From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JAN-1997 10:06:36.10 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9612A" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:43:50 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9612A" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 21:16:44 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: Objects and Methods At 04:54 PM 11/29/96 -0500, Dick Evans wrote: >A question for the programmer types in the group . . . > >I have a reference chapter that lists and describes objects and methods. >Objects are in one section, methods in another. > >Consider the Math object. The method section describes a number of methods >to be used with the object. Is it useful to have "See also" references from >the entry for the Math object to the associated methods? > >The index would look like this: > >Math object, 422 > See also acos method > See also asin method > See also atan method > See also cos method > See also sin method > See also tan method > >I know I can save some space by compressing the list to a string, I'm just >asking if it is a useful thing to do. > and then on Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:58:34 -0500 Dick added: >...Each object description lists the related methods and each method lists its >related objects, so I guess there is no need to include the same cross refs in the >index... Dick: The first thought that came to my mind was that some subheading like "methods associated with" under all objects with associated methods might work well, if there aren't too many associated methods to be listed, and especially if all the methods pertaining to individual objects are covered together in object-related subsections within the methods section. The same construction might work well for the associated properties too. If this idea doesn't work well in either case, Dave's suggestion of general cross references sounds good, though in this situation it would be possible to point more directly at the methods or properties actually associated with the objects in question with "_See also_ _associated methods_" and/or "_See also_ _associated properties_". Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 11:52:20 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: Connection Info - Thanks Thanks to those of you who helped me figure out why my messages were not going through to the list. Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:12:07 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "EL-FATA,CORINE,MS" In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of Sun, 01 Dec 1996 00:16:44 EST unsbscribe: index-l@bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:25:23 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Subject: electronic transfers--new info This might be Mac specific, but I don't think so. I came across this: GlobalTransfer from Global Village, $29, which allows direct file transfers (no mail server intermediary, I guess) and makes "sending and receiving files a snap." It comes with a free demo to send to all others who you swap files with, and they can use if for 30 days, after which it will only receive. But for only $29, why not buy it. Global Village is at www.globalvillage.com or 408-523-1000 Does anyone know of this? I'll probably give it a try, and report on it if I do. RR Rachel Rice Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Chilmark, Mass. rachelr@tiac.net; http://www.tiac.net/users/rachelr/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:28:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Re: Objects and Methods In-Reply-To: <199612010516.AAA26442@ruby.ora.com> > At 04:54 PM 11/29/96 -0500, Dick Evans wrote: > >I have a reference chapter that lists and describes objects and methods. >Objects are in one section, methods in another. > >Consider the Math object. The method section describes a number of methods >to be used with the object. Is it useful to have "See also" references from >the entry for the Math object to the associated methods? I think cross references will clutter the book up, unless the Math object is only one of, say, three objects. I've indexed enough books on Java recently to know this for a fact. I get around it either of two ways. First, I simply do not cross reference anything at all. This can be justified becuase these books I've indexed will list the methods under each object, as does the book you are working on. If I make sure that a locator points to that list instead -- it could be argued that this is a trivial reference and doesn't deserve a page number in the final index, but usually these sections are DTD-like reference pages anyway -- then the reader will notice that the method is part of the object and can make the connection him-/herself. I can also justify it by noting that a reader looking up a method is most likely looking up information about *that method*, since rarely is information concerning the object itself relevant to how a method is used (except at a very basic level, perhaps). Sometimes I can "cheat," however, becuase a particular method may be overloaded objects. In that case, each object gets a subentry: method() in Object 1 in Object 2 That, if I can get away with it, easily replaces see-also cross references. The other method is to list each method in two ways: simply as "method()" and also as "Object.method()". Unfortunately, this will start cluttering up the index as well, so I only use this if absolutely necessary (whatever that means!). It's easier to list the important methods under the objects as subentires -- allowing me to pick and choose which methods are important. A third possibility, depending upon speace constraints, is to modify this second option by including the object name *after* the method name: acos() (Math object) It takes up less space, goes very well with the overloaded object listing detailed above, and is just as straightforward. The only trouble is how long your lines gets, since some of those method names and object names get very, very long. If you feel like breaking a minor consistency rule, though, you can include the object name for only those methods whose object names may not seem intuitively obvious. I mean, to a programmer, "tan() (Math Object)" seems close to redundant, as might "isReal() (Float object)". On the other hand, what object might contain "checkIO()"? - Seth P.S. Some of my method names and object names may be programming-inaccurate, but this doesn't change the convictions of my opinions! :-) Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:33:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: Objects and Methods >Consider the Math object. The method section describes a number of methods >to be used with the object. Is it useful to have "See also" references from >the entry for the Math object to the associated methods? >The index would look like this: >Math object, 422 > See also acos method > See also asin method > See also atan method > See also cos method > See also sin method > See also tan method I always post methods under the objects they belong to... Math object, 422 events, 425 methods acos( ), 530 asin( ), 533 tan( ), 540 Erika Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:57:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: New business name I need an opinion on the suitability of a potential business name. During discussion a while back on business licenses and "dba" status, someone named Wright had made her business name a great play on words. I got to thinking and came up with TrueWord Indexing Service for myself. But I have begun to wonder is this would have a religious connotation to some people, as in, the Bible is the true word of God?? I do not want to be perceived as a religious zealot or to appear sacreligious. What do you Index-L'ers think? (I'm sure I'll get the opinions of a diverse group here!) ;-D -- Ann Truesdale "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." Eleanor Roosevelt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 16:11:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Erika Millen Subject: Re: fun in indexes! >In an index to a software manual done at the company I worked for back in >the early 70's, the indexer put in these cross references (sorted properly >of course): > >Circle > see Circuit >Circuit > see Loop >Loop > see Orbit >Orbit > see Ring >Ring > see Circle he he. But doesn't an index entry like this compromise the quality of the book? My publisher (and their editors and authors) spends *months* planning, editing, and advertising the books we publish, so I feel like I owe them the best index I can write. I'd feel guilty if a reader bought a $59.99 book, flipped to the index, and found a handful of bogus entries... Erika ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:56:46 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: New business name At 03:57 PM 12/1/96 -0800, Ann Truesdale wrote: >I got to thinking and came up with TrueWord Indexing Service for myself. >But I have begun to wonder is this would have a religious connotation to >some people, as in, the Bible is the true word of God?? I do not want to >be perceived as a religious zealot or to appear sacreligious. What do you >Index-L'ers think? (I'm sure I'll get the opinions of a diverse group >here!) ;-D Ann, if the thought even crosses your mind for a second, rest assured that it will occur to a significant portion of your possible clients. Therefore, I'd regretfully suggest you think of another name. A copywriter in my area (who has since gone out of business) used "War of Words" as her business name. It has a real negative feeling about it, and I bet that bad feeling was at least partly responsible for her business failure. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:06:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: fun in indexes! >>In an index to a software manual done at the company I worked for back in >>the early 70's, the indexer put in these cross references (sorted properly >>of course): >> >>Circle >> see Circuit >>Circuit >> see Loop >>Loop >> see Orbit >>Orbit >> see Ring >>Ring >> see Circle > > >he he. But doesn't an index entry like this compromise the quality of the >book? My publisher (and their editors and authors) spends *months* planning, >editing, and advertising the books we publish, so I feel like I owe them the >best index I can write. I'd feel guilty if a reader bought a $59.99 book, >flipped to the index, and found a handful of bogus entries... > >Erika > > If the index is complete and otherwise good, the reader isn't losing anything by a little something on the side. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 18:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: Janet M Bauer Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Janet M Bauer Subject: Thesauri I am a student in an indexing and surrogation class and for an assignment we have to evaluate thesauri, ERIC and ASIS. I have been lurking on this list for a number of months but have not seen any discussion on use of thesauri. Are thesauri used much while indexing or is natural language considered the best - what about when indexing the internet? Any information would be of great assistance. Thanks in advance. **************************************************************************** Janet M. Bauer SILS - graduate student University of Buffalo "Books are the carriers of civilization. Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a stand still. Without books, the development of civilization would have been impossible." Barbara W. Tuchman 1979 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 18:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: New business name In-Reply-To: <199612012101.QAA23197@polaris.net> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996, Ann Truesdale wrote: > I got to thinking and came up with TrueWord Indexing Service for myself. I'm not a religious person by *any* stretch of the imagination. "TrueWord" sounds suspiciously religion-oriented to me. I think I'd try out a different business name. But I'll be eager to see what other folks have to say. Just my $.02. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message and get back to you."--Missy Dizick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:39:28 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: Indexing Using Thesauri Janet Bauer wrote: << I am a student in an indexing and surrogation class and for an assignment we have to evaluate thesauri, ERIC and ASIS. I have been lurking on this list for a number of months but have not seen any discussion on use of thesauri. Are thesauri used much while indexing or is natural language considered the best - what about when indexing the internet? Any information would be of great assistance.>> Janet, Many of the conversations here that I've read of late have to do with back-of-the-book indexes. This is often done by freelance indexers. A thesaurus -- which is a list of controlled (i.e., preselected) index terms is usually used in database indexing. The ERIC database uses a set of controlled terms, as does the PsyINFO database. It's a matter of context. I used to work for PsycINFO as an indexer, so let me use that database as an example. The PsycINFO database is based on articles from a wide range of journal types: medical, educational, business, and, of course, psychological and psychiatric. If natural language indexing terms were used for each and every record that goes into the database, retrieval would be difficult and haphazard for the user. For instance, if one article about bipolar depression is indexed with the term "depression" and the next article about the same subject is indexed more specifically with "bipolar depression," a user who just types in "depression" would not retrieve the second article. So, a controlled vocabulary allows for more consistent retrieval. The PsycINFO record, in addition to having fields for these controlled terms, also has a field called the "Key Phrase". (I think ERIC calls it the ID.) This is a natural language field in which the indexer writes a brief phrase which describes the contents of the abstract/article. It is included for two reasons: 1) the author may use very specific language that just isn't reflected by the PsycINFO thesaurus. It's a way of making sure his/her ideas are included. 2) new language or terms not yet included in the thesaurus can be included here. For instance, when the term "codependency" first hit the psychological literature, it was an unclear concept. It was also something of a popular jargon term. One of the criteria for a term being included in the Thesaurus is that it be consistently used and not just a fad term. For two years we made sure to include the word "codependency" in the keyphrase, so that someone searching the database for this concept would be sure to retrieve the articles that talked about it. Once it became apparent that the term had "taken hold" as it were, it was included in the new edition of the thesaurus. Thesaurus maintenance is a part of the database indexers duties. Concepts are carefully reviewed before being included. In the case of PsycINFO, there are specific steps one goes through to get a term accepted. As far as indexing the Internet -- oooo, what a voltaile topic. At the moment, the current indexing engines (also called search engines) use a very general keyword search approach. If using a thesaurus for indexing is the most constrained form of indexing, then the style of indexing done on the Internet is the most unconstrained. And it's a real problem for both users and information workers like librarians. A friend of mine told me once that if just two librarians had been in the room when the Internet was invented, then it wouldn't be in the mess it is now!! Very true. I'd be most interested in other people's views on this!! Janet, I hope this is of some help to you. Email me directly if I can be of further assistance. I am teaching Indexing in the Spring term and the questions you've raised are precisely what we will be talking about. It's helped me understand things better myself to think about your query. Thanks! Judith Jablonski *************************************** Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 00:15:48 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: electronic transfers--new info Thanks, Rachel. And now I have a question along similar lines. Have any of you used Stuffit 4.0? If so, please let me know whether you were able to transfer indexes, what file formats, etc. Thanks. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:52:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexes of translations Janet wrote: > >I absolutely agree with you. It would not be appropriate to simply translate >an index. And it would lead to incorrect page numbers. > >Since the sentence structure and syntax in a foreign language are different >from English, the length of the paragraphs, and therefore the pagination, >would be different. Good points, Janet. And another one: in the interests of using terms from the text whenever possible, the translated index needs to use the terms chosen by the translator of the text. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 22:52:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Writer's Market Hazel wrote (quoting from Writer's Market): >"...charge higher hourly rate if using a computer >index program that takes fewer hours." >I guess the author assumes that many indexers use index cards and that a >"computer index program" (Macrex? Cindex? a no-human-needed "automatic >indexer"?) automatically makes the task go much more quickly. Not question >of thought involved here. Well... when I started using Macrex I doubled my efficiency--not because it does my thinking for me, but because it does everything else, leaving me to just do the thinking. Whether that's what Writer's Market meant, I don't know! :-) (We've all heard the "computer does the thinking" argument too many times!) I work too fast now to charge by the hour, anyway. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:11:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: fun in indexes! (LONG) Although we as indexers may find this sort of index to be funny (and it is), we must remember that our allegiance is not to our sense of humor but rather to our customers (publishers and authors) and their customers (readers). To put this into perspective, let's try an analogy here with another group of professionals: You call an electrician because you have a light that's not working or whatever. The electrician "fixes" it and because he is really a jolly guy, he decides to add a little something extra to his work with you, because he knows you have a sense of humor, too. He booby traps something so that after a certain period of time, there will be a small explosion, nothing serious, but just the same, your face will register extreme surprise. Meanwhile, the electrician is at home, laughing to himself, thinking about how your face is going to look when his little idea of humor makes itself known. Guess what? You don't call that electrician again because it cost you money and time to fix his little surprise. And you warn your friends about him, too... It is possible to think up of all sorts other professions in which someone with a sense of humor could inject a little something extra with disastrous results. Before anyone flames me on this, just remember, as someone else said recently, that we as indexers are trying hard to make sure that indexers are seen as the professionals that we are. There is a time and a place for humor, and again as someone has recently stated, anything of this sort should be cleared first with the editor and the author. At 05:06 PM 12/1/96 -0500, Rhonda Keith wrote: >>>In an index to a software manual done at the company I worked for back in >>>the early 70's, the indexer put in these cross references (sorted properly >>>of course): >>> >>>Circle >>> see Circuit >>>Circuit >>> see Loop >>>Loop >>> see Orbit >>>Orbit >>> see Ring >>>Ring >>> see Circle >> >> >>he he. But doesn't an index entry like this compromise the quality of the >>book? My publisher (and their editors and authors) spends *months* planning, >>editing, and advertising the books we publish, so I feel like I owe them the >>best index I can write. I'd feel guilty if a reader bought a $59.99 book, >>flipped to the index, and found a handful of bogus entries... >> >>Erika >> >> >If the index is complete and otherwise good, the reader isn't losing >anything by a little something on the side. > >Rhonda Keith >Only You Publications >Autobiography~Oral History Services > and >Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing >Boston > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 07:58:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: New business name >I got to thinking and came up with TrueWord Indexing Service for myself. >But I have begun to wonder is this would have a religious connotation to >some people, as in, the Bible is the true word of God?? I do not want to >be perceived as a religious zealot or to appear sacreligious. What do you >Index-L'ers think? I have to agree with one of the other posters, that if you think this might sound religious, someone else is bound to. But there must be another way to use your name, or "True," effectively in a business name. If you just start writing a list of possibilities, something will strike you. Or perhaps you could have a little contest -- ask for suggestions. The winner could receive one of your new business cards. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: electronic transfers--new info Have any of >you used Stuffit 4.0? In re humor in business: Someone thought "Stuffit" was a cute name, and obviously people are buying the product. But it's not only humorous, it's faintly rude. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New business name How about Ann Indexing Service? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:20:27 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: New business name On Mon, 2 Dec 1996, Rhonda Keith wrote: > Or perhaps you > could have a little contest -- ask for suggestions. The winner could > receive one of your new business cards. I'm all for it! Sounds like fun! Let us know if you'd like business name suggestions. Hazel (who's been in business since 1985 and who's never managed to come up with a business name and who probably should have a contest, except that she already has business cards) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Dogs come when they're called; cats take a message and get back to you."--Missy Dizick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:08:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Heather L. Ebbs" Organization: Editor's Ink Subject: Re: Fun in indexes! I think we should bear in mind that there's a difference between gentle humour or wit and unkind humour or practical jokes. I believe the former is acceptable, although the opportunity and _appropriateness_ may be rare. I offer again my own example of Sir John A. finding no comfort in his grave: the entry was fairly transparent and would not send a reader on a fruitless search, I did point out the entry to my client (in case my humour sensor was out of whack) and index length was not an issue. The indexing "humour" that would send a reader on a circuitous or endless route is, I think, of the latter sort, as is the inclusion of a bogus entry. But as "one should _never_ generalize", as the saying goes, I won't say that the latter form of humour is never appropriate; it may be appropriate to a slapstick type of book, for example. Heather Ebbs editink@istar.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:07:52 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Trish Wittenstein Subject: Indexes in the News Hi, All, Whenever I see an index mentioned in a book review it usually is used to prove a point of some kind, i.e. so-and-so knew all kinds of famous people, look in the index. In the latest issue of _The New York Times Book Review_ , Dec. 1, 1996, the review of _Clint Eastwood, A Biography_ is along the same lines but goes into a bit more detail: "The first of many allusions or direct references to [Pauline Kael] appears on page 4, the last on page 498, and the book's index includes six entries alone under the heading 'Kael, Pauline, animus against Eastwood.'" Ah, isn't it good to see references to indexes being used in the mainstream media! Trish Wittenstein Three Rivers, California ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:27:17 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rollie Littlewood Subject: Re: electronic transfers--new info At 08:00 AM 12/2/96 -0500, Rhonda Keith wrote: > Have any of >>you used Stuffit 4.0? > >In re humor in business: Someone thought "Stuffit" was a cute name, and >obviously people are buying the product. But it's not only humorous, it's >faintly rude. Rude or not, it is a very popular program in the Macintosh world. The name describes what it does quite well--stuffs the contents of a file into a smaller file (actually, it has a number of related functions as well). Rudeness or crudeness is not given nearly as much consideration in the computer business as in the publishing business. Rollie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 12:36:06 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Karl E. Vogel" Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Indexing Using Thesauri >> On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:39:28 -0600, Judith happily burbled: J> As far as indexing the Internet -- oooo, what a voltaile topic. At the J> moment, the current indexing engines (also called search engines) use a very J> general keyword search approach. This is true for most of the search engines. The folks at Yahoo! have a staff of 30-40 librarians to classify new web pages according to an evolving hierarchy. Some of the other engines (like AltaVista) use just the information contained in the tags of web pages, so you can determine just how your page is to be indexed by putting in the keywords of your choice. One of the first projects to run headlong into this problem was the Interpedia group. These folks wanted to create an Internet encyclopedia, and a big sticking point was how to catalog/index articles. Unfortunately, I haven't heard anything from the Interpedia mailing lists for about 10 months. J> A friend of mine told me once that if just two librarians had been in the J> room when the Internet was invented, then it wouldn't be in the mess it is J> now!! Very likely true, but it's really more of a Web problem than an Internet problem. There are voluntary standards in place for the organization of FTP sites, etc. to make retrieval easier, but I haven't seen them used very often. One of the best examples I've seen of a working standard for cataloging new stuff is the Linux Software Map. When people create or upgrade packages for use with the Linux operating system, they usually create a file with a ".lsm" extension; this file is basically a "card-catalog" entry for the package which makes it a lot easier to find what you're looking for. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c17.wpafb.af.mil 937-255-3688 Control Data Systems, Inc. ASC/YCOA, Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433 Diplomacy - the art of letting someone have your way. --Ken Applin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: electronic transfers--new info In a message dated 96-12-02 08:02:40 EST, you write: > Have any of > >you used Stuffit 4.0? > Stuffit is always good to have around, but I just started using a new version of WinZip (6.2 for win95 from Niko Mak computing) that is absolutely wonderful. It not only zips and unzips files (including stuffit ones) but also decodes MIME encoding and all kinds of other compression routines. I have been using it to receive files and decompress them. It's been uploaded to the AOL software libraries, probably also on Compuserve and other sources. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:20:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sarah H Lemaire Subject: Re: Writer's Market In-Reply-To: <199612020812.AA10727@world.std.com> Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Macrex? Sarah ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 14:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Re: Thesauri and Database Indexing > Judith A. Jablonski wrote: > > Janet, > > Many of the conversations here that I've read of late have to do with > back-of-the-book indexes. This is often done by freelance indexers. A > thesaurus -- which is a list of controlled (i.e., preselected) index > terms is usually used in database indexing. Just to remind everyone, there _are_ database indexers participating in Index-L. I use both MeSH and another secondary publisher's in-house thesaurus for database indexing. I'd be happy to talk about database indexing either by private e-mail or on the list. There have been past threads on database indexing, which had some terrific discussions of controlled vocabularies and their usefulness for BOB indexers, as well as their general utility. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:29:35 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: Thesauri and Database Indexing S Greenhouse wrote: Just to remind everyone, there _are_ database indexers participating in Index-L. Yoo-hoo!! There _are_ periodical indexers out here, too. :-] We also use thesauri. See and See also references are automatic in our system (STAR by Cuadra) and the vocabulary is tightly controlled. Except for names of military operations & exercises, space projects, and airplane types, each change to the thesaurus must be approved by a committee. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 15:51:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Judith A. Jablonski" Subject: Who's Who on Index-L >> Just to remind everyone, there _are_ database indexers participating in Index-L. << I've only been on the list for a few weeks and the conversation has been primarily conducted by freelancers. I certainly hope there are all sorts of indexers hanging out here! Just think -- they who control the information, control the world. . . . we could plot an evil conspiracy to take over the universe. . . . . Sorry, end of term crazies struck!! Judith Jablonski ******************************************* Judith A. Jablonski School of Library and Information Studies University of Wisconsin - Madison Email: jajablon@macc.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:51:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: New business name WordenDex@AOL.COM wrote: > > How about Ann Indexing Service? I think this is great, but looks like some type of goofy typo to me. Makes me remember a letter I got while in college (when my name was Ann S. Wilson). It was addressed to Miss Ass S. Wilson. I saved it for a long time and still get a hoot out of it. :-D I'm afraid Sonzie hit the nail on the head-- If it even occurs to me that TrueWord will be taken wrong it will be by *someone*. Thanks all for your input. I'm open to a contest. Who's gonna be judge? Perhaps Tidecreek Indexing? Sea Island Indexing? (I live in coastal SC.) I really don't want to use Truesdale. Hey, how about WordTrue Indexing?? Sounds less (possibly) religious to me. -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in direct proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 16:30:56 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: New business name My entry (do we get more than one?) for Ann's new business name is (fanfare, drum roll)~~ Littoral Indexing ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:25:28 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MrsIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New business name Tried and True? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:49:43 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Macrex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Writer's Market Macrex was the first major indexing program on the market and has been available in North America for 11 years. It is a menu-driven MS-DOS based program which is fully compatible with Windows, OS/2 and Macintosh systems (you'll need a PC or Windows emulator with most Macintoshes). It will run on the original IBM PC but is better suited to a faster processor. On a system with 640K RAM and a hard disk, it can comfortably handle indexes with several thousand entries; on 386 or better systems the extended version of Macrex can auto-sort and merge 1,000,000 or more entries (an index of this size needs 16Mb RAM and approximately 25Mb hard disk space). Macrex is in use by professional indexers, publishers, editors, authors and professionals from many other fields. It is used to manage indexex of newspapers, periodicals, books, manuals, photographs, filing cabinets, works of art, genealogical records, household inventories and much more. Macrex is used in several universities to assist instructors in teaching indexing skills. Designed to reduce repetitive typing, Macrex is a user-friendly, productivity increasing tool for anyone who needs to create an index. Format changes, creation of a word processing document, importation from a database, and much more are just a keystroke away. With Macrex you will see your index as it is developed, instantly able to judge the fitness of an entry in relation to the other entries. Updating an index? Macrex lets you work in page number order. Working from un-numbered galley pages? Enter temporary numbers and let Macrex insert the correct numbers when final pages are available. Working with one of a series of volumes? Save time and keystrokes by telling Macrex to insert the volume number for you. Need multiple indexes (perhaps subject and name) for the same material? Use "hidden" flags to identify which index each entry belongs to and you'll only need to go through the material once. Edit or print a selection of entries based on a common characteristic, check the depth of your indexing, track the time spent working on the index, print on any printer including PostScript, and much more. With Macrex a first time user can cumulate an index for a series of publications, extract main headings (with or without subentries) for vocabulary control or creat elaborate page references. Backed by free life- of-the-version (plus six months) technical support, Macrex includes a "Getting Started with Macrex" which will have you working on an index in minutes. If you would like to "test drive" Macrex, the demo is $50.00, fully applicable toward the price of the Full Version ($495.00). In the interest of increasing the professionalism of indexers, a 20% discount is offered to members of the American Society of Indexers and the Indexing and Abstracting Society of Canada. Students and instructors in approved indexing courses are offered a $200.00 discount. To obtain the Macrex brochure and order form, please drop us a note with your name and Usnail address. To order, send your check to Wise Bytes, P. O. Box 3051, Daly City, CA 94015-0051 or call (415) 756-0821 with your Visa, MasterCard, Discover or Am/Ex in hand. Gale Rhoades Director Macrex Sales & Support Office For Australia, Nw Zealand and South East Asia, e-mail mindexer@interconnect.com.au For the rest of the world, e-mail hcalvert@cix.compulink.co.uk Macrex, the choice of professionals around the world ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:52:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Organization: Crossover Information Services Subject: Re: New business name Oh no! I think I need a new name too, now that another Ann has brought the subject up... and for the same reason. I used part of my last name to make my business name, and I have the feeling the "Cross" part also has a religious connotation, just like TrueWord. Darn. Can the list help another Ann?? Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services--'til I run out of letterhead ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:12:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Barbara Stroup Subject: fun in indexes? I've been following this discussion with interest and am reminded of a short piece in a current New Yorker magazine about subway graffiti "pros." They write on cars in the middle of the night, knowing that the morning crew will apply a new and effective paint remover to remove their work before the train leaves the yard. Is there an element of graffiti writing when one leaves anonymous "humor" in an index? If attribution for index writers appeared in every book we do, would the temptation be as strong? My own "graffiti" story - There's a computational linguistics theory called "Stroop-like effect." Even though it received only a little attention in the text, I just had to put it in the index. Barbara Stroup, spelled correctly of course! There are such things as cause and effect, but they have nothing to | | do with each other... "Books are the carriers of civilization. Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a stand still. Without books, the development of civilization would have been impossible." Barbara W. Tuchman 1979 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 13:39:22 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Claire A. Splan" Subject: Re[2]: Fun in indexes? As a project editor at a computer book publisher, I have to say I have found this discussion of humor in indexes a little alarming. The amount of time editors have to review and edit an index is usually very little--at my company it is usually as little as two to four hours. That time goes to checking style, formatting for typesetting, checking pagination, and a frightfully quick proofread. I've been doing this for a few years now, and gee, frankly it never occurred to me that I had to also be scouring the index for little bombs that an indexer might have intentionally planted! I can appreciate the humor of the manuals cited in this discussion as long as I can assume that it was done with the advance approval of the editor. But if an indexer injected this sort of humor into an index for one of my books, this indexer would not work for me again. And if, god forbid, I didn't find the bogus entry before the book went to print, that indexer would get an extremely irate call from me. All I can say is, if you really feel the need to take it upon yourself to inject cute, humorous entries in an index, I hope you get a really good chuckle over it--it's quite likely that it will be the last index you'll do for that publisher! Claire ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? Author: Indexer's Discussion Group at CCNODE Date: 11/27/96 7:49 AM >In one of the computer programming books that I indexed several months >ago, I put in an entry for > > loops > eternal, see loops That's great. Did you also list under "eternal"? . I've also >put things like "Klink macro, see also Col. Hogan", but that never makes >it past the proofreader. :) Lots of sloppy and/or illiterate proofreaders around, though, so there are many possibilities. Rhonda Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:32:05 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: New business name Ann, Since your name is Truesdale why not just call yourself Truesdale Indexing and let the subliminal 'true' do its natural thing? -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New business name I'm not an Ann, but I am just about ready to change the name of my business. As some of you know, I recently moved. I need new everything--letterhead, business cards, etc--and was planning on creating a brochure as well. So, allowing that my first two names (Leslie and Leland) are pretty dull, I was going to try to work with Frank. I think it has more possibilities. Any suggestions are welcome. Maybe those of us getting ready to change names or create them should put our heads together. BTW, I like "Tried and True." Leslie of Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services Indexing and Editing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:08:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Fun in indexes! >I think we should bear in mind that there's a difference between gentle >humour or wit and unkind humour or practical jokes. True. The analogy elsewhere to an electrician jolting his customers doesn't necessarily apply to a little mild word play. >The indexing "humour" that would send a reader on a circuitous or endless >route is, I think, of the latter sort, as is the inclusion of a bogus >entry. But as "one should _never_ generalize", as the saying goes, I >won't say that the latter form of humour is never appropriate Where it demonstrates its own meaning ("endless loop") it's really a way of teaching, with humor. On the other hand, if "endless loop" led to "twit of a reader" instead of "loop, endless" then it wouldn't be a nice joke. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:35:19 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Paddy Satzer Organization: William Mitchell College of Law Subject: citing index work in resume Hello! I'm updating my resume and I would like to include the indexes that I've created in the 'publications' section. So far I have created three indexes. Two of the indexes were back-of-the-book type, the third index is a periodical index for our school newspaper. I think the cite for the periodical index is the easier question. The index will always be a separate title (not bound with the periodical) and it is something that I am sole author of. The cites for the back-of-the-book indexes have me baffled. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks for your help, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:11:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: New business name >Thanks all for your input. I'm open to a contest. Who's gonna be judge? You, of course. >Perhaps Tidecreek Indexing? Sea Island Indexing? How about "See Island Indexing"? Hey, how about WordTrue Indexing?? >Sounds less (possibly) religious to me. Also less so to me. Truisms? Truly Yours? Too True? (Stop me before I hurt myself.) Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 18:13:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: New business name Can the list >help another Ann?? > >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services--'til I run out of letterhead Norcross is the name of a greeting card company, I believe. Northern Cross? The Southern Cross is a constellation; is there a Northern Cross? Crosswords? Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DBRENNER@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Demo Program Hi again. Weren't you going to send me a complementary demo copy of Macrex??? I really would love to give it a try. Please let me know. Thanks. Diane Brenner P.O. Box 206, Worthington, MA 01098. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:25:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: New business name In-Reply-To: <199612022341.SAA13379@polaris.net> On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > my first two names (Leslie and Leland) are pretty dull, I was > going to try to work with Frank. I'll tell you, there isn't much one can do with "Hazel," "Blumberg," or "McKee," let alone a hyphen. "Witch Hazel"? "Which Hazel"? Ah, to go business nameless through life. FWIW, I like "Tried and True," also. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Law school is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's lousy."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 20:41:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: New business name I'm gonna vote for Sea Island Indexing because 1. It's not another [personal name] Indexing Services. (Nothing against those, but there are a lot of them.) 2. It's not another play on words that either (a) the readers don't get or (b) if they do, don't think it's cute. (What, me worry about "Between the Lines"?) 3. It's distinctive and memorable. 4. It's easy to say, lays nicely on the tongue. IMHO Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:22:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! With the posting from the McGraw-Hill editor, our thread on fun in indexes has gone full circle. Now we've heard the other side. Those of you who found this thread funny have now got the publishers wondering how many of us are serious about our indexing. That's what I was afraid of, and it isn't funny any more. For all those publishers reading Index-L .... Many of us take our indexing businesses very seriously, and do not agree with the opinions expressed here about fun in indexes. For some reason, my colleagues are not posting to this board right now, leaving the (mistaken) impression that most indexers agree with the fun-makers in the group. Not so, at all. I hope those of you who have not posted will do so now, to correct the mis-impression of lack of caring about quality and non-professionalism. I know there are many of you out there who care about your work. Sign me ... one Stodgy Old Indexer .... or Chief Curmudgeon, or whatever name you want to call me. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:59:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MrsIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! >>I hope those of you who have not posted will do so now, to correct the mis-impression of lack of caring about quality and non-professionalism. I know there are many of you out there who care about your work.<< Okay, okay, I wouldn't intentionally put anything comical in an index, unless it were that kind of book and the author -wanted- that kind of index. I -do-, however, get a kick out of indexes that -end- -up- with funny juxtapositions, or with other funnies. I was doing one recently in which the the first letters of the subheadings of one heading, read vertically, spelt DIM MOPS. (There was a run-over in the first M's line.) I can't look at that page without seeing dim mops, especially since the editor insisted on caps for the first letters of headings and subheadings--very ugly, IMHO. Allison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:04:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! >For all those publishers reading Index-L .... Many of us take our >indexing businesses very seriously, and do not agree with the >opinions expressed here about fun in indexes. For some >reason, my colleagues are not posting to this board right now, >leaving the (mistaken) impression that most indexers agree >with the fun-makers in the group. Not so, at all. >I hope those of you who have not posted will do so now, to >correct the mis-impression of lack of caring about quality >and non-professionalism. I know there are many of you out >there who care about your work. I very much agree. The purpose of an index is to help the reader NOT mislead him or her. I see nothing funny about causing the reader, or the editor, grief. ******************************************************** Lawrence H. Feldman Post Office Box 2493 Wheaton Maryland 20915-2493 301-933-2616 Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer - Researcher - Writer ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:18:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! In-Reply-To: <199612030226.SAA15848@mx5.u.washington.edu> I fully agree with Janet; or to quote Queen Victoria, "We are not amused!" Wearing my librarian hat, I consider it outrageous that any indexer would DELIBERATELY insert a blind cross reference, phony entry, or anything else that's going to cause problems and/or distractions for the user of the index, and cause more work for me at the reference desk. Wearing my indexer hat, I might be tempted to get funny at 2 in the morning when punch-drunk from pulling an all-nighter to meet a deadline; but NO WAY will those brainstorms make it into the file that is submitted. And if one DID slip by the final edit, it would quickly be followed by an abject apology to the client, a revised file, and a fervent promise to sin no more. Indexers are paid to turn out a professional, useable, error-free product - not to indulge in editorializing or whimsy. Another SOI/CC, Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. On Mon, 2 Dec 1996 JPerlman@AOL.COM wrote: > > I hope those of you who have not posted will do so now, to correct the > mis-impression of lack of caring about quality and non-professionalism. I > know there are many of you out there who care about your work. > > Sign me ... one Stodgy Old Indexer .... or Chief Curmudgeon, or whatever name > you want to call me. > > Janet Perlman > Southwest Indexing > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:22:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! At 09:22 PM 12/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >I hope those of you who have not posted will do so now, Sorry, I would have chimed in earlier, but you were doing so well I didn't think you needed any help. When I was in corporate life, we had a huge intranet with many discussion groups, one of which was dedicated to the use of humor in technical writing. I followed the group for about four years and the same arguments reiterated: yes, it would be nice to "lighten up" some of our dry technical manners, but the ability to do so without alienating or offending a significant portion of the readers was an elusive art. What is funny to one is annoying, intrusive, or offensive to someone else. What is funny the first time the reader encounters it becomes tiresome the fiftieth time he reads it. If the text is not absolutely flawless in answering the reader's technical questions, he can only be resentful that the writer spent time being funny and not fulfilling the basic purpose of the material. The same arguments apply to indexing. Humor (assuming I could safely identify it) would only be frosting on the cake once I was certain that my index was a 100% reliable roadmap to the reader. Given the vicissitudes of day to day indexing (as articulated so beautifully by Bob Richardson in a post several weeks ago) it is hard enough to produce accurate, usable indexes, much less funny ones. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 22:35:22 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lori Lathrop <76620.456@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? Okay, folks ... I guess I'll finally contribute my thoughts on this. To be honest, I'm too busy to keep up with INDEX-L on a daily basis, and I quickly delete digests that contain such silliness as "Fun in Indexes." I must admit, I had been hoping that this stupid thread would simply die a quick death; however, I see that it hasn't, and I can't blame Claire Splan and any other project editors who might subscribe to this list for being more than a little alarmed. Those of you who have attended my indexing workshops know that I stress professionalism and being true to the tone of the book. I often give examples of passing references that *might* seem to lend themselves to silly index entries. One example is an author's bad pun in a very technical computer book; the author was so proud of his bad pun that he ranted on about it for a whole paragraph. Of course, I did *not* create an entry for "bad pun" or any other silly entries that may have come to mind. In case you're wondering ... yes, I *do* have a well-developed sense of humor. I'm always delighted when people tell me they've had fun in my indexing workshops. My point is this: We *can* and *should* enjoy indexing; however, we don't have to resort to silly index entries to accomplish that. IMHO, if some of you honestly can't enjoy indexing without injecting such silliness, then I hope you do not call yourselves professional indexers because doing that would simply make it more difficult for those of us who *are* professional indexers to maintain credibility. As for bogus entries ... I put those on a par with innane computer viruses written by mean-spirited hackers who think it's "fun" to see if they can slip something past unsuspecting victims. I hope I've made my point. And now ... I really must get back to indexing. Lori ****************************************************************** Lori Lathrop ---------->INTERNET:76620.456@compuserve.com Lathrop Media Services, P.O. Box 3065, Idaho Springs, CO 80452 Office: 303-567-4447, ext. 28 / Fax: 303-567-9306 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 01:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Helen Schinske Subject: CHAT: Crossover Indexing as business name Ann Norcross wrote: >Oh no! I think I need a new name too, now that another Ann has brought >the subject up... and for the same reason. I used part of my last name >to make my business name, and I have the feeling the "Cross" part also >has a religious connotation, just like TrueWord. Darn. Can the list >help another Ann?? >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services--'til I run out of letterhead Ann, don't change it! I think that "Crossover," since it has its own meaning that has nothing to do with Christianity, is not going to bother anyone at all. Anyhow, I like it. "Crossword" might be good, too, except it sounds as though you were making up puzzles, not indexes. Cross Reference? Or, of course, the two Anns could go into business together as True Cross, thus offending *everybody*, and possibly getting sued by Blue Cross ... :?) Actually, to be completely serious, I think that business names containing puns are annoying after a while. The beauty of Wright Information Services is that it's a pun you can *ignore* if you want it to go away. Helen Schinske (who may just be jealous of those with punnable names) HSchinske@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 02:49:55 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael & Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! Given the way this thread has developed, I feel that I must defend myself and the entries that I mentioned (the "eternal loops" and "Klink macro, see also Col. Hogan"). The "loops, eternal see loops" entry DID make it into the printed book; however, I made sure to put the relevant page numbers under "eternal loops" so the reader could find what he or she was looking for. As for the Col. Hogan reference, I am an in-house indexer and am good friends with the person who proofread that index. I knew full well that they would see the reference, think it was funny, then delete it from the index. I had absolutely NO intention of that entry ever making it into the final printed book (which, I'm happy to say, does NOT have any bogus entries). I very rarely put humorous entries like that into my indexes, and never would I do it on a freelance project unless I knew that the editor wanted it like that. Cheryl Dietsch ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 05:12:56 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: ROBJRICH@AOL.COM Subject: Not-so-funny, with a caveat For the record: I completely agree with Claire Splan and with Janet Perlman. Playing "See what I got away with that the grownups didn't catch" is unprofessional and puerile. Flaunting it is worse. Legitimate humor is wonderful: it lightens the spirit and brightens the day. This is a pretty tough planet, and we need all the good cheer we can get. But intentionally blindsiding an editor and/or a reader is not legitimate, it is abusive. And, because most indexers work anonymously, it also is cowardly. So, to the editors who might read this, I ask: Please do not tar all of us with that childish brush. But (and this is even more important) please do not, in the future, interpret every inadvertent error as evidence of the indexer playing "Gotcha!" We do make mistakes. Some are simply embarrassing. Others are, quite accidentally, deliciously absurd. But they are unintentional, and I ask every editor who has followed this thread to remember this. It would be disastrous for either side (editors or indexers) to start running scared. Occam's Razor says: Do not attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity! (Or, in our case, by sheer fatigue). Overwhelmingly we take our work, and our professional integrity, very seriously. Bob Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Re[2]: Fun in indexes? > As a project editor at a computer book publisher, I have to say I have > found this discussion of humor in indexes a little alarming. The > amount of time editors have to review and edit an index is usually > very little--at my company it is usually as little as two to four > hours. No doubt some little indexing jokes stem from frustration with the decline of publishing standards -- you can hardly open any kind of book without finding errors, because editing and proofreading are disappearing as publishing is taken over by bigger and bigger corporations, and publishing people are replaced by marketing people. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:30:33 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: new business names Can the list >help another Ann?? > >Ann Norcross >Crossover Information Services--'til I run out of letterhead How about Nary a Cross Word ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 08:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Roberta Engleman Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Engleman Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! In-Reply-To: <96Dec2.212620-0500_est.1041-118330+68@email.unc.edu> I agree with Janet. If we wish to be taken seriously, we should not play one-sided games, such as introducing a false entry (a mother's name, for example) into a finished product to see if it gets caught. The end user suffers. I don't really think the user cares if we're having fun on the job. He simply wishes to use the tool that we have created. It is very hard for any group to gain standing as a profession, and it's easy to loose ground. If publishers are following this thread, they must realize that we have a long way to go. _____________________________________________________________________ Roberta Engleman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 07:46:41 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lonergan Lynn Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! The material I deal with every day is definitely not humorous in any way. Forty hours each week of airplane crashes, civil wars, political upheavals, and general military topics (pun intended) can get downright depressing. However, I would never think of inserting something frivolous in our periodical index. I _do_ keep a file of the funny stuff provided me by poor writers, editors, and proofreaders. Sometimes, real life is funny. Just last week I found a book review of _A Face Like a Chicken's Backside_ which will be indexed because of the subject matter. As a librarian, I also abhor extraneous entries in an index. I've spent too many hours helping patrons deal with awful indexes. If I found one of the entries mentioned earlier I would think, "how childish" _not_ "how funny." We need to take our work seriously but not ourselves. Margot Fonteyn said "Even the best monkey drops a coconut." Dropping a coconut is one thing. Intentionally flinging one is another. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lynn A. Lonergan Assistant Editor/Librarian Air University Library Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6424 334-953-2504; fax 334-953-1192 llonergan@max1.au.af.mil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sanindex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! I definitely agree with Janet. Quality must be a first consideration in creating indexes. I have one author that insists that his name and his children's names be inserted with their ages as page references. I cringe everytime I put this in. I would never put anything any that even hinted of some of the things I have seen recently on index-L. Sandi Schroeder, Schroeder Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:07:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joyce Nester Subject: Fun (?) in indexes I completely agree with Janet and others who have written to say that this whole thread, and others of late as well, serve only to diminish the image of indexing as a worthy profession. Another thought; I was royally flamed recently for suggesting that personal posts be kept off the list. I can't help but to wonder of some serious members of this list are reluctant to honestly state their views on these unprofessional threads because they wish to avoid a similar fate? When I first joined this list I found it to be most helpful and supportative. The generosity and depth of knowledge evidenced by the list members was very impressive. I began to see indexing as an intellectual, creative and challenging profession with great appeal. The list has definately changed. If free and open discussion of serious ideas can't be conducted on this list, it is in big trouble. If it is to be dominated by chat, it is dead. I sincerely hope that list members will think before posting in the future whether what they have to say somehow furthers the profession of indexing. If not, please send your comments directly to someone who shares your interest in the topic you wish to discuss. It will be greatly appreciated. Any falmes should be directed to me personally. Joyce Nester nester@vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ann M. Fleury" Subject: Re: business names As another indexer named Ann, I thought I would contribute my $.02 on the topic of business names. I do my indexing as part of a family business named Friar & Friar. My husband and an old friend were the two original partners doing various publishing and p.r.-type jobs, and they named the company after their high school teams' nickname, The Friars. Although the religious aspect of "friars" is certainly present, nobody has taken offense (that we know of, of course) and the company has been successfully in business for almost 10 years. Ann M. Fleury, Indexer and Librarian Temple Terrace, FL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 09:49:46 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun (?) in indexes Hello everyone, This has been a scintillating conversation. While I'm not sure I want to join the fray, I do have a thought on the matter: There is a difference between finding humor in our work and inserting humor into our work. For example, I was recently working on a combined author and subject index. In a section on environmental legislation, Kermit the Frog was quoted ["It's not easy being green."]. I feel it was absolutely legitimate for me to include "Kermit the Frog" in the index. I also found it delightful to include him in the index and that our congressmen appreciate him enough to quote him on the floor of the House of Representatives. Perhaps this is the sort of humor that started this whole thread? "Loops, eternal. See Eternal loops" is a legitimate entry, and a delightful one, at least to this former math-head. I hope we can all continue to enjoy our indexes, and if anyone has a suggestion for how one should enter "green, being", feel free to hop it on over...! Happy indexing, Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 11:30:24 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Automatic indexing I thought perhaps someone on this list might know of (or be) an expert located in Scandinavia who would be interested in this opportunity. Jessica Milstead voice: 203/740-2433 The JELEM Company fax: 203/740-1152 P.O. Box 5063 76440.2356@compuserve.com 17 Brooks Lane Brookfield, CT 06804 ----Forwarded Message(s)---- #: 14597 S0/CompuServe Mail [MAIL] 29-Nov-96 12:01 EST Sb: Automatic indexing Fm: Lena Tingstam > INTERNET:lena.tingstam@smtpgw.svd.se To: Jessica Milstead [76440,2356] Svenska Dagbladet in Stockholm, Sweden is going to host a seminar for researchers, archivists and librarians at newspapers in the Nordic countrys. Therefore, I thought perhaps that you had any knowledge of possible experts in your field, who are situated here in Scandinavia, since we could probably not afford an american expert. We are especially interested in works about auto-indexing. But other ideas would be very appriciated. Thanks in advance best wishes Lena Tingstam Ass. Research editor Svenska Dagbladet +46 8 13 52 06 ----End Forwarded Message(s)---- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 13:06:05 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Re: Another publisher's opinion on fun with indexes I've been following this humor thread now, and I've gotta admit I agree with Clare. I work at a publisher and like to think I have a decent sense of humor (those of you out there who've worked with me will hopefully agree!!). But, egads, I'm working on reference books that students and librarians and business people are using. They don't have much time. They need their information now. Leading them on a wild goose chase--even if for only a few extra seconds--ain't good, folks. Frustration takes over, the book slams shut, and they're on to the next book to look for their information. I agree with the notion that a humorous book could include a few humorous entries. And including someone (thing?) like Kermit the Frog seems OK to me: it's a bit offbeat, but if there truly is a reference to Kermie, and what he said is relevant, then, hey, OK. Finally, the following statement seemed a bit childish and mean-spirited to me. >No doubt some little indexing jokes stem from frustration with the decline >of publishing standards -- you can hardly open any kind of book without >finding errors, because editing and proofreading are disappearing as >publishing is taken over by bigger and bigger corporations, and publishing >people are replaced by marketing people. Yeah, I work for a publisher that isn't owned by Ma and Pa. But, by and large, the people who work here (that would be me, the hard-working editor on my staff, the person in the Permissions Dept., the Art Dept. guy who's doing a whiz-bang job on CD graphics, and, yes, even that evil Marketing person -- and on and on) work hard, want their products to be as good as they can be, and have pride in what they do. The above statement makes it sound like someone with hands on hips saying, "If you make a mistake, well then I'm going to make a mistake, too. Ha, ha. I bet my dad could beat up your dad." Yuck. I view (most) freelancers we work with as partners, not "them" in a "we vs. them" contest. We all make mistakes from time to time, and, yes, there are times when the schedule rears its ugly head and we let some things go that we don't deem as show-stoppers. (Do we delay a book a month and spend additional money to make sure that a few minor typos get corrected? No, not usually. Even Ma and Pa are in the business to make money, and losing a month's revenue and spending additional money to make changes that won't affect a reader's comprehension usually don't make sense.) Sorry if this isn't as organized as I'd like it to be (guess my memo-writing skills have started goin' down the tubes ever since that Marketing Dept. coup a few years back). My overall impression is that the vast majority of INDEX-L'ers are responsible, professional indexers, so I wouldn't worry too much about us evil publishing types thinking indexers are a bunch of goofoffs!! Larry Baker Gale Research larry_baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:32:27 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: New business name How about True Indexing? One thing I've been known to do when I want to incorporate a particular word into a title and can't come up with something catchy is look up the word in _Bartlett's Familiar Quotations_. I just scan the list of phrases for the particular word in the index and sometimes find something that inspires me. There are two long columns of phrases for the word "true." Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:32:43 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Fun in indexes! Rhonda said: >True. The analogy elsewhere to an electrician jolting his customers doesn't >necessarily apply to a little mild word play. I'd like to reiterate a point I made yesterday, which I may not have stated very clearly. Although I think Rhonda's right to think that word play is not dangerous in the same way that the electrician's boobytraps are, I think it's a mistake to dismiss it as *entirely* harmless. My point the other day was that something the indexer might take as merely humorous might make the reader wonder whether the author is to be taken seriously (especially in a scholarly book). That's a risk that is not the indexer's to take. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:32:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: citing index work in resume > The cites for the back-of-the-book indexes have me baffled. Does >anyone have any ideas? I just have a section of my resume called "Books Indexed," so I list the titles of the books, followed by author's name, name of publisher, and year of publication. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:49:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Ergonomics A new store called "Healthy Back" opened in Raleigh recently. It is dedicated to devices to help people with back problems. In addition to special mattresses, pillows, lumbar supports, etc. they offer a broad line of computer workstations, ergonomic chairs, and various accessories. I bought a support for my arm when working the mouse. The device clamps to any desk edge and consists of an articulated arm with a padded stirrup on the end. You rest your forearm in the stirrup and the mechanical arm swivels to follow the movements of your arm. I like the way it moves. I haven't used it enough to decide if it really relieves fatigue. I also looked at an ergonomic chair: adjustable armrests, pneumatic lumbar support, fully adjustable seat and back, etc. It was not cheap (nothing there was -- $1,200 for the chair, $85 for the mouse support) but considering the amount of time I spend in front of my computer I am seriously considering it. They have a web site at www.healthyback.com. Dick (No, I am not affiliated with the store in any way) Evans ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:52:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Indexing Musical Subjects I am about to begin indexing a 231 page book about a composer's work. The book is a part of a series and, frankly, the indexes of most of the other 5 books in the series are somewhat spotty as far as guidelines go. The press has given me their usual standard guidelines and I pretty much have a free rein within a 825 line limit. Since I have not done too many of these types of books, could a musical indexer (one who is both musical and indexes music books!) please give me ideas of what are the usual stumbling blocks one encounters when doing this sort of material (i.e., musical composition titles, segments within compositions, headings by instruments or pieces written for them, etc.). Also, which music dictionary do you recommend (Harvard)? What about the Oxford Companion to Music? Any other tools that would help to make synonymous entries and the like? Thank you for your help. ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 12:41:39 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: Ergonomics In-Reply-To: <199612031956.LAA20432@mail6.netcom.com> The store also has some branches in Southern California. I did buy one of those high end chairs and it is great. The personal at the store I went to were very helpful. Just my opinion. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Richard T. Evans wrote: > A new store called "Healthy Back" opened in Raleigh recently. It is > dedicated to devices to help people with back problems. In addition to > special mattresses, pillows, lumbar supports, etc. they offer a broad line > of computer workstations, ergonomic chairs, and various accessories. I > bought a support for my arm when working the mouse. The device clamps to > any desk edge and consists of an articulated arm with a padded stirrup on > the end. You rest your forearm in the stirrup and the mechanical arm > swivels to follow the movements of your arm. I like the way it moves. I > haven't used it enough to decide if it really relieves fatigue. > > I also looked at an ergonomic chair: adjustable armrests, pneumatic lumbar > support, fully adjustable seat and back, etc. It was not cheap (nothing > there was -- $1,200 for the chair, $85 for the mouse support) but > considering the amount of time I spend in front of my computer I am > seriously considering it. > > They have a web site at www.healthyback.com. > > Dick (No, I am not affiliated with the store in any way) Evans > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 14:48:36 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was maryann@ELMO.REVISOR.LEG.STATE.MN.US From: Maryann Corbett Organization: Revisor of Statutes Subject: Joyce Constantine's address Hi, all, I'm trying to reply to a private e-mail from Joyce Constantine. My message has bounced. Joyce, if you're reading, e-mail me again and see if you can send me a full address. Sorry to bother the list with this. -- Maryann Corbett Language Specialist Office of the Revisor of Statutes Minnesota Legislature 612-297-2952 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:20:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Musical Subjects Cynthia Bertelsen just asked about musical subjects, as did Julia Marshall a few days ago. As I replied to Julia, the treatment of musical titles is probably the most complicated subject. According to Chicago Manual of Style (which many books in music follow), titles of long works are given in italics. Titles of short works, or movements of longer works (arias of an opera, for example) are given in quotes. However, names of works that are generic forms, e.g., symphony, rondo, sonata, etc. are given in roman. It is also helpful to be consistent in the use of titles. I recommend full titles such as: Piano Concert No 5 in D-flat Minor Piano Sonata in A Major, Op. 53, No. 2 Symphony No. 9 in C Major ("The Great") (Note that nicknames not given by the composer are in quotes. ) Thay way, you will have most of the compositions for each instrument grouped together. You can also use see references such as: Piano variations. See Variations on a Theme of Scharwenka The best reference source for this area is Grove's Dictionary of Music, the standard, multi-volume reference work in English on subjects musical.The Harvard Dictionary of Music is probably the best standard dictionary for the area. You might also want to have Paul Henry Lang's History of Western Music at hand for background information. And, feel free to ask me any questions. (I've been in arts management since 1974 and was a violin performance major in college.) If the composer is African American, you might want to get Samuel A. Floyd, Jr.'s The Power of Black Music. Hope all this helps. Good luck. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 21:49:00 GMT0 Reply-To: jsampson@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: John Sampson Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! > For all those publishers reading Index-L .... Many of us take our > indexing > businesses very seriously, and do not agree with the opinions expressed > here > about fun in indexes. If you want a vote, mine, as others, would be for humour in an index being by arrangement with the author and publisher. Apart from that I am not paid to put unsolicited jokes in indexes. _John Sampson_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:50:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! In a message dated 96-12-02 21:27:09 EST, you write: > Many of us take our indexing > businesses very seriously, and do not agree with the opinions expressed here > about fun in indexes. For some reason, my colleagues are not posting to > this > board right now, leaving the (mistaken) impression that most indexers agree > with the fun-makers in the group. Not so, at all. I've actually just been waiting for the whole thing to just die down. Goodness! As I said in my first post, I have only put humor in an index _solely_ at the client's emphatic request to index his silliest passages. I would never ever do it otherwise. It's why I look forward to his books, as it is the _only_ time I ever get to do such things. Indexes are hard enough to proofread and edit without making them laced with got-ya's. In my former life working in manual production for a software company I have seen this kind of secret bomb behavior blow up and destroy people's reputations. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 18:30:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Enough fun in indexes? In-Reply-To: <199612032150.QAA17328@polaris.net> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996 JanCW@AOL.COM wrote: > I've actually just been waiting for the whole thing to just die down. And so have I. > Goodness! As I said in my first post, I have only put humor in an index > _solely_ at the client's emphatic request to index his silliest passages. I > would never ever do it otherwise. It's why I look forward to his books, as it > is the _only_ time I ever get to do such things. Which is precisely what this thread was about. I think things have gotten interpreted, reinterpreted, and overinterpreted completely out of hand. Could we please move on to something else? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Law school is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's lousy."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:40:30 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Humor, in life and work Just to ad my 2 cents: When I'm working hard and under deadline, I have little time to interject humor into an index. I stick to the "just the facts, ma'am" school of indexing. On the other hand, I'd love to work on a bookfor which a humorous index would be appropriate. I thought that that was where this discussion started. Oops. Sorry for my typos. Anyway, you get the gist of my point. I for one think we've all gotten rather cranky of late on this list. I hope it isn't a sign of anything more perverse than overwork. As for the paranoia of "lurking publishers" who are taking notes about our unprofessional behavior, I hope we can put that to rest or we'll have trouble establishing any meaningful dialogue here. That's the view from my cubicle for today! Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 19:17:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Humor, in life and work In-Reply-To: <199612032343.SAA15573@polaris.net> On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Barbara E. Cohen wrote: > On the other hand, I'd love to work on a bookfor which a > humorous index would be appropriate. How I would love that opportunity, too! Unfortunately, it hasn't come along yet. But I keep hoping. > I thought that that was > where this discussion started. I realize I'm getting into "me-too-ism," but that's what I thought the initial discussion was about, also. I know that I've often wanted to make entries like book, this incomprehensibility of I don't do so, but I indeed think about the incomprehensibility of the particular book, if it's one that's like a trip through the La Brea Tar Pits. > I for one think we've all gotten rather cranky of late > on this list. I think that holiday times can be really rough for everybody. Thanksgiving, Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, New Year, and whatever else I'm forgetting. We have to do so much--buy or make presents, work on projects, "pleasure the body" but not get too fat in the process--with the little bit of time we have in between all these holidays. Visiting friends and family can be lovely or horrid or something in between. It gets dark awfully early. It's cold (yes, even here in North Florida). I'll bet that the November through early January period of time takes a lot out of all of us. > I hope it isn't a sign of anything more perverse than > overwork. And another hearty "me, too." > As for the paranoia of "lurking publishers" who are taking notes > about our unprofessional behavior, I hope we can put that to > rest or we'll have trouble establishing any meaningful dialogue > here. I hope that more publishers write in. We've heard from at least two, and I hope that'll prompt more to write to Index-L. > That's the view from my cubicle for today! Well, Barbara's cubicle seems like a good and sensible and kind place to be today. Many thanks for the excellent posting! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 16:24:01 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: fun in indexes I posted this last night, bitnet bounced me. Here it is, if redundant: I'm in the stodgy-old-publications-person category. It seems traditional in publishing, and in the publishing services companies in which I once worked, for those associated with a particular manuscript to make comments on it that are meant for the eyes of the in-house people only. In two of the companies I worked for, we established a rule disallowing those entertaining, sometimes wildly hilarious notes that each new pair of eyes addended. We had to do it because occasionally such notes escaped the final censor and arrived at the publisher or, worse, in the author's hands. And those were notes that were never meant to see print or to influence the outcome of the printed book. The idea of indexers or anyone else deliberately inserting cutesie "signatures" or false names or any other bogus "facts" into a final product really irritates me. I worked for so many years in production edit that I am truly pained at the suggestion. This harkens to my ongoing concern that commitment to excellence in publishing is fading, facets of which I've previously addressed on Index-l. Of course, if the text allows, I am not above a piquant contrast made possible through adroit word choice and author intention, perhaps short of but perhaps inclusive of such entries as "comfort in his grave." But lengthy circular jokes? Fake entries? Those are errors, in my opinion. It troubles me. Jokes in the index to a humorous book? Sure. I guess I still think they should follow the text. That's the challenge, to me. Adding value while illuminating the true text at hand. Sign me stodgy-- Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:12:20 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MrsIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Musical Subjects Cynthia Bertelsen wrote: >>Also, which music dictionary do you recommend (Harvard)? What about the Oxford Companion to Music? Any other tools that would help to make synonymous entries and the like?<< I have the Oxford and I really love it. Grove's is the ultimate oppressively huge set (about 40 volumes), but if you use that you're going to have to do all your work at the library. It's also a good idea to have an unpretentious little music dictionary aimed at, say, college freshmen hoping to major in music education. Now and then, Oxford will jump right into a detailed discussion of something, forgetting to give a simple definition first. Allison Brooks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Parrish Subject: CHAT: Anns in Indexing (was Business Names) A fourth Ann speaks: Last summer in Denver where I first met members of my new profession, I was mystified by what seemed an unusual number of Anns (and Anne's) in indexing. That first day I took workshops from Ann and Anne in a conference directed by a third Ann. And I kept glimpsing the name on tags around me. I have rarely been an only Ann. Usually there is one other one in my vicinity. But what I noticed in Denver was not a usual cross-section of the population, and I have not figured out what it signifies. Any theories out there? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:21:22 -0500 Reply-To: jspool@uie.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Jared M. Spool" Organization: User Interface Engineering Subject: Reprint: Tutorial Lessons We've Learned People have recently shown interest in developing on-line tutorials to help users learn the key concepts of their applications. The following is a reprint of an article that was printed in the September/October 1996 issue of Eye For Design. I thought you might find this of interest. (There is information on how to get a sample issue of Eye For Design at the end of this message.) - o - o - o - Tutorial Lessons We've Learned by Carolyn Snyder In testing printed and online tutorials, we learned some lessons of our own! We learned what users expect from a tutorial, and how they work with it. We also saw some problems a designer can encounter when putting a tutorial online. _____________________ Users Go Out of Order In our tests, users chose their own path through the tutorials. One tutorial was presented in a particular sequence because it involved building an application. If users completed sections out of order, subsequent sections were not possible because of missing prerequisites. Despite a strong recommendation at the start of the tutorial to complete all sections in order, some users still skipped ahead to topics of greatest interest. The designers realized that it would have been better to make each section stand alone to support the users' exploratory behavior. _________________ Frequent Feedback Two tutorials we tested were initially designed so that the user spent the first several chapters constructing an application, and the verification step of actually running the application wasn't introduced until much later. Users weren't comfortable with this -- they wanted feedback early and often on their work. It's more gratifying to get something working really quickly, even if it's just a skeleton, like the classic "Hello world" application often used to introduce a new programming language. _______________________ Repetition Isn't Useful The purpose of the tutorials we tested was to introduce product concepts, not to improve user proficiency at completing tasks. We saw that users tended to skip sections of a tutorial that involved purely mechanical repetition. For example, when building a database form containing five similar edit fields, users created the first field or two, and then skipped ahead to the next unique activity. They commented that they didn't perceive any value in the repetition. _______________________ Been There? Done That? When we tested an online tutorial, users had trouble knowing what portions they had and hadn't covered, especially if they traversed sections out of order. In a couple cases, users accidentally skipped sections. The designers responded by adding checkmarks to completed sections and by highlighting the recommended next section -- this helped. __________ Can't Skim In an online tutorial, users found it much harder to skim or skip portions of the content than with a printed book. In early tests of one online tutorial, we found that users were annoyed when the tutorial covered material they already knew. In some cases, their annoyance was strong enough to color their perception of the entire product. This was actually good news for the development team -- they took out the annoying parts, shortening the tutorial and improving its effectiveness at the same time. __________________________ Sharing Screen Real Estate Sometimes, an online tutorial has to share screen real estate with the software. In one tutorial we tested, both the tutorial and the application needed the whole screen, so the user had to switch back and forth. We found two issues with this: Chunking of material: Users sometimes didn't remember when they were supposed to switch back to the tutorial. In testing, we found that some of the switches came at awkward times. The switches felt more natural to users when they occurred at a point of closure, such as clicking OK in a dialog box. If the tutorial expected the user to leave the dialog box open, we saw that the user would often get out of sync with the instructions. Based on this feedback, the designers re-chunked the material to fit the patterns that were more natural to users. Remembering data: Almost every time users had to remember data (such as the name of the file they were supposed to open) they either went back to the tutorial to look at it again, or they entered it wrong. The design team discussed ways to show the user the data right on the screen. ____________________________ Auto-pacing Impairs Learning Printed tutorials are inherently user-paced, but the designer of an online tutorial can make it automatically paced by having it go to the next screen after a pre-determined delay. We saw that users may absorb less content in an automatically-paced tutorial, when the pace is not under their control. The online tutorial we tested started out auto-paced, moving to the next screen as soon as the audio finished. Users were quite passive. Rather than utilizing the Pause button, users opted to let the tutorial run at the pace the designer had set. When we tested a self-paced design with Back and Next buttons, we found that users' learning style became more active. They spent noticeably more time on the screens that contained new concepts, taking the time to study illustrations and re-read text before going on. This had a positive effect on the amount of information they retained -- users who tested the self-paced design did better at answering technical questions about the material covered by the tutorial. ____________________ When Animation Helps One online tutorial displayed some complex visuals and devoted several screens of text to explaining them. We found that the first time the visual appeared, users spent a fair amount of time studying the whole thing, not realizing that the next several screens of the tutorial would explain everything they were looking at. The designers added some simple animation -- the tutorial highlighted the section currently under discussion with a briefly flashing outline. This helped the users realize that the tutorial was going to discuss parts of the illustration in sequence, so they didn't have to figure out everything on their own. - o - o - o - Eye For Design is published six times a year with articles on a variety of product design and usability issues. If you would like a complimentary issue mailed to you, just send your postal address to efd@uie.com. (Sorry, we do not have an email version available, yet.) Hope you found this to be of interest. Jared p.s. We'll ship your complimentary issue anywhere in the world, as long as you tell us what country your from. ========================================================== Jared M. Spool User Interface Engineering mailto:jspool@uie.com 800 Turnpike Street, Suite 101 (508) 975-4343 North Andover, MA 01845 fax: (508) 975-5353 USA ========================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:37:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: business names I do my indexing as part of a family >business named Friar & Friar. My husband and an old friend were the two >original partners doing various publishing and p.r.-type jobs, and they >named the company after their high school teams' nickname, The Friars. >Although the religious aspect of "friars" is certainly present, nobody >has taken offense (that we know of, of course) It would remind people of Friar Tuck, whom nobody thinks of as a religious figure, really. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 22:45:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Enough fun in indexes? >> Goodness! As I said in my first post, I have only put humor in an index >> _solely_ at the client's emphatic request to index his silliest passages. I >> would never ever do it otherwise. It's why I look forward to his books, as it >> is the _only_ time I ever get to do such things. And as for me, I introduced the subject because I am planning to index my own book, to be written by my own hands. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:17:29 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Ergonomics > >> A new store called "Healthy Back" opened in Raleigh recently. There is a similar store near where I live, in Brookline (next to Boston). Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 23:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rhonda Keith Subject: Re: Another publisher's opinion on fun with indexes > >>No doubt some little indexing jokes stem from frustration with the decline >>of publishing standards -- you can hardly open any kind of book without >>finding errors, because editing and proofreading are disappearing as >>publishing is taken over by bigger and bigger corporations, and publishing >>people are replaced by marketing people. > >Yeah, I work for a publisher that isn't owned by Ma and Pa. But, by and large, >the people who work here (that would be me, the hard-working editor on my >staff, the person in the Permissions Dept., the Art Dept. guy who's doing a >whiz-bang job on CD graphics, and, yes, even that evil Marketing person -- and >on and on) work hard, want their products to be as good as they can be, and >have pride in what they do. The above statement makes it sound like someone >with hands on hips saying, "If you make a mistake, well then I'm going to make >a mistake, too. Ha, ha. I bet my dad could beat up your dad." Yuck. I wasn't being mean spirited, just observant. Employees of publishing houses, either staffers or freelancers, are rather at the mercy of economic tides. It's easy to see differences in books published now compared with books published 20 or 40 or 60 or more years ago. And I think the difference has to do with these economic moves, which are affecting all American (and other) industry, not just publishing. (Do we delay a book a month and spend additional money to >make sure that a few minor typos get corrected? No, not usually. Even Ma and Pa >are in the business to make money, and losing a month's revenue and spending >additional money to make changes that won't affect a reader's comprehension >usually don't make sense.) This rather contradicts the previous paragraph. And this is what has changed: typos used not to be considered so "minor." And money was spent (or lost, if you see it that way) in making a better product. A typo might not change the sense -- though often enough it does -- but it distracts me worse than a joke would, and is much, much more common. Anyway, indexers are affected by the economy, like everyone else. We all adapt to conditions as we find them, and want to do our best. I meant to attack no one of us, but to comment on the economic climate as it affects the professional practice. Rhonda Keith Only You Publications Autobiography~Oral History Services and Writing, Editing, Desktop Publishing Boston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 09:31:29 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nan Badgett <76400.3351@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? I want to voice my strong agreement with Janet Perlman's posts on humor in indexes and professionalism. I also want to clarify that in my earlier post comparing bogus entries in indexes to those in film credits, I was not condoning the practice. If I had posted my initial reaction to this thread, it would have said there is no place for humor in the index to a serious book. I, too, want to see this list provide valuable discussion, not break down into mere chat. Nan Badgett dba Word-a-bil-i-ty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 10:32:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Chat (long) I realize that someone else came up with this idea, and I only wish I could remember who that person was. He or she had suggested that, in the subject line, people write something like "CHAT:" before the subject. In that way, those who do not wish to read such messages could safely delete them without reading. I feel that "mere chat" is very important to the lifeblood of a listserv. Many of us work alone. It's nice to have that "virtual water cooler" (I think that Elinor Lindheimer or Lynn Moncrief coined that marvelous phrase) around which to exchange pleasantries. And out of "mere chat" often come some extremely useful ideas: ergonomic solutions to computer-user pain, solutions to a sticky indexing problem that's been puzzling someone, and the like. I often come up with the solution to a problem when I'm most relaxed. Doesn't that happen to a lot of you? Another listserv to which I subscribe has extremely high volume. When I'm pressed for time, I delete a lot of messages without reading them. When I'm not as pressed for time, I follow a number of threads. Many times, "mere chat" has cleared up some editorial problem with which I've been wrestling. I can't begin to tell you how many important messages from that other list I've saved and referred to again and again. (I also save Index-L messages, believe me!) A listserv is a microcosm of life. Yes, many of us work alone (and even in-house indexers work pretty much alone; I've been there), but that doesn't mean we can survive with no people contact. Even as a self-employed person, people skills are absolutely vital. Clients remember you as a person, rather than as someone's voice on the phone or someone's e-mail message, if you let your personality shine through. Anyway, I frankly have no idea when "mere chat" dominated Index-L. This is the most content-rich listserv to which I've ever subscribed, and I've subscribed to quite a few. If you're precise in writing your subject lines (and as indexers, who better than you can write a succinct subject line?), then others will not read what doesn't interest them. I don't follow every thread on Index-L. I simply don't have the time. It's the holiday season, folks. How about a little "live and let live"? Or, if "mere chat" and humor must be eliminated from the list, perhaps we should set up two indexing listservs: one that is all business, all the time; and one that allows chat and humor. If we put this matter to a vote, I'd opt for joining list #2. The "problem" of chat and humor has come up several times in the not-too-distant past, so it must indeed be a problem for any number of people. Before more flame wars break out, perhaps we *should* consider having two lists. And I think that people have taken the "humor-in-indexing" thread *way* too seriously. No one is out there, throwing bombs at editors, proofreaders, and index users. No one is questioning professionalism of indexers. Calm down, and take a deep breath--while I don my asbestos-lined zoot suit. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Law school is the opposite of sex. Even when it's good, it's lousy."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:17:47 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jitse van der Meer Subject: indexing questions Dear Colleagues: This is a follow-up question re indexing of the 30,000 records in the Pascal Centre bibliographic database on religion and science. The observation was made that to release a partially finished index can be difficult, especially because indexes are a work in progress. My question: could anyone explain what problems may arise if an index would be released by the year indexed, starting with the current year and working backwards. Users would be informed of the status of the indexing project by indicating which years are accessible only by author and title. Thank you very much for your help. With kind regards. Dr. Jitse M. van der Meer jmvdm@redeemer.on.ca Professor of Biology (905)648-2131 Director Pascal Centre fax: (905)648-2134 Redeemer College 777 Hwy 53 East Ancaster, ON. Canada L9K 1J4 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 12:45:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: BethJT@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ergonomics There is another good web site with information on all kinds of neat stuff including how to set up your work/computer area to avoid problems with repitive stress, etc. Go to the http://WWW.learn2.com site and look for the article on ergnomics. There are also good articles on everything from how to clean your computer to using QuarkXpress. Very handy. Elizabeth Tudor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:04:49 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Chat (long) I suspect it's not practical to have (and keep distinguished) two lists, one for chat and one for serious, but I wish it were. The predominance of chat drove me away from index-l sometime back. I decided to try it again a couple of days ago, and was inundated with messages that appeared to approve of putting junk in indexes on the grounds that it amused the indexer at the time. It may take only a moment to get a message, read the subject line, and delete it, but those moments add up. If chat is to predominate, I'll have to leave index-l to the chat-ers. Jessica Milstead voice: 203/740-2433 The JELEM Company fax: 203/740-1152 P.O. Box 5063 76440.2356@compuserve.com 17 Brooks Lane Brookfield, CT 06804 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 14:32:09 -0800 Reply-To: greenhou@erols.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "S. Greenhouse" Subject: Content of Index-L ( long op-ed piece) I've subscribed to this listserve for over a year, and frankly enjoy interacting with other indexers through this avenue. I've read many posts that were informative and helpful - that made me really think about how I index and changed my approach to some subjects. I love the listserv (well, okay, like enormously) and would hate to see it split into the can and can-nots, or chatters and chat-nots.(It would be too tough to choose!) For me, the list functions as a community of professional adults to check in with, at my convenience, without interrupting my or another indexer's work flow for support, advice, information and occasional confirmation that I am not alone. (The adult bit is important to me, because my office staff consists of a 2.5 and a 5 year old, with whom conversation is continually possible, but often not professionally satisfying.) However, I have noticed a change (an evolution?) since the list became unmoderated (about a year ago?). Not to say that an unmoderated list is bad, or that we need an overseer, just noting a change. Posts have become more social, less business-oriented, less narrowly defined. (_not_ implying that this is either bad or good). Coincidentally, some old members seem to have dropped away as the list evolved. I feel I have gotten to know posters, and I have developed my own technique for dealing with the volume on the list. There are folks whose posts I *always* read, because they have interesting (to me), insightful (to me), and well focused things to say (to me). There are those posters that I just delete when I see their names, because I have come to realize that their posts are mostly the "Me, too." or "Good post!" variety. I don't remember how long ago there was a nearly-nasty thread about the kinds of posts most valuable to a listserv of this kind, with all kinds of advice about how to tell if one's post should be sent to _the list_ or _directly to the poster_ one is replying to in kind. This seems to flare up every once in a while. We appear to be the preliminary stages now. (Of course, I haven't quite decided whether I've fanned or doused the flare.) I suppose my point is that we all have _choices_ when it comes to reading posts. The list FAQ asks that the post address some facet of indexing (and conform to Netiquette). Does loneliness count as a facet of indexing? Can we accept that some are on this listserve for companionship as well as the educational and informational content? Is change really okay? I don't want to upset anyone, and I hope the flock doesn't circle about madly. I don't want any of you to go away, nor do I want to see the list so concerned about the correctness of posts that there aren't any (sadly thinking back to that long, dry spell with no index-l). Happy winter solstice, holiday celebrations be merry, take a deep breath and exhale. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chat/humor/steam/publishers and then some... (long) I understand completely why Hazel suggests two indexing lists, and to be honest, if we did move in that direction, I would be very sorry. I think that everyone has something valuable to offer, either professional or personal. I find them both invaluable. As I've said before, I am one of the lonely only's. I'm more isolated than ever before, having just moved to a new city. I depend on Index-L for the human contact. As a professional indexer, I also depend on Index-L for the professional discussions. As a self-taught indexer, I learn constantly from the various threads on the list. I even learn that I need to learn, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I think we would all lose out if we split the list. I didn't join in the humor in indexing and humor in indexing? Not! threads because, like others, I felt it would die down. Like the other indexing professionals, I wouldn't "bomb" and index. Like the other professionals, I have silly moments that never make it into the index, make ludicrous mistakes that sometimes do (and hopefully I've caught them all), and strive to provide as professional a product as possible while battling with all in life that demands attention. And, like others, I do need to let of steam every once and a while. Perhaps, the humor thread went a little far. And, perhaps the anti-humor thread did also. Some of the humor threads suggested a lack of professionalism, and some of the anti-humor threads sounded awfully angry and parental. As silly as we get, we are all adults and don't need to be reprimanded like children. Just a courteous reminder is sufficient and it lets your opinion be known. In all my various jobs, I have found that there are those that are professional and those that are not. I do not think that anyone will generalize about the indexing profession due to a few disturbing remarks. And if others express opinions that disagree with the disturbing remarks, they are assuring the publishers see the "other side." But to start attacking each other, that does demean us as a whole, with neither side appearing terribly professional. But, anger and frustration can also be a way of dealing with the stress of deadlines, holidays etc., just as excessive silliness can. Lord knows, I use both outlets myself. I'm sorry that some publishers read the thread and felt threatened by it. As a copyeditor/ex-in-house production editor, I suppose I would have felt a bit threatened also, in a general sense. Everyone knows that production editors are always squished by deadlines. I always used the analogy that I was the guy with the broom, shovel and dustpan behind the horses in a parade. I had to clean up everybody's mess. And if any got through, I was on the hot seat. But I also knew the indexers that worked with me, and I am confident to this day that they would not have provided me an index with an intentional blooper. I think that the publishers with whom I work are also confident that I would not either. I hope that you publishers out there understand that your indexers are hard-working professionals who sometimes throw their hands up in the air, let their hair down, and get downright ridiculous. In other words, they are human. And, if you come across an indexer who you feel is not professional, by all means, don't use him or her again. And, let them know why. Too often we receive no feedback. If it was an unintentional blooper, the indexer can explain him or herself. You may find it was a misunderstanding that can be worked out and you could create a valuable relationship. And, you may find that this is definately not an indexer you ever want to work with again. Just as I wouldn't return to a doctor I think is unprofessional. In fact, I have refused to work with certain publishers that I feel are unprofessional. But I know that they do not represent the entire industry. That is a weapon we all have, boycott. But, I think you will find that the indexers who don't care about your book and their product are very, very few and far between. The vast majority of us provide a service of which we are very proud and want to work with you to be certain you get the index you want. Goodness, my soapbox has gotten higher and higher. I think I'll jump down while I still can without injury. And now off to deal with a little life distraction. How many of you have been bitten by frustrated preschoolers?? Sincerely Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services or maybe Frankenword (shades of Young Frankenstein) or maybe Frankly Words (UGH!) or maybe Frank Indexing (except I forgot the editorial....) I give up for now. BTW, Hazel, I'm glad it's cold in FL too. I feel there's some balance in the world since I'm dealing with cold weather for the first time in ages. And how about The Hyphenated Word (that works with your hyphen) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:55:54 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: New business name The rebel in me likes Helen's suggestion that the two Anns work together as "True Cross" -- but as we've been discussing here, humor is, at best, in the eye of the beholder, and a few private laughs probably wouldn't make up for the lost work from offended clients... While we're on the subject, I'm trying out a new name myself, and I'd love some feedback from the group. The name I'm looking at is "Indexcellence", although it would probably be attached to my own name : Caroline Parks, Indexcellence. First, I'm hoping that I didn't read it in someone else's post, and then decide I'd made it up myself ;-} So if anyone knows of another indexer who uses the name "Indexcellence", please let me know! (I did do a search on all my saved postings, but I don't know how reliable that is with mail message files.) And second, I just can't quite decide if it's a great name or if it's just a little too cute to take seriously! Does it come too close to the "annoying pun" for comfort? I'd like to think that it effectively associates my name with excellence in indexing, but if it starts out by irritating potential clients and colleagues, I'd rather reconsider now than later! Thanks! private replies are fine. Caroline Parks ( ?? Indexcellence ?? ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:55:54 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Caroline Parks Subject: Re: Ergonomics : chairs For anyone who's in the market for a truly wonderful chair, I highly recommend hunting down the Aeron chair by Herman Miller. The one I purchased several months ago has literally changed my life -- I can spend long hours at the computer with a minimum of back pain and stiffness. It's an unusual chair, incredibly well designed. Rather than traditional upholstery, it consists of a plastic frame with an indestructible skin stretched over it; the salesman said it was a spinoff from the automotive industry, and in a decade or so this is what we'll be sitting on in our cars. It would certainly conserve weight and space, and it is truly the most comfortable surface to sit in; it supports curves and bumps wonderfully while not cutting off circulation anywhere. It comes in three sizes, rather than trying to provide enough adjustment for every body in one chair, so it kind of feels like it was built specially for me! It has all the usual adjustments and then some; it rocks, and the tension is easily adjusted. The pivot point for the rocker is just behind your knees, instead of being under your seat, making for a much more natural motion. And there's a forward-tilt setting, for those intense work modes when you're sitting on the edge of your chair; you can still do that but your back is supported at the same time. And of course it swivels and goes up and down like a dream. I bought the stripped-down version for just under $700. I passed on the arms, which I may decide to add later; they cost at least $200 more. And there's a nifty little lumbar support for $50, that I decided I was quite comfortable without. I think it lists for about 30% more, but this is the "street price". I found it at Goodman's Office Furniture in Albuquerque; I suspect they're a chain, but I seem to remember that Herman Miller has a web page, so you might connect with a local dealer that way also. Happy sitting! Caroline Parks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 15:59:12 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jessica Milstead <76440.2356@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: PASCAL indexing I just returned to this list, so I didn't see the earlier exchange on the Pascal database indexing. However, I don't see that you would encounter many more problems in starting currently and working backwards with retrospective indexing than you do with current indexing. A current index is a work in progress, too, and you encounter changes in scope and vocabulary. The same kinds of changes must be expected in working backward. The primary concern, as you indicate, is to make sure that users are made aware of which years have been indexed. Jessica Milstead voice: 203/740-2433 The JELEM Company fax: 203/740-1152 P.O. Box 5063 76440.2356@compuserve.com 17 Brooks Lane Brookfield, CT 06804 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 08:07:15 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Pam Rider Subject: Re: Chat (long) I applaud Hazel's suggestion for a Chat subject line. This provides a thoughtful means of identifying conversational material. The early "netiquitte" (spelling?) guidelines were especially throughful in requesting that electronic posters be considerate of the time and money budgets of others. Some folks are lucky to have other organizations (educational institutions, corporations) paying for their usage; others pay on their own. Some folks may even still have to pay for each electronic byte that goes into their mailbox (read or not). When volume soars in the conversational, some persons may have to sign off because of time or money restrictions--that's really unfair. Please consider signalling conversation with a "chat" subject line introduction or following up on conversation amongst those interested in an informal off-list mailing group. Pam Rider Trying to walk cheerfully on the Earth prider@powergrid.electriciti.com prider@tsktsk.com http://www.electriciti.com:80/~prider/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: business names Re Friar & Friar -- My association is to Bob Hope and the Friar's Club. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Lawrenc846@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chat (long) >I often come up with the solution to a problem when I'm most >relaxed. Doesn't that happen to a lot of you? For me the time when I got all those innovative ideas is when in my morning (very hot) shower. So I must agree with you. >I've saved and referred to again and again. (I also save >Index-L messages, believe me!).... This is the most >content-rich listserv to which I've ever subscribed, and I've >subscribed to quite a few. Like you I find this list very content rich and worth saving (three disks so far..). >Before more flame wars break out, perhaps we *should* >consider having two lists. One list is fine. One can always delite stuff unwanted. And what "flame war"? So the discussion got a little heated, it didn't (at least for me) get irritating, just interesting. Larry Feldman ******************************************************** Lawrence H. Feldman Post Office Box 2493 Wheaton Maryland 20915-2493 301-933-2616 Lawrenc846@aol.com Indexer - Researcher - Writer ******************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 16:52:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: CHAT: Vacation I'm going away on vacation, so I'll be unsubbing, lest my e-mailbox runneth over in my absence. Hope all of you have very happy holidays! Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "If a cat spoke, it would say things like, 'Hey, I don't see the _problem_ here.'"--Roy Blount, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 17:56:29 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Flaming? Nah, didn't seem like it to me Larry Feldman wrote: >One list is fine. One can always delite stuff unwanted. And what "flame >war"? So the discussion got a little heated, it didn't (at least for me) get >irritating, just interesting. Gotta agree. The discussions didn't seem all *that* heated. I heard from a few of you who either supported what I said or respectfully disagreed. (I was especially happy to read what Leland, I think, had to say -- it was the email that was one long paragraph -- with regard to his experiences as a production editor. The circus and elephants analogy was perfect.) I tried to pass along my publisher thoughts in a pretty upbeat way, without flaming. I made a strong comment against a statement with which I disagreed. But I also found out that a number of you agreed with her comment. But in general, I agree with Larry (and not just because he shares my name!): I didn't get the sense that people were flaming. I expressed my concern over what would happen if humor or the like was included in an index, and also felt like I wanted to support my McGraw-Hill publisher sister (I think we were the only two publisher reps to speak up). But I also indicated that, in general, I wasn't worried that indexers were a bunch of goofoffs, or goofballs, or whatever the word is I used. Hey, it got me out of lurking mode, and that was kinda fun. Nuf said. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 18:33:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Business names OK, I've got an idea. But who knows? If I leave out Frank, then Leslie Leland is always a tongue twister, but what about A Literative Word??? Now that I see it, I'm not sure. Any opinions? I could shorten it, A Literate Word??? Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:03:33 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LINDA SOLOW BLOTNER Subject: Re: Indexing Musical Subjects The New Harvard Dictionary of Music is the standard for music libraries for subjects. Baker's is the standard biographical dictionary. Groves 6th ed. is 20 vols. and available in paperback for about $400. The 7th ed. is in progress. If you are indexing a serious music text, I would recommend one of those volumes first. Linda Solow Blotner Music Librarian The Hartt School University of Hartford West Hartford, CT 06117 blotner@uhavax.hartford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:44:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: word coinages I'm indexing a chapter on Proust in a book of essays on French history. I would like to use: \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) achronologicality Is that too over the top, or should I just stick with: \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) [not chronological] or [lack of chronology] ????? Your comments and suggestions would be welcome. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:24:38 +1300 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Simon Cauchi Subject: word coinages Fred Leise wrote > >Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:44:33 -0500 >From: Locatelli@AOL.COM >Subject: word coinages > >I'm indexing a chapter on Proust in a book of essays on French history. > >I would like to use: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > achronologicality > >Is that too over the top, or should I just stick with: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > [not chronological] or [lack of chronology] ????? I wouldn't recommend "achronologicality". Perhaps something like "non-chronological narration" (or "nonchronological narration", I suppose, in the US) might serve the purpose. Perhaps the terms used in the following quotation might help to suggest something: "[The author] always has complete freedom of time---to start at the end, in the middle, at the beginning, and to leap about with all the illogic of daily life. One of the greates and least recognized of English novels, THE GOOD SOLDIER, by Ford Madox Ford, which is told in the first person, moves so much about in time that it takes a critic several pages simply to put things in their linear order---time thoroughly wasted, needless to say." (Julian Mitchell, _Truth and Fiction_, Covent Garden Press, 1972, pp. 17-18) From Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer 13 Riverview Terrace, Hamilton, New Zealand Telephone and facsimile +64 7 854 9229, e-mail cauchi@wave.co.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 22:47:47 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: Another publisher's opinion on fun with indexes I wish to clarify something I wrote: Rhonda wrote: >>>No doubt some little indexing jokes stem from frustration with the decline >>>of publishing standards -- you can hardly open any kind of book without >>>finding errors... Larry Baker wrote: >The above statement makes it sound like someone >with hands on hips saying, "If you make a mistake, well then I'm going to >make a mistake, too. Ha, ha. and then: >I made a strong comment against a statement with which I disagreed. >But I also found out that a number of you agreed with her comment. I wrote: >This harkens to my ongoing concern that commitment to excellence in >publishing is fading, facets of which I've previously addressed on Index-l. I would not wish anyone to think that I agreed with the first point, which was that indexing "jokes" would/should/do stem from frustration with a decline in publishing standards. I have my own opinions about the sources of what I perceive as a decline, or a threatened decline (which is not universal); I have opined here previously that the rise of desktop publishing created a blip of quality issues related to mass access and to typesetting programs that did not truly set type (they're getting better). I have mused on the effect this has made on indexing practice in the computer industry and elsewhere. BUT, any such decline is certainly *not* an excuse for adding to the chaos, contrary to the point originally made (and the point to which Larry took exception). Again, it is my opinion that a professional does not seek to make excuses for mediocrity, nor participate in it, but roots it out wherever she or he may find it to the degree that she or he is empowered to do so. Could we please bow to experience and end this discussion in favor of a no-"jokes" policy in indexes except where explicitly agreed to? And further stipulate that proofreading errors in printed books are no excuse for indexers inserting what are dubiously being referred to as jokes? Flame on if you will, I am perplexed, and remain so, Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 02:17:12 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: word coinages In a message dated 96-12-04 23:48:21 EST, you write: << \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) achronologicality >> Fred, I would not use achronologicality. As a previous lit student (Oh if only I would finish that MA thesis, she moans) and as an indexer, I would greatly prefer to see something in the lines of \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) lack of chronology in, or \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) lack of chronological narration in, Hope this helps, Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 23:27:32 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Victoria Baker Subject: Re: word coinages >I would like to use: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > achronologicality > >Is that too over the top...? If, by your subject line, I should take it that you are coining the term, then I agree with Simon to avoid it. However, if the essayist uses the term, and its use in the index is not contraindicated by other terms used by the author, I would use it, while looking for an opportunity to explicate the term somewhere in the index, perhaps at a term "chronologicality," if appropriate. If the term is used only once and chronologicality is not an ongoing issue, then of course it wouldn't warrant that much attention. It seems to me that the English language is beginning to incorporate more of those kinds of words about states of being about states of being (as I think of them), which some other languages contain. I tend to like them, even if they are arcane. They do carry a specific meaning. The question, though, is whether the audience is prepared for them--at this point in time, I think, only if they are used by the author (some of whom are deliberately avoiding such terms in their writing). Best, Victoria Baker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Recognition for indexers Hello everyone, I've just had an intriguing conversation with an author for whom I am writing an index. He has asked me to specify how I would like to be recognized in the published book. His suggestion has been some sort of footnote, so I'm thinking a footnote on the first page of the index would be fine. However, the author has also asked that I let 'be sure to think about it,' and let him know my preferences, as he'd like this to be part of my normal distribution process. In the past, I have received recognition in the Acknowledgments or similar preface-type sections. I have also received title-page recognition. But I think I like the idea of recognition at the index itself. Any other thoughts?! Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:02:49 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Recognition for indexers I've too have been named in the Acknowledgements of books--and any acknowledgement is bettter than none!-- but if I had my druthers I'd like be acknowledged by name on the first page of the index, as in "Index by Laura Moss Gottlieb." What do the rest of you think? --Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 08:10:26 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Benson Subject: Re: Business name Some years ago when I decided to work for myself as a writer and computer consultant a friend of mine suggested a bit facetiously that I use all my last names. He said, "That way if you want to think about a contract you can say I'll consult with my partners and get back to you." So, I am a sole proprietor doing business as Sweeney, Benson, Berry, and Benson. Born Sweeney, married Benson and established my career reputation as Benson, divorced, five years later married Berry, divorced and went back to the Benson name. I like being at the top of the alphabet as Benson. Amex offered my "firm" a corporate gold card which I took primarily because one of the benefits is disability insurance. Logo - I have a woodstove in the shape of a dragon. Soon after I bought Ronald (named by the ironsmith who created the stove after Ronald Reagan) I had a pen and ink drawing done. I use that drawing as my logo on stationery, postcards, and mailing labels. My significant other and grandfather of my grandchildren is frequently called Mr. Benson (should be Mr. Martin). Most of the time he doesn't care or bother to correct the person. I have found that since my business name does not specify exactly what I do, I don't have to think up a new name when I add or change a service. And, I doubt anybody else will have the same business name. Well, time to feed the dragon. Carol Benson Sweeney, Benson, Berry and Benson RD 3 Box 560 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:27:09 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers In-Reply-To: <849800545.514524.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com> In message <849800545.514524.0@vms.dc.lsoft.com>, "Laura M. Gottlieb" writes >I've too have been named in the Acknowledgements of books--and any >acknowledgement is bettter than none!-- but if I had my druthers I'd like be >acknowledged by name on the first page of the index, as in "Index by Laura >Moss Gottlieb." What do the rest of you think? >--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer Well, here is my two-penniworth: I have sometimes had my name printed at the top of indexes, which I found completely OK. But some large publishers seem to prefer to include my name as Indexer or 'Indexed by' on a page in the prelims which contains the names of Editors (publishers's ones, that is) and other important 'ancillary' people. This seems satisfactory to me, too. With smaller books, I really do not mind. Occasionally, the author/editor actually includes the indexer among acknowledgements at the end of the Introduction or Foreword. This is rather pleasant, and shows that the author/editor has some human feelings - or has he/she been got at by the publisher, or a spouse? It doesn't bother me - I just like being said to be appreciated. By the way, can anyone interpret "druthers" for an ignorant European? Betty Moys ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:24:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers Pilar, Laura, I have one client who routinely acknowledges the indexer right at the top of the first index page. Their style is to put the word "Index" flush left at the top, and then a few lines below it, flush right, to put "Prepared by"{new line} "Indexer's Name", so it's in nice large type. I trust this publisher not to make substantive changes to my indexes, so I am comfortable with that arrangement. A caution, though. Having your name on an index is a two-edged sword. If it is a product you are pleased with and which has gone through the publisher's office basically intact, that is fine. But if the publisher is going to reserve the right to shorten or change the index substantively, or if that is the publisher's usual practice, then I wouldn't want my name on the index unless I had seen the final product and OK'd it, which is unlikely to happen. This is a question of diminishing the risk of having my name on an index which was changed/shortened/condensed in a way that I would not have done it. Then it is no longer my work, and I would not want my name on it. A question for the legal minds out there .... does having your name acknowledged that way change the Work for Hire arrangement in any way, or create a different situation as far as assignment of rights? Just wondering about that. Something to find out about before making that acknowledgment standard practice. An interesting question, Pilar, Janet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:24:49 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers Druthers means "free choice" or "preference," according to my ancient version of the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. It is apparently dialect. Does anyone have the OED and can tell us more about the origins of the word? At 05:27 PM 12/5/96 +0000, Elizabeth M. Moys wrote: >By the way, can anyone interpret "druthers" for an ignorant European? > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:40:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: druthers The Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary states for druthers: pl. of druther, alteration of would rather. Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: http://www.ciesin.org ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Thu, 5 Dec 1996, Cynthia D. Bertelsen wrote: > Druthers means "free choice" or "preference," according to my ancient > version of the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. It is apparently > dialect. Does anyone have the OED and can tell us more about the origins of > the word? > > At 05:27 PM 12/5/96 +0000, Elizabeth M. Moys wrote: > > >By the way, can anyone interpret "druthers" for an ignorant European? > > > > ************ > > Cynthia D. Bertelsen > INDEXER > Blacksburg, VA > cbertel@nrv.net > http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 13:45:40 -0400 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Topher Cooper Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers I associate "druthers" with Southern US dialects, though it may be more widespread than that. (There is, in fact, a song in the Musical "Li'l Abner" called "If I Had My Druthers" (I druther have my druthers, than anything else I know."). It is a dialectic pronunciation of a contraction of "would rather". Topher ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:12:31 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WordenDex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: word coinages Fred, My vote would be to start the subhead with the topic, such as \iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) chronology absent in Diane Worden Kalamazoo, Mich. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:35:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sam Andrusko Subject: Re: Druthers, origin of In-Reply-To: <199612051827.NAA135486@rs8.loc.gov> Hello, everyone, I checked the Websters 3rd International and it agreed with what what I assumed was the origin: "druthers" is a noun derived from the corruption of the phrase: "would rather," as in I would rather go fishing or I'd rather go fishing, etc.--"drather" to "druther." Am sure there is a linguistic term for such a process. Sam Andrusko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:47:02 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elizabeth M. Moys" Subject: Druthers Hi there! Many thanks to all the people who have already explained 'druthers' to me. You are supposed to learn something new every day - I hope this will serve as my duty for today! I am amazed at how quickly this has happened. I posted my little thought while my dinner was cooking, and now, while I wait for a cup of coffee to cool down here are replies for all you kind people! Thanks again, Betty ==================================================================== Elizabeth M. Moys email: betty@moys.demon.co.uk Phone & Fax: +44 (0)1959-534530 Hengist, Badgers Road, Badgers Mount, Sevenoaks, Kent, TN14 7AT, England ==================================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 14:49:38 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: Recognition for indexers J. Perlman's point--that one would want one's name attached to a published index only if the index were published as the indexer submitted it--is well-taken! I've certainly had indexes I sent in massacred by the time they were published! Thanks for the reminder, Janet!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer Laura Moss Gottlieb Freelance Indexer 212 Highland Avenue Madison, Wisconsin 53705 (608) 233-4559 pgottlie@facstaff.wisc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:26:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: "Green, being"/"Loops, eternal" Hi Pilar: I appreciated your inclusion of "Kermity Frog", as my kids used to call him when they were little, and his song "It's not easy being green" and, by implication, Ray Charles too--all in your contribution to the humor thread. The mere evocation of the song warms my heart. (Do you know whether it has been recorded on an album?) Of course Kermit and song, as discussed in your book, belong in the index. Re your proposed heading "green, being", I think it's too broad because it can be taken to refer to lack of experience, environmental stances, party politics, and probably a number of other things besides skin color. How 'bout "green, ease of being" instead (meaning, of course, the whole spectrum from easy to difficult)--and since that really won't do for all who don't know the song, how 'bout "green (skin color), being" and "skin color, being green"? I think your point that "There is a difference between finding humor in our work and inserting humor into our work" frames the question about humor in indexes very well and would make a fine practical guideline, if "work" is taken to mean the material we index. On the other hand, I think the example you give of "eternal loops. _See_ loops, eternal", etc., though undeniably delightful, is over the line simply because it's a case of inserting humor that's not to be found in the text. Thanks, Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:34:23 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Michael Brackney Subject: Re: word coinages At 11:44 PM 12/4/96 -0500, Fred Leise wrote: >I'm indexing a chapter on Proust in a book of essays on French history. > >I would like to use: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > achronologicality > >Is that too over the top, or should I just stick with: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > [not chronological] or [lack of chronology] ????? > Fred: Like Victoria and presumably you too, I appreciate the specificity of the term you propose, but it's just too contrived and awkward for me. Like Diane, I much prefer to begin a subheading with the main keyword, but I don't see a good way of doing it in this case. Together with only a few other subs Leslie's "lack of chronologicality" would do fine, but I like Simon's "non-chronological narration" or "nonchronological narration" a little better because "non" seems like a more natural slot than "lack of" for this negation. But if the discussion is not extensive--and maybe even if it is--you might not need the specific term at all, in which case you could step back and try something like "narrative structure" or even simply "structure" instead. Michael Brackney Indexing Service 134 Kathleen Way Grass Valley, CA 95945 916-272-7088 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:51:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers In a message dated 96-12-05 13:36:16 EST, Janet wrote: > I trust this publisher not to make substantive changes to my indexes, so I am > comfortable with that arrangement. A caution, though. Having your name on > an index is a two-edged sword. If it is a product you are pleased with and > which has gone through the publisher's office basically intact, that is fine. Janet, Wonderful point, Janet! I'd like to take this opportunity to knit this thread with the one that everyone wants to die... the humor in indexes thread. After I submitted an index to a software manual, the client(!) inserted in the index: Product name (to protect the guilty ;-D) no exit. See loops, infinite loops, infinite. See Product name, no exit And my name was in the book!!!!!!! (This company puts everyone's names together in the front of the manual, including those of the software engineers, without identifying who did what. So, at least, it was sort of anonymous. However, another indexer noticed my name in another manual I indexed for this company, having purchased the product. So there's theoretically a bit of danger of being mistaken as the culprit there if the client played yet another prank in one of my indexes. ;-D) If I'd had my druthers (to knit in yet another thread here), I would not have done that myself, as I'm not in favor of playing pranks on the users of my product as much as I personally love humor. It was bad enough that I nearly had a heart attack when I spotted it in the published index, fearing I had somehow managed to create a circular cross-reference that escaped the editing process, before the joke dawned on me. Two-edged sword is right... I nearly fell on mine that day. ;-D Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: wgm@sageline.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: William Meisheid Organization: Sageline Publishing Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers Cynthia D. Bertelsen wrote: > > Druthers means "free choice" or "preference," according to my ancient version of the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. It is apparently dialect. Does anyone have the OED and can tell us more about the origins of the word? Cynthia, My 1971 OED doesn't show the word, nor does my Etymological Dictionary of Modern English. However, my online American Heritage has the following note: (George F. Will). [Alteration of the phrase 'd rather, from would rather.] I hope that helps a little -- William Meisheid "Thoughts still and always in progress" Certified RoboHELP Training WUGNET/Hypertext Technologies sysop on Compuserve Sageline Publishing www.sageline.com wgm@sageline.com 410.465.1548 Fax: 410.744.2456 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 17:22:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Green, being"/"Loops, eternal" Michael Brackney Brackney Indexing Service Grass Valley, CA 95945 Michael, Thanks for the feedback and support. I was beginning to wonder if I'd been talking into the wind ...! 'Green' in the book I was working on was in reference to the 'green movement' and environmental protection. I think my entries ended up being "Green movement, 163; GOP assault on, 197" or something like that. And yes, "Kermit the Frog, 163" also went in the index! As to "Loops, eternal. See Eternal loops" I didn't mean to be cute or circuitous--I'm assuming that the discussion of eternal loops was substantive and that the discussion might best be listed under E vs L. Certainly, depending on how much discussion there is (not), doubleposting vs crossreferencing might also be in order. Happy indexing, Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:44:12 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: Business names >OK, I've got an idea. But who knows? If I leave out Frank, then Leslie Leland >is always a tongue twister, but what about A Literative Word??? Now that I >see it, I'm not sure. Any opinions? I could shorten it, A Literate Word??? >Leslie >Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services It's catchy but doesn't identify what you do. Your business could be book reviewing, a book store, teaching people how to read . . . Have you already considered just shortening what you have to Frank Editorial Services? Sorry if you already mentioned that. Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 18:44:21 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Carol Roberts Subject: Re: word coinages >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > achronologicality > >Is that too over the top, or should I just stick with: > >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) > [not chronological] or [lack of chronology] ????? > Fred, I assume this is your word coinage and not the author's? I wouldn't use that word. Aside from the sort of ad hoc sound to it, the word as a whole is such a mouthful. I couldn't make it out right away, because I wanted to read it as achron-ologicality; I didn't read the "a" as a prefix. So I would opt for either "lack of chronology" of "chronology lacking in" (if that's what you meant). Cheers, Carol Roberts, indexer and copy editor | I'm not into working out. My Carol.Roberts@mixcom.com | philosophy: No pain, no pain. Milwaukee, WI | -- Carol Leifer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 19:43:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: GVHatch@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers I thought it was interesting that Janet brought up caution when it comes to having your name acknowledged with your index. I was going to ask the list about this very problem just a couple of days ago. I received my complimentary copy of a book I indexed with my name in the acknowledgments and I had a heart attack when I saw the changes that were made to my index!!! I was so excited when they offered to acknowledge me, now I wish my name were not attached. :-( I guess I should have offered to be a resource if they needed anything major changed, but knowing what a tight time-frame they had, I'm sure they wouldn't have used me anyway. Does anyone have a solution? How do you deal with getting credit when you're not very familiar with the publisher and don't know if the index will be printed intact? Thanks! Gaylene Hatch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:31:36 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: MrsIndex@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Business names >>Have you already considered just shortening what you have to Frank Editorial Services? Sorry if you already mentioned that.<< That sounds to me like editors who will come right out and say "Boy, your manuscript really stinks!!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:54:32 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: word coinages Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to use "non-chronological narrative." Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI IS Committee ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 20:47:26 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Laura M. Gottlieb" Subject: regionalisms As the person who (inadvertently) started the thread on "druthers," I thought I'd call your attention to a set of reference-works-in-progress which would probably fully address the meaning, background, and use of this word: _The Dictionary of American Regional English_ (or DARE). I think the third volume may be coming out soon, but the first volume (containing A-D, I believe) was out in 1985 or so. Most university libraries probably carry it. It's a great resource for regionalisms in the US. If I had a copy at hand (or even nearby), I'd look up "druthers" and see what *it* says about it!--Laura Moss Gottlieb, Freelance Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Business names In a message dated 96-12-05 20:36:03 EST, you write: << >>Have you already considered just shortening what you have to Frank Editorial Services? Sorry if you already mentioned that.<< That sounds to me like editors who will come right out and say "Boy, your manuscript really stinks!!" >> I never thought about that! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I was considering it. As a promotional line I could say something like, "Frank editorial services. We hope you have a tough hide." Back to the drawing board. Leslie of some type of some kind of service ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Business names Carol's comment about A Literate Word/A Literative Word is that I'm unidentified. How 'bout if I use one of them and then underneath on card, brochure, etc. put "editing and indexing." Any opinions? And which is perferred. (Yes, I caught the typo, but after the regionalisms thread, I left it in for a kick.) Leslie Leland no Frank The end-all of alliteration BTW, have any of you heard of Frank Leslie, the magazine publisher. I wish more had, because I could play on that. He published a magazine around WW I entitled Leslie's. I happen to have a few covers framed. And as a real aside, if any of you come across any in antique shops, etc., I'd love to hear about it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 03:36:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers I have been recognized as copyeditor and indexer and production editor in various parts of books. Initially, in-house HBJ, we inserted everyone into the acknowledgements. Then we used a page in the front matter for the acknowledgements. I am sorry to say that we did not acknowledge freelancers, including indexers. Only in-house people. With small publishers, I have not been acknowledged, to my knowledge:D, but I have come across all encompassing acknowledgements at the end of the book with software documentation publishing. The fact that I do not know more is due to the fact that most of my publishers have cut costs by not supplying anyone with books. So I often don't see my published index or any other part of the book published. I recently did an index for a book according the author's instructions and made the publisher swear that I would not be acknowledged in any way. I had agreed to do it before seeing all the author's "points," and felt obligated to do the job. But I would not tell anyone what book it is, ever! It is wise to have some concern about acknowledgements. I have never had an index "massacred" after the fact (that I know of), but it is certainly worth thinking about. And, to be honest, when in house, I saw one editor just slash an index by a pretty well-reputed indexer. I'm not sure if she ever saw the finished copy or what he did to her index. I'm sure he did the same to other indexes, and others may have also. Thanks for the warning. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 04:31:58 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Christine Shuttleworth <106234.1745@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Business names Carol wrote: Have you (Leslie) already considered just shortening what you have to Frank Editorial Services? Leslie: My late husband's name was Frank and he had his own business (nothing to do with indexing - he was in the building trade). At one point, at my suggestion, he traded under the name of Frank Services. I thought this was very clever, and would suggest honesty and reliability to his clients. But a friend of ours thought it was hilarious. To her, it sounded like the sort of business that sent out literature in plain brown wrappers. It had never occurred to me that the name would suggest something of a dubious nature. Yet this was the woman who advertised for a rocking-horse (for her small son) and couldn't understand why she got obscene phone calls. You never know how people's minds will work. For Ann Truesdale, however, why not just True Indexing? This to me would imply accuracy and reliability, and also suggest that it was the real thing, as opposed to phoney indexing. Now, can anyone see anything wrong with that? Christine Christine Shuttleworth Indexing and Editorial Services Flat 1, 25 St Stephen's Avenue London W12 8JB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 07:19:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Marie-Lise Shams Subject: Re: word coinages In-Reply-To: <9612060045.AB23788@ciesin.org> Just a quick question, why is the title entered: >\iRecherche du temps perdu, A la\I (Proust) and not: A la recherche du temps perdu (Proust) I think the majority of the readers who know French will look for this title under A not R. The title in cataloging is "A la Recherche du Temps Perdu", and not "Recherche du Temps Perdu". Just wandering. Marie-Lise ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Marie-Lise Shams ^ ^ Information Specialist ^ ^ Consortium for International Earth ^ ^ Science Information Network (CIESIN) ^ ^ 2250 Pierce Road ^ ^ University Center Michigan 48710 ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ Phone: +1-517-797-2790 ^ ^ Fax: +1-517-797-2622 ^ ^ E-mail: mshams@ciesin.org ^ ^ URL: http://www.ciesin.org ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:06:34 +0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JOYCE NESTER Subject: Re: Fun in indexes? NOT!! At 09:22 PM 12/2/96 -0500, Janet wrote: >With the posting from the McGraw-Hill editor, our thread on fun in indexes >has gone full circle. Thank you, Janet, for finally saying what most of us have probably been thinking. > Now we've heard the other side. Those of you who >found this thread funny have now got the publishers wondering how many of us >are serious about our indexing. That's what I was afraid of, and it isn't >funny any more. >For all those publishers reading Index-L .... Many of us take our indexing >businesses very seriously, and do not agree with the opinions expressed here >about fun in indexes. For some reason, my colleagues are not posting to this >board right now, leaving the (mistaken) impression that most indexers agree >with the fun-makers in the group. Not so, at all. Is it possible that list members have hesitated to comment on this thread because they don't relish the possibility of being flamed? As many of you wil remember, I was recently royally roasted for asking that purely personal posts be kept off list. The threat is no doubt intimidating. If there can't be an honest, reasonable and fair exchange of important questions and ideas on this list, it has lost most of it's value. If we can't disagree without fear of being misrepresented and publically embarrassed, then all is lost. Janet is not stodgy or negative. I think she has an excellent point and it is one that needs to be taken seriously. The vast majority of the members of this list are striving to make indexing recognized as the professional business that it is. It wouldn't hurt any of us to stop and reflect as to whether our posts further that goal. Please remember, any list memeber who has something to discuss that is not of general interest to the practice of indexing will be doing their colleagues a courtesy if they take their conversations off the list. We will appreciate it sincerely. If anyone wants to flame me for this, please send those messages directly to me. Bring 'em on. Joyce Nester nester@vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:30:23 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Recognition for indexers In a message dated 96-12-06 03:39:12 EST, Leslie wrote: << in-house HBJ, we inserted everyone into the acknowledgements. Then we used a page in the front matter for the acknowledgements. I am sorry to say that we did not acknowledge freelancers, including indexers. Only in-house people. >> Leslie, This is the same response I've gotten in the past when I asked to be included with the others being acknowledged in the front matter. I wonder if this is an industry-wide practice? It is disheartening to hear about our indexes being so slaughtered such that we have to decide wether we want to be acknowledged for our original pains. I don't have an answer. I would like to think that an editor would discuss with us any proposed changes before they are made. But since, in the back-of-the-book busines at least, we are generally work-for-hire, such practices may not apply. [I do wonder how book authors feel when their work is improved upon or otherwise worked on by editors. They still get credit, but neither are they work-for-hire.] PS: Thanks to those who have responded to me privately on this. Consensus seems to be for the verso section, albeit reserved for in-house staff. Other good suggestions have been for something, perhaps in smaller type, on the first page of the index. Happy Holidays, Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 09:57:18 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Work-for-hire Authors Pilar Wyman said: >[I do wonder how book authors feel when their work is improved upon or >otherwise worked on by editors. They still get credit, but neither are they >work-for-hire.] Just a brief note to say that, at least at the publisher for whom I work, most authors *are* work-for-hire. To put it in its simplest form, authors who come to us with an idea (or finished product) hold the copyright and, therefore, receive royalties. Authors we have hired to handle a product that was conceived by us or by librarians, advisors, etc., are still usually work-for-hires. I work in the reference publishing business which, in this aspect, might be different from other types of publishing. Not surprisingly, authors come in all shapes and sizes. Some authors hate when we change the word "a" to "the," some authors work well with a back-and-forth-between-editor-and-author approach, and some authors run out of steam and relative interest by the time we get to the production stage. My publisher persona says I'd prefer the middle author all the time; my human persona admits that if it were *always* like that, it would probably make my job less interesting. Re: indexers, I've worked with great ones and not-so-great ones. Fortunately, schedules have worked so that the top notch, ever-conscientious indexers are usually available. Result: rarely are substantive changes necessary. Simple as that. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Bob Huerster Subject: Wired magazine Some time ago, someone posted a link to a document including Nancy Mulvaney's reply to an article in Wired magazine. The Wired article dealt with indexing and the Web. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of Nancy's letter to Wired? Thanks. Bob Huerster (huerster@panix.com) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:24:28 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Truesdale Subject: Re: Business names LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > Any opinions? I could shorten it, A Literate Word??? > Leslie > Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services Makes -illiterate- come to my mind, unfortunately. -- Ann Truesdale "The tenacity of a habit is usually in proportion to its absurdity." Marcel Proust ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Work for hire According to Nancy Mulvany's reading of the copyright laws (and I happen to agree with her), the copyright for works created by an independent contractor resides with that individual, UNLESS a specific agreement to create a work-for-hire has been signed. Therefore, if we really wanted to raise a ruckus, we could tell publishers that they had to receive our permission first before changing anything in the index, as we retained the copyright. (Just as the publisher must obtain the author's OK if the author retains the copyright. That would certainly be interesting. Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI-IS Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:13:09 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Incexers: Royalty or Work-for-hire Just curious: Are there a fair number of indexers out there whose indexing contracts are royalty-based? Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:14:53 EDT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing Subject: Incexers: Royalty or Work-for-hire Incexers. See also Indexers. Larry Baker Gale Research Larry_Baker@gale.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 17:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Mary D. Taffet" Subject: Re: Wired magazine In-Reply-To: <199612061516.KAA01141@mailbox.syr.edu> It just so happens that I got a paper back today which includes that link in the bibliography. Mulvany's response: http://www.mnsinc.com/curr/nanindex.htm Original article: http://www.hotwired.com/wired/4.05/features/indexweb.html (I am a graduate student who wrote a paper on indexing the WWW for an Indexing and Abstracting class at Syracuse University). I hope this helps. -- Mary Taffet On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Bob Huerster wrote: > Some time ago, someone posted a link to a document including Nancy > Mulvaney's reply to an article in Wired magazine. The Wired article > dealt with indexing and the Web. Does anyone know where I can get a > copy of Nancy's letter to Wired? Thanks. Bob Huerster > (huerster@panix.com) > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:23:38 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Clifford Urr Subject: Re: Wired magazine Bob, you can get that article from my web site, which is where it first appeared for wide distribution. Go to: http://www.mnsinc.com/curr/ From my home page, click onto the link that refers to articles - you'll see a page that lists article titles. Scan the list and you'll see Nancy's article listed, which you can click to. Cliff Urr curr@mnsinc.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:17:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: unavailable mail Is there anyone else out there who received a mailing from anntrue@IXNETCO that is unopenable. I received the email, but when I try to open it, I get a message reading unavailable at this time. The subject line is business names. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:31:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Joan Stout Subject: Recognition of indexers In-Reply-To: <199612060513.AA04982@lamb.sas.com> from "Automatic digest processor" at Dec 6, 96 00:03:11 am Janet wrote: > I trust this publisher not to make substantive changes to my indexes, > so I am comfortable with that arrangement. A caution, though. Having > your name on an index is a two-edged sword. If it is a product you > are pleased with and which has gone through the publisher's office > basically intact, that is fine. But if the publisher is going to > reserve the right to shorten or change the index substantively, or if > that is the publisher's usual practice, then I wouldn't want my name > on the index unless I had seen the final product and OK'd it, which > is unlikely to happen. I have been burned on this one, and I am still not over it! I have diabetes, and there is a book about insulin pumps that I use on a regular basis. The index is terrible. I happened to see a post on a mailing list from the lead author of the book, and I asked him if he planned to do a new edition of the book. I told him how valuable the book is to me, and I explained that it would be even more valuable if it had a good index. He confirmed my suspicion that the authors had indexed it at the last minute. I pointed out some of the changes I would make in the index. He later told me that he was writing a new book about diabetes, and I offered to index it for free, simply because I wanted the book to have a useful index. After some correspondence (including my resume), we came up with an agreement. I received two copies of the book and about $20 worth of other products, but no money. When he asked if I wanted to be listed in the acknowledgments, I told him I would like to be listed there only if he used my index exactly as I sent it to him. If he made any changes to it, I did not want my name listed. I'm sure you can see this coming! My index was absolutely butchered, and now my name is in that book, giving me credit for that horrible index! I complained by e-mail to the author, but he never sent a reply. At a recent diabetes conference, I met a man who had read the book and realized that I was the indexer. I told him what happened, and he said he was happy to know that because he thought it was a terrible index. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. Furthermore, the author included a quote from me in his book for marketing purposes. Now he has a catalog of diabetes books, and he is using my quote in the catalog. I certainly learned my lesson this one. :-( Joan Stout sasjcs@unx.sas.com (day job) jstout@mindspring.com (nights and weekends job AKA home) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 20:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: locators for continuous discussion How would you give the locators for the following situation: discussions begins on bottom of page 1, and continues on top of page 3. Page 2 is a full-page illustration. topic, 1-3 or topic, 1, 3 ? Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI-IS Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: locators for continuous discussion If the discussion is a continued discussion and not two separate "mini" discussions, I would use 1-3. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:37:59 -0600 Reply-To: inewby@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Ilana M. Newby" Subject: Re: locators for continuous discussion I encounter this a lot. For me, it depends on how many locators there are for the heading. If I have a string of more than five locators and as long as the illustration applies I'll use topic, 1-3. On the other hand, if there are only one or two locators I'll use topic 1, 3. However, if the illustration does not apply to the heading then I'll use topic 1, 3 I'm interested in hearing what other people do. Ilana Kingsley http://www.prairienet.org/~inewby libkings@cml.indstate.edu > How would you give the locators for the following situation: > > discussions begins on bottom of page 1, and continues on top of page > 3. Page 2 is a full-page illustration. > > topic, 1-3 > > or > > topic, 1, 3 Fred Leise "Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI-IS Committee ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 22:51:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Locatelli@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Incexers: Royalty or Work-for-hire Per page rate. Fred Leise "Between the Lines Indexing and Editorial Services Chair, ASI-IS Committee ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 05:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Cynthia D. Bertelsen" Subject: Re: locators for continuous discussion I also generally follow the same criteria as Ilana does. If the illustration is about the topic, I tend to include the illustration in the page ranges and (if the publisher wants illustrations noted separately) I will add a separate locator for the illustration. In that case, I add the letter f in italics to denote figures or illustrations. If the material is a table, I use t in italics. (If the book contains many different types of illustrations, like pie graphs, etc., I just use the letter f and no other distinguishing letters.) So the final heading may look like: topic, 1-3, 2f, 10-15, etc. or topic, 1-3, 2t, 10-15 It is also possible to do it like topic 1, 2f, 3 but that just seems awkward to me and actually creates more locators. The user gets more out of this than if there is just "topic, 1-3" or "topic, 1, 3". It is also possible to italicize the page number for the illustration and leave out the f or t. This method cuts down on space, by the way, and may be preferable in an index with limited space. Mulvany (1994), page 95, says that illustrations may also be given subheads if the book is heavily illustrated. Otherwise, using annotated locators in this type of case could create a dense and "busy" looking index. Of course, an introductory note at the beginning of the index is necessary for explanation of all special treatment of locators. At 09:37 PM 12/6/96 -0600, Ilana M. Newby wrote: >I encounter this a lot. For me, it depends on how many locators >there are for the heading. If I have a string of more than five >locators and as long as the illustration applies I'll use >topic, 1-3. > >On the other hand, if there are only one or two locators I'll use >topic 1, 3. > >However, if the illustration does not apply to the heading then I'll >use topic 1, 3 > >I'm interested in hearing what other people do. > >Ilana Kingsley >http://www.prairienet.org/~inewby >libkings@cml.indstate.edu > >> How would you give the locators for the following situation: >> >> discussions begins on bottom of page 1, and continues on top of page >> 3. Page 2 is a full-page illustration. >> >> topic, 1-3 >> >> or >> >> topic, 1, 3 > >Fred Leise >"Between the Lines" Indexing and Editorial Services >Chair, ASI-IS Committee > > > ************ Cynthia D. Bertelsen INDEXER Blacksburg, VA cbertel@nrv.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 07:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WMacallen@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unavailable mail I've also had problems getting mail from aol recently (from aol). For instance, this morning, I went in and was told mail was unavailble. When I went in a second time, I got it. Does anyone else have a similar problem or is it just me? And does anyone know why this might happen--whether aol is just busy or whether there are technical problems? I'm just curious. Willa MacAllen WMacallen@aol.com A sometimes frustrated, addicted online user ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 08:20:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Prakash Capen Subject: Re: unavailable mail It's not just you Willa. I'm also having this problem with aol. Frustrating, isn't it? Prakash Capen Editor/Indexer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:34:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: PilarW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexers: Royalty or Work-for-hire In a message dated 96-12-06 18:37:02 EST, Larry_Baker@GALE.COM (Larry Baker/GRI/International Thomson Publishing) wrote: << Are there a fair number of indexers out there whose indexing contracts are royalty-based? >> Larry, Oftentimes the fee for my indexing services is deducted from author royalties. --So some authors tell me, and so I can see on some of the 1099's I get. That's the closest I know of to any of my contracts being royalty-based. Is this what you mean? Pilar Wyman Indexing Annapolis, MD Tel/Fax: 410-263-7537 Email: PilarW@aol.com "What is indexing?" -----> http://www.well.com/user/asi/indfaq.htm "An index a day keeps the phone calls away ..., " Jan Wright, Wright Information Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 09:56:57 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: unavailable mail At 08:20 AM 12/7/96 -0500, you wrote: >It's not just you Willa. I'm also having this problem with aol. > Frustrating, isn't it? Don't forget that AOL just started its "unlimited use" pricing program on 12/1. Traffic is probably much higher than before. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 13:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unavailable mail/AOL Dick, You gave precisely my response. I have noticed difficulties since the day the new pricing policy started. I think all AOL users should be sending in comments to member services asking what is being done to handle the change in traffic. I know I am going to. BTW, I ended up deleting that particular piece of mail. Although I have been able to open up every other piece of email, for some reason that one was never available. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 14:35:41 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unavailable mail/AOL Friends, I just got done voicing my complaint to American Online's Member Services about the service difficulties that have cropped up since AOL's 12/1 changeover to unlimited time for the monthly fee. This is the only way we can (hopefully) create change -- so voice your feelings loudly to member services if you've been having a problem retrieving your mail or even getting online, as I have. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 15:24:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jennifer Rowe Subject: Re: AOL After twenty minutes waiting online and forty minutes waiting on the phone, I've managed to convey my concerns about service to AOL. Still, I'm debating whether I'll continue to use them. I do like the indexing folders, and I do have 500 business cards with my AOL address to use up; on the other hand, there are many people, like my sister, a computer-programming type, who positively curl their lips at the mention of the name. And there's the uneven, impersonal, generally unsatisfactory service of late. My question to you is, what's the best address for an indexer? Do many publishers have an AOL account, making it worthwhile to maintain one for ease of transferring files? Is being able to check e-mail while travelling around the country a big asset? Are there other factors I haven't thought of? I'd appreciate your thoughts. If this isn't sufficiently index-related for the list, feel free to respond privately. Jenny Rowe Rowe Indexing Services jenrowe@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:18:55 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AOL Jenny, I have two primary reasons why I use AOL. The first is transfer of files. Many of my indexing and editing clients use AOL, and so I can get stuff to them easily and quickly. That means I can work til the wee hours, send a file, and know they will have it first thing in the morning. The other reason is, it seems with my husband's new job, we may be moving a bit. With AOL, I can keep my email address the same instead of changing local servers everytime I move. I am also considering getting a "500" number that goes with me wherever. That way, my clients can always dial the same number and reach me wherever I may be, Sacramento (sadly), San Diego (hopefully), Green Bay (please never!) Just my reasons. Leslie Leslie Leland Frank Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 16:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: AOL At 03:24 PM 12/7/96 -0500, you wrote: > >My question to you is, what's the best address for an indexer? I have three accounts: AOL, CompuServe, and Mindspring. I have reduced my AOL billing to the bare minimum: $4.65 per month. The only thing keeping me there is the CINDEX tech support folder and the occasional visit to the indexing folder. I have CompuServe because Norton and Lotus have tech support boards there and the account only costs $10 per month. Everything else I do on Mindspring. It costs me $27.95 per month, of which $8.00 is space for a web page. Another advantage of mindspring was that I could use my business name (Infodex) as a screen name. That name was taken on AOL. I do not have e-mail printed on my business cards. Instead, I have had rubber stamps made as I changed accounts and stamped my current addres on a handful of cards at a time. > Do many >publishers have an AOL account, making it worthwhile to maintain one for ease >of transferring files? I have publishers with AOL accounts, but I have had no trouble attaching files to e-mail and sending them from mindspring. I also deliver some files via FTP and, last I looked, AOL did not support FTP uploads. >Is being able to check e-mail while travelling around >the country a big asset? Yes and no. On the surface, it sounds like a neat idea but I have not found much benefit from it. Dragging a laptop around and setting it up to run from a remote location can be more trouble than it's worth. I took my ThinkPad to Denver for the ASI conference and there was no hookup in the room. Also, any mail you check from your remote computer ends up on the remote hard disk and you have to somehow consolidate your files on your desktop machine. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 14:09:14 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Roberta Horowitz Subject: Re: AOL In-Reply-To: <199612072027.MAA15090@mail6> You might want to try for a national IPS provider let ATT, Netcom etc which have access numbers across the US. For Netcom there are 2 version one is a basic shell account for email and there full Internet version. I find having the basic shell account for email is handy as I don't get busy signals and I can just pick up my mail and leave. Roberta Horowitz roberta@netcom.com On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Jennifer Rowe wrote: > After twenty minutes waiting online and forty minutes waiting on the phone, > I've managed to convey my concerns about service to AOL. Still, I'm > debating whether I'll continue to use them. I do like the indexing folders, > and I do have 500 business cards with my AOL address to use up; on the other > hand, there are many people, like my sister, a computer-programming type, who > positively curl their lips at the mention of the name. And there's the > uneven, impersonal, generally unsatisfactory service of late. > > My question to you is, what's the best address for an indexer? Do many > publishers have an AOL account, making it worthwhile to maintain one for ease > of transferring files? Is being able to check e-mail while travelling around > the country a big asset? Are there other factors I haven't thought of? > > I'd appreciate your thoughts. If this isn't sufficiently index-related for > the list, feel free to respond privately. > > Jenny Rowe > Rowe Indexing Services > jenrowe@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 18:18:48 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: AOL In a message dated 96-12-07 15:28:26 EST, Jenny wrote: > > My question to you is, what's the best address for an indexer? Do many > publishers have an AOL account, making it worthwhile to maintain one for > ease > of transferring files? Jenny, I haven't found that many publishers per se have AOL accounts, but many of their editors do (and let me upload my indexes to their personal accounts). AOL is the biggest of the online services these days, so the likelihood of someone having an AOL account is pretty high. This and the AOL Indexing folder, which I admit to not having visited in a long while, are the reasons I keep my AOL account. (It is also the only provider I know of that lets you send technicolor email. ;-D) However, for sending indexes to publishers/editors not on AOL, I use my Netcom account because its mailreader has MIME capabilities and it also has FTP available. Speaking of ISPs... don't use Earthlink!!!!!! I used to also have an Earthlink account (obtained when Netcom's POPs were really cranky). I thought I had cancelled it by not giving them a new expiration date for my credit card when the old one expired. (They were even worse than Netcom. We could never get online, even at 3am!) So about five months went by with no charges for Earthlink to my credit card and I thought that was the end of the matter. (After all, I couldn't log on without giving them a new expiration date.) Lo and behold, last month they somehow managed to resume charging my credit card and hit me for five months of charges at once!!!!!! Needless to say, we called Earthlink and read them the riot act and are also disputing the charges with the credit card company. Any ISP that charges you for months that you weren't able to log on doesn't deserve to be in business, IMHO. (And the credit card company is going to have to explain why it permitted charges to my account from a business that did not have the correct expiration date for the account.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 18:18:42 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: Re: unavailable mail/AOL In a message dated 96-12-07 14:00:51 EST, you write: > BTW, I ended up deleting that particular piece > of mail. Although I have been able to open up every other piece of email, > for > some reason that one was never available. Leslie, A few times I've had problems opening mail. It's as if some sort of glitch occurs in the download process and it affects every message in the same download after the title of the offending message. (I'm unable to open any of them when that happens.) However, the software has always seemed to know that the glitch occurred and has re-downloaded the offending message (and those following it) each time until I can open it, without any intervention on my part. This doesn't seem to be the case in your situation. So, a possible solution would be to go online (not just a flash session), open your Mail menu, and select "Check Mail You've Read". If the message was sent to you within the last 30 days, you should be able to retrieve and download that message again. I often do this when I realize that someone has tried to send me a file attachment that didn't download because I had my mailreader set to not automatically download attached files (which I set it to when emailing indexes to prevent the index itself from downloading as an attachment to the carbon copy I send myself). As for the problems folks have been experiencing since AOL went flat rate, I've been pretty lucky. I've been only experiencing a slight delay once I'm online while waiting for AOL to acknowledge that I have mail. But that may be due to the fact that I have everything set to run at 57.6k and the rest of the folks using the same POP haven't discovered that setting yet. Shhhhhhh. ;-D (Staying online for longer than a flash session may be another story, as I haven't tried that yet this month.) Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 17:00:49 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Carolyn G. Weaver" Subject: Re: AOL In-Reply-To: <199612072028.MAA27962@mx2.u.washington.edu> I have an AOL account as my "official" business email address because I can't use my University account for private gain. I do like the indexing folders as well - feels much smaller and cozier than Index-L, not to mention that the "Indexing with Cindex" folder is a quick way to get an answer to software problems. I must admit, however, that I'm glad AOL is not my PRIMARY email connection. It's irritating enough just getting rid of the 10-15 junk mail messages that are waiting in my inbox every time I log on. Carolyn Weaver Bellevue, WA. phone: 206/930-4348 email: cweaver@u.washington.edu CGWeaver@aol.com On Sat, 7 Dec 1996, Jennifer Rowe wrote: > After twenty minutes waiting online and forty minutes waiting on the phone, > I've managed to convey my concerns about service to AOL. Still, I'm > debating whether I'll continue to use them. I do like the indexing folders, > and I do have 500 business cards with my AOL address to use up; on the other > hand, there are many people, like my sister, a computer-programming type, who > positively curl their lips at the mention of the name. And there's the > uneven, impersonal, generally unsatisfactory service of late. > > My question to you is, what's the best address for an indexer? Do many > publishers have an AOL account, making it worthwhile to maintain one for ease > of transferring files? Is being able to check e-mail while travelling around > the country a big asset? Are there other factors I haven't thought of? > > I'd appreciate your thoughts. If this isn't sufficiently index-related for > the list, feel free to respond privately. > > Jenny Rowe > Rowe Indexing Services > jenrowe@aol.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:51:33 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: unavailable mail At 07:59 AM 12/7/96 -0500, WMacallen@AOL.COM wrote: >I've also had problems getting mail from aol recently (from aol). For >instance, this morning, I went in and was told mail was unavailble. When I >went in a second time, I got it. Does anyone else have a similar problem or >is it just me? And does anyone know why this might happen--whether aol is >just busy or whether there are technical problems? I'm just curious. Willa, I work as an assistant at AOL and have been told that there is a huge influx of new users because of the rate restructuring that went into effect this month. I also heard from somebody else that they are offering 50 free hours with their latest giveaway. I've had a terrible time getting into chat rooms, picking up mail, and so on. Try during "off hours"--early morning through early afternoon. You'll have much better luck. And I'm pretty sure this will die down over the next few weeks as folks get bored with cruising their little corner of the 'net. =Sonsie=