========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:58:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ANDRE DETIENNE Subject: use of "passim" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like to know what the indexers' community thinks about the use of the word "passim" in indexes, especially for a multi-volume periodical index. Very often an author would talk about a given idea or concept here and there in a small group of pages, and the idea would be discussed explicitly on this page and that one, and implicitly on these other ones (I have in mind a philosophical text), and barely or not at all on this middle page and that one. Listing only those pages that do actually contain occurrences of the word(s) does not make much sense, and listing all the pages with a hyphen (e.g. 124-132) is not satisfactory. It seems to me that "124-132 passim" alerts effectively the index reader to the varying intensity of the idea or concept's presence in those pages, and tells him or her that a diagonal reading of those pages may be worthwhile. At the same time, it is quite an economical way of saving space in a very big index. Does anyone have a thought about this or know whether it has been done in other indexes? Thanks for letting me know. Andre De Tienne ADETIENN@INDYCMS.BITNET ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:46:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David R. Chesnutt" Subject: Re: use of "passim" In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:58:59 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Andre.. The Laurens Papers uses passim in exactly the way you describe your intended use. Simple page ranges (129-136) are used only for _continuous_ discussion of a topic/subject; page ranges with passim (129-136 passim) are used for intermittent references to a topic/subject. Whether it's good practice or not, we adopted the policy for the same reasons you suggest--to alert the reader. David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:58:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FINLAY_J@SPCVXA.BITNET Subject: Re: use of "passim" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I would like to know what the indexers' community thinks about the use of >the word "passim" in indexes, especially for a multi-volume periodical index. Passim is a no-no in my neck of the woods. If we can't be specific, we're hardly competent indexers. Even in those dreadful biographies where someone, let's call him Caspar, turns up on every page, in such sentences as "Caspar and I killed Barbara and then ate her slowly" or "I went to have my enema. Caspar came too." It's better to find some rubric to cover all these references, even if Caspar has little significance in the text. It's a matter of how the index *appears* too--an issue hardly addressed here so far--rather than what information it conveys. Too many passims look sloppy and are generally bad for business. Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:59:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charles Faulhaber Subject: Indexing software for journals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Very shortly we are going to have to start working on the index to vols. 25-50 of _Romance Philology_, a journal specializing in the history of the Romance languages and the medieval Romance literatures. Does anyone know of an off-the-shelf package that would be suitable? We'd prefer to stay away from general-purpose DBMS's if someone else has already taken the trouble to to put a package together. I would appreciate it if you would send any replies directly to me rather thant to INDEX-L, since I'm not a subscriber. Thanks, Charles B. Faulhaber Department of Spanish, UC Berkeley CA 94720 bitnet: ked@ucbgarne.bitnet internet: cbf@athena.berkeley.edu telephone: (415) 642-2107 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:15:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "R.S. Etheredge" Subject: Re: Indexing software for journals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Howdee, In response to: Charles B. Faulhaber Department of Spanish, UC Berkeley CA 94720 bitnet: ked@ucbgarne.bitnet internet: cbf@athena.berkeley.edu, who asked about the availability of off-the-shelf applicatioons to aid in the indexing of a prodigious amount of work, I would like to know the answer, also. He asks that replies go to him, but please send hints my way also. Thank you, and have a happy day... Rusty Etheredge Political Science Department Texas A&M University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:17:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Passim ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Passim Many presses discourage the use of "passim" in an index; some presses forbid its use. As has been pointed out, the primary problem with "passim" is its lack of precision. An index is suppose to quickly and efficiently direct readers to a discrete unit of text. Another problem with "passim" is that it means different things to different people. Yes, we all know it means "here and there;" but how much here or there qualifies as a passim reference? One press has very specific guidelines about the use of passim in their indexes. The 1991 style guide for Stanford University Press allows the use of passim in situations where there is "a cluster of references not necessarily on every page but within three pages of one another." The important thing to note here is that the references must be within three pages of one another. This instruction puts some limit on the scatter that is allowed. However, as Andre points out, there are situations where it may be helpful to readers to indicate passing mentions of a topic. After all, indexes exist only for readers, so shouldn't we try to accomodate their needs? One device that we see used is an entry called "mentioned". Often it is located at the end of the subentries in a run-on style index. Unlike passim, this device does not save space because the actual page numbers are listed. However, it is more precise than passim and serves the same purpose as passim. Here's an example: Scotch whiskey: blends, 123-130; distilling of, 145-156, 176-178; distribution of, 234-241; single malts, 257-269; mentioned, 13, 15, 38, 42, 46, 72, 73, 74, 89, 163 -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 09:02:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RHADDEN@USGSRESV.BITNET Subject: Indexing Courses ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have received a notice for an indexing seminar entitled "Indexing for Libraries" presented by AJ Seminars in Rockville, MD. The cost is $130.00, and will be given in Arlington, Virginia on November 12, 1992. Anyone innterested in the course can call them at TEL: (301) 881-4996. Address for snail mial is: 11205 Farmland Drive, Rockville, MD 20852. I haven't taken the course, so I can't recommend it or criticise it. lee hadden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:47:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "G. Earl Walker" Subject: Rates for Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- WARNING -- LONG MESSAGE I'd like to see some further discussion on some of the fundamental reasons why some indexers feel they aren't being paid well enough. What follows are some ideas that I hope will trigger some thoughtful responses. I'm new to the business and some of these ideas may prove to be naive or just plain wrong. I hope that those of you who have been at it a while will offer your points of view. I think the market is pretty inefficient for indexers. That is, in a classic economics sense, I don't think that the problem is that there is too much supply of indexing work or too little demand. We are off the supply-demand curve that should exist. So I think the causes of the low rates come from other factors. I suggest that some of them may be the following: 1. Some indexers are not charging as much as they could or charging what the job is really worth. - The lower amounts they are getting satisfy their needs (e.g., this is an income supplement of some kind which is all they are looking for). - They don't understand the real value of the work they do. - They have a low perception of the value of their own skills. - They are afraid to charge more for fear of losing current or future work. - They don't understand the marketplace, i.e., what publishers are or might be willing to pay and what other indexers are charging. 2. Some publishers are not willing to pay what the job is really worth. - Except in certain areas (e.g., textbooks and certain reference books) people do not tend to consider the quality of an index in buying a book. They become dissatisfied with a poor index (and therefore the book itself) only after purchase when they try to use it. Therefore, the economic value of the index may not be high in the publisher's mind. - Publishers (and probably most indexers, too) don't understand the objective value of a good index. How much is one really worth? How much does it add to the long term profit (or at least sales) of a book? Have there been any objective studies on this? - Many publishers may think that producing an index is simple (e.g., key word extraction and sort). So, they feel indexing work shouldn't be highly paid. - Some publishers may feel that only a bare bones index is all that is needed to complete a given book, not much more than an expanded and sorted table of contents. - Some publishers may feel they can "always" get someone else to do the job more cheaply (see point 1). - There are more women indexers than men, and "women's jobs" have historically been paid less than "men's jobs". (Lot of complex reasons why, but that's another subject). 3. There is no objective way to measure the indexable "denseness" of a text to determine the degree of effort and skill needed to produce a good job. - Different indexers will handle the same text in many different ways. - Different publishers will have differing expectations for indexes from the same text. - There are many gray areas of choice in selecting indexable material from the text, determining numbers of cross references and alternate access points needed, deciding on the "appropriate" length of the index, etc. 4. There is no objective way to measure the quality of the finished product. - Indexes are creative efforts. How do you measure the quality of a book, painting or musical composition? - Few formal (or even informal) critical reviews are done of indexes - Whose views should matter most here anyway? Publisher? Reader? Purchaser? Objective professional? - Well established standards do not exist against which to measure the quality of an index. Could there be, or should there be? 5. There is no objective way to measure the quality of a given indexer. - A publisher dealing with an unfamiliar indexer has little to use to anticipate the quality of work that can be expected. Why pay a premium rate for an uncertain product? - Anyone can call himself an indexer and contract for jobs, whether or not he has had any training or had his work critiqued by someone who knew the field. 6. There is not enough sharing of information about actual rates being charged. - Even if there was, though, the above concerns would greatly reduce the usability of the information. 5. There is no agreement on an acceptable indexing rate. - How much difference should geographical differences (cost of living, etc.) make? - How much should a skilled professional indexer make per hour? Should that differ by skill level? - A given rate per page may translate into an acceptable rate per hour for one person and an unacceptable rate per hour for another. For example, one person may be able to convert $3 per page into an acceptable $40 per hour because of his or her skill level and the depth of index created. For the same job, though, a different person may convert that into an unacceptable $10 per hour because of using lesser developed skills or their preparing a much more complete index. Other questions to consider: - If any of you established indexers tried to raise your rates in the past, what was the result? Did you meet resistance? Lose any business? - Do you feel you are being fairly compensated now for the work you are doing? Why or why not? Some solutions to these issues might include: - Certification of indexers by a professional body such as ASI (a sensitive topic, I'd guess) - Some sort of an apprentice program for new or uncertified indexers - Formal, public reviews of indexes - Objective studies on the value of indexes to sales and reputations and usability of books - Assuming these studies demonstrate objective value, aggressive lobbying of the publishing industry to use only certified indexers or apprentices - A strong drive to give more indexers public credit (or blame?) in the published book - Regular sharing of information about rates being paid Sorry for the length of this. I think this area is ripe for discussion, though. Comments? Earl Walker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:42:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Reply to Earl Walker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to Earl Walker I, for one, appreciate Earl's thoughtful questions and comments. It might interest you to know that the book reviews in the _Philosophical Review_ quite often include comments about the index. As you might expect, that happens more often when the index is bad than when it's good. Carol Roberts PUBS, Cornell =========================================================================