========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:09:47 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Passing on request for opinions.. Mindy, re >I'm passing on a message that was posted on the COPYEDITING list. I'm sure >_someone_ out there has an opinion on this. :-). Please respond to Mindy, >not me or the list. Do NOT confuse the "index" made by a computer program that is part of a word processing package with content indexing done by a professional. The first is really a concordance, compiled by the words (or phrases) marked as they appear in the text. This system works fine for any book that is like a manual (for example, like a computer text book), but does not work for any book that had a lot of content that is not necessarily described by particular words. For instance, you may find a whole page devoted to the history of something, but no mention of the word history in the text. A computer program does not pick up this sort of thing, whereas a human indexer does. Whether a word processing package can do a rasonable job depends on the type of material. Joan ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen Phone: 06 2492994 R.G. Menzies Library Building Fax: 06 2490058 Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:29:35 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Espen S. Ore" Subject: ALLC/ACH '96 Call for Papers This message has been posted on various humanities lists. Please excuse me if you have already seen it. Espen Ore ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ASSOCIATION FOR LITERARY AND LINGUISTIC COMPUTING ASSOCIATION FOR COMPUTERS AND THE HUMANITIES JOINT INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ALLC-ACH '96 JUNE 25-29, 1996 UNIVERSITY OF BERGEN, NORWAY CALL FOR PAPERS This conference -- the major forum for literary, linguistic and humanities computing -- will highlight the development of new computing methodologies for research and teaching in the humanities, the development of significant new computer-based resources for humanities research, especially focusing on developing applications. TOPICS: The Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing and the Association for Computing and the Humanities invite submissions on topics and applications focused on the humanities disciplines, such as: languages and literature, history, philosophy, music, art, linguistics, anthropology and archaeology, creative writing, cultural studies, etc. We are interested in receiving technical proposals that focus on the cutting edge issues of the application of scientific tools and approaches to humanities disciplines; discipline-based proposals that focus on some of the more traditionally defined applications of computing in humanities disciplines, including text encoding, hypertext, text corpora, computational lexicography, statistical models, and syntactic, semantic, stylistic and other forms of text analysis; broad library and research-based proposals that focus on significant issues of text documentation and information retrieval; and tools-focused proposals that offer innovative and substantial applications and uses for humanities-based teaching and research, throughout the academic and research worlds. Submissions on humanities computing in developing countries and software/courses/courseware in undergraduate education are welcomed. The official language is English. The deadline for submissions is 30 NOVEMBER 1995. REQUIREMENTS: Proposals should describe substantial and original work. Those that concentrate on the development of new computing methodologies should make clear how the methodologies are applied to research and/or teaching in the humanities, and should include some critical assessment of the application of those methodologies in the humanities. Those that concentrate on a particular application in the humanities (e.g., a study of the style of an author) should cite traditional as well as computer-based approaches to the problem and should include some critical assessment of the computing methodologies used. All proposals should include conclusions and references to important sources. INDIVIDUAL PAPERS: Abstracts of 1500-2000 words should be submitted for presentations of thirty minutes including questions. SESSIONS: Proposals for sessions (90 minutes) are also invited. These should take the form of either: (a) Three papers. The session organizer should submit a 500-word statement describing the session topic, include abstracts of 1000-1500 words for each paper, and indicate that each author is willing to participate in the session; or (b) A panel of up to six speakers. The panel organizer should submit an abstract of 1500 words describing the panel topic, how it will be organized, the names of all the speakers, and an indication that each speaker is willing to participate in the session. POSTERS AND DEMONSTRATIONS ALLC-ACH '96 will include poster presentations and software and project demonstrations (either stand-alone or in conjunction with poster presentations) to give researchers an opportunity to present late-breaking results, significant work in progress, well-defined problems, or research that is best communicated in conversational mode. By definition, poster presentations are less formal and more interactive than a standard talk. Poster presenters will have the opportunity to exchange ideas one-on-one with attendees and to discuss their work in detail with those most deeply interested in the same topic. Posters are actually several large pieces of paper that present an overview of a topic or a problem. Poster presenters are given space to display two or three posters, and may provide handouts with examples or more detailed information. Poster presenters must be present at their posters at a specific time during the conference to describe their work and answer questions, but posters will remain displayed throughout the conference. Specific times will also be assigned for software or project demonstrations. Further information on poster presentations is available from the Program Committee chair. Posters proposals and software and project demonstrations will be accepted until January 15, 1996 to provide an opportunity for submitting very current work that need not be written up in a full paper. Poster or software/project demonstration proposals should contain a 300 to 500 word abstract in the same format described below for paper proposals. Proposals for software or project demonstrations should indicate the type of hardware that would be required if the proposal is accepted. Doctoral students are encouraged to consider poster submission as a viable means for discussing ongoing dissertation research. As part of its commitment to promote the development and application of appropriate computing in humanities scholarship, the Association for Literary and Linguistic Computing will award up to five bursaries of up to 500 GB pounds each to students and young scholars who have papers accepted for presentation at the conference. Applicants must be members of ALLC, and must be aged 30 years or less at the start of the conference. Those wishing to be considered for an award should indicate this in their conference proposal. The ALLC will make the awards after the Programme Committee have decided which proposals are to be accepted. Recipients will be notified as soon as possible thereafter. A participant in a multi-author paper is eligible for an award, but it must be clear that s/he is contributing substantially to the paper. FORMAT OF SUBMISSIONS Electronic submissions are strongly encouraged. Please pay particular attention to the format given below. Submissions which do not conform to this format will be returned to the authors for reformatting, or may not be considered if they arrive very close to the deadline. All submissions should begin with the following information: TITLE: title of paper KEYWORDS: three keywords (maximum) describing the main contents of the paper AUTHOR(S): names of authors AFFILIATION: of author(s) CONTACT ADDRESS: full postal address of main author followed by other authors E-MAIL: electronic mail address of main author (for contact), followed by other authors (if any) FAX NUMBER: of main author PHONE NUMBER: of main author 1. Electronic submissions Electronic submissions are accepted as ASCII-files (please specify if encoding schemes have been used for characters outside ASCII range), MS-Word for Windows or Macintosh, and WordPerfect for Windows. Those who submit abstracts electronically, especially abstracts containing graphics and tables are kindly asked to fax a copy of the abstract in addition to the one sent electronically. Notes, if needed, should take the form of endnotes rather than footnotes. Electronic submissions should be sent to: allc-ach96@hd.uib.no with the subject line " Submission for ALLC-ACH96". 2. Paper submissions Submissions should be typed or printed on one side of the paper only, with ample margins. Six copies should be sent to ALLC-ACH96 (Paper submission) Espen Ore Norwegian Computing Centre for the Humanities Harald Haarfagresgt. 31 N-5007 Bergen NORWAY EQUIPMENT AVAILABILITY Presenters will have available an overhead projector (video based - overheads on plain paper rather than transparencies), a slide projector, a data projector which will display Macintosh, DOS/Windows, and video (but not simultaneously), an Internet connected computer which will run Macintosh OS programs or DOS/Windows programs, and a VHS (PAL) videocassette recorder. NTSC format will be available; if you anticipate needing NTSC, please note this information in your proposal. Requests for other presentation equipment will be considered by the local organizer; requests for special equipment should be directed to the local organizer no later than December 31, 1995. DEADLINES Proposals for papers and sessions November 30, 1995 Proposals for poster presentations January 15, 1996 Notification of acceptance February 15, 1996 PUBLICATION A selection of papers presented at the conference will be published in the series Research in Humanities Computing edited by Susan Hockey and Nancy Ide and published by Oxford University Press. Accepted abstracts will also be published on the WWW server at the Norwegian Computing Centre for the Humanities (URL=http://www.hd.uib.no/allc-ach96.html) INTERNATIONAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE Proposals will be evaluated by a panel of reviewers who will make recommendations to the Program Committee comprised of: Jan-Gunnar Tingsell, Gothenburg University (ALLC) (chair) Chuck Bush, Brigham Young University (ACH), Gordon Dixon, Manchester Metropolitan University (ALLC), Nancy Ide, Vassar College (ACH), Willard McCarty, University of Toronto (ACH), Elli Mylonas, Brown University (ACH), Lisa Lena Opas, University of Joensuu (ALLC), Harold Short, Kings College (ALLC) Local Organizer: Espen Ore, University of Bergen (ALLC) LOCATION The University of Bergen was founded in 1946 but its history goes back to 1825 with the founding of the Bergen Museum. The University has an enrolment of some 17,000 students. It is located in the central part of the city of Bergen. Hosting this conference, the Norwegian Computing Centre for the Humanities was founded in 1972 and is located at the University of Bergen. Bergen, Norway's second largest city with a population of 220,000, was founded in 1071 according to the sagas. The city was an important Hanseatic trading centre and has retained an international profile that dates back to the early Middle Ages. There are direct flights to Bergen from Copenhagen, London, Oslo, and Paris. There is also a train connection with Oslo, and a ferry between Newcastle and Bergen. Hotel rooms in different price ranges will be available within walking distance from the conference center, and economically priced student accommodation will be available outside central Bergen. It is expected at this time that the fee for early registration for the conference will be in the US$125 to US$150 range, with an additional late registration fee. Detailed information about the conference will be made available in January or February of 1996. For further information please communicate with: Espen Ore Local Organizer, ALLC-ACH '96 Norwegian Computing Centre for the Humanities Harald Haarfagresgt. 31 N-5007 Bergen NORWAY Phone: + 47 55 21 28 65 Fax: + 47 55 32 26 56 E-mail: Espen.Ore@hd.uib.no http://www.hd.uib.no/allc-ach96.html Please give your name, full mailing address, telephone and fax numbers, and e-mail address, with any enquiry. ALLC-ACH '96 info-list: If you want to receive information about the conference via e-mail you can subscribe to the mailing list by sending an empty e-mail message (from your own e-mail address) to: allc-ach96-request@hd.uib.no ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 03:50:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades <74744.415@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Passing on request for opinions.. Joan Jensen said: >> Do NOT confuse the "index" made by a computer program that is part of a word processing package with content indexing done by a professional. The first is really a concordance, compiled by the words (or phrases) marked as they appear in the text. This system works fine for any book that is like a manual (for example, like a computer text book), << I am primarily a computer consultant and do a lot of hand holding and training which would NOT be necessary if more software and hardware manuals included a decent index. Sorry Joan, but I cannot think of a single book which would be helped by a concordance and even a "new" indexer can do better than any automated indexing program I've seen! If manuals (including the index) were reviewed along with the product and under the same strict guidelines, I suspect that a lot of popular products would not do as well in the computer industry. Too many words and terms are acronyms or were "borrowed" from English with the result that the average user (and many experts) have no idea how to find needed information when it is needed. Who has the time to read 300K of on-line files or an 800 page manual to find out how to do some simple task? Gale Rhoades ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 05:26:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fran Freiman Subject: Re: Money Magazine article on... Janet Perlman wrote: >...What I meant was that the significance of the $50,000 must be taken in >context with the location where the person is living. Whereas you and I >might find that figure high, the person quoted was in California, where it >isn't a high income at all... I didn't think I'd be adding a comment to this particular topic, but when Janet spoke of location being part of the context, it jogged a memory. In 1987 my husband was offered a job with a $5,000 "raise" to move from Michigan, where the company was going under, to move to San Jose, CA. We sold our house for $80,000 and bought a tinier one for $150,000. The $5,000 raise did not cover it, but a secure job was better than the insecure one. I do free-lance editing. Seems to me I was making $12/hour for copyediting. I talked another publisher up to $16. The $12 job paid in 14 to 21 days. The $16 job paid in 60, then 90, then 120+ days. I quit working for the $16 employer. I didn't get more because my cost of living was much higher. Neither did my husband. I realize I was in something of a rut, but truth be told, that $12 employer only doles out $15 now in 1995. That's in the Midwest. And I've talked to editors in NYC who pay worse! So I've concluded that the profession is stingy (and read the CompuServe Writers & Editors group in the Working From Home forum--they tell the same story!). For myself, I still work some for the $15 employer, when I have the time. They usually have me straighten out messes wrought by other copy editors, even more poorly paid than I am. I haven't severed my connections because the work *is* interesting, but I feel much better compensated in the technical communication business. Indexing isn't a big part of my work (I'm mainly an editor, but I read the posts on this list to keep informed on how you pros do it). But compensation is a concern for us all. And location didn't seem to differ whether we lived in the Midwest or in Silicon Valley. I suspect it has more to do with savvy. I know I lacked it then; I feel I have more of it now. And please don't think I'm implying that poorly paid people don't have it upstairs. I'm just telling you my memory. Good luck to us all! Fran Freiman ffreiman@ix.netcom.com --------------------Reply Separator-------------------- Fran Freiman, Editor/Owner ffreiman@ix.netcom.com WordRight Editorial Cons. Svcs. (Houston, TX) >>>>>>Same Email address for Joe and Matt Freiman<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: KAREN INSCOE Please unsubscribe me from the INDEX-L Listserv. Thankyou. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:25:10 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gail Thornburg Subject: Re[2]: Money Magazine article Who produces Macrex? Does it run in Windows? Gail >documents. After all, I must first do the index in Macrex to get a >decent quality index, then embed from a page-order sort. Sometimes >with all the work involved, I average minimum wage. ;-D >Lynn Moncrief >TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 05:52:11 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs You wrote: > >Jackson Yang asked: > you >can start an indexing business using index cards and/or a word processing >program. You don't *absolutely* have to have either a computer or indexing >software. An ASI member in NYC has produced a detailed document explaining >how to use WordPerfect for indexing, and I confess my very first >professional indexing job was done in WordPerfect! Doing your first one or >two paying jobs this way certainly won't hurt you. Now that that's out of >the way let's get on to reality: > > I don't disagree, but eventually you will want dedicated software and buy CINDEX or Macrex or some such. Dedicated software, although running about $500, is usually available in a demo version for about $50. I would recommend buying the demo, learning the package, then buying the full-blown version when you schedule your first paying index. This just shortens the path to getting where you ultimately want to be. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:06:38 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs You wrote: > >You MUST have at least a 286 with a hard drive that will hold your >indexing program, the resultant index files, plus whatever other programs >you may need (word processing comes to mind)...about the oldest technology >you can find even in used computers. So you're not going to have to spend >much for the basics. > You don't even need a 286. CINDEX only requires an IBM compatible and DOS 3.0. That runs on even an older 8088. My current setup is: - 486/66 with 16meg RAM, 512meg disk, CD-ROM, tape backup - CINDEX for indexing, My Invoices for invoicing, Quicken (the personal version) for managing money, AmiPro for word processing, 1-2-3 for spreadsheets, a nifty shareware program called TraxTime for recording time spent on projects, FastTrack scheduler for scheduling work, LOTUS Organizer for personal information management - Custom designed business cards and stationery. - A second-hand 286/12 portable for travelling and general backup to the main machine. - Three printers: laser, 24-pin dot matrix and 9-pin dot matrix - An uninterruptible power source that keeps me running if the power fails. - Fax - Copier - Assorted tables, desks, cabinets, etc. - Online services: AOL and NetCruiser - A rented drop box for a business address and FedEx deliveries I'd guess I have $6,000 - $7,000 invested, but that is after three years. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:26:31 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: indexing choices You wrote: > >>Glenda wrote: >>> >>>I would like to know if there are ways of speeding up indexing without >>>compromising quality.. > I've developed a technique with CINDEX that saves a lot of time, at least in the kind of material I do in software manuals. It might be less effective in other areas. Software manuals often follow what I call a "wallpaper" pattern: The same pattern repeats over many pages. Command reference is a good example. For each command, I would try to create at least three entries: a primary heading of "commands" with the command name as a secondary; the command name as a primary; the purpose of the command as a primary. If a command has more than one purpose or if there are synonyms, there can be more than three entries. Example: a command named RO (stands for read-only) that is used to protect a computer file against being written to. Entries might look like this: commands RO RO command read-only access write protection files protecting security access authorization (You can see where this is going.) In this example, one item generates seven entries, each of which needs spell checking and page verification during the editing phase. Instead of entering all seven on the first pass, I would make one general entry like this: commands RO read-only access write protection files protecting security access authorization During the page-verification step, I now have only one page entry to check. During spell check, I have only one occurrence of odd spellings like RO. Once spelling and page numbers have been verified, I edit this one entry and split it out to its final form. By duplicating and moving text that has already been verified, I create new entries with virtually no chance of introducing new errors. Where the real savings come in is when you have a large number of commands. For instance, I had a book with 250 commands. The first pass generated a primary for "commands" with 250 secondary entries. After spell check and page verification, I just copied the whole group, stripped the primary level and appended the word "command" to each remaining command name. Voila! 250 new entries, already proofed, in a matter of seconds. Compare to typing all those 250 in on the first pass. I credit this technique with raising my pages-per-hour rate by 50%. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:38:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) You wrote: Drivel takes a long time to index too because >> as one wades through it, one is wondering what needs to be indexed >> here. ;-D > This happens a lot in software books. You read something like this: The command "RO filename" indicates that external programs can only access the file specified in "filename" by GET calls. What it is trying to say is: "RO filename" prevents programs from writing to "filename." This ends up as entries for: read-only access write protection security access authorization When I encounter something like this, I read and re-read, saying to myself: "I know what this *says* but what is it *about*? Dick evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:00:58 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM)" Subject: subject/date of money magazine article hello, all- i subscribed to this listserv only recently, and i'm curious about the exact subject and issue date of the money magazine article being discussed. thanks for your help! lauren ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 07:25:16 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article In-Reply-To: <199509151259.HAA00891@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Gail Thornburg wrote: > Who produces Macrex? Does it run in Windows? > > Gail Gail, The following info is taken from the ASI Web Page. Macrex does not run with Windows. The only dedicated indexing software that currently _does_ run with Windows, wINDEX, is also listed below. For a much longer list of indexing software, take a look at the ASI Web Page's "Tools" Page at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ Macrex Bayside Indexing Service P.O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 95015-0051 (415) 756-0821 FAX: (415) 757-1567 Macrex@aol.com wINDEX Watch City Software 24 Harris Street Waltham, MA 02154 (617) 893-0514 -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mrowland@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In a message dated 95-09-14 22:18:24 EDT, sconroy@SLONET.ORG (Sonsie C. Conroy) writes: >Until you can afford a true stand-alone indexing program, you can still >use index cards...probably the best way to learn the business, anyway. >Use any word processing program that can output in ASCII to type your >final work, copy it to disk, and you've produced a new-fangled index in >an old-fashioned way. > > I heartedly agree with Sonsie! Speaking as someone who started out indexing on index cards, I think you learn a lot about indexing style and format, and even about alphabetical order, if you have to create it yourself, rather than rely on an indexing program. While I wouldn't want to index without high-quality indexing software now, I do recommend that beginners try indexing the old-fashioned way before they invest in an expensive software program--in part to see if they like indexing, and in part for the educational value of doing it by hand.. A computer may be another matter. You need very little computer power to run high quality indexing programs, but you may find older computers frustrating because they won't run any of the new software. If you prefer IBM format, I would recommend a "simple" 486 for about $!,200--more if you can afford it, or have other uses for the computer. A laser printer is also a good idea. I find a stand-alone fax essential, but not something you need right away, esp. if you buy a computer with a fax/modem. Marilyn Rowland Indexing and Writing Cape Cod, MA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:55:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Uniformity in subentries In a message dated 95-09-14 20:31:16 EDT, jonathan@MAGNA.COM.AU (Glenda) writes: >Maybe it is because I have trained in the age of 'file >as is', but I can't see that it would ever be better to ignore the >preposition (unless, perhaps, the list of subdivisions is really long, and >probably not even then). I agree with not ignoring the prepositions. I avoid them like crazy, but when I can't, I alphabetize by them. My reasoning on this came after watching users use indexes in usability studies - they struggle hard enough to figure out what we mean when we are being clear, and don't understand subtle rules like that. Just my two cents. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:04:00 PDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs At 05:52 AM 9/15/95 -0700, you wrote: >You wrote: >but eventually you will want dedicated software and >buy CINDEX or Macrex or some such. Dedicated software, although >running about $500 I could not agree more. I began pre-personal computer and with handwritten index cards. The computer and the dedicated software take care of much of the "scut" work, such as alphabetizing and formatting. Intellectual analysis is the unique quality I provide in composing an index. With dedicated software, I can devote a MUCH greater amount of time on intellectual analysis and still produce indexes in less time. I believe it was Nancy Mulvaney who pointed out on this list some time ago, that completely automated indexing (software selecting headings) "might" approximate professional human indexing analysis when and if a system can pass the Turing test. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:01:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article In a message dated 95-09-15 13:20:40 EDT, bero@ALEXIA.LIS.UIUC.EDU (Kari Bero) writes: >> Who produces Macrex? Does it run in Windows? >> >> Gail Just thought I would point out that I run CINDEX under Windows all the time - from the DOS prompt. No problems at all. Macrex probably will do the same things. Jan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:08:21 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Manny Ratafia Organization: Yale University Subject: Better Searching in WordPerfect for Windows I thought members of this list would be interested in our text search shareware for WordPerfect for Windows. CommTech PowerSearch 3.5 for WordPerfect for Windows is now available. This release provides the following capabilities: * allows you to easily build, save, and reuse complex search queries for use with WordPerfect's QuickFinder utility * Since it works inside WordPerfect for Windows, it is easier and quicker to use than other search programs * Gives you simplified and improved access to WordPerfect's search capabilities through an intuitive, self-teaching and efficient design * Use of thesaurus(es) makes searches more complete Feel free to forward this message to any appropriate lists. Manny Ratafia CommTech tmgmail@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu Downloading instructions for SRCHWP35.ZIP: SimTel: ftp to oak.oakland.edu then go to SimTel/win3/wpwin America Online: Select Keyword PC Applications Press Software Libraries button Press Software Search button Enter SRCHWP35.ZIP Download file that is displayed CompuServe: Go winshare Select Search from Library menu Type SRCHWP35.ZIP where it asks for file name Press Search button Retrieve file that is displayed CommTech's BBS at 203/ 495-8604: Log onto BBS Select Files from opening menu Select Access File Download Section Select File Area 1 For more information, send e-mail with "CommTech PowerSearch WP 3.5 Info" in the SUBJECT to tmgmail@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:11:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509150319.UAA16506@callamer.com> Kevin, thanks for stating my own thoughts in a lengthier and more helpful manner. I've always been annoyed at those articles (and those people) that believe if you don't have the latest bells and whistles, you can't do squat. I started in the "shoebox era" with indexing, but my first computer indexes were done in WordPerfect--for a company that paid me, essentially, 75 cents a page! I learned (computers) while I earned, but it wasn't too long before I quit working for peanuts and moved on. Re Cindex or Macrex. Yes, one of these programs is essntial for the professional indexer--but not needed right at the beginning. Go ahead and buy one, but expect to have a steep learning curve and lots of frustration in terms of producing paid work for the first few projects. Rely on your indexing skills rather than the software until you have time and patience to tackle learning and practicing with the powerful programs that will move you ahead in the business. Excellent indexes have been produced by hand for what? 500 years? It pays to start simple and really learn the craft and THEN learn a software program. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:15:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509150439.VAA20074@callamer.com> Lynn, it sounds like you're doing some pretty hefty indexing! I've got FrameMaker, but have yet to install it...I'm currently running Windows quite comfortably with only 4 megs of RAM, but FrameMaker needs 8. So it'll have to wait. I do want to say that I bought and used Macrex quite intensively on my old 286 machine with absolutely no appreciable time lag or problems. I stand by my earlier advice that a 286 is a minimal configuration for a beginner--who will NOT be indexing the kinds of materials you work on. Bubble-jet printers are extremely inexpensive these days, as are fax/modems. I prefer to also have a stand-alone fax machine; you'd be amazed at how many people still like to send information on paper. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:26:19 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: <199509150807.BAA21988@callamer.com> Hear, hear, Gayle! The only manual I own that is even halfway decent regarding its index is the WordPerfect 5.1 book. The newer edition stinks almost as bad as every OTHER software manual I own. Were I not an exceptionally retentive reader (to the point of practically being able to visualize where on a page I saw the information I need), I'd never have been able to learn most of my programs. And since few people can read like that, a good index is an essential part of any manual or textbook. There is NO automated indexing software that works even 1/10th as well as a human with two brain cells to rub together! But, in this cost-cutting era, it's important to keep reminding publishers and writers of this fact. Too many times, authors (in particular, since they generally bear the cost of a professional indexing job) think they have found Nirvana when they discover the "concordance method" of indexing supplied by their word processing software. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:21:24 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: "Pejorative" message Are others receiving the same message from Richard Abrams about pejorative terms in indexing every time they sign on? Mr. Abrams assures me he only sent it once; since I access the Net via Compuserve so I'd like to know if it's a Net problem or a Compuserve problem. You can reply directly to me at 76440.2356 to avoid filling up the list. Thanks. Jessica Milstead ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:39:45 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509151328.GAA09970@callamer.com> Dick, I suppose Macrex (my preferred program) will run without a 286 as well, but I was thinking of what used equipment would be currently available in the resale market AND of reasonable quality. I suppose you could find a non-286 machine out there if you looked really hard, but it would most likely be well over ten years old and probably not real reliable. OTOH, many of us (myself included) have a decent 286 sitting around as a backup. A friend recently offered to sell me her 386 with 4 megs of ram and a nice color monitor for $350. At that kind of price, a 386 is a bargain. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:12:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) Dick Evans wrote: > >I wrote (earlier): >Drivel takes a long time to index too because >>> as one wades through it, one is wondering what needs to be indexed >>> here. ;-D >> To which Dick replied: >This happens a lot in software books. You read something like this: > > The command "RO filename" indicates that external programs can only > access the file specified in "filename" by GET calls. > >What it is trying to say is: "RO filename" prevents programs from >writing to "filename." > >This ends up as entries for: > > read-only access > write protection > security > access authorization > >When I encounter something like this, I read and re-read, saying to >myself: "I know what this *says* but what is it *about*? > Aboutness! That's it!!! :-D Speaking of "about", why do so many non-indexers use that as a subentry?!! (Rhetorical question.) I have an index sitting on my desk that I'm supposed to review in preparation for a workshop on indexing for technical writers. At least, I'll have a chance to do something *about* that. Anyway, I agree with you Dick about the difficulty of indexing such passages, common in software books. But, in my book, that's garden-variety bad writing. The "drivel" I was referring to (an example being my first paragraph) is that peculiar form of bad writing that seems to be becoming more common these days. Are authors now being paid per page? Recently, I've indexed too many books where passage after passage is apropos of nothing. Having asked a thousand times "Where are the copy editors?", I've recently found myself asking "Where are the development editors?" Actually, this response actually belongs in a response to Hazel (our dear curmudgeon) who mentioned the decline of quality in publishing. But to save bandwidth, I won't repeat this there. But I hear you Hazel!! You too, Dick. :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:22:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: indexing choices In-Reply-To: <199509151500.IAA17330@callamer.com> Dick, that's a great idea! I'm sure I can do the same thing in Macrex, and will do some reading in the manual to find out how. I run into that same sort of "wallpaper" pattern in textbooks quite often. Thanks for sharing your technique. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 12:41:29 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. Joan wrote: > > >Do NOT confuse the "index" made by a computer program that is part of a >word processing package with content indexing done by a professional. The >first is really a concordance, compiled by the words (or phrases) marked as >they appear in the text. Joan, I have to put a fine point on this here. ;-D The indexing modules in word processing programs *can* be used to create a decent index. They do permit you to enter whatever string you wish as an index entry. One problem with them is that you're indexing in the dark because you cannot see the index forming while you work unless you constantly regenerate it. And, there are other reasons they don't hold a candle to dedicated indexing software. This is aside from the noxious problem of using them as concordance generators. To get around the "indexing in the dark problem", I first create indexes in Macrex, then embed when required. (Of course this creates yet another problem, which is making two intense indexing passes through the same book with the temptation of constantly tweaking what you've already done so cleanly in dedicated indexing software.) > This system works fine for any book that is like >a manual (for example, like a computer text book), but does not work for >any book that had a lot of content that is not necessarily described by >particular words. For instance, you may find a whole page devoted to the >history of something, but no mention of the word history in the text. A >computer program does not pick up this sort of thing, whereas a human >indexer does. Whether a word processing package can do a rasonable job >depends on the type of material. > >Joan > No, you didn't say that!!!!!!!!! :-D Computer manuals need just as much loving care from professional indexers as other documents. Consider the following synonyms that must be accounted for: deleting, removing, erasing changing, editing, adjusting, modifying number system, radix A concordance generator would throw all of the subentries for these synonyms under all of them, given that writers will use 7 different ways to say the same thing 6 times. Then there is the alphabet soup of acronyms that someone else mentioned here today. Someone in the Society for Technical Communication said, "If they have to refer to the manual, they're already angry." (I know I am because I only read them when I'm paid to do so.) If it's a manual for software used to rescue users from computer crashes or viruses, then it really needs to be indexed six ways to Sunday as these readers are beyond angry and into a terminal state of panic. So, we computer manual indexers have to do everything we can to get the user where he or she wants to go as quickly as possible. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: subject/date of money magazine article In-Reply-To: <9509151649.AA28034@symnet.net> On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM) wrote: > i subscribed to this listserv only recently, and i'm curious about the exact > subject and issue date of the money magazine article being discussed. The article's in the August 1995 Money magazine. It's on pages 31 and 32 and is part of a larger article called "Start a business at home with a personal computer and one of these good ideas," by Lesley Alderman. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Shake and shake / The catsup bottle. / None will come, / And then a lot'll." --Richard Armour ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:01:39 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) Neva wrote: >Lynn: >> no matter how closely we read the book before actually >> making entries, there is always the fear that if you omit an entry, >> you'll regret it later. > >Me: Cross-eyed in the wee hours, looking for that reference you **know** >you read sometime recently. Which points out another thing that's been said about intellectual attributes of indexers. We have to have an excellent memory for what we've already read, for not even the apparently excessive entries can catch everything. I find this to be especially important when cross-referencing. >Lynn: >> Sometimes it feels more like a flailing around until the >> index settles into its rhythm and texture. > >Me: Shape, rhythm, and texture are all words I'd use, too. There's >something about making the material part of my neurosystem that lets me >use that cook's intuition: knead until it feels right. I can't know what >feels right until I know how the components feel separately. Then bake til done. ;-D Symmetry is another word I like when it comes to the esthetics of indexing. And just like with battle ships, an esthetic form follows pure function in a good index. Agreed, fellow artiste? >violence > toward children > toward women > among women > among men > toward Andean peoples > between classes > between races > >and so on. Every page illustrates some aspect of violence in Peruvian >society. But the book is not (intended to be) about violence. Is this an extinct society, BTW? ;-D > >Anyway, Thanks Glenda and Lynn for those thoughts. >Neva And thanks for yours!! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:05:00 EDT Reply-To: nharwood@grad.usda.gov Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norma Harwood Subject: Permission to reprint I have noticed several responses to Jackson Yang's request for information on equipment and costs needed to start a free-lance indexing business. Kevin Mulrooney, S. Conroy, and Lynn Moncrief have replied so far. As you might expect, we have been inundated with requests for our Basic Indexing course and any and all other information on computer necessities and starting a business. These responses have really hit the mark. May I have permission to reprint those replies and send them out to our new students with their course materials? Thank you in advance for your consideration. Norma Harwood, Director Correspondence Program Graduate School, USDA nharwood@grad.usda.gov http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:58:56 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: DC/ASI Ergonomics Workshop Washington, DC Chapter of ASI is offering the following ERGONOMICS WORKSHOP Saturday, September 30, 1995 9:30-10am/coffee, tea, and pastries 10-12/meeting -- Come share experiences, try exercises, and practice relaxation techniques. -- Learn coping strategies for repetitive stress syndrome, neck and back pain, and eyestrain. -- Protect yourself while working at home or in the office. Find out which equipment may be helpful, and which may be harmful. Stress dots will be offered to the first 15 arrivals! Ergonomic indexers Jolene Blozis, of U.S. News & World Report, and Cathy Dettmar, of Editorial Experts, Inc. (EEI) will be our hosts for the morning. Getting there: EEI 66 Canal Center Plaza, Suite 200 Alexandria, VA 22314-5507. Parking: Street parking is free and plentiful Saturday mornings. Metro: Braddock Road metro stop is a short cab ride away (cab stand out front). Reservations and/or directions: Call 202/955-2625 Hope to see you there! Pilar Wyman Chair, DC/ASI ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:06:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Kevin wrote: > > There are huge industries appealing to people's desires >to work for themselves, like for example Apple and Microsoft, and they have >a definite agenda to push: buy the right technology, i.e., the right >computer and the right software, and happiness will follow. Horse >feathers!!! But, Kevin, frustration often follows not having the right hardware and software. I'm not saying that Jackson needs to buy a Pentium starting off. But, you can actually lose potential business by not being equipped to handle it. If I couldn't run Word for Windows, not for DOS, I'd be dead in the water because all of my traditional publishing clients want files compatible with that. Now, maybe they'd take an ASCII file, and maybe I go overboard trying to give them something directly compatible with their own software. However, don't forget that we're in a competitive situation here. Which indexer are they going to chose (given two indexers of equal ability) when it comes down to how much work and massaging they'll have to perform on their end? I lost out on a very lucrative client simply because I had the wrong flavor of indexing software and couldn't get it soon enough. This does happen! Let's talk 386 minimum here, which could be had for a song now. >Being in business is a state of mind, not a set of >accoutrements. Indeed. And I agree that there is a huge industry out there that exists for home businesses. However, Money, Home Office Computing, etc. have a good point. Buy the best you can afford, whatever that is. We're not only talking about meeting clients' needs here, but reliability. An 8088 just doesn't hack it in that department. It's simply too old. The one I gave my nephew a few years ago just died, along with his father's 386. Now my sister is scrambling for the old Smith-Corona word processor I gave my parents a few years ago and also wants the old Amiga I also gave them. And this is for my nephew's homework, not even for business where someone's very livelihood is involved. > > I'll point this out now because if I don't I'll surely get flamed: you >can start an indexing business using index cards and/or a word processing >program. You don't *absolutely* have to have either a computer or indexing >software. An ASI member in NYC has produced a detailed document explaining >how to use WordPerfect for indexing, and I confess my very first >professional indexing job was done in WordPerfect! Not a flame. ;-D I agree that you can start an indexing business using index cards, then typing in the index in MS Word, as I did. After spending hours(!) just sorting the cards for this rather big index, then hours more typing them, dedicated indexing software became an immediate necessity. Time is $$ in our business. BTW, how can you run WordPerfect (even for DOS) without a computer? ;-D > > I would use a figure of $ 1000-1,500 as a practicable minimum startup cost >to start a freelance indexing business. And you don't necessarily need this >all in one chunk. This includes: > >1)$ 300 for the USDA course >2) $ 500 for Cindex or Macrex >3) $ 250 for a used 286 machine consisting of 1 meg ram, 40 meg HD, VGA >monitor and tons of software (this is the current "asking price" for this >machine in the used computer market. You cannot run Windows 3.1 in 1 Meg of RAM and even 4Megs is a joke, despite Microsoft's claims. See above where I spoke of compatible file formats. How many publishers are using DOS these days? >Should you need to fax something, and this isn't likely at first, even your >corner deli now routinely has a fax machine you can use for a few bucks a >fax. Kinkos also has fax machines. I agree here. I think that I only need to send a fax of something not already on my hard disk once a year. All other faxes can zap right out over your fax/modem. > > Truth is, this is not a lot of >money for starting a real business: in fact it barely merits the term >"peanuts". If this seems like a lot to you now, I have to say at this point >that you may not have the financial and emotional savvy to make it as a >self-employed person. If Jackson is still working his day job, I recommend saving up those few extra months required so that he doesn't have to undercapitalize his business. I'd hate to see him lose his first client or two simply because he doesn't have good enough hardware and software. . > Hopefully, you're saying "Wow, this sure beats the $ 10,000 >figure!" IMHO, we should at least talk $3K and we'll still be well under $10K, but a lot better equipped and capitalized. Now $1200-1500 will get you a 486-66 with 8Meg of RAM, 540Meg hard drive, 15-inch monitor--new--under warranty, i.e. more reliable!! And, Kevin, don't settle for those .39mm dot pitch monitors that Packard Bell likes to foist on people along with 4Megs of RAM. Those are *not* business systems and that'll kill your eyes and nerves. Remember, you'll spend a lot of time at your computer, believe me! > >Dyslexics of the world untie!! This splits my sides every time I see it in your .sig!!!! :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs P.S. You said in another post "Oh, incidently, I'm not really post.storming, I'm just really busy and I love to procrastinate!" Same here. Now back to work for real! :-D > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) In-Reply-To: <199509152012.NAA20226@callamer.com> Lynn, well-said. And Hazel, too. As a copyeditior, I've OFTEN asked, "Where are the developmental editors?" Also, "Why on EARTH did they decide to publish this [expletive-deleted] mess?" I've recently completed some forays into pre-developmental editing...I've been consulting with would-be authors who have stories to tell but don't know how to write them in decent, intelligible English. While this work is satisfying in a way, have you any idea how little aspiring writers can afford to pay for this, and how un-eager they are to have criticism? What they REALLY want are the Ten Secrets to Getting Published a Week from Tuesday. ;-> Anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying that I agree...the quality of many published books has declined in recent years. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:32:06 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: epithets & pejorative labels >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Is it non-PC for an index term to refer IN QUOTATION MARKS to a >particular racist, sexist, or outgroup epithet? .....>snipped< >Several quotes mention, in a praiseworthy manner, the skills and >productivity of itinerant construction laborers originating from >Oklahoma and Arkansas ("Oakies & Arkies"). I've indexed this as: >"Hanford Works, workforce at"; and, "Oklahomans and Arkansans as >construction workers." Should indexers use pejorative terms >directly, as cross-references, or not at all? I would use the idiom of the book, in quotes as you suggest, because I don't think "Oklahoman" has the same established meaning as "Okie" - for one thing, "Okie" has a specific historical context, which is particularly important as this is a history. Many perjorative terms simply _have_ no neutral equivalent - "Yellow Peril", "Rednecks" or "Gringos", for instance. In other cases like "Yuppies", the neutral term is too long to conveniently use. Where there _are_ appropriate and exact synonyms in neutral language ("Chinks" = Chinese) then I would probably chicken out and use those. >Is it ever OK to set off the indecorous term with quotation marks (at the risk >of perpetuating old errors)? The indexer's job is to use the terms that the readers are going to find references to, whatever type of language these are couched in. Jonathan. And here follows Glenda's response: I once indexed a book on the health of Australian Aborigines. One term and concept which many people in the Aboriginal community don't like is 'half-caste'. I just checked the index, and saw that I had references from 'half caste' and 'part Aborigines' to mixed descent Aborigines. The term' half caste' is used in the book in quotes, when discussed as a concept. The term 'part Aborigines' is also used in the book. >From memory I think the editor might have asked me to add the quotes. She had tried to ensure that the book was written sensitively, and I think the use of quotes on 'half caste' as an unpreferred term was considered OK. I believe that the important question is whether the entry will enhance access. Even people who do not like the term might consult it to see what the book says on that subject. The use of quotes makes a term less offensive (ideally not offensive at all). Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:02:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509160009.RAA30919@callamer.com> Lynn, just a few quibbles. First, I thought the question was from a BEGINNING indexer...one who was not already conversant with dedicated indexing software and probably had not actually worked as a paid indexer before. Nobody like that is going to get a large, serious, well-paid assignment that requires either dedicated software or something rather more esoteric like FrameMaker. If I'm correct that we are discussing a beginner, that person really doesn't need much more than a 286, a decent printer, and a good word processing program. Yes, absolutely, the first "extra" purchase should be a dedicated indexing program (and a month to really learn it without a deadline hanging over his or her head). And the next would be a machine capable of running Windows. (BTW, my 486 does just fine with 4 megs of RAM, though I'm planning to upgrade to 8--so I can install FrameMaker.) You raise some really excellent points, all of which I agree with... for those of us who have passed the "beginner" stage. Time is money, and good equipment is a boon. And nobody can ever have too much RAM, or too much storage on her hard drive! But if you're just starting out, you CAN do it with nothing more than a shoebox and 1000 index cards, and the bare-bones minimum in computers. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 19:50:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <9509150318.AA23189@carson.u.washington.edu> I fully agree with Jackson Yang's list of minimum requirements, including buying a used 286 to get started. However, one word of caution: You will VERY quickly outgrow that 286 if you have any yen toward Windows or all the other super technology that's regularly getting pushed. I paid $700 three years ago for my first used 286, which included computer with 40 mb hard drive and 4mb ram, monitor, printer, and Microsoft Works. Within 7 months I had upgraded everything to a 486/25; and less than 2 years after that, everything in the 486 (except for the motherboard) had been upgraded, at a higher cost on a piece-by-piece basis than a higher-powered system would have cost off the shelf. You can currently find a good Windows-capable 486 system for $1200 or less with plenty of RAM, a 540 mb hard drive, a decent monitor, and (probably) a dot matrix printer thrown in for not much extra. It's going to be cheaper in the long run to start with a good basic EXPANDABLE system rather than 286 technology that's totally outmoded. I am NOT lusting after Windows95 (at least until Cindex requires it!); but it's nice to know that my machine can still handle it once I spring for still more RAM. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 20:06:42 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: <9509150806.AA07900@carson.u.washington.edu> Some of you have already heard my favorite indexing horror story regarding obvious computer-generated indexes/concordances. A while back I ran across a consumer health book on the sale table in a local book store which contained the following entries: ENGLAND, NEW JOURNAL OF MEDICINE JOURNAL, NEW ENGLAND OF MEDICINE Frankly, I can't remember if they ever got around to "New England Journal of Medicine" or not! Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 > Joan Jensen said: > > >> Do NOT confuse the "index" made by a computer program that is part of a > word processing package with content indexing done by a professional. The > first is really a concordance, compiled by the words (or phrases) marked as > they appear in the text. This system works fine for any book that is like > a manual (for example, like a computer text book), << > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 21:15:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article You wrote: > >In a message dated 95-09-15 13:20:40 EDT, bero@ALEXIA.LIS.UIUC.EDU (Kari >Bero) writes: > >>> Who produces Macrex? Does it run in Windows? >>> >>> Gail > >Just thought I would point out that I run CINDEX under Windows all the time - >from the DOS prompt. No problems at all. Macrex probably will do the same >things. > >Jan > You don't even have to go out to the DOS prompt, just set up an icon in one of your program groups to execute CINDEX. It thereafter runs full-screen on top of Windows. I have a program group named "Indexes." In it I have an icon for each index I'm working on. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:36:57 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) Dick Evans and Lynn Moncrief wrote: >>When I encounter something like this, I read and re-read, saying to >>myself: "I know what this *says* but what is it *about*? >> >Aboutness! That's it!!! :-D The formal descriptions of concepts and the language that index users use is often quite different. This has struck me lately as I have been consulting _Indexing from A to Z_ and _Indexing Books_ quite a lot. It is often really hard, even as an indexer, to decide what term would be used to describe a topic. (This is not a relection on those indexes, but on the subject matter). I also found this while consulting the index to a book called _Student Writers Handbook_ which I indexed many years ago. I wanted to find the examples which described the use of words such as *crowd* as either singular or plural words (e.g. the crowd is noisy; OR the crowd are eating their lunches). I looked up _plural_,_singular_ and _agreement_, before finally finding the references at _subject-verb agreement_. I think there should have been a reference from _agreement_, and will put one in the index to the second edition which I am about to start work on. However, the use of both _agreement_ and _subject-verb agreement_ assumes that the index user knows the formal language of the subject. I was not so sure when I started writing this that _plural_ and _singular_ would be valid headings, but now that I have thought about it a bit more, I think a heading _plurals_, with the subdivision _collective nouns as_, would be useful, and logically OK (My initial reservation was that this page is not *about* plurals, but I guess it *is* about _collective nouns as plurals_. ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:37:16 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Cross-referencing indexing on-line information sources Kevin Mulrooney's enthusiasm over the American Society of Indexers home page: - >It's at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ (that's lib n as in "Netscape" >h) (*not* ri) leads me to wonder if it is possible, and desirable, to attach a tag or header to all INDEX-L messages mentioning this URL; and vice versa, whether the INDEX-L list is mentioned on the Web page? The Web page would also be an excellent place to store links to archives from this list. One hand might as well stroke the other... Jonathan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:36:54 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action >If you're worried about professional indemnity/legal action, incorporate. >That's what incorporating is for, if I'm not mistaken. The reason I asked this question is because we are about to sign a contract in which we accept liability for errors we make in database indexing. I don't like signing something like this without knowing, and limiting, the risks. The consensus among indexers, however, seem to be that the risks are minimal. We have made an appointment with an accountant - something we have thought of doing for a while, but have resisted because of an independent do-it-ourselves streak. We are also considering incorporation, but my understanding is that here in Australia, while the shareholders have limited liability, the directors still remain liable. Glenda. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:23:35 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Max McMaster Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action Glenda, >>If you're worried about professional indemnity/legal action, incorporate. >>That's what incorporating is for, if I'm not mistaken. > >The reason I asked this question is because we are about to sign a contract >in which we accept liability for errors we make in database indexing. I >don't like signing something like this without knowing, and limiting, the >risks. The consensus among indexers, however, seem to be that the risks are >minimal. I would not sign a contract for database indexing which included a clause whereby you accept liability for errors in indexing. I don't know which database you are considering being contracted for, but this is not on. There is no database that I have worked on which lays down this specification. Further, it is not possible to produce a database index, or any other for that matter, which does not contain some sort of error. Also, what is an error? If you gave 6 database indexers the same article to index they will all provide something slightly different, depending on the emphasis they perceive within the document, the perceived audience, and the indexers knowledge and understanding of the material being indexed. So which of the six versions is the right one? Also, most database producers have a supervisor to check database indexing for quality, accuracy and consistency. If you wish to continue with the contract, get that particular clause deleted! Max Max McMaster Master Indexing mindexer@interconnect.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:10:11 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs On all the lists of minimum requirements, the assumption is always that one will be use a DOS or a DOS/WINDOWS machine. There is another route. I've been using during the years I've been a professional indexer (i.e. work not my own and for pay), first a Macintosh Classic and currently a Macintosh Performa 475. Macintosh Classic currently sells (used) for $300/$400 with 4 megs of RAM (expandable with RAM Doubler to 8). I use a StyleWriter II ink-jet printer (something like $300) and have a FAX/MODEM. Thanks to SOFT PC I can read DOS disks and format my final product on DOS readable disks. The Mac doesn't do CINDEX or MACREX, however one can accomplish much without these programs. Skipping the stage of paper cards, I type my initial draft index data directly into my word processing program (either MacWrite Pro if I'm working in Spanish vocabulary material or Microsoft Word). Then I do a sort to alphabetize the data. Finally I refine, rework, and format the final result on the computer by hand. I'm currently testing HYPERINDEX software which claims to do the formating and alphabetizing tasks, and appears actually to do so. If the final product is as good as it appears it will be, I expect I will use HYPERINDEX in the future. As I understand it, from reading the comments on CINDEX and MACREX, this is the most valuable aspect of these software programs. HYPERINDEX cost $50. On training to do indexes, my route was also somewhat different, although I won't claim it is either necessarily better or cheaper. I've been doing indices for my own work since the 1970's but it was in the '70's and '80's Spanish language manuscripts. Formal training in index preparation came when I took indexing courses during the year and a half I spent getting an MLS at Catholic University in 1991/1992. THAT is also when I learned that indexing was a business as well as a fun task one did when finishing a book project. Lawrence H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer-Researcher-Writer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 07:35:06 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Cindex over Windows In-Reply-To: <9509160803.AA04460@carson.u.washington.edu> Like Dick, I always use Cindex over Windows. I routinely keep an Excel spreadsheet running in background as my timesheet and then open Cindex from the icon. To move between the two, just use ALT-ESC (which minimizes Cindex) to get back to the Windows environment; then double-click the Cindex icon and you're back indexing. About the only time I run into problems is if I have a large Cindex file, Excel, Word, screensaver, and email all running simultaneously; so I am careful to routinely do a Cindex Write backup to floppy before minimizing Cindex to run other applications just in case something crashes. (I have a 486/DX50 with 8 mb ram; would not recommend running more than a couple of applications simultaneously with less memory.) Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Richard Evans wrote: > You don't even have to go out to the DOS prompt, just set up an icon > in one of your program groups to execute CINDEX. It thereafter runs > full-screen on top of Windows. I have a program group named "Indexes." > In it I have an icon for each index I'm working on. > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Sonsie wrote: > >Lynn, it sounds like you're doing some pretty hefty indexing! I've got >FrameMaker, but have yet to install it...I'm currently running Windows >quite comfortably with only 4 megs of RAM, but FrameMaker needs 8. So >it'll have to wait. Sonsie, Even 8Megs won't be enough to index in FrameMaker because once you start editing the index, you open more and more files of the book you're working on. If the book is over 200 pp, forget it. That's why I had to go up to 24Meg. Even then I sometimes find myself looking at the hourglass too long for comfort on a 66Mhz 486! FrameMaker projects also consume huge amounts of disk space. If you get a 20Meg book (not unthinkable when the client includes the graphics), count on needing at least 40Meg for that puppy as FrameMaker will generate a backup file for every file you open. And that's aside from the almost 20Meg Windows swap file you'll find it essential to create on your hard disk. When you consider that desktop publishers sometimes run with 128Meg of RAM for working in FrameMaker and that when indexing you're working with the same files they are, you see what I mean. > >I do want to say that I bought and used Macrex quite intensively on my >old 286 machine with absolutely no appreciable time lag or problems. I >stand by my earlier advice that a 286 is a minimal configuration for a >beginner--who will NOT be indexing the kinds of materials you work on. I hear you. :-) But how long ago was that? A few years is a millenia in computing. Were you also using DOS programs for non-indexing tasks in running your business? I remember running Word for Windows, for example, on a 286 years ago and it was a nightmare aside from the fact that we were running Windows 3.0 (which could run comfortably in 4Megs of RAM aside from crashing a thousand times a day. And that was WinWord version 1.0, not the RAM and disk space hungry version 6.0 available now. Can one buy much software that would run on a 286 these days and fit on the 40-80Meg hard drives that came with them? We're talking about someone buying a machine that's three computing generations back in time and having to function in a 32-bit going to 64-bit business world. For less than $1500 one could buy a new 486 with a 540Meg hard drive and be able to handle almost whatever his or her potential clients would throw at him. Even my traditional publishing clients want word processed files in a format that their software can handle. And none of them use DOS programs nor accept dedicated indexing software files. Nor do they want only ASCII files. ;-D It's hard enough to get clients as a new indexer only to lose potential clients because one can't deliver according to their needs. I know what it feels like to lose out on a potentially lucrative client, not even as a new indexer, simply because I had the wrong flavor of dedicated indexing software and couldn't get the other flavor soon enough. (They used dedicated indexing software inhouse and wanted their freelancers to use the same.) Now, that was a fluke, but similar things can happen, especially when several indexers are bidding on the same project. The client will likely go with who can deliver in the desired format, all other things being equal. The very first potential client I went after as a new indexer (and they did want to contract me) wanted WordPerfect for Windows which I didn't have and that was a $5/page project!!! (I would have bought what they needed, but then their documentation department went down the tubes.) I'd just like to see whoever started this thread start off on a reasonably competitive footing. Plus I'd be constantly worried about the reliability of a used computer (and you can't get a 286 new these days) that I depended upon for my livelihood. But then, I'm obsessive about these things, I admit, with backup power supplies, spike suppressors, computer insurance, etc. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:25:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) Sonsie, Quite a few folks are hanging out their shingles as "book doctors". One of the selling points they use is making authors' books more salable to acquisition editors. Writer's Digest had an article or two a year or two back about the value of book doctors and every issue has ads for them. Being that authors of non-fiction works (i.e., indexable works) often have professions other than writing, some of them may be in a better position to pay for a book doctor. Just guessing here. Now, before anyone screams off-topic, I'd like to add that anything we can do to make our work as indexers easier is relevant, IMHO. ;-D Sonsie, if you can't find the Writer's Digests article(s), email me and I'll snail them to you if I still have them. Maybe reprints of it will help your authors overcome their objections. (Fingers crossed.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Sonsie wrote: > >Lynn, well-said. And Hazel, too. As a copyeditior, I've OFTEN asked, >"Where are the developmental editors?" Also, "Why on EARTH did they >decide to publish this [expletive-deleted] mess?" > >I've recently completed some forays into pre-developmental editing...I've >been consulting with would-be authors who have stories to tell but don't >know how to write them in decent, intelligible English. While this work >is satisfying in a way, have you any idea how little aspiring writers can >afford to pay for this, and how un-eager they are to have criticism? What >they REALLY want are the Ten Secrets to Getting Published a Week from >Tuesday. ;-> > >Anyway, this is a long-winded way of saying that I agree...the quality of >many published books has declined in recent years. > > |==========| > | Sonsie | > |==========| > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 08:51:51 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article In-Reply-To: <199509160416.XAA23862@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> Yes, any DOS program can be "run from Windows", either by using the DOS prompt or by adding a Windows icon for the program. If Gail is Windows oriented and wants _Windows_ programs (mouse functions not keyboard functions), she will have trouble finding dedicated indexing software for Windows. She needs to understand that going to the DOS prompt window or adding an icon in Windows will not make the program a Windows program. It will just allow easy access to it. She will still be using keyboard commands rather than her mouse. -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Richard Evans wrote: > >Just thought I would point out that I run CINDEX under Windows all the > time - > >from the DOS prompt. No problems at all. Macrex probably will do the > same > >things. > > > >Jan > > > You don't even have to go out to the DOS prompt, just set up an icon > in one of your program groups to execute CINDEX. It thereafter runs > full-screen on top of Windows. I have a program group named "Indexes." > In it I have an icon for each index I'm working on. > > Dick Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:12:28 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: <199509151941.OAA01007@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Lynn Moncrief wrote: > Joan wrote: > > > > This system works fine for any book that is like > >a manual (for example, like a computer text book), but does not work for > >any book that had a lot of content that is not necessarily described by > >particular words. > > No, you didn't say that!!!!!!!!! :-D Computer manuals need just as much > loving care from professional indexers as other documents. I would go a step further, Lynn. I think that any "manual" or other book that readers will not read from cover to cover needs a more pampered index than other books. If someone only uses the book once every 2 months, they will not know the structure of the book's information. The words or phrases readers might look for in the index are not tied to the terms used by the authors. An indexer must provide cross-references to make sure more than a small percentage of readers find what they want. Really, how often do people use indexes in manuals and end up grumbling because either they don't find what they're looking for, or they find it under some oddball term. If they don't know the term the author uses, it will seem oddball. My husband, programmer / network administrator, _never_ uses indexes ("said the indexer in a humbled tone"). He only uses Tables of Contents. Computer and software manuals have the reputation of including useless indexes. I'm thrilled to hear that more and more indexers are getting their hands on these manuals and providing access to the information they contain. Kudos to those who tackle the technical books! -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:11:08 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Sonsie, Whoops. I zapped my earlier reply into the ether before reading your subsequent message. :-D Sonsie wrote: > >Lynn, just a few quibbles. > >First, I thought the question was from a BEGINNING indexer...one who was >not already conversant with dedicated indexing software and probably had >not actually worked as a paid indexer before. Nobody like that is going >to get a large, serious, well-paid assignment that requires either >dedicated software or something rather more esoteric like FrameMaker. I too thought that Jackson was a beginning indexer. However, I disagree that a beginner cannot get a serious well-paid assignment. (The other day I tried to post something about beginners and rates, but I don't know if it appeared on the list.) In my other response to you, I spoke of almost getting a $5/page project as my very first project. My actual first project was with a well-known company and paid $4/page. However, I never presented myself as a beginner, which can be done without lying to the potential client. If that post about beginners and rates didn't appear, I'll rewrite it, because I feel it could help many beginners and save the rest of us from having the market being depressed by bargain basement rates. > >If I'm correct that we are discussing a beginner, that person really >doesn't need much more than a 286, a decent printer, and a good word >processing program. Yes, absolutely, the first "extra" purchase should be >a dedicated indexing program (and a month to really learn it without a >deadline hanging over his or her head). And the next would be a machine >capable of running Windows. (BTW, my 486 does just fine with 4 megs of >RAM, though I'm planning to upgrade to 8--so I can install FrameMaker.) Sonsie, you gotta tell me your secrets of running Windows without agony in 4Megs of RAM! ;-D (Maybe you're not running all the TSRs that I do.) I won't repeat myself in terms of the other post I sent off this morning. However, I did my very first project using index cards. Because it was a rather big index, it took hours just to sort them. Then more hours to type it all into Word. That same client wanted the very next project to be embedded in MS Word for Windows (an even bigger index) so we rapidly got esoteric here. ;-D Then my third project, now another new client, I did in Macrex because I was not about to sort index cards again. And there wasn't any time to learn Macrex in between projects as there was no in-between. But learning it on the fly was still faster than the index card method. It can happen, as it did in my case, that a new indexer hits the ground running and time be of essence right from the start. And I've seen it happen right on AOL with a new indexer whose business got off to a rapid, dazzling start. (It was thrilling to watch!) > >You raise some really excellent points, all of which I agree with... for >those of us who have passed the "beginner" stage. Time is money, and good >equipment is a boon. And nobody can ever have too much RAM, or too much >storage on her hard drive! Like being rich and thin. ;-D I think one of the secrets for a good strong start in indexing (or any business) is not to think as a beginner. This not only goes for rate-setting, but also in terms of equipment. If one thinks as a beginner, they're likely to remain a "beginner" for too long, income-wise, client-wise, etc. Sure, you (implicitly) and Kevin (explicitly) made a good point about the golden rule of starting small, but too small can be crippling. Undercapitalizing ones business can lead to failure--at minimum a protracted startup phase. Of course, employing chutzpah and going for broke equipment-wise are big risks psychologically and financially, but the rewards can be that much bigger and come that much sooner. > >But if you're just starting out, you CAN do it with nothing more than a >shoebox and 1000 index cards, and the bare-bones minimum in computers. Make that over 2000 index cards for my first index. :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:26:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kari Bero Subject: Re: Cross-referencing indexing on-line information sources In-Reply-To: <199509160544.AAA25101@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu> The ASI Web Page has lotsa info about INDEX-L, including subscribe instructions and links to the archives. The Web committee met on INDEX-L and we all understand it's importance in indexers lives. ;-D Having said that, I don't know that it is appropriate for every INDEX-L message to have a header mentioning ASI's Web Page. They really aren't related? If people want it mentioned more often 8-) those of us on the Web committee might consider adding the ASI URL to our .sig files? Or hey, if anyone on INDEX-L wants to comment on it & tell others what they like, or not, about it, feel free to post. -Kari %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Kari J. Bero Bero-West Indexing Services 206-937-3673 3722 Beach Drive SW, Suite 101 bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu Seattle, WA 98116 http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~bero/ Be sure to check out the ASI Web Page at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Jonathan Jermey wrote: > Kevin Mulrooney's enthusiasm over the American Society of Indexers > home page: - > > >It's at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ (that's lib n as in "Netscape" > >h) (*not* ri) > > leads me to wonder if it is possible, and desirable, to attach a tag or > header to all INDEX-L messages mentioning this URL; and vice versa, whether > the INDEX-L list is mentioned on the Web page? The Web page would also be an > excellent place to store links to archives from this list. One hand might as > well stroke the other... > > Jonathan > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne > Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 > jonathan@magna.com.au > "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland. " > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:38:25 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Cross-referencing indexing on-line information sources Jonathan wrote: > >Kevin Mulrooney's enthusiasm over the American Society of Indexers >home page: - > >>It's at http://www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ (that's lib n as in "Netscape" >>h) (*not* ri) > >leads me to wonder if it is possible, and desirable, to attach a tag or >header to all INDEX-L messages mentioning this URL; and vice versa, whether >the INDEX-L list is mentioned on the Web page? Jonathan, INDEX-L (with other online discussions related to indexing, etc.) is indeed listed on the ASI Web site along with info on how to subscribe. However, I'm not quite sure what you meant about attaching a tag or header to all INDEX-L messages mentioning the URL. Perhaps if you explained what would you like to accomplish with this idea, I'd understand this more clearly. >The Web page would also be an >excellent place to store links to archives from this list. One hand might as >well stroke the other... What a great idea! There may be some technical issues if the INDEX-L archives are stored on a gopher or FTP site. But I'll bring this up with the ASI Web exec committee members (who've all probably read it here). And talking about one hand stroking the other: our Web site was truly born of INDEX-L. :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs (and chair of the ASI Web exec committee) > >Jonathan >----------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- >Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne >Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 >jonathan@magna.com.au >"From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:19:34 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Cindex over Windows Carolyn Weaver wrote: > > About the only time I run into >problems is if I have a large Cindex file, Excel, Word, screensaver, and >email all running simultaneously; so I am careful to routinely do a Cindex >Write backup to floppy before minimizing Cindex to run other applications >just in case something crashes. (I have a 486/DX50 with 8 mb ram; would not >recommend running more than a couple of applications simultaneously >with less memory.) Carolyn, Just a thought about running a number of apps simultaneously and memory. No matter how much RAM you have, Windows can crash with too many apps open because every open window, icon, etc. uses Windows resources (not related to system RAM). And this is despite the misleading dialog box that Windows displays in its death throes about being out of memory. One can make Windows crash running Program Manager alone, just by opening up every program group window (discovered by someone with too much time on their hands--not me). ;-D BTW, I also run Macrex in a DOS window, where it's extremely well-behaved, and Windows apps simultaneously. (And like you, I back up, especially before going online.) One thing that really helps avoid memory conflicts that could bring everything down (regardless of how much RAM one has or how many Windows resources are available) is to use a memory manager like QEMM or 386Max. Windows' own memory manager is not for prime time and I had a crash a day (minimum) until installing QEMM. As for the Windows resource limitation (which I have run afoul of), Win95 is supposed to be much better in this regard. I'll know in a few weeks. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs (disclaimer: I do not work for any of the companies mentioned in this posting. Why not, come to think of it? Better get to marketing. ;-D) > >Carolyn Weaver >Bellevue, Wa. >e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu >voice: 206/930-4348 > > > >On Fri, 15 Sep 1995, Richard Evans wrote: > >> You don't even have to go out to the DOS prompt, just set up an icon >> in one of your program groups to execute CINDEX. It thereafter runs >> full-screen on top of Windows. I have a program group named "Indexes." >> In it I have an icon for each index I'm working on. >> >> Dick Evans >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:12:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs Lynn; All of your numerous points of reply to my post on equipment costs (Jackson Yang's question) are well-taken. In fact there were *so* many good points, you must be either 1) much busier than me at the moment, or 2) a *much* better procrastinator than me, which is frightening to think of. See my thoughts at the end about this Lynn Moncreif lady. See also my post today on "Re: Macrex..." for a description of my own system to correct any misconceptions that I use a 286 currently. There is such an incredible variety and divergence of experiences among indexers, as the opposite views expressed by you and I attest. Here's a perfect example. While you have clients who insist their work be embedded in Word for Windows, I have great difficulty getting more than a yawn from mine when I ask what format they want the work in. I'm constantly saying to existing and new clients "Hey listen, I can give you this index in a WP5.0 file, Word for Windows, an ASCII file, whatever". No one ever seems to care, so I continue to format my files from Cindex into WordPerfect, go into WordPerfect and use the smell-checker, take care of any non-standard formatting, print it from WordPerfect, then make an ASCII file from WordPerfect. I intend to start hunting down some of these more advanced publishers since I suspect they pay much better. I'm beginning to get an uneasy feeling that I'm missing some kind of bandwagon, and I sure don't want that to happen. If money was no object for a beginning indexer, then I would agree that they should get the best equipment available. As I see it, my ideas (and Sonsie's (what a cool name) and others') represent the *minimum* essential requirements, which is how I interpreted Jackson's question. Your approach represents a *best case* (or at least much better) scenario for getting a running start. One should attempt to get as close to *your* scenario as money allows, without losing sight of the fact that these are "mere mechanical details" as we used to say at Uncle Dupy, and that the most important aspect of getting started in any business is having a clear vision of what you have to offer the world. That's what I mean by "Business is a state of mind, not a set of accoutrements". In other words, you can always add more accoutrements as time and success allows, but if you don't have the state of mind a Cray Supercomputer won't make you a good indexer. Or as the saying goes: Love will get you through times without money, but money can't get you through times without love. Now that Lynn Moncrief, she is sure one *power* computing lady. She gets my vote for Indexer.computing.goddess!! You should give a seminar sometime, if you haven't already, about the whole imbedding process and what it is you do. With all this talk about Pentiums and FrameMaker, I'm starting to feel really inadequate since all I ever do is work in Cindex and format an ASCII file. Furthermore, I *am* beginning to regret not getting a faster and bigger computer, although at the time I felt it was all I could afford. In particular, I have only a 14.4 modem, and the Web is very frustrating at this speed; aggrevated by all the people who feel compelled to tile graphic elements all over their pages. I hope I don't get performance anxiety. Peace and success! Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:16:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article Kari Bero took the words right out of my mouth re Dick's question about using Cindex/Macrex with Windows: >Yes, any DOS program can be "run from Windows", either by using the >DOS prompt or by adding a Windows icon for the program. As Kari eloquently points out, there's a big difference between starting a DOS program from Windows and running truly *with* Windows. The primary difference is that you won't have the consistent Windows interface: File, Edit, View, etc. at the top of the screen. The other big difference is you can't do the task-sharing, although you can task-switch with ctr-esc as someone pointed out. You won't be able to start Cindex/Macrex on a long sort or print job, then task-switch to another program while Cindex/Macrex does its thing in the background. I'm still compartively new at Windows (see below) so if I'm way off base someone (like say that Lynn Moncrief computing goddess) will surely correct me. Contrary to any impressions I may have left about my own system since I suggested Jackson Yang could *start* with a 286, I don't have such a system myself. I use a 486sx 33 with 4 megs ram and 250 Meg hard drive, and I run Cindex from a Windows icon like several others. Believe it or not, I was just 3 weeks ago dragged kicking and screaming into the Windows world, when I *finally* deleted GEOWORKS Ensemble, from which I had been running Windows 3.11 as an icon when I had to use WinWord!! My computer stud buddies tell me that at the time Windows first came out, Ensemble was *way* better than Windows and it still runs gloriously for my kids on my old 286. Alas, I doubt if it's even available now. Actually I'm really glad I'm now a Windows person since I've become very excited about the possibilities for writing your own software using WinWord and its BASIC implementation. And hey, now I'm on the Internet! As for Lawrence Feldman's comment today about using HYPERINDEX on the Mac, a quick comment. For $50 you have nothing to lose, go for it! However, Cindex and Macrex do a *lot* more than just format and alphabetize. There are several other programs for PCs that are also quite cheap and also more-or-less *just* format and alphabetize, if I'm not mistaken. I'm working on a "techniques" article for Keywords about using the powerful GROUPS command in Cindex to update existing indexes, either your own on disk or scanned in. [Macrex has a similar capability]. When you see how powerful this can be, you'll see what the extra $450 is going for, among many other things. Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 12:34:04 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Robin James Subject: http://www.k7mytos.com/ Here I am, my new Home Page Comments, Hellos and Criticism and Etc.s welcome at robinja@halcyon.com Peace. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Harrison Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action Kevin Mulrooney wrote: >I completely agree with Sonsie Conroy and Hazel (the Curmudgeonly) >Blumberg-McKee. > >If you're worried about professional indemnity/legal action, incorporate. >That's what incorporating is for, if I'm not mistaken. ... True in general, but an individual freelancer incorporating to escape legal/personal liability will find that the shield is about the consistency of wet tissue. It doesn't keep out the rain. Or hail. However, I also agree with you and others that professional liability insurance seems overkill for an indexer. Beware, however, if you ever index an emergency-room medical manual. :D Larry Harrison (larryh@millcomm.com) 507/280-0049 Freelance book indexing Rochester, Minnesota "Windows 95? I'll wait for the Mac version." -Dilbert ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:52:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "laura m. gottlieb" Subject: Saturday e-mail postings 16 September 1995 Hey, gang! Isn't it great that Charlotte Skuster has put Index-L on automatic pilot? If you're a freelancer like me, you spend a lot of weekends, national holidays, and other "vacation" time actually working, and it's wonderful to be able to check in and see what's going on on Index-L then. It makes me feel more connected, less isolated--Hey! I'm not the *only* one working on a weekend! --Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:21:00 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: http://www.k7mytos.com/ Beautiful job, Robin If possible, could you post some info on how you got your page going, costs, choosing a provider, advertizing, etc. I've seen figures like $500 to do the page and $150/month for the server access. Is this anywhere close to reality? How much can you do yourself? I'm very new to the net, but I'm under the understanding that for several grand you can set up your own server. If so, there may be a business opportunity for someone to set up a server to provide page access for indexer's pages. This server and others may then eventually be linked to the ASI home page on a "professional resources" page. Also I too have been involved recently in the area of image indexing, for a major publisher that was really secretive about me giving out any details. I feel, as I'm sure you do, that this is a *vast* new area of opportunity for indexers as many big publishers have huge in-house image libraries. It makes sense for authors to be able to access existing images rather than developing from scratch for each book! Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 18:17:02 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. >> On Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:12:28 -0700, >> Kari Bero (bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) said: K> Kudos to those who tackle the technical books! For what it's worth, some of the best indexes I've seen are in the Unix books published by O'Reilly and Associates. They have quite a few nice touches, like mentioning obscure error messages both in the index and a separate appendix. Their "Sendmail" book is nearly 800 pages long, but I've rarely had any trouble finding what I needed in a minute or two. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 Excuse me while I pop upstairs to the basement. --M. C. Escher ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:37:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment In-Reply-To: <199509161619.JAA14516@callamer.com> Lynn, I did use my 286 for WordPerfect 5.1, Macrex, and about a dozen other programs having to do with my business...with no problems. In fact, the machine is still in use by my son for HIS schoolwork seven years later! I have my current Macrex edition installed on his machine as a backup if my 486 ever quits on me, so in a way, I =do= have "computer insurance." I agree in essence with the idea of buying the best equipment you can manage at the time. When I bought it, I paid about $2500 for my 286, printer, and good monochrome monitor. It was a hot item way back when, and it served me incredibly well for about five years. I keep coming back, though, to the original question, which was what is the MINIMUM or BASIC equipment needed to get started. I'm not advocating or recommending that one deliberately cripple one's operation by "cheaping out" on equipment, but a 286 is a reasonable beginner's machine if the budget simply will not expand to include a brand new 486 or Pentium with all the bells and whistles. A used 386 would be even better. But then, I haven't bought a new car since 1970...have done quite well with two- or three-year-old used cars, which I maintain punctiliously and usually drive for at least five MORE years. I think we also must be aiming at different indexing markets. Most of my clients (textbook publishers) want their indexes in ASCII. One client insists on Cindex format, which is why I just recently shelled out megabucks for Cindex. If your clients don't want ASCII and don't want dedicated indexing software formats, what DO they want? Obviously, FrameMaker is one choice. And, from what you say, I'm perfectly happy to eschew those clients for the time being. I simply can't afford to spend several thousand on a Pentium with a bazillion megs of RAM just to earn an addition dollar a page. You must be working on far more sophisticated projects than I am...or that any beginning indexer would ever be asked to do--another reason why I think the KISS formula would work for a beginner, where you (and I) would need more complex and expensive equipment. Please understand that I really value your outlook on this, and actually I agree with what you've been saying about quality of equipment. I'm just remembering what being a beginner was like, and the kinds of projects I was getting. I certainly wasn't in any sort of bidding war for $5-a-page jobs that required years of experience and high-tech equipment to produce. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:41:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: seeking the index level (was indexing choices) In-Reply-To: <199509161619.JAA14340@callamer.com> Lynn, I haven't had the good fortune to work with professionals who have a book assignment (or at least an accepted query) from a reputable publisher...but I bet that would be a lot more lucrative and fun! I gave a speech to a local writers' group, and from that speech have received numerous calls from folks with books they've written and want to sell. After winnowing out the obvious no-gos, I did work with several people who had good fiction or nonfiction mss. but needed editing and direction. But unless I find a rich sugar-daddy author, it's not really worth my time...especially not when I can be indexing and earning a LOT more per hour! |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:44:57 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: <199509161620.JAA14494@callamer.com> Kari, when I was a real newbie about computers, I didn't KNOW the "correct" terms for most of my problems! So the index had to be good to help me find what I needed. And luckily, the first program I really had to learn fast and well was WordPerfect. For that version (5.1), it had a superb index that cross-referenced practically every conceivable term to the proper computer nomenclature. "Printing" was pretty obvious--I found that right away. But the concept of "saving" a file simply wasn't embedded in my consciousness at that point. I can remember hunting under every possible permutation of keep/file/write/etc. until I found the information I needed. So when I index computer manuals, at least for programs that raw beginners are likely to use, I make a big point out of "playing dumb" and cross-referencing every which way. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 16:52:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509161620.JAA14641@callamer.com> Lynn, I'm replying "live" online, so pardon the duplicate messages addressed to you! Yes, I did see your message about your first paid job, and it sounded like a wonderful opportunity. You needed every bit of your equipment to do it, as well. My first assignment was given to me by someone I already had done a lot of copyediting for, and who assumed I was an indexer also. Who was I to tell her different? Lucky for me, it was a 400-page math book that was so well-organized that the index was a breeze. It also paid about $1.50 a page (about 15 years ago), and I did it by hand with index cards. Fast forward about five years, and I got my first indexing assignment that HAD to be done on computer, using WordPerfect. I did not own a computer, nor had I ever used WP. I'd done a little typesetting on a Mac, and that was it. Two weeks later, I had my 286, WP, and completed the work about a week later. I learned DOS, pc's, and WP all in one swell foop...probably the hardest thing I've ever done in my professional life. So I really understand about hitting the ground running! Later, I had the same experience with Macrex. HAD to do an index in it, HAD to buy it immediately and learn it on the fly. Thank goodness I still have two brain cells to rub together... As I said in one of my earlier messages, we don't really disagree about the essentials. I think we're just taking two different paths to the same eventual end point. But I have really enjoyed this exchange! |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:03:01 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs In-Reply-To: <199509162008.NAA01104@callamer.com> Kevin, agreed on Lynn's super abilities and knowledge. I think she should be offering seminars so we'll PAY her for all that good stuff she is giving us for free. I'm also wondering about all that embedding stuff. I was given a [legal] copy of FrameMaker in order to learn to do embedding for a project that didn't work out, and I still have it. I think this is the wave of the future (just as dedicated indexing software was the "wave" five or so years ago), and we need to get on our surfboards ASAP. BTW, you work just about exactly the way I do, except that I use Macrex. The printing module gives me fits, and it doesn't have a spell checker, so I transport the file over to WP and pretty it up from there. The latest version of WP can otuput in something like 25 different formats, so my clients always get what they want. Which is almost always ASCII... or, as you said, "yawn." |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 17:05:09 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Saturday e-mail postings In-Reply-To: <199509162008.NAA31880@callamer.com> Laura, I'm SUPPOSED to be working. But guess what I'm doing? Playing with Index-L! |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:29:10 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Meyer Subject: Re: Professional indemnity/Legal action Hi, Someone wrote: >>If you're worried about professional indemnity/legal action, incorporate. >>That's what incorporating is for, if I'm not mistaken. Glenda Browne wrote: > >The reason I asked this question is because we are about to sign a contract >in which we accept liability for errors we make in database indexing. I >don't like signing something like this without knowing, and limiting, the >risks. The consensus among indexers, however, seem to be that the risks are >minimal. I don't think it is a safe assumption to extrapolate the earlier general statements to your specific contract situation. After all, you specifically undertake a legal obligation in your contract. When indexing a book, it would be clearly possible to negiligently carry out the task in the sense that the job would not meet the standard required from a reasonably competent indexer. The questions are likey to be whether the reader of the book has relied on the index and suffers a loss. These and other tests have to be passed before the indexer (and publisher) may be held liable. (My statement of the principles is very general here because I no longer practice law and am not abreast of current developments.) When indexing a database of works which will be used by doctors or lawyers seeking reference material, it is much more likely that the professional person will rely on the index and may suffer loss if the index has been negligently prepared (because they in turn then give negiligent advice to their clients). It is likely that the people who have asked you to accept liablity for errors have exactly that in mind. > >We have made an appointment with an accountant - something we have thought >of doing for a while, but have resisted because of an independent >do-it-ourselves streak. We are also considering incorporation, but my >understanding is that here in Australia, while the shareholders have limited >liability, the directors still remain liable. An accountant is not likely to be qualified to advise on these issues. Anyone contemplating signing a contract such as that described by Glenda *definitely* needs legal advice before signing. I think they would need to seriously consider indemnity insurance, but that would be determined in consultation with the adviser. Peter Meyer ______________________________________________________________________________ Peter W Meyer pmeyer@desklaw.com.au Desktop Law Pty Limited Ph: +61 2 9922 3096 PO Box 244, Lindfield, NSW 2070 Fax: +61 2 9929 8396 Australia Mobile: 018 245 128 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 01:58:04 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Serge I. Obolensky" Subject: 27th Information Industry Association - Annual Convention and Exhibition Romancing the Nets - Profit Strategies for the Electronic Marketplace 27th Information Industry Association - Annual Convention and Exhibition 22-25 October 1995 Royal York Hotel Toronto, Canada The Information Industry Association's (IIA) 1995 Annual Convention and Exhibition is the leading business forum for interaction and debate on the most important business strategy and technology issues facing the information industry. This years theme, "Romancing the Net - Profit Strategies for the Electronic Marketplace," focuses on the dramatic, fast-paced changes that are sweeping the information industry and the business implications for content providers and other information companies. The program features reviews of enabling technologies, global dissemination channels, the Internet, and emerging new commercial networks that are driving change in the information industry and illustrates how customer applications and industry business practices are changing as a result. The 1995 IIA Annual Convention & Exhibition offers a unique opportunity to network with key executives from the world's leading information companies in virtually every segment of the information industry - publishers, database providers, information distributors, systems integrators, and hardware, software, and telecommunications companies. The 2nd World Financial Information Conference (WFIC) will be held on October 21-23, 1995 in conjunction with the 1995 IIA Annual Conference & Exhibition. The WFIC is the only international event focused exclusively on issues related to the dissemination and processing of financial information. Registrants for the 1995 IIA Annual Convention & Exhibition are invited to attend all sessions of the WFIC at no additional costs. Exhibition space is still available at the 1995 IIA Annual Convention & Exhibition as well placement in the special technology showcase session where new and emerging technologies are demonstrated for the conference attendees. The following is a listing (incomplete) of the sessions at the 1995 IIA Annual Convention & Exhibition: * Panning for Profits: Staking a Claim in the Electronic Information Goldrush * 10th Annual Deal-Making Session * Keynote address: Ken Burenga, President & COO, Dow Jones & Company & President, The Wall Street Journal. * Network Wars * Voices of the Information Marketplace * Let the Medium Fit the Message: Strategies for Linking Information & Customers * Pricing Strategies: New Technologies, New Options, New Challenges * New Infrastructures: New Opportunities * Through the Looking Glass _ A Guided Tour of the World Wide Web * Entering the New World of Information * Mirror, Mirror on the Wall * Second Annual technology Showcase * Your Information Business - The Global Challenge * Tailoring Products for Global Markets * Strategic Partners - the Web of Relationships IIA was fortunate to have a top-notch group of session leaders putting the final touches on this year's program. Session Leaders for the 1995 Annual Convention are: David Boelio, Executive Vice President, CD-MAX, Inc.; Cynthia Braddon, Vice President Washington Affairs, The McGraw Hill Companies Inc.; Robert Brooks, Vice President and Director of Sales and Marketing, The Bureau of National Affairs, Inc.; Jeremy Grayzel, CEO, Grayfire Information Services; Julie Harrington, Vice President, Marketing and Business Development, Research Institute of America; Donald Hawkins, Distinguished Member of the Technical Staff, AT&T; James Kollegger, Chairman and CEO, Genesys Partners Inc.; Huw Morgan, President, Infomart Dialog Limited; Michael Suchsland, Deputy Head, International Organization, CCH Incorporated; Mark Walsh, Senior Vice President and General Manager, Branded Internet Services; and Richard E. Wiley, Managing Partner, Wiley, Rein & Fielding. Established in 1968, IIA is home base for businesses involved in the development and delivery of the innovative products and services that are expanding the information marketplace worldwide. Our membership of more than 500 companies encompasses the entire information industry spectrum, including publishers, database providers, newspapers, hardware and software manufacturers, telecommunications companies, financial institutions, paging systems, electronicmail providers, voice information and interactive television pioneers. Contact: Andrea Peterson Meeting Coordinator Information Industry Association 555 New Jersey Avenue Suite 800 Washington, DC 20001 Phone: (202) 639-8262 Fax: (202) 638-4403 Email: sobolen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 02:04:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Re: Saturday e-mail postings >Laura, I'm SUPPOSED to be working. But guess what I'm doing? >Playing with Index-L! > |==========| > | Sonsie | > |==========| Sonsie, get to work! ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 02:33:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: Getting Paid Quicker I have historically been plagued by slow-paying companies. The last straw came a few months ago. I was *assured* by an editor on a Tuesday that a long-overdue check was going out that day by next day FedEx. Based on what I felt was a sure thing, I wrote a ton of checks for things like health insurancea and phone, i.e., things that would soon be cut off if certain companies didn't get some money soon. [This is a *bad* thing to do, I now know. It is not only dangerous but illegal and can get you thrown in jail!! I will never and I hope no one else out there would ever do this again]. Anyway, Wednesday came and went with no check. Then Thursday came and went with no check. I spent from about 11:00 to 2 pm Friday waiting and watching for the FedEx truck to get to the "shipping room" mailbox place that I use for my address. I got this so that readers of my book wouldn't show up at my door asking for me, (a few have showed up at the shipping room!), as if a person who buys Windows should expect to be able to drop by Bill's house for a few pointers. I called the editor and was *really* mad, insisting that if it didn't come soon I would be looking for them to do a wire transfer, and to their credit they were willing. Fortunately it came about 2:00 pm and I was able to get to the bank in time for deposit. I also did a lot of grovelling with a bank manager who assured me my world had not yet crashed in, and I was able to get a little green for a weekend caving trip. Anyway, I followed the advice of a friend and starting putting: "net 30 days, -5% 14 days" on my invoices. The result was immediate and dramatic. All of my clients have been paying me within the two weeks or soon after!!! On the advice of an accounting person at one of my big clients, I dropped the percentage to %2, which she says is typical. What's even more amazing is that only an occasional client actually subtracts the amount from the bill. I feel like a new man! Kevin Mulrooney ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie!! First State Indexing 276 East Main Street Newark, Delaware 19711 (302) 738-2558 Indexer@inetcom.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 12:42:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: Professional indemnity There is a story about an English indexer who was sued by Robert Maxwell for merging two entries into one - there were two Robert Maxwells (the other one was a spy), So it can happen - unless this is just an urban myth! Drusilla ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 09:32:33 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gail Thornburg Subject: Re[2]: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article WordBasic has a lot of points in its favor. We've implemented an electronic publishing environment for Requests for Proposals. using Word and WordBasic. Just keep in mind Woody Leonhard's remark [in _Windows 3.1 Programming for Mere Mortals_ I think]: "... it's still a young, pioneering, challenging, wild-west language." Gail Thornburg Frontier Engineering ***************************************************************** Actually I'm really glad I'm now a Windows person since I've become very excited about the possibilities for writing your own software using WinWord and its BASIC implementation. And hey, now I'm on the Internet! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 10:01:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In a message dated 95-09-17 00:16:15 EDT, you write: >when I was a real newbie about computers, I didn't KNOW the >"correct" terms for most of my problems! So the index had to be good to >help me find what I needed. And luckily, the first program I really had >to learn fast and well was WordPerfect. For that version (5.1), it had a >superb index that cross-referenced practically every conceivable term to >the proper computer nomenclature. Funny, but I found the WordPerfect index one of the *worst* because I *did* have a lot of experience before ever using it. I had been using other word processors for years and was in the habit of "opening a file" to work on a document. The index had no entries for either "file" or "opening." I eventually learned that in WP you "retrieve documents" but there was no cross reference in the index. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:42:21 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Getting Paid Quicker In-Reply-To: <199509170928.CAA02779@callamer.com> Kevin, your cautionary tale is one some of us have ALREADY learned from. :-( My husband and I are both self-employed, and our money maxim is, "the check is NEVER in the mail." Until we hold it in our hot, sweaty little hands, the check does not exist. And until the bank credits it to our account (you've heard of five- or even ten-day holds, haven't you?), the money must not be spent. Having said that, I hope you heard my sigh of relief as I finished your last paragraph! :-) I haven't tried the 30 day net, 15 day less 2% routine yet. Most of my clients pay in 30 days, so it hasn't been a major problem. However, I am doing more and more work for book packagers, who themselves rely on publishers to pay THEM for their work (and then =I= get paid). I've had a few glitches in the system, where the packager takes 30 days to submit a bill, the publisher takes 30 days to remit, and then I wait an additional 30 days for a check. I'm not exactly certain what to do about this, but maybe your system would work. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:46:03 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: <199509171406.HAA30523@callamer.com> Dick, you made me so curious I had to check out my old WP 5.1 books. Indeed, I started with 4.2, not 5.1. So all of my comments about the helpfulness of the 5.1 docs should really apply to version 4.2. In any event, those manuals sure helped a newbie a lot. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 06:21:27 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: GeoWorks Ensemble, Windows programming and Kevin Mulrooney says: > I was >just 3 weeks ago dragged kicking and screaming into the Windows world, when >I *finally* deleted GEOWORKS Ensemble, from which I had been running Windows >3.11 as an icon when I had to use WinWord!! My computer stud buddies tell >me that at the time Windows first came out, Ensemble was *way* better than >Windows and it still runs gloriously for my kids on my old 286. Alas, I >doubt if it's even available now. GeoWorks Ensemble is still very much alive and kicking. I believe it now includes Quattro Pro from Novell. I don't use it myself - I have to go with Windows because most of my income comes from teaching people about it - but I recommend it to my students, particularly those with a 386 or under. >Actually I'm really glad I'm now a Windows person since I've become very >excited about the possibilities for writing your own software using WinWord >and its BASIC implementation. And hey, now I'm on the Internet! For writing Windows programs, try Visual Basic - cheap, very intuitive and not hard to cobble together simple programs in. I can supply more details and some sample programs if people are interested. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 06:21:30 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Re: Cross-referencing indexing on-line information sources Lynn Moncrief wrote: >Jonathan, > >INDEX-L (with other online discussions related to indexing, etc.) is >indeed listed on the ASI Web site along with info on how to subscribe. >However, I'm not quite sure what you meant about attaching a tag or >header to all INDEX-L messages mentioning the URL. Perhaps if you >explained what would you like to accomplish with this idea, I'd >understand this more clearly. Dear Lynn, I'm not sure myself, not being an e-mail guru. I just wondered if it was technically possible for the listserver to add a line of text to the bottom (or top) of each e-mail message saying something like "Try the ASI Web Page on...whatever." - particularly if the archives are available that way. Many more people seem to take an interest in Web sites than in listservers, so that might be a convenient way of spreading the word through indexers' friends and colleagues. A more ambitious move would be to have a line of text that was changed every month or so - a kind of "Watch this space" announcement that could mention Web pages, conferences, newsgroups, whatever was topical. On the other hand, it might be an extravagant use of bandwidth. I guess the first step is to find out if it's possible (anyone out there know?) and then poll INDEX-L to decide if it's desirable. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:20:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Judie Kay Smith Subject: Subscribe subscribe Index L Judie K. Smith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:38:39 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. Gale Rhoades, Thank you for your comments. You are supporting me in what I was trying to say (but obviously missed communicating). I much prefer an REAL index, and as an indexer feel this is the only way to go. However, there are many people who believe that a machine generated index can be as good, especially with the indexing of files on the Internet that are supposed to be using some form of term weighting (along the lines piloted by people such as Salton years ago). Many computer people with whom I have worked (and I spent almost a decade lecturing with them) felt that an index could be prepared just with marking terms that occurred in the text. I accept that if the terminology in the text is precise (as in many manuals and technical books that I have seen and used) then that may be one way to go. However, I strongly agree with you that even a machine generated index could be vastly improved if such an index had some massaging by a professional, especially to include cross references and other terms that the non-technical minded of us use. Unfortunately there are too many techno-crats who believe that the machine can do anything that a human can do. Joan >Joan Jensen said: > >>> Do NOT confuse the "index" made by a computer program that is part of a >word processing package with content indexing done by a professional. The >first is really a concordance, compiled by the words (or phrases) marked as >they appear in the text. This system works fine for any book that is like >a manual (for example, like a computer text book), << > >I am primarily a computer consultant and do a lot of hand holding and training >which would NOT be necessary if more software and hardware manuals included a >decent index. Sorry Joan, but I cannot think of a single book which would be >helped by a concordance and even a "new" indexer can do better than any >automated indexing program I've seen! > >If manuals (including the index) were reviewed along with the product and >under >the same strict guidelines, I suspect that a lot of popular products would not >do as well in the computer industry. Too many words and terms are acronyms or >were "borrowed" from English with the result that the average user (and many >experts) have no idea how to find needed information when it is needed. Who >has >the time to read 300K of on-line files or an 800 page manual to find out how to >do some simple task? > >Gale Rhoades ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen Phone: 06 2492994 R.G. Menzies Library Building Fax: 06 2490058 Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:23:14 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Jensen Subject: Re: Saturday e-mail postings Please, I am not flaming, but I felt like it when I read this message - only one of 83 that came in this morning. Can people keep messages to the list to information that is of interest to readers of the list? Joan >>Laura, I'm SUPPOSED to be working. But guess what I'm doing? >Playing with >Index-L! > >> |==========| >> | Sonsie | >> |==========| > >Sonsie, get to work! > >----------------------------------------------------------------- >Dyslexics of the world untie!! > >First State Indexing >276 East Main Street >Newark, Delaware 19711 >(302) 738-2558 >Indexer@inetcom.net ======================================================================= Joan D Jensen Phone: 06 2492994 R.G. Menzies Library Building Fax: 06 2490058 Australian National University Canberra ACT 0200 Australia Be practical! Plan for a miracle every day. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:10:14 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sheryl Avruch Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. In-Reply-To: "Karl E. Vogel" "Re: Passing on request for opinions.." (Sep 16, 6:17pm) Thanks for the compliment, Karl. O'Reilly is committed to quality indexing. In fact, we have a full-time, dedicated indexer in house. Sometimes he touches up author-generated indexes, but usually he prepares the index "from scratch." Seth, our current indexer, didn't write the indexes you mention, but he has prepared many others, aiming for the same quality despite tight schedules. On Sep 16, 6:17pm, Karl E. Vogel wrote: > Subject: Re: Passing on request for opinions.. > >> On Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:12:28 -0700, > >> Kari Bero (bero@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu) said: > > K> Kudos to those who tackle the technical books! > > For what it's worth, some of the best indexes I've seen are in the Unix > books published by O'Reilly and Associates. They have quite a few nice > touches, like mentioning obscure error messages both in the index and a > separate appendix. Their "Sendmail" book is nearly 800 pages long, but > I've rarely had any trouble finding what I needed in a minute or two. > > -- > Karl Vogel vogelke@c17mis.wpafb.af.mil > Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 > > Excuse me while I pop upstairs to the basement. --M. C. Escher >-- End of excerpt from Karl E. Vogel -- Sheryl Avruch O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. Production Manager 90 Sherman Street sheryl@ora.com Cambridge, MA 02140 617/354-5800 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM)" Subject: address of asi web page/getting started in indexing someone recently mentioned that asi had a page on the web. i haven't been able to locate it (i only have access to the net at work and don't get that much time to surf) and would like to know if anyone can tell me the address of this page. also, i have been *trying* to get started in indexing for a couple of years now. i think my problem is just that i am afraid to commit myself to a job and then not be able to do it, or at least do it well. can anyone tell me if they had a problem of this kind and how they got past it? i am a public library cataloger with 20 years experience, and i'm sure this will help when i finally get started indexing. is there a point to my taking the usda correspondence course? by the way, i already have a 486 and cindex (not the latest version). i find that when i pick up a book just to try to index *for practice* i get very bogged down in detail and confused about what terms to include and what to omit. this may just be a lack of confidence, but it's keeping me from doing something i've wanted to do for a while. thanks in advance to all who try to help. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:57:00 BST-1 Reply-To: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hilary Calvert Subject: DOS Multitasking under Windows Here are some comments in response to Kevin's note about running MACREX as a DOS task under Windows 3.1. They will probably work for CINDEX too. The important thing is to install MACREX as a DOS task using a PIF file which should select "Windowed" for Display usage and have the background execution check box marked (we distribute a suitable PIF file). Providing Windows is running in enhanced mode MACREX will then run in the background. Windows needs a 386 or better to run in enhanced mode and will normally automatically do so on a suitable processor. You can tell if it is doing by looking at the control panel for an icon of a chip labelled 386 enhanced. You can also force windows to adopt enhanced mode by starting it with the command win/3 instead of win. Under Windows you have the advantage that you can cut and paste (using the edit option on the pull-down window menu) between MACREX and other applications. You can also do such things as running multiple copies of MACREX and having the text displayed in a WP package at the same time. As has been mentioned before Windows doesn't multitask very well and you need lots of memory for it to even have a decent stab at it. It's also good idea to back up often in case Windows falls over or one of the applications hangs the system. Hilary Calvert (co-author of MACREX) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Cindex over Windows In-Reply-To: <199509161458.JAA26557@zoom.bga.com> On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Carolyn Weaver wrote: > Like Dick, I always use Cindex over Windows. I routinely keep an Excel > spreadsheet running in background as my timesheet and then open Cindex from > the icon. To move between the two, just use ALT-ESC (which minimizes > Cindex) to get back to the Windows environment; then double-click the > Cindex icon and you're back indexing. Another trick I use is to use alt-enter to put CINDEX in a small window. I can continue to index or look at different formats while keeping track of e-mail or monitoring printing processes or other chores. It's especially useful when the text I'm indexing is in a Windows-based word processor. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:11:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: Cross-referencing indexing on-line information sources In-Reply-To: <9509180529.AA18243@carson.u.washington.edu> IMHO, ANY extraneous text in a message is over-kill, particularly for those of us who are routinely dealing with 100+ email msgs a day. It's much better to simply repeat an announcement periodically in the FAQ rather than inflict it routinely on the majority who don't need the information. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:19:47 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "LAUREN TITUS (WESLEY'S MOM)" Subject: address of asi homepage i *accidentally* found the asi homepage on my own. here's the address, in case anyone else needs it: www.missouri.edu/~libnh/ASI/ thanks to all who were trying to help. lauren ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:38:26 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment and costs You wrote: > >Lynn; > >All of your numerous points of reply to my post on equipment costs (Jackson >Yang's question) are well-taken. In fact there were *so* many good points, >you must be either 1) much busier than me at the moment, or 2) a *much* >better procrastinator than me, which is frightening to think of. Kevin, What's even scarier than #2 is that I'm a combination of both--busy and procrastinator. ;-D >There is such an incredible variety and divergence of experiences among >indexers, as the opposite views expressed by you and I attest. Despite having taken an opposite position, I think your advice and viewpoints are an extremely valuable counterpoint to mine. I've learned a lot from them for sure and I suspect that indexers who are just starting their businesses are very encouraged by them. > I intend to start hunting down some of these more advanced >publishers since I suspect they pay much better. I'm beginning to get an >uneasy feeling that I'm missing some kind of bandwagon, and I sure don't >want that to happen. I don't know if you really want to get on this bandwagon cause it often takes you for a ride on the wild side. ;-D While non-traditional publishers pay well, it can take a toll on the nervous system. Often the deadlines are very tight. I've had special couriers cooling their heels at my side while I frantically copied files to floppies to give them to take to my clients. Then there are the times when, for some reason, the indexed files go back to the writers who can't resist the urge to add more and change things and send the files back to you for more indexing. Aiiish! Plus, their scheduling slips can really wreck havoc with your own scheduling. For example, a book that was supposed to come in August of 94, finally arrived for indexing in June of 95. > > One should attempt to get as close to *your* scenario as >money allows, without losing sight of the fact that these are "mere >mechanical details" as we used to say at Uncle Dupy, and that the most >important aspect of getting started in any business is having a clear vision >of what you have to offer the world. That's what I mean by "Business is a >state of mind, not a set of accoutrements". >In other words, you can always add more accoutrements as time and success >allows, but if you don't have the state of mind a Cray Supercomputer won't >make you a good indexer. A wonderfully balanced viewpoint. I love your vision of business being a state of mind, not a set of accoutrements! It would be great to have a thread on that for indexing beginners. Hardware and software selection are only a small part of starting a business. Establishing the proper mindset is far more important to success than having the fastest microprocessor on the planet. Despite not having said this earlier, I thought you showed a wonderful amount of creativity and ingenuity in starting your own business (which you described in an earlier post). >Now that Lynn Moncrief, she is sure one *power* computing lady. She gets my >vote for Indexer.computing.goddess!! You should give a seminar sometime, if >you haven't already, about the whole imbedding process and what it is you >do. There are a lot of folks on this very list who are true computer gurus, way more so than myself. But thanks! :-D As for embedding, I wrote a 5-page handout on it that I'd be happy to send you. It's definitely *not* the optimal indexing environment, believe me. One survives vs. enjoys such projects and has to really jump through hoops to create a good index using those tools. Right now, I have only 10 pages left to index on a book (in Macrex) and will soon start embedding it in FrameMaker after editing it. And you see where I am... procrastinating on INDEX-L. ;-D >With all this talk about Pentiums and FrameMaker, I'm starting to feel >really inadequate since all I ever do is work in Cindex and format an ASCII >file. Oh dear, please don't feel inadequate!!!!!! As for that Pentium I ordered, it was only because I needed a second computer. My 486 is fine for the indexing and general business tasks I'm faced with now. I just went with a Pentium so that I won't be behind the curve when everything eventually moves to 64-bits and feel the need to buy yet another computer 18 months from now. (Though I did need a 17-in monitor for working in FrameMaker. On my 15-in, I can see only a few lines of text between the two(!) dialog boxes I have to keep on the screen when embedding.) >Furthermore, I *am* beginning to regret not getting a faster and >bigger computer, although at the time I felt it was all I could afford. In >particular, I have only a 14.4 modem, and the Web is very frustrating at >this speed; aggrevated by all the people who feel compelled to tile graphic >elements all over their pages. I hope I don't get performance anxiety. Maybe you can upgrade the system you have bit by bit. Bigger hard drive (like I desperately need to install in the 486), 28.8K modem, etc. And I hear you about those graphics laden Web pages! That's why we purposely stayed away from a lot of graphics on the ASI Web site. Performance anxiety? ROFL!!!! Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs P.S. I cut this paragraph from your message. But I had the same thought as you when I saw Sonsie's name. Wayyy cool name!! :-D Plus, there is someone here with the last name of Master and named his business "Master Indexing", something I'd die to be able to do!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:59:47 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Macrex (WAS: Re: Money Magazine article Kevin Mulroony wrote: > The other big difference is you >can't do the task-sharing, although you can task-switch with ctr-esc as >someone pointed out. You won't be able to start Cindex/Macrex on a long >sort or print job, then task-switch to another program while Cindex/Macrex >does its thing in the background. I'm still compartively new at Windows >(see below) so if I'm way off base someone (like say that Lynn Moncrief >computing goddess) will surely correct me. The "goddess" chiming in. ;-D You're right! Though I use Alt-Tab for switching from Macrex to important tasks in Windows like Solitaire. > > However, >Cindex and Macrex do a *lot* more than just format and alphabetize. There >are several other programs for PCs that are also quite cheap and also >more-or-less *just* format and alphabetize, if I'm not mistaken. I'm >working on a "techniques" article for Keywords about using the powerful >GROUPS command in Cindex to update existing indexes, either your own on disk >or scanned in. [Macrex has a similar capability]. I'm soooo glad you said that as I had meant to respond in that same vein to Lawrence Feldman's post. Plus there are powerful tools like cross-reference checking, macros and other wonderful shortcuts that really let you crank at hyperlight speeds when indexing. As for Group mode (Macrex's), I don't know how I ever lived without it. It even allows me to stop in the middle of a page, then come back and check to see what I've already done on it. And as a conceptualization and structuring tool it can't be beaten. Ever find that you've buried something too many times in subentries and that it should also have a main heading of its own? Group mode will make that a thousand times easier. I'm looking forward to your article, though I'm not a Cindex user. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:23:20 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mary Ellen Curtin Subject: Re: Getting Paid Quicker In-Reply-To: <9509172251.AB25026@mail-in.worldlink.com> I have an in some ways even more cautionary tale than Kevin's. About 10 years ago I indexed a philosophy book for an academic press. At that point that particular press was experimenting with having the author directly responsible for paying the indexer, abandoning their former practice of paying the indexer themselves and taking the money out of the author's royalties, or hide, or whatever (a practice to which they have since returned, thank heaven). Anyway, I did the index and submitted the bill (about $700, as I recall) to the author's university, as the money was supposed to come out of departmental funds. Time passed. I billed them again. More time passed. I billed them again. Nothing. By now more than _8 months_ had passed, the author was no longer working for the U in question, and she claimed total helplessness. Now comes the really embarrassing part. Why hadn't I made more of a stink before this? Because the U in question was the one at which MY FATHER was also a prof, and I somehow was led by this to trust them. So I called Dad and explained the situation, and he said it had become U policy for EVERY nonsalary expense of more than $200 to have to be approved by the president, personally. He (the U president, not Dad) figured it would cut expenses! Like, say, not having to pay indexers for 8 or 9 months . . . So I called the departmental office and used the words, "small claims court." I had the check in a week. I then added a line (cribbed from a plumber's bill) to my standard invoice, stating that "payment within 30 days would be appreciated. Late payments will be charged 2% per month interest." I haven't had a bit of trouble since. Mary Ellen internet: postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:27:06 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Professional indemnity >> There is a story about an English indexer who was sued by Robert Maxwell >> for merging two entries into one - there were two Robert Maxwells (the >> other one was a spy), So it can happen - unless this is just an urban >> myth! I have no idea if this one's a myth, but I do know from pretty good folklore that Maxwell did some *very* interesting things during The War (WWII that is). Maybe his quarrel was over the side he was represented as spying for. There also once really was a suit against the New York Times over its indexing: the Times published something erroneous about a person that was pretty bad. By the time they retracted it was in the index; they were sued over the index entry. I don't remember exactly what happened, but I'm reasonably sure the Times lost, had to settle, or whatever. Jessica Misltead ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Getting Paid Quicker Sonsie, I''ve had the same experience with packagers -- some of them have taken 2-3 months to pay. The publishers who wait to be paid by the publisher before they pay you are the ones who drag your payment out. After a few really awful experiences with this type of packager, I decided that I won't work for them. But not all packagers have that type of arrangement. I've found many packagers who have arranged for the publisher to receive your invoice directly, with their approval on the purchase order, so that you, the indexer, are paid by the publisher directly. That way, there is no time lag like with the first arrangement. I much prefer working for those packagers. Now, when I get a call from a packager I haven't worked for before, I ask who I will be invoicing, and how they arrange payment, before I agree to work for them. That has saved me from the long wait for payment more than once. Once burned, twice shy. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:16:00 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Start-up equipment Sonsie, Well, the "computer goddess" (not!) had written a reply to the first half of your message offline, then overwrote it when saving this one!!! :-D So much for seminars. Sonsie (with the coolest name ;-D) wrote: >I think we also must be aiming at different indexing markets. Most of my >clients (textbook publishers) want their indexes in ASCII. One client >insists on Cindex format, which is why I just recently shelled out >megabucks for Cindex. If your clients don't want ASCII and don't want >dedicated indexing software formats, what DO they want? Obviously, >FrameMaker is one choice. Actually more of my clients want indexes in word processor files than in FrameMaker. (Thank goodness!) Maybe they would take pure ASCII had I not offered a choice of formats. The one client I have who wants vanilla ASCII wants it with AAP codes inserted (along with a word processed file ;-D). Another one that I just started with *may* but they're still checking on that. (Weird, I know.) >And, from what you say, I'm perfectly happy to >eschew those clients for the time being. I simply can't afford to spend >several thousand on a Pentium with a bazillion megs of RAM just to earn >an addition dollar a page. I don't blame you one bit. I can't tell you how scarey a business decision it was to accomodate one of my most active clients' request for FrameMaker indexes, which started me off on that. It was a $1400 risk (RAM and software) but they projected so much work within a short time frame that I made back the investment and more. And I didn't even know that I needed the RAM until one panicky night when everything slowed to a near stop on my machine. >You must be working on far more sophisticated >projects than I am...or that any beginning indexer would ever be asked to >do--another reason why I think the KISS formula would work for a >beginner, where you (and I) would need more complex and expensive >equipment. Honestly, I don't think I work on more sophisticated projects than you or anyone else here--not in terms of indexing skills required. Perhaps we should consider what types of clients beginners should seek out to avoid having expensive equipment and software demands. That would take things closer to your position, IMHO. In discussing this with you, I see that my recommendations were more based on how things happened when I started my business (with high-tech firms) vs. what typically happens. > >Please understand that I really value your outlook on this, and actually >I agree with what you've been saying about quality of equipment. I'm just >remembering what being a beginner was like, and the kinds of projects I >was getting. I certainly wasn't in any sort of bidding war for $5-a-page >jobs that required years of experience and high-tech equipment to produce. > And I truly value yours, believe me, to the point where you have caused me to moderate my opinion somewhat. Thanks for the reality check. :-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:03:56 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Text of the handout we send to indexing clients (Long) After several requests we have decided to make available the text of the handout we send to indexing clients in response to enquiries. (The actual document is formatted a little more neatly). We are updating the handout all the time, so any comments or suggestions are welcome. Jonathan -------------------------------- Indexing Thank you for your enquiry about our indexing service. We have prepared this handout to cover some of the questions we are asked about the service we provide and the materials that we need in order to carry it out. Who Are We? We are Glenda Browne and Jonathan Jermey. Glenda has a BSc degree with majors in Biochemistry and Microbiology, an MSc in Biotechnology, and a Graduate Diploma of Information Management Librarianship. Jonathan has a BSc (Hons) in Psychology and a Masters' Degree in Cognitive Science. We have been indexing for about six years. Although we often collaborate on indexes, one or the other of us will take responsibility for dealing with a client regarding a specific index. We can be reached on (047) 398 199 or via e-mail at jonathan@magna.com.au What Do We Do? Although we are primarily back-of-book indexers, we have also worked on journal and database indexing. Glenda has a background in research, librarianship and TAFE teaching, while Jonathan is involved in PC training, programming and the production of computer-based training materials. How Much Do We Charge? Before beginning an index we will need to arrange an agreed-upon quote, based on as much information as you can give us about the type and size of the book, and the depth of indexing you require. Until we have seen page proofs we can only give an estimate of the cost of an indexing job. Our charge for indexing is based on the AUSSI standard rate, currently (April 1995) $35 p.h. Because books vary enormously in depth and complexity it is impossible for us to give an estimate before seeing a substantial portion of the final manuscript. Naturally the overall cost is higher where more depth or additional indexing (e.g. of names) is required. If the quote we provide is outside your range, let us know and we may be able to negotiate for a less detailed index. At the very least we would like an acknowledement that the quote has been received. We will normally submit an invoice to the client with the completed index. For a long-term project, or where there are substantial delays in receiving materials, we may submit interim invoices (e.g. monthly) for payment of the work done to date. What Do We Need From You? 1. A verbal or written work agreement, setting out what should be included in the index (e.g. tables, maps, Introduction) and what should be left out (e.g. names of authors cited in the text): we also need to know when we will receive the page proofs, when you want the final copy, and in what format (e.g. Word for Windows 6.0, WordPerfect 5.1, etc...) 2. The page proofs of the book in its final form. We are very reluctant to index a manuscript before the final page numbers are set. 3. A style sheet setting out how you want the references to appear, any special requirements for sequencing, bold and italic, and so on. Where these details are not supplied we will use our own discretion. 4. If the manuscript is particularly large, the index particularly complex, or the topic is one of general interest, then we would often appreciate a copy of the published book to add to our collection of trophies. 5. We would also appreciate acknowledgement in the published book. How Do We Work? We normally work in four stages: 1. We go through the page proofs highlighting significant topics. At this level we tend to overindex to ensure that we have everything relevant. This takes roughly 20-30% of our time. 2. We type the topics into a database using the indexing program Macrex. This allows us to specify the language used and to see the topics arranged in alphabetical order. This goes on in conjunction with Stage 1, and takes 30-45% of our time. 3. We make several passes through the database, eliminating redundant topics, tidying up the terms used and checking cross-references. This takes 20-30% of our time. 4. We transfer the index across to Word for Windows and do a spelling check and draft printout before making any final revisions and setting up the format. This takes 5-10% of our time. It is at Stages 1 and 2 that the depth and detail are added to the index, and requests for a cheaper or shallower index can only be met by cutting down the time spent during these stages. Stages 3 and 4 take roughly the same time regardless of the quality of index required. What About Electronic Indexing? Although we have tried indexing directly from manuscripts on disk, in practice this tends to be slower and less effective than the traditional means of indexing from paper. Electronic indexing depends on getting the index entry right first time, every time, while in practice most of our work involves massaging the initial entries into a consistent, usable form. Electronic indexing is also much less portable and a lot harder on the eyes and hands. At the moment we prefer to work from paper, although we are happy to quote for electronic indexing. What Have We Done So Far? We have indexed nearly 30 books. A selection is given below: Indexer Title Publisher Pp. Date GB Chemistry in the Marketplace Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 650 July 198 9 GB The Exceptional Child Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 710 June 199 0 GB & JJ Economics: Principles and Policy Harcourt Brace Jovanovich 900 July 1992 JJ Corporate Finance Harcourt Brace 740 August 1992 GB & JJ Nurding and the Injustices of the Law Harcourt Brace 280 July 199 3 GB AIDS Manual McLennan & Petty 244 June 1994 JJ Elderly Australians Harcourt Brace 173 August 1994 JJ Annual Report Dept. of Corrective Services 106 October 1994 GB Pharmacology and Drug Information for Nurses Harcourt Brace 900 December 1994 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:40:31 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades Subject: DOS Programs under Windows, Macrex and more This epistle is intended to respond to several recent INDEX-L postings. 1. Gail Thornburg asked where she could get information about the Macrex indexing software. 2. Several people raised the issue of running Macrex (and other DOS programs) under Windows 3.x All properly written DOS programs can run under Windows. While it is possible to do so by simply selecting the MS-DOS Prompt and then going to the appropriate subdirectory, there are severe drawbacks to doing so -- such as losing the ability to print an index in the background while doing another task and the loss of the PrintScreen function. Windows 3.x comes with a program called PIFEDIT. This utility allows you to create or modify a Program Information File (PIF). There are many settings which are available to you in this PIF, including the aforementioned background printing and PrintScreen (on the ADVANCED options screen). If you start by loading an existing PIF (such as DOSPRMPT.PIF) it may be a little easier to see what can be set. The on-line help tends to encompass some rather technical stuff but also includes some very literate user language. To my knowledge this on-line help is the only documentation available on the PIF editor -- the programmer who wrote it (so the story goes) does not work well with writers and sees no value to printed documentation. The PIF starts with four boxes: Program Filename (this can be a .BAT, a .COM or a .EXE and must normally include the path to the program. For example, if the MCX.BAT is in the MX6 subdirectory of drive C, you would enter: C:\MX6\MCX.BAT) Window title (What do you want to see as a description for the icon For example, Macrex 6.32) Optional Parameters (If you are building a PIF for a specific index, the name of that index would go here. For example, to automatically load the Macrex tutorial file, you would enter TUTOR in this box) Startup Directory (In the case of the Macrex tutorial -- and presuming you used the default location during the installation, you would put C:\MX6\TUTOR in this box) Items two and four (Window Title and Startup Directory) can be overwritten later. The other two items can only be changed by modifying the PIF with PIFEDIT. Note that in the lower right corner of the PIF Editor window is an option called EXECUTION followed by two choices (Background and Exclusive) If you want to print while working in another program, you will need to check the box preceeding BACKGROUND. At the bottom of the PIF window is a button (Advanced...) Pressing this button brings up the addtional options screen. At the bottom of the screen is a section called Reserve Shortcut Keys. To have the DOS PrintScreen function as it would if you were not using Windows, put a check in the box preceeding PrtSc. Once you have a modified PIF, you need to save it to the hard disk. Use File/SaveAs and specify new name (so you don't overwrite the original PIF). For simplification, let's say the name is MACREX.PIF. Be sure that the active directory is your Windows directoy. Exit PIFEDIT and return to Program Manager. Select the group into which you want the program icon to appear. You know a group is selected when its title bar is the same color as the Program Manager title bar. Now do File/New. Program Item should have a dot in the circle -- press the OK button. Now Program Item Properties window will appear and there will be four boxes. If you want to use the description (Window title) and working directory (Startup Directory) specified in the PIF, you need only be concerned with the second (Command Line) box. The name (and location if it is not in the Windows subdirectory) of your PIF goes in this box. Once this is done, press OK -- there will be a new icon in your group box. Double click on the icon to sure the PIF works properly. At this point you may settle for the icon WIndows assigned or you may select another. Highlight the icon (click once) and then do File/Properties to bring back the Program Item Properties window. Press the Change Icon button. You will probably get a warning that there is no icon available for the specfied file -- just press OK. All Windows installations include two sources of icons: PROGMAN.EXE and MORICONS.DLL. If you don't see anything you like in PROGMAN, you may use BROWSE to load MORICONS.DLL or any other icon. Once you've found one you like, just double-click on it and you should be back to the Program Item Properties WIndow with the selected icon showing in the lower left corner. Press OK and you are done. Remember, you may change the description, the working (startup) directory or the icon for any program at anytime from the File/Properties selections of Program Manager. Anyone with questions on how to make this procedure work on their system may send direct e-mail so we don't clutter up Index-L with off-subject discussions. Incidentally, Macrex can read and create both database compatible and Cindex backup files. Those who are concerned that they need to buy another program to deliver the desired format to a publisher should contact us for more information. Now, about getting Macrex: In North America (Canada and US): Macrex Sales & Support Office P. O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 94015 voice: 415-756-0821 fax: 415-757-1567 e-mail: macrex@aol.com In Australia, New Zealand, and South East Asia: Master Indexing 44 Rothesay Avenue East Mavern Vic. 3145 Australia voice: (03) 9571 6341 fax: (03) 9571 6341 e-mail: mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world: Macrex Indexing Services Beech House Blaydon Burn Tyne & Wear NE21 6JR ENGLAND voice: 0191 414 2595 fax & BBS: 0191 414 1893 e-mail: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:15:45 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: Cindex over Windows Another great trick for Cindex and Windows applications: You can write out Cindex indexes in a .dat file and open the data in Excel, which is great when you need to hand off an Excel spreadsheet index (something that I get asked for frequently). Likewise, you can import an Excel spreadsheet of entries into Cindex. I do this all the time when I either need more specialized fields than Cindex can provide, or need to have the data in Excel for a handoff. Be sure to use the fields= delimiter so that everything lines up in Excel. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 17:12:52 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Justine Carson Subject: Re: getting past "indexer's block" In-Reply-To: <199509182146.OAA26573@mail3.netcom.com> from "LAUREN TITUS" at Sep 18, 95 10:37:04 am I would recommend choosing a book with which you are familiar. Don't try to index the whole thing at first -- start with a few chapters. Being familiar with the content may help you to decide what is important and what is not. But don't be too worried about being over-detailed, it is easier to eliminate entries later if you decide they are not needed than to go back and look for the items you skipped because you thought they were insignificant when you first encountered them. Much of the work of indexing is editing the entries after you see how they all fall together, but you can't start the editing until you have the entries. It's probably also helpful to choose book that has a good index. That way you have something with which you can compare your own index. You mention that you already have indexing software, but if you have not yet used it, you may find it easier to start with indexing cards or a word processing package so that you don't get bogged down in trying to learn the indexing process and the indexing software at the same time. Anyone else have comments on the pros and cons of learning both at the same time? _______________________________________________________________________________ Justine Carson jhcarson@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:30:48 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Peter Meyer Subject: Re: Cindex over Windows Neva J Smith wrote: >Another trick I use is to use alt-enter to put CINDEX in a small window. >I can continue to index or look at different formats while keeping track >of e-mail or monitoring printing processes or other chores. It's >especially useful when the text I'm indexing is in a Windows-based word >processor. You can also Alt-Tab between applications in windows. Just hold down the alt key and tab. Release the Alt key when the application you want is shown in the dialog box. Peter Meyer ______________________________________________________________________________ Peter W Meyer pmeyer@desklaw.com.au Desktop Law Pty Limited Ph: +61 2 9922 3096 PO Box 244, Lindfield, NSW 2070 Fax: +61 2 9929 8396 Australia Mobile: 018 245 128 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:31:28 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Page Ranges in MS Word 6.0 I used CINDEX to create an index for a corporate client who uses MS Word 6.0 for Windows to develop technical documentation; however, because the client really wanted index tags embedded in the MS Word files, I found a subcontractor to do that piece of the work. Actually, the client wants something that may be nearly impossible to produce -- an index generated by embedded tags in MS Word that looks exactly like the index I created with CINDEX. The biggest problem we've encountered so far concerns bookmarks to create page ranges. Word 5 allowed left and right parentheses -- ( ) -- to indicate the range in index markers; however, my subcontractor tells me that some Word 6 experts she knows say that Word 6 is much more complicated and that bookmarks are so unreliable that they should be avoided in indexing. If you have experience indexing with MS Word 6.0, please let me know if you've had a problem creating page ranges with bookmarks and, if you have, please let me know if you've found a workaround for this problem. Thanks in advance. Lori Lathrop *********************************************************************** Lathrop Media Services ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 / 303-567-4011 or 303-567-9533 *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:34:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Patricia Deminna Subject: ASI Web page access Today I took the plunge, downloaded and installed AOL's browser, and spent some time browsing the WEB. One of the sites I explored was of course ASI's home page, which I listed in my "Favorite Places" window. When I tried to connect this evening though, I was greeted by a message telling me that access was denied, and that I perhaps needed to contact the owner of the site. Being a cyberspace neophyte, I'm sure that I've no doubt been remiss. Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance! Pat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 02:56:34 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Gale Rhoades Subject: DOS Programs under Windows, Macrex and more This epistle is intended to respond to several recent INDEX-L postings. It was first sent on 8/18 but apparently was lost in the "ether" as I did not receive an acknowledgement. If it is a duplicate, please excuse my error. 1. Gail Thornburg asked where she could get information about the Macrex indexing software. 2. Several people raised the issue of running Macrex (and other DOS programs) under Windows 3.x All properly written DOS programs can run under Windows. While it is possible to do so by simply selecting the MS-DOS Prompt and then going to the appropriate subdirectory, there are severe drawbacks to doing so -- such as losing the ability to print an index in the background while doing another task and the loss of the PrintScreen function. Windows 3.x comes with a program called PIFEDIT. This utility allows you to create or modify a Program Information File (PIF). There are many settings which are available to you in this PIF, including the aforementioned background printing and PrintScreen (on the ADVANCED options screen). If you start by loading an existing PIF (such as DOSPRMPT.PIF) it may be a little easier to see what can be set. The on-line help tends to encompass some rather technical stuff but also includes some very literate user language. To my knowledge this on-line help is the only documentation available on the PIF editor -- the programmer who wrote it (so the story goes) does not work well with writers and sees no value to printed documentation. The PIF starts with four boxes: Program Filename (this can be a .BAT, a .COM or a .EXE and must normally include the path to the program. For example, if the MCX.BAT is in the MX6 subdirectory of drive C, you would enter: C:\MX6\MCX.BAT) Window title (What do you want to see as a description for the icon For example, Macrex 6.32) Optional Parameters (If you are building a PIF for a specific index, the name of that index would go here. For example, to automatically load the Macrex tutorial file, you would enter TUTOR in this box) Startup Directory (In the case of the Macrex tutorial -- and presuming you used the default location during the installation, you would put C:\MX6\TUTOR in this box) Items two and four (Window Title and Startup Directory) can be overwritten later. The other two items can only be changed by modifying the PIF with PIFEDIT. Note that in the lower right corner of the PIF Editor window is an option called EXECUTION followed by two choices (Background and Exclusive) If you want to print while working in another program, you will need to check the box preceeding BACKGROUND. At the bottom of the PIF window is a button (Advanced...) Pressing this button brings up the addtional options screen. At the bottom of the screen is a section called Reserve Shortcut Keys. To have the DOS PrintScreen function as it would if you were not using Windows, put a check in the box preceeding PrtSc. Once you have a modified PIF, you need to save it to the hard disk. Use File/SaveAs and specify new name (so you don't overwrite the original PIF). For simplification, let's say the name is MACREX.PIF. Be sure that the active directory is your Windows directoy. Exit PIFEDIT and return to Program Manager. Select the group into which you want the program icon to appear. You know a group is selected when its title bar is the same color as the Program Manager title bar. Now do File/New. Program Item should have a dot in the circle -- press the OK button. Now Program Item Properties window will appear and there will be four boxes. If you want to use the description (Window title) and working directory (Startup Directory) specified in the PIF, you need only be concerned with the second (Command Line) box. The name (and location if it is not in the Windows subdirectory) of your PIF goes in this box. Once this is done, press OK -- there will be a new icon in your group box. Double click on the icon to sure the PIF works properly. At this point you may settle for the icon WIndows assigned or you may select another. Highlight the icon (click once) and then do File/Properties to bring back the Program Item Properties window. Press the Change Icon button. You will probably get a warning that there is no icon available for the specfied file -- just press OK. All Windows installations include two sources of icons: PROGMAN.EXE and MORICONS.DLL. If you don't see anything you like in PROGMAN, you may use BROWSE to load MORICONS.DLL or any other icon. Once you've found one you like, just double-click on it and you should be back to the Program Item Properties WIndow with the selected icon showing in the lower left corner. Press OK and you are done. Remember, you may change the description, the working (startup) directory or the icon for any program at anytime from the File/Properties selections of Program Manager. Anyone with questions on how to make this procedure work on their system may send direct e-mail so we don't clutter up Index-L with off-subject discussions. Incidentally, Macrex can read and create both database compatible and Cindex backup files. Those who are concerned that they need to buy another program to deliver the desired format to a publisher should contact us for more information. Now, about getting Macrex: In North America (Canada and US): Macrex Sales & Support Office P. O. Box 3051 Daly City, CA 94015 voice: 415-756-0821 fax: 415-757-1567 e-mail: macrex@aol.com In Australia, New Zealand, and South East Asia: Master Indexing 44 Rothesay Avenue East Mavern Vic. 3145 Australia voice: (03) 9571 6341 fax: (03) 9571 6341 e-mail: mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world: Macrex Indexing Services Beech House Blaydon Burn Tyne & Wear NE21 6JR ENGLAND voice: 0191 414 2595 fax & BBS: 0191 414 1893 e-mail: hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:03:11 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Page Ranges in FrameMaker I have limited experience with FrameMaker, so I was surprised last week when a technical writer at a client site told me that FrameMaker has a bug that makes it impossible to create any index entries with page ranges if any of the other entries in the index contain *See* or *See also* references. Somehow, although I'm not a fan of DTP software that uses embedded index tags, I find that hard to believe. If you have extensive experience creating indexes in FrameMaker documents, please let me know if the technical writer was correct. Thanks in advance. Lori Lathrop *********************************************************************** Lathrop Media Services ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 / 303-567-4011 or 303-567-9533 *********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:26:41 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: address of asi web page/getting started in indexing In-Reply-To: <199509182249.SAA12877@freenet2.scri.fsu.edu> Lauren, You have expressed one of the universal problems new indexers experience. The best suggestion I can make is to continue indexing and have someone else critique or even edit your index behind you. When trying to decide how much detail to include in an index, put yourself in the reader's position. Define the high points--what are the broad subject areas the user of this particular publication would search for? What alternative terminology might various readers use? Make appropriate cross-references. Now you've sketched out the big picture. Add detail with subheadings, like fleshing out the bones of the skeleton you've already created. Remember, indexes have to work. They should not simply be an intellectual exercise for the indexer. If the reader can't use the index it is not a good index regardless of how detailed or inclusive it is. So my advice is look at the forest first, fly overhead and get a feel for the lay of the land. Then zoom in on the trees. Susan Healy welshone@scri.fsu.edu s.healy@genie.geis.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:29:45 EDT Reply-To: nharwood@grad.usda.gov Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norma Harwood Subject: Re: ASI Web page access >Today I took the plunge, downloaded and installed AOL's browser, and spent >some time browsing the WEB. One of the sites I explored was of course ASI's >home page, which I listed in my "Favorite Places" window. When I tried to >connect this evening though, I was greeted by a message telling me that >access was denied, and that I perhaps needed to contact the owner of the >site. Being a cyberspace neophyte, I'm sure that I've no doubt been remiss. >Can anyone shed some light? Thanks in advance! > >Pat Hi Pat: I also have an account with AOL and have tried to use their web browser. Sometimes when you get those error messages, I have found that the site is simply busy, or in AOL's case, something with them is not letting you through. I also have a Netcom account which I find much more reliable for www looking. I am really in hopes AOL gets it together; they are missing the boat with all the problems they are having. Of course, living in DC area with this population, lines get tied up fast. Hang in there though; it's worth it. Just wanted to let you know it's not your doing. Norma Harwood nharwood@grad.usda.gov http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:05:10 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Text of the handout we send to indexing clients (Long) Jonathan, What an excellent handout!!! Thanks for sharing it with us! I'd like to address what you said below about electronic indexing. Glenda and Jonathan wrote: >What About Electronic Indexing? > >Although we have tried indexing directly from manuscripts on disk, in >practice this tends to be slower and less effective than the traditional >means of indexing from paper. Electronic indexing depends on getting the >index entry right first time, every time, while in practice most of our work >involves massaging the initial entries into a consistent, usable form. >Electronic indexing is also much less portable and a lot harder on the eyes >and hands. At the moment we prefer to work from paper, although we are happy >to quote for electronic indexing. > First of all, I always insist that publishers send me the hard copy page proofs along with the disk files. I find it impossible to work only from the screen, especially given that in FrameMaker much of the screen real estate is given over to two dialog boxes. (Once a client forgot and I ended up printing out the 300-page book myself vs. waiting a day for them to send me the pages.) Secondly, though I don't quite understand what you meant by having to get the index entry right the first time when embedding (being that all of the products I've used allow editing your entries), I found it extremely helpful to create the index first in dedicated indexing software. (Not all projects allow time to do this.) That's where I do all of the massaging needed and finish the index there just as I would if I were going to deliver a non-embedded index. I use Macrex, but I'm sure Cindex also has the capability of generating a page-order sort which is the next step in the process. I then embed the index entries into the electronic files using the page-order sort as a guide. One does have to fight the temptation to "adjust" the index while embedding because this can introduce structural and other problems that need to be cleaned up later. The final step is just cleaning up any typos, etc. made in the embedding process after generating the index from the files. If time doesn't allow creating the index first in dedicated indexing software, I frequently regenerate the index while embedding so that I can see the structure of it as it's forming. This is a big pain, but it helps reduce the huge editing nightmare at the end. Because preparing the index first in dedicated indexing software adds a lot of time to the project, I recommend building this into ones charges. Hope this helps if anyone wants you to index from electronic files. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:37:46 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: Page Ranges in FrameMaker Lori, I've never ever run into that problem with FrameMaker and all of my indexes have page ranges and *See* and *See also* tags. Unless this bug is a new undocumented "feature" of FrameMaker 5.0 (I use 4.0), the writer may be doing something incorrectly, as page ranges and cross-references both require special coding. FrameMaker does have a bug (which I reported to Frame Technology), but it doesn't interfere with creating indexes. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Lori wrote: > >I have limited experience with FrameMaker, so I was surprised last week >when a technical writer at a client site told me that FrameMaker has a bug >that makes it impossible to create any index entries with page ranges if >any of the other entries in the index contain *See* or *See also* >references. Somehow, although I'm not a fan of DTP software that uses >embedded index tags, I find that hard to believe. > >If you have extensive experience creating indexes in FrameMaker documents, >please let me know if the technical writer was correct. > >Thanks in advance. > >Lori Lathrop >*********************************************************************** >Lathrop Media Services ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com >P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 / 303-567-4011 or 303-567-9533 >*********************************************************************** > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:55:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Indexers' Halloween Hoot =20 The South Central Chapter of ASI is=20 horribly pleased to announce the=20 Indexers' Halloween Hoot Saturday, October 28, 1995 School of Library and Information Science, Room 464 University of Texas at Austin PROGRAM 9:00 Registration, coffee, tea, and pastries 9:30 Welcome Kay Banning, President; Neva J. Smith President-Elect/Program Chair 9:45 Looking at Wilson Award Indexes A panel will review and comment on a few ASI-H.W. Wilson Award-winning indexes. Linda K. Fetters will introduce the Award with some behind-the-scene insights. Registrants are encouraged to bring questions and to participate in an informal discussion with the panel.=20 11:00 Hands-on Indexing Attendees will index the article "Rethinking the Rules: The Story Behind Kid's Catalog" both as if it is a book and as an article. Facilitators will lead a discussion of the indexes produced. Instructions and a copy of the article will be sent to each registrant. (Permission to use the article has been granted by School Library Journal.) 12:30 Catered lunch by Sassy's There will be a table for informal discussion of newcomers' and beginners' issues -- from coursework to starting your own freelance indexing business.=20 1:30 "Revising a Computer-Generated Index." (A horror story preview) Given the task of revising a computer-generated index to the first volume of an 11 volume reference set, Chapter President Kay Banning describes the task of identifying initial problems, the logistics of working with the computer files, and the editing process using the client's priorities and limitations.=20 2:00 Indexing Horror Stories Registrants are requested to search the dark corners of their memories for their most harrowing indexing experiences. We will share our eye-rolling, groaning, and teeth-gnashing stories in the spirit of Halloween. 3: 00 Report from Montr=82al Neva J. Smith and Linda Webster will present highlights of the joint meeting of ASI and the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada in Montre=82al last June. There were several ideas worth "stealing," as you'll discover in this program and at the business meeting. 3:15 Break 3:30 Business meeting Issues to be discussed at the business meeting include * nominations committee to prepare a slate of officers=20 * 2-day meeting concept report and discussion * publicity for spring meeting, registration, etc. * city for fall 1996 meeting * membership survey, purpose, questions to use=20 * desirability of a chapter website * how can we bring together the members of our widespread chapter * local program/networking subgroups * outreach/co-sponsoring programs with related professional associations * feedback for the National organization/board of directors >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Registration Form<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Registration includes hands-on indexing material, handouts, and drinks, snacks, and catered lunch on site. For registrations received before October 21, the hands-on indexing article will be mailed via the U. S. Postal Service. You must send a stamped ($.55) self-addressed standard business-sized envelope for the article with your registration, or include the fax fee listed below. For registrations received after October 21 you may request fax delivery ($5) or you may pick up your article when you arrive. Name: USPS mailing address: Phone, Day ______________ Evening _____________ Fax number if you want fax delivery of article for hands-on indexing ($5) ________________ ____ $25 registration postmarked September 29 ____ $35 registration postmarked by October 14 ____ $40 at the door ____ $5 fax delivery of article for the hands-on indexing workshop ____ $ total enclosed=20 Please make checks Payable to: South Central Chapter/ASI Mail registration to=20 Neva J. Smith DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 Round Rock, TX 78680. Remember to include your SASE for your copy of the hands-on indexing article, or check the fax delivery option. Local Hotels There are no "conference" hotels. However, the following are all close to the university (5-10 minutes away). Guest Quarters at 303 W. 15th Street at Lavaca: (512) 478-7000 Marriott just off I35 at 11th Street: (512) 478-1111 Motel 6, 5330 North I35: (512) 467-9111 Holiday Inn Town Lake, I35 at Town Lake Rd.: (512) 472-8211 Holiday Inn Airport, 6911 North I35: (512) 459-4251 Directions From=20I35: Take the Martin Luther King exit and travel west on MLK. The University of Texas will be on your right. Turn into the university at the Speedway St./Congress Ave. entrance. The first building on your left is the Education building which houses the School of Library and Information Science. On your right is a large parking lot. Be careful to avoid spaces marked "reserved at all times." For those flying in: The trip to the university from the airport is about 15 minutes. Call or e-mail Neva Smith for more information or directions.=20 (512) 244-2767; njsmith@bga.com > =3D - * - =3D < =3D > =3D - * - =3D < =3D > =3D - * - =3D < =3D > =3D - *= - =3D < =3D Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services = =20 PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Ghosts at the Indexers' Halloween Hoot In-Reply-To: <199509191558.KAA28352@zoom.bga.com> Sorry about the =20's in the Halloween Hoot announcement- they weren't there when I sent it off... Just a few friendly ghosts, I expect. Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:21:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lynn Moncrief Subject: Re: page ranges in FrameMaker Lori, I've never ever run into that problem with FrameMaker and all of my indexes have page ranges and *See* and *See also* tags. Unless this bug is a new undocumented "feature" of FrameMaker 5.0 (I use 4.0), the writer may be doing something incorrectly, as page ranges and cross-references both require special coding. FrameMaker does have a bug (which I reported to Frame Technology), but it doesn' t interfere with creating indexes. Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Lori wrote: > >I have limited experience with FrameMaker, so I was surprised last week >when a technical writer at a client site told me that FrameMaker has a bug >that makes it impossible to create any index entries with page ranges if >any of the other entries in the index contain *See* or *See also* >references. Somehow, although I'm not a fan of DTP software that uses >embedded index tags, I find that hard to believe. > >If you have extensive experience creating indexes in FrameMaker documents, >please let me know if the technical writer was correct. > >Thanks in advance. > >Lori Lathrop >*********************************************************************** >Lathrop Media Services ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com >P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 / 303-567-4011 or 303-567-9533 >*********************************************************************** Everyone, I apologize if the following is either a duplicate or is blank. Netcom is at it's absolute buggiest today!!! > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:53:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: Re: Professional indemnity Jessica Milstead wrote: >>> There is a story about an English indexer who was sued by Robert Maxwell >>> for merging two entries into one - there were two Robert Maxwells (the >>> other one was a spy), So it can happen - unless this is just an urban >>> myth! > >I have no idea if this one's a myth, but I do know from pretty good folklore >that Maxwell did some *very* interesting things during The War (WWII that >is). Maybe his quarrel was over the side he was represented as spying for. If he was confused with another Maxwell who was spying for the Nazis, then I could understand his suing--he lost most of his family in the Holocaust. Let us all be reminded that we have a responsibility to be accurate in our indexing, and to query the editor/author if things don't look right. It never hurts to ask for clarification--even as a note along with the finished index. Elinor Lindheimer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Getting Paid Quicker In-Reply-To: <199509190517.WAA27942@callamer.com> Janet, I recently completed a job for a packager I've worked with for a number of trouble-free years (WRT invoicing, that is). On this particular book, I was requested to invoice the packager, who would include my fees in HIS fee. He duly submitted his invoice, and after nearly two months I finally called and complained that I had not received payment. He agreed that the publisher was taking an unconscionably long time, and immediately paid me my full fee out of his own pocket, so to speak. In future, though, I'll do as you suggest and ask up-front how (and whom) I invoice. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:22:54 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Professional indemnity In-Reply-To: <199509190517.WAA01187@callamer.com> Jessica, if the Times was responsible for publishing the index as well as the original erroneous statement, I doubt that the individual who actually created the index could reasonably be held responsible for the error. After all, he or she worked with the information the Times provided, and did not (I assume) create the entries out of whole cloth. I'd think an indexer might be held responsible ONLY if the error was his or her fault (i.e., the Robert Maxwell thing, if the writer had correctly identified the two people but the indexer screwed up the entries). |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:26:24 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Text of the handout we send to indexing clients (Long) In-Reply-To: <199509190517.WAA03550@callamer.com> Jonathon, thanks so much for providing us with a copy of your handout. I haven't created one myself, but after following the list for awhile I can certainly see the benefits. You've given me some very good food for thought, and I appreciate it. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:33:27 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Text of Handout Thank you, Glenda and Jonathan, for posting the text of your professional handout. It was food for thought. When contacting publishers, I use a letter and resume, and include a list of books indexed (distilled down to 1 sheet only). Your posting led me to wonder how other indexers approach contacts with new publishers. Do you all use a resume and cover letter as I do? How many have handouts such as Glenda and Jonathan's, or actual brochures? I've been toying with the idea of a brochure. I've seen some indexers use them, but don't know really what the norm is. All feedback will be welcome. Thank you, Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:33:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: Start-up equipment In-Reply-To: <199509190546.WAA01088@callamer.com> Lynn, as usual, you've done a great job finding the middle path! I think, in fact, you've probably hit upon the difference between what you do and what I do (and also what a beginner is likely to do). You do indexing for high-tech companies, putting out high-tech documents, using the very latest in equipment. So naturally you have to be able to provide them with high-tech indexes! Makes perfect sense to me, and certainly explains your higher initial outlay. Most of my clients are mainstream publishers--big ones and small ones--who haven't yet quite entered the information age. Until the past couple of years, many did not even have computers for most of their workers...when they asked for a disk from me, they had to scurry around to find the computer guru in the office, who was the only one with a computer. Most did not have modems and had never thought of being able to transfer a completed index virtually instantaneously. In some cases, I've led them by the hand into the late 20th century...even unto explaining what ASCII is! And, like you, the only reason I got FrameMaker was because for a brief moment it looked as if I was going to be doing a lot of work for a computer book publisher who needed output and embedding and all that in FrameMaker. In fact, it was documentation for that program itself! Sooner or later, I'm going to crack the cover on the software and teach myself to use it. And then I'll be able to offer at least a modicum of experience when I'm next asked to tackle a high-tech index. |==========| | Sonsie | |==========| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Spirits of Indexing Calling all Indexing Spirits, Ghosts, and Goblins! As many of you know by now, the South Central Chapter is holding a Halloween Hoot and Indexing Conference on October 28 in Austin, Texas. If you can't come in the flesh, and would like to send your spirit, I am collecting Indexing Horror Stories to share at the meeting. Write to me about indexing boo-boos, handling your business-client relations, or any other skeletons lurking in your closet. Include what you did to fix the situation, or how you would handle it if it came up again (as evil spirits are bound to do). E-mail me directly at njsmith@bga.com Happy Haunting! Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:59:17 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Neal Dench Subject: Re: Page Ranges in FrameMaker In-Reply-To: <20603.199509191007@holly.cam.harlequin.co.uk> (message from Lori Lathrop on Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:03:11 EDT) >> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:03:11 EDT, Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> said: Lori> I have limited experience with FrameMaker, so I was surprised Lori> last week when a technical writer at a client site told me Lori> that FrameMaker has a bug that makes it impossible to create Lori> any index entries with page ranges if any of the other entries Lori> in the index contain *See* or *See also* references. Somehow, Lori> although I'm not a fan of DTP software that uses embedded Lori> index tags, I find that hard to believe. Lori> If you have extensive experience creating indexes in Lori> FrameMaker documents, please let me know if the technical Lori> writer was correct. I'm a technical author who has been using FrameMaker since 1991. I've used it for creating indexes many times, and have never come across anything similar to what you describe. I should add that, although I have used FrameMaker on Unix, PC and Mac, I've probably only created indexes using the Unix version. It's possible that there is a bug on another version. However, I agree with you that a bug like this sounds very unlikely. Somewhere "out there" someone maintains a list of bugs which have been reported to FrameMaker. If it exists, this bug should be listed there. I'm afraid I don't know where you can find the list, though. -- Neal Dench Technical Author, Harlequin Ltd neald@harlequin.co.uk I write for Harlequin; I don't speak for them -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I am NOT a merry man!" -- Worf ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 17:35:26 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carla Lotito Subject: Re: Framemaker bugs I have taken this from the Framemaker FAQ. A list of FRamemaker bugs is posted in Usenet newsgroup comp.text.frame. http://sunasp1.cern.ch/frame/faq/faq.html (top-level info at http://sunasp1.cern.ch/frame/framemaker.html) courtesy of Tim Hanlon (thanlon@sunasp1.cern.ch) and CERN. This HTML version may not be as current as the other versions, but it is very easy to use. The Bug List and Filters document are here in HTML also! Hope this helps! Carla. >Somewhere "out there" someone maintains a list of bugs which have been >reported to FrameMaker. If it exists, this bug should be listed >there. I'm afraid I don't know where you can find the list, though. These are my opinions and my opinions only. Carla Lotito lotitoc@berclain.com Sainte-Foy, (Quebec) Canada ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:16:35 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jean Dartnall Subject: Re: getting past "indexer's block" In-Reply-To: <199509190627.AA17026@jculib.jcu.edu.au> On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Justine Carson wrote: > You mention that you already have indexing software, but if you > have not yet used it, you may find it easier to start with indexing cards > or a word processing package so that you don't get bogged down in trying > to learn the indexing process and the indexing software at the same time. > Anyone else have comments on the pros and cons of learning both at the > same time? > _______________________________________________________________________ I agree strongly with this comment and not only for indexing. When I work at the Information Desk in the Library here, I often encourage students to learn how to use journal indexes on the print version first before trying CD-ROM or online versions so that they are only learning one new process at a time. It also gives them a better 'feel' for the size and scope of the index I think than it is possible to get by sitting down to a screen. What do the indexers for this sort of database think? Jean Jean Dartnall Information Services Librarian James Cook University of North Queensland Townsville Queensland jean.dartnall@jcu.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:09:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Getting paid quicker Like others who have had to wait for payment, I added a note to my invoice that gets PROMPT payment: Amounts not paid X days after invoice date are subject to a $15.00 rebilling fee. Somehow, this SOUNDS like more than 2%, and it brought one client from paying within 3 months to paying within 2 weeks. Nan Badgett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:49:07 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference The Colorado Chapter of the American Society of Indexers (ASI) is pleased to announce the first annual Rocky Mountain Indexing Conference. The conference will be on Saturday, September 30, 1995, at the Boulder Public Library. The agenda is: 8:30 - 9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM - Noon BASIC INDEXING TECHNIQUES Speaker: Linda Fetters, Past President - ASI, and author of _A Guide to Indexing Software_ and _Handbook of Indexing Techniques: A Guide for Beginning Indexers_ Noon - 2:00 PM Lunch / Schmoozing 2:00 - 3:30 PM HANDLING THE FREELANCE LIFE Speaker: Vicki Agee, Agee Indexing Services, Albuquerque, NM, specialist in periodical, book, and archival indexing 3:30 - 4:00 PM Break / Schmoozing 4:00 - 5:30 PM INDEXERS IN CYBERSPACE (with Internet demo) Speakers: Lynn Moncrief, TECHindex & Docs, Tustin, CA and Janet Perlman, Southwest Indexing, Scottsdale, AZ REGISTRATION FOR ASI MEMBERS: ---------------------------- $35.00 At the door REGISTRATION FOR NON-ASI MEMBERS: -------------------------------- $50.00 At the door ********** QUESTIONS? ---------- Contact Lori Lathrop at 76620.456@compuserve.com or LMLathrop@aol.com or by calling 303-567-4011 or 303-567-9533. ************************************************************************* Lori Lathrop ----------> INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Home office: 303-567-4011 / Home phone: 303-567-9533 ************************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 04:18:08 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Colin Izat <100265.2771@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: JOURNAL INDEXING I have recently been requested to provide some indexes for a few commercial journals. Being a book indexer generally, I would appreciate any hints and tips on the differences between the two types of indexing. Regards, Katie Izat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:15:28 +0200 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Tuula M{kinen Organization: HELSINKI UNIVERSITY Subject: Unsubscribe Please unsuscribe me, as I haven't got time enough to all those messages. tumakinen@otdk.helsinki.fi ********************************************************************** Tuula M{kinen kirjastonhoitaja Oikeustieteellisen tiedekunnan kirjasto PL 4 (Fabianinkatu 24 B) 00014 HELSINGIN YLIOPISTO Puh. 191 2009 Fax 1912174 e-mail tuula.makinen@helsinki.fi ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 07:10:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: Money article Yesterday the Chicago Tribune republished *THE* Money Magazine article. I guess ASI and the USDA will have a new wave of inquiries. Sharon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:15:04 METDST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Alexander Kaiser Subject: unsubscribe unsubscribe index-l alexander kaiser -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Alexander KAISER University of Economics and Business Administration Department of Applied Computer Science phone: +43 1 31336-5230 Augasse 2-6 fax: +43 1 31336- 739 A-1090 Vienna, Austria email: alexander.kaiser@wu-wien.ac.at ------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:34:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Money magazine article redux On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Sharon Hughes wrote: > Yesterday the Chicago Tribune republished *THE* Money Magazine article. I > guess ASI and the USDA will have a new wave of inquiries. The USDA folks are bracing for the storm, so they tell me. And I've received registration forms for close to seventy students in the past couple of weeks. But I suspect that a number of would-be indexers will be disappointed when they receive the course materials. One such student (and as Dave Berry (sp?) says, I'm not making this up) asked for a refund. The course was not what Money led the person to believe. The Money article never once mentioned that one would be "making an index in the back of a book." Caveat emptor. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Shake and shake / The catsup bottle. / None will come, / And then a lot'll." --Richard Armour ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:31:10 EDT Reply-To: nharwood@grad.usda.gov Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Norma Harwood Subject: Re: Money article >Yesterday the Chicago Tribune republished *THE* Money Magazine article. I >guess ASI and the USDA will have a new wave of inquiries. > > Sharon > Yes, we most certainly have! Here we go again. Thank heaven for the discussions on this list, ASI web page, and Indexers on the Well pages. We have much extremely useful information to pass on to prospective students. After reading the FAQ a few have told us they decided indexing wasn't for them after all. Better they should find out now, yes? Norma Harwood, Director Correspondence Program Graduate School, USDA nharwood@grad.usda.gov http://grad.usda.gov/corres/corpro.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:01:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michele DeYoe Subject: Newbie indexing student I am one of the many who read the Money Magazine article and have signed up for the USDA course. I received my materials yesterday and was not at all disappointed. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised with what was sent. I have been able to have just a cursory look at everything, but the instructions are clear, the timeframe appropriate and the scope of lessons challenging, but reasonable. Certainly, people will drop out when they realize that this course will take some effort on their part. There are some of us who view the indexing profession in a different light: not an easy way to make money or to escape an unsatisfactory job situation. Time will tell, of course, how things will turn out, but I, for one, look forward to the challenge. Michele F. DeYoe, MLS Office of Research, Technology & Information Medical College of Wisconsin 8701 Watertown Plank Road PO Box 26509 Milwaukee, Wi 53226-0509 (414)456-4382 (414)266-8905 (FAX) mdeyoe@post.its.mcw.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:05:40 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: JOURNAL INDEXING In-Reply-To: <9509201404.AA12625@carson.u.washington.edu> The main thing to keep in mind is that with journals you are dealing with multi-authored works which do NOT use consistent vocabulary, and for which the terminology may change over time. It is therefore essential for the indexer to use a controlled vocabulary/subject heading list in indexing to avoid scattering of information, and to use LOTS of cross-references from the synonyms you choose not to use. If you're picking up the journals in mid-stream, then try to get hold of previous indexes for the journal and use terms similar to what the readers are already used to. The important thing is to be consistent within the index you're working on. If you're working from a standard controlled vocabulary (like Medical Subject Headings) it's perfectly okay to use other terms, or to use a less preferred term (like the "left" side of a cross reference) in your index, if that's the predominant terminology used in the articles you're indexing; but just be sure you ALWAYS use that term for the concept. As with book indexing, you need to go with the terminology used in the publication; but with a journal index, that usually means selecting the PREDOMINENT terminology and use cross references from the others. The other key factor is that journal indexing is USUALLY (but not always) less in-depth than book indexing, covering only the major points rather than paragraph-by-paragraph. A 10-page article may be covered by only 8-10 general subject headings. On the other hand, at least one of my clients (a medical publisher) wants book-type indexing for all articles. So as always, the client's requirements need to be fully understood before starting on the project. Since I index scholarly publications, virtually everything in what I work on is indexable; but in more general publications you will also need a clear understanding as to what's indexable: names? society news? national news? charts/graphs? Just make sure the parameters - and the fee structure - is clearly spelled out before you accept the job. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Colin Izat wrote: > I have recently been requested to provide some indexes for a few commercial > journals. > > Being a book indexer generally, I would appreciate any hints and tips on the > differences between the two types of indexing. > > Regards, > > Katie Izat > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:21:54 +0000 Reply-To: edserve@klyle.demon.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kathleen Lyle Subject: Re: Editing/copyediting listserv > Would anyone on this indexing listserv know the address for an editing or > copyediting listserv? There is copyediting-l at listproc.cornell.edu. A very active list to which I am not currently subscribed because it was taking up too much time! Kathleen Lyle ## editorial services 43 Brighton Terrace Road ## +114 268 5221 Sheffield S10 1NT ## edserve@klyle.demon.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 19:17:53 UT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Serge I. Obolensky" Subject: World Financial Information Conference II INFORMATION INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION Financial Information Services Division World Financial Information Conference II October 21-23, 1995 7 Royal York Hotel 7 Toronto, Canada The only worldwide meeting focused exclusively on the issues associated with the dissemination and processing of financial information Held in Conjunction with the Information Industry Association's 27th Annual Convention & Exhibition October 22-25, 1995 7 Royal York Hotel 7 Toronto, Canada World Financial Information Conference October 21-23, 1995 7 Royal York Hotel 7 Toronto, Canada The world's appetite for financial information shows no signs of abatement. The increasing globalization of the investment community has created the need to expand the discussion of financial information flows beyond national borders. New communications and workstation technologies, combined with an even wider availability of information, are raising the issues of data access, information entitlements, market data administration, protection of proprietary data, redistribution, market transparency and symbology to international prominence. The World Financial Information Conference is the forum for discussion and debate of these critical issues. The World Financial Information Conference provides a global business development forum for exchanges, financial information vendors, news and business database providers, infrastructure providers and market data users to address the issues related to the dissemination and processing of financial information. Its objective is to provide a global meeting ground where all organizations involved in market data services can meet, exchange ideas and improve the business climate associated with the worldwide flow of financial information. The conference program focuses on common issues raised by the proliferation of new technologies coupled with increased global investing at both the institutional and retail levels. Among the topics on the agenda are: analysis of the size of the market data industry worldwide as well as projections of growth areas for the future; global perspectives on the legal and business issues of copyright and market data ownership; new philosophies and approaches on the issues of entitlements and market data administration; focus on data access, dissemination, and administration issues in emerging markets from the exchange, vendor and user perspectives; the implications of the core regulatory and policy issues related to financial information on the development of the global financial information marketplace; insights into the economics of global information dissemination and the development of new forms of distribution partnerships; and discussions of information-related issues associated with back office processing and shortened clearance and settlement cycles. The World Financial Information Conference will give international exchanges and information providers the opportunity to interact with major market data vendors and users. Users and vendors will outline their expectations in working with market data from providers around the world. The Information Industry Association's (IIA) 1995 Annual Convention and Exhibition is the leading business forum for interaction and debate on the most important business strategy and technology issues facing the information industry. This years theme, "Romancing the Net - Profit Strategies for the Electronic Marketplace," focuses on the dramatic, fast-paced changes that are sweeping the information industry and the business implications for content providers and other information companies. The program features reviews of enabling technologies, global dissemination channels, the Internet, and emerging new commercial networks that are driving change in the information industry and illustrates how customer applications and industry business practices are changing as a result. Attendees of the World Financial Information Conference have the opportunity to attend the 1995 IIA Annual Conention and Exhibition at no additional cost. The same goes for attendees of the IIA Convention in regards to the World Financial Information Conference. Exhibition space is still available at the 1995 IIA Annual Convention & Exhibition as well placement in the special technology showcase session where new and emerging technologies are demonstrated for the conference attendees. Established in 1968, IIA is home base for businesses involved in the development and delivery of the innovative products and services that are expanding the information marketplace worldwide. Our membership of more than 500 companies encompasses the entire information industry spectrum, including publishers, database providers, newspapers, hardware and software manufacturers, telecommunications companies, financial institutions, paging systems, electronicmail providers, voice information and interactive television pioneers. Contact: Andrea Peterson Meeting Coordinator Information Industry Association 555 New Jersey Avenue Suite 800 Washington, DC 20001 Phone: (202) 639-8262 Fax: (202) 638-4403 Email: sobolen@msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:41:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Maryann Corbett Subject: public/private cooperation, controlled term for? In last session's laws, we've had a rash of new forms of cooperation between government and private business. I have to figure out how to index them for the statutes index. I think we need some term for this general concept, but I am unsure where the general public would look. Legal and legislative indexers, out there: Any suggestions? General public types: how would YOU look this up? Catalogers, have you seen this? Thanks for your help. Maryann Corbett maryann.corbett@revisor.leg.state.mn.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:39:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: New-Re: Money article In-Reply-To: <199509202128.QAA18549@zoom.bga.com> Elinor and INDEX-Lers, Perhaps this is an opportunity to cull the archives for our earlier posts and fashion an official ASI response to send to the Chicago Tribune and any others republishing the article. In fact, the Tribune or other papers might think that ASI is a newsworthy organization. And that may provide contacts for later efforts to explain just what is is we do, anyway. What do ya'll think? Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Sharon Hughes wrote: > Yesterday the Chicago Tribune republished *THE* Money Magazine article. I > guess ASI and the USDA will have a new wave of inquiries. > > Sharon > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:37:21 CDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Comeau Subject: variant forms of names Hi, folks. An interesting problem (?): I'm editing an index to an ethnohistorical work. For clearly delineated reasons, the author chose to use, in her text, spellings for people and places as they appeared in the original documents she used as her sources. Obviously, this complicates matters in the index somewhat. For example, we might have an entry Movila, 226 for a city name. The author has determined that this is in all likelihood the same place as "Mabila," so she wants a cross-reference. She initially had "see" cross-references. I had some problem accepting that, since she does give a page number for the "Movila" variant. In a few places, though, "see also" seems unfair to the reader, because the "standard" variant appears only on the same page(s) as the variant indexed. (Following the above example, it would be as if "Mabila" also occurred only on p. 226.) Can anybody suggest an elegant solution to this problem? "See," "see also," "also," other? Put the "standard" in parentheses after the variant? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks! Jennifer L. Comeau Project Editor University of Nebraska Press jcomeau@unlinfo.unl.edu (402) 472-7703 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 19:12:43 +8 Reply-To: grant@onyxgfx.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Grant Hogarth Organization: Onyx Graphics Corp. Subject: Re: Page Ranges in FrameMaker Lori Lathrop asked about an indexing bug in FM associated with "see" and "see also" refs. I think your source is confused (or malicious). I've been using FM since 2.0 days, and for a while worked directly for Frame. I've used it (writing and indexing) on virtually every platform FM runs on, and have never seen (or heard of) this "bug". ('course, I'm getting older, and sometimes I forget things.... ) Regards, Grant =================================== Grant Hogarth, Information Services Manager Onyx Graphics Corp. Midvale, UT #include "Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:08:30 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Dwight Walker Subject: AusSI Melbourne Course 25-27/9/95 CANCELLED Australian Society of Indexers Indexing Course Cancelled Sep 95 Due to lack of bookings we have had to cancel the Victorian Branch indexing course planned for next week (25-27 Sept). A course will be held early next year, but no details of it as yet. Cheers Dwight ---------------------------------------------------------- Dwight Walker, Sydney, Australia +61-2-3986726 (h) +61-2-4393750 (w) W-F My Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~dwalker AusSI Home Page: http://www.zeta.org.au/~aussi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:11:43 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Healy Subject: Re: public/private cooperation, controlled term for? In-Reply-To: <199509210819.EAA03631@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> Maryann, Florida's legislature has had a rash of new private/public cooperation in the form of privatization. We index these new ventures under the main heading PRIVATIZATION OF GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS for both our statutes index and our laws index (the statutes index being a cumulative index of the codified laws for those unfamiliar with the difference.) We also use a main heading GOVERNMENTAL REOGANIZATION which notes name changes, transfer of administration, and abolishments. Other related headings used in the Florida legislative indexes include: BOARDS AND COMMISSION ADVISORY BODIES COOPERATIVE AGREEMENTS RECIPROCAL AGREEMENTS Another growing concept which might be closer to what you are seeing is the direct-support organization or citizen support organization--nonprofit corporations formed to administer specific programs prevsiously handled by public employed. These organizations are indexed individually under a subheading "Direct-support organizations" under main heading NONPROFIT CORPORATIONS AND NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS as well as individual subheadings under the subject areas they refer to. Susan Healy Div. of Statutory Revision Florida Legislature ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:55:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Neva's note on Money article For Neva, GREAT IDEA !!!!! I think a lot of folks still don't know what indexers do. Any effort to educate people about indexing would be terrific. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@symnet.net) "Shake and shake / The catsup bottle. / None will come, / And then a lot'll." --Richard Armour ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:34:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Neva J. Smith" Subject: Re: Newbie indexing student In-Reply-To: <199509210101.UAA10587@zoom.bga.com> Welcome Michele- What a refreshing point of view you have! On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Michele DeYoe wrote: > I am one of the many who read the Money Magazine article and have signed up > for the USDA course. I received my materials yesterday and was not at all > disappointed. [snip] Time will tell, of course, how things will > turn out, but I, for one, look forward to the challenge. > > Michele F. DeYoe, MLS Office of Research, Technology & Information > Medical College of Wisconsin 8701 Watertown Plank Road PO Box 26509 > Milwaukee, Wi 53226-0509 > (414)456-4382 (414)266-8905 (FAX) mdeyoe@post.its.mcw.edu We on INDEX-L (or at least I) enjoy discussions on particular indexing points, and questions of style, and applications of subheads (especially the use of "and"). We also like to send horrified messages about misleading information about indexers and indexing! Welcome, and have fun with your coursework- Neva > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = > = - * - = < = Neva J. Smith, MLIS DataSmiths Information Services PO Box 2157 / Round Rock, TX 78680 email: njsmith@bga.com voice: (512) 244-2767 Editor, _Library Currents_ PO Box 2199 / Round Rock, TX 78680 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: re variant forms of names ------------ "I'm editing an index to an ethnohistorical work. For clearly delineated reasons, the author chose to use, in her text, spellings for people and places as they appeared in the original documents she used as her sources. Obviously, this complicates matters in the index somewhat. For example, we might have an entry Movila, 226 for a city name. The author has determined that this is in all likelihood the same place as "Mabila," so she wants a cross-reference. She initially had "see" cross-references. I had some problem accepting that, since she does give a page number for the "Movila" variant. In a few places, though, "see also" seems unfair to the reader, because the "standard" variant appears only on the same page(s) as the variant indexed. (Following the above example, it would be as if "Mabila" also occurred only on p. 226.) Can anybody suggest an elegant solution to this problem? "See," "see also," "also," other? Put the "standard" in parentheses after the variant" --------------- One way of handling the problem of handling "see also" references that refer to the same page might be to place an asterisk by those citations and explain in a footnote at the beginning of the index that "see also" citations with an asterisk occur on the same page as the primary reference. L. H. Feldman Lawrenc846@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:53:54 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: variant forms of names In a message dated 95-09-21 00:23:33 EDT, you write: >The author has determined that this is in all likelihood >the same place as "Mabila," so she wants a cross-reference. She initially >had "see" cross-references. I had some problem accepting that, since she >does give a page number for the "Movila" variant. In a few places, though, >"see also" seems unfair to the reader, because the "standard" variant >appears only on the same page(s) as the variant indexed. (Following the >above example, it would be as if "Mabila" also occurred only on p. 226.) > >Can anybody suggest an elegant solution to this problem? "See," "see also," >"also," other? Put the "standard" in parentheses after the variant? I would use the parentheses. The author's solution is a little too precise for the reader who doesn't know which is which, and makes them do extra work to figure it out. They'll get to read about the names on the page; let her explain the difference there. Mabila (Movila), 226 Movila (Mabila), 226 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:53:57 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Jan C. Wright" Subject: Re: New-Re: Money article In a message dated 95-09-20 20:23:10 EDT, you write: >an official ASI response to send to the Chicago Tribune and >any others republishing the article. In fact, the Tribune or other papers >might think that ASI is a newsworthy organization. And that may provide >contacts for later efforts to explain just what is is we do, anyway. I think an official ASI response to the article would be a great thing to do, as long as we keep it toned down. Perhaps focused on why we charge what we do, the skills and knowledge needed for indexing, how much work and crafting is involved, the technical expertise we possess, that kind of thing. In some ways, I'm not as concerned about new people who think you can make $50,000 a year as I am about the people who already think we charge too much. Anyone coming in who thinks we make that much, and then gets asked to work at the low rates some publishers offer will quickly see it's not true and get out. If we could use write a response that would open the door to us making $50,000 a year someday, one that helps people understand why we need to make a living wage, THAT would be grand. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:37:12 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Kevin Subject: External data storage I've been getting dangerously close to filling up my 250 Meg hard drive. The lion's share of the problem is my "oldindex" directory, which is around 90 Megs. Recently I've heard about a storage device called the Zip drive that costs $ 200 for the external drive, and $ 20 for each 100 Meg cartridge. A computer stud friend who works in enormous files (he retouches photos on disk for a living) tells me that I should attempt to determine if there is a standard for indexers with respect to getting huge files from publishers. He says in his line of work, the graphics industry, including prepress and advertizing houses, there are Coast-Coast differences: some use SyQuest and some use Bernoulli drives. I started wondering about people like Lynn Moncreif who (I gather) get books on disk for indexing. Do the publishers send it on 1.44M disks or on some type of data cartridge? If I end up getting a Zip drive, I don't want to find out *after* the fact that publishers all use some other format for large file transferal. Thanks Kevin Mulrooney ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dyslexics of the world untie! First State Indexing (302) 738-2558 276 East Main Street Indexer@inetcom.net Newark, Delaware 19711 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:35:34 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Text of Handout Janet, In response to your query about indexers' marketing materials: I used to send a letter with a brochure, but I've found that most new clients request a resume. So now I usually send a letter and resume. My resume includes a partial list of books indexed in the current year. I, too, am interested in what others do. Nan Badgett Word-a-bil-i-ty Tucson, AZ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:52:50 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: indexing a journal not yet written There has been much talk recently about indexing journals. But what happens if none of the issues is written yet? O'Reilly & Associates is in the planning stages of creating a new journal. At this time, very little information has been provided to me -- because there isn't a lot of information out there. Relevant to me as the indexer, however, is that the journal will be published quarterly in book format, and each issue will run approximately 300 pages (as far as we can tell). Including an index with the journal is being considered, partly for the sake of completeness and partly as a selling point. However, there are several questions involved, particularly because we want the index to incorporated into the design. 1) How often should one index a journal as it goes along? Once every x number of years? Annually? Once every x issues? What should we base our decision on? 2) If an index is written every year, for example, what happens to the Year-One index once it's time to write the Year-Two index? Do they get combined? Is the Year-One index "thrown out"? 3) Finally, where do old indexes go? Suppose the index is stored as a separate issue or volume and updated regularly -- which is expensive. Does O'Reilly & Associates give it away for free to its subscribers, or are subscribers expected to buy it (or, more accurately, does O'Reilly have to market the index as a separate book)? Or should the index be placed in the back of the "most recent" appropriate issue, to be kept for time immemorial, even once it becomes out of date with the distributiopn of the next issue? - Seth ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Backus Subject: Reasons for Pursuing Indexing I would like to give support to Michele Deyoe's message from yeaterday. Michele is a friend of mine who pointed out the Money Magaxine article to me in hopes helping me find as alternative career where I can use my professional skills. My position as a medical librarian will end December 31st. It has been very encouraging to be on this list and become aware of indexing as a profession and the sharing of information among the professionals. My first exposure to indexing as a freelancer was last April. I was concerned with how to start and who to contact. This list has given me a lot of encouragement. I have sent for the information on the USDA course, which I plan to take this fall. From looking at the materials so far, I am very pleased with the content. I have never done correspondence courses before and did not know what to expect. The information on start up cost, hardware and software has been most helpful. I look foward to taking the course and finding out if professional indexing is something I can add to enhance my other professional skills Thanks, Linda Backus Medical College of Wisconsin Libraries 8701 Watertown Plank Road Milwaukee WI 53226 (414) 257-5898 lbackus@post.its.mcw.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:28:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ed Nelson Subject: Re: New-Re: Money article In-Reply-To: On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Neva J. Smith wrote: > Elinor and INDEX-Lers, > Perhaps this is an opportunity to cull the archives for our earlier posts > and fashion an official ASI response to send to the Chicago Tribune and > any others republishing the article. In fact, the Tribune or other papers > might think that ASI is a newsworthy organization. And that may provide > contacts for later efforts to explain just what is is we do, anyway. > What do ya'll think? > Neva > >From my (limited!) understanding, Neva's idea seems like an excellent one! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:45:07 +1000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jonathan Jermey Subject: Automated indexing - GREPping keywords from a predefined file (Long). I wrote earlier about our ongoing job of assigning approved keywords ('descriptors') to scientific journal articles. We began by looking up what we thought might be appropriate terms in a large paperback thesaurus and then, once found, handwriting them on to a sheet which listed the article titles and other details. Our next step was to obtain a computerised list of all the descriptors that had been used in the past and to turn that - as I described earlier - into a Word dictionary file using Macrex. This meant that we could type descriptors into a Word document and spell-check them to ensure they were in the thesaurus (the match between previously-used terms and terms actually in the thesaurus was pretty good - about 99%). I also wrote a lot of AutoCorrect shortcuts to automatically expand abbreviations - e.g. 'AtOcI' was automatically expanded into 'Atmosphere ocean interactions' My next thought was whether the whole process could be automated by getting the computer to do the looking up. I experimented with the Access database program but found it was too inflexible for someone with my limited programming skills. Instead I used Visual Basic, which I am fairly familiar with, to write a program that: a) Loads the document number and the first few words of the title from an on-line list and displays these at the top of the screen. b) Allows the user to type in keywords to search for (usually several at once). c) Searches the file of previously-used descriptors for these keywords. d) Takes the output from this search and displays it in an alphabetical list. e) Allows the user to click or double-click on items in that list to assign them to a 'descriptor' field. f) Adds the final choice of descriptors to a text file on disk. g) Goes on to the next document. Thus if I decide that a document is about, say, flocculation and gold, I can type in 'flocc|gold', and get an alphabetical list of all the entries in the previously-used descriptor list that include either or both of those terms. I then browse through these to find the ones that best match the content of the document, and assign them to that document with a click or two of the mouse. As originally written the program was entirely in Visual Basic, and as a result the search step c) was very slow. I decided to go outside Visual Basic just for this step. A better programmer could probably have written their own search routine, but I took advantage of a pre-existing DOS utility called 'GREP' [derived from a UNIX version called, I think, 'Get Regular Expression Parser'(?)] which runs from the command-line and very quickly retrieves matching lines from a text file. Working a reference to GREP into the Visual Basic program wasn't quite so easy because Visual Basic doesn't like quote marks in command-line parameters. What I had to do was to write a batch file, which VB can run, and use the batch file to call the GREP program. The screen flashes to DOS when I do this, which is a nuisance, but when the DOS screen disappears I know the matching records have been found (the process takes between one and five seconds to go through 12,000 records) and I can go ahead and ask the VB program to list them. Since the program was written I've made a few improvements - it now allows the user to enter and save comments, it can print the final listing of documents indexed, and it will resize to run on a VGA or Super VGA screen. More recently I've run it under Windows 95 with no problems, except that the DOS window doesn't appear but merely runs in the background. The time spent on the program will be recouped in time saved over the length of the job. A bonus is that the risk of typos is reduced to a minimum. I've described this at length, partly in case anyone on the list is in the same situation and could benefit from the program, but mainly to encourage indexers to look for ways to automate their work. I know there are a lot of enthusiastic Macrex and Cindex supporters here, and it only takes a little programming knowledge to be able to supplement those programs with a variety of special-purpose applications like the one described. Another area where I've found this useful is in name indexing. Comments and descriptions of similar systems welcome. Jonathan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jonathan Jermey & Glenda Browne Blaxland NSW Australia 061-47-398-199 jonathan@magna.com.au "From the motherboard on the sister ship to the brotherhood in the fatherland." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:16:13 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Elinor Lindheimer Subject: variant forms of names Jennifer Comeau wrote: > >I'm editing an index to an ethnohistorical work. For clearly delineated >reasons, the author chose to use, in her text, spellings for people and >places as they appeared in the original documents she used as her sources. >Obviously, this complicates matters in the index somewhat. For example, we >might have an entry > > Movila, 226 > >for a city name. The author has determined that this is in all likelihood >the same place as "Mabila," so she wants a cross-reference. She initially >had "see" cross-references. I had some problem accepting that, since she >does give a page number for the "Movila" variant. In a few places, though, >"see also" seems unfair to the reader, because the "standard" variant >appears only on the same page(s) as the variant indexed. (Following the >above example, it would be as if "Mabila" also occurred only on p. 226.) > >Can anybody suggest an elegant solution to this problem? "See," "see also," >"also," other? Put the "standard" in parentheses after the variant? > How about: Mabila (Movila), 226 Movila (Mabila), 226 unless they were fairly close together (if the index is relatively short), in which case I would go with the term the author prefers, and cross-ref from the other: Mabila. ^See^ Movila Movila, 226 But that's because they are both in the letter M. Elinor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:14:10 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Fred Leise Subject: Re: variant forms of names Jennifer: If Movila and Mabila appear on the same page, there is no reason to use a see also reference, since you are not providing the reader with any further information. However, if what you are trying to do is let the reader know that the two names are linked, I would suggest "Movila (Mabila)" and "Mabila (Movila)" as the two entries. Or, if Movila is a subsidiary spelling with Mabila the primary, index under "Mabila (Movila)" and offer a see reference from Movila. (Unless, of course, there are only a few references, in which case you can provide them in both places, since you are not taking up any more space than the see reference and are providing easier access for the reader. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:52:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: JOURNAL INDEXING Carolyn Weaver recommended that the same term be used for the same concept found in the articles with cross-references from synonyms. However, I have found one major problem with this approach. Many times I cannot tell if the concept is REALLY the same or whether the author has by slightly changing the vocabulary slightly but significantly changed the focus, the nature, the feature of the concept. Think of ASIS type journals and the use of the word information, its synonyms, and the concepts the vocabulary SUGGESTS. In developing their Unified Medical Language System, I imagine NLM discovered that what appeared on a superficial level to be a synonym was in fact a subtly different concept. Another problem I found with deciding on a controlled vocabulary approach was that terms I felt were synonyms -- ie different words for the same concept -- deserved to be entered as terms in their own right with cross- references to other synonyms because the terminology was quite unique or catchy. "Catchy" terms are likely to be remembered by the reader more than their more prosaic synonyms and I figure the reader just wants to know where he read that particular word not be referred to its synonym. Hannah King kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:39:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: getting started in indexing >is there a point to my taking the usda correspondence >course? >i find that when i pick up a book just to try to index *for practice* i get >very bogged down in detail and confused about what terms to include and what to >omit. Indexing, like any other skill, requires training. Your confusion strongly suggests you need an indexing course of some sort (whether the USDA or some other). Good luck. Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | Life is good. Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | Milwaukee, WI | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:12:03 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ron Rhodes Subject: Re: unsubscribe Unsuscribe Index-1 Ron Rhodes ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:20:32 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Evans Subject: Re: External data storage I'm just going through this. I had about 80 meg of clipart on my hard disk. I hardly ever use it, but I want it easily accessible. I bought an Iomega Zip drive with a couple of 100 meg diskettes. The drive is hard to come by and the diskettes are *very* hard to come by. Only one store in Raleigh had any drives and I had to search every other store in town, as well as the Computer Shopper. I found only three diskettes and they were preformatted for a Mac, but they can be reformatted. The drive comes with a 100 meg disk, but that has 50 meg of installation software on it, so it's not much use. The drive was $219, but they can be had (if you can find one) for $199. Diskettes are $20 but are often sold in ten-packs at a discount. Installation was simple, it just plugs into your parallel port (unless you get the SCSI version) and shares it with your printer. I ran into problems copying data from hard disk to Zip drive. It took about eight hours to move 80 meg. That is obscenely long. I'm still trying to figure out what's wrong. The good news is that once the data is out there, access time seems normal. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:28:14 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carolyn Weaver Subject: Re: indexing a journal not yet written In-Reply-To: <9509220024.AA24164@carson.u.washington.edu> I'm a medical librarian as well as a journal indexer. My comments are interspersed below. On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Seth A. Maislin wrote: > 1) How often should one index a journal as it goes along? Once every x > number of years? Annually? Once every x issues? What should we base > our decision on? [Wearing librarian hat] It All Depends. If the journal is a throwaway (like airline magazines) that nobody will want to keep or refer to, except maybe an occasional article that gets torn out and filed, then you may not need an index at all. If you're talking about any type of journal that people may want to refer to again or retrieve articles, then you need an ANNUAL or volume index. How else can anyone fine material in it other than scanning the table of contents for each issue? Once it's picked up by one or more secondary indexing services (e.g., Reader's Guide or one of the abstracting services) then you may be able to dispense with the journal index; depends on what your subscribers need. If you want to sell to libraries, INDEX IT! > > 2) If an index is written every year, for example, what happens to the > Year-One index once it's time to write the Year-Two index? Do they get > combined? Is the Year-One index "thrown out"? Each annual index is a discrete work; but the subject headings used in Year 1 should be carried forward into Year 2, forming the subject heading list for the publication. If you control the vocabulary and plan well (including saving the files in a format that can be merged easily, you can eventually publish cumulated indexes at regular intervals (say every 5 years). > 3) Finally, where do old indexes go? Suppose the index is stored as a > separate issue or volume and updated regularly -- which is expensive. Does > O'Reilly & Associates give it away for free to its subscribers, or are > subscribers expected to buy it (or, more accurately, does O'Reilly have to > market the index as a separate book)? Or should the index be placed in the > back of the "most recent" appropriate issue, to be kept for time immemorial, > even once it becomes out of date with the distributiopn of the next issue? Annual indexes are usually published either in the last issue of the volume (meaning a LOT of last-minute time pressure on the indexer to get the index finished without holding up publication) or in the first issue of the next volume. You can sell the index separately (several of the computer magazines do that) but annual indexes are usually distributed as part of the publication. Cumulations usually are sold separately and may not have a high market demand IF the publication is covered by the secondary services. Again, it depends who you're marketing to. If it's a mass-market journal, the indexing needs are different from those of a library. If you're selling to libraries (especially academics) it either needs an index or coverage in a major indexing service; otherwise, we're not going to spend scarce collection dollars on it. Suggestion: visit a local academic or public library with a large serials collection and browse thru their journal stacks to see how the journal indexes for publications similar to yours are handled. [Donning indexer hat] If you can index issues as they are published, journal indexing is a lot easier on the indexer than back of the book indexing, since you index individual issues interspersed with other things; the only time pressure comes with the last issue or two (depending on frequency) when you will probably be indexing from page proofs on a VERY short deadline which has to include the final edit for the annual index. (For a freelancer, of course, that usually means waiting until the final issue to collect your fee!) If the publisher sends all issues at the same time, treat it as a complex multi-authored work and plan your time accordingly. Indexing six issues of 150 pages each in two weeks just doesn't cut it - though some publishers have trouble realizing why it's such a headache. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, Wa. e-mail: cweaver@u.washington.edu voice: 206/930-4348 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:37:59 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hannah King Subject: Re: re variant forms of names It may be that you need to explain the purpose of an index -- it's a finding tool to inforamtion in the book, not a way for a scholar to make a point. Another way is to make a double entry using both terms eg term 1 (term 2); term 2 (term 1) this way the scholar could make an intellectual connection and the index wouldn't send the reader to another place in the index to find the same information. Just an idea Hannah King Kingh@vax.cs.hscsyr.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 20:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Sonsie C. Conroy" Subject: Re: indexing a journal not yet written In-Reply-To: <199509220023.RAA11762@callamer.com> On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Seth A. Maislin wrote: > 1) How often should one index a journal as it goes along? Once every x > number of years? Annually? Once every x issues? What should we base > our decision on? Usually journals are indexed annually; sometimes on a different schedule, depending on how often the issues appearl. > 2) If an index is written every year, for example, what happens to the > Year-One index once it's time to write the Year-Two index? Do they get > combined? Is the Year-One index "thrown out"? Many journals I see include the yearly index with the last issue of the year, or the first of the new year. About every five years, a cumulative index is created out of the previous ones (all entries included, with some sort of reference to what issue a specific reference is to). This is either published separately or incorporated (again) in the appropriate journal issue. The old indexes don't really become obsolete; they're handy for anyone who only has a year or two worth of the journal. > 3) Finally, where do old indexes go? Suppose the index is stored as a > separate issue or volume and updated regularly -- which is expensive. Does > O'Reilly & Associates give it away for free to its subscribers, or are > subscribers expected to buy it (or, more accurately, does O'Reilly have to > market the index as a separate book)? Or should the index be placed in the > back of the "most recent" appropriate issue, to be kept for time immemorial, > even once it becomes out of date with the distributiopn of the next issue? The old indexes really don't become obsolete...they still accurately describe what is in that year's issues (or that five-year batch of issues). Most times indexes ARE included with the cost of the subscription and they are usually not bound as a separate booklet...but they may be, if that works better. Hope this helps! =Sonsie=