From: SMTP%"LISTSERV@BINGVMB.cc.binghamton.edu" 6-JAN-1997 10:31:11.94 To: CIRJA02 CC: Subj: File: "INDEX-L LOG9612D" Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 09:43:58 +0000 From: BITNET list server at BINGVMB (1.8a) Subject: File: "INDEX-L LOG9612D" To: CIRJA02@GSVMS1.CC.GASOU.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 13:59:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Jillbarret@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Indexing Software Reviews You can also try using the inter-library loan system at your local (or school) library. That's how I obtained a copy to review when I was deciding which software to buy. Jill Barrett Indexing Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Wildefire@AOL.COM Subject: acronyms, limited double posting of As time goes on, I find myself double posting fewer acronyms in computer books and I'm wondering what others think of this. By not double posting some of these, I'm also talking about not creating a See reference from the spellout. For example, nowadays, how many people would actually look for RAM in an index under "random access memory (RAM)" or even FTP under "file transfer protocol (FTP)"? Other examples are TCP/IP protocol, GIF files, JPEG files, CGI scripts, and HTML. (Maybe I'm pushing the envelope a bit with some of these. ;-D) Some of these (e.g., RAM) have almost become words in their own right like "radar", which was originally an acronym for "ranging and... (whatever)". For example, FTP is even often used as a verb these days. ;-D And "Veronica" and "Archie" on the Net have indeed become words, IMHO, their spellouts available only after a lot of digging. Two factors have led me to this point: One is limited space in some indexes that I'd rather devote to other entries more likely to be accessed. Technology is such an alphabet soup that I've had some indexes where at least a third of the size seemed to be devoted to either double posting and cross referencing acronyms. When I have to cram an index to a highly technical 800 pager into 10 pages (as I've had to do), these puppies are the first to go. The second is that some of these computer acronyms are so common now that many authors aren't even spelling them out in the text. (I do still spell them out in parentheses where I post them at the acronym.) Of course, I still double post less commonly used acronyms (or those of more recent origin) such as SSL for Secure Sockets Layer. The bit of inconsistency this introduces by double posting (or see referencing) some but not all acronyms is a bit unsettling to me, but that leads to yet another question of whether slavishly maintaining consistency for its own sake is inherent in the quality of an index. Another bulk-inducing element in computer texts is double posting symbols and words beginning with numbers (e.g., 24-bit files), however, I'm still assiduously double posting and See referencing them because of the possibility that some readers may try to access them at the spellout, unaware of their location at the top of the index. Comments? Am I the only one starting to bend the rule here or are others also venturing into these waters? Lynn Moncrief TECHindex & Docs Technical and Scientific Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 14:44:53 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: acronyms, limited double posting of Wildefire@AOL.COM wrote: > As time goes on, I find myself double posting fewer acronyms in > computer books and I'm wondering what others think of this. What a timely post! Thank you. I've been feeling quite guilty about doing exactly what you outlined; glad to have some confirmation. I've been posting most of the abbreviations you mentioned (CGI, GIF, JPEG, HTML, HTTP, FTP, Gopher, etc.) under their abbreviations with the expansion in parens, but *not* double-posting. My thinking was this: most users will look up FTP, and if they want to know what it stands for the index can tell them. So I have: FTP (File Transfer Protocol) but not File Transfer Protocol (FTP) > Of course, I still double post less commonly used acronyms (or those > of more recent origin) such as SSL for Secure Sockets Layer. Yup, me too. And I believe that eventually SSL will go the way of FTP and become one entry rather than two, but for now it is new enough that I double-post it. > The bit of inconsistency > this introduces by double posting (or see referencing) some but not > all acronyms is a bit unsettling to me See Guilt (above). :-) > Another bulk-inducing element in computer texts is > double posting symbols and words beginning with numbers (e.g., 24-bit > files) As a reader, I always look for a section called "Special Characters" or "Special Symbols" or some such; I'm always pissed when I don't find it. So as an indexer I try to use a "Special" section, plus let symbols float to the top of the sort order, plus alphabetize them as if they were spelled out. I know that seems like a lot, and maybe I"ll trim it eventually, but that's where I still am with symbols. Numbers, too. :-) Lynn, thanks again for the post. You don't know how much better I feel knowing that someone else -- someone I admire as an indexer -- is doing what I'm doing. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! In-Reply-To: <199612210104.UAA09127@polaris.net> On Fri, 20 Dec 1996 WordenDex@AOL.COM wrote: > Where are these slow-pay publishers located? East coast or elsewhere? > An editor I work with regularly commented, "Never trust New York publishers," The slow-pay publishers I've dealt with have been in the eastern part of the country, FWIW. Nobody from NYC, though. They've all paid up on time. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:16:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: AOL I was on AOL briefly. Very briefly. It drove me crazy. More bells and whistles than I ever needed. The easiest task made hopelessly hopeless. Having a problem, calling customer service, and being told by some disembodied computer voice that help would come my way in perhaps 40 minutes. I was on AOL when you could still hear the clock ticking away and your money with it. I never ever got the chance to look at indexing material. I do not miss AOL at all. Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:29:22 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: acronyms, limited double posting of Lynn, A very interesting posting indeed. It brought to mind the same question in the physical sciences field. Is it necessary, for example, to cross reference "Nuclear magnetic resonance, See NMR" in each index? Or some of the other chromatographic or medical diagnostic procedures that are known by acronyms? In medical books, is it necessary to keep using a cross reference from the spelled out version to AIDS or HIV? And how about all those immunology terms that are known by acronyms, the spelled out versions of which are becoming lost from common parlance in the field. I'm sure the same question comes up in other fields too. I too am undecided about this. If one is a purist, then the x-ref or double posting is *always* valid, and *always* needed. OTOH, considering space limitations, both from an economic point of view, and from the point of view of compactness with an eye toward ease of use, then at a certain point the double postings and cross references become excess baggage and are past the point of usefulness. A very interesting question, and I look forward to other opinions as we explore this subject. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:30:54 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! In-Reply-To: <199612211440.JAA25304@polaris.net> On Sat, 21 Dec 1996, William Meisheid wrote: > Part of that is due to the fact that you have to send a new bill each > month, reflecting the new amount. If you don't they won't give it to > you. Unfortunately, I neglected to add the following in my original posting: When the magical 30 days hits, I call the client and say that I have not been paid. I ask if there have been any problems with my bill. I also tell the client that I am sending out a second notice on that date. And I do so. My second notice very prominently reads "SECOND NOTICE." And I add on the finance charge. I am extremely persistent about getting paid. After all, who cares if I get paid, other than my very self? The squeaky wheel has, thus far, been oiled. But I still *hate* being paid late. Still, the folks who've paid late are not at all concerned with second notices or even third notices. I give clients at most three chances. If they pay late three times, I will not work for them again. Period. I have only had to result to legal measures once. Early in my career, a publisher that owed me over $1,500 told me that it would add my name to the list of all the freelancers who were asking for payment. The Accounts Payable person with whom I spoke told me that the company was having cash flow problems and didn't know when, if ever, it'd pay its freelancers. I made phone calls all the way up to the CEO. When that didn't work, I sicced an attorney on them. (Never be your own attorney.) A couple of threatening letters and phone calls from him resulted in a check for me. I paid the attorney only about $150 for his services. Well worth it. > I have found that sending a new bill gets results with some > clients. Evidently the late payers I've worked for aren't your late payers. ;) Of course, they're not my clients any longer, either. Which will happen with my current client (a client of long standing, and one that has always paid me within 30 days) if I am paid late again. For further help with collecting, check Marian Faux's book, _Successful Free-Lancing_. I have a paperback copy. I think her section on late payment is very good. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:52:15 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Ann Norcross Subject: Re: acronyms, limited double posting of Janet's mention of medical and immunological terms made me wonder about a characteristic of computer books that may not be as true for other subject areas: computer software, and thus its documentation, is obsolete the minute the CD-ROMS and diskettes are formatted. Our manuals, no matter how well written or indexed, have a limited useful life -- just until the next release comes out. So although someone might want to read a medical or scientific book from several years ago (perhaps as research, or perhaps because it is still the basic reference for a subject), I doubt that anyone would buy an old Netscape 1.0 book for any reason at all! And those buying Netscape 3.0 books have probably heard of HTML already... ...unless, of course, they are brand new computer users, and here is where I start to get a little nervous. What if the book about Netscape version 7562.4 is the very first exposure a reader has had to GIF and JPEG? Am I shortchanging that person by not listing the spelled-out version of the abbreviations? Perhaps if the novice reader is indeed the primary audience for the book, my index should contain more double-posted abbreviations? I don't know. That's a cloudy area for me. I do know that in an advanced object-oriented programming book I'm not going to double-post FTP, for example. I am looking forward to others' opinions on this topic. Ann Norcross Crossover Information Services ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 17:38:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Richard T. Evans" Subject: Re: acronyms, limited double posting of Back in my corporate incarnation, in books for mainframe computer topics, it was acceptable to not crosspost acronyms that were widely known. For instance, JCL (Job Control Language) and VTAM (Virtual Telecommunications Access Method) were indexed only under their respective acronyms. That was true over five years ago. I'd say it's largely a judgement call based on your estimation of common usage among your readers. Dick Evans ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 19:47:09 +0000 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group Comments: W: Invalid RFC822 field - "90.120.212]) by nvsgi1.netvision.net.il (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA26715; Mon". Rest of header flushed. Comments: E: "From:"/"Sender:" field is missing. From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster Hello Rachel: I'm a Jerusalem-based (American living in Israel) techwriter, editor, translator (I even do indexes . . .) who is willing to try to answer your very embarrassing questions. It would be helpful to know the name of the 19th century treatise you are indexing. Also, please try to make your questions as specific as possible. BTW, are you related to a Rice from Baltimore? There was a Rabbi Rice there who was very influential in the development of the Jewish community there. Anyway, fire when ready . . . Best wishes, Harvey Kaniel hkan@netvision.net.il At 08:09 AM 12/21/96 -0400, Rachel Rice wrote: >I can't stay awake. I'm indexing a critical translation of a 19th >century treatise. It's aimed for Hebrew scholars. It's incomprehensible >to me and I fall asleep after about 9 minutes, even at my desk. I can't >Last job for this company, no questions there. Any Jewish scholars out >there who can help me out off line? I have a few questions that are too >embarassing, as a Jew, to post in public. > >Willa: I'm very happy with TIAC and don't miss AOL for a second. > >Re Bah Humbug, so far I've been paid withing a few days of 30 days from >delivery but one client, who is a book producer for publishers, who pays >me when he gets paid, so it's often 6 weeks out. But he tells me at the >front of each job when to expect the payment, so at least I can plan for >it. I do have bad cash flow problems. Thank goodness for my part time >job. Which I hate and can't wait to have a good enough cash flow to drop >it. > >I'm light headed. It's 8:06 a.m. and I'm ready for a nap. > >Rachel > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 00:27:29 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: acronyms, limited double posting of I run across this acronym problem constantly in the computer books I do too. For ones that fall close to each other in the index, such as RAM (Random Access Memory) and Random Access Memory (RAM), I end up deleting the spelled-out version and leaving it posted just under the acronym. I figure that even if the reader tries to look up the entry under the spelled-out version they will still see the acronym since they fall so close together in the index. But if I know that there will be lots of entries in between the acronym and the spelled-out version, then I will create a See reference from the spelled-out term to the acronym. For consistencies' sake I try to do this with all acronyms, even the really common ones like HTML or FTP. With the special symbols, I do double-post them under both the symbol and the spelled-out version. The symbols then fall at the beginning of the index, and I alphabetize them as if they are spelled-out, which is actually pretty easy since I have the spelled-out version in parentheses after the symbol. I also usually try to put whatever the symbol is used for, too. So sometimes I end up with a section that looks like this: & (ampersand) bitwise AND, 45 string concatenation, 76-77 * (asterisk), multiplication operator, 58 and so on. Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Computer Publishing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 07:21:43 -0400 Reply-To: rachelr@tiac.net Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Rachel Rice Organization: Directions Unlimited Desktop Services Subject: acronyms, glossaries Regarding the acronyms, I've done several books for beginners computer people, and in those I have double posted everything with full "spell outs" but for the programmer's manuals I didn't. I think it all depends on audience. When in doubt, I spell it out. Next question is regarding glossaries. I've got a glossary in this Hebrew book that is really more than just a definition of terms. It has discussions within entries. I think it should be indexed, but Chicago and Mulvaney say not to index glossaries, and Wellisch says to index them but just as far as telling the reader where the definition of the word is to be founnd, e.g.: peopleness subhead, xx defined, xx subhead, xx Within the text the author has made a note to see the glossary for all marked terms. The publisher says not to index front and back matter, but in this case I might suggest to them otherwise unless you all disagree. I'm really not sure about this at all. If it were a straight dictionary-type thing I'd leave it be, but it's really more than that. Any thoughts? Thanks for all the responses to how to stay awake. As soon as I wake up I'll answer you all. You've given some excellent ideas. Also thanks for offers to help with questions. Those are on their way. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: WMacallen@AOL.COM Subject: was aol/now tiac Thought that I should report the positive experience I had with TIAC when I registered with them. I considered using world.std.com (thanks Susan for the info on them), but since I already had an old disk from The Information Access Company, I went with them. After having problems installing the disk on my own (it was apparently quite old), someone from customer service walked me through the entire installation process over the telephone! Since they offer a 14-day trial period, I can test it out. And they offer several payment methods, via credit card, checking account or a monthly invoice! It was wonderful talking with a human being, rather than being put on hold for a half hour! I just thought I'd like to share a positive experience with an online provider Thanks Rachel, and others for your feedback. (BTW, it sounds like Hazel was on aol at the beginning of aol time! :) Willa MacAllen macallen@tiac.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:04:05 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: AOL On Mon, 23 Dec 1996 WMacallen@AOL.COM wrote: > (BTW, it sounds like Hazel was on aol at the beginning of aol time! :) I was on AOL twice. The last time was in July and August 1996. All I can say is that I hope AOL has changed for the better since then. ;) Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:39:05 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sharon Hughes Subject: acronyms - double posting(third try to send if you got more, skip this) I tried to send this once before- if you get it twice, forgive me. >It brought to mind the same question in >the physical sciences field. Is it necessary, for example, to cross >reference "Nuclear magnetic resonance, See NMR" in each index? Or some of >the other chromatographic or medical diagnostic procedures that are known by >acronyms? In medical books, is it necessary to keep using a cross reference >from the spelled out version to AIDS or HIV? And how about all those >immunology terms that are known by acronyms, the spelled out versions of >which are becoming lost from common parlance in the field. I'm sure the same >question comes up in other fields too.>> I'm fairly new to indexing but I've spent years reading scientific literature and there are several reasons why I would continue to use double posting for acronyms in the scientific/medical field. The first has been mentioned already, that the literature will be read for a much longer period of time than computer books and the current reader might not be familiar with an acronym that was popular 10 years before, especially if the term is no longer common usage The second is that because scientific literature is expanding at a fantastic rate and scientific labs are coining their own acronyms (hoping they will become the standard?) but other labs may be using the same letters for something else. If one becomes accepted the other may still be in the minds of some readers. It's not unusual to find more than one 'translation' of the same acronym in the same issue of a journal. Many scientific authors are very pedantic about terminology and they may not even look under the acronym and still complain loudly and clearly when they can't find an entry for their favorite 'bug', technique, or compound in the index. Sharon Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 07:38:35 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! At 03:30 PM 12/22/96 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: >I have only had to result to legal measures once. Early in my career, a >publisher that owed me over $1,500 told me that it would add my name to >the list of all the freelancers who were asking for payment. The Accounts >Payable person with whom I spoke told me that the company was having cash >flow problems and didn't know when, if ever, it'd pay its freelancers. I >made phone calls all the way up to the CEO. When that didn't work, I >sicced an attorney on them. (Never be your own attorney.) A couple of >threatening letters and phone calls from him resulted in a check for me. I >paid the attorney only about $150 for his services. Well worth it. With all due respect to your legal training and official lawyer status, Hazel, I'd suggest that there is a reasonable alternative. I've "been my own lawyer" in the sense that I've taken several clients to Small Claims Court and won my case...and gotten paid. Depending on the circumstances, the client, and so forth, it is quite possible to win a $1500 judgment in SCC and pay about $25 in fees and spend perhaps an hour in court and another hour or two preparing paperwork. These days, it's hard to find a lawyer who would charge only $150 to do what yours did for you. The limit in CA for SCC judgments is somewhere around $5000...maybe more. I doubt that many (if any) of us have any outstanding bills that are more than that. And you can sue an Eastern client in your home court...you don't have to file in their jurisdiction. Anyway, it's an alternative worth looking at if you have a real problem collecting from a client. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:22:44 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! In-Reply-To: <199612231537.KAA24397@polaris.net> On Mon, 23 Dec 1996, Sonsie wrote: > With all due respect to your legal training and official lawyer status, > Hazel, I'd suggest that there is a reasonable alternative. I've "been my own > lawyer" in the sense that I've taken several clients to Small Claims Court > and won my case...and gotten paid. Small Claims Court can work really, really well and the costs are, as Sonsie says, minimal. SCC works best, I've found, when you and the client are in the same state. When I had my, er, problem, I was living in Minnesota, and the client was in Maryland. I knew that I could get a judgment against the client in Minnesota SCC--but how was I going to *collect* on the judgment? I had never worked for that client before and thus had no idea where the client banked. It would've been expensive for me to fly to Maryland, clutching my judgment (although, believe me, I certainly *thought* about it!). I told the attorney with whom I spoke (the first visit was free; sometimes that's the case with attorneys) that I didn't want to spend more than $500 to recover my money. He assured me he could recover it for less. He had come recommended to me, so he may well have given me a deal. Here in Tallahassee, I know lots of lawyers who're getting upwards of $150 per hour. Youch! However, there's always Legal Aid, which can be a help. I don't know if you have to prove what your income is. I know that the wait to see a Legal Aid attorney can be a long one. Anyway, as Sonsie found, *any* kind of a legal document can often make a tardy client extremely nervous. So, yes, by all means, pursue the SCC route. Most of my clients are wonderful folks. But the sleazy experiences often stick in the mind, don't they? Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:48:39 CST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: annem Subject: ACRONYMS To: INDEX-L@BINGVMB.BITNET, "Indexer's Discussion Group" Subject: Re[2]: acronyms, limited double posting of As an in-house editor, I agree with your reasoning here, Cheryl, about not needing a double posting if the two fall close enough together. I also liked (from Ann Norcross?) that the spelled-out version appear in parentheses after the acronym. Because space IS an issue so often, I think we probably should specify whether the company's editor has a preference in this double posting of acronyms. Would that be a help or nuisance to indexers? Do you like more specific info from publishers or is it better to be given a freer rein in making the decisions? Anne M. Heiles Human Kinetics annem@hkusa.doc "I run across this acronym problem constantly in the computer books I do too. For ones that fall close to each other in the index, such as RAM (Random Access Memory) and Random Access Memory (RAM), I end up deleting the spelled-out version and leaving it posted just under the acronym. I figure that even if the reader tries to look up the entry under the spelled-out version they will still see the acronym since they fall so close together in the index. But if I know that there will be lots of entries in between the acronym and the spelled-out version, then I will create a See reference from the spelled-out term to the acronym. For consistencies' sake I try to do this with all acronyms, even the really common ones like HTML or FTP." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 12:12:21 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JPerlman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ACRONYMS Anne, You asked if indexers like to get more information from the publisher or less, like whether the publisher (the editor) has a preference about whether to double post acronyms. I definitely prefer more information! The more I know about the client's preferences, needs, style, requirements, etc, the better I can submit a product that is "just what the doctor ordered." The more info upfront the better. The more you've thought out what you want and need, the fewer changes will be required later, after submission of the index, and the lower the possibility of your not getting exactly what you wanted. Janet Perlman Southwest Indexing ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Nancy Newlin Subject: Computer acronym discussion Thanks all for the interesting discussion about double-posting computer acronyms. I work for a networking equipment manufacturer and our customers are (generally) network administrators or high-level informations systems people. I've migrated our indexing to posting the fully spelled-out word with a See to the acronym, with all subentries under the acronym. Now I'm beginning to think that our audience is so sophisticated that they talk in acronymns all the time and I should drop the spelled-out acronym from the index. We will continue to spell out the words with the acronym following in the text as in: . . . uses the Spanning Tree Protocol (STP). (I'd bet that many members of our audience couldn't correctly tell anyone what STP stands for!!) It's not really a space issue in the index, just eliminating some work, since each writer indexes his/her own book. Thanks for the discussion. I'm going to pass the suggestion on to the other editors in the company. Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 12:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Seth A. Maislin" Subject: Alphabetizing theory I'm running into a clash between practice a theory when it comes to letter-by-letter sorting. I'd like to hear your opinions. I have an index (already written, but I'm playing with the sorting of the entries) and I realize that letter-by-letter alphabetizing, while easy to accomplish as an absolute, will in this case be horribly counterintuitive to readers. Here's why: Consider these four primary-level entries: c command (debugger) C programming language caller function Collate module In word-by-word sorting, these four are in the correct order. In letter-by-letter sorting, they are not. The problem is that the first two entries contain words that I have chosen, specifically the words "command" and "programming language." Because I chose to add them, and ONLY because I added them, these entries are in the wrong order letter-by-letter. A letter-by-letter index should be: caller function c command (debugger) Collate module C programming language But as a reader, would you ever look up something like C (referring to the programming language) more than halfway down the list of terms? (And in this book, it's a very long list of C words.) What I should be doing is: c C caller function Collate module But that, as you can see, is awful. Especially because the first several entries starting with C really have either "c" or "C" as a single word. In fact, here are the first 9 entries starting with c: \c (see control characters) c command (debugger) -c file test operator -C file test operator C language C++ language /c modifier C preprocessor -c switch If I then apply letter-by-letter alphabetizing to this list, they disappear entirely, and I think that the majority of readers would never find them. (Would you expect to find "-c switch" after "cryptography"?) So it seems that letter-by-letter alphabetizing is simply a BAD choice. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if the theory behind letter-by-letter alphabetizing is impossible in practice. Do you agree? - Seth P.S. I do have a practical compromise in mind, and I've implemented it for now. Still, being your average anally retentive indexer, the lack of consistency bothers me. But I don't want to share my ideas until I hear from you, to keep you all as unbiased as possible. :-) -- Seth A. Maislin (seth@ora.com) "A witty saying proves nothing." --Voltaire "I hate quotations." --Ralph Waldo Emerson O'Reilly & Associates Focus Publishing Services 90 Sherman Street 89 Grove Street Cambridge MA 02140 Watertown MA 02172-2826 (617) 499-7439 phone (617) 924-4428 (617) 661-1116 facsimile smaislin@world.std.com WWW: http://www.ora.com/people/staff/seth ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:39:58 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: ACRONYMS Hi Anne: Yes, it is always helpful to an indexer to know what the editor prefers about acronyms, esp. in a book with many of them (in the case of Human Kinetics books, it might be the names of sports organizations or leagues, for instance). However, I often don't know how much of a problem the acronyms are going to pose until I am done because very often the number and selection of subject keywords will affact (1) how close together the acronym and its spelled out version will appear to be; (2) whether or not I want to use the acronym or spelled out version as a main heading with significant subheadings (in which case I would use one and x-ref from the other rather than repeat a long entry in 2 places); and (3) sometimes I create the double-posts when editing the final index, using the spelled-out version with an acronym in parens until that last stage of creating the index. So, I would say that I rarely like to be confined in advance about the acronyms unless we know in advance that a similar book had a problem with them, in which case I can make some decisions about this book based on the prior one. Books in series and computer books (generally in series, even if not formally so) and other technical documentation lend themselves to general guidelines more so than monographs do. In my experience, I'm as likely to change my mind about the treatment of acronyms in a monograph by the time I get to the end of the book as I am to shuffle other keywords, synonyms, and corss-references (in other words, a little or a lot depending on the book). In summary, I would say that I like guidance but flexibility to see alternatives that might work better (which I often cannot see until I am editing the whole index at the end). Happy Holidays (HH), Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:48:27 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! At 11:22 AM 12/23/96 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: >Small Claims Court can work really, really well and the costs are, as >Sonsie says, minimal. SCC works best, I've found, when you and the client >are in the same state. Thanks for your support, Hazel! The cases I'ved pursued have almost always been outside my immediate area, though in my state. A little secret...if the defendant doesn't show up for the trial, and you do--you almost automatically are declared the winner. You get your judgment without having to do much of anything other than ask for it. In a way, then, suing an out-of-area company actually works to your advantage. >When I had my, er, problem, I was living in Minnesota, and the client was >in Maryland. I knew that I could get a judgment against the client in >Minnesota SCC--but how was I going to *collect* on the judgment? I had >never worked for that client before and thus had no idea where the client >banked. One client I sued kept changing bank accounts (I suspect for the nefarious purpose of avoiding creditors like me). When I would locate one account and call the bank to ask if his latest check was good, the account would either be closed or empty. Finally I recorded an abstract of judgment and lien against all real property the person owned (the company was a sole proprietorship, so the business debt was also a personal one). About five years later, the man died and his personal residence was sold. Before the sale could go through, the estate HAD to pay my judgment...with interest that had accumulated at 1.5% per month for 60 months! The check was far in excess of my original bill. >It would've been expensive for me to fly to Maryland, clutching my >judgment (although, believe me, I certainly *thought* about it!). I told >the attorney with whom I spoke (the first visit was free; sometimes that's >the case with attorneys) that I didn't want to spend more than $500 to >recover my money. He assured me he could recover it for less. He had come >recommended to me, so he may well have given me a deal. In another case that involved graphic design work, I had a friend who lived close enough to do this go to the person's shop and pick up several business cards from a holder on the counter...to prove that the business was using my work without having paid me (or the printer, which I had to pay myself). My friend wrote a short letter explaining his trip, which I included with the papers when I presented my case in court. I won--no question. This person failed to acknowledge any of my communications or do anything to fulfill my judgment against him. So, for a fee of about $75 (which became part of the judgment against my Client from Hell), I had a deputy sheriff go to his place of business, in full sheriff regalia, and collect money from the till. Within 15 minutes of the sheriff's arrival, an hysterical business owner was on the phone demanding to know what the $%*@# I was doing to him. Five minutes later, I had a promise of a certified check for payment in full, to be sent through the county sheriff's office directly to me. He knew if that check wasn't on my desk in a week, he'd get another visit from a law officer. Once again, with interest running, I made out just fine. >Anyway, as Sonsie found, *any* kind of a legal document can often make a >tardy client extremely nervous. So, yes, by all means, pursue the SCC >route. Most of my clients are wonderful folks. But the sleazy experiences >often stick in the mind, don't they? For the few times I have actually had a case go to court, Hazel, far more often I've sent the preliminary papers to an errant client and gotten a check by return mail. Just the =threat= of legal action can get some people's attention in a very useful manner. I'm sharing these horror stories with you all not because I have an unusual number of "no-pay" clients (I've actually had very few over the past 25 years), but because I hope some of the more timid will learn that they have rights and the means to enforce them. If we all got tough, fewer would suffer these sorts of problems. Go get 'em, folks! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 11:51:49 -0600 Reply-To: becohen@prairienet.org Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Barbara E. Cohen" Subject: Re: Alphabetizing theory Seth: I think that you have hit on the prime reason computer manuals are indexed word-by-word. At least, I have always thought that the "C programming language" was a good example of sorting by intellectual need over strict spelling adherence (that isn't phrased el;egantly, but what I mean it, yes, people want to find "C" at the beginning of the C section, not down past "computers" so word sort puts things where each "word" takes precedence, as it does in our brain (not always, but in this case, I mean). Any particular reason why you don't want to just switch to a word sort for this index? Barbara -- Barbara E. Cohen Indexing & Editorial Services Champaign, IL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 12:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! In-Reply-To: <199612231746.MAA26511@polaris.net> Many, many thanks to Sonsie for her terrific posting! I think that, far too often, freelancers feel they're absolutely powerless. They're not, as Sonsie has so superbly related. But folks, you've *got* to take matters into your own hands. Remember: *You're* the only person who cares whether you get paid. If you were working full-time and in-house, and your paycheck didn't show up, you'd ask questions, right? Well, checks from publishers *are* our paychecks. Ask questions. Be a squeaky wheel. Most of the time, you won't even have to get as far as legal action. Go get 'em! BTW, I've been paid by everybody I've worked for, and I've been freelancing since 1985. Yes, sometimes it was a struggle to get the money, but I *did* get paid. And most of my clients are terrific folks who pay within thirty days. Send a holiday card to your good clients, thanking them for *being* such good clients! Thanks again, Sonsie. You're an inspiration to us all. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 13:05:50 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: ACRONYMS In-Reply-To: <199612231645.LAA11706@polaris.net> On Mon, 23 Dec 1996, annem wrote: > Because space > IS an issue so often, I think we probably should specify whether > the company's editor has a preference in this double posting of > acronyms. Would that be a help or nuisance to indexers? Do you > like more specific info from publishers or is it better to be > given a freer rein in making the decisions? I think it's great when a publisher can send me some specific guidelines. I have what I call my intake sheet. On it, I have a number of questions that I generally ask a client: Do you prefer word-by-word or letter-by-letter alphabetization? Do you prefer run-in or indented format? Do you have any space limitations, such as characters per line or number of lines? When space is going to be a problem, it's great if a publisher lets me know that I shouldn't worry about double-posting with acronyms, for example. A number of my clients give me free rein. A number say that space *may* be a problem; I should go ahead and make the index as long as it needs to be, but on the hard copy, would I please indicate material that might be excised, if necessary? Normally, I find that I have questions as I work through the book, and I stay in touch with the editor. All sorts of fascinating problems can crop up as one goes along. I think good and open communication between freelancers and presses is absolutely essential. Only in that way can we both produce a great product. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out."--Unknown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:21:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: IN NEED OF ADVICE I posted this to the list recently, but as it was a holiday, I'll post it again. I gave a talk on Marketing Your Services to the MA chapter of ASI. You can view the handout from that talk on http://www.tiac.net/users/marisol/susanh.htm It includes an overview of the market and some marketing tips, as well as recommended rates for beginners. Someone just wrote me and said they found it helpful. Also, I have a video on Basic Indexing Skills that includes about an hour and a half on how to market your services, negotiate fees, and get your freelance business running. The video is on sale until Dec. 31. If you want more info about that go to my Web site at http://www.abbington.com/holbert Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:48:11 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Alphabetizing theory Seth, I usually use letter-by-letter alphabetizing for mainstream publishing. I almost always use word-by-word for computer books for the very reason you mention. W-b-w seems to sort the entries according to topic. I don't know what your compromise is, but I do recommend keeping c command and C programming and not having any entry that just says C. I think that makes the entries much easier to understand. With good indexing software, you should be able to change your method of alphabetizing at any point. I know you can with wINDEX. Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:48:17 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing multiple Word(?) files Dear Elaine, DoctoHelp will do automatic indexing over a number of files. You have to set up a Word master document. I assume RoboHelp will do the same. I recently used DtH to index a software manual. I ended up turning off the automatic feature and just using straight Word indexing. But automatic indexing might be helpful if you wanted to index every resume that listed Cobol for example. However, you would miss that resume that said "I know every conceivable program language." You can do the automatic indexing automatically, so to speak, or by stopping at every entry and looking at it. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! The Freelance Editorial Association has a greivance committee that reviews problems and sometimes contacts clients. Many times a letter from the committee is sufficient to resolve the problem (i.e., make the client pay up) because the client has to worry about relationships with other freelancers. Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:00:02 +1100 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Julie Forrest Subject: Windows95/Software question Dear All, I hope my question is relevant to the group: I have just recently bought a new computer which runs Windows95. I was under the impression that I could use run Microsoft Word 6 in Window95 but am unable to load the program. Do I need to purchase the upgrade or am I just neglecting to do something vital? Thanks in advance for any help. A Merry Christmas to everyone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 17:05:09 -0700 Reply-To: ljnelson@rt66.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Nelson Subject: Re: Windows95/Software question Julie, I've been running Word 6.0 with Windows95 for a year with no problem. I can't think of anything special we had to do before installing it, we just loaded it and it worked. Are you trying to install it using "run" from the "Start" menu in the toolbar on the desktop? If so, I can't imagine why it wouldn't work, unless you have a bad disk or something else equally as annoying. Sorry I couldn't be more help, except to tell you it should work. Linda Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 19:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Alphabetizing theory In a message dated 96-12-23 12:43:02 EST, you write: > So it seems that letter-by-letter alphabetizing is simply a BAD choice. > In fact, I'm starting to wonder if the theory behind letter-by-letter > alphabetizing is impossible in practice. Do you agree? > I have always had a problem with letter-by-letter alphabetizing.... Came from years of doing Library Skills classes for Freshmen English courses at colleges. These were individually-paced classes, and upwards of 2000 students would take them every year. I also adapted the course for a smaller group at a community college library. The course workbooks were illustrated with sample text of each reference source, and detailed explanations, including how certain tools used letter-by-letter and how it worked. No matter. Every time we got to the letter-by-letter-organized tools I had nothing but complaints from students who could not find anything. If it is that counter-intuitive that it has to be explained over and over again, it is just not the simplest or most understood method. Explaining something 2,000 times gives you pause for thinking, eh? Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 19:31:08 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: JanCW@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Windows95/Software question In a message dated 96-12-23 18:25:10 EST, you write: > I have just recently bought a new computer which runs Windows95. I was under > the impression that I could use run Microsoft Word 6 in Window95 but am > unable to load the program. Do I need to purchase the upgrade or am I just > neglecting to do something vital? > You can certainly run Word 6 - done it many a time myself. There is probably a problem that reinstalling word would fix - try removing the entire thing and starting over. Reinstalling, however, is sometimes tricky. Sometimes the reinstaller will hit a DLL file or some such idiot file that you want replaced (as it might be corrupted) and it says "Oh, it's already here, I don't have to reinstall it" and you wind up with the same problem. If there is an uninstaller available under Windows/Control Panel/Add-Remove Programs, use that so that you get every piece of it off. Then reinstall using the same utility. Should work. Jan Wright ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 19:28:13 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Computer Law Observer I'm posting this message to Copyediting-L and to Index-L. If any of you are interested in computers and law, there's a fascinating Internet newsletter on the subject. It's called "Computer Law Observer." If you're interested in subscribing, just send a note to wgalkin@lawcircle.com No need to write any sort of special note. Just tell Mr. Galkin you'd like to subscribe. It's OK to write something in the subject line. Hazel Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Cats and monkeys, monkeys and cats--all human life is there." --Henry James (_The Madonna of the Future_) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:48:08 GMT Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Richard Wright-ARCHIVES Subject: CHAT RE: acronyms; final words Nancy's posting (see below) of the 23rd exhibits what for me is the continuing problem with acronyms: ambiguity. She refers to the correct meaning of STP as Spanning Tree Protocol. But for me as an engineer it is 'really' Standard Temperature and Pressure -- and for the truly general audience it is a brand name for an automotive fuel additive. The problem is that I'm a car-owning engineer in the computer industry, so they are all 'correct' or at least current. As a 9-year veteran of the civil service, I learned to cope with acronyms as a way of life. I even had great fun more-or-less communicating in acronyms with one of my daughters (now long grown up and away from such games): RGT for 'really great time', NSB for 'not so bad', ad inifinitum (AI?). So much of domestic conversation is stereotypical (at least the part coming from hurried and harried so-called grownups) that a clever child can soon reduce the bulk of daily transactions to a codebook. The acronyms developed as her subtle (?) comment on the patterning of our lives -- but grew to be quite an endearing practice (and widely used, or course, on the Internet eg BTW). They could be used in times of crisis and difficulty to retain balance -- one of us could say 'NSB' to the other at the worst as well as the best times -- a sort of sidebar communication, indicating something about intellect and presence of mind -- and its resilience -- in the face of life's wilder forces. An acronym might even stretch to a 'last words' context. I can't personally envisage coming up with anything momentous or quotable, so a friendly old acronym might be just the thing - eg TTFN (ta ta for now), Richard - BBC ---------- From: Indexer's Discussion Group To: Multiple recipients of list IND Subject: Computer acronym discussion Date: 23 December 1996 05:30pm Thanks all for the interesting discussion about double-posting computer acronyms. I work for a networking equipment manufacturer and our customers are (generally) network administrators or high-level informations systems people. I've migrated our indexing to posting the fully spelled-out word with a See to the acronym, with all subentries under the acronym. Now I'm beginning to think that our audience is so sophisticated that they talk in acronymns all the time and I should drop the spelled-out acronym from the index. We will continue to spell out the words with the acronym following in the text as in: . . . uses the Spanning Tree Protocol (STP). (I'd bet that many members of our audience couldn't correctly tell anyone what STP stands for!!) It's not really a space issue in the index, just eliminating some work, since each writer indexes his/her own book. Thanks for the discussion. I'm going to pass the suggestion on to the other editors in the company. Nancy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:30:51 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Elaine R. Firestone" Subject: Take 2: Explain- Indexing multiple Word(?) files Dear Everyone, After getting some more info from my husband, I'm writing again to pick everyone's brain. Here was my original post: Hello everyone. Today, my husband asked me if I knew of any feature in Word that does automatic indexing. He has multiple files (of resumes) that he believes are in Word (or possibly ASCII). He would like to get them indexed. _____________ Since he doesn't know what he's looking for in the resumes, he doesn't know what words to use as index terms. It sounds like what he wants is a package/ability that will index _every_ word in the resume except for common words (e.g., a, and, it, is, like, etc.). As an example, he has my resume and one for "Joe Smith". He runs mine through the magic indexing package and comes up with the following: edit, editing, editor, Word, WordPerfect, budget, TeX, typesetting.... He runs Joe's through it and gets (I'm being funny here y'all): garbage, slime, grit, mold, mildew, collector, scum, COBOL, BASIC, FORTRAN... Is there anything out there that does this? Thanks again, and have a happy holiday everyone! elaine Elaine R. Firestone elaine@calval.gsfc.nasa.gov elaine@seawifs.gsfc.nasa.gov ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Alphabetizing theory Seth, I usually use letter-by-letter alphabetizing for mainstream publishing. I almost always use word-by-word for computer books for the very reason you mention. W-b-w seems to sort the entries according to topic. I don't know what your compromise is, but I do recommend keeping c command and C programming and not having any entry that just says C. I think that makes the entries much easier to understand. With dedicated indexing software, you should be able to change your method of alphabetizing at any point. I know you can with wINDEX. Of course, that doesn't help if the index is embedded. Susan Susan Holbert "Indexing workshops and videos" susanh@world.std.com 617-893-0514 http://www.abbington.com/holbert ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 10:50:07 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Susan Holbert Subject: Re: Indexing multiple Word(?) files Dear Elaine, DoctoHelp will do automatic indexing over a number of files. You have to set up a Word master document. I assume RoboHelp will do the same. I recently used DtH to index a software manual. I ended up turning off the automatic feature and just using straight Word indexing. But automatic indexing might be helpful if you wanted to index every resume that listed Cobol for example. However, you would miss that resume that said "I know every conceivable program language." You can do the automatic indexing automatically, so to speak, or by stopping at every entry and looking at it. Susan PS If this got posted twice, could someone let me know? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 12:21:17 EST Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Mike Smith <73177.366@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Assistance with unsub... My apologies for posting this to the list, but I've tried every way I can think of to UNSUBSCRIBE myself (including the *right* way, as described in the introductory file...). None have been successful. This list subscription to my CIS account was strictly a temporary solution until I started with another ISP, but it fills up my mailbox in less than a day! Would some kind soul *please* unsubscribe me? I'll be back home in Texas in another month or so, and I'll resubscribe then. Many thanks and Happy Holidays! Mike Michael K. Smith Smith Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 12:59:30 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Infojo6363@AOL.COM Subject: Digest Option Anyone - I have noticed that some of you are recieving this list in digest form. I have tried the command listed in the RefCard but I get a message returned that the command is unknown. If anyone can help me out here it would certainly be appreciated. Thanks in advance, JP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 18:15:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: David Heiret Subject: Keyword list for categories of knowledge Is there something like a keyword list for categories of knowledge? I've been thinking about the problem of indexing the Net and think such a list would be useful for supplying a simple standard. Perhaps one of our librarian friends has the answer? David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Dec 1996 21:58:18 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: DStaub11@AOL.COM Subject: Re: editor guidance > Because space > IS an issue so often, I think we probably should specify whether > the company's editor has a preference in this double posting of > acronyms. Would that be a help or nuisance to indexers? Do you > like more specific info from publishers or is it better to be > given a freer rein in making the decisions? >> Hard-and-fast rules about acronyms (never double-posting, always double-posting, always making a see reference from the acronym to the spelled-out form) almost always need common-sense exceptions (ie the two forms are right next to each other in the index; the acronym is the more common form, etc.). Therefore, I, like Barb, like knowing the editor's preferences while being given some free rein to make judgements based on common sense and the individual text. In many cases I get this free rein when I explain my logic. Do Mi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 13:44:34 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: TBrtrm@AOL.COM Subject: 11th Day of Christmas Can someone tell me the lines following: The 11th day of Christmas, My true love said to me------------------------. Is it 11 pipers piping? Thanks a lot. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 12:17:03 -0700 Reply-To: ljnelson@rt66.com Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Linda Nelson Subject: Re: 11th Day of Christmas I asked my eight year old, who just learned this song in school, (and who has sung it repeatedly since last Thursday) and am told that on the 11th day of Christmas, "my true love gave to me, eleven pipers piping." Linda Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 20:58:57 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! At 12:58 PM 12/23/96 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: >Many, many thanks to Sonsie for her terrific posting! > >I think that, far too often, freelancers feel they're absolutely >powerless. They're not, as Sonsie has so superbly related. Thanks, Hazel! I got to thinking, after I had sent that note, that perhaps some publishers were lurking and would decide I was such a tough broad they would never hire me! But I just hate seeing people wring their hands and whine about how they have problems getting paid. Hope your Christmas was great. I am still in recovery after having a houseful of guests for three days and cooking, cleaning, and entertaining until I thought I would die. It was fun, but very exhausting, and I have two indexes and a writing project all pressing on me. Early to bed tonight, then hit it tomorrow... =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 21:13:30 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! At 12:58 PM 12/23/96 -0500, Hazel Blumberg-McKee wrote: >Many, many thanks to Sonsie for her terrific posting! > >I think that, far too often, freelancers feel they're absolutely >powerless. They're not, as Sonsie has so superbly related. Thanks, Hazel! I got to thinking, after I had sent that note, that perhaps some publishers were lurking and would decide I was such a tough broad they would never hire me! But I just hate seeing people wring their hands and whine about how they have problems getting paid. Hope your Christmas was great. I am still in recovery after having a houseful of guests for three days and cooking, cleaning, and entertaining until I thought I would die. It was fun, but very exhausting, and I have two indexes and a writing project all pressing on me. Early to bed tonight, then hit it tomorrow... Hazel...I got a mystery nondelivery notice with an unintelligible message attached. I think it might have been this message, that didn't go through the first time. If not, well, sorry for sending it twice. =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 21:16:02 -0800 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Sonsie Subject: Re: Bah, humbug! Sorry, a message meant for Hazel's private email got sent to the list by mistake. My error! =Sonsie= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 08:55:09 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cynthia Bertelsen Subject: LIBRES article on indexing This may have been mentioned before on the list (and if it has been, I apologize for bringing it up again!). The electronic journal LIBRES (Library and Information Science Research) 1996 June issue has an article by indexer Glenda Browne, entitled "Indexing: the ideal cottage industry." Find it at http://indigo.lib.lsu.edu/epubs/libres/libre6n1/browne.html It is a good general article on professional indexing and provides a lot of good points for indexers to quote to authors or others who are not sure about what indexers are all about. Thanks, Glenda! ***************************************** Cynthia D. Bertelsen--Indexer cbertel@usit.net http://www.vt.edu:10021/B/bertel/ndx.html ***************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 11:55:03 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: "Julia B. Marshall" Subject: Re: 11th Day of Christmas In-Reply-To: <199612261850.NAA14926@cap1.CapAccess.org> On Thu, 26 Dec 1996 TBrtrm@AOL.COM wrote: > Can someone tell me the lines following: The 11th day of Christmas, My true > love said to me------------------------. Is it 11 pipers piping? Thanks a > lot. > Dear TBrtrm At last a question I can answer! According to the Reader's Digest Merry Christmas Songbook the lines from the twelfth day are On the twelfth day of Christmas my true love gave to me Twelve drummers drumming eleven pipers piping ten lords a-leaping nine ladies dancing eight maids a-milking seven swans a-swimming six geese a-laying five golden rings four calling birds three french hens two turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree. Now I ask you folks should we index this list in chronological order or should we do a letter by letter or word by word sort? Should we include cross-references to drummers, pipers, lords, leaps, ladies, dance etc.? Not to forget including "avian collections" for the last four items. ;-) Happy Holidays Julia Marshall DC Public Library Music and Recreation Division juliam@capaccess.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:56:37 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: LLFEdServ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: we may not be who we seem... (chat) Happy Holidays All! I thought I'd share with you some snippets of the newspaper clipping my parents sent me in my Christmas card about fraud and misrepresentation on the net. This was their subtle (or not so subtle:D) warning to me to be careful about my internet contacts (knowing I subsribe to this list and have a few email friends). The Christmas card read "Season's Greetings. Love, Dad and Mom Re: The enclosed--Don't believe all you read on the 'net.'" You draw your own conclusions. They are either incredibly paranoid and neurotic or they think I'm a blooming idiot. Either way, they are warning me about you!!!!! And, all you fraudulent people out there misrepresenting yourselves as indexers, beware. We are on to you!!!!! ;D ...an online encounter led to long-distance phone conversations. Then it blossomed... After just four months of marriage, the bride is upset and forlorn, because her groom turned out to be...(their ellipses) a woman. ... But online services and the Internet provide a new way for tricksters to ingratiate themselves into the hearts of the lovelorn. (That's why we're all on this list!) E-mail and electronic chat rooms...like any communication form--can become vehicles for manipulation, deception and heartbreak... (from Washington Post) My question to you is... How many of you out there have been deceiving us, giving us incorrect advice, and breaking our hearts? I'm not insensitive, I feel sorry for the victim, but I am hysterical that my parents are warning me, a 35-year-old woman, against you all. They must have secretly attended an ASI conference and know what indexers are like!!! Season's Greetings and don't believe everything you read on the net. Leslie LLF Editorial Services ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 08:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Hazel Blumberg-McKee Subject: Re: we may not be who we seem... (chat) In-Reply-To: <199612280553.AAA11194@polaris.net> On Sat, 28 Dec 1996 LLFEdServ@AOL.COM wrote: > ...an online encounter led to long-distance phone conversations. Then it > blossomed... After just four months of marriage, the bride is upset and > forlorn, because her groom turned out to be...(their ellipses) a woman. ... Now, what I want to know is: Did it take the bride four months to find out that the groom was female? > My question to you is... How many of you out there have been deceiving us, > giving us incorrect advice, and breaking our hearts? Well, actually, I've been deceiving you all. To anyone who's been harboring amorous intentions, I will now 'fess up: I am in reality a large, male Persian cat. Hazel (er, Puff) Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb@polaris.net), Tallahassee, Florida, USA "Cats and monkeys, monkeys and cats--all human life is there." --Henry James (_The Madonna of the Future_) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 13:17:33 -0500 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Don Jones Subject: Re: we may not be who we seem... (chat) Ooooohh you bet! Why pretend to work for NASA or the CIA or be a star on a soap opera when I can lure helpless & clueless men & women to my lair by posing as.... an INDEXER! "The name is Jones..., Don Jones. I belong to ASI and am fluent with the protocols of CMS. I make coy references to Wellisch and put MACREX through the paces daily. Step into my second bedroom and let me show you how I sort!" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:23:07 -0600 Reply-To: Indexer's Discussion Group Sender: Indexer's Discussion Group From: Cheryl Dietsch Subject: Re: Keyword list for categories of knowledge David Heiret wrote: > > Is there something like a keyword list for categories of knowledge? I've been > thinking about the problem of indexing the Net and think such a list would be > useful for supplying a simple standard. > > Perhaps one of our librarian friends has the answer? > > David David, You might want to take a look at the Library of Congress Subject Headings or the Sears list of subject headings (used with the Dewey Decimal System). Most college or university libraries use the Library of Congress headings, so you could probably find the volumes (3 or 4, I can't remember -- it's been a few years since I was in library school) there if you're close to a school. A lot of public libraries use Dewey Decimal system, so that would be a good place to check for the Sears list (and possibly the Library of Congress headings, depending on the size of the library). Or visit the Library of Congress on the Web at http://www.loc.gov/ Hope that helps, Cheryl Dietsch Macmillan Publishing