Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 09:37:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: internet glossary availa ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to: RE>internet glossary available Can you telnet to it so you can browse instead of retrieving the whole document? If so, are the login and password "anonymous" and your e-mail address, respectively? -------------------------------------- Date: 1/14/93 12:18 PM To: Carol Roberts From: Indexer's Discussion Group Received: by qmrelay.mail.cornell.edu with SMTP;14 Jan 1993 12:18:20 -0500 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4130; Thu, 14 Jan 93 12:16:02 EST Received: from UGA.BITNET by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) with BSMTP id 5114; Thu, 14 Jan 93 12:15:01 EST Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 12:11:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Knee Subject: internet glossary available via FTP To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Dear fellow indexers, Just released is RFC1392, a very useful glossary of terms and acronyms used when talking about the Internet. You can get a copy via anonymous FTP to uacsc2.albany.edu -- use the command GET INTERNET.GLOSSARY . Be prepared, it's 58 pages long. Michael Knee University at Albany, SUNY University Library Albany, NY 12222 bitnet: knee@albnyvms internet: knee@uacsc1.albany.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 09:38:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was cweaver@CARSON.U.WASHINGTON.EDU From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Washington State Indexers meeting ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The informal Washington State indexers' group will hold its first meeting of 1993 on Wednesday, January 27, at 12:30 p.m. at Japanese Cuisine Tatsumi, 4212 University Way N.E., Seattle. Topic of discussion: Is it time to take full advantage of our ASI memberships and form a chapter? Advantages are many; disadvantages are ??? Anyone interested in indexing is welcome, whether or not you belong to ASI. To insure a luncheon reservation at Tatsumi, please RSVP to me by Friday, January 22. Carolyn Weaver University of Washington Health Sciencs Library (day job!) e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/643-1614 (home) or 206/543-3401 (days) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1993 11:12:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ANDRE DETIENNE Subject: advise on splitting index ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- As I work on the index for the 5th volume of the --Writings of Charles S. Peirce-- (W5), I am now faced with a decision for which I request the advise of more expert indexers. W5 contains a wide variety of materials: scientific reports, philosophical essays, logic treatises, mathematical papers, letters, reviews, etc., most of which is published here for the first time. Eighteen of the 58 items in the volume form the bulk of a lengthy study on "Great Men," covering about 80 pages of a +/- 600-page book. This study consists of a series of more or less fragmentary notes in which Peirce conducts a sort of statistical analysis of the psychological and social character of a selection of 50 great men, the names of each of which appears on each page of a lengthy questionnaire. The study also includes long lists of great men that are divided in several categories. All in all, there are about 700 names of great men that appear in these 80 pages, some of them are mentioned just once, and others many times. The rest of the volume, mostly scientific and philosophical, includes a normal balance (from the indexer's point of view) between indexable proper names and concepts. The question is this: is it or not advisable to split the index into two parts, one for persons and the other for "subjects"? Here are some arguments pro and con. PRO: Keeping all entries in one index will cause a terrible stress on the readers. Most of them will have very little interest in the list of 700 great men or in Peirce's study anyway, and will have a much higher interest in looking up entries for the meatier part of the volume. Keeping the 700 names will needlessly swamp the more interesting entries in the index. Only by splitting it will we achieve clarity, order, common sense, and ease of use. CON: - Many proper names (of persons) occur in the rest of the volume that should not be relegated in an index of persons that would mostly consist of "great men". Furthermore, a number of those names occur both in the "Great Men" series and in the rest of the volume (like Aristotle), and on what ground could we distinguish those entries? - A number of proper name entries have non-proper name subentries, which are more relevant in the subject index than in a persons index. -We have never done this before in this edition, and other similar critical editions (James, Dewey) haven't either; we should not set a precedent. I will very much appreciate an answer to my problem. Andre De Tienne Assistant Editor Peirce Edition Project IUPUI, Indianapolis ADETIENN@INDYCMS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 10:35:39 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joanne Holiday Subject: Suggestions for indexing nuclear defense info needed ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am a librarian, not an indexer by training (unfortunately). I have the task of developing a list of subject headings for some office files dealing with the re-design of US nuclear weapons manufacturing capability. I am using DOE Order 0000.1A (a very general subject classification list) as a start. I need to supplement it with terms that cover design and engineering of manufacturing plants, project planning, budgeting, contracting, and quality assurance. I'd like to see some thesauri or existing indexes that might help. Anybody (please) have a suggestion? Please respond to the list or to me: jh@access.digex.com -- and Thank You! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 14:56:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Catherine Grissom 615-576-1175" Subject: RE: Suggestions for indexing nuclear defense info needed ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- DOE has a thesaurus for use in indexing scientific, technical and policy information generated by or of interest to the Department. There is also a classified version for weapons data and related information. The thesaurus, with more than27,000 entries, has been subset for several uses and mini-thesauri produced to meet these needs. I will be happy to provied additional information. Catherine Grissom 615-576-1175, FAX 615-576-2865, grissom@a1.osti.gov ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 16:57:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ANDRE DETIENNE Subject: standard for French names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here is a question concerning the standard spelling of French proper names in an American index. Do we have to 1) spell French names the way the French do? Examples: Bichat, Marie Francois Xavier (cedilla under c in Francois) Bossuet, Jacques Benigne (accent aigu above first e in Benigne) Champollion, Jean-Francois Rousseau, Jean-Jacques 2) spell French names according to Webster's New Biographical Dictionary? Examples: Bichat, Marie-Francois-Xavier Bossuet, Jacques-Benigne Champollion, Jean-Francois Rousseau, Jean-Jacques You notice that Webster's adopted the policy of hyphenating all French first names, no matter what. I can't find a justifiable reason for that. 3) spell French names according to some other American dictionary? The old Century Cyclopedia of proper names had the policy of removing all hyphens from French first names. Examples: Bichat, Marie Francois Xavier Bossuet, Jacques Benigne Champollion, Jean Francois Rousseau, Jean Jacques Again, I don't see the reason of removing hyphens when they originally belong to the name. In French, hyphenated first names form just one first name, not two. So, what are we supposed to do in an index? Other question: everyone knows the famous Flemish painter, Jan Van Eyck. Where do we put his name in an alphabetical index? According to American dictionaries, under Eyck: Eyck, Jan van. But this does not correspond to the truly original name. All French dictionaries I have seen consistently list him under Van Eyck, Jan. In Flemish, you would list names with "van" (lowercase v) under the next (capitalized) word, and names with "Van" (cap.) under "V". So, again, what are we indexers supposed to do: respect the original spelling, or respect what might appear as American misspellings? Any suggestion will be welcome. Andre De Tienne Assistant Editor Peirce Edition Project, IUPUI ADETIENN@INDYCMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:29:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PAULA PRESLEY Subject: standard for French names In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of WED 20 JAN 1993 16:00:51 EST ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- For indexing names of ANY Western language, I usually select a standard reference source (often Webster's Biographical Dictionary_) that is best for the book I'm indexing. Then, depending on no. of entries, I either double-post it or make a cross-reference from the variants. For hyphenation, I try to follow the rules in chap. 6 of 13th ed. of Chicago Manual of Style. I'm lucky (I suppose) because I do the copy editing and indexing of most of our books, so I can choose a "rule" and stick with it through the whole process... usually. Recently, an author insisted on Anglicizing (or Americanizing) many, many names (in a large book) that have had fairly standard spellings for a couple of hundred years of Western history. In this case I simply had to do either double postings or cross-references, for most scholars in the field would probably look first under the generally accepted spellings. (Of course, if the variant falls alphabetically in the same place it would have with the standard spelling, you then have to decide which to use...I usually put the standard spelling in parentheses if I think it serves a useful purpose. I wouldn't attempt too much messin' with names in a field with which I'm not familiar, however.) Hope this helps a bit. The more I study indexes, the more I'm sure that each indexer follows the "best" rules...but they don't always agree; e.g., follow author's spellings no matter what; follow a standard reference work no matter what; etc.) Paula Presley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:30:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Responses to Andre De Tienne's queries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 1. When deciding whether to split or lump name and subject indexes, I don't use any hard and fast rule such as size; I think content is a better criterion. If splitting the indexes will allow for ease of access to the subjects, then by all means split the names off into a separate index. But if the arrangement of subheads are intimately linked, then maybe one long index works better. This is especially true if you need to use cross-references between subjects and names. You couldn't easily cross-reference a name if it is in a separate index, or vice versa. For example, index entries for "Transcendentalism" and "Thoreau, Henry David" might be cross-referenced, if these discussions overlap. If you split the indexes, would you use cross-references between them (my own opinion is NO NO NO!) 2. Spelling of French (and other foreign) names: When in doubt, follow the author, on the assumption that the copyeditor has already made a decision to retain spellings at odds with Webster's Biographical Dictionary. If the spelling is very dissimilar, I would use a cross-reference from the Webster's approved spelling to the author's spelling, to help the reader. The assumption that the copyeditor has even thought about thiscould be a tenuous one, as I often discover when working on books with Asian names (which are hardly ever consistent if left up to the author). I think the issue of hyphen/no hyphen is less problematic (I'd use whatever style the author used, even if it violated Webster), because that won't change the alphabetization. If the name truly should have hyphens, I think Webster should be considered fallible. What is really worse is when the copyeditor hasn't even made the same name consistent within a volume of contributed papers--this has happened far too often for me to think it is a fluke. Then the index must cross-reference every variant spelling AND decide what the "correct" spelling is. There should be an extra charge for this (wishful thinkin! But I feel like I'm re-editing half of these books). For American books, I think "Eyck, Jan van" works fine. If the book is being published in France, check out the French biographical dictionaries, but if it is being published here, I guess the references available to American readers makes sense. As a former art historian, I recall him being referred to as "Eyck" unlike "Van Gogh," which I find awkward to index as "Gogh, Vincent van." I await further discussion. Any other views? Barbara E. Cohen Professional Indexer (becohen@well.sf.ca.us) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:30:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LINDA HILL Subject: Re: standard for French names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- First of all, in this area as well as other such nitty-gritty bibliographic matters, the library community has worked out rules to follow. I can't cite chapter and verse, but I suspect that others on this list can. If not, I can ferret them out for you. I believe that indexers should follow the cataloging standards and not depend on the published listings that you consulted - so many publishers just strike out on their own. Hyphenating the first names together may have been done to simplify their sorting process, for example. In addition, within the last 2 years (I think) there was an excellent article on the problems of personal name representation. Again, I can't provide the citation at the moment - I may have it at home. If others on the list can't come up with it, I will provide the citation later. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:11:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PAULA PRESLEY Subject: Re: standard for French names In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of THU 21 JAN 1993 08:33:59 EST ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The library material referred to is probably "AACR2"; that is, Anglo-American Cataloging Rules, 2d ed. That's o.k., I suppose. But sometimes (we) librarians operate in a world different from indexers. It's nice to know what each other uses, but the reason for different manuals and guides is that the work is not the same. Yes, occasionally I even use the Library of Congress Subject Headings set when I'm stumped about what term to use for something that is referred to in various ways throughout the text. The catch is, of course, that LCSH changes from time to time, too. Just remember that LCSH is exactly what it says it is: a guide to the Subject Headings in use at the Library of Congress. These may or may not be useful for what you're indexing. IN some ways, I like indexing because it's so much like religion: One has lots of freedom to do what seems best, but there are overarching rules to rely on as you go along. ... neither (religion or indexing) are TOO confining, nor are they TOO free. :-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:39:22 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DHUERTA@COLGATEU.BITNET Subject: CINDEX ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am looking for information about using CINDEX. What do you folks who use it think about it? Where is it available? What sort of competition does it have? I am contemplating using it for a small desktop publishing enterprise in which indexing is critical and somewhat specialized. Debbie Huerta IN%"DHuerta@Colgateu.bitnet" or @Center.Colgate.edu Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:56:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LINDA HILL Subject: Re[2]: standard for French names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It's important to realize the difference between cataloging ruless such as AACR II and subject heading lists such as the LC Subject Headings. Cataloging rules dictate how bibliographic elements are expressed and deal with such problems as the format of personal names. For our purposes (indexing in its various manifestations), the rules for Chinese names or French names or compound surnames, etc. are useful if the goal is to standardize the way these names appear across data sources. I think that for back-of-the-book indexing a higher value may be to be faithful to the name formats of the piece, however, rather than to be in step with other sources. Some cataloging rules are not useful and we would all make our own judgements on this score. Even though AACR II probably prescribes that personal names be completely expressed - last name, first name middle name - maybe even birth date (it's been a long time since I looked at AACR II) - there are applications where only the last name and initials are chosen as more appropriate. Subject heading schemes are another matter. The LC Headings were designed to describe whole volumes - not articles and not specific page-by-page content. I don't think LC Headings are good guides for b-of-t-book indexing except, perhaps, for very broad concepts. Thesauri, however, might be if one exists for the subject area of the document. Thesaurus terminology is based on "literary warrant" primarily, meaning the way that ideas are expressed in the literature of the field and they incorporate decisions that have been made on the expression of choice when there are synonymous or nearly synonymous ways to express the same thing. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:20:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HANKS@UTHSCSA.BITNET Subject: Re: CINDEX ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I suggest you contact Linda Fetters who manages the American Society of Indexers Her address is American Society of Indexers, P.O. Box 386, Port Aransas, TX 78373, (512) 749-4052. Linda has been using CINDEX for a number of years and will be delighted to talk to you about it. I am planning to order CINDEX for my indexing operations, with the intent that I will eventually expand. From everything I've seen (Linda gave me a nice demo last Fall), it should be easy to use and easily adapts to many publishing formats. Ellen Hanks, Briscoe Library, U. Texas Health Science Ctr., San Antonio, TX. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:44:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:45:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: CINDEX ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to: RE>>CINDEX Is that for the PC or (dare I say it?) the Mac? Carol Roberts, PUBS, Cornell University -------------------------------------- Date: 1/21/93 4:27 PM To: Carol Roberts From: Indexer's Discussion Group Received: by qmrelay.mail.cornell.edu with SMTP;21 Jan 1993 16:26:54 -0500 Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9228; Thu, 21 Jan 93 16:24:08 EST Received: from UGA.BITNET by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (Mailer R2.08 PTF008) with BSMTP id 1103; Thu, 21 Jan 93 16:24:07 EST Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:20:07 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: HANKS%UTHSCSA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: CINDEX To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I suggest you contact Linda Fetters who manages the American Society of Indexers Her address is American Society of Indexers, P.O. Box 386, Port Aransas, TX 78373, (512) 749-4052. Linda has been using CINDEX for a number of years and will be delighted to talk to you about it. I am planning to order CINDEX for my indexing operations, with the intent that I will eventually expand. From everything I've seen (Linda gave me a nice demo last Fall), it should be easy to use and easily adapts to many publishing formats. Ellen Hanks, Briscoe Library, U. Texas Health Science Ctr., San Antonio, TX. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:44:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LINDA SOLOW BLOTNER Subject: RE: CINDEX ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- You also asked what the competition is. I have been using MACREX for a number of years. I think it's excellent for both back-of-a-book indexes and longer multi-volume sets. It is easy to use but also powerful and sophisticated. Nancy Mulvany could tell you more about it (let me know if you need an address/phone - I have them at home). Linda Solow Blotner Music Librarian Hartt School Univ. of Hartford W. Hartford, CT (bitnet: blotner@hartford) 203-768-4492 =========================================================================