Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9906D" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:52:44 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William G Meisheid Subject: Re: eBooks In-Reply-To: <199906211146.HAA26902@www.honza.com> I also didn't notice any provision for indexes, only full text search. Did I miss something? ________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com email: wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:06:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sullivan, John" Subject: Re: eBooks Unfortunately, I think we're going to see problems with competing "standards" with these things, at least for the next few years. Material being converted for delivery on ebooks might have indexes; new content might well have just full-text search, since that's cheap and easy to provide. One ebook that looks quite interesting is the Everybook Dedicated Reader (http://www.everybook.net/). From what I can determine, its native format is PDF; that opens it up to a wide range of possibilities. Also, developing hyper-linked indexes for PDF is relatively easy. We should all keep an eye on this technology -- not quite ready for prime time yet, but eventually they could revolutionize the publising industry. John Sullivan Stratus Computer > -----Original Message----- > From: William G Meisheid [SMTP:wgm@SAGELINE.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 8:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: eBooks > > I also didn't notice any provision for indexes, only full text search. Did > I > miss something? > > ________________________________________________________ > William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" > WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP > Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training > Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 > http://www.sageline.com email: wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:26:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: names and chronological order Sylvia Coates wrote, in part: >Regarding the > Japanese name; you need to ask the editor if the Japanese names in the text > are written in Japanese order (family name first) or in Western order (family > name last). It can be done either way, accordingly to the author's or editor's > choice, and will be consistent throughout the text. Unfortunately, assuming that the name order used in the text is consistent is not always a good idea. As Ling pointed out, the country where an individual lives may have a bearing on the order in which their names appear. I recently indexed a book on China; most of the Chinese names appeared in the traditional Chinese order (family name followed by given name), and these were indexed as they appeared. However, two Chinese-born authors who now live in the West have switched to the Western convention (given name followed by family name.) Fortunately, I was able to recognize this because their names appeared in the bibliography. I had to invert these names for the index. For Japanese names (at least, and perhaps for other cultures as well) there may also be a dichotomy within a given text between modern and historical names. Even if the editors have decided to use Western name order for modern Japanese names, they may retain Japanese order for historical/older names, since to change these could lead to confusion. And of course, there is always the possibility that the author(s) and editors(s) strove to use one order consistently, but missed a few names along the way. As we all know, even the best proof-readers and copy-editors occasionally miss something! :-D Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:44:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Sherman Grayson Subject: Digest command I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to send my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the instructions from the reference card - any suggestions? Julie Grayson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:26:20 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: names and chronological order The question of ordering entries is one I can speak to with some interest. My index for "Art and Affection: A Biography of Virginia Woolf," was one of three books shortlisted for the 1997 ASI / H. W. Wilson Award. One of the items specifically noted in the evaluation of the index was the uses of different orderings, depending on the heading. I would encourage you to use chronological order for the entries under "Sagan, life." It turns out that the use of different ordering styles, when done properly, (i.e., in appropriate places) is actually transparent to the reader. Kate Mertes, who presented the evaluation of "Art and Affection" said that it took her nearly an hour of looking at the index before she noticed the different orderings used. (That index was also the basis for a roundtable, "Breaking the Rules," that I presented at the annual conference several years ago.) Naturally, I do not advocate doing this without a good reason. It would seem, however, that your case fits one possible scenario for combining different ordering styles in the same index. Fred Leise Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services In a message dated 99-06-21 19:43:58 EDT, you write: > > A second question I have regards the order of the index. In looking at > Nancy Mulvany's book I see that biographies are often ordered chronologically > rather than alphabetically. Is it possible or proper to mix two types of > ordering. For example I would like to order most of the index alphabetically, > but there is one group of entries that list the main events of Sagan's life. > This group of entries I would like to list chronologically. Any feedback on > this? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:29:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Craig Brown Subject: Re: eBooks On 6/22/1999 8:06 AM Sullivan, John wrote (in part): >Unfortunately, I think we're going to see problems with competing >"standards" with these things, at least for the next few years. Agreed. It's human nature to believe a better way lies ahead. Look at the proliferation of batteries, computer languages, operating systems, means of representing computer code (BCD, EBCDIC, ASCII, UniCode), recording and reproducing music, delivering television broadcasts, and on and on. Craig Brown The Last Word Indexing Services (314) 352-9094 lastword@i1.net www.i1.net/~lastword ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:02:30 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: names and chronological order Jack Lewis says: A second question I have regards the order of the index. In looking at = Nancy Mulvany's book I see that biographies are often ordered = chronologically rather than alphabetically. Is it possible or proper to = mix two types of ordering. For example I would like to order most of the = index alphabetically, but there is one group of entries that list the = main events of Sagan's life. This group of entries I would like to list = chronologically. Any feedback on this? I've often seen subentries in chronological order in biographies, and I think that's appropriate (especially for the subject of the book). I certainly agree with the advice of others here on the list to consult with the editor to see if they have a preference, but I'd be prepared to offer the suggestion of putting Sagan's subentries chronilogically. For Example: Sagan, Carl childhood (1934-xx) education (19xx-xx) marriage (assuming that he married and it's discussed in the book) teaching career (19xx-xx) at Cornell (19xx-xx) books written by television programs But the main point is to do what you think would be most helpful to your audience. Where would your reader look for certain info on Sagan? (Note that you may have to break down some of the example sub entries into main headings and just have "See" cross references to them.) Hope that helps. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 http://www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:23:56 -0500 Reply-To: salt@inlink.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Taylor Subject: Re: names and chronological order In case not everyone knows... Your local library may now be offering online biographical resources to their patrons. Titles like the "Biography Index", "Current Biography" and "Biography and Genealogy Master Index" are being grouped with other databases into affordable packages for public libraries. Give your local library a call. Some systems are able to cover the cost outright; others may be able to provide access to a shelf of regularly-updated reference sources for the price of a "Friends" membership. Also, the Library of Congress' author and subject catalogs are a good place to search for names: http://www.loc.gov Anne (hopin' that the grammar's alright) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:34:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William G Meisheid Subject: ANNOUNCE: RoboHELP 2000 Online Indexing Training Sageline Publishing announces two courses of interest to technical writers, help authors, and indexers: Basic Online Indexing (1 day August 23, 1999 $395) This is a beginner's course on indexing that includes issues related on online indexing. Indexing using RoboHELP 2000 Classic and HTML Editions (2 days August 24-25, 1999 $695) This course presumes beginning indexing knowledge or the Basic Online Indexing course and goes in-depth, covering indexing online for Help files and the web using Blue Sky's authoring tools. All classes are limited to five students on a first come, first serve basis. For more information visit our website http://www.sageline.com/RoboHELP.html or call us at 410-465-2040. ASI individual members ask for the ASI special for non-corporate students. ________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com email: wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:51:12 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Tombs Subject: Advice Sought I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance! I've done half a dozen indexes so far, all of them straight-forward name indexes. Each of them has been commissioned for a set fee. Now, however, I have received my first commission for a full index, and the publisher will pay based on an hourly rate. Since this is my first full index, it will take me appreciably longer than an experienced indexer. Also, I shall take my time over it to make sure that it is as good as I can make it. That leaves me with the problem of negotiating a price. If I billed based on the number of hours I take, I'm sure the publisher will have a heart-attack! The book I am to index is 230 pages long, and is a work of academic political and social history. The book will be read, and the index used, mainly by academics. Can any experienced indexers give me a rough idea of how long such an index should take to complete? I know it's difficult, but I would appreciate any help you can give. Michael Tombs Michael.Tombs@tesco.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:11:32 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sylvia Coates Subject: Re: Advice Sought Dear Michael, I don't think that anyone can give you an really accurate idea of how long such a book will take you to index. This is because time spent on an index always depends on experience, knowledge of the subject, and your own personal traits (reading speed/comprehension). I can usually estimate what it would take me to finish a book but would never try to do the same for another indexer. My advice to you is to start charging by the page. This way the publisher knows exactly how much they will be expected to pay without any surprises. Also, the publisher won't feel as though they are paying for your "learning curve" time. In addition, as you get faster your pay per hour will go up without you being forced to increase your hourly fee. This doesn't mean that at some point you might not want to increase your per page rate but it does mean that you won't feel forced to negotiate with the client every time your speed increases just to keep up. Why should you take a "pay cut" because you are able to index faster and more efficiently? I very seldom work for anything other than a per page rate and feel really comfortable about this method. The publisher gets an index for a set price (which they know about in advance) and I usually end up making more per hour due to speed and experience than I could probably negotiate from them. It's a win-win situation. While it's true that you might, in the beginning, not make as much per hour you will make up for it in the long run. And, as you've already stated, they is no reason for the client to have to pay for your learning curve time. I know that other indexers may use other methods but the per page rate is my favorite and the one I use 99% of the time. Good luck, Sylvia Coates Michael Tombs wrote: > I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance! > > I've done half a dozen indexes so far, all of them straight-forward name > indexes. Each of them has been commissioned for a set fee. > > Now, however, I have received my first commission for a full index, and the > publisher will pay based on an hourly rate. Since this is my first full > index, it will take me appreciably longer than an experienced indexer. Also, > I shall take my time over it to make sure that it is as good as I can make > it. That leaves me with the problem of negotiating a price. If I billed > based on the number of hours I take, I'm sure the publisher will have a > heart-attack! > > The book I am to index is 230 pages long, and is a work of academic > political and social history. The book will be read, and the index used, > mainly by academics. > > Can any experienced indexers give me a rough idea of how long such an index > should take to complete? > > I know it's difficult, but I would appreciate any help you can give. > > Michael Tombs > Michael.Tombs@tesco.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:47:38 -0400 Reply-To: riofrancos@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maro Riofrancos Subject: Position open We need an indexer or indexing apprentice to work in-house. Duties would include a small amount of office work as well as indexing. All indexing work is done directly on the computer (owner is allergic to paper :)), therefore computer skills are important. Salary commensurate with experience and skills. We are a small company but we index over 400 books a year. Maro Riofrancos Riofrancos & Co. Indexes 290 Riverside Drive New York, NY 10025 Tel: (212) 864-2121 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:16:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop Subject: e-mail address All -- Just in case you have my AOL address in your address book, please delete it. I finally decided to cancel my old AOL account, which I seldo= m used. My preferred e-mail address is: LoriLathrop@compuserve.com As a "backup" service, I also have an account with Bell South, where my e-mail address is: indexer@bellsouth.net Happy indexing! .... Lori Lori Lathrop (LoriLathrop@compuserve.com) URL - http://idt.net/~lathro19 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:21:55 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Advice Sought My two cents on estimates: For an average scholarly book, I don't think you can bill for indexing less than 5 pages per hour if you are slow, nor should you have to bill for less than 10 pages per hour if you are fast. Therefore, for a 230-page book: 230 pages / 5 pages per hour = 46 hours 230 pages / 10 pages per hours = 23 hours I'd split the difference as an estimate and guess I could do it in 35 hours or so. If you think you need 46 hours, you could always bill at a lower rate per hour to compensate for your own speed. Figured another way: 230 pages x $3.50 per page = $805 $805 / 35 hours = $23.00 per hour This assumes about 5 entries per indexable page, turning 7.5 pages in an hour, or creation of 37.5 entries in an hour. I would call that a slow rate for scholarly indexing, so $23.00 per hour sounds about right. If you can work faster, you want to be sure your hourly rate is higher. (I don't see why, just because an indexer is slow, he or she should get more money than a fast indexer would.) I usually try to figure my estimates on a per-page and per-hour rate just to make sure they are in line. If one or the other comes out significantly higher, then I want to know why. (If I am estimating a slow rate of turning pages, I want to compensate in my per-page rate; if I am able to turn a lot of pages per hour, I want to be sure I'm not charging for too few hours of work). There should be some balance between your per-page and per-hour rates. And an average scholarly book commands about $3.50/page for indexing, assuming 5-8 entries per indexable page. Hope this helps. Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:28:39 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Advice Sought Hi Sylvia, I agree that no one should make an estimate for anyone else. But I do think there are rules of thumb about what clients are willing to pay. Which, for beginning indexers, amounts to the same thing. I don't know too many scholarly clients who are paying more than $3.50/page for an index of average density. When I charge more than that, it is usually because the index is of unusual density, is on a fast track, has three foreign languages and no translations, or has a generous departmental/research grant to pay for the indexing! In other words, you can justify higher rates because the book isn't "average." I'm curious whether other members of ASI's Scholarly Indexing SIG have comments about what scholarly publishers are paying. I think $3.50/page doesn't startle anyone these days, but more than $4.00/page requires an explanation. Other experiences? Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:46:14 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Abbott Subject: first indexing job Hi all, Would it be appropriate briefly to discuss here your first _paying_ index job, especially in terms of readiness to take on this "real" job? JA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:15:59 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: first indexing job John Abbott wrote: > > Hi all, Would it be appropriate briefly to discuss here your first _paying_ > index job, especially in terms of readiness to take on this "real" job? > JA I think so. It's a learning experience after all. I don't know how many people on the list have already been there though. But please do. I'll go later./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:30:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Hernandez Subject: Re: first indexing job On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:46:14 EDT John Abbott writes: > >Hi all, Would it be appropriate briefly to discuss here your first >_paying_ >index job, especially in terms of readiness to take on this "real" >job? >JA To become an indexer I took the USDA Basic Indexing course, practiced indexing by doing complete indexes to eight books of various lengths and subjects, and marketed to publishers who published books in what I considered to be my areas of expertise. My first book happened to be right in line with my educational background, so, though very nervous about my first paying job, I was comfortable with the subject. My second paid indexing job came just a week after I finished my first, and it was on a subject I wasn't familiar with. This mostly meant I went a bit slower, and I also reserved about five days out of the schedule to do the edit. I kept in mind what I had learned about structuring an index and making the information available to the user. It worked out just fine! You never know until you try! - Susan *************************************** Susan Danzi Hernandez BookEnd Indexing susanhernandez@juno.com (316) 789-0576 (Kansas) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:48:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Homer Ellison Subject: Copyrights I understand that unless the contract between the publisher/author and the indexer specifically stipulates that the index is being created as a work "made for hire," the copyright to the index is owned by the indexer. My question is the following: Practically speaking, how is this significant to the indexer? In other words, under what circumstances can this right be violated? Would it be considered a violation for the author to republish the work along with the index, and not consult the indexer or pay him royalties? Does this mean that the indexer may republish the index independently of the book, as he chooses? Perhaps someone could suggest some examples of how the copyright ownership of an index could become an issue. Regards, Homer Ellison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:51:09 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Patricia H. Gross" Subject: Re: first indexing job; the old days In-Reply-To: <199906230133.VAA02479@mx03.erols.com> John Abbott writes: > >Would it be appropriate briefly to discuss here your first _paying_ >index job, especially in terms of readiness to take on this "real" >job? I never had a course in indexing, but just figured out what to do by reading the Chicago Style Manual and looking at examples of other indexes. My first indexing job was for a medical publisher that had been giving me proofreading and copyediting for more than 15 years. This is now almost 20 years ago (which shows that I am in the non-young category). I had never considered doing indexing, but my contacts at the publisher knew that I was capable of careful work, and they were short of indexers and asked if I would give it a try. I think what they gave me was a quite short book, no more than 200 pages, and it was most likely either one of a series, or a revised edition, so that they could provide a copy of a book with an index I could use as model. (I still find it helpful when a publisher sends me a sample of a full index that shows what they like in an index.) The first book was one for which the publisher didn't have a tight time deadline, or I would never have been able to do it. I would never have started indexing in the pre-computer days, using index cards (I assume there is hardly anyone still doing indexes on index cards?). For the first few years I was indexing, I would make preliminary notes on the page proofs in the day time, and then in the early evening I would have access to my husband's terminal (hooked up to the computer company where he worked). I wasn't supposed to use this set up during the day, when it was understood that the company's computer was only to be used for company-related work, and late at night my husband was home and logged in himself, but there was a window of time between 5 and 9 pm, and again at 6 to 8 am when I could have access to this system. It wasn't an easy system to use. UNIX is I think what the system was (I'd ask my husband but he died last year--it's so hard not to have him around when I want this kind of question answered). I guess I must have done the alphabetization roughly by inserting entries at approximately the correct place, and then checking when I was editing the index, and moving entries when necessary. Moving blocks of text involved putting a point at the start of the text block, another mark at the end of the text block, and then some third mark where I wanted the insertion to go, and I remember sometimes it would go wrong and it would take a long time to figure out what had happened. Then in July or August of 1984 the first Macintosh arrived, a truly life-changing event. WYSIWYG and all its blessings. It had pathetically little memory, and made it preferable to do indexes of only very small books, but at one point I foolishly agreed to do the index for an 1100-page encyclopedia of neuroscience. Huge page size, and more than 10 to 15 entries per page. It was a monster to try to do on a tiny computer, so at then end of every batch of 20 or 30 pages of proofs, I would separate the entries into alphabetical clusters, and then open the file of the previously gathered entries for A-C, etc., and combine the new entries. I guess I had to look at printouts of previous stuff and other letters to figure out where I stood for cross references, etc. I think it turned out to be a perfectly good index, but it took several months. (It did pay well enough, though--$4 per page was good money for the 1980s.) Patricia Gross ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:18:30 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: first indexing job; the old days At 10:51 PM 6/22/1999 -0400, Patricia H. Gross wrote: >I never had a course in indexing, but just figured out what to do by >reading the Chicago Style Manual and looking at examples of other indexes. >My first indexing job was for a medical publisher that had been giving me >proofreading and copyediting for more than 15 years. This is now almost 20 >years ago (which shows that I am in the non-young category). I had never >considered doing indexing, but my contacts at the publisher knew that I was >capable of careful work, and they were short of indexers and asked if I >would give it a try. I think what they gave me was a quite short book, no >more than 200 pages, and it was most likely either one of a series, or a >revised edition, so that they could provide a copy of a book with an index >I could use as model. (I still find it helpful when a publisher sends me a >sample of a full index that shows what they like in an index.) The first >book was one for which the publisher didn't have a tight time deadline, or >I would never have been able to do it. This sounds exactly like how I got started...no formal training, just an editor desperate for an index, who insisted that I could do it...and I could! >I would never have started indexing in the pre-computer days, using index >cards (I assume there is hardly anyone still doing indexes on index >cards?). I don't still use them, but that's how I started. In fact, I still have about 1000 blank index cards and my old fiberboard indexing box around somewhere. Just in case things go way bonkers on December 31, I could still turn out a creditable index. I even have a manual typewriter! >(It did pay well enough, though--$4 per page was good money for the 1980s.) I'd say $4 per page is STILL good money, even today. Back then, it must have seemed like a small fortune...except that you had to work darned hard to earn it. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:18:32 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Copyrights At 06:48 PM 6/22/1999 -0700, Homer Ellison wrote: >My question is the following: Practically speaking, how is this significant >to the indexer? In other words, under what circumstances can this right be >violated? Would it be considered a violation for the author to republish >the work along with the index, and not consult the indexer or pay him >royalties? Does this mean that the indexer may republish the index >independently of the book, as he chooses? I think for most of us, this has little practical effect on our work. Yes, we may own the copyright on the index to a specific book, but it is usually useless without the book itself (except as a sample of your work, which is an important reason to state that you retain the right to use it as such). Technically, it probably would be a violation of copyright law to republish a book (with its index) without at least asking for permission from the indexer. But again, practically speaking, the book would almost certainly have been revised between printings...or done in a different typeface or page size, necessitating a new index (or heavy revision of the old one). So it would be difficult to imagine collecting any damages for this, because the index would essentially be "new." You could probably republish your index without the book, but why would you want to...unless you are dealing with some fantastically popular fictional book or series that doesn't already HAVE an index, and for which people would pay to purchase one separately. What good would an index to a medical textbook be, say, without the book itself? I'm not a lawyer, so don't take this as gospel. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:31:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Martha Malnor Subject: ASI Apparel... Dear Fellow Indexers, Here's another chance to order ASI shirts, sweatshirts, and introducing...baseball hats ! Great Lakes Chapter of ASI is selling ASI polo shirts, T-shirts, sweatshirts, and baseball hats for the whole family. The shirts and sweatshirts are embroidered with the ASI logo and the phrase "THE INDEX IS THE KEY." They come in either forest green with a cream logo or wheat with a plum logo. The adjustable-size baseball hats are wheat with a green logo on the front and "American Society of Indexers" on the back. Please send order forms and checks (made out to Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter) to Caryl Wenzel (address below). Thanks! Following are product descriptions and the order form: ************************************************************ Polo Shirts (Adult only): Jerzees brand, 100% combed cotton pique with quarter-length sleeves, two wood-tone button placket, welt collar and cuffs, side vents with 2" dropped tail. T-Shirts (Adult and Youth): Hanes Beefy-T, heavyweight 100% preshrunk ring spun cotton, double needle hem and sleeve. Sweatshirts (Adult only): Jerzees brand, 80/20 heavyweight with set-in sleeve, fully overseamed, ribbed spandex collar, cuffs, and waistband Sweatshirts (Youth only): Jerzees brand, 50/50 set-in sleeve heavyweight crew sweatshirt, full athletic cut, fully coverseamed, ribbed spandex collar, cuffs, and waistband ********************************************************* Order Form (please print) Name____________________________________________________ Address___________________________________________________ City/State/Zip______________________________________________ Day Phone (____) ______________E-mail______________________ CODES STYLES: (Unisex) T T-shirt P Polo shirt S Sweatshirt H Hat COLORS: W (Plum logo on WHEAT) FG (Cream logo on FOREST GREEN) (Hat color - green logo on WHEAT only) ADULT SIZES: M, L, XL, XXL, XXXL YOUTH SIZES: YS (size 6-8), YM (size 10-12), YL (size 14-16) UNIT PRICES: (INCLUDES SALES TAXES) ADULT: $20 per T-shirt M-L-XL $23 per T-shirt XXL-XXXL $30 per polo shirt M-L-XL $33 per polo shirt XXL-XXXL $30 per sweatshirt M-L-XL $33 per sweatshirt XXL-XXXL $15 per baseball hat (one-size-fits-all) YOUTH: $16 per youth T-shirt $30 per youth sweatshirt Polo shirts not available in youth sizes DELIVERY CHARGES: Order Total Delivery* $20-100 $5.00 $101-150 $7.00 $151-200 $9.00 Over $201 $11.00 NO EXCHANGES NO REFUNDS STYLE CODE COLOR CODE SIZE CODE UNIT PRICE QTY TOTAL Subtotal Delivery* TOTAL Make check payable to: Chicago/Great Lakes Chapter Mail to: Caryl Wenzel 8315 Route 53, #B-14 Woodridge, IL 60517 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:32:27 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Advice Sought Barbara wrote: << I'm curious whether other members of ASI's Scholarly Indexing SIG have comments about what scholarly publishers are paying. I think $3.50/page doesn't startle anyone these days, but more than $4.00/page requires an explanation. >> I'm getting $3.50 from most of my scholarly publishers these days, but I'm also getting $4.00 from several and would like to move up to that rate with more of them. I also regularly turn down scholarly jobs from publishers paying $2.50 to $3.00 a page, so someone must be working for those rates. I'm extremely fast, and at those lower rates I don't make what I consider a reasonable dollar per hour. (Textbooks and other easier material are a different story.) Do Mi Stauber ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:01:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Scholarly indexing rates Do Mi, I too regularly get $4.00/page for certain types of scholarly texts, and as much as $5.00/page for really tricky ones. I do think the rates are slowly creeping up, but there also seem to be plenty of $2.50/page offers out there. OK for when you are starting and trying to build your list, but not a living wage for the time it usually takes to index an average scholarly text, at least in my experience. (At $2.50 per page, I have to turn more than 10 pages an hour to cover my overhead, and I find that to be unrealistic for most scholarly books. I can't turn 10 pages in an hour if the typeface is small, and anything with complicated notes is definitely slower for me. And I consider myself a fairly fast reader/indexer.) I agree completely that textbooks and other straightforward materials are a whole other story, as they are generally much less dense than what my average scholarly book looks like. (My average takes into account that I've been indexing scholarly books for 15 years and have a strong academic background; I don't think I get nearly enough straightforward "average" books to index, when I see what else is out there. On the other hand, I take pride in not being intimidated by foreign languages or densely argued texts. I enjoy wrestling with a dense argument and making it searchable!) A lot of what I base my estimates on is that "pages turned per hour" rate, which is always so hard to estimate for scholarly texts. For example, I just finished an index with an incredibly slow rate of about three pages an hour. You don't want to know how much grumbling I did about that one, since I'd estimated for a faster read. Luckily the text itself was fascinating, which was a small compensation for how little I was making. Also, it wasn't a long book, so overall, I could afford to make a bad judgment on that one. On a longer book, I'd definitely have tried to renegotiate that contract! One reason I also index trade books and reference books, which for me are much faster page-turners, is to maintain some balance in my income and in my pace of life. If I do a slow page turner, it's nice to follow it with a fast page-turner. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:53:38 -0700 Reply-To: penguins@wave.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Breffni Whelan Subject: Re: first indexing job; the old days -----Original Message----- >John Abbott writes: >> >>Would it be appropriate briefly to discuss here your first _paying_ >>index job, especially in terms of readiness to take on this "real" >>job? > The first index I ever did was before I had even heard of indexing as a profession - I had borrowed a computer, taught myself WordStar, then written a short genealogy. So, it seeming to need one, I made it an index . After finishing it I realized I'd neglected to include in the index the two commonest surnames! A year or two later (1983) I begin working with a group of indexers and was taught everything step by step, starting with how to alphabetize index cards. Soon I got to do more of the mind work, but for five or six years always had feedback on the indexes I worked on. This was quite helpful, though maybe too easy - 'cause when I came back out west and started in on my own, I then had to face that I now had sole responsibility for what I created, and no one to save me if I didn't do it well. (Plus marketing - that too had been done for me before.) Nowadays INDEX-L provides some of that backup which I experienced in my earlier days in indexing. -- Breffni Whelan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 08:21:20 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: first indexing job; the old days My first indexing job was for a journal my former wife was editing for the American Library Association and it too paid $4/hour. This was in 1972. I borrowed a book from the library by Collison (English indexer) and got an idea of what was involved from that. Besides some more ALA indexes (which never paid more than $4/hour) the next big job was for a government agency - doing an index to their annual proceedings. Yes, this was done on 3X5 cards - by the end I had over 7,000 cards, in about seven card file boxes, which then had to be typed on special optical-reading paper which could not have even one corrected typo (450 hours of work total). What a nightmare! Then with my first IBM PC I got a database program called (I wrote about this in an article published in THE INDEXER) and indexed with it until MIS (Microcomputer Indexing System) from Compugramma came out. Finally Cindex came along and saved my hands, mind, and everything. Now I'm beginning to use Dragon Naturally Speaking. Indexing certainly has come a long way! Charles Anderson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:31:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Advice Sought In-Reply-To: <199906230406.XAA18847@a.mx.execpc.com> Barbara Cohen said: >I don't know too many >scholarly clients who are paying more than $3.50/page for an index of average >density. A few of mine are now paying $3.75 and $4.00 for average density. I think the average has been at $3.50 for a number of years, and we can start nudging it up. Good luck everybody. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: first indexing job In-Reply-To: <199906230406.XAA18847@a.mx.execpc.com> About halfway through the USDA course, I started telling friends and acquaintances that I was branching out into indexing (from editing). Much to my surprise, one of these people had a friend who needed an indexer for a biography she was just finishing, and was I interested? I took a couple of deep breaths and said yes. I hadn't planned to start so soon, but I'd done several practice indexes, and the USDA course was taking so-o-o-o long, and this felt like an offer I couldn't refuse. When I spoke to the author, I made sure she understood that I was brand new. She was so relieved to find someone to pass this "burden" on to, I think she would've taken a chimp who could type. Then I read Hazel Bell's booklet _Indexing Biographies_. I remember feeling quite anxious and inadequate the entire time I was indexing that biography. The author and the editor were pleased with the index, though. I showed it to a couple of my (more experienced) indexing buddies, who gently ripped it to pieces. Of course it's not the kind of index I would turn in *now*, but everybody has to start somewhere. I did the most careful and thoughtful index that I was capable of at that innocent moment in my career. And there's no shame in that. My second paid index was a referral from an indexer I knew locally, who had been on the lookout, on my behalf, for a good project for someone brand new. Wasn't she a sweetie? The book was a bibliography, and all I had to do was pick out names and literary themes. It was much easier than the first book. I can't really say whether I judged my own readiness accurately, but it did turn out OK. And I suspect that any indexer's first paid project is going to be a real nail-biting experience. Heck, seven years later, I still have pretty short nails. ;-) Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:29:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Copyrights On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:48:01 -0700 Homer Ellison writes: > >I understand that unless the contract between the publisher/author andthe >indexer specifically stipulates that the index is being created as a work >"made for hire," the copyright to the index is owned by the indexer. > >My question is the following: Practically speaking, how is this significant >to the indexer? In other words, under what circumstances can this right be >violated? Would it be considered a violation for the author to republish >the work along with the index, and not consult the indexer or pay him >royalties? Does this mean that the indexer may republish the index >independently of the book, as he chooses? Perhaps someone could suggest >some examples of how the copyright ownership of an index could become an >issue. > >Regards, > >Homer Ellison The customary arrangement for freelance indexers is that we do "work for hire." Usually this means that once we have been paid in full, all rights revert back to the publisher. I do not know of any recent situations when a freelancer attempted to enforce his or her copyright after publication and payment of the index. There may be cases I am not aware of. HOWEVER.... I was able to use my copyright to my advantage about three years ago when a book packager owed me a considerable amount of money for two large indexes I had done for them. This packager (I would be happy to name them to anyone who e-mails me directly. Their name is not relevant to this discussion.) routinely took six to eight months to pay the freelancers they contracted with. As far as I was concerned, our contract indicated that I owned the copyrights to my indexes as long as I had not been paid. I tired of the packager's delaying tactics, so I took what I regarded as the next step. I called and wrote to the packager's clients, the actual publishers of the books, telling them that I still owned the copyright to material that they were publishing and that I intend to enforce my copyright. To make a very long story short, the packager threatened to sue me for interfering with their relationship with their clients. I called their bluff and told them, in effect, to "go ahead and sue me." They never sued me and I was paid quickly. Of course, I would never work for them again and they don't want to hear from me again. I spoke about this incident at a meeting of the New York City Chapter of ASI and at a meeting of the Editiorial Freelancers Association, identifying the packager. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:08:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Digest command In-Reply-To: <199906221347.GAA04095@mx1.eskimo.com> --=====================_157199505==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't seen a post in answer to Julie's question. Would someone be kind enough to give us help in this? Jeri Lee At 09:44 AM 6/22/1999 -0400, you wrote: >I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to send >my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the >instructions from the reference card - any suggestions? > >Julie Grayson > Voice Transcription Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104 Renton, Washington 98058-7013 (425) 254-1352 --=====================_157199505==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't seen a post in answer to Julie's question.  Would someone be kind enough to give us help in this?

Jeri Lee

At 09:44 AM 6/22/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to send
>my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the
>instructions from the reference card - any suggestions?
>
>Julie Grayson
>
Voice Transcription
Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business
17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104
Renton, Washington  98058-7013
(425) 254-1352
 --=====================_157199505==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:23:06 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Organization: Binghamton University Subject: Re: Digest command Jeri, et. al. to switch to the digest form, send the following message to listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu set index-l digest leave the subject line blank and put nothing else in the body of the message. Charlotte Skuster index-l moderator Jeri Lee wrote: > --=====================_157199505==_.ALT > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't seen a post in answer > to Julie's question. Would someone be kind enough to give us help in this? > > Jeri Lee > > At 09:44 AM 6/22/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to send > >my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the > >instructions from the reference card - any suggestions? > > > >Julie Grayson > > > Voice Transcription > Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business > 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104 > Renton, Washington 98058-7013 > (425) 254-1352 > > --=====================_157199505==_.ALT > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > > > I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't > seen a post in answer to Julie's question.  Would someone be kind > enough to give us help in this?
>
> Jeri Lee
>
> At 09:44 AM 6/22/1999 -0400, you wrote:
> >I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to > send
> >my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the
> >instructions from the reference card - any suggestions?
> >
> >Julie Grayson
> >
> > Voice Transcription
> Tomorrow's Tools for Today's Business
> 17233 - 140th Avenue SE, Ste. 104
> Renton, Washington  98058-7013
> (425) 254-1352
> > > --=====================_157199505==_.ALT-- -- Charlotte Skuster Science Reference/Health Science Bibliographer Binghamton University Science Library P. O. Box 6012 Binghamton, NY 13902-6012 Phone: (607) 777-4122 Fax: (607) 777-2274 skuster@binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:33:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Scholarly rates Do Mi writes: > I also regularly turn down scholarly jobs from publishers >paying $2.50 to $3.00 a page, so someone must be working for those rates. I'm >extremely fast, and at those lower rates I don't make what I consider a >reasonable dollar per hour. (Textbooks and other easier material are a >different story.) > I'm one that accepts scholarly indexing work for under $3.00 a page --usually at $2.50. I tried to "nudge" those clients up to $2.75 per page and lost both of them. Even with a growing list of published indexes, the responses that I'm getting from my marketing efforts are trending downward. The last was for $1.35 per page and that only after I qualified with an indexing test. The material is for junior high and high school text books but the text itself is very advanced and they want a full "scholarly-type" index --for those rates! I'm still mulling this one over. The last actual index I completed (the one for Brill) contained a lot of German phrasing. I received $3.00 a page for that one and considered myself lucky. (Still waiting to get paid, though) Anything over $3.50 a page is unheard of in my experience; even $3.50 per page is unheard of. But, I have bills to pay so I do accept the lower rates. I'm guessing that my experience is more common than not. This is an extremely difficult business to get started in. Kudos to those of you who have made it out of the under $3.00 per page rate group. But for every one of us who tries to raise our rates, there are those willing to accept even lower figures. Lillian Ashworth ashworth@pullman.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:01:56 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: Re: Scholarly rates In-Reply-To: <199906231834.VAA28684@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> >The last actual index I completed (the one for Brill) contained a lot of >German phrasing. I received $3.00 a page for that one and considered myself >lucky. (Still waiting to get paid, though) Anything over $3.50 a page is Lillian, If Brill takes an inordinately long time to pay you, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Pim once suggested hiring me to do some editing but I'm wary of working for companies abroad, that may take advantage of free-lancers. Given how they treat their regular staff, I wouldn't expect them to treat the free-lancers with kid gloves. Hmmmm.... that reminds me that Pim told me that he once shouted at his senior desk editor until the man was cowering (actually he was afraid that Pim was going to hit him), while the new CEO was being given a tour of the offices. The senior desk editor (now in another division) had intended to screw the free-lance copyeditors on taxes and Pim, who works closely with the free-lancers, was upset. So I guess that story is relevant. Hope you get paid eventually. cheers, Avital ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:04:33 +0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Avital Pinnick Subject: previous mssg In-Reply-To: <199906222153.AAA22656@panda.mscc.huji.ac.il> OH HELL.... That message to Lilian was supposed to be private. I am SO SORRY. Next time I'll check the header more closely. I forgot that I was replying to someone on Index-L and not on CE-L, where "reply" goes directly to the sender. Someone, please hit me over the head with a blunt object... Avital Avital Pinnick, Ph.D. tel: 972-2-588-2063 Chief of Publications fax: 972-2-588-3584 Orion Center for the Study of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Hebrew University http://orion.mscc.huji.ac.il - DSS bibliography updated weekly ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:28:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jeri Lee Subject: Re: Digest command In-Reply-To: <199906231822.LAA10958@mx1.eskimo.com> --=====================_161997319==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks, Charlotte! At 02:23 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, you wrote: >Jeri, et. al. >to switch to the digest form, send the following message to >listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu > >set index-l digest > >leave the subject line blank and put nothing else in the body of the message. > >Charlotte Skuster >index-l moderator >Jeri Lee wrote: > >> --=====================_157199505==_.ALT >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't seen a post in answer >> to Julie's question. Would someone be kind enough to give us help in this? >> --=====================_161997319==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Thanks, Charlotte!

At 02:23 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Jeri, et. al.
>to switch to the digest form, send the following message to
>listserv@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu
>
>set index-l digest
>
>leave the subject line blank and put nothing else in the body of the message.
>
>Charlotte Skuster
>index-l moderator
>Jeri Lee wrote:
>
>> --=====================_157199505==_.ALT
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I, too, need to switch to the digesst form but I haven't seen a post in answer
>> to Julie's question.  Would someone be kind enough to give us help in this?
>>
--=====================_161997319==_.ALT-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:21:37 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lillian Ashworth Subject: Re: Scholarly rates To all interested parties: The publisher I mentioned (Brill) in my last posting is not paying me --the author (or his university department is) so I'm sure I will get paid eventually. Besides, they are local so I can camp on their doorstep if they don't! Sorry for the confusion --I should have made who the payer was more clear in my first note. However, I think that Avital's posting is extremely interesting and a cautionary tale for freelancers who don't know for whom we are working --at least at the early stages of indexer/publisher relationships. A lot of trust must be built up on both sides of the equation. Again, sorry for the confusion - Lillian ashworth@pullman.com >>The last actual index I completed (the one for Brill) contained a lot of >>German phrasing. I received $3.00 a page for that one and considered myself >>lucky. (Still waiting to get paid, though) Anything over $3.50 a page is > >Lillian, > >If Brill takes an inordinately long time to pay you, I'd appreciate it if >you could let me know. Pim once suggested hiring me to do some editing but >I'm wary of working for companies abroad, that may take advantage of >free-lancers. Given how they treat their regular staff, I wouldn't expect >them to treat the free-lancers with kid gloves. Hmmmm.... that reminds me >that Pim told me that he once shouted at his senior desk editor until the >man was cowering (actually he was afraid that Pim was going to hit him), >while the new CEO was being given a tour of the offices. The senior desk >editor (now in another division) had intended to screw the free-lance >copyeditors on taxes and Pim, who works closely with the free-lancers, was >upset. So I guess that story is relevant. Hope you get paid eventually. > >cheers, > >Avital > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:34:12 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Copyrights At 01:29 PM 6/23/1999 -0400, Elliot Linzer wrote: >The customary arrangement for freelance indexers is that we do "work >for hire." Usually this means that once we have been paid in full, all >rights revert back to the publisher. I'm not sure I would characterize this as the "customary" arrangement, unless you have a work-for-hire contract. My understanding of the technicalities is that you DO own the copyright on your index unless you've arranged otherwise...not that it [usually] matters much. >I do not know of any recent situations when a freelancer attempted to >enforce his or her copyright after publication and payment of the index. >There may be cases I am not aware of. HOWEVER.... I was able to use my >copyright to my advantage about three years ago when a book packager owed me >a considerable amount of money for two large indexes I had done for them.... Now, THIS was a brilliant ploy! And one that took considerable guts to pursue. Like you, I would hope this never happens again, but I'm so impressed that you were able to collect your fees using this bit of legal maneuvering. Thanks for telling us this story...I hope it will inspire others to stand strong (when possible) against slow pay/no pay clients. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: Scholarly rates At 11:33 AM 6/23/1999 -0700, Lillian Ashworth wrote: >I'm one that accepts scholarly indexing work for under $3.00 a page >--usually at $2.50. I tried to "nudge" those clients up to $2.75 per page >and lost both of them. Even with a growing list of published indexes, the >responses that I'm getting from my marketing efforts are trending downward. >The last was for $1.35 per page and that only after I qualified with an >indexing test. >The last actual index I completed (the one for Brill) contained a lot of >German phrasing. I received $3.00 a page for that one and considered myself >lucky. (Still waiting to get paid, though) Anything over $3.50 a page is >unheard of in my experience; even $3.50 per page is unheard of. But, I have >bills to pay so I do accept the lower rates. > >I'm guessing that my experience is more common than not. This is an >extremely difficult business to get started in. Kudos to those of you who >have made it out of the under $3.00 per page rate group. But for every one >of us who tries to raise our rates, there are those willing to accept even >lower figures. Lillian, when I first joined this list (maybe three or four years ago), I was appalled to discover that my then-current rate was at least fifty cents per page lower than most others with comparable skills and experience. With the support and encouragement of the folks here, I was able to gradually weed out the real low payers in my clientele and grant myself a raise to what was then an "average" per-page rate. Today, I simply don't work for less than $3 per page (unless it's a special situation), and average about $3.50 per page. Occasionally I will be offered a particularly complex book (usually scientific, for me...not scholarly) where I can ask--and receive--$4 or more per page. I also charge extra for name/author indexes because they add greatly to the density of the overall index and are a pain to check. Yes, there always will be people who, for whatever good and sufficient reason, are willing to work for much less than the average pay rate. When I first joined the list, we were discussing $1 a page as a minimum, even for beginners! My point is that this is a "condition" of any work you may undertake...not just indexing. There are always newbies, inexperienced, and just plain unqualified people who will do whatever it is for whatever they can get. You, however, no longer fit that description. You're experienced, capable, educated. YOU should be charging the appropriate rate for YOUR skill level. What you need, IMO, are some new clients with a better perspective on the importance of indexing AND the capability to pay for a good job from an experienced indexer. Intensify your marketing efforts and direct them at the larger publishers, in trade, text, and scholarly publishing. Tune up your samples, make your other marketing materials look and sound sharp and attractive (but still professional...no smilie faces or cutesy logos), and follow up every marketing packet with a telephone call. I guarantee that if you seriously pursue these efforts, you will find publisher who will pay you what you are worth. Good luck, and warm wishes... Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:53:45 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" I agree w/ all that Sonsie had to say on this matter. However, sometimes a "cutesy logo" isn't so bad. I know, for example, that Maria Coughlin uses a little cat logo. When I saw the logo recently (at the Mass Society of Indexers conference) on the cover of some folders, it didn't even have her name there, but I knew immediately who they came from. :-) And Maria is certainly *not* suffering for work. I use a broccoli logo with little feet. I was originally hesitant about this, but many fellow indexers here on Index-L urged me on. I find that publishers say, 'yes we received your info, I remember the little broccoli spear!' Well, I'm being picky here, but I just think that using a logo that really sticks in the minds of individuals to whom we market can really go a long way. -Kevin Broccoli Tune up your >samples, make your other marketing materials look and sound sharp and >attractive (but still professional...no smilie faces or cutesy logos), and >follow up every marketing packet with a telephone call. I guarantee that if >you seriously pursue these efforts, you will find publisher who will pay you >what you are worth. > >Good luck, and warm wishes... > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:04:15 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: rates and "cutesy logos" Hello all, Like Kevin, I find my logo helps me out in terms of recognition. Since my business is called Southwest Indexing, I've had a saguaro cactus on my business card in the past, and now have the stylized lizard called a gekko. People remember the package. That's the function of graphics -- to reinforce a message and anchor a message or name in people's minds. Good taste is always necessary. And the line between "good" and "too cutesy" is a fine one. Admittedly, having a built-in theme makes it relatively (it was so for me, living and working in the southwest part of the country and calling my business Southwest Indexing). But one can think of that in naming a business. If not a logo, one could consider a particular color combination or graphic made up of your initials and make that your "graphics signature". But a good graphic does help. Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" In-Reply-To: <199906231953.PAA00421@pluto.ipass.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: Indexer's Discussion Group > [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of > Kevin Broccoli > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 3:54 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" > > > I agree w/ all that Sonsie had to say on this matter. > However, sometimes a > "cutesy logo" isn't so bad. > > I know, for example, that Maria Coughlin uses a little > cat logo. When I saw > the logo recently (at the Mass Society of Indexers > conference) on the cover > of some folders, it didn't even have her name there, > but I knew immediately > who they came from. :-) And Maria is certainly *not* > suffering for work. > > I use a broccoli logo with little feet. I was > originally hesitant about > this, but many fellow indexers here on Index-L urged > me on. I find that > publishers say, 'yes we received your info, I remember > the little broccoli > spear!' > > Well, I'm being picky here, but I just think that > using a logo that really > sticks in the minds of individuals to whom we market > can really go a long > way. > > -Kevin Broccoli Just to chime in here... my logo includes a hedgehog. On my letterhead, a tiny hedgehog is at the top of the page, in light gray, with his black nose forming the dot over the "i" in "Information." The whole logo is a hedgehog standing on a pile of book next to a computer. That's on my business cards, and also appears as a watermark--so faint you can barely see it if you don't know it's there--on my stationary. So that's my experience. No one has told me it's too cutesy, and I'd appreciate it if someone would if they've seen it and feel that way. The only negative comment I've had is when people ask me it it's a possum! (Hi, Dianne!! :-). Regards, Ann Norcross Crossover Information, Inc. mailto:norcross@ipass.net > > Tune up your > >samples, make your other marketing materials look and > sound sharp and > >attractive (but still professional...no smilie faces > or cutesy logos), and > >follow up every marketing packet with a telephone > call. I guarantee that if > >you seriously pursue these efforts, you will find > publisher who will pay > you > >what you are worth. > > > >Good luck, and warm wishes... > > > > Sonsie > > sconroy@slonet.org > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:09:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Advice Sought-what is the question? Hi all, While I understand & agree with what Sylvia, Barbara and Do Mi have stated, I thought Michael's *real* question was how long would it take for a competent (non-beginner) indexer to index the book. Then he can take that hourly figure X a reasonable houly rate for his quote. Then the publisher will be none the wiser if he actually takes twice that long and only *really* makes half the stated rate. That way the publisher pays a reasonable price for the index and Michael is not stuck with a miserably low pay rate "on their books." I may be off base here, but I think it is a valid question anyway. Not all publishers can be talked into a page rate, which is how I would prefer to work myself. I also think Barbara's idea of calculating both by page & by hour is a great idea to check the final bid amount. Ann Truesdale Sylvia Coates wrote: > > Dear Michael, > > I don't think that anyone can give you an really accurate idea of how long such > a book will take you to index. This is because time spent on an index always > depends on experience, knowledge of the subject, and your own personal traits > (reading speed/comprehension). I can usually estimate what it would take me to > finish a book but would never try to do the same for another indexer. > > Michael Tombs wrote: > > > I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance! > > > > I've done half a dozen indexes so far, all of them straight-forward name > > indexes. Each of them has been commissioned for a set fee. > > > > Now, however, I have received my first commission for a full index, and the > > publisher will pay based on an hourly rate. Since this is my first full > > index, it will take me appreciably longer than an experienced indexer. Also, > > I shall take my time over it to make sure that it is as good as I can make > > it. That leaves me with the problem of negotiating a price. If I billed > > based on the number of hours I take, I'm sure the publisher will have a > > heart-attack! > > > > The book I am to index is 230 pages long, and is a work of academic > > political and social history. The book will be read, and the index used, > > mainly by academics. > > > > Can any experienced indexers give me a rough idea of how long such an index > > should take to complete? > > > > I know it's difficult, but I would appreciate any help you can give. > > > > Michael Tombs > > Michael.Tombs@tesco.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:49:41 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: poll time I would like to do an informal survey. Please don't blast me about how inaccurate informal surveys like this are. I'm just curious as to rates that are being asked out there, and I think we could all learn from this. I'm curious as to how many are charging as little as $1.75/page for indexing of technical books (ones that tend to be a bit easier because of the highly organized structure of the text). What I thought we could do is have as many as are interested e-mail me (broccoli@bim.net) with the amount you would charge per page (*only* per page please) for a fairly simple technical book. I know there are so many variables, I'm just talking a rough estimate. You may also give your rationale for the amount you would charge. I give me word that I will not give names or otherwise "tell on you" for how little or how much you are charging. Later, I will summarize the findings for the list in this way: x amount= $1.75/pg x amount= $2.00/pg x amount= $3.00/pg, etc, etc. Anyone game? -Kevin Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: poll #2- embedded indexing One more poll: I'd like to see how much extra time you feel it takes you to do an embedded index (in FrameMaker preferably, or Word if you please) in comparison to an index in, say, Macrex, Cindex, or Sky. 2x as long? 50% longer? same? This one we can just reply to on-list, I believe...unless you're shy :-) -Kevin Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:07:17 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Conroy Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" I guess I started the birds a'twittering in the indexing tree...and I'm sorry! I absolutely did NOT mean that attractive logos, appropriately integrated into one's business persona, are a Bad Thing. And I suppose I should have defined "cutsie" (sorta like good art...you know it when you see it). When I wear one of my other hats, I am a graphic designer. I really do understand the importance of a well-developed identity package...including an appropriate logo. I guess I have been suffering too much "sensory overload" lately, looking at work by people who just discovered font packages and clip art...and can't bear to NOT use each and every goody therein. Anyway, I'm sorry if in any way my comments were construed as criticism where none is warranted. Sonsie sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" Sonsie makes some good points, I think, below. Get your logo hand-designed unless you can find an ultra-unique piece of clip-art from some rare source. Can you tell I'm sick today and don't feel like doing much else but ranting about little things? -kb -----Original Message----- From: Sonsie Conroy To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 6:13 PM Subject: Re: rates + "cutesy logos" >I guess I started the birds a'twittering in the indexing tree...and I'm >sorry! I absolutely did NOT mean that attractive logos, appropriately >integrated into one's business persona, are a Bad Thing. And I suppose I >should have defined "cutsie" (sorta like good art...you know it when you see >it). > >When I wear one of my other hats, I am a graphic designer. I really do >understand the importance of a well-developed identity package...including >an appropriate logo. I guess I have been suffering too much "sensory >overload" lately, looking at work by people who just discovered font >packages and clip art...and can't bear to NOT use each and every goody therein. > >Anyway, I'm sorry if in any way my comments were construed as criticism >where none is warranted. > > Sonsie > sconroy@slonet.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:37:45 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Advice Sought Carol, I wholeheartedly agree about nudging the average up to $4.00!! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:41:47 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Scholarly rates Lillian, I think there are some major discrepancies between what some publishers are paying. . . a lot depends on how you define the average book, also. What I consider average (from what I see) may not be a very accurate picture of the field. All this is interesting. But $1.35/page is definitely not a good rate. I'm sure we can all agree on that! Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:50:52 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Advice Sought-what is the question? Ann, I agree completely, and I think (hope) that was what I was advocating: that Michael bill for a fixed amount no matter how long it actually takes him to index the book. The client doesn't really care how long it takes, the client just wants a fair price. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michelle Bond Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE I AM TRYING TO UNSUBSCRIBE, AND KEEP GETTING REFUSED. cAN THE LIST MANAGER PLEASE RESPOND TO LET ME KNOW THE PROPER PROCEDURE, (IF I AM DOING IT WRONG!!!!!) Michelle Bond Librarian International Seabed Authority 14-20 Port Royal Street Kingston JAMAICA Tel: (876) 92-29105 Fax: (876) 92-20195 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:42:50 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Karen Field Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing I have a thought on this. Let me preface this by saying that I've done embedded indexing for technical manuals for several years using Word and FrameMaker, and I'm just learning indexing with Sky. INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent program. But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex do automatically--that takes longer. Other thoughts? Karen > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Broccoli [SMTP:brocindx@IN4WEB.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 14:52 > To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L > Subject: poll #2- embedded indexing > > One more poll: > > I'd like to see how much extra time you feel it takes you to do an > embedded > index (in FrameMaker preferably, or Word if you please) in comparison to > an > index in, say, Macrex, Cindex, or Sky. 2x as long? 50% longer? same? > > This one we can just reply to on-list, I believe...unless you're shy :-) > > -Kevin Broccoli ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:34:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Abbott Subject: today's messages Aarrgh! My @#$%^ computer froze up on me and I lost almost all of today's e-mail. Is it possible that someone has the messages and could send them to me (or this impossible)? Or might the Digest, with which I have yet to get acquainted, be able to help. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:19:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199906231944.rn2sa7.78m.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 04:42 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: > >INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent program. >But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word >alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded >indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex do >automatically--that takes longer. When you edit the compiled index, do you also edit the associated tags? I find (and Nancy Mulvany reports) that embedded indexing takes about twice as long as using a standalone package. In every case where I've heard that embedding was as fast or faster, the indexer involved was not updating the tags, just editing the compiled index. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Clendenen Subject: Re: Scholarly rates In-Reply-To: <199906231909.OAA05165@mailgw.flash.net> I can get $3.50 per page from most university presses, but I'm still working on a small local one, where the author's pay directly and many of them aren't even professor's with grants, but retirees writing their one and only book. Still, the books are often very dense historical works of regional significance. I've gotten them up to $3.25, so I'm getting there. $3.00 per page for dense material with 10-20 entries per page is too little in my opinion. Your hourly rate stays way too low under those circumstances. Joanne AfterWords Indexing Services Joanne E. Clendenen email: jbclend@bigfoot.com 281-469-4461 http://www.flash.net/~jbclend ---------------- "A good book is the precious lifeblood of a master spirit, embalmed and treasured up on purpose to a life beyond life." John Milton -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu] On Behalf Of Avital Pinnick Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 2:02 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: Scholarly rates >The last actual index I completed (the one for Brill) contained a lot of >German phrasing. I received $3.00 a page for that one and considered myself >lucky. (Still waiting to get paid, though) Anything over $3.50 a page is Lillian, If Brill takes an inordinately long time to pay you, I'd appreciate it if you could let me know. Pim once suggested hiring me to do some editing but I'm wary of working for companies abroad, that may take advantage of free-lancers. Given how they treat their regular staff, I wouldn't expect them to treat the free-lancers with kid gloves. Hmmmm.... that reminds me that Pim told me that he once shouted at his senior desk editor until the man was cowering (actually he was afraid that Pim was going to hit him), while the new CEO was being given a tour of the offices. The senior desk editor (now in another division) had intended to screw the free-lance copyeditors on taxes and Pim, who works closely with the free-lancers, was upset. So I guess that story is relevant. Hope you get paid eventually. cheers, Avital ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Gabriel Subject: How to Receive the Digest Version of INDEX-L On 22 Jun 1999, Julie Sherman Grayson asked the following question: --------------- >I've tried all ways 'till Sunday to instruct the list server to send >my Index-L subscription in digest form - I've even followed the >instructions from the reference card - any suggestions? --------------- Hi Julie, To receive the digest version of INDEX-L took two steps, at least for me: 1. I subscribed to the list with this command: SUBSCRIBE INDEX-L Jean Gabriel After I received confirmation that I was a list member, I then sent a second message containing the SET command to switch to the digest version. (Somewhere in my initial attempts to subscribe in digest form, I received these instructions: "A confirmation request is being mailed to you. Please wait until it arrives before sending any SET command, or any other command that requires you to be subscribed to the list, as you have not yet been added to the list.") 2. After you're a member of the list, send this message: SET INDEX-L DIGESTS (No need to include your name with the SET command, since by then the list "knows" who you are.) Be sure to send the SUBSCRIBE and SET commands to LISTSERV@BINGVMB.BITNET (or LISTSERV@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU). Hope these instructions work for you. Jean Gabriel (jean@gabe.org) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:24:22 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Owens Subject: Re: Indexing of figures Dear All I wonder if I could ask for advice again. I am indexing a book that contains a lot of figures. The editor says she wants me to indicate figures by the use of (f) after locations. However she was not at all clear what I should do where text on the subject appears on the same page(s) as the figure(s). My suggestion was that in this case we should just not use italics because it would become too complicated to indicate both text and figures. We would end up with entries like this glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f) On second thoughts I am not sure if this is how I should do it. I rarely index books with any figures, so I would very much appreciate finding out how others deal with these. Many thanks Richard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:23:31 +0100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Holmes Subject: Re: Indexing of figures Hello Richard I frequently index books (scientific and technical) that contain many figures and tables, and where both need to be referenced in the index. Your example: >glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f) is exactly how I would indicate that a page range covers a subject in the text and also includes figures. If there were also tables (t), I would have: glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f), 10(t), 11(t) although I normally use italics to indicate figures and bold to denote tables (stating this in an introductory statement at the beginning of the index). All the best John ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:45:35 -0400 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Re: Indexing of figures Morning all! I have also used John's method of italicized locators for figures and other illustrations (including photographs, technical drawings, and graphs), and bolded page numbers for tables. If I used an italicized '9f' for a figure or bolded 13t for a table, I would generally omit the parentheses, unless the editor requested otherwise. Joanne ======== > Your example: > > >glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f) > > is exactly how I would indicate that a page range covers a subject in the > text and also includes figures. > > If there were also tables (t), I would have: > > glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f), 10(t), 11(t) > > although I normally use italics to indicate figures and bold to denote > tables (stating this in an introductory statement at the beginning of the > index). > > > All the best > > John > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:18:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: professional development workshops Hi, folks. For those of you in ASI chapters in the U.S., I'd like to announce that I am now available to present professional development workshops to your chapter. (Talk about shameless self-promotion!) I have given presentations (at ASI conferences) on the following two topics, both of which have been well received: 1. Marketing for the Shy: Alternatives to Cold Calling 2. How and What to Negotiate with Clients Many chapters try to have at least one workshop a year; they can not only provide valuable information to your existing members but also bring in new members, as well as income for your chapter. Official ASI chapters can apply for funding from ASI to help cover the costs of bringing in speakers. The deadline for applying for ASI funds (for a speaker within the coming fiscal year) is coming up fast: July 15. If you'd like more information about my workshops or about applying for funds, please reply off-list to indexer@execpc.com. Cheers, Carol Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:34:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joy Thomas Subject: Re: Indexing of figures In regard to
  
glaciers 9-11, 9(f), 10(f)
I indexed one book with numerous figures where I did exactly what Richard proposes.  It did look peculiar, but my reasoning was that to omit either was misleading.  You want your reader to start reading on page 9.  If you just put p 11 to avoid duplication, a reader who isn't interested in figures would start there.
 

--
Joy Thomas
Social Sciences Librarian
California State University, Long Beach
562 985-7817
  ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:02:19 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: JOB OP from Copyediting-L *************************************************************************= ****** The ACS is considering hiring a freelance indexer to create a keyword index to about 32 Mbytes of cancer-related information in about 2 = thousand online documents. Freelancer must be willing to travel (at our expense) to Austin, TX for a day or two of training, but will do the actual indexing at home on their own machine, accessing the docs via Internet = (or we'll provide them on disk). There may be a second pass to refine the index once we get a look at the first pass. We're looking for someone creative and willing to learn, with experience indexing and/or abstracting medical texts, who can also relate medical concepts to laypersons' terminology. This is a one-time job. Contact me via e-mail at fwelden@cancer.org. Please state your expected rate of pay and give a reference or two that can be checked. *************************************************************************= ****** Elaine R. Firestone, ELS elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:07:13 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: OT: fax problems I've just lent my old fax machine to my dad, and he's having problems getting it to dial long-distance numbers. Anyone know what might have caused this? The correct number appears on the display, but the operator message comes on saying "This call cannot go through." Dad thinks the machine is broken, but I think it must be set up incorrectly somehow -- I can't imagine a mechanical failure that would cause such a result. Helen Schinske HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:19:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: OT: fax problems Helen, My guess is that either your number or your dad's requires or doesn't require dialing a prefix, so you might check the default settings. In my experience, it isn't always straightforward to figure out what those are! But your problem definitely sounds like something in your dialup, not something wrong with the machine. Not that I'm an expert, but I think I experienced this problem myself at some point way back when. Barbara ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:02:52 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christina Traynor Subject: using dotted leaders Help! I've worked for a software company for approximately 10 months now and, once again, I find myself debating simple style issues I thought had been established long before I joined the organization. I'm a technical writer and indexer and yes folks, I hate dotted leaders in indexes. I apply simple straight forward heading/subheading style followed by a comma and page number or range. Now to make a long story even longer, the people I find myself debating with have no formal tech writing or indexing training and limited practical experience, (they had never heard of the Chicago Manual of style for example...!) but up until recently have been the decision makers where documentation style issues are concerned. As a result, what ended up evolving was a shell of a style guide based more on personal preferences rather than established standards and/or styles. Now that some seasoned writers and editors have been brought on board it's been a bit of a battle. We're not fanatics about established standards and believe in an organization creating its own professional image, however, there's some level of professionalism that should be maintained. (told you it was a long story!!) So, everyone out there with an opinion about the use of dotted leaders in indexes (preferably in my favour Hee Hee!) please reply directly to me. I need some basis for my argument and my opinion and experience alone doesn't look like it will be enough. thanks in advance Christina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:22:32 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: inhouse job op Make sure to respond directly to the company, and not to me or Index-L: O'Reilly Employment Opportunities: Indexer O'Reilly & Associates is a leading publisher of books, software, and Internet-based services with offices in Sebastopol, CA; Cambridge, MA; Tokyo, Japan; Paris, France; and Koln, Germany. Currently we have an opening for an INDEXER in the Production Department of our Cambridge office. This full-time position is responsible for creating imbedded-tag indexes in FrameMaker and possibly other formats. The successful candidate will have at least two years prior experience as an Indexer, strong communication and conceptual skills as well as in-depth knowledge of FrameMaker. Strong attention to detail is a must. Unix skills would be useful, but are not required. Duties include, but are not limited to, the following: Create indexes Mark-up hard copy Insert index tags in files Generate indexes from completed files Editing and revising indexing standards O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. is an equal opportunity employer. We offer competitive wages and a complete benefits package including vision, dental and 401K. If you possess the qualifications we seek and are interested in applying for this position, please email, fax or mail your resume with a cover letter specifying the above job opening to: Jobs at O'Reilly O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. 101 Morris Street, Sebastopol CA 95472 Fax: 707-829-9610 Email: jobs@oreilly.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing I was surprised how many people at the Indy conference (speakers as well as indexers) reported that they DON'T edit the embedded tags, rather they edit the compiled index as a free-standing document and that's it. Anne ------------ Anne Day, Indexer Specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------------- Richard Evans wrote: > At 04:42 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: > > > >INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent program. > >But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word > >alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded > >indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex do > >automatically--that takes longer. > > When you edit the compiled index, do you also edit the associated tags? > > I find (and Nancy Mulvany reports) that embedded indexing takes about twice > as long as using a standalone package. In every case where I've heard that > embedding was as fast or faster, the indexer involved was not updating the > tags, just editing the compiled index. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:46:40 -0400 Reply-To: Kevin Broccoli Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Broccoli Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing That surprised me also. In fact, I thought I was understanding them wrong. Who else out there works under such an agreement? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of embedded indexing? -kb -----Original Message----- From: Anne Day To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing >I was surprised how many people at the Indy conference (speakers as well as >indexers) reported that they DON'T edit the embedded tags, rather they edit >the compiled index as a free-standing document and that's it. > >Anne > >------------ >Anne Day, Indexer >Specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics >ConTEXT Communications >Holland, Pennsylvania >contextcomm@worldnet.att.net > >------------------------------------- > >Richard Evans wrote: > >> At 04:42 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent program. >> >But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word >> >alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded >> >indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex do >> >automatically--that takes longer. >> >> When you edit the compiled index, do you also edit the associated tags? >> >> I find (and Nancy Mulvany reports) that embedded indexing takes about twice >> as long as using a standalone package. In every case where I've heard that >> embedding was as fast or faster, the indexer involved was not updating the >> tags, just editing the compiled index. >> >> Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:52:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199906241945.rn5gpd.9fp.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> I'm always surprised by this... Usually my clients want embedded indexing so that they can translate the piece, or update it late, and want the index codes to be perfect. I would sure make a policy of warning the client if I edited just the compiled index and not the codes themselves... Jan Wright At 07:46 PM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >That surprised me also. In fact, I thought I was understanding them wrong. >Who else out there works under such an agreement? Doesn't that defeat the >purpose of embedded indexing? > >-kb > >-----Original Message----- >From: Anne Day >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:31 PM >Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing > > >>I was surprised how many people at the Indy conference (speakers as well as >>indexers) reported that they DON'T edit the embedded tags, rather they edit >>the compiled index as a free-standing document and that's it. >> >>Anne >> >>------------ >>Anne Day, Indexer >>Specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics >>ConTEXT Communications >>Holland, Pennsylvania >>contextcomm@worldnet.att.net >> >>------------------------------------- >> >>Richard Evans wrote: >> >>> At 04:42 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >>> > >>> >INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent >program. >>> >But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word >>> >alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded >>> >indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex >do >>> >automatically--that takes longer. >>> >>> When you edit the compiled index, do you also edit the associated tags? >>> >>> I find (and Nancy Mulvany reports) that embedded indexing takes about >twice >>> as long as using a standalone package. In every case where I've heard >that >>> embedding was as fast or faster, the indexer involved was not updating >the >>> tags, just editing the compiled index. >>> >>> Dick =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 18:58:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Nelsen Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing I think that you're assuming that there's only one reason anyone would use embedded indexing. If the purpose is to be able to reuse the embedded codes over and over without having to do anything but compile and publish the index without an edit, then obviously you'd need to edit the tags to achieve that goal. If your purpose is to move indexing up so it's not the last thing that's done and so that you can overlap indexing time with writing, editing, and layout, then editing the compiled index and not the tags will serve that purpose just fine. I think that editing tags versus just editing a compiled index makes all the difference in the world in terms of how much work is involved in a project. I've never had to do it, but just thinking about having to go back in and edit every tag so that the index would compile into a "clean" document makes me shudder. I can see why freelancers would charge twice (or more) their normal rate if they were required to do that. I'd certainly have to double my staff if we had to do that here at Macmillan. Christine Nelsen Macmillan Computer Publishing -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Broccoli at internet Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:46 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L at INTERNET Subject: RE: poll #2- embedded indexing That surprised me also. In fact, I thought I was understanding them wrong. Who else out there works under such an agreement? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of embedded indexing? -kb -----Original Message----- From: Anne Day To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:31 PM Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing >I was surprised how many people at the Indy conference (speakers as well as >indexers) reported that they DON'T edit the embedded tags, rather they edit >the compiled index as a free-standing document and that's it. > >Anne > >------------ >Anne Day, Indexer >Specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics >ConTEXT Communications >Holland, Pennsylvania >contextcomm@worldnet.att.net > >------------------------------------- > >Richard Evans wrote: > >> At 04:42 PM 6/23/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >INHO, embedded indexing takes LESS time that using an independent program. >> >But there are the other problems, esp. with Word, since (I believe) Word >> >alphabetizes only W/W, not L/L. Maybe it's the "tweaking" of an embedded >> >indexing--trying to get the program to do what Sky or Cindex or Macrex do >> >automatically--that takes longer. >> >> When you edit the compiled index, do you also edit the associated tags? >> >> I find (and Nancy Mulvany reports) that embedded indexing takes about twice >> as long as using a standalone package. In every case where I've heard that >> embedding was as fast or faster, the indexer involved was not updating the >> tags, just editing the compiled index. >> >> Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:59:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199906241945.rn5gpm.bek.37kbi16@mx8.mindspring.com> At 07:46 PM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >That surprised me also. In fact, I thought I was understanding them wrong. >Who else out there works under such an agreement? Doesn't that defeat the >purpose of embedded indexing? I thought so too, but apparently there is a reason for embedded indexing that was never apparent to me: The publishers can index each chapter as it is written, then at the end of the book just compile and edit the consolidated index. As a freelancer, I would find it difficult to work this way, but if you are on staff and always work this way I guess you get used to it. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing Christine Nelsen wrote: > > ... just thinking about having to go back in and edit every > tag so that the index would compile into a "clean" document > makes me shudder. Yet, in any environment where updates are frequent or changes occur up to the last minute, it is very important that the embedded entries exactly reflect the finished index. I've worked in departments where the *only* changes allowed in a compiled index were pagination adjustments--any other modifications had to be made in the embedded entries, so the changes would be retained in future editions. (In case it isn't clear, I think that's a *good* policy.) --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= N O W A V A I L A B L E ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer 2.1, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:26:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: embedded indexing & the speed at which we work! Jan, Kevin, Anne ...., While I don't do embedded indexing, I'm reading this thread with interest, because it plays into another oft-repeated "motif" that came up in discussions at the Indy conference -- and that is the increasing speed at which indexers are having to work. The technological improvements in our industry seem to be driving the pace faster and faster ...... and the only way to keep clients happy is for us freelancers to work faster and faster. Indeed -- why edit the tags if the index is the product? Just edit the index. That's the way to get the index the way you want it, quickly. Of course, if the purpose of embedding was to re-use the tags and get the same perfect or near-perfect index the next time around, then you're defeating your purpose by not editing tags. But if speed is what's driving you, then that's an extra step *this* time around. You can always edit the index at the end for the new edition as well. The increasing speed with which we indexers have to turn our products around is becoming a problem to those of us who want to produce high-quality indexes. Of course, we try to work with our clients' deadlines. But ... perhaps we're reaching a point where we're pushing that envelope about as far as it can go. No matter how wonderful the technological advances in the publishing industry, it doesn't take any less time to do the mental/analytical work of reading, text analysis, and index creation. The time to think cannot be shortened beyond a certain point. Are others out there experiencing this crunch too? What say you? Janet Perlman SOUTHWEST INDEXING http://www.marisol.com/southwestindexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:37:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: embedded indexing & the speed at which we work! In-Reply-To: <199906242028.rn5j90.9il.37kbi17@mx9.mindspring.com> I'm finding the time crunch to be a big issue with clients. I have a ton of time-saving tricks I have worked out, and now those are the "norm" and we need it faster. My pet theory about working in software documentation is that what happens is this: The group really needs to get this product out the door fast. Everyone kills themselves to ship this one. Everyone does long hours, burns themselves out, and really push. Good work! Next year, when people are planning their budgets and schedules, they look back to see how long it took last year, and "forget" it was a real crunch, and ask people to repeat it only faster this time. Cause this time, it's a real crunch! At least, that's my theory.... At 08:26 PM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote: >Jan, Kevin, Anne ...., > >While I don't do embedded indexing, I'm reading this thread with interest, >because it plays into another oft-repeated "motif" that came up in >discussions at the Indy conference -- and that is the increasing speed at >which indexers are having to work. The technological improvements in our >industry seem to be driving the pace faster and faster ...... and the only >way to keep clients happy is for us freelancers to work faster and faster. > >Indeed -- why edit the tags if the index is the product? Just edit the >index. That's the way to get the index the way you want it, quickly. Of >course, if the purpose of embedding was to re-use the tags and get the same >perfect or near-perfect index the next time around, then you're defeating >your purpose by not editing tags. But if speed is what's driving you, then >that's an extra step *this* time around. You can always edit the index at >the end for the new edition as well. > >The increasing speed with which we indexers have to turn our products around >is becoming a problem to those of us who want to produce high-quality >indexes. Of course, we try to work with our clients' deadlines. But ... >perhaps we're reaching a point where we're pushing that envelope about as far >as it can go. > >No matter how wonderful the technological advances in the publishing >industry, it doesn't take any less time to do the mental/analytical work of >reading, text analysis, and index creation. The time to think cannot be >shortened beyond a certain point. > >Are others out there experiencing this crunch too? What say you? > >Janet Perlman >SOUTHWEST INDEXING >http://www.marisol.com/southwestindexing =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:04:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Re: working with unpaginated texts In a message dated 99-06-24 20:03:00 EDT, you write: << The publishers can index each chapter as it is written, then at the end of the book just compile and edit the consolidated index. As a freelancer, I would find it difficult to work this way, but if you are on staff and always work this way I guess you get used to it. >> I often work this way using Cindex (the rest probably work the same way). I create codes for each chapter with each chapter starting at page 1 then when the pagination is complete, I can just edit the page numbers by adding the appropriate numbers to the pages. When publishers are working with multiple authors or on textbooks they can get some later chapters finished first. People seem to appreciate the fact that I can manipulate the pages without loosing time. And its not even embedded indexing. Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:20:48 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Timothy Griffin Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing Christine is right. I've been asked to work both ways, and it takes an incredible amount of time to go back and edit index tags. Compiling the index after the tags have been written, and simply editing the index, is the most common procedure I use. Seldom do editors ask that I upload the chapter files back to them, but when that is what they ask me to do, I request that whoever is physically editing the text be very aware of my index tags and not delete them. That way, if there are pagination changes, my tags flow along with the text, and no alterations need to be made. In a case where entire paragraphs are added or deleted, I ask that someone inform me of these alterations and make a note of where they take place. I then simply go and add an entry or alter an existing tag. No one has ever asked that I create and edit only the tags, leaving the compilation process to the publisher. They just want an index. In a message dated 6/25/99 12:02:53 AM, cnelsen@MCP.COM writes: <> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:15:36 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Organization: Focus Information Services Subject: Reasons for embedded indexing This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02A4_01BEBE97.774C97C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are several reasons for embedded indexing -- regardless of the = quality of the tools. (1) The index can be written before pages are final. (2) The index tags can be saved from one edition to the next. (3) Sections of larger sets of documentation can be reused without being = fully re-indexed. (4) Index data can be turned into hyperlinks for PDF and web documents. Because so much documentation is being prepared for the web, that last = one (number 4) is the biggest reason embedded indexing is growing. = However, that indexes don't have to start only after the rest of the = book is finished is an extremely popular reason in companies where time = is the most important factor, such as in software companies (because = time-to-market is the most important consideration). That the tools are insufficient for doing the job "as we're used to" is = an unfortunately state of affairs; however, in the grand scheme of = publishing to win a market, it's a small price to pay for the overall = benefits. It's too bad we're the indexers, I guess. I'm sure there are = people out there who complain when books don't have four-color pages = just because publishers are trying to save money and time. :-) - Seth ------=_NextPart_000_02A4_01BEBE97.774C97C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There are several reasons for embedded indexing -- = regardless=20 of the quality of the tools.

(1) The index can be written before = pages=20 are final.
(2) The index tags can be saved from one edition to the next.
(3) Sections of larger sets of documentation can be reused without = being=20 fully re-indexed.
(4) Index data can be turned into hyperlinks for PDF and web=20 documents.
 
Because so much documentation is being prepared for = the web,=20 that last one (number 4) is the biggest reason embedded indexing is = growing.=20 However, that indexes don't have to start only after the rest of the = book is=20 finished is an extremely popular reason in companies where time is the = most=20 important factor, such as in software companies (because time-to-market = is the=20 most important consideration).
 
That the tools are insufficient for doing the job "as we're used = to" is an=20 unfortunately state of affairs; however, in the grand scheme of = publishing to=20 win a market, it's a small price to pay for the overall benefits. It's = too bad=20 we're the indexers, I guess. I'm sure there are people out there who = complain=20 when books don't have four-color pages just because publishers are = trying to=20 save money and time. :-)
 
- Seth
------=_NextPart_000_02A4_01BEBE97.774C97C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:44:37 -0400 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: working with unpaginated texts Sharon Hughes wrote: > In a message dated 99-06-24 20:03:00 EDT, Richard Evans wrote: > > << The publishers can index each chapter as it is written, then at the end of > the book just compile and edit the consolidated index. > As a freelancer, I would find it difficult to work this way, but if you are > on staff and always work this way I guess you get used to it. >> > > I often work this way using Cindex (the rest probably work the same way). > I create codes for each chapter with each chapter starting at page 1 then > when the pagination is complete, I can just edit the page numbers by adding > the appropriate numbers to the pages. When publishers are working with > multiple authors or on textbooks they can get some later chapters finished > first. People seem to appreciate the fact that I can manipulate the pages > without loosing time. And its not even embedded indexing. > Sharon Hughes Sharon and all, I think what Dick Evans meant was that with embedded indexing, the indexer can begin indexing in the word-processing files, even *before* the typesetter gets hold of the manuscript. This isn't possible with a stand-alone indexing program that depends on the input of locators. One of the Indy conference speakers from Macmillan explained, if I recall correctly, that the flow for each chapter goes somewhat like so: author --> editor --> copyeditor --> *indexer* --> layout/production, etc. The embedded tags get imported with the text into the DTP program as it's laid out. So it's not just a matter of not knowing which page a typeset chapter will begin on, but rather, not even knowing where pages will break. Embedded indexing makes this possible and keeps the indexer from bearing the brunt of the last-minute deadline crunch, since indexing is no longer the last step. I think the Macmillan speaker said the indexer gets to edit the final index, but that the tags themselves aren't changed. They use embedded indexing to facilitate overall workflow, not with the intent of recycling the index in later editions or other media. Just thought I'd clarify this, since I've just come to understand the difference myself. Anne ------------- Anne Day Indexer specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:51:20 -0400 Reply-To: contextcomm@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing Timothy Griffin wrote: > Seldom do editors ask that I upload the chapter files > back to them, but when that is what they ask me to do, I request that whoever > is physically editing the text be very aware of my index tags and not delete > them. That way, if there are pagination changes, my tags flow along with the > text, and no alterations need to be made. Hmmm, yet another twist. Why embed entries into files that aren't ever going back to the publisher? This falls outside of both scenarios we've identified: 1) indexer's work preceding the typesetter's, and 2) wanting to reuse the embedded tags to create an index for a revised edition or other media. I'm curious. Timothy, would you explain? Anne -- Anne Day Indexer specializing in Environmental and Plant Science topics ConTEXT Communications Holland, Pennsylvania contextcomm@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:07:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Paula C. Durbin-Westby" Subject: Re: Reasons for embedded indexing I've been curious about this for awhile but my computer skills were so minimal it wasn't worth asking. They're a bit better now, so here goes: I know absolutely nothing about embedded indexing or indexing the Web. What do you recommend in the way of educating oneself about embedded indexing? I imagine embedded indexing is the main area and that indexing Web material follows from that. I have Microsoft Word 97 and CINDEX and not much else in the way of software. I'd like to get my hands on some web sites and search engines and make the world a better place to live (eventually, after much study!) If this is tedious beyond belief for those who already index electronically, you can respond off-list. Paula Durbin-Westby dwindex@louisa.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:07:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: new e-mail address Hi y'all. It's just been brought to my attention that my old e-mail address appears in the ASI conference listing. My current address is indexer@execpc.com, if you need it. If you've sent me anything to the mixcom address, please resend it; it will not automatically be forwarded, dang it. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:39:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: professional development workshops (P.S.) In-Reply-To: <199906250405.XAA10110@a.mx.execpc.com> Regarding my earlier announcement, please contact Kate Mertes directly (and off-list) to apply for ASI funding for professional development workshops. Her e-mail address is Kate.Mertes@riag.com. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:55:51 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Timothy Griffin Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing In a message dated 6/25/99 3:56:07 AM, contextcomm@worldnet.att.net writes: << Hmmm, yet another twist. Why embed entries into files that aren't ever going back to the publisher? This falls outside of both scenarios we've identified: 1) indexer's work preceding the typesetter's, and 2) wanting to reuse the embedded tags to create an index for a revised edition or other media. >> Well, put simply, working with electronic files saves time and resources. I have immediate access to the files via the publisher's FTP site, therefore saving shipping costs, and allowing an extra day to work on each set of chapters where I would normally spend my time waiting for a package to arrive. Also, there is no paper involved. It will never cease to amaze me...that it is possible for me to create an index for an 800 or so page book, and never actually handle a piece of paper until I'm editing the final index. One less tree hacked down, I suppose...and time saved for the poor soul stuck with the task of photocopying pages for the indexer. Bo-ring. This way, the compositor finishes whatever alterations they are working on, they make the chapter available on the FTP site, I download it, and am working minutes after the chapter is ready for me. One less significant advantage is that I am able to store multiple books on Zip disk. PageMaker files for an 800-page book take roughly 60-70 Megs. Since I like to save that stuff, it works out well. I should also note that each publisher sending me PageMaker or FrameMaker files to index has heard this same pitch about saving paper and money and stuff. I've never actually been offered PageMaker files right away (with one exception, but that is a client to whom I was referred by someone who said "He can work in PageMaker"). The clients who I work with seem to like the embedded index advantage. It really saves time in a crunch, and they like that, of course. Anyone else working this way? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Rate for oversized pages? (was first indexing job) Tiny snip from Patricia's post: Patricia H. Gross wrote: > ...and made it preferable to do indexes of only very small > books, but at one point I foolishly agreed to do the index for an 1100-page > encyclopedia of neuroscience. Huge page size, and more than 10 to 15 > entries per page.... How *do* you figure out a page rate for something like this - oversized pages and lots of entries? How do you translate a fee for a "normal" page into a rate for something like this? And, doesn't it tend to come out at a $/page that sets the editor back on his/her heels? How do you explain that although a "standard" rate is, say $5/page, this book will be $8/page, or whatever? Just wondering.... Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:37:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Cohen Subject: Re: Rate for oversized pages? Ann, When I bid on a quarto-sized art book, which is usually double-columned,small-print text and lots of heavy notes (plus usually several foreign languages in the notes), I do try to calculate some page equivalency for figuring the estimate. For example, if I am going to have 20 entries per page, I might call each page the equivalent of 2-3 standard scholarly pages. I don't charge triple the price, but I do try to get double the price, because I don't think it really takes me triple the time, plus I think my indexes tend to be closer to 10 entries a page than the "standard" 5 entries per page. In other words, I try to calculate a per-page rate based on what my time requirements are. If I work on a 6 x 9" book with more than 10 entries a page, I'd want to be sure my per-page rate reflected the density of entries as well. These days, in my written estimates I've taken to specifying the density of entries attached to a per-page price, in case I have to go back and renegotiate once the job arrives. (Usually I can tell from talking about the book in advance what to anticipate, but every once in a while, a job turns out to be much denser than expected. So I like to be prepared for renegotiating right from the start.) I've never had an editor or author balk at the higher price, since they understand where it comes from and why their book isn't "standard." Have I been living a charmed life? (I do love working with my art book editors because they don't balk at the price of a good index, but I'm willing to accept that I just have great clients and that others less sanguine are lurking out there!) Barbara E. Cohen Indianapolis, IN ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:42:32 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: FTP (was Re: poll #2) I like the idea of paperless (and disk-less) indexing. Your system makes sense. Unfortunately, my main client doesn't have an FTP server. Do any of your freelancers maintain your own FTP server, to which clients upload their files and download the final index file when you're done with it? If so, what's involved in setting one up? Anne ---------------------- > In a message dated 6/25/99 3:56:07 AM, contextcomm@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << Hmmm, yet another twist. Why embed entries into files that aren't ever > going > back > to the publisher? This falls outside of both scenarios we've identified: 1) > indexer's work preceding the typesetter's, and 2) wanting to reuse the > embedded > tags to create an index for a revised edition or other media. >> > > Well, put simply, working with electronic files saves time and resources. I > have immediate access to the files via the publisher's FTP site, therefore > saving shipping costs, and allowing an extra day to work on each set of > chapters where I would normally spend my time waiting for a package to > arrive. Also, there is no paper involved. It will never cease to amaze > me...that it is possible for me to create an index for an 800 or so page > book, and never actually handle a piece of paper until I'm editing the final > index. One less tree hacked down, I suppose...and time saved for the poor > soul stuck with the task of photocopying pages for the indexer. Bo-ring. This > way, the compositor finishes whatever alterations they are working on, they > make the chapter available on the FTP site, I download it, and am working > minutes after the chapter is ready for me. > > One less significant advantage is that I am able to store multiple books on > Zip disk. PageMaker files for an 800-page book take roughly 60-70 Megs. Since > I like to save that stuff, it works out well. > > I should also note that each publisher sending me PageMaker or FrameMaker > files to index has heard this same pitch about saving paper and money and > stuff. I've never actually been offered PageMaker files right away (with one > exception, but that is a client to whom I was referred by someone who said > "He can work in PageMaker"). The clients who I work with seem to like the > embedded index advantage. It really saves time in a crunch, and they like > that, of course. > > Anyone else working this way? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:44:48 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Anne Day Subject: FTP question correction Ugh, typos. What I meant to say was: Do any of *you* (not your) freelancers maintain your own FTP servers/sites? Thanks, Anne ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:51:15 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: FTP question correction In-Reply-To: <199906251046.rn75ik.7dd.37kbi3u@mx10.mindspring.com> Often you wind up with free FTP space when you sign up with an internet provider, or even with AOL. Look into your contract with your ISP -- if you have free web space, most likely you have free FTP space as well, and can use that to transfer files. Jan Wright At 02:44 PM 6/25/99 +0000, you wrote: >Ugh, typos. > >What I meant to say was: Do any of *you* (not your) >freelancers maintain your own FTP servers/sites? > >Thanks, >Anne =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Wright Information Indexing Services http://www.wrightinformation.com Jancw@wrightinformation.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:01:12 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: embedded indexing Sorry I'm a bit slow to respond; I get Index-L in digest mode... Kevin Broccoli said: I'd like to see how much extra time you feel it takes you to do an embedded index (in FrameMaker preferably, or Word if you please) in comparison to an index in, say, Macrex, Cindex, or Sky. 2x as long? 50% longer? same? I agree with Nancy Mulvany's estimate that embedded indexes (in Word or FM) "increase the time needed for indexing by two- to threefold when compared with the use of dedicated indexing software tools" (p. 259). But maybe because that's because I **always** edit the embedded entries in the body of the document. My clients don't want the the resulting index file to be edited; they want it to be perfect when they update the index themselves. I always used to feel guilty that it took me longer to write indexes than my colleagues here on Index-l, but I believe that it's because 95% of my work is embedded indexing. When my clients try to write the embedded index themselves and then call me and ask me to take over, they're "amazed that I can do it as fast as I do!" So I guess it's all relative. and Paula Durbin-Westby asks: What do you recommend in the way of educating oneself about embedded indexing? I've written a couple of articles that may be helpful to you: 7 "Embedded Indexing: What is it and how do I do it?" KeyWords, The Newsletter of the American Society of Indexers, Jan/Feb 1998: 14-15. (Describes how to create index entries in MS Word.) 7 "Embedded Indexing in FrameMaker" KeyWords, The Newsletter of the American Society of Indexers, September/October 1998: 1, 6-8. If you don't have these issues of KeyWords and they aren't available at your library, you should be able to get a copy from the ASI office (info@ASIndexing.org). If all else fails, drop me a line and I'll send you a copy of these articles. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 http://www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:37:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin Hilp Subject: Re: poll #2- embedded indexing When I do embedded indexes -- new or updates -- I first work in the index to finish it, then go back and "refit" the codes to match the final index. I should note here that I've done embedded indexes only in situations where I also "owned" the files and could expect to be updating them frequently. Or at least I knew I'd be getting the next revision of the same files back "soon" to update the index. For a new index, that's the following steps: 1. Mark-up the proofs and create the first cut index as a separate document, usually in Excel. 2. Embed the codes. 3. Run the files through the printer driver to find the page breaks, and make all the page breaks "hard". 4. Compile the index. 5. Edit the compiled index as a separate document. 6. (Depending on schedule, publish the entire book at this point.) 7. Edit the embedded codes to match the final index. For updating previously indexed files: 1. Run the updated files through the printer driver and make sure all page breaks are "hard." 2. Edit the codes inline for correct page references. 3. Embed any new codes, if new material has been added. 4-7. Same as above. === RolyBear ICQ 1863181 (Robin Hilp) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:26:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William G Meisheid Subject: Re: embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199906251602.MAA27497@www.honza.com> >I agree with Nancy Mulvany's estimate that embedded indexes (in Word or FM) "increase the time needed for indexing by two- to threefold when compared with the use of dedicated indexing software tools" (p. 259). There are two tools on the horizon that will dramatically change that estimate for Word, Sky Index is going to add Word embedded indexing features to their product and we are releasing a dedicated embedded Word indexing tool later this summer. I can't speak for Sky's tool but ours will allow you to build a Word index almost as fast as you could in Cindex or Macrex, with the added feature of it being embedded as XE fields within the document. Later in the year, our projected Pro version will allow you to index multiple Word documents as a set, while enabling you to work with the indexes either as separate documents or as a combined whole. You will be able to switch back and forth between views as necessary. We will be posting something to the list as the product nears completion. ________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com email: wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathy Paparchontis Subject: legal books Hi All, I don't remember who put up the original message about left over books from ASI. I am interested in the one about legal materials. Thanks, Kathy Paparchontis Kathleen Paparchontis K & D, Indexing and Editorial Services 916-344-3846 916-344-9564 (fax) kpaparchontis@worldnet.att.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:44:54 -0400 Reply-To: kamm@sky-software.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kamm Y. Schreiner" Subject: Re: embedded indexing In-Reply-To: <199906251839.OAA19384@mx03.erols.com> Hi all, I guess this is a good time to chime in about my forthcoming embedded indexing program "Embedder Professional (tm)". As Bill mentioned, both his company (Sageline) and mine are working on embedded indexing programs. Mine will initially be for MS Word only and will give you the majority of the current features of SKY Index(tm) Professional, but will take care of editing the embedded tags for you. The only time Word will be involved will be during data entry (you will need to place the cursor where the embedded tag will go) and, if you intend to let Word generate the index, when you generate the index. The index can also be generated by SKY Index which would provide more flexibility than if Word generates it. Either way, the tags will remain embedded and up-to-date. As the program nears completion, I'll post more information to INDEX-L. Happy Indexing! Kamm Schreiner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Professional Indexing Software for Professional Indexers SKY Software 6016 Oxpen Ct, #303 Alexandria, VA 22315 Email: kamm@sky-software.com Web: http://www.sky-software.com Phone: 800-776-0137 or 703-921-9472 Fax: 703-921-9472 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -----Original Message----- From: Indexer's Discussion Group [mailto:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU]On Behalf Of William G Meisheid Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 2:27 PM To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Re: embedded indexing >I agree with Nancy Mulvany's estimate that embedded indexes (in Word or FM) "increase the time needed for indexing by two- to threefold when compared with the use of dedicated indexing software tools" (p. 259). There are two tools on the horizon that will dramatically change that estimate for Word, Sky Index is going to add Word embedded indexing features to their product and we are releasing a dedicated embedded Word indexing tool later this summer. I can't speak for Sky's tool but ours will allow you to build a Word index almost as fast as you could in Cindex or Macrex, with the added feature of it being embedded as XE fields within the document. Later in the year, our projected Pro version will allow you to index multiple Word documents as a set, while enabling you to work with the indexes either as separate documents or as a combined whole. You will be able to switch back and forth between views as necessary. We will be posting something to the list as the product nears completion. ________________________________________________________ William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" WUGNET/Help Authoring Forum Sysop & Microsoft MVP Certified Baltimore/Washington area RoboHELP Training Sageline Publishing 410.465.2040 Fax: 410.465.1812 http://www.sageline.com email: wgm@sageline.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:48:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Suellen G Kasoff Subject: Re: JOB OP from Copyediting-L Are we talking database indexing here? Suellen On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:02:19 -0400 "Elaine R. Firestone" writes: > >*************************************************************************= >****** > >The ACS is considering hiring a freelance indexer to create a keyword >index to about 32 Mbytes of cancer-related information in about 2 = >thousand >online documents. Freelancer must be willing to travel (at our >expense) >to Austin, TX for a day or two of training, but will do the actual >indexing at home on their own machine, accessing the docs via Internet >= >(or >we'll provide them on disk). There may be a second pass to refine the >index once we get a look at the first pass. > >We're looking for someone creative and willing to learn, with >experience >indexing and/or abstracting medical texts, who can also relate medical >concepts to laypersons' terminology. > >This is a one-time job. > >Contact me via e-mail at fwelden@cancer.org. Please state your >expected >rate of pay and give a reference or two that can be checked. >*************************************************************************= >****** > > > > >Elaine R. Firestone, ELS >elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 19:36:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Abbott Subject: multi-volume work Has anyone had experience with working on periodicals that started almost with Adam (well not exactly)? I am starting on a project involving monthly volumes that started out in the middle of a year with the April issue as vol. I, #1, and following issues continued #2, #3, etc., and was each paginated from 1 to 8. After two years, volume III, still had #1 commencing in April, but the paginationwas changed and ran from 1 to 320 through the full "fiscal" year. This patten was continued for a long time, then the "fiscal" year was changed to calendar year and ran from Jan. to Dec., and pages were again numbered starting with page 1 each month. To top things off, there was a two month period following a format change where there were about 12 pages un-numbered. I suppose my introductory note could mention the un-numbered pages and I could arbitrarily letter them from A to J, but the changes in page numbering have me worried. Any ideas? John A. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: rohrbach@delanet.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Joanne L. Rohrbach" Subject: Old "Keywords" issues I have copies of these 'Keywords' issues, and have found the articles helpful in following the discussion on the embedded indexing thread. Occasionally a post comes along referencing an issue that I don't have. Has ASI considered putting back issues on a CD-ROM which we could purchase? I'd be interested in buying one if the price was reasonable! Joanne ======================= Peg Mauer wrote: > > I've written a couple of articles that may be helpful to you: > > 7 "Embedded Indexing: What is it and how do I do it?" KeyWords, The > Newsletter of the American Society of Indexers, Jan/Feb 1998: 14-15. > (Describes how to create index entries in MS Word.) > > 7 "Embedded Indexing in FrameMaker" KeyWords, The Newsletter of > the American > Society of Indexers, September/October 1998: 1, 6-8. > > If you don't have these issues of KeyWords and they aren't > available at your > library, you should be able to get a copy from the ASI office > (info@ASIndexing.org). If all else fails, drop me a line and I'll > send you a > copy of these articles. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:53:38 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peg Mauer Subject: Re: professional development workshops (Embedded Indexing) Kate Mertes has suggested that I let you know about my availability for professional development workshops too. I am available to speak to ASI chapters on "Embedded Indexing: Tools and Techniques." A brief description follows. Embedded indexing is the process of creating index entries electronically in a document's files. The indexer inserts the index entries as invisible text in the electronic files. Although desktop publishing packages are not the best tools for indexing, they can be used to create effective embedded indexes. For technical documents that will be updated frequently or will go online, indexers can create embedded indexes that will help their audience find information quickly and efficiently. This 1/2 day workshop covers embedded indexing in Microsoft Word and FrameMaker, and includes a demonstration of how you actually create the index entries in Word and FM and produce the index. Chapters get grants from ASI through the PDS program and work out details with speakers directly. In a message dated 99-06-26 00:07:27 EDT, Carol Roberts writes: > please contact Kate Mertes directly (and > off-list) to apply for ASI funding for professional development workshops. > Her e-mail address is Kate.Mertes@riag.com. Peg Mauer phone: (518) 359-8616 Indexing, Technical Writing fax: (518) 359-8235 http://www.asindexing.org <-- What's Indexing? http://www.stc.org/pics/indexing/ <-- Manager of STC Indexing SIG http://members.aol.com/Pmauer <-- See my award-winning web site! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:01:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Arel Lucas Subject: Re: OT: fax problems Problem probably already solved by now, but just in case. We found that our fax had to be properly set up again with the new phone number, including area code, at its home address. It seems they can't send properly until they have their own phone numbers embedded somewhere. Arel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:11:51 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Yves_Fran=E7ois_Jeaurond?= Subject: Re: Speed and Sprezzatura In-Reply-To: <199906250038.UAA25623@mail3.magma.ca> Hi Jan. Thank you for pointing out a dramatic fact about ineffective clients. Have they so little common sense --let alone business sense--that they insist on maiming and killing the goose that lays the golden index? When bad deals come along, better to smile and say no until your tongue bleeds... lest your fingers do, later. As for tricks and craft that speed things up, good magicians never reveal their tricks to... clients. The concept is sprezzatura* --the art of concealing art. As you have so ably pointed out, delivering much before a deadline (whether due to good luck or technique) almost forces a client to take advantage of you. David McLeod, programmer extraordinaire, said it best: "They didn't give me enough time to set up the routines that save time." Good service is one thing; a client's vice for disorganization is another. HTH. Cordially, Yves Jeaurond jingting@magma.ca * Spotted the word in James Sloan Allen's wonderful article: Educating Performers ("the American Scholar", Spring 1992). "Mastering [the various parts of a performance] enables performers to learn new works with assurance and to perform them with the seeming ease that Castiglione extolled in the "Book of the Courtier" as sprezzatura..." (p.206) --------- > I'm finding the time crunch to be a big issue with clients. (...) Jancw= @wrightinformation.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:36:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Question for collective wisdom This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEC091.400346A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I vaguely remember a short discussion of this before, but not the = conclusion. I'm finishing an index on different treatment modes for different = conditions. As the index developed, it made sense to use use = grammatical linking and subdivision of main heading linking in the = sub-headings, as in: Homeopathic remedies for back pain =20 for headache for insomnia substances to avoid and vaccination etc. However, at the end I see some long strings of 40-50 "for _____" that = will be at least an entire column in a printed index - and I wonder if = this isn't going to look pretty odd as well as being tiresome. On the = other hand, without the grammatical structure, at least some of the = entries could be misleading, for example, "Diet -- respiratory problems" = - is that Respiratory problems caused by Diet or a Diet for Respiratory = problems? Has anyone run across issues of so many duplicate connecting words like = "for?" I'm even thinking of e-mailing two versions to the editor because I = won't have a chance to talk to her before I send it off today (yes, why = did I wait till the last minute to worry about this?) Any advice? Charles =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEC091.400346A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I vaguely remember a short = discussion of this=20 before, but not the conclusion.
 
I'm finishing an index on different = treatment=20 modes for different conditions.  As the index developed, it made = sense to=20 use use grammatical linking and subdivision of main heading linking in = the=20 sub-headings, as in:
 
Homeopathic remedies
    for = headache
    for = insomnia
    substances to=20 avoid
    and = vaccination
etc.
 
However, at the end I see some long strings of 40-50 = "for=20 _____" that will be at least an entire column in a printed index - = and I=20 wonder if this isn't going to look pretty odd as well as being = tiresome. =20 On the other hand, without the grammatical structure, at least some of = the=20 entries could be misleading, for example, "Diet -- respiratory=20 problems" - is that Respiratory problems caused by Diet or a Diet = for=20 Respiratory problems?
 
Has anyone run across issues of so many duplicate = connecting=20 words like "for?"
I'm even = thinking of=20 e-mailing two versions to the editor because I won't have a chance to = talk to=20 her before I send it off today (yes, why did I wait till the last minute = to=20 worry about this?)
 
Any advice?
 
Charles
   
   
    =
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEC091.400346A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom Charles, I would drop the "for" wording except where it *is* confusing - unless it is confusing for lots of the entries - in which case I would consider leaving them all in for consistency. If I were using this index I think I would probably assume the conditions listed were those that could be *treated* unless indicated otherwise. Ann Truesdale ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:09:36 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Off topic: Spam comes with the ISP? For those of you that have battled spam: I recently switched my ISP from AOL to earthlink. Over a period of more than four years, I never got any spam on the AOL acct. except for the occasional one that slipped through on an e-mail list. On earthlink, I am getting spam within a month, to the tune of seven since last Monday. The really strange thing is that I set up the earthlink acct. last fall & inactivated it without using it. When I reactivated the account, I found *106 spams* there waiting for me that had accumulated since last September. Earthlink support could not explain why the messages were *there* since the acct. had been closed.... But I went to the trouble of changing my user name on earthlink (a real pain, by the way) and now I am getting spammed again! Now, I have not used this new address to contact *anyone* who I had not contacted on the AOL account. So... it seems to me that earthlink's system is wide open pickings for the spammer's searches for new addresses?? Has anyone had an experience like this with an ISP? It seems weird to me but it is happening. I have complained (twice, by email) to earthlink but have no reply so far. BTW, I am shopping for a new ISP, if anyone has a suggestion - I live in South Carolina. ;-( (Reply to me off-list if you can suggest another ISP.) Ann Truesdale atruesdale@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:54:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Indexing the contents of tables Not to be confused with indexing the table of contents. I find this a lot when indexing computer books. There is a table of system elements and their functions. In many cases, the element is discussed nowhere else in the book. Do I index all the elements in the table? Sometimes it's an easy decision: the table is small, composed of only a half dozen items, so I go ahead and index them. Other times, the tables can run to hundreds of items. In the latter case, I hesitate. Consider a table of VBA functions. There are about 100, ranging from ABS for calculating absolute values to YEAR for extracting the current year from the system date. The simplest index would generate at least three entries for each item, about 300 entries for a three-page span: absolute values, calculating ABS function functions ABS These all seem like useful entries, but I balk at generating 300 entries for a short page span. Thoughts from the collective wisdom? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 12:56:55 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Anderson Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom Thanks, Ann, I think I will have to leave them in, because a number of the sub-headings are truly sub-divisions and not conditions being treated, which could be confusing I guess. Charles -----Original Message----- From: Ann Truesdale To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom >Charles, > >I would drop the "for" wording except where it *is* confusing - unless >it is confusing for lots of the entries - in which case I would consider >leaving them all in for consistency. If I were using this index I think >I would probably assume the conditions listed were those that could be >*treated* unless indicated otherwise. > >Ann Truesdale > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 16:20:41 -0400 Reply-To: "Seth A. Maislin" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Organization: Focus Information Services Subject: Re: Indexing the contents of tables > There is a table of system elements and their functions. In many cases, the element is discussed nowhere else in the book. Do I index all the elements in the table? First, and without argument, I think we can agree that the table should be indexed as a whole. Something like "commands, list of" does the trick. Regarding the table contents, I index them only if there is information there. What qualifies as "information" is subjective. If the functions are explained, even the smallest bit, I think that qualifies. Here's an example with a very small amount of information: max(a,b) maximum value function This function tells you that there are two arguments to the max( ) function, and that they are separated by a comma. It's not a lot, but it's something. Without that information, all you'd have is max( ) maximum value function But there are those people who believe that even this last bit should be indexed. It's a stylist point. If you believe in the exhaustively of indexes (I steal the term mercilessly from Bella Hass Weinberg's talk at the Indianapolis meeting), you would still index this. Why? Because there is going to be a user who thinks, "What's the function I use to get a maximum value? Is it max( ) or maxim( ) or maximum( )? Is it max( ) or MAX( ) or Max( )?" And if you allow for those kinds of questions, then you need to include the information in your index so users can find the answer (which is there). There are probably shortcuts you can take in the index to prevent needing lots of double posting with computer commands. For example, "absolute value" and "maximum value" would appear right next to "abs( )" and "max( )" in the index. Consider combining them: abs( ) (absolute value function) cos( ) (cosine function) max( ) (maximum value function) sin( ) (sine function) That will save you a lot of space. You can also get away with lumping functions together in larger concepts: strings parsing functions numbers functions for manipulating And use cross references. digits. See numbers characters. See strings Finally, there are some functions that themselves are spelled similarly and have a similar function. Consider combining them, too: atan, atan2( ) (inverse tangent functions) inverse tangent functions log( ), log10( ), logE( ) (logarithm functions) tan( ), tan2( ) (tangent functions) - Seth ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:45:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing the contents of tables Richard Evans wrote: > > There is a table of system elements and their functions. > In many cases, the element is discussed nowhere else in the > book. Do I index all the elements in the table? I sure would (at *least* the ones that are discussed nowhere else in the book!) no matter *how* many entries it yielded for a three-page span. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ Try HTML Indexer, the easiest way to create and maintain real back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:39:16 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Math question Given the statement: "The Exp function returns the base of the natural logarithm raised to a power." Is this exponentiation? If not, what? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:52:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David M. Brown" Organization: Brown Inc. Subject: ANN: HTML Indexer 3.0 HTML Indexer now includes output options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes With HTML Indexer 3.0, you can index your HTML files once and create: * A classic back-of-the-book index * An HTML Help index * A JavaHelp index and mapID file ...or any combination, all with a single click. Please take a few minutes to find out about HTML Indexer 3.0 at the URL below. Read the comments from some of our customers. Then download the free demo, run through the tutorial, and see why we're so excited about HTML Indexer 3.0. --David ============================= David M. Brown - Brown Inc. dmbrown@brown-inc.com ============================= A V A I L A B L E N O W ! http://www.html-indexer.com/ HTML Indexer 3.0, still the easiest way to create and maintain back-of-the-book indexes for web sites and other HTML documents. Now including options for HTML Help and JavaHelp indexes, too! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:47:34 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Indexing the contents of tables Is it relevant to suggest that you ask the editor or publisher for the preference here? Several years ago I indexed a book for a professor friend on censorship. Many book titles were mentioned in the text, and the book also had lots of tables including the titles of all those books and more. All of the tables had nice, specific headings. Using my own judgement, I indexed only the headings of those tables and didn't make entries for the books included in them. The author approved of the index, but when it got to the editor of the publishing firm, the proverbial you-know-what hit the fan. She was very angry--all sorts of things were left out--the whole thing would have to be gone over with a fine toothcomb, etc. Author shattered, indexer shattered. When I went through her specific objections, I discovered that they boiled down to my not having indexed all the titles in the tables. I then added them all (it was a lot of work and, being new then, I charged no more) and the book was published. I then made a mental note to always ask in future. I'm pretty sure that most editors I work for--most authors too, for that matter--wouldn't want indexing in that fine detail. But I think that it never hurts to ask: at the least they think you're naive, at the most they think you're showing professionalism, and it saves a problem later. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 Canada phone 506-870-1113 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:59:39 -0300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Noeline Bridge Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom My practice is to include all the prepositions and conjunctions in the first draft of the index. When I edit it, I remove as many as possible, always considering whether their removal will lead to ambiguity in interpretation. When I am in doubt, I leave them in, even if lists of subheadings often begin with the words "for" and "in" (e.g.). If all the subheadings under one heading begin with the same word, I take a long, hard second look, because then that word will probably have to go. If it's mixed with other words of the same sort, it may or may not be deleted depending upon context. It's a tough question, no doubt, and an intriguing one. I find that some indexes I compile end up with lots of prepositions and conjunctions, and others hardly none. My mood or good judgement? By that stage of the index the deadline is looming and there's no time to analyze the matter. But I'd go with clarity and lack of possible confusion any time. Noeline Bridge BRIDGEWORK nbridge@nb.sympatico.ca 295 Highfield Street Moncton, NB E1C 5R4 Canada phone 506-870-1113 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:18:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John and Kara Pekar Subject: Re: Indexing the contents of tables In the social sciences, I frequently find that I must index a great deal of information found in tables. In political history or cultural studies books, tables may include upwards of 6 or 8 separate pieces of information for upwards of 20 or 30 countries. Some of this information may be able to be condensed (combining health and mortality statistics for a given country, for example, or demographics.) But it's not unusual to have a table generate 40 or 50 entries if the book deals with a number of countries (or states.) Kara Pekar Wordsmith Indexing Services jkpekar@crosslink.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:00:15 -0700 Reply-To: writelin@whidbey.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ockey Subject: ASI Pacific Northwest Chapter Summer Meeting It's still not too late to register for the ASI Pacific Northwest Chapter Summer Meeting in Richland, Washington! Late registrations should be sent immediately to: Sherry Smith INDEXING SERVICES 63505 Bridle Lane Bend, OR 97701 Questions? Contact Randl Ockey at writelin@whidbey.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:55:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom In-Reply-To: <199906280406.XAA07003@a.mx.execpc.com> > >Homeopathic remedies > for back pain =20 > for headache > for insomnia > substances to avoid > and vaccination If they're needed for clarity and consistency, I'd leave them in. Above all, an index should be functional, and those words certainly serve a function. If there were something in the book about whether homeopathic remedies are quackery, and index entry like the following might suggest a discussion of remedies for quackery: Homeopathic remedies back pain headache insomnia quackery substances to avoid vaccination Whenever I see long vertical strings like that in one of my indexes, I too am struck by the ugliness of it. But then I remind myself that I'm writing an index not painting a landscape. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My indexer@execpc.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer new Web address to come ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:30:51 +1000 Reply-To: diagonal@hermes.net.au Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne Subject: Re: FTP (was Re: poll #2) In-Reply-To: Anne Day wrote: > Unfortunately, my main client doesn't have an FTP server. > Do any of your freelancers maintain your own FTP server, > to which clients upload their files and download the > final index file when you're done with it? If so, what's > involved in setting one up? Almost any Web site (including a free public one like those at FortuneCity) can be set up as a FTP server. Just give your clients the same account details that your Web host gives you and have them set up an FTP program with a connection to the site. Alternatively, you can upload the files yourself using FTP and give your clients download-only access using a Web page; the HTML of the download link on your page would say something like: Click here to download FILENAME.EXT Contact me if you want more details. Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:41:30 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elliot Linzer Subject: Re: Indexing the contents of tables Dear Dick, Do you have an infinite amount of space for the index? If it was a computer manual, spiral bound, the answer may be yes. But you did say "computer books," not manuals, where you have a real line limit and budget limit. The publisher is not about to open a new signature for an overly-detailed index. Correct? I would query the in-house editor on this issue. Unless I am specifically told to do so, I never index the content of tables. I may pick up the title a dozen times, but I usually do not go through tables line-by-line. | Elliot Linzer | 43-05 Crommelin Street | Flushing, New York 11355 | (718) 353-1261 | elinzer@juno.com P.S. I just read Noeline Bridge's response. Her experience also points in the direction of getting specific instructions from the book's editor. I agree fully. On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:54:03 -0400 Richard Evans writes: > > Not to be confused with indexing the table of contents. > > I find this a lot when indexing computer books. There is a table of system > elements and their functions. In many cases, the element is discussed > nowhere else in the book. Do I index all the elements in the table? > > Sometimes it's an easy decision: the table is small, composed of only a > half dozen items, so I go ahead and index them. Other times, the tables > can run to hundreds of items. In the latter case, I hesitate. > > Consider a table of VBA functions. There are about 100, ranging from ABS > for calculating absolute values to YEAR for extracting the current year > from the system date. > > The simplest index would generate at least three entries for each item, > about 300 entries for a three-page span: > > absolute values, calculating > ABS function > functions > ABS > > These all seem like useful entries, but I balk at generating 300 entries > for a short page span. > > Thoughts from the collective wisdom? > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:19:46 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom Carol Roberts wrote: > > > > >Homeopathic remedies > > for back pain =20 > > for headache > > for insomnia > > substances to avoid > > and vaccination > > If they're needed for clarity and consistency, I'd leave them in. Above > all, an index should be functional, and those words certainly serve a > function. If there were something in the book about whether homeopathic > remedies are quackery, and index entry like the following might suggest a > discussion of remedies for quackery: > > Homeopathic remedies > back pain > headache > insomnia > quackery > substances to avoid > vaccination > Carol and Charles, Your construction here makes me think that one could eliminate "for" in nearly all "treatment" cases, while retaining the use of other modifiers/antecedents for other types of entries, so... Homeopathic remedies back pain headache indigestion from insomnia as quackery substances to avoid and vaccination I think this was Charles's original idea, but he didn't like it? I guess I'm not sure either, but we can look at it anyway. Just a thought./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:28:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Keith McQuay Subject: Cheap FTP Service My former ISP wouldn't let me do FTP so after shopping around I decided on Pair Networks (www.pair.com). $5 per month for 20 M of Internet space to do what you want with pretty much except open a porno site! You have to ask them to set up FTP but there is no added cost. I'm very happy with their service and will stay there forever probably. I did agonize a bit about passwording a directory to make it secure and did figure out how to it eventually. I could dig it up if anyone is interested. Keith McQuay Foreword Indexing Services 613-278-0426 http:\\Foreword.pair.com foreword@bigfoot.com ---------- >From: Jonathan Jermey and Glenda Browne >To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L >Subject: Re: FTP (was Re: poll #2) >Date: Mon, Jun 28, 1999, 3:30 AM > >Anne Day wrote: > >> Unfortunately, my main client doesn't have an FTP server. >> Do any of your freelancers maintain your own FTP server, >> to which clients upload their files and download the >> final index file when you're done with it? If so, what's >> involved in setting one up? > >Almost any Web site (including a free public one like those at FortuneCity) >can be set up as a FTP server. Just give your clients the same account >details that your Web host gives you and have them set up an FTP program >with a connection to the site. Alternatively, you can upload the files >yourself using FTP and give your clients download-only access using a Web >page; the HTML of the download link on your page would say something like: > >Click here to download FILENAME.EXT > >Contact me if you want more details. > >Jonathan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:15 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: bret.wiebe@EXCITE.COM Subject: Re: Math question The base of the natural logarithm is e so my understanding of this statement is that x x Exp = e (I hope that my ASCII math is decipherable) Bret On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:39:16 -0400, Richard Evans wrote: > Given the statement: > > "The Exp function returns the base of the natural logarithm raised to a > power." > > Is this exponentiation? If not, what? > > Dick _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:33:28 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: bret.wiebe@EXCITE.COM Subject: Correction Re: Math question x Oops, that should really be Exp x = e On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:29:15 PDT, bret.wiebe@EXCITE.COM wrote: > The base of the natural logarithm is e so my understanding of this > statement is that > > x x > Exp = e > _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:54:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: Re: Question for collective wisdom At 09:19 AM 6/28/99 +0000, Dan Connolly wrote: >>Carol Roberts wrote: >> >> >You wrote (original post to which Carol responded): >> >Homeopathic remedies >> > for back pain =20 >> > for headache >> > for insomnia >> > substances to avoid >> > and vaccination >> >> If they're needed for clarity and consistency, I'd leave them in. Above >> all, an index should be functional, and those words certainly serve a >> function. If there were something in the book about whether homeopathic >> remedies are quackery, and index entry like the following might suggest a >> discussion of remedies for quackery: >> >> Homeopathic remedies >> back pain >> headache >> insomnia >> quackery >> substances to avoid >> vaccination >> > >Carol and Charles, > >Your construction here makes me think that one could eliminate "for" in nearly >all "treatment" cases, while retaining the use of other modifiers/antecedents >for other types of entries, so... > > Homeopathic remedies > back pain > headache > indigestion from > insomnia > as quackery > substances to avoid > and vaccination > >I think this was Charles's original idea, but he didn't like it? I guess I'm >not sure either, but we can look at it anyway. > >Just a thought./Dan The way these sub-entries are set up now makes me wonder if back pain, headache, and insomnia are side effects from using the remedies or conditions that can be treated with homeopathic remedies. You have "indigestion from," which is clearly a side effect, but by not putting in prepositions for those other three sub-entries, I think there could be some confusion on the reader's part. To be sure, you could assume that the reader might know that the index entry should read "back pain homeopathic remedies," etc., but maybe not. Also, "substances to avoid in" might be smoother. And what about vaccinations: "and" is vague unless there are many entries related to vaccination; if the discussion in the text centers around the interactions of vaccinations with homeopathic remedies, then perhaps "vaccination interactions with" might be useful. Not having seen the text, these are only hypothetical suggestions. Cynthia ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen Bertelsen Indexing and Editorial Services Specialties: Food History, Nutrition and Foods, Cookbooks, Food Writing cbertel@usit.net Web page: http://www.usit.com/cbertel/ "When we no longer have good cooking in the world, we will have no literature, nor high and sharp intelligence, nor friendly gatherings, no social harmony." --Careme ****************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:25:55 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: Re: Cheap FTP Service Keith McQuay wrote: > > > I did agonize a bit about passwording a directory to make it secure and did > figure out how to it eventually. I could dig it up if anyone is interested. > > Keith McQuay > Foreword Indexing Services > 613-278-0426 > http:\\Foreword.pair.com > foreword@bigfoot.com > Keith, I'd be interested in any information you could dig up, although I have not investigated on my own yet. By the way, I went to visit your web site and noticed that your URL had backslashes instead of slashes. You might want to change your sig file in case others go looking and don't spot the problem. An excellent web site! Informative but not full of useless information. A question: On the prices page you give $3.00 as a "starting place" (up or down from there) Is this in Canadian dollars (and, if so, good for you)? I think mentioning that kind of rate gets publishers used to seeing it and getting comfortable with it. I assume that would be around US$4.00?/Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:27:57 +0000 Reply-To: connolly@neca.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dan Connolly Organization: Word For Word Indexing and Editing Services Subject: oops..last post Sorry to bother everyone with that last post, obviously meant to be private./Dan -- ============================= Daniel A. Connolly mailto:connolly@neca.com Word For Word Indexing Services http://www.wfwIndex.necaweb.com Woodstock, CT, USA ============================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:25:34 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Andrea Doria Subject: Re: multi-volume work Charge ALOTTA MONEY!!!!! This is a complicated problem which those of you with library science backgrounds will recognize the bane of serials existence! AD/SD _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:34:00 +0800 Reply-To: Ling Heang Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ling Heang Subject: Howard L Miller Have anyone heard of Howard L Miller who created the Agdex classification scheme as part of his PhD thesis? Regards, Ling Heang Email: HEANGSL@bigfoot.com
    for back = pain