Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 13:30:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Re: Indexing research needs In-Reply-To: <199304121737.AA12588@lamb.sas.com>; from "Jessica Milstead" at Apr 12, 93 9:52 am ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > What burning issues do you wish indexing researchers would study? Indexing > is an art, not a science -- but would you like there to be empirical rather > than impressionistic (or folkloristic) justification for many of our > conventional practices? > > I'm working on a paper for a Perspectives issues of the Journal of ASIS, on > the needs for research in indexing, and I'd like to hear any ideas on this > issue. > > I have in mind topics such as cognitive processes (how do we decide what a > document is "about"?), vocabulary control (needed? how much?), and > layout/display (arrangement, useful data elements, organization of data). > > Any thoughts are welcome, and contributions will be acknowledged. If I get > feedback via index-l, I will post a summary of responses. > > Jessica Milstead > Jessica, I am a freelance indexer on nights and weekends and a technical writer at a major software company on weekdays. At my "real job," my indexing skills are recognized and appreciated. I am currently interested in two topic areas that may be useful to you. One is usability testing of indexes. We are interested in learning whether our indexes are as usable and user-friendly as we think they are. Other technical writers frequently ask me about usability testing for indexes. The other area is indexing for online documentation. We are putting our reference documentation online, and I am going to be partly responsible for the online indexing. If anyone knows about research that's already been done in these areas, please let me know. Thanks! Joan Stout sasjcs@unx.sas.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1993 16:43:01 ECT Reply-To: "Neva J. Smith" Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Filemaker for Mac In-Reply-To: <9304131409.AA03544@emx.cc.utexas.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Greetings colleagues, And Dear Jean: In the message (included at the end of this message) about Filemaker for the Mac, you mention that 'alphabetisation is automatic.' It is true that there are automatic sorting features in many software applications, especially word processors and basic database programs such as Filemaker. I think it is important to realize that their sorting features are not all alike, and would result in different filing sequences depending on the particular application. Many simply use the ASCII code sequence as their filing system and this may not be in line with the client's wishes. (This could be a problem if you have words with accents or other marks since their ASCII codes come after the uninflected letters, separated by a symbol set.) Of course, the major specialized indexing software tends to give the indexer a choice of several filing sequences which are quite flexible. The bottom line, I think, is that although a particular client may not have a preference for a specific filing system as long as it is reasonable, I think the professional indexer should be aware of the decision which is being made, sometimes by default. There are some long discussions about whether letter-by-letter filing is better or worse than word-by-word filing. In fact Jessica Milstead recently posted a related question to the list. She is the representative to the indexing arrangement standards committee. The posting included a summary of the principal positions in the debate. Perhaps she would re-post the message if there is any interest in a second look at the proposals. (Send me a note if you are interested, and I will ask. My address is below.) With interest & regards- Smith, Neva J. dba DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@emx.cc.utexas.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1993 09:10:34 ECT From: Jean Dartnall To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L Subject: Filemaker for Mac ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The Filemaker program I use on my Mac is version 4, dated 1988. It is marketed by Nashoba Systems. It's just a simple database system and I use a 'record' for each entry as I create them instead of a card or paper slip.There is then relatively little rekeying to do at the editing stages and alphabetisation is automatic. Jean On Tue, 13 Apr 1993, Jean Dartnall wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > The Filemaker program I use on my Mac is version 4, dated 1988. It is > marketed by Nashoba Systems. It's just a simple database system and I use > a 'record' for each entry as I create them instead of a card or paper > slip.There is then relatively little rekeying to do at the editing stages and > alphabetisation is automatic. > Jean ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:50:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Indexing research needs In-Reply-To: <9304151851.AA02161@emx.cc.utexas.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jessica, You did ask for burning issues, so I'm not sure if this qualifies. My question is 'How do users, untrained in information retrieval, look up entries in an index? Word by word? Where do they expect to find entries beginning with a symbol? Where do they start looking for an acronym or initialism? Foreign names or expressions? And, now that much information is in electronic format, how should the concept of 'indexing' be handled? Especially on the networks? It seems that on the networks a tool to point to wanted information could include pointers to related information, either on a broader or narrower level. An expanded, perhaps hyperlinked, information linker-pointer, could be used. One last question: What does a user expect when presented with an index? How do these expectations affect his/her approach to looking things up? Of course, I don't have the answers, only suspicions. With anticipation, Smith, Neva J. dba DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@emx.cc.utexas.edu > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > What burning issues do you wish indexing researchers would study? Indexing > > is an art, not a science -- but would you like there to be empirical rather > > than impressionistic (or folkloristic) justification for many of our > > conventional practices? > > > > I'm working on a paper for a Perspectives issues of the Journal of ASIS, on > > the needs for research in indexing, and I'd like to hear any ideas on this > > issue. > > > > I have in mind topics such as cognitive processes (how do we decide what a > > document is "about"?), vocabulary control (needed? how much?), and > > layout/display (arrangement, useful data elements, organization of data). > > > > Any thoughts are welcome, and contributions will be acknowledged. If I get > > feedback via index-l, I will post a summary of responses. > > > > Jessica Milstead > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:51:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Brian Lee (Library Automation)" Subject: Re: Indexing research needs In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Apr 1993 13:30:39 ECT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The university of georgia, athens, library has a pretty interesting online catalog, in fact several, from an indexers point of view. You could try it and see what you make of a. its commands and capabilities 2. its indexes iii. its help system. It is on the internet and is known as Galin. I cant tell you how t o get here just now, but i shall, later, if you need to know. Some of the non- local catalogs (eg eric ) are passworded. However our main bibliographic catalo g is not, i think. Things change. I feel you will be well rewarded. Can you construct a picture of the indexing? Do most indexers know the marc format at all. Don't you reckon that the time to study cognitive processes has passed & it is time to do some work. We do have stats on command/screen/db usages. If i can help more let me know. I'll answer or redirect the enquiry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 09:48:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Rules for arrangement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Request for reaction: Several weeks ago I posted a message asking for opinions on the need for a U.S. standard for arrangement in indexes, catalogs, etc. I received only one response to that message, and would like to determine if interest is really that low. A summary of my earlier message follows. The committee, chaired by Jim Anderson, which is charged with revising the ANSI/NISO standard for indexes has recommended that NISO develop a standard for arrangement. I am the member of NISO's Standards Development Committee (SDC) responsible for the area of abstracting & indexing, and it falls to me to determine if there is enough interest in the field to warrant such an effort. We presently have several conflicting "standards" in the U.S., such as the ALA and LC filing rules for libraries, and the Chicago Manual of Style (and others) for indexes. Then dictionaries, encyclopedias, phone books, etc., are all filed in yet different ways. In the international arena, there is an ISO standard which is a set of principles (that would be very difficult to understand, let alone apply), plus a technical report which is an example set of rules. The BSI has a filing standard which is a set of rules -- and as such not applicable in all situations. I would much appreciate response as to whether a standard for arrangement is needed. I have concluded that an attempt to legislate a single arrangement for all circumstances would probably be fruitless. We would look for a more flexible way -- if an effort is warranted at all. The NISO/SDC meeting next Monday (April 26) will probably make a tentative decision on this issue. Please reply either directly to me or via the list. Jessica Milstead 76440.2356@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:33:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Rules for arrangement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Request for reaction: Several weeks ago I posted a message asking for >opinions on the need for a U.S. standard for arrangement in indexes, >catalogs, etc. I received only one response to that message, and would like >to determine if interest is really that low. A summary of my earlier >message follows. > >The committee, chaired by Jim Anderson, which is charged with revising the >ANSI/NISO standard for indexes has recommended that NISO develop a standard >for arrangement. I am the member of NISO's Standards Development Committee >(SDC) responsible for the area of abstracting & indexing, and it falls to me >to determine if there is enough interest in the field to warrant such an >effort. > >We presently have several conflicting "standards" in the U.S., such as the >ALA and LC filing rules for libraries, and the Chicago Manual of Style (and >others) for indexes. Then dictionaries, encyclopedias, phone books, etc., >are all filed in yet different ways. > >In the international arena, there is an ISO standard which is a set of >principles (that would be very difficult to understand, let alone apply), >plus a technical report which is an example set of rules. The BSI has a >filing standard which is a set of rules -- and as such not applicable in all >situations. > >I would much appreciate response as to whether a standard for arrangement is >needed. I have concluded that an attempt to legislate a single arrangement >for all circumstances would probably be fruitless. We would look for a more >flexible way -- if an effort is warranted at all. > >The NISO/SDC meeting next Monday (April 26) will probably make a tentative >decision on this issue. Please reply either directly to me or via the list. > >Jessica Milstead >76440.2356@compuserve.com Jessica, I'm pretty wet behind the ears, so I haven't really formed an opinion about this. But I'm very interested in what the seasoned indexers have to say about this. I hope you will get more responses and post a summary. Do you know whether the standards issue is on the program for the May ASI conference? I don't have the schedule with me. -- Carol Roberts Publications Services Cornell University cjr2@cornell.edu 607 255-9454 Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:34:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: robert hadden Subject: Re: Rules for arrangement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would say it is not needed. There are different rules for different situations, and it has not yet come to the point where indices are as standardized as other items. While this will lead to some amzingly stupid indices, it does give people a choice for inovation and to try new things. lee hadden usgs library ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:34:32 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ned Bedinger Subject: Re: Rules for arrangement ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jessica-- I would probably have something to offer you on the subject of indexing standards, but the general claim that a standard can be propounded for ANY information is troublesome. Perhaps you would give me a more concise idea give me a more concise view of the scope that NISO is considering. Are you mainly pursuing standards for library subjects? I apologize for not taking time to look into the archives for this thread, but I hope that you will post (or repost) more information. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:01:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paula Presley Subject: Re: Indexing research needs In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 16 APR 1993 12:51:00 CST ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Re: What does a user look for in an index? This seems to require about as subjective an answer as can be found. What to "I" look for in an index? What do "you" look for? Different things, of course. For example, I love to make indexes, but I absolutely _cannort_ sort alphabetically after the first letter. (I do fine with long numbers, though!) so, personally speaking--as a user, it doesn't matter to me whether it'sword-by-word, letter-by-letter, ascending, descending, etc. So long as the arrangement is OBVIOUS to the user, (and there are explanatory notes, if necessary), I don't care how it's arranged. I've spent lo, these many years being unable to sort alphabetically (with any precision), so I've trained myself to look at the WHOLE index first. (NB: The above coments are as a USER--not as an Indexer. I try to make my indexes easy to use--usually word by word--and consistent within a monograph series or within a journal) Paula Presley Assoc. Editor, The Thomas Jefferson University Press Copy Editor, The Sixteenth Century Journal Northeast Missouri State University McClain Hall 111L Kirksville, MO 63501 (816) 785-4525 FAX (816) 785-4181 Bitnet: AD15@NEMOMUS Internet: AD15%NEMOMUS@Academic.NEMOState.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:04:11 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Dartnall Subject: Re: Rules for arrangement In-Reply-To: <199304191351.AA03046@jculib.jcu.edu.au> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This is my personal opinion only and based on casual observation not careful research. I don't think users of indexes or of catalogues have any idea that there are rules for arrangement. They mostly get to approximately the right place in the alphabetisation and then browse.I sometimes think that only librarians, indexers and primary school teachers can alphabetise in detail anyway ! The value of rules for arrangement is to the indexer or librarian who otherwise has to make a number of individual decisions. With this in mind, I think a set of rules is useful providing it is mainly designed for ease of interpretation and use.Flexibility is effectively there because anyone who doesn't like that set of rules can always choose another set. Jean ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:04:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Rollie Littlewood . . . (608) 26 2-7385" Subject: Signatures on EMail sent to INDEX-L There have been quite a few examples recently of seemingly anonymous messages sent to this list. I know that not everyone agrees with my view, but I think that discussion is improved if you know who you are discussing things with. My point is to remind INDEX-L subscribers that the process of posting messages on this list strips the sender's EMail address, so you need to include a "signature" IN the body of your message. It certainly need not be as elaborate as mine, but I think it should at least contain your name. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rollie Littlewood (608) 26 2-7385 InterNet : RLittlewood@MACC.Wisc.Edu University of Wisconsin-Madison BitNet : RLittlewood@WiscMACC Institute for Molecular Virology or LittlewoodPK@WiscPSL & Laboratory of Molecular Biology Campus DECNet : WIRCS2::RLittlewood 1525 Linden Drive Madison WI 53706-1596 FAX : (608) 26 2-7414 ***Moderator's note: Thanks, Rollie, for reminding us of this. I would also add that you should at least include your e-mail address. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator Skuster@bingvmb.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:12:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Accreditation Alternative ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- NOTE- If you are reading this on the WELL, and make any response, **please** send a copy directly to me as I am not currently a WELL subscriber. RE: Accreditation Alternative From: Neva J. Smith --==< njsmith@emx.cc.utexas.edu >==-- dba DataSmiths Information Services Colleagues, I have followed the debate in ASI's _Key_Words_ about whether or not we (ASI) should accredit professional indexers. I would like to add another option to the debate. First, my background thoughts. There are several stakeholders in this issue with their own concerns. 1. Publishers who need the services of a freelance indexer. Among their concerns are receiving an appropriate index for the material, keeping a schedule, and obtaining an index at a price commensurate with the level of quality received. 2. Indexers, both freelance and 'regularly employed,' have several concerns. Among them are receiving credit for their work, avoiding 'blame' for a poor index when the client insisted on particular inappropriate changes, and recognition of their skill as a professional. 3. Index users also have a stake in the accreditation controversy. Their concerns include obtaining a useful index that meets their needs for locating information and being able to trust that the index *is* representative of the material in the work (book, journal, database, network). Proposed solution. Create a system of recognized levels of skill and experience, enhanced by credit for formal classes in indexing. There would be several levels (with appropriate names) set by ASI and recognized in the Register of Indexers. Each level would have a set of standards such as: 1. - a minimum number of years as a professional (or at least published) indexer, and 2. - a minimum number of indexes published (shows acceptance by the publishing industry) and 3. - a possible requirement for formal training of some sort. Perhaps certain education credits could substitute for part of either 1 or 2 above. A formal apprenticeship with a high-level indexer could possibly count toward any education or experience requirement. Proposed levels of recognition: 1. The highest level would be 'Master Indexer,' (or something similar), and would include a minimum of _____ years as a published indexer and a minimum of ____ indexes published. 2. The next level down would be 'Professional Indexer,' someone who has both experience and published works, but at a lesser level that above. The Professional Indexer may have also had additional formal course work which would count toward the 'years in practice' qualification. 3. The 'Practitioner' is a fully qualified entry level indexer having completed either formal coursework or an apprenticeship with a Master Indexer, but is not yet published or has published only in conjunction with a higher lever indexer. 4. 'Apprentice.' Just starting out. No formal training yet. Has the supervision (or mentoring) of a higher level indexer. As in most labor markets, certain types and amounts of education would substitute for part of the 'experience' or 'years in practice' requirements. I think this arrangement would address the stakeholders' concerns concerning reliability of the index, professional recognition, and value for the publisher's dollar. This arrangement of levels, based on objective criteria, allows for a more informed choice, without putting a monstrous burden on ASI to develop indexing exams, yet acknowledges the time and effort we have put into developing out careers. ### Now it's *your* turn. -- What do you think? ### Best Regards to All, Neva J. Smith dba DataSmiths Information Services njsmith@emx.cc.utexas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:14:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Trademarks ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Someone on my copyediting list raised a question last week about the use of trademarks, and I thought the info I posted to that list might be of interest to indexers, too. The March 1993 issue of the Editorial Eye has a short article about trademarks, which includes an address to write to for a copy of the "Trademark Checklist." Our office just purchased it, so I can even tell you what's in it: the names of over 1,000 trademarks with their generic terms, a hotline number for free info, and a brochure explaining when and how to use trademarks. If you want a copy, send $5.00 to USTA Communications Dept., 1133 Ave. of the Americas, New York, NY 10036. -- Carol Roberts Publications Services Cornell University cjr2@cornell.edu 607 255-9454 Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 11:19:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lisa Guedea Subject: Freelancer(s) wanted: project posting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- * * * Please do not forward or re-post this notice without * * * permission from the originator of the message (LGUEDEA@MACC.WISC.EDU). Thank you. FREELANCER(S) WANTED C A T A L O G I N D E X I N G P R O J E C T The Highsmith Company, Inc. is seeking a professional freelance indexer to assist in preparing our 1993 product catalogs. The Highsmith Company is a distributor of supplies, furniture and equipment to libraries, educational institutions and large organizations. PROJECT DESCRIPTION Needed are individual back-of-the-book indexes for a group of catalogs, ranging in size from 700+ pages to 125 pages. We prefer to have one person index all of these catalogs, but we would be willing to consider a collaboration among several indexers under certain conditions. The Highsmith Company will provide general guidelines on content and will supply the indexer(s) with appropriate reference materials and examples of previous catalog indexes. We will expect cross- referencing and/or multiple listings in accordance with industry practice, and tailored to meet specific criteria determined by the focus of each catalog. FORMAT Completed indexes will need to be submitted in electronic form (ASCII or wordprocessor compatible with our in-house desktop publishing system). DEADLINE The major portion of the indexing will need to be completed by July 1, 1993. The remainder will be due no later than July 8. QUALIFICATIONS The ideal freelancer will have experience indexing product catalogs and a working knowledge of library science and/or educational materials. Interested parties will be asked to submit samples of work or professional references. For information on how to apply, please contact: Lisa Guedea Corporate Librarian The Highsmith Company, Inc. P.O. Box 800 Fort Atkinson, WI 53538-0800 414-563-9571 E-mail (internet): LGUEDEA@MACC.WISC.EDU Project availability closing date: May 3, 1993 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 11:22:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sue Myers Subject: Re: Trademarks In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Apr 93 10:16:24 EDT from ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Is it only $5? ========= On Wed, 21 Apr 93 10:16:24 EDT Floyd, Marguerite said: >Sue: Can we afford this, and if so, would you please have Anna order >it for me? Thanks! >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Someone on my copyediting list raised a question last week about the use of >trademarks, and I thought the info I posted to that list might be of >interest to indexers, too. The March 1993 issue of the Editorial Eye has a >short article about trademarks, which includes an address to write to for a >copy of the "Trademark Checklist." Our office just purchased it, so I can >even tell you what's in it: the names of over 1,000 trademarks with their >generic terms, a hotline number for free info, and a brochure explaining >when and how to use trademarks. If you want a copy, send $5.00 to USTA >Communications Dept., 1133 Ave. of the Americas, New York, NY 10036. >-- > > >Carol Roberts >Publications Services >Cornell University >cjr2@cornell.edu >607 255-9454 > >Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. =========================================================================