Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:53:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGOODSON@UGA.BITNET Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:39:55 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:39:55 ECT Nancy C. Mulvany said: > Automatic Indexing: The wave of the future? Regarding > efficient access to information, can an algorithm ever > complete with the mind of a human indexer? > I am not an indexer, but was interested in possibly becoming one (freelance). However, I got discouraged when I read somewhere that "most" indexing is now done automatically by computers....Now, I am wondering if that's really true. I am a librarian, had some training in indexing in library school, always have been fascinated by it--and appreciate the value of a well-crafted index. So please tell me, indexers.....are you all overwhelmed with work, or is the pool drying up? Thanks... ............................................................ | Carol Goodson, Coordinator/Off-Campus Library Services | | Ingram Library, WEST GEORGIA COLLEGE | | Carrollton GA 30118 | | Phone: (404) 836-6502 FAX: (404) 836-6626 | | Bitnet: cgoodson@uga Internet: cgoodson@uga.cc.uga.edu| ............................................................ "You only live once: but once is enough if you play it right" --Woody Allen (Interiors) ............................................................ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:55:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: FLANNAGA at OUACCVMB From: Charlotte Skuster ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I have just combined the "automatic" indexing capability with quirky individualism to index 700 pages of my annotated edition of {Paradise Lost} for Macmillan. I did the index as a rank amateur, but I did it in tandem with a very bright and capable representative of my audience, an Honors College student. I tagged thirty pages, gave him the output, we discussed it, then we alternated tagging entries in the rest. The tags were entered in WordPerfect for Windows on that enormous document, but the pages were already heavily tagged with font changes, footnotes, emphases of various sorts. To make a long story short, the hardest parts were getting started tagging, then editing the preliminary index items, then getting the page numbers right from book to book, then editing the first draft of the whole 30+ double-column pages after a format had been established. The index was designed not only to help all readers find proper names but to provide meaningful topics for students to search, and plenty of them. This sort of index had never before been done for Milton. The automatic generation of the index, it turned out, could be made to work only in WP 5.1, because the act of generating crashed WPWIN; the worst nightmare was caused by my being off one number at the beginning of one book, which meant that an indexer at Macmillan had to correct all page numbers after, say, p. 297. Then all her corrections had to be entered in the master document of the index. Any questions or suggestions for the future of indexing major poets? Roy Flannagan (English, Ohio University) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 09:56:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "1.7c Revised List Processor" Subject: Delivery error notice sent to list INDEX-L Received: from qmrelay.mail.cornell.edu by CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:08:42 EDT Date: 27 Jul 92 15:19:42 U From: "Carol Roberts" Subject: Re: Re- Thoughts on Indexing To: INDEX-L%BINGVMB.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu, Reply to: RE>Re: Thoughts on Indexing Reply to Bill Anderson: I recently asked the same question of a professional indexer. She told me that there was almost nothing written on the subject. (Perhaps she meant nothing good.) But she vehemently denounced the indexing section in the Chicago Manual of Style. I, too, would be interested in hearing from you professional indexers. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:02:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FINLAY_J@SPCVXA.BITNET Subject: an indexer's rights ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here's something that interests me, and that seems to relate to some of the other topics being discussed. There was mention of the Supreme Court's Feist ruling on copyrightability; what I think from that reference is that the work of indexers can't be copyrighted. Am I right or wrong? So that leaves us in a position of having no rights? (I have an image of sea of unhappy, overtired-looking people marching on Washington carrying perfectly worded placards...) I work in NYC as a manual indexer. I'm not affiliated to any indexing association. My wages are $10 an hour, and since no tax is taken out I have to declare this on my annual income (it usually comes to a whopping chunk of tax payment). I receive nothing else, apart from the index cards and ABC cards, which are gratis of my employer. Some people in my firm have, through the employer, sometimes been allowed to see rave reviews of the indexes sent back by grateful authors and editors, but otherwise no-one ever says hello, goodbye, kiss my ass or anything else. At the very least I would like to receive a copy of the books I index, or a byline at the beginning("indexed by ____ of_____Company). I think that would be fair. I think also there should be some mechanism in place for evaluating indexers--a letter or form sent back from editors allowing indexers to know the level of satisfaction, and protecting them from the whims of authors. One of the most unpleasant experiences of my life was having to revise my own index for a book that had given me considerable grief--a book on American politics by a well-known commentator which contained an average of eight ideas per SENTENCE. (Things like: "But the race-coded Goldwater conservative tactics, which had won over the Reagan Democrats while effectively silencing the rights revolution agenda, is now being challenged by a revitalized post-liberal PAC-dominated Democratic party with strong electoral ties to the South.") The author felt I had made an index which did not allow him to find the stuff he wanted to find, so I had to go back and rconstruct large parts of it to his satisfaction. Maybe I'll find I actually have no rights as an indexer, but it would be morale-boosting, and probably productive, to find other people out there with similar experiences to my own. Virtually, Jeff Finlay Finlayj@acfcluster.nyu.edu Finlay_j@spcvxa.spc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:03:14 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FINLAY_J@SPCVXA.BITNET Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Hello. As a sub-neophyte, I'm afraid I won't have much to give to this >group at first, but I'd like to tag along anyway. Anybody have advice >for beginners? Are there specific books I should read? When I started indexing my employer (Sydney Cohen) suggested I read "Indexing, the Art of" by someone whose name I've forgotten (good coming from an indexer, huh?). Anyway, I never read it, and began to learn indexing by looking at indexes that other people in his firm had put together. As a way to learn indexing, my money would be on the trial-and-error, practice-makes-competent route, though I'm willing to defer to the information theory people on some counts. So with regard to specific books, you might try indexing some book you're currently reading or are familiar with. That, of course, still leaves you somewhat adrift of knowing whether your index holds up; which is what readers and other indexers are for. Right? 9-) Jeff Finlay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:04:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: STEVE JOHNSON Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: Bill Anderson's query on books to read: three books on my shelf are: Indexing and abstracting: an international bibliography, by Hans Wellisch, ABC-Clio, 1980; Indexing from A to Z, also by Hans Wellisch, H. W. Wilson, 1991; and Indexing in theory and practice by F. W. Lancaster, Graduate School of Library (Science? Studies? Ship?)-University of Illinois, 1991. I haven't actually read the Lancaster volume--I picked it up because (a) it was recent and (b) I found a reviewer's copy at a bargain price... A further qualification: I am a librarian and archivist, not a professional indexer. I have done some indexing, however, and would suggest that the best ways to get started are (a) studying indexes you like and dislike and (b) making one yourself. --Steve Johnson, New York Zoological Society, Bxzoo@Manvax.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:04:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: RHADDEN@USGSRESV.BITNET Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Don't try to index anything on a subject you are not familiar with. If you are very comfortable with 17th cent. English Lit and can't use a can opener or VCR, don't try to index a book on radio telecommunications. Make a thesaursu (spelled correctly, I hope- this system doesn't permist corrections or backspaces) and stick to it- otherwise you will end up with too many terms and phrases. Good luck! lee hadden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:07:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LARSSON@U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Automatic Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Please tell me where I can get additional information about Susanne Humphrey's MedIndEX [package, program, experiment?]. Thanks, Laura Larsson Health Services SC-37 University of Washington Seattle, WA 98195 larsson@u.washington.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:11:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: Bias in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE > Bias in Indexing Carol Roberts brings up what I think is an interesting question, "SHOULD bias be eliminated in an index?" I'd like to make a distinction between bias and an individual's creative input in an index. Yes, I agree that an index should be a custom fit. If I was to give the same text to ten indexers who have a comparable level of indexing experience and expertise, I would get back ten different indexes. And, it is quite possible that all ten indexes would be good, i.e, they would all "work." "Bias" is a loaded term! It is one of the things that we human indexers are criticized for when compared to the dispassionate machine. Hazel Bell has written about bias in indexing in The Indexer -- I can find the citation if anyone would like it. Let me give two examples that I have run into that I would characterize as bias . 1. I know of a situation where an indexer who characterizes herself as a feminist indexed a book and failed to include many names of the men that were discussed in the text. However, all women's names that were mentioned in the text were included in the index. The editor had to go back through the text and get the men's names! 2. A few years ago when I helped to develop a thesaurus for the "AIDS Indexing Project" -- involved the indexing of newspaper articles about AIDS -- some suggested terms were, in my opinion, very biased. The bias ran the gamut from homophobic to radical, radical leftist. Even the ASI-H.W. Wilson Indexing Award criteria has a clause about how an index is not suppose to be a vehicle for an indexer's opinions. On the other hand, the "automatic indexing camp" accuses we humans of constantly making judgment calls when indexing. I think it's fair to say that some of these judgment calls are biased. One reason I brought up this topic is that often indexers are taught to fairly present what is in the text; not to interject one's bias, etc. However, I feel that part of what I am paid to do is to make judgment calls. I think indexers need to admit that we are constantly making judgment calls. We need to take a closer look at our decision process and stop pretending that we are the same as a dispassionate machine! -nancy nmulvany@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:12:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGOODSON@UGA.BITNET Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:39:55 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:39:55 ECT Nancy C. Mulvany said: > Automatic Indexing: The wave of the future? Regarding > efficient access to information, can an algorithm ever > complete with the mind of a human indexer? > I am not an indexer, but was interested in possibly becoming one (freelance). However, I got discouraged when I read somewhere that "most" indexing is now done automatically by computers....Now, I am wondering if that's really true. I am a librarian, had some training in indexing in library school, always have been fascinated by it--and appreciate the value of a well-crafted index. So please tell me, indexers.....are you all overwhelmed with work, or is the pool drying up? Thanks... ............................................................ | Carol Goodson, Coordinator/Off-Campus Library Services | | Ingram Library, WEST GEORGIA COLLEGE | | Carrollton GA 30118 | | Phone: (404) 836-6502 FAX: (404) 836-6626 | | Bitnet: cgoodson@uga Internet: cgoodson@uga.cc.uga.edu| ............................................................ "You only live once: but once is enough if you play it right" --Woody Allen (Interiors) ............................................................ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:21:01 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Reply to Roy Flannagan ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to Roy Flannagan What an ambitious project! I'm an editor at Cornell's Office of Publications Services (I also do freelance copyediting) and did my first electronic index last year. I work on a Mac IIsi and found that you couldn't do the index in MicroSoft Word (which is what we use for our editing stage) because all our work flows into PageMaker before it's actually published, and the tags don't carry over. (Or perhaps I should say we haven't found a way to make them do so.) However, once I got to the pageproof stage in PageMaker, the tagging was a piece of cake, because PageMaker has a simple-to-use indexer that links what it calls "books" (what we would call chapters) of a long document. So I never had the problem you describe of "getting the page numbers right from book to book." What page-layout program does Macmillan use? It ought to be possible at Ohio University to convert your IBM (or clone thereof) stuff to Mac and then to PageMaker or whatever, to give you access to a more powerful indexing program. Of course, that implies doing the indexing at a later stage of production. We got around that problem by highlighting (an "annotating") the hard copy of an earlier stage and waiting until a later stage to actually create the index entries. I'd be VERY interested in hearing from the professional indexers who work with the various presses about what procedures they use. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:21:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: CGOODSON@UGA.BITNET Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:03:14 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Thu, 30 Jul 1992 10:03:14 ECT said: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >>Hello. As a sub-neophyte, I'm afraid I won't have much to give to this >>group at first, but I'd like to tag along anyway. Anybody have advice >>for beginners? Are there specific books I should read? > As a way to learn indexing, my money would be on the >trial-and-error, practice-makes-competent route, though I'm willing >to defer to the information theory people on some counts. > ***I *absolutely* have no way of evaluating this offering, but if anyone is interested, the Graduate School of the USDA (yes, that really is U.S. Dept. of Agriculture!) offers a correspondence course in indexing. I signed up for it a year ago, but haven't had the discipline to complete (or even start it). I just paid for a 1-year extension, though, so I'm determined to do it.... The address is: Correspondence Programs Room 1114, South Agriculture Building 14th St. and Independence Ave. SW Washington DC 20250 (202) 720-7123 --the tuition is $269 and includes all materials (they sent me hardcover eds. of the Chicago Manual of Style and Webster's Standard American Style Manual.) ............................................................ | Carol Goodson, Coordinator/Off-Campus Library Services | | Ingram Library, WEST GEORGIA COLLEGE | | Carrollton GA 30118 | | Phone: (404) 836-6502 FAX: (404) 836-6626 | | Bitnet: cgoodson@uga Internet: cgoodson@uga.cc.uga.edu| ............................................................ "You only live once: but once is enough if you play it right" --Woody Allen (Interiors) ............................................................ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:22:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Bias in Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Bias in Indexing Thanks, Nancy. You've stated the point better than I did. Yes, why SHOULDN'T publishers, authors, and all concerned expect indexers to make judgment calls. Otherwise, why hire a professional in the first place? Which, of course, is not to say that the indexer should necessarily be the final authority; rather, the indexer's professional opinion should carry weight. After all, publishers, et al, expect copyeditors to make judgment calls left, right, and center. Why the discrepancy between how copyeditors and indexers are viewed? (Or have I just been blessed with unusually respectful publishers and authors?) Carol Roberts, Cornell University ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:23:35 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kate McCain" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:03:28 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here are some additional thoughts on what to read -- based on my own prejudices. I should say that I teach A&I and am not a professional indexer. The focus in my class is primarily general principles, vocabulary design, writing abstracts & working with thesauri. We don't have time to do much else in 10 weeks. 1. Yes, the new Lancaster is a good _HALF_ book -- for completeness also look at his Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval (2nd ed). WHY couldn't he put the two together!!! 2. For my money -- the best, most thoughtful general writing on indexing from the more abstract point of view -- design of indexes/indexing systems -- is by Jim Anderson at Rutgers. This will not tell you how to create a BOB index step by step (or even slog by slog). It will give you a framework for thinking about what a good index of any type requires. See: "Essential Decisions in Indexing Systems Design" in Feinberg _Indexing Specialized Formats and Subjects" 1983 p. 1-21 "Indexing Systems: Extensions of the Mind's Organizing Power." in Ruben, BD (ed) _Information & Behavior_ v.1 p. 287-323. 3. If you find yourself building a thesaurus -- the Art & Architecture Thesaurus developed by the Getty & publised by OUP is a thing of beauty and a joy forever!!! Take note of the development of facets and structure w/in facets etc.! 4. Check out articles by Jessica Milstead and Linda Fetters on various kinds of software to support activities under the heading of "indexing." Remember that computers count on their fingers & toes real fast and are good at making lists but may have wierd ideas about what constitutes alphabetical sequencing (software dependent!). Kate McCain "Bibliometrics R Us" College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 BITNET: MCCAINKW@DUVM Internet: mccainkw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:24:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Reply to Jeff Finlay ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to Jeff Finlay I am a copyeditor at Cornell and also do freelance. I've found that it helps to take the stance of a professional and discuss my needs/expectations with the production editor before I begin work on a project. I don't much about the copyrightability issue, but some of the other things you mentioned could probably be handled in that first discussion (when you're discussing money, deadlines, etc.). Good luck! :^) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:27:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "David R. Chesnutt" Subject: Roy Flannagan and Instream Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re Roy Flannagan and Indexing Roy Flannagan's comments on internal tagging of text to create an index struck a chord. Although internal tagging of text to create an index has been available on microcomputers since the early 1980's, I still haven't convinced myself it's the best way to go--though I know that at least one of my colleagues in the historical editing field is using it now (WordPerfect, 5.1--I think). A professional indexer I am not, but I have been involved in "authoring" indexes for about 20 years now. My indexing experience comes as the result of editing {The Papers of Henry Laurens} (University of South Carolina Press, 1967- ), Volume 13 in press. A typical Laurens volume of 600-800 pages has an index of 10,000 to 12,000 page citations. After indexing 2 volumes by the traditional note card method in the early 70's, I turned to the computer for help. The result was a mainframe program called CINDEX, an acronym for Cumulative INDEX though initially the program could handle only single-volume indexes. Our basic approach was simply to eliminate notecards and let the computer do the sorting of the entries and the page references. Initially, we produced a printout which was rekeyed by a typesetter; later, we produced machine-readable files from which the type could be set directly. Still later, a colleague at the Newberry Library in Chicago found the funds to convert the mainframe version into a MS-DOS version known as NLCindex. (Neither program is related to the commercial package known as CINDEX.) In the early 80's, our project had a full-time programmer on board and we gave serious consideration to the question of internally tagging our text for indexing. What stopped us was the fact that we would have no page references until our electronic stream of text had been typeset and laid out in pages. Page breaks are critical because they determine whether the subject/person you are indexing at any particular point goes on one page, two pages, or even a page span. For example, suppose a person is referred to at the beginning of a long paragraph and then again at the end of the paragraph. If that paragraph fell on one page, you would need only one citation to the person; if the paragraph broke between pages, you would need either two distinct page citations or a page-span citation if the person were actually the subject of the whole paragraph. We had already encountered this kind of problem when we indexed one of our volumes from galleys, rather than page proof. When we indexed in galleys, we found that our draft index required an enormous amount of editing. After that experience, we decided that indexing simply had to wait until we had the page proof in hand. Now that low-cost page layout software has begun to come of age, we'll be looking at the indexing capabilities of packages like Aldus PageMaker and Ventura Publisher. Once the text is laid out in those kind of environments, the "pages" are a mirror image of what the final typeset pages will look like. (For our purposes, the "desktop publishing" features of word processing packages are not sophisticated enough to easily handle our typesetting requirements.) Though I'm curious about PageMaker and Ventura, that will have to wait a year or so until we have the next volume ready for production. In the meantime, I'd appreciate any comments from those of you who have used the indexing features of PageMaker or Ventura... or any other "desktop publishing" package for that matter. One final comment. Personally, I think indexing is one of the most rigorous intellectual challenges of the publishing process. "Good" indexes require a tremendous amount of hard work and they take a lot of time to prepare. Those of you who index the work of other people face an even more difficult task than those of us who index our own work--and you certainly should be credited for the work you do. Enough said. David Chesnutt University of South Carolina ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:30:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "R.S. Etheredge" Subject: Re: Reply to Roy Flannagan ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Howdee, Carol Roberts said, " I'd be VERY interested in hearing from the professional indexers who work with the various presses about what procedures they use." Ditto me... Rusty Etheredge ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:31:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "R.S. Etheredge" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Howdee, Kate McCain said, "Yes, the new Lancaster is a good _HALF_ book -- for completeness also look at his Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval (2nd ed). WHY couldn't he put the two together!!!" Alas, my library gives me 218 hits on Lancaster, and 0 on Vocabulary Control for Information Retrieval. So my question is: Who's Lancaster? I also offer said Kate my thanks for her attention to somebody else on this list who is tryin' to make sense out of the information overload, under which I am barraged, daily. Have a happy day... Rusty Etheredge ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:32:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Indexing in PageMaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Indexing in PageMaker In response to David Chesnutt, the PageMaker indexer has a "range option" that allows you to choose a "boundary," for want of a better term. If, for example, you had a reference in one paragraph and the same reference two paragraphs later, you could tell the computer to keep track of that reference for the next two paragraphs, so that if the page break occurred in the middle, you'd get a page range rather than a single page. Alternatively, you could tell it to keep going until it gets to the next 2-head, or whatever. (By the way, it will also cross reference.) So although you have to look at your manuscript and make decisions about where you want to set your boundary, once done you don't have to worry about the page breaks. Does that sound like it would take care of your problem? Alas, what it won't do is treat inclusive numbers according to _Chicago Manual of Style_ preferences. Or does anyone out there know how to persuade it to do that? Carol Roberts, Cornell University 8^) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:49:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kate" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:31:29 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Well gosh -- I though everybody knew ol' Wilf Lancaster!! :-) F.W. Lancaster -- professor Graduate School of Library Science, U Ill. has written extensively (books, articles, reports, etc.) mostly in the general area of information systems design, analysis, evaluation. VC for IR (2nd. ed.) 1986 Information Resources Press, Arlington, VA ISBN 0-87815-053-6 (prob OP and I'm not surprised that SUNY Binghamton ?? doesn't have a copy -- no appropriate professional school. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:31:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "R.S. Etheredge" Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Howdee Kate, Thank you for updating me on who everybody knows. Lest our highbrows get out of hand, down here, I am at Texas A&M University, I don't want SUNY to be upset... Have a happy day... Rusty ps: Notice how levity has a hard time comin' across the network? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:32:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: FLANNAGA at OUACCVMB From: Charlotte Skuster ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to Carol Roberts and David Chesnutt. The reason that the one book was misnumbered and not treated as part of a "master document" under one style sheet by WordPerfect for Windows was that WPWIN crashed when it tried to generate a 700 page master document which included all those codes and all those index items. It all comes back to be in a nightmare. I think I reverted to WP 5.1, I had to assign new page numbers at the beginning of each book, for some reason, and then I could regenerate the index. In the process of renumbering, I missed a page, probably because it was hard to count in one "blank" page without a header for illustrations, one per book, and because each book had to begin on a recto. The process of creating the index was exhausting. I am not sure it would have been easier in Ventura Publisher or Pagemaker. The indexing utility built into WPWIN worked very well: I just gave it too much to remember, ultimately. I am afraid I calculated each entry by when the reference began, rather than marking it to be continued to the next page. If there were another reference to the same name or entity on the next page, then I would carry the pages in sequences (as in "19-22"). The hand work demanded absolute mental focus, on each term, and we had to ask for each entry "Does this make sense?" "Is this useful?" and "Is this duplicated or contradicted elsewhere?" On the question of credit: I fed into the general bias against an indexer with an identity and did not say in my foreword who did the index, though I did credit the student who worked with me. Roy Flannagan, Department of English, Ohio University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:32:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bruce Flanders Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:31:29 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- R.S. Etheredge asked "who is Lancaster." He is, or was, a professor at the University of Illinois graduate library school. I took a class from F. Wilfred Lancaster in 1977 on the "measurement and evaluation of library services." He is a major authority in the world of indexing and bibliographies. Used to work at the CIA, or at least did some consulting for them. I think he has retired this past year or soon plans to. I remember him as an "old school" kind of professor: very distinguished, aloof and authoritative. Bruce Flanders flanders@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:33:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: FINLAY_J@SPCVXA.BITNET Subject: Re: Reply to Jeff Finlay ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I've found that it helps to take the stance of a professional >and discuss my needs/expectations with the production editor >before I begin work on a project. I work as one of about 20 indexers for a NYC firm that takes mainly trade books. Any business communications go through my boss, although I think often it would be great to work more directly with the production editors. I guess I should ask, how many people out there in this group are like myself, working for an indexing firm rather than solitaire? Jeff Finlay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 10:34:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Neil Yerkey Subject: Re: Thoughts on Indexing In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:31:29 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:31:29 ECT R.S. Etheredge said: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Howdee, >Kate McCain said, "Yes, the new Lancaster is a good _HALF_ book -- >for completeness also look at his Vocabulary Control for Information >Retrieval (2nd ed). WHY couldn't he put the two together!!!" >Alas, my library gives me 218 hits on Lancaster, and 0 on Vocabulary >Control for Information Retrieval. So my question is: Who's >Lancaster? WHO'S LANCASTER? You might retrieve a few of the 218 items and find that he is the most cited author in the fields of information retrieval and indexing, and, of course, his papers and books on the paperless society set the stage for what you are doing now.