Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:36:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Hill Subject: Re: existing ANSI standard on indexing In-Reply-To: <9211202154.AA14800@nova.Sti.NASA.GOV> from "Rollie Littlewood . . ." at Nov 20, 92 02:14:48 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have just returned from the Coalition for Networked Information meeting near Washington DC and heard Carl Malamud (I apologize if I have his name wrong - I never saw it in print) make an impassioned and well supported argument for having standards available to us online through the Internet. All of us struggle to find them before we can use them. It is a tremendous barrier to their use and that is what we are trying to encourage, isn't it. Even after we find them, we may not be able to afford them. Students, in particular, are often not able to study the real standards, only to read about them. He knows that standards organizations depend on the income provided by selling standards, but points out that there is a major cost involved in printing and distributing the standards which could be avoided, at least partly. He suggests that the standards could be provided in ASCII online with low-resolution graphic representation of the illustrations and that high-resolution copies could continue to be sold; and that the standards organizations can develop other income generating services or raise their dues. He cited the example of the set of Internet standards (RFCs, I think) that are available, easily, through Internet and that are consequently used extensively and in interesting ways. People carry them around with them on their laptops. When a question comes up about what the standards say, a quick search of the text can find the appropriate section and the discussion can proceed WITH the needed information rather than without it. Standards are so hard to put your hands on, that decisions are often made WITHOUT consulting them. A sad state of affairs! The recent discussion here about getting a copy of the existing indexing standard brings the need for better access to standards to our attention. I would like to see some action to bring about access to online copies of the NISO standards in particular. If we need a study to deal with the ramifications of this, let's get started on it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:41:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was cweaver@CARSON.U.WASHINGTON.EDU From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Definition of index "line" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Perhaps I'm unusually dense; but can somebody please give a standard definition for a "line" of indexing? I was recently asked to quote a rate for a job based on cost per line, and haven't the foggiest notion of how to reply! If an entry has a main heading and two levels of subheadings, is that one line or three? What if the same heading/subheading combo has page references from 3 different locations in the document (which each were indexed separately)? Does it make a difference if it's indented or run-in? etc., etc. I can easily calculate rates by the hour, the page, or the job; but lines have me stumped! Carolyn Weaver Univ. Washington Health Sciences Library SB-55 SEattle, Wa. 98195 cweaver@u.washington.edu. voice: (206) 543-3401 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:59:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Embach Subject: Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing In-Reply-To: <9211210010.AA01783@TUblue.pa.utulsa.edu>; from "@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU:INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET" at Nov 20, 92 3:01 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like to comment on issues related to automatic vs. manual indexing from the indexer's point of view and from the database producer environment. Petroleum Abstracts indexes "manually" (that is, individual indexers who are subject specialists do select and assign subject terms). In the sense that most terms assigned also generate "auto-posted" broad subject terms, we also have an element of automatic indexing. However, our databases (TULSA and ERTH) are searchable using ALL words contained in the bibliographic citation, plus the abstract, plus the index words. This production method assures that searchers can find materials they need using assigned or autoposted index terms OR free-text terminology. The manual indexing assures that concepts that are not virtually present in the bibliographic citation or abstract are included in the searchable terminology. The autoposting of broad subject terms from assigned terms assures that specifically related terms are added to the index in an efficient manner. We are considering expanding the use of automatic indexing, but have become aware of several problem areas. Carolyn Embach, Petroleum Abstracts, The University of Tulsa ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 13:23:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kate McCain" Subject: Re: existing ANSI standard on indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 25 Nov 1992 10:36:31 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would like to second Linda Hill's call for access to standards. Indeed, I have kvetched about this very publicly on ASIS-L in the context of making professionally-related copyrighted information available to my students at reasonable cost. My main concern was Wiley wanting to assess copyright charges (for the first time) for distribution of two old articles from our professional society journal (JASIS) as part of the readings for my A&I class -- when ALA & SLA don't charge for reproduction for educational purposes. I naively thought, when I started teaching, that ANSI standards were somehow "govt pubs" and therefore not subject to copyright royalties. I soon found out differently. But how can you teach serials without teaching the NISO standards on serials holding statements (or library automation for that matter) and how can you teach A&I without teaching the current AND new "draft" standards for indexing, thesauri, etc and then there is sci-tech... I really do think that there needs to be some accomodation made for educating the next generation of professionals. I'm not in a position to comment on meeting the needs of information professionals in practice-- you all know more about your situation than I do -- living and working in a setting where I have access to the ANSI/NISO standards in hard copy, the Standards database and ASTM just a mile down the road. But $30 a copy is a lot when you're a student paying high tuition anyway. Kate McCain bibliometrics R us Associate Professor College of Information Studies Drexel University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1992 13:24:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Kidder Subject: Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ----- Begin Included Message ----- From: Carolyn Embach Subject: Re: Susanne Humphrey article on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ....We are considering expanding the use of automatic indexing, but have become aware of several problem areas. Carolyn Embach, Petroleum Abstracts, The University of Tulsa ----- End Included Message ----- Carolyn, I am particularly interested in finding out what tools you are using for your automatic indexing, and also what problem areas you've become aware of. Carolyn Kidder, Cray Research, Inc. =========================================================================