort, on 275 lakeside acres, is a year-round destination and conference resort. Conference participants may want to stay for part of the weekend to enjoy the facilities, which include a pool, golf, miniature golf, tennis, softball, basketball, sand volleyball, video game room, trail rides, petting farm, fishing, boating, shopping, and massage therapy. To make your arrangements please contact Lake Lawn Resort at 262-728-7950. Directions: From Milwaukee: I-43 southwest to Highway 50. Hard left on Highway 50 (east) for 1 mile. From Madison: I-90 east to Janesville. Highway 14 S (turns into Highway 11) to Delavan. At first stop light in Delavan, turn right onto 7th St. Lake Lawn is approximately 2 more miles on your right, after the Geneva Lake. From O'Hare Airport: I-94 north to Highway 50 (Kenosha exit). Turn left (west) onto Highway 50. Lake Lawn is approximately 45 minutes from I-94 and 8 miles west of Lake Geneva Kennel Club. For more information, please contact Mary Brod, 262-784-0372, or rbrod@execpc.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:08:59 -0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Sylvia Coates <scoates@RCN.COM> Subject: Re: Breaking in with no contacts (was Marketing at Conferences) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: BECohen653@AOL.COM <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Date: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 12:33 AM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences How you can "break into" a field you don't >know much about and have no contacts in, I don't know about and no advice to >offer. It has been most interesting to hear about Barbara's marketing strategies. They have obviously been very effective. My own experience has been quite different. I'm afraid that I am one of those who entered the world of indexing without any contacts, no work experience, and no indexing experience. Oh, and dare I mention that I had never even turned on a computer. I've been indexing for over ten years now and have had no shortage of work since my first year (during which I indexed about 40 books). I graduated from college pregnant with my first child. By 24 years of age I had four sons and was very happy become a typical soccer mom (yes, I not only coached several championship teams but coordinated the referee program --80 games per weekend--for two years!). By the time our sons were teenagers I was tired of volunteer work and started to look around for something else. Indexing kept coming up during my research and I decided to take some classes including the USDA course (which I highly recommend). Before I had finished up the USDA course I got my first two indexes jobs through a fluke. My husband and oldest son purchased a dirt bike from a priest who was a Catholic Press publisher. My husband mentioned I was taking an indexing course and, surprise, two weeks later I was working for the press. It was great because I didn't have to pretend anything, they knew I was a beginner. I received my next ten jobs directly through referrals from the generous members of my local ASI chapter. It was only after indexing at least 10 or 12 books that I began to market myself. I've been pretty successful at retaining my clients and so have only had to market myself when I felt like expanding my client base. So why was I successful with such a sorry foundation? Well, first of all, I did my homework learning about indexing, computer equipment, and the business of indexing. Second, taking the USDA course and gathering as much information on the indexing process, was invaluable to me. Third, ASI chapter networking which was how I received most of my early editor contacts. Fourth, my volunteer experience was surprisingly good preparation for the marketing and business aspects of indexing. And last of all, but very important, since my husband was supporting us I didn't have any financial pressure to make a consistent income right away. What I'm saying is that it doesn't necessarily take publishing contacts and experience to break into indexing. Though, undeniably, contacts and experience would make the process much easier. What it does take is proper preparation and execution of your goals. Also, Barbara alluded to the deluge of marketing currently being directed toward editors. I don't believe that the mass marketing techniques, sending out hundreds of brochures or letters, is very effective. This is particular true if such marketing doesn't include references or stated experience. It's my understanding that many editors have been openly complaining about these mass mailings. I would never have marketed myself before getting some experience first. And, there are ways to get experience, through volunteer work, mentoring for other indexers, or good old-fashioned networking. And Dan also made an excellent point about standing out from the crowd. That's hard to do if you have no experience or some other unique quality to offer. I'm not criticizing anyone out there who has chosen another route, I'm just stating, as Barbara has, what I've been comfortable and successful in doing. As in so many things, there are many paths into an indexing career. I hope that my experience might be helpful to someone out there. Best, Sylvia Coates ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 00:36:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Sylvia, I think you illustrate my point perfectly. Each person has to find his or her own way into the profession. The "fluke" you mention happened because you were ready to take advantage of it. (See my KW article "Luck is Hard Work" for a more detailed explanation of why I think there is no such thing as dumb luck. And why your experience illustrates that point so well.) I especially like the point that you started working for someone who helped you to build a client base. Whether that is contractual, in a mentor or apprentice situation, or working for an editor willing to help you get started, the point is, it does help to have some kind of opportunity arise that you are prepared to take advantage of (prepared as in "chance favors the prepared mind"). Anyway, it is good to listen to what everyone else did, but successful indexers getting started now have to put all the pieces together in a way that takes into consideration their strengths and opportunities, as well as current publishing practices (which have changed a lot in the 15 years since I got started). No one else can predict where the break will come or when. We've all had it. None of us could have predicted it. Mine was in preparing an index for an author I had edited fairly regularly for 3 years. I thought the index would be fun to try, the book was short (and I had been involved in editing it), and the editor in question didn't care who did the index as long as it got done on time. The author was more than happy to let me "have at it." Hence my "fluke" opportunity. I don't mean to discourage anyone with my comments, but I do hope to discourage the false belief that there is some clear and straightforward path to becoming an indexer. Because I do feel that would be misleading. There is no one path. There is a path you find, and once you have constructed that pathway in, you find it consists of the support network you have built and will use for many years to come. Just one freelancer's opinion about why each of our businesses is unique and reflects our individual skills and expectations, Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:39:05 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer Comments: cc: Dwight Walker <dwight@wwwalker.com.au>, SKYIndexUsers@onelist.com, ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Barbara, SO BEAUTIFUL AND ENCOURAGING! THANK YOU! I did a mass marketing (only 90 mailings) last week. I am hoping for that "fluke" which I call "Providence" to open one or two more publishers to my services. I want so much to diversify from medical indexing, thus the marketing effort. I have read the many interesting opinions based on experience (in most cases) from my fellow indexers which has helped expand my own thinking regarding marketing. Of course, as Sylvia mentioned, referrals from fellow indexers is important. Also, ASI-L does publish those rare job requests to us from publishers and other indexers. These go like hotcakes! Thanks to all of you who take the time and energy to write to our discussion group. It is most helpful to newer indexers like myself. 8-) Ardith ----- Original Message ----- From: <BECohen653@AOL.COM> To: <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: Re: Making it as an indexer > Hi Sylvia, > > I think you illustrate my point perfectly. Each person has to find his or her > own way into the profession. The "fluke" you mention happened because you > were ready to take advantage of it. (See my KW article "Luck is Hard Work" > for a more detailed explanation of why I think there is no such thing as dumb > luck. And why your experience illustrates that point so well.) > > I especially like the point that you started working for someone who helped > you to build a client base. Whether that is contractual, in a mentor or > apprentice situation, or working for an editor willing to help you get > started, the point is, it does help to have some kind of opportunity arise > that you are prepared to take advantage of (prepared as in "chance favors the > prepared mind"). > > Anyway, it is good to listen to what everyone else did, but successful > indexers getting started now have to put all the pieces together in a way > that takes into consideration their strengths and opportunities, as well as > current publishing practices (which have changed a lot in the 15 years since > I got started). No one else can predict where the break will come or when. > We've all had it. None of us could have predicted it. > > Mine was in preparing an index for an author I had edited fairly regularly > for 3 years. I thought the index would be fun to try, the book was short (and > I had been involved in editing it), and the editor in question didn't care > who did the index as long as it got done on time. The author was more than > happy to let me "have at it." Hence my "fluke" opportunity. > > I don't mean to discourage anyone with my comments, but I do hope to > discourage the false belief that there is some clear and straightforward path > to becoming an indexer. Because I do feel that would be misleading. There is > no one path. There is a path you find, and once you have constructed that > pathway in, you find it consists of the support network you have built and > will use for many years to come. > > Just one freelancer's opinion about why each of our businesses is unique and > reflects our individual skills and expectations, > > Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 13:35:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: An Optimist! Comments: To: JACQUI519@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jacqui, Thank you for the response. Yes, I too "fear" too many = calls from 90 mailings, thus the follow-up calls needed. But then you = probably know what the definition for an optimist is? An Optimist: Someone with one foot planted firmly on the ground! Ardith 8-) ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Jacqui, Thank you for the response. = Yes, I=20 too "fear" too many calls from 90 mailings, thus the follow-up calls=20 needed. But then you probably know what the definition for an = optimist=20 is?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>An Optimist: Someone with one foot planted = firmly on the=20 ground!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ardith 8-)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0116_01BF0436.201D4F00-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:05:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Ann Truesdale <anntrue@MINDSPRING.COM> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barbara, I must say you do keep up with things. ;-) Of the organizations to which I belong, I don't see any of them offering much opportunity for marketing, other than ASI - not even the Association for Veterinary Infomatics. Anybody out there got any suggestions for the medical and science topic areas? Outside of scholarly indexing I don't see much potential there. Ann Truesdale Barbara wrote: > Hi Ann, > > Virtually every group I know about does maintain a Web site. Also, I am a > member of 10 professional organizations at the moment, so I get lots of > newsletters with calendars of upcoming meetings. I always having reading > material to catch up on! > <snip> ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:52:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: SageWords1@AOL.COM Subject: Indexers Experienced with Scientific Material - Job Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All, The Lyons Press in New York needs a book indexed. I was offered the job, but after reviewing some sample pages feel that it is beyond my capabilities at the current time. The book is called The Scientific American Book of the Brain and is a compilation of 30+ articles written by scientists about all aspects of the brain. It is full of scientific words and jargon, and is approximately 340 pages, with 10 pages available for the index. There are some illustrations. Time frame to complete the index is ASAP/3 weeks. If you have experience with this type of material, please contact Jane Elias, Production Editor at The Lyons Press. Jane asked for e-mails only--no phone calls please. If you do not have experience with scientific material, please do not contact her about this job. Jane's e-mail address is: janelias@aol.com Thanks for your help, and good luck! Debbie Graf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:35:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: Willa MacAllen <macallen@TIAC.NET> Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences In-Reply-To: <004b01bf046e$7201d6a0$4ac9f7a5@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All: > >Anybody out there got any suggestions for the medical and science topic >areas? Outside of scholarly indexing I don't see much potential there. > >Ann Truesdale One organization is the American Medical Writers Association, which is having it's annual meeting in Philadelphia near the end of October. Willa (who would love to spend my entire professional life attending conferences rather than working, but who knows that that that won't pay my bills (sigh)... :) ) Willa MacAllen Information Organizer MacAllen's Information Services Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:46:02 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, There are writers' groups all over the place, and you might try the Council for Biology Editors, as just one example of a scientific/editorial group. I'm sure there are many others I know nothing about. Since academics write a lot of trade books, you could try at your local college or university to find out what groups meet locally. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:49:31 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: BECohen653@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Marketing at Conferences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann, AMWA has local chapters . . . I know the Indy chapter is meeting this very evening. You might have a local chapter in your area. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 22:02:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group <INDEX-L@LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU> From: "Ardith Ayotte, R.T." <abbaindx@CROSSLINK.NET> Subject: Husband-Wife Indexer Teams Comments: To: ASI-L@onelist.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List members, Helen wrote to Sandi Shroeder and to ASI-L today: "BTW, my husband, Alan, and I attended the Colorado Chapter's workshop = in Boulder with Susan Olason as speaker on Saturday. It was a great = workshop and we were impressed with the number of people who attended, the thorough presentation, the professionalism of the chapter members, and the fact = that our ASI president (you!) attended. We are contemplating careers in = indexing and were favorably influenced! Thank you for attending and for all your = wonderful support! We look forward to more communication with you and = other ASI members." -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 I, too, am grateful to Sandi and other Board members for their = commitment to our ASI and for their hard work (volunteers!), in the = midst of their own indexing work. Thank you all SO MUCH! =20 Secondly, I am interested in hearing from/about any Husband-Wife Indexer = Teams. My husband and I have discussed his joining me in this = interesting and rewarding profession - especially with the joy and = comfort of working out of our home office. =20 Are any of our colleagues teaming with their spouse in our craft? How = goes it? Any advice? =20 =20 From VERY SOGGY, still raining here in Virginia (near Fredericksburg), Ardith Ayotte 8-) ABBA Index Services =20 abbaindx@crosslink.net ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear List members,</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><STRONG>Helen wrote to Sandi Shroeder and to ASI-L=20 today:</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>"BTW, my husband, Alan, and I attended the Colorado = Chapter's=20 workshop in<BR>Boulder with Susan Olason as speaker on Saturday. = It was a=20 great workshop and<BR>we were impressed with the number of people who = attended,=20 the thorough<BR>presentation, the professionalism of the chapter = members, =20 and the fact that<BR>our ASI president (you!) attended. <STRONG>We = are=20 contemplating careers in indexing<BR>and were favorably = influenced! =20 </STRONG>Thank you for attending and for all your wonderful = support! We=20 look forward to more communication with you and other ASI members."<BR> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I, too, am grateful to Sandi and other Board = members for=20 their commitment to our ASI and for their hard work (volunteers!), in = the midst=20 of their own indexing work. Thank you all SO MUCH!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Secondly, <STRONG><EM>I am interested in hearing = from/about=20 any Husband-Wife Indexer Teams</EM></STRONG>. My husband and I = have=20 discussed his joining me in this interesting and rewarding profession -=20 especially with the joy and comfort of working out of our home=20 office.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Are any of our colleagues teaming with their spouse = in our=20 craft? How goes it? Any advice? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>From VERY SOGGY, still raining</FONT><FONT size=3D2> = here in=20 Virginia (near Fredericksburg),</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ardith Ayotte 8-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2>ABBA Index Services</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20 href=3D"mailto:abbaindx@crosslink.net">abbaindx@crosslink.net</A></FONT><= /DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D2> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_009F_01BF047C.FC0F9A40--