Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Walker, Alvin" Subject: Re: Policies ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi Kay, I work for Psychological Abstracts as a supervisor of the indexing division and editor of the Thesaurus of Psychological Index Terms. I'll be happy to talk to you regarding policy's related to indexing and abstracting. Contact me toll free 1-800 374-2722. Thanks, Alvin Walker, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 16:12:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Archives going Once again, our disk space is tight so we will have to delete a few months of index-l archives. By next Monday, Nov. 22 the archives for January, February, and March will be gone. I have temporarily saved the archives to a tape so that we will be able to clear the disk before Monday--if need be--and I'll keep the archives for a while for those who want to see them but are unable to send for them this week. Charlotte Skuster Index-l Moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:07:27 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED FOR ESTIMATING INDEXING WORK ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Katie's question gives me an opportunity to tell you all how I handled my estimation problem for 10 journal volumes of 4 issues each approximately 200-400 pages each issue. I decided I charged $10.00 per hour and guarantee no more than 2 hours per issue. So 4*20=80*10=800. And, I agreed to kick in names and titles for 200 more for a total cost of 1,000. Publisher said NO TOO MUCH. And I shrugged ... so I don't do a neat indexing job. So Katie think of a minimum basic "it'll do" kind of index, an economy model, and a luxury model and price accordingly. Hannah King SUNY HSC Library at Syracuse kingh@snysyrv1 kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu 766 Irving Avenue Syracuse, NY 13210 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:17:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "DOUGLAS P. WILSON" Subject: Internet Encyclopedia (Interpedia) group project and mailing list ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- This is to inform you about the proposed Internet Encyclopedia, or Interpedia, and the mailing-list for discussion of it. The original proposal, by Rick Gates, was for volunteers to cooperatively write a new encyclopedia, put it in the public domain, and make it available on the Internet. Participants on the mailing-list have expanded the concept by noting that the bibliography entries and references provided with Interpedia articles could include hypertext links to other resources available on the Internet. Unlike any printed encyclopedia, the Interpedia could be kept completely up-to-date. Indeed, it could include hypertext links to ongoing discussions, and perhaps evolve into a general interface to all resources and activities on the Internet. If you find these ideas interesting, please join the Interpedia mailing-list by sending a message to interpedia-request@telerama.lm.com with the body of the message containing the word 'subscribe' and your e-mail address, as follows: subscribe your_username@your.host.domain ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Doug Wilson dwilson@crc.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca or dwilson@chaserv.almanac.bc.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:18:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LJMCCLAI@ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am currently doing some research on how the resources of the Internet are being indexed, or if they are being indexed at all. I would appreciate any comments or suggestions of publications to read on the subject. Does anyone have any thoughts or theories about what indexing has already been done? Thanks, Lisa McClain Indiana University ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 11:09:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Winer Slavin Subject: HELP NEEDED FOR ESTIMATING INDEXING WORK In-Reply-To: Hannah King's message of Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:07:27 ECT <9311171540.AA28350@Early-Bird.Think.COM> Well, that's fine if you feel comfortable doing an "it'll do" kind of index. I would think carefully before agreeing to do such a job, however. After you've done it, if the people using it are dissatisfied, it is likely that the mediocre indexing (or copyediting or proofreading) job will then be associated with your name, even though you've only agreed to perform at that level of quality at the customer's request due to cost considerations. You could unknowingly damage your reputation this way, depending on the circumstances. ("Mary Smith? I remember her. She did that index everyone complained about.") Just a thought. \Susan --- Just my opinions. Susan Winer Slavin Email: wavin@Think.COM Documentation Development Tel 617 234-2706 Thinking Machines Corporation Fax 617 234-4444 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 11:11:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Mcfadden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet >Subj: Indexing the Internet > You might look at my article in the most current (or forthcoming) issue of Learned Publishing, entitled "Indexing the Internet". The article is more about the prospects of electronic publishing than it is about indexing the Internet, but some of the references might help you. T. G. McFadden Associate University Librarian Cline Library Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, Arizona 86011 (602) 523-9036 MCFADDEN@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 11:14:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tom Mcfadden Subject: NISO Standard ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I encourage all INDEX-L readers to request a copy of the draft indexing standard from the ASI Office. Comments on the draft standard should be sent to: Pat Kuhr 817 New Norwalk Rd. New Canaan, CT 06840 T. G. McFadden Associate University Librarian Cline Library Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, Arizona 86011 (602) 523-9036 MCFADDEN@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:48:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED FOR ESTIMATING INDEXING WORK ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Katie - I teach abstracting and indexing, and the following list of variables is one that I've used for that class. Some more subjective comments follow the list. ESTIMATING THE COST FOR AN INDEXING JOB Factors that affect cost Indexing speed, ie., the number of items/pages/documents that the indexer can process per hour Total number of documents/pages/items to be indexed Variability in length, complexity, level, or uniqueness of the documents Total number of indexers and their various indexing speeds Security pass through; in some systems there is a significant delay each time an indexer restarts the workstation; such pass through overhead may be attributable to software, intellectual security, or virus security requirements Source document costs: very often some or all of the source documents must be purchased, interloaned, copied, and stored Availability of indexing aids Data entry equipment availability schedules Quality control steps - time to execute and time to correct (even a spell checker requires time to scan the file and time to fix any problem words). Delivery format, ie., any changes from the data entry format that are required to the intellectual or physical format of the index Thesaurus update: if a thesaurus or other authority list is used, it must be updated as indexing experience develops Supplies must be available, whether for a paper-based system or a computer-based system Administrative costs for the planning, layout, formatting, coordination, and documenting of the workflow Software may be required that must be purchased or authored Output will cost something, whether output to paper or to disk When you are estimating cost, as at least one INDEX-L subscriber suggested, having alternatives can help land a job. Instead of doing a less thorough job, one alternative might be to do a KWIC index. In a technical document such as the one you are looking at, there may be fairly descriptive topical headings that, together with page numbers, would provide the raw input to a KWIC or KWOC. Such a program is available from LIBSOFT on the internet, as are some other indexing packages. +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:50:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A form of indexing is being done by the topical arrangement of Internet areas within Hytelnet and Gopher. Some of the Gopher folks experimented with using Dewey numbers to arrange the system, but I don't know if they pursued it further. There is a lot of room for considering the question and my own approach would be, since this is indeed a computer environment, to make any access system post- coordinate. That is not easy though, because the system would then have to either run on a variety of platforms or be client-server or terminal-host oriented. Right now WAIS offers some fairly good access that is best using a Mac client. Of course all this hinges on how you formulate things, but a linear arrangement like a menu system really needs some thought put into what facets to present and how to arrange things hierarchically. This probably doesn't help, but maybe it's a start on a discussion... +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:55:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Kim Chen (Echo News)" Subject: Re: NISO Standard ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi Tom, This may be a stupid question but is the draft free? Also, is Pat the person we need to contact for a copy? Thanks. Kim ---------- |From: Tom Mcfadden |To: Multiple recipients of list INDEX-L |Subject: NISO Standard |Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1993 11:14AM | |----------------------------Original message---------------------------- |I encourage all INDEX-L readers to request a copy of the draft indexing standard |from the ASI Office. Comments on the draft standard should be sent to: | | Pat Kuhr | 817 New Norwalk Rd. | New Canaan, CT 06840 | | |T. G. McFadden |Associate University Librarian |Cline Library |Northern Arizona University |Flagstaff, Arizona 86011 |(602) 523-9036 |MCFADDEN@NAUVAX.UCC.NAU.EDU | | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:55:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Internet connections ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- If anyone is still looking for the pros and cons on various Internet gateways, check out the most recent issue of "Home Office Computing". It's got an excellent summary of the gateways available thru public online services, along with subscription costs, available modem speeds, etc., and related articles on the Internet in general. (I think it's the December issue; it appeared in my mailbox yesterday.) Carolyn Weaver Seattle, Wa. cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/543-3401 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:56:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Edie Rasmussen Subject: Re: HELP NEEDED FOR ESTIMATING INDEXING WORK ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I was going to check a couple of American Society of Indexers publications to see if they had the kind of information you wanted but (sigh) I seem to have lent them out to an unknown borrower... Anyway, as I recall, there is a discussion of pricing strategies in either or both "Freelancers on Indexing" and "Freelancers on Starting and Maintaining an Indexing Business". The former is a panel discussion by freelance indexers. They contain the only advice I have seen on indexing-as-business, as opposed to the intellectual task of indexing. They can be ordered from ASI if you want copies; or perhaps someone with better control over their personal library than I have could summarize their advice on estimating/pricing. Edie Rasmussen University of Pittsburgh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 11:57:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: King Co Lib System Subject: Estimating INdex costs ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Here's a simple suggestion: 1) Get hold of at least one chapter in paged galleys or better still page proofs. 2) Count the number of index entries you would make on a sampling of pages - say 10-20 pages. 3) Multiply the average number of entries per page times the total number of pages in the book. 4) Multiply the result by a money factor depending on the complexity of the entries - for example, times $.35 if simple author entries; times $.50 if basic subject headings with some sub-headings; by a higher figure if we're talking really complex stuff with long unique entries (that can't be automated with macros). 5) Add an overhead figure to cover such things as paper or floppy disk however you're providing index; depreciation on your computer, etc. When you're quoting a figure, don't go into the above calculations, rather take the dollar figure you arrived at, divide it by the number of pages, and tell the editor you will charge $x per page for the index. I've found this is the easiest thing for editors to understand. I've been doing freelance indexing for about 20 years and the above has always worked for me. Of course, with my regular publishers now I seldom have to quote an advance figure - they know the rate will be fair. Charles Anderson |canderso@wln.com Deputy Librarian, Regional Libs and Ref Svcs | King County Library System |206-450-1789 (tel) 1111 110th Ave. NE |206-450-2468 (fax) Bellevue, WA 98004 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:45:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Nancy C. Mulvany" Subject: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimating Time ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- RE: Estimating Indexing Jobs I would like to elaborate on Susan Slavin's response to doing an "it'll do" kind of index. Susan wrote: Well, that's fine if you feel comfortable doing an "it'll do" kind of index. I would think carefully before agreeing to do such a job, however. After you've done it, if the people using it are dissatisfied, it is likely that the mediocre indexing (or copyediting or proofreading) job will then be associated with your name, even though you've only agreed to perform at that level of quality at the customer's request due to cost considerations. You could unknowingly damage your reputation this way, depending on the circumstances. ("Mary Smith? I remember her. She did that index everyone complained about.") I often contract with indexers for large projects and advise editors about contracting with indexers. I cannot stress enough the impact of what Susan is talking about above. Your professional reputation is indeed connected directly with the work you produce. In my mind, there are two types of indexes: good and bad. To think in terms of "economy" vs. "top-of-the-line" indexes is short-sighted. There are companies that are known to pay terribly for indexing and produce shoddy indexes. When I see one of these companies appear on an indexer's resume, I become wary. The professionalism of the individual is immediately suspect. I don't mean to suggest that this is always an immediate disqualification, but it is certainly a "black mark" in my mind. Let me give you an example. Recently I reviewed resumes from many indexers for a technical indexing project. One indexer did a lot of work (around 60%) for a publisher that pays below market rates and expects an insanely quick turnaround time for indexes. This indexer may be a good indexer. But what bothers me is that so much of this person's work has been in the realm of "quick 'n' dirty" indexing. Will this indexer know how to do a good job when there is an adequate amount of time allowed? Does this indexer know (or remember) how to write a thorough and complete index? The client involved in this particular project wants good indexes, not "quick 'n' dirty" indexes. Solely on the basis of that indexer's association with the particular publisher, the indexer was eliminated from consideration. We are indeed judged by the company we keep. I have spent many years (prior to, during, and after my ASI presidency) working with indexers and publishers in an effort to enhance the professionalism of indexing. I have seen some real changes over the past seven years. I truly believe that due to the concerted efforts of ASI there is a heightened awareness of sound indexing practices within the publishing community. Of course, there's still room for improvement! This heightened awareness can be a double-edged sword for some in our ranks. This past year I received calls from several editors at various publishing houses. They all did what they thought they were suppose to do: they contracted with "professional" indexers; they paid them well; they gave the indexers an adequate amount of time to write the index. And, they got back shoddy indexes. They had to spend many hours of _their_ time trying to "fix" the indexes. One editor asked me, "Why should I bother with these freelance indexers? The book author could've done a better job." I'm hearing more and more of this type of comment. It is very disconcerting. After looking at some of the indexes, I had to agree with the editor -- the book author could've done a better job. For years, indexers have complained that our work is not appreciated, that editors don't understand what we do. Well, more and more editors do understand what we do and appreciate a good index. More and more of them know how to tell the difference between a good index and bad index. I have come to the conclusion that we are the source of the lack of professionalism in indexing, not our clients. Last year I spoke with an editor who was reviewing a resume and cover letter from an indexer. This editor assigns around 40 indexes a year to freelancers. She was amazed at the tone of the letter. The indexer promised to turnaround work extremely quickly (a 300-page manual in 3 days) and offered to do the work for $3.00 a page. Their indexers were paid $4.00 to $7.00 a page at that time. The deliberate underbidding did not impress this editor. However, it was the quick turnaround time that bothered this editor the most. She did not want her material handled that way. This indexer was not added to their freelancer list. I am disturbed by some of the suggestions others have offered here. Self-employed professionals running a business do not charge $10.00 an hour for their time -- that amounts to around $5.00 an hour net. Might as well work at McDonald's. Indexers do not confuse a KWIC list with an index. As for the original question from Katie -- how long will it take to index a 900-page technical procedures manual? The best thing to do is work with a few chapters and figure out how many pages you can index per hour. Extrapolate from that number to how many hours will it take to index 900 pages. When you have the number of hours to index 900 pages add on 1/3 (at least) more hours for editing. Then multiply the number of hours by what you want to earn per hour. Remember if you are dealing with a client who has contracted for technical writing, they have probably paid anywhere from $25.00-$50.00 per hour for writing. Contract writers and editors I know in the San Francisco Bay Area are charging $40.00 per hour. My time is worth no less. -nancy Nancy Mulvany ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 16:17:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Archives I thought that we could make it until next Monday without having to make room on the index-l disc. No such luck---we ran out of space today. January, Feb. and March were removed this afternoon. For those of you who want to see the messages for those months--I have saved them and can send them directly to you. Just let me know. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 12:54:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Resent-From: Charlotte Skuster Comments: Originally-From: Charlotte Skuster From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Archives ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I thought that we could make it until next Monday without having to make room on the index-l disc. No such luck---we ran out of space today. January, Feb. and March were removed this afternoon. For those of you who want to see the messages for those months--I have saved them and can send them directly to you. Just let me know. Charlotte Skuster Index-l moderator ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 12:59:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Re: Indexing the Internet ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Just looking through my materials collection on Internet-related stuff, and came across "Assessing Information on the Internet: Toward Providing Library Services for Computer-Mediated Communication" by Martin Dillon, Erik Jul, Mark Burge, and Carol Hickey published by OCLC in 1993. It contains a detailed proposal for a USMARC format to accomodate Internet resources. I suppose that means there will be catalog entries coming soon. Related to the MARC cataloging format is the notion of uniform resource identifiers which are being discussed as a means of linking OPAC entries to some kind of telnet/ftp process so that we really COULD have a "supercatalog". +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:00:00 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Roger A. McCain" Subject: Re: Internet Encyclopedia (Interpedia) group project and mailing list ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A closely related project is going on as part of the Global Network Academy project, which has some lists and servers for specialized purposes. I will cross-post to the curriculum list -- gna-curriculum@moose.uvm.edu -- because, while it may not be a perfect fit, it's the one I'm on. >fyi Kate -- some economics input? > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >This is to inform you about the proposed Internet Encyclopedia, or >Interpedia, and the mailing-list for discussion of it. > >The original proposal, by Rick Gates, was for volunteers to >cooperatively write a new encyclopedia, put it in the public domain, >and make it available on the Internet. Participants on the >mailing-list have expanded the concept by noting that the bibliography >entries and references provided with Interpedia articles could include >hypertext links to other resources available on the Internet. Unlike >any printed encyclopedia, the Interpedia could be kept completely >up-to-date. Indeed, it could include hypertext links to ongoing >discussions, and perhaps evolve into a general interface to all >resources and activities on the Internet. > >If you find these ideas interesting, please join the Interpedia >mailing-list by sending a message to interpedia-request@telerama.lm.com >with the body of the message containing the word 'subscribe' and your >e-mail address, as follows: > >subscribe your_username@your.host.domain > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Doug Wilson dwilson@crc.sd68.nanaimo.bc.ca or dwilson@chaserv.almanac.bc.ca Roger A. McCain Director, Honors Program "There is one art, and Professor, Economics "no more, no less: 5016 MacAlister Hall "to do all things Drexel University "with artlessness." Philadelphia, PA, 19104 voice 215-895-1267 -- Piet Hein mccainra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:08:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norm Howden Subject: Abstracting Pricing ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Another member of the list sent a personal message asking for some notion of current pricing for abstracting service. Could those who have done some abstracting lately contribute their experience to answering this query? +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Norman Howden | | | | School of Library and Information Sciences | | University of North Texas | | howden@lis.unt.edu (817) 565-2760 | +---------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:24:46 ECT Reply-To: hairylarry@aol.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: hairylarry@aol.com Subject: Re: "Quick'n'Dirty" Indexes and Estimating Time ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I agree with Nancy on much of what she said, especially this point: "For years, indexers have complained that our work is not appreciated, that editors don't understand what we do. Well, more and more editors do understand what we do and appreciate a good index. More and more of them know how to tell the difference between a good index and bad index. I have come to the conclusion that we are the source of the lack of professionalism in indexing, not our clients." How about thinking of a way for ASI to formally address this issue? Could we offer to publishers a service like the BBB--if you use an ASI member to do an index, then are unhappy with the result, ASI will provide an objective peer review of the work and keep a file of such complaints and their resolution. Publishers could ask for this information when considering a freelancer. If feasible, this would enhance the credibility of ASI and professional indexers: anyone who does not want to either make their client happy or stand up to review of their work if the client is unhappy would soon leave the organization. I am aware that a non-profit educational organization like ASI has restrictions on its activities, so maybe it is time to seriously consider a more trade-association-like organization which could really tackle this and other problems (like publishing rates). Larry Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 13:28:40 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Turner James Subject: Nancy Mulvany's comments In-Reply-To: <199311191340.AA09047@condor.CC.UMontreal.CA> from "Nancy C. Mulvany" at Nov 18, 93 03:45:24 pm ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hear, hear for Nancy Mulvany's excellent comments. Working "cheap" is a way to ensure that we remain our own worst enemy. -- ================================================================ = James Turner turner@ere.umontreal.ca = = Ecole de bibliotheconomie et des sciences de l'information = = Universite de Montreal = = CP 6128 Succursale A Montreal (Quebec) H3C 3J7 = = Telephone +1 514 343 2454 Fax +1 514 343 5753 = ================================================================ =========================================================================