From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 7-JAN-1996 13:57:25.72 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9511B" Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 08:11:04 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9511B" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:58:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Acronyms ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 11:32 AM 11/7/95 Nan Badgett wrote: >What is the current trend for treating acronyms in computer books? >Are locators placed with the acronym with cross references from the >spelled out word, or are the entries double posted? I think a >novice would tend to look for the acronym first since they may not >know what it stands for :) >For example, > >JANET (Joint Academic Network), 5, 7 >Joint Academic Network. See JANET (Joint Academic Network) > >OR > >JANET (Joint Academic Network), 5, 7 >Joint Academic Network (JANET), 5.7 > The rule of thumb I use is 2 fold: 1) Post at both places when there are no subheadings, as the case here; including the acronym at the spelled-out location and vice-versa; 2) when there are subheadings, have a "see" to the one of the two that is the "most standard". Most standard can vary between disciplines. In many "practical", i.e., "applied" fields like engineering, acronyms are the standard means of talking about something and people might actually look on you as "uncool" to use a spell-out expression. Chemists on the other hand (a "pure" field) talk about Gas chromatography and Mass spectrometry as much if not more than they would about GC or MS, although GC/MS is the standard term for the combination of the two. That said, it has been my experience that computer folks not only prefer the acronymated form (new word: sounds like a form that's been led down the wrong path..), but will create an acronym if one does'nt already exist on the flimsiest of pretenses. So I would lean toward the acronym form when doing computer books. I listen to the radio program "Software Hardtalk" with John Dvorak, on NPR; (check local times for this great weekly show: Thursday nights at 10 in my area) and acronyms seem to rule there. In fact it was there I first learned about VRML: Virtual Reality Modeling Language, and now I'm doing a rush book on it! Make your best (instant) guess at which form is the more standard, put a "see" at the other one, and go on: Don't lose any sleep over it. You can always change your mind in the editing process if your reading later in the book leads to a change of heart. Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:00:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Annblum@aol.com Subject: Re: ASI Annual Meeting in Denver, CO ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sorry that I didn't respond sooner, but have been busy. The Denver conference is May 16-18, Thurs -Sat. at the Executvie Towers Inn. I have just completed the program. The entire 4-page flyer with all workshops, programs, etc. will appear in the next newsletter (Nov./Dec.). Hope this helps. Ann Blum ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:01:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- . . . and now I've got lots of questions. Thanks in advance for any advice. BTW, the book is not nearly as boring as I thought it would be, though it is very poorly organized. The rabbi wants every single mention of every single Greek province. This does make sense as the target audience is of those who are seeking their heritage. Question: should I just list every ref on every page, no matter what, as he requested, or should I use some judgment and leave out passing refs that give no info? In the case of the bigger towns, I have subheads such as Salonika fire of population of trades in and so on, but for the little towns, sometimes it's just the town with ten thousand locators. Will that be OK? (I wax a bit hyperbolic, I know.) Also I need a better term than trades. I tried "occupation" but then I started having entries about occupation as in, "of Bulgaria" as opposed to "of the townspeople." Same problem with export stuff. Commodities? Merchandise? Just plain old "exports"? And, is it ok to use, for example: immigration of Jews from *various* towns or must I list all ten million towns in each case, and if so, should they be separate sub heads, and also as main entries? I could truly have a 20 million page index. I'm not kidding. And furthermore, as the book is titled Greek Jewry . . ., may I assume that readers would know that immigration is of Jews, or must I say so in each entry (as above). One more: if there is an item that needs to be indexed, but is unclearly written in the book, can I slightly change the wording to make sense in the index? I can't think of an example. Funny story (is this a beginner or what?): On about the 24th page I realized I should have been indexing a certain name, and thought, Now I have to go back and find previous refs to this guy. How am I going to find them. Oh, I'll look it up in the index . . . I hope I have not made a fool of myself here, but I'd rather I do it here than in the index. Thanks again for any help. Rachel Rachel Rice Martha's Vineyard Island rachelr@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:01:43 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Charlotte Skuster Subject: Free-lance book indexers needed (fwd) From: creese@ny.asce.org To: Multiple recipients of list ELDNET-L Subject: Free-lance book indexers needed ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, everyone, As the Manager of Information Products, one of my responsibilities is to have the indexes for our standards, committee reports, manuals, guides, etc. produced. Due to the growth of our book acquisition program, I am in the need of additional book indexers with experience in indexing technical information. If you might be interested or know someone who might, please contact me directly at: creese@ny.asce.org. Please include your address, phone number, and the best times to call you in your message. Please do not send you reply to the list. Thank you. And I look forward to hearing from you. Carol Reese Manager, Information Products American Society of Civil Engineers 345 E. 47th Street New York, NY 10017-2398 creese@ny.asce.org (212) 705-7520 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:11:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@aol.com Subject: Re: creating indexer directories ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Maryann, The MA chapter is planning to produce a member directory to serve the two purposes of providing members with information about each other and providing publishers with information about us. We haven't started it yet, so I can't say for sure how it will turn out, but I expect it will be more like the ASI Locator than the ASI Membership Directory. The descriptive information in a Locator-like directory will help our members get to know each other as well as help them find indexers they can refer publishers to when they can't take on a job. My inclination is to charge publishers for this valuable information rather than to distribute it via a mass mailing. Information could also be provided to publishers via phone and fax. Marilyn Rowland President, MA Chapter ASI ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:14:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Ellen Curtin Subject: Conjunctions in run-in entries In-Reply-To: <9511071715.AB10624@mail-in.worldlink.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The publisher I do most of my work for (Yale University Press) wants run-in subentries. I have tended to use conjunctions in subentries as you would in speech, and to put them after the noun, e.g. (from a book on psychoanalysis, oog): Symptoms: anxiety and, nn; character and, mm; drives and, pp; etc. Now for some reason I've started to wonder if it's easier on the reader to put the "ands" before the noun, i.e. Symptoms: and anxiety; and character; and drives; etc. or if I can get away with leaving them out altogether, i.e. Symptoms: anxiety; character; drives; etc. The real advantage of the last approach is that it shortens the index somewhat. Which alternative do you-all feel is the easiest for the reader to use? Mary Ellen Curtin internet: postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:49:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Conjunctions in run-in en... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Mary Ellen, I tend to leave the "and" and prepositions out unless they are absolutely needed to express the relationship I want the entry to show. The cleaner, sleeker, the entry, the better, IMHO. Easier to read, less type, and the publisher has a shorter index on his hands, so he uses less paper. Now, if you can't express the concept without the conjunction, I'd vote for putting the conjunction at the end of the entry, not the beginning. Especially with the run in style, it's hard enough to find the operative work of the subentry in all that type, why make it harder. So at the end of the entry gets my vote, unless you can leave it out altogether, and that's really my preference. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:49:24 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Rachel, I'll try to give you my take on your various questions. 1. Although the rabbi asked that EVERY mention of a town be indexed, you should only index relevant mentions, i.e., if the text supplies information that enhances the readers knowledge about the town. You would index the town name "Town XX, with a population of 10,000" as that provides a size context for the reader, but you would not index the town name in "Immigrants came from such places as X, Y, Z" as that doesn't provide any further information about the town per se. However, you would probably want to include an entry such as immigrants places of origins I usually make it a policy NOT to index the information after phrases such as "including, such as, etc." as they usually introduce a listing that does not provide additional information for the reader. Doing this, you will not end up with long lists of undifferentiated locators after each town. 2. Trades/occupations: as a main heading, you should use what the text calls them, then perhaps use a see reference from another common term that readers might think of. Remember, you are trying to provide as many good points of access to the information as possible within the space limitations of the index. 3. Since the book is about Greek Jews, you can assume that the reader will know that an entry on immigration is about Jews. You might, however, want to specify if information about other groups is includes. Therefore, your entry might look like: immigration places of origin with the locator pointing to the page in the text that gives the places of origin. It is up to the reader to then check the text for the specific town. Remember, you are not re-entering the complete text in the index, but providing a guide to the information for the reader. 4. As much as possible, use terms from the text. However, if there is something patently unclear, certainly use a good/better term. Good luck on the project. You seem to be asking the right questions for your first job. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services 312-561-1993 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:49:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Webike2@aol.com Subject: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hi, I am new to the list. I am not a professional indexer (hope I'm still welcome). I am Director of Business Systems at a company the markets directly to technical laboratories. We have put together a manual for our 100+ ordertakers. We want to index the manual to make it easier for them to find the information they need. I have read all that I can find on indexing, but can't find anything on a book that is constantly being updated (we are reissuing 7 sets of instructions this month and 1 new one). Some instructions got shorted, some got longer, the new one goes in the middle of the manual. Can anyone suggest something I might read on this? If I haven't stated my quandary very well, I will most certainly be delighted to try again. If there is a FAQ that I should read, please direct me hence. Thanks for your patience. Jo Ann Budde Webike2@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:49:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: browsers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 8 November 1995 A few weeks ago I asked for help from any of you out there who had experience in indexing graphic images on CD-ROMs. I'm still considering the prospect of doing this, and am told that "browsers" (employing keywords) are the way many graphics on CD-ROMs are indexed. I've seen two examples of such browsers--Kudos and one whose name I've forgotten--and they seem extremely inadequate. Are any of you familiar with the use, creation, and/or quality of these browsers or any others? Are there some that you think are better than others? Thanks in advance for any help on this subject! Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:49:54 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Conjunctions in run-in entries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 11:14 AM 11/8/95 ECT, Mary Ellen wrote: >or if I can get away with leaving them out altogether, i.e. > > Symptoms: anxiety; character; drives; etc. > >The real advantage of the last approach is that it shortens the index >somewhat. Which alternative do you-all feel is the easiest for the >reader to use? > I seek to eliminate as many conjunctions and prepositions as possible--based on feedback from index users. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com:80/~prider/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:50:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elizabeth Bennett Subject: Indexers Wanted ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- 0 Sz, @-#Y1~..*jT 0 Sz, @-#Y1~..*jT 0 Sz, @-#Y1~..*jT B ETransfer aborted by other side.= INDEXERS WANTED ECRI, a nonprofit health services research agency located near Philadelphia, is seeking one or two freelance indexers to index material for our databases. You must be familiar with medical literature and have experience with database indexing using controlled vocabularies (preferably, NLM's MeSH vocabulary and/or ECRI's UMDNS medical device nomenclature). These are long-term contract positions; you must work at home and there are no benefits. Interested? Please forward your resume and cover letter to: Elizabeth Z. Bennett, Ph.D. Senior Editor, Database and Nomenclature Systems Group ECRI 5200 Butler Pike Plymouth Meeting, PA 19464 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:30:25 ECT Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: (British) Society of Indexers' conference April 1996 ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From the (British) Society of Indexers SOCIETY OF INDEXERS' CONFERENCE at The Hawthorns, University of Bristol, England Friday 12 to Sunday 14 April 1996 THEME: COMMUNICATION PROVISIONAL PROGRAMME: Speakers: * Professor HCG Matthew (1994 Wheatley medal winner) * Elinor Lindheimer (ASI President - on telecommunications and indexing) * Max McMaster (Australian Society of Indexers - on training editors) * Professor Gregory (scientist and author) * Richard Raper (of Indexing Specialists - on semi- automatically-generated indexes) * Andrea Truran (researcher - results of questionnaire to members of the Society) * Robin Bush (archivist) * Captain John Rankin (British Airways pilot - indexing Flight Crew Orders) Other topics: Electronics role of computers and software faxes and modems indexing software workshops Bookstall bring-and-buy Society publications Soapbox Sessions open forum for members~ questions and views Keeping tabs accounting and taxes new assessment system Society matters accreditation/registration courses/NVQs fees survey ------------------------------------------------------------- BOOKINGS FORM Please return by 9 February 1996 to: Auriol Griffith-Jones, King's Stag House, King's Stag, Sturminster Newton, Dorset DT10 2AY Tel: 01258 817601 (international +44 1258 817601) Name: Address: Tel/Fax No(s): I wish to reserve the following accommodation for the Conference weekend 12-14 April 1996 and enclose a cheque (payable to The Society of Indexers 1996): # indicates pounds sterling: Standard Room (#140 : deposit #20) per person En-suite Room (#185 : deposit #30) per person Non-resident (#95 : deposit #15) per person Full payment is required by 9 February 1996 Your fee includes 2 lunches: Saturday, and either Friday or Sunday. Please indicate which day you require - if lunch is required on all three days, there will be an additional charge of #7: Friday Sunday Please indicate any special diet requirements: Please indicate if: transport is required from Temple Meads railway station carparking space is required car registration no: Please include SAE if a receipt is required. NOTE: Any bookings received after 9 February 1996 will incur an administrative charge , and will be taken subject to availability of accommodation. -------------------------------------------------------------- The Hawthorns is a former hotel which has recently been acquired by the University of Bristol and is sited within the Clifton area of the City. Originally five Georgian houses once owned by merchants, the property is located adjacent to the Senate House at the centre of the University's teaching precinct. Whilst retaining the ambience of a comfortable hotel, it has been refurbished to provide comprehensive conference facilities with accommodation, meeting rooms and dining areas all housed under one roof. Hence, it combines the best of academic conference facilities with the comforts of hotel-standard accommodation. There are two levels of accommodation available: en-suite (with shower/WC) and standard (with washbasins). All rooms and corridors are carpeted throughout; there is tea/coffee making equipment in each room and a well equipped kitchen on each floor. A mix of accommodation has been booked for the Conference, but we would suggest that members wanting en-suite accommodation should book early, since there are fewer of these. Already (midsummer 1995), two-thirds of the en-suite accommodation has been booked. The University's catering staff can provide for most dietary needs, but please note on your booking form if you have any special requirements in the way of diet or accommodation. The University will also provide transport between Temple Meads railway station and the Hawthorns and so, again, please indicate on your booking form if this is needed. If travelling by car, it is important to indicate on your booking form that parking space is required and include your car registration number, since there is only limited parking space available at the Hawthorns. The full programme and maps will be sent out in late February 1996. Bristol, City and County (status soon to be restored) will have an eventful year in 1996. In May, the City will host an International Celebration of the Sea, when up to one thousand vessels, including tall ships from all over the world, are expected to moor up at the old quays of Bristol Harbour recreating the days when the port was second only to London in importance. A replica of John Cabot~s ship the Matthew is being built at a public viewing area on Redcliffe Wharf to commemorate the 500th anniversary of his voyage out of Bristol in search of a North-West Passage, and the ship will be dedicated at the close of the Festival. In recent years, the old waterfront area of Bristol has been restored and now includes the Watershed Media Centre and the Maritime Heritage Centre. Among the many attractions on view to the public is the s.s. Great Britain ~ the world's first propellor-driven iron ship, which was designed by Brunel, built in Bristol. and launched there in 1843. Another highlight in the Spring of 1996 will be the opening of the Second Severn Bridge. Sited a couple of miles downstream from the first crossing, construction is now well underway. In addition to these major events, the city and its surrounding area, including Bath (12 miles), boast a wealth of tourist attractions such as: * architectural - Georgian and Regency squares and terraces * historical - St Mary Redcliffe (described by Elizabeth I as `the fairest parish church in all England'), Brunel's Clifton Suspension Bridge, the Theatre Royal (dating from 1766), Harveys Wine Cellars (the cellars date from the 13th century, the wine business from 1796 - another anniversary!) * scenic - both within the city (Avon Gorge, Floating Harbour, Durdham Downs) and beyond (Cheddar Gorge and Mendips to the south, Severn Vale and Cotswolds to the north and east, and, across the Severn Bridge to the west, the Forest of Dean, Wye Valley and the Brecons) * scientific - Exploratory Hands-On Science Centre Should members wish to take the opportunity to explore some of the local attractions, it may be possible to arrange with the University to extend room bookings outside the Conference dates provided notification of this is received with bookings. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:30:36 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-09 10:29:32 EST, you write: >but can't find anything on a >book that is constantly being updated (we are reissuing 7 sets of >instructions this month and 1 new one). Some instructions got shorted, some >got longer, the new one goes in the middle of the manual. What are you creating the manual in? (Software package, I mean). The reason I ask is that this is a perfect case for embedding your indexing in the files so that you can regenerate the index when you need it. If you are building your manual in Word, PageMaker or Frame, you have the capacity in the software to do this. Your second choice, if you aren't using a software package with embedded indexing, is to perhaps number the paragraphs ala the Chicago Manual of Style, and then index to the paragraphs. Probably would create a boring manual! Hope this helps. Jan C. Wright ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:30:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JClendenen@aol.com Subject: Subject of book, etc. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- For my first question to the list, I'd like to get opinions on how to handle the main subject of a book. I've done several indexes since May, and I'm still torn about how much material (if any) to put under a main subject that covers the entire book. In the particular case I'm working on, the subject is "integrity". Things like integrity, definition of seem logical, but there are whole chapters on the three steps to integrity, etc. Should I cite the main discussions under integrity, thus having some long sets of pages (more than 10 at time), or should I cross-reference to some of the sub-topics that have lots of sub-entries of their own? Or, should I leave integrity out as an entry in itself, since that's the name of the book? I could then have "definition" as a main entry, I suppose. I would appreciate any ideas. I've learned a lot already from lurking on the list. Thanks. Joanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:30:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JClendenen@aol.com Subject: Informal names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I thought I'd ask this question separately so that people who are browsing through the subjects will know what they're getting into. My second question is whether or not I should put full names in the index, where nicknames are used in the text. In this case, the examples are well-known: Bill Clinton, Al Gore. Bill or William (don't know his middle initial), Al or ? Thanks again for your help. Joanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:31:09 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Macrex ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I am interested in selling my copy of Macrex (it's the latest version) along with all documentation. My copy is on a 5 1/4", high-density diskette. If you are interested, please write to me at my e-mail address. Many thanks! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "I am not a gourmet chick."--Pearl Bailey ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:31:23 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals In-Reply-To: <9511091527.AA15572@carson.u.washington.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I would suggest setting up your manual with individual section/paragraph numbering rather than sequential pages, e.g. 3.0 Phone orders 3.1 telephone manners 3.2 customer verification 3.3 credit checks The index entries would be: Phone orders credit checks, 3.3 customer verification, 3.2 generally, 3.0 telephone mannners, 3.1 New entries can easily be inserted/deleted without affecting the locators for the rest of the manual. And if the text changes but the location doesn't, then index entries don't necessarily have to be changed. Or worse case scenario, only the updated chapter has to be reindexed. New sections can be worked into the existing scheme by adding alphanumeric sections, e.g. bank credit checks, 3.3a; credit card verification, 3.3b. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Thu, 9 Nov 1995 Webike2@aol.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > I have read all that I can find on indexing, but can't find anything on a > book that is constantly being updated (we are reissuing 7 sets of > instructions this month and 1 new one). Some instructions got shorted, some > got longer, the new one goes in the middle of the manual. > > Jo Ann Budde > Webike2@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:31:34 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jo Ann Budde (Webike2@aol.com) wrote: >I am new to the list. I am not a professional indexer (hope I'm still >welcome). I am Director of Business Systems at a company the markets directly >to technical laboratories. We have put together a manual for our 100+ >ordertakers. We want to index the manual to make it easier for them to find >the information they need. > >I have read all that I can find on indexing, but can't find anything on a >book that is constantly being updated (we are reissuing 7 sets of >instructions this month and 1 new one). Some instructions got shorted, some >got longer, the new one goes in the middle of the manual. <...> It all depends how you presently handle the page numbers. Is the book numbered in sections (A.1-20, B.1-12 etc) or not? Or, when you insert a section, do you repaginate everything after it or use .a, .b, etc. suffixes on the numbers? To keep the index up to date, there is no way around re-indexing every page that changed, either due to additions, editing, deletions, or re-numbering. The process is made much easier by an automatic tool such as CINDEX or Macrex, and by a section-oriented numbering scheme which reduces excessive re-numbering of unchanged pages. I index product catalogs, and although none of them is issued as often as once a month, the principles are the same. Feel free to email me with more specific questions. Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota * This space available: $1 per line per week. We reserve the right * * to deprecate all submissions. No warranty expressed or implied. * ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:31:44 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Acronyms ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >What is the current trend for treating acronyms in computer books? Are locators >placed with the acronym with cross references from the spelled out word, or are >the entries double posted? I think a novice would tend to look for the acronym >first since they may not know what it stands for :) > >For example, > >JANET (Joint Academic Network), 5, 7 >Joint Academic Network. See JANET (Joint Academic Network) > >OR > >JANET (Joint Academic Network), 5, 7 >Joint Academic Network (JANET), 5.7 > I always list them (in computer books or otherwise) under whichever of the two I think the user is most familiar with and then cross-ref. from the other. *However*, when there are so few locators, I double-post, because the cross-ref. entry would actually be longer than the double-post. BTW, it might turn out that users are likely to be familiar with the acronym for one term but the spelled-out version for another term, so you could get the following okay entries: ICCE. See International Council for Computers in Education International Council for Computers in Education (ICCE) JANET (Joint Academic Network) Joint Academic Network. See JANET BTW, is there any reason for including the parenthetical in the cross-ref., as in "Joint Academic Network. See JANET (Joint Academic Network)" above? I generally don't, unless the parenthetical is needed to clarify which of two entries is meant. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:31:56 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Hutchins Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jo Ann, Here's my opinion on a theoretical level; I don't know very much about what, if any, products exist that do these things (but I would sure like to: please let me know what you find). Let me admit up-front that this note has a self-serving aspect too; I would like to talk with people who're interested in this area as I am. I heard you when you said you're not a professional indexer. I imagine that that will mean that you won't understand all of the details in this note -- but I'm trying to write it so that you can get as much as possible from it - and just skip the rest. Hopefully you'll understand enough of the abstractions that your search will be aided by more than what it costs you to wade through this; I believe in informed shopping. I hope I haven't daunted you already! If so, collapse all the following into "See whether Microsoft Word can do what you need.". I think you need to embed the basic indexing information (this is about that) in the text. That way, it remains where it belongs across changes to the manual. This doesn't address building a professional-quality back-of-the-book ("BotB") index from that - but it's a start. Microsoft Word ("MSW") has a facility for the embedding; I imagine most Word Processors do nowadays. It uses special tags that don't get displayed in normal printouts. MSW will build a BotB index for you from these. Again, it won't be anywhere near as good as what a good indexer would produce - but it's *something*. I'd like to go a step further in two separate directions: producing a BotB index from tagging, and what such tagging should really be like. : Producing a BotB Index from Tagging All MSW is able to do (as far as I know; I haven't investigated their most-recent versions) is compile a BotB index one-for-one from your embedded tags. There's an enormous number of things beyond this that one would like to have in a really good BotB index. Just to name a couple: collecting, in some nice way, entries that share [part of] their topic - and building "See..." and "See also" structures, including adding "lead-in vocabulary". (This latter won't be so important for you if your people are trained to have a common vocabulary for the topics in your manuals.) (And MSW *can* do a little of the former.) I think it's possible with current knowledge to do way better than does MSW in directions such as this (though not to closely approach professional indexers - because, eg, much of the phase of crafting an index from the tagging raw materials requires facility with language). By this I mean to say to you that I would look for more than MSW offers, not to say to bet heavily on finding it. What Topic Tagging Should be Like MSW's tags are just single-point tags; what one would optimally like is for the tags to surround each passage to be indexed. This is one of the things that SGML (Standardized General Markup Language) lets one do. Document-production systems that are based on SGML could, therefore, support this kind of feature. I believe that there are some such systems - but can't give you particulars. (If you're interested in electronic delivery of your information - especially from remote sites - the World-Wide Web ("WWW") is an alternative that becomes more attractive every day. HTML, the language of WWW documents, is an instance of SGML - and so has the potential for expressing indexing using containers, as above. I am now exploring what of this can be done given the current version of HTML and existing clients and servers.) We here at Draper Labs have built a prototype electronic information-access system that embodies most of the above ideas and opinions. Although it's not today something that one would want to use for production development and delivery of technical reference manuals, its functioning does at least give me the confidence to offer these opinions. P. Michael Hutchins pmh@draper.com Subject: Time: Date: RE>Indexing Live Manuals 12:01 11/9/95 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 16:14:50 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Conjunctions in run-in entries ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-08 11:19:58 EST, Mary wrote: >The publisher I do most of my work for (Yale University Press) wants >run-in subentries. I have tended to use conjunctions in subentries as >you would in speech, and to put them after the noun, e.g. (from a book >on psychoanalysis, oog): > > Symptoms: anxiety and, nn; character and, mm; drives > and, pp; etc. > >Now for some reason I've started to wonder if it's easier on the reader >to put the "ands" before the noun, i.e. > > Symptoms: and anxiety; and character; and drives; etc. Mary, Since run-in indexes aren't easily scannable anyway (purely IMHO), I don't think it makes much of a difference whether you put the conjunction before or after the rest of the subentry. However, I'd lean toward the latter simply because it would place the most important word first in the subentry. Another benefit of putting "and" at the end is when there is only one subentry for a heading when you finish the index. When you subsume it into the main heading and if it's important not to lose the concept it refers to by deleting it, it becomes a nice inverted heading. > >or if I can get away with leaving them out altogether, i.e. > > Symptoms: anxiety; character; drives; etc. > >The real advantage of the last approach is that it shortens the index >somewhat. Which alternative do you-all feel is the easiest for the >reader to use? > I've personally found extremely terse subentries are often harder to immediately understand because you've lost the conceptual relationship suggested by conjunctions and prepositions between the main and subentries. In the example you gave, I would initially misread the "character" subentry as meaning a characterization of symptoms instead of as "the character of a person and its relationship to symptoms". The "and" in that case would suggest that both concepts are on the same order of magnitude in the hierarchy of things. In my own indexes, I tend to tack "and" onto the end of subentries that can be flipped to where the former subentry is now the main entry and the former main entry is now the subentry. But I tend to do this only when there is no other way to concisely express that the relationship between the two concepts is not a subsidiary one. OTOH, I that find a whole string of subentries with "and" before/after them sets up an unpleasant resonance in my mind's ear where the consistency in fact becomes tedium. So then it becomes a thing of playing with the whole subentry list trying to balance clarity, brevity, and esthetics while maintaining consistency. Tricky. Then there's another problem with the use of "and". Are the symptoms the result of character? Is character affected by symptoms (e.g., a normally placid person becoming grouchy when in distress)? No, we're not supposed to rewrite the book in the index, but I think it's nice to give a hint of the "aboutness" of the passage being referred to. For example, we could possibly write symptoms effect of character on or symptoms character and adaptation to or symptoms character vs. types of symptoms effect on character depending upon the passage. (Obviously, I don't have much of a clue here. ;-D) I think these elucidations (whichever one is applicable) help to avoid the "and" problem without adding so much bulk (except for maybe the second and third examples) that the reader's scanning is appreciably slowed. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 16:15:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@aol.com Subject: Re: Informal names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reader's Guide to Periodicals indexes Clinton, Bill rather than Clinton, William Jefferson. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 16:15:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- JoAnn, I more than agree with what Jan Wright and Michael Hutchins said about your situation being a candidate for embedded indexing. However, I'd like to address a few points in Michael's post. In a message dated 95-11-09 14:44:06 EST, Michael wrote (in part): >This doesn't address building a professional-quality back-of-the-book >("BotB") >index from that - but it's a start. The way to have your cake and eat it too is to first create the index in dedicated indexing software. This will allow you to see the structure of the index as it's forming, do automatic cross-reference checking, etc. In other words, you can avail yourself of all of the power of software dedicated to the task of indexing (vs. the drawback of embedded indexing modules in word processors where it's mainly an afterthought, BTW). After completely editing the index in the dedicated software (Macrex or Cindex), generate a page-order sort. Use this as your guide for embedding your entries. Resist the temptation to do more indexing while embedding as this can inadvertantly cause more editing problems when you finish embedding. An advantage of using FrameMaker over MS Word for the embedding is that it is much easier to edit FrameMaker indexes than MS Word indexes. In Word you have to manually open every blasted file containing an edit, working from a master index and indexes for the individual chapters, and the task of comparing them, marking them up to get them into synch, looking for the tags to be edited in the files is a royal pain. In FrameMaker, you generate the index with hypertext links which will automatically open the file you need to edit and display the appropriate tag when you click on a page number for an entry to be edited. And edit you will have to do, if only to catch typos introduced in the embedding process. Another advantage of first using dedicated indexing software is that you can readjust page numbering, etc. to account for later changes to the manual and make changes to the index. This will also help prevent the bedevilment of creating blind cross-references because target entries were deleted or changed in the revisions. Another type of problem more readily caught in using dedicated software, is structural change caused by revisions. Newly orphaned subentries are more easily identified and corrected, etc. After making such changes, regenerate and print the page-order sort again. The main problem would be identifying changes made to other parts of the index as a result of editing the structure to account for additions and deletions. If you use FrameMaker instead of MS Word, you can actually generate page-order lists of tags that can be compared with the page order sort from the dedicated software. (A tedious proposition, I know.) >MSW's tags are just single-point tags; what one would optimally like is for >the >tags to surround each passage to be indexed. This is one of the things that > SGML >(Standardized General Markup Language) lets one do. Document-production >systems that are based on SGML could, therefore, support this kind of >feature. MS Word's tags do allow you to establish page ranges (painfully, but yes). This is done by creating bookmarks covering the material within the page range and inserting the book mark into the index field (tag). The problem arises if the document is large because Word 2.0 can handle only 450 bookmarks (i.e. page ranges) and version 6.0 is limited to 600 (I think). FrameMaker, OTOH, does not limit the number of page ranges because they are established by putting duplicate startrange and endrange markers at the respective limits of each range. BTW, I have no financial relationship with Frame Technology or its new parent company, Aldus. ;-D My remarks are based purely on having used both MS Word and FrameMaker for indexing. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:55:19 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Hutchins Subject: Re: browsers (indexing graph ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Reply to: RE>browsers (indexing graphics) (I'm sending this reply to the List instead of just to Laura directly, because the only address for her that was available in her posting was invalid (I got a similar invalid From- adx from someone recently, who explained that it was because she was using Netscape); please make sure you include a valid return adx in your postings.) Laura, What kind of functionality are you expecting? (I don't have your earlier posting available to refer to right now). Part of my work involves indexing media other than text. It's just at the prototype-building level/stage - but I think we might well be able to help each other. -- P. Michael Hutchins pmh@draper.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:55:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Michael K. Smith" Subject: Re: Subject of book, etc. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >For my first question to the list, I'd like to get opinions on how to handle >the main subject of a book. I've done several indexes since May, and I'm >still torn about how much material (if any) to put under a main subject that >covers the entire book. >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Howdy, Joanne... I'm presently doing a book on maquiladoras in Sonora. If I wanted to, I could do 90%+ of the entries as subheads of that! Instead, I'm only using "maquiladoras" as the main entry when the subhead won't stand by itself. E.g.: "maquiladoras, nature of" and "maquiladoras, agricultural" -- but "managers, perceptions of labor market" (they're all Maquiladora managers) and "modernization (...of maquiladoras). (And congrats on the very complimentary review in INDEXER...!) Mike Michael K. Smith mksmith@metronet.com ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It doesn't TAKE all kinds; we just HAVE all kinds. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:55:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@aol.com Subject: Midwest ASI chapter ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I live in Wichita, Kansas and was interested in knowing if there are indexers who would like to form an ASI group in the Oklahoma, Kansas, Western Missouri, Nebraska area. If so please send me an e-mail message; Prindex@aol.com. Judy Press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:55:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Informal names In-Reply-To: <199511091933.LAA11130@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Thu, 9 Nov 1995 JClendenen@aol.com wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I thought I'd ask this question separately so that people who are browsing > through the subjects will know what they're getting into. > > My second question is whether or not I should put full names in the index, > where nicknames are used in the text. In this case, the examples are > well-known: Bill Clinton, Al Gore. Bill or William (don't know his middle > initial), Al or ? If the informal names are used in the book, I'd index under them. Since in any event the last name will remain the same, I wouldn't even do a "SEE" reference, thought I =might= consider doing something like this: Clinton, Bill (William Jefferson), p. xxx Just so folks who don't know his "real" name will see it spelled out at least once. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:56:17 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 14:31 9/11/95 ECT, P. Michael Hutchins wrote: (MSW = Microsoft Word (Version 6?)) > >What Topic Tagging Should be Like > >MSW's tags are just single-point tags; what one would optimally like is for the >tags to surround each passage to be indexed. This is one of the things that > SGML >(Standardized General Markup Language) lets one do. Document-production >systems that are based on SGML could, therefore, support this kind of feature. I would imagine that a macro could be written to do this in Word - that is, to convert, say Text Text Text Text into a Word field that the Word indexing module would subsequently compile into: Indexing in Word 21-22 But I don't imagine this would be easy, and would be interested to hear from anyone who's attempted it. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:56:28 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 14:31 9/11/95 ECT, Carolyn wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I would suggest setting up your manual with individual section/paragraph >numbering rather than sequential pages, e.g. > >3.0 Phone orders >3.1 telephone manners >3.2 customer verification >3.3 credit checks > >The index entries would be: > >Phone orders > credit checks, 3.3 > customer verification, 3.2 > generally, 3.0 > telephone mannners, 3.1 > Better still, use a method favoured by computer programmers and number the sections 3.10 3.20 3.30 3.40 etc, so that when whole new sections are added they can be numbered 3.15 3.16 etc. and still be inserted in the correct sequence. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:56:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Subject of book, etc. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 14:30 9/11/95 ECT, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >For my first question to the list, I'd like to get opinions on how to handle >the main subject of a book. I've done several indexes since May, and I'm >still torn about how much material (if any) to put under a main subject that >covers the entire book. In the particular case I'm working on, the subject >is "integrity". Things like > >integrity, definition of > >seem logical, but there are whole chapters on the three steps to integrity, >etc. This is best left to the Table of Contents. The index should be concerned with smaller 'chunks' of material, in particular concepts. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:56:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Informal names ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 14:30 9/11/95 ECT, you wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >I thought I'd ask this question separately so that people who are browsing >through the subjects will know what they're getting into. > >My second question is whether or not I should put full names in the index, >where nicknames are used in the text. In this case, the examples are >well-known: Bill Clinton, Al Gore. Bill or William (don't know his middle >initial), Al or ? I would spell out the names. If a 'non-standard' nickname is used it can go in parentheses - e.g. Nails, Red (Rusty). I suspect that full names have a longer shelf life - who now would look up 'Lincoln, Abe', or 'Atlee, Clem'? Overseas and news-challenged readers like me are more likely to need the full names too. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:56:59 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 09:01 8/11/95 ECT, Rachel wrote: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >The rabbi wants every single mention of every single Greek province. This >does make sense as the target audience is of those who are seeking their >heritage. Question: should I just list every ref on every page, no matter >what, as he requested, or should I use some judgment and leave out passing >refs that give no info? Using your judgment is - ultimately - what you get paid for. Locators that don't provide any information just annoy the users. > >Also I need a better term than trades. I tried "occupation" but then I >started having entries about occupation as in, "of Bulgaria" as opposed to >"of the townspeople." Professions? Employment? Same problem with export stuff. Commodities? >Merchandise? Just plain old "exports"? Exports sound fine to me. >And, is it ok to use, for example: > >immigration > of Jews from *various* towns I would just list this as immigration of Jews Or if 'of Jews' is understood then just under 'immigration'. >And furthermore, as the book is titled Greek Jewry . . ., may I assume that >readers would know that immigration is of Jews, or must I say so in each >entry (as above). Yes. In any book there are 'understoods', otherwise the index would need to be twice as long. >One more: if there is an item that needs to be indexed, but is unclearly >written in the book, can I slightly change the wording to make sense in the >index? I can't think of an example. Yes - this is using your judgement again. > >Funny story (is this a beginner or what?): On about the 24th page I >realized I should have been indexing a certain name, and thought, Now I >have to go back and find previous refs to this guy. How am I going to find >them. Oh, I'll look it up in the index . . . Been there, done that. :-) The fact that you're asking the right questions suggests that you're well on your way to working out your own answers. Good luck! Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne (Blue Mountains Desktop Pty Ltd. - ACN 071 232 016) Blaxland NSW Australia jonathan@magna.com.au Australian Wildlife in the Cheese Shop: "We had some, but the cat's eaten it." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:57:10 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prindex@aol.com Subject: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I was planning to go out to buy MS Word until I read Lynn M.'s posting regarding her preference for Framemaker in her reply about indexing live manuals. I would like to hear other opinions about Word vs. Framemaker (or other software) for indexing purposes. (I have Macrex). I have been using Works up until now which doesn't seem up to the job. Judy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:21:13 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . In-Reply-To: <9511101457.AA04138@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > At 09:01 8/11/95 ECT, Rachel wrote: > >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > > >The rabbi wants every single mention of every single Greek province. This > >does make sense as the target audience is of those who are seeking their > >heritage. Question: should I just list every ref on every page, no matter > >what, as he requested, or should I use some judgment and leave out passing > >refs that give no info? I agree with Jonathan. Authors often ask you to include absolutely everything. However, these same authors have often never indexed a book. They don't realize that there's a difference between pertinent information and passing references that don't add anything to the reader's knowledge. One of my very first indexing projects was a book on Finnish history. The author wanted me to index EVERY name of EVERY person that came up in the book. Some of the references were extremely tangential. "X handed Y a letter," and then, of course, I was supposed to write X and Y, letter stuffed into hand of Y and X, letter held in hand of letters X's handing of to other person Y's holding onto correspondence. _See_ letters ;-) or something like that. I left out the purely pointless references. The author made nary a complaint. Use your judgment. I'll bet your judgment's right on the money. > >Also I need a better term than trades. Get hold of a good thesaurus, like Roget's. There's also an excellent synonym finder; the exact name and the publisher escape me at the moment. To echo Jonathan: You are *definitely* asking yourself all the correct, indexerlike questions. These are the questions with which we all wrestle. I think you've got a great future in indexing. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "I am not a gourmet chick."--Pearl Bailey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:21:48 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Personal message? This message may be inappropriate for index-l, as it's of a personal nature. However, since I've gotten a number of off-list questions on the matter, I thought I'd send a note to the list. Please forgive me if I've overstepped the bounds of netiquette. I'm selling my copy of Macrex because I'm planning on making a career change. After ten years as a full-time freelance editor, indexer, proofreader, researcher, translator, and writer, I'm hoping to become a veterinary technician. I spent two months this summer working as a part-time kennel assistant at a veterinary clinic. Since July, I've been volunteering one or two days a week at another veterinary clinic, where I am getting increasingly more responsibility. I absolutely *love* the work, which is far different from anything I've ever done. I've also applied to St. Petersburg (Florida) Junior College's online vet tech program, and I'm hoping to be accepted for the January 1996 term. Talk about midlife career crises! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "I am not a gourmet chick."--Pearl Bailey [Note from moderator: This message is completely appropriate for posting, given the nature of the career change. Please, though, if you have thoughts to share with Hazel about this momentous change in her life, please send them to her, not to the list. Thanks] ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:28:26 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from NEMOMUS In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:00:07 CST I have been indexing books for over 10 years. I use Framemaker for book production and thought that since Framemaker has such nice print indexes that I could use FM to make regular back-of-the-book indexes (and advantage, I thought, of being both the production mgr. and the indexer). After 6 or 8 pages I became so frustrated that I waited until after the final page proofs were returned and the corrections entered, and then I used Cindex.(I felt that I had been defeated by technology, however!) At the 1994 ASI Annual Meeting, a rep from Framemaker acknowledged that FM is not a good tool for indexing. That is, FM hired a professional indexer--who used Macrex--to make the index. Then FrameMaker employees used the Macrex output to make the internal markers used by Framemaker. Those markers were necessary because FrameMaker used the text to make on-line manuals, manuals for Macintosh, DOS, Unix, etc. The bottom line, though, is that indexing with any of the electronic marking systems (be they Word, Word Perfect, FrameMaker) is a slower-than-normal process, has lots of frustrations, and isn't usually as satisfactory as if one had used Cindex or Macrex to begin with. Yes, there are good reasons to have the electronic markers in the on-line document...but they need to be created AFTER the indexing process is completed using another system (even index cards!) ________________________________________________________________ Paula Presley FAX 816-785-4181 VOICE 816-785-4525 Associate Editor, Thomas Jefferson University Press Northeast Missouri State Univ. (Truman State University July 96) McClain Hall 111-L, 100 E. Normal St., Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 Internet: ppresley%nemomus@nemostate.edu ________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________ Paula Presley FAX 816-785-4181 VOICE 816-785-4525 Associate Editor, Thomas Jefferson University Press Northeast Missouri State Univ. (Truman State University July 96) McClain Hall 111-L, 100 E. Normal St., Kirksville, MO 63501-4221 Internet: ppresley%nemomus@nemostate.edu ________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:30:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 08:59:16 EST, you write: >I was planning to go out to buy MS Word until I read Lynn M.'s posting >regarding her preference for Framemaker in her reply about indexing live >manuals. I would like to hear other opinions about Word vs. Framemaker (or >other software) for indexing purposes. >(I have Macrex). I have been using Works up until now which doesn't seem up >to the job. Both Word and FrameMaker do what I call "blind embedding." By that I mean that you cannot see what kind of index you are doing while you are putting in entries. The only time you see the index in context is when you compile, a laborious process in both Word and Frame. The entries also require memorizing all kinds of codes to get them to appear correctly. Neither has any idea of the specialness of entries that contain the words See or See also. To these programs, that is just text. Nothing different. Compared to Macrex, you will be annoyed. It all depends on why you are buying the product to begin with. FrameMaker is terribly expensive, hard to learn, and not all that useful for a one person business. If you are being asked to use it for a project, that's different. But you will get more use out of Word just in general. I dump indexes into it all the time from Cindex. I might suggest you also take a look at PageMaker. It at least has a Show Index dialog box that allows you to view and edit the index in context while you are building it. It's probably just as hard to learn and use as FrameMaker is, but at least the indexing is a little more accessible than either Word or Frame. No coding involved. It has a rudimentary idea of what a See also is. The page ranging is awkward though. But then, embedded indexing software as a whole is awkward and time-consuming. Jan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:30:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: creese@ny.asce.org Subject: Re: Request for Free-lancer Indexers ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I just wanted to thank everyone who replied to my request for free-lance indexers. I will be getting back to everyone eventually. Due to my travel schedule it might not be right away. Thanks again for the response. This is a great way to find help! Carol Reese Manager, Information Products American Society of Civil Engineers 345 E. 47th Street New York, NY 10017-2398 creese@ny.asce.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:31:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I don't understand Wildefire's point about using both dedicated software and embedded indexing? Why to the job twice, if you've first used dedicated software and completely edited the results? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 15:44:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . In-Reply-To: <199511101819.KAA20543@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Hazel, you said it just right. Authors who have never done an index DO frequently expect nearly 100% of the words in their book to be in the index, leading to such useless entries as you describe. One further tip I'd pass along. Do a great index, the RIGHT way, and don't get led into discussing the details of exactly what you did or did not do. In other words, don't tell the rabbi that no, you did NOT include every single mention of every name in the book. Show him the excellent, in-depth index you created, sit back, and bask in the praise. You're definitely on the right track here. Good luck! |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 15:44:57 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 13:41:27 EST, WordenDex@AOL.COM writes: >I don't understand Wildefire's point about using both dedicated software and >embedded indexing? Why to the job twice, if you've first used dedicated >software and completely edited the results? There are times when it is absolutely essential to have the index codes embedded in the files. Let's see if I can think of all of them - if not, Wildefire can come to the rescue. 1. If the files are going to be converted to HTML or PDF or any interactive online application. Frame's hypertext linking of the index back to the page means that you can take these files, make them into an online help system, and have the index work as a navigation tool. 2. Translating the files into another language - translators hate to update page numbers to match a book that has become longer or shorter after translation. They love translating tags in place so that they can avoid looking for page numbers later. They can recompile the index after translation, and everything should be right. I won't go into whether or not the translation will be good when you are working blind..... 3. Active books that get updated a lot, like legal code books. Having the index embedded means you can recompile after you have inserted new sections (hopefully with new indexing as well) and have your page numbers right. 4.. File reuse. If the book is going to be updated next year, but only changed a little, you can recompile the index after the update. 5. Keeping the indexer out of the files until they are stable. If you need embedded codes, but you also need to be doing last minute art changes, ragging the text correctly, getting output to the printer, fixing color separations, etc., you can't have the indexer working with the files for three weeks right at the time you need the files onsite for tweaking. Embedding later, after writing the index in a stand-alone app, means that you can be embedding the index after the printed portion of the book is all set, but before you send it to a translater. It puts the embedding stage a little later in the process where it doesn't impact things as much. It does mean doing the work twice, because Frame doesn't have a robust enough indexing environment to let you do it once. Hope I've come up with them all... jan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 15:45:08 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Subject of book, etc. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >For my first question to the list, I'd like to get opinions on how to handle >the main subject of a book. I've done several indexes since May, and I'm >still torn about how much material (if any) to put under a main subject that >covers the entire book. In the particular case I'm working on, the subject >is "integrity". Things like > >integrity, definition of I would include an entry for "integrity" and list only a very few subs, perhaps only "definition of." Everything else that gives real substantive info about integrity, I would list as a main entry. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 15:45:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Data base Indexing Advice ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Recently there have been several "indexers wanted" ads posted to Index-L involving data base indexing. For the benefit of anyone interested in getting involved in these projects here's a few brief thoughts. I used to do a *lot* of this type work before I got into back-of-the-book indexing. I even gave a preconference talk at the 1993 ASI conference on the (in my view) numerous pitfalls and obstacles to freelance success in data base A&I (abstracting and indexing). While I bet there are many new indexers who would be well-suited to this work, I just want to be sure they have their eyes wide open going in. 1) There appears to be 2 types of such "indexers wanted" data base situations: A) Established firms getting into a new area of coverage or expanding an existing program, and B) Individuals or small concerns who envision themselves as "Information entrepreneurs" who are trying to put together some sort of coverage package for an existing data base producer. While even with the first type of situation the deal is far from one of the "done" variety, situations of the second type often have an extremely poor prognosis of actually coming to fruition. In either case, call for information but don't under any circumstances promise to commit any percentage of your time on a project before you've got you're feet wet. And definitely don't go buy a new house on the basis of someone telling you how much work is going to be available shortly. If I had a penny for every time I've heard that.... oh well you know the drill! 2) Don't depend on the income. This type of work is incredibly fickle. Some of it is dependent on the Government, and that's all that needs to be said about that! It can evaporate literally overnight as a data base indexing project I was working on with a top-notch company did recently: Having more-or-less sworn off data base A&I for book indexing, It was with some reluctance that I got involved early this year with Herner & Co., a top-notch information company in D.C., on their indexing project for NASA's Scientific and Technical Information data base. It was an opportunity to read some cutting edge astronomical material (I'm an amateur astronomer) and get some steady income. After about 6 months working on it, and just as I was getting up to speed, guess what happened? Due to the NASA cutbacks the project is history: one day they just called everyone up and said "stop working". As a freelancer I'll survive because guess what: I DO BOOK INDEXING!!!, but guess what happened to a small staff of technical types who were working at Herner on the project. They were history. Just like that. Another thing that can bite you is that data base A&I has certain cyclical aspects. There are periods of time where management asks: "Couldn't we get college students to do this instead?" or "couldn't we outsource it?" (give it Pakistani college students); in either case for McDonalds wages. This can lead to "work vanishing" situations even when you've been doing a great job. On the other hand, there are many data base projects that *are* reliable. There is a lot of the medical-oriented work for those with the background, much of it based in Philadelphia. One of the recent ads was for this type of project and it might be a great opportunity for those with the right background. 3) It will take anywhere from a few months to a year to get up to speed on the controlled vocabulary and indexing approach for any project. During this time your hourly rate may be depressingly low. This is piece work. Typical pay rates are on the order of $ 3-6/article, but there are huge variations. Some pay extra if you also have to write an abstract, some require both A&I for one low price (sounds like an ad for a department store). Let's assume that you want to make a living wage of $25/hr. Then depending on the pay scale you have on the order of 8-12 minutes to read, possibly abstract, and prepare the index entries for a given article. Often you're required to do some additional administrative junk like reword all symbols or spell out all acronyms that chews up additional time. Given that the article could be anywhere from a few pages to a 40-page review article, this often requires you to cover much more material than you would in the same period of time spent book indexing. On the other hand, in some cases the article may already have a list of key words prepared by the author which helps a lot. And often there will be a series of articles on the same subject which have nearly the same index term list. In book indexing I would describe the process as reading for keywords and concepts. In data base A&I the process is more one of quick scanning for keywords alone. When you get up to speed and can achieve the right "flow" data base A&I can be both intellectually and financially rewarding, but don't expect it to be that way right away! Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:53:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . In-Reply-To: <9511102140.AA05752@symnet.net> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Some years back, I edited a book on VAX assembly language programming. Not exactly my area, but since it was a textbook, the publisher was eager to have a nontechie edit it and report on the problems--aside from the fact that the author's native language wasn't English. After that monumental task was accomplished, the publisher asked me to index the book. And the author offered to mark up a chapter to show me what she considered important. Fine. The chapter arrived. The author had (I kid you not) highlighted every single word on every single page. The chapter was a sea of pink highlighter. Even "a," "an," and "the" made it into the "What's Important in this Book" category. Reaction? The chapter that was to've helped me ended up in the circular file, and I proceeded on alone. The author uttered not a peep when she saw the finished product. And I got paid. I'll bet everybody's got a story like this. Good luck with the rabbi's book! Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "I am not a gourmet chick."--Pearl Bailey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:53:46 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a)" Subject: INDEX-L: error report from EMAIL.UNC.EDU From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . What if your editor (who gave you no instructions in advance) backs up the author who complains after the fact that you didn't include 100% of the nouns, on the grounds that the customer is always right? Better talk about this before you start. It saves a lot of grief afterwards. My personal favorite was the author who complained about an omitted reference to Sulla the dictator. The discussion was about Hellenistic art, and the sentence was "A piece of pottery from the time of Sulla illustrates ... " ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:55:31 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Judy, I would say that unless you need the specific capabilities of Framemaker for the embedded indexing, you should stick with MS Word for Windows. I would say that the all-purpose word processing package is what you are probably looking for, something to put the final touches on an index or to do other correspondence, your resume, etc. Then it's Word you want. Framemaker, or Pagemaker for that matter, are for those who need embedded indexing capabilities, and who plan to use them extensively. Otherwise, it isn't necessary to go to that expense and to deal with a steep learning curve. (Those packages are often used for manuals, such as for computer software -- documents which are revised often and are re-issued again and again with some changes. By embedding tags in the manual text itself, the page number or section number "floats" and is always correct after revision of the document.) If you bought FrameMaker or PageMaker, you still wouldn't have a good word processing program, so you'd have to go out and buy Word (or WordPerfect) anyway. That wouldn't be a wise choice. I hope this helps. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:49:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 13:39:07 EST, Hazel wrote (among other passages that had me in stitches on the floor): >Get hold of a good thesaurus, like Roget's. There's also an excellent >synonym finder; the exact name and the publisher escape me at the moment. Maybe you're referring to _Choose the Right Word--A Modern Guide to Synonyms_ by S. I. Hayakawa published by Perennial Library (Harper & Row, Publishers). Roget's Super Thesaurus seems to have more entries, but this one has 1000 essays defining and comparing synonyms. A very cool tool. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:49:53 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 13:41:26 EST, you write: >It all depends on why you are buying the product to begin with. FrameMaker is >terribly expensive, hard to learn, and not all that useful for a one person >business. If you are being asked to use it for a project, that's different. >But you will get more use out of Word just in general. I dump indexes into it >all the time from Cindex. Jan, I agree that FrameMaker is terribly expensive ($560+ via mail order) and hard to learn. (I nearly had a nervous breakdown learning it, while doing a project, of course. And a desktop publisher faced with embedding from a page-order sort practically cried on the phone to me for an hour and a half long distance, then told our mutual client he couldn't do it. It's not for the fainthearted.) Its usefulness for a one-person business is another question. Like you, I would never advise anyone to just go out and buy FrameMaker unless they had enough FrameMaker indexing projects already committed to make it profitable. However, even with the purchase cost and $800+ for more RAM, it turned out profitable for this one-person business. (I had a lot of work promised for FrameMaker and was able to nudge another client from Word to FrameMaker which was the final destination of their Word files anyway.) Not being a masochist (embedded indexing is *not* fun), I haven't made it even more profitable by actively marketing my FrameMaker-indexing capability, but who knows about someone else? I met an indexer who actually likes embedding!!!!!!!! :-D Of course, anyone considering this or any type of embedded indexing should charge several dollars more per page as it is labor-intensive. An advantage of doing FrameMaker or PageMaker indexes in particular is that you already have camera-ready copies of your indexes hot off your printer to use as samples. No need to beg portfolio copies and photocopy them. >I might suggest you also take a look at PageMaker. It at least has a Show >Index dialog box that allows you to view and edit the index in context while >you are building it. One big consideration for anyone getting into embedded indexing is having the same software your clients use (unless you're indexing your own materials, like JoAnn who started this thread), otherwise you can't embed for them. But PageMaker sounds so good, at least for editing, that I'm now wondering how to nudge my FrameMaker clients over to PageMaker. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:50:33 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 13:41:27 EST, you write: >I don't understand Wildefire's point about using both dedicated software and >embedded indexing? Why to the job twice, if you've first used dedicated >software and completely edited the results? > > Oops! I guess I wasn't clear enough in my reply. But is your question, why embed? Or is it why edit twice? If your question is why embed, please see Jan Wright's first response in this thread. (If you don't still have it, email me privately.) If your question is why edit twice... You need to fully edit the index in the dedicated software where it is a thousand times easier to do so because you have the index on the screen in front of you and can edit entries directly. Also, in editing an index, you often reword or delete entries that are targets of cross-references. In dedicated software, you can run an automatic cross-reference check but you cannot do that in other products. But, no matter how perfectly you edited the index in Macrex or Cindex, unless you are an absolutely perfect typist, you will introduce errors in the embedding process that will require editing in FrameMaker, Word, or whatever you used. In these products, you do not have the index on the screen while you are actually making changes to the tags and those changes aren't reflected in the actual index until you recompile the index--a tedious, time-consuming process even on a fast machine with a lot of RAM. Believe me, when recompiling an average-sized index on a 486-66 with 24 Megs of RAM, I use that opportunity to change CDs in the stereo, get another cup of coffee, etc. only to return to the machine and it's *still* generating the index. (Haven't done it yet on the Pentium.) So, you're definitely not going to do that after every entry you edit. Thus you want to keep the need for editing the embedded index to an absolute minimum. The only reason that I even recommend this two-step process is because some (thankfully few) of my clients want embedded indexes, but they still deserve quality indexes. On the last embedded index I did, I didn't follow my own advice (being it was a tutorial on the same subject of the book immediately preceding it), developed a major structural flaw in the from-scratch embedded index, and experienced a huge nightmare fixing it. See also wailing and gnashing of teeth; hemorrhaging money on indexing projects;... Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:50:55 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: INDEX-L: error report from EMAIL.UNC.EDU In-Reply-To: <199511102154.NAA32571@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > From: Roberta Engleman > Subject: Re: Beginner says: I've got the Rabbi's book . . . > > What if your editor (who gave you no instructions in advance) backs up > the author who complains after the fact that you didn't include 100% of > the nouns, on the grounds that the customer is always right? Better talk > about this before you start. It saves a lot of grief afterwards. My > personal favorite was the author who complained about an omitted > reference to Sulla the dictator. The discussion was about Hellenistic > art, and the sentence was "A piece of pottery from the time of Sulla > illustrates ... " I always ask the editor what is expected, and ask for a copy of the previous index (if available), and ask for any author or reader comments on the old index. In most cases, the author is NOT the "customer"--the publisher is, and the publisher's representative (the editor, in this case) ought to have enough understanding of what constitutes a good index to know that including every noun or every passing reference to a proper name is NOT proper practice. Once the situation has occurred, of course, it becomes somewhat ticklish. I think I would try to clarify what constitutes a good index, without being offensive, of course. In some way, you've got to stand up for a good job properly done, even if you lose the argument in the end. The best tack is prevention, IMO. You can tell in your first discussion with the editor just how much he/she knows about indexing, and what the publisher and author expect. If there is any serious disparity between what you know to be the right way and what the actual expectations are, offer to do a chapter or two as a sample. This has worked wonders for me in the past. Almost always, both the author and the editor are delighted with the sample (done my way, which is the right way ;-> ), and you then achieve instant agreement on how the rest of the work is to proceed. You still don't make a Big Announcement that you left out some nouns, or some proper names. You simply let the sample work its magic. If it's good, you've sold the rest of the job done correctly. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:51:06 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Rate Survey ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Just a few weeks ago, we were all agog over the possibility of a rate survey. What's happened with this idea? If help is needed, I'd be glad to volunteer. This issue has come up for me because a longtime client recently instituted a new policy of asking for a telephone (or fax) quote before assigning the work...even to old, tried-and-true indexers. I gladly complied, and then tried to cover all the bases by adding a statement that this quote was based on telephone information and not on seeing any pages or being able to make a firm estimation of the depth of indexing required. I added that I would confirm the quote upon receipt of the first batch of chapters, but I felt rather as if I had left myself open for problems down the road. I'm also wondering what common practice is about raising rates to old-time customers. It's easy enough to ask for a higher rate when you are working on a book that is clearly more complex than your normal assignment, but what about the basic "bench rate" for the standard job? I've been working for some companies for 15 years and of course I've raised my rates over time, but I'm becoming more aware that I'm on the low end of the pay scale and I'm not liking it. I'd like to boost my "standard" book-indexing rate a fair amount. Any suggestions on how the best way to approach this is, with good old clients? |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:51:26 ECT Reply-To: grant@onyxgfx.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Grant Hogarth Organization: Onyx Graphics Corp. Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker (& live books) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Just to add yet another $.01 to the thread.... Judy... Having read (and re-read) the original posts, I would agree with Jan and Janet that what will (for the moment) serve you best is MSWord. You may need/want to move to another program in the future (such as FrameMaker), but for getting started, and for working on "dead" documents, MSWord is more than enough. For "Live" docs, you need to have embedded links, such as FM or Interleaf provide. Grant =================================== Grant Hogarth, Information Services Onyx Graphics Corp. Midvale, UT www.onyxgfx.com ftp.onyxgfx.com #include ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:51:43 ECT Reply-To: grant@onyxgfx.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Grant Hogarth Organization: Onyx Graphics Corp. Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker (for indexing) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Jan... I must (gently and respectfully) take issue with some of your statements. 1. FM is not really all that more expensive than MSWord. You get a lot more features, and I would dread actually trying to *write* a manual in MSWord . 2. Perhaps it's just expereince, but I find FM to be *very* easy to use, quite intuitive, and exceptionally powerful. That said, I would not buy it *just* to do indexing (Cindex or Macrex are much better tools for that). 3. Indexing in FM is (IMHO...and I *am* a frame advocate) *MUCH* easier than indexing in MSWord. The tagging is simple and clean, and there is a lot of power there. You can generate lists of just the index entry text, format the entries, sort them, etc. 4. Compiling (on my thrashed out 486/66) an index for a 350page book takes about 2-3min...not a long wait at all...especially when I can also compile an index for just a single chapter in a book (in even less time) for proofing. Anyways, that's just my $.02... Grant =================================== Grant Hogarth, Information Services Onyx Graphics Corp. Midvale, UT www.onyxgfx.com ftp.onyxgfx.com #include ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:52:15 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 15:53:58 EST, Jan wrote: >5. Keeping the indexer out of the files until they are stable. If you need >embedded codes, but you also need to be doing last minute art changes, >ragging the text correctly, getting output to the printer, fixing color >separations, etc., you can't have the indexer working with the files for >three weeks right at the time you need the files onsite for tweaking. >Embedding later, after writing the index in a stand-alone app, means that you >can be embedding the index after the printed portion of the book is all set, >but before you send it to a translater. It puts the embedding stage a little >later in the process where it doesn't impact things as much. Awesome list of reasons, Jan! This last point is exactly how and why I was able to move one client from having me index in Word to FrameMaker where it was much better for both of us. This does work in the real world. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:52:30 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 08:59:16 EST, Judy wrote: >I was planning to go out to buy MS Word until I read Lynn M.'s posting >regarding her preference for Framemaker in her reply about indexing live >manuals. I would like to hear other opinions about Word vs. Framemaker (or >other software) for indexing purposes. >(I have Macrex). I have been using Works up until now which doesn't seem up >to the job. Judy, If money is no object, I'd highly recommend FrameMaker V5 over MS Word 6.0. I don't have comparative prices handy, but I suspect that Frame is 2 - 3 times the price of MS Word. FrameMaker is a *much* more powerful program, and a capable tool for *large* technical manuals. It can easily handle books of 500 pages or more which consist of many chapters. It's indexing tool is much easier to use, and to edit, as Lynn mentioned. I'd also much rather use Frame if I had to create tables and graphics (and I always do) in the technical manual. I hope this helps somewhat; feel free to ask if you have more specific questions. Peg Mauer (pmauer@aol.com) Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:52:45 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pmauer@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-10 16:55:44 EST, Janet Perlman wrote: >snip... >If you bought FrameMaker or PageMaker, you still wouldn't have a good word >processing program, so you'd have to go out and buy Word (or WordPerfect) >anyway. That wouldn't be a wise choice. I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Janet on this point. I don't get a commission from Frame, but it's a *very good and very powerful* publishing program. PageMaker may be considered a page layout program more than a word processing program, but FrameMaker is a heavy duty tool for heavy duty projects. I've used FrameMaker and FrameBuilder (the SGML version of FrameMaker) for *years* and I'm familiar with it's power and capabilities. You may need projects or applications to justify the cost of FrameMaker, but you definitely wouldn't need MS Word if you had FrameMaker. (Although I don't know the price of FrameMaker off hand, I recently paid $1600 for FrameBuilder; I know that FrameMaker costs less.) I have created indexes in FrameMaker and MS Word, and agree that it's easier to create an index in a dedicated indexing package like CINDEX, but for on-line manuals and frequently-revised manuals, I create the imbedded index entries in Frame or Word. I hope this helps rather than confuses the original question. Peg Mauer (pmauer@aol.com) Communication Link ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:53:03 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard S. Day" Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On 10 November at 08:57, you wrote: > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > I was planning to go out to buy MS Word until I read Lynn M.'s posting > regarding her preference for Framemaker in her reply about indexing live > manuals. I would like to hear other opinions about Word vs. Framemaker > (or other software) for indexing purposes. > (I have Macrex). I have been using Works up until now which doesn't seem > up to the job. Judy You need to ask yourself, "what will I do with this software?" If you want to compose a book, index it and prepare it for print, FrameMaker can be a good choice. FrameMaker is in a category of software which can be loosely described as "desktop publishing" and which includes such other programs as Pagemaker, Quark Express, Corel Ventura Publisher and Interleaf's line. Word, like WordPerfect, Ami Pro/Word Pro and DeScribe, is primarily a word processor: well suited to letters and reports, but somewhat capable of many desktop publishing tasks, too. None of these programs is optimized for indexing although all contain some facilities for the task. I am not a professional indexer; I am a software publisher who happens to also produce manuals and marketing literature. I use both Word and FrameMaker, and have some familiarity with all the packages mentioned above. If you need to do desktop publishing, and assuming your budget does not run to the very high end (Interleaf), FrameMaker, Ventura or PageMaker would be good choices. But bear in mind, these programs have quite strong import filters (so you can get text from some other format into their format), but weak export filters -- you may not be able to get your work back out into another format. The word processors are generally a bit better on the import-export front; a bit weaker at handling very large text files and complex formatting. Bottom line: if indexing is what you do, go for a software package which is optimized for the task. I have seen Cindex and Macrex (sp?) mentioned often enough in this list to suspect they are among the better programs in this field. And if you need better word processing than Works provides, Word will probably be the easiest package to change to -- but do not expect too many bells and whistles on the indexing front! Hope this is of some help. Ric Day MBF Systems Corp. Electronic document distribution. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:53:29 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: one more question ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks to everyone for your very helpful suggestions! May I ask another question? How ridiculous would it be if I put a note at the beginning of the index saying that in the case of the various towns, locators without subheadings refer to passing mention of the town only? Or should I really go back and check that some of the locators contain passing mention that is not worth including, and just delete those? If this would not be a ridiculous thing to do, any suggestions on wording? I have ended up with each town having anywhere from 3 to 20 locators, with an average of two thirds of them attached to subheads. The ones with subheads aren't the problem, of course. Rachel Rachel Rice Martha's Vineyard Island rachelr@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:53:47 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Change of e-mail address (temporarily?) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Sorry to bother the list with another personal-type message. My ISP, SymNet, has been down for about 30 hours. When I send "HELP!" messages to SymNet from my Florida State University account, my messages bounce back. Not a good sign. So, if anyone has been trying to contact me in the past while and hasn't heard from me, I've been out of cyberspace. For the time being, please write to me at hblumber@mailer.fsu.edu I apologize for the inconvenience and confusion. And I especially apologize to my USDA Basic Indexing students, who may have been trying to get through to me, to no avail. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hblumber@mailer.fsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:54:21 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Macrex, sale of ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Craig Brown, who uses AOL, kindly forwarded this note from Gale Rhoades, director of Macrex Sales and Support, to me. I'm passing it on in case anyone's interested in purchasing my copy of Macrex. If anyone has tried to write to me at my SymNet address and has had a message bounced back, well, it looks like my ISP has disappeared from the face of the earth. Please write to me again at my Florida State University address: hblumber@mailer.fsu.edu Forwarded message from Gale Rhoades: >In recognition of Hazel's dramatic professional change (from indexing to vet >tech), we will require the purchaser to sign a license agreement and then we >will transfer the full license priveleges to the buyer. > >Gale Rhoades >Director >Macrex Sales & Support Hazel (who hates being thrown out of cyberspace) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:18:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alison Chipman Subject: Word Indexing function Dear Fellow Indexers, I've followed with interest the various conversations on embedded indexing that have appeared on the list from time to time. Although I prefer using Cindex, it's occurred to me that it would be worthwhile at least learning something about the process, should it eventually become "the way to go". My workstation already has Microsoft Word for Windows, which I use very little. However, from interest, I have tried to use it's embedded indexing function two or three times, utterly without success. Putting in index entries was fairly easy, if cumbersome, but I could never actually cause the index to appear, neither on screen nor in hard copy. The office manual for Word lacks information on this function, aside from simply telling you that it's one option on one of the menus. Nothing said about how to actually cause the index to print out or to appear on screen. Does anyone know of published material, something along the lines of Word for Dummies, or The Idiot's Word, that offers substantial information on the Word indexing function? I'd greatly appreciate receiving citations to any such material. Thanks in advance. Alison Chipman achipman@aat.getty.edu There once was a clever indexer, Who swore that no book could perplex her. "I just analyze 'em, "Then re-synthesize 'em. "And I wish that they'd make 'em complexer!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:19:41 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Apology for lack of passing mentions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Rachel Rice writes: > How ridiculous would it be if I put a note at the beginning of the index > saying that in the case of the various towns, locators without subheadings > refer to passing mention of the town only? I don't think it would be "ridiculous," but I also don't think that the message would communicate anything to the index user that would help him or her take advantage of it. In fact, if I were looking a note that explicitly said certain information in the book was not indexed, I'd probably be annoyed (were I not a sympathetic indexer myself!). Thus, if I couldn't find what I wanted in the index, I'd be forced to assume that it's still probably in the book, and now I'd have to start searching for it. Thus to the nonindexer, a note like that might be misleading. If you have confidence that the passing mentions provide nothing that a reader might want, then rest assured you are probably right. Why cause trouble by encouraging readers to second-guess you? On the other hand, if a passing mention does end up in the index, so what? I would rather have a reader annoyed that time was wasted looking up something useless than annoyed that he or she has to page through the book looking for something that "should" have been indexed. That is, I would rather err by slightly overindexing than by slightly underindexing. (Grossly overindexing and grossy underindexing are both equally unacceptable.) - Seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:19:58 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Raising rates In-Reply-To: <199511131601.AA27629@mailer.fsu.edu> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Sonsie C. Conroy wrote: > I'm also wondering what common practice is about raising rates to > old-time customers. It's easy enough to ask for a higher rate when you > are working on a book that is clearly more complex than your normal > assignment, but what about the basic "bench rate" for the standard job? My practice has been to raise my rates every January 1. I warn my clients in advance (say, around September or October) that I'll be charging more starting January 1. Perhaps I've been overly conservative, but I've been upping my rates by twenty-five cents per indexable page each year. I keep on raising my rates until my clients scream that they can't pay any more. Some clients have, unfortunately, never been able to pay my base rate. But for one reason or another (I like them, they pay on time, their books are fun to work on, they're a small press with little money, or whatever), I've kept on working for them. Other clients, who *can* pay what I ask, take up the slack. But when someone offers me absurdly low per-page rates, the answer's "no." Hazel (currently at hblumber@mailer.fsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:20:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan V. Pulley" Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc. Subject: Re: seminar/author-index dispute ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm attending the "Indexing Technical Documentation" seminar at Beltsville, MD this Saturday. Is anyone else on this list going to be there? Also, on the most recent thread about indexing and an author feeling it is not comprehensive enough. I indexed a book on hypnosis once (it was the same book I copyedited). When finished, the author said it wasn't comprehensive enough and wanted me to include single word references, etc. The publisher reviewed his complaint and paid me in full (they felt the index was very complete). However, they did not use my index, but used one he did. I'm sure he did it on his own time and did not get paid, so aside from deadline restraints the publiser had nothing to lose. It's a joy to communicate! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:20:38 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan V. Pulley" Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc. Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker (for indexing) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Ummm - I'm a technical writer and do my own indexing. We use WordPerfect and get very professional looking documentation (the index is not very sophisticated, however). Also, we use PageMaker for our product manuals. I've never used Word - but, until this list never thought there was much difference between WP and Word. Wrong, huh? It's a joy to communicate! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:20:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Near-horror story ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I know that Halloween's past, but I thought I'd send in a sorta horror story, anyway. I recently indexed a book that was, at least for me, quite difficult. I was relieved that the author and the editor were really pleased with the index. Payment arrived extremely quickly. The editor called me again with another indexing project. Similar topic to the one I'd found so difficult. Longer book. Many, many indexable footnotes. And the editor thought this book would be yet more difficult to index than was the previous one. And then the editor offered me forty cents per indexable page LESS than I'd been offered for the previous difficult project! "The budget just can't handle any more," quoth the editor. We haggled a bit on price, the editor consulted the powers that be, but they wouldn't budge. More work. Less money. Makes sense, huh? I turned down the project. I think the editor was puzzled about why I said no. Hazel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:24:52 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@aol.com Subject: Re: Indexing Live Manuals ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks for an answer to "why edit /embedded indexes/ twice?" The pain of embedded indexing makes me wonder if even clients believe it's worth the effort and particularly the added cost. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:25:04 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-13 10:52:45 EST, you write: >One big consideration for anyone getting into embedded indexing is having the >same software your clients use (unless you're indexing your own materials, >like JoAnn who started this thread), otherwise you can't embed for them. But >PageMaker sounds so good, at least for editing, that I'm now wondering how to >nudge my FrameMaker clients over to PageMaker. ;-D I doubt anyone could nudge their clients into one of the other. It seems to be a really hot issue! Frame does things that PageMaker can only dream about. Vice versa, PageMaker does things that Frame can only dream about. Each one has their uses. Frame is exceptional for long documents, character-based styles, equation production, conditional text, and hypertext links. For manipulating mass quantities of text, it can't be beat. PageMaker's color separations, freedom of design, typographic controls, and user interface for layout make it the choice for design-intensive pieces. Word can sort and store data in tables, does phenomenal searching and replacing when I need to convert files from Cindex to Excel, and can save indexes in almost any file format needed. It's kind of a swiss army knife. So each group's got to choose the power they need. Perhaps it's best to have Word, PM and Frame on hand as indexers if your clients work in all three? Massive investment! Jan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:25:16 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@aol.com Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker (for indexing) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 95-11-13 10:54:57 EST, GRANT@onyxgfx.com (Grant Hogarth) writes: >I must (gently and respectfully) take issue with some of your statements. > >1. FM is not really all that more expensive than MSWord. To index-l listers: I replied to Grant's FrameMaker issues extensively offline to him - rather than bombard you all with more Frame vs. Word stuff, send me an email if you are interested and I will forward my replay on to you. Jan JanCW@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:46:51 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Word Vs. Framemaker In-Reply-To: <199511131553.HAA08296@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > >I might suggest you also take a look at PageMaker. It at least has a Show > >Index dialog box that allows you to view and edit the index in context while > >you are building it. > > One big consideration for anyone getting into embedded indexing is having the > same software your clients use (unless you're indexing your own materials, > like JoAnn who started this thread), otherwise you can't embed for them. But > PageMaker sounds so good, at least for editing, that I'm now wondering how to > nudge my FrameMaker clients over to PageMaker. ;-D Lynn...or anyone else who knows...what release of PageMaker is everyone so happy with? I use it regularly for design and page creation when I wear my other hat (graphic designer), but had never considered it for indexing. I'm working on a project for a self-publisher, though, who does use Pagemaker, and I suppose I could do the embedding that way. I'm intrigued. Can somebody fill me in on the PageMaker thing? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:47:12 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Susan V. Pulley" Organization: Accu-Sort Systems, inc. Subject: Re: Apology for lack of passing mentions ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At my company, we're trying very hard to write documentation from the user's perspective - I look at indexing in the same way. As someone who had to do a lot of researching in college, there was nothing more frustrating than looking something up, scanning a page, and finding only a mention of the subject. I ended up only using books that had several pages indexed for the subject I was interested in. Whereas, we sometimes use standard manuals and there's information in there that the user of the purchased system would never use - now, that to me is o.k. because a reader will get more annoyed looking for something and not find it than having to leaf past something he/she has no use for. It's a joy to communicate! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:47:42 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Near-horror story In-Reply-To: <199511132024.MAA02632@callamer.com> ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > > I recently indexed a book that was, at least for me, quite difficult. I > was relieved that the author and the editor were really pleased with the > index. Payment arrived extremely quickly. > > The editor called me again with another indexing project. Similar topic > to the one I'd found so difficult. Longer book. Many, many indexable > footnotes. And the editor thought this book would be yet more difficult > to index than was the previous one. > > And then the editor offered me forty cents per indexable page LESS than > I'd been offered for the previous difficult project! "The budget just > can't handle any more," quoth the editor. We haggled a bit on price, the > editor consulted the powers that be, but they wouldn't budge. More work. > Less money. Makes sense, huh? I turned down the project. I think the > editor was puzzled about why I said no. This wouldn't happen to be a rerun of the infamous Kant project, would it? I would have done the same thing, though I am notoriously weak-willed, especially when money is tight and there are no other projects on the horizon. More and more of my clients are calling to ask for a "bid" or a "quote" for comparison purposes before assigning a job. I feel like it would be a good idea to develop some guidelines to share with them about how I base my prices. For example, it's obvious that requiring two or even three separate indexes (subject, name, etc.) makes for more work, even with dedicated software. Most companies expect to pay extra for this. But I've had some editors who insist that I only index to the level of one subheading. When I've questioned this, they've rather sheepishly explained it's to "save money." When I tell them I don't charge by the number of levels of subheads, they are relieved but also surprised. Are some folks actually dOING this? The ticklish thing, for me, is establishing a real meaning for "light" indexing, "moderately detailed" indexing, and "heavy indexing. Nobody wants to pay for an in-depth index, of course, and most editors insist that all they need is an "average" or "moderate" job. What are the criteria you would use to establish that the job does in fact require heavy indexing as opposed to "average"? Is it the number of entries per page? The number of page references per entry? The level of subheads? The number of lines you end up with? Ultimately, what I'd like to include in my quote form is something like the following: Base rate: $X per page Each separate index: $X per index Indexable footnotes: $X extra per page Indexable chapter b/m $X extra per chapter Light indexing: Subtract $X from the page rate or job rate Heavy indexing: Add $X to page or job rate (And of course include a description of what I mean by "light" and "heavy" indexing) Any suggestions? =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:48:18 ECT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: Acronyms ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Thanks for all the responses about handling acronyms in computer books. I think I was feeling particularly anal the day I posted that message -- I normally don't include the parenthetical in the cross reference either! Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty